Podcasts about brink a fresh lens

Are you ready to sell your business? It may be time to pass your family firm to the next generation. What do you do? Where do you begin? How can you ensure that you follow your values and transition your business with purpose, kindness, and profit? Maybe it is time to meet Erika Baez Grimes. What is the Human Side of Business Transitions? In this compelling episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we delve into the human side of business transitions with Erika Baez Grimes, a seasoned business broker, M&A specialist, and purpose-driven entrepreneur. Erika's extensive experience as a Senior Certified Mergers and Acquisitions Professional with Transworld Business Advisors, and as the founder of The BPH Group and The Buyer's Agency, makes her a trusted voice in the industry. Her mission is clear: to help people do good deals with good people—transactions rooted in legacy, emotion, and values, not just numbers. Erika and I first connected at the Entrepreneurs with Companies of Purpose event, and I knew she had a story to share right away. In this episode, she opens up about her journey from helping her grandfather run fashion boutiques in Orlando to rising as a respected voice in the business brokerage industry. Her early exposure to entrepreneurship gave her a lifelong passion for business and sales, a path she blended with her experience in banking and corporate leadership. Some Practical Advice is Essential to Transition your Business Throughout our conversation, Erika offers practical advice—and heartfelt wisdom—for business owners contemplating an exit and aspiring buyers looking to acquire a company. She discusses the "silver tsunami" of baby boomers preparing to retire, legacy businesses' emotional and strategic complexity, and the rising interest among women in acquiring established enterprises. Erika shares three essential things every seller should do before they decide to sell: Start the conversation early—if you're considering selling, it's time to talk. Work yourself out of the business—the more your business can run without you, the higher its value. Keep clean, transparent financials—they are the real story buyers will trust (or not). You might like to watch our podcast on YouTube here: But Erika also goes deeper. She highlights how business owners often feel lost after they exit. Their identity has been deeply tied to their company, and the vacuum that follows can be disorienting. That's why Erika emphasizes the importance of planning for the transaction and the transition. Who will you be when you're no longer the CEO? How Does Culture Share Your Succession Plan? We also explore how culture shapes succession planning, particularly in family firms. Erika works closely with multigenerational businesses and understands the delicate dynamics between personal relationships, employee loyalty, and strategic vision. She emphasizes the importance of finding the right buyer—someone aligned not only with the financials but also with the founder's legacy and values. Avoid Buyers Remorse For buyers, Erika offers clear guidance: prepare before you pursue. Get financing lined up, know your strengths, and approach the opportunity with transparency and intention. Sellers want to know their business will be in good hands. And increasingly, those hands belong to women—smart, driven, and ready to lead. Whether you're a seasoned entrepreneur looking to exit or someone considering buying their first business, Erika's insights are honest, helpful, and deeply human. This episode is a masterclass in purpose-driven dealmaking and the art of helping others transition from one chapter to the next with clarity, care, and confidence. Key Takeaways: Why the timing of a business sale is both emotional and strategic What makes a business attractive to buyers—and how to increase your value How Erika helps bridge the gap between a seller's legacy and a buyer's vision The growing role of women in M&A and business acquisition Why coaching and self-discovery are vital post-exit tools for sellers You'll leave this conversation with a clearer understanding of the M&A process, the questions you should be asking (whether buying or selling), and a renewed appreciation for the human side of business transitions. Contact Erika Baez Grimes:

Imagine a ten-year-old girl in New Zealand watching an army commercial and declaring, "That's what I want to be". This simple declaration set Dr. Ellen Joan Ford on a transformative journey, a journey of leadership, service, and a new way of thinking about work. Her story is not just inspiring, it's a call to action for all of us. Women are asking for flexible work for working parents. Our businesses want the talented women to be able to focus on both their families and their workday. It is a time for changing how businesses treat women. In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Ellen Joan Ford—a leadership expert, military veteran, and the creator of the global #WorkSchoolHours movement. Ellen joins us from New Zealand with a deeply timely and universally relevant message: the structure of work must evolve to meet the real needs of modern families. From the New Zealand Army to Leadership Thought Leader  Ellen's story begins with a decade of service in the New Zealand Army, where she worked as an engineer officer and led soldiers at home and abroad. Her military career taught her discipline, courage, and—most importantly—how to lead. As she transitioned out of the military, she pursued an MBA and later a PhD in leadership, driven not by ambition but by a personal challenge. Her doctoral research focused on the leadership experiences of women in the military, surfacing both empowering stories and persistent gender-based inequities. Rather than stop with research, Ellen took action, advising the Chief of the New Zealand Army and presenting her findings to senior leadership. Her goal? To make the Army more inclusive—not just for women, but for everyone. The Birth of #WorkSchoolHours You will enjoy watching Ellen's podcast on YouTube here: What began as academic research soon became a mission when Ellen was bombarded with personal stories from working parents. Over 500 parents shared their frustrations: being forced out of the workforce due to caregiving, missing irreplaceable moments in their children's lives, or being underpaid for the same responsibilities simply because they worked "part-time." One night, while breastfeeding her youngest son, Ellen had a powerful realization: "I don't want this for me or anyone else." This was the birth of the #WorkSchoolHours movement, a movement that is not just a response to a problem, but a call to action for immediate change. What Is the #WorkSchoolHours Movement? #WorkSchoolHours is not about working less—it's about working smarter. It's a flexible work philosophy that allows employees, especially parents, to align their work schedules with family commitments without compromising performance or pay. Ellen explains, "We live in a world where we're expected to parent like we don't have a job and work like we don't have children. That's not sustainable." Through her model of Belonging, Autonomy, and Purpose (BAP), Ellen offers a new way to lead and manage teams. Inspired by both anthropology and leadership science, BAP emphasizes: Belonging: Creating a work culture that acknowledges employees as whole people. Autonomy: Giving individuals the flexibility to manage their time and deliver results. Purpose: Helping people connect their work to something meaningful. Ellen argues that when leaders focus on these elements, they can reduce burnout, increase productivity, and retain top talent—especially working mothers and caregivers. This not only benefits the employees but also the businesses, as it leads to a more engaged workforce and better business outcomes. Her Book: A Practical Guide to Revolutionizing Work In her new book, #WorkSchoolHours: A Revolution for Parents, Workplaces, and the World, Ellen doesn't just talk about change, she provides a practical roadmap for it. With three powerful sections—what's Wrong, what's Possible, and How to Fix It—this book is more than a manifesto. It's a toolkit for those ready to revolutionize their workplaces. The book includes real-world examples from industries ranging from logistics to healthcare to manufacturing and provides actionable strategies for leaders who want to focus on outcomes rather than hours. Even more exciting? Ellen is giving away her e-book for free on her website, ellenjoanford.com, using the code today. This is just one small way she's walking the talk about accessible change. Why This Matters Now In the U.S., over 50% of the workforce is women, and over 40% of children are born to single mothers. Yet, most workplaces still operate on models developed over a century ago. As artificial intelligence and other technologies transform our professional landscape, isn't it time to rethink the outdated 9-to-5? Dr. Ford's call to action is both compassionate and commercially wise. As she says, "Happy people deliver better results." Her message is clear: when we redesign work around the realities of human life, everyone wins—parents, companies, and communities. Listen, Learn, and Lead Differently If you're a business leader, HR professional, or just someone juggling the demands of work and home, this episode will leave you inspired—and equipped—to take action. As a corporate anthropologist, I believe change happens through small wins. Ellen Ford shows us how powerful those wins can be when rooted in purpose. More to Enjoy 433: Organizations Must Embrace Human-Centric Design 430: How Does Dr. Chris Fuzie Create Great Leaders? What Are You Doing to Adapt in Times of Uncomfortable Change Additional resources for you: My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy and Culture Change Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Connect with me: Website: www.simonassociates.net Email: info@simonassociates.net Books:  Learn more about these books here: Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk!   From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

This podcast is about an amazing woman and her journey from Wall Street to Purpose-Driven Leadership. Meet India Gary-Martin's and listen to her amazing journey to Chair the Women Business Collaborative (WBC). On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I had the great pleasure of speaking with India Gary Martin—an accomplished global executive, entrepreneur, and now the new Chair of the Women Business Collaborative (WBC). India's story is more than a professional journey—it's an inspiring narrative about opportunity, resilience, and leadership rooted in purpose. A Global Journey Rooted in Advocacy India began her career with ambitions far from Wall Street—initially pursuing drama at Spelman College, an all-women's institution that helped shape her lifelong commitment to advancing women. A pivot to business led her to Wall Street, where she spent nearly 25 years rising through the ranks and across borders, holding CEO and CTO roles in major financial institutions. Her global career took her to London, Frankfurt, Tokyo, and Hong Kong, all while raising a family and nurturing a growing passion for justice and equity. Through it all, India remained grounded in one core belief: opportunity emerges when you stay open to change. Her career was not meticulously planned but rather built through taking chances—ones that would later translate into entrepreneurial ventures and global leadership roles. From Banking to Beauty: The Entrepreneurial Chapter India's foray into entrepreneurship was sparked not only by her desire to chart her own path but by a wake-up call. After returning from a business trip, her young daughter barely recognized her. It was a moment of reckoning—and renewal. What followed was a bold leap: the launch of a green nail polish line that grew from two retail shops in London to 300 stores across Europe and the Middle East, including Harvey Nichols and Space NK. But success is never linear. Brexit disrupted the business, scaring off investors and forcing India to shut it down. “It was the hardest thing I've ever done,” she told me, “but I learned how to pivot, and that failure isn't failure—it's just learning.” Her next chapter returned her to her roots in leadership. With Leadership for Execs and Lucent Learning, India created scalable coaching and leadership development platforms for companies, governments, and nonprofits. She also launched Act Three, a community designed to support women in midlife transition. Each venture reflects her holistic vision of leadership: adaptive, inclusive, and deeply human. Carrying Forward a Vision: Honoring Edie Fraser The Women Business Collaborative (WBC), which India now chairs, was founded by the remarkable Edie Fraser, a visionary leader in her own right. Edie had a bold and clear mission: to accelerate progress for women in business by uniting the efforts of organizations, corporations, and individuals under a single collaborative umbrella. She recognized that too many were working in silos—fighting the same battles for equal pay, position, and power. Edie's vision was both simple and powerful: we can go farther, faster, together. Her leadership transformed a concept into a movement, building a platform that now connects over 80 partner organizations, dozens of corporate champions, and countless advocates committed to equity. India Gary Martin steps into this legacy with both reverence and readiness, taking WBC into its next chapter of impact. You will enjoy watching our podcast with India here: Why WBC, Why Now? India's appointment as Chair of the Women Business Collaborative couldn't have come at a more important time. As she told me, “WBC has a tremendous opportunity right now to be a beacon for women in business. It's not just about convening—it's about shaping the future.” With over 80 partner organizations, sponsors, and donors, WBC stands at the forefront of driving change. India brings to it not just experience, but a deeply reflective, philosophical approach to leadership. She believes that collaboration doesn't mean compromising your mission—it means amplifying what unites us. “I don't believe in pushing the boulder uphill,” she said. “We do this with ease because it's who we are. It's how we operate.” Leading by Redesigning the Container One of the most profound insights India shared during our conversation was about the importance of culture in shaping behavior. “People behave as the container creates,” she explained. Rather than focusing on fixing people, she argues, organizations should focus on fixing the environment in which they operate. This anthropological lens is close to my heart. Culture isn't changed with a program or a policy—it's transformed through trust, relationships, and the daily experiences that shape how people feel and behave. As India noted, work has become transactional. We must bring it back to being relational. A Call to Community As we wrapped up our conversation, India left listeners with three powerful takeaways: You are not alone. Find your tribe. WBC is one of them. Opportunity is everywhere. Even the stormiest moments will pass—every storm runs out of rain. We are better together. None of the changes we seek can happen in isolation. Collaboration is not a strategy—it's a necessity. India also shared her excitement for the upcoming Women's Capital Summit in New York City on May 21–22. This event is all about connecting women founders with funders—and building the future of shared success. “Founders and funders, please come out,” she urged. “This is a real moment for us.” Final Thoughts India Gary Martin's story reminds us that the path to leadership isn't always straight—but it is always full of opportunity if we stay open. She embodies the power of living with purpose, leading with vision, and building together. To learn more, listen to the full podcast on On the Brink with Andi Simon and be sure to check out WBC's work and the Women's Capital Summit. Let's go further, faster—together. Other podcasts you will enjoy: 432: Gloria Bohan: From School Teacher to Travel Titan 419: Jennifer Leslie: Transform your Business with Self Awareness 405: How Denielle Finkelstein and Thyme Sullivan Are Revolutionizing Period Care Additional resources for you: My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy Our Medium publications (come friend us) Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon,PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn

How you might ask, did Gloria Bohan transition from being a Schoolteacher to an amazing Travel Titan. Welcome to a special episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, where we spotlight remarkable women entrepreneurs in our series, Wisdom of Women Entrepreneurs with Purpose: Hear Their Voices. I'm thrilled to kick off this journey with Gloria Bohan, a true trailblazer in the travel industry and the visionary founder of Omega World Travel. Starting with Passion, Building with Purpose Gloria's story is nothing short of inspiring. In 1972, she was a schoolteacher with no business experience, let alone a background in travel. She had a passion for cruising and a desire to pay one employee. From those humble beginnings, she built a global travel management company that now books over $1 billion in annual sales. "I didn't have a grand vision," Gloria recalls. "I just wanted to survive. But I kept doing the things I needed to do—and opportunities began to evolve." This unexpected success is a testament to the power of determination and adaptability. Lessons from a Mentor and the Power of Relationships A turning point in Gloria's journey came through mentorship. A seasoned woman in the travel industry took Gloria under her wing, staying with her for six months to train her and guide her through the nuances of the business. "She was so determined," Gloria said, recalling how her mentor—even in a slightly askew gray wig—won customers through grit and charm. "Being around people like her helped me grow into the leader I became." This hands-on mentorship helped Gloria understand that great businesses are built not just on processes but on relationships—both with customers and employees. "People are watching you," she explains. "You must lead by example, be honest with yourself, and stay true to your values." If you want to watch our video, click here: Growing with the Industry, Innovating Through Change Over five decades, Gloria's company has grown by continuously adapting to change—from the deregulation of the airline industry in the late '70s to the rise of PCs and today's digital and post-pandemic travel landscape. "I didn't plan it," she says. "But I kept my eyes open. I stayed curious. When new opportunities came—whether it was bidding on government contracts or adopting emerging tech—I took them." That entrepreneurial spirit remains at the heart of Omega World Travel. Gloria believes that passion must be paired with constant learning and evolution. "No company can just be what they were," she emphasizes. "You must modernize, but never lose the values that made you strong." Success with Significance: Building a Business That Gives Back Gloria champions purpose more than anything. For her, success isn't just about profits—it's about people, community, and creating meaningful impact. Her commitment to a purpose-driven business model is not only inspiring but also a powerful reminder of the potential for businesses to make a positive difference in the world. "We're not in business just to be profitable," she says. "If we don't have buy-in from our people, we don't have purpose." Gloria ensures that her company gives back, from mentoring young talent to participating in community efforts like Junior Achievement and Habitat for Humanity. For instance, we have a program where our employees volunteer at local schools to teach students about the travel industry. Her team gets involved, learns, grows, and contributes—building a culture of purpose that transcends the office. The Entrepreneurial Spirit in All of Us As our conversation ended, Gloria reminded listeners that entrepreneurship isn't just about owning a business—it's a mindset. "Big companies need intrapreneurs," she says. They need people with ideas, creativity, and passion who bring innovation to everything they do. Whether you're starting your own venture or shaping change within a larger organization, Gloria's journey is a masterclass in how purpose and perseverance can take you from the brink to beyond. Final Thoughts Gloria Bohan's story is a beacon for women entrepreneurs and leaders everywhere. It reminds us that significance can—and should—go hand in hand with success. As we continue this series with women like Gloria, we hope their stories help you reframe your own. We hope these stories help you reframe your own. Let's change the story—together. To learn more about Gloria Bohan: Gloria's Profile:linkedin.com/in/gloria-bohan-07773a14 Websites owt.net (Company) owt.net/travelfaxx/ (Blog) facebook.com/omegaworldtravel?ref=search&sid=100000522586195.4089387147..1  Connect with me: Website: www.simonassociates.net Email: info@simonassociates.net Books:  Learn more about them here Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business Women Mean Business On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn        

In this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, I am joined by Dr. Chris Fuzie, Ed. D, leadership expert and author of the thought-provoking new book Liminal Space: Reshaping Leadership and Followership. Together, we explore how leadership is evolving and how traditional distinctions between "leader" and "follower" no longer apply in dynamic, modern organizations. Dr. Fuzie shares insights from his 28-year career in law enforcement and his academic journey in organizational leadership. Dr. Fuzie is a seasoned leader, educator, and consultant with a passion for transforming organizations through innovative leadership practices. He introduces the concept of liminal space—a transformative, in-between zone where individuals often occupy roles of both leader and follower simultaneously. Through engaging storytelling and a practical behavioral framework, he challenges us to think differently about how we lead, how we follow, and how we cultivate organizational cultures of adaptability, accountability, and grace. Whether you're in the C-suite, a middle manager, or just starting your leadership journey, this episode offers fresh and applicable insights to help you navigate fast-changing times. In This Episode, You'll Learn about Leaderology and Liminal Space: What liminal space is and why it matters for today's leaders and followers Why leadership is behavior, not position—and how followership is just as critical How Chris developed his Tessellations of Behavior model for strategic, tactical, and operational alignment The power of clearly defined behaviors like integrity, teachability, and grace in shaping organizational culture How the National Leaderology Association is working to elevate leadership and followership as scientific disciplines Why grace and empathy are essential tools for modern leadership in a world of rapid change and AI integration You will enjoy watching our podcast on YouTube. Other podcasts you will enjoy: 429: Embracing the Future: How Matt Leta is Guiding Companies 428: Al Must Transform Our Communication Strategy. Just Ask Dan Nestle! 427: Empowering Women in STEM: Rashmi Chaturvedi's Journey Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Connect with me: Website: www.simonassociates.net Email: info@simonassociates.net Books: Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business Women Mean Business On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Listen + Subscribe: Available wherever you get your podcasts—Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, YouTube, and more. If you enjoyed this episode, leave a review and share with someone navigating their own leadership journey. Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn      

In this thought-provoking episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we welcome Dan Nestle, a strategic communications expert and AI enthusiast, to explore the transformative role of artificial intelligence in marketing, branding, and storytelling. With over 20 years of corporate and agency experience, Dan has been at the forefront of digital and content innovation, helping businesses adapt to the rapidly evolving communications landscape. As AI tools become more sophisticated, many professionals are left wondering: Will AI replace human creativity? Can AI-generated content be authentic? How can businesses use AI without losing their unique voice? Dan tackles these pressing questions, offering real-world insights into how AI can serve as a powerful assistant—rather than a replacement—for communicators, marketers, and business leaders. During our conversation, Dan shares his fascinating career trajectory, from teaching English in Japan to leading global corporate communications teams. Now, as the founder of Inquisitive Communications, he helps organizations navigate AI's impact on content strategy, storytelling, and audience engagement. He also provides a step-by-step breakdown of the AI tools he uses daily to streamline content creation, repurpose valuable insights, and enhance branding efforts without sacrificing authenticity. We'll discuss the importance of curiosity in embracing new technologies, the fear and hesitation many professionals feel around AI, and why adopting AI-driven workflows can save time, increase efficiency, and improve creativity. Whether you're a seasoned marketer, an entrepreneur, or just starting to explore AI's potential, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help you integrate AI into your communications and branding efforts. Get ready to rethink how you approach content in the age of AI, and learn why being human is still the most valuable differentiator in a tech-driven world. If you prefer to watch the video of our podcast, click here. About Dan Nestle

Welcome to another episode of "Behind the Numbers" with your host Dave Bookbinder. This week, we have the pleasure of chatting with Andi Simon, a pioneering corporate anthropologist, renowned podcaster, and author of "Women Mean Business". Dive into the world of corporate anthropology and discover how Andi aids organizations in navigating transformative changes by understanding the data behind their operations in a new light. During our conversation, Andi shares her fascinating journey from academia to finance and healthcare, ultimately leading to the creation of her own business. With over 23 years of experience, she reveals how companies hire her not just for what she does, but for what they need: to unlock the potential behind data and push beyond the obvious, identifying gaps and opportunities for innovation. Andi explains how anthropologists uniquely explore company dynamics, emphasizing observation and ethnographic methods to gain profound insights. From embedding herself in senior living communities to analyzing healthcare strategies, she discusses her innovative methods of understanding client requirements and enhancing business performance. Additionally, familiarize yourself with Andi's authored works, "On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights" and "Women Mean Business", and gain valuable strategies on how to look at business data from a strategic perspective. Tune in to understand how corporate anthropology can be a game-changer in deciphering complex data landscapes and shaping future business success. About Our Guest: Andi Simon PhD is the founder of Simon Associates Management Consultants LLC (SAMC). She launched SAMC in 2002 to apply anthropology's methods, tools, and theory to businesses in need of change. As a Corporate Anthropologist she helps executives see their companies with more observant eyes, achieve “aha!” moments, allowing them to discover new and profitable opportunities. By applying the concepts, methods, and tools of anthropology to business environments, she turns observation into innovation and revitalizes businesses seeking growth. She is author of two-award winning books: “On the Brink: A fresh lens To Take Your Business to New Heights” and “Rethink: Smashing the Myths of Women in Business.” Andi has co-authored a new book published in September 2023 entitled “Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success”. Her work as a corporate anthropologist has led to clients across the globe delivering both keynotes and conducting workshops. As a trained practitioner of Blue Ocean Strategy and Innovation Games, she has conducted almost five hundred workshops on Blue Ocean Strategy and Culture Change. Dr Simon has also developed and run Leadership Academies for her clients. About the Host: Dave Bookbinder is known as an expert in business valuation and he is the person that business owners and entrepreneurs reach out to when they need to know what their most important assets are worth. Known as a collaborative adviser, Dave has served thousands of client companies of all sizes and industries.  Dave is the author of two #1 best-selling books about the impact of human capital (PEOPLE!) on the valuation of a business enterprise called The NEW ROI: Return On Individuals & The NEW ROI: Going Behind The Numbers.  He's on a mission to change the conversation about how the accounting world recognizes the value of people's contributions to a business enterprise, and to quantify what every CEO on the planet claims: “Our people are this company's most valuable asset.” He's also the host of the highly rated Behind The Numbers business podcast which is enjoyed in more than 100 countries.

On this episode of On the Brink with Andi Simon, we explore the fascinating world of podcasting—its past, present, and potential future. Joining me are two extraordinary guests: Chad Parizman, founder of Adder Communications and a podcast consultant with years of experience helping brands harness the power of audio, and Mark Schaefer, a renowned marketing expert, author, and podcaster. Together, we delve into the transformative role of podcasts in today's rapidly evolving media landscape. Meet our Guests: Mark Schaefer and Chad Parizman Podcasting's Emergence and Growth Podcasting has exploded, with over 4.2 million podcasts worldwide and a steadily growing audience. Chad's journey began at Pfizer, where he introduced podcasting as a tool for internal and external communications. His experience revealed podcasting as a medium with endless possibilities for storytelling, marketing, and engagement. He emphasized that podcasts aren't one-size-fits-all—they can be interview-based, documentary-style, seasonal, or entirely unique. The key, according to Chad, is to let the content dictate the format, not the other way around. Mark's introduction to podcasting stemmed from curiosity and a desire to expand his expertise beyond blogging. His strategy? Start small and sustain joy. “To stand out,” he explains, “you've got to be great and passionate about what you're doing.” Over 13 years, Mark's podcast evolved with rotating co-hosts, reflecting his belief in relevance—matching passion and skills to the needs of the audience. Why Podcasting Works Both guests agree: podcasting is about authenticity, trust, and human connection. Unlike polished social media or video content, podcasts offer a raw and personal experience. As Mark points out, “A podcast is one of the last bastions of truly human, authentic, and trusted content.” Chad adds that technology, including AI tools, is making it easier than ever to focus on creating compelling content while automating time-consuming tasks like editing and research. The Future of Podcasting Relevance and purpose remain at the heart of successful podcasts. As Chad notes, listeners are increasingly drawn to niche content tailored to their interests, often willing to pay for it through subscription services. Mark believes podcasting will remain a critical medium for building authentic relationships, both for individuals and brands. AI also looms large in podcasting's future. While tools like voice synthesis can assist with production, Mark and Chad agree that the human element will always be essential for building trust and emotional connections. Key Takeaways Podcasting's Personal Connection Podcasts thrive on authenticity and human connection. Great podcasts make listeners feel like they're part of a meaningful conversation, not just an audience. Creative Formats for Great Podcasts Break away from traditional weekly interviews. Experiment with formats like solo episodes, seasonal releases, or well-researched documentary-style series. The Future of Podcasts is Niche Listeners are seeking content that resonates deeply with their interests. Building a small but loyal audience is often more impactful than chasing mass appeal. AI Can Enhance Podcasting From editing to show notes, AI tools streamline production, freeing creators to focus on storytelling and delivering value. However, authenticity remains key. Monetization Through Passion and Purpose Podcasts with clear goals and dedicated followings are increasingly supported through subscriptions and direct listener funding. Be top of heart, not just top of mind. Podcasting's Future is Bright With a growing listener base and its unique ability to build trust, podcasting is poised to remain a dominant medium for content creation and marketing. Final Thoughts Podcasting is no longer just a hobby; it's a powerful medium for storytelling, brand building, and connecting with audiences on a deeper level. Whether you're a podcaster, a listener, or considering starting your own show, this episode offers insights into how to thrive in this exciting and ever-changing space. Let us know your thoughts—where do you see podcasting heading next? Other Podcasts you will enjoy include: 407: Shaping the Future: Dr. Emily Springer on Responsible AI in Business  396:Mark Schaefer: The Customer is Changing. How Can We Build a Community Through Marketing? 406: The Greatest Journey of a Woman Entrepreneur in Mental Health: Dr. Barbara Brown's Story Additional resources for you: My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, coauthored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman All of our white papers, particularly those on Blue Ocean Strategy Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Reach out and contact us if you want to see how a little anthropology can help your business grow.  Let's Talk!   From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn    

This podcast for On the Brink with Andi Simon is about how Sue Willoughby helps women over 40 transform their lives using her approach, Equus Coaching.Sue Willoughby is on a mission to help women over 40 tackle their challenges and build better lives. Through her business, Willoughby Coaching, she uses a unique method called Equus Coaching, where clients work with horses to learn more about themselves. These sessions focus on non-verbal communication, leadership, and personal growth, helping women make big changes in their lives. Sue Willoughby's Journey to Equus Coaching has not been Easy Sue's journey hasn't been easy. She grew up with a single parent who struggled with alcoholism. This taught her to be strong and face tough situations, even when she didn't feel confident. Coming out as gay at 17 was another challenge, and by 19, she faced such deep struggles that she attempted suicide. For a while, her life felt like it was spinning out of control. Things turned around in the 1990s when Sue met her partner. They moved across the country, and Sue started to rebuild her life. She went back to school, found a new career, bought a home, and became a real estate investor. During this time, she reconnected with her love for horses, which had always been a source of comfort during tough times. Her Goal is to Guide Other Women Today, Sue uses what she's learned to guide others. Through Equus Coaching, she helps women understand themselves better and overcome what's holding them back. Horses, she says, are amazing teachers because they respond to how we act and feel, even when we don't say a word. Sue also practices what she teaches. She's done all kinds of exciting things, like being a DJ, stand-up comedian, actor, pilot, and Roller Derby referee. These experiences help her connect with her clients, showing them how stepping out of their comfort zones can lead to amazing growth. Now living near Seattle, Sue shares her life with a horse named Moose, two Dachshunds named Benny and Buddy, and a VW Bus she calls Arlo. Her story is proof that it's never too late to make a change and live the life you want. If you prefer to watch our podcast, click here Other Podcasts you will enjoy include: 411: TaRita Johnson Tackling the Challenges of DEI and Belonging 406: The Greatest Journey of a Woman Entrepreneur in Mental Health: Dr. Barbara Brown's Story 414: Ilene Rosenthal: Inspiring a Revolution in Children's Education Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our latest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, coauthored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Reach out and contact us if you want to become a woman entrepreneur with a business that has both great profits and significance.  Let's Talk! From Observation to Innovation, Andi Simon, PhD CEO | Corporate Anthropologist | Author Simonassociates.net Info@simonassociates.net @simonandi LinkedIn  

Hear how Traca Savadogo found a new path to transform her life. Welcome to "On the Brink with Andi Simon," the podcast where we delve into the transformative power of self-discovery and personal growth. I'm your host, Andi Simon, and today, I am thrilled to bring you an inspiring conversation with Traca Savadogo, a renowned relationship strategist who specializes in guiding individuals on their journey to find themselves. In this episode, we'll explore Traca's fascinating journey of self-discovery, a journey that has transformed her from a place of struggle to becoming a beacon of empowerment for contless others. Traca's story is not just about overcoming obstacles; it's about embracing the power within oneself to rewrite the narrative of one's life, a power that can lead to profound transformation and joy. Join us as we listen to Traca's journey of self-discovery. Traca's path to becoming a sought-after relationship strategist was challenging. Like many of us, she experienced doubt, uncertainty, and despair. However, through these experiences, she uncovered a profound truth: the importance of reflecting on one's own story to transform it into one where you are the hero, not the victim. One of the pivotal moments in Traca's journey was her realization of the value of connecting with strangers. As a successful TEDx speaker, she shared her insights on "Why You Should Regularly Talk with Strangers," a topic that resonated deeply with audiences around the world. Through her experiences of stepping outside her comfort zone and engaging with unfamiliar faces, Traca discovered a wealth of wisdom and perspective that enriched her life in ways she never imagined. She had to embrace vulnerability. Should you? During our conversation, Traca opens up about the profound impact of embracing vulnerability and authenticity in her own life. She shares how she embarked on a journey of rediscovering herself, shedding layers of self-doubt and fear to reveal the bold, brave, and ultimately happy woman others saw in her all along. Through her work as a relationship strategist, Traca empowers individuals to navigate the complexities of self-discovery with courage and resilience. She emphasizes the importance of cultivating a deep self-awareness and acceptance, recognizing that true transformation begins from within. As we delve deeper into Traca's story, we uncover invaluable insights and practical strategies for anyone seeking to embark on their journey of self-discovery. From overcoming limiting beliefs to embracing vulnerability and cultivating meaningful connections, Traca offers a wealth of wisdom that will inspire and empower listeners to embrace their journey of personal growth and transformation. Join us as we embark on a transformative journey with Traca Savadogo, exploring the power of self-discovery, resilience, and the profound impact of rewriting your story. This is "On the Brink with Andi Simon," and I'm delighted to have you with us on this incredible journey of growth and possibility. Watch and listen to our conversation here Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants  

Hear how Myrna Soto combined her great people skills with IT and business.  Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon, where we delve deep into the minds of industry leaders who are shaping the future. In this episode, I'm thrilled to bring a remarkable individual who has managed to shape businesses blending her people skills with her high-tech wisdom. Please allow me to introduce you to Myrna Soto. Myrna is Founder and CEO of Apogee Executive Advisors, an advisory firm providing strategic consulting the areas of Technology Risk, Cybersecurity, Technology Integrations, Digital Transformation, and Enterprise Risk Management. Are there lessons you can learn to propel your own success in IT and Business? How can women thrive in the complex world of IT and Business?  Watch our conversation here Myrna Soto is featured in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success How to connect with Myrna You can reach Myrna on LinkedIn or through her website ForgePointCap.com. To learn more about this topic, we recommend these podcasts and blog: Eisha Tierney Armstrong—With The Rise Of AI, Professional Services Are Turning Into Products. Are You Ready?  Lorraine Hariton—How Can You Build A Better Workplace For Women? 10 Tips To Empower Women In Male-Dominated IT Industry Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Esther Aguilera is one of the 102 amazing women leaders in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, In a world where success is often portrayed as a linear path, Esther Aguilera's journey stands out. Born to Mexican immigrants, she defied the odds and rose to significant positions in Washington, in non-profits, and in business. . Her story is a testament to the power of determination, self-belief, and the unwavering pursuit of one's dreams, inspiring us all to embrace our own unique paths to success. Welcome to "On the Brink with Andi Simon," where we delve deep into the stories of remarkable individuals who have defied odds and shattered barriers to carve their path to success. In this episode, we have the privilege of sitting down with Esther Aguilera, a trailblazer whose journey took her first to numerous positions in Washington, D.C., to the helm of the Latino Corporate Directors Association. Her openness to new ventures and a willingness to try unfamiliar leadership roles have not only transformed her life but have also paved the way for countless others. Esther's journey is one defined by resilience and tenacity. Growing up as the daughter of Mexican immigrants, she learned early on the value of hard work and perseverance. However, her unwavering confidence and belief in herself truly set her apart. As you listen to our conversation, consider our thoughts about "imposter syndrome." Throughout her career, Esther grappled with feelings of being an imposter - a notion that she was never fully competent, yet always completely confident. However, this blend of humility and self-assurance propelled her forward, allowing her to navigate the corporate landscape with grace and determination. A profound commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion lies at the heart of Esther's journey. Throughout her career, she has been a tireless advocate for Latino representation, from building diverse teams to expanding the seats held by Latinos in corporate boardrooms, recognizing the immense value that diverse perspectives bring. Under her leadership, the Latino Corporate Directors Association rapidly expanded, becoming the premier resource for Latino talent on corporate boards. Esther's unwavering dedication to championing diversity and inclusion is a powerful reminder of the importance of representation and opportunity for all of us. You will hear a woman who knew that Latinos were not moving into leadership positions, and she would help them open doors and find pathways to change these limitations. Embark on a transformative journey with Esther Aguilera, a leader whose story resonates with us all. Her journey inspires us to embrace our strengths, confront our doubts, and forge our path with unwavering confidence. Through her reflections, insights, and profound wisdom, Esther invites us to challenge the status quo, embrace our authenticity, and dare to dream boldly. Join us as we learn from her experiences and find inspiration for our own journeys. Watch and listen to our conversation here   How to connect with Esther You can reach Esther on LinkedIn Or, email her at estheraguilera@me.com Additional resources for you Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD. Read more about it at http://www.womenmeanbusinessbook.com My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Our book website: www.andisimon.com Read the transcript of our podcast here. (Edited for readability) Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. However, if you're stuck or stalled. Our job is to bring you interesting people. And I have a wonderful woman here today who's going to help you see, feel and think in some new ways because you don't have a story like hers. And she is an extraordinary role model. So how you can overcome life, life's adversities and rise. We're going to talk about a bunch of things that are going to touch you as she has touched me, and I think this is such an exciting time. Esther Aguilera is here with us today, and I am very excited because she is a part of our new book, Women Mean Business. Esther comes to us with the perspective of somebody who has had a journey, and I'm going to have her tell you about it, but let me introduce her. She is currently a senior advisor at Altura Capital. Previously, she was president and CEO of the Latino Corporate Directors Association, and she built the first national network of Latino CEOs, corporate directors and C-level leaders. She oversaw the organization's rapid expansion to become the premier resource for Latino talent primed for the boardroom to accelerate the conversation of Latino inclusion in America's boardrooms. She's a thoughtful, transformational leader, and she's known for driving impact and results. She is a two-time chief executive and a two time executive director, and she comes to us with a 32- year track record, executing strategic business plans and leading high performance teams. And she's going to tell you more. As you know, my desire is for them to tell you about their journey. It gives you a context for understanding the challenges that she's facing and the way she's overcoming them. But she also tells us that she brings a deep experience and understanding of the intersection between the charitable, business and government sectors. And I think this is really exciting. She's worked with members of Congress, cabinet members, corporate CEOs and directors, nonprofits, and associations, and she's just a superb-powerful person. Welcome, Esther. Thank you for being with me today. Esther Aguilera: It is a great pleasure to be with you, Andy. Andi Simon: Tell the listeners and the viewers, who is Esther? You tell me your story. And I think it's a very important one to set the context for your own journey, the challenges you've overcome and how you thrive, and the joy you bring to others in the process. Who's Esther? Esther Aguilera: Thank you for having me. And thank you for the question. So, you know, as you mentioned, I have had the privilege of working for our nation's most powerful leaders from members of Congress, and cabinet members. I've organized meetings with the US President and worked with the top leaders in the nonprofit space, corporate space, and working with corporate directors. But my path was not a typical one. My family moved to the US from Mexico when I was four years old, so I'm an immigrant. We were actually undocumented when we first came. It's a long story, but needless to say, I'm the proud daughter of a landscape laborer and a garment worker. So, we had a very humble upbringing. But we clearly strived to do our best and contribute and get a good education, which is what landed me in college and also, I studied my first public policy. It's not something that growing up, I would have ever seen myself doing. I didn't even know what it was. By the way, when I moved, I moved to Washington, D.C. after college, and my parents didn't really understand what I did, and neither did my family. But here I was in Washington, D.C. We moved here in 1990 right after college. And that's where oh my gosh, so many worlds opened up. So many opportunities and a lot of scary things. I mean, good, scary things, but new things that really opened up all new apertures and experiences and opportunities again, that I enjoy today. Andi Simon: But, when you shared with me your story, you said public policy wasn't something you're familiar with. How did you get to Washington? Esther Aguilera: Well, I was very, very lucky. First I was visiting Washington, D.C., and I had a professor who I contacted and I said, hey, I'm in the nation's capital. And he said, well, you need to meet with some of the premier organizations. And he made some connections for me that I was literally just planning to have some informational meetings and then travel back to California to start looking for a job. And I took the plunge. I had some great meetings. The first organization was a National Council of La Raza, which is the premier today known as Latinos, U.S. and it's a public policy organization. I went for the informational interview, and they offered me a job. And I was just one in shock and thinking, oh my gosh, I'm moving to Washington, D.C. Is that something for me? But you know what? I took the plunge. And this was another great theme that I like to talk about is I've had some different pivots and new areas and new places. And what's been wonderful was really embracing new challenges has been how I have been able to broaden my horizons and find new opportunities. Andi Simon: Yes. Good. But it is interesting because as we think about it, your intention wasn't to come to Washington and get a job. It was to go discover; you were curious. You're an explorer and you really didn't know what the possibilities were. It was an interesting opportunity for you to land something unexpectedly that has turned into a whole career trajectory for you. And I have a hunch several times during your career, things sort of popped in you and you thought that could be interesting. Where did your career go from that first destination? Esther Aguilera: Well, I was lucky to land a job on Capitol Hill. I worked in the US Congress and became the executive director of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. I have had leadership roles since my mid 20s. That's what I love about Capitol Hill is you get great opportunities early and you are contributing a great deal. And so, that came about also with mentors who put my name in the hat and said, hey, I think Esther would be a great candidate for this. When I was already working on the Hill and when they asked me, is this something you're interested in, things went through my mind of doubting. Am I ready for this? That's such a big challenge, such a big role. But I raised my hand and said, yes, I will take on the challenge and contribute everything I've got. Andi Simon: It's interesting because that's one of your five wisdoms. Raise your hand. It puts yourself out there for new opportunities. You don't really know what's happening and what is going to happen to you, but you're comfortable enough in yourself to say, of course I can. I don't know where that is and I don't know how we're going to do it, but somehow I know that I can succeed at some level. What are people expecting? Were they clear about their expectations or they just trusted you to rise to the occasion? Esther Aguilera: With every role and pivot that I've had, and I will go into some of those as well, there's always been one. I already had some great ground training in policy and writing and research. And then I worked as a legislative assistant. So, I had some of the base groundwork. And then you take that and the important thing what I tell young people is don't go into your next role because you meet 100% of the experience and expectations. You look at a job description and you want to have space to grow, but you've got the foundation and you take that and you build on it and that's okay to ask for help. It's okay to feel vulnerable to say hey, I can do 50, 60% of this, and I'm going to need some guidance. I can do the rest with that guidance. And it's important to feel that you can be both honest with yourself and know that you can do it. Don't let that hold you back. Andi Simon:  Well, I couldn't agree more. We can compare career tracks, but it is interesting listening to people talk today about needing mentors or sponsors. I never had any. Did you have them along your journey? Esther Aguilera: Well, when we talk about sponsors, these are people who put your name in the hat for you. And so my professor who first said, hey, I'm going to make this introduction. And then, of course, you step right in., I had a member of Congress put my name in the hat. Another mentor of mine, a male mentor who said this is someone who could take on that role. So I think they saw something in me that I probably wouldn't have raised my hand. So those sponsorships are so important. And then, down the line. Andi Simon: Well, you know, it's interesting because you didn't even go looking for them to sponsor you or mentor you. You just were good at what you were doing and kept showing up, curious, whatever the attributes were that they were looking for. And there you were. And that was really what's exciting about it is that you don't have to be intentionally groveling up that ladder. You can just be really good at what you do. People see it and then offer you something and you say, I can do that. And then you rise. And it's very exciting. Esther Aguilera: I agree, but I also think it's important. There are so many lessons learned on the journeys that I'm an open book and I love to share. And that while sponsorships are important, let's not rely on them and make sure one keeps your resume circulating and raise your hand. And oftentimes, making a transition is really tough sometimes. But keep your eyes and ears open. Keep opportunities open even when you love what you're doing. It's okay. You're not being disrespectful to your current employer.  You are inquisitive and want to grow. I'm in the book Women Mean Business and my wisdoms have been around again and be open to new opportunities, new frontiers because that is how you learn and grow. Andi Simon: So one of the things that you and I talked about was a theme. There are two themes that I want to make sure that we dig into. One is about where Latinos are today. But the one just prior to that is that we mentioned the fact that you were the child of immigrants, and you have led some of the most consequential organizations in the US. Did you bring a particular perspective that was extremely valuable? Were you just a young person coming out of college? How did you blend all of this so that you were you? Because I have a hunch of those who were sponsoring you, mentoring you, saw something unique in how you saw the world. Something that you can share. Is it something you can reflect on? Esther Aguilera: Some of my early areas of motivation were really looking at women and how there were two standards for what women can do versus men. And I saw this growing up, and I always kind of fought against it or thought against it and said, why is there that difference? That was one of the things that just kind of kept me going. But, at the end of the day, I was always very impact oriented. I always wanted to leave a mark and a contribution. We all have superpowers. I've had opportunities after working on Capitol Hill.  I went to work at the Department of Energy, running the procurement office. And in that role, I came in to lead a team of federal employees and gave them real purpose. We reorganized the office and built a high performing team that was very impactful, and mission driven. It was a little lost, but the Secretary of Energy put me in charge and said, I want you to fix this. And it's where I discovered some of my superpowers. I was given that opportunity, I already knew that I could drive change on the legislative front. And I was thinking, how am I going to drive change here? And it's through people and it's through leadership and promoting people for leadership. And in that role, I later went to run a larger group, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute, which is an internship fellowship organization for young people to get experience on Capitol Hill. I had so many doors open to me since with my experience, I wanted to make sure others had that as well. And so this organization, I grew it from $4 million to $10 million. And at every stage just transformed and built an even better, solid foundation for the organization, for the future. There again, it's about building a high performing team and impact. So, I found that my superpower is driving growth and impact. But my secret weapon is building high performing teams where people can contribute. And we find ways of finding where they can excel and contribute and grow to the overall having a clear purpose mission that everyone has a role to play in. Andi Simon: I have several leadership academies I've been running for many years for clients. And one of the things we talk about is that a leader really needs other followers. A leader can't do anything alone. And so, as I'm listening to you, I'm saying you have some magic to empower and enable and engage others so they can rise higher than where they are growing. They don't have to move up a ladder. They need to grow personally in their skills, their confidence that you said it so well, their purpose, their mission to have strong values and to see how their actions are purpose driven and they can actually become part of a team that's delivering extraordinary results. And I have a hunch you had great pleasure when you were doing that, building those teams, and building those people. Right? Esther Aguilera: That really was. That's when you find it's your superpower when you really enjoy doing it. And of course, I had another pivot to then start an organization with corporate directors. And we formed the Latino Corporate Directors Association, and that I was able to start from scratch and grow it tenfold to become the premier organization that really elevates because it's so important to have leadership roles and to have decision making roles and have a seat at the table. Because if you don't have a seat at the table, you don't matter, that's the bottom line. And it's part of important work that I'm really proud of now doing even more after having built a really solid foundation, all of the pillars that lead towards the impact and the team there to then take it on. Andi Simon: Well, all of this then leads to the community. You and I spoke about how the Latino community developed, grown? Where is it going? How do we get access to positions of power and equal pay for Latinas and Latinos?  You've had a wonderful solo career and now you're pulling along lots of others to be able to actually optimize their success as well. Share with us a little of your perspective. What do you see happening? Esther Aguilera: Well, first, this has always been the second largest demographic in the US. For 32 years have been working to advance the Latino community in the US from all angles, from legislative leadership and education across the board. And I have to say that in the 90s, we were called, and even the 80s, The Sleeping Giant because it was a large group, but still was more behind the scenes. And I don't think we have advanced as much as we can, and we need to. That's why I'm such a believer in having Latinas and Latinos in positions of power and authority because you have to have both a bottom up from grassroots kind of building to leadership as well and have those important roles across the board. This has to be in government and whether it's in the private sector, in the largest corporations of the country and so that's an important ingredient. Today, Latinos are 62 million Americans. This is close to 20% of the population and a GDP of nearly 3.5 trillion, which is the same as a fifth largest country. It's massive and yet we're still not in the positions of power, and we're still, especially Latinas, are least paid. In fact, the pay gap is the lowest for Native American women and Latinas. Native American women earn $0.51 to the dollar that men make in the same jobs. And Latinos are $0.54. Other groups come in and that hasn't changed much in the past 20 years. So there's still that huge gap. The boardrooms and corporate boardrooms, Latinos are the single group of any other women's group, any other demographic group with the least amount of board seats and representation in that boardroom, Latinos and Latinos alike. I think that's why my philosophy here is that and this is why we started the Latino Corporate Directors Association that you can't complain about. You can't say, well, it's the search firms is this and we keep hearing we can't find qualified Latinos for the boardroom. You have to point the finger this way and do something about it. So that's why a group of pioneering corporate directors launched it and then brought me on board to build it because we have to be the owners of our destiny. And we can't wait for others to solve these things. Andi Simon: It's easy to complain and it's easier to sort of look at history, but I think you're already beginning to see some small steps to move the needle a little bit. Anything that you can share that is exciting to you? Do you want to share your superpowers with others? Do you see opportunities opening up? You said we're still the sleeping giant. You do have a whole lot of people here in this country ready to do some really exciting things. What are you thinking? Esther Aguilera: Oh my gosh, we have so much talent.  In every sector and every industry, it's about really showcasing and lifting up the talent that's there so that we take away the narrative and excuse. We can find them right there. It's groundbreaking with Latino corporate directors. I'm also advising Alpha, which is the largest Latino professional association in the country. It is the oldest and largest with over 115,000 members around the country. And here is an organization that we already have so much, membership and visibility within the community. But it's about letting others in other communities know, here's where you can find the pipeline and the talent for anything you need, and lifting up and showcasing profiles and taking away again that narrative that there's plenty of talent, there's more to grow. There is potential and talent there. And we're here to help make it easy for you to find it. Andi Simon: You know, I'm thinking about two situations.  When I mentioned to you there was a woman at Washington University, when I spoke there on Women Mean Business, who had gotten a scholarship to a high profile Latino woman who had gone to college, the first from her family. She had gotten a wonderful scholarship to a very high profile private school, and then had gotten into Washington University with a big scholarship and was very lonely. And when we were talking, she said, I'm all alone. And it's very hard to have to be here without a community of others like me who understand the journey I've been on, and I'm not quite sure where I'm going. Am I going back to make money for my family and my community? It was the most profound. And then I gave a talk down in Houston and Arturo Lopez, a Vistage chair that I knew brought in a whole group of Latinos, all of whom are struggling to be heard. And I think that the nature of both media and what we talk about, how we celebrate, where we get the positive superpowers and how we acknowledge it, needs something to boost it. And as you and I were talking about Alpha and others, it's not a bad time to think through how to rally other Latino to help build a network of mentors for others. She said, I don't have a role model. I have no one. I've had no role model through most of my education, and I felt I was amazed at her boldness and her bravery, but I also knew that she was going to have to work hard to find some community to belong to that she could lift herself up. So there's a real need. We're going to rise. We need to have others help us. And I've heard that so often from the folks like yourself in our book, who said, if I rise, I lift others. They basically can't do it without others. That's why I said to who's your sponsor? Who's your mentor? And how do I get help? And they're not even women. They were all guys. And so there's a real need out there. So now with Altura Capital, are you seeing things that are shareable? You're in the private equity world now. Esther Aguilera: Yes. My latest pivot, what's exciting about my pivot to private equity was one in every one of these paths, I have honed in more around my brand, and my brand has been to really lift up others. And the firm that I work with is Latina led, Latina founder, CEO, private equity. Her name is Monica Mantilla. And I always say she's probably the pioneer Latina who was founder, CEO and managing partner of a private equity firm for 18 years.  The way that she invests in companies and again, private equity, you already have to have a profitable company that's going that we can invest in to grow. But, she also has a social impact mission. She invests in low, moderate-income communities that have great businesses and can invest in them to then also create better jobs, better pay, better benefits, and they track that impact. So here we have a firm that's not only creating value for shareholder, for investors and for the company, but also an impact and community. That is my brand. So I always have to feel really strong and passionate about what I'm pushing, what I'm driving, and who I'm working with and for. And so I found each step of the way has always been that for me. I always tell folks, find what are what drives you, what kind of team and environment do you want to be part of, but also how do you help create that team and environment? Because we're all players in it, developing high performing teams. Meaning means that everyone brings something to the table and you want to harness it, and you want to continue to nurture it, to continue to produce even more, because you feel part of that mission and drive of what we're all achieving together. Andi Simon: You're a real multiplier, aren't you? It isn't enough for you to have a job and to do things. It's only really good if I have a team, however big that might be, who also are empowered and engaged to multiply and do more together and better. This is really exciting. Esther Aguilera: But it wasn't always something you and I talked about as well. It wasn't always an easy journey, right? You know, a big part was, I've been thinking a lot about the imposter syndrome and early in my career. Oh, my gosh, I was there really. Two big things to overcome. You know, one here is an immigrant working in the US Capitol, what am I doing here? And someone is going to expose me. I found that, in fact, I don't like the term imposter syndrome. There are two sides to it.  I think most of it is self-inflicted. Let's say as an immigrant, you come here and you're already feeling like an outsider, and you don't always have the resources to really properly show up and build that confidence that you need to step into some new roles, but you have to find it yourself. And so in terms of the imposter syndrome, as I mentioned, there's kind of two sides to it. I think that other people probably see a lot more. When you're feeling that, people see a lot more value and worth and contributions, and you do it yourself. So I see it as an opportunity to turn it around and say, okay, well, what am I bringing to the table and how do I own my own worth and my own contribution? So, the imposter syndrome, you're only diminishing your self-worth. It's about building that up and then building a network and supporters around you that are also going to lift you up. Because we all need that. It's okay to ask for help. You can say, I don't feel good today, but you're always going to have ups and downs. That's part of life. It's not always going to be rosy. Andi Simon: But, as you reflect on your movie, we were talking about how life is a movie and you don't want to end up regretting things.  You have been able to champion gently yourself, slowly through many pivots, and each one adding richness to your life. And you add richness to that. And it isn't as if there's a straight line. I mean, one of the things that I think is so true is the unknown in front of you can become the best experience. I look to your wisdoms and I go, oh my goodness, Esther is a wise woman because that's exactly what we're saying.  It's the unknown. Usually your brain fights it, flees it. Fear fiercely denies it. Appease it. You have an amygdala that would like to hijack it, but instead you've embraced it and you've written a new story for yourself where it's okay, I cannot fail. I just embrace the new and I am going to succeed. Impostor syndrome could be a whole other podcast. I don't think I truly don't believe in it. I do think that people are always a little uncomfortable and it's okay to be uncomfortable. But in fact, the unknown in front of you can become the best experience. And that's right and once you turn lemons into lemonade, let's do it. What's the worst that can happen? Well, it didn't work. So what? And everything you've touched is turned to good, better and best. And so you've got a wonderful career, Esther. If you want to leave the folks with a couple of really cool, actionable things, one, two or three, other than forget your imposter syndrome, we don't need it. What would you share with them based on a beautiful life story? Esther Aguilera:  Well, certainly one, build that board for yourself around you and that group of friends, both peers and a network that you could be there for them. They're there for you, too. Don't be afraid to ask for help or to say, hey, I'm really happy where I am right now, but maybe I should start putting my resume out and privately talking to people about what I should be doing next. Because unless you put your name out there, whether it's for maybe something new or for a boardroom, people aren't going to have you on the top of  their mind always, unless you bring it up or let them know, and that in your own mind kind of helps to put you in a position where you can say, hey, I'm ready for this pivot. And the last is, those pivots could be scary, but at the end of the day, they do open new opportunities. Andi Simon: Yes. And opportunity is exactly what they are. They're not problems. They're all opportunities. And they are in front of you waiting for you to say, I'm cool, let's try it. And that becomes a great, great journey. This has been such fun. Thank you for joining us, our audiences, and Esther shared with us today some really profound opportunities that she has lived through with her superpowers. Esther, if they'd like to reach out to you for talking, experience, consulting, any kind of work with Altura, how could they reach you? Is there a website or is it through LinkedIn? Esther Aguilera: I think the best way is LinkedIn. Esther Aguilera, and I look forward to hearing from individuals. It has been my great pleasure and thank you for inviting me. I'm honored and just really admire your work. Thank you for what you do for us all. Andi Simon: Well, thank you for that kind, kind ending here. Esther and I have truly enjoyed being in Women Mean Business. And I think that the most interesting part of a book is you don't really know where it's going, like life. It takes you along. And that's what's happened here. And every time I open it and I read some things, they're all different. There are 500 of them. They really reflect very different perspectives, but very enriching ones and the energy and the force there. So when you read Esther's, you're going to say, of course the opportunities are here. Who's stopping me except me? And that becomes really important. Let me wrap up for all of you who come to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Thank you. You pushed us into the top 5% of podcasts globally, and I admire that for you because that's your benefit to it. We keep looking for great people that can help us see, feel and think in new ways. Send them along. Your emails are wonderful, and I keep looking for more people like Esther and others who can share with you their life's journey so that you can see how others have tackled the opportunities or the challenges that they faced. Remember, Women Mean Businesses is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local bookseller. So are all my other books there as well. So if we can help you take your observations and turn them into innovations, let us know. It's been a pleasure to share the day with you, Esther. I'll say goodbye and thank you so much. Goodbye, everybody. Esther Aguilera: Bye bye everyone. Thank you. Andi.   WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon, the podcast where we delve into the stories, insights and wisdom of remarkable individuals who are trailblazing paths in the corporate world. I'm thrilled to have you join us today as we embark on a transformative journey with none other than Sandra Quince, an exemplary woman executive whose journey is nothing short of inspiring. Sandra Quince's narrative is a testament to resilience, determination and unwavering commitment to personal and professional growth. With a career spanning decades in the corporate landscape, Sandra has navigated through challenges and shattered glass ceilings and emerged as a beacon of empowerment for women everywhere. In today's episode, we have the privilege of unraveling the layers of Sandra's remarkable journey. From her humble beginnings to her ascent to executive leadership, Sandra's story is a poignant reminder of the power of perseverance and self-belief in the face of adversity. As we delve deeper into Sandra's narrative, we cannot help but be captivated by her profound insights into leadership and inclusivity. Sandra's wisdom transcends traditional notions of authority and is rooted in empathy, compassion, and a deep-seated commitment to fostering inclusivity and acceptance. Throughout our conversation, Sandra imparts invaluable lessons on the art of influence and the importance of cultivating diverse and inclusive cultures within organizations. Her belief in the transformative power of diversity is a guiding light for leaders aspiring to create environments where every voice is heard, valued, and respected. Moreover, Sandra's mantra of "owning your career" is a powerful reminder that in a world where opportunities are abundant yet fiercely competitive, it's imperative to take charge of our own destinies. Sandra's journey is a testament to the fact that when we assert ourselves and take ownership of our paths, we pave the way for success on our own terms. As we navigate the intricacies of Sandra's narrative, it becomes evident that her journey is not merely about personal triumphs but about paving the way for future generations of women leaders. Through her mentorship, advocacy, and unwavering commitment to championing diversity and inclusion, Sandra continues to drive positive change in the corporate landscape. I invite you to join us on this enriching journey as we unravel the tapestry of leadership with Sandra Quince. Her story is a testament to the transformative power of resilience, wisdom, and the unwavering belief in one's ability to shape their destiny. Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here (edited for readability and grammatical correctness): Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I am Andi Simon, your podcast host, and your guide. Remember, my job is to help you get off the brink. I find people who are going to do just that to help you. These words are very intentional: See, feel, and think in new ways so that you can change them. And I often tell people the brain hates me. It doesn't want to change. I'd rather stay where you are, even when you know it's better to be different and do something better. It's challenging for you to learn new techniques and begin to thrive with them. So today, I have a wonderful woman, Sandra Quince, with us. You can see her beautiful smile. I will tell you about her briefly, but she's also part of our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. So I will show you her picture here, which is gorgeous, and she has a beautiful quote. Remember, our book has 102 women with 500 wisdoms to help you start and spark your success. It's a beautiful book.  It's selling like crazy, but her wisdom is compelling. "Be a leader who creates an environment where everyone can bring their best selves and thrive."  Sandra." loves the quote by Mahatma Gandhi. "The greatest of humanity is not in being human, but in being humane ."I share that with you because I've been doing a great deal of podcasting lately, and people say we must become more humane. Corporations have to become more concerned about their employees' and communities' well-being. Culture has to begin to focus on "we," not "I," and I can say those words, but we have to do them.  Let me share Sandra Quince's bio, and then she'll tell you about her journey because it's beautiful. Sandra Quince is the business enablement and leader on loan and loan program executive responsible for leading business operations across workforce development and arts and heritage while also serving as program executive for the Leader on Loan Program, which is for Bank of America.  Prior to this, she was the chief executive officer for Paradigm for Parity through Bank of America's Leader on Loan Program, and she was responsible for leading all elements of Paradigm for Parity, strategic plan, financial, programmatic, and operational performance. She'll tell you more about P4P because it is a huge opportunity for you to understand what it can do and what you can do. She worked with the coalition's co-chairs and board of directors to oversee and execute the organization's vision and growth plans. She's been featured in Essence CEO, World Magazine, Fast Company and interviewed on Fintech, Fintech TV, BBC, and Bloomberg Radio. She's just an outstanding leader in her community, through boards, and through her actions. And what I'm so excited about today is that I've developed a program to help companies change their cultures, not by thinking about diversity, equity, and inclusion as a program, but instead as a mindset, as a way of seeing the opportunities that come from having lots of different ideas, being more innovative, inclusive. And humans love to belong. They don't want to be outliers. They don't want to be necessarily forgotten. So, how do we build that kind of culture at a time when D and I are under a bit of siege? People are wondering why we're doing it. We're doing it because it is transformative for ourselves and our businesses. Sandra, thank you for joining me today. It's an honor and a pleasure. Sandra Quince: Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here with you. And thank you so much for having me on today. Andi Simon: Isn't it fun? I'd love you to tell the listener or the viewer about your journey because it sets the stage for what we'll discuss next. Who is Sandra Quince? Sandra Quince: Yeah, so thank you for that. My journey really started; I have been talking a lot about and reflecting on what makes Sandra who she is or who has had an influence on her. And so it brings me back to my childhood. I am a product of a military father. And so we traveled around a lot. And I think that experience in itself, because you meet so many different people and get a chance to interact with different cultures really helps to build who you are and helps you to see the world through a very different lens. I also think about the lessons that my great-grandmother taught me of being just a really kind and strong woman while being kind and being very cognizant of the fact that you're not better than others. It was part of my lessons growing up: how to be resilient and bounce back from things. She was a powerful woman, and while not formally educated, she was extremely intelligent. But then, it also taught me to stand up for myself, advocate for myself, and speak up for myself. And so that's where I draw that inner strength. When I became the CEO of Paradigm for Parity, that didn't happen by happenstance, right? There were a series of things that led up to that. But earlier in my career, Andrea, one of the things that I didn't understand was that when you put your head down and you're working hard, that wasn't enough. And I showed up to laugh. Andi Simon: I know, I know the feeling well.  Sandra Quince: So you show up. I was a first-generation college student. I was a first-generation corporate. I needed help understanding the rules of the road. And while I had these beautiful life lessons, I wasn't sure how to employ them at that moment. And I came into the workforce thinking, if you just put your head down and do really good work, you will get promoted. And while doing really good work is a part of what we all should do, because that's table stakes, that is not the only path that leads you to promotion. That is just one part of many different things we must consider in the workplace. And so I did learn that I needed to not just do good work, but I also needed to understand what I wanted out of my career. I needed to understand how to advocate for myself, employ the life lessons I learned earlier as a child, and speak up and talk about the good work I was doing. So think about how are you telling your story. How are you telling others about the work you're leading and doing but adding value to your organization and advocating for yourself? And I learned the power of networking and sponsorship. And so all that and part of the wisdom that I shared, and you touched on a little bit as we talked about this session, is really about owning your career. I learned a valuable lesson that I have to focus 100% on my career. Andi Simon: I do love that. And I've been using it. I've been sharing it. My grandkids, even my daughters, because we are all going through life's journey, and people put you in boxes, and they are pleased putting you in that box and thinking that's who you are. I coached a woman who got stuck and stalled in her career not long ago, and I said, you still need to take ownership of it. She said, what does that mean? I said, well, you assumed, like Sandra did, that if I work hard, I'll be noticed, and therefore, I'll get promoted. And you're upset that others you've trained have gotten promoted without any of your experience. It's a recurring theme, particularly for women, but not only for women. Now the question becomes, as you're thinking about that career, somehow you moved into an area that has become honorable in some ways, perhaps by design or by chance, in helping others understand the power of a diverse, equitable, inclusive, and belonging workplace. And I say those words to make them come alive. It's not denied; it's about a diverse, equitable, inclusive, and belonging place for people. It's not a program. It's a place where we love to come to work. Talk a lot to our audience about how one migrates there and then owns it, and then what do we learn from it? Can you share, please? Sandra Quince:  Yeah, absolutely. So, you're absolutely right. Diversity, equity and inclusion is not about a program. It's about creating the right ecosystem for your company and your employees to thrive. And the reason why companies should be engaged in diversity, equity and inclusion is because, number one, you will be more profitable. There are studies that have been around for 30-plus years that prove this point. Companies that engage in this work put the right resources behind it. It's not just lip service. They're 30% to 40% times more profitable. And why are they more profitable? Well, they're more profitable because they create the right ecosystem for their employees to show up and do their best work. So what does that mean? That means that your employees are in an environment where they can give their best and do their best work, which means that creates profitability for the company because they're interacting with them, with the customers and clients in a way that creates, that sells those products or creates that opportunity to engage more customers and more clients and creates opportunities for companies to have more market share. The other thing is, you have more companies and clients because they see that there are people that reflect who they are that they can do business with, and that promotes trust in a brand. And so the third and fourth thing is you're more innovative because you have different voices, different experiences, and different mindsets sitting at a table, and you create the products and services that help your organization thrive. And so that's the reason why companies should be doing it. Yes, it's the right thing to do. Yes, it creates the right opportunities for your employee base. But at the end of the day, I work for an organization that's there to be profitable, and I want that organization to be profitable because that's how I make money as an employee. So, creating an opportunity and engaging around diversity, equity, and inclusion are things you can't afford not to do. And so in this day and age, where, yes, there is a lot of backlash, yes, there there are those out there that are saying that diversity, equity, and inclusion is not what it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, meaning that they feel like it's reverse discrimination or it, it causes division. That has never been the intent, nor is it what real diversity, equity, and inclusion do for organizations. There's a study that came out recently, Andi, that asked thousands of employees and this was just released, I think late last month. They asked them, do you still want your organizations to engage in DNI? And so one would think that that answer would have been a resounding no, based on what you hear out and what you hear the rhetoric today. But 90% of employees said no, absolutely. It is critical to my organization's and my success. Andi Simon: There's additional research that I've been reading like you have, which says that people look for companies that have diversity in leadership. And it's not just that they want to belong. They want to know that it matters to the organization and that they can see pathways to progress and success. And they are consumers. They are no different than your clients or your customers. They're looking for a place where they see curiosity and things where I can belong, and I can share my ideas in a healthy way so that people hear me and I can be strong instead of in a box. I am interested in Paradigm 4 Parity. How did that develop? Because it's a particular approach, and it's amazing. The Bank of America has underwritten it. Please give us some perspective on what it is, how it works, and how people could benefit from it. Sandra Quince: Absolutely. Paradigm 4 Parity is an organization that was created, seven years ago, will be going into our eighth year this year. And it's an organization that was created by women for women. So, these were women who had achieved great things in their organizations. They were CEOs and they were on the back side of their careers. And what they realized when they turned around to look behind them wasn't no other women were coming behind them. There was one other woman in the pipeline, and more importantly, their daughters were entering into the workforce. They realized we have a problem, and we have got to find a way to solve it. So, unlike some of us who sometimes sit on the sidelines and talk about the issues, these women got together and said, we need to do something about this. And so they created Paradigm 4 Parity. Paradigm 4 Parity is dedicated to achieving gender parity at every level of leadership in corporate America with a lens on racial equity. And so these women said, not only do we need to create this organization and invite companies of various sizes to be a part of this coalition and a part of this change that we want to see, we're going to provide them with a roadmap or a five-point action plan, we like to call it, to help these organizations be able to navigate their way to success, to achieving gender parity. And so they did tons of interviews. They took subject matter experts, interviewed the women who had been successful in their careers, and boiled it down to five key actions that organizations need to take in order to see Parity. And what's beautiful about this is when organizations execute on this, you not only have gender parity, but it creates that ecosystem that I talked about earlier, where you're creating an environment where everyone, men, women of all ethnicities can show up and thrive in an environment that becomes equitable and fair for all. And so, yes, while we're dedicated to achieving gender parity, we've provided the blueprint and all the tools and resources to go along with that. We also understand that it's important that we bring everyone along in this journey. And so it creates an equitable environment for all. Andi Simon: You know, you're talking about a significant transformation of the corporate and social aspects because this isn't just inside the company. This is the whole mindset about how we see each other. Humans are quite fascinating because we're status creatures. It's me against my brother and my brother against my cousin. A little anthropology always helps us understand the perspective that we've evolved and survived by comparing ourselves. Gregory Batson has some significant research on the differences. The difference is only because we see the outside differently from us. We know who we are. But now, it becomes a much broader perspective beyond the tribe about the fact that I can be much more extensive and broader. With so many people going through college education and traveling and seeing different things, it's a time for personal and professional growth in our companies. Paradigm 4 Parity: is that something a company buys? Is it something they just understand? How do they get involved with it? Sandra Quince: Absolutely. So, I encourage everyone watching and/or listening to this podcast to go to Paradigm4rparity.org and check out our website. All companies have to decide that this is definitely where we are on this journey, and we want to see Parity within the workplace and workforce. And they can join us. And you will see that we have 150 plus other coalition members that are on this journey with us. Those that are doing great work and have achieved Parity at certain levels in their organizations and those just starting out who are saying, you know, we're new to this. We want to make an impact. And so we have all and everything in between from an organizational perspective. So, join us and take advantage of the five-point action plan, the tools and the resources that we offer, the webinars and seminars that we provide, connecting with others who are like-minded and on this journey with you, and understanding what those leading practices are that are out there that organizations are doing to achieve and sustain parity within their organizations. So it is quite simple, Andi, for people to join us. Andi Simon: How does it feel? I tell people that people decide with their eyes and their heart. And they need to find out what it is. You know, what is it until they see it and feel it and trust that it is, in fact, it's good? And that's how we'll decide to behave differently and act on it. It takes work to change. You're looking for people to change their mindset, their conversations, their microaggressions, the things they don't even know they're doing. And begin to see each other in a different light. Are there some illustrations you can share that aren't proprietary that will help people see it better than just hearing it from you? Sandra Quince: Absolutely. And what you're talking about and describing, especially around our human nature, is the nature around being biased. Unconscious bias. And I know people say they hear that all the time and they wonder, I don't have biases. But the truth is because we're human, we're born with biases. Biases are created every single day. It is not curable.  Andi Simon: It's not. I never thought of biases as being not curable. I like that. Go ahead. Sandra Quince: It's not curable. There's not anything you can take that can cure biases. There are things you can do to mitigate bias and think about when bias becomes dangerous. So think about it. You know, here's a simple illustration. I am a graduate of Florida State University. Me and my husband, we're staunch Seminole fans. And so if you went to the University of Miami, you are automatically the enemy to us, right? Because there is a bias there because we are rival teams. Automatic. There is a thought that pops in your head when that rival is mentioned. That is a bias. It just so happens, though, that particular bias is not necessarily dangerous, right? Because it is fun. It is a sport. But when bias becomes dangerous, you then take that same thought process and apply it to the workplace and don't hire someone because of the way that they look or where they might come from, or the gender, or who they love, or what ethnicity they are. So again, that's when biases become extremely dangerous. And so what we do at Paradigm 4 Parity is we help organizations understand how to mitigate that bias in those very dangerous moments. And those dangerous moments really show up in the employee lifecycle. And so we talk about mitigating bias in the moments that matter. So, the employee lifecycle starts with hiring. Then it moves to onboarding. Then it moves to developing. Then it moves to promoting. Then it moves to managing talent and then it moves to retention. So, these are all of the inflection points where decisions are made. About whether I'm going to be even hired into an organization. Now, how am I onboarded in that organization? Because that makes a difference. Because that is a jumping point for me in how well I perform. And then do I get opportunities to be developed in that organization, which then leads to promotion? And when we think about how we manage talent, so those talent management processes and thinking about pay, thinking about how you rate talent, all of those things become very subjective and biases creep into those processes. And so how do we mitigate those? And then last is retaining who we retain and why and who aren't we retaining and why? And so again, we talk a lot at Paradigm 4 Parity and help our organizations through some of the tools and resources, leading practices, sessions, programs, as well as our webinars and seminars around how are you mitigating this bias in those moments that matter and help organizations think about creating that or that ecosystem where their talent can thrive? Andi Simon: You know, some of this is challenging. So, as a listener or the viewer is reflecting on their own decisions and biases and, remember that musicians, they've tried to make gender-neutral, unbiased decisions about whether to put somebody into their orchestra by having them perform behind a screen so they don't know who they are. You just know what they're producing, what their outcomes are. And we've tried this in a program that I had at Washington University, and we try to have venture capitalists or funders understand who is presenting, not by their nature or who they were or their background, but what the value of the program was that they were looking for funding for. Very little money goes from VCs to women-owned businesses for a reason. It's a woman, much less a woman who's a minority or a person of color. And so it becomes essential for us to get neutralized in some fashion, either by creating an illusion or actually thinking about why I'm deciding this, making it intentional, as opposed to simply an old habit where an old bias creeps in and says, well, I saw that before. Or someone I knew way back when, or they didn't produce well. You'll be amazed how much baggage you carry and how noise in your brain influences your decisions. And you're not free-wheeling it here. You're habit-driven and trying to come up with a better solution. One staff person in the staffing industry said it provides a more diverse pool for the HR folks to evaluate. But, when he provides them, those selecting the candidates don't select them in a neutral environment. As he says, I can send them the right mix, but they just go back to finding people who look like them. That is not good for building better organizations. That's not even good for hiring somebody. This business has evolved. Are you seeing one or two trends being done that are helpful and hopeful? Sandra Quince: You're absolutely right. Let me circle back on the bias piece that you talked about. Because when you think about mitigating those biases in those moments, like you say, creating those illusion of opportunities where you could do blind resumes, you're absolutely right. Because there are things on resumes you don't have to have. What you really need to understand is their credentials. What makes them qualified for it? But then I think also mitigating the bias in those moments that matter can come, like you said, by asking yourself some simple questions. Yes, you think of it like a muscle. You have to constantly work it, or it will revert back to what it was before. So let me say that we're in a very interesting time, Andi, certainly when we think about what's helpful and hopeful. So what's helpful right now? We're in this time where really many companies, especially those that are part of Paradigm for Parity and our coalition, they're doubling down. They're doubling down and they are staying true to who they are as an organization, their mission, their vision and their values. They're doubling down and continuing the good work of creating an equitable, fair workplace for all. And I think what these companies are doing is they're also looking at their language to be sure their language aligns with the outcomes they want to achieve, and making sure that inclusion is at the forefront of everything that they do, which inclusion should be the leading factor. It's inclusion for all. It's also diversity, equity and inclusion for all. And so leading with that is many organizations are taking a step and leading with that inclusion piece and ensuring that if I have programs that are specific for certain people, why do we have these programs? So processes are put in place. And I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning your why. So you can go back and create the right data sets and analytics to help explain why you're on the path you're on, and reconfirming for yourself that this is really the right thing to do. So, for me, that is helpful. And for organizations to go through that exercise and ensure that whatever they're doing, that it matters and that it's creating the right environment that they want to see for their organization. And then putting the data and the analytics behind it. So what's hopeful right? What's hopeful is that 90% that I talked about earlier, Andi, the majority of people want to see a more equitable workplace and they want to see it for everyone. And that is hopeful for me, and especially those that are in the workforce today and those that are entering into the workforce really understanding and working for those organizations. They do their homework and their research, and they will not work for organizations that they can't see themselves there. Andi Simon:  And they know that hope comes from being in a place with a curious, broad perspective because if not, they will be in a box. McKinsey, in February 2023, had their "Women in the Workforce: 2022," in which they spoke about the great breakup. The women were leaving the corporate because they didn't see any hope for advancement. And there was no effort to give them new growth opportunities or even to demonstrate that the work they did mattered. This is a time where women have a choice, and men do as well. I am looking at Gen Zs and wondering and worrying about our guys because women are getting rallied around and the men don't quite know what to rally around. And without belonging to something, they feel a little lost. And it's worrisome. And our kids will look at the adults and wonder about what they will be. So this is a transformative time, Sandra. This has been wonderful. One or two things you want our listeners and viewers to remember, because your conversation has absolutely transfixed me. I'm enjoying every moment. But we do have to end. What would you like them not to forget? Sandra Quince: I don't want them to forget that biases are not curable. And I think as individuals, we need to ensure that we're mitigating our bias. And always ask yourself and be curious who's missing and why? Think about that on your teams when you show up to work. Are you an upstander? When you see something, do you say something? Do you challenge the status quo when you feel like something isn't right? And what solutions are you bringing to the table, and how are you supporting your organization to be better? And I want organizations to understand that there is a lot of work for you to do to ensure you're creating the right ecosystem. How are you engaging and supporting your managers and your people leaders because they lead the majority of your population and they make or break your culture?  Andi Simon: This has been a marvelous half hour. I can keep going. I'm thinking about ways to bring this out to my clients to help them see, feel, and think better because they're looking for it. They're reaching that point where I have one client who finally made three women partners in their firm, and it was with I mean, I've been working with them for six years. It was with great effort and, and it is an interesting time to watch people go through slow transformation. What is that expression, a little a little and off the cliff they go. And I think we're reaching that end where a little was good, but a lot would be greater. Sandra Quince: Absolutely. Andi Simon: For my listeners, I want you to remember one thing, that the words you choose create the world to live in. And Sandra has been saying that in many different ways today. Bias, thinking about whether it's diversity, equity, inclusion, or belonging, those are words, and we live with behaviors. But the words we use create the worlds we live in. So think carefully about what you're thinking and saying what you're hearing because what is said is only sometimes what you hear. And what you hear often is what you think, but not necessarily what was meant. So the complexity of this should not be underestimated. But the opportunity, particularly with Paradigm 4 Parity and its five-step process, is ready for you. So if they want to reach you, Sandra, how can they do that? Sandra Quince: So they can reach me on LinkedIn at Sandra Quince. They can go on our website paradigmforparity.org. We would love to have you peruse our site. And, of course there are all kinds of ways to reach our organization once you join our site. Andi Simon: It's been a pleasure, a privilege, and thank you so much for joining us today. For my listeners and my viewers, we had fun. It's so much fun to explore something, listen to see, feel, and think in new ways, and see how you can change. I'll plug in because Women Mean Business is full of beautiful wisdom that will spark your success. As Sandra was sharing those, I've been repeating that as you rise, lift others with you. It's intentional, and I've worked with women who are CEOs, and they don't have any process for moving others up. They have yet to notice they're building the business but haven't noticed what that means for all others inside. So this is a time to get intentional about it. As you rise, lift others, and you'll find Women Mean Business at womenmeanbusinessbook.com. Amazon would love for you to go and buy it there. So thanks, Sandra. I'm going to say goodbye to everybody. Thanks again for joining us. It's been great. Have a wonderful day. Remember to take your observations and turn them into innovations. Be a little anthropologist. You may enjoy it. Bye-bye now. WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how we can all embrace the notion of productization, not fear it Today I bring to you an exceptional businesswoman and innovator whom I would also call a futurist, Eisha Tierney Armstrong. Eisha specializes in helping B2B companies transform their customized services into more scalable products. In other words, she helps them productize, which is also the title of her best-selling book. She shows businesses how to take a service that is delivered by people and standardize it, usually by automating it with technology. This is not to be feared, she says, but welcomed, because of the many possibilities it enables. Listen and share! Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our discussion: B2B buyers are changing. They're more comfortable buying products, not talking to people, doing all their research on the internet.  The cultural attributes that make you a great professional services firm, like always knowing the answer to a client question, can actually get in the way of productizing. Because if you're productizing and trying to innovate, you don't necessarily know what the right answer is. You have to go out and learn and be open to failure and experimentation and not seeing failure as a bad thing.  One of the cultural attributes that's really important to do this successfully is the ability to learn and be open to change. People get afraid and they think, Am I going to lose my job? Am I still going to have value? How am I going to keep up with all the skills required? Those are very valid, important fears. But the most exciting thing about productization is the potential for growth. You can now grow faster than the rate at which you have to add headcount. You can serve new markets. You can impact more people and that can be very rewarding. We are at the precipice of a massive explosion in growth and if we focus on that, people will be more willing to embrace the change. How to connect with Eisha You can find Eisha on LinkedIn and her website Vecteris. You can also email her at eisha.armstrong@vecteris.com. Want to learn more about preparing your business for the future, now? Check out these: Unlocking New Opportunities: Exploring Blue Ocean Strategy® To Understand Your Future Customers Navigating The Future: The Vital Need For Leadership Training In The Post-Pandemic Era Jennifer Kluge—Meet The Leader To Build Your Business Into One Of The Best And Brightest Byron Reese—How Humans Learned to See the Future, and You Can Too! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. My job is to help you get off the brink. I've been doing this for almost 400 podcasts now, and it's absolutely wonderful that you, our audience, keep enjoying it, sending us ideas about people whom we should interview and really celebrating the fact that you've gotten off the brink, picking up ideas from the people we bring to you to help you do something important for you to change. You need to see, feel, and think in new ways. I always say you take your observations and turn them into innovations, and today is particularly interesting. For that reason, I have Eisha Armstrong here. Jennifer McCollum (who was on this podcast in August of last year) brought her to us and suggested we should have a conversation, particularly about the work she's doing in the B2B world of professional services. But I think it's important for you listening to her to see what she sees out in the market and how that could help you do better for yourself and your business.  Now, I must say, I listen to Amy Webb at SXSW and her video is just wonderful, and I watch it as many years as I can. But she is talking about the fourth industrial revolution coming now, and I would tell you that you cannot wait. It's here. And that question is really important for you and your business. So we'll be weaving that in a little bit today as well. Who is Eisha? Eisha Armstrong is a co-founder and executive chairman of Vecteris. She's dedicated to helping business-to-business companies transform their customized services into more scalable products. Prior to co-founding Vecteris, Eisha held Senior Product Leadership roles at the E.W. Scripps Company and at CEB, now Gartner, the world's largest membership-based corporate performance research and advisory company. She has a best-selling book, Productize: The Ultimate Guide to Turning Professional Services into Scalable Products and her other book is Fearless: How to Transform a Services Culture and Successfully Productize. I think we'll talk about productize today a bit. I'm delighted to have you here. I should thank you for joining me. Eisha Armstrong: Well thank you, Andi, it's a pleasure to be here. Andi Simon: I am delighted you came back from Costa Rica in time for us to have a great conversation, although I have met with someone in Costa Rica for a podcast, so the world is very flat and small. Tell the audience about your own journey because you are at a point now that's very timely and important for them to know about you and about what we're going to talk about and Vecteris today. Who is Eisha Armstrong? Eisha Armstrong: Well, thank you Andi. So I started my career, as you mentioned, at CEB, which was purchased by Gartner about eight years ago. As a data scientist right out of undergrad, of course we didn't call them data scientists at the time, so my title was research analyst. But I was doing research on different corporate performance topics that were specifically focused on data analysis to uncover root causes of corporate performance, and I ended up spending a good 15 years of my career there, working my way up. CEB sponsored me to go to business school, so I was fortunate enough to get my MBA while I was there and that moved me into a very early product management role. And at the time, the company didn't have product managers. So we had to kind of define what that role meant, what that looked like, and learn from people in the software industry about what product management was. And by the time I left, I was leading a portfolio of products. Fast forward to 2018, and I co-founded Vecteris with a former colleague of mine, specifically to help B2B professional services firms learn how to, as you mentioned, the title of my book, productize, which means taking a service that is delivered by people and standardizing it, usually automating it, with some form of technology. Perhaps, delivering it in a more scalable fashion, which tends to improve profit margins. If they're selling, they can usually do that on a more subscription basis, which improves renewable revenue, and makes it easier to run their firms. So we've been focused on that for the last six years,and as you mentioned, I published two books. I have my third one coming out later this year because my passion is really understanding what are the keys to being successful in this type of transformation. So I've focused a lot of my time now on researching that and then publishing those findings. Andi Simon: So clarify for the audience, what professional services firms are. Eisha Armstrong: Oh great question. So it could be anything from a law firm, an accounting firm, management consulting firm, training and development, HR services, engineering and architecture, IT services. But usually where you have professionals who are providing you with their expertise and their time in exchange for money, versus a product company, which is providing a kind of a prepackaged set of features and value, in exchange for money. Andi Simon: And so we're going to take the people part and somehow turn it into something that you can sell that could be accessed without necessarily as much people interface on it. And this has interesting implications both for the company producing it and selling it and those who are buying it and their expectations. So I have a hunch that as you've gone through your six years into Vecteris now, I'm 23 years in business and I've watched many generations of changes come and go. This one is the most exciting for me because I do think it's transformational.  But for a B2B company, my accounting firm client, for example, I've been working with for six years, what could they do to sort of productize something? Is there something you can sort of share with us that you've seen work particularly well? Eisha Armstrong: Yeah. So we talk about productization in terms of different levels. The first level would just be what we call productized services, where they're still delivering value through people. But perhaps the engagement of this accounting firm, let's take an audit for example, is more standardized. So there's a set of templates and tools that their professionals can use to deliver that audit the same way for every client. And perhaps they have different packages. So rather than selling the audit engagement based on time and materials, we're going to charge $500 an hour. They say the audit's going to cost you $50,000 all in. If you want A, B, C type service, if you want to upgrade and get A, B, C plus D, then it's going to cost you $75,000. So they're doing kind of the same set of activities, the same way from client to client. They're able to package it up and price it more on kind of value-based pricing versus time and materials pricing. And there may also be some technology that their professionals are using in the background to help them deliver those engagements more efficiently. And perhaps generative AI is one of those technologies they're using. But most of the interface with the client is still human-to-human. So that's what we call productized services. Then you have more products which are not services. They're not delivered by humans. But, perhaps it's a piece of software that the accounting firm has developed and that they install at their client to help them improve reconciliation between their accounting software and perhaps some type of inventory management system or something like that. And then they're charging that client a monthly fee to license the software that this accounting firm has developed. And that would be an example of a product. So software is an obvious example, but data could also be another example of a product. You know, perhaps the accounting firm has developed some proprietary data set and they want to license it to their clients. That could be a product. It could be an off-the-shelf kind of online training program that their clients go in and access and take online training. So there's no human-to-human involvement in the delivery of it, but you still need humans for relationship development and account management and things like that. Andi Simon: This is so interesting because when you productize it like other Microsoft products, it comes with annual updates and upgrades. I love your monthly fees for service and a support staff that is located maybe in the Philippines. So there's all kinds of ways that you can now optimize the talent you have without simply adding more talent. Correct? And this becomes a mind shift, if I know enough about enough of my professional service firms to know that their minds are about doing what they do now better, maybe cheaper, faster, but not by making it into a product per se, but by simply having more talent. The pandemic gave them the options of having more attorneys who were remote, or more accountants who were remote. That sounded really unthinkable before the pandemic. And now it's quite normal. But, now you're talking about taking what we do and looking at it as a different thing. A product is different from a service. So we can talk about many of these things. One thing that you and I were sharing was that we must change the culture inside the firm and the firms that are using those services. I don't want to lose the opportunity in our conversation to talk about what that means as you move from people and services to a product and sales from a cultural point of view, and I have a hunch you're seeing that. You and I can share some cases, but what are you seeing? Eisha Armstrong: Yeah. Great question. So I think first of all, you have to take a step back and look at this as a fundamental transformation for most organizations. So if you're, let's say a law firm and now you want to also sell software alongside your legal services, this is a significant change because you're not only having to think differently about how you create value, because it's a little bit of a business model transformation, but you're going to need new skills, new technical skills, skills that people are skilled in, lean product development or agile, for example. It's just kind of a different way of operating, and so if you think about your business model transformation, digital transformation, trying to become more innovative, fast-paced, that is a very different culture than a traditional law firm.  And some people may find that very threatening, especially if you're saying, okay, we used to create value based on the expertise in Andi's head. Well, Andi, now we're going to create value based on the intellectual property of the entire firm that has been documented. Andi could deliver it or somebody else could deliver it. Or maybe it's delivered digitally. So we don't even need a person like that who can be very threatening to people who've defined their entire careers based on my expertise is what creates value. And so that's a big change. And I think it's important for organizations to think about that before they embark on a product decision strategy. Andi Simon: Have you seen any illustrative case studies you can share where they've done it well or where it blew up? Eisha Armstrong: Oh, yes. Countless. So one is a management consulting firm that we've worked with now for several years. And they go in and they work with manufacturing companies, industrial companies, and their consultants created an algorithm to help manufacturers batch custom manufacturing jobs and do it in a more productive way. And their senior partners were like, we could turn this algorithm into a piece of software and we could sell it and we could productize it and wow, you know, multiples on software businesses are much larger than multiples on the consulting businesses like this. This is a great idea. And we're like, yes, there's a great need. There was nobody else in the market doing this. They had the skill set. But let's think about the culture change and what's going to be required. So what they ultimately decided to do was to set it up as a separate organization and so they kind of insulated it from the primary consulting business. It had its own dedicated team that was fully funded full time working on this, this software product, not off the side of their desk.  They had different performance measures. They had a different name in the marketplace. So they weren't using the name of the parent company to really distinguish that this is not just kind of a different way of delivering value, but it's also a different culture. Yeah. And they've been quite successful operating this as kind of a separate business that still has the benefit of the strength of the balance sheet of the consulting firm, the client relationships where they're able to feed them leads. They're recognizing that it's a significant difference in cultures and operating them as two separate businesses. So that would be a great success story. Andi Simon: It is brilliant. But on their part, they understood that an artwork and a draft don't necessarily come out with something better. This was different and needed a whole different model for it to be successful. That is a brilliant company with amazing leadership to understand that. So often we work a lot on observation to innovation, a lot of innovation that never gets out of the starting gate, mostly because they try to add it on to their current staff whose minds are in a whole different place. You know, people say, what's culture? I say, it's what you do every day and believe it's the way we should do it. Let's not get too sophisticated here. But for those who are doing the service part, it is what we do every day. And for those who are developing the product, it has nothing to do with what we do every day. And unless you understand that you cannot succeed in prioritizing your services without a different way of doing that.  Eisha Armstrong: Absolutely. Yes.  Andi Simon: Now, with that in mind, as you're talking, I'm saying, okay, now how are they creating these products and are they eliminating the service part or are they just rapid fast forward using, I don't know, generative AI. What do you see happening on the productization part? Eisha Armstrong: So we see a couple of different what we call archetypes. So the first one is, we are going to develop products that are bundled in with our services. I mentioned perhaps there's a piece of software that's installed alongside some consulting work that might be done and that's sold as a kind of a single solution to a client.  Say, you have this problem. For example, you want to improve your ability to attract highly skilled talent. You need some consultants to come in and understand what type of skills you need. What might be preventing the organization right now from attracting that talent? But you might also need some compensation benchmarking data and you might need that to be updated monthly, and so it's a mix of the kind of data technology that is delivering value. And so we call that kind of the bundled solutions approach to productization. And I think it's actually, Andi, a brilliant move for a lot of professional services firms because it leverages their existing competitive advantage, which is their service professionals and the existing relationships that they have with clients. So they're bundling those products along with that. The other option might be like this management consulting firm that decided to kind of run it as a separate business because what they found is that the manufacturers that were interested in the software product were actually different from the manufacturers that they worked with on their consulting engagements. So it was an entirely new market. And that also fed into their decision to run it as a separate business because it really didn't make sense to bundle the two, given they were separate markets who were interested in the services versus interested in the software product. And then the third archetype is where you decide you're going to fully sunset being a services business, and you're going to transform to be a 100% products business that is less common. And when we do see it, it's usually with younger professional services firms who start offering professional services. They uncover a great need that they can meet with a product and aren't yet at the level of maturity where it doesn't make sense to sunset the services business. They can kind of eat that cost and transform and become a full products business. So those are the three different archetypes that we see. Andi Simon: So let me repeat them back. The first one bundles it, and the second one is segregated, and the third one is young and can see opportunities and aren't so wedded to the way we've always done it here that they can reinvent themselves. Eisha Armstrong: Correct. Yes. Andi Simon: And I love to summarize what you've said, because for the listener, Eisha has said some very important things. There isn't a single way that you can take what you do. So don't look at it as a thing. Begin to think about it. And I think it's very important outside in, it isn't. What you do is what a customer does and which customer wants or needs for this manufacturing service provider. Some of their customers probably are older and are much more set in their ways and are happy to talk to people. And younger may be very unhappy talking to people. I had one logistics company and their salespeople couldn't get the people they used to talk to to answer the phone. They were still doing calls. And when I interviewed the folks who they thought would be their buyers, they had retired. And the new folks who had come in were all 30 somethings who said to me very quietly, we don't use the phone. And I say that because the point is that times are changing fast, and the people in the times, they are changing fast and so assume nothing. You're in a startup mode. It's a whole new time for reinvention. Both of them have an understanding of what the new clients need because they're younger too, in many cases. You know, let's stop being angry about the fact that Gen Z is the largest workforce. And let's figure out how to work with them to change it. Now, what's interesting from just the lifespan of some of these products, they're startups in many ways now. Are they aggressively now elevating them to the next stage, or are they so happy they got a product? I was curious about how people see things. Got it, got the product. Now what? What do you see? Eisha Armstrong: So let's say we're working with a company who's noticing the same changes that you're talking about. B2B buyers are changing. You know, they're more comfortable buying products, not talking to people, doing all their research on the internet. They are more comfortable buying things on a subscription basis. Plus, they also see shifts in the competitive landscape. You have digital first startups who are saying this, solving the same problem that services companies used to solve. Plus, you have generative AI. Lots of things are changing and your labor force is getting more expensive. Wouldn't it be nice if you could grow and not have to add headcount at the same rate? So all of these things might lead a business leader to want to productize. And the first thing we talk about is, okay, this is a different way of thinking. Usually what you want is a portfolio, just like if you were a venture capitalist, because some of your product ideas are going to be home runs and some are going to be stinkers, and you don't really know right now which idea is going to be which. You may have some assumptions and hypotheses that we can go out and test and validate, but you don't have a crystal ball that's going to give you the answer. So let's think about this as a portfolio. What are some quick one things that are lower investment? Perhaps you've already validated because a couple of clients have asked for this and even helped pay for some of the R&D. They are really easy to bundle with your existing services or serve your existing clients. And then what are some of these moonshot ideas where there's perhaps more investment required over time, but perhaps much more value and potential. And what are some steps that we can start to take today to test and research and validate some of your hypotheses about those moonshot ideas. And then let's come back either monthly or quarterly, and look at the performance of this portfolio of product ideas and see how it's doing. Are our assumptions correct? If so, add a little bit more investment, just like a venture capitalist would. Or did we invalidate some of our hypotheses and realize that some of these great ideas are actually stinkers and we need to stop investing in them, sunset them, and put our efforts elsewhere. Andi Simon: I laugh listening to you because that requires a completely different mindset that detaches you from the products themselves. They aren't about you. I once taught at Washington University a course for entrepreneurs, and I brought in some entrepreneurs and they left some lasting things in my head. And one guy said, Well, I built three businesses. Some worked, some didn't. It requires a detached relationship with that product, because it isn't that you didn't have a good idea. Some work, some don't. So what? Move on. Right. But you need to have an open mind about what is working and be wise enough to know how to redirect investment as if you're your own investor as opposed to the runner of the business. And that changes the whole relationship. Even with each other and with a client and that's a maturity that could come in youth, but it requires a different sense of what this product is and how it operates. And what do I mean to it? And how am I almost like a business school case study as opposed to a real life thing? Does that make sense? Eisha Armstrong: It does. Absolutely. It's really interesting, Andi, because we talk to professional services firms, leaders, and say, look, the cultural attributes that make you a great professional services firm, like always knowing the answer to a client question, can actually get in the way of productizing. Because if you're productizing and trying to innovate, you don't necessarily know what the right answer is. You have to go out and learn and be open to failure and kind of experimentation and not seeing failure as a bad thing. So you've got this on the one hand, a cultural attribute of knowing that has made you a great professional services firm is now going to get in the way of learning and experimenting.  Andi Simon: And I'll put a pitch in for, again, an anthropologist to go out to those clients while you're introducing these things and observe. You have no idea how many times I work with clients who have launched products and assume they know how their customers are using them, and then I go, and I often love to take them with me, because if I see and they don't, they won't believe me. So I take them along and I say, Be an anthropologist, just hang out, watch. And they get shocked by the fact that this wonderfully complex thing that their engineers over-engineered isn't being used at all the way they thought, and they usually see one little piece of it so that it serves their purpose as opposed to the overarching complex services that they have productized without calling it that. But this is what they did. And it is interesting to me how we cannot see the world through our own eyes. You kind of look backwards. You know what's going on with the customer who think they gave you a good question to answer, and you answer that question, but it was the wrong question. It really had nothing to do with what they really needed. And I often find that particularly when the question has come down through a company and a more junior person has come to find a solution, only to realize they didn't really know what the question was that was being asked way up the line. And as a result, they come back with an answer that doesn't match. It's the old telephone game. It is so interesting. So you are in a moment of watching these companies potentially transform themselves, not quite putting the services sector out of business, but transforming the whole business. This is really cool stuff. We have a few more minutes, and I want to just talk briefly about the training and skill development. Are you finding them beginning to understand that they have to rethink the training and skill development of their teams? Eisha Armstrong: Oh, absolutely. I mentioned, for example, one of the cultural attributes that's really important to do this successfully is the ability to learn. So one of the skill sets that you could look for are people who have kind of a hypothesis-based research background: could be from hard sciences, social sciences, but people who are used to developing hypotheses, testing them and being somewhat removed in terms of the outcome. So they're dispassionate about that and try to put on their scientist hat as the great organizational psychologist Adam Grant calls it and be open to changing their mind. So that's one that's very important. Another one is, the ability to do what we call: think from a market segment standpoint. So market-minded, because professional services companies have been thinking very 1:1. What does Andi Simon need? Okay. I'm going to go and deliver exactly what she needs. Now you're thinking about, what is a market segment that is similar to Andi Simon. What does this entire market segment need and how can we deliver something of value that meets maybe 80% of their needs, but not 100% of their needs? And that's a very different way of thinking. Usually people who've done market research, you mentioned ethnographic research, people perhaps who have a finance background, can think about market segments, attractive market segments, market needs, things like that. And then the third one, which we can't forget, is digital literacy. And I say the word literacy very deliberately because often we think, oh, we need to go out and hire software engineers. And I'm like, no, that's digital fluency. I just want everyone in the organization to be digitally literate. Knowing kind of what are the tools out there and how could we use these in our day to day work would be digital literacy. And it's really shocking how many organizations we get brought into, Andi, where the leadership team is saying, we're going to make these investments in technology, we're going to productize, and there are people on the leadership team who have very, very low digital literacy. So they're not modeling that behavior for the rest of the organization. Andi Simon: The rest of the organization says, okay, you show me first and then I'll change, because change is literally pain. You know, we specialize in helping organizations and the people inside them change. And one thing the listeners should remember is your brain hates me. It hates to think about something in a new way. It doesn't like the energy it needs to learn something. The oldest reptilian part of the brain, the amygdala, hijacks it. It says, go away. I'm going to hate you. I'm going to flee you. I'm going to fight you. I'm going to appease you, but I'm not going to change. And that's just the way your brain works. It's there to protect you from all this foreign stuff coming at you called digital literacy. But it is a time where you probably should rethink your thinking and change your mindset. This has been such fun. You should give the audience 1 or 2 or 3 things you don't want them to forget, because they often remember the ending better than the beginning. And we've had a nice beginning and I've enjoyed our conversation. A couple of things you want them to remember. Eisha Armstrong: I think the biggest one, and you just brought it up, is that when we start talking about things like generative AI, the fourth industrial revolution, perhaps reducing the amount of services and delivering products, people get afraid and they think about, Am I going to lose my job? Am I still going to have value? How am I going to keep up with all the skills required? And yes, those are very valid, important fears to talk about. But the most exciting thing about all of this is the potential for growth. I mean, imagine again, if you're a B2B professional services firm, you can now grow faster than the rate at which you have to add headcount. You can serve new markets. You can impact more people and that can be very rewarding, not only from a financial standpoint, but also just from the personal reward that you get out of your work every day. And so the one thing that I try to stress with the executives that I work with is, let's talk about the opportunity rather than the change required. You know, yes, there is going to be change required, but that makes people afraid. And instead, let's paint that vision and talk about the growth opportunity. How can jobs become more rewarding? How can we serve more people? That's what I truly believe. We are at the precipice of just a massive explosion in growth and if we talk about that, I think people will be more willing to embrace the change. Andi Simon: I hope so. I know you're a research person by background. Have you started to collect the number of services firms that have productized? Is there any Gartner research that says, hey, guys, you know, of all of those, I don't know why percent have already started to productize. You're running late in the process. Any idea? Eisha Armstrong: Yeah, it's nine out of ten, so 90%. And again, that could be very early productized services where they're standardizing tech-enabled delivery of their services. But it's still kind of looks and feels the same way to the client all the way up to creating new separate software businesses. But yeah, nine out of ten organizations. And yeah, if you're not doing it yet, you are massively behind.  Andi Simon: I'm laughing. And that doesn't matter whether you're an attorney or management consulting firm, anything that is people-based is ready to be rethought. Not that the people are wrong or bad, but that the solutions to the problems are not going to necessarily be delivered by you and I talking about it. And I'm not going to say maybe I could have done this, but I was kidding around with my physician the other day and I said, your portal is so good. One day I'll just have it take a picture of my body and I'll tell me how my vital signs are. And he said, that's not so far away. And I said, it's not. Everything's going to be productized. It's very exciting. Well, this has been such fun. I should thank you. Where can they reach you? What's your website? Eisha Armstrong: It's Vecteris.com. And I love to connect with people on LinkedIn, so feel free to also connect with me on LinkedIn: Eisha.Armstrong. Andi Simon: It's been a pleasure. And thank you. And thank you, Jennifer McCollum, for introducing us. And I think we should do a follow up in six months to see what we have seen and what's working well, and you'll have your third book out and I'd love to celebrate with you. It's very cool stuff for our listeners and our viewers. Thank you for coming. As you know, we like to take observation and turn it into innovation. And as an anthropologist, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. If you have not spent a day in the life of your customer, it's time, because they may be prioritizing already, leaving you behind in the process, but you don't really know what they're thinking until you go and just hang out. They say, what does an anthropologist do? We hang out and we listen to the things that you can't see because they can't even tell you what they're doing. So watch them and begin to think about what that means for you. My books are all on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, the topic for this podcast, has won awards and been a bestseller, and people show it to me on the beach, wherever they're reading about how anthropology can help their business grow. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is about 11 women who did just that. And our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, all of whom have simply said, of course they can and have done extremely well, and their wisdoms are very wise for all of you men and women. And we've developed a program, we've productized the book into a program to help corporations and CEOs begin to think about how to harness the wisdom of women to optimize their business. And as an anthropologist, I was reading Gregory Beaton's work about how everything is the opposite. You know who you are by what you're not. And so maybe we should start seeing the benefits of difference as opposed to worrying about being identical. And I couldn't agree more. It's time for rethinking what we're trying to do with the talent that we have. It's been great fun. Thank you all for coming. I'm going to say goodbye to Eisha Armstrong. Thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure. Goodbye, everybody. Come again. See you now. Bye bye.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how to answer the question: Why should your customers care? I always say, in my coaching or our leadership academies or my workshops, the more ideas you have, the more likely you will have big ones. And they come at the intersections. Big ideas are actually already in your head waiting for those a-ha moments where you might say, Wow, I'm onto something. My podcast guest today can help you do just that. Fran Biderman-Gross is going to help you see yourself through a fresh lens, feel differently about what you're doing and why, and think about how to make some changes. We know that change is painful and we don't always like it, but often it's necessary to get where we want to go. Listen, learn, and share. Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from today: Buyers are informed. They have access to information in record speed and record time. Informed buyers need a reason to believe. Then you must make the emotional connection to why your product matters to them. Today, purchases have to be meaningful. People crave emotional connection. It is no different with services and products. Consumers are demanding it. They are voting with their dollars and demanding it. Why is the world a better place with what you are offering your customers? You fundamentally must understand who your customers are and what they want, what matters to them. How to connect with Fran You can reach out to Fran on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and her website Advantages.net. You can also email her at getnoticed@advantages.net. and check out her book: How to Lead a Values-Based Professional Services Firm: 3 Keys to Unlock Purpose and Profit Want a deeper dive into how to market for success? We recommend these as a starting point:  Mark Schaefer—Are You Ready For The Marketing Rebellion? Patrick Van Gorder—Ready For The Right Data-Driven Digital Marketing Strategy To Expand Your Business? Melissa Copeland—Want Your Business To Be Successful? Start With A Great Customer Experience Aviva Ajmera—First Get That Great Strategy. Then Tackle How To Get It Done! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your podcast host, and as you know, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. I go looking for interesting people who are going to help me do that. Today is a day when we're all on the brink. We don't know if we're going to soar or fall, but the ladder is there for us to climb. But sometimes we need new ideas. We need to fill our head. Remember, the more ideas you have, the more likely you will have big ones. And they come at the intersections. So as you listen to our podcast, things are going to come your way and you're going to say, That's a big idea. It's actually sitting in your head waiting for it to happen, but I'm happy to share. So I have a wonderful woman here today to help you do just that. She's going to help you see yourself through a fresh lens, feel differently about what you're doing and why, and think about how to make some changes because change is painful and we don't always like it. Fran Biderman-Gross is our guest today. A little bit about Fran. She is here smiling at you, and she is going to smile through her whole time together because she is just a very happy, wonderful woman with lots to share with you. Fran Biderman-Gross is the founder and CEO of Advantages, an award winning branding and marketing agency and among The Fortune 500 Best Places for Entrepreneurs. I'm going to let her tell you exactly what that is. The Advantages team leads clients on a journey of brand discovery that reveals personal and organizational purpose, values, and story. And Fran is just full of ideas for us today. She also is a podcast host for Drive Profit with Purpose, where she speaks with business leaders about the importance of purpose. And, you know, purpose-driven organizations are doing better than those without a purpose. And she's co-author of How to Lead a Values-Based Professional Services Firm: 3 Keys to Unlock Purpose and Profit, which I have a hunch is hers and could be yours. So this is a book focused on the leverage of three keys of purpose, values, and story so that you can grow and scale profitably and make a difference. Fran, thank you for joining me today. Fran Biderman-Gross: Thank you for having me today. What a meaningful intro. What a great way to set up somebody's mindset in how they should receive every single episode. I'm very grateful to be here. Thank you. Andi Simon: Well, and we are as well because your ideas are fresh. And I haven't had anyone who's a marketing maven in a long time and there's a push now to rethink what we do in the world of communications, storytelling, marketing, whatever those words now mean in a world where it's not a newspaper ad or even what do you do with a press release? It's really sort of like, what are we doing? But tell the listener about who is Fran. Let's really set the stage around your own journey because it sets the context for what you're doing and how you're helping your clients and your staff. Please, Fran. Fran Biderman-Gross: So what can I tell you that's interesting about Fran? I'm a very curious, purposeful, intentional, resourceful human who really loves people. I say that because it's true. While I can be labeled an eternal optimist, just ask my team, I'm always looking for the good in everything. Innately, I really appreciate when others are in that spotlight moment and they're shining, or they set a goal and they accomplish it. I'm really there with them, enjoying not only the journey, but reveling in the success of whatever that is. And while that might seem broad, I've definitely chosen my path in helping others really stand out and understand how they build emotional connections with the people who give them the most fulfillment. So, getting clear on what I call the three keys: your purpose, your values, and your story and the way that you tell it, and there's just so much that's so complicated when we talk about branding and marketing that I just wanted to make it simple but not easy. So it's simple to understand that the concept of a minimum viable brand is very much based on what you believe in, why you exist in the world, and how you bring that to the organization you lead. And if we could just get clear on that, it's simple, just not easy to articulate. It sets such a strong foundation for everything that you're going to do. So in terms of me, I'm just on this journey to help as many people as I can, which is really why the book came about. And, you know, I have a limited, finite amount of time and hours that I could teach a workshop, teach or speak or work with clients. So the book and the podcast are an extension of me having those great conversations so that people can further think about what their purpose, value, and story are, what their three keys are, and how to have tips and tricks to apply it to unravel this mystery of marketing. And what is branding and why is it important? And all of those complicated questions. Andi Simon: The question: you didn't just jump in and know those things. Were there some catalytic moments that took what you were doing and gave it in moments? Well, when you go whoosh and you go, that's what it's about. Is there something you might be able to share? Fran Biderman-Gross: I think there's a couple of light bulb moments, if you will. I think the first time I met Simon Sinek was back in 2004, when he had just discovered the Golden Circle, maybe it was 2003. He had spoken to the entrepreneurs' organization we were at, a little marketing gathering, talking to strategists, colleagues, if you will. And I was really intrigued. And they had asked us to bring some of our best design work, and I did, and I got there early and I placed it on the corner of the table. I was hoping I would stand out and get his attention. Everybody always likes to be called out by the teacher and given some accolades. Who would ever not want that? And I placed this incredibly, very proud, designed piece of collateral on the corner of the table. And wouldn't you know, it caught his eye and he lifted it up in the middle of his chat and he said, This is beautifully designed and it's great quality, and it looks like everybody else and it sounds like everybody else. And I'm like, how do I leave? You just embarrassed me in front of about 80 to 100 people. I'm like the Marketing Maven in there. I'm like the printing princess, the girl who gets everybody noticed. And my stuff is like everybody else, does he know me? So at first I was embarrassed and sunk in my chair. I literally sunk in my chair and I wanted to leave, but I resisted that urge. It desperately took every ounce of fight in me to do that. I waited in line to kind of really unpack what he meant, because I really needed to get over myself and try to learn from something. And then he just set me off on a path of, this is beautifully designed, but how does it speak to me and how does it create a connection versus what you're selling and what you're advertising on this piece? And how do I actually use it as a tool to build, to create, to activate curiosity or to spark a connection in that way? And that set off a very deep relationship for a very long time, although I dug my heels in and didn't want to join.  But I really wanted to further develop the concept of understanding how we start with Why. Hence we got the three keys, which became the technique and the approach that we approach every person, whether you're a solopreneur, to do personal branding and take that into an organization. And how do I work in an M&A structure and how do I bring people together and how do I help serial entrepreneurs own multiple businesses because they really have one vision in multiple missions. And how does that stack, how do they shift their story point, as I would describe it, to serve them, whether they're in front of you VC raising money or fundraising in a nonprofit or looking for more customers to get into the funnel or further down the funnel. And it has really become evident that many may not disagree and many, I hope, don't. I don't know what I just said, but I hope they don't disagree. And I'm happy to welcome the conversations if they do. But people innately develop relationships with people they like, they trust, and have a connection with somewhere, and they feel it. And that's a biological thing. And how do we resolve that? And that has really been my quest: to resolve how your brain thinks but can't speak, and help you give it the word so it validates the feeling. And to me, that's marketing and branding all in one. And that's the job I have to do so that we build relationships with different nonprofits, with our donors, with our volunteers, with the people we serve from professional services or products and goods. So the level of the cost of the sale might influence if it's a bigger ticket. We have to think more. If it's a smaller ticket, we think less. But we build relationships with brands who stand for something that somehow are relatable to us. And even if we don't stop to think about it, when you do, you'll realize that you're developing a fan, a brand fan, as I would say, or an advocate for certain brands because of not only the product, but why they exist in the world where it is sometimes a little hard to find that connection. Andi Simon: It is interesting as I work with organizations, so we're corporate anthropologists, as I often share a little bit during our podcast, and we specialize in helping organizations change. Sometimes they want to and sometimes they hate to because the brain hates to change. It has an idea and a story in it, and that story is your illusion of everyday life. And you get up every day and you live that story whether it's true or not. There's no truth. What's interesting in what you're saying is that you then also surround yourself with things. And those things are a reflection of that illusionary story about who you are. You're always the hero in your story. You're always successful in the story. The problem is, there are always others outside of you, and whether it's you alone, or you as part of a club or a group, humans are herd animals and we like to belong. So with humans, you've got this wonderful opportunity to help them feel better, make their story stronger, especially in times that are fast changing. I don't know how many people have said, “I'll never use AI.” I said, “Well, it's already all over you, you know? You can't do anything without it.” “Quite frankly, I'll never use ChatGPT.” I love ChatGPT, but why do you deny the future? Because it is all around you. It's just not widely distributed yet. And that's asking people to help us rethink the work we're doing with our products and services. And I'm going to let you talk a little bit about how you now help companies and their products and services to rethink their purpose, maybe to retain their values and also to begin to think about that story and storytelling when the world that they're talking to is so fragmented. There are 250 million people with 250 million stories and channels to articulate on. And I don't know whether TikTok is good or not, but as my book came out, somebody I knew said, are you going to be on TikTok? There are as many people creating on TikTok as there are watching it. The world is wild, my friend. How do you help them go through the changes? Maybe there's a case study you can share, or if not, just help the audience think through the new because it's ready, willing and able to help you transform what you're doing for a new world. Your thoughts? Fran Biderman-Gross: So that is a jam-packed question. Andi Simon: Deliberately, I know. Fran Biderman-Gross: And a good one. The way that I'm going to begin to shape that answer is that in 2024, what you knew before doesn't really apply. But here's a lesson that I can say. Well, first let me explain what I mean. Buyers are informed. They have access to information in record speed and record time that we cannot argue, arguably the fastest, and will continue to get faster as we choose how we consume our media or our information. So I'm just going to use information for now, because there's a lot of things that we want to know on a daily basis, starting with the weather and the top news and what's going on with our clients. And we want bytes of information. So the buyers are informed. They have access to data and facts with a click of an Enter button. You ask a question and you will get an answer. Might not be accurate, but that doesn't matter. We won't debate that, but they have access to information, so there's no more dog and pony show. The dog and pony show is, Here I am. I can't beat my chest and go, “I'm louder and better stand out.” It has to be authentically who you are and why you exist. Why? Because in the last 15 years, I've had the honor of working and taking over my co-author's lifelong work that we had started working on together. I have literally proven that people are the complete reason why businesses who merge succeed. I digress back to the question. Informed buyers need a reason to believe. They need to make them. When they have that reason to believe, they then must make the emotional connection to why it matters to them. This is a fundamental change in the way that we communicate and are raising our children to communicate. It has to be meaningful. We used to talk about buying stuff, and I'll use this as a little bit of a team and family, you know, share. We used to buy things for each other and now we've learned, come the holidays and birthdays and celebratory days, it's not the stuff, it's the time and experience. They want to share things. They want to create memories to do things. Matter of fact, just before this, you were talking about the two weeks that you and your family secretly at the end of June get together. People crave emotional connection. It is no different with services and products. That's right. And they are demanding it. They are voting with their dollars and demanding it. So who's telling a better story? But it's not the better story, it's the meaningful story. How you uncover why you do what you do, why the world is a better place with your organization, is vital to communicate, to be able to attract the buyer the way the buyers buy. They demand to make an emotional connection even if they don't say it. They vote with their dollars. And if you really got into a focus group with them and trust me, we have done many, many of these, especially in the last couple of years, you really get the insights of the culmination of data that I'm telling you. People are buying emotionally, they are emotionally triggered. And the brands who are acting out and taking a stand… You've seen them. You've seen these examples. You've seen it with Nike. You have seen it with Ben and Jerry's, with our ice cream. And you have seen these organizations take a stand and you've seen good PR and bad PR and you've seen outrage and you've seen validation because there's something for everyone. There isn't just one thing for everyone. So how do you, audience members or listener, differentiate yourself in that way? Simple. Not easy. But here's the one thing that I can tell. You can't skip a step. Because when you skip a step, it doesn't work. We have learned time and time again, with client after client, when we rush through building a foundational brand. I'll just leave it as, when we skip the foundational steps, we miss something. We miss the opportunity to connect with the buyer. We miss the opportunity to understand the buyer. We miss the opportunity to understand where the buyer is, what the buyer is searching for. So we talk about marketing and attracting these things. But at the same time, let's put that all aside. We need to understand who you are and what they want, what matters to them. If you build your journey and you skip a step and you're missing information, it is just another reason for them to leave the funnel and not to go further. You know, I personally would rather attract, let's just say I was looking for an applicant. I had a new job position. I personally would much prefer, matter of fact, this was another moment. It's funny where my mind went here. I was at a networking event and it was all about recruitment and retention. This was a big hot button. How do we do that? Well, they opened this roundtable discussion and they're like, oh, well, our advertisement attracted 85 qualified people. But we got like 300 resumes. And when it got to my turn, I said, Who has time to look at 85 resumes? I'm hoping that only 12 people apply so that I can get further, deeper down into whether you are a good fit. Are you in the right place in your life, career, journey to be in this company, in this position, in this culture? Will you affect positive change? And that spun the conversation in a completely different way. Wait a minute, how do you just get 12 applicants? Then I went through the, Hey, it's dating. I'm not trying to sell you who we are, I'm actually trying to figure out who you are. And are you at the right stage with the right skills and the balance to fit this nucleus of an agency, of a family that we are. And are you the right fit? We can always train for skill, but at the same time, they need certain levels of skills, sometimes more advanced skills. And we just got into a whole discussion of, This is broken: writing an advertisement to sell your position is broken. And you know what? You're seeing it. Look what's going on with talent in the last three years. I mean, in my industry, the senior talent is either being laid off or exiting because they choose not to have a life like that anymore. They want remote work. They want freedom and flexibility. They want to affect positive change, not the way we did before. Work has changed, buyers have changed. Recruiting has changed. Is it a good fit? Are you at the right place in your career for this juncture? And it's just unbelievable. Andi Simon: I didn't mean to interrupt you. I want to follow your thoughts. As our listeners are thinking about their own, both their own journeys as well as those of their business and the products they're selling, I'd like to create a metaphor here, because what you're saying is that the people who work inside and the people who are our clients and their clients are really in a system, an ecosystem, and your staff can only do good jobs if the folks who you're working with align with the basic three value, you know, purpose, values, and story approach you have. But their clients have to be in alignment as well. So there's a long alignment thought, a visual, in my head. They often say that the words we use create the worlds that we live in. Humans are meaning makers. And so you're sharing with the audience the meaning that you give to both work and to the work you do in a very interesting and important way. It's not a job; you're part of this whole process that's aligning with the folks who we serve, to align with their folks. The thing that I'd like you to reflect on a little bit is, how do your clients get to know their clients better, whether it's a customer, if it's B2B, how do they serve them better? I've done enough focus groups in my life to never really want to do another one, but I'm an anthropologist and I love to observe and hang out and say, what do you do? My job is to listen to the conversations without judging them, and also without asking the people who are conversing, What does this really mean without listening to the stories they tell? Storytelling is actually the very best way to capture the reality that they're living. But how do you help your clients and your team better understand this changing world of buyers out there, and the channels with which they find solutions to whatever that problem is? Is that too big a question again, or is that something. Fran Biderman-Gross: It actually isn't. I start with, you can't skip a step. Everybody has the courage to take a step back and look at the journey. It starts with insight because ultimately, what matters to our clients is that we understand their clients. Agreed? Andi Simon: Agreed. Fran Biderman-Gross: Great. So I've got two sets of clients I'm serving. I can't serve one without the other. And in almost every case, almost every case, when clients come to us, they think they understand their clients. And we go through a process. To get to the right. I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just saying we don't have the data to understand whether that is proof positive or reactive. That points me on the right journey when I think about the age old questions of, how do I hire an agency? Why do I need an agency? I start with helping me understand your business and where is it going? Because you're clear, your business objective dictates the marketing strategy and then resulting in the tactics we take. So when you think about what that is, I can't skip the brand component because it starts with who are you? What do you stand for? Why do you exist? How is the world with a better place with you in it? And at the other end of that is, why should my customers care? Give me a reason to believe or I go somewhere else.  And there's a lot of space between my hands right now. And if I had a bigger screen, I would give you more space. But you have to really not skip a step. So you have to get clear here. First, phase one: discovery, understanding your position and all the things I just listed. We could talk about the three keys. That is what I call the minimum viable brand. I like MVP things. Products and brands. So I've taken that and said, how can we make this affordable because everybody listening is going oh, redoing a brand. It takes six months and tons of money and six figures and I'm like, no it doesn't. No it doesn't. It doesn't. We've created a process inside of about 10 to 12 weeks, maybe slightly longer depending on scheduling. We can rectify this. We don't necessarily have to just create a gap analysis. We can actually create the analysis and fix things. So we actually have an actionable place to start. So in that discovery, of course, we're going to do all the things that you think about, right? The competitive analysis is aspirational, actually. What do my customers really want? What do I stand for? That gives me insights into what I call a brand foundation with your MVP. And the way I describe it is, like your brand is built on two layers. First the verbal, we get the verbal right? We can go to the visual and we can create translation so that the brain understands that there is a connection between them, the visual and the verbal. And then we put a good layer in there called a brand idea. What's the big idea or the zip code as we call it? What does that mean? That's how I begin to make a connection and start to put that in the world. And we go to unlock the second phase, usually three, sometimes four months, could be six if we need more data. It's always about data. Take about a couple of weeks to get whatever the campaign is up and running in real time. I don't have to do massive, big focus groups that take a long time anymore. I can just literally go into the market and start to see how people react to messaging. Andi Simon: That's true. Fran Biderman-Gross: In fact, I can even add a step. And do you know, I could probably spend three weeks doing message testing, literally message testing. If you are this type of demographic, how do you react to these things? And we can learn before we actually go to market. So three months is not a long time when you think of the longevity of your organization. Don't you want to get an audience message, audience message fit? Then you've got a strong brand that people are reacting to that have the criteria of your clients or like your clients. So then when you go into the market, you can begin to go, oh, can I talk to you, to my funnel? Can I direct you to my funnel? How do we nurture you? Where do sales come in? Everybody gets on the phone and goes, could you take over my LinkedIn? I need to get sales there. Could you help me explore TikTok because that's where I could sell direct now. And that's not the answer. The answer is, let's help me understand your business. The tactical solution has to be a result of a strategic decision that will then add value to the business. Andi Simon: You know, I always watch our time because a half hour or so is good for our listeners, but I don't want to cut us off yet. I have a couple of things to add to your wonderful understanding of how to build a business in this modern world that we're in. We were HubSpot partners for a number of years, and we really do love inbound marketing, and inbound marketing makes the assumption that it is less about what you're pushing out and a lot about what people are searching for. Google has created a whole new marketplace, and it isn't putting it on a shelf in a store. It's more, what are the words you're using to find a solution to something, to a problem. We come up on the first page of Google, thank you very much, because of the content marketing of a corporate anthropologist, a Blue Ocean Strategy expert. I can't compete with the book, but I can be an expert. I can do culture change in New York. I can do all kinds of words that get people to come and hire us, or at least find us and want to know more about us. That is a very neat way of understanding that. But it's going to go even faster and farther because the content is going to have to be relevant and change. And it isn't the channel of LinkedIn or Facebook or the website. I still like the website, I like the others, but I really love what search can do for you., but it means that we have to go backwards, outside in, instead of just inside out. Your thoughts, Fran. Fran Biderman-Gross: You need data to do that, right? The proof is in the data because design is always subjective. And what has happened today, again my opinion, people can disagree. Andi Simon: I agree, but they can disagree. Fran Biderman-Gross: Yeah, agencies are so fragmented and specialized that if you know you are searching for just a Google AdWords specialist, you should hire them. But what are you giving them to work on? Is that proven in a data point? Otherwise you are chasing an unproven theory. Andi Simon: Yeah. Fran Biderman-Gross: And yes, I caution the audience, listeners out there who have several different agencies who are employed right now and probably doing great work. The question is, is it the best work? Is it the work that actually is strategically tied to adding value to the company? I feel like I spend a lot of time talking about this because many don't realize how much is buried in a marketing budget that's actually allocated across a channel. That shouldn't necessarily be. And some things should be. So like, right-sizing all of that and then trying to understand the return on investment. I think this is really the bug for me. When you look at very large agencies and very large companies, they have spreadsheet after spreadsheet and depth and depth and depth. They understand their acquisition costs, their lead generation costs. They understand all of these things. And it's a behemoth of effort to put together, to be able to actually get that. But I really believe that small- to medium-sized companies deserve to do marketing right. And that's the agency model that I have brought to this market for those who understand and want to do strategic marketing. I have an all-in-one solution. So there's no finger pointing. We didn't get the return. Why? Oh, the odd word guy. Oh the content person. Oh, this. Oh, that. It's not that. We have to put it all together under the umbrella and under that you start with the business objective, the marketing strategic plan with the tactical execution. If that execution on that budget doesn't add value, you shouldn't do it, myself included. You shouldn't do it. Hope I answered the question. I got off on a tangent, but there's so much wrong with things today. And we think, as business owners, myself included, we think we're experts at everything and we're not. Everything is so much more confusing these days. Andi Simon: But let's pause because I would rather us pause here, perhaps have you come back in a short time and take the conversation to the next stage, because I think that the times are fast changing. I was reading about Lenovo putting AI into their PCs to better know you, so that they can manage your virtual assistant and know when your calendar is. It would say, “Good morning, it's time for you to get up, and these are the three things you're going to do today.” Oh my goodness. I do think, though, that the listeners as well as us who are in the industry of helping, you're helping companies develop their business, build them, build your staff, so they have purpose. It is not inconsequential. It is very meaningful. And humans are meaning makers. We decide with our eyes and our heart, not our head. The head sort of justifies it. When you understand the human being, then all of what Fran has been saying today takes on a, What do you do with it? You know, I get it. I understand humans. Now, what do I do to build a business that will thrive in fast changing times? And I'll tell you, it's a good time to pause, step back and think about that question. What is it you are doing? Is it more of the same? Maybe cheaper? Are you beginning to really understand the data about your clients and your customers and where they're going? I find this all the time that my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, about which this podcast was named, was about seven of our clients who had gotten stuck or stalled, and they didn't see what was right in front of them. And I must tell you, whether it's a focus group or it's an anthropologist, it's a mindset on the client side to say, oh, that's what you're seeing. Because if they don't see it, it has no meaning at all. I can't tell you how many times I bring back what I saw. And they say, well, that's not true. I said, okay, come look with me. And then they go and they hang out and they listen and they say, oh, that's what you heard. I said, yes, but that's what they're saying. And so it's a time to rethink how you think about your business and how you're running it. And Fran is giving you some really good insights today. Why don't you tell a little bit more about the Advantages company so that we don't leave the audience thinking, oh, how do I find her? And what do I do if I need her? Tell me about your company. Fran Biderman-Gross: Absolutely. I'd be happy to: Advantages.net is how you can find us. I'll throw that into the chat. And we are a purpose-driven agency that does marketing so that you can focus on the things that you are meant to focus on. What does that mean? It means that we're an agency, a strategic-driven agency that has all the capability or a hybrid of capability to work with the vendors. You have to ensure that we bring value to the budget that is spent, so that is meaningful to the business. Now, technically we're strategists. We're designers or writers. We're directors. And everything in between. So that what you see on the inside matches what you see on the outside. Andi Simon: But your purpose is how to assemble those tactical and practical things into a strategy to help our clients. These are the same words that we use: see, feel and think in new ways so they can grow. And I think it is very exciting to share what you do and how you do it, because it is a way of lifting us up off the brink. If you want to soar, then maybe you need to rethink the way you're telling your story, even what it is, and how you're beginning to push it out. So let's wrap up. Fran's information will be, of course, on the podcast blog that we put on SimonAssociates.net. You can find it there and we push it out when it comes out. But it's been an absolute pleasure to have an opportunity to share with you what Fran Biderman-Gross does and what advantages her company can offer if you're thinking about how to rethink your own company and where it's going and how to get there. I'm going to wrap with a little push on my new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. It's a great book. It's got 500+ wisdoms of 102 women, each of whom wants to elevate and celebrate women in business. And what's so exciting about it is that people turn a page and change their lives. And I know that sounds interesting, but we actually had a woman write about it on LinkedIn: “I was starting 2024 and I was reading the book, and it inspired me to rethink my year.” And I had a client who was a wonderful client, and she had yellow marked the whole book, and she said, “Wow, I'm going to change the way I'm running my business.” How can a book do that? Simple and easy. It's a wonderful way to do it. You can find Women Mean Business on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or your local bookseller. And don't forget to look at the website WomenMeanBusinessBook.Com to tell you more about the authors, the origin of the book, the 500 wisdoms, and the 102 wonderful people inside. So thank you, Fran, for being with us today. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, all of you who come and send us great ideas and bring us wonderful people to share and share the website and the podcast so we can all share our wisdom. We love to help others grow. Bye bye now. Have a wonderful day. Remember my wisdom: Take your observations, turn them into innovations, and boy what you can see. Bye bye now.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

She was absolutely determined to succeed. Hear how you can be too! I always want to bring interesting people to On the Brink with Andi Simon. You will love this interview with Maryles Casto. Her journey has been extraordinary, largely because of her ability to listen carefully, understand people's needs, and create solutions that are part of her personal style and amazing business savvy. Thanks to an unquenchable can-do attitude and sheer hard work, Maryles made her travel agency the go-to travel company in Silicon Valley, serving the biggest names in tech and beyond. Listen to her story, get inspired, and please share. Watch and listen to our conversation here About Maryles: “Asian hospitality with Yankee business sense” Born in the Philippines, Maryles Casto is a pioneering travel industry executive and entrepreneur with 47 years of experience founding and leading companies to profitability. A former Philippine Airlines flight attendant, Casto created and helmed Silicon Valley-based Casto Travel, the West Coast's largest privately owned travel management agency. (Casto Travel was frequently ranked among the Top 100 Fastest Growing Businesses in Silicon Valley and San Francisco, and ranked second in revenues among Silicon Valley women-owned businesses by Silicon Valley Business Journal in 2006.) In 2019, she sold the company to Flight Centre Travel Group of Australia. She is also the founder and owner of Casto Travel Philippines, Inc., as well as chairwoman and CEO of MVC Solutions, which provides travel industry businesses with back-office support, accounting and other services. Maryles has served on many business, civic and philanthropic boards, including the Commonwealth Club of California. She has been International Chair of the Committee of 200, an invitation-only group for the world's most successful entrepreneurs, and she is a founding member of the Northern California branch of the International Women's Forum. You can connect with Maryles on LinkedIn and her website, or email her at maryles.casto@castotravel.ph. Key takeaways from our interview: Business is all about anticipating the client's needs. If you can't believe in what you or your company is, how can you go out and sell? It's not what you do. It's what the clients are asking for. “There is a hole in the cloud, and whatever I do, I always have a hole in the cloud to get out.” It's time for us to be kind to each other. More stories of women who dreamed big and achieved success in business:  Debra Clary—Yes, You Can Become The Curious Leader You Were Meant To Be! Roseann and Clara Sunwoo—How Did Roseann And Clara Sunwoo Build A Successful Women's Fashion Brand? Gemma Toner—An Exciting Woman Took A Moment Of Inspiration To Transform Other Women Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: We're giggling. But welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm here to help you see, feel and think in new ways. My job is to get you off the brink, and our podcasts are here to bring people to you whom you might not know or meet people who have stories to share that are going to help you change your story. Now remember, every time you hear someone's story, your own brain begins to shift things around until you go, oh, I can do that! Or wow, what a great idea. And so the whole idea of a podcast, whether you visualize it and see it or you listen to it, is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can soar. And that's why I bring wonderful people here, and people bring wonderful people to me. To be here today is just going to start out a little bit different. The co-author of our book, Edie Frazier, who is on the bottom of our screen here, she and I wrote Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And it's been quite a journey. And as Maryles Casto, who's come to us through Edie has said, is that turning a page and changing your life is really amazing. But that's what we wanted to do. And I wanted Edie to introduce Maryles to you, because she's very important in her own life. And then Maryles will talk about her own journey so that you can learn from it, because there's wisdom here that is going to be difficult to get from reading her bio or looking at her great website. So this is an opportunity for us to share. And in sharing, we can all grow together. Edie, thank you for joining us. Please, I can introduce Maryles Casto when you're done more formally, but this is so special for you. Please tell us about your experiences with Maryles Casto and why it makes you smile so.   Edie Frazier: A joy to say thank you to a dear friend, Maryles Casto, because we go years without talking to each other. But when we get together and reminisce, we think of the qualities of a leader, a true trailblazer, and the best of friends. You know, Maryles wrote her book A Hole In The Clouds: From Flight Attendant to Silicon Valley CEO. And she did it. And she built this major travel business where she was the icon, and she knew all the founders in Silicon Valley who trusted her, respected her, and built with her. And she built that business across the US and world and runs the business now in the Philippines from her home there. But she gives joy and support, and she's the best you can find and firm of that word trust and respect and caring and she lives a legacy. So Maryles, I just want to say thank you for the friendship and know your spirit is in each of us who have gotten to know you, adore you, and we've got years ahead to salute one another. But I just say to Maryles Casto, you are the true blue of the hole in the sky.  Andi Simon: Oh. Maryles Casto: I love you, too. Andi Simon: Edie, that's beautiful. Maryles, do you want to respond to Edie before she takes off?  Maryles Casto: That's what friends are for is our song. Keep smiling and that's what friends are for. And, Edie, I just want you to know, can I plug this? This is my book.  Andi Simon: Yes, of course.  Maryles Casto: That's for you. And I want to talk about why this cover. We can talk about it later because it's natural. It happened. And the world needs to read that book on the sky and the hole in the sky. We love you, buddy.  Andi Simon: This is such a wonderful way to introduce you. And maybe we will start almost with the book for a moment. But for my listeners, you know, before we jump in, I just want to give you a little context. Maryles Casto was born in the Philippines and lives in the United States and has for most of her life. She's a successful leader. But when you hear her story, she really is an explorer. And there's something about the way she has tackled her life and built something really special that's so important to share. But here's a quote that I think captures it. And remember, I'm an explorer. Sometimes I'm a philosopher or a futurist. But Maryles, listen, I care a great deal because we've been to 37 countries, not to the Philippines yet, but this is the way we discover. I've yet to see a problem where the best solution is to hide or be ignorant. It's only through contact with other cultures and peoples, and in their contact with us, that we can hope to bridge the divide between people of the world. As an anthropologist, my job is to help people see and feel and think in new ways through a fresh lens. And today, that's just what we're going to do. So I'm not going to read your bio, but I'm going to ask you to talk to our audience about your own journey. You started in the Philippines. You came here. You capture it much better than I could ever. And then what we'll do is, we'll sort of migrate into the lessons learned, the things that you, the wisdoms, you want others to understand. The kind of sharing person that you are and the kind of glorious life that you've lived. Maryles, please. Who's Maryles and how is this book been sort of this triumph of what's happened? Because we'll come back to your book.  Maryles Casto: Okay. So let me tell you a story. I was born in the Philippines, and I was raised on a sugar plantation. So that was my background with my family and I think my inspiration really comes from my mother because she was always so kind and because we were privileged. My friends were all the workers, the children of the workers. So I developed a kind of relationship where there was no class basis for me. I mean, everybody is the same. And so I really valued that. But also, my father was my closest friend. And I learned a lot from my father as well. And my father was very competitive. I remember one time, and this was when I was growing up in the Philippines, we have a fair every year, and so I was entered as one of the contestants. I wanted to be the queen. I wanted to win. It really started about wanting to win. We arranged it. There were three candidates. And the big dinner that night, it was a gala dinner, and they were contributing money in the ballot box. And I was watching my father, and I was competing with the Chinese woman. The father was very wealthy, and the father kept putting some money into the ballot box and my father was doing nothing and I thought, doesn't he realize I need to win. But what I did not realize, and this is my father's competition. You never let the competition know what you're doing. But he had already positioned somebody who was standing very close to the ballot box. And at the very last minute, maybe a minute before it closed, he drops this whole bundle of money. That's when I became the queen.  Andi Simon: Uh, that was not deception, but that was smart.  Maryles Casto: Smart because he knew that he had to do it this way. And so I learned that, and that I was one of my first lessons in my business. I can be very open, but also never give, you know, everything that you can in the competition. I never liked schooI because I always wanted to be outside. I get very bored, especially when they tell you to do number one, number two, number three. And all I could think about is, why not do number ten? What do we have to go through this whole process of developing? And I also couldn't pay attention. I didn't realize at that time that my world was outside and I was very mischievous. And I remembered one time when they were trying, it was a Catholic school run by the nuns who were very strict. Of course, the rebel in me already said, I don't like to lose. I don't like this, and I don't like you in a way. I was in class and I was doing something mischievous. And anyway, I was reported. And so they punished me. They punished me by walking around with this garbage can on my head. And so what did I do? I went into the classrooms and then I started dancing. So they didn't know what to do with me. But I created the whole fiesta. So I was already learning through all these things that I was doing, and I think I applied a lot of that in my business world because I never saw the challenges. I always just went. And I thought that, you know, I'm going to try it.  So I was in the Philippines. I ended up being a flight stewardess, and at the time, being a flight stewardess was the top of the field because when you were traveling, you were entertaining. And I learned so much when you were a flight attendant at that time. It took two months to train. You had to learn about the client's needs. It was very much anticipating the client's needs. A passenger came on board. That was your responsibility to make sure that they remembered what the flight was about. And you remembered everything about the passenger. So I was very focused on the passenger's relationship and how they felt. I was in the Philippines a long time, and I had never dated an American, and I was introduced to this American. And needless to say, after two days, I decided I was going to marry him. Of course, he didn't know anything about it. But when we have a mindset, he couldn't say no because I was determined. So needless to say, after that he fell in love with me, of course. And so we got married and I had to break this news to my father. Ah. My father. My father's Spanish, my mother's half Swiss. And he thought that this was just going to be one of those little romances. He had no idea that I was going to get married and move to this country. And it just broke his heart. But I was determined to come to this country, and I did. But my husband did not have any money. We had money, but my husband did not. And so it came to fruition when we were on our honeymoon, when all of a sudden we had to go on that $5 a day. Remember that book? And I thought, this is not going to work, because if I was hungry, I wanted to have this restaurant here. Now, we had to walk for 20 minutes to find a restaurant that was in that book. I hated that book. And then I realized that this was changing my life. And when we arrived in the United States, I had nothing. You couldn't fly as an airline stewardess if you were married. So I knew I had to do something. I remember one time we were going into this grocery store, and my husband was showing me comparison shopping, and I thought, why? And even now, I'm sorry to laugh. No, but, honey, I'm reading my book, and I'm laughing because I remember all this. I remember looking at this mayonnaise and he would say, well, what mayonnaise should you buy because of the ounces? And I thought, I have no idea. All I know is, it's my level. But I think my message is, I was having so much fun. Everything I did, I enjoyed. I was too passionate and so finally he said, you have to find a job. And so I thought, well, I don't have any experience. So he said, well what about Avon. And then I read something about Avon. So I thought, I can do that. So first I had to learn about cold calling because I'd never done anything cold calling. So we would practice. And this is so much fun, I mean, reliving what we had to go through. So I went on a cold call and I was petrified, I wouldn't get out of the car. I would knock on the door. Finally, I ended up buying all my things. And so I did not make any money and that was not my job. So I quit that and then ended up working for Macy's in the gift department, wrapped all the gifts, and I was so bad they fired me. So I thought, I've got to do something. And then a girlfriend said, why don't you become a travel agent? And that is how my world opened up. And when I started working for agencies, my first client in one agency that I worked with was Intel, and they were just a hundred people. And then I had GE. And so I started working in the corporate market. But I didn't last long because the owner was horrible. One thing I learned is, he did not take care of the employees. It was all about him and his family. But none of us were able to participate on trips. So I learned a lot about what not to do from him. And so, my girlfriend and I were running the corporate department. She was running the vacations, and I was getting so frustrated. And my husband said, why don't you start your own. I was petrified, I'd never done anything like this. But, you know, you try it. And with $1500 each, we partnered together and we opened this agency. But I did not tell anybody where we were going. I did not tell our clients. And so we opened this little agency in Los Altos. We had no money. We had Repo Depot, I mean, you know, name it. It's the same Silicon Valley how it started up, holding the hole in the ceiling. And I waited and waited and there was no clients because I had not told anybody. So I decided I was going to go cold calling, things that I hated the most. But I was dressed to the hilt, I had on my high heels, and I started walking around in the Silicon Valley park, and I was walking. And then I saw this gentleman that was standing, uh, it was a company called Rome Rollin. And of course they were bought by IBM. Very, very big now. And there was the owner, I think was in there in one of the corner suites with a glass window. And he was looking at me because I was pacing back and forth and he thought I was a street walker. You can not say the first street walker. And all of a sudden my heel broke. And so I'm limping towards this receptionist and I said, I need to see that man in the corner. And at that time, in the valley, you don't need reservations, you don't need appointments. Everybody could just walk in. So I walked in and he came out and then we became friends. And that was really the start of the whole Silicon Valley movement, because he was one of the founders. And through him, I started getting more and more business and then I got Steve Jobs and I got Apple. So it went crazy. And then again, I could talk about my story, but I know that there might be questions you might probably want to ask me.   Andi Simon: Well, but you see, in some ways you've given us a nice foundation for how to begin the challenges of, I don't know how to do that, and I really don't like to do this, but I tried that. And next thing you know, you and your friend and you still have to find some customers. And this isn't sort of it. They don't drop into your lap. Although I must confess that if you hang out, all of a sudden things begin to happen. You were talking to them and learning from them. You began to craft something other than booking a ticket on a plane to go somewhere. And what I loved about what you did was that you created something far bigger. And I have a hunch you began to see things that they would ask for and you'd figure out how to do. But I'm putting words into your mouth. So how did you grow? Because you didn't grow a little. You grow with a whole different mindset completely.  Maryles Casto: It was so fast. And I think there were so many. We were growing so fast. We couldn't control our growth. And, you know, since I was, and we talk about how you felt as being the first woman because there really was no one, there was no other woman. There were men in my industry, but I never even thought about it. All I knew was that I was not going to fail. I was going to do whatever it took to be successful, and I was damn good. I was very, very good. And I believed in that. Yes, because if you can't believe in what you or your company is, how can you even go out and sell? So I knew I would be pitching. I'd go in and before, I would pitch directly to the vice president or the presidents. But as it changed, you have to go through purchasing, you have to go through all this. So the dynamics change. But on a 1:1, give me the CEO. And I was a CEO and I would always say, I'm in the same seat as you are. If I founded this company with $1,500, and I would have this argument with Steve because I said, if you weren't given the $200 million, where would you be? So I was very respectful of them. But I also thought, you know, tell me when you have started your company on your own with the seat of your pants, and then I'll respect you more. So don't get any baloney about all this, you know, because anyway, I just went ahead. I just focused and I thought, I will make this happen. And again the growth. But then we also suffered because we couldn't perform as much as we wanted to because we were making mistakes. And finally I said, stop it. We're not accepting any clients. We have to figure out what is wrong with our company, because there definitely was something wrong. We were not delivering the product we talked about. We were not paying attention to the customer. So I decided we would clean house and we were hiring people we shouldn't have hired, I learned. And so gradually when we started saying, we can't accept the account, we can't accept. And then they respected me for that. And then gradually we started fixing. We did our own training. I'm very focused on customer service. For me it is my religion. And you have to pay attention. And it's not what you do. It's what the clients are asking for. And even long before that, I started doing profiles. Each of my clients that had this black book, I would write everything. Who wanted coffee, what kind of newspaper they had, every single detail. This was before anybody thought about putting it all down, but I did. And then I also came up with a new service. I decided I was going to do my own Visa passport. I did not want anything touching my client except me. So anything they needed, not just the travel part of it, it's how you get to the airport. So I had airport service, people with uniforms. They're all in the yellow necktie. I had a limo service that would pick up all my VIP clients. They didn't have to ask me. I anticipated every move they made because my responsibility is, one, they call Casto.  I was responsible for them from when they left for the airport or when they left their home until I brought them home. I was sitting on that flight with them. I was getting in the car with them. I was in the hotel with them. I thought about only the clients, so. And I made sure everyone in our company understood that we don't survive without our clients, but we have to think ahead and anticipate whatever they need.  Andi Simon: Let's think about it, though, because nobody came and said to you, you're missing a major part of the business. You're selling. You weren't selling anything, really. What you had done is become a colleague of your clients, right? An extraordinarily important part of their experiences. You were and it's really a beautiful story about, it's not a travel ticket. It's not a limousine. It's this whole experience where I don't want you to have to worry about a thing. And I understand the whole. So you didn't even have to tell them, do you want this or do you want that? You said, I got it all mapped out for you. You don't have to worry.  Maryles Casto: One call.  Andi Simon: One call. Now, how did you begin to scale? Because often I have entrepreneurs who arrive at 10 million or 20 million and want to scale to 100 million, and they're not sure how to do that. You scaled and you started to talk about training. I mean, that's really what we're talking about here, is scaling. How did you do it?  Maryles Casto: Well, I started buying agencies again. Recession, remember when we had this major recession. And I thought, this is an opportunity, I can buy now. And I decided I was buying agencies, but strategically, I had 15 offices all over the United States because it had to be a very strategic move. And by the time, we had offices everywhere, but we were also very strategic. I did not want to just be Silicon Valley. I would be putting all my eggs in one basket. So my offices were in San Jose, in Palo Alto. I decided I needed a different kind of a base. I needed the banks. I needed a government contract. So I went to San Francisco and expanded my business there. And then I decided I needed 24 hour service because a client doesn't end at 5:30. When they travel, what happens? You know, they have to have a way of calling us. I didn't want them to call the airlines. They were my clients. They were my responsibility. I couldn't grow in Silicon Valley anymore because we were all looking for the same, we needed people. So I was having lunch with one of the senators who had come to the Valley for a business opportunity, and he was the senator from South Dakota. And he said to me, you know, South Dakota, we could use some business. So I had never been to South Dakota, Rapid City. So I flew there with him. He said, let's just check it out. So we put a blind ad to just say that we were coming for interviews. We got 500. Work for you.  Andi Simon: Wow.  Maryles Casto: There is a market here. But what I wanted to do was put my training there. But I also wanted my 24 hour service. No one was offering 24 hour service at that time. The airlines were, but not any travel agency. So these were all the things. I shouldn't say I, because there were a lot of people involved. But I would say I had the vision that you have to look at and say, what now? What else can you do? How can you enhance your service? But what is it that the clients need? And so as we were developing the corporate market, there was no one who could touch us in the corporate market because we had every account there was. And I also worked very closely with a lot of the venture people. So when they were funding companies, of course, for travel, I owned it. Andi Simon: Branded you, right? They endorsed you and you just came along.  Maryles Casto: Yeah. I would say, you know, you're funding this company. How do you know they're protecting you? You know, travel is the second largest expense. Working with me, I will guarantee you, because I also bought stock for all these companies because I thought we have to be investors as well. So even if it's small. But I felt that every flight I was looking at that as a shareholder. Andi Simon: You are so wise. And so it's fascinating listening to you because once you got going, nothing stopped. You just keep figuring out pieces. You said something important, though, and it's not a bad time to sort of migrate into the team. How did you support yourself around you with smart people? And what were you looking for in that team? They gave you the ability to multiply. They were your multipliers. What kinds of folks came in and how? One of the things that I read was that you treated this like a family.   Maryles Casto: I wanted them to feel proud. I bought my partner out after two years, I felt like she was so worried about expanding. She was so worried about losing money. And I thought, you know what, we're still very small. If we lost money, if we went belly up, I want to build it up myself. I don't want to drag her down. So I bought her out. And then we had to come up with a name because at that time, I think we had nine employees. When I bought her out, she wanted to do the vacation side only. She was not interested in the rest of it. So I had to come up with them and I said, okay, what is our name going to be? Because our original name was Travel Experience. And so we had this powwow and they said, well, why don't we call it Casto, it's your name. And I thought, no, I have to be very careful because if I give you my name, you have to guarantee you're going to back it up. It's not just about me, it's about all of us. So I then created this where they had to belong to this elite group, which happened to be customer travel. So I had all of us in uniform. They helped design this uniform, and we would go to all the functions in our uniform.  Andi Simon: But you know the symbolic meaning of that. You know, you're a meaning maker and the symbolism is not inconsequential. They belonged. People wanted to belong. And therefore they knew how to behave, how to think. And they took it home to their families, and they were part of something much bigger than just having a job. Correct?  Maryles Casto: Yeah. I made them very proud of being part of us. I said, it's not me, it's us. The Casto is you together. Of course, everybody thought it was Castro. And they look at me and say, oh, Castro. No. There's no answer. But you know what it was. I mean, we had so much fun. We really did. We put events together and the company would come in with different hats. We come in with different costumes. And, I couldn't wait to get into the office. And they felt the same way. There was so much joy. Lots of sorrow, too. I mean, we cry. I mean, we all shared a divorce. But we were together.  Andi Simon: Yes.  Maryles Casto: And that is very important.  Andi Simon: Amazing, amazing, amazing because you did it and it worked. And it became something well beyond itself. I want to get to your book, but also you grew it and then you added new services and then you began to see it grow, and then you finally sold it. What was the impetus?  Maryles Casto: Well, you know, when we started the business, about five years later, we got a big offer. This company, and in fact, this is a funny story because this company was a very large company, and they were interested in buying us because they wanted to get into the Silicon Valley when it was just starting. It was getting a lot of attention. And so, they made an offer and I said, no, I didn't want to, but anyway. And he and I  had a good relationship because when Intel became such a big company, purchasing people came in, and then they decided I was too small now. And they were concerned about my capacity to service them. So he was very, very large, one of the largest agency in the United States. So they gave him the business. So we partnered together. And so that's when he really wanted to take my business. And me, I said, no, it wasn't going to work. So that was the first venture. And the second one was a company that was from Omaha, Nebraska, another very large company. And at that time we had Andy Grove, who became chairman of Intel. And Andy became a very good friend because, again, he was a client and he became a friend because I knew everything about his travel. And he was so paranoid that if I wasn't going to take care of him, something would happen to his travel. So the second offer came in and we said, okay, we'll take it seriously. The gentleman flew in from Omaha and somewhere, somehow, I just did not feel that they were the right partners. They didn't understand Silicon Valley. And I just felt that it's not going to grow. It didn't have the same spirit, they weren't willing to be, it takes a different personality. So we thought the deal was done. And at the last minute I had to call them to say, okay, you know, we've arranged it. I picked up the phone and I couldn't say yes. I said no, and oh my God, both my son and Andy were furious with me because I said no. And I said, it just can't work. So I knew that we had to do something. And because of my son, the offer came in and it was a really good offer, and we knew that the time would come that we would have to exit. And so we sold it two years ago. We sold it a month before the pandemic.  Andi Simon: Oh, my, timing is everything.   Maryles Casto: And now I'm a rich woman.  Andi Simon: But, you know, I have a hunch you've been rich through this whole journey, haven't you?  Maryles Casto: Yeah, I have, I have, yeah.  Andi Simon: You know, the financial richness is nice, but at the end of the day, I'm not sure you worked for work's sake. I think you worked for the absolute... Maryles Casto: Love of it.  Andi Simon: For the love, you know, for the joy that you gave others, for the way in which you helped their lives do better. Am I misreading that? And this was spiritual and almost religious on your part, right? Correct.  Maryles Casto: Yes. It was, it is, and it still is. I still communicate with the people that, when we sold the company, we always kept the Philippines. The Philippines when we were growing so fast and we knew that we had to expand. I wanted to expand internationally, and I knew it was either India or the Philippines, and I knew the Philippines because I was from the Philippines and I knew the customer service, all the technology driven, because our business was very technology driven. I knew it was about personal travel and I knew that hospitality. It's like somebody said, it's Asian hospitality with Yankee business sense. That's how somebody describes me.  Andi Simon: Well, that's terrific, but that's a great image of it, right? I mean, because you blended all of these together in such a way that you created a whole new way of doing things. But, my goodness, it worked, and it's really brilliant listening to you talk about it. Talk about the book. Was this a way of capturing this and having a legacy as a book about this journey that you just shared or something different?  Maryles Casto: You know, it was something that I knew that I felt like there was a book in the making. I just never got the chance to sit down. And this was after we sold the company, and I was in the house and I was meeting with some friends, and just all of a sudden it just came to me. I had to write my book. I said, I'm ready for that. And I thought the story had to be told. I wanted other people to read what I went through and how much I have enjoyed my life. And I wondered, my grandchildren, maybe not now, but later on when they're older. Of course I dedicated the book for them, but I don't think they fully understood the challenges. But when they're grown. And maybe one day when they have a business, they can look at my book and say, you know what, Grandma did something.  And I have to share the coverage. And remember, I was covered.  Andi Simon: Yeah. Tell us about the cover.  Maryles Casto: This cover was an actual one. And when I decided when we were doing so well and I thought, we needed exposure now. We wanted people to know more about Casto Travel, not just in the Valley, but other areas as well. And so I had this girlfriend who started her own business, a PR business. And so I called her as a brand and said, listen, I'm ready to do something. I want the exposure of Casto more globally or more internationally or more regionally. And so she said, okay. So San Jose Mercury News was going to do an article and the photographer said, I can do your shot, but I don't want to do it here. I have an idea. Meet me at the airport at 6:00 in the morning and we'll do a shoot. And I said, oh my God, what is this about? So I met him at the airport and he had this truck, and in this truck was this desk. And he told me, bring the thing that you really want to put on the table. And I said, okay. But I thought, well, maybe it's just at the airport. So I brought these two doves or two birds, because Casto Travel is all about birds because that was my logo. I want to fly. I want to spread my wings. So I brought these two birds and then I thought, where are we going? He said, just follow me. And at that time, nobody can tell you, there's no security, no nothing. So he drove this guy and his truck to the runway, and he put the desk in. He said, no, we'll stay here. Let's get this all organized and let's wait for the plane. I said, wait for the plane. It took three hours to get just the angle.  Andi Simon: Oh, God.  Maryles Casto: I'll put it up. I thought I had to use this book.  Andi Simon: Just come in so we can see it, put it up again and hold it there for a second. Ah, so that's you. And that's the plane over you and this story is as beautiful as the cover of the book. We would not know why that book cover is so important, but that is cool. That captures you, doesn't it?   Maryles Casto: And, you know, the flying was because my father, when we were little, when I was little, and I was growing up, my father had an airplane. He had a small airplane, and he would be traveling from different farms. I always loved to fly. And so my father and I would go up flying. And he would say, okay, Maryles, watch. Look for the hole in the clouds so that we could get in and we could fly higher, and then we would do our maneuvers. And that was in tribute to my father. There is a hole in the cloud, and whatever I do, I always have a hole in the cloud to get out.  Andi Simon: Yeah, but your whole life has been finding that hole in the clouds and soaring up through this to get on top. This is something. Sometimes I ask the people I'm interviewing about some lessons that you wish someone had told you then. But I think that your story isn't easy to capture in a lesson or two. Unless there's something you think your younger self wishes somebody had told you. Is there something that you can share?  Maryles Casto: Oh gosh, somebody told me and so many people told me things. I don't know. For me, it's maybe kindness. For me, it's not a word we use a lot, and it's time for us to be kind to each other. And you don't have to be a jerk. No, really, and I, this was my actual experience. I was invited by United Airlines to go to the Academy Awards. At the time, we were big producers of United. And so I went. And then that night, this was Pretty Woman. Remember that, Julia Roberts? Anyway, we were staying at this beautiful hotel, and when we were being picked up in the limo, they were invited too, Larry Allison was invited with his girlfriend, and she was just fantastic looking. And then John Chambers from Cisco, so we were all going together. And when we got down, the limo was there, the door opened, and Larry Allison came in and he closed the door. He says, I don't share my limo. This is an actual story. I don't share my room. And so we just looked at him because at that time, you can't find any limo, especially Academy Awards night. So he drove off and we had to find another limo. And that's when it's the yin and yang. And I said, you know, you really are a jerk. And here's John Chambers. He was so sweet. I mean, the difference between the personalities. And again, I just feel like, if you could just show a little bit more kindness and don't get into your ego. The ego is nothing. What does it really mean?   Andi Simon: Yeah. That's beautiful. The joy that you can give, the kindness that you can show elevates you and someone else. And then an act of kindness that stayed in your mind as a moment that you never want to do again. How can I be kind? Correct.  Maryles Casto: Okay. And that's why I think I'm doing what I'm doing now. I suppose I mentioned to you that I'm starting my foundation because that is what it is really about. I've been so fortunate. And look at me. I'm now into my old age and I love it. I love what I've lived, and I mean that I love it. For me, aging is not a disease. It's something to celebrate. How many of us can say, I've lived it.  Andi Simon: I know, but that's so important because it's true. We're at a point now where we can be. We don't have to become. We can just enjoy the moment.   Maryles Casto: Exactly. I love the whole process of aging. My body is what it is now, and I celebrate everything I have. I celebrate my hair. I no longer am going to dye my hair because I just love being white. I'm doing it. And I think that probably my message is just as we all go through our lives, enjoy the moments you have and don't worry about the rest of the nonsense. There's so much of that.  Andi Simon: I'm going to I wish I didn't have to, but we're going to say goodbye and I'm going to thank you. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you, Edie, for introducing you. But I can understand why her friendship and yours transformed both of you over time. Because Edie is quite remarkable. This has been a gift to me and to our listeners. So thank you. So I'm going to say to our listeners, thank you for coming to On the Brink. I know that today has taken you off the brink. And then we're going to all soar. But the message is kindness and acts of kindness bring joy. So let's not just be nice, help each other also. In our book Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success that Edie Frazier and myself have written with 102 women about their wisdoms. And like what you heard today from Maryles Casto, the wisdoms help change your own lives. And I will tell you that every event that we're running, people share their wisdom a little like this podcast. And when they do, they are changing. And I've had people who keep coming back and saying, let me tell you what I heard and what I want to share again, and what I care about and what I'm now becoming. I had one woman who had yellow marks on the whole book, and I went, oh my goodness, and couldn't wait to show me her yellow marks. She says, I'm a better leader today. And I went, man, can a book do that? It can. And Maryles Casto, thank you for joining us. So I'm going to thank you so much. Remember everybody to take your ideas, your observations, turn them into innovations. And you too can soar, like Maryles says.  Maryles Casto: Bye bye.   WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Curiosity is contagious. Curiosity can be learned. So be curious! Sometimes, we meet people who make us pause for a moment and ask how we are building the life that we want to live. It is not about mimicking their lives. It is about understanding how they have stopped what they're doing and begun reflecting on whether this was a life they wanted. That's what happened when I met Dr. Deborah Clary. We met through the Women Business Collaborative (WBC). Deb and I were involved in WBC and found ourselves sharing our life journeys in different discussions. She was the right person to bring onto our podcast to share her career and how she has taken a turn in new directions. As you listen in, think about your own life. Watch and listen to our conversation here An accomplished woman leader not afraid to learn new things Dr. Debra Clary is the Founder and CEO of Elevascent, a personal growth and performance development company focused on helping individuals and teams accelerate growth through curiosity. This experience comes from three decades of executive leadership roles at Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniel's and Humana. In addition, Dr. Clary is also an author, global speaker, playwright, off-Broadway performer and an award-winning film producer. She holds a doctorate in leadership and organizational development from George Washington University, and received the Ralph Stone Leadership Award for exemplary leadership. She is also a board director for Health E-Commerce. In our podcast, we talk about women discovering their purpose and not letting others define them. And we share Debra's life story as a model for you, our audience, to think about as you step along on your pathway. Own your career, and enjoy it. Contact Debra You can connect with Debra on LinkedIn, Facebook, and her website, or email her at debra@debraclary.com. Want more inspiring stories of women owning their careers and taking charge of their lives? Here are some of our favorites: Shellye Archambeau Is Unapologetically Ambitious And Shows Us How We Can Be Too Kerry Flynn Barrett—Learn Why So Many Brilliant Women Have Ditched The Corporate Ladder To Start Their Own Business Sarah Soule—Busting Those Stereotypes of Women Lisa Caputo—Smashing The Myths Of What Women Can Accomplish Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. As you know, I'm a corporate anthropologist, and I specialize in helping organizations change and particularly the people inside them. And I really like to go looking for people to interview. And many of you send me people to interview. So it's so much fun to share. I look for people who can help you see, feel and think in new ways. And I use those words intentionally because you decide with the eyes and the heart. So how something feels is going to help you decide how to think about it. But what matters to me is that unless I can open your mind to see opportunities, possibilities, and be curious, you are going to see what's all around you and opportunities are all there. So today I have a wonderful, wonderful woman to come and share with you her wisdom around curiosities. Debra Clary is a Doctor of Organizational Design, but she's also someone who has culled her skills inside corporate and has now launched herself outside corporate as an entrepreneur to help many companies begin to see themselves through a fresh lens. Very anthropological. Let me tell you a little bit more about her, and then I'll ask her to talk about her own journey, because she's had a really important juncture point. Right now, Dr. Clay is a purpose-driven leader with a compelling message to share. Her enthusiasm lies in inspiring leaders and organizations in achieving business success through their enhancement of strategic alignment, team dynamics, and fostering a culture of curiosity. Now, that is a really big idea, bringing a wealth of experience from her roles and operations, strategy, marketing and people development at prominent companies such as Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniel's and Humana.  Debra brings incredible business insights and her dedication is evident in her commitment to working with leaders who aspire to elevate their impact and contribution to their organizations. So she's now writing a book, and she also is performing her own one-person play called A Curious Woman. And she did it Off Broadway, and I watched it streaming, and you can watch it coming up, too. And she's doing it again in Louisville, and she is having a wonderful time celebrating her own success as a curious woman. Debra, thank you for joining me today. Debra Clary: My pleasure. Andi Simon: You know, it's always fun when we share our stories. We're storytellers. We're also storymakers. And when you and I did our fireside chat at the Louisville Leadership Center, we really had a good time getting to know how we each have grown and how our own experiences have opened up opportunities for us. But for our listeners and our viewers who aren't familiar with you, talk about your own journey and why this is such an important point for you. It's a tipping point, opening up a whole new world of opportunity. Who is Debra?  Debra Clary: Oh, well, that's a big question, Andi, but let me let me take a shot at this is. I was the first person in my family to go to college, graduate from college, and went on to get a Masters in Business. And my first job was driving a route truck for Frito-Lay. Andi Simon: I always laugh when you tell me that. You say it so much better than I could. Debra Clary: And my parents were like, Did you really need six years of higher education to do this? But I also recognized that it was an opportunity to start with a great company and they started everybody on a route truck. And the one question I asked was, Are there other women doing this? And they said, Yes. And I said, May I ride with that individual one day to see if I think I can do this? And then I did. And so I spent nearly a decade at Frito-Lay, not on the route truck. I spent about nine months on the route truck in the city of Detroit and then evolved into sales management and then marketing and actually was one that was on the team that launched Flamin Hot, which is now a $1 billion brand for Frito-Lay. It's where I really learned how to market to consumers. How do you understand what consumers need? And from there, I was recruited away by Coca-Cola. I spent almost a decade at Coca-Cola in marketing roles where I got my experience of global marketing and how to really manage a global account. From there I went to Brown-Forman, where I was the VP of Strategy. I worked in the wine division, which was a really tough job, Andi. I mean, I had to spend all this time in Napa Valley tasting wines, trying to understand positioning. It was really tough, but I got through it and then I went to Jack Daniel's. I got really intrigued with culture because I had worked for Fortune 40 companies, and then I went to work for a publicly traded company, but it was still managed by the family, the Brown family. And there were just different dynamics, different cultures that I didn't quite recognize because of my background. And so I said, I'm curious. I want to understand people and culture. I want to understand how I can adapt to different cultures and how I can become a better leader. So I was reading the Wall Street Journal in which George Washington University had an ad in there that they had this cohort program for people that wanted to better understand leadership and culture. Exactly what I was looking for at the doctoral level. And so I went to my boss and said, I'm really passionate about this. And he said, Then go do it. And they completely supported me and funded that. So while sipping wine in Napa Valley, I was also going to school full time. So full time mother, full time employee and then a full time student. And how I did that is, once a month I flew to Washington, DC. I went to school 12 hours Friday, 12 hours Saturday and then I flew home Sunday morning, so that I could be with my children. And I did that for three years. Wrote my dissertation on women in leadership. I just had this real passion on what are the differences in women leadership and how we can continuously support women to step into these really big roles. And then I was recruited away by Humana, a healthcare company. And at first I said, There is no way I'm going into healthcare. I mean soda and snacks and now alcohol. Healthcare just did not seem to fit me. But, they said, You have an opportunity that we are starting a Leadership Institute. With your marketing, your business, your experience, and now with this academic degree, you're the perfect person to help us change our culture. And I was really drawn to those words of changing culture because I had experienced different cultures, but I wasn't quite sure how to do it. I had the academic side of it. I had some opinions, but now I was going to take this step and really put it into play. And so for my first nine years at Humana, I ran the Leadership Institute, and we did everything from assessments to development of our top executives. And then we got really brave and we took our learning outside of the company. And we spent time in Europe and in the US and offered how to understand the healthcare system because we really recognize that if the healthcare system is going to get better and have better outcomes, everyone in the community needs to be connected to it. And we started that with a simulation and we had much success. And then what happened is, we at Humana, we got a new CEO and he called me one day and said, Can you come talk? He said, I'm going to be doing some significant changes on my team. They're going to be off boarding and onboarding, and I need you embedded in the team. You know, 24-7. Your role is to be with us all the time. And so for the last eight years I did that: helping them understand team dynamics, leading their strategy sessions, all their off sites and really about team dynamics and how you get better as a team. And then that drives the business results. And then about a year ago, I said, Wow, I'm still curious on how I can scale my thought leadership outside of the corporate world. And so I made this transition about a year ago. The number one thing I did, as you mentioned: I wrote and performed a one-woman show. I never did that in my life. Had never performed in that way. I'd done keynotes, but never an actual play. And I surrounded myself with people that knew how to do that. And did a sold out show in New York. And now we have one coming up here next month in Louisville, Kentucky. So that is a little bit about my four decades in corporate America. And now my launch to scale my knowledge and my curiosity to other organizations. Andi Simon: I bet. I mean, there are many things that we can talk about today, but I bet that the audience, our listeners, are curious about a couple of things. One of which is, how do you grow like you have grown? Because the changes in places have not simply been taking what you were and applying them. It's changing who you were when you're applying them. This is an ongoing theme. I'm finding the people who are in my new book within Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success are all talking about owning yourself and owning your career. Can you talk a little bit about it and then we'll talk about your curiosity, but I'm also anxious to share with people what you discovered as you moved from being a Frito-Lay route driver all the way up to where you are at Humana, embedded in the organization to help build better what goes on. How does that happen? Debra Clary: That's another big question, Andi. It's not a simple question. I think the things that helped me was that my parents taught me the value of hard work and an education, and that's what I did. I was not afraid to work hard. I wasn't afraid to do the assignments that were given to me. And then couple that with, I am a learner and I'm curious, and I certainly recognized that there was a lot I didn't know, but I was bold enough to ask other people, people that I was admiring or people that had an expertise in that. I love inquiry, I love to have dialogue and discussion around that. And I'll give you an example. When I was with Frito-Lay and I was a regional manager. And I had two babies. And I was just trying to figure out how to manage this new world of motherhood, but wanting to climb the corporate ladder. This woman from headquarters at Frito-Lay flew into Detroit, and my job was to take her around and show her the market and have a conversation about that. And she was just, like, beautiful. Her hair was in place, there was no spit up on her. You know, her suit. I mean, she was just like, she seemed like she had it all together. And I also knew she had children. And on the way to the airport, I got up enough nerve to say, How do you do it? Well, how do you guide me to do this? It's a struggle for me. I'm trying to figure out how to be a good mom and how to be a good executive. And she said, Oh, it's really simple. It's two words. Get help! What do you mean, get help? She says, Have someone that you trust to watch your children. Have someone clean your home. Have someone mow your lawn. I mean, she was just going on and on, and I'm like, But I don't have that kind of discretionary income. I'm making it. But, I'm also trying to save money. And she said, If you don't invest in this, you're never going to get to the next rung because you're always going to be stressed and worrying. And from that point forward, I have said, Get help when I don't know how to do something or I need support, get help. And I recently read this book called, Who Not How. Are you familiar with this? Andi Simon: I'm not. It sounds good. Debra Clary: Extraordinary book about when you're an entrepreneur and you're starting an organization, or even if you have an organization, it's not about you doing the work, it's about you getting people that can help you do the work that you don't have an expertise in that. So building a website, doing software development. Why are you investing your time in that? You need to hire the right people to do that. And in the last three weeks, it's made a significant change in my outlook and my vision for, I can do this. I can actually do this. Andi Simon: I love it, I love your story. You said that's a big, big question, but in some ways you answered it with two words. It is not you alone. It's a team. You said that you took a dysfunctional team and you helped to build a team. And if the team does better, you all do better. So there are two wisdoms already that have popped out, one of which is that it's not a solo job. Even orchestras need to back up the soloist. I mean, there's a whole lot of orchestra going on and sometimes a conductor. But the other part is that it's okay to learn along the way what can be done to help you get somewhere, as long as you have a sense that you're on a journey to go somewhere, and that's what's really interesting and makes me curious about why you didn't stay inside corporate. You might have felt a little stuck or stalled. You ventured out into, I'll call it, a foreign territory. Having been in my own business for 22 years and dealing with entrepreneurs all the time, I taught entrepreneurship at Washington University. It is a foreign country for people who have been inside a corporation. So as you're entering this, it needs a new language. It needs new habits. It needs a new mindset. You know, share with the audience about what you're trying to develop, because you're clearly curious about trying to help people who need to be more curious, become more curious. Right?7 So let's talk about this whole vision of where you're going. Would that be okay? Debra Clary: Yeah. So let me start with how I got on this path. I was sitting next to our CEO in a meeting, and he leaned over and whispered to me, Do you think curiosity can be learned or is it innate? And I said, I don't know, but I'm curious. So that next week just happened to be the 4th of July, and I was going to be on holiday that whole week. I just dug into research on curiosity so that following Monday I go back to work. I lean over to him and I say, It can be learned. And that was that, right? I know all this about curiosity, but that was that. And about a week later, I'm talking about serendipity. Somebody that ran a very large division for our company called and said, We'd love for you to come do a keynote in Austin. Can you do it? And I go, Absolutely. What do you want me to talk about? And they go, You can talk about whatever you want to talk about…curiosity. And so I'd already done all I had prepared myself for something to come. And so I developed the information in terms of what happens to your brain when you're curious. You know, I want people to understand that this is a neuroscience perspective on that. Demonstrating that curiosity is good for the brain. And then I shared about the difference between children and adults. These are studies: why children ask questions and why adults don't ask questions. And then I said to him: And here's what the benefit of it is. And then I taught them some practical things that they can do to be curious. And that was that. I thought, Okay, this will probably never happen again. And then it snowballed. And I think I spoke to over 10,000 people at Humana and then started speaking externally. And I thought, Wow, people are curious. They want to learn about curiosity. But more importantly, they want to be curious. And the thing that I found, Andi, is that curiosity is contagious. Andi Simon: Yes. Debra Clary: So if you are around curious people, you're going to be curious. Andi Simon: Debra, let's talk some more. This is so much fun because what happens if you have this contagion called curiosity? Are good things happening? Debra Clary: Absolutely. And, you know, being a scientist, I wanted to know how to be able to measure it. What are the levels of curiosity? So I partnered with a group out of MIT to say, I want a valid assessment that can demonstrate the level of curiosity at an individual level and a curiosity in an org. level, because if we have data, then we can make change.  So I mean, the data suggests that when you're curious,  people begin to feel seen, valued and heard. And isn't that a lovely thing if people feel that. What does that do for engagement? What does it do for problem solving? What does it do for innovation? Well, all of that increases. People want to work in a curious environment. They want to work for a leader that is open to your ideas, that your ideas matter. That's what employees want. That's what associates want. And so not only now can we talk about it from other studies and why it's important, and here are the benefits from it. We can actually measure your current state of curiosity. And then we help you to figure out what are areas that you can get better in to help you drive this within your organization. Andi Simon: It's such an interesting word because by and large, I doubt there's an MBA program with a course on curiosity, is there? I'm not aware of it. So it isn't as if we are thinking about this in the training that we're giving aspiring next generation business people. And I doubt when they walk into HR, people ask them, Are you a curious person? They'll ask about their skills and how they like to get along. And are they collaborative, perhaps. And are they, you know, take charge and directing? But curiosity opens up a very different view of the world. It sort of challenges the imposter syndrome. It's okay not to know, and it's okay that we can figure out what is important by simply figuring out what's important. And that becomes very important. I often work with organizations going through fast change, either machine learning or changes to their clients or robots or hybrids. Humans hate change, their brains fight it. The amygdala says, Go away. You know I'm going to fear you, I fear you. I don't want any of this cortisol flying around in your brain saying, Get away. This is bad news stuff. And you're saying, Can turn this all into beautiful oxytocin, where I'm having such fun learning new stuff and growing, which is really important. Am I right? Debra Clary: Yeah. It's like, bring on the dopamine. You know that you get that when you feel like somebody cares about you because they're asking questions and they're suspending judgment. You know, that dopamine is hitting.  Andi Simon: And bring on the dopamine. Love it. Debra Clary: I've never said it like that before, but that's what occurs to me. So what we also know from a neuroscience perspective is, the brain is a machine and it is designed to keep you safe. And so there's this thing called fast pass matching, meaning that when something comes up, your brain wants to go to a solution as quick as possible because our ancestors were in danger. So you need to take action. And what we today have to guard against is not fast past matching. If it sounds like it goes really quick, I have someone step back and say, Wait, maybe there's another choice, maybe there's another option. Going back to your question around an interview: you don't ask people if they're curious. However, you could ask them questions like, What is the last thing you learned? What is something that you're working on that you don't know right now? And you can begin to get an idea if that's something that they're interested in learning. You can also figure out what is their tenacity to stay with the project because, you know, things don't go smoothly all the time, especially when you're being really innovative.  And what is your ability to be determined and to stay with it? That's also something that you can measure. Andi Simon: Now, I bet you that it doesn't matter if you're an engineer who likes to put things into boxes, or you're a marketing person who likes to be creative. That curiosity can be for both of them. It doesn't matter much what the nature of your mind is. If you open it up to see new things and unexpected things, you can expand the way an engineer can see the data boxes and creativity is already looking there. And sometimes my creatives have trouble settling down on something. They see too many things, too many ideas. Entrepreneurs have a terrible way of having more ideas than they have the possibility of actually implementing. But that's okay. And part of the learning process. One entrepreneur said, I needed a Type A to organize me, or if not, I never got any ideas done. And so you need to know yourself, but you also need to let the ideas flow so that you can grow. And this is a growth strategy.  Debra Clary: Absolutely. I was recently working with a client who is an engineer, and I was asking a series of questions, and I could tell he was getting really frustrated because he wanted the pattern. He wanted to get to the solution. And when I realized that, I had to share with him: We are going to get to an answer and we are going to make a decision. But this very period of time right now is about exploring what's possible so we get to the best solution. But when we decide on that, it is go and we're going to get it done. And it was just like this huge relief on his face. And my point is, is that you have to kind of understand who you're working with as you're pacing and leading them. I mean, ultimately, you want people to be able to take action. You want them to feel good about the solution. And of course, that translates into two business outcomes. Andi Simon: Yes, I know, but for humans, ambiguity is the most dangerous place to be. You can be black or white, but they don't like gray. It can be red or blue, but not purple. And when we are adverse to the ambiguity, we miss all the opportunities because they usually pop up betwixt and between, don't they? Debra Clary: And when that occurs to me, which has been happening a lot lately as I'm starting up this company, I'll remind myself: You don't know the answer. But Deb, you're going to figure it out and you're going to have people that are going to help you figure it out. And that just takes my heart rate all the way down and says, well, that's right, this is a mess. And we're going to get to it. Andi Simon: Yes. And there it is. Kay Unger from Kay Unger Fashion Designs, who's done wonderful creative things in the design and fashion industry for many years, said something to me the other day that she sees things in pictures, and of course the brain actually sees everything in pictures. And so what she finds is that once she has a problem to solve, she puts all the pictures out and watches how they come together, almost like solving a puzzle. And I share that metaphor for you and the audience, because it's a very interesting way to realize that is, in fact, how the brain likes to work. It likes pictures, it likes to see and visualize. And I actually gave my leadership academy pads of paper and colored pencils and said, Now you're going to draw yourself a year from now so you can visualize where you're going, because if you can't see it, you're never going to get there. But if you can, even if it's not right, you'll begin to take the small, curious steps to see how to move along. And you can redraw the picture. But without one, not much can happen because you get stuff stalled. Debra Clary: Absolutely. I think that is so powerful. What Kate said around that our brains do think in pictures. And if you think about it, I was in France this year and I spent time in the caves where the artists were. It's just so extraordinary what these men and women did during the Ice Age and how they communicated was through these pictures and that has been passed down to each of us in terms of first pictures and then the spoken word and the written word came so, so much later. Andi Simon: Of course, but Gutenberg came much later. But that was 35,000 years ago. And they were pretty sophisticated because they brought their pigments from long distances away. And their sophistication in the pictures were amazing stories to be told and shared. But, you know, before that the cave paintings weren't and then all of a sudden they were. And I often wonder, how much was that we haven't really been able to find because we haven't found the artifacts with them and where they were located. But it's an interesting story, and we can't quite decide if the humans did it or the Neanderthals did it because they were sharing the same territories together. Debra Clary: Yes, absolutely. And you probably have seen this recent finding in, I think it was Germany. As an anthropologist, I mean, you and I are of the same minds. We come from a different way, but it's like getting curious enough to understand and go deeper and say, well, what about this? Well, this doesn't match. How could this particularly match? I mean, every day to me is fascinating. It's just when I keep my mind open, it's just fascinating. Andi Simon: You're having fun, aren't you? Debra Clary: I am having fun. Andi Simon: Good. Let's talk a little bit about if people want to learn more about you, where would the website be so that they could find you? Debra Clary: Yes. So it's DebraClary.com so just my name and they'll see the services and the consulting that I offer. But they also have a free curiosity assessment. So they click on that link. They're going to get their score on their current level of curiosity. Andi Simon: Oh let's say that again. So if you're curious about your curiosity go to DebraClary.com and download the survey there. And it's a short version. It's not the long one she might give you in your organization, but enough to give you an assessment of your curiosity. And I bet you're curious about your curiosity. Once you find it then the question is, what do I do with it? And then you can get back to DebraClary.com. And she would be delighted to talk to you about how you take and convert curiosity into opportunity, because that's what it's really opening for you. So on that note, I'm going to wrap us up for today because I've had such a good time. Last note, one or two thoughts, Debra, that you want to make sure they don't forget. Debra Clary: That curiosity is contagious. Curiosity can be learned. Andi Simon: Good. That is wonderful. So for those of you who came, whether you're watching or you're listening, it's always a pleasure. Send along those who you would like me to interview on our podcast. We have over 380 done and there are many more in the queue coming, and they're all really, like Debra Clary, extraordinarily helpful to help you get off the brink. And if you're on the brink, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways, which is what we're going to do. Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, is available at Barnes and Noble and Amazon. But I will tell you, I'm learning that a book has an energy, a force, and it's when the reader opens that book. Debra and I did a program at Louisville Leadership, and we had a ball with 50 women who couldn't get enough wisdom out of our wisdoms and who wanted to share wisdoms. That was really cool, wasn't it? Debra Clary: Yes. Andi Simon: So on that note, my friends, let us know how you are doing. Send us emails at info@AndiSimon.com and we look forward to hearing from you. Have a wonderful day. Goodbye and thank you so much Deb. It was a pleasure and I'm sure everyone else has enjoyed it as much as I have. Debra Clary: Thank you Andi.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how when you allow life to unfold, you find that miracles happen I first interviewed Dr. Srikumar Rao in July 2023 and was so deeply inspired by the wisdoms he shared with us that I wanted to have him back so he could teach us more. And he does. The title of his new book is Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots, in which he offers solid tools we can use to let go of the mental chatter that gets in the way of seeing what's possible. The universe is benevolent, Dr. Rao says, it's your friend, and when we understand this, that's when we can change our story and thus, the direction of our lives. Are you ready to make a change, today? Watch and listen to our conversation here Some of Dr. Rao's wisdoms which you can apply to your own life The most important thing is not what you're doing but who you are being as you do it. Too often we get hung up on the doing, and we completely miss the fact that being is much more important than the doing. Allow life to unfold. And as you do, you find that miracles happen, and they happen on a regular basis. We never experience life the way it is. We always experience life according to the story we tell ourselves about it. When you change your thinking from the universe is indifferent to the universe is friendly, your experience of life has such a tremendous transformation. Open yourself up to possibilities. The universe is benevolent. The universe is your friend. Recognize that it's your friend. And the more you do this, the more signs you will get that it in fact is your friend. Your job in this life is to recognize who you really are and cast yourself free from this cage in which you have ensnared yourself. Trust yourself and recognize that the door to your prison is always open and unlocked. All you have to do is open the door and step out of it. Why does the universe give you stuff you don't want? Well, the universe doesn't give you what you want, but gives you exactly what you need for your learning and growth. We all have mental chatter. And the problem is not that you have mental chatter, the problem is you identify with your mental chatter. So sit back and observe your mental chatter. Observe yourself feeling worried. Observe yourself feeling anxious. And as you create that distance, you no longer have your mental chatter. You're the observer of the mental chatter. Then it loses its ability to take you to places you don't want to go. To contact Dr. Srikumar Rao You can reach out to Dr. Rao on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website, The Rao Institute. Watch his TED Talk here and email him at srikumar.rao@theraoinstitute.com. More inspiration for finding joy and purpsoe on your life journey: Blog: Time to Add Gratitude to Your Life—And Your Company's Culture! Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose! Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life? Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here  Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, this podcast is designed to help you get off the brink. The one thing we don't want you to do is get stuck or stalled. But you can begin to understand how you can change. And that's what we like to help people and their organizations do. So today, I have a wonderful gentleman here, and Doctor Rao did a podcast with us earlier, last July in fact, that was just a hit, but he's got a new book coming out. Actually, it's out and I have been reading it and you will love it. Let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Srikumar Rao. He is a creator of creativity and personal mastery. His bio doesn't fit a bio. It's a wonderful story about a life well-lived. He's a speaker, a former business school professor and head of The Rao Institute, and I urge you to take a look at that online because it's full of rich opportunities for you to begin to see, feel and think in new ways. And I use those words, but they mimic the words he uses. He is an executive coach to senior business executives, and he helps them find deeper meaning and engagement in their work. He also talks about the fact that work isn't work. And I love the idea because I love to work, and people say, when are you going to retire? I say, I'm never going to retire. Why is work bad? Because we define it as something that is not fun, but work isn't work. Work is something that gives us all kinds of things, purpose, meaning, joy. What could it do for you? My last thought today is to make sure that you understand Dr. Rao has programs and coaching that you can enjoy because they are joyful to help you begin to become the kind of person that you'd like to be. I'm going to call you Srikumar. Srikumar Rao: Works just fine.  Andi Simon: Thank you for joining me again. It's really a pleasure. Srikumar Rao: It's my pleasure, Andi. I had such a blast the last time you interviewed me that I was positively looking forward to this session. Andi Simon: For our audience, watch out, here comes some really wonderful, wonderful stuff. Give the audience some context, though. Who are you? A man of your journey and why was this book? The book is called Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. Now when you buy an ebook, that's how I can show you the book. And I did buy a hard copy, but it isn't a hard copy. And as I'm reading it, I think you're going to find it wonderful. What is the context for this book and who are you? Why should they listen?  Srikumar Rao: Who am I? As you mentioned, I'm an executive coach, and I have a very well defined niche. I work with successful people, mostly entrepreneurs, who have already done very well for themselves. But they're driven. They want to have an outsized impact on the world. But at the same time, they have an explicitly spiritual bent that they would like to infuse into every area of their life. They know that life is about more than getting the biggest toys, or the most expensive toys. And there's something deeper, and they want to bring that into all parts of their life. So that's the sandbox in which I play, and to the best of my knowledge, I'm the only person who's playing in that particular sandbox. I may be wrong, but I'm not aware of any others. Andi Simon: Well, clearly it's not a red ocean of lots of competition pushing you away, is it? Srikumar Rao: No there isn't. By the time people come to me, they've already done their homework. They've listened to my TED Talk. They watched many of my videos on YouTube, and they know they want to work with me. Andi Simon: And when they do the kind of work you like to do with them, can you give us some ideas? Srikumar Rao: We have conversations. We have deep conversations, and I have an unusual take on coaching. So let me explain that. In my view, the only thing you ever do in life, Andi, is you work on yourself. A benevolent universe has given you many tools. Your husband is a tool. Your daughters and granddaughters are tools. The business you run, the clients you have, they're all tools. You want to do the very best you can for your clients. You want them to feel: Gee, hiring Andi was the best thing that I ever did. But in the process of doing that, what you're really doing is you're working on yourself. You want to be a great wife. You want to be a great mother. In the process of doing that, what you really do is you work on yourself. The only thing you ever do in life is work on yourself. Now the universe has given you wonderful tools and running a business is a Swiss army knife of tools. You use that skillfully, but you never lose sight of the fact that in using these tools skillfully, what you're really doing is you're working on yourself. Does that make sense to you, Andi? Andi Simon: Yes. Maybe because it requires you to be reflective of what you're doing, how you're doing it, and what the impact or the outcome is.  Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. Because the most important thing, Andi, is not what you're doing. but who you're being as you do it. And too often we get hung up on the doing, and we completely miss the fact that being is much more important than the doing. Andi Simon: I'll stay on that for a moment. I don't want to lose track of why this new book and how it fits. But as I hear you, you work with successful people who may or may not realize how they have become who they are. They may not be happy with where they are, but they don't seem to have a toolkit to begin to take them to the next place. And that is a big theme that I'm finding that people find themselves either in retirement or transition or job change or career growth, and it's being done to them instead of them owning their life and who they are, something that you have found as well. Srikumar Rao: Absolutely, yes. Because too many people, Andi, go around trying to make life happen. Andi Simon: Forgive me for laughing. Srikumar Rao: I love life to unroll, unfold. And as you allow life to unfold, you find that miracles happen and they happen on a regular basis. Andi Simon: Well, you and I were talking about serendipity, but miracles are a different word. Similar? Your early conversation about a path through life, I think, is so valuable to think about for our audience, who's either watching you or listening that the steps aren't necessarily, you can't necessarily see them, but you can begin to live them. Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. You know, let me share something with you, Andi. If you ask people: Are you happy? Most of them will say, Yes, I'm happy. Remember, these are successful people already, but we define happiness too narrowly. We define happiness as there's nothing really bothering me right now, and there are actually some things that I like, or I'm looking forward to watching a new Netflix series or having dinner with a friend or something like that. That's a very low part. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, do you feel radiantly alive? Do you feel so full of gratitude that you feel as if you're bursting? Are you not walking, but joyously floating through the air, hitting ground every 100ft or so. Is that your experience of life? And if that's not your experience of life, why not? Because that is your nature. So how do you reclaim the joy you felt as a child, when you could spend an hour watching a dog chase its tail? Why have you lost that? And how can you bring it back to your life today? That's what my coaching is about. And the wonderful thing is that when you're in that space, your business and whatever else you know just floats effortlessly and you accomplish more than you could ever have dreamed possible. It just happens because you're not trying to force things. You're allowing the universe to unfold. Andi Simon: Let's dig deeper into that. Marissa Peer is really a renowned hypnotherapist who often talks about the fact that we live the story in our mind. And our mind also loves to go to pleasure, not pain. Even if the pain causes pleasure, like narcotics might. And the habits take over and you don't even know that you're habit driven. You think you have free will. And so this complicated human where we want to take and know our own selves and take ownership of it, determine our careers, determine our life, give it more intentionality, a purpose, isn't that easy. And so the question becomes, how do you change the story, modify the habits, begin to not simply just wish, but to begin to actually feel that gratitude, that happiness. I don't want to add my ideas, I want to hear yours because our listeners do. But there's a way of taking where you are. You may have your house, you may have your car, you may have your club. You may think you're happy, but take it to a whole next level where you are. Every day is a gift, and you wake up happy to be there. Srikumar Rao: And the short answer to that, Andi, is, you have to work at it. Because we have been programmed, we have been conditioned, and we are so programmed and conditioned that we don't even recognize that we have been programmed and conditioned. It's true. And what we have is, we've got a lot of extraneous thoughts going on. I call it mental chatter, and mental chatter is always with you. It's so much a part of your life that you don't even recognize you have it. You know, the kind of thing that goes: Oh, drat my secretary screwed up again, and should I keep her or should I fire her? And I'm sick and tired of having to go through these small snafus that keep coming up, which she should have handled. All of that is mental chatter. We live our life defined by our mental chatter, and we never recognize that we're living a life which is defined by our mental chatter and not by what is really happening internally to us. But one of the first things that I do with my client is, I get them to understand that this mental chatter, which you ignore, is actually creating the life that you live in. So the first step is to be aware that there is this stuff that is happening. The first step is to recognize that this is happening and this is really running your life. And when you do that and you become aware of your mental chatter as opposed to being carried away by your mental chatter, you start to say, hey, you know, the world isn't what I thought it was. It's something that's different. Yeah, that is the starting point. Andi Simon: With that in mind, I don't like to tease my audience, give us something a little bit more illustrative, concrete to take from it. Stop the mental chatter because when you stop it, then you're going to fill yourself with an opportunity. Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. Let me share something which I'm sure some of your clients and many of the people listening to this podcast can relate with. I was teaching in London Business School and I had a student who was an investment banker and a very successful investment banker. There were many problems in his marriage. Because he was an investment banker, he was working long hours. And because he worked long hours, he missed many family occasions, dinners. You know, his son's first piano recital and stuff like that. And his wife would get very upset at him. “You said you'd be back and you weren't.” And she accused him of not caring. From his perspective, the very fact that he was working long hours at a job that he didn't particularly like was evidence of his caring. And obviously they were able to maintain the lifestyle that they did because of the income he pulled in from his job. So the very fact that he was working long hours was, in his mind, an expression of caring. When she laced into him, he would get defensive, they'd have massive fights. And yet it was just a very uncomfortable, uncomfortable situation. And they were rapidly heading towards divorce. And then in my course, somebody suggested to him that, look, when your wife is lashing it to you for not caring, what she's really saying is, honey, I miss you. And I wish that I was with you or you were with me. Totally not convinced but he agreed to try it. And the next time he was late and his wife started getting mad at him and accusing him of not caring, instead of reacting the way he normally did, he said, Honey, it must have been really tough on you. I'm so sorry. Which is so different from what he usually said that she was taken aback. And what would have been an entire evening quarrel petered out in 30 minutes. And as he continued doing that, and each time that she got angry at him or started to get sarcastic, he would simply say, I love you. And I realize it's very tough on you, I will try to make it up. And gradually their bitter quarrels faded away. They didn't entirely resolve the situation, but it became something to be handled as opposed to: this is going to lead to the end of our marriage. I was about to say that's the way in which we're always telling stories to ourselves. And we don't recognize that we're telling stories to ourselves. We believe this is the reality. Andi Simon: Let's stay there. I'm making some notes. In the stories, we're always a hero. Stories that we're telling ourselves, we're always the hero. Srikumar Rao: Yes. Andi Simon: Right. And so the story you just shared is a beautiful one. Where he was right. She was wrong. She was right. He was wrong until they stopped being heroes to themselves. But literally, he just became, in the words he said to her, caring about how she was. It deflated all of the competition, the animosity. What a beautiful story to share and think about. Yeah, because it's not complicated. It's just, you know, change the story and change your life. Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. What we don't recognize is that we never experience life the way it is. We always experience life according to the story we tell ourselves about it. And most of us never understand that this is what is happening, that it isn't reality. It's the story we have told ourselves and which we believe without ever recognizing that it is a story, and we have the opportunity to change the narrative. And what I'm very good at, is helping people understand that and to change the narrative. Andi Simon: That leads very nicely, though, into your new book. Tell us about the timing, the pacing. What was a catalytic moment for another book. Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots has a purpose, and there's something at the end of it for you to use to self-assess. But the context is important here because as the listener thinks about their story that's guiding their life either toward happiness or toward less than, it's an opportunity to begin to rethink who am I and the story I'm living and what am I thinking. Please, what was the motivation for this book and tell us about it. Srikumar Rao: A book, Andi, and you can understand this, being a multiple times author yourself, is like a baby. You know, it comes to a point at which it has to be born. Yes, that's what happened with this. I wanted to, as you know, I'm an executive coach and people ask me questions. And I noticed that there was a great deal of similarity in the questions. And this cuts across countries, cuts across culture, cuts across ethnic and other backgrounds. They're human problems, not problems related to any particular occupation, country, or religious or ethnic background. So I figured that if I put this down, it would be a help to people to understand that. And some of them, of course, might want to go deeper. And if so, they reach out to me and we discuss what I can do for them. But the idea is to give them solid tools, and the heart of it is to understand that the world we're living in is not a real world. It's a construct. We build that construct with our mental chatter and our mental models. Now, this is hugely liberating because if the world we're living in is not real and you don't like it, then you can deconstruct the parts of it you don't like and build it again.  But what do you do if the world you live in is real, and you don't like it, you're screwed. But if it's not real, you can change it. So how do you go about doing that? That's what my coaching is all about. And some of the tools that I use are given in that book Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. And I've tried to illustrate it by means of stories, because I find that stories bring it home very, very powerfully. This is a story I shared with you about the investment banker and his wife. And, you know, they were able to make almost a U-turn. Andi Simon: Now stay on that. I want to talk a little bit more about some of the chapters in there but we often say that we live an illusion. The story creates an illusion that guides our day but isn't real. And the only truth is there's no truth. It's very hard for people not to say, this isn't real. Well, sort of, but the pen is only real enough when you write with it, and something happens but it's hard to understand that some of them, the stories that you have in there, though, are really very important for thinking about who am I and what am I doing and why am I doing this. Can you share a few of them? I'll say the short chapters, but there are a couple of major points. Srikumar Rao: Here's one. Now, how do you think about the universe? Einstein said that the most important question you will ever ask yourself is, is the universe friendly? Now we respect Einstein because he was a great scientist, but he was also a philosopher who had a very intimate understanding of how the universe worked. And Einstein said, the most important question you will ever ask yourself is, is the universe friendly? Now, there are some people who believe that the universe is distinctly unfriendly, and the sole purpose of the universe is to frustrate. The vast, overwhelming majority of us believe the universe is neither friendly nor unfriendly. It's indifferent. The universe doesn't know you exist and couldn't care less. So here you are going around doing your thing. There's a universe going around doing its thing. Sometimes it seems to work with you, sometimes it seems to work against you. But essentially it's a random process. What if that wasn't true? What if the universe was aware of your existence and the universe was well-disposed towards you? Why does the universe give you stuff you don't want? You want to go on vacation and the universe gives you pandemics and lockdowns. Why does the universe give you stuff you don't want? Well, the universe didn't give you what you wanted, but gave you exactly what you needed for your learning and growth. Like you're a small child and you want a tub of ice cream, and the universe gives you fruits and vegetables, and you don't want fruits and vegetables, you want a tub of ice cream. But the universe through your parents gives you fruits and vegetables. It isn't until you reach a much higher level of maturity that you can say, thank God I got fruits and vegetables rather than a tub of ice cream. What if the universe was exactly like that? That is a mental model, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it's a superior mental model. And regardless of whether the universe was friendly or not, if you believed the universe was friendly, your experience of life would be a whole lot better.  How do you adopt this mental model? And the idea is recognize that it's a superior mental model and look for signs that this is operating in your life. And I advocate people having a notebook where they write down the signs that the universe is friendly, and when you do that, you'll see them everywhere. I'll give you an example. This happened to me yesterday. So I had a plumbing issue in one of my toilets, and I called the plumber and he came and fixed it. And after he did that, he had come to my house earlier, and he was missing a drill, and he thought he might have left it downstairs. So I went to the basement to check, and he noticed that there was a pinhole leak in one of my pipes, and discovered it purely by accident. But he looked at that and pointed to my attention and said, I'm here and I'll fix it. It could have been quite major, and he fixed it. Completely serendipitous. That's a miracle. It's a sign the universe is friendly. Most of the time when something like that happens, we dismiss it as a coincidence. So coincidence is a miracle killer. But when you start noting the ways in which the universe seems to be working with you and has your back, you notice so many of them that you'll reach an internal tipping point. And in that tipping point, you will tip over from “the universe is indifferent” to “the universe is friendly.” And when you do that, your experience of life has such a tremendous transformation. Andi Simon: And I think that the timing of your conversation today is so interesting because I too, I believe in, in those kinds of chance moments which aren't clearly by chance. And there was nothing that made him go down there, except perhaps he left his drill down there and nothing that said, please take a look at a pinhole in the pipe or anything for you. I started a conversation today talking about where we're going and the kinds of things we're in. But, it is an interesting lesson for our listeners, a wisdom to begin to open up your mind to possibilities. Srikumar Rao: That is the key point. You've hit the nail right on the head. Open yourself up to possibilities. Andi Simon: Because that's the only way you're going to grow. As we know that the brain hates change, unfamiliarly. It fights everything that comes in and threatens what's current. You have to overcome that cortisol that's produced until it, nope, I want some oxytocin, because I think this is the greatest idea that I could begin to think about. But the only one who can manage that is you. Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. And when you start living in a friendly universe, then you say something happens to you and you say, okay, you know, there's a lesson in there for me. And what is the lesson and how soon can I learn it? And you'll invariably find that the unfortunate situation resolves itself. Andi Simon: So when you're up at two in the morning thinking about something that's really bugging you, let it go. Meditate, quiet the mind.  So I'm watching our time and it's almost ready to wrap up, but I want to talk about one thing more and that is meditation, mindfulness, managing your mind. Because unless you understand there are things you can do, in fact, I'm not going to say take charge of your mind, but quiet it, you're going to think, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to let go of those negatives to absorb the positive. Any things that you particularly like to do? I've learned mindfulness myself, but please. Srikumar Rao: What happens? Andi we have this mental chatter going on, and you can't stop it. It's pointless saying, you know something is happening, don't worry about it. If you could not worry about it, you'd not worry about it. But you're incapable of not worrying about it. That's okay. You cannot stop worrying about it, but you can observe and be aware of the fact that you're worrying about it. So one of the cornerstone exercises of mine is, look, you have this mental chatter that's going on. And the problem is not that you have mental chatter. The problem is you identify with your mental chatter. And when you identify with the mental chatter, it can grab you by the neck and take you to all kinds of dark places. So sit back and observe your mental chatter. Observe yourself feeling worried. Observe yourself feeling anxious. And as you create that distance, you no longer have your mental chatter. You're the observer of the mental chatter. The velocity and the power of that chatter, it diminishes and it loses the ability to take you to places you don't want to go. It's very easy to describe and it's very easy to start off on that. It's very difficult to keep it there because you start observing your mental chatter and in seconds you've lost it and you become your mental chatter. When that happens, go back to being the observer. This is one of the cornerstone exercises of my programs and my coaching. But as you become better and better at that, you can be an observer for a longer and longer period, and you'll find that the things that used to bother you no longer bother you because you let them go. Andi Simon: And that letting go is a lot like what you have to do to grow up. Yeah. Let it go. And at any age, you can be, you know, still a child, let it go to get to the next stage in your own personal growth. I've enjoyed this so much. I do want to say one thing for our listeners and our viewers, that when you're working, when you're in an organization that may have gotten toxic or may seem to be unpleasant to get to work every day, or your folks are beginning to struggle, time to sit down with them and think about that mental chatter that's going on. It may come from outside of the workplace or inside. Or maybe somebody said something to someone. Think about the investment banker and the different ways he can deal with his wife, one of which is caring about the fact she's been alone, or the other is angry that she cares so much about herself that she's not thinking about him and the work he's doing. Same situation, two different stories. But, if you have an organization that seems to be fragile and it's not a bad methodology to begin to sit down and listen to the conversation, observe, be an anthropologist, hang out, listen to the conversations at lunchtime. Begin to pull out of the stories people are telling that mental chatter that's creating noise instead of joy. Because so much joy is there waiting to happen. The universe is joyful. Let it happen. Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. The universe is benevolent. The universe is your friend. Recognize that it's your friend. And the more you recognize it as your friend, the more signs you will get that it in fact is your friend. Andi Simon: And then every day, coming to work isn't work. It's about growing and learning and teaching and gratitude and just having joy. Srikumar Rao: Exactly, exactly, exactly right, Andi. Andi Simon: Last thoughts? Dr. Srikumar Rao has been with us today, talking about his new book, Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. But it's about you and about how you can turn work into growth. Begin to think about that, that chatter in your mind as something to let go. Some last thoughts. Srikumar Rao: Your nature is happiness. You're not this shell of skin and bones and blood that you think you are, who you really are is pure awareness. Your job in this life is to recognize who you really are and cast yourself free from this cage in which you have ensnared yourself. Trust yourself and recognize that the door to your prison is always open and unlocked. All you have to do is open the door and step out of it. Andi Simon: This has been a pleasure. I could keep talking. I've enjoyed our conversation and I know our listeners and viewers will as well. Let me wrap up. It's such fun to share people like Dr. Rao with you because it takes us to the next stage in our own growth. And I don't care where you are, that noise in your brain is going to get in the way of seeing what's possible. And in fact, the little challenge here or a little opportunity there if you let it turn into an opportunity. Next thing you know, you're rising with it. And he's smiling and so am I. So thank you for coming today. Srikumar Rao: It's been my pleasure. And I look forward to a wonderful association. And I don't know which way it's going to go, but I know it's going to go exactly the way it's supposed to. Thank you. Andi Simon: Thank you. But the joyful universe is going to take us on its own way, and we're going to have some fun. The timing couldn't be better. Now, for those of you who come, remember, I love to help you see, feel and think in new ways. I can't thank you enough for coming. Refer to us anybody you'd like to hear on our podcast. We are getting booked up for the rest of the year and so sooner is better. My new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success is doing extremely well. It's full of wisdoms and people are learning. We often say, turn a page and change your life. Who knew? The book has an energy and a force well beyond being a book. There's more. You're smiling. The books aren't books, are they? Srikumar Rao: Books are in books. Books have a life force in them, and they reach out and grab the persons who are right for them. I could not agree with you more. Andi Simon: Couldn't say it better than you have. So I'm going to say goodbye. Let's say have a great day. Please turn your observations into innovations. Don't wait around. The world is waiting for your new ideas. Bye bye now. Srikumar Rao: Let's go further than that, Andi. Have a wonderful rest of your life. Andi Simon: I love it. Everyone's cup should be overflowing like yours and mine. Thank you.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

The more diverse your organization, the more successful it will be Today I bring to you a most fascinating and consequential woman leader, Melissa Andrieux. Born and bred in Queens, New York, Melissa became a prosecutor, then Queens District Attorney, then civil litigator. She is now Chief Diversity Officer at the law firm Dorf Nelson & Zauderer. She is also Chief Client Relations Officer, and is tapping into her extensive experience in marketing, business development and recruitment to drive business growth within the firm by establishing a culture of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. What's more, she helps other firms bring DEI&B into their own cultures. Melissa is not only a trailblazer but a beacon for others to emulate. Do enjoy. Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our podcast It's never too late. Don't let people tell you that you're only good at one thing. Just because you're good at it doesn't mean you should keep doing it.  Yes you should have a plan, but don't get so fixed on it that you miss the opportunities that come.  You need diverse perspectives within your organization, because the clients out there are so diverse. They can pick and choose who they want to work with, who they want to give their money to, and if they're not seeing representation at your organization or at your business, they're going to go elsewhere. Diversity is a reference, a representation of different cultures, different backgrounds, different races, sexual orientations. Diversity can also be the differences in education, socioeconomic background, marital status. People often think that it's just racial or gender, but that's not it. There are so many different aspects to diversity. It's what makes us different and unique. Equity at its basic level is about fairness and leveling the playing field. Contrary to what some people think, it's not about taking from one group to give to another group. It's about making adjustments to imbalances. It's really about fairness.  Inclusion is related to belonging. Inclusion is, you're being invited to the party to play, you're being given a seat at the table, you're being considered. And as a decision maker, as a colleague, your voice is being heard. If we do not start with the basics, the foundations, and understand why people feel a certain way, why people think that they need to gravitate towards their own groups, their own culture, then we're never going to get to where we need to be. It's all about knowledge, education and understanding. When it comes to DEI, the leader is instrumental because nothing can be done without the leader's buy-in. You can connect with Melissa by LinkedIn or email: mandrieux@dorflaw.com. More stories of women making DEI a reality, not just an idea Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let's Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen Rohini Anand—Can Businesses Create Cultures Based On True Diversity, Equity and Inclusion? Andie Kramer—Can “Beyond Bias” Take Your Organization To Great Heights? Maria Colacurcio—Stop The Revolving Door. Help Your Employees Embrace A Diverse And Equitable Workplace. Businesses Must Sustain Diversity And Inclusion For Women Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I'm Andi Simon and as you know, as my frequent followers who come to watch our podcast, I'm here to be the guide and the host to take you off the brink. Our job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And in order to do that, you have to listen to people who have changed. Change is painful. Your brain hates me. But don't run away. Today we're going to have a great, great time. I have with us today Melissa Andrieux who's an attorney whom I met at a wonderful party. And she has really given me some perspective on something that I think is important for us to share. She's smiling at me. Here's a little bit about her background and then she's going to tell you about her own journey. Melissa is an experienced litigator. She leveraged her background in law to lead Dorf Nelson & Zauderer, the law firm, in their initiatives as chief diversity officer. She's also the firm's chief client relations officer, and she's tapping into her extensive experience in marketing, business development and recruitment to drive business growth within the firm. But what's really important is, she's gone from being a litigator to being an expert in the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging professional space. So she's helping the firm help other firms begin. And this is my world: see, feel and think in new ways so they can begin to understand why having a lot of diversity of all kinds, including cognitive diversity and listening to each other is important, and understand how to include people in things that you might have not thought they were part of. Melissa, thank you for joining me today. Melissa Andrieux: Well, thank you for having me, Andi. It's a real pleasure to be on your show. Andi Simon: Well, it was a real pleasure to meet you when we did the book launch at Josie's. I asked people if they wanted to share their wisdoms and Melissa had a story she wanted to tell. She's going to tell it again today. But first, who is Melissa? Tell us about your journey, please. Melissa Andrieux: Well, when you called me up to tell my story, I was a little shocked. I hadn't planned on being called upon. But I love sharing my story. I was born and bred in Queens. I am a lawyer, as you said. And I came to that profession kind of, I didn't have mentors in my life who were lawyers or judges. I learned by watching TV what was interesting. That's why I chose my profession and what was on TV? You're a prosecutor. You are a criminal defense lawyer. So I chose the prosecution route. I always wanted to be a Queens District Attorney, and I became one. I loved that job. I represented the people of the State of New York, the county of Queens, and as most people in government, we move on into civil practice. And then I moved into civil litigation. I did that for a very long time. You may find that shocking, but I did it for 12 years at a firm and then I moved to Dorf Nelson & Zauderer, which was then Dorf Nelson. Now it's Dorf Nelson & Zauderer. And I did that for a while, and it's kind of sad looking back on it, but I did it for such a long time when I didn't really enjoy it, but I didn't know what else was out there. I had no clue what to do with this law degree. So I just kept on doing litigation, and it got to the point where I started speaking with people at the firm, and I was told that this opening for marketing and business development was available. And I said, well, I've never done either. I'm a litigator, I'm a lawyer. But then it got to the point where I was just candidly miserable. I didn't want to get out of bed, I didn't want to go to work. So I said, you know, let me try the position, and I'm not a failer. I don't like to fail. So I said, I'm going to put my heart and soul into it. And I started learning about the business side of law, which I had no idea that law was a business. I thought you just went to court, the depositions, blah blah blah, but I found it very interesting. I was meeting clients, I was meeting prospective clients, I was learning about the business. And then that developed into marketing, which opened a whole new world for me. And with the marketing, I was looking at other law firms, I was looking at businesses, and the DEI aspect clicked. I mean, as you can see, I'm a woman of color in the legal profession, which another story is really not as diverse as should be, but we'll leave that for another time. So I started looking internally at what we could do to make the law firm better, more inclusive, more attractive to candidates. We wanted to hire people. So what do you do? So I spoke with leadership. I had to get their buy-in or else this would never work. And the first thing that we did is, we started a Diversity and Inclusion Council. And I hand-picked the members, and we just had candid conversations about what was going on at the firm, what they wanted to see change, and I studied. It was not easy. I spoke with people in the DEI space. I found the experts, I read, and it got to the point where I was being called upon to do panels and advise people on their own DEI journeys. I mean, it wasn't a quick thing, unfortunately. It took a lot of hard work. I had a lot of mentors and sponsors in my corner. Luckily, I'm one of those individuals who actually found people who wanted to invest in me, and that's kind of how I ended up here. I know that a lot of people, and I've heard this, think that the law firm hand-picked the Black attorney to be the DEI officer, but I assure you that it's not the case. I wanted this role. I advocated for this role, and I believe that I'm doing a very good job with the role. It's not done. It's hard work. And we continue every day to do the important work. Andi Simon: Let's reflect for a moment, which is how I think our listeners or our viewers want to pick your brain, because there have been a number of articles that have come out about how companies, large and small, are de-emphasizing the work of DEI or the Department of DEI. I'm not quite sure, being an anthropologist, why you need a department of it and who they put there. But, it's a very important part of transforming the way we live together. And it's both inside and outside. It changes how people come to work, what they expect of each other, how we listen to each other. And here, give them some of your own, both learning and experiences, because while they didn't pick you, they were wise enough to select you and to open up a space to let you go. I'm curious about that first group that you pulled together and how you managed to get them thinking. So give us a little of how did Melissa do it and how others might as well. Melissa Andrieux: So the how-to is: I decided to leave leadership out of these council meetings because I felt that in order for me to get a true sense of how people were feeling, I couldn't have the partners in these meetings because then people would feel like they cannot be honest. And that was the first thing that we did. And then I took the feedback. I took the information, and I looked at our policies. I looked at the procedures, the internal information that the firm has. And then I went to leadership and I said, this is what we can do. Let's do X, Y, and Z. Let's look at our policies. Are they gender neutral? Do they apply to everyone across the board? And we started slowly but surely. And as I say to everybody, DEI is in the long run. You cannot expect to finish DEI in a week, a month or even a year. It's an ongoing process. So that's how I started my DEI initiatives at the firm. Andi Simon: You spoke about having mentors and sponsors. Clearly you had teammates because as you think about it, this requires people to stop and rethink their story. And the story of the firm they're in. Their livelihood is dependent upon it, but also their personal experiences and what's happening. So as they were working with you, were there some key issues? I can hear your policy changes, but policies don't do much if people don't do much. So what kinds of things were you beginning to implement? Melissa Andrieux: So candidly, of course, as with any new initiatives, there is a little bit of pushback. So we had to get the team members at the firm on board and explain to them why this was important, why the time was now. And, it's not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect. But people do understand why diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging is important. I mean, the thing is, you want to attract talent. You want the firm to continue to grow. And the way that we do that is bringing diverse perspectives into the law firm, bringing different people into the law firm, because neurodiversity, everybody comes from a different place in their lives. Their thinking is not the same as, let's say, somebody who's been here forever. You want to bring in fresh blood. And so when they started to understand the business reason behind this, they started to really buy into what we were doing. And they embrace it and they welcome it at this point. Andi Simon: One of the women I met recently is a Vassar professor who had a bunch of faculty go to court about equal pay for equal jobs. And of course, being a former academic, I remember well how they hired men at different salaries than the women and they came in with less experience. And that's at a female college. Come on. So give us a little bit of a breakdown because there's diversity, equity, equal pay for equal work, equal position, equal opportunity, inclusion. And inclusion and belonging are a little bit different. Give us a little bit more detail. I think it would be helpful. Melissa Andrieux: Sure. So diversity is a reference, a representation of different cultures, different backgrounds, different races, sexual orientations. Diversity can also be the differences in education, socioeconomic background, marital status is diversity. People often think that it's just racial or gender, but that's not it. There are so many different aspects to diversity. It's what makes us different and unique. Andi Simon: Somebody once said to me, we're all diverse. And I said, that's great. We're all unique. Go ahead.  Melissa Andrieux: And that's what makes the world a great place to live. Imagine living with everybody who's like you. I mean, I think that would be pretty boring. So that's diversity. Equity at its basic level, equity is about fairness and leveling the playing field. Contrary to what some people think, it's not about taking from one group to give to another group. It's about making adjustments to imbalances. It's really about fairness.  Inclusion is kind of related to belonging. But I look at them as two different concepts. So to me, inclusion is, you're being invited to the party to play, you're being given a seat at the table, you're being considered. And as a decision maker, as a colleague, your voice is being heard. Andi Simon: You mean you can say something in a meeting and people can hear you? Melissa Andrieux: Exactly, exactly. They listen to you. They might not buy what you say, but they give you the opportunity to be seen and to be heard. And to me, belonging is an individual's feeling that you feel that you are connected to the community that you belong to, that you can be yourself with the people that you're around you. Andi Simon: You find that you know humans. I'm an anthropologist. Humans are very tribal. Yes, they look at the world that they're moving into, such as a workplace. Do I belong here? And it is everything from the tangible: Am I dressed right? Do I look right? Will people look me in the eye and trust that I make good decisions? Plus all of the intangibles that are there that often I don't hear people talking about, which disturbs me because inclusion without belonging isn't cool. I did work for a university once and all the students at a conference we were holding sat at tables with others where they belonged, but none of them were diverse. And then they literally stood up and said to the administration, you think you've built diversity, but we are really in enclaves with our tribes. And yes, the whole place may have diversity, but we don't feel like we're diverse. We feel like we have a tribe to belong to, and that's comfortable for us. But it may be uncomfortable for you. It was a very profound conversation about what these words mean. Melissa Andrieux: It is. So I do some consulting, DEI consulting as part of my duties. And one of the things that I always start my programs with is defining what diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and accessibility mean. Because if we don't understand these core concepts, we're not going to understand anything. So I truly think that if people do not start with the basics, the foundations, and understand why people feel a certain way, why people think that they need to gravitate towards their own, their own groups, their own culture, then we're never going to get to where we need to be. It's all about knowledge, education and understanding. Andi Simon: And an openness to want to know more about the other.  Melissa Andrieux: Seriously. Andi Simon: Ask questions and be happy when you can sit together at lunch and share. How's life? Humans are human and nobody likes to be the whistleblower or the soloist. They want an orchestra where they can all play their instruments, but play them together with a good conductor. How important is the conductor? The leader? Melissa Andrieux: Oh, wow. When it comes to DEI, the leader is instrumental because nothing can be done without the leader's buy-in. And I truly believe that. If so, Jon Dorf, Jonathan Nelson, and Mark Zauderer, they are the leaders of the firm, if they did not embrace the concepts of DEI, what I am doing at the firm would never succeed. It would just be some box that you're checking. You know, your documents. But because it's something that they truly believe in, it's in the fabric of the firm. Long before I got here, it just wasn't apparent until I got here, I suppose. If you don't have the leaders who have your back, we're going to fail. Andi Simon: Well, do they do intentional things in order to broaden their own comfort with a diverse workforce and with diverse clients? I mean, do they live the promise? Melissa Andrieux: Absolutely, absolutely. One of the things that we do is: we started a scholarship at Pace University. It's called the Beth S. Nelson Memorial Scholarship, and we wanted it to go to a woman embarking on a second career in law. And it's in honor of Jonathan Nelson's mom, who was a teacher and then she went into law. So that is something that the firm does in order to show its commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion. We want to bring up the next generation. We want to give these women who are embarking on these second careers the opportunity to get in the law and graduate on time, and that's one of the ways that we do it. Another way that we show our commitment, that the partners show their commitment, is: they embrace every single client, regardless if you're black, white, LGBTQ. You know you deserve equal treatment when you come into Dorf Nelson & Zauderer LLP and you need representation, never turned away. Andi Simon: I think that it's really a model for others to both hear about and to learn about. You also work with clients and how do you bring the purpose and mission out to them as a consultant or as an attorney or a little of both? Melissa Andrieux: I wear many hats, Andi, I gotta tell you. So, being that I am a lawyer and working at a law firm doing business development, that has helped me tremendously when I go out there and I network because I understand the language. I know what clients want from their attorneys and what they don't want. So I'm able to talk to them as they need to be spoken to. And I also do consulting, which kind of develops organically as well. I go out and I do these panels. I go to these networking events and people ask me what I do. Somebody said, Will you do consulting for us? And obviously I said yes, because I love to do that. I love to teach and help other organizations grow and start their DEI journeys with the foundations, and then we move on from there as their needs become apparent, as whatever they need. Andi Simon: So as you're looking out there, you're seeing some trends that are both interesting or disturbing to you. Melissa Andrieux: Some interesting trends are that a lot of the firms that have started their DEI, they're continuing it, which I'm so happy about, even post- the Supreme Court decision. They are doubling down on their DEI initiatives, which I'm so happy to see because we cannot go backwards. We absolutely cannot go backwards. It takes the courage of these leaders to say we are going to forge forward. We're not going to let anything stop us, because it's also good business. Having a diverse workforce is good business. I always say, if you want to attract more clients, you need to have your organization reflect those clients that are coming to you for help. And one of the disturbing trends is, people who are using the Supreme Court decision as an excuse to not continue their DEIB initiatives, or those that say, we've reached the endgame, we can stop now. Unfortunately, that is not how you look at the DEI. I wish that were the case where we no longer needed these initiatives, but unfortunately they must continue and we are not done. We are never done. So to those organizations that think that it's okay to stop, I caution you. Andi Simon: But, you know, it's an interesting philosophical question because it's a gig to them. It isn't fundamental. It isn't transformative. It is a way of thinking about people or business. It's something that seemed to be cool to do, like ESG [environmental, social and governance], you know, pay a little attention to the environment. We're social creatures. We live in a very complex society and don't shortchange yourself by letting others put you into some box. Take the initiative and see why it's so important. I mean, women who lead lead companies in very good ROI, their returns are there and the people stay and they become places one wants to work. And that's not inconsequential, is it? Melissa Andrieux: It's not. People gravitate to people who are like them. So I always use this as an example. I will attract a different type of client than, let's say, a John Dorf or a Jonathan Nelson. I will attract the women. I will attract the people of color. I mean, not to say that they won't, but we're just going about business development and recruitment differently. That's why you need diverse perspectives within your organization, because the clients out there are so diverse. They can pick and choose who they want to work with, who they want to give their money to, and if they're not seeing representation at your organization or at your business, they're going to go elsewhere. So I think it's a really good practice to have so many different perspectives within your firm going out there representing your organization. Andi Simon: Often when I do workshops, I remind the CEOs in the group that 13 million companies are owned by women. And there's a tremendous amount of effort to get women, women of color or people with diverse backgrounds into the supply chain, right into businesses so they can be in the supply chain. They're looking for gender and gender fair. Johanna Zeilstra‘s company Gender Fair is trying to establish it as a standard, not as an afterthought, and this is sort of a very important time for us not to let us go backwards. And not make it hard. I mean, I don't think this is hard work. It's important work. But I am just thrilled that you're on this podcast because I think that many people aren't really aware of the challenge and the opportunities that are before them. Is it easy? No. Should you do it? Absolutely. And will it help you and your purpose, your meaning, your business, your happiness grow. Aha! Oh, God. Melissa, it should be easier. Tell the listener as we're just about ready to wrap up, give them 1 or 2 things that they should focus on. I always like Oprah's small wins. If you're going to get somewhere and don't try to move the battleship a little at a time, but know where you're going. And let's assume that what you want to build is a really exciting organization that embraces diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging intentionally and intelligently. And that's going to help your business grow. Now, if they're going to start and they can see that 1 or 2 things you think should be important for them to do in a small win style. Melissa Andrieux: So before I answer that question, Andi, you reminded me the firm, the law firm, is Gender Fair certified, and we're actually one of the first law firms to be gender fair certified. So that's another way that we show to the world that the partners are putting their money where their mouth is. So I wanted to put that out there before I forget.  Andi Simon: Little push for Gender Fair, because it's a great way for you to demonstrate that you care about the right things in the right way. So that's one of the 2 or 3 things you want them to small win by. But learn more. And we can certainly introduce you to Gender Fair and its leadership. That's terrific Melissa. Please, some other things. Melissa Andrieux: So from my personal journey, I want to share with your audience that it's never too late, as I know it's a little cliché, but for me, I always thought that I could never leave. I thought it was too late for me to unlearn being an attorney. Unlearn being a litigator. But then when I opened up my mind and decided finally that I was ready to make the move, I said, you're going to do it. You're going to be great at it. And it was a long process, but I did it. So one of my things, one of the things that I always say to myself and to the young attorneys or folks that I meet in the world, is that it's never too late. Don't ever be pigeonholed. Don't let people tell you that you're only good at one thing. And I had a lot of naysayers in my life, not to be a Debbie Downer, but a lot of people thought that I had lost it when I made the career change, and because I was so good at what I was doing. Well, just because you're good at it doesn't mean you should keep doing it. So never too late. Ever. Andi Simon: You know, it's so interesting. I met you at a book event for our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And I've been doing podcasts with a number of the women who are in the book. There are 102 women, 500 wisdoms, and they all are sharing a good deal about their own life's journey. Now, Lorraine Hariton we did the other day and she said no, there was no straight line. I was dyslexic, and I managed to realize I was really good at math. And from there I got into computers early, and then I was in Silicon Valley, and then I went to raise money for Hillary and I said, um, no straight line, is there, no straight line, no straight line. And in some ways, that's the exciting part about being a smart person, I'll say a smart woman, but a smart person, right?, where you can see the opportunities. One of the wisdoms I love there is: sure you should have a plan, but don't get so fixed on it that you miss the opportunities that come.  I'm a big serendipity person, so it's just listen. And here Melissa stood up at an event and said something and I introduced her and I said, please come and speak on our podcast. And I'm just thrilled that you were here today. If people want to reach you and talk to you more, put you on a panel or help you help them, where's the best place? We will have it on the blog, of course, but sometimes they hear you and it sticks. Where should they reach you? Melissa Andrieux: Well, I'm at Dorf, Nelson and Zauderer. My email is mandrieux@dorflaw.com and the website is DorfLaw.com. You'll find me there. Andi Simon: Good. This has been a great, great conversation. Every time I do these, I learn more and more about wonderful women who are really transforming our society and themselves. You, the company you work for, the people you work with, and I'm happy too. So let me wrap up for those of you who come and send me your emails and push out all of our podcasts. Last I looked, we're in the top 5% of global podcasts, and in some places like South Africa, we're really high. And it's sort of like, really? So you never know where you are. So the message today is: take your heart and follow it a bit. You never know what's in it for you. My books, of course, are on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local bookseller. Women Mean Business is a fascinating book. I'll turn around and I will bring it over here because as you look at a book, you begin to realize, it's my third book, and the other two were all Amazon best sellers and award winners, but each book has a different insight. And so as you open it, I mean, I love Kay Koplovitz, not by chance, I opened it by chance. They teach you something, and I often say that a book has a fingerprint, and the fingerprint gives it a uniqueness, but its power is inside. And so as the book is opened at all of our events, and if you'd like an event, please let me know. What happens is something magical. Kay Koplovitz said at one event, think fast and act fast. And she said: if I had time to analyze all the things I had to make decisions about, I'd never make a decision. And I said to myself, you know, as an entrepreneur, I thought fast and acted fast and that's how we learn from others. We get inspired by them. And it does spark our success with new ideas that we know aren't so crazy. It's fun. So thank you again for coming. It's been a pleasure. And we'll see you next week as we post all of our great podcasts. Enjoy the journey. Thanks, Melissa. I'll say goodbye now. Melissa Andrieux: Thank you, Andi, for having me. Andi Simon: It's a pleasure.   WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Learn how to escape or even avoid crushing student debt  I am beyond thrilled to bring to you a remarkable young women, Bri Franklin, who co-founded the non-profit The Prosp(a)rity Project to help others avoid the massive amount of debt she incurred by attending an expensive college and being ignorant of the student loan consequences. She could have let the financial burden she experienced after graduation defeat her, but she decided to defeat it. Over many years she has worked tirelessly to pay off almost all of her debt. Now her mission is to help others in the same boat. Listen in, be inspired, and please share far and wide. Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our conversation: Young people: think very carefully about who you want your future self to be, and make sure that the you of 10 or 20 years from now thanks you and is appreciative for the actions that you take today. Taking out loans have the potential to either upgrade your life or set you far behind the eight ball. Bri: If I could do it all over again, I absolutely would have heeded the advice of being very careful before just blindly signing any paperwork. College used to close the gap between socioeconomic groups, but now unfortunately, because of some bad acting, it has become the opposite and is now growing the wealth gap between socioeconomic classes and race communities. Predatory lending is subprime lending, taking advantage of a customer for the sake of financial gain. It's basically taking advantage of customer and consumer ignorance, which tends to adversely impact people in black and brown communities. Bri's hope is to educate young people and their parents through the educational system long before they make college loan decisions. Want to connect with Bri? You can find her on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and her website The Prosp(a)rity Project. More stories of courageous entrepreneurs making a real difference in people's lives: Hamilton Perkins—An Inspiring Entrepreneurial Success Story Theresa Carrington—Transforming Impoverished Artisans Into Entrepreneurs  Lynette Guastaferro—Transforming How Teachers Teach In Over 700 Urban Schools Ivy Gordon—Providing A Powerful Voice To The Sexually Abused Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I'm Andi Simon. Remember, my job is to get you off the brink. And the way I like to do that is to help you listen to people, or see them if you're watching the video, who can help you really understand the challenges in front of us in these fast changing times, and how you can see, feel and think about them with a fresh perspective. I like that fresh lens because unless you see somebody who's addressing a problem, you really don't understand the words, even if you read about it or maybe watched a video. There's something very personal about some of the challenges that we're facing that you might be as well. And so how do you address them? So I met Bri Franklin, and Bri came to one of our book launch events for Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And I must tell you that the book tour has been extraordinary as well. I'm enjoying the people we meet there. So she and I spoke afterwards. Let me give you a bit of a biography of her bio, and then she'll tell you much more about her own journey. And I think it's an important one that you understand. Bri Franklin is a businesswoman, philanthropist and student debt expert and thought leader with a passion for the socioeconomic and holistic empowerment of Black girls and women. And I think you're going to think about this for all girls and women, but particularly women of color who are dealing with things in a particular fashion. Having taken on a financial burden that eventually ballooned to nearly $120,000 in student debt through her undergraduate studies at Dartmouth College, Bri developed an acute appreciation for the challenges many student debt holders experience, including their diminished ability to establish financial independence, take advantage of personal freedoms, or launch a business venture. There was an article I was reading today about how the student debt for the generation who's coming into the markets today is limiting their ability to buy a car. Today, a car is so expensive, it's often as expensive as buying someplace to live. And 52% of the young people are living at home, not necessarily because they want to, because it's impossible to find a place they can afford even if they share it. So our economy and our society is very challenging for young people because of the student debt and the inability to get past it. In recognizing the extent to which other Black women in particular experience adversity at the hands of the $2 trillion student debt crisis and the lack of financial literacy, particularly not knowing what it means, not knowing what to do about it, Bri formed The Prosp(a)rity Project as a solution for eradicating the systemic barriers. Her work has been profiled in outlets such as Forbes, BuzzFeed, Authority Magazine, and Thrive Global, and she's attracted support from audiences worldwide, generating nearly $400,000 in revenue. But I think this is a more complicated and serious opportunity for you to understand what's happening, how it's impacting lots and lots and lots of young people, particularly Black women, and what we need to do to teach them how to be literate, but also how to use it wisely. Even businesswomen tell me that they don't understand the finances and they don't go after capital. So this is a big long term opportunity for us to educate them. Thank you for joining me today. Bri Franklin: Oh my gosh. Well, your intro was incredibly flattering. Thank you so much for making space and the opportunity for me to be a guest today. Andi Simon: You are a beautiful and brilliant woman. I'd like you to share with the audiences your own journey because as you shared it with me, I went, oh my gosh, we have to have you on our podcast so people can appreciate that, that nothing is a straight line from here to there. And your journey is not unique. There are many others just like you, but yours is the one we're going to focus on. Who is Bri Franklin and what has been your journey so far? You're a young person, but it's been a complicated one. Bri Franklin: It certainly has. I like to say that I had a very atypical post-graduation trajectory, and it was very much a jungle gym and not a straight line or ladder. So I came out of Dartmouth. I was the first in my family not to go to college but to go Ivy League. So I grew up in the Deep South, from Atlanta, Georgia, and always performed at the top of my class, student honor roll, principal's list. You get the idea. And everyone just always told me, you've got to go to the Ivy League. You know, that's where it's at for you and that's where you're going to thrive and excel. And so I really internalized that and thought, this is the only way to really honor my academic inclinations to the best of my ability. I started with one of the schools in my top choices and I ended up getting accepted, and it was between Dartmouth and Emory University. So, again, as an Atlanta native, it was a very close call because Emory was offering quite a bit of financial aid to the tune of all but $5,000 in grants, and that would have applied across all four years. So if I had chosen there, I would have walked away with no more than $20,000 in debt. That's if I hadn't done work-study or anything to offset my obligation versus the $100,000 that I came out of Dartmouth with. And the deciding factor was, I was looking at the opportunity of going to an Ivy League and being in those circles, and the 18-year-old version of myself was also very much motivated by getting away from my parents and being able to break camp and go do my own thing. Not the best decision or reason for accruing so much debt, but that is how my story goes. So I came out of Dartmouth in 2017, as I mentioned, with $100,000 in debt principal, and then it quietly ballooned to about $116,000 within two years because of both interest and ignorance, on my part, and because of that ignorance, I also aimlessly wandered into other kinds of debt, and that included credit cards, and a car that was way outside my budget. It impacted every level of my life, socioeconomically and mental health, and put me behind the eight ball in terms of achieving the typical milestones that young twenty-somethings often have made in the past, with little to no friction. So, and having dealt with that personally, I just became incredibly empathetic to others in that situation because it showed me that this was not the result of anything that I had done as far as breaking rules. In fact, I was trying to follow the rules, but unfortunately it worked against me because of what I now discovered is called predatory and subprime lending. So that's exactly what my work focuses on resolving at a systemic level. Andi Simon: When you went off, I'm curious, we all have kids and grandkids who are looking at college. And were you knowledgeable about student loans when you made the decision to go to Dartmouth without the grants as opposed to Emory with the grants? And was the reputation that much more powerful, did the colleges help you at all? Bri Franklin: I get asked this a lot because people really were stuck trying to figure out why would I take the route that I did when Emory was literally making it so much more financially feasible? And that was because at 18, I call it the Know-It-All factor. A lot of teenagers are guilty. I think that's almost the rule of thumb is that being adolescent and teenage, you just get in your own way sometimes and you think you know everything and that you've got all the answers. And that was really how I functioned, because no one had explicitly taught me what all was at stake. You know, people just said things that were very nebulous, like, that's a lot of debt. But I also would hear things like, oh, but you're going to Dartmouth and you're going to get hired immediately, and you'll be able to write your own ticket. That was everyone's favorite phrase: guidance counselors, teachers, relatives. A lot of people were just so convinced that by virtue of attending a school of that pedigree, that was automatically going to translate into an optimized advantage in the job market and increase my earning potential. And so I just absorbed those promises and I didn't really think to probe beneath the surface and take a step back and consider. Based on having majored in English literature, not having done a traditional internship, I didn't know the first thing about networking. I didn't know how to play those Ivy League cards. So I really came out almost with no measured advantage right away. And, you know, for all intents and purposes, I think in those initial years, I could have been off to a stronger start coming out of Emory, but it was definitely a delayed gratification thing. And at these stages of my career, in my life, the Dartmouth Circle has come back full circle, and it's now paid off in dividends in terms of the opportunities and the rooms that it puts me in. But I had to actively work for that, it was very much something I had to go out of my way to make up for lost time on, and it cost me quite a bit in the interim. Andi Simon: What's so interesting is that you're a smart woman, and yet understanding the culture that you're going into, there was no way to imagine it. You were imparting upon it your own sense of how it was going to benefit you. Even being an English major without having an internship, you were having a great time being you, and it wasn't necessarily a good set up for the future, even if you didn't have the debt. You're missing something. We talk in business about mentors or sponsors. Well, here's an 18 year old who needed somebody who could guide you through your labyrinth and the jigsaw that you were going to be going through so you came out wiser, not poorer. So it's interesting, as the listener is listening or viewing, how did you get yourself past the $116,000 in debt? Were you able to figure out a way out of it? Because I have a hunch that's part of Prosp(a)rity Project‘s foundation. Bri Franklin: So the short answer is, I'm still working through it. Unfortunately, I have not completely cleared it. However, I have made progress. I paid off about $40,000 of those various debts. So the total number, including the car, the credit cards, at the time was about $123,609. And I say, zero common sense. So I was able to shave off about $40,000, and I rolled up my sleeves and I threw pride completely out of the window. And in 2019, I say that was my aha! I had a moment. I'd gotten so far behind on my loans, which for my private lenders alone were about $750 a month, irrespective of income. So because I came out and I was working temp jobs and contracts, I mean, I was making $15 an hour on a good day. And so I say my income was inconsistent at best, nonexistent at worst. And the fact that my debt was constant regardless of what I was earning, that was, of course, very challenging to overcome. And just even at a practical level, having conversations with the lenders on the phone, the representatives, trying to appeal to them, get them to cut me a break, get them to give me some extra flexibility, it didn't always go over well. And so it all blew up in the summer of 2019, where my credit had taken a hit by about 150 points overnight because I fell more than two months late on my loans. And that also spilled over to my co-signers, my dad and step mom at the time; both of them had signed on to those initial private loans, and that had consequences for their credit. And it put us at odds interpersonally. And those relationships were always very valuable to me growing up over the years. So it was just a cobweb of dysfunctionality and heartache, really. And so that was helpful, though, because it was able to just reroute me and caused me to take stock of my situation and just decide, as I said at the event, it may have started with these external factors. “This situation is terrible and I am irritated by it.” But even though it didn't start with me, it ends with me. And so that's why I rolled up my sleeves. I got two part-time jobs. I worked retail, which as an Ivy League graduate, takes a lot of humility to suck up the courage in your hometown, of all places, where you're running into classmates and teachers and all kinds of people who are like, wow, that's where Dartmouth landed you. It was very much a pride component to it. But I was so motivated to get out of debt, I really didn't care. I was like, if people are going to judge me for this, that's their problem. I'm getting money by ethical means, and it's building character, which it really did. So that was the foundation. I did what Dave Ramsey calls the debt snowball, and I started with the smallest balance listed out regardless of interest. And then I began chipping away. And because it does work as a psychological boost, when you can see the numbers go away, you feel like I can do this. And it doesn't feel like I'm draining the ocean with a teaspoon. This money does count for something. It is making a difference. It sets you up for progressive wins. And so I continued to keep those jobs through the end of that year, and I kept Orangetheory when I moved to the Bay area in 2020. I stayed and I enjoyed the increased pay difference because of the California minimum wage being twice of Georgia's. But I was able to stay with family friends and not have to pay rent. So I got all the upside and none of the financial downside, and I just aggressively knocked those loans down. And then once Covid hit, then it was starting from scratch all over again. And then once I started up The Prosp(a)rity Project, that summer was when I finally felt like my purpose was walking into place and I could see myself continuing down this route. And if all went well, being able to eventually climb out of debt along with the people that we helped. Andi Simon: You know, I'm a visual person, and your story almost looks like a movie. Hopefully one day it's real on the one hand, but I'm listening to you share with us the agony, the catalytic moment, the moment at which you realize that I can't keep going like this. The impact you had on your family. None of this should be missed by the listener or the viewer because this is a very smart woman who found herself in a difficult situation that she's working out of. It's not like she won the lottery but it is without a whole lot of help. It's not as if everybody's walking around on those, either the credit card or the car, but it is. And she's also a representative of the generation that is finding themselves very much like herself in difficulty. You know, I'm a smart person. How did this happen? And once you got past that, how this happened, did it? Then how do I do something about it? Well, I can work hard. But now you've got Prosp(a)rity Project. Are you working on anything else? Or is this your business that you're going to turn into a solution? Bri Franklin: Yes! So Prosp(a)rity Project, this was my 24/7 life commitment for the last three and a half years. So we started up in the summer of 2020, and that took us all the way through this past December. And so we're now at an exciting point of pivot where we're using the last three and a half years of expertise, leadership, partnerships, just all of the gains and the wins that we've been able to accomplish collectively and through our work and turning that into an even more forward thinking solution. So for context, Prosp(a)rity Project‘ is a 501 C3 nonprofit. The mission is leveling the socioeconomic playing field for communities most susceptible to and impacted by predatory lending. And in our first iteration of work, that was exclusively serving debt constrained, college educated Black women. We launched what's called the 35*2 Free initiative, which draws its name from those two guiding statistics: $35 billion of student loan debt, as well as a 35% rate of financial literacy that Black women in the US hold collectively. And so through that program, it's a multi-pronged approach of not just helping that group pay down student loan debt, which we did up to $10,000 per person, but also training them on finance through what we call FinTech. So it's six months of personalized financial guidance to give them a better roadmap for how to manage and steward their money and eventually build wealth, coupled with eight weeks of career development training, where they can put that into practice and then use that to go out for higher paying jobs and pivot into more lucrative industries, etc. And so in doing those pilot runs, we did one virtual in 2022 with 12 women, we did a hybrid in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area last year with eight program members. We now have almost two dozen basically MVP's, that we've been able to coach and get to know personally and turn that into the basis for an app that does the same thing, but to another degree by helping prevent it altogether with teenagers. So we're calling it Cadet Prosperity. And this is taking that IP and all of the user experiences and live journeys of these women, turning it into gamified avatars that can then coach and pay that information forward to middle and high schoolers who are sitting ducks, basically, for more predatory lending and usury. So it's very exciting to bring it full circle and be able to help at critical scale. Andi Simon: Let me see if I can take what you said and play it back so that I fully understand it. First of all, what's predatory lending? You know, let's clarify the words. Bri Franklin: So predatory lending, as I've been explaining it in conversations and defining it through our work portfolio, is basically subprime lending or taking advantage of a customer for the sake of financial gain. So a lot of times that looks like very cryptic and underhanded paperwork or not being completely forthright in the terms, not going to great lengths to really make sure that the user understands what it is they're signing up for. So it's basically taking advantage of customer and consumer ignorance. And that typically tends to adversely impact people in black and brown communities, whose parents or grandparents also were susceptible and didn't know how to train them and break that cycle themselves. So it's basically exploitation in the lending industry. Andi Simon: Um, okay. Good. So understanding that, the other side of it is the ignorance of people to what that means and how to do it. And what you have had is now a dozen approximately folks who have gone through your program, which does two things, one of which is, begins to develop their career skills and the other helps them work off their debt, which if you combine the two, should get them a pathway to, I'll say, prosperity at least, so that they can see the end of the tunnel and celebrate where they're actually going to arrive. And if you don't know where you're going, it's difficult to get there. And now we've turned the nonprofit into a for-profit application for gamification, for younger borrowers. Is that what I hear? Bri Franklin: You summed it up beautifully. Andi Simon: Well, I heard what you said, but I also know sometimes, as the listener is paying attention to it, they don't quite necessarily put all the parts together. And I know that you've gotten on the one hand a training and development program nonprofit is that going to stay around, or are you going to move everything into a for-profit mode? Bri Franklin: In all transparency, that's a decision that we're going to be huddling on in a couple of weeks just to weigh the pros and cons either way. I want it to be completely certain, whichever direction we move it in, so that it wasn't a start-stop, because there's still a lot of merit to keeping the nonprofit intact. But at the same time, in just taking stock of the current fundraising climate, I think, user listeners and audience members who are also in the philanthropic space, we can all collectively agree that 2023 was not a great year. And especially in our case, being a social justice-founded organization that was unapologetically Black, serving for so long, it was a moment in time and certainly not a forever movement.  And so we've seen a lot of appetites go back to pre-George Floyd pre-COVID business as usual. There's a diminished sense of urgency around closing the gap for the black and brown community. So, my inclination is that we will at least just focus our efforts on the for-profit, even if we don't legally retire the nonprofit, just perhaps having it on freeze for the time being until we can reintroduce these initiatives, perhaps through a foundation at some point down the line, once the for-profit is revenue-generating and off the ground. Andi Simon: This is very important to hear, because your business challenge isn't like other business challenges. The not-for-profit side needs funding through different sources than a for-profit side does. Right. And the application is now up and ready to go. And in schools themselves, if I remember you were telling me, not yet. Bri Franklin: The FinTech app, we are in the very early stages, looking to raise pre-seed funding and just building out our initial team. And we do have a target go to market by next January when we would be ready to roll it out, ideally as a first version into schools. But, we definitely got our work cut out for us before then. Andi Simon: I think you've opened up a very different opportunity where individuals, schools, training centers…my head's already thinking about folks who I need to introduce you to, who you get into the high school training milieu and are really concerned about developing those young folks with the right skills and tools to do it. It's very interesting and just curious, strategically, are you thinking of this being something bought by schools or by individuals or by parents? I mean, who's the market? Bri Franklin: So my co-founder and I, we just ironed this out over the last 48 hours. So we're looking at B2B to see, the sell would potentially be to perhaps like a large banking institution, perhaps a tech developer itself like Apple and have it pre-installed on devices that are going to schools from the distribution standpoint and honoring the fact that a lot of school budgets tend to be very shoestring and don't have a ton of money set aside for major app rollouts. It's subsidized largely from school partnerships. We're thinking that it would be one of those two routes as we see it right now. Andi Simon: That's exciting, because if you get the endorsement of a distribution channel like an Apple or something, or even the banks who could really see this as part of their community development initiatives, you get legitimacy and co-branding on it. And that takes it from a startup to something that could have great legs and go further. When you have tested it, have you tested it? I mean, I'm sort of trying to remember what we talked about, but have you tested it among youngsters and do they find it a wonderful game? Bri Franklin: So the game itself is still being developed behind the scenes. However, we have been in touch with their would-be gamers' parents, so we do have some focus groups that we've built out with mothers, fathers, of middle and high schoolers. And again, going back to drawing from my own experience, that know it all factor, we're trying to get the best of both worlds, where we are that conduit for mom and dad, because we realize that a lot of this information is as simple as table talk, dinner table conversation. But there's the lalala, I can't hear you because you raised me sort of thing going on. And so we're trying to solve for that, but also not have it backfire to where it interferes with screentime parameters and household rules, parents keeping kids off of devices past certain hours or things like that. Certainly not letting it slide into an addictive user experience or anything. So we are trying to have those conversations now. So that informs the build out and saves us having to go back and rewrite or take out things once we've already done the heavy lifting. Andi Simon: It's so interesting because everything has its challenges. We have a society where the youngsters are quite not savvy on how to use applications like these. Can we use them to really educate them so that they can be wiser and make better decisions as they're approaching their adulthood? At the same time, that it could interfere with their focus on other studies and other pieces. Bri, this is so profound because the problem isn't a little one. It's a big one. I'm glad you're sharing it with us because I'm not sure how I would learn more about it. It's sort of like, where does this fit into the whole context of what's going on out there? You can hear about, a president wanting to eliminate student debt and then people objecting to it, and it just breaks your heart. To some degree, it is a reflection of our society. Bri Franklin: It is. And that's where we also see the opportunities because it's a knowledge gap on so many levels. And I've done personal crusading, you know, through going in and speaking to companies and trying to build the empathy because so many people put blinders on because they remember how it used to function when they were in college, which is how it was supposed to work. Higher education used to be a gap-closing convention. That was how people were achieving upward mobility in the 40s when the GI Bill was first introduced, that paved the way for the current student debt crisis. It looked nothing like it does now. Student loans were capped at 1,000 USD per year, and it was directly tied to a boost and a measurable advantage in the job market post-graduation that you then use to repay the loans in full, get your mortgage, marry, start a family, and live your most prosperous life. And then, around in the 70s, people started to catch on just how lucrative it really was and how much demand there was. That's when it privatized and opened the floodgates for the hell that we know today. And, you know, the Student Loan Marketing Association became what we know as Sallie Mae. And then there was the lobbying in 2004 that prevented people from being able to discharge their loans through bankruptcy. So there's just been so many factors that are greed and profit driven, as opposed to opportunity and people driven. And so that's where we're coming in to reset the clock and the board and just say, time out, things like this cannot go on. My motto was that every bubble bursts, just like the housing bubble burst. And so many others. We've seen an economic collapse before. I don't think this will be any different. And so that's why we are positioning this as something that is not only innovative, but critically necessary. I've gone so far as to compare it to a vaccine against the virus of predatory lending, or the equivalent of equipping teenagers with a driver's license so that they can legally operate a car. We're saying debt doesn't have to be the enemy. It's the ignorance that creates the problem and has potential to turn it from a tool to a trap. So we're solving for a lot, and it's educational at every turn, which is why we want parents to be on board with us and to not look at this as a tool to create controversy or to challenge their beliefs in a way that undermines their parenting, but rather to bring them up to speed and help them understand what's at stake for their child. Andi Simon: You are a very articulate young woman. Thank you. I loved listening to what you just said because you really understand the complexity of this. There's no simple answer. And you have a passion and a purpose. You understand it and you want to stop it. And I am just honored that you are on our podcast today to share it. Thank you for joining us. It's just so much fun. I think we're about ready to wrap up. A couple of things you want our listeners to remember or our viewers to hear you say: one, two or three things that are really important for youngsters to know and parents to be aware of, and the universities that won't pay attention to right now. Bri Franklin: Yes, because I do have advice for all three groups, but I'll stick to those first two. So for young people, if you're listening, if you hear this in Mom and Dad's car ride or come into it on your own, I would say think so carefully about who you want your future self to be, and you want to make sure that the you of 10 or 20 years from now thanks you and is appreciative for the actions that you take today. Because things as serious as taking out loans have potential to really either upgrade your life or set you far behind the eight ball, and take it from someone who has spent all of her 20s trying to catch up and get back on track to achieve the things that used to be so typical for my age group. If I could do it all over again, I absolutely would have heeded the advice of being very careful before just blindly signing any paperwork. For parents on the other side of that coin, I know that there's a tendency to just say college or bust and to insist that our children, our nieces, our nephews are keeping the family legacy alive by going to our alma maters or just going to college. It's become more of a tradition. But we've got to remember the why again. College used to be unanimously gap closing, and now, unfortunately, because of some bad acting, it's become the opposite and is growing the wealth gap between socioeconomic classes and race communities and everything. And so we want to just make sure we're setting our kids up for success no matter what that educational means looks like. Andi Simon: All right, now I'll let you talk to those colleges. So the warning for them is…? Bri Franklin: Do better. I think that there certainly is a place for academia, and I have great respect for what's come out of colleges: vaccines, academic research, forward-thinking initiatives. And I remember the upsides of my own college experience, but it's just unacceptable to keep driving tuition rates up with no correlation to how that's going to better the student's job experience post-graduation. So I would say that the short of it is that we have to remember that it's about serving people and not gaining profit. Andi Simon: Yes, I agree. What a wonderful podcast to share with our audiences today. I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed meeting Bri Franklin, and I think you should take a look at the Prosp(a)rity Project and see how you, too, can be of help to her and to those who are trying. Now, they're just the two of you, or is it a bigger organization than that? Bri Franklin: So on the 24/7 main buildout it is myself and my co-founder, but we are basically migrating our existing task force from Prosperity Project over to Cadet Prosperity. We've begun to start getting feelers out there for advisors and potential board members. So we're growing quickly. But in terms of the day to day diligence, it is myself and Kaylee for right now. Andi Simon: You're great. Great. Well, I'm honored to have you here today. It's been a pleasure. Let me say goodbye to our audience. Thank you for coming. Remember our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success has just become a really cool book. And I can only tell you that I've written three but this one touches my heart because as I open it, people in the audience say, ah. I actually had a client who yellow marked it all and when I met with her, she went, oh, you've changed my life. It's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble in your local booksellers. I can only tell you that I met Bri through a book tour event at Eileen Rosenthal's in Washington, DC, and every time I do one, I meet some others who say, oh, this is a great book. It's the wisdom of 102 women, and they can't wait to share with you what they've learned and how you can succeed as well. Thanks for joining me today. Bri Franklin: Thank you again for having me. The conversation just went by in a flash, and I look forward to this being the first of many dialogues that we have. Andi Simon: I'm looking forward to it as well. I'm going to stop and say goodbye to all of you who come. You remember you've taken us to the top 5% of global podcasts. I'm honored. Thank you so much. Keep sharing and sharing Bri's so that her message can get out there to parents, kids and everyone else. Bye bye now.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear this incredible story of steadfast bravery and human kindness I am truly honored to bring to you today a very special guest, Panos Manias. A self-made entrepreneur who started his own industrial company in aluminium packaging materials, Panos is an inspirational and visionary businessman. But what we focus on in our interview is his personal story of how kindness and moral obligation saved lives during The Holocaust, and possibly can change the world today. You will feel uplifted and deeply moved, I know I was. Watch and listen to our conversation here More stories of courage and human kindness: Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You? Podcast: Patrik Birkhane—Helping Us Live Healthier, Happier And More Peaceful Lives Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, I'm your host and your guide. And my job is to help you get off the brink, to understand things and see them through a fresh lens. I'm a corporate anthropologist, and I'd love to share with you information from different cultures and times that will help you put into perspective your own situation today, and how to make sense out of it and understand it better. So I'm really honored today to have Mr. Panos Manias with me. Panos is in Greece. He's in Athens. He was introduced to me by a wonderful woman here in New York who wanted me to share his story. Now, Panos's story is set back in the period when the Germans came into Thessalonica and really took over the city. And so I'd like him to begin to understand how to share that with you so that it is held in posterity so we don't lose the story, and that the wonderful actions that he and his family took then are preserved. So let me tell you about Panos. Panos Manias was born in 1934. He was one of five children. He's married now and has two wonderful children and four grandchildren. He holds a bachelor's degree in business, economics and international commerce from the Athens University of Economics and Business. He's a self-made entrepreneur who started his own industrial company in aluminum packaging material in 1965. It's now managed by his two children. Panos, in his professional career, has spanned more than a half a century, and he's proved to be an inspirational and visionary entrepreneur. His personal and business integrity, together with his determination on focusing on personal relationships, has been passed to the next generation of aluminum and continue to be the key drivers of the company's success. Now, Panos is an amazing man, and I know he wants to tell you about the situations when the Germans came into Thessalonica, but what I'd like him to do is begin with his own journey. Tell us about yourself. How did you develop as an entrepreneur? Panos, give us some context to understand your own personal journey here. Can you do that, sir, please? Panos Manias: Yeah. All right. Well, after finishing the American Veterans College, which is an American school and one of the best in the country in Greece, in Athens. I started working for a big company specializing in aluminum. And slowly they appreciated the job I was doing. And they offered me to go into a joint venture with this big company, whom I will never forget, because they really gave me a very good chance in my life. So I started working for them and they appreciated what I was doing, and they offered me to go into a joint venture in aluminum products. And slowly but surely, it was expanding and expanding and expanding. And to make a long story short, after so many years, we are proud to say that we are a company which is 100% export oriented. We export everything all over the world and, thank God, both of my children, when they finished their studies in Greece and the United States, were both Brown University alumni. When they came back, I told them very openly and very clearly, now you are here, what do you want to do? It's up to you. You decide, and I will respect your decision. So they both said they want to continue working for me, I mean, for the company. And they said something which I will never forget. Listen, it's your decision. You are never going to tell me you are not happy. If you are not happy, tell me now. They both agreed. They followed my steps and I must say that they did much, much better than I did. And I'm very proud of it. The story we're talking about starts in and stays where we were living. Before the war, we had the building, we had the big three stories building on our own, and we were living there. And the time was during the German occupation. It was a very difficult life, was very, very difficult, because people were asking questions and this and that and my aunt and my uncle who were living in the cellar, they were partners with my father, who was in Athens. They had both a joint venture in the food industry. So one day he calls my father and he says in Salonika, there is a very good friend of the family, a Jewish family called Caruso. They were both living next to each other in a street in Salonika and were excellent friends together. They were not friends. They were brothers, although one was Jewish, neither was Christian. Every day they were going to meet together to discuss their problems, this and that. Before the war, everything was okay. And then when the German occupation started, everybody froze because they didn't know what would happen. And unluckily the Germans were trying to find out if there were Jewish people in every neighborhood. So one day they go to my father's, to my uncle's house, and they say that they would like to take it, not rent it. They wanted to have an officer living there, a German officer. They were frozen. So this is okay. And they didn't know what to do. So they decided to take the Jewish family in their own home, hide them in an attic, but nobody would see them in the morning. And that's okay. You can now have the home, the home which they knew was Jewish, but they left there. They're not here. I don't know where they are because they disappeared. And the Germans were living next to them. And it was very difficult. Very difficult thing to do. And my uncle wanted to take them out of Salonika again, because in Salonika it was terrible. The Germans were killing Jews by the thousands. It was a genocide. It was incredible. I have to say something. My uncle, my parents and my father, they were very good businessmen, but they were not, as today, educated and things like that. But they had a good straight mind. So he called my father from Thessaloniki, and he said to him, Listen, there is a family here, that we are brothers with them, father and mother and four siblings. So they said they made the plan. First of all, my uncle had very good connections with them. Then probably what they laughed at is the guerrillas who were fighting against the Germans, they issued for them fraud identity cards with the name Angelides. For Angelides, that was the name. And then he said he discussed it with the father and the family left and went to a fishing village very close to this island to hide themselves, waiting for a boat to take them to Athens. The boat was not arriving and not arriving, and the mayor of this small fishing town started asking questions. Who are they? What are they doing? Why are they here? Somebody told them that he was going to call the Germans, that there is a Jewish family living on this island. They were frozen to death. And then they left because the Germans said, if you don't give them up to us, we're going to burn the whole island. They were doing it. Burn the whole island. I'm sorry, village. So the mayor told them, Listen, the whole village is in your hands. So the fact that they said, no, forget it. We are leaving right away. And they left and went back to Thessaloniki. They decided to return to Athens for sure. Then you know, at that time there were no trains, there were just big old buses that were going from Salonika to Athens, which would take ten hours. And he decided after having the fake identity cards to put them on a bus and take them to Athens, where my father was living, my family, so that they would hide in Athens and nobody would know anything about it. My uncle insisted that he send them to go all together. Listen, he said it is a massacre. They killed Jews by the thousands. You must all go together. No, Mr. Carlson said, No, Mr. Manius. No. I'm going to stay here with my wife and the two children. And he sent the other two with a bus. He didn't take no for the reply. So my uncle said, okay, you want to do that? Do that. So with the fake IDs, they went to the bus station. They stayed in the third row and the fifth row, but far apart from each other, so that they wouldn't know that their brother and sister and they were going in Larissa, which is half way from Athens to Thessaloniki, the bus stop for the rest. And the driver, who was not a good man, understood that something was wrong with these children. I don't know how. He went and looked at them and said nothing, and he was going down to report it to the Germans. All of a sudden, and this is something which is unbelievable, one sturdy man, very big, with not a knife but with a stick, stood up and went to the driver and told him something in his ear. And the driver froze to death. And he didn't report to the Germans. He was going to tell the Germans they were Jewish and he would get money for it. So this was a big obstacle. Thank God they continued to Athens, where my family was living, and they were accepted by my family. And they stayed in our house. But, people there started talking. Who are they? What are they doing here and all that? And my father thought of something very smart. In order to have them do something, he said, Listen, I will give you money. You will buy olive oil, which was during the German occupation, it was more than gold. I will give you bottles of oil. You will stay and you will sell them for peanuts and get some money. Not only this, they will say he's a Greek doing some business to make some pocket money. And every day there was a Greek officer of the police passing by, and the guy in the garage gave him one bottle of oil free every day. Every day, every day, every day. After maybe one month, the other policeman got a little bit suspicious. And what is this? So they go and ask him, who are you? What's your name? His name was Angelita. They didn't believe him. Where are you coming from? Listen, I'll take you to the Gestapo and they will take care of you. He took them. He took the boy. And he was going to the Gestapo. And then he asked a policeman to take them to the Gestapo. And I don't know how this happened. The policeman was the same who was getting the oil for free. So he gave back the little boy and he let him free. And the boy asked him, what are you going to say? I said, I slipped and you ran away. So he was saved. He went back to our house where they were living. And then after that, I guess after that they started discussing who these are? Who is that? And my father went a little bit far away and rented a small apartment for them, and they were safe there because nobody knew them. And then they gave them the food and clothes and everything. And then the lady who owned the apartment started getting a little bit curious. Who are they? By that time, the German occupation was finished. The Germans left the country and they were freed.They came back home and they said, we want to go now to the Serengeti to find our parents because the parents were there. So they went to Salonika again and my uncle told them they had to tell them where their parents were. The parents with three other children were caught by the Germans, and they were put on the last train from Thessaloniki.  Some years ago, we had a wonderful, very emotional meeting with the descendants of the Carrasco family in their house. That was maybe ten years ago. Maybe 15 years ago. They invited the whole Carrasco family and the whole Martinez family for dinner at their home, and we were about 35, 40 people. And I will never forget something that the old lady said. She said, of course she raised her glass to say hello to everybody and say, listen, Everybody listen. If there were not the Manias family, nobody would be here. Nobody. Both the Manias and the Carrasco, they would all be dead. This I will never forget. So you know, we tell you all that because I think I have a moral obligation. I think because I'm an old man now. I am 90 years old. And I think I have an obligation to the coming generations to hear this story, to have the same feelings. No matter if he's Jewish or Armenian or Hebrew, I don't care. Human beings. Human beings must behave like human beings. And I hope this is going to be a good heritage to the coming generations. That's why we tell you this story. Andi Simon: The reason this is so beautiful is because at times you worry that humans have forgotten how to be human, and the Manias and Carrasco families are a tribute to what the good in us can do, isn't it? If we can be kind, we can care, we can love each other, and we can help each other thrive. And it's a beautiful story. And Panos, your tribute to your family and to theirs and to everyone is absolutely exquisite. It's beautiful. Your English is very good too, sir. Panos Manias: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Andi Simon: Would you like to say anything at the end here to your sons and daughters and their grandchildren and anything special you would like to end with? Because you've told a beautiful story. But I have a hunch in your heart you just want to hug everybody. Panos Manias: You mean to say something too. Andi Simon: Did you want to say something in the ending to your story.  Panos Manias: Yes, yes. I just want to repeat that as human beings, we have the moral obligation to behave like human beings. And look at the people who are around us not according to the religion or the city, I don't care what they are. They are human beings. And we must behave like human beings. We must have the moral that God, Almighty God, whether it's God or I don't know what the name Almighty gave it to us and we have to respect what we get. And I believe very strongly that really in life you get what you give. You give love, you get love, you give hate, you get hate. So simple. But simple things are difficult to understand sometimes. So I'm very proud that I leave this heritage to my family, and I hope they will have the same mentality to behave like human beings. Human beings.  Andi Simon: This is a beautiful story. I'm honored that you gave us the opportunity to share it. I've been to Greece several times, and I did my research in Greece, and I was in love with Greek people because they embraced the work I was doing to better understand how people embrace change. And this is just a wonderful compliment. So I'm going to pause for a moment and say goodbye to my audience, and then I will come off the tape and we can talk for a moment further. So bear with me for a second, because I want to thank everyone who listened today or watched. And I know Panos is going to be sharing this. So for those of you who are not familiar with our podcast, what we try to do is help you see things through a fresh lens. I will tell you that we live the story that's in our mind. So think about Panos's story and his desire to tell it. It's one thing to have it, it's another thing to want to share it. And by sharing it, hoping to spread his own big heart with others. You're smiling at me, Panos, because this is a gift that you're giving to others, and there's nothing better for their well-being and your own than to share this gift. So I want to thank you all for coming today. If you're watching or listening, and remember that our job is to help you get off the brink and soar. So thank you again. And thank you, Panos and your family for joining us Panos Manias: And do me a favor when you come to Athens, you are going to visit us. Andi Simon: Oh, absolutely. Let's do it quickly. Is it sunny there? Because I need some sun. Panos Manias: Oh, it's beautiful today. Andi Simon: I know, hold on while I say goodbye to everybody. P.S. You can read a more in-depth version of Panos's story here.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how to open yourself up to a world of infinite possibilities As you know, I like a fresh lens. That's what we do as anthropologists. We go out and help you see what's all around you, and sometimes you can't see what's right here. Today, I have a wonderful woman, Roberta Fernandez, who's going to help you do the same thing. Together, we're going to help you realize that change is painful in some ways, but an opportunity for you to transform who you are in a great way. A personal and professional development consultant, Roberta takes your full self and helps you look at it a little bit differently. I love the word development. It isn't a coach. It's how do I help you grow? And how do we take a challenge and address it? Listen in to find out. Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our conversation: You cannot change a culture until the people in it change. Emotion drives all behavior. We all at some point in our lives should “clean out our closet” — get rid of those limiting beliefs and the stuff that really isn't a part of you, and open the door for that higher self. If we're only focused on the problem, that's all we're going to be able to see. We have to focus on the solution, what we want. The story we tell is the life that we create for ourselves. And it's the life that we get stuck in. We stand in our own way, and what we want to do is to be able to open ourselves to this world of infinite possibilities. Most of our thinking is habitual, just automated. When we become aware of how we think and what we feel as an individual, then we can recognize those things in other people. The reason why we want anything is because we think we're going to feel better when we can have it. So even though we don't know the answer to something, we know how we want to feel when we've accomplished it. If you look at any great artist or scientist or inventor or highly successful person in general, they're going to tell you that changing how they think, how they process, and how they see things differently than anybody else is what has contributed the most to their success. You can connect with Roberta on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and her three websites: Roberta Fernandez/AHARA, Conscious Napping and Conscious Napping For Business. You can also email her at roberta@consciousnapping.com. Want more on how to actually bring about real change? Here's a start: Blog: Okay, Okay, I'm Ready To Change. How Do I Do It? Blog: Three Ways Corporate Anthropology Can Help Your Company Change Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It's Necessary! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and Andi Simon, PhD Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And if you come to my podcast, like so many of you do, you know my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And remember, I tell you that because until you see something, it doesn't exist. And if you don't feel it, you don't know how to respond to it. And so my job is to bring you people who, through their stories, will help you think about yourself through a fresh perspective. It's not exactly the right metaphor, but I like a fresh lens. And that's what we do as anthropologists. We go out and help you see what's all around you, and sometimes you can't see what's right here. But today, I have a wonderful woman, and she's going to help you do the same thing. So together, we're going to lift you up and help you realize that change is painful in some ways, but an opportunity for you to transform who you are in a great way. She's smiling. We are very aligned and it's so exciting to meet Roberta Fernandez. I'm going to read her bio a bit as a personal and professional development consultant. It's interesting, when I launched my business, it was as an anthropologist that helps companies and the people inside them change. Not that different, but to be a personal and professional development consultant takes your full self and helps you look at it a little bit differently. She offers programs for individuals and organizations that develop emotional intelligence, EQ, and guides them through a change process to awaken their full potential and realize their higher abilities. She's perfected individual personal development, and that's different from coaching. And I love the word development. It isn't a coach. It's how do I help you grow? And how do we take a challenge and begin to address it? And wellness. And I love self-care and well-being, executive managerial and team corporate training programs, particularly in the area of sustainability, culture change and emotional intelligence. She'll get you more familiar with the sustainability part of her career, but there's a whole package here that comes together with Roberta that you're going to enjoy. She's conducted thousands of individual client sessions, more than 85 noteworthy presentations and trainings over the past 15 years. She's going to talk to you about her new program called AHARA. I'm going to let her tell you about it in just a little bit. It's a sacred term that refers to the support of consciousness, eliminating everything which is not the intrinsic or higher nature of yourself. It's interesting, I was supposed to do a podcast with somebody earlier who was going to talk about something similar in her own discovery. When we got together, she wasn't quite ready to talk about it, but in some ways, we must be facing an interesting moment where we are looking for our higher nature and the world is a very fragile place. And she'll also talk about cleaning your own closet and conscious napping. She's very clever lady. Roberta, thank you for joining me today. Roberta Fernandez: Thanks for having me, Andi. I'm really excited to be here. And I'm excited too, because I think we are such a good fit for each other with how we think. Andi Simon: I think it is, and it's always interesting how we came to think the way we think. Roberta Fernandez: Right it is. It's been a journey. It is. Andi Simon: So let's talk about your journey. This didn't all just drop into the bucket right here. You've had a wonderful life professionally and personally. Share it with us. And that'll set the stage for what the programs are that you're offering today. Please. Who is Roberta? Roberta Fernandez: Well, I think I am a culmination of many, many years, getting into that last third of my life now, which is a pretty exciting time. I've been a serial entrepreneur since my 20s. I've done a lot of different things, but I think the thing that really changed my life, I had founded a Montessori school for 3- to 12-year-olds. So talk about anthropology. Montessori. She was an anthropologist, too, as well as a doctor way ahead of her time. I didn't know what I was going to do with my life. And I was sitting in a theater one day and I saw this movie, An Inconvenient Truth, and it just rocked my world, I have to tell you. And so I went home on the website and buried deep with this link, “Apply to be a presenter.” And I thought, okay, I can talk, I know how to talk, right? So I did. I forgot all about it. Probably 5 or 6 weeks later I get a call, it's Al Gore's office, and he invited me to be one of the first 50 people that they were going to train to give this climate talk. Andi Simon: It was, see, I believe in serendipity. Absolutely. Roberta Fernandez: And I was looking for my next stage and I had no idea what it was going to be. And so I went to Nashville. Long story. Mr. Gore trained a thousand people to give that climate talk over probably a six month period. And it was a wonderful grassroots, nonpartisan movement. I learned a lot from it. It opened my world, my look at my world, to a whole new area of sustainability, which was at that time not a very common term. And I ended up working with a company out of Sweden on sustainability, and became a consultant in that field. But what I learned really quickly is there was such resistance to that term, and you can't imagine why. Oh my gosh, you cannot change a culture until the people in it change. I mean, you can fire them, you can get rid of them, which sometimes is the right thing to do. But really you can't delegate the way people think. You can't do that top-down. So I did that for quite a few years, and I did a lot of corporate training for really big companies and universities and even cities. And then I found hypnosis, which really is a whole different way to take my career. But in actuality, it's the same thing. It's just a different tool. With hypnosis, we're looking at changing people's perspectives with the way they think and the way they behave, because emotion drives all behavior. And so the last 12 years of my life, I've been working with individuals, helping them to change. And a few years ago during Covid, Covid changed everything for everybody in some way, I decided I'm in the last third of my life. What's my legacy really going to be? And I decided to take the last 20 years of my experience and roll them into a process that I call AHARA. So there's several things that I do: cleaning out your closet is really getting rid of those limiting beliefs and kind of getting rid of the stuff that really isn't a part of you, and opening the door for that higher self. And then we start the Aha process, which is a year-long program where people learn to change how they think. I was really inspired by Einstein's quote: “I look at the world and all the problems that we have that seem insurmountable and we're not making very good progress with changing some of them.” And he said, “the problems that we have can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.” And as a hypnotist, I know that what we focus on expands. And if we're only focused on the problem, that's all we're going to be able to see. We have to focus on the solution, what we want. So if we look at that, that is the basis of an aha, and that is exactly what you described: changing how people think, how they feel and then how they behave in the world. Andi Simon: You know, Roberta, I'm an anthropologist. I'm a reader in neurosciences and the cognitive sciences. And, you know, we're remarkable critters. We're meaning-makers. I love the work that begins to show us that we have a story in our mind. And where it comes from is complicated. I've actually done hypnosis, so I'm sort of fascinated with our talk today. But once you have that story in your mind, it becomes your reality. Roberta Fernandez: It does. Andi Simon: And I tell folks, it really is an illusion. There is no reality. The only truth is there's no truth. That's right. And once you have it, though, you look for other people who are part of your tribe, the place you belong with your story that fits their story, and you all reinforce each other's common reality. There's nothing but one story. And so when I get into a corporation or community group that's stuck or stalled and you try to pull them away from that story, the first thing they say is, oh, no, we don't do that. And I laugh and I said, well, that's the problem because you don't see it. You don't see what's right in front of you. And so you're onto something for our conversation today that's extremely important, a little different perspective. But this mind is really powerful at creating something that may or may not be good anymore. So as if you're thinking about the next phase in your own career, I want to hear more about what you're creating and how you're applying it, and why it's working. Roberta Fernandez: Yeah. Thank you for that. And you're absolutely right. The story we tell is, it is the life that we create for ourselves. And it's the life that we get stuck in. And the problem is, that's just me and you. When you're in an organization, you're in a sea of those different perspectives and learning how to navigate all of those perspectives without losing your own identity, without losing your own opinion. And yet respecting and honoring those other perspectives allows us to do something amazing. And that is to create a new story and create a new reality. I think when we look at how stuck people get in their own way of thinking, we stand in our way, and what we want to do is to be able to open ourselves to this world of infinite possibilities. And when we really look at how our mind works and how we function in a traditional environment, we're only really looking at about 25% of what our opportunities are. And so AHARA, at its core, is really teaching people to become aware of their own thinking because, as you know, most of our thinking is habitual. It  is just totally not responsive, it's just automated. And so when we become aware of how we think and what we feel as an individual, then you can recognize those things in other people. And the Aha process is designed to teach you how to navigate that sea of perspectives. Andi Simon: Well, you said something very powerful there. The thinking is habitual and what AHARA allows you to do is, I'm not going to say break the habit, but maybe it's part of that. Habits are very powerful and very important. I mean, they make you very efficient. And the problem with breaking them is the brain doesn't really want to work hard on learning something new, even when you're getting educated.  You can feel your brain working really hard, trying to figure out what they are saying and how they are telling me to do this. And until you actually do it, it really doesn't exist. And then all of a sudden, you practice and you practice, and you get it. It's a little like learning golf. I was thinking of which metaphor I could use. I'm a 12-year golfer, and I remember having a club and a ball and a book, and I don't know why someone gave me a book to learn to play golf. It was irrelevant because I could read about it. But until I hit the ball, I went, oh, is that what they meant? And then I hit it twice. That was bad because now I could play this game. I can't play the game. It takes a long time to finally get it so that it works. So this is important now when you're helping people through the process. There are multiple levels at which you're working. You want to talk about the differences between the elite and the club and all of this because I think it's important for people to hear that. Roberta Fernandez: Yeah. Thank you. So really, it is one-on-one. So that is a very intensive way to look and learn the AHARA tenets. When I started three years ago, that's the only way I offered it. I would work with a client over six months and we'd meet twice a week. So it was pretty intense. There's some advantage to working one on one in that. It's like immersion and that's always a good thing. And you're focused and you're really into it. So you become acclimated to it pretty quickly, that's not reasonable for a lot of people. And it's also very expensive to do that. So AHARA Club and AHARA Team are the same program. It's just in the delivery that's different. So both programs last a year. We have a couple of group sessions a month, a one-on-one session a month, and a whole slew of other things that go into the program. Team is just within one company. And the advantage there, and this is what I found in my sustainability work, especially the larger companies, they're so siloed. I remember in Target, for example, they had two sustainability divisions. One was architectural and one was in-store and processes. They never talked to each other. And so this idea of having a common language and a common approach and common goals that you set with each other. So a team is just within a company, it might be the leadership team, it might be the advertising team, the sales team, but they're focused on their company's issues. AHARA Club involves people from lots of different backgrounds. So entrepreneurs, leaders, individuals who want to better themselves. And I love that too because you get such a different perspective on how people are applying what they're actually learning. The key to AHARA, I believe, is that everything that we talk about, all these things you and I are talking about, are some of the basic tenets of AHARA. But it's one thing to know them, it's another thing to integrate them as a permanent part of your being, of how you function in life. And so over the course of the year, as the members of the cohorts participate, they have activities that take these tenants and encourage them to use them in real life scenarios. So it really is an integration process. It's not like a coaching program where I'm holding people accountable and coaching them. It really is about changing the way you think, the way you problem solve and and the way you live your life. And that starts individually. So there's a big focus on the self. But once that awareness of how you're thinking of how you're interacting with the world, then how do we incorporate that on a personal and professional level? And that's what it is. Andi Simon: Possible to share an illustrative case with the listener or the viewer to concretize what you're saying because I'm trying to imagine what you're saying, and I am not getting a good imagination on it, and I don't want it to be external from us. This is something that goes inside us and is extremely transformative, if I hear you correctly. Can you give an example? Roberta Fernandez: Yes. So an example would be one of the women that went through AHARA, she was very successful in what she did, but she was bored to tears and she was thinking she needed to change careers, but had no idea what that was. And even though she was very successful in what she did, we found in working together that imposter syndrome was a big part of her life, and even thinking about doing something totally different was just beyond her capability because of a lack of confidence. So first we had to work on those issues. We had to clean out the closet, so to speak, of those limiting beliefs and really look at what was driving those things to begin with so that she could better understand who she was. And once we accomplished that, then it became looking at the specific tenets of AHARA. For example, you mentioned how reality, how your thoughts create your reality, how that reality shapes your life because there is no reality, there's a map, but we all use that map in different ways. We all experience that territory differently. And so looking at where her focus was was really challenging for her because she didn't know what she wanted to do. So we started with having her vision, the solution. And when I talk about problem solving from the solution, what I really mean is the first thing, because she didn't know what the solution was. She didn't know what she wanted, but she knew one thing, and that was how she wanted to feel when she was there. Andi Simon: Love it, love it, love it. Roberta Fernandez: Because here's the thing: the reason why we want anything is because we think we're going to feel better when we can have it. So even though we don't know the answer to something, we know how we want to feel when we've accomplished it. So we started visioning, doing some visioning work with her on how she wanted to feel. And it was really interesting to see how that vision started to work its way backwards. And bottom line, what she found was she didn't want to do anything different. She wanted to do what she was doing differently. It's a huge idea and it made all the difference in the world. And it's so interesting because she's a mortgage broker and that industry has taken a beating lately, and a lot of mortgage brokers don't exist anymore. When I look at her website, when I look at her posts on Facebook and Instagram and social media, I see AHARA all over it and she's still actually attracting people that think like she does because her whole thing was in her company, she built a company, but she had not built a family, and that was super important for her. When she first started implementing AHARA, it was very much in her family, juggling her kids and her husband and all their responsibilities. And then that started integrating very much with her as a person, as a business person, and gave her a gift. Andi Simon: You gave her a gift, didn't you? Roberta Fernandez: Well, she gave it to herself. I have a process that helps you discover your own answers. And I think that is really essential for all of us.  Andi Simon: I have a leadership academy, I have several, and I've been doing them for several years. And I love taking emerging leaders, once a month, beginning to get them to see themselves as no longer those managers, but as leaders. What do those words mean? I often say that the words create the worlds we live in, and if you're going to go from manager to leader, something has to stop and something has to start. You can't just add more on. Yeah, well, the first session and it's coming up, I asked them to draw pictures and tell us stories about themselves today. And then I asked them to visualize what it is they would like to see themselves become. Tell us a story about that, because I got to start them to see, feel and think about themselves through the story in their mind. And what you're telling us, it's a different approach, but very much the same. If I can't see it, I can't ever become it. And then we try to backward plan, small wins to begin to move ourselves closer to that. The vision changes, you know, as life gets in the way of where I want to be. It actually takes you in better places, because you can begin to see it as part of this complex thing that you're crafting. Roberta Fernandez: Absolutely. And I think when you look at, and this is the value that I have gotten from being a hypnotist for 12 years, the imagination, the subconscious mind, which is home to the imagination, home to your emotions, home to your rules about life and how you think. What created you as a person when you can tap into that? I always tell people, everybody came to me as a hypnotist for one reason and one reason only, and they would be dumbfounded by that. They would say, well, how will you deal with all these people with all these different problems? And I would say that's only the symptom. The reason why people would come to see me is that there was a disconnect between what they consciously wanted and what their subconscious mind believed was possible. And inside of you, the one thing that I am absolutely sure inside of each one of us are the answers. We just can't connect to them. And that's the bridge that I played as a hypnotist. And I learned so much about human behavior and how the mind works and how really simple those answers are. Once you can get clear.  Andi Simon: Pretty, pretty cool stuff, huh? Roberta Fernandez: It is. Yeah. Andi Simon: So now, how are you building? This is a new line of business for you. As if it's not quite a startup, but it is the next step in it.  Roberta Fernandez: You know, it's new and it's old because this is really the same work that I did in the corporate sector. I just did it on larger scales, right? I would have large training sessions and that kind of thing. So AHARA, any of the group ones are 12, we limit it to 12, 8-12 people at the most, but still more than one-on-one, because I also realize when we're looking at it professionally, having a variety of opinions and ways of applying what you're learning is so very important because people ask questions that I never would have thought of. And that's a learning experience for me. So I love the idea of working in small groups, but it really is the same thing I was doing before. I'm just packaging what I've learned from several careers, actually, and putting it all into one tool, if that makes sense. Andi Simon: I think that's wonderful. So it's not a startup, it's a restart instead of branding. It's a rebranding. But it is your skills, well-honed in your expertise and experience. This is not an imposter syndrome stuff. This is a woman who has had a great experience listeners might benefit by and do it in a very different way. I can't tell you how many times I became an executive coach. I don't sell it, but often my clients need it. And so I go from consulting into coaching, mostly to become a listener and to help them get some perspective, but it's amazing to me how without that, people have a hard time thinking. They have a hard time doing and they need to somehow, I won't say the word vent, but to express the dilemmas that they're facing. And often it's well beyond what you ever could have imagined and sort of like, I've had some clients and they've had family issues, and we get on a phone call or a Zoom for a business conversation. We never get to the business, the whole people and the combination of home and work sometimes just need a hand, you know? Let's see if we can help you rethink what you're doing and move forward some way, right? Roberta Fernandez: Yeah. You know, I remember when I was young, there was the attitude of, you have to leave your problems at the door when you get to work. And no, that was a thing, right? You're right. Andi Simon: I am the same age. It was exactly. Absolutely. Roberta Fernandez: And it's impossible. It's like saying you can separate the body from the mind and the spirit. You can't. We are a whole package deal. And how we are personally definitely impacts who we are professionally. And we tend to think of ourselves as a different person when we walk in that door. And that is not the truth. It is not the truth. And what is really cool is when we realize that and we can learn how to integrate these processes as part of who we are, we become more efficient in both our personal and professional life. And so when I was rebranding myself as not just a consultant, I really was specific and intentional in saying a personal and professional development consultant because they're inextricably connected. Andi Simon: And if you can structure a process for yourself of moving between roles, I often tell my clients that life is like theater. You don't see it that way, but it's just another metaphor. And in each place you are, you're playing a role, sometimes well-honed, in others not. But I used to find that when I came home from business and my two kids were there waiting for time, I'd say to them, mom has to take a shower first. And I took the shower, I sat on the floor outside the shower, and I took the shower as a quiet downtime to move from business to mom. And then I came out as a mom, and I vividly remember saying to myself, this is very healthy for them and for you because as you walk through the door, you're still there and now you have to come here. The mom and I never quite tried to master that, but I remember having to because it was intense, both the business side and the mom side and being a professional person, you know, it was always managing a blended life. You had to figure out how one person could keep shifting rolls. And I remember we had one party for one client and it was on my birthday. My daughter came with me, and it was with great pride that I showed her off and brought her in. It was okay. So I think that these were complicated critters, and I do think it's time that more people need them.  Roberta Fernandez: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. So  I think I agree with everything that you're saying, Andi. And I think if the audience can really take something away from this is that, really exploring, you mentioned that you're a neuroscientist. My daughter is a neuroscientist as well. And we have very interesting discussions as a hypnotist and a neuroscientist together about how the brain works. It's really important to understand that; you mentioned earlier the brain has to be efficient. And so the majority of things that we do day in and day out are just habits. It's something, and our thoughts too, just thoughts. We keep thinking over and over again but change is possible because it just is. And the way it's possible is by becoming aware of how we think. And when I look at the acronym of AHARA, A Higher Awareness leads us to Realize our Abilities, because we cannot fully realize our potential and reach that potential until we are aware of who we are, how we think, and how we navigate this world. And once we can tap into that, then the sky is absolutely the limit. Andi Simon: You almost answered my question, which was, Roberta, tell the listener one or 2 or 3 things you don't want them to forget. That sounded like the one. Roberta Fernandez: Oh, it's one. Andi Simon: Yes it is. You know, because we're about ready to wrap up. Is there a 2 or 3 you can add to that, or shall we just end on that note? Roberta Fernandez: I think here's how I'd like to end it. If you look at any great artist or scientist or inventor or just a highly successful person in general, they're going to tell you that changing how they think, how they process, and how they see things differently than anybody else is what has contributed the most to their success. Andi Simon: Good. So now we have a great podcast to share that you can change. It is painful. The amygdala really hijacks most new ideas. The habits make you efficient, but not necessarily productive. I love the story of the woman who wanted to stay and do what she did, but do it differently to add real value to herself and others. And change is painful. But it happens. And I also love the fact that when you're understanding that the words we use create the worlds we live in, sometimes we have to shed some ideas deliberately. And I like the idea of doing it in groups of 8 or 10, so you can help each other stay on course and not fall back. Because sometimes we fall back, even though we really don't want to. We don't even see ourselves. It's just the old habits rising to the surface. Oh, we're complicated humans. God, if only it were easy but there's progress. Now, remember, Judith Glaser does great work with conversational intelligence, and her stuff about the brain literally changes when you hear stories like we're telling. So just so you know, listeners, you listen and your brain is adapting to what you're hearing. Your story is changing, and there's actually DNA that's gone through a transformation there. Maybe. But I love the idea that this is casual and outside of us, but comes inside of us and begins to be transformative, like your work. So absolutely, I'm going to say it's time to wrap. I always love our podcasts. This is a great one. I'm so glad you came to me. I don't know where, serendipity and there you are, but it's been a great conversation about things that I sort of knew, but I didn't know a lot about for our audience. Thank you for coming. It's always a pleasure to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Remember my new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and elsewhere, and I think that it's a time for us to begin to understand how change is possible, and we should be changing. The joy of writing this book is that 102 women want to share their wisdom with others so you can thrive in business as well. And that is a very big change. When you read those stories and look at their wisdoms, you go, oh my gosh, that's a great point. I can do that. Not the least of which is serendipity is a great way to start the day, and we have been serendipitously happy today. Goodbye my friends. Thanks. Send us your emails at info@Andisimon.com and we will bring more great people onto the show. Goodbye again. Bye bye. Have a great day. Thanks, Roberta. Roberta Fernandez: Thank you.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Roseann and Clara Sunwoo—How Did Roseann And Clara Sunwoo Build A Successful Women's Fashion Brand?   POSTED ON JANUARY 20, 2024 Hear how a great idea and hard work made this dynamic duo succeed  This is one of those amazing stories that you've heard 100 times but it never ceases to make me smile. Clara Sunwoo and her husband came to the United States from Seoul, Korea in 1975 with two suitcases and $1,000. Now, 49 years later, Clara and her daughter Roseann are riding the wave of the very successful fashion business they built together, ClaraSunwoo. I have one of their jackets and I love it. I am honored that they are part of our book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and myself, and even more honored to bring them to you today. Enjoy. Watch and listen to our conversation here Wisdoms for entrepreneurs from Roseann and Clara Sunwoo: You need to be fearless. All the women out there, if you are having second thoughts or you have a great idea, don't wait on it. Give it a try. Learn as you go. We saw a need and we filled it (very Blue Ocean Strategy!). Just take that leap of faith. A lot of women in business, or women who want to go into business or become entrepreneurs, have fabulous ideas, but think they have to have all the certificates or degrees. You don't. Sometimes I would be the youngest female or the only female in a meeting. We as women really need to empower ourselves and get to another place here. The way you get through the tough times is with the people that surround you. Go with your gut in the beginning and take those risks. Data is so important. Pay attention to what it is telling you. Really love yourself.  Never say you'll never do something or never say no to something, because you might find you'll be surprised. To connect with Roseann and Clara, you can find them on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, Vimeo and their company website Clara Sunwoo. Want more on how to succeed as an entrepreneur, especially as a woman? Start with these: Marsha Friedman—How A Woman Entrepreneur Took A Little Idea And Turned It Into A Big Business Amanda Zuckerman—How To Turn A Big Idea Into A Huge Blue Ocean Success! Finding The “Holes in the Cheese” To Build A Successful Business! Meet Kim Shepherd Stephanie Breedlove: How Women Entrepreneurs Can Think Bigger, Build Sustainable Businesses, and Change the World Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman  Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. We want to bring you people who are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Because it's only when you see something and you feel it that your brain can start to think about, how can I apply this? And how can I do it in a way that's going to help me soar? And that's what we love to do. I have today two marvelous women who are going to help share with you their own journey. And when you listen to their journey, you're going to go, oh my, if they can, I can. And what kind of wisdom have they brought to their whole industry of women's fashion? I met Roseann and Clara Sunwoo as I was doing our book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And their pages in here are just gorgeous. What we did was, we collected the wisdoms of 102 women, and Roseann and Clara came to us, I think, from Robin Spizman, one of our co-authors, and we were so excited to share. So first, I want to tell you a little bit about them. I want to thank them for joining us. It's going to be fun to really dig into two creative women who have built something unusual. I'm wearing their jacket today and their blouse and their pants and I wear it all the time. It's so comfortable and it looks good and it's really designed for me without them knowing me. So who are they? Clara Sunwoo, the name of the company that they founded. They make clothing that's strong and feminine and every day ready. It's true. Since 1997, Clara Sunwoo and her daughter Roseann have worked together to create timeless designs that fuse classic styles with modern edge. And this fabric is really fascinating. You're going to really understand it as they talk about it. Their goal is to have women not just look, but experience and feel edgy, empowered and beautiful. Yes I do, it's so much fun. We're a cross-generation ageless lifestyle brand. Every design they create must be wrinkle free, travel friendly and effortless. They know me. I've already got 3 million miles on American, over 100,000 this year alone. Every week on a plane. You need clothes that move with you. So today we're going to hear about their journey, because I do think it's a journey that is going to inspire you. It's going to absolutely celebrate what they've done, but elevate what you can do and educate you about how to think about what's happening and what change can bring to you and your brand or your business. Roseann and Clara, thank you for being here today. Clara and Roseann Sunwoo: Oh, thank you so much for having us. We're really happy to be here. Andi Simon: I can't tell you how, and it's really fun to share them. Everytime I see them, I go, oh, this is so much fun. Please share your story because it's a very touching story. It touches my heart and I don't want to share it for you. Please. Roseann Sunwoo: So one of the things I really want to let everyone know that is listening is we did not go to fashion design school. We're not from that background. My mother and father came to the United States from Seoul, Korea back in 1975 with two suitcases and $1,000. $1,000. So you can imagine with $1,000, you're not buying much. Then I was born and I remember I became an unknowing apprentice in the family. So I know, mom, we have a lot of photos in the family. We're wearing the same watermelon prints as children. We would make everything. We made curtains, pillowcases. We were hands on, and it really came from necessity, the talent to make things, to use your hands. We were not going in a direction, going into fashion in any sense. However, we were making clothing for friends, family or for ourselves. And a lot of people would ask you all the time to make clothing for them. Andi Simon: My mother's mother came here from Russia through England to here, and she was a seamstress, not an uncommon job or career. I'm not sure she thought of it as a career. It was what made enough money for her to raise six children. So I fully appreciate this. As you were making clothes for others, what did you discover? Roseann Sunwoo: They were gorgeous, like all shapes and body types. What we noticed is, the fashion industry, and we were feeling the same thing, they put us in categories. I felt like women had to, if you're this type of person or this age bracket, you must look like this. And it was really tiring and it was really just in our minds, we're very modern and we're very forward thinking. And it seemed backwards to us, and it was really frustrating to try things on where things were ill-fitting. I think what we're known for as designers is the perfect fit. We're both perfectionists, we're very detail oriented. And it's the subtle, the subtle work that we do that really just, things drape well and we understand the body, the form, really well because we work with so many different body shapes, so many different women. And it really allowed us to understand how to design better. And also we knew who our audience was. We realized there were so many women out there that were feeling the same things we were. When we talk about an Ageless Lifestyle Brand, we have so many different types of women wear our collection, and it's really about how you put it together. And I want to go back to the way you feel. Looking good is wonderful because it's going to make you feel good when you look good. But it's really the feeling, the empowered on the inside. And when you wear fabrics that let you move and breathe and you feel really comfortable in it, but it's high fashion because we're not cutting corners, I think that's going to empower women, and it's going to make them really elevate in so many ways. I think that's important. And that's our main reason for creating the line. We did it in 1997. We started with a capsule collection. There was a lot of risk because we used our life savings. I think we said, I had approached my mother and I said, why don't we create a very tight collection, debut it at a tradeshow and just see what happens. And I was actually possibly heading towards law school, being the good immigrant child, everyone expects you to go to law school or med school, that's what happenss. That was my parent's dream back then. But I made a U-turn, and I'm so glad we did make that U-turn. It was very, very nerve wracking because trade shows are expensive to do. But in the beginning, you learn as you go. We did not come from the business background, the fashion background. It was winging it a little bit. And I want to talk about this too. I think a lot of women in business, or women who want to go into business or become entrepreneurs, have fabulous ideas, but I think they never get to the other side until they feel like, I need to learn everything. I need to make sure that I have this degree, this certificate, and then once I get there, I'm going to jump to that other side.  I think in reality, it doesn't work like that. I think there are certain things that you need. You need to get those licenses and certificates. But for many to jump, to start your business, it's a little bit of just taking that leap of faith and the hope, and it does go back to hope, where obviously our back was against the wall and we were hoping that this would work. And it did. Andi Simon: You know, I often talk about…I'm an anthropologist and I love to talk about taking observations and turning them into innovation. At the time, were you already seeing what you know now about the clothing industry? I can fully appreciate how the clothing industry categorized women and made clothes for particular clients without any larger philosophy, because what you're talking about is a very different philosophy than something for a 50 year old or for a 30 year old. I mean, you were talking about being able to travel with it, feeling flexible, letting them feel good…was that early in your observations about this or did it come with time and maybe both? Roseann Sunwoo: I think it was actually early on because it started with just ill-fitting things. And you know, if we give it more shape. It made us happy to give shape. We noticed a lot of women were wearing, if they felt uncomfortable with themselves, they would wear larger, looser pieces. And we saw that that wasn't helping them. And they could have fun with fashion. And I feel like fashion is, there's a sense of joy when someone feels, there's joy in that. And we really felt some of our best moments where women would come out of the dressing room and they're almost in tears. And when you feel and experience that, we realized we had something to share. And it made us feel really good. So I think it started off with fit and seeing that joy and then really understanding that…I think also women and business at that point, I remember being in a lot of meetings as I was working with different companies, sometimes I would be the youngest female or the only female in that meeting. I noticed that. I started to realize, we really need to empower ourselves and get to another place here. This is not, especially in the fashion industry. That's what I saw. Andi Simon: I was that woman. I left academics and went into banking as a consultant, and I was always the only, the first, whether it was a boardroom or it was the C-suite and I didn't really know how to dress, I felt like it was theater. What is the part I'm supposed to play and how do I dress the right way to fit that? What do I say? People talk about imposter syndrome, and I said, I've always been an imposter. I was going into venues with folks who didn't look like me, and they didn't say anything, but you try to figure out, how do I belong, what do I do to fit in? And the clothing. Brooks Brothers was for men. And you bought their clothes for women. But you look like a man. And it wasn't me, but I wasn't quite sure what was me. And so, you know, you're raising some important questions for women and for you who are watching or listening. Think carefully. Who are you? How do you dress so that you thrive and you feel exhilarated about putting it on? This is a great jacket. I put it on, I go, oh. Please continue. As your journey went, how did it become 3000 boutiques? Because this didn't happen overnight. Roseann Sunwoo: No, it didn't happen overnight. But, I think we like doing things locally, being hands on. We noticed that we like to know who our buyers were. They gave us feedback. It was almost like a patchwork of boutiques where, and that wasn't something that we originally said, okay, this is our business plan and this is what we're going to do. But we realized that the whole department store model was just not quite…. I felt like as designers, we were going to work for them. And they were going to box us in in a way where we have to design for what they were looking for during that season. And I don't think, we would not be able to shine in that realm. So once we started working with all these local boutiques, a lot of it was word of mouth. We also had a lot of celebrities find our collection. A friend, they were shopping at a boutique, they would get gifts that led to a lot of big surprises. And I'm going to mention, we were on Oprah's favorite list not that long ago. And actually they did a commercial on us, which was amazing. We had a Today Show segment. We're in this book, Women Mean Business. We are so lucky. We work hard and we're always, I think we don't know how not to work because that's who we are, we love what we do. However, the consumer out there reached out to us. We didn't use PR companies. It was a very organic way of growing. And then we just grew into 3000 boutiques with boutiques in every state. And we realized that that was where we belong. Andi Simon: Now, how do you manufacture to support 3000 boutiques? I mean, are you like Zara that makes it just in time or do you have a lot of inventory? I think it's interesting to think about, you made a good point before. People want to be really competent before they go into something. And you illustrate that we learn on the job and we grow and prosper. You can too. But how do you do that part? Roseann Sunwoo: So sometimes we wish there was a crystal ball. We do. And I have to say the business has changed a lot. The fashion industry has changed a lot in terms of the calendar, after the pandemic. Even department store buyers, corporate buyers, down to boutique buyers, they are buying a little bit closer to season. So the calendar has changed. Knock on wood, we're confident enough to have built a loyal clientele that we do tend to create our collection and maintain inventory up to a certain point so that we can be ready when the stores are buying later than the season, because you can't just turn things around overnight. We're always living a year ahead or a whole season ahead.  I think it's definitely, my heart goes out to a lot of newcomers in the fashion industry, because I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to have the merchandise. But we are very fairly lucky where we're able to have that loyal clientele that we know that they're going to support us. Andi Simon: Because to your point, it's a challenging time, both in terms of cash flow, inventory, financing and the complexity. You didn't go to law school, but in some ways you are very analytical and lawyer-like. Are you a data person? Roseann Sunwoo: Yes. So I believe In the very beginning when we started our company, there wasn't much data to go with so you go with your gut, you're creating relationships, which, by the way, I think are so important because the mills and the relationships that I have made 25 years ago are the same mills I work with now. Andi Simon: That's wonderful. Roseann Sunwoo: And it's just so much better when you have that trust and the relationship and that history. I think that's how you get through the tough times with the people that surround you. Going with your gut in the beginning and taking those risks, data is so important. And now with the computers and all of the information that you're getting, whether it be on the wholesale end or the retail end, we really need to know what the consumer is thinking. We need to know how she's changing, where she's going, what she's looking for. And our data is really showing that women are starting to break away from this traditional sense of, I need to look like this because this is my age. Even 20 or, 30 year old women, they're starting to break away from, I don't need to wear these things, I can wear what I want, I love vintage clothes. I see a lot of mother-daughter teams just exchanging clothing. I think it's a beautiful thing because I think women need to support each other more, through generations. Bring them up. And it should not be separated because there's so much to learn from each other. And I think fashion too, we shouldn't separate. Andi Simon: And you've also given them a way not to separate. And I think that's the beauty of what you've created, because you could preach that. But if you can't find clothes that allow you to feel and look good at any age, it's difficult to believe that you can do that. And the magic in what you have is that, I don't care whether you're 25 or 75, this jacket will fit you and look gorgeous on you. And when you see it on stars, I go, oh, they were in the same jacket I am. So, you've brought a life, a philosophy, that is just extraordinary because you're living it, but you're letting others do the same. Clara, You're smiling. You are a happy woman, aren't you? Clara Sunwoo: I try. Andi Simon: If you are, it's really wonderful to watch you smile. I'm curious, you have the 3000 boutiques, but I bought online. How big is your online business? Roseann Sunwoo: So our online business started ramping up more, so I think during the pandemic. So we were focused more on a wholesale buyer. I think the world changed real fast. I mean, we had an online presence before the pandemic, but we weren't focused on it as much. However, I think with the pandemic everyone sped up with online shopping, even customers that would normally not shop online and say, I have to feel the fabrics, I have to try it on. They had to shop online at that point too. And now what we're seeing is the growth on the e-commerce side, on the online shops. However, our boutiques are wonderful with carrying the line and keeping in touch with their loyal customers. So at the end of the day, it's a patchwork. And so it just keeps feeding the whole ecosystem of both the wholesale, the brick and mortar, the online, the e-com. So we're in a very good position right now, but again, going back to data, and I think going into e-comm, data is so important because now you're not face to face with the customer but they can also share a lot. We get a lot of exchange and information and also just through social media. I mean, what I love about our social media, you see women of different ages, different body shapes, maybe not so much online. You could see our models. We're still a small company, so we don't have the budget to have 20 different models. We're not there yet. But what I love to show in social media are the real women because then you can really see what we're doing. Andi Simon: And I think that reality takes the abstraction. Remember, we live this kind of illusion and we imagine and then when you see it and you go, oh, that's what that is. Because if I hadn't met you and Robin hadn't told me how great you guys were, I'm not sure I would have been that curious about what it was. It didn't seem to fit me. And then I saw it, and I went, oh, my goodness, that not only fits me, so, now I have two jackets, two pairs of pants, two blouses, and I'm not quite sure I'm ready for the next one yet, but I don't have enough time to wear them all. But it is exciting to be part of something, and I share that with you, because now I don't feel like I'm buying a thing, I'm buying part of us, and that collaboration, that sense of celebration is really so very exciting. I am curious and I'll be satisfied with my curiosity. How did you come up with this fabric? It's not leather.  Roseann Sunwoo: No, it's not leather. And a lot of women don't like leather. I personally don't either. It's very restrictive, it's stiff. So what you are wearing is a special fabric we had invented, and we call it liquid leather. And liquid leather really feels like, it's a knit. It's very soft. It's butter soft. It's stretchy. It's so lightweight and thin that you can actually roll up your jacket and put it in your purse. I know that it almost looks like a leather blazer on you right now, but it's very lightweight. We spent a lot of time trying to invent this fabric because we felt like leather, or blazers and jackets, it's a sign of a woman that's empowered, at least to us. It's a very powerful jacket but we don't like that stiff feel. And again, that's very masculine. And I felt like we could take that idea, invent something that was so just feminine and comfortable and travel friendly and let women feel empowered because when you put a leather jacket on or a blazer, there's this, at least I feel something, I stand differently. I think it's a sign of empowerment. And I love the fact that, it's made for everyone. Andi Simon: And it travels. I swear it travels amazingly.  Roseann Sunwoo: You could put 50 of those jackets in a carry on. Andi Simon: Yeah. And, it comes out looking perfect. And I went, this is really amazing, amazing, amazing. So thank you for satisfying my curiosity because I did have to figure out how you do this. It's not leather, it looks like leather. It feels like that blazer. I love to wear it. Do you know many blazers I've worn over my lifetime? It truly is part of my style. Pair of gray pants and a blue blazer and you're ready to go. Roaseann Sunwoo: We call it the new modern cardigan. And that's how women should think about it. It's like, do you grab a cardigan when you're chilly at the office? Or if you're out to dinner or you're at the movie theater? I'm always kind of cold with the AC. This is something that you could just pull out of your bag. It's very light. Andi Simon: So I want to wrap us up because I'm about ready, but before we're gone, you wrote something really wonderful here. I don't want to lose it. In our book Women Mean Business, you write: “The modern woman is ageless and fearless.” What a great view. “And the fashion industry must not categorize her. We are obsessed with changing the way women think about style and comfort. Our mantra: to make women feel good and spread joy, one woman at a time.” It captures the power and essence of who you are, how you've come from an immigrant with $1,000 in your bag and turned it into an amazing experience. And I don't think you're done. Do you see much in the future that's going to be coming soon that we should pay attention to. And then we can wrap us up. Roseann Sunwoo: I don't think we're done either. I think the creativity that we have, I think we just got started because we feel the energy. The women now, I feel like they're finally understanding what we're doing. And I think we're on the same page now, and there's a lot of women, like, it's not just a brand to shop, but it's like, join the club. It's a mentality. Andi Simon: Don't lose that thought because you pull us into belonging, to the next stage in our personal lives and your design. So I think you're absolutely right. It isn't the end. It's the beginning of the next phase. And this is a collaboration that's going to be very exciting. Okay, my dear friends, one or two things you don't want our listener or viewer to forget because they always remember the end better than the beginning. Roseann Sunwoo: Well, we both think that you need to be fearless. All the women out there, if you are having second thoughts or you have a great idea, don't wait on it. Think about what you can you lose? If it's not grave, try, because you don't need to know everything to start. The other thing is, really love yourself, find joy in fashion and don't let people categorize you because every day could be something different. I'm a big believer of, never say you'll never do something or never say no to something, because you might find you'll be surprised. And I do want to say, if you do want to look for our brand online, please head to clarasunwoo.com. And we are so happy that you have invited us for this podcast and this is a great time. Thank you. Andi Simon: It's a great time and I'm happy to be part of your club. And so send me a little membership card because I think that the clothes are transformative. The book that we wrote was to celebrate and elevate women. I am so delighted that I had the opportunity to meet you and to share you. You really are taking women off the brink and helping them see, feel and think in new ways so they can soar. It is fun and you're also smiling a lot, which I think is great. I'm going to thank you and everyone for coming today. I do want to recognize the fact that Women Mean Business, the title of our book, is a trademark owned by the National Association of Women Business Owners, who have really done an amazing job helping women business owners grow, thrive, and build their businesses together. So I thank them for the opportunity to use the title for our book, Women Mean Business. It has been a pleasure. For those of you who come, send me new people to bring on. I have no shortage of a line out the door, but I always love my listeners to come and send along people they met who they thought are worth listening to. As you heard today, the journeys are all very important because they open your mind to what you can be. All my books are on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and I would love you to give me a review on Amazon if you really love it, because it's great fun to share it and I'm a sharer. Been a pleasure. Thank you for coming to On the Brink. I'm going to say goodbye now and have a wonderful day. Bye bye.   WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)  

Hear about perseverance, pivoting, and putting yourself out there In today's podcast I bring you Gemma Toner, former media and telecommunications innovator and one of the 102 amazing women leaders featured in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and myself. Gemma and I talk about not being afraid to take a job or head up a project even if you think you're not 100% quailified. Believe in yourself and offer yourself as a smart person who can grow—that's when amazing things can happen. Listen in! Watch and listen to our conversation here 8 takeaways from Gemma for your own journey Just start. And then keep going. This the best advice Gemma received from one of her mentors. Everybody makes mistakes. Learn and start again. Find people that are like you that can support you, in good times and bad. We all need a support team. Don't forget where you came from. Remember your roots. Be open to lateral moves. There are many ways to build your career. Even roles you don't like can lead to great opportunities. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know. Be open and curious. Share your wisdom and experiences with other women. As you rise, lift others. Don't let setbacks limit you. Handle the disappointment, learn as much as you can from it, then let it go and move on. To connect with Gemma, you can find her on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and her company website Tone Networks. You can also email her at gemma@tonenetworks.com. For more on becoming the best you can be, here are some of our favorite podcasts: Elizabeth Rosenberg—Can An Extraordinary Coach Bring Out The Unseen Beauty In Your Strengths? Jodi Flynn Takes You From Dreaming To Doing Shayna Bergman—How To Identify Your Values And Live Them Every Day Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman  Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon and as you know, I'm your host and your guide, and I love doing podcasts so that you can see, feel and think in new ways. Why is that important? Well, these are very fast changing times, and regardless of who you are or where you are, something is pushing against you a little bit and you're not quite sure. Do I like it? Don't I like it? Most humans hate change. It creates pain in the brain. But it's time to change. And the sooner you make change your friend, the more happy you're going to be. My job is to get you off the brink. So today I have an amazing woman here. Gemma Toner is a fabulous woman. She's part of our book Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. You can see behind us, and I'm going to show you her picture. And each of them provide five wisdoms. And what I love doing is sharing their wisdom on the podcast because sometimes it comes alive even better. Gemma, thank you for being with me today. You're smiling, I love you. Gemma Toner: I am so grateful to be here. Thank you. Andi Simon: Gemma and I are going to have a great lunch after our podcast. But first we have to get through our podcast. Let me tell you about her so that you, our viewers and our listeners, know why you should listen up because it's important. Gemma is a media and telecommunications leader known for driving innovation. In 2017, she created Tone Networks. And we're going to talk about Tone today as a SAS microlearning platform designed for early- to mid-career women. Although as I looked at them, I think it's for all women to stay in advance in the workplace. She's been a board member of publicly traded companies including Sandvine, and is currently Co-Chair of the Women Business Collaborative. Before founding Tone Networks, Gemma held executive positions in media and technology for AMC and Cablevision Media, running the fastest ISP in the country. We're going to hear more about that in a moment. She's been granted patents for data analytics, and she proudly serves on the board of the global humanitarian organization Concern Worldwide. Don't you love that bio, audience? I think this is a wonderful time because you had that great article in February of 2023 about The Great Breakup. So here you're going to hear about Gemma in the corporate world and then founding a new company to help women do even better. And this is something that is extremely important to me and to her. Tell us about your journey. How did you get into corporate? What was it like?  Gemma Toner: All right. Let me tell you about my journey, because it is not one that people immediately think of or hear. And that is that. I think of myself as a mother and a wife and a business person, a technologist, and I'm a data geek, but I'm also an immigrant. And that's important because it's such a strong part of my identity. And it's also kind of driven me throughout my whole life. And so you ask how I got into corporate? Well, I'll tell you. My parents immigrated from Northern Ireland when I was about 4 or 6 months old. When you're an immigrant, and this was back in the 60s, your family actually became your friends. And at least for our family, we were packed up every summer and spent time with all our family that my parents had left back in Ireland. So I have this kind of bifurcated life which sometimes I didn't always appreciate. You ask me again how I got into corporate. Well, I kind of looked at my dad and saw what he accomplished, and I was the oldest in a family of three girls. I thought, well, I've got to do better because he came here literally with nothing. He had very little money, very little education, but he had the dream that the American dream was possible. And you know what? It really was for him. And he became wildly successful here in the United States. So I had some big shoes to fill. And my dad didn't go to college. So the first step for me to get to corporate America was actually to get to college. And so I did. I got into Villanova and had a great experience there and ended up studying accounting. That wasn't necessarily the most strategic. I happen to be really good at it. I happen to also be one of the few women in the room, and I didn't mind that. So it was a great school, great experience. And I popped into corporate America and my first job was at a great company now called Ernst and Young. And I got to spend a lot of time at Time Inc. and again, this was again for this immigrant girl, this was corporate. America was not something I grew up with. I did not know about mentors or sponsors. I didn't even know that those names or terms existed. I certainly didn't know anything about networking. But what I did know was that, keep your head down and work really hard. So I got to see corporate America kind of in its heyday. When you're working for those types of firms, you actually get to see the world at a pretty high level, even though you might be doing pretty mundane things as an entry level employee. But what it turned me on to and what I'm very grateful for was I got to really learn about the media business. And I realized pretty quickly that, Hey, this is actually where I want to be. And so I came home to my father, who had worked so hard and given us so much opportunity and said, Dad, I really don't like this accounting thing very much. I think I want to try something else. And he said, Gemma, you can do anything. And he didn't make me feel bad that I had just spent four years studying accounting, which is a great degree. I highly recommend it. Working at Ernst and Young was a great experience. But, it was time for me to make the jump. You'll hear often in my career, I kind of jump off cliffs and eventually fly. It doesn't always go seamlessly, but it happens. And so I jumped. And so it wasn't easy to have someone to have a media company hire an accountant, because certainly they didn't think I had a marketing background and I didn't, but I was entry level. And so it was a great time to kind of jump in and make a career switch. So I was fortunate enough. I actually started out at a company called Rainbow Advertising. So I got to see the world of advertising. And then I landed this fantastic job working for a woman. Her name is Katie McEnroe at AMC Networks. And that was where I had that first moment of: I see her, I want to be her. Andi Simon: Ah. Gemma Toner: And she was president of this network. We were in heavy distribution and marketing mode. And it was run by Josh Sapan at the time, another fantastic human being to work for. And it was probably one of the best experiences I could ever have. I got to see so much. I got to do so much. We were all so supportive of each other. We were very aggressive, but in an okay way, at a time in the telecommunications industry where it was really a bonanza of creativity and technology and distribution, it was just all these new things that were coming out. And so from there, that was sort of how I landed in corporate, and then towards the end of my time at AMC Networks, I got really fascinated with this thing, I'm going to date myself a bit, called New Media. And I was always a bit of a geek. And, you know, I love computers and machines and things like that. And so I was able to persuade my boss at the time to create a new job, which was, how do we create content for this new medium, the internet. And more importantly, it wasn't just about the internet because this was, again, where you had to dial up. It was really about this next thing that was coming, which was high speed data, which most people didn't even know the name of. So I got to create content. We learned, we made a lot of mistakes. I learned very early on that the programming and the content had to be really short. And this was way back, like in 2000. We knew it needed to be short. So we made a lot of mistakes along the way. But it was a great ride, and I share that because that transitioned me to yet my next gig, which was, I got asked to interview for this job working at a company here in New York called Cablevision to run this fledgling product called Optimum Online. And at the time it had a lot of optimism. And the CEO of Cablevision and President wanted someone that had a really good branding background. And if there's anything AMC Networks can do, it really teaches you how to brand and how important it is and to understand your audience. And all of that will follow through as we talk about Tone Networks. So anyway, I was fortunate enough to land the job, and at the time, I'll just say, so for anyone that ever has had this experience, I landed the job, I got married and then ended up becoming pregnant all within like three months. So I thought to myself, what in the world have I just done to myself? But I did it. So I jumped again, jumping into a big cliff or off a big cliff. And it was probably the hardest job I've ever had. You know, it was, now I was working at a cable company. It was heavy in the technology space. We were also in a place where people didn't know what high speed access was and they kind of liked that old dial up sound. So it was quite a challenge. But it was really the beginning of a fantastic career journey at this cable company because not only did I get to be a part of launching and building that, but I also got to be a part of launching other new technologies at the company, namely Optimum Voice. I got to be a part of that team, as well as Optimum WiFi and then again at Cablevision. It was very entrepreneurial, even though we were a publicly traded company. It had great visionaries at the top and mentors. Quite honestly, I got picked to solve a problem. And the problem was, Here we were, this company that had all of this data, and this was again early, before it was even called big data. And what could we do with it? How could we monetize it? How can we make products? And so I got to do something that I never in my wildest dreams imagined I would do, which was to run this data analytics team. And they were brilliant. And, again, it really speaks to you may not have to know how to do it. You just need to know how to lead and have some vision. Because truly, Andi, you and I were talking about one of my main criteria was, I needed a social anthropologist. We needed to understand what all this data and behavioral data meant. But we had data scientists. I mean, it was just an extraordinary time and we ended up creating new products. We ended up getting some patents. And so that was really my life in corporate America. And it was a wild ride. It was not easy, I want to be really clear. I think so many people come on podcasts or do media and interviews and they don't share that. It was hard. It was really hard. I cried a lot, I want to be honest. I cried myself to work some days with the pressure and everything that was coming at me. But, you know, I think one of my mentors always said, keep going. And I think that is something that I want everyone to remember. Just keep going. Keep going through it. You'll get through it. And so I stuck with it. I had this great opportunity, and then I had something very personal happen. And that was, a very good friend of mine who I had watched struggle with colon cancer for five years, passed away. And I went into the office after she had died. I watched her fight day in and day out for another day with her boys. I had this great gig. I got picked for the really cool stuff. It was the hard stuff. But I loved the hard stuff. I had an executive coach.  I got to go to Stanford. I lived 20 minutes from my job. You couldn't have asked for a better dream job. But I walked in and I was like, I'm done. And I didn't know it was very emotional. So I wouldn't say, go do this, but I did. So I'm just being honest and vulnerable. But, I came home that day and I spoke to my husband and I said, I don't know what it is, but it's just not this anymore. And so I retired. When you retire, when you're kind of at the top of your game and you have a really great gig, people look at you funny. So again, I will let you know that people are like, Why are you leaving right now? You know, here you are a woman, you're at the top of it, it didn't make a lot of sense. But what I knew inside was that I needed something different. And that's all I knew. I did not have a strategic plan, so I recommend others have a strategic plan. Mine was a very emotional decision, but I also needed to take a break. And so what I did was having had an executive coach, which is truly life-changing and transformative, I knew enough about myself and my own neuroses and my A-type that I am, that I might squander this gift that I had given myself, which I thought was retirement. And I thought, I need to have my executive coach help me through this because the last thing I want to do was to lose this time worrying about what's next and not use it. I've worked for as long as I can remember. Well, we had monthly meetings, and she really helped me keep on that path of taking this time for yourself, rediscover yourself. I also had a girlfriend who gave me a book, which I highly recommend. And Brené Brown, if you're listening, I want to be your best friend, which is daring greatly.  And it was really about vulnerability. And that really resonated with me because I did not grow up in an environment where I felt I could be vulnerable. Making vulnerability equate with courage really spoke to me. It really sung to me. And so during my retirement, I got asked to be on those boards, which was fantastic. And I have another story which will take way too long, but it is about saying no. So we'll save that for the next podcast. But that was about how I ended up getting on those boards and how that snowballed, which was fantastic. And then during my, I guess you would call it a sabbatical, I got asked to serve on the Board of Concern Worldwide, and I hadn't heard of it. They were happening. They were looking for someone with a data analytics and marketing background. So I just happened to get lucky and interview for that position, and I thought this was for me, Andi. I thought, this is it. I want to give back. I need something more. I've done the corporate America thing and I thought, okay, thank you, thank you God, here it is. And so that's how I proceeded. Now, as being a board member, I was supposed to go to Haiti and go on a trip. And at the time, Haiti became too unstable for us to go. And so that trip was canceled, and I got to speak at a women's leadership conference because I was able to say yes to that. And I was very vulnerable. I didn't know what I was doing. It was for women in cable and telecommunications. And Maria Brennan, who was the CEO, called me and said, You need to talk about career pivots at the senior leadership conference. I was like, Marie, Maria, I'm in a personal pivot. Why would anyone want to hear from me? It's like, that's exactly why you have to. So I think Brené Brown is playing in my head and I think, I have to go and be brave, got to be courageous. And so I go and that blows my mind. This is a senior leadership conference in an industry where there's a lot of access to learning and great organizations that deliver education. And I was like, why are these women, some of them I know, why are they who are here to talk, going to listen to what I have to say? So I said, here's how I did it. And I was retired. So I had some headspace and I'm walking back to get the train home. And I thought, I'm no different than all those women that were in that room. So what was it that made me able to make the jumps that I did? And all these super talented women are struggling, and I thought I had access. And what does that mean, access? That means, for better or worse, somehow, because I didn't know what a mentor sponsor was, I got access to a mentor, I got access to role models, I got access to sponsors, I got that executive coach. And all of those things are scarce resources. Right at the end of the day, there's not enough of them. Not everybody gets that. I understand the economics of executive coaching. It's really expensive. And so I started to think about, what can I do about this? And I was like, Hang on, I know how to build software, I know content, I know data analytics. Wait a second. And so then I just started rocking on what could this be? And there you have it. So that was a very long-winded story of my drift from getting into being an immigrant, getting into corporate America, and then actually starting to create the idea of what a company could be. Andi Simon: But, I mean, remember, our job is to help people get off the brink. And you are an extraordinary role model, because in many ways, it wasn't as if you had a destination. You were curious and that curiosity and trust in yourself, and you can call it vulnerability. But that's a word that often doesn't mean anything. So just a cool word. Just supposed to be vulnerable. Well, what does that really mean? But what you found was that if you trusted your own feelings, calm instincts, you made some good decisions. Doesn't sound like you had many detours along the way, but you might have.  Gemma Toner: Oh, I did. Andi Simon: Yeah, I know we won't talk about it again. I want to be honest. Gemma Toner: I made lots of mistakes. You know, those were the highlights. You know, everybody makes mistakes. And so, again, I just like to be practical and honest. If you're not out there swinging and you're going to miss a lot, you're not going to get some of those peaks, right? I think that's really important for us to communicate because none of this is all hard.  Andi Simon: Well, you're talking about chance. You know, it could have been luck, yes, but life is a series of showing up. People say, How did you grow your business? I say, I showed up because who knows what's going to happen in the elevator when you meet Renée Mauborgne and she becomes a blue ocean strategist? I mean, the conversations are trusting that there's some magic here that's going to be, I don't know, magical. And so you have moved along without saying, I need to go help women, but you had an experience. And I want to emphasize that to our listeners. There was something experiential that said, Ooh, what is it? I could help those women because they need to see things through a fresh lens, and have the trust that this is why they feel the way they do? Why don't you begin your next story? Talk to us about Tone Networks because I am intrigued by how we can help women become the best they can be. I like men too, but it doesn't matter whether you're a guy or gal. I've coached both. I have many of them as clients but they all come and the brain hates change. It creates cortisol that says, This hurts. Help me do it. How am I going to help you do this? Because you need to do it. We need to figure out a way for you to see yourself in a new fashion, try some new things. So Tone Networks. And I'm not even sure how to understand the name of it because it's not physical. It's not toning you up, but it is toning you up. Um, so I'm curious. I'm curious. Out of it came this platform that is helping people, women in particular, become the best they can be. You share with us. How do you see it? How did you create it? Gemma Toner: You know, it's so funny yourself. It really is. Everything that I learned throughout that long-winded story I just shared with you really is used in the creation of this business. And so the data geek in me, how do you start a company? You know, again, I came from corporate, where I had started lots of new products. And so I knew my process which isn't necessarily what most startups do. So I was starting up as someone with corporate experience, so I don't know that I did it the right way, but I did it my way and my way was to start to really understand what the challenges women had. I didn't want to just trust my own self. And so we went out and did research and we did primary research. We did a national study, and we asked questions like, What stands in the way of your personal and professional development? Because long before the pandemic shone a light on the challenges that women have, I was a firm believer in my personal life did not get left at the threshold of my office door, that my personal and professional life were deeply intertwined, and the technology was going to make it even deeper. And so if we were going to solve and try to help women, I think we had to acknowledge that you didn't have clear boundaries. An example would be, I'm just about to go into a meeting and my daughter would text me. You know, Mom, I need you. But I mean, it happens to everyone. And whether it's a child or a parent or whatever, the gift of technology is we're more connected. It also interrupts us in some ways. So that's what we really looked to solve and what we did tons of research on, and I love research. So again, this is the geeky part of me. And what it bubbled up to were a couple of things. And it was when you asked women, all different ages, quite honestly, not just early- to mid-, all different types of women in different types of business categories. And it was this time factor. I don't have time to do sort of traditional learning. Access was made for me. I don't have time to go searching for everything and I just make it what I can. It's just for me, make it feel like it's just for me. And then the last, which is sort of the saddest, but it's a reality. It was confidence. And tucked under confidence was permission. And that whether we like it or not, the majority of women that were part of this study, and it was a statistically significant study, we're like, I need permission to take care of me. And I'm like, okay, so if that's what we need to do, then let's figure out how we can do this. And so that was really the beginning. And that became the pillars of Tone Networks. And so what Tone sets out to do is use microlearning. I am not a learning and development specialist. I know what it is to build products and content that engage audiences. And so that's really how we've created this learning tool. We've created it more like you would create a media experience than an education experience. We have no textbooks because what we're really looking to be is your TikTok for your personal professional development. So instead of going into that death scroll of Instagram or Snapchat or whatever, you can just jump on Tone and do something good for yourself and really enrich yourself. And so that's really our goal. That's how we make an impact. And what's really cool is we use technology to make it very personalized. So we ask you what you're interested in. The last thing I want to do is waste your time because I know how precious it is, because I've been there and I do not want to serve you things that you're not interested in. So if you are not a working parent, a working mom, we're not going to send you progressive parenting videos because that's not respectful. We need to be respectful of your time so that if you only have 3 or 5 minutes today because honestly, you just can't breathe, you can't catch a break, it's okay. We've got you. And so that's really how we developed the product. But we also developed it knowing, and again I know you're expert in this, behavioral change. And how do you know the nudge theory of behavioral change? So we've listened to women and they say, Make it for me. Make it easy. Give me a one, two, three because the last thing I want to do is write an essay or get homework, I have a long enough to-do list. And so what we did was, we made these really short-form videos, and at the end of every video we have your Tone Takeaways, which is kind of your one, two, three. The system actually sends you positive reinforcement the next morning and says, thank you for watching. Here are your Tone Takeaways. Why not? Because I'm being polite, but I am a very polite person. But because I want to remind you, you did something good for yourself and here you go. You can tell we worked with neuroscientists as well. We can pull that information out and recall it. And you know what, maybe you can take that first step or maybe you'll just watch it again. That's okay. Change is hard. I'm so with you when you say that, right? It is so hard. So that's part of the way the product works for the end user because we were designed to be both a consumer platform and a B2B platform. Right now we're working on the B2B front, but trust me, I want all women to get access to this, whether you're in corporate America or not. But today, that's where we are. And so what we can also do is help inform our business partners, the companies we work with, with a new data set. But this comes back to, my data geek days are anonymized. Why is it anonymized? Because if you won't watch, my boss is a narcissist. If you know that your company is tracking you. And you know what, if you have a boss that's a narcissist, you should know how to handle that. And I'm okay with that. If you don't have a boss, you have someone in your life. Everyone's got a narcissist somewhere. I mean, it's just an upward trend in our society. But the game plan here is to add value and new insights and to really be a contender. We are not looking to be your typical learning and development platform. There's plenty of companies out there doing that. We're really looking to deliver the knowledge that you get from having access to executive coaches and experts. The really good stuff that you get deeper in your career. Why shouldn't women have that earlier? Because my goodness, it really is life changing. And so that's really how we set out to do it. It was really listening to the audience talk about mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes. It took us a long time to get the format right, to get the tone right. We're in a good place now. I have to brag a little. We do have an NPS of 66, which is pretty darn amazing for such a young company. Andi Simon: So just saying, are you better with an NPS? Gemma Toner: Net promoter score? And so that's when you just have a simple question. You know, Would you refer a friend or family member to this? And the good news is, a majority, and that's a really hard number to get, of people are saying, Yeah, I would. So we have 95% of our business clients renewing. We know we're hitting it. And I think we're hitting it because, again, women don't have much time. And we have to really redesign and re-engineer how we run our lives, and you know how we are. Andi Simon: You know, Gemma, I'm listening and smiling because I share many of the same purposes and passions of wanting to take what we know and multiply it so others can rise with it. Sandra Quince says, As I climb the ladder, I lift other women with me. And I said, What a beautiful way of talking about what all of us are really interested in doing, not simply being acknowledged for accomplishments as you were and staying there, but thinking, I mean, your sabbatical was a growth period for you, but it didn't stay there. It wasn't just me on board. It was what I learned that I can now share and multiply joyfully so that I can lift others. And that is not inconsequential. And yeah, you can go speak, but when I walk out of the room at the end of a gig, as I know I want them to do one small win, you know, do an Oprah, one small win to lead you forward. But when will that be? How will I change? And it is purposeful and passionate. But you're also having a good time, aren't you? Gemma Toner: I am, and I have to also credit my mom and dad for, again, you know, being immigrants and coming here with not much in their pockets. I think what they instilled in us was, and I saw it, there were so many people that helped them along the way and I recognized that but I didn't know the terms. But the people that I would say helped me along the way, those mentors and sponsors, I don't forget them. And what I recognized when I had a moment to like, think and take a beat, was that not everybody gets that. And so that's where I think my father would always say, Never forget where you came from, always put out a helping hand. And that's the truth. And so I think, it does for me, it matters about my humble beginnings and being able to help more because we live in this country and we've been really fortunate. That means you give back. Let me clarify, I'm a capitalist. So this is not a nonprofit business. I believe in capitalism. And I also believe capitalism is probably the most effective way to create social change and upward mobility for women. But that's why I'm doing this. Andi Simon: You don't have to justify yourself. Gemma Toner: It's just, I think it's really important because someone says, Oh, is this a non-profit? I'm like, no, no, we're not. Andi Simon: You know, I met someone who's trying to change the way kids understand debt and it's not a not-for-profit. She's finally made herself a for-profit. And I said, That's good. It's okay to make money and to spread it. It's okay to remove the guilt factor because I'm in here for some profit. I don't quite know why we've given that such a bad name, but I do think there's something else about you as a woman leading others. People ask me, Do women lead differently? And I say, Well, I've had dozens of clients. And I was in corporate life for a long time. And are women different from men? Yes. But leaders need followers, and they don't follow people casually. They follow people they trust who can get them someplace together and who they believe are authentic and want to be accountable to. Do you find, you've had some good women bosses and men bosses, and do you think that women are leading differently or are we just women?  Gemma Toner: I think it depends, and I think it's, men, women, it really depends on the individuals. There's some great male leaders. There's some great women leaders. There's also both not so great, so do I think I led differently? Probably not early in my career. I would say I, probably just like the female role models that I was emulating, they were leading like men. And so I would say as I became more comfortable as a leader,  I definitely had a different approach. I actually sometimes, early in my career, when I was running a region, when I saw my old team, I apologized to them. And I'm like, Thank you for still being my friend because I was really rough around the edges as a young leader. And you kind of grow into, at least I did, grow into the way you want to lead. Andi Simon: Well, I do think that the value you brought to everyone along the entire way was your curiosity, this kind of openness to see things through. You wanted to bring a social anthropologist on because we know that out of context, data do not exist. What does all this data mean? Well, it can mean anything. I want it for myself. So which data do I have to do? And then how do I interpret it so that it makes the most sense. So it's really interesting. I think you and I could talk a great deal for a lot of reasons, and I'm enjoying every minute of it. Thank you for sharing with us today. For our audience, one or two or three things you don't want them to forget? What would be some real good takeaways? Gemma Toner: You know, I have to say, the takeaway, as much as I was long-winded is, You don't forget where you came from. You know, always look back. I also think some of the takeaways that I had in the book really are important to me. And that is, Get out there and just start, raise your hand. Even though I can tell you, most of the big opportunities I had, I was not the first choice. And that's okay. It's okay to be the consolation prize because it's what you make of it. And they were great opportunities. Two of my big opportunities, I was not the first choice, but I hung in there and I didn't have all the skills they wanted. But, last man standing, I got it, you know? So I think that's really important because so many of us are just like, Oh no, that's over my head. No it's not, give it a go. I think the other is, Just keep going. It's hard. Let's not kid ourselves and let's not mislead each other with, sort of saying, it's all perfect. It's not, but you will get through it. And I think what's really important about that is, and it does take a little time, and I didn't always do this myself, so I want to be really honest about finding people that are like you that can support you. So it's having that personal board of directors. It's also having a few friends and friendly faces that can help you when you're just having a really tough day and can also celebrate with you as well. Andi Simon: Well, we're people and we need others, and they need to be trusting and trustworthy. And trusting is important, that we have folks we can turn to and can I just vent? You know, it's not an uncommon call I make to my favorite friend, can I just vent? Then by the time I'm done, she says, You feel better? I said, Oh, that was perfect. I just needed a safe and an executive coach. But even there, sometimes you just go talk to your friend, let it come out. You know, we had an ERG presentation the other day, for Eightfold, a company out on the West Coast, a software designing company. Really cool folks. One of the women said, you know, do women really have to check off all the boxes before they can move up? And all of us, there were three of us, said, That's not how you're going to move up. The move up really comes when you really don't know what you don't know, because you can't possibly ever have all the boxes checked. Believe in yourself and offer yourself as a smart person who can grow. And those are better words than, Am I ready? You're never ready then. You know, I never became ready. Gemma Toner: And I like to remind my team, We'll figure it out. Andi Simon: Yes, we'll figure it out. It's a complex problem to solve. That's exactly right. Gemma Toner: Figure it out and just know you don't have to figure it out by yourself. You can ask a lot of people to help you. Andi Simon: Yes, and you won't ever be exactly right. Perfection isn't really necessary. And so all kinds of wisdoms. This is such fun. So let me wrap up. I do want to thank you, and the National Association of Women Business Owners, who owns the trademark on our book Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And we always like to recognize them and thank them for the use of their title for our book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And as you can hear, Gemma Toner is one of those extraordinary leaders. And our conversation today was to help you spark your success. Get off the brink. Keep going. Be perfect. The books are all on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. My three books are there, with the third one, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman. I hope you have fun with them. I actually had somebody shoot a picture of one of my books on the beach where he was reading it and I went, Oh my gosh, a beach read. I didn't know I had a beach read! Gemma Toner: Andi, can I plug one event that we have coming up? It's going to be in March. It's a pay equity event that's free for all women. So all of your listeners and men are welcome. LinkedIn will be promoting it everywhere. It's really about getting women particularly equitable pay. And this will not be about talking about the stats. This will actually be practical tips as to how you make sure you are getting paid fairly. So mark your calendar in March. Andi Simon: Sometime in March though, we have to come back to Tone sometime in March. Gemma Toner: It'll be on the day. Yeah, it's actually, we're just waiting to get the actual date. March 15th, something like that. It's on Pay Equity Day. It's something, again, you talk about purpose. It's very important to us. Andi Simon: Despite the fact that Barack Obama signed the Lilly Ledbetter Law in January of 2009. It's not always true that women get paid what they should get paid for the same job that the guy is, much less at the same time. It's really tough. Oh, boy, we can keep going, but we're not. We're going to sign off, say goodbye. Come again. Send me your favorites so I can bring them on. And I have a lot of great women and men to share with you coming up. It's been wonderful. Goodbye now, and thanks again. Bye bye.     WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Learn how to nurture your unique gifts for a career you really love. I bring to you today Lorraine Hariton, a brilliant women with a brilliant career who shows us that success doesn't have to come in a straight line, it can have many twists and turns. As one of the 102 women featured in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and myself, Lorraine is President and CEO of Catalyst, a powerhouse non-profit dedicated to helping women thrive, from the shop floor to the C-suite, so that everyone can be successful by their own definition. What I love is that Catalyst not only focuses on how women can be effective and improve their capabilities and skills, but on changing the work environment by creating workplaces that work for women. Want to learn about the future of work? Listen in. Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from my conversation with Lorraine Life is a journey. And that journey is to understand what your passions are, what gets you excited, what gets you up every day enjoying it. In terms of your skills, what do you have with which you can contribute the most to this world?  There are lots of chapters in life. Make sure that you have the resiliency and the learning mindset to go from one chapter to the next. Life can take you in different directions, but you've got to be a lifelong learner. You've got to lean into your strengths.  Periods of transition can be real opportunities. Align your strengths and what you really love to do behind your passions. To connect with Lorraine, you can find her on LinkedIn. Want to know more about women breaking barriers in the workforce? Start with these: Blog: How Can Women Overcome The Roadblocks To Building Their Businesses? Blog: Best Tips And Tricks For Women To Work In Male-Dominated Industries Podcast: Kerry Flynn Barrett—Learn Why So Many Brilliant Women Have Ditched The Corporate Ladder To Start Their Own Business Pocast: Jennifer McCollum—How Will You Change The Face Of Women's Leadership In Your Organization? Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman  Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, because so many of you come to listen to our podcast, my job is to get you off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways so you can change, and the times are changing quickly now. I look for guests who are going to help you understand things from a fresh perspective. Today I have Lorraine Hariton here with me. She is a marvelous person who is in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And when you hear what she's going to tell you today, you'll know why Women Mean Business has been such an absolutely amazing experience. Every time I open the book, it sheds new light on what women are doing in business. Lorraine's bio: She's president and CEO of Catalyst. Now, if you're not familiar with Catalyst, it's a global nonprofit working with the world's most powerful CEOs and leading companies to build workplaces that work for women. Catalyst's vision and mission are to accelerate progress for women through workplace inclusion. This lifelong passion for Lorraine has helped her build a career with senior level positions in Silicon Valley as an entrepreneur and executive, and beginning at IBM, Lorraine then served in the administration in the Department of State and developed the global STEM Alliance at the New York Academy of Sciences. She has also served on the UN Women Global Innovation Coalition For Change, the Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford University, and the Forum for Women Entrepreneurs and Executives, but it is as president of Catalyst that I met Lorraine. And that's what we're going to talk about today: about what organizations can do to really build workplaces that work for women. Lorraine, thank you so much for coming today. Lorraine Hariton: Andrea, thank you so much. It's my pleasure to be here. Andi Simon: It's so much fun. Tell the audience more about your journey because I can read the bio. But you've had a wonderful career with a passion and purpose, and I'd like you to share that if you could. Lorraine Hariton: So first of all, I want to say that the career that you just talked about is very different from the career I might have imagined when I was young. It's gone in a lot of different directions. And I look forward to sort of talking about that. So when I was a child, my biggest influence was really my mother, specifically when she came into the workplace, which was in the 50s. She was originally a teacher. And like many of her generation, she went back. She left the workplace when she had her three children. But then she went back and got a master's degree and eventually a PhD in psychology, actually around women's sexual fantasies during intercourse. It was very controversial. She ended up on the front cover of Psychology Today, and then she had the next phase, a career as a psychologist and a lecturer out on Long Island. So she really gave me a sense that you can have different phases in your life, you can accomplish different things, and women should have independent, strong careers. So she was a big influence. Then the other big influence on me was, I had dyslexia, I still have dyslexia. And because of that, I had certain real strengths and certain things that were limitations. I wasn't very popular. I wasn't a great athlete, but I was good in math. I ended up using that math ability to have a career in technology very early on. In fact, when I was in college — I originally went to college in upstate New York, at Hamilton College — my calculus professor suggested that I take an independent study computer science course at Hamilton College before there were even computers on campus. We just had a teletype terminal into the Air Force base in Rome, New York. But I wrote my own computer program. I fell in love with it, and it caused me to transfer to Stanford, where even at Stanford, they didn't actually have a computer science degree. Undergraduate is math sciences, math, computer science, statistics, and operations research. But it really gave me this great foundation into something that my first passion was really around: computers and the application of computers into solving problems. So I transferred to Stanford. I got a sense of that environment. I ended up taking a job, actually, back in New York for American Airlines, doing a big linear programming model for ferrying fuel around the American Airline system. But, I decided I didn't really like just programming. I wanted to do something that was more people oriented within the computer industry. So at that time, IBM was a big place to work. It was like the Google or the Apple of the time. So I got a job actually in sales working for IBM, and I worked in the apparel industry in New York, knocking on doors, selling mid-sized computers to the apparel industry, which was really fun. I really enjoyed it and I excelled at it. So I decided I wanted to be on the business side of the technology industry. I went back to Harvard Business School, got my MBA, and decided to go back to California working for IBM, the next level in the sales track at IBM. And there was the other reason I went back to IBM: to look into all the jobs at Harvard Business School that IBM had for women in leadership roles. It had the ability to balance career and family and a proven track record of enabling women to do that. I was really looking for a workplace where I could be successful balancing career and family, which is still the number one challenge for women in business. And, through my work at Catalyst, I see that every day. So I went back to IBM, but eventually I went into Silicon Valley. IBM actually acquired a company in Silicon Valley. I went to work for them. And then I ended up having a career at IBM. So I started in Silicon Valley, started at IBM, and then I left them to go to become an executive at a mid-sized company. And eventually I actually did two startups in Silicon Valley. So I had a career at all these different levels. But in my early 50s, I wanted to really do something that was more impactful. I had had a successful career there and I became involved in women's leadership issues because really that was a defining thing around my success and my lived experience. I initially got involved in the Forum for Women Entrepreneurs and Executives that became WaterMark. That was a women's leadership network in Silicon Valley. I really benefited from my relationships that I had with women in Silicon Valley. We all bonded together. We even did great trips, like we went to India and Vietnam together. I went to the Clayman Institute for Gender Research. I then decided to, after I left my second startup, to get involved in helping Hillary Clinton run for President of the United States in the 2008 cycle. So I took all my sales skills and my business skills that I had learned, and I focused on fundraising for her. And as a result of that, I became one of her top fundraisers in the Bay area and really expanded my network. I got to know a lot of people and that enabled me to go to work for her, even though she didn't win the the nomination, of course, we all know, but to work for her at the State Department as a special representative for commercial and business affairs. And, by the way, through all of this, I had my two children. I raised my two children in Palo Alto, California. And of course, that was the other part of my life that was, is, and continues to be very important. I now have three grandchildren as well as part of that. So that balance of career and family has always been important to me. I also will mention that being in Silicon Valley in tech in those days had a lot of challenges. And I think that is why that's been so important to me as the second major passion that has driven my life. This focus on women in the workplace, and understanding that I was part of the first generation of women who really came of age after the very substantial change in the women's movement that happened in the late 60s and early 70s, that opened up the doors for women to have real careers.  Like my mother, in her generation, you didn't have young children and work. You couldn't go into the workplace and have a career. We read about Sandra Day O'Connor recently. We know that she wasn't able to do that. Ruth Bader Ginsburg wasn't able to do that. I was part of that generation that went into the workplace that was able to look ahead and develop a career, and was thinking about balancing career and family. But we had a very, very rigid environment. You know, when I had my first child in 1985, we had to order business maternity suits from a catalog. I could only take six weeks off because they didn't have maternity leaves. They just had disability, and when I've met with some of my friends and we talked about this, we all had the same circumstances, didn't have the type of environment that you have right now. So I have that perspective of wanting to change that workplace. And we still have work to do on that. So my reason for wanting to help Hillary at the time when I had the luxury to be able to do that, was because I really wanted to see the world change in the first woman president. But not only did I pursue that passion and use the skills that I had learned through my business and for my sales career to help her, it opened up a whole new avenue for me that became the next chapter in my life for ten years, really focused on that. So I went to the State Department, and in the State Department, it was great. I was able to travel all around the world representing the United States, help businesses overseas, do diplomatic agenda around economic and business issues. And I also launched a big program called the Global Entrepreneurship Program, which is still at the State Department, where we worked on capacity-building in countries to take our innovation agenda and bring it overseas as part of our diplomatic agenda. So that was a very fulfilling experience. I left in 2014 because it was a political appointment. It ended and then I thought, well, I think there's a very good chance she would run again. So I did a portfolio career of doing consulting. I worked at the New York Academy of Science, as you mentioned, doing business development for them, and launched this Global STEM Alliance program. I launched a great program called 1000 Girls, 1000 Futures, which was a virtual mentoring program for girls in STEM. I helped Hillary but of course, we know the end of that story and that didn't happen. And by then I was lucky enough to be recruited to Catalyst, which has been just a wonderful opportunity for me. So I joined them in 2018. I am going to be retiring from Catalyst when we find a replacement. So it's been about a five and a half years' journey at this point that's been really fulfilling for me because it really has aligned this great passion I have with all the things I've learned over my career to really make change for that organization and to really impact women in the workplace. Andi Simon: You know, as I listen to you, and I want to stay focused on your career, but for the listener or the viewer, there wasn't a straight line. This was a journey with detours and serendipity and moments and all kinds of things that you capitalized on. Were you particularly risk averse or were you particularly adventuresome? I mean, when I take my archetype, I'm an explorer or a philosopher, and I've been to 37 countries and I worked abroad many times. I, like you, don't need a structure, I need opportunity. I need an adventure. Sounds like you have had adventure through life without care about whether or not it was the end, it was onto something new. Tell the listener a little bit about how you do that? Do you do that with that particular mindset that simply says, go for it, what the heck? Or do you have to plan it out? Lorraine Hariton: Well, you know, I've evolved over time. I am very planful. And in the beginning of my career, I was focused. When I joined IBM, they had a clear path for you. You didn't have to think about it. “This is what you needed to do.” And I bought into that path. Over time, sometimes when I had my biggest bumps in my life because I've been fired, I've been put someplace else, maybe not fired, but it was a detour. Those things have happened. But, you know, out of those things, in those moments of reflection, is when I think I was able to grow the most, to really learn and reflect on my strengths and weaknesses and what motivates me and to reorient myself. These periods of transition can be real opportunities. And in my late 40s and early 50s is when I really started to understand that what I needed to do is to align my strengths and what I really love to do behind my passions, and to let the universe help me understand what those passions are. And in fact, that's what I'm doing right now, as I look to my next chapter after Catalyst. I'm trying to open up the aperture and give myself time to evolve and think and let the universe take me in the direction, but with an understanding of what I really enjoy, where I have passion, what I'm really good at, where I give, and even in this moment, I try this out, I'm not that excited. Try this out, yes, I'm really excited about it. And yes, I find that I can do the things that I really am in the zone on, that I naturally do well and then I focus on those things. So that evolution, it's not really a risk thing. I'm a pragmatist. I'm very practical, focused, like a doer, but this understanding that life can take you in different directions, but you've got to be a lifelong learner. You've got to lean into your strengths. You got to evolve those is the way I found the most meaning and purpose and fulfillment. Andi Simon: And to your point, when people say to me, how did you get to be a corporate anthropologist? I say, I made it up. And they say, you know, the imposter syndrome. I say, I've lived my whole life doing imposter stuff. I've never been fully skilled at whatever I've been. I spent 20 years in industry as an executive, in banks and in health care. I was a tenured professor, and I've been in business for 21 years now, making it up as we go along because each client's different, each opportunity is different. But the joy is the joy of creating. And I think that what you've done at Catalyst, and I want to go back to Catalyst for a moment, because I do think it's been joyful for you, but it's been a creative process. My hunch is, you've brought it along in a way that has been quite meaningful for you in the organization. Can you share with us a little bit about your own thoughts about Catalyst, about what's happened in women in the workplace? Because this is not inconsequential. When I was an executive, I went to board meetings. There were 49 men and no other women than me. We didn't say much. We sat there hoping we could finish the meeting without getting in trouble. It's a different world today. What do you see happening and how is Catalyst doing stuff? Lorraine Hariton: Well, when I came to Catalyst in 2018, Catalyst had been around almost 60 years, and it's an iconic organization. For those of you who are not familiar, we have around 500 major corporations. We have a board of directors made up of CEOs of major organizations. I mean, it's really a who's who and has a tremendous brand, but the organization itself had lost some momentum. So I was brought as a change agent. I sometimes say, it was this beautiful brownstone in Brooklyn Heights that the old lady had not been renovating as much as they should have. So I had to do a lot of infrastructure and internal changes as well as set the strategy and the plan. It's really been a transformation. And we're still transforming. The rate of change, the rate of technological change, is so great that every organization needs to move forward. And what Catalyst needed to do as an organization has changed over time. We celebrated our 60th anniversary a couple of years ago, so I really had a lot of opportunities to reflect on what Catalyst was. Catalyst started with a woman who had been a Smith College graduate who wanted to go into business, and after her children got into school, she saw the doors were closed for her because in many cases, classified as gendered. You know, you could be a secretary, but you couldn't be a salesperson. You couldn't be an executive. Very limited choice. So her objective was to provide part time work for educated women after their kids were in school. That's what she was trying to do. Today we're trying to help women thrive, from the shop floor to the C-suite, so that everyone can be successful by their own definition. Now, along the way, there's been a lot of changes in what Catalyst focused on. And of course, what happened for women in the workplace. One of the key things that changes Catalyst is a focus not only on how women can be effective and improve their capabilities and skills, but how we change the work environment. That's why we now talk about our mission of creating workplaces that work for women. So a lot of Catalyst's work is helping these companies create the environment where women can be successful. Catalyst does research and it provides a whole range of tools and capabilities to help these companies be successful, and then a lot of community and convenings to bring them together to share best practices, the need for tools and capabilities, in addition to research, has accelerated over the last ten years or so as companies really dig in to make those changes to create that environment that works for women. So we think about things like: now we call them paternity leaves, not just maternity leaves. And in many cases in the large companies, they're as much as four months and they're trying to get men to do them as well as women. That's a sea change, more flexibility. The whole pandemic accelerated this move to more flexible working, but that's something Catalyst has been talking about for a long time. Measuring change is really important and that's evolved. Our most recent report that we're going to be putting out shows that 93% of companies, large companies in the Catalyst portfolio, do pay equity studies. Now, even five years ago, they were not doing that. So that's changed. The environment has changed radically and Catalyst has evolved with it. Also the infrastructure to support the types of skills we need, the type of technology we need, has evolved with it. But you know, just to think about this, today there are over 10% women CEOs in the Fortune 500. In my early career in the 80s and the 90s, every year that they would come out with the Fortune 500, I would look and the only person who was the CEO was Katharine Graham, who took over The Washington Post when her husband committed suicide. Now she did a great job, but she was not doing it all on her own merit. What we see is the women who came into the workplace, like I did in the early 70s, early to mid-70s, all but in the 1950s, all entered the workplace in the 70s. Those are the ones who became CEOs around the turn of the 21st century, starting with Jill Barad at Mattel, Andrea Jung at Avon, Anne Mulcahy at Xerox, followed by Ursula Burns, Ginni Rometty at IBM, Indra Nooyi at PepsiCo…a diverse group of really talented, amazing women were the first group who really were able to do that. Over the last five years, we've doubled. We now have over 30% women on boards. And in the Catalyst community, we have over 30%  in senior leadership, in our membership. So what that means is there's a new norm that's a critical mass, 30% is critical mass. So we are critical mass on a lot of these measures. That is why Catalyst now is not focusing on women on boards. We're focusing on how all women can thrive from the shopfloor to the sweep and every level. So that's an evolution of who Catalyst is. I've been driving that broader definition of success as we've evolved to what really needs to be done, and also in response to companies who understand that women have 60% of the undergraduate degrees now. They're graduating more law degrees and more medical degrees. We have a much more diverse population. We're focused on diversity. And that is why there's a lot of things, a lot of political issues around DEI as a word. But the fact of the matter is, companies are very committed, so they know they have to have a diverse workforce. They've all got to work together. They've all got to feel like they belong. And in the United States and around the world, we have to be able to work together to have a really impactful, innovative workforce. So that's what we're working on. Andi Simon: I am having such fun listening to you. And I don't know if you and I have had enough time for me to hear, or my audience to hear, how the world has changed. Remember, I'm a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. What I love to do is change, and what you are articulating is your own career evolved. Catalyst's whole mission and purpose have evolved, and the workplace that you are focused on is evolving into a whole new and much better, inclusive, exciting place for women to thrive. And isn't this exciting to watch and see? I'm not quite sure it's going to go backwards, because I think that the pressure from talented women for new ways of doing things is going to transform the workplace. You know, how do you have a blended life, if not a balanced life. I met one person who was building childcare at the office because he knew that was the only way he was going to keep his workforce. What's so hard? Why are we not paying attention to our children? You know, bring them to work and make them part of the whole culture that we have here. And I don't think the pandemic has been all that bad. My clients that I coached during that time, we're actually having a wonderful experience of being home and working and doing it with a different use of time and space. But it's a really interesting opportunity for you to see that and now to think through what's next, a radical next. Because I have a hunch you'd love to radically change the next phase in some fashion. It's technology, it's transformation, it's new openness to it. What do you see coming next? Lorraine Hariton: Well, you mentioned technology and I mentioned I am a technologist by training. Technology drives change now. The changes that allowed women to become part of the workforce were driven by the birth control field, the vacuum cleaner, electrification, the reduction of the need for women to stay home and do all these tasks. The knowledge worker being the key person in the workplace. And that's only accelerating. So we should understand we are the result of the worlds we live in. My mother was a result of that. RBG was a result of that. My daughter is going to be a result of the environment that she's a part of, as well as my grandchildren. So technology is the biggest driver of those changes. We are going to be living in a world where I hope we have more flexibility to integrate career and family, and to really be able to have women really have equal ability to make their own decisions on how they want to balance their life. I mean, that's what we're trying to do so that every woman thrives by their own definition of success. So that's what we're working towards. Andi Simon: You know, I'm sitting and listening and I'm hopeful. I have a woman I know who's president of a large insurance company. And we were sitting and talking not too long ago. She said, Well, let me tell you, I was a coat girl. She said, I'd walk into Lloyd's of London with a deal, and they'd hand me their coats as the men walked in, one after another, they thought I was a coat girl. And finally after they all had sat down, and I turned around and sat at the head of the table and saidy, Now let me tell you about the deal I brought you. And the guys all went, Oh! And she said, Do you think that will ever stop? And I said, Yes. I'm not sure when but I guess you could have stopped it if you wanted to at that moment. But somehow the woman has to be able to comfortably say, I'm sorry, but the coat rack is over there, or No, I'm not taking notes today. Who shall we have as our note-taker today? How do we assert ourselves in a way that establishes a more balanced role? Now you're smiling at me. You're thinking about something. What are you thinking of?  Lorraine Hariton: I think there's a two way street here. Catalyst has done a lot of work on this. Not only do the women need to do that, but the men need to become advocates and allies for women in the workplace. In fact, Catalyst has a whole initiative called MARC: Men Advocating Real Change. We're helping the men understand how they can be part of that change because I think the clearest example is, they say that women don't negotiate for salary increases as well as men. There's a big pay gap, and it's a result of this. It's not just the women not negotiating. It's the culture that doesn't enable them to negotiate. So a woman in general is much better off with someone else asking. Because it's like this poster that I have in the back here from an unconscious bias campaign we did which says: She's not aggressive, she's assertive. Well, if a man goes and asks for a raise, he's assertive and he should get a raise. A woman goes in, she's aggressive, you know. So, we've got to do both of those things. Andi Simon: I often preach that the words we use create the worlds we live in. And you just made an important point there, because the word that you use takes the same behavior and makes it good or bad. And it is very interesting because the definers of those meanings…humans are meaning makers. And if the guys are the definers of the meaning, one thing happens. But somehow we've got to get a balance in how we think about the behavior as being. Is it assertive or is it aggressive? Well, it's the same behavior. Who's defining it? And how do we then create a mirror back so the women know that that's the right behavior and the guys understand that that's not acceptable from them. I work with some companies where I watch the guys' backlash and I say, Why don't we collaborate on the transformation instead of becoming adversarial or resisters to it? Change is humanly painful. The brain hates it. So let's create a new story because we're story-makers. And if I can create a new story, then we can live that new story. But if we're going to fight the story out, it's going to be quite interesting. I know too many women who have left corporate because they were tired of the story that put them in the wrong role, and they went out to launch their own business or find some other place. And so it's an interesting time for women to see what can be done and for men to help create a new environment. Are there some illustrative cases that you can share, or are they all proprietary and it's not possible to share them? Any kind of story that might illustrate how it's actually happening? Lorraine Hariton: Well, I will say there are many, many stories of success. If you go to the Catalyst website, we have tons of success stories, the stories of companies that transformed themselves. We have The Catalyst Award that we give out every year at our big annual conference in Denver. People nominate themselves. They go through an application process. It was very rigorous last year. The Hartford is one of the winners of it. They have transformed the company at every level with all the things we're talking about, measurements. They were able to get affecting bias sponsorship programs, really changing the fundamental culture of the organization. You can listen to what they do, but there's hundreds of examples of companies that have done great jobs around it. And of course, we have lots of examples. I mentioned some of the trailblazers, the Fortune 500, you read interviews, and books. And so there are many, many examples of successes, people who've affected the odds. People, companies who've done a great job of changing the culture. It's all over the place. So rather than name a specific one, I think that's good. Andi Simon: And if people are looking for companies to work for, they probably can find illustrations at Catalyst and your website to begin to go through. And that is a real resource to be available. You know, this has been such fun. I think that we're probably ready to share with our listeners or our viewers 1 or 2 things you want them to remember and then how to reach you if they'd like more information about you or about Catalyst. What do you think?  Lorraine Hariton: That sounds great. I think the overriding thing to say is that life is a journey. And that journey is to understand what your passions are, what gets you excited, what gets you up every day enjoying it, and then what do you really enjoy? In terms of your skills, what do you have the most to contribute to this world? And if you can align those, that's what I try to do. The other thing is to realize that there are lots of chapters in life, and you would need to make sure that you have the resiliency and the learning mindset to go from one chapter to the next and open the aperture around it. I'm happy to talk to anyone on this call. You can go to the Catalyst website at catalyst.org if you want to learn more about the work that we're doing. You can get ahold of me that way as well. I'm going to be going on to my next chapter as well. So I'm opening the aperture up. Andi Simon: Well, I can't wait to hear about your next chapter. I have a hunch it's going to be full of adventure and joy and beauty. And you leave behind you better places and with great purpose. Move forward. So it's been a pleasure. Thank you for joining us today. Lorraine Hariton: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. I really enjoyed it. Andi Simon: I just think it's a special moment to be able to go both into your life and all the work that you're doing in the wonderful way it's making a difference for my listeners and my viewers. Thank you for always coming. Remember, our job is to help you see, feel and think of new ways. And I think that a visit to Catalyst might help you see organizations that are already doing this and want to keep it going, and you can as well. My books Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, and our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman are all available at Amazon and Barnes & Noble for you. It gives you a perspective both of how anthropology sees the world and helps you change, and what we see happening, particularly for women. 102 women in Women Mean Business are all here to help you change your life. We often say turn a page and change your life. Lorraine's chapter is wonderful. I love her little thing. Here she talks about how she navigated with her dyslexia and her principal is major. Your major is to nurture your unique gifts. And that's what we heard about today. Thanks again. Thanks, Lorraine. It's been a pleasure. Bye bye.   WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how a family firm can remember its roots while focusing on the future  As they say, family is family and business is business. But in many cases, the two can coexist, often quite profitably. Did you know that almost 80% of the businesses in the U.S. are owned and run by families? As a corporate anthropologist, a culture change expert and a daughter raised in a family business, I have a particularly strong interest in family firms, which is why I'm so excited to bring to you Dylan Rexling, the fifth generation to work in his family's farm operations in southwestern Indiana. He read my book On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and was inspired to incorporate many of its teachings into the way he runs his company. Whether or not you have a family firm, listen in to learn about running a successful business. Dylan is that rare business owner who values every employee and actually listens to his customers. Key takeaways from our conversation: Get to know your employees. He has a monthly Friday breakfast where everyone talks about who they are, why they're at the company, and what their goals are. Admit you're not perfect. Dylan's message to his workers: “My door's open. Come see me. If we do something that we shouldn't have done, or we said it in a way that we shouldn't have, come talk to us because we don't know if you don't tell us.” Culture is very important in a business. He specifically hired culture experts who brought in the concept of culture to the organization. Always be willing to learn and get better. There's always room to go a step higher. Do everything you can to service your customer. If they need something, do everything in your power to say yes, even if it's not easy. The old saying is still true: the customer is first. Treat your employees well. And your customers. Dylan writes an anniversary card to every one of his employees every time they hit an anniversary date. “I just write a little thank you that says, ‘I really appreciate your contributions to our team and look forward to working with you in the future.'” He also sends handwritten notes to customers thanking them for their business. “I think those little things are what matter.” Take a step back and look at your business from a high level. “And I think you'll be very happy that you did so well,” he notes. To connect with Dylan, you can find him on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter or his website PFL Logistics. Want to learn more about the importance of culture, especially in family firms? Podcast: Jake Manthei—A Family Firm That Lives Blue Ocean Strategy® Podcast: Amy Bruske—A Guide for Sustaining Great Family Businesses Podcast: Marcella Bremer—Build a Better Business With an Amazing, Positive Culture Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman  Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, what I love to do is find people that are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways because that's how you open your mind and begin to see opportunities. We often say, the future is all around us, it's just not widely distributed yet. But what if what's happening is something you could see so that you can understand it? Maybe I can as well, because in some ways, the story that you're going to hear today is going to help you rethink what you're doing and begin to open that door so that you can get off the brink. I have with me today, Dylan Rexing. I'm honored to share him with you. I met him out in Indianapolis at a Vistage group, and I think what they're doing is transformational to an industry that's sluggish. I'm going to let him tell you more about it, but let me tell you about his bio. Dylan Rexing is president and CEO of Rexing Companies, an Evansville-based network of family-owned and operated companies. So if you have a family firm or are thinking of building one, this is really good insights to share. Dylan is fifth generation in his family's farm operations, where he grew up learning the value of hard work and financial responsibility. But under his leadership, the Logistics Division of PFL Logistics has earned recognition as one of the 5,000 fastest growing private companies for the past four years. I'm going to let him tell you his story, but I think you're going to enjoy his journey because it'll change your own story about what's possible. If only you can open your mind to see and then do some observation into innovation. Dylan, thank you for joining me today. I'm so excited to have you. Dylan Rexing: Yeah, thanks for having me. Good seeing you again. Andi Simon: It's good to see you again. Dylan said he was away and read my book and I went, Oh, isn't that good reading on the beach? And I appreciate it. Dylan, please, let's hear your story. Your journey as you were sharing it with me is really a perfect setup for today's talk. Dylan Rexing: So, as you had mentioned, I'm generation five in our family business. When I took over the family operation, we were really just an agricultural-based company. We farm about 3000 acres. We had 120,000 chickens. And I took over out of college. I have a bachelors in accounting. And I determined that I didn't want everything that we did to be out of our control. So as a farming operation, we're not in control of the weather. So when we plant our crops is not determined by us, the yields that we get are also determined by Mother Nature. Then when we take it to market, it's really what the market bears. And so I sort of took over our organization. We still farm. It's still part of our legacy. Farmers are a backbone of the American economy. I don't want to necessarily downplay that by any means. It's still an important part of our business. But I sort of took our business and made a full 360. We have about 90 employees today in the supply chain space. And so we have three companies: cold storage, warehouse trucks and a trucking company where we have trucks and drivers, and then a freight company where we sort of work with our customers and partner with our customers to move freight all over the country. And so, for me, as you mentioned, I was on vacation last week and you were nice enough to give me a copy of your book On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, and I read it and talked about how you sort of put on a different lens and look at the world in a different way. It resonated with me. If you get an email from me, at the very bottom underneath my signature it says: “The most dangerous phrase in the English language is ‘as we've always done it.'” Andi Simon: Dylan, you have no idea how many clients hire me to help them change that. The first thing they say is, No, we don't do it that way. And I say, Then you don't need me. If that's the way you're going to do it, the habits will drive you. But the times are changing, and maybe those habits are no longer viable or valuable or reliable for you. But, you know, you have a curious mind. And as you and I were talking, that curiosity factor is not to be underestimated. How did you begin to figure out the logistics part? Or, you could have abandoned where you were, but you didn't. You could have sold it, which you haven't. But now you've taken a bigger picture and have begun to develop a new set of solutions for the whole supply chain of. And I have a hunch there's some interesting new things coming as well. How did you begin? Where did it start? Dylan Rexing: Well, believe it or not, you might wonder, how does agriculture and supply chain tie together? And the fact of the matter is, it's very common for farmers to own supply chain-driven businesses. For example, farmers have to have semis and trailers to take product out of the fields and take them to market. But they only do that for several weeks or a month or so, two months a year. So you buy this equipment and it just sort of collects dust per se. So the way it started was, we had all this equipment lying around that we were trying to figure out, What do we do with it? And then the cold storage business is kind of the diamond in the middle that sort of connects it all. Our cold storage business: we have customers, big and small, from large poultry companies to bakeries to anything in the middle. And so those all tie in because of the stuff that we store in our warehouse. Our cold storage food product that we store, it has to get to market. It has to get to the grocery store, or it has to get to a plant to be further processed. And so it was all sort of tied together through a supply chain lens. Andi Simon: Now your clients come to you for any particular reason? Have you differentiated your cold storage in some fashion? Is it fully integrated? You make it simple and easy for them. What are the kind of core attributes of it? Dylan Rexing: So we like to tell folks, we're a one-stop shop. So you can call us and we can store your products, you can call us and we can haul your products. We don't necessarily have to, but we just try to make it easy and convenient for our customers. The cold storage business is pretty niche. There aren't a ton of companies in the US that are in the cold storage warehouse space and buy cold storage warehouses. For your listeners that maybe don't understand that, it's basically a building where we store products that are frozen, refrigerated, fresh, so that they're nice and healthy for folks in the supply chain, but just a high level of how that works. Andi Simon: Okay. But you bring them into the cold storage. You said that there aren't many cold storage businesses, and I am always curious whether you're doing it like everyone else. And, you and I were together when we talked about being another “red ocean,” or someone who is creating a market. And I hear you because you make it simpler and easier for your clients to get what they need done without having to work as hard, making it simple instead of complex, and beginning to see ways to add value innovatively so that maybe it's not a Blue Ocean®, but it has all the attributes of a good market creator, not simply “we are another.” Am I saying that correctly? Dylan Rexing: So I would say, there's only two large players in the cold storage business that own over 60% of the market. And so one of the ways we differentiate ourselves is by answering the phone when the customer calls. No offense to large companies, but when they get big, there's several layers of folks in the middle. And so one of the ways we differentiate ourselves is, we personalize our approach to the customer. If they need something, we do everything in our power to say yes, even if it's not easy. And so I think ultimately the farming background that I have is sort of driven by the fact that, it sounds a little cheesy, but the customer is first. And we do everything that we can to service that customer. And interestingly enough, most of our customer base does business with all three of our companies. So we try to anchor them in from one or the other and then convert them from being just a single customer to three of our operating entities. But our secret sauce really is just doing what we say we're going to do, answering phones, answering emails, and just providing a good service. Andi Simon: How interesting, simple and yet very profound and very much appreciated and needed by your community, by your markets. Are you located just in Indiana or are you across the country or where are you located? Dylan Rexing: So our warehouses, we have four locations in Indiana, all in southwest or southeastern Indiana. Our trucking division, we have a location in Owensboro, Kentucky, about 45 minutes from us here. And we also have an operation in the Carolinas. We have several employees out there in the Charlotte, North Carolina area, a little city called Troy. So we aren't all over the country, but we have trucks that travel in all contiguous 48 states. But our headquarters is mainly here in southwestern Indiana. Andi Simon: It sounded when you and I were talking, though, that so many companies today have people problems. But I have a hunch you don't. And I have a hunch there's some core values that are working well for you. Can you share with our listeners about how you attract and retain? Is it the metaphor of family? What do you find works particularly well? Because I do think that's a much needed wisdom to share with folks who aren't quite sure how to do that anymore. Dylan Rexing: You know, I would say that we're not perfect, and I don't think really anyone is. We've grown over the years. I mean, if you look back in the history books of our business in 2010, we had zero employees and 13 years later we have 90. And so we've obviously had some struggles along the way. We're still learning. I tell folks, when we onboard, we've hired so many people as of late that I don't know their faces. I don't know their names, I don't know what their hobbies are or what makes them tick. And so we started having a Friday, a monthly breakfast where we bring in bagels and sit down and just talk about who they are and why they're here and what their goals are and those kinds of things. And I just found it important to sort of personalize each person; it's kind of embarrassing when someone works for us and I don't know who they are. And so I made it a purpose to sit down with them and just take an hour out of the month and just get to know them. But when I end those meetings, I tell folks all the time that, you know, we're not perfect. My door's open. Come see me. If we do something that we shouldn't have done, or we said it in a way that we shouldn't have, come talk to us because we don't know if you don't tell us. And so I would say that culture is very important in a business. I didn't even know what the word culture meant probably 4 or 5 years ago. I didn't really understand it. I thought you just went to work and you busted your butt until you got the job done. And again, I didn't really understand it. And we hired a couple of people that really brought culture to our organization. And so I would say, you know, as far as attracting and retaining talent, we're better than the average company. We still have room to go. One of the things Vistage will teach you, and I've only been in Vistage a little over almost two years, is if you're not willing to always learn and get better, you're just going to get passed by. And so when people say, Well, how do you know how you are doing? And in the employee area, I always tell folks, I think we do a fabulous job. But, you know, there's always that room to go a step higher. Andi Simon: Particularly since the folks you're hiring are all coming from an age at a different time. They've had different experiences, you know, and the Google search for culture and culture change is has been going up like this for a couple of years now, something we specialize in because people don't know, as you're saying, what is it? And if you have a toxic one, you don't even know why. And if you have a good one, you can't figure out how to keep it going. And it's the thing that makes humans so special. We must have meaning, and as you're talking, it's important to get your folks to understand that they matter in the larger scheme of your business, that they aren't just a cog in the wheel, that their feelings matter and and they're changing and you want them to help build a better business. And it's interesting because I have a hunch your clients look upon them as assets, as real value providers, not just tactical and practical people. I mean, is there kind of a blend of your culture into your clients? Dylan Rexing: Yeah. I mean, I would say we have customers, we have employees on site at customers' facilities. We have some that work on their site. Not only are they there occasionally to do a pick up or a drop, but we have sites where our employees sit at a desk next to our customer, which is a little odd at times. And so we have to sort of manage that. Our culture and their culture have to kind of mix and we have to make sure that our employees are in a good space. But, I would say it's important to have employees that want to work for you. And that you treat your employees well. One of the small little tricks that I've taken from my time and in some books I've read, is that I write an anniversary card for every one of our employees every time they hit an anniversary date. I just write a little thank you that says, I really appreciate your contributions to our team and look forward to working with you in the future. It's really short and sweet, but I think we've sort of lost touch as a country or a globe, that everything is social media driven and everything's on our phone. And so our folks appreciate me taking the time to just literally get out a pen and write down a nice little note. And we also do that for customers. So we'll send handwritten notes to customers thanking them for their time listening to us about X, Y or Z. Maybe it's the curious mind in me, but I just sometimes think those little things are what matter. Andi Simon: Oh, I want to say, sometimes I think it is. I was on a plane coming back from Houston, Houston or Lexington. Unfortunately, I'm on a plane every week, and this flight attendant wrote me a personal note thanking me for being Executive Platinum on American Airlines, and how much she appreciated my loyalty and service. You know, often I get things from American to thank me but this is the second time I've gotten a handwritten note and I took a picture of it. And I just think it's a nice touch that makes it seem like you're not just a cog in this thing, that maybe it matters. And it mattered to this particular flight attendant. And she was very gracious about it. She said, I just want you to know how important this is. And I went, Well, I don't know who trained you, but you got a heart that's bigger and sometimes the flights are good and they work, and sometimes they don't. And after a while you just take whatever you get, right? But it was very touching. So yours has a ripple effect because I have a hunch your folks then say thank you to their folks and their clients say, Isn't this a nice thing? And all of a sudden the community has an appreciation for each other, bigger than the task at hand, am I right? Dylan Rexing: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I think what we try to do is, and it's changed over time, but we want to make our community and our world a better place than when we took it over. Right? And so the little things about saying thank you and writing little notes to your employees and customers, I hope that puts a smile on our people's faces. And I hope when we send it to vendors and customers that it makes them feel better. And it's just trying to make the place we live in a little better. Ultimately, I don't know the exact statistics, but we spend more time with our colleagues at work than we spend at home with our family. If you don't love or enjoy where you work, you need to make a change, right? Andi Simon: Well, you can tell the folks how to reach you if they're curious and how to join you. I am curious, though, when we were talking about the future and the things that you're already seeing as ways to improve, even a very good model that you've got. And I do think that the times are changing fast, and sometimes there's a little idea that comes and adds great value. Can you share something about the work that you're doing now? Dylan Rexing: So we've got a new program with one of our companies, PFLAG, that we've been working on bringing to light. It started in July. Let me take a step back. The biggest fear I have as a business owner is that I'm the taxi cab that gets replaced by Uber, a great metaphor, or I'm a Blockbuster that gets replaced by Netflix. That's my biggest fear is that we started and we put all this tremendous effort and thought into our industry or in our several businesses, and that's just my biggest fear that someone comes in and just replaces us like that. And so I'm always trying to think of different ways to differentiate ourselves. And so we've got a new program for our logistics business that's really unique. It's probably the only one in the country. And we ultimately give our customers more control and transparency over their supply chain and where their product is and how much it costs and those kinds of things. So it's kind of cheesy to say, but we've become a partner of our customer, not really just a vendor. We've become partners. So we're integrated into their system. And like I said, we have employees that sit next to their employees in their building. And so we've just become an important piece of their business. And just the reason it came up is, again, I just was extremely concerned that we were going to be the taxicab. And I just don't want to do that. Andi Simon: But your metaphor, your aha, is that it's happened, to Airbnb and Blockbuster could have bought Netflix, but didn't think that was anything. Let's not forget, there was a Sears catalog before an Amazon ever existed. And now no more Sears and lots of Amazon. And you wonder who's going to tackle that one. But to your point, unless you try and you don't really know what's of value to your partners, I love the idea they're collaborators with you. Together you both rise, and without those customers partnering, you can't grow either. I mean, you can't have empty  cold storage. It doesn't do much good. And we can't because you're delivering the food to us in a way that's fast and easy and really affordable. More often than not, we believe it's getting to be challenging. You know, I'm enjoying our conversation. The thing that I really do think is that there are some lessons that you've learned that you want our listeners to hear: one, two or three of them that really impacted you because you are different than when you started to do this transformation and things are working, I have a hunch, better than you might have anticipated, but we can't necessarily know the future. We just can plan for it. Some lessons you've learned that you want to share. Dylan Rexing: You know, I'm going to hit the same topic again. But I think it's extremely important. I think for someone that's trying to start a business, or maybe they've already started one and they're kind of in a growth phase or anything in between, I think you need to walk in every day and think about how you're going to replace yourself. Because if you don't walk in your office every day or your building or wherever you work every day and think about how am I going to get replaced, someone's going to replace you. Maybe it's not tomorrow. Maybe it's five years from now. But ultimately that's the world that we live in. It's moving much faster today than it ever has. So I think that's one important piece that I'd like to share. The other piece I like to share is to listen to all the stakeholders in your area. So listen to your employees, listen to your vendors, listen to your customers. You learn more from that than you're going to learn anywhere else. There's my neighbor who ran a $1 billion manufacturing plant down the street from us. And he said, What I would do is, I'd have this scheduled time every Wednesday, I think it was where I'd walk the plant floor. It was a manufacturing business, a big one in our area. And every week he made a point, for a couple hours, to walk around and just walk the plant floor and talk to his people. A lot of folks in today's world, especially in my age group, I like to pick on my age group, I'm a little younger and we do some things better, but we also struggle in some areas, and people in my age group want to manage behind a desk or behind a spreadsheet or something of that nature. And I think it's just important to kind of get out there and get in front of the stakeholders of your business. Andi Simon: Well, you know, as an anthropologist, I can tell you that you really don't know what you don't know. And you can ask people and they'll tell you a story about what they think it is you want to hear. But that gentleman who went out to look and see is how we actually learn. And unless you're in the trucks or in the cold storage route with your own customers, you're imagining what it is they're struggling with and where you could add value innovatively. My husband was a serial entrepreneur in his last business. He spent a whole lot of time just listening, trying to hear what people were challenged by and not assuming we knew because we really don't know. We think we know, but we are imagining what it is like there. And so that point is a really powerful one. You know, this has been fun. Do you have your folks also coming back with things they've heard from customers that feed into an innovation, you know, culture in some fashion? My last question and then we'll do a wrap up because I do think they hear more than we will ever hear. Dylan Rexing: So when we were at Vistage in Indy together, you had spoken about going to your customer service team to listen. Our business isn't necessarily set up that way. And so it's still in the back of my brain as to how to get ideas from not just myself talking to folks, but to get ideas from other folks in our organization. So stay tuned on that. It's one piece that I sort of wrote down as a takeaway, and an important one for sure. I think what Vistage says is, It's a day to work on your business, not in your business. That's kind of their metaphor. I think my last piece of advice would be: sometimes we get really busy in the day to day of whatever fire is out there. Take a step back and sort of look at your business from a high level. And I think you'll be very happy that you did so well. Andi Simon: And I love the idea of taking a Wednesday and being an observer, and give it enough frequency so that you can really begin to see. And offline, you and I can talk about some ideas about how to get your talent out there to begin to feed things back in because there's always gaps for pain points that they hear. My favorite story is someone who said to a Vistage member,  what “What if's” could you have benefited from? And he said, We ignored all those. That wasn't what we sold him, and then we asked where all the opportunities were. So he created the “what if” sales process. Don't sell what we sell, listen to what they need. And I went, Oh, that's not hard. And he said, But I didn't hear a word that customer was saying, and that's where all my opportunities were. So it's pretty cool stuff. Where can they reach you if they'd like to get ahold of you? Dylan Rexing: The best way is the Contact Us page on our website. My office number's on there. My email address is on there. I'm happy to talk to anybody at any time and see if there's a way I can improve your business. Andi Simon: Good. I am reluctant to share on the recordings because they're there for a long time and sometimes we don't want them there for a long time. But I thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure today. So this is fun. I have to tell Steve McFarland this was just a treat and he should send me some more of his folks. They're really remarkable people. It was wonderful. For those of you who don't know about Vistage, I'll put a plug in. I think I've done 503 or 504 Vistage talks, mostly on: change matters, how to find new markets Blue Ocean Strategy-style or culture change or innovation. But Vistage is an organization of CEOs and key leaders from companies across the world now, and it brings them together for them to listen and grow and learn. In my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, six of the eight stories in there are Vistage members. And it's a great way to understand how Vistage folks begin to open their minds to possibilities, and it gives us great opportunities to help them see things through a fresh lens, which is my job. For those of you who came today, as always, thank you for joining us. It's so much fun to do podcasting. It's a way of sharing people and ideas and you don't need to listen to me alone. This was a marvelous time to share and I'm just glad we're growing together. I feel like a partner. Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman, is behind me here, and for those of you who may have bought it, I'm getting great reviews on Amazon. If you haven't bought it yet, Amazon, Barnes and Noble and local booksellers have it, and we are on the book tour. If you want to hear us speak about how Women Mean Business, I'd be delighted to share with you. There are 102 women in it. They're all leaders in their field who share their five wisdoms, and help others do better together. And that's what we're all about. So it's been fun. Thank you for coming to On the Brink. My job is to help you get off the brink. And, so thank you Dylan, it's been a pleasure. Have a great day. Bye bye now.

Learn how to be your own boss and the power of saying no   Those of you who are wondering whether it's time for you to leave that corporate life and start your own business, you're going to love my guests today, Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoit Nadeau. They're freelance writers and translators and the authors of the new book Going Solo: Everything You Need to Start Your Business and Succeed as Your Own Boss. Many aspiring entrepreneurs have plenty of skill and passion but don't have a sense of how to run a business, which makes their advice so valuable. Are you an entrepreneur or solopreneur? You really should listen in. Watch and listen to our conversation here According to Julie and Jean-Benoit, a good business plan is basically six questions: 1. What do you want to do? 2. Why do you want to do it? 3. What's the market? 4. What price do you want to offer? 5. What will you bring to people? 6. What's the purpose, the “what for”? To connect with them, visit their LinkedIn page or their website. Want to learn more about what makes successful entrepreneurs successful? Here's a start: Blog: 10 Qualities To Drive Your Success As A Female Entrepreneur Blog: The 5 Things You Need To Know To Successfully Scale Your Business Podcast: Marsha Friedman—How A Woman Entrepreneur Took A Little Idea And Turned It Into A Big Business Podcast: Sharon Cully—Great Ideas to Help Entrepreneurs Gain Time and Success Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman  Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And remember, my job is to get you off the brink. So I want to bring to you people who are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways. You know, and this is always my starting speech, because what I want my audience, whether you're watching or you're listening, is to learn something new. And the best way to do that is to see it and feel it and begin to get the stories from someone else who has done it and say, Oh, I can do that too. So today I have a wonderful couple here to share with you their story and a new book. Let me tell you about them. Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoit Nadeau are the authors of Going Solo: Everything You Need to Start Your Business and Succeed as Your Own Boss. So those of you who are out there wondering whether or not it's time for you to leave that corporate life and start your own business, or you're already starting the business and want to know how to succeed at business, or you're really thinking about, I don't know, going back into business, it's a good time to listen in and think about your own purpose and passion and where you could really have a great trip. They are prize-winning authors and journalists. The husband and wife pair have been running a freelance writing business for over three decades. Look at the books behind them. I just love books and so many folks have no books. And I'm a book author and I love books. They've spoken across Canada, the US, Europe and Japan. Their work has appeared in The New York Times, USA Today, The International Herald Tribune, France's L'Express, and more. They've published 15 books, written over a thousand articles, won more than 30 journalism and literary awards. They're avid travelers, they've lived in Paris, which I love, where John Boehner was a fellow of the Washington-based Institute for Current World Affairs. They've been to Toronto and Phoenix, where Julie was a Fulbright Scholar at Arizona State University. They're trilingual in English, French and Spanish, and they are based in Montreal, where they live with their twin daughters. I've told you enough. It's enough for you to see that I got somebody really cool here for you today, and they're going to help you. Just like I want to see things through a fresh lens. Thank you, Jean-Benoit and Julie, thanks for joining me. Jean-Benoit Nadeau: Thank you. Thank you very much for having us. Andi Simon: Now Jean-Benoit has told me I can call him JB. Tell us about your own journey. It's one thing to read a bio, it's another thing to begin to think through, How did they get here? Why this book at this time? You certainly have written lots. Jean-Benoit, would you like to start about your journey? Jean-Benoit Nadeau: Okay. I began as a writer in 1987. As a journalist. I'd done some theater before that. I'd studied engineering, decided in the end that I wanted to earn a living writing, and began as a writer. And since I was not that employable because I had no experience, I started freelancing, which was my destiny as a creator. Anyway, I realized later that a couple of things went well. I got my degree in political science, and was freelancing, meanwhile, and in 1993 things were going well and a magazine in Montreal offered me a job. I took the job and I was employed 29 days and I quit. That's when I became self-employed by choice. My father is an engineer. He had his own consultancy, which became quite large eventually, but he was an entrepreneur, and he's the first person who told me, because I was telling him, I have no job, What am I? Oh, he said, you're self-employed. Oh really? He said, Yes. I know what it was. Andi Simon: Bravo to your father. Jean-Benoit Nadeau: And then we discussed frequently until he became sick at the beginning of the middle of the year 2005. He was a good mentor. He mentored us a lot. And we realized quite early that a lot of the problems we were going through were the same that he was going through as an engineer. Aside from writing, you know, how do you negotiate? How do you manage without losing time? How do you finance your business and all these things? And I gave seminars first for journalists because I had a certain amount of success as a writer. So I was giving seminars to journalists. And then in 1997, I published a book which is the original version of the book in French for the Quebec market. And I started giving speeches in Chambers of Commerce and associate trade associations and realized that I was right on the advice that we had developed, because I was already partnered with Julie. So the advice that we were developing applied to everybody who wants to be creative in their work, really. And then we never had good success. We sold like 30,000 copies of the book in the tiny Quebec market and in French. And Julie said at one point, That book is absolutely translatable. So we got the rights back from my publisher and she translated it, and here we are. Julie Barlow: So I had been thinking for years and years of translating it, but just got buried under other projects. My writing career began much like jazz. I stumbled into it, began writing music, music reviews when I was in university. And I lost my confidence. I didn't come from a background with a father who was an entrepreneur. I didn't come from a business background at all. I didn't even know you could really make a living as a writer. Andi Simon: Aha. Julie Barlow: And that's not unusual in our field, you know, for people to have a skill and develop it but not have any sense of how to run a business. So I finished my education, finished my master's degree, and then just started out. And, nevertheless, even with that help that we had, there's a number of skills you have to really develop in order to make your passion into a business. Basically, I felt very fortunate to have your dad. And of course, we developed our own, our own by trial and error. And over the decades we developed our skills and our tips, and I was very happy to translate the book. We have two editions of it: one for the United States and one for Canada. And it's just great to share with others, not just creative people, but people who want to live their passion. They want to do what they want to do. They want to leave a job, start out fresh, out of school or whatever. There's just some basic things that you need to understand to make it work so that you don't get drowned in frustrations. Andi Simon: You know, it's interesting while I'm listening to you. So I'm in business 22 years now, and I launched my business after being in corporate as an executive in two banks and as an executive in two hospitals. And prior to that, I was an anthropology professor. I got my tenure and I was a visiting professor teaching entrepreneurship. And I was on a journey because I knew I was an anthropologist. I like to apply it among businesses that are going through change because people hate change. And I sort of helped them see, feel and think in new ways. But when I launched it after 911, my PR firm said to me, Oh, Andi, you're a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. And I went, Bingo. And so in a sense, he defined my passion, my purpose, the why. Then the question was, how? And I did what I used to do anyway, which was start to have lunch with people, you know, never eat alone. We started to network and network and network. And next thing you know, I had a half a dozen clients and I went, Oh, this is fun. This is free. And I'm having a great time being me. And I do think that part of the passion and purpose is knowing who you are, not just what you do, but it's sort of my story. I want to go back to yours. When you began to help people through the book, let's talk about a process, a way of thinking. Because remember, we live the story in our mind. And so now the question is, typically the people who are going to read this book, what kind of story, what are they trying to do? Give them the wisdom and the lessons learned that you have. So the book complements it in some fashion. Who would like to start it? Jean-Benoit Nadeau: I think that a very important moment in the process of thinking of ourselves as entrepreneurial was the realization that it's so hard to change. And as an anthropologist, you'll understand. Historically, people used to be all self-employed. And the people who were employed were at the bottom of the scale. They didn't own their means of production, and they were at the bottom of the scale. And around the 19th century, that scale shifted. The people who were employed moved up socially, and it became a goal of education to have a job. We all went to study in order to have a job. We don't say to people, Study well, you're going to have your own enterprise. We never say that to kids. We tell them to study well, you'll have a job. So then I realized I will never have a job. What am I going to do? Well, I'm going to have work. Yep. So that's what self-employed is. You don't have a job, but you have work and you don't have a boss. You have a client who is your equal because you are your own boss and you don't have a salary. You have income which you build. But you see, it took me about 4 or 5 years even to send a bill to my clients because I thought it was pretentious. I'm sorry, I was an artist. I was a writer. I came from the theater. So at one point they would look at their books and say, Oh, we haven't paid this guy, so let's send him a check. That's how I was paid. So of course, that was the big moment of understanding that that's too much work. I don't have a job. Andi Simon: So, you know, Julie, I'm going to let you pop in, but I want to just set the context because I've been coaching some young women in their 20s, some are graduating from college, some have graduated and have had a couple of jobs. But I'm not sure that they know who they are, what they're doing, or why they're doing it. But I will tell you that the education in college makes them seem as if they're fully competent at something. They just don't know what that something is or where to find a company that wants their something. And I'm disturbed at the disconnect between their job, work, passion, purpose. Julie, your turn please. I didn't want to cut you off, but I wanted to set the stage. Julie Barlow: One of the big places where you see this problem of flipping from feeling like somebody's in control of what you produce and what you do, comes in negotiating, which is something we talk a lot about with writers who tend to think there's a system that they fit into and there's a certain amount that they will get paid. And they tend not to think that they're in the driver's seat. And so they get exploited. And one of the big problems is that people who, and you see this sometimes when people who leave a job to start working freelance, they just think of their clients as their bosses. And they even use that term. They say well, the boss says, the bosses, and they don't start from a position of power, which is that they can sell or not sell, and sometimes it's just worth walking away. I mean, I have this discussion with fellow writers a lot. There are clients who are just not good clients, and they're hurting you and they're not paying you fairly and they're wasting your time. You could be using your means and whatever it is you sell or produce to make money from somebody who appreciates it, you know? So one of the big things is avoiding bad clients and learning to say no. So we have a little section in the book of 16 Ways to Say No. It's very popular with people. You have to learn when to say no and how to walk away from things. And sometimes saying no is what really radically, suddenly improves your condition. I mean, you need to be able to do that. It's tough for people. Andi Simon: Well, it's interesting because I remember my first client who I said, “I'm really not good for you and you're not good for me. So I think you should find somebody else for your sake.” And I remember that feeling of freeing myself, but allowing them to be free of me as well, because we were simply not going to make it. And it was for your sake. And I'm sure that because it was a perspective that it wasn't my problem but for your benefit, it's time to go. But I've learned that no is a good word. Julie Barlow: Yes, it is a good word. And it can even bring a bigger yes at the end of the day from somebody else. I recently, last year, said no to a really, really what could have been a very lucrative writing contract with somebody that I just knew we were not a good fit. You know, you have to, and we talk about this as well in the book, you have to explore fairly carefully with your client. Make sure they understand what they're getting, make sure they understand what you're giving them. Yes, you're on the same terms. Things have to be clear from the beginning or you have problems down the line. And I just could not get through to them. We just could not see eye to eye on the thing. But, we left on good terms and I said, I'm sorry, I'm just not going to do this anymore. The word about what I had done with them traveled back to his literary agent which came back to me in the form of another book contract. So I absolutely understood what I did. But, you know, these are the lessons that you learn as a business person, clients' expectations. And again, it's the boss-client mentality. You have to take the time to make sure that you understand their expectations and that they understand what they're getting or you just end up with problems with them. Jean-Benoit Nadeau: People make a lot of fuss about the business plan. We've got questions about that. And I say, yeah, I know, but we say, the business plan is basically five questions. What do you want to do? Why do you want to do it? What's the market? What price do you want to offer? What will you bring to people? That's just the basics. If you need financing or an associate, you may need to write almost a book business plan, a book-size business plan. But a good business plan can fit on 2 or 3 pages. But there's a sixth question, which I forgot, that I didn't mention, which I think is the most important: What for, the purpose? But your goal, your personal goal, where do you want to go with that? Do you want to teach social dancing? A lot of people want to turn their passion into a business, and that's good. That's often why people go with you. Self-Employment. Well, you're not going to once things start running and that can come pretty quickly. You'll go somewhere if you know where you want to go, and you will not even decide who your clients are. And if you want to start teaching for the purpose of creating a franchise of social dancing, or create a shoe for social dancing, you are not going to choose your clients in the same way. Your venues, the place where you're going to showcase them, etcetera. And it's the same with a writer. You are not going to do all the thousands of choices you have to do in your daily business. If you want to be a publisher or have an agency, or want to be an editor in chief, or move into book writing or film, these are all personal choices. There's nobody who's going to tell you which is right, but it's very important, it orients you. Andi Simon: But I also think, I can't tell you how many folks come in by referral. Sometimes they find us on the internet and they are trying to do what they did in the corporate world in an independent freelance business fashion, but they don't really understand that things are different. You know, they did this there and therefore I'm going to do this now. I said, But there you had the brand of the big company and you had a network and so forth. Why should somebody hire you now? And how are you going to actually build a revenue stream, a client base, have a business with it, as opposed to being an employed person who used to do something. This means the story changes, but they aren't thinking about how to do it actually and they have no idea. Very often your book is very valuable about how I think about myself now? Because when I said I'm a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change, to be honest with you, I knew people had to change, they didn't care how I did it, and I admitted I picked that one up. I knew that the whole sales process was about, you know, where are your gaps? Where's your pain point? How can I help? How I did it, they didn't care. But it's a very important piece. They really didn't know what an anthropologist would do, but it was interesting to watch the transformation. But many times they come and don't know how to turn an idea, an observation, into a business innovation. So your book comes at a very timely moment. When they get going, do you help them create scalability? A word I use often because, you know, there are 13 million women-owned businesses in the US. 10 million of them don't make solopreneurs. 5 million of those don't make more than $10,000 a year. And they're more like side hustles, which is fine. But there are a whole lot of solopreneurs, and I worry about the lack of scalability. Not being able to underwrite it with the right capital. Don't know how to use a bank to finance it. Don't use their credit cards with family and friends. I mean, there's a whole huge market of folks who need to make an income in a better way, but need to think differently about what they're doing and not simply celebrate the fact that they're not inside a company, which is often what they say. “I didn't like being there, so I'm doing this.” I say, “But you're not in business. You're just trying.” So, thoughts? Julie Barlow: So one of the ideas that we speak of is that between somebody making $25,000 a year as a solopreneur and somebody making $250,000 a year, the thing you have to understand is that you don't have to work ten times more. You make your choices in the function of things. In our case, writing that feeds other ways of making money. So for instance, we wrote a book about the French language and we turned that into speaking gigs on the French language, articles on the French language, a film script on the French language, a radio show on the French language. I mean, the book just keeps on giving us content that we use for other things. And we're not being paid to sit and produce new content every day. That's what we would do if we had a job, perhaps as a script writer at a company. But we are using our content to make money for us. The best way to be a writer is to sit and wait for the royalty checks to come to the door. You know, of course we have to write, but all of the choices that we make, we make sure that they are not dead end choices because they are choices that are going to feed that or feed other books or enable us to produce books using a gig, doing something that will feed us with content for something else. I mean, that's how we go from thinking like an employee to thinking like a business person. Jean-Benoit Nadeau: I recently read a biography of Charles Dickens and was fascinated that he was one of the first authors in history to do what he called “work the copyright,” which meant that earning a living was not just about writing, it was to use his intellectual property to work for him, and for a lot less work. And as writers, we have the benefit of having intellectual property created the minute we finish something. The costly part of the intellectual property is developing it into research. But if you choose your ideas very well for the purpose of reusing them, then things become a lot easier. That's just in the production side of it. But if you negotiate well, you can actually improve your productivity without raising your rate just because you understand better what the client wants or because you negotiate better the ownership of what you produce for them, because you keep that ownership for yourself or because you get better terms. That's just at the negotiating level. You can keep collecting. If you bill quickly, you collect quickly, and then you have less money on your credit card. There's all sorts of things like this at all levels of what it is to run a business that are productive. Andi Simon: And what you're saying though, is a mindset. And I do think that mindset isn't the narrow: I'm a freelance writer. It's the broad: I'm in business to take ideas and in multiple channels begin to bring them to market because my purpose is to share French and I need to do it on all the different channels. And I need to do that in multiple different ways. And the content keeps repurposing itself. I mean, people say to me, Did you sell a lot of books? I said, I brought in a lot of clients. I mean, you can bring in good clients. I was in Mexico three times off a book that someone found in a Hudson News in an airport, and got to give programs to CEOs down there three years in a row. Before the pandemic, I just loved the multiplier of the book. And I just had a podcast earlier today of a guy who I gave the On the Brink book to. He took it on his vacation, came back and was quoting it for me. I mean, you can't ask for much more than that. I love how what we do is designed not to be an end, but a beginning.  And I do think it opens the door. And the idea is, how many different doors can it open and how do we get to where we're really taking the message and helping spread it. Julie Barlow: To do that you kind of have to be agile. I mean, the word is a little overused, but you do. You need to be watching what's going on. You know, in the book, we encourage people who are starting out to be curious to contact their competitors, to sit down with people in their business and ask questions and figure things out. People can be very shy and a little bit locked into their own little universe. You can stay in front of your screen all the time, but it's important to get out and understand what's going on. And people are helpful. And they're happy to have somebody, I'm happy for young writers to approach me and to ask for me to sit down and explain things to them. When I don't have time to do a contract. I'd love to be able to keep my client happy by sending them somebody else who can. And you know, that happens fairly frequently. And it's sort of a win-win for everybody. But, you know, communication and being open to that and watching the industry change is really important. One of our early methods was to resell articles because we write in both languages and we would resell them in different markets. And that changed when the internet came. And we started writing before the internet when that all changed. And then it was very hard to keep our copyright over certain things and resell things. But we found new ways to do that. And one of them is translating and we don't necessarily get paid for our copyright, but we need to translate it. So we get paid for that. We're always looking to see where the soft spots are and how things are changing. And you always have to kind of be aware of what's going on and not get stuck in a way of doing things. And that, again, is something very particular to being sort of an entrepreneur, entrepreneurial state of mind, as opposed to thinking like an employee and doing what you're asked to do. Andi Simon: You're segueing into a topic that I always like to include, though, and you've been through many years of watching many different transitions and transformations, and often you pick up. I often talk about the future is here, we just haven't quite distributed it widely. But you pick up little signs, and the little signs are the tip of the iceberg of where things are going. Are there some signs that you're already beginning to watch happen and you're saying, there's something coming? I'm not quite sure what, but I'm really interested to see where and who, and I'm going to poke further, and anything you can share, because I do think the times are changing. Jean-Benoit Nadeau: Well, in Canada we have this problem right now. The Canadian government wants to control better. Well, wants to ensure that big companies like Facebook and Google share their publicity market with traditional media, and they created a law, a Facebook Australia-style law. And Facebook reacted by blocking all Canadian content on Facebook. And Google is threatening that. So that is raising a lot of questions on the future of writing as a writer in Canada. It's going to be a rocky year next year, I would say. Julie Barlow: So artificial intelligence is a big one. Yeah, AI is affecting us. Again, maybe back to what Jean-Benoit said about purpose. We as sort of high-end writers are right now kind of safe from AI. It can't really do what we're doing. So we're enjoying the benefits of it right now, which is transcribing automatic tools for transcribing interviews and translation tools that give us decent first drafts of translations and various different things, but all the writing community is a little on edge about what is going to do, because it's getting better at generative artificial intelligence. We can't afford to have our head in the sand. Andi Simon: I fell in love with AI. I say that gently because I use it in different kinds of ways. It writes great poems for me. And if I want to give a granddaughter a poem about a situation, I give it three facts and outcomes a great poem. And I went, I can't write that, but boy, that is a great poem, and I don't even know who I would ask to write it. But it is interesting to watch what we begin to use it for. I had a great big project and I said, Tell me, what are your thoughts, AI, about this project I'm working on? And it freshened up my thinking, not that I was necessarily going to use it, but as a solopreneur, it's often difficult to find open colleagues with conversations that can make intelligent insights into things you're thinking about. And so I'm finding all kinds of ways to make it my friend. And I say that because it's how you feel about it as opposed to being angry at it. Jean-Benoit Nadeau: You know, we use artificial intelligence a fair amount. We have an excellent character here called Antidote. It's pure artificial intelligence. And all the intelligence software that is there doesn't make a very good translation, but makes a good first draft. In fact, in Canada, where we translate a fair amount because we have two official languages, the number of people who are employed as translators has increased by 18% in the last seven years, when the labor force has increased by six. So it reduced the cost of entry to a lot of people who would not translate. And then they give it to a machine. They come out and they say, someone says, that's not very good, but let's hire someone who finishes the translation. Andi Simon: What is Grammarly? I mean, this whole book, I put every one of them through it. We have 102 women and I gave everyone to Grammarly and they made the corrections and I sent it back and they approved it. And man, it was efficient. And there were limits to how much creativity was going to go into it. But it got me comfortable that they would sound professional and it was even far better than the proofreader of the publisher. And so it was fun to test. I just needed a third third party. Jean-Benoit Nadeau: But one of the things about artificial intelligence is that it's a misnomer. It's an algorithm that processes a lot of information. And one of the problems for journalists, anyway, one of the issues with our AI is that, for example, ChatGPT is essentially a sociopath. It doesn't tell you it doesn't know what it doesn't know. It makes up things and it doesn't give you the source, which is contrary to any kind of ethics in journalism. And, I don't think it threatens journalism. It will be a tool like glasses or even the word processor. Andi Simon: You know, I'm in the schools, my daughter is a teacher. And she said back to me, I had to do a lesson plan for a student in special ed. So I went into ChatGPT and it came back and it was almost as good as I would have done. And in a minute I went, yeah, now use your time to teach the child and not write the lesson plan. You know, it's a perfectly good way to get going. Nothing is perfect, and even our own lesson plans may not be perfect. We think they're better than AI. But I'm enjoying the transition to the next stage of data and insights coming from intelligent stuff in different ways. So it'll be fun if we stay and make it happy, and then be wise and go back and check and make sure it's correct. But even this stuff on Google, I'm never quite sure it's correct either. You have to be knowledgeable enough to know. This has been such fun. I'm so glad that you're on our podcast today, and if folks would like to buy the book, where could they buy it? Julie Barlow: Amazon.com, Amazon.ca in Canada, Barnes and Noble. It should be available in any bookstore. Jean-Benoit Nadeau: It's widely distributed. Just make sure if you ever go, it probably won't happen, but the Canadian edition has a little maple leaf at the top. If it doesn't have that little maple leaf, it's an American edition. Andi Simon: The things that look great. Thank you so much. So it's going solo and if you want to go solo, you've been with us today listening to Julie Barlow and Jean-Benoit Nadeau. I do, as we are trying to really help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can decide, how am I going to spend the next stage of my career doing a job, or do I want really interesting work? Am I going to be a creator of a whole new market space, or am I going to copy someone else and be another? And I do think it's a time for really rethinking who you are and where you're going and how to do it. So I want to thank you for coming. Thank you for coming today and speaking to our audience. As you know, our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, just came out and it is doing gangbusters. And it too is on all the booksellers, Barnes and Noble and Amazon. It's the stories of 102 women, and they are really interesting stories because the women have five wisdoms they want to share with you, and each of them has a different background, history, and their own journey. And it's really quite fascinating. The reviews are: "I wasn't sure what I was going to find, but I went through the whole book and each of the women inspired me. So when you gave the book to me, man, this is a great book!" Who knew? And I said, I know. The whole idea is to share their wisdom with you so you can be inspired, you can aspire to greatness. You can begin to think about how other women have done it. One of my favorite quotes in there is, “Don't believe everything you're thinking.” And I said, I like that. We preach, turn a page and change your life. I really think women in business are here to help you do just that. So on that note, I want to thank everyone for coming. Keep sending me your ideas on who we should have on, share the podcast and I wish you well. Bye bye now.   WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how to create a workplace where people love to work I first had the pleasure of interviewing Konstantinos (Kon) Apostolopoulos for this podcast in July 2020 as the pandemic was raging around the world. He and Dr. Elia Gourgouris had just co-authored the book, 7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis: A Practical Guide to Emotionally Dealing with Pandemics & Other Disasters. Now Kon has written another book due out next year, called Engagement Blueprint: Building a Culture of Commitment and Performance. And what is so fascinating about his new book is that it focuses on business culture change and employee engagement as the keys to business success. Kon and I are both culture change experts and so as you can imagine, I'm excited to learn what he has to tell us today, as I think you will be too.  Watch and listen to our conversation here People seek out environments where they feel valued and their needs are being met. Some keypoints from today's discussion: An engaged workforce looks for things that need to get done because they feel appreciated and value helping the company move forward. They're connected and understand clearly what the goals are, and they're looking for opportunities to support their teammates in meaningful ways and make contributions that will make a difference for the organization and for themselves. They look at their daily activities as opportunities to learn, to grow, to capitalize on that, to invest in themselves. When that happens, work becomes learning, work becomes play, work becomes exciting. That's the kind of place where engagement really thrives. People want something more than just financial success. They want, and need, to be valued and appreciated in what they do. We all do. How to reach Kon You can connect with Kon on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and his website Fresh Biz Solutions, or email him at kon@freshbizsolutions.com. Also, take the online version of Kon's self-assessment questionnaire to learn what your organization can do differently to really soar. Want to learn more about  Podcast: Richard Sheridan—Joy in the Workplace Podcast: Maria Colacurcio—Stop The Revolving Door. Help Your Employees Embrace A Diverse And Equitable Workplace. Blog: Change Is All Around Us But It's Terrifying. So How Do I Make Change My Friend? Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights My third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman  Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi and welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I'm Andi Simon. And as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. And I love to do it by bringing you interesting people who are going to help you do something important. You're going to see things through a fresh lens. You're going to feel things differently. And remember, we decide with how we feel and then you're going to think about it. Because if you can see it and feel it, then your brain says, Oh, that's what we're talking about. And today, this is really a great opportunity, particularly coming out of the pandemic, still not being sure or certain about work and life and hybrid and all kinds of things. It's time for us to think about that organization we want to build. So today, somebody whom I interviewed earlier for this podcast, in July 2020, is coming back because he's writing a new book, a solo book: Kon Apostolopoulos, who is a really wonderful gentleman who works with organizations to help them, like I do, change. Let me read you a little bit about his background. He's founder and CEO of Fresh Biz Solutions, Fresh Like That, and Human Capital Management Consultancy, which provides performance improvement and training solutions to help organizations develop their people, improve business results, and reap the benefits of a comprehensive talent management strategy. During the pandemic, he and Dr. Elia Gourgouris published a book called 7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis: A Practical Guide to Emotionally Dealing with Pandemics & Other Disasters. That was terrific and very timely. He's a regular contributor to Thrive Global and Achievers Engagement. I think what you're going to love today is that he has had time to develop a new book on employee engagement. He calls it Engagement Blueprint: Building a Culture of Contribution and Performance. Is that the title? Did I get it almost right? Kon Apostolopoulos: Almost right. Almost right. Commitment and Performance. Both of those are things we're going to talk about today. And hopefully I put down a half a word and then I had a figure. The other half was on. So good thing we can laugh together. Andi Simon: What I think for our listeners and our viewers is so important is that Kon brings both research and experience and expertise to this engagement question. And I love when he talks about it because you're going to begin to think about that blueprint that you need, which lays out a pathway to change what's maybe a little chaotic today into something where employees believe in the place and really want to participate and belong. Kon, thank you so much for joining us. Kon Apostolopoulos: It's such a pleasure to be with you again, Andi. Thank you for having me. Andi Simon: Our problem is going to be to only stay within a half hour or so because we love to talk. There's nothing better than getting together with people who share your passion and your purpose. I want you to talk a little bit  about your background so they understand who's Kon. And then we'll talk about the origin myth of this new book, which is so important. Please share with them. Who is Kon? Kon Apostolopoulos: Thank you. It's a pleasure. Kon is right now a 30 year veteran of the Adult Learning Performance Improvement Change Leadership space. I essentially work with people. The company I founded about a dozen years ago, Fresh Biz Solutions, is focused on helping organizations, the kind of organizations that you and I know, Andi, that spend a lot of time and money building, developing very intricate business plans. Where I come in and help is that I ensure that they have the right people in the right place, ready and willing to execute those plans because without them, the organization really has a plan that's not worth the paper it's written on because it needs its people at their best to be able to execute those plans. And a lot of times that comes through workshops and development. A lot of times that comes through one-on-one or group coaching efforts to enhance the commitment that people have as well as their competence. Sometimes it comes with tailored events that need to be facilitated to bring people together and aligned with the goals that we're striving for, and ultimately working with my clients on their systems to make sure that every dollar that they invest in their people is a dollar well spent and it aligns to something that they target that is very purposeful rather than a “nice to have.” So I've been doing that for a long time now and I've had the pleasure of working in a number of industries across the spectrum with a number of different types of organizations: public, private, smaller and now much more of that mid- to large-space organizations that have enough people where we can make a difference and truly create the kind of workplace that people can find themselves, they can really align themselves, see themselves achieving their goals, and, oh, by the way, helping the organization be successful as well, because we all deserve that kind of a workplace. Andi Simon: Engagement, though, is always a strange word. People talk about it wishfully. I'm not quite sure they would know it if they saw it. And then I couldn't be sure how they would feel it if it was there. So let's start off with, you know, you've moved through the 30 years into working with organizations large and small, and now you're beginning to really find ways to make a difference. Why? Why should we even think about this thing called employee engagement? Why does it matter? Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, let's approach that from a number of different angles. Let's look at our protagonists in the story. Let's talk about, first and foremost, the employees themselves. People seek out environments where they can feel like their needs are being met. And when we talk about engagement needs, we talk about the need all of us have, first and foremost, to be valued and appreciated in what we do. Second of all, to feel like they belong in that environment, that they're part of a team, part of a tribe. These are basic needs, fundamental needs that we all have. In addition to that, in our workplaces, in our careers, we all seek to feel like we are making a meaningful contribution, that we are able to be productive in what we're doing. So at the end of the day, we feel like we've accomplished something. And ultimately most of us want to know that we are operating in an environment that invests in us, supports us so we can continue to learn and grow so we're not remaining stagnant. So from that perspective, from an employee standpoint, these are basic needs that employees are looking for in their organizations. Now, the book that I'm writing is actually written from the perspective of the employer, the leader, the leader in all of us that now has to try to win the hearts and minds of their people and try to address those needs that people have. And from that perspective, employers are looking at it and saying, “You know what, I put out a lot of things. I spend a lot of my money, my resources, my capital towards my employees. I want to know that that investment is being reciprocated and that there is value for me investing in that.” Otherwise, most employers will just settle for what they can get. They'll settle for a situation where they'll think, okay, I'll just pay the basic minimum because I'm not going to get much more than that. Whereas the companies that are truly performing at the highest levels, the brands that we have come to know and appreciate, they do things a little bit differently. They truly capture that engaged spirit of their people. They capture that discretionary effort, that commitment that people can bring to their work that want to see the organization succeed. That's the magic that we're trying to capture and that's the environment that we all deserve to operate in. Andi Simon: Assuming that one who's listening or viewing is beginning to visualize an engaged organization with high levels of employee engagement. And I do this with my own clients, visualize. You can see it. You can become it. So what will a highly engaged workforce feel like or look like? Because while we say the words that they want value and they really want to be connected and productive, how will I see that? Will I know it? What will it feel like? And, what are the actions of the behaviors, not just the spirit that's going to be demonstrated here for an organization to know I'm moving them into an engagement. Tell me, how do I see it? What will it feel like? Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, first and foremost, the feeling is a different level of energy. There's a certain heightened level of energy. There is an excitement, an urgency about the place. There is an environment where you notice that there are leaders at all levels of the organization, people taking personal accountability and ownership of activities. They're not sitting around waiting for people to tell them what to do or not. They aren't just taking advantage of the fact that, Well, guess what, my boss hasn't really contacted me, I'm just going to sit here and play solitaire. Engaged workforce looks for things that need to get done. Why? Because they feel appreciated and value moving forward. They're connected and understand clearly what the goals are, and they're looking for opportunities to support their teammates in meaningful ways and make contributions that they understand and know will make a difference for the organization and for themselves. And ultimately, they look at each one of their daily activities as opportunities to learn to grow, to capitalize on that, to invest in themselves. Because truly, work becomes learning, work becomes play, work becomes exciting. That's the kind of place where engagement really thrives. So as I work with one of my clients and we talk about how to build engagement, I'd probably say something like, Today, people wait to be told what to do. And in an engaged organization, they individually take the autonomy and accountability to try and solve a problem before they have to be told what to do rather than wait to have an idea come from someplace else. They bring the ideas elsewhere so they can see it manifesting into new ways of doing things rather than coming in and punching a clock. They want to see what else. They wake up in the morning, put their feet on the ground and say, How can I do something better today? Is that the kind of thing you're looking at? Andi Simon: Yes, absolutely. Because what you're describing manifests itself with a very different attitude towards work. People are excited to be there. People are looking forward to the opportunity to engage, to see their partners out there because they truly see them as partners. There is a level of ownership, again, that thrives in this environment where people will step forward and say, How can I support you? It's very easy to put your ego aside because you don't feel threatened when you feel like part of the team, like you belong, like you are allowed to be there when you are valued for what you bring, small or large to this to the table. Kon Apostolopoulos: Different people will contribute in different ways. But if you can see that connection between your job, your work, your output and how this moves the organization forward, that's an important part. I mean, we all want to know where we belong and how we fit into this. It's no different than I explain it to a lot of the leaders that I work with. I say, If you have a group photo, Andi, what's the first thing you're going to do when you get it in your hands? You're going to look for…where am I in this picture and how do I fit in. That's right. That's exactly the picture that we need to paint for every single one of our people. So they know clearly in no uncertain terms what they do, where they belong and how they contribute to this and that. That contribution is truly valued and appreciated. Andi Simon: You said something very important because there are times when that picture is of a toxic team and the need to belong overwhelms the need to do well. And consequently, we've all had clients where every department is toxic to the others. You know, finance won't talk to marketing and marketing can't talk to sales. And they all are on a different agenda. And somehow the organization's supposed to thrive. They're all engaged, but not in what you should be. So is there some wisdom you can bring to us today about how you take apart that kind of silos? I'm thinking of a client I had in Mexico where everything was so siloed that nobody wanted to work there. Kon Apostolopoulos: Right. Well, think about what drives a lot of that when we have a scarcity mentality, when the people that are incentivizing the work, that are driving the work, that are directing the work, say, Okay, there's only so much accolades, so much reward to go around for what I'm looking for. You guys fight amongst yourselves who's going to get it. But if I come at it from the perspective of abundance and I say, There's enough gratitude and appreciation, there's enough acknowledgement for all of us to be successful, that takes away the need for us to fight over scraps. And that's a big part. That's a fundamental, visceral reaction we have when we are in an environment where our very safety is threatened because that's what a toxic environment does. Different levels of our physical, mental, emotional well-being are threatened by that. There is a scarcity out there. There's not enough of that. That's why we strive to kind of rise to the top. But it's the collusion of mass mediocrity. It's the crabs in the bucket. Every time you try to rise above the rest in an environment like that, the rest of them are going to pull you down because it's not even about them getting out there desperate enough that they will pull you down to climb all over you to get away. And that's not a healthy environment, that kind of workplaces are condemned. It's just a matter of time. They're dead and they don't even know it. Andi Simon: It was interesting in that particular client, they were struggling to expand and become more innovative with a workforce that believed that the old ways were the way we do things, we can't change. And I'm listening to you. They were each engaged in a different story. And we're storytellers. And I always tell my clients, you live the story that's in your mind. So what's your story? And as I'm listening to it, it's that they see the world around them in this company for their benefit, not for them serving a larger purpose. And I think that higher level purpose is what will create engaged employees, or is that not what you see also. Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, I totally agree with you, but in order to get to that higher purpose, those fundamental needs will need to be met. There needs to be a “we need to create the kind of environment where people don't have to worry about those things, where if you're talking about a company that's trying to innovate, you know it better than I do.” Innovation demands risk. We cannot hope to innovate, to change, without risk. Well, in an environment that you're describing that's that toxic, where people are holding on to the norms and to the old ways, the legacy ways of doing things. Why are they doing that? Because they know it's safe, because stepping outside of those boundaries has always perhaps been chastised, perhaps has been penalized, perhaps it's been seen as evil. So they want one thing, but they're rewarding or creating consequences for that thing. They're rewarding the opposite behavior and thus creating those consequences for that. You can't ask me to take risks if you're not allowing me to make mistakes. Andi Simon: Well, and it is particularly difficult. I sometimes have been working with companies, going through transitions with new leadership, and while they can say the words, I want you to be a more self-empowered entrepreneur, and the old person was directing and controlling the people who are there who don't know what the words mean and they don't know how to be self empowered. It's so interesting. Let's go back to your book, though. You've structured this book in a way to create a blueprint, and that becomes an interesting metaphor for what you're trying to set up. I want to give you enough time to talk about the blueprint and how somebody might enable it or execute on it, because you clearly have a methodology here you want to share. Kon Apostolopoulos: Thank you. And yes, indeed, what I found is that I started this project about 18 months ago. It was, as you mentioned, Dr. Elia and I had the opportunity to write a book together right at the dawn of the pandemic. And we got it out early on because we knew that people needed help. And that book was the 7 Keys to Navigating a Crisis. And it was a roadmap on how people can emotionally deal with change, drastic change in their lives. What evolved from that, Andi, was an opportunity to take that same roadmap to my clients and to large organizations and really show them how what applies to the individual can apply, expanded out, and scaled out to large organizations as well. Well, once we got past that point now into 2022 and my clients are looking at what's next, how do I get my people back in here and on board to work? So we started the discussion about how we win back that commitment from our people so they want to come back to the workplace, either physically or even through this hybrid or virtual model that we exist, but still truly gaining that commitment. And that started the discussion based on that need. And I started researching. I started looking at the data that was coming out of very reputable sources, whether that be Harvard and their Business Review documents, through Gallup, through the Pew Research Center, through Deloitte, through all of them, various big names. And looking at the data and the trends that I was seeing, what I discovered are essentially that there are those four key elements, those four key drivers that we need to satisfy: the need that people have to feel valued, the need that people have to feel like they're connected, the need that people have to be productive, and ultimately the need to feel supported to learn and grow. And then in looking at my history, I realized, Andi, that that's the work that I've been doing with my clients the last 30 years. And so the realization just hit me that the very framework that I've used over the years to support my clients is the same framework that answers those questions of how we create that environment. So essentially four drivers, and I have four pillars of the work that I do, that essentially each one of those pairings of my pillars addresses one of those needs. So it's almost like an overlap, if you will, and it fits so well in the sense of when I talk about how do we show people that we value them well beyond an equitable and honest paycheck, where people can feel like they are being rewarded equitably for the work that they do. Well, if you invest in people and you build their competence and their abilities and their commitment, they can and want to do the job. When you start connecting that commitment through coaching and the team building pieces, the elements now, people can feel like they are connected. When I work with people on the competence and the systems that will support that, that allows them to be productive. And then when I take the systems that I built, the people systems and the team building, the teamwork part, we balanced both the output of task and the relationship pieces to now show people in a transparent way how they can build their careers and how they can achieve their goals through the organization, and grow and learn and expand their career so they no longer seek other places, other avenues outside the organization. They can reach all their goals within the organization. And that whole packaging allowed me to really bring the data and the information, the science on one side and my 30 years of experience on the other, and put them together in such a way that now I have a very clear framework that is proven to be successful. And now I've got the stories behind it to show and illustrate in the book along the way, the case studies that will allow us to really illustrate each one of these points. Andi Simon: Is there a case study or two that you can share? Because it's always the stories that people remember. And as you and I were talking in preparation, I thought there were a couple of great ones. Kon Apostolopoulos: Yeah. And there's one particularly that I think illustrates the complete package that I'm describing right now. And I have that, I've published that as a case study for the industry itself, and it involves one of my main clients, one of my nearest and dearest clients that I've worked with almost from the beginning when I started my venture. They are a construction company and basically I work with one of four regions of this large billion dollar construction company. But when I started working with them almost a decade ago, they weren't a $1 billion company at the time. The region that I was working with was about pushing close to 200 million in revenues for this area. Over the years, as we've partnered, their goal for their strategic priorities for the five year plan was to double their revenue to reach 400 million in the time that we worked together and reaching up to last year. And this is basically, 2022 was their end of their fiscal year, they achieved 600 million in revenue. So when I was sitting down with the president, the regional president and his team, he acknowledged that this would not have been possible without the work that we have done together, developing the systems and the people and creating a talent management plan that really supported their business strategy. Now, that's not in itself the most extraordinary thing, because we can say that, you know what, we contributed. But I will bring a little bit more evidence to the story here. I mentioned to you that this is one of four regions. The other three regions are equal opportunity, equal size with this region. They in themselves only did 400 million collectively. So not only are we showing the proof of what works for this particular region against their competitors here in this market, but we're also showing it against the other control groups within the same organization, same structure, same hierarchy, same policies in other areas. We do things a little bit differently here. We modified some things and we're able to really showcase that difference profitability wise, far exceeding the collective of the other three regions. Satisfaction, employee engagement numbers, retention, promoting ability, all of the key performance indicators that show that you are operating in a way that you have a healthy workplace where people can thrive and they want to stay and they can grow their careers. All of that was evident and present in this case, Andrea, so that's the point that I point to, that is the example that I point to where everything has come together and all of this suite of offerings has been presented to them and utilized. Andi Simon: Don't forget to send me the link to that and we'll include it on the blog where we put the podcast because it becomes concrete as opposed to abstract, but it's also data demonstrated and evidence based and it says, Oh, this could really help my business turn from good to great, huh? Kon Apostolopoulos: Correct. It's the difference maker because at the time when all the companies were hemorrhaging and bleeding people, they couldn't keep their people there with the Great Resignation and people were abandoning their jobs in droves and millions in the millions. This company, we not only did not lose any of our top people, we actually became a destination for people leaving their other organizations. So when you can become that employment brand that others seek out, when you become that employer of choice, how much easier is your job? How much does it save your bottom line, knowing that you can attract the best and brightest and retain them within your environment? That is a competitive advantage that will help you truly differentiate yourself from the competitors. Andi Simon: Well, and it's not just salary, is it? It's all the other, I'll call them, I don't want to call them soft. They are the kind of human stuff that people are looking for. It's true. They work for a paycheck, but they really do want to belong to an organization that values them and helps them get valued. It allows them to be productive and creative and really connected to others in a way that leads to better results.  And so we're coming back to describing that kind of an engaged environment that we're talking about. I mean, that's truly what we were trying to picture for our audience here. And to understand when you are confident that your top performers, even if they pick up the phone and somebody says, Come work for me, I'm going to give you X amount more, and they say, Thank you, but I'm very happy where I am. Yeah, I can see myself here. This is my home. This is my workplace. This is where I find I'm at my best. That's a tremendous, tremendous asset to an organization that you can't put a price on that. No, there is no price because it is the differentiator for life, not just for a company. As for an individual's life where it has meaning and purpose, it's pretty cool. So let's go back to your engagement blueprint. When you have a client map out where they are and where they're going and how they're going to get there, can they do it on their own? Do they need your support? Are there steps that are simple to follow? Kon Apostolopoulos: There are. And that's what I'm trying to capture with the book. I'm trying to show people an easy way for them to first and foremost, assess which one of these drivers are strengths for them in their current environment, which areas they need to pay special attention to. And I outline each one of these areas, certain elements that should be present and available for them to consider. But I still don't dictate which way they want to go. I make the recommendations of these areas that they should focus on, provide some examples of my own, but also case studies, many case studies in there. And oh, by the way, we are also interviewing industry leaders across the spectrum, people that have been there, done that, and can speak to each one of these elements from their own organizations, people like Jamie Simpson, that is the hotel director I lead for a Jumeirah property that just had their 20 year anniversary, the first one of Jumeirah property meeting on Salam in Dubai. And they won the most prestigious team award in their area from Hotelier magazine. And she and her team showed what it looks like to be able to operate. Now, think about that. We're talking about a wonderful, talented leader operating in what many would consider a culture that is very male dominated in an industry that is full of male executives. Yet this powerful individual, this talented woman, has brought together in her own way, using her own talents and skills, brought together and created an engaged workplace where people can thrive. And her team can vary, can succeed with proof because that is not a small thing to achieve that award. Andi Simon: No, And it is an acknowledgement of something more than just financial success. It's about something much bigger than this. This is really an interesting time. You know, Kon, you're a giver and you are a person who wants to help others grow. I know as we were talking about this book, what you have a whole lot of things that you'd like to share with our listeners and viewers and maybe their organizations to help them get going before the book comes out. You want to share? Would you share some of those things? Kon Apostolopoulos: Absolutely. And thank you, Andrea. First and foremost, we've developed with my team an online version of our simple questionnaire that will allow anyone to kind of answer some basic questions and get a feel for where are we strong, where do we need to focus on, which one of these drivers do we find present in our environments, which one we might want to pay some attention to, with some very simple guidelines and simple examples of what they can do differently. So I'd like as a first gift to offer that to you or to our audience here today, Andrea. And we can add that in. We can provide a link for them. They can simply go online, complete their questionnaire and have the opportunity to get some quick answers on the spot. Beyond that, if people are interested in finding out more, I'd love to welcome them into our growing community. And in this community we talk often about tips, ideas, examples of how to really engage our workforce, how to really create that environment for our people. It's also the place where I'll be sharing a lot of excerpts from the book, early previews of some of the interviews that I've been doing. Wonderful, valuable information that people can immediately turn around and apply, and if they so choose, to be part of this community, this growing community, and have first access to the insights and the information that we're sharing. Even before the book is published. Andi Simon: This is so exciting. So we can start with the self-assessment, and begin to become familiar through this group of the kinds of things you're doing. And then the book is expected to come out by when? Kon Apostolopoulos: 2024. We're putting the final touches on it. We're wrapping up some of our interviews and we'll have some what I hope people will find as wonderful little surprises and nuggets in there for them. Andi Simon: I can't wait. There's my crackerjack box in my little nugget in there. This has been such fun. Now, if they want to reach you, where's a good place to get a hold of you? Kon Apostolopoulos: Well, the easiest place for those people that embrace the LinkedIn platform is to look me up under Koach Kon. I spelled with a K on purpose. Andrea, I don't want to mislead people. I want to make sure that they know. So Koach Kon on LinkedIn and they can also visit my website freshbizsolutions.com where they can find additional information about perhaps how we can help them or how they can readily find resources to help themselves really create the kind of environment where people can thrive. Andi Simon: I love it. Do you have a team of people who work with you, or is this mostly stuff you're doing as a solopreneur? Kon Apostolopoulos: A lot of it is myself. I do reach out to trusted partners at times. I have a team that helps me with my marketing, with some of my strategic planning, perhaps with creating and building a lot of the assets that are of high quality that I can offer to my clients and to those listeners that we have here today. But periodically it's always a pleasure to be able to partner with people that I respect in the industry like yourself, Andrea, and people like we can work together. We offer each other our insights and our support, but for the most part, yes, there would be me. Andi Simon: I think that's pretty good because if you've just been hearing Kon talk, he knows what he's talking about and he and I share a whole lot of the same challenges as people who work with organizations that need to change or want to. And I can't say it often enough, but change is pain and your brain hates us. And how many times have companies said to me, Well, that's not the way we do it. I said, Well, that's the problem. It's the way you do it. Yeah, but that's the way it's done and I say, But it doesn't have to be. Behaviors can change and if you change the behaviors, then your mind comes along and makes it sensible as well. So it's not simple, but it is doable and it is doable with, I think, this engagement blueprint on how to build a more inclusive company that can really, really produce at a level that you're looking for. So I've had a great time here today and this has been absolutely a wonderful conversation. I will make sure it's up on our blog and we push it out when it's time. And I know my listeners and my viewers are going to say, Can I learn more? And I have a hunch you want to learn more. So I'm going to say goodbye to everybody. Thank you for coming. And so it's a pleasure to help you get off the brink. And the only way you can do that is to see things through a fresh lens and feel them in new ways like we've done today. And then give some thought to, Do I need a blueprint? Do I need to begin to put together a process for change? And then we can together or alone begin to help you do just that. I will tell you that changing behavior is very doable. You just need new habits. And if you think of that that way, you need to stop doing what you've done and start new habits and practice and practice and practice until they become the way we do things. And it's not hard. It just needs to be done. And so these are changing times that require new things to happen. So with great pleasure, thank you for coming. Please keep sending me your friends and people you want me to talk to and people to listen to the podcast and share it. It's always a pleasure. Have a great day.Take care now. Bye bye.

Learn how to let go of worry and fear by learning new habits Today I bring you Joanna Hardis, a beautiful woman whom you're going to love listening to. Joanna is focused on helping people with anxiety-related issues and obsessive compulsive disorders, so this is a person you really might like to know more about if that's something that is in your life. She can give you strategies to help you break through the barriers that are holding you back and learn to let feelings be, which is what she talks about in her new book, Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way. Like me, Joanna preaches that change is hard but we can do it, we really can change and have a happier, more fulfilling life. Listen in and enjoy. Watch and listen to our conversation here Change your thinking, change your behavior Joanna teaches us that when your brain wants to go to the “worry story,” that state of mind that's causing you to be anxious, that is when you can learn specific skills to say, “Nope, I'm going to let that story be.” It's really about doing nothing with those thoughts, letting the thoughts be, letting the feelings be there. She says that you may feel worried, but you're not going to engage in those feelings, you're going to let them be, instead of trying to get rid of them which actually makes the worry and the fear stronger. This really is quite fascinating and as she says, paradoxical. How to reach Joanna You can connect with Joanna on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and her website. Her email is joanna@joannahardis.com. Want to learn more about how to find more joy? Try these: Podcast: Paula Guilfoyle—How Do You Manage Your Emotions To Build Better Conversations For Exceptional Results? Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life? Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi and welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, I'm your host and your guide. And I love to find people to bring to you who can help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can get off the brink. I want you to soar. But sometimes we don't really know how to do that. We want to. We may even visualize what life could be like if it wasn't so…and fill in that blank. But how do I do that? So today, Sarah Wilson, who I love, brought me Joanna Hardis, who is a beautiful woman who you're going to love listening to. Let me tell you about her and then she'll tell you about her own journey because she has a new book. And we'll talk a little bit about the book today. It's called Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way. So here's Joanna's background. She's a licensed independent social worker, a therapist and an executive coach in Ohio, and that's her main business. She's committed to helping people overcome complex challenges. And I know some people who watching this podcast are going to say, That's me, I got it and it's okay. So they can lead high quality lives. Her expertise lies in cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, which you may know about, an exposure and response prevention for adults, children and adolescents. You can find her on LinkedIn and learn a lot more about her. A couple of things I just want to highlight. She really is focused on helping people in the face of anxiety-related issues and obsessive compulsive disorders. So this is a person you really might like to know more about if that's something that is disturbing you and she can identify what's holding you back and give you strategies to help move you forward. And today, the things that I think we're going to talk about as we talk about doing nothing, it's called empower you to understand, break through the barriers that are holding you back, create your own sliding scale of distress, and learn to let feelings be instead of letting them go. We'll come back to these, and I'm sure Joanna is going to tell you a whole lot more about them. Please, thank you for joining us. Joanna Hardis: Thank you for that lovely introduction, Andi. Appreciate that. Andi Simon: Well, I appreciate having you. Our audience will as well. I'm curious about both your background, your journey, the origin of this great book, and then what our listeners will learn from our podcast today about this complex world that we're in and the anxiety that often arises. And life is too short. We have to find better ways to live it. Your story. Joanna Hardis: Yes. So how I got here. I imagine, well, I never intended to be a therapist. I sort of just happened to get here. I went to college, pre-med, not really even wanting to be pre-med. I wanted a fellowship in high school to do independent study and had a real interest in working with people with HIV. So I was in high school in the 80s when HIV was really emerging on the scene. I don't know how it emerged, but I had an interest in working with people with HIV and AIDS. So a friend and I got a fellowship to do independent study and worked with physicians at a local hospital working with people with HIV and AIDS. So I went to college, went to Cornell and had this real interest in having a career in HIV and AIDS, and was told at Cornell like, Oh, then you're pre-med. And I was not a very savvy student, despite being at Cornell. So I was in a pre-med track and realized quickly that it was not for me. And went to my advisor who said, What do you like? And I said, I really like people. And so the advisor said, Okay, well, maybe you're a social worker and not someone who at that time was very savvy. Again, I said, Okay, well let me give this a shot. Let me give this social work thing a shot. And I got to do an internship. So I went to Costa Rica and lived and worked. And I thought that was incredibly cool. So I kind of found my way into social work, never thinking about other career paths like psychology or counseling, but really found my way into social work by happenstance. I started my career in HIV. I spent about a decade in HIV, still hold it very near and dear to my heart, but really fell in love with working with people and have a real interest in what makes people click and the brain and helping people move forward. So my career started in HIV and AIDS and I got trained in cognitive behavioral therapy and have really always had this interest in helping people who are in very complicated situations, working collaboratively to move them forward. And so I have been able to partner with people throughout my career, and I'm in my 27th year as a cognitive behavioral therapist. I do that and really work with people in different areas of life. So I've been with people with HIV and AIDS. I've worked in an eating disorder treatment center, which is unbelievably challenging. I've worked with young entrepreneurs. I have volunteered during the pandemic with therapy aides, just giving, volunteering with frontline workers to now having my own private practice where I have really committed to working with people with anxiety disorders because it just makes so much sense to me. Anxiety disorders and obsessive compulsive disorder. Andi Simon: And there is an abundance. There's an epidemic of this. Joanna Hardis: Yes. Andi Simon: And so it's not as if you're looking at a needle in a haystack. It is the haystack. Joanna Hardis: It is. It is. And, you know, we know from data that parents who struggle, it has an impact on children. So I find it incredibly rewarding. I stopped seeing kids and adolescents during Covid because I had to move virtually. And so now my practice is adult. But I do work a lot with parents to change their behavior because we know that that can help children. We need a different way in which to help people that are struggling. Andi Simon: And before we get into the book, which I'd like to know more about as to why you wrote it and what the listener can benefit from. But give us some context here for the audience, around where does anxiety come from? And the context, because what you're talking about is that it becomes contagious. What's going on with the parents? It gets picked up as normal by the children, who then spread it among other children who think we should all be anxious instead of we should all be happy. But I'm making that up. You help me help you, What is it like and how can we better identify it? Joanna Hardis: Sure. And there is a difference between an anxiety disorder and anxiety, which is just a normal state and a normal reaction, for instance, to fear. So it exists on a continuum. So let's walk it back a little bit to the difference between fear and worry, because oftentimes we confuse fear and worry. Fear is a response to a threat. So someone cuts you off on the highway and you get that fear. You get that flood of adrenaline in your whole body, you get the whoosh, the flood of adrenaline. That's fear. It is a response to a biological threat, an external threat. Well, what if that happens again? What if someone cuts me off again? And what if that car is too close and oh my gosh, what if I need to go really slowly? That cognitive process to fear is what we call worry. Andi Simon: Good. Great distinction. Joanna Hardis: Right. And if you're still feeling the physical sensations, we would say, I am feeling anxious. Andi Simon: Gotcha. This is perfect, I know exactly who's listening today. And that is exactly what they have gone through. And an initial fear of something that is now turned into anticipatory worry about it. Right. And it makes them anxious and unable to make good decisions. Joanna Hardis: Yes. Now, and we may say that anxiety, perhaps that ride, you may feel anxious. But if that worry or that anxiety persists and the person every single time they get in the car or they think about getting in the car, they are worrying and they're feeling anxious and it is starting to impair and it could impair their life because every time they're thinking about it, they are worrying. Then we are starting to cross the line. And we may say that it could be crossing over if it happens for long enough. Yeah, it could cross over into an anxiety disorder. Or we may say it's excessive worrying. Andi Simon: Yeah. Those are great words because it's difficult to know whether the situation requires a suitable amount of fear reaction or anticipating it. You're worrying about something that may never, ever happen again and impairs your life. You're smiling at me, but I really understand that for some situations, people are so anxious that they can't take a step forward, they get locked in their own fear. Joanna Hardis: Exactly. And then you know what? You have nailed it, Andi. And what people don't recognize, they wouldn't because they don't know this stuff, is that the more time someone spends worrying about it, it is training their brain that this is important and that this is dangerous and that this fear that they have is actually relevant in the absence of any data that says it's relevant. So the brain gets trained and then the brain is going to say, oh my gosh, we need to be extra vigilant. Andi Simon: Yep. And they can't articulate what the crisis will be because it has nothing to do with the facts of what's going on. It has to do with their worry factor. Joanna Hardis: Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so learning how to stay out of the story, the worry story, because there's nothing in their direct experience that speaks to that. This is what is happening right now. Andi Simon: It is. But it's also very interesting about the connection between something that might have happened as opposed to not knowing why I'm here. And I have a hunch that sort of leads to our discussion about what you do and what this book is intended to do. Because once you see that progress and the dead end and the only way you can revert people back to seeing the world in a positive way is to back it up somehow and rethink it somehow or restructure it somehow. Help me help them. Joanna Hardis: Unfortunately, the brain can't unlearn. Andi Simon: Yes. Joanna Hardis: So the brain cannot unlearn that. You had that frightening experience. But what we can do is we can create new learning. Andi Simon: Yes. Joanna Hardis: And so that's what the person needs to focus on, is that in this direct moment, in this present moment when their brain wants to go to the worry story, that is when they need to learn the skills to say, Nope, whatever it is that I want to go into the worry story, I need to learn how to let that story be. It's really doing nothing with those thoughts, letting the thoughts be, letting my feelings be there. I may feel worried, but I'm not going to engage in them, letting that stuff be. And the focus is on the action that's important. So getting in the car and driving and not paying attention to, oh my gosh, well, what if this happens? What if I get cut off? What if someone drives too close? It's doing what we know in the moment is in the behavior. And letting the other stuff be.  Andi Simon: So I am curious about the book because I love this idea of when these things arrive, you've got to learn new thinking processes and new behaviors, so you become consciously competent about how to change what I'm thinking and feeling. So I begin to do it and practice it so I can become good at it. Right? It's like a game. We don't think of it as a game, but it is, to learn new habits. Joanna Hardis: Correct. And it's paradoxical. So the title, you know, the catchy title is Just Do Nothing. But then the subtitle, which is The Paradoxical Guide for Getting Out of Your Way. The paradox is that, and I suspect people that listen to you can relate. People are used to doing more. Yeah. And when people are feeling a lot and feeling more, they're used to doing more to get rid of it. So they think more. They ruminate more, they worry more. Andi Simon: And they write long, long, long, long, long things about it that you can't figure out what it's all about. Right?  Joanna Hardis: Yes. Well, exactly. And so it's doing more to try to get rid of it that makes the worry and the fear stronger. So what we want to do is to learn how to get the skills, to do less with how we're feeling and the thoughts that are so troublesome. And so that's what the book helps people learn: the skills to practice in very small ways that build on each other to do that. And then they do it in gradually more stressful situations. Andi Simon: So Joanna, talk to us about where this book came from, this is your first book. Joanna Hardis: This is my first. Andi Simon: My first book took me four years, my second book, only two, my last one, a year. I mean, we begin to figure out how to write a book and why it's important, but this is an important book. Where did the idea come from and how did it develop? Joanna Hardis: It was interesting. People have always suggested I write a book and I always said I'd never had anything to write a book about. So I didn't really have an intention. And then I had been doing workshops with a colleague that I met who also is interested in anxiety work, and we had been doing them on helping people change their relationship with distress and discomfort. So I had been working professionally in this space in addition to my practice. And then a year ago I had a curveball in my own life. I was dating, someone got ghosted, and it was my own personal explosion of distress. And it was someone I've been divorced from for ten years, but it was someone that I really thought that I could go someplace and was ghosted out of nowhere. And I had to really work on what I had been talking about in a way that I hadn't in a long time. And so it was a confluence of professional interest and then personal experience. And from that, I and the ghosting story, is literally the first page of the book. The book came out of that intersection and I had a fire in my belly and it took me less than a year to write the book. Andi Simon: Yes. Exciting. Well, but it was there to cleanse yourself. Writing is a great way to take the mind and what it's thinking about and push it out. All the things that you're talking about, to learn new ways to build a new story. Joanna Hardis: Yes. And what's interesting is my work is focused on anxiety in my professional life. But what I talk about is distress, because what is under the umbrella of distress is anxiety, is stress, is shame, is embarrassment, is boredom. All these feelings that people really don't like to feel. And so it broadens the umbrella for people because what trips people up, whether it's what gets in people's way, whether it's not going to the gym, overeating, not asking for a raise. It may not always be anxiety. It may be shame, it may be embarrassment, it may be boredom. And so people need a process for all of those feelings.  Andi Simon: And you just said the word so well, because we decide with the heart and how things feel, then the brain gets engaged. And I also always preach that we live the story in our mind. And that story is an illusion of what your reality is, and you live it. And then something like your situation arises and now you have to rewrite that story to give it a positive experience for you so you can wake up every morning and say, Hey, this is a good day, as opposed to, Oh crud, do I have to get out of bed? But that's really important. So talk to us about the book itself and then the kinds of things about the solution: just do nothing. Joanna Hardis: Okay, so the book is structured in two parts. The first part is really frontloaded with education to help people understand why change is hard. Because I wrote the book for people, because I'm assuming that people who pick this up have tried to change their feelings. Stuck. They may have tried lots of things before and for many people, they're coming in with a perception that there may be skepticism. They may think that their perception may be that they can't change. So I want people to understand and this is all evidence-based work. So it is not just Joanna's thoughts about life. It's all evidence-based. Why change is hard. Why? You know how we need to think about the thoughts in our head? You know, facts about feelings that are helpful for people, why we shouldn't take them so seriously, that they only last 90 seconds. And in the first part, everything has exercises. So at the end of every chapter, there are exercises to practice. So you can read the book any number of ways. You can do each chapter and then do the exercises. You can read the whole book through and then go back through and do the exercises. The second part of the book is Everything that Could Go Wrong. As you set about to make a change in your life, what could go wrong and how to course correct? So the first part is really to help people change their relationship with distress and discomfort. So it is really explaining why we need a new way, why things that you have may have tried don't necessarily work. And then I lay out how we're going to do it differently. So instead of trying to get rid of feelings that we don't like, we're going to allow them and then we're going to learn to do nothing with them and we're going to focus on behavior that is meaningful to us and how we're going to create a scale breakdown. What you want to change into little baby parts, and how when you start to feel the discomfort, you know how to move through it and you'll have exercises to practice going from something with very low discomfort, with a process to move through higher discomfort. And then in the second half, as I said, it's everything that could go wrong, including that when something gets hard and you feel like you failed, how to reframe your relationship with setbacks. Andi Simon: Love this. You have no idea how timely this is for different people in my life who have gone through something traumatic or that they think is traumatic or are anticipating something traumatic. It's so interesting to listen to the categories in my mind of the folks who you are describing without describing them as types. Joanna Hardis: Yes. Interesting. Andi Simon: It is. One is a young woman at a university that had somebody come in and shoot a professor. Joanna Hardis: Oh, gosh, yes. Andi Simon: And when you talk about the distress, the fear, the worry, and how do parents manage that in a way which doesn't deny that there's anxiety or anxiousness or concern to the point where the young woman said, I can't even take a walk without feeling unsafe. And that is that car story where I'm not going to get in the car to drive because somebody almost hit me. And that becomes one kind of situation and another situation, that I know of where the act of doing something is going to be potentially dangerous, and so I'm not going to. Well, but maybe you'll miss a whole opportunity because it could be dangerous. And so there's the disappointing one. But I think that what you're describing is exactly what we know when we work. I mean, I have positioned myself as a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. And for my listeners, I always preach that change is pain. Because once you got a story in your mind, that's the way you live and you don't realize that these other things could change that story. Or if you want to change what you're doing, you're going to have to change the story. There is no reality. There's only this mythical story in your mind. And it's not doing good things for you. Your book sets out a path to change it. Am I correct? Joanna Hardis: Yes. Andi Simon: Oh, my gosh. You and I have a lot in common.  Joanna Hardis: Yes. Because in my field, we talk about what distress intolerance is, and distress intolerance is someone's perception that they can't handle. We call it negative internal states. So I can't handle feeling anxious about taking a walk. So I'm going to stay home. So it's getting locked into the story and then avoiding it. Andi Simon: Yes. And that becomes my view of the world as if it's real, not imagined, but everything is imagined. And so if I'm going to get past that and trust, I'm going to have to figure out how to take a step outside and begin to break the resistance to my fear and worry. Joanna Hardis: Yes, exactly. And that's what I'm talking about. Exactly. And we go about it because we have to get the behavior. We change thinking by changing behavior. Andi Simon: I love it because that's just what I preach. Because to change, you can't do your strategy and be abstract. You have to change the behaviors, the habits so that things are actionable and then the brain comes and justifies. It doesn't get better. Joanna Hardis: We're saying the same thing, but different.  Andi Simon: But it is so exciting. It is. Now, this has come out of your work, but it isn't your work. So in some ways, you want to reach beyond the folks in Ohio that are in therapy with you. Joanna Hardis: So, yes. Andi Simon: How do you do some online seminars, workshops, or things that people could come to you for? Joanna Hardis: So my colleague and I are doing online seminars, workshops, and we're retooling it now. We are retooling it. And we're going to be doing a course, interestingly, for anxious parents. Andi Simon: Oh, great. Joanna Hardis: Yes. Andi Simon: And do they have to be just in Ohio or could they be anywhere? Joanna Hardis: It can be anybody. It can. When we do these, it can be for anybody. But we are focusing on parents because right now there is so much nationally about parents that are anxious and are having a really hard time tolerating not only their children's distress. And so that makes it really hard for parents to parent the way they know they want to be parenting or need to be parenting. And parents have a really hard time tolerating their own distress. So they give in to their kids or they're constantly nagging or they're doing the work for their kids and they're not allowing their kids the independence and the autonomy that we know kids need. Andi Simon: This is so powerful because it is going to create a different world for the generation that's coming. And I'll blame it on the pandemic for the moment. But it is a time of transformation without clarity about how do I, on the one hand, cope with my anxiousness or my distress, my fear, and then also make sure that the next generation grows up strong, happy and able to solve complex problems with creative thinking, all the things that kids learn by playing outside on the street together and making a game together. Right? Joanna Hardis: Yes. Yes. So that's in the works. We're in the final stages of putting the course together. And, you know, who knows? I mean, I may develop a course from the book. I have to see. It's only been out a month. So I think if there's interest, I may put something together. Andi Simon: I think that you have a mission that I think is transformational for our culture and society that's far bigger than that. If I hear you right, you mean you want to take the next generation of parents and kids and make them happy because it isn't that the world is bad, it's that they see it that way. You know, that letting a child walk to school, it's not going to be they're not going to get kidnapped. They might, but they're not. I rode my bike to school growing up and I went outside and we played kickball or stickball or whatever, on the street. We didn't have organized stuff to the degree they have now. And so we were free to be kids. And I and some of my neighbors, we still stay in touch when we remember the joy of pulling the sled. I mean, it was freedom.  So now it's become very constrained. And I'm not going to blame and complain. But I do think that if we don't transform, the next generation is going to see the world through a very different lens and they're not going to want to do anything. Joanna Hardis: Yes. No, I agree with you. And I saw recently in The Wall Street Journal that parents, when kids are at summer camp, which used to be a time away from parents, parents are now obsessively looking over kids' photos. So I guess camps are now posting photos of their kids at camp and parents are obsessively looking over the camp photos to make sure that the kids look happy, and they're contacting the camps. And parents are really invested in the photos and taking action. Andi Simon: And the photos have no reality. They're just photos you're imposing on them. Meaning…? But that photo may be at a moment where they were dealing with something or struggling with something or happily doing it. You have no idea what the meaning was at that moment. But you are certain that that photo says my son or daughter isn't happy. Joanna Hardis: And has no friends. Right. And then intervening in a child's experience and parents are getting…I mean, there is so much wrong with that. Andi Simon: So much wrong with it. Joanna Hardis: We could do a whole podcast on what's wrong with that, that I think that there is a need to really intervene. And I don't blame parents. I think it's the culture. The pendulum has swung in the other direction. Andi Simon: You might almost team up with all those camp owners and say, You might want to educate your parents before they start their kids in camp. That's a whole audience who, I mean, when I went off to camp, my husband and I started at young ages and it was our free time. The last thing I ever wanted my parents to do is show up. Right? Joanna Hardis: Right. Andi Simon: They don't have to know anything about my sneaking out the back door of the bunk in the middle of the night to meet a guy down by the basketball. That was not what they were supposed to know. Joanna Hardis: Right, Exactly. Can you imagine?  Andi Simon: Right. And the camp directors have gotten caught into this because now the world is all social. And so there's a reality there. That's one last thought. And then we will wrap up because I'm having too much fun. But there's been a whole lot of discussion about the merger of virtual and reality. And I have some friends who are teachers in elementary schools, and the kids are coming in unable to separate out social real from virtual real. And they can't have conversations with other kids. They don't know how to socialize with them. I'll blame the pandemic for that. But also what we've done is replaced people with virtual and now they think that they're almost the same and they like being the avatar in a virtual game rather than having a game with real kids. They don't even know how to play in the schoolyard. Your thoughts? Joanna Hardis: Well, I mean, I can only speak to what it does when I see it, when it turns into an anxiety disorder. I work so hard with people to use real data. It is so easy for people to get lost in possibility. And the more that someone is living online, living virtually, they are living in the ‘what if' and living in possibilities and living in this comparison mode. They are comparing and it is just so hard for them to use their real sense data and it makes it much harder to treat.  Andi Simon: Especially real life experience vs. iimagined. Oh my goodness, welcome to the world that we're moving into, that we haven't even talked about. Joanna Hardis: I was just thinking that.  Andi Simon: Because then I don't know what's real. This has truly been a pleasure. I usually like to ask my speakers 2 or 3 things you want the listeners to remember and then where they can get your book. But first, what should we let them remember the most? Joanna Hardis: A feeling only lasts 90 seconds. That is so important. From the moment it is released in the brain to when it is out of the body. So people will always say, my feelings last hours and hours. That is because we are re-triggering the circuit by our behavior. That is essential to remember. Another thing to remember is that just because we think it or feel it doesn't mean that it's true. Andi Simon: Just because we think it doesn't mean it's true. Joanna Hardis: It doesn't mean it's true. And we always want to go with behavior, behavior that moves us toward what's important to us or what we need to be doing. Andi Simon: This has been truly wonderful. Joanna Hardis: It has been. I've enjoyed it so much. Andi Simon: I have enjoyed it as well. And that's why I do podcasts, because I get pleasure at meeting new people and sharing ideas in ways that are difficult otherwise. And for my listener, it is a time of change, and change is painful, and we are trying to figure out as we are coming out of the pandemic period what is “normal or certain.” And there is no normal and there is no certain. So now you need new skills, the correct skills that Joanna's been talking about, is to begin to think about behavioral change. And because if you begin to do it differently, then you'll think it differently. I‘ve learned a lot about what I needed to know today, which was a perfect day for this. So I want to thank you and the name of the book and where they can get it, please. Joanna Hardis: The book is Just Do Nothing: A Paradoxical Guide to Getting Out of Your Way. They can get it anywhere they want: Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop.org or go to my website: Joannahardis.com. Andi Simon: It is a lovely website and you'll learn more about her. So thank you. And so for all of you who come and are my fans and you keep bringing me more fans, which I love, and more people to speak on the show. Thank you. Our new book, Women Mean Business is now available. Yesterday was our launch day, September 26th, and today is a wonderful day for you to buy it. Just like Joanna, any place that sells great books and enjoy it, it is 500+ wisdoms coming from 102 amazing women who are successful entrepreneurs and philanthropists in finance, in all kinds of ways, including in the C-suite and in senior positions in major firms. But they are leaders and thought leaders. And these women want to inspire you. One of the things we keep saying is, As we rise, we lift others. And that's our hope, because as you read it, you're going to say, Oh, I can do that. Lilly Ledbetter is quoted. She says, believe it, do it, and believe in yourself and it will happen. But she has some marvelous quotes. I think that everyone in the book is there to help us do better. So thank you for coming today. And Joanna, thank you for being here. Joanna Hardis: Thank you so much for allowing me to be here. It was so fun. Wonderful. Andi Simon: Bye bye now. Everybody have a great day. Bye.

Hear how to keep your seat at your own table that you build for yourself What I love about my guest today, Nori Jabba, is that when she hit a brick wall—in her case, a series of job rejections—she pivoted and wrote a book about the whole job-search process and dealing with mulltiple rejections, called Keeping Your Seat at the Table. Now she's writing a second book but actually she's not writing it, everybody else is writing it. It will be a compilation of other people's stories about their journeys and their seats at the table. Want to contribute? Contact Nori on her website keepingyourseat.com. Listen and learn how to build your own table. Watch and listen to our conversation here Nori's three things you need to build your own table 1. Forget about getting that seat or keeping that seat. It's really about keeping your own seat at your own table that you build for yourself. 2. You can't do it alone. You've got to lean on others. Think about who's at that table with you. Who's at your table? 3. Believe in yourself. It's really about believing in yourself and loving your voice, loving what you bring to the table and knowing that you add value How to connect with Nori You can find Nori on LinkedIn and her website, and you can send her an email at norijabba@gmail.com norijabba@gmail.com. To learn more about finding your purpose at work and in life, check these out: Podcast: Smita Joshi—We Are All Works In Progress! Think Of It Like Karma And Diamonds Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi, welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And my job is to get you off the brink. What I like to do is bring you interesting people who are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Why is that important? Because your brain hates me, it doesn't really want to see new things. It's got a story stuck in there that only sees what conforms to it. So today we have to take you exploring, becoming an anthropologist, begin to step outside yourself and look in a new way. So today I have Nori Jabba. Nori is a wonderful woman who's coming with a new book to talk about. The name of the book is Keeping Your Seat at the Table. She'll show you a copy of it in a moment. But Nori came to me through Kathryn Hall, who's a wonderful publicist, and I just enjoy the guests she brings to my podcast because they're all interesting people, men and women who are doing things exactly like we like to, in different ways. Nori, thank you for joining me today. Nori Jabba: Thank you, Andi. It's a pleasure to be here. Andi Simon: Nori, I have a desire to hear about your story. You told me about it and I stopped reading bios because I think they're helpful, but not necessarily capture the essence of who you are. But today is your story. So tell the listener or the viewer, who is Nori, what's your journey been like, and how does it set up the tale that has gotten us to keeping your seat at the table? Please tell us your story. Nori Jabba: So thank you, Andi, and it's wonderful to be here today. So my story really began when I took six years off to have children, and I'd had a very successful career before that at a utility company as a senior real estate portfolio manager. And I took six years off and had three kids, and I was lucky enough to get a job after six years and went back to work. And then in 2012, that project went on hold. So I decided to become a consultant and consulting was great. It gave me flexibility that I needed. And then after several years of consulting successfully in real estate development, I wanted to go back to work. I wanted to be on a team. I wanted the benefits and the structure that comes with being employed. And I'd had almost 30 years of experience. I'd won awards. I had a wonderfully professional resume and no one would hire me, no one. And so I decided after so many rejections or non-responses that I was going to stop job hunting and start my own company. I'm from Silicon Valley and we start companies. That's what we do. So I thought, no one will hire me, I'll do my own thing and write a book about it. And so that was the birth of the book. And I have a liberal arts background. I love that you're an anthropologist. I took a couple of anthropology courses in college and went to Grinnell College in Iowa and majored in English. So writing comes naturally to me. And so I started writing the book. I joined an incubator program here in Silicon Valley to help me boost the company and hopefully get some seed funding for it. And during that process, we spent a whole lot of time focusing on purpose and drive and making sure we had what it takes to start a company because it is not an easy endeavor. And through that process, I realized I don't really want to start a company, nor do I need to start a company. I want to be a writer. So that's when I stopped with the company, tabled the concept, if you will, and wrote the book, and it was through the journey of writing the book that I actually did get the job that I was looking for. But I like to say that I got my seat back at the table as well, because what I learned through the process is that the table and your seat at the table is much, much more than just a job and success. Andi Simon:Now, when you got the job back, was it in the same career or a different career? Nori Jabba: It was a slight pivot, so it was within the umbrella of community development, but it was in affordable housing, strictly. My background is in real estate development for commercial and residential, but not property management, not affordable housing. Specifically, I had worked on multiple affordable housing projects, but this was just affordable housing. So yeah, it was a pivot. And during the pandemic. Andi Simon: Well, the reason I asked is that in some ways we need a context for your own exploration in your own journey, and I love the fact that it was in urban and community development. You spend time abroad doing this. You're a very successful woman who also found a wall and jumped over the wall. You know, we can talk about glass ceilings, but sometimes brick walls, and we don't quite know what you do to do what? But in many ways, it's them who are trying to build their talent and begin to do something intentional. But why am I not a great fit for that talent? So as you finally moved along, we'll talk about the book in a moment. You got that job and share with us a little bit about the journey to get it, because I have a hunch you stopped selling it the way you used to and you found other ways of getting inside. What was the trick? Nori Jabba: So I wasn't looking anymore. I had resigned myself to just continuing consulting, to give myself time to write the book and research the book. So the book was really the driver. And by not needing the job, by not being desperate is not the right word. I wasn't as hungry. I had that self confidence that I was content and happy with what I was doing and I didn't need the job in order to be fulfilled, and I think that confidence comes through. You know, I was standing taller. I was feeling good about myself. I knew that I was adding value as a consultant, and it was one of my clients that hired me full time. And how I presented myself with that confidence I think is so important. So in my journey, I reached out to one of the managers of a company that rejected me. I came in second. I came in second so many times I can't even tell you. And I asked her, would you have coffee with me? I'm writing a book and I'd love to talk to you about this. And I couldn't believe she said yes, but she said yes. And I drove 60 miles to have coffee with this woman. And, you know, things happen for a reason, because if I had had to drive 60 miles every day to go to a job, it would have done me in any way. So in retrospect, I'm really glad I didn't get that job, but had a wonderful discussion with this woman who had never been asked, Why is it so hard for middle-aged women to get hired? And she fortunately was a middle-aged woman because otherwise I wouldn't have wanted to listen to her had she been in her 20s. But, one of the things she told me was so important and it is that women, older women and older men, too, sometimes stop listening. And when you talk about being a good fit in a company, a good fit means you're going to listen, and what was coming across in my job interviews was that I had lots of value to add, but that I wasn't going to receive. I wasn't going to listen. Maybe it did and it wasn't lost on me. The irony of the moment was because when she told me that I didn't want to listen to her, I slumped back in my chair and thought, I'm doing exactly what she says women my age do. So I sat up straight and leaned in and decided, I'm going to hear what she has to say. I'm really going to listen. And from then on, I became a better listener. And the other thing she told me that was so valuable was that older workers, and men and women are dismissive of younger workers, and the workplace is filled with young people and they have so much value to add. But if you go in there, “I have 30 years of experience, you got to listen to me, that's a stupid idea,” or whatever we say. We can be dismissive of these young people and the value that they add. So I have three daughters. I have from the time they were in preschool, I tried to listen and learn from them every day, something new and taught them to teach and listen to others. And I really feel like this woman told me to listen to young people. My kids teach me new things every day. But what's ironic now and such a wonderful part of this story is that I now have a new job. It's a better fit for me than the one that I got while writing the book. And my boss is decades younger than me. She could in fact be my daughter and I'm not sure I would have been able to accept that had I not done this, the journey and listen to this woman and others in the process of writing the book. So I embrace young people. I value them. My boss is so smart and I learn from her every day and it's a give and take. She learns from me, and I learn from her. But those two things that woman taught me really changed me. And I think it's a big part of why I got my seat back at the table, is being able to listen at work and embrace other young adults. Andi Simon: The listening part is very interesting because as you know, we have a story in our mind that guides what we hear. And the problem that you're articulating is that you crafted this story about who you were and what the skills were you brought and why you would be a good fit in that company as part of their talent acquisition. The problem was, you couldn't hear what they were saying because it was out of sync with what you were thinking, but they also couldn't hear what you were saying because the story you were telling about your accomplishments didn't fit exactly with their expectations or desires for what they were looking for in somebody who would be a comfortable fit in that team in some way. And I emphasize that because it wasn't what you did. It was how the story came across. Am I right? Nori Jabba: That's exactly right. Andi Simon: And listening and hearing are separate because you can try and listen. There's a quote by some admiral that goes something like this: What you think you heard me say, was it what I meant? And it wasn't what I said. I mean, because we just take the pieces apart, so it fits. But your book is a very interesting effort to talk about what you've learned to share with others and in the process to help amplify the message so they don't have as big a struggle to get a table as well as a seat at the table and to really begin to see what you went through in order to be transformed into a different woman. And I don't think your journey is going to end because I think the message is, it will change again and it will change again. So your insights and your wisdom are very important. Tell us how the book came together and what are some of the key themes so that the listener understands why they should buy it and read it, but also what they can learn from it, because I think it's really powerful. Nori Jabba: And so the book really came together as part of the journey. You know, one of the big messages of the book is that we think of success as this line going up. We get a degree or a diploma and there's a straight arrow up to your seat at the table and then you retire and have a pension or whatever. And what the book taught me, what I learned in the journey in writing it, is that it's the journey that's important. It's not the seat at the table. And so it's all about creating your own table of support, and your seat is just one seat at the table. But you need to create your own table with people that you invite to support you. And the idea is that you have one for each chapter in the book, and there are eight chapters, so eight, at least eight seats at the table. You can have the biggest table on the planet and continue to invite people. And these people are your mentors, your coaches. They don't even need to know that they have a seat. They just need to be important to you, people that influence you to get there. But the themes in the book are a play on words. I'm an English major. I love words. I love writing poetry, and I love playing with words. So at the beginning of each chapter, I summarize each chapter in exactly 100 words. And this is a method that I learned from a friend of mine, Grant Faulkner, who runs NaNoWriMo, which is National Novel Writing Month, but he also publishes a book called The 100 Word Story. And so everybody who contributes to the book each year does exactly 100 word stories. So it's a really fun process of thinking and summarizing. So in addition to the 100 word summary at the beginning of each chapter, each chapter is a play on words with the table. So chapter one is flipping the table, and that's identifying your purpose and distinguishing between purpose and legacy and what the difference is and why they're both important. Chapter two is clearing the table, and that's getting rid of everything that's holding you back. Clearing the clutter. Real clutter. In my case, it's real clutter because I can't get started when I'm surrounded by clutter. I've got to clean the house before I start writing or accomplishing whatever it is I want to do. But also what's holding you back, not believing in yourself. And that is a really, really important takeaway is, you have to believe in yourself and have that self confidence. The next chapter is reinforcing the table, and that's about building strength in body, mind and spirit. And you can't have a seat at the table if the table is going to tip over or isn't strong enough. So it's about strength. And the next one is sitting at the head of the table, and that's about feeling empowered and feeling just really confident and how to get that back and looking at how you show up and getting rid of that anxiety about, Did I say the right thing? Did I do the right thing? And I look, do I look right? It's all about how you show up and just feeling really good about yourself. The next one is not getting pulled under the table. And what I realized was that a big reason that I lost my seat at the table was because I had all of these things weighing so heavily in my life. And in my case, it was my aging parents, my mom in particular, and I was a consultant and I had a big client and I wasn't there for my client. I couldn't do it because I had to downsize my mom and move her in her time of crisis and literally drop everything. And that can happen if you're an employee. It's even harder because how much time can you take off to deal with that? But it's about facing the future, facing those fears and in my case, my mom and dealing with her. It was a volcano ready to erupt. I knew I was going to have to face it at some time and I just thought, oh, I'll deal with it when I get there. So this chapter is about planning and preparing, and it's also about aging and looking at ourselves as we age and doing it, figuring out a plan on how we want to age and how to get there gracefully and strongly. And the next is not tabling yourself. And that's about being relevant and listening, as I pointed out, and embracing young people. But in British English, because I used to live in England, it's also about tabling yourself straight away. They say it in the opposite way, so I cover that in the book in case it makes it to the UK, which I hope it does and leveraging what you bring to the table is the next chapter, and that's about owning your experience. So, as an older woman, I am taught to take those dates off my resume. Don't you dare let somebody know you graduated in the 1980s or 90s. I call BS on that. I say, You own it. You put your chin up and stand tall and you own it. But you have to do it with balance and vulnerability and a give and take. So that's what that chapter is about. And then the last one is leaning on the table. And I credit Sheryl Sandberg with Lean In. I read her book and have a side story on that because I had a client the next day that was expecting a proposal. I read Sheryl's book the night before, and as an experiment I took my price that I was going to submit and I doubled it because Cheryl told me to. And guess what? I thought the worst that can happen is they say no or we negotiate down like, Why don't I do this all the time? They said yes, they didn't even negotiate. So it was a really valuable experience in valuing myself. And not undervaluing myself. But my chapter here is about leaning on as well as leaning in because we can't do it alone. So it's about creating strategic partnerships at your table. And so that's the book and the final word is, once you've done all that, you get up on the table and dance. Andi Simon: The metaphor is very important, though. We have to see something. Remember, I started out by saying, I want you to see, feel and think about it before you can actually do it.  And when you listen to it, Nori, put your book up there so we can see the cover. Perfect. It's actually building a table that you're sitting on with a bunch of folks who are going to be your teammates at this table. I think that all of us trying to move into business or non-profits or communities are all navigating the challenges of rocky roads, trying to find our path. And I emphasize that because some people who are leaving to have children are going to have a rocky time as well. And those who are coming back aren't quite sure how to re-enter. And the companies aren't necessarily helpful on either stage, either giving you time for having kids and raising them or for thinking about how to prepare for the reentry. So you're ready for that reentry. And there's no reason why they can't align with you instead of abandoning you. You know, this is a really interesting piece to this or to help train you. I mean, you went through the self-discovery, sounds like through trial and error as opposed to having a mentor to begin with. And even a mentor wouldn't necessarily be cool. Nori Jabba: It was really about self-care because I was feeling my esteem slip and that's a slippery slope that is not going to help you get a job if you're not feeling good about yourself. So all of the rejections and non-responses would just be debilitating. So the book was really self-care to stop and try to understand what's really going on here. And I felt like I had this duty to myself and other women to really understand, is ageism real? Is it me? And the answer is yes, ageism is real, but it's also me. We also have to stand back and take a look at ourselves and what we really bring to the table and how we're presenting ourselves and listening and learning and being vulnerable. I love Brené Brown and the vulnerability book and her whole message about vulnerability is strength and you can't grow without being vulnerable. Andi Simon: Being in a consulting business myself, I've been in business for 22 years, and it's a different experience because I was in corporate for 20 years and I was a professor for ten years. And they are all different experiences, truly different. You know, they're like foreign countries to each other. And yet I knew I was an anthropologist. I wasn't doing it, and people weren't quite sure what that meant or how to capitalize on it. So they imposed upon me what they needed. And my job was to manufacture the right answers and solutions to solve it and to thrive. I was EVP of a bank, SVP of another bank and an executive in healthcare systems. But I'm thinking about your stories because I remember at one point I had that epiphany that it really wasn't about what I needed or did or how I could help. It was what they needed and how they saw me and where they put you at that table and what role they wanted you to play, including being the only woman at that table, which is a whole story unto itself. The ageism thing, though, is extremely important because we're living longer, growing older, and we're beginning to work ourselves with senior living communities and try to begin to see elders as older adults, not as seniors, but with tremendous growth potential for them. Why not, and why not do so with some real important changes coming? When you were a consultant, though, apart from the fact that you weren't necessarily happy, it sounds like you were very successful. Nori Jabba: I loved consulting. I really did. I just wanted to have the benefits and be on a team truly, because when I was a consultant, I would have clients and I was on a team, but I really wasn't. I was kind of the outsider and I missed that. I missed it. So I really wanted to have that camaraderie and go back to just having that everyday interaction with people. You know how it works when you're at work, you go to somebody's office or cubicle and you have a side chat about something and they teach you something about Excel that you had no idea about. As a consultant, you don't get those opportunities for those little bits of information and learning and connection. And so it was really about connection. And I had over 40 clients in my time as a consultant, and I still have the business. It's just dormant at the moment. But I really did like it. I just wanted to go back to I wanted more. I want to do well. I was tired of billing at the end of the month and spending my weekends doing the administration for the business. Andi Simon: I love what you said. On the other hand, when I left corporate, I was thrilled to launch my business. And I remember my PR firm that I hired. I said, I need a PR firm. Who am I? And they said, Well, you're a corporate anthropologist that helps companies change. And I said, that's exactly correct. And I haven't deviated from that at all in 22 years. But it was interesting that in some ways I had had enough of all of the complexity of the teamwork. You know, when you're an executive, I had thousands of people and HR was my least favorite area because it was so complicated all the time. But this is so interesting, Nori, as you look forward, as you're looking at your book and looking forward, you have some interesting ideas about how to engage people in their process of literal transformation. You want to share it with them because I think it's a great way to take a book and make it come alive. What are your thoughts? Nori Jabba: Yeah. So it's really for all ages, even though the book is geared towards middle aged women because that's what I am, it's really for men too. And want to point out that men play such an important part of my journey. The book is dedicated to my dad. When you read the book and you see the partners at my table and who's there, a lot of them are men, so it's by no means just a book by women for women about women. It's for men as well. And about men as well. But it's really about those eight steps. You know, it's really about finding your purpose and figuring out what it is. And it doesn't need to be the overall purpose of your reason you're on the planet. It can just be your purpose right now. And as you know, you change in life and your purpose is going to change and that's okay too. So if you can't figure out your overarching purpose, I say pick a purpose that works for you right now. So it's those eight steps of stepping back, building your confidence, being strong, figuring out how to stay strong for the rest of your life, embracing young and old and being relevant. You know, don't be that person, that woman, that man that said, how many times have I been in a meeting where some older person has said, I'm too old for that. I'm too old to learn that, I need a young person to do it. You know, it's great that we embrace the young people to do it, but in my book, I really stress how important it is to learn those new skills and technologies or you're going to be left behind. And this is important for life skills, not just keeping your seat at the table at work or just to be relevant in your job. The world is changing so fast with AI and technology that if you don't keep up, you will be left behind. You know, my mom is in her late 80s now and she has a smartphone and so many seniors just can't figure out how to use them. But I'm proud of my mom because she not only has a smartphone, she uses WhatsApp because WhatsApp is the best way to keep in touch with my twin sister who lives in Europe. And texting doesn't work because you have to pay overseas costs and all of that. So we had to teach my mom how to use this app and she does it every day. So just keeping those skills up and not being afraid of learning the new technologies is so important and just staying relevant and empowering yourself and leaning on others and having those partnerships. So it's really quite simple as those eight steps. And it applies to everybody at any age. Andi Simon: I think this is wonderful, not a how-to book, but a “what I learned and want to share with you” book and I think the insights are relevant and timely. And regardless of what your age is, I do think that it is a journey and you need to be reflective about where I am, where I'm going? And also the fact that you got to keep growing. You need a growth mindset. You can't get fixed and you don't need an excuse. So it's very, very powerful. What I wanted to talk about a little bit is what can other people do? You had mentioned they can write their stories. They can begin to explore. I love it when people send me their stories for my book or my blogs. They want to share them. What are you thinking about? Nori Jabba: So I am writing a second book and actually I'm not writing it. Everybody else is writing it. I'm compiling a second book, which is other people's stories about their journeys and their seats at the table. So I invite your listeners to go to my website, which is keepingyourseat.com and submit your story, or just contact me. We can have coffee, you can have a Zoom call. I want to hear your story because so many people have been through this and it's so valuable to share our journeys. Andi Simon: Well, I love that because this is a collaboration now. And what you're going to find is that you are not alone. They are not either. And then the next book comes out as a joint effort of all of us to help each other celebrate our insights, our wisdoms, and where we're going and how it can be really help you propel yourself in difficult times because nobody was there to say to you, you don't have to be so structured, so frustrated. You know, you're not the first person, but this is how you might get around it. Nori Jabba: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I heard when I interviewed one woman who ran this organization called Nova Works, she told me that the average woman of age 50 has to submit 500 resumes before they land a job. 500. And don't know if that's an actual corroborated number, but it was enough to scare me. I'd probably submitted 150 and was completely debilitated. And she just kind of patted me on the shoulder and said, Honey, you have a long way to go, and that's just not okay with me. So that is just not acceptable. So I thought, we've got to change this. And so the book is a movement to try to change that. And I do think that HR directors and HR teams really need to focus on ageism and what they can do to be more inclusive and set some policies because ageism is alive and well and yes, we can do something on our part, but we also need corporations to embrace aging as well, and make it a positive, not a negative. It's like, you know, having children is a negative. Why is it a negative? Don't we want to build a healthy, happy next generation? Andi Simon: We're just about ready to wrap this up. 1 or 2 things you want to make sure that the listeners remember and the viewers can recall. And, you know, what's your last thoughts to share? Nori Jabba: So three things you need to build your own table. Forget about getting that seat or keeping that seat. It's really about keeping your own seat at your own table that you build for yourself. Two: You can't do it alone. You've got to lean on others. And so think about who's at that table with you. Who's at your table? I even have a mug that says, Who's at your table? And then three: believe in yourself. It's really about believing in yourself and loving your voice, loving what you bring to the table and knowing that you add value. And share your story with me. Go to keepingyourseat.com, please. I want to hear from you. And my book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble as well. Andi Simon: Nori, it has been a pleasure talking to you. I will share with our listeners and our viewers the book, and this is a very exciting time for new books. Our book is called Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. I wrote it with Edie Fraser and Robyn Spizman, two extraordinary women. And I love sharing it because, like Nori, what I want to do is take these wisdoms and make them accessible to you to amplify the voices of these women, as well as to show you the path for you. So, Nori, as soon as it comes out in September, I'll make sure you have a copy. I can't wait. Nori Jabba: I can't wait to read it. Andi Simon: This is a beautiful book and I love Maria Carluccio's quote. She has seven children and runs a $1 billion company and does some fabulous things. Some of the quotes are wonderful. Christie Hefner's in there and Lilly Ledbetter. I love Susan Healy, being at the top doesn't mean having all the answers. It's learning how to get those answers. And in some ways, your story is a bunch of wonderful stories just like that. So our book comes out September 26th. Pre-orders are available now. But it is time for us to share our exploration book of writing. I love your idea of 100 words capturing the essence of it. It's a really terrific story. I know for all of you who came today to join us, thank you. Share our stories with your friends and begin to tell us about what more you'd like. I get great emails from across the globe who love the podcast. Remember, we're in the top 5% of podcasts globally, and that is no small feat because that's because everybody who's on it shares it and likes to listen. And I love to hear from you. So with that in mind, I am going to wish you a wonderful day. Nori, thank you so much for joining me. Nori Jabba: Thank you, Andi. Andi Simon: Goodbye now.

Learn how you can fight gender bias so women leaders can succeed  As you know, I do a lot of work around women leadership. The title of my second book is Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, and I have recently co-written with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman a third book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, due out September 26th. So I'm all about helping women in business succeed. My guest today, Jennifer McCollum, is the same, having dedicated the last 20 years of her career to helping leaders and teams and organizations fulfill their potential, particularly women leaders. She helps women find their passion and their purpose, and I'm thrilled to have her on today's podcast. Her mission is to change the face of leadership by accelerating the advancement of women leaders. Mine too. Listen in, learn, and please share. Watch and listen to our conversation here Nine key takeaways from our discussion today 1. Clarity is much more challenging for women than it is for men. It's one of the biggest hurdles that women face. And by clarity, I mean, if I were to ask you, Look ahead one year, three years, five years…what does success look like for you in your life, in your role, in your environment? 2. Women tend to define success through the lens of others: my team's success, my company's success, my family's success. As a woman, you need to develop the skill of creating clarity for you, your own future. 3. Jennifer's new book, In Her Own Voice: A Woman's Rise to CEO: Overcoming Hurdles to Change the Face of Leadership, takes 25 years of Linkage data and research and calculates what it will take to accelerate the advancement of women in terms of the unique challenges that women face on their path to leadership and how we can all support approaching gender equity in the workforce. 4. Gender bias has been internalized, so much so that we women may be preventing our own advancement, consciously or unconsciously. 5. We know that women and men ask for things equally. It could be money or title, but it also could be resources or flexibility or staff. But women tend to retreat when they're told no. And we can learn a lot from our male counterparts who tend to go back in. So how do you make the ask, when do you make the ask? 6. All leaders need to be developed, but women need to understand the unique hurdles they face. We don't need to fix the women. They're fabulous leaders. We need to help them in overcoming the obstacles that exist to their advancement. 7. At the CEO level, we've just crossed the 10% barrier in terms of the number of CEOs who are women. But of those, only 1% are women of color. 8. The numbers still aren't changing quickly enough. We have about 28% women in the executive leadership ranks and 26% in the leadership ranks, the VP level. But as you go down, director all the way to the manager level, we're just not making enough progress at all. 9. All of us can do something. All of us may not be in positions of power and influence to be executive sponsors but all of us are in a position to be allies. How to connect with Jennifer You can reach out to Jennifer on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or the Linkage website, or send her an email at jenniferscherermccollum@gmail.com. For a deeper dive into women and leadership, check out these 3 blogs:  Blog: What Can Women Do To Challenge Gender Stereotypes In The C-Suite? Blog: How Can Women Overcome The Roadblocks To Building Their Businesses? Blog: Best Tips And Tricks For Women To Work In Male-Dominated Industries Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi, welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, I'm your host and your guide. And as you know, my favorite listeners, our job is to help you get off the brink. How do we do that? We want you to see, feel and think in new ways and understand that change is painful. On the other hand, if you begin to get the kinds of tips and tricks to begin to see things in a new way, you go, Oh, that's how it's done. That's how someone else did it. And I can as well. So I have a wonderful guest with us today, Jennifer McCollum. Jennifer and I met through the Women Business Collaborative, and it's a wonderful organization for women of all kinds and all companies to come and participate as we collaborate to propel women forward. But Jennifer is here today because I just love what she's doing to help train and develop women so that they can become the best that they can be. So, Jennifer, thank you for being here today. I appreciate it. Now, let me tell you about Jennifer and then she's going to tell you about herself. And as you know, in our format, she does a much better job than I can. But here's Jennifer. Jennifer grew up in an entrepreneurial home in Germany. And there's a story there, I'm sure. And her unique childhood not only instilled in her grit and resourcefulness and an ironclad work ethic, but she describes herself as a hustler by 15 and a desire to help others, which I think is the important part here, to excel like she has to her full potential. You know, someone in our past offers us an opportunity to do something in our future, and sometimes we're not aware of it, but all of a sudden we go, Oh, I did that. Someone else can do a little bit more. She's on a mission to help talented women rise higher and higher in positions of leadership. And on the other side of that, to help organizations understand how to enable them to do just that, to create the cultures where women can excel, thrive and together, men and women can really do better. The winding road she's traveled led to her current position as CEO of Linkage. Linkage is now part of the SHRM organization (Society for Human Resource Management) and together they have visions for how to take Linkage, quite frankly, to a new place. It's really going to be exciting. She oversees the strategic direction and global operations of the leadership development firm. The mission is to change the face of leadership. It's dedicated more than 35 years to advancing women and accelerating inclusion in leaders and organizations. Jennifer is an acclaimed speaker, a consultant and author, and I love the fact that her book is coming out in November. So we're going to time this so that you can see it. She's going to show you a picture of it in her own voice. It's got a really interesting story to it. And it's a very important time for her to share where she is. And that's what this whole podcast today is about. My last little thought, because I sometimes forget this myself, she's a wonderful mother of three children, all guys. And I say guys because they're sort of grown up children and I have a happy husband and they love to travel. She loves to ski. And Jennifer and I have a lot in common. So today's talk is going to be very collaborative. Jennifer, thank you for coming today. Jennifer McCollum: It's always very humbling to have someone else talk about you and introduce you. So I appreciate you. Andi Simon: Well, you know, sometimes you say, Who is that she's talking about and laugh sometimes because we haven't heard of ourselves. It's hard to get a mirror that looks at you and says, Oh, that's who I am. Jennifer, it's important for the audience to know more about you. That bio is lovely, but at the end of the day, who is Jennifer? Tell us about your journey and then how do we get to the next stage where you're helping women? All kinds of different ways. Please, who's Jennifer? Jennifer McCollum: That's such a big question. I have dedicated the last 20 years of my career to helping leaders and teams and organizations fulfill their potential. And there's been a really special place in my purpose and my passion around helping women leaders. So even back, you know, 30 years ago, I was creating pro bono visioning webinars to help women leaders find their passion and find their purpose and as luck would have it, I ended up five years ago as the CEO of Linkage. And as you said, our mission is to change the face of leadership. A big chunk of our work is focused on accelerating the advancement of women leaders, but also helping all leaders become more inclusive and purposeful. I can take you back a little bit further. I have 20, 22, 23 years in the leadership space. I run leadership businesses at publicly traded companies. Now, at Linkage, which was just sold to a wonderful organization called SHRM. Before that, I grew up at the Coca-Cola Company and traveled around the world working on the Olympics and the World Cups and sports marketing. And then I evolved my career into leadership at the Coca-Cola Company and beyond. Andi Simon: People often ask about our own journeys. You know, I'm an anthropologist, but I'm also an entrepreneur, and I was a corporate executive. How do you know where you're going? Early in those years, are we sampling? Have I found myself? People talk about imposter syndrome. As I said, I've always been an imposter. I was never quite sure I was competent or capable. Others saw me that way and I said, Oh, that's interesting. How about yourself? Was there a plan to your journey or did you just sort of make it happen? Jennifer McCollum: I love your use of the word sampling. I would even expand that into dabbling. So, you know, this was advice that was given to me early on in my career and if it's helpful to others, this was a senior executive at Coca-Cola who said, “In your 20s, try a lot of things. Don't worry about money, don't worry about titles. Try and get a sense of what you're good at and what you're passionate about.” So through my 20s, yes, I started in public relations and sports marketing and evolved into public affairs, but I knew in my 20s, somewhere around 26 or 28, that I was good at it, but it wasn't fueling my passion or my purpose. So then the executive said, “Okay, in your 30s, really double down and take a lot of risks and figure out where you can apply your skills and your passion.” And it was in my 30s that I jumped ship from Coca-Cola to the world of the internet. And it was part of the first internet kind of boom and bust. And that gave me the confidence to then create my own consulting firm. And so I became a consultant in the leadership space. Coca-Cola had trained me to do that, and that's where I really started to find what drove me. And so I was working with leaders and teams all around the world, but really buoyed by Coca-Cola's belief in me, and that was my launchpad to becoming a consultant in the leadership space. And then the executive said, “In your 40s, put your head down and work really hard. Make a lot of money so you can retire in your 50s.” What that meant to me was actually doubling down on what my passion was. So throughout my 40s, I went back to the publicly traded world. I worked for multiple companies, running businesses and the leadership development space, and really then found that it actually wasn't the designing and the delivering of the consulting as much as the management and the growing of the businesses designed to make the world's leaders a better place. And I have to say, now in my 50s, it's a beautiful decade to be. I feel so aligned to that purpose. Andi Simon: Well, and part of what you're sharing is that we can plan, but part of it is knowing ourselves. And I don't think that's inconsequential. It's not the job. It's really getting to know what makes us. You know, the good news is, you were very successful regardless of which of those jobs you were in. But now the question is, what's my purpose? You know, what have I mastered? And how do I have the autonomy to go and do that in a way that gives me great pleasure. And I smile when I wake up every day. It's pretty cool. Jennifer McCollum: And you're hitting something really important, and I'll call that clarity. And sometimes that's the discovery of purpose, discovery of strength, discovery of passion. Some of us are lucky enough to grow up knowing exactly what we want to do, exactly the contribution we want to make in the world. That actually isn't the case for most of us. And there's this process and this is actually much more challenging for women than it is for men. It's one of the biggest hurdles that women face. And by clarity, we mean, if I were to ask you, Look ahead one year, three years, five years…what does success look like for you in your life, in your role, in your environment? Women tend to define that through the lens of others: my team's success, my company's success, my family's success. And so that we call it the kind of the skill, the muscle of creating clarity for you, for your own future is something that I've worked really hard at from my 20s, which gave me the confidence to leave Coca-Cola all the way now into my 50s. And I do it very regularly. Andi Simon: That point of clarity is so interesting because I always knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I spent 20 years in corporate in a very entrepreneurial fashion, and nobody quite knew what an anthropologist in business was supposed to do so I could play that one out all the time. And you found that people weren't quite sure if I should have a PhD or not. But I began to think that I knew I wanted to be in my own business and after 9/11, I said, good timing. So that's 22 years ago. But like you, I knew who I was. I'm a creator, I'm an entrepreneur now. How do I do that in a way that can be very successful? And I always thought of it for our clients being the beneficiaries of who we are and what we can do. So that's what we do, then what they need. So it's a really interesting story. You share now that you're at a point that your book is very much of a cataclysmic moment. You know, it's important. Books are important. You know, my third book is coming out in September. And every time I write a book, it's less about the book than about what it can do to help others. And I have a hunch this new book is very full of wisdom that you want to share. And I would just love you to tell the story to our listeners about it because they will walk away saying, Oh, I gotta get that book. Tell me what's in the book. Jennifer McCollum: Well, and thank you for asking, and going back to the clarity. If you look back on the vision documents that I created all the way back into the early 2000s, it always says, I am an author, I am a speaker, I am on stages impacting thousands. And it is now finally the result of a lot of hard work and you've done multiple of these. This is my first book. This is the executive summary, In Her Own Voice: A Woman's Rise to CEO: Overcoming Hurdles to Change the Face of Leadership. It's actually coming out in November, so anyone can pre-order it. But what I am so excited about for this book is, it takes 25 years of Linkage data and research and frameworks and experience on what it will take to accelerate the advancement of women. It puts it together with very personal stories, not only my stories, but other CEO and C-suite women, to help all of us, women and men, understand what are the unique challenges that women face on their path to leadership and how we can all support approaching gender equity in the workforce far faster than the World Economic Forum is predicting, somewhere around the 125 year mark. Andi Simon: Well, 125 years is almost impossible to imagine since you and I want it to happen tomorrow. My question is always about why it's so hard to see the opportunities. And it's two sides. Part of it is the way women see themselves in others. And part of it is the way our society and our culture see men and women and their different roles. In the book, though, you've really begun to master to lay this out. Talk to me a little bit without giving away too much about the thinking behind it In Her Own Voice. The title itself is telling you a great deal, right? Jennifer McCollum: So you framed it perfectly. There's really two sides to this. One is what we have more control over as women leaders. So deepening our understanding not of the external bias that exists in the world. And we could talk a lot about that another time. And it's real, but it's really how that bias has been internalized and how we may be preventing our own advancement, consciously or unconsciously. So just to give you a little sneak preview, Linkage has studied and we support it through coaching and assessment and development and our big Women in Leadership Conference. We support the individual woman leader and overcoming some of those hurdles. The top three are clarity, which is what we just talked about. The second one is proving your value, where women tend to give and say yes and volunteer to more and more and more. And we call it putting your head down and overthrowing the boat, hoping that someone will notice and they usually don't. And then the third one is making the ask. So we actually know that women and men ask for things equally. It could be money or title, but it also could be resources or flexibility or staff. But we know that women tend to retreat when they're told no. And we can learn a lot from our male counterparts who tend to go back in. So how do you make the ask, when do you make the ask? So those are three of the seven or eight hurdles that we cover. The other side of this, which I love that you framed it this way, is what can organizations do? We actually call that the organizational surround. And we study these things. We know that there are very specific levers organizations need to pull. The first is around their culture. Do women feel valued? Do they feel like they belong? The second one is around their talent systems. Is there equity in the talent systems, all the way from acquisition to pay to high potential selection to succession? The third one is what we call executive action and commitment. This is one of the lowest scoring ones and this is, are the executives truly committed to advancing women leaders? Are they doing more than saying the right things? Are they actually doing and modeling and sponsoring women or other underrepresented populations? And then the fourth one is the one that Linkage does a lot of work in, and that's leadership development for women. So again, we know that, you know, all leaders need to be developed, but women need to understand the unique hurdles they face and they need some, you know…we don't need to fix the women. They're fabulous leaders. We need to help them in overcoming the obstacles that exist to their advancement. Andi Simon: You know, as an anthropologist and I also have three leadership academies for three different kinds of organizations, the questions are very profound and very important to me in the work that we do, as well as to my emerging leaders who are trying to understand all this. But I often find that people don't know what to do. They say the words, they have good intentions, but then when the time comes for action, they go back to old habits. And we know so much about the neurosciences and the brain and the cognitive sciences, that the habits are very comfortable. And so they go to whatever they learned early, whatever happened to them that seemed to work okay. And the idea of moving out into a foreign place where they're uncomfortable, the amygdala hijacks the whole idea and says, That's dangerous, go away. And so part of the work that we do is almost like theatrical performance. I said, We're going to change. You used to play Macbeth, and I share this with you because the metaphor seems to be comfortable for people to get. And now you're going to play Hamlet. And in Hamlet, the women get promoted and they get advanced. But you don't have a script for it and you haven't had any rehearsal time. And both of you need to play a different role in a different theater. That is life. And I share that with you because what I realized without rehearsal time, they don't practice. They don't know what it is they're going to do. Have you found the same or do you have a different perspective on it? Jennifer McCollum: Well, interestingly, I would actually use that kind of frame on both sides. So first, let's talk about the women themselves. And yes, what is comfortable we can extract you from your workplace. We can develop and coach and assess and send you to very inspirational conferences and you will go back into the workplace if left to your own devices. It's scary. It's uncomfortable. How do you start to flex that new muscle? And so in our very best, you know, clients and the very best scenarios, women are doing this through community, so they're not doing it alone. And we will have, and I'll give a big shout out to Disney as an example. Disney will send 100 to 150 women to our conference across their business units, but they bring them together and then they find ways to keep them together in communities so they're supporting each other. Andi Simon: Before you go on to the second, let me emphasize to the viewer or the listener that we're monkeys. We model ourselves over watching others. And so that community isn't inconsequential. Because if I think, This is what they want me to do and I don't see anyone else doing it, I flee it. But if I watch someone else doing it, I can model it and bond over it. So those communities aren't inconsequential. They're essential. Does that make it consistent with what you're saying? Jennifer McCollum: I'll go to my second point in a minute, but just based on that, I want to give you a really specific example this weekend. So it was the 4th of July weekend. I'm part of the Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coaches Organization. It means the world to me to be part of this. There were a couple hundred people in the group. About 150 of us gathered in Nashville just a few days ago. And this group is full of authors, thought leaders, academics, CEOs, coaches.  It's an incredibly inspiring group. Three quarters of the group are like you. They have published book after book and they're very confident as authors and thought leaders. So I showed up at this event. I have a box of 200 of these and my literary agent has said, You will ensure that this gets in the hands of every one of that network. I got there and I realized something was going on with me. I'm incredibly confident as a CEO. I'm confident as a team leader and manager and mentor. I'm confident as a mother, a wife and a friend. I took that box. We call these things monographs, and I hid them behind the piano at the Belmont Auditorium in Nashville, this beautiful auditorium. And the monographs are hidden in a box. And I would take one out at a time and would kind of sheepishly show one person at a time. And finally, it took a group. There happened to be this group of women that were surrounding me. And they said, Well, where can I get one of these? And said, Well, they're in a box behind the piano. And they said, What is wrong with you? Here you are a thought leader, an author, and you're hiding your gifts behind the piano. And it hit me that I needed that monkey tribe, right? I needed a community to help build my confidence. And it was such a big lesson for me. I was trying something new. I'm flexing a new muscle. Okay, so that's that story. Well, that's not going to go to the second piece. Andi Simon: Don't lose that story because for the viewer or the listener, those are the kinds of stories that will change the way you think about what you're doing. And when you go to that meeting, you're going to hand out business cards. And I've heard people say, I've left the meeting because I didn't feel comfortable. I said, Push, go in there, hand out those cards. Be real. Next point. Jennifer McCollum: So well, and actually, just to finish that, on that point, when this is a huge problem with women, we call it recognized confidence.  And it's another one of the hurdles. Look, you mentioned imposter syndrome just a little while ago when we were getting ready for this call. We know you can't beat confidence into anyone. You also can't beat imposter syndrome out of someone. But here's what you can do. You can develop the skills to promote yourself like I was trying to do over the last couple of days. But if you don't feel ready to do that, I wasn't ready to self-promote as an author. I phoned a friend and this is what women can do a lot better. Surround yourself with people, women or men who will help hand out that card. What happened was, they started grabbing 10 and 20 and were handing them out for me. And the response I got from people overwhelmingly helped me build that confidence. So that's kind of another tip and trick to phone a friend. You don't have to do it on your own. This was okay. Well, what if, you know, we invest in companies? Do they invest all the time in their women leaders? And those women leaders come back full of hope and confidence and optimism, but their companies don't change. Their manager doesn't understand what they've been through. They don't get access to that stretch assignment. The talent systems don't change. The executives don't really act on what they've learned or what they've invested in. And this is one of the biggest challenges. And I'll tell you another story. And he's one of my favorite ones, Tom Greco, who has up until recently been the CEO of Advanced Auto, a big client of ours. I was on a webinar with him about a year ago when they launched their Women in Leadership program, and he said, “As the CEO, I will tell you, our leadership does not represent our customer base. We need more women. We need more people of color. And I have done this before when I worked for Frito-Lay and Pepsi, and I am going to commit to this and I will become a sponsor. My direct reports, their direct reports. By the way, there are 2025 of us and we are overwhelmingly white men. And that is going to change on my watch.” So that's an example of executive commitment in action, and that's what companies need to do. What do they need to do proactively to change their culture, proactively to change their talent systems. And we help with that as well. Andi Simon: And I'll add one more dimension because I've had to work with boards who are also the white guys. And even if the executives were advocating, they always often rolled their eyes as if this was a sidebar, not the bar. And conversations at board meetings weren't about…I can't tell you how many times I was the only woman on that board and or at a board meeting where there were 49 men and just me. We didn't say very much. And people said to me, That sounds like a joke, depending on what time in our evolution it was. But the point is that there are different barriers along the way to transformation. And to your point, if the leadership really commits to it, now the question is, How do the the men, the women and the leadership begin to see a different reality, almost a different visual of the whole world that we're living in with a whole different interactions and training each other to talk to each other? It's like a foreign language coming together. Jennifer McCollum: And I'm glad you mentioned the board level there. I mean, as you and I both know, being very deeply entrenched in the Women's Business Collaborative where we are making the most progress is that the board level now, it's not as fast as we would like, but we are making more progress there than anywhere else. At the CEO level, we've just crossed the 10% barrier in terms of the number of CEOs who are women. You know, only 1% are women of color. So we can talk about that separately where we tend to focus as we move down in the pipeline. The numbers still aren't changing quickly enough. So we've got about 28% women in what I'll call the executive leadership ranks and 26% in the leadership ranks, kind of the VP level. And then as you go down, director all the way to the manager level, we're just not making enough progress at all. And so it takes a couple of things. One, we can't wait for CEOs or boards to become enlightened all at once. We've got to focus on this from many different lenses. And one thing I love, especially because I know your listeners are a very broad range across gender, across role, across age and across experience. All of us can do something. And I talk a lot about this spectrum, from allyship to mentorship to coaching, all the way up to executive sponsorship. All of us may not be in positions of power and influence to be executive sponsors. All of us are in a position to be allies. In fact, that's what happened to me this weekend. The people who surrounded me said, Look, phone a friend, I'm going to help you. They were all my allies and it was a really beautiful thing. Andi Simon: Well, but your story is a very powerful one as well, because in some ways you weren't sure how to ask for their support, but they saw an opportunity to reach out and help someone who wasn't mentoring, wasn't sponsoring, it was collegiality, in a very sorority-like fashion. But I have a hunch that the guys began to catch on to some of this as well. And I do think that there is a desire to do better. Do you have any of the data to share on why the diverse, inclusive companies do better and why that's so hard to get people to pay attention to? Jennifer McCollum: Even have an anecdote. The data is so clear. Andi, you and I have seen all the various studies around when you have diversity. We can talk about gender diversity. We can talk about racial diversity. Those were where most of the studies sit. But whether it's at the board level, at the C-suite level or at the leadership level, whether it's financial metrics like revenue and margin or whether it's operational metrics like more effective decision making and better innovation, or whether it's internal metrics like engagement and retention. By and large, gender diversity and racial diversity, by every single count, it's better. So here's my favorite story. Dr. Tanya Matthews is the CEO of the International African American Museum. It's just opening now in Charleston. So if you're in the Charleston area, run to that museum. And about two years ago, we were thinking about writing this book. And in all of my presentations, I was leading with a lot of the data. And I finally just got fed up and said, Dr. Tanya, I don't understand why it's just so mind blowing that the data is so clear and any rational leader in a position of power to hire or promote diversity, why don't they just do it? And she said, and I quote, “Girl, if it were all about the numbers, we would have solved this problem a long time ago.” I can hear her saying that. I love her so much. And she said, “The forces for change have to be more powerful than the forces for the status quo.” That is true, that it's not going to be numbers and data. It's going to be appealing to the head and the heart, appealing to the emotion of fathers with daughters saying, I want something different for my daughter. I want to make sure that if she wants to be a CEO, she has a better chance than 10% of the Fortune 500. Or It's the Tom Grecos of the world. “I need my staff to be reflective of my customer base.” And that's not everybody that's ready and aware. But that's where our starting point is at Linkage. We choose the clients who have, that awareness in that readiness. Andi Simon: Well, and that's a good point to try to work with a client who hasn't come to their own aha moment or the realization of it is very difficult because you're going to be pushing this ball up the hill. But your point about the data shouldn't be underestimated because as an anthropologist, we learned early that out of context data do not exist. And I used to teach a course “Is your data talking to you and can you hear it?” And it's the hearing part, because you'll take that data and manipulate it to do anything you like with it, including ignoring it. You know, doctors love to delete the data that don't conform to the way they like to do things. Learned that early on. But to your point, the data is very compelling and whether it's your KPIs or whatever else you're looking to achieve as a leader, make sure that you've got alignment around that with the right people who can get you there, as opposed to pointing fingers, complain and blame and find all kinds of excuses because often the resources are there and the gap is not that you don't have the resources, it's that you're not using them wisely. And to your point, then that requires a different mindset, a different set of values. And my last point before I go back to you is that we decide what the heart and the eyes, and that's extremely important. The data is in the head. I've got to see it. So storytelling with the data is not inconsequential. What does this tell you? Jennifer McCollum: I guess the other thing I'd say is, what are you tracking? We spend a lot of time with our clients who say, We're tracking our talent acquisition. We're tracking our diversity metrics and we're tracking our retention. And, you know, we just say, You know what, that's great. Those are all leading indicators. You've got to get ahead and start tracking the leading indicators. So when McKinsey a year ago reported that there's a huge issue at the director level, so for every one woman who is promoted, two women leave. At Linkage, we weren't surprised by that at all because we've been tracking. We've got about 20,000 women in our database and with our Women in Leadership Institute every year, we're gathering thousands and thousands of women's perceptions around their organization. So we're actually at a macro level looking at what do they feel, what do they think about their culture, their talent systems, their executive action and their leadership development as a woman, But also what is their commitment, their engagement, their values fit and their net promoter score? And by every count, especially the Net Promoter score, that director level was a zero, which basically meant, Don't believe anything. They didn't care at all to promote that their company was a great place to work for women, and their commitment was less than 50% which said, if I'm offered another job that is similar to yours, I'm out of here. McKinsey's The Great Breakup is grounded in, unfortunately good data, bad experiences. “I see what's happening. I'm not stupid. I'm out of here. And I'd rather go, being, you know, a success in my own business.” You were or I am. And not to fuss around with this other system that's evaluating us in a way that I can't get ahead. So I often say, Look, we know, and this is super interesting. I mean, you may remember, many more women lost their jobs during Covid than men. And there was this big concern across 2020 and 2021 that women in the workforce were the lowest that they'd been since the 1980s. And there was this thought that, Oh, my gosh, this is going to not only delay gender equity by a decade, which is what the World Economic Forum came up with, but how long is it going to take us to get back to above where we were with women in the workforce in the 80s? It only took two years. The women all came back to the workforce. But it's not that women are leaving the workforce, it's that they're leaving you. They're leaving your organization. And so, our question to the organization is, Look, if you're having trouble retaining women and attracting women, that's on you. Why is that? Let us help you figure that out. Andi Simon: Oh, I could tell you many stories. I'm not going to share them for now. We are just about ready to wrap up. You and I could talk for much longer about an issue of great importance to both of us, mostly because we both have lived our ways through this, personally and professionally, and we have a bigger purpose, which is to help others and their organizations really understand the richness that comes with diversity of all kinds: cognitive diversity and challenging ideas, beginning to see curiosity, all kinds of things that will open up possibilities for them. I enjoyed this tremendously. Jennifer, one or two things you'd like to end with so that folks can remember the wisdom that you've brought today. Jennifer McCollum: I'm happy to offer a few things. I'm at a really interesting, pivotal point in my career with the book coming out. And as we integrate Linkage into SHRM, it's kind of like landing the plane on a five year journey. And I always think these are really important inflection points in life. So I'll leave with two things that are really helpful for me. If they're helpful for your listeners, I hope so. Number one is, grab the opportunity when you see it. And this takes tremendous courage. And I'll go back to my first leadership role in a publicly traded company when I was running a business unit and my peers left and I saw the opportunity to run a much bigger part of the organization. And just as my boss was saying, we need to get your peer replaced. I went in and said, I don't want him replaced. I want to run it. And so I'm now thinking about what that looked like at this stage in my career? So that's the first thing. And the second thing that goes along with that is, don't move quickly until you have that clarity. And I can tell a lot of stories about how I jumped reactively a little bit earlier, just even five years ago in my career and made a mistake because I wasn't clear about what I wanted. So you're the entrepreneur. I'd worked at multiple publicly traded companies and I landed in that sweet spot of the private equity-backed small to mid-market company. And that was my landing place, but only because I gained clarity. So I will offer up those two things. And finally, if you are a woman who aspires to advance in her career, or a man or woman who aspires to support the women leaders in your life, please, please, please consider In Her Own Voice. It launches November 13th, but it's on pre-order on Amazon now. Andi Simon: And I know Amazon awaits you with joy, as does Jennifer. Jennifer, this has been joyful. If they would like to talk to you further, is there a best place where they can reach you? LinkedIn or someplace else? Jennifer McCollum: Absolutely. So Jennifer McCollum, Linkage CEO, a SHRM company. I am available on LinkedIn. And you can also go to our website at Linkageinc.com. And Simon: And as you can tell, Jennifer is a wonderful mentor, sponsor, colleague, idea person. And sometimes you just want to use her time very wisely. But also the book is full of her thinking that will help you as you begin to pursue your own career. And there is no straight line. The one thing you should understand is that while you may think there's a goal at the end here, there's really a path that takes you there. And the path is as much fun when you look back on it and as it is to be certain. Humans want certainty. It doesn't work that way. So I want to thank all of you who come to our podcasts and who who put us above the 5% globally of all podcasts, which is really an honor. We enjoy sharing with you and our book, Women Mean Business, comes out September 26th. It is a compilation of 102 women who share their wisdom with you. And if you think of the two books as a collage, you're going to have lots of interesting points of insight, and they always say, turn a page and change your life. That's what we're all about. How do we help you become the best that you can be? My other books are available on Amazon: On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is about anthropology and how it can help your business. And Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is about women who smashed the myths of women in business. We keep wanting to help you change. And so today I will say goodbye with great joy. Jennifer, thank you for joining me. It's been fun and I love your conversations. We'll be back. Bye bye now.

Hear how pure contentment is available to all of us, right now Believe it or not, we're approaching our 400th podcast. Along the way, I've talked with some amazing people: business leaders, entrepreneurs, futurists, anthropologists (like myself), Blue Ocean Strategists® (again, like myself), and on and on. They've all been extraordinary, but sometimes I've interviewed someone who really made me think and feel in a new, deeper way. One such person is my guest today, Smita Joshi. Born in India and raised in the UK, Smita will challenge you to think about your life's purpose and what you want to accomplish. She talks about pure awareness, which the ancient Indians called Ātman, and how to experience contentment no matter where you are in life. I dare you to listen to this podcast and not come away unchanged. Watch and listen to our conversation here What is your life purpose? Throughout our conversation, Smita talks about someting that is crucial to each one of us: what do we want to accomplish in this life? And what is the deeper purpose of all of us as human beings? She addresses these questions in her book trilogy, Karma and Diamonds, and also in her work as a yoga teacher and executive coach. Her goal is connect people to pure awareness, or total consciousness, called Ātman, and she has created useful tools—her 6-step Flow Formula—to help us reach this state, which you can find on her YouTube channel. Let go to find who you really are On the subject of resistance to change, Smita and I closely agree. She talks about letting go of what we think we know and how this is scary for people (sound familiar?). They don't know how to do it. We hear an inner voice, that epiphany, but often we're not paying attention. In the end it comes down to a choice where we have to say, will I or will I not listen, see what is in front of me, and take steps to change and grow? The Indian teaching is Vedas, that sense of contentment with wherever you are As Smita tells us, we need to embrace everything we have as being an absolute gift, whatever that might be: our health, our successes in life, our failures, the lessons we've learned, the opportunity to be on this journey. We need to be willing to let go and to trust that the answers are there, but often we block them by not being receptive. Much to learn here! How to connect with Smita You can reach out to Smita on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or on her website. Want more on getting in touch with your purpose? Start here: Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life? Podcast: Maria Lizza Bowen—Do You Feel Stuck? Time To “See, Feel And Think In New Ways” Podcast: Dr. Mandeep Rai—Do You Need A New Compass To Direct Your Values Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi, welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, I'm your host and your guide, and you, our audience and listeners, have made us among the top 5% of global podcasts. I can't thank you enough. My gratitude is extensive. It's wonderful to share. This is almost our 400th podcast hosting. Pretty impressive. I am always intrigued because my job is to get you off the brink, not to stick and get stuck, but to find ways to help you see, feel, and think in new ways so you can change, and you know that you hate to change. So we're going to help you do that today. I have a wonderful woman here from the UK. Now remember, I've had people from South Africa and from Africa and from Europe, but this is a very special woman because she's going to talk to you about something that's very important to us. Smita, you'll see, is focused on entertaining interviews and conversations that help people see, feel, and think in new ways like I do. She's an award-winning author, an avid yogi and teacher, mentor and high performance transformation coach. And she's written a bestseller called Karma and Diamonds. It's a trilogy, it's a journey of self-discovery across continents and lifetimes. We have a wonderful multifaceted woman with us today. She had a business career spanning 25 years, working with technology giants as well as startups. So she blends that wonderful business side with the personal side. But I think we're going to focus more on you as a person today, less on the business. And she has a YouTube channel called The Self-Discovery Channel, which is her own YouTube channel for you too. Self-discovery. Thank you so much for joining me. Smita Joshi: Andi, I'm so happy to be on this podcast. I know you interviewed some amazing people. I'm really, really happy to be on your show. Andi Simon: Well, I'm happy we're here too, since we had a few little technical stuff as we started. This is going to be fun. Tell the listener about your own journey, because you haven't just popped out and arrived here. You've gone through some of your own changes and I think every time people tell their personal story, the audience begins to see themselves there and can begin to share their own story. Who are you and how are we together? Smita Joshi: Who am I? That's a very good question. If I were to put it in one word, I'd probably say seeker, truly looking to integrate all the various facets of what makes us human. But, at the same time, I like that we are a spark of some sort of divinity consciousness. Rather, I'd like to put it as awareness in a human body. So how do we bring those two things together? And I think that for me, the journey, there's nothing which I feel is a coincidence in life. I was born in India and we moved to the UK when I was 10. And ever since, I have found myself looking for ways to integrate the amazing cultures that I've had the privilege of being a part of. And both of those offer something really exquisite. If I were to take the Indian culture, the roots of the Indian culture go so far deep and back to perhaps the ancient stages of India. I like to think of them as philosopher scientists or scientist philosophers, because they were the early scientists. Today, we might look at them as philosophers. We may look at them as spiritual adepts or however you may term it today. But what they brought was incredible, and I believe so far my studies have given me an unrivaled understanding of being human on this planet at this time. But having the majority of who we are, perhaps 90% of our existence is in pure awareness, which is incapable of being housed in a tiny little human body and even a tiny little mind. So to comprehend the vastness of who we are. And so that's what Indian culture has led me to be intrigued by and explore very deeply in the Western culture, gives opportunities to explore in the material external one. Now, don't get me wrong, of course India's both of those things. And I wouldn't want somebody who's listening who's an Indian to say, Oh yeah, well, we have more than that. Of course we do. But I think the two bring unique things, they bring them in a different way. And so the West calls you into being in the external world. The East calls you into being in the internal world. And  for me, it's not a coincidence that I was born there. And then I came here when I was 10, and then a whole bunch of synchronicities and life experiences took place that brought about more opportunities to explore and become more curious and say, Well, who am I then actually? And what is this about? And fundamentally, then we kind of come back to that higher essence of who we are. And then, you know, when we look at life purpose, of course you can have life purposes in so many different layers. Life purpose in terms of, what does my material being that the human humanity that I am, what does that want to accomplish? And then what about the deeper essence? And what is the deeper purpose of all of us as human beings being on the planet? And, you know, I really think we're works in progress and we are like what I call my book, Karma and Diamonds. The diamond element has multiple meanings in the book. And one of them is that we are indeed that inner essence, that awareness is so multifaceted that it to me occurs like a treasure that is a pure diamond, absolutely pure untainted, untainted experience by anything external. And so for me, that is, you asked me who am I, I think for me that's a more interesting exploration or an explanation of how I see myself, is somebody who's constantly looking to one express various facets of my being, both in the material world externally, and to discover more and more facets of who I am internally, so that I can bring expression to those in the external world. Andi Simon: This is so interesting. As I mentioned to you, I've been doing podcasts and I didn't realize until yours that the whole series of them are around similar themes. It's almost, you talked about synchronous as well as serendipity. You know, there is no intentionality here for my listeners to bring you different perspectives on this inner voice and the outer experience. But Smita has had a very different presentation of her journey, which is less about things she's done and more about discovering who she is. And I don't know much about her book, but I think I'm going to read it. It is probably a little bit about that self-discovery as well. And as we were talking, what would be the best thing to talk about that trilogy, you tell the gripping story of how to overcome adversity against all odds. Tell us about the book, which is one expression because you have one expression in the book, one in YouTube. And I want to make sure that we allow the listener to really understand the wisdom that you're bringing them because it's a beautiful intersection here. So what is the book about? Smita Joshi: So it's really a book which is very much rooted in the external world. A young woman who is absolutely enthralled by life. I mean the passion for life kind of led me to join corporate work very early on. In fact, I started working when I was 14 years old on Saturdays. In the UK, we were allowed to do it in those days. It was absolutely fascinating for me to realize that I had skills which I couldn't otherwise have discovered so easily. So one of them was selling and in another way, just engaging people and having them see a possibility of something that they previously hadn't done and become so excited by that they were happy to invest in that thing. So I started out in clothes shops and then moved into shoe shops and so on, and then managed them on my holidays and so on. But very quickly I realized that I wasn't patient enough to hang around to get a degree. I really wanted to hop in now. So I gave it a go while I was waiting on my year off between what we call a level in this country. That's advanced levels and we need that in order to qualify to get into university. So I took a year break and while I was figuring out if I should go the way of my grandfather and my mother and my aunt who were all lawyers, and my grandfather was very well recognized in Gujarat and so on. You know, he became quite a figure untill the day he died at 92. I don't think he stopped practicing. And my mom and my aunt also in their day, they were well ahead of their time to have done that. So that was one obvious option for me. But I was really deeply interested in psychology and so many things. Bottom line was, I got hooked into management and then I never looked back since. Then joined my first sort of corporate group, which happened to be in sales. And everything that kind of came to me was really about expressing talents that I actually didn't know that I had. And it was just so much fun to do along the way that I realized that actually that whole world and other things happen in my life. I don't want to go into that on this podcast in particular because they're all in the books. Very intense traumatic events in my life that involve, that put in it a nutshell, were around clashes of culture, Eastern and western. And I was very, very clear about what I had to do in order for me to grow and to learn more about myself. So I chose to follow my path, that inner voice that was so strong and that had me go into work and so on, and I did very well with all of that. You know, I bought my first property very early on, I think I was 21, just before I was 22, and so on. I realized that the more I got rooted into work, the more I had to find some, there was something else. It wasn't enough for me just to do that. So that's when I started to explore like, what else is it? And I happened to come from a background where I saw my dad, since I was a little girl, standing on his head in Sukhasana, doing yoga almost every day and then sitting in meditation for what seemed to me a very, very long time, every single day. So that was kind of in the back of my mind, it was in my imagery. That was where I turned to when I started to explore like, what is missing? What is missing? And that was really just after I turned 25, 26. So it was very early on and I realized that when I did that, incredible things happened. Something was trying to talk to me when I wasn't talking to myself or being fascinated by my own thoughts. Thinking this is, what this is all real. And then I realized, what is that? It's so different. And I've had experience up to that point at other times in my life, but always in moments of deep, deep trauma. And this all came out from the yoga and the meditation, but mostly the openness that you had to begin to feel it. I think openness, definitely, but I wonder whether it was more a young woman who was really looking for answers. I didn't have anywhere I could go to get those answers for myself immediately in my surroundings because I'd left home and that was already a really major leap and sort of upset a lot of people along the way. So, I had to find my answers for myself. Something said to me to turn within and I was very fortunate to come across the odd individuals who said, Read this book, read that book, go here, go do this. And so I just was like a sponge, and I was a sponge. So that all those little stepping stones led me to going within. I'm very, very grateful for that because that's why I wrote the books because I realized that if it hadn't been for, of course today we have social media, we have a lot more content. But back in the day we didn't have that. Books were lifelines. Andi Simon: Now you had a journey that has led you to question. You said you're a seeker. You know, I've been told I'm an explorer. So we share this same curiosity about what we don't know. And we're not quite sure where it's going to take us because the future isn't terribly predictable. But I do like to explore options and see things. I do love to travel. I love to venture beyond my comfort zone. Most people don't. It sounds like you have had to push yourself through all of that. Now you are doing this today to begin to help other people do the same on their journey. How are you doing this? You're coaching them, you're teaching them yoga. What kind of tools do you bring to their lives to help them see and feel with a new freshness? Smita Joshi: Coaching is a really powerful tool. I think sharing content, online writing, all of these are really, they're sort of different elements. So I don't have one thing that I do, of course. I will eventually bring out courses. I've got so much content out there right now or have created that I'm putting out there right now. So bringing that together. Andi, one of my challenges is that the more I learn and the more I explore and the more I understand about life, the universe, the less I feel I know. And I must say I really do feel that and some of that holds me back a little bit because I think I'm just a baby. I said, I'm learning, I feel like it's never enough. And I think that's perhaps a real mark of somebody who is genuinely seeking, because I think we're in an age at the moment where we are so much in a rush to teach other people before we've learned things ourselves. And I've spent, like now, 35 years on the journey, traveling, exploring. I've been diving, scuba diving for 25 years. That's been one aspect of me going deep in another business for like 30 years and so on. I'm just looking now what would be an appropriate way to bring it together. What would I want to share? For me, the only thing I think that's really worth sharing, especially where we are in the information age and internet age and so on, and especially with AI coming, I feel more than ever that the one thing that if I were when I die, perhaps I could make a big impact with in people's lives is by truly getting them connected to that pure awareness that the ancient Indians called Ātman which is really that awareness, that consciousness that I mentioned earlier, which is untouchable. It's pure in the sense that it is unchanging, and yet it's where everything is generated. Everything is born from that. My focus now is really looking at ways of bringing that to people at all levels where they can get an experience of that because it's a zone, which I can tell you what it is, but it's so different for how it occurs for you as it does to me. I want to just give you the tools to be able to access it for yourself. And so, I mean, for example, I do that in a very accessible way. I've just put out one video on my channel. It's called the Flow Formula. It's really a six steps to getting in that zone. What sports people call The Zone. It's getting into the flow and that you access the zone of awareness that we're accessing when we're talking about concentrating, when we're talking about musicians, writers, even anybody that creates anything where they feel at one with what they're doing. So that's one way. The other is, I've created a whole bunch of meditations, which are guided meditations to go along with the books and otherwise, which give you tiny little snippets of getting into that space. So those are just a few ways that I'm doing it. Andi Simon: What does it feel like when you're in that space? Can you describe it for the listener? The viewer? Smita Joshi: I can tell you, for me, it's like I'm in love. I'm in love, and that's all I can say to you. It feels like I'm in love now. I like to think I'm in love with my husband when I have that feeling, that's what it feels like. It's so lush and complete and it doesn't beg for anything extra. I have a smile on my face when I was like, I probably looked crazy to people because I had my headphones on. I was listening to music that got me into that space. And, then I'm just doing what I'm just out of my way, meaning my thoughts are out of my way. And I'm curious as to what will come through if I were not interfering with my mental processes. Andi Simon: This is so wonderful. You're talking about something we hear about, but don't always find someone who can describe it or engage us in wanting to know more about it and begin to see how it could affect us. Because when you wrote up the comments for today, you talked about the inner voice and the life that we're living, that there's a disconnect. One of the questions I had asked you is, how do we get disconnected? And you say, I'm not quite sure, but there's something going on that needs to be brought back together, perhaps through methods like meditation or yoga. But, there's something missing that we need to find that inner hope, that silence that gives us pleasure and this disconnect. Why are we disconnected? I don't think we know. Smita Joshi: I'm not sure that we are disconnected, to be honest, Andi. I don't think we are. I think that we like to think we are. My experience is simply that we haven't really focused enough on other elements of who we are. We've been in survival for way too long and now we're in our evolution, certainly in some parts of the world and not others, yet where we have had that experience of being satiated with, at least materially, we are in a privileged position, many people and others are not, who are still not very much in that survival mode. So we are chasing. We're still trying to bring in the money and to pay the bills. We don't have time for going into the space that I'm talking about because it means letting go a little bit. Letting go of what we think is what we know. And that's actually a whole other experience. That's a whole other conversation. It's like it's a bit scary for people. They don't know how to do it. They need to be guided into it and so on. There's a practice, it needs to be practiced, but when they do it, they don't ever want to do it. It's really true. And I think that's when we start to feel that conflict within ourselves, or we feel like something's not right, or we feel annoyed with things. We feel stressed because we have had that experience along the way. Sometimes it's so powerful that it is an epiphany, and maybe a series of epiphanies, and when we don't then stay true to ourselves, to expand that experience that altered us and touched us so deeply in some way, then that inner voice, that part of you is always present and you are feeling that conflict. It's there and you are not going to it. You are there and you're not paying attention. You're not hearing it. And that's where I think we experience that challenge. So it comes down to a choice in the end. You know, at some point we have to say, will I or will I not? Andi Simon: One of the things that's a theme among many of the folks that I work with and I know, is, Okay, we're out of the pandemic period, but not completely. I just finished my third book and I'm asking myself the question of, Congratulations, what's next? Thank you, what is next? What comes next for us? And we're at that important point in our lives where we really need to be intentional about it, purposeful, meaningful, find the kind of inner voice that tells us what's going to matter. The pandemic showed us. We don't live forever. And now the reality is, every day is a gift. How do we live it appropriately? Any wisdom to share? Smita Joshi: Yes. As you say, as you know, if you are asking that question, Andi, you are ready to really explore the depth of who you are in other ways, because you've had that experience in the external world and you know, it's never enough. You can continue to have more experiences. You can continue to amass more money, you can do whatever, all those. And yet that question you're asking will creep back in. So the question perhaps is maybe a slightly different one. The question is, How am I going to embrace a bigger experience, one which truly makes me feel complete and fulfilled. Andi Simon: Well, but then that's a very interesting question. We had to say goodbye to three friends in the last month. And as we watch as they leave us and every day is a gift, we become very reflective. And whether I'm looking for my inner voice or it's already nagging at me, be careful that you don't waste your time. Be careful of what gives you pleasure, balance the work and the private life. Your family and your friends make it meaningful. And I have a hunch you are doing the same. Smita Joshi: Yeah. I think that the one thing that speaks to me so much from the Indian teachings is Vedas. It's very simple. And yet it's so incredibly profound. And that is: see if you can bring into yourself that sense of contentment with wherever you are. What else is there? This is it. Then we have nothing else to fight for, everything to play for and nothing to fight for. So that's when we start to kind of embrace what we have as being an absolute gift and whatever that might be, our health, our successes in life, our failures in life, the lessons in life, the opportunity to be on this journey. And so I, myself, and in my yoga classes in particular, I really remind people every single class, to come into Savasana, which is the last posture where we lie down and it's a surrender posture. And why we practice yoga is for two reasons. One is to get into that soma state, which is the highest state of connecting in meditation to this inner realm, into this awareness. The boundaries fall away and you become one with the boundaries of our humanity. And the other is, when you come into Savasana, you can't come into Savasana unless you have practiced. The body has had certain detoxifications and so on. But the point of Savasana is really to arrive into that. And, we go to bed every single night and I, myself, go into that state of Savasana. Savasana means a corpse actually. And it is to surrender into what? Surrender into all of everything and into the nothingness of everything but with a contentment in yourself. Now there's this whole movement, people talk about gratitude and so on, but that sense of appreciation, deeply appreciative of what has gone before, today, yesterday, the day before, for all of it. And I think that for me, that is a lifelong journey to, it's a practice and it transforms how everything arises in life and how it occurs in our inner world. Andi Simon: You know, you said that you are on many podcasts now, and I appreciate you having come today to ours because you've opened up my mind and I have a hunch to what our listeners are also paying attention to, which is, how am I hearing myself? Where am I finding that peace? And how do I allow myself to sleep? What's keeping me from sleeping? Am I wandering around the house all night? There's so many messages that you have. One or two things that you'd like them not to forget? Very often our audience remembers the end better than the beginning. Anything in particular? Smita Joshi: No, I come back to that. I think being receptive to what wants to come in, the gifts that want to come into our lives, comes in through our awareness. It comes in through that higher consciousness that we're talking about, Ātman. And in order to really be open to that, it is to bring ourselves into that state of peace and contentment. And we do have so many responsibilities, family and many others, financial and so on. And they can sometimes disturb our sleep at night because these things are intense. They're very much real. And so, the willingness to let go and to trust that the answers are there, but we are blocking them by not being receptive to them. And the sleep state at night is a really crucial state. And to arrive in the way we arrive, we don't know how to come into our sleep state. And that's partly why I think we are addicted to a culture across the world. There's so many people taking medicines and so on,  to be able to sleep. But I think to myself, I just have to trust that if I have a challenge in my life, there's a solution to it. And if I were only to get out of my own way by bringing myself into a state of contentment and peace and being okay with where everything is right now and where everything is not right now, just that state of acceptance, surrender, and that leads us into peace and contentment. Don't be content if you don't want to be, but at least be at peace with the way things are and the way that they're not. And that's enough for Ātman, the higher consciousness to start giving us the right way forward, the highest way forward. Andi Simon: I think this has been wonderful. I can't thank you enough for coming. I'm so glad that we were able to connect the books that you have. Karma and Diamonds is a trilogy. Where can people buy it? Smita Joshi: They're on Amazon and they're on my website. So on Amazon, we have them in paperback. We have them in additional format and audiobooks on Audible and Amazon, obviously. We have the books through my website. If you're in the UK and you would like to avail of the books through myself, you can go to my websites, SmitaJoshi.com, and you can buy them there. And I also have a package with meditation. There are 12 guided meditations that people can engage a little bit deeper into the books. So, even if people buy them on Amazon, they can just let me know, send me the order number and I will be happy to share those meditations. They can also get some other free gifts from my website too. Andi Simon: What are nice free gifts? I'm going to go explore, and I'm also going to thank our audience for joining us today. And we're just about ready to wrap up. I know you've been on many podcasts. I'm honored that you've chosen ours, and I'm delighted to listen to your passion. You have found your own place, your purpose, and your heart is full of joy as you want to share this. Am I right? Smita Joshi: Absolutely. Such a privilege. Andi Simon: It is truly my honor. For our guests who come, your audience, those who are viewers and those who are listeners, thank you so much for coming. And as you're thinking about your own experience, you can go exploring a little bit. It's a time for you to make sure that every day is a gift, how you live it matters. Find that inner peace, sleep well, and enjoy the day because the future is now. It's all over us, so it's time for us to enjoy it. Remember that people hate change, so you don't have to worry about it. And it's just part of it, but you can actually change for the better. So thanks for coming. I'm going to say goodbye. Take care now. Bye-bye. Thank you. Smita Joshi: Indeed. Thank you so much.

Hear why robust, targeted marketing is the wisest investment you can make Want to get energized about how to effectively market your business and present it to the world in the best possible light? Listen to my interview with Melea McRae, a “fractional chief marketing officer.” What's that, you ask? According to Melea, it's when companies like hers (Crux) “joins with an in-house team to execute on a strategy and provide additional bench strength for marketing departments.” As you'll hear, Melea is on the cutting edge of what it takes to stand out amidst the clutter today and persuade potential buyers to want to connect with you. Listen, learn and share! Watch and listen to our conversation here Some important points for you to consider from our conversation today Do you really feel the marketing people you're working with understand your business? It's all about how to differentiate your message so that you're standing out of that sea of sameness. There's so much competition in every industry today. It's easy to start a business, but really hard to grow it to that next level and scale it if you're not making a wise marketing investment. What happens when marketing and sales can align is magic: rowing in the same direction, singing the same song, sharing information back and forth. “You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.” Melea's company teaches the sales team how to make the horse drink. Leadership is the most important thing. CEOs must align their brand with the company's brand. Key takeaway: You better believe that younger purchasers and new potential buyers are going to research your company The people you want to reach are going to do their research. How? Online. They're going to look at your website. They're going to read your blogs. They'll look at what recent PR you've garnered. They want to know how you describe your services. Does that align with the perception they have of you? Is there consistency throughout your website? Then they're going to follow you on your social channels. Remember, they care as much about your culture, how you treat your employees, and your social responsibility as how profitable you are. How are you giving back to the communities that have helped you be successful? Therefore, you need to use social media to reflect your brand through your culture, your philanthropic efforts, how you care about DEI, and how you incorporate all of that into your brand. How to find Melea There are multiple ways you can connect with Melea: LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and her website Crux. For more on why marketing is key to a sound business strategy, check these out: Podcast: Mark Schaefer—Are You Ready For The Marketing Rebellion? Podcast: Patrick Van Gorder—Ready For The Right Data-Driven Digital Marketing Strategy To Expand Your Business? Podcast: Dave Summers—How Can You Build Your Digital Brand Effectively? Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Hi, welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to get you off the brink. And I love to do that by bringing you people who are going to help you see, feel, and think in new ways. People often ask me, why do I say that? We decide with the eyes and the heart, and then the head gets involved. And unless you realize that, then you really don't understand how we make decisions. And sometimes we overanalyze the data and we think we know we're making wise decisions. Melea is laughing and she's smiling at me. So I brought you a wonderful woman today who's going to help you understand the new age of marketing. It's a time of fast change, but the old issues about how do I tell my story and how do I create a brand and how do I get to the customers who need me, whether it's through inbound marketing or online search, or is it the website or is it social media? And how do I know that the dollars I'm spending are being used wisely by this collaboration I have with my agency? That's her story. Let me tell you who she is and why it's important to listen to her. Melea McRae is founder and CEO of Crux KC and co-founder and CEO of Crux-Accelerator. Now she's going to tell you where KC is as well. She's a marketing strategist, 25 years of B2B and B2C experience in leading client-facing marketing departments where she earned the reputation of an insightful brand strategist. She's formerly the Senior Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at the Greater KC Chamber. I'm assuming that's Kansas City. Yes, it's Kansas City, one of my favorite places to work, and she's led the organization's marketing and business development offices. In 2016, she made the entrepreneurial leap and launched her own marketing firm, Crux KC, a certified women-owned business providing in-house marketing for small to midsize clients, combining the leadership of a fractional CMO with a marketing department as a service model to provide simple, smart and affordable full funnel marketing solutions. She builds marketing, communications and business development strategies for clients and positions them for sustainable growth. She also, in 2019, co-founded its sister company, Crux Accelerator, with an emphasis on sales, coaching and leadership development paired with marketing to positively impact revenue growth. I don't think I have to tell you much more about why I've selected her to come on today, other than the times they are changing and it's time to think about very important subject marketing and sales. And Melea, thank you for coming today. I appreciate you being here. Melea McRae: Andi, thank you so much for having me. Lovely to be a part of this. Andi Simon: Would you tell the audience about your own journey? I can read the facts, but you know, this is about the feelings and I have a hunch you can give it a personality all of its own. Who are you and how'd you get here? Melea McRae: Great question. Great setup. So I made that entrepreneurial leap in 2016 with a belief that there had to be a better way to service small to mid-market companies. Since then, we have really evolved in terms of working with larger companies as well. I'm a firm believer that all the marketing roles apply, as long as you really understand the audience that you're trying to reach, right? So we do consider ourselves to be industry agnostic here at Crux. We work with all shapes and sizes, from startups to global companies. We are fractional. I would say a fractional chief marketing officer meets an in-house team to execute on that strategy and provide additional bench strength, if you will, for marketing departments that are pretty well staffed or if they have certain gaps in their abilities, knowledge gaps, we will come in and fill those holes. But in many cases, Andi, we are the marketing team outsourced, where these clients simply hand us the keys and we drive. I was doing my executive project during my executive MBA at Rockhurst University here in Kansas City and I really wanted to research the trends that were happening in the advertising, the traditional advertising industry. When I left the Greater KC Chamber as our chief marketing officer, I did a brief stint with a local, what I call traditional ad agency. And I've always been on the client side. So I saw red flag after red flag on how I would do it differently if it were my own, how I would lead with transparency, about transparency and billing. For example, transparency and communication. Wait, wait, how much would you say that was gonna cost? We actually like our clients, we cheer for our clients. Nothing brings me greater joy than when a client fills out their org chart and they write their client's CMO is the Crux fractional CMO that's working on their account. So we really have this mentality because I've been that client. Like I said, I think like the client, I don't think like the agency. I think what I've noticed is what happens with a lot of agencies, Andi, is great people, great creatives, right? And I know several of them that have built really amazing agencies and businesses, but they are creatives and they lead with creative. So part of  what we say at Crux is, there's no fluff. Our tagline is “Everything you need, nothing you don't.” We jump in, we understand that client's business. We understand their business goals. We build a marketing strategy to align with those goals, and then we hit the go button and we're off and running. And so there isn't that creative fluff with us. We just get to the point, that's the name: Crux. Andi Simon: A client can have a lot of hope. Hope is a lousy strategy. I've been there. Melea McRae: Hope is a lousy strategy. I have worked with so many CEOs. I belong to CEO peer groups through my background with the Chamber. I'm pretty highly networked in Kansas City with a lot of various civic organizations and CEO peer groups and things like that, and I find myself doling out a lot of free advice and I'm happy to do so because I'm very pro business, I'm really pro small business. I feel like we have to stick together. Small businesses make up 99% of all businesses in the US. I think it represents about 44% of the total economy. So they're the backbones of our communities. And I can't tell you the number of times I've had phone calls from friends that are business owners and they've made maybe not a wise marketing investment. They found themselves without a lot of money and with very little traction towards their business goals. So I do a lot of free education with those individuals. I simply tell them, If it sounds too good to be true, first of all, it probably is. Do you really feel like the people that you're working with understand your business? There's no such thing as a one hit wonder. We know that the key is consistency. Content is still king, as you and I know in terms of fueling your digital presence and storytelling. It's all about how do you differentiate your message so that you're standing out of that sea of sameness. And let's face it, there's so much competition in every industry. It's really easy to start a business, but it's really hard to grow it to that next level and to start to scale that business if you're not making a wise marketing investment. I actually launched Crux-Accelerate for that very reason. I was working with a lot of startups. I'm really embedded in the startup community here in Kansas City. And I would watch if they would be funded. They get that first round of angel investment funding and they were out of money by month six or seven because nobody was building the pipeline from a sales perspective. We were building the marketing machine behind the scenes. But if you've got nobody following up with those leads, and nobody that can really even tell that story of how their brand is differentiated, it's really hard to close up sales. So that was really the genesis of the sister company to Crux called Crux-Accelerate. Andi Simon: Well, you know, I'm laughing because many, many years ago I was an executive at a hospital and we did marketing. I had marketing under me among other things. And we did a big campaign for some new doctors only to discover, because we created a separate telephone number so we could measure the calls coming through, if there weren't any appointments being made. So I went to the office manager and she said, Well, we don't answer that phone because we don't have any time for a new company. And I said, Oh, the 450 calls came through so he's going to wonder what marketing has done. And actually you have to pick up the phone and answer it. Now, those were the days where the phones were still phones, and we could still measure what it was. But, you know, without measures, without data, you can't evaluate anything. And it is a big empty hole that you're putting money into for what now. I'll also be honest and transparent that we were HubSpot partners for many years; now we're Inbound Marketing folks. We understand that Google has changed the way people search and buy things. So we're content mavens, like you said. And while I love social media, I love my website, I love the content, and I love picking up new clients who find me, download my white papers, do my YouTube stuff, and come and say, I need you. So marketing, yes. Is it the world that we're in? Yes. But you also have skills and services that take a young company that needs to build its story and help you get there. Talk to us about a typical kind of client, either an early stage or a maturing one. Melea McRae: Yeah, I would say, typically we're working with entrepreneurs. So they're at some sort of a growth stage, an inflection point within that company's journey. And so, yes, sometimes it's a newer company that they're ready to push the gas in terms of a marketing investment to really start to fuel sales leads. Sometimes it's more of a legacy brand that has maybe been stagnant for a while. And again, they're ready to pour some gasoline on the fire and increase their marketing efforts as well. So really any age and stage of the client is the right fit for us, as long as they're open-minded to understanding what a smart marketing investment can do for them. So we bring that chief sales or chief marketing officer to the equation that's going to build a strategy based on what does the competitive landscape look like? How is their website currently performing for them? How is digital performing? Are they getting any PR hits? PR  is that kind of secret sticky factor sauce for us and clients. We do really well internally at just mining for what are those newsworthy stories that we can pitch on their behalf and that fuels social, that fuels the website. That's with content. If those are little golden nuggets when we can nail those, even case studies. Sharing those success stories through email marketing, you know. So yeah, things like that just really work to fuel business growth for clients. And that's our vision statement honestly: fueling business growth for clients and opportunities for our team. And we live that motto every day here at Crux. Andi Simon: Thank you. Tell me a little bit more about has the intersection or the adversarial relationship between marketing and sales changed? Melea McRae: Yeah. So it needs to change. I would say in many organizations, they're still on two different paths. The sales team tends to go rogue, and the marketing team tends to abide by the brand guidelines and all the rules that apply and try to reel them in. What happens when marketing and sales can align however, is magic. If you can get them rowing in the same direction, singing the same song, they're sharing information back and forth, the salesperson is saying, Hey, this is what we're hearing out in the field, and it's really this message point is really resonating with my audience. Then the marketing can fuel that internally with social campaigns or email campaigns or do a blog, a thought leadership piece on why this particular company does this thing really well. And again, just hit those points with an explanation point, quite frankly, and put it out there in terms of content. So if they can work hand in hand, it really is magical in terms of what can result. And so that was really the genesis of Crux-Accelerate. We come in with Chief Sales Officers that become sales coaches for internal sales teams. So they'll coach the teams up through a six month curriculum where it's a group training session followed by individual executive coaching with a chief sales officer. There's a lot that goes into this, but we infuse a lot of marketing tactics, understanding what marketing is really doing behind the scenes to help you generate those leads. We're explaining to them the difference between brand marketing and building that awareness with demand marketing and generating those leads and then show: are you appropriately following up with those leads. There's an old saying for marketers: we can lead the horse to water, but we can't make the horse drink. We're teaching the sales team how to make the horse drink. And we're infusing things like personal brand and the art of networking. I do a presentation for Rockhurst University and some other organizations called the Art of Networking: just teaching them that networking equals connections and it's building relationships and how you can help them so that you're paying it forward and they're going to return that favor and it's the long play. So there's a lot of that infused throughout this curriculum, but we're pretty excited about really where Crux-Accelerator is headed right now. Andi Simon: Well, you know, I had a client in Texas and he had great sales guys. Only problem was that the folks they sold to retired and the two who were replacing them were 35 year olds and they don't pick up the telephone, so the outbound sales call folks had nobody to sales call because nobody picked up the phone. So when we did our research, the new 35 year olds said, Don't they know that we don't answer phones? We're not going to buy over the phone, we search. Or we talk on our forums, or we go to our network, but our buying journey is a different one than the old guys who retired. So my client says, So what will I do with my great salespeople? I said, They should be lead follow ups. You need to get a website that isn't a brochure. But it's full of reasons why and that turns into interest in qualified leads who your sales guys can now follow up with. It's different, but the leads should be coming to you as opposed to you, because nobody is going to answer those telephones. That's not the way it's going to work anymore and until you come to terms with them, you don't realize the integration between the web and the social and the sales. Those four sales guys knew what they knew and the habits were great, but that's not the way it was going to buy and it was flooring to him. Really? How many people are coming to my website? Yes, but they're not staying. I can tell you how many are actually staying, where they're staying, what they're looking at. I can tell you a whole lot about your website and it's not functional. It was very unsettling. Like welcome to the whole new world, welcome to the digital age. We coach CEOs all the time on the days of cold calling are dead. You know, there are Sierras out there that are still holding their sales team accountable for KPIs that are, how many daily phone calls have you made? Well, you're right. No one. Do you pick up the phone? I don't pick up the phone anymore. I don't even know why I have a phone on my desk. I never answer it. Quite frankly, nobody buys that way anymore. They are in charge of their purchase pattern, and they are influenced. So by stories, I want you to talk more about stories, because the human being lives a story in their mind. It's an illusion of their reality, welcome to the world. And they only relate to things that match that story. And if you're out of sync with them, they don't even see it. So tell me about your branding and your brand storytelling, because I think it's an essential part of a marketing campaign that's often overlooked. Melea McRae: Oh, completely essential. In fact, when I launched Crux, we were really known as a content shop, and storytellers really followed by strategy. Over the years, over the last seven years, we've really established bench strength and all the other marketing tactics and expertise that we've needed, but we started out as storytellers, so huge advocate of storytelling working. And it goes back to content being king. So let's take thought leadership for example. People are going to follow you on your LinkedIn network or whatever channel, Instagram, whatever you prefer, based on the fact that they're relating to the content that you're sharing. So for Crux, for our voice, for example, I do a lot of blogging, a lot of thought leadership, and I always try to tie it back to some sort of an analogy or some sort of a story that's happened to me in my past, and then I relate it to a topic or a trend, and I have garnered a really nice following as a result. Well, we do this for all of our clients. I have CEOs that will say to me, You know, it's not leadership that's really important. Oh my gosh, it's the most important thing. Because again, it's establishing that CEO's brand or whichever leader in the company, it doesn't have to be the CEO, and it aligns their brand with the company's brand. This is who people do business with: people. This is who I'm doing business with, and this is what makes them an expert on this particular topic. And then when you're telling it in storytelling form, you know, 800 words, it's a fun quick read, and you can pull quotes out of that and use it in your social media posts, you can maybe tie a PR story that relates back to the thought leadership piece and you can pitch that to the media. Maybe it came out of a case study, a success story and something that went really well successful with your clients. Let's capture that. Let's grab their testimonials, let's push that out through a case study that might also spawn the idea for a thought leadership piece on that particular win. What made that a win? So there's so many ways that you can repurpose that content as well, but it truly is what differentiates a brand. It's what makes you stand out. It is what those younger purchasers are looking for now. They want that content and they're going to do their research. And how are they going to do their research? Online. They're going to look at your website. They want to read those blog articles on your website. They want to look at what recent PR have you garnered. How do you describe your services on the site? And does that kind of align with the perception that they had? Is there consistency throughout? And then they're going to follow you on your social channels. Really oftentimes anymore, Andi, they care as much about, new potential buyers of your products and services, care as much about your culture and how you treat your employees, your social responsibility. How are you giving back to the communities that have helped you be successful, in terms of what it is that you're offering in terms of a product or service. So social media is just another way to reflect your brand through your culture, through your philanthropic efforts, through how you care about DEI, how do you incorporate that into your brand? We do a lot of work with our clients now around what we call employer branding, because recruitment, we're all still searching for and finding the best talent. And it goes both ways. You're trained to reach those potential clients, but you're also trying to reach those potential candidates.  So this is how you can use thought leadership. This is how you can use your culture in terms of attracting both of those audiences. Andi Simon: I'm curious, I was interviewing someone today for a podcast who's an expert in LinkedIn. With the Twitter changes and Instagram's growth and Facebook's role, the common question I get is, Well, which ones do you do? Which ones do you look at? And I figured I might ask you, the marketing expert, which ones for which people to do what things, because they aren't identical by any means. Melea McRae: And they should not be identical. It depends on the audience. The audiences that you're trying to attract, where are they? So if it's a younger demographic, maybe it's TikTok, it's definitely Instagram. Twitter has kind of lost its appeal for a lot of B2B businesses, but I look at Twitter as headlines. So if you're just scanning headlines, that's a good way to use Twitter. Facebook is still really powerful, many demographics in terms of various audiences, and it always performs better than I think it's going to. That's really the power of using one's own network as well. Like, I'm in a lot of Facebook groups with women who mean business in Kansas City, the Casey Chambers and civic organizations that I'm in. So that's a great way to get certain messages out where my brand is tied back to the company brand. But my number one network for Crux is LinkedIn. We do a lot of business to business marketing. And so that's what I would recommend for anyone that's doing a lot of B2B marketing, but you have to really look at the other channels and how they can benefit you in terms of reaching the audiences that you're trying to reach. Andi Simon: And for LinkedIn, it has become a marketplace that I'm finding, excuse me, not particularly pleasant. If I have one more person who wants 15 minutes of my time to sell me one more thing that I'm not interested in. I'm trying to remain true to my brand and my story. That's what my client this morning, who was doing a podcast with us, said, If you turn it into a marketplace, go for it. But it is not a good marketplace. You're better off investing in content on your website and attracting people who are searching for you, as opposed to trying to push it out like a cold call. And that's what it feels like. And they don't know if I'd be interested or not, but I'm sure you would be. And here's 15 minutes of my time. Hit, click this link. No, no, no. And I say, LinkedIn, what have you become? Melea McRae: Yeah. That is unfortunate. I would agree with you. I'd probably get hit up by 15 of those a day, but the power is to the user. So I can go and just x on all of those and not accept them. It's making it harder and harder to lead through. And for an old school networker like myself, it kind of encourages me or re-encourages me to go to more of those networking events, having more of the face-to-face content. I was probably at six different networking events just last week, Andi, and got a stack of business cards. People still use business cards and still hand them out. I try to make networking events a game, and I try to give myself permission to leave after I get three business cards. That's something I teach my students as well. And then you follow up with that personal email. You kind of jot something down on the back of them, a memory point. Maybe they're traveling to Costa Rica next week or whatever it is, and you send them that little follow up or don't ever underestimate. I almost find that a bit joyful, you know, it's a real person with a business, a business card. It's like real, it's tangible. Andi Simon: Which reminds me to redo my business cards. I'm almost out. Melea McRae: Can help you with that, Andi! Andi Simon: I will get back in touch with you. I could use a fresh look. It's been three years since we were out enough to worry about them. And, now I gave them out at an event I was at all weekend and I realized they've getting awfully old-looking, time for a fresh look. But in any event, this is such fun as you look to the future. Somebody ranked our podcast among the top 10 futurist podcasts. So I'm a futurist now and I am a futurist. Well, the question is, what do you see coming next? Melea McRae: You know, I think that we've had a lot of people try to knock off this model of being that marketing department as a service, as you will. I think that the traditional ad agency model is dying. I think that they're having to rethink, again, how you partner with the client, how you really dive in deep and learn their business and use marketing to propel that growth for the client, customize those marketing strategies and those engagements. There is no such thing as a one size fits all. So I definitely see that changing. I think what protects Crux a little bit in that regard is, it's hard to bring a fractional chief marketing officer to the equation if you've never been a chief marketing officer. And I have, and I've homegrown this talent and a lot of agency owners have been creative. And so I think it's hard for them to make that switch. You can't just put on a CMO hat and say, I'm a CMO today. So I think that we are going to see more of that probably. Fractional CMOs is a very highly searched word on the internet. So that's a buzzword that's really taken off. I will be interesting to see what happens with AI, ChatGPT, and you know, how people are utilizing that for writing versus kind of more of the old school. Really understand your brand voice and write to your brand voice. I think, you know, AI can get people maybe 60% to 70% of the way there, but you still need that writer and editor that's going to polish it and put it in that brand voice. But I know that's definitely on the horizon. Podcasts are huge, what we're doing today. We're doing a lot of podcasts for our clients. We're doing them ourselves internally at Crux. And it's another way in live video, audio form, to tell those client success stories and let your client or your prospect or your key stakeholder get their message out, just like you're doing for me today. So that is definitely a hot trend that we're seeing with clients. And video, video, video, video. Use it. You have to use it on social, you have to use it on your website. Google loves video so it's just utilizing, kind of pulling all of those marketing levers in the way that it's really going to fuel growth and attract those audiences for the clients that we serve or for your own company. If you're a CEO listening to this, how are you making sure that you're working with a partner that's pulling all those levers in the right way for you? And that's definitely a trend, because clients are getting more sophisticated as well about marketing techniques, as they should, which is great. Andi Simon: One last question before we wrap up. The buyer's journey is taking, in some cases, longer and longer. They are spending more time evaluating and evaluating and are most uncomfortable from what I've seen in making a quicker judgment. That buyer's journey that we used to look at in terms of filling the funnel and how long it took to get down to an actual purchase. The discomfort people have come from. Many of them are buyers who are younger and the management system isn't clear. The risks are high, they're not quite sure. It's not IBM. You used to buy IBM because it was IBM, and there is no similarity in many things that you're purchasing. I have one client who keeps buying software that doesn't work particularly well and I laugh after a while because he buys on a less expensive side and the more innovative side, but not necessarily the more functional side. But he takes a long time to decide and then is sure. I don't know if you're familiar with the Paradox of Choice, Barry Schwartz's book, about the paradox of choice. So many choices we don't make, and then when we make them, we return them or we're unhappy with them or we should have bought something else. And I do think it's part of the culture of today, which makes buying and managing and measuring challenging. Is this similar to what you're finding? Melea McRae: It's interesting, we have a really good close rate with our prospective clients. It runs around 70%. Now, I will say in Q1 of this year, we saw people signing contracts less. Q2 though, it's been bubbling up again. I think back to your IBM analogy, it really speaks to the brand reputation that you have developed. And so, for us, PR, and awards and that recognition has gone a really long way in terms of elevating the Crux brand in and around Kansas City. And we have clients all over the country. But, when they're searching for us, because everybody's out there researching, and it can delay a decision or it could speed up a decision. So they're researching Crux and they're saying, Oh, Inc. Magazine, best workplaces, that's cool. Um, champions of business with the Kansas City Business Journal, based on things like how you treat your employees. I always encourage our clients to take a look at those awards in their area, and it's kind of like a great way to get some PR, through the award recognition as well. That really elevates that brand and builds that brand trust with your potential buyer. So if you're really placing an awareness on that in terms of your marketing solution, I do think that can go a long way to speeding up that buyer's decision. They trust you, they're going to buy from you. Andi Simon: Well, you know, in some ways it credentials you as being a third party that says you're great, and even if the product isn't great, you have a great place to work. So that must mean the product is good. I mean, there's sort of all kinds of interesting links to it. This is such fun. My last question for you, usually I say that people remember the end better than the beginning. So are there one or two or three things you'd like our listeners to remember so they can find Crux as their solution? What would it be? Melea McRae: I would say, remember the power of storytelling in terms of elevating and differentiating your brand in your marketplace. I would say content is king, so make sure that you are utilizing fresh content on your website, understanding those keywords that people are using to search you and you're incorporating that into your digital presence. You're incorporating that into your blog post. You're understanding the importance of thought leadership. And I would say when you do make that marketing investment, make sure that the organization, the agency or marketing firm, or we call ourselves a UN agency that you're partnering with, really takes that time to dive in and understand your business. They're not going to be able to build that customized marketing strategy for you if they don't. Andi Simon: This has been a lovely conversation about something near and dear to my heart, but I don't get to talk about it very often because nobody talks about marketing very often, I must tell you. But here's a wonderful woman in a wonderful agency. Might be in Kansas City, but it takes care of the world and it would help you see, feel, and think about yourself and your business in new ways. And so give them a call. Where can they reach you? Melea McRae: They can find me at cruxkc.com or findyourcrux.com. Andi Simon: Terrific. Terrific. And I bet we can find you on the internet, on social, on the web. It's going to be fun to see what happens. You're gonna push this out and I want to know what the data tells you about a podcast and what it can do for you. I've had too many podcasts. We have a lot of data. It's been fun. Let me say goodbye. Thank you for all of you who come. Remember, pre-order my new book. It comes out September 26th and the more pre-orders Amazon loves. So it's called Women Mean Business. And it's on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. And it is going to be a great book. It looks gorgeous. There are 102 women in there who give you their wisdom. And some of those wisdoms are, we say, as we look at the book, turn a page and change your life. So you ask yourself, what could Lily Ledbetter tell you? Or what could Christie Hefner tell you? Or what could Carol Toll who runs UPS share with you? What can successful women help you do in ways that you might not without hearing them? And it's a beautiful book. So I thank all my folks who are in it, but I'm really happy to share it and a little pre-order would make me happy. So we'll see whether this podcast can generate some. In any event, goodbye. Have a great day and take care for all of you who have come. Thanks again. See you soon. Bye-Bye now.

Hear how you have a huge say over how and when you work. I just love the fascinating people I have the pleasure of bringing to you. One of them is Marcey Rader. She first appeared on our podcast in March of 2020 as pandemic lockdowns were just beginning (doesn't that seem a long time ago?) and I found her insights on wellness and selfcare so important that I had to have her back. What struck me during today's conversation was how companies need to reexamine the overwhelming workloads and abundance of tasks they're giving their workers without the resources to do them. Yes, it's great to have wellness apps, fitness benefits, meditation rooms, and all of that, but in truth, what's better for employees is not to need them in the first place because they're not all stressed out. For all who work, listen in! Watch and listen to our conversation here For more on rethinking wellness and work, we recommend these 3 podcasts: Podcast: Diana Wu David—Are You Truly Happy With How You Work, Not Just Where? Podcast: Maura Carlin and Christie Derrico—Isn't It Time For Us To Solve The “Balance Dilemma” For Working Women? Podcast: “Work PAUSE Thrive” with Lisen Stromberg Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and I'm here to help you get off the brink. And I love doing that by bringing you great people to hear so that you can see, feel, and think in new ways about yourself, your business, where you're going, the world around you. Remember, everything is in context. I learned as an anthropologist many years ago that out of context, data has no meaning. And so now the question is, what is the context of the world we're living in today? And how is it changing and changing fast? And I often teach in my leadership academies how to adapt to fast-changing times. It's just the times they're all moving and you might as well hold on tight. It's going to be fun. So today I've brought back to hear from Marcey Rader. Now, Marcey was on our podcast back in 2020, and I love talking to her. She opens my mind to all kinds of things. She has a great podcast that you should listen to, and we'll put her information on the blog when we're done. But Marcey, thank you for joining me today. Marcey Rader: I'm so happy to be back, Andi. Andi Simon: Well, let me tell the listener, or the viewer, about Marcey, and I'm going to read her bio and then let her tell us about her own journey. It makes it come alive better than words can. So who is Marcey Rader? I believe she says that “health powers productivity” and the answer isn't work-life balance, but tech-life balance. And I think that's just a brilliant opening for what we're going to talk about today. She had a case of high stress, high performance, and corporate burnout which triggered severe health issues in her thirties. It was an early burnout, and she founded RaderCo to rethink and revitalize productivity for leaders, teams and organizations at RaderCo. By the way, they take off Fridays, so don't try and reach her on Fridays. Our little email comes back and says, “We believe that you need a day for yourself,” and I love it. She founded Rethink, Revitalize Productivity for Leaders, Teams and Organizations. And she helps the executives and their teams banish burnout. What a great idea! Now keep good people and move forward through coaching, consulting, training, and speaking. And her speaking is centered on practical tailored tools, health, sustainable habits, and accountability. She's one of only 850 certified speaking professionals worldwide, a certified virtual presenter, and a certified digital wellness practitioner. I'm going to pause there because while I enjoy reading it, it really is nowhere near as interesting at what's Marcey's going to tell you about a post-burnout person who thrives by helping people never burn out, which is a strange thing for us to do. Burn up and burn out. Marcey, thanks. And tell us about your journey. Who is Marcey? Marcey Rader: Andi, I am celebrating my 10th business anniversary this year. Woohoo! So I am very excited about that because when I came from the pharmaceutical and biotech clinical research industry, and when I started my business, I had no idea what I was doing. I was very naïve, which in some ways is very good. I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to be a spokesperson my second year of business. I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to have this business model that other people hadn't thought of before. But then, those things turned out to be good. But then there are also, of course, other things, many, many mistakes that I learned, many lessons from along the way. But the burnout piece is really important to me because I was very young. I was in my mid-thirties. I lived a very high-stress lifestyle. I traveled up to 48 weeks a year for about a decade. I was an athlete and I competed in triathlons, Ironmans, ultra-marathons, and so on. I was very high achieving. Every promotion was not enough. Every step up was not enough. I just kept making the goal higher. And I triggered, for lack of a better term, a functional menopause for 12 years. It was related to stress and that is not, not, not good when you are 35 years old. And also I have Hashimoto's disease [autoimmune disorder]. All of these things. And when I look back, those are things that could have been fixed. Those are things that I could have prevented. And so much of it was about not realizing what I could say no to, or not feeling empowered to say no. And striving for what I look back now to see as the wrong things. And when I'm speaking with, especially with women, but also with men, when I talk, especially when I talk about that every goal I just kept setting higher, they can almost always relate. Andi Simon: Yes. But, you know, nobody was making you set higher and higher goals, were they? Marcey Rader: Oh, no, it was all me. And I do think, I emphasize that when I'm working with people, whether as a coach or in training programs, that nobody's making you do anything. The question is, how do you want to live your life? And how do you take charge of it in a way that feels comfortable? Andi Simon: That point about not saying no or saying no…No—it's not a four letter word. And how does it fit into, and remember, we live the story in our mind. So the question is, what story do you want to live? Because nobody's framing that story. You've created it, you believe it to be true. My favorite quote is, “The only truth is there is no truth.” And so once you understand that, you realize, oh, that there's another way. You discovered another way, and now you're helping others do the same. Tell us a little bit about that transformation you went through starting a business, figuring it out, and now it's at a really interesting time. Where is it? 10 years into it, you have really hit your stride. Marcey Rader: We have. It's really exciting. We are a combination of speaking, training, and coaching/consulting, and we are productivity focused, but always with health centered around it. So it doesn't matter how many boxes you check, Andi, if you're staying up all night to do it, it doesn't matter how many emails you answer if you're answering them at dinner with your family, and so it's always with the health focus, but we have different subject matter experts that we pull in. So productivity is the umbrella. But we have people, leadership experts, mindfulness, cultures of belonging, communications, presentations. We have these different experts that we can bring in so we can be more of like a one-stop shop. And we've worked with companies as small as one person tech companies to Delta Airlines. We have seen many iterations of what works and definitely what doesn't work, and what we're about at is 50-50 training and coaching/consulting, and we like that. I like having that split because like when Covid happened, it worked out very well for us. Our business didn't suffer at all. We actually had more business than we can handle. That was already a specialty of ours. I've worked remotely since 2001. So I've been training individuals to work well remotely for about 15 years. So when the pandemic hit and everybody was going out of their minds, how are we going to do this?, you know. We have so many, so many people that would contact us and say, I don't know how we found out about you, but we need training tomorrow. And so, that kind of transition as a country that we are shifting into now, we're kind of figuring out how we work hybrid. How do I work differently at home three days a week and in the office two days a week? And so it is always shifting. I am never what our director of marketing…she started with us a couple years ago and is very new to all of this…and she said, “Every time I feel like, oh, you know, we can kind of cruise, then something changes.” There's not a lot of cruising. There's always going to be change. Andi Simon: Well, and her point about we're going to cruise, not with Marcey anyway, maybe not the company. But if you have a fixed mindset, you're in the wrong place. This is a time for growth. In fact, your job is to bring innovative ideas in, because people need them and you need them as well. But the interesting part is that we have a good relationship with Washington University. We were out there last weekend for a reunion, and the athletic director and his team were very concerned about their athletes competing to see how little sleep they could get. And he started then putting them into meditation, yoga. And we have a room that we have dedicated in the athletic facility for study, and turned it into a wellness center. And he said, “You have to start early because their whole value is on an unrealistic life where it's not good for their athletics or their academics.” But when he said that, I went, “Man, I didn't imagine that it goes right down into elementary school where the ability to balance the different demands on us are trained.” But this is interesting for people in business. You know, you and I both work among very successful business folks who can't quite figure out how to balance all of the options that they have in their day so that it is a doable day. And, the number of young people when they faced the pandemic, asked the big question, If you only live once, how do I want to live it? And they have now started to draw a line among companies to say, No, I'll only work with you if… And they're not quite sure what the if is, but they know that it isn't what it was. You know: “I drive to work, I spend an hour in the car, I work eight, nine hours, I drive home an hour in the car, and I'm supposed to have a life.” And I have one client whose employees all said, “Nope, we're perfectly happy working anywhere and we'll be very efficient.” So now we have an interesting time of rethinking what comes next? What do you see coming next? Because you are out there watching, talking, and helping them really design the future. And someone once said, the future is here already, it's just not widely distributed, and you're trying to distribute it. What do you see? Marcey Rader: Well, first I just have to comment that that makes me very sad that they're wearing that sleep badge, that lack of sleep badge so young. I wore it as well. But, I'm hoping that it's becoming less and less of a thing, that wearing that badge that I get such little sleep, but also, I work x amount of hours and bragging about that. I work 60 hours, 70 hours a week. I used to do that too. It's not anything to brag about anymore. What I see is that more people looking for jobs are going to be looking at companies that don't have an “always on” culture. Because as you said in the intro, it's really not work-life balance. It's like a teeter-totter work and personal life, and your work is part of your life. So I don't really like that term. It's really when people say they want more work-life balance, a lot of times they're talking about tech-life balance. And because it's our technology that is infiltrating our personal lives, it's that we're getting emails at night from our boss or our team members. We're getting pinged on the weekends, and we have this always-on culture. And part of that came from Covid, you know, and it wasn't our fault. A lot of companies didn't know how to work remotely. They were thrown into it without policies. There were parents that were just working whenever they could, when their kids were asleep or when they had two hours of babysitting a day. It was just people working whenever they could. And, you know, it's hard to untrain yourself from bad habits. And we've gotten into really bad habits as a culture. And so these companies that have this always-on culture, what they don't realize is that it creates micro-stresses for their employees. And these micro-stresses build up over time. And even if you are a boss and you say, “If I send you an email at night, I don't expect you to answer it,” that doesn't matter if you are in a position of hierarchy, most people will feel compelled to at least check. And there's actually a stress called anticipatory stress. And when people are just expecting, “Maybe I'll get an email,” they're anticipating that stress. And what we've recently learned is that anticipatory stress actually filters into your family. So it's this digital wellness, which is kind of a new term, but not in my world, but for companies to think about investing in a digitally well culture. And actually, I'm certified by the Digital Wellness Institute and I'm one of the few practitioners that have partnered with them in their digitally well workplace certification. I mean, there's actually certification now. And what I am promoting to the companies that I work with is that you could be one of the first to be a digitally well workplace. And while it may seem like it doesn't matter as much now, a few years from now, it's going to matter a lot because it's going to be one of those things that employees look at, just like when they look at the B Corp symbol or things like that. Is this company that I'm going to invest part of my life in, do they care? Do they really care about how things are for me outside of work hours? Andi Simon: You know, to some degree, the companies themselves should be talking and working with those employees to create a company for the future, because nobody really knows. The youngsters are trying to devise something that makes some sense. But you have so many variables coming in and the elders have been there a long time. The habits are the way we do things. Every time I get hired to help a company change, we start with, “Well, no, that's the way we do things. That's the way it's done.” I say, “I know, but it's not working anymore.” “But I don't know what will work.” And I say, “That is the interesting question. It's a time for exploring, experimenting, collaborating, going out and seeing what others are doing that might work. But most of all, think about the customer and the employee as if they're collaborators in co-creating the work of the future.” It's no longer, “I make it, you buy it.” It's no longer, “You work here. I'll tell you what to do.” Everything that we did is gone. If not in your company, it should be, because now the collaboration will create really rich possibilities. I did some work with one fellow and his head of sales said, “Well, I got three phone calls from folks who wanted things that we don't do.” I said, “So what did you do?” He said that he said, “Well, we don't do that.” I said, “Well, they are looking for a solution. Can you help them?” You can be a general contractor. There are all kinds of opportunities for folks who are saying, “I need this, who can help me?” It's not, you make this, I'll buy it. Change the mind. Remember the words we use: change the worlds we live in and now it's fine. I love the digital bot, ChatGPT. I can't tell you how many folks say, “Oh, I'm not going to use that.” I said, “Oh, yes, you are. Because it's absolutely fascinating.” And then I did a bunch of podcasts on blockchain. And one of the women in my book has created a whole blockchain company for the supply chain. And a city in Switzerland is completely on blockchain. What are we fighting? It's so fascinating. Now, are there any cases you could suggest to the audience that might illustrate what you're seeing? I sometimes like to make the abstract a little concrete. Marcey Rader: For ChatGPT or digital wellness? Andi Simon: Digital wellness. Marcey Rader: Wellness. Just one correction: at RaderCo, we do work on Fridays. We just don't do email! We also have No Task Fridays. And the reason why, Fridays are used to finish up what we're doing so that we can go into the weekend and not be given something to do as we go in. And so we might be finishing up tasks, but we're not assigning them to each other. Andi Simon: Pause for a second because you just defined a workplace of the future. I asked you for an illustrative case, but that's as good as any that you can share. Now you've done this by design. Marcey Rader: Yes. And it was an experiment. I believe we tried something else first. What we settled on was that we liked Fridays to catch up. I've not lost any business. On a Friday, nobody's getting dumped on because it's actually called, there's a name, it's called the Friday Dump when somebody sends somebody something on a Friday afternoon. And even if it's not due til the next week, it's that anticipatory stress. It's that knowing like, now I have this coming up. And you know, we have a very detailed out- of-office that we started on Thursday at five o'clock or whatever. And it's fun, but it gives everybody a link to our manifesto, which is an email manifesto to let people know how we communicate. And for companies that feel very, and I know this is not for all companies, like if you're a pest control company and people are trying to reach you to remove their pests, I'm not saying this works for you. It could work for some roles within your company, but you know, so much of it is communication expectations. And so that people aren't caught off guard. And if people know, like when somebody signs up with us and they get the contract and they get their first email from us, their next steps, it says at the bottom, “This is how we communicate. Here's the link to our manifesto. Here's how you communicate with us, in case of an urgent matter, and so on.” And as long as you communicate that to your vendors, your clients, your customers, there's no problem. We've never had anything but envy or happiness for us. And, we've had companies that are starting to consider or shift into No Meeting Fridays or no emails after 1:00pm on Fridays. You know, people are just taking steps. But then, the easiest solution is, if you do work off hours, just schedule your emails to send later. Andi Simon: Well, and now, so there are tools you can use, schedule those emails to go later. There's a mindset that says, there's not work and life. It's a balance. And you are in charge. If you can take that expectation management is really fascinating. There's nothing wrong with saying, “My expectation is that I'm going to work really hard for four days, then on Friday, I'm going to get reorganized, get everything into place so that I can relax and my weekends are mine. I had a great editor who simply said, “No, I don't do anything on the weekends for the publication because it's my time with my family. Mm-hmm. And I said, interesting. Now I've been a consultant for 22 years, I've been in my own business. And over the years, the creep on Friday became onerous. And in recent years I've just made Fridays by and large my day. Anything that I want to do for myself, I try to do that on Friday, that doesn't mean I can't do it other times. I put 3 million miles in my body, so I needed a little bit of my time. And I urge people who are in the consulting business, you'd be amazed how other people begin to say, that's a good idea. I can have my time also. And, it becomes…the pandemic did something very interesting. My husband and I both traveled a great deal for business and then we would travel for vacations every 90 days. We took a trip, the pandemic brought us together. We didn't travel, and we went. This was fun. Now how do we get it done with a little time anyhow, because you can work all the time. Marcey, I could talk to you all day because I think that you're on the brink of something quite transformative for our audience. Give them two or three things you don't want them to forget. Often the listener remembers the end even better than the beginning. We've talked about so many really important things about the future, both of your life and work, some things you don't want them to forget now. Marcey Rader: What you said was very important about we choose to have the life that we want to live. And yes, while I agree with that, it's up to you. If you are the one checking your email at night, that's on you. And on the weekends, that's on you. However, I also go back to, if you are a leader and you're sending those at night and they know you are, then you're still creating that culture of anticipatory stress. And so it goes both ways. We are the owner of our time, but we also as leaders have to be considerate of that. Something else that I want people or companies to rethink is the benefits they give for self-care. The wellness apps, the fitness benefits, the meditation rooms, all of those things. I think they are wonderful. I commend companies that are doing it. However, it puts the responsibility on the person to fix the reasons why they need these things in the first place. If companies would look upstream at the overwhelming workloads, or the abundance of tasks that they're giving people without the resources to do them, they wouldn't need all of those apps and benefits downstream. And so while self-care is our responsibility to take that time, just like going back to the communication after hours, it is also the responsibility of the company to determine why we need it so much. Andi Simon: This isn't going to get easier. It's going to get more complicated. And because the companies are looking for role models among other companies, they're mimics and they imitate each other. And unless so-and-so is doing it, well that can't be a good idea. So now we've got to find those who maybe they are the companies of purpose who really begin to see this as a bigger opportunity. Or maybe they're good companies that see the benefits for themselves and others. I think this is going to be the next few years that are going to be transformative in ways that I hope lead us to a better, healthier life. The last thing you want to do is find yourself back in a feudal society and sometimes I get this kind of weird thing that it feels that way. This is always so much fun. Where can I reach you? What kind of stuff do you do for folks? Marcey Rader: We are at helloraderco.com and we work with all size businesses, from speaking to keynotes, conferences, but also training. And our three most popular trainings, one is around email, one is around focus and attention, and another one is around time. And it's not really managing your time, it's using your time effectively and your attention effectively. They go together. Managing your time and attention go together. And then we also do the coaching and consulting piece around that. Andi Simon: This is such fun. Thank you for joining me today. It's always a pleasure to see you. This is virtual or real, I'm not sure, but it's delicious. Thank you again. It's fun for our listeners. Remember, our job is to help you get off the brink and soar and so On The Brink with Andi Simon is my way of sharing wonderful people who I've met. People say, you haven't monetized your podcast? I say, no, I've joyfully shared great people so that you can see, feel, and think in new ways, which is really what I hope you have seen today. Remember, we decide with the eyes and the heart. And today has felt all about feeling a life that's worth living, that you can create with the tools to do it. Remember, every day is very long and every year flies by. And so take care, be careful. My books are available on Amazon. They're here to help you. My new book comes out in September. It's called Women Mean Business. You can pre-order it on Amazon, which I hope you will do. Amazon loves pre-orders and you can even order a bunch of them there to share. Women Mean Business has 102 women in it, all of whom want you to see their wisdom, understand it. And one that I loved is, “You don't have to believe everything you're thinking.” Another one is, “Your network of course is your net worth,” and then one that I just love is that what you see is, you can create this hope. There's really powerful women in there who are ready to help you become the woman you always wanted to be. Like Marcey. I think this is such fun. I'm going to wish you all a good day. Please stay safe. Stay healthy, and enjoy life. Bye-bye now.

Learn how what we're really doing as we go through life is work on ourselves. What makes an inspiring leader? According to my guest today, Dr. Srikumar Rao, it is to be personally inspired by a vision which brings a greater good to a greater community. As a leader, you are in the business of helping everyone you run across improve their position in life and raise their level of consciousness, because this is your path in life. Isn't that a great message to live by? My dear friend Pat Shea, with whom I did a podcast back in 2020, told me that I just had to have Dr. Rao on our podcast and boy was she right! Listen in, this could very well change your life. Watch and listen to our conversation here Dr. Rao's pearls of wisdom that you can take and apply to your own life The only thing you ever do in life is work on yourself. Everything you're given by the universe—your partner, your children, your job, your career, your business—they're tools. You use those tools as skillfully as you can. But in the process of doing that, what you're really doing is, you're working on yourself. Life is a short journey, let's make sure we have joy and it feels purposeful and takes us to another place. Your awareness is like a flashlight. What does a flashlight do? A flashlight illuminates whatever you shine it on. What do we typically do with the flashlight of our awareness? We shine it on the two, three, or four things that we think are problems in our lives and we DON'T shine it on the 40, 50, 200 things that are good about our lives. So shine the flashlight of your awareness on the many ways in which you're fortunate and blessed. Do it the last thing at night before you go to bed. Do it first thing in the morning. Call to mind the many ways in which you are truly fortunate. When you're in a state of mind of appreciation, of gratitude, you're not nervous, you're not anxious, you're not fearful. The two cannot coexist. Become aware of mental chatter, that internal monologue that you have going on in your head all the time. Don't beat yourself up over mistakes you've made (the second arrow). Learn how to rise above it and see the world the way it should be. To contact Dr. Srikumar Rao You can reach out to Dr. Rao on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website, The Rao Institute. For more on how self-awareness and gratitude can help you be a better leader, start with these: Blog: Time to Add Gratitude to Your Life—And Your Company's Culture! Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose! Podcast: Danielle Grant—Authentic, Ethical, Caring And More Effective Leadership Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink with Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon, and I'm your host and your guide. My job is to get you off the brink. We've done this for four years now, and as we approach our 400th session, I'm still in awe of how many wonderful people there are to share with you so you can see, feel, and think in new ways. Remember, we decide with the heart and the eyes and then the head comes into play. So, how can I introduce you to this wonderful man, Dr. Srikumar Rao? Pat Shea, dear friend, said I must have him on our podcast. Now this is important. So let me give you a little bit of background so you know why his perspective is so important for you as our listener to better understand. Dr. Srikumar Rao is a speaker, former business school professor and head of the RAO Institute. You should look it up. It's a great website based out of New York. He's also an executive coach to senior business executives whom he helps find deeper meaning and engagement in their work. This is a theme, a recurring theme. Now, it isn't work that gives you purpose; it's finding deeper meaning in your work. Dr. Rao's programs have helped thousands of executives, professionals and entrepreneurs all over the world achieve quantum leaps in effectiveness, resilience and overall happiness. Like, you know, there's a whole body here. Graduates of his workshops have become more creative and more inspiring leaders in some of the world's most successful companies. He helps leaders around the globe transform their lives so that they can experience abundant joy no matter what comes their way. He is a Ted speaker, an author and creator of the pioneering course, Creativity and Personal Mastery. Dr. Srikumar Rao, please tell the audience better than I can your absolutely wonderful story for the audience. There are two stories that are going to come together today. One is Dr. Rao's own personal journey, and it is a wonderful role model for you yourself, and then what he developed to tell others through their journey so that they don't get stuck or stalled on the brink. Remember, today people are on the brink, and they get off it because they have an aha moment, an epiphany. They begin to see things through a fresh lens. And that's why I want to share with you, Dr. Srikumar Rao. Please, who are you? What is your journey? Dr. Srikumar Rao: Thank you, Andi. My pleasure. Let me share the brief or the briefer version of my journey. I grew up in India. We were a middle class family. I was a physics major and then I came to the US. I came to Columbia to do my PhD. I had no interest whatsoever in doing a PhD, but I had a huge interest in coming to the United States of America. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you want to come to America, it's a very good idea to come on somebody else's nickel if you can manage it. And here were all these great universities saying, Mr. Rao, come do a PhD. We will give you a fellowship. That means money. So I said, Yes, I'll do a PhD. So I came to Columbia because it was in New York, which seemed good. I did my PhD in marketing because at that time, Columbia was the world's best business school for marketing. So that's how my life went. I was drifting. I got a job with Warner Communications and there were a series of lucky breaks as a result of which I rose spectacularly fast. I got a big project, which normally would not have been given to me, but my boss had a personal emergency. His boss had to go to Europe on a long scheduled trip. So I got to do it. So I advised on the marketing strategy for a book, which went on to be a movie, which went on to become an all-time blockbuster. In fact, even today, after more than 50 years, it's on the list of 50 top grossing movies of all time. This was the original Exorcist. Ah, so that was my career. And I rose rapidly up the ranks. And at the ripe age of 22, I was head of corporate research for Warner Communications, reporting directly to the president. I got burnt out by corporate politics. So I thought I'd go to the academia where everyone was imbued with a quest for pure knowledge and politics did not exist. I was sadly mistaken. So then I got stuck in a university environment while my colleagues who remained in corporate now moved on to great financial success and hierarchical positions of authority. And I was stuck plodding along. And I thought I had such great education, such a wonderful early start, and I blew it all. I wasted my life. I'm done. You know, it's over. I blew it. So I was not depressed, but pretty down on my life. I'd been doing a lot of reading, spiritual biography, mysticism, a lot of biography which took me to a wonderful place. And I came back to the real world and it sucked. And I remember thinking, if all of this is useful only if you're sitting quietly thinking peaceful thoughts, but not when you came to the hurly burly, then it's useless. Somehow I knew that wasn't true. I knew that this was very valuable. Maybe even the only thing that was valuable. I just hadn't figured out how to make use of it. So one day, I got my bright idea, which is, why don't I take the teachings of the world's great masters, strip them of religious, cultural and other connotations and adapt them so that they're acceptable to intelligent people in a post-industrial society. And the thought of doing that made me come alive.My process up to then, I was a marketing guy. So every time I got a bright idea, I'd ask, will others be interested? Is there a market for it? And if I thought there was, I'd develop that idea, otherwise I'd drop it. This is the first time I didn't ask the question. My initial thoughts were, I teach MBAs. We all know what motivates MBAs. Nobody is going to end up enrolling for the course, but that is okay if they did register, God bless them. If they didn't, God bless them. Anyway, I was going to create the course because I needed it for me. So I did, it did well. I moved it to Columbia Business School in 1999 and it exploded. It was the only course at Columbia Business School, which is a university-wide draw. I had students from law school, from business school, from the School of International Public Affairs, from journalism, teachers college, all over the place. And Columbia is a big international school. So people from other business schools came to Columbia on exchange and they took it and they went back and said, Hey, you gotta take this course. It's great. So it traveled. I taught it at Columbia, obviously. I taught it at London Business School, at Kellogg, at Berkeley, at Imperial College. And then I spun it out and started teaching it privately. And it got a tremendous amount of publicity. You know, it was in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, Forbes Business. Andi Simon: You have fallen onto a diamond. Yes. And you're polishing. So where did that take you? Dr. Srikumar Rao: So that's how it all started. And in the meantime, I became an executive coach because people viewed my videos. They watched my TED talks and said, I want to work with you. So I became an executive coach with a global clientele by default. I have a unique niche in coaching, Andi. And my niche is I coach successful people who really want to have an outsized impact on the world, but they also have a spiritual bent, and they want to infuse that into every part of their life. That's my coaching sandbox. Andi Simon: When you think of this as a podcast or a video podcast, the audience is saying, how does one do that? Is that something you can share with them? How can they begin to, it's the same words that you are using to see, feel and think in new ways about themselves because you said something important. These are executives who don't just want to make a living, they want to transform others in the world in what they're doing. They have purpose and meaning. How does one do that? Dr. Srikumar Rao: Well, the answer to that, Andi, is very simple. You begin that process of transformation inside. In other words, you have to undergo personal transformation before you can become effective at helping others on the journey. If someone tells me, I want to be an inspiring leader, I tell them, you're pretty well advanced on the wrong path. Because when you say, I want to be an inspiring leader, it's all about you. I want to. And what you're really saying, if you examine it, is, I want people to do what I would like them to do which perhaps they don't want to do. So I got to figure out how to get people to do what I want them to do. And they don't want to do what I want them to do because I got to learn how to manipulate them. I'm being deliberately provocative, but there's more than a grain of truth in what I've just shared with you. So the way to become an inspiring leader is to be personally inspired by a vision, which is a grand one, which brings a greater good to a greater community. And you have tremendous flexibility in defining both the greater good and the greater community. But if you find something which draws you so strongly that you're willing to devote, if not your whole life, at least a big chunk of your life to it, and it brings a greater good to a greater community, and you learn how to communicate that vision, then whoever comes in touch with you will become inspired. You'll become an inspiring leader by default. You know, when Ghandi set out on his journey, he never said, “I want to be an inspiring leader. I want tens of thousands, millions of people to follow me now.” He said, “The passport laws are unjust and I will not let them stand.” And he was a British-trained attorney. He had verbal skills and he used whatever talents he had to mobilize support for the passport laws. “Laws are unjust and I will not let them stand.” And later on when he led the war against colonial rule in India, and in the process of doing that, he did in fact become an inspiring leader who, and even 80 years after his death, there are millions of people worldwide who were influenced by his ideas. That's how you become an inspiring leader. The journey of transformation always begins between your ears. Andi Simon: This is so both brilliant and appropriate. I have three leadership academies. The word “leading” requires us to have followers and followers who hear you, understand what you're asking of them, but hear it in a way which takes them and inspires them. Not just to be tactical and practical, but to have a bigger reason for doing something. Dr. Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. Andi Simon: In the words. Purpose and meaning have become trivialized in today's world. Dr. Srikumar Rao: That's true. Andi Simon: In “the great breakup,” people are saying to corporate: “Unless I have meaning in work, I don't need to work there.” But I'm not sure they know how to find that purpose and meaning, and what those words actually mean. I know you have some courses and you have a book in the process. Is this a collective experience, a personal one? How do people begin to discover themselves? Dr. Srikumar Rao: It's both. See, what happens is, in the very syllabus of my course, I state, “This is a program which will profoundly change your life. And if it doesn't, we have both failed.” What do you mean, it'll change my life? But it really does. Consider where I've drawn my material: from the words of hte great masters. So what happens is, as you undergo this journey, you change, and as you change, you recognize that you're not in the business of creating followers. You are in the business of helping everyone you run across, improve their position in life. More precisely, raise their level of consciousness. And the reason you raise their level of consciousness is because that's your path in life. In the process of helping them raise their level of consciousness, you're really working on yourself in raising your level of consciousness. Because in my book, Andi, the only thing you ever do in life is, you work on yourself, and everything you're given by the universe—your partner, your children, your job, your career, your business—they're tools. You use those tools as skillfully as you can. But in the process of doing that, what you're really doing is, you're working on yourself. And that's the only thing you ever do in life. You work on yourself. Andi Simon: You came about this by struggling through other avenues. You knew you really didn't want to go into marketing, but you did really well in it. You left and joined a university and you did well, but not financially well. And then all of a sudden you had an epiphany. Those master courses opened your mind to a whole other way of thinking. Do people have to go through a similar kind of journey? Is there a pathway that starts earlier that can help them? Or do we have to experience life first? Dr. Srikumar Rao: It's a combination, Andi. There is no must. Each person has a unique path in life. I've had people who've taken my program say, “Your course completely changed my life.” And they didn't have any dramatic reversals or breakthrough switch catapult. They just examined what I said, and it made sense to them and they adopted it. And others have to have their head beaten by life before they start recognizing the way I've been doing it is all wrong. So there is no one size fits all. It's a uniquely individual journey. Andi Simon: It's interesting as I'm listening to you, because my third book has just gotten published, it comes out in September. It's a good book. It's called Women Mean Business. It's a great book. I think all my books are great books. But in the process, I'm now at a phase saying, what's next? Business is very good. We picked up a great client. We're going to study the meaning of life for older adults and what is quality. I mean, it's really cool work, but there is another piece, and I share that with the listeners and yourself about what matters as you reach a particular stage in our lives. I'm not growing younger and the past has been a delicious one for me. I've had a great life, great family. But you're raising that question of what's that larger purpose, meaning something beyond tactical and practical, something that can really lift up and lift up others. While people have said that to me, I'm not quite sure what that meant. And I'm not sure I can touch it and feel it, but you are saying something which is, maybe I should come and wander through your course with you and begin to understand it and begin to see it in a bigger picture. You're smiling at me. Dr. Srikumar Rao: I would be delighted. Andi Simon: It's funny because Pat and I were talking about this just a week or so ago, and Pat is very interested in having me deliver my course in Nashville. And she is a dynamo, as you know. And she wants it so strongly, and I'm not opposed to it, that we might very well conduct a live program in Nashville. We are still working out dates and details and so on, but it very well could happen. Dr. Srikumar Rao: But aren't you in New York? Andi Simon: I am in New York. Dr. Srikumar Rao: So am I in New York? So maybe there's a New York version that we can do, because I can't. Andi Simon: That's also possible. I've conducted the course in New York. Yes. So a big advantage of doing it in Nashville is that Pat is a strong supporter and an anchor. But I also think Pat is seeing it as a bigger thing. If she has, I don't know, 25, 30, 40 people who she touches, how can she elevate all of them to a higher level? Dr. Srikumar Rao: That's the whole point. Exactly. Correct. Andi Simon: She wants to spread your pixie dust so that those folks have more joy in life. I think you say on your website, life is a short journey, let's make sure we have joy and it feels purposeful and takes us to another place. I'm curious, I'm an explorer. People said I'm a futurist, which I didn't know, but I'm always looking forward to see how fast change is going to affect us and what's strong about it and what's weak about it. What do you see coming next, both from a philosophical perspective? Life is changing and quickly, and as a result of what is happening outside, I'm finding that there are many people who are recognizing that the real journey is between our ears, as you say, not outside. Now, I'm not in a position to say whether this is a trend in the product population. Certainly the persons who seek me out are persons who have already started that inner journey, otherwise they wouldn't have sought me out in the first place. So there are more of them than ever before. But are there more of them because I'm getting better known and there are more videos of mine floating around? Or is this a trend that's something I cannot comment on? Well, but either way, you're serving your need. Remember, it's not about I, it's about what they need and how you begin to open up a doorway into a different view of their lives at a time where we're all doing it. When I'm working with our folks about preparing for the future, you know, humble perspectives, humans need to see the future. If they're going to live today, what you do is give them a way of being excited about that future. The past has passed. So what's coming next and how do we capitalize on it? How do we enjoy it? Because it's coming. I've become a big fan of ChatGPT. And I just did a podcast with someone who said, “Oh, I haven't even touched it or tried it.” I said, “So before you criticize it, go explore it, be an explorer because it is here and it's going to be transformative.” It is here and it's going to change how we get things done. Is that bad? I don't know. And that's not the only, whether blockchain is here to shrink stuff or, you know, 3D printing. If you put 'em all together, the world is in a very transformative moment. It will not be the same as yesterday, but I don't know what it's going to be tomorrow. So go ahead. Dr. Srikumar Rao: Think back 20 years ago, you hardly had the internet then. And I can remember if you went from place A to place B, you actually had to have a map. And think how things have changed in just the last 20 years. Andi Simon: And it is accelerating. Yes. I think that's actually exciting for my grandchildren who will see the world in a very different way. One of the things that came through the pandemic is a good deal of research on the distinction between virtual and real. And, this is a profound philosophical question. About what is virtual and what are you and I'm not real, because we're doing this virtually. Are video games for people, adults, not part of their reality. Kids talk about avatars and do-overs. It's because they've been well trained by their video games. That's a perfectly normal response to something. Dr. Srikumar Rao: Completely. I agree. Andi Simon: You've just hit upon a very important issue. You know, what is real? You can have some interesting discussions on that. And, without a perspective of your purpose and your own life here, it's very easy to get into the anger over the changes. Humans don't like change, you know that. As opposed to the joy of the new and the unfamiliar. I do think that we are all going to be changed, whether we like it or not. Who are now writing books and perspectives besides yourself? I'm beginning to identify the transformation in a way that they'll be a part of our masters in 10 years. Dr. Srikumar Rao: Here is the funny thing, Andi. What the great masters said is as relevant today as the time that they said what they did. And this goes all the way from Buddha and Jesus to modern Michael Singer, Ram Hershey, Anthony de Mello, just to name a few. They are every bit as relevant. The essential message does not change because human beings do not change. No true circumstances do change. And there are all kinds of gizmos and toys to distract us. But who we are fundamentally has not changed and will not change. Andi Simon: How true that is. And we are good people, humans who have thrived and survived because of our ability to tell beautiful stories and share extraordinary lives. A couple of things you want the listeners not to forget as you've been thinking about this? We always remember that they remember the ending better than even the beginning. And I'll always remember you coming to Columbia because it was a cheap way to get to the Americas, but apart from that, what don't you want them to forget? Dr. Srikumar Rao: Okay. Let me share some things that I would like every person watching or listening to this to take away. The first thing I would like them to be aware of is that your awareness is like a flashlight. This is very important. What does a flashlight do? A flashlight illuminates whatever you shine it on. Take the flashlight of your awareness and shine it on the chair in which you're sitting. The moment I ask you to do that, you become aware of the pressure of your buttocks on the seat. You feel the fabric or the leather against the back of your thigh. Correct? 30 seconds ago, you were not aware of any of this, but now you are. That's true. Why? Because you've shone the flashlight of your awareness on it. What do we typically do with the flashlight of our awareness? We shine it on the two, three or four things that are problems in our lives. More precisely, we shine it on the two, three or four things that we think are problems in our lives and we've defined them as problems in our life and the 40, 50, 200 things that are pretty damn good about our lives, we never shine the flashlight of our awareness on it. So this slips by in the background unnoticed. You and I are incredibly privileged. We've had books published. We don't have to worry about whether we are going to eat tomorrow. We have a bed to sleep in, a roof over our head. We have competent people who can give us medical attention, should we need it. Any of this is a big deal in a huge chunk of the world outside. But we never shine the flashlight of our awareness on it. So it slips by. So what I advise everyone, my coaching clients, people who take my call: shine the flashlight of your awareness on the many ways in which you're fortunate and blessed. Do it the last thing at night before you go to bed. Do it first thing in the morning. Don't go to the space of there's too much to do and I don't have enough time to do it all. Call to mind the many ways in which you are truly fortunate. Bathe in it, marinate in it, value in it, soak in it. It is my hope that everybody listening to this will be in the default emotional domain of appreciation, gratitude. Because when you are there, you're not nervous, you're not anxious, you're not fearful. The two cannot coexist. Andi Simon: That's a very important lesson to learn. You have the flashlight of your awareness, shine it wisely. Dr. Srikumar Rao: The second thing is for them to become aware of something called mental chatter, which is an internal monologue that you have going on in your head all the time. It begins right up when you get up in the morning. It is with you throughout the day and is with you when you go to bed. And sometimes it's so loud that it prevents you from going to sleep. The kind of thing that says, what time is it? Do I have to get up? I don't want to get up. Let me hit the snooze button. I can get another 10 minutes of sleep. All of that is mental chatter. It's always been there. It's like an unwelcome relative who's shown up in your house and you can't kick him out. So we ignore it, suppress it. We work around it. We do our level best to live a life despite our mental shadow. Huge mistake. And it's a mistake because we construct our lives with our mental shadow. We think we live in a real world. We don't. We live in a construct. And we built that construct. We made it out of our mental chatter. Let me illustrate. One of the more powerful teachings of the Buddha is the parable of the second arrow. The Buddha asks his disciple, If an arrow would've hit you in the arm, would it not be very painful? Yes, Lord. Very painful. And if a second arrow would've hit you exactly where the first arrow hit you, would it not be even more painful? Yes, Lord, it'll be even more painful. And then the Buddha asks a surprising question. Why then do you shoot the second arrow? So that needs some explanation. So let me tell you a story. There was this woman, which is a good mother of a son who grew up to be 16. And he got his provisional driver's license. And one day he wanted to show off that he had his license. So he went to his mom and said, Hey, I'm going to go out with some friends and can I take the car? And she said, of course not. You know, you just got your driver's license. Where do you have to go out from? No, no, no, mom, you don't understand. I've got to take the car. She said, okay, I'll drop you. No, no, no. You don't understand. I've got to take the car and you have to not be there. I was okay if I can't be there, that's fine. There's Uber. No, no, no. You don't understand. I have to take the car. Didn't you hear me? I have to take the car and you have to not be there. And the mother says no, but you know how children are. He begged, he pleaded. And bit by bit, she felt herself giving way. She took promises, you're not going to drink. No, no, I'm not going to drink. You're going to call. Yes. You'll be back by 10 o'clock. Yes. So reluctantly she gives him the car keys. And of course once he gets the keys, he forgets all about his promises, he doesn't call, breaks curfew and has too many beers. On the way back, he has an accident and his mother is with him in the hospital while he is being operated on. And then when he is wheeled to the recovery room, she dashes home to have a quick shower and change so she can go back to the hospital. And at that time a friend calls and says, how could you possibly have given him the car? You are not a mother, you are a murderer. Now, are you shocked that a friend would say something like that at this juncture? Probably. Would you be less shocked if I said, that's not what a friend said, it's what she told herself. That is the second arrow. It's bad enough having a son who's recovering from an accident, and you don't know what the after effects are. Does it make matters better to tell yourself that you are a poor mother and in fact, maybe a murderer? Of course not. No. But we do it all the time. That is the second arrow. And the second arrow is always delivered by means of mental shadow. Let me repeat that. The second arrow is always delivered by means of mental shadow. No matter what situation you're facing, Andi, your mental chatter about that situation is making it at least in order of magnitude worse. For most of my clients, if I can get them to stop at the second arrow, they'd be way ahead of the game. By the time they recognize what they're doing to themselves, they're on their fifth, sixth, 253rd arrow. Andi Simon: Oh, I know. My daughter is a special ed teacher, and she sometimes tells me, If only I could work with the parents, the kids could turn out far better than the parents working with the kids. And as I'm listening to you, that mother-son story is a very appropriate one to think about. Where and how do we create the right action, values and self-care so that we can deal with the situations that come, in a very positive fashion with control over it. And that friend who said, You're a murderer, was right in some ways, but that was less important than that it was the mother. Dr. Srikumar Rao: So those are the things I'd like to leave your listeners with. Andi Simon: If they want to reach you, your book is on Amazon? Dr. Srikumar Rao: Yes, it is. So the book is called Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots: The Movers and Shakers' Guide to Unstoppable Success. It is virtual and we'll be starting up live courses again, but all those details are being worked out. They can go to my website, which is www.theraoinstitute.com and sign up for it. And then they will be signed up to get information about that. And then they'll be on my list. They'll get my weekly blog, and they'll also get information about my courses and programs. Andi Simon: I love it. This has been a very heartfelt conversation. I want to  thank Pat Shea for insisting that I have Srikumar on for my listeners, I know you are sitting there saying, This is really important. I can already imagine some of my listeners, I know who they are, saying, Hmm, am I shooting myself with the second arrow or am I able to rise above it and see the world the way it should be? Dr. Srikumar Rao: Yes. It's hard, but it's important. Andi Simon: Let me thank you. And I think I'm going to sign up and get your blogs, maybe even take your course. Dr. Srikumar Rao: Thank you, Andi, it'll be a pleasure having you. And if Pat is your friend, you can be sure she'll reach out to you. Andi Simon: To our listenerers, thank you again for making us among the top 5% of global podcasts. But most of all, thank you for coming, sharing, and enjoying. Our job is to get you off the brink. And today you can really hear why we are both anxious for you to see, feel and think in new ways so you don't get stuck or stalled. And I urge you, listen to Dr. Srikumar Rao's podcast, share it, give it to others. The transcript will be up on the blog that we post. I think there's some deep thoughts here that are well worth remembering, thinking about, reflecting on, and maybe taking to the next step. Dr. Srikumar Rao: Yeah. And they can watch my TED talk, Andi. Andi Simon: Yes. I will make sure that's on there as well. Thank you. You've been such fun. Thank you all. Thank you all for coming. Have a wonderful healthy day. Please see the world as a gift every day as a gift to you.

Hear why a big part of life is having a life worth living, even at work. Today I spoke with Lori Pine, a 25-year corporate VP turned certified executive leadership coach. What Lori teaches us is something we maybe all innately know but often don't recognize: that a big part of life is having a life worth living. To many executives on that hamster wheel, this is a big statement. Yes, moving up the ladder and advancing your career are certainly worth pursuing, but we shouldn't overlook the importance of self-care. As Lori tells us, creating a community, finding soul connections, doing simple acts of kindness, and just simply getting enough rest are all part of the path to a happy life. Listen in, learn and share! Watch and listen to our conversation here The answer is within, not without In our conversation today, Lori touched on several key insights we can all learn from: Corporations have a responsibility to enable their employees, men and women, to have a life worth living. Part of that is having community, which goes beyond company-organized ERGs [Employee Resource Groups]. Employees have earned the right to control the environment in which they are working. Employers are waking up and seeing the newfound negotiating power of employees. We're in a cultural transformation where your behavioral health, your mental health, your well-being are really part of your job. Workers have more autonomy and power than they think they do. Self-care is more than a mani-pedi. We can learn to take care of ourselves in many ways that are life-changing. To connect with Lori, you can find her on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and her website, loripine.com. For more on finding joy in your work and your life, we recommend these: Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life? Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Good day to all of our fans out there. I'm so excited to do another podcast. Remember, you have brought us to the top 5% of global podcasts, and so I can't thank you enough for being such a great share because you take the podcasts and share them with others and they get opened all across the world. So my thank you. Today, I'm On the Brink with Andi Simon. I have a wonderful guest for us. Lori Pine is a beautiful woman who's here to tell you about how she can help you do what I like to help you do: see, feel, and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. Let me tell you a little bit about Lori and then she'll tell you about her own journey because you're going to be fascinated by how life is not in a straight line, as you know, and hers curves and twists and so can yours. So who is Lori Pine? Lori is a 25-year corporate VP, turned certified executive leadership coach. And that's not without importance here. She helps female executives establish healthy leadership pattern practices with the goal of creating thriving professional and personal lives, working with global powerhouse brands like Anheuser-Busch, a Coca-Cola company, and Campbell's Soup. Lori learned firsthand the preciousness of being a woman on the rise. And today with Lori's guidance, clients can develop curated action plans that prioritize self-awareness, empowerment, and even a little self-care, allowing them to spend more time enjoying their lives and this time not feeling stuck. So she's going to tell you her journey because it's a really cool one, and then we're going to talk about how she can help you see, feel, and think in new ways so you get off that stuck-in place. And whether you're an executive or a rising executive, you're going to find it very interesting to listen to Lori. Lori, thank you for joining me today. Lori Pine: Thank you so much Andi for having me. I'm so glad to be here. Andi Simon: Tell our listeners: who is Lori Pine, how did you get to where you are now? Because the journey is an interesting one, important for them. It tells people who it is that we're listening to. So who is Lori? Lori Pine: So I'm a girl from Maine. I grew up in pretty humble beginnings. Small town, one traffic light. My family owned a restaurant and so I grew up with a really strong work ethic, close Irish Catholic family. And I couldn't wait to leave. I had big dreams. I wanted to see a city, I wanted to see the world. And as soon as I was done with college, I was off on a plane and I really had aspirations to be a corporate VP, to climb a corporate ladder, to see the inner workings of business and companies and to have an impact, to work with smart people. I wanted to work on big projects and all of that, to experience what was out of the state line of the state of Maine. And I really got to do that. And from Maine, I went to Tampa and then I would go on to seven more states and it was a tremendous career, in working for three really big global brands and the training that came with that and the people and the friendships and the experiences. I mean, I got to do everything from go to the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 to the 2000 Olympics in Sydney, Australia to every imaginable NCAA  final four to the Super Bowl that you can imagine with some of these big brands. And in the meantime, I really wanted to be this female who made other female relationships and helped other women rise. But you know, if you think about it in the nineties and the two thousands, this was kind of a new concept and there was a lot of competition and there was a lot of, who's going to get the job? Is it you? Is it me? And with finite positions, it wasn't always friendly fire. It's a limited number. We can operate in an environment like that if all we do is work, but that's not all we do. We're human and we're having personal lives as well. So I would go on to get married. I would have two children, and then I would also go on to get divorced and become a single mom for seven years until I ended up remarrying. And there were times in there where there were some really dark times where I was crying myself to sleep at night, not knowing who I could turn to, not knowing who I could trust. Then 11 years ago, I lost my mom. When your world starts to kind of fall out beneath you, you start looking around saying, where do I turn? And I don't know if I just wasn't aware of the coaching industry or they just weren't presenting themselves to me, but I wish that I had had a coach who I could have confided in and trusted, who understood what it was like to be in my industry and in my workspace, to really help me get through some of those dark times, sleepless nights, knotted stomachs, big presentations. But I didn't have that. So learning to navigate all of that on my own brought me to an experience two years ago where I was in this corporate VP role. We were in a global pandemic and my youngest son was really struggling through the pandemic. It became kind of this pivotal moment for my family where I actually made a decision to become a stay-at-home mom when he was 17 years old. And it was one of those experiences and moments in time where I never could have predicted it. If you had told me it was going to happen, I would've told you, there's no way. But here I was and it made all the difference in the world for my child and for our family. And it gave me some space to hire a coach and to say, what do I want to do next in my career? And so here we are today. Andi Simon: How interesting, because you're talking about your perspective of that rising star in a corporate environment that challenges, amongst others, men and women, for fewer and fewer slots. Sometimes they complain that the pipeline has nobody in it, and sometimes they don't realize that they jumped off because it wasn't exactly a great journey to get someplace. And did you really need to be there, but sometimes you don't know who you are and what you're looking for. And that sounds like your epiphany, which was, oh man, where am I? Why am I doing this? Is this really me or what I want to do? Your aha moment was a catalytic moment with your son and that transformed him and transformed you. Because now you are a life executive coach, correct? Lori Pine: Yes. Andi SImon: And in that training, I have a hunch, you went through your own self discovery, did you not? Lori Pine: Yes, for sure. And I have been on a journey of self discovery for probably two decades. You know, when you go through a divorce and your children are two and four, you kind of say, I need to be self-aware of what is happening here. So it had been almost a two decade journey of self-discovery. But in my executive coaching program at Rutgers that I went through about a year and a half ago, it took me through some really profound exercises with my cohort and the instructors and you're taught to really ask these profound questions. And some of those questions are like, wow, unnerving. So yes, it gets to some really deep stuff. Andi Simon: Well, sometimes we can only move forward not by going backward, but by going inside. It was in that room inside. And I have a hunch in your executive coaching now, you help women do the same type of dig inside to know not the past, but where the future is coming. Am I right? Lori Pine: Absolutely. You know, I think the therapy field really works on the past. That's not my expertise. It's an inside job and that's what we really try to cultivate.  Andi Simon: Well, in that process, what are some of the things that you're discovering? You don't have to cite anybody, but I have a hunch that the process itself is a bit abstract for our listeners or our viewers. So what does an executive coach like yourself do? You're not helping them grow the business, you're helping them grow themselves. Lori Pine: Yes. Grow themselves, understand themselves. You know, who am I, who really am I as a person? And where am I willing to bend and where am I not willing to bend? Where are my boundaries? For a busy, either rising star or executive, where's my self care? I can't be all work, I can't be all mother, I can't be all wife. I need some self care of my own. And, what does that look like? And I really talk to my clients about that., I'm not just talking about a day at the spa or a mani-pedi, I'm talking about your boundaries, your ability to say yes and your ability to say no, that are to things that are meaningful to you. Your ability to be able to discern when somebody's taking advantage of you and to be able to identify your ability to raise your hand and ask for help and not to see that as a sign of weakness. Also, your ability to be able to speak your truth in a way that's not whining or complaining, but it's your truth. And to do that so that it comes across empowered. And so just those things alone can be impactful and change a trajectory for somebody. One of the things that really was important to me as I built this coaching practice was, I really thought about the young woman I was who was crying myself to sleep at night, who didn't know where to turn, who was so busy that she could hardly eat lunch at my desk with a Diet Coke and a bag of pretzels. And to think about that time-starved, energy-starved person who's probably now Googling at night or watching something on TikTok for a solution. But what she really needs is somebody to hold her hand who's been through it and knows what she's experiencing. And so that's really what I've tried to do. Andi Simon: You know, you mentioned to me before we started about resilience, a tremendous amount of discussion about women's resilience now, and you had some ideas about how you help them believe that they can be resilient. You clearly found a pathway that wasn't easy. What are some of the things that stressed-out women should think about to allow them with or without a coach to begin to resolve some of these complexities? Some can afford a coach, some may not even know where there's one, as you did. But, I have a hunch you can give them some wisdom. Lori Pine: Yes. You know, I think it's important to have a group of like-minded women that you talk to, that you surround yourself with, whether it's a networking group or a peer group in your work. Lots of HR departments have employee resource groups to be a part of something where there's like-minded women that you're talking to a friend group, where you're going out and you're talking at night and you can share: Hey, here's what's going on. Those soul connections can be just so enriching to our whole life. Andi, you have those groups in your life. I know you do. So that is the opposite of isolation. You know, when we stay isolated, there's very little room for resilience because we stay really stuck. So to get out of the isolation, to be in connectivity, to be in collaboration with women who are very like-minded, that helps with resilience. Also, a simple act of resilience is to rest. Sometimes that's very counterintuitive for us. We don't want to rest. We want to keep on going because that to-do list is so long, but simply getting eight hours of sleep can change everything for us. The science of well-being, that's the most popular course I took. I had to. The Denver Mental Health Center is my client and they said, before you work with us, you have to take the science of well-being. As I listened in…remember these are Yales, they worked really hard to get into Yale and this is their most popular course, because they're depressed. I laughed. So what does she teach them in the science of well-being? This is all in your hands. This is not that hard. One of the first things is acts of kindness. They gave people money and said, You can keep it or give it away. The people who gave it away had a huge soar in their well-being. And those who kept it had nothing.  And they did it in Africa. And the same thing happened. It was human, not a particular culture. And then they found that not only acts of kindness, but gratitude are things that we know. You send out three notes at the end of the day and your self-worth goes up and their happiness goes up as well. It doesn't take much to have a gratitude diary. Oprah will sell you one for $29. Or you can just do things that give you gratitude. Like you're saying, you must eat and sleep. The human body needs peace and they need exercise. And it is a mystery to us why we've put ourselves in such a bad state. Bad enough. We've lived alone during the pandemic and we haven't been able to get out and have community, but we really haven't realized that it puts us into a depressed state. We have no one to talk to. Humans are hurt animals. We need to have other humans. We need to celebrate with them. Share with them. And, I have a hunch, both you and I, between our spouses and our family, realize that the community doesn't fatigue us. It enriches us. So one resilience tool I have is, build a community of friends you can trust, and enjoy them. Yes. And don't live alone if you can help it. Andi Simon: Agreed 100%. You know, the opposite, the end of it gets to be burnout. And we're hearing so much in the media and Harvard Business Review about these studies on burnout and that seems to be like the end of the scale. In terms of this resilient scale, when we get to that point of burnout, it's as though we've left ourselves so untended for so long trying to please everybody else that there's nothing left in our gas tank. So at some point, we have to stop and say, how do I put fuel back in my own gas tank? There has to be a flag in the ground with all of the things that you just said and a sense of worthiness that says, I'm worth it. Lori Pine: I am disturbed that corporations, like the ones you talked about, whether it's Anheuser-Busch or Coca-Cola, don't realize that they have a responsibility to allow and enable their employees, men and women, to have a life worth living. And part of that is having some time, some community. Those ERGs [Employee Resource Groups] are far too formal to be communities. People are getting community fatigue. This is not a mystery for them either. And so a little note of gratitude coming from a senior to a junior person is not so terrible. And beginning to get people to have a little lunch together and just sit and talk about life or the baseball game with women and not to keep them out of that beer party on Friday night that the guys go out to. Bring them in, even though they have to go home and watch their kid play soccer. I mean, there's a time now for a cultural transformation. Employees have earned the right to control the environment in which they are working. Employers, if we want to keep the talent better, wake up to see this is a new world. And if you don't take stock soon and do something, does anyone at the large companies actually think about your behavioral health, your mental health, your well-being as part of their job? Andi Simon: Yes. I think that they did. And I think that there were certainly initiatives for that, but it became very much a mixed message. So on the one hand, they're thinking about it: there's programming, there's initiatives, and then on the other hand, every two years, like clockwork, there was a reorg. And there was a restructuring and people were let go and it created such anxiety. Were you going to be let go? Were you going to have a job? Were you not going to have a job? But the flip side of that was, were you going to have a job without all of the support of the people who were just let go? And so every two years you were going through this learning curve of either a new role or learning to operate with fewer people. And this whole mantra of, We can do more with less. And, you can until you burn out. And so it always contradicted the other. And that became just an expectation that this reorg was coming, this downsize was coming.  Lori Pine: That all of corporate America seems to buy. Andi Simon: You know, with the advent of AI and the fear that this is going to lead to job changes, if not job losses, I think we're going through the next transformation, which makes the work you're doing for women and perhaps for men too, extremely timely. And how do we prepare for them?  I teach a program on the fast-changing times. How do you adapt to thrive in fast-changing times? Because the times are not getting slower. And if you don't understand why change, humans hate change, they like their habits. They would rather do yesterday's today rather than think about learning something new. So that's who we are. Now the question is: the times are changing and now as you look forward into the future, do you see anything coming that you can share, other than how you're going to help people to survive in this? Lori Pine: Yeah. I think that openness, willingness, kind of setting aside everything we think we know, is how we're going to operate because it is coming so fast. I mean, if you just think about what's happened in the last decade, how much technology has changed, how much all of our working styles have changed, what the pandemic alone did to working styles. Now hybrid work, hybrid work in-office work. I mean, every day there's a new article about hybrid versus remote versus a hundred percent in the office and which way is it going? So I believe it's willingness and openness and the more we can educate ourselves, certify ourselves, and be willing to pivot, it better prepares us. Andi Simon: And maybe a little executive coaching could help you prepare to pivot. Every two years for the reorg and now the reorg's every day. Life is a reorg.  Lori Pine: It does feel like that. And if you look at the headlines, somebody's reorging. Some major companies are reorging every single day. 10,000 jobs, 12,000 jobs, 25,000 jobs. So it's happening right here. And people are afraid right now. So how do people preserve themselves, help themselves? Andi Simon: Wonderful. Lori, this has been such a pleasure. Can you share with our listeners even two or three things you don't want them not to forget? Lori Pine: They have more autonomy and power than they think that they do. The answer is within, it is not without, it is within. And self-care is more than a mani-pedi. We can learn to take care of ourselves in many ways that are life-changing, Andi Simon: Those are just beautiful. I was hoping you would say those for our listeners and our viewers. You know, Lori has gone through her own great transformation. Her journey has been not without bumps and bruises. And now she's here to help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can get resilient. But the times are changing and how do we prepare ourselves for something that people by and large, humans hate change. Lori, how can they reach you if they'd like to talk to you? Lori Pine: You can come to my website, lori pine.com, where I have five self-care habits you did not learn in the boardroom. And you can follow me on Instagram at Lori Pine. Andi Simon: I think that's just great. The joyful CEO I think is so much fun. For my listeners, thank you for coming, as always. I truly appreciate it. Many of you have gotten my book Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business or On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. So many of you have called and emailed and thanked us for the wisdom we try to share. My new book comes out in September. You can pre-order it now. And I urge you to, Amazon loves pre-orders. It's called Women Mean Business, and it's under Andi Simon. And it is a time for us to realize that women do mean business, not simply because they're moving up that ladder, but because they're building businesses that are productive and financially very remunerative and really successful in different ways. They lead differently, they see the world differently. So we have 500+ insights from leading women in that book, ready to help you turn a page and change your life. It's a time for change and you're going to enjoy it. Lori has a great smile. Lori, thank you for coming today.

Are you on LinkedIn? These days it seems everybody is. Even if they're not using it correctly, they're on it, so much so that it's now become a platform of constant self-promotion. But that's not how it started in 2003 when it was launched as a networking platform for professionals. So how can we use LinkedIn more correctly, and productively, and not fall into the trap of just using it to sell ourselves? My guest today, JD Gershbein, a true LinkedIn expert and thought leader (although he objects to that term), will tell us. And, he's an anthropologist, like myself! Do listen in. Watch and listen to our conversation here Key takeaways from our conversation today: JD helps people anticipate and prepare for change, increase their change competency with LinkedIn, and keep an eye toward the future. “Content” could be the most overused word on LinkedIn right now. We're at a point now where so much of what we do on LinkedIn is geared towards selling. People are being sold. They're pre-conditioned for a pitch. And that's not the way to do LinkedIn. You'll sell more products and services on LinkedIn by not selling products and services on LinkedIn. The real value of LinkedIn is that it gives you an opportunity to individuate, to put yourself out there as an authority figure, to build a brand.  If you're going to build a brand, it takes a lot of hard work and you have to stick to it. There is no playbook with LinkedIn. Do what feels right to you. That's how you start to meander into meaningful conversations and people get interested in you. To connect with JD, you can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter, his website and by email jd@owlishcommunications.com. For a deeper dive into LinkedIn and personal branding, check out these 3 podcasts: JD Gershbein—How Is LinkedIn Your New World For Building Networks? Lisa Staff and Deevo Tindall—Social, Video, Digital: How Can You Build A Personal Brand Today? Cass McCrory—You Have A Great Personal Brand To Live Right Now Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. We've been doing this for four years now, and I get such pleasure from bringing you people who can help you see, feel, and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. I don't really want you on the brink and you don't want to stick there either, but sometimes we have to learn new things and how do we better share that than bringing wonderful, wise people to help you do that. Now JD Gershbein is our guest today, and if you look back in my repertoire, we had JD on three years ago, and it was great fun. He redid my LinkedIn profile, which is just beautiful, and I often show people what JD can do for them. But the question for today is, what is JD doing now and what does he see happening?  How can that help you? And most of all, we are all into LinkedIn. I have 12,000 friends. Some people have a hundred thousand friends. They're not exactly my dearest friends, but I'd love to know them better. And JD is going to help us do two things. He's going to talk to us about the next frontier and about LinkedIn style. So what are we going to talk about? Let me tell you about JD first. My first thing is that JD brings a keen sense of observation and distinctive voice to the global stage. That's not inconsequential. He draws upon his background in neuroscience, psychology, and humanities, being, like me, an anthropologist. I so enjoy his interdisciplinarity to offer our listeners depth and breadth of understanding of social media. And that's very important. Having received unanimous acclaim as a LinkedIn strategist, this is a guy who really now bills himself as a professional entertainer. And he's forging new inroads as the architect and impresario of a professional development platform that encompasses a stage show, a review, an original web-based video series, a theatrical podcast, and his own live highly interactive educational events. That's JD with his razor sharp wit, which you'll hear today. And an engaging stage presence. He consistently leaves his audiences wanting more, and you're going to want more. That's why I brought him back. JD, thank you so much for coming today. I am so excited to share you.  JD Gershbein: Thank you. Am I really doing all that stuff? When do I have time to do other stuff?  Andi Simon: You have to remember a little self-care and life is a joy, and I have such joy doing the work we do and you do. But this is important. So JD, you don't have to do your whole journey, but give the listeners a little bit about your, let's say, your LinkedIn journey, and it'll open the stage for what you see happening. I think what's really important is that you share your wisdom and that's why it's so important to hear from you today. Who is JD? JD Gershbein: Well, thank you Andi. And it's good to be back on On the Brink. I'm not sure if I'm on it or off it, but I know I'm somewhere around the brink. And thank you for having me back. Boy, a lot has changed. I mean, the world is moving light years per minute now, isn't it? Keeping up is a challenge, especially for professionals who, since the onset of the pandemic, have been taught by the global world. And what have we learned? What have we learned in three plus years since we were imposed into this exile in the virtual world? I've just been in a period of deep study. Fortunately I was in a position to help a lot of people who postponed or neglected LinkedIn for so many years. And then when the pandemic hit, and I look at the pandemic as one of the great inflection points in human history, certainly in recent years, and with the advent of technology and with new things that are going on in technology all the time, we had to learn this thing. We had to survive, if not thrive in this world. So I was there to pick up a lot of the slack, and the game kind of came to me. And I've learned so much. I learned through my clients. I've learned principles of community building and community management and tribal affiliation through all I've done. And you, of course, being an anthropologist, can attest to the strength of people and how they aggregate and form tightly knit communities. And that's been one of the great observations that I've brought. And it has kind of helped me rewire my platform. So I speak of LinkedIn in entirely different terms these days, Andi. I'm more of a pioneer, and I bring a frontier mentality to it as I always have, because we're never going to settle this thing. It's changing too fast, too dramatically. And just when we think we've got this frontier pegged, there's always another one creeping up behind it. So the gift that I'm bringing now in my study and in my client work is to help people anticipate, prepare for change, increase their change competency with LinkedIn, and keep an eye toward the future. Andi Simon: You know, JD, I have several leadership academies. I've been doing actually one for five years, another for four years. They've all gone virtual and I think that the concept of, how do we adapt in fast changing times is quite relevant for today because people hate change and they fight it. And they weren't quite sure what LinkedIn was at the beginning. But it's changing. They're changing this power of community. How do I share and create a culture that is common? And then what's the new frontier? The topic you said you most like to talk about is LinkedIn…is it the next frontier? Maybe merging historical present day and futuristic perspectives. People have said that I have the best futurist podcast among the top 10. And then, the topic is really appropriate. Let's go back to a little history, a little present, and where you see it's going. It's a perfect way to help our listeners understand LinkedIn. Not for what they thought it was a place to have an identity, but a community. JD Gershbein: Exactly. And the frontier mentality is that we've come across LinkedIn at certain times in our lives. Some people are just getting to it now. I got to it in 2006 when it was really a barren wasteland. There was nothing there. It was echoes in the canyon. And there were a few people in the world who made the move to LinkedIn: specialists, myself included. We all knew who each other was in the world, and nobody was outsourcing us for the work we do today. So we had to kind of settle this thing a little bit. We had to kind of navigate the divide and figure out, like, okay, what is this platform? We were given no instructions. I had nobody like me to show me what to do. I learned this thing on my own, and I did it through rigorous research and observation and extrapolation. So the pioneer mindset is what's behind this. How are we moving people forward? How are we as professionals reconciling the value we bring into the marketplace? And I was meandering around in business at the time I saw this. And what LinkedIn did for me is it gave me an identity in the professional universe. I was doing SEO, which is search engine optimization. I was writing copy for websites at a time when the primary website was more important than social media presence. And it kind of evolved. And I had to wait for the rest of the world to catch up. And, that was the beautiful thing about it. And when the world did catch up, I was the guy coming up in search. So the past of LinkedIn is, and sometimes it's difficult to shake those roots, but it was intentionally a job seeker site at the start. It was in there with the careerbuilder.coms and the monster.coms at a time when the Great Recession was starting back in 2006 when I came to it. And then it moved into business development and people started to use it to sell products and services. And then they started to use it as mentoring platforms and community building platforms. And the LinkedIn groups had taken on dimension and magnitude. They've since become cesspools. Somewhere along the line, people began to overtly and shamelessly self-promote on LinkedIn. And we're at a point now where so much of what we do on LinkedIn is geared towards selling. We're selling people at every turn. People are being sold. They're pre-conditioned for a pitch. And that's not the way to do LinkedIn. I'm on record as saying that you'll sell more products and services on LinkedIn by not selling products and services on LinkedIn. And to build something organically and have your reach, your marketing reach, be organic through your own experience and observation. And that's where we are today. We are seeing a lot of this overt predatory sales behavior. It's offensive, it's intrusive, and it's annoying, and I don't teach LinkedIn that way. And what does the future hold for this? The future holds promise for people that market…well, show up with intention. We have a content war going on right now. Content is everything. People are saying content left and right. It could be the most overused word on LinkedIn right now. Content, content, content. I mean, what is content? If it's not content, it's just musings. And we started to see this at the onset of the pandemic when LinkedIn absorbed a lot of that initial shock, where people who were hungry for connection and to stay top of mind with clients and prospects and colleagues, had to hit LinkedIn, had to hit the Zoom. And that's where they really discovered technology and refashioned it themselves as professionals. Everybody that was coming to me, Andi, was in some level of a rebrand, or they were making a full-on pivot. And I had augmented my service offerings to handle that because it wasn't so much about, “JD, write me a profile” or “JD, teach me how to do LinkedIn.” I felt that they needed to go through an immersive process of self-assessment and introspection to put themselves out there in a way that they would be taken realistically and at face value. And that's been the essence of the work. Andi Simon: You know, as you're talking, I'm jotting down some notes because the direction of LinkedIn is something that we are directing. Is LinkedIn directing it itself? I don't advertise on it, and I'm not quite sure how to optimize it for the books that I have or the forthcoming book or the products that I offer or my consulting services. But I'm bombarded all the time with people who want to have a 30 minute call with me to discuss whatever it is, not knowing whether I need it or I don't need it. And so I too have edged away from seeing it as a good place to support with information, marketing content, the stuff that I love on my website that people come and download, my desire to help the community that Peter Winick formed when the pandemic started to share with them. But I've given up trying to figure out what LinkedIn is doing and what I'm doing, and whether they're aligned or not. Can you help? JD Gershbein: Well, we have seen the arrival of a war, a content war, on LinkedIn. And on one end of that war, you've got the content, or I'm sorry, the creator economy. And on the other side, you've got the attention economy, and it seems like the two shall meet, but creators create. And you've got this incessant drive from so many people, which is really only a small swath of LinkedIn, I should mention, Andi. You've got people creating them, they're writing books. They're writing white papers. They're out there on LinkedIn every day, like correspondents, talking about their professional lives, their honors, their achievements. And on the other side, you've got the attention economy. It's the regular folk who are just laying eyes on LinkedIn to just make sense of it and try to get one good thing to happen. You know, they need a client, they need a break, they need a door opened. And you've got these content creators who kind of espouse a certain way of doing things on LinkedIn. And I'm in that camp.  I do believe that if you're going to go out there and parse your value out on LinkedIn, that you do it in a way that's palatable. That it's not just musings, but it really is in content that will help people build insight. And then you've got people that are just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. It takes a lot to get them to stop.  We're all self-absorbed. We're all into our own thing. We're all trying to carve out our own livelihoods. So when your content or your work intersects with people, that's a win. And if they're able to engage on it, if they're able to help you build awareness through their commentary and introduce you into their community, we're seeing a lot of cross pollination of micro communities now and aggregated folks. And that's what gives you spread on the platform. And the zeitgeist of LinkedIn right now is that there are people who feel that the LinkedIn platform works for a select few, when in fact it's a level playing field. Andi Simon: When I asked you the question, ‘How much of this is ours to create,' whether you're a creator or you're looking for attention, or for a LinkedIn giving us guidance or structure or directing in some fashion, demanding. And I haven't figured that out because I'm never really sure how much LinkedIn is doing or not. And how should people use it for whatever their benefit is. I mean, I am a person who has a product to sell, I get it. But others are thought leaders who want to express their ideas and insights to help others grow. Or you just throw a big rethink conference in. I want to make sure people can see the panels that we had if they couldn't attend. Do you want to share? I'm a sharer.  JD Gershbein: What we make it is what we make it. And there is no playbook, we have to write our own playbooks at this point, Andi. And it's how we superimpose ourself on the platform that works. That's how we settle the frontier and our manner of expression, the mode in which we do it. This has become interesting to me. I call it LinkedIn Style because everybody can learn the best practices. We know we should be polite to people and respectful and courteous. And there's a formality and convention to approaching people. And LinkedIn provides that framework. It basically says, Here's a place for you to put information about yourself. A profile here is the housing, the structure, the physical space or the intangible space for you to go out there and communicate, direct message people, approach them. And how you combine the two has to merge with your own system of doing things. How much risk you want to absorb, how much of yourself you want to put out there. And what I try to do in my teaching and in my work is move people closer to some understanding of LinkedIn that works for them. It's not about what I say or any other person who's in my trade. I, for the record, I've never self-declared as an expert or a thought leader. In fact, I've lost a little fondness for the term “thought leadership” because it's overused in first person narrative. I think it's a been jargon and it's an official buzzword. But the real value of LinkedIn, and I find myself defending this value, is that it gives you an opportunity to individuate, put yourself out there as an authority figure. Build a brand if all goes well. Because a brand is not guaranteed to anyone. If you're going to build a brand, it takes a lot of hard work and stick to it. So that's where I think, to answer your question, where LinkedIn as a platform separates from the individuals who are using it. It's got to be our own take. There's plenty of YouTube tutorials out there about how to use LinkedIn. I'm not concerned with the technology. Humans are good cognitive maps. They can learn the site, but the question is, how do they express themselves? How do they reveal or proclaim themselves to the world? That's the style. And I borrow from the popular notion of style to talk about that. Andi Simon: Well talk a little bit more because that is a really important element of all of this. I don't care what social media you are expressing yourself on, what website you create, it becomes something else. I've had people download my papers off my website, yellow mark them before I go and meet prospective clients. And they said, Oh yes, we know you, we've watched your videos before you've even appeared so we pre-selected you. I just picked up another client who found me on the internet. Now, the piece that you just said is very important because each of the social media platforms offer people a way to be expressive of what they do, how they help and so forth. But LinkedIn has its own particular gestalt. It's a way that you are presenting yourself in a particular fashion. That style is not to be underestimated. Do you have some dos and don'ts, because there are a lot of don'ts that I wish people would not do. And then I find someone who does something good and I go, Oh, how did they do that? What is it we should do? Some thoughts on the dos and the don'ts on that style question. That is a big question. JD Gershbein: Well, you have to know the rules of style. And once you know the rules, in the words of Pablo Picasso, you can break them like an artist. And not that we should go out there and break rules on LinkedIn, because again, this is a business platform. It's around professional conversation, and there's a certain political correctness you have to observe and laws of etiquette to which we must adhere. But for me, I borrow extensively from the men's wear industry. I believe that style is closely associated with fashion. I've been kind of an insider there, and I've watched how people put themselves out there in the world. And I fancy a concept called enclothed cognition. It is kind of like when you look good, you feel good. And if you're going to go out there and present yourself well and create this interest and arousal around you, you'll feel better.  It's along the lines of, when a man puts on a suit, when a woman puts on her best, go out there and they can feel their best. And as speakers, I know you speak, I speak. When you're in front of an audience, you have to respect your audience and look as good as possible. And that gives you confidence, a surging sense of confidence from within. Same is true for LinkedIn. When you look good, when you present and represent well on the platform and know that you're going to be researched well, it gives you this kind of added impulse. I can't explain it, but it just makes you feel better. It self propels. And that's all I've done since the first time I've discovered LinkedIn. That first incarnation of my profile was designed to set me up when I wasn't there to set myself up. And now that I know that I look good, I can go out there and reveal myself to the world in a manner that makes sense to me. I'm highly improvisational. I don't teach people to be improvisational because there are more regimented people than I who feel that they need direction and structure and a checklist to do things on LinkedIn. But I'm here to say that that's a rule that you can break. There is no playbook. You go out there and you do what feels right to you on this site. And that's how you start to meander into meaningful conversations and you start to gain interest in people. You see what they're doing. You incorporate what they're doing, a little bit of selective emulation, and you discard what's not going to work. And we kind of cobble our own identities on LinkedIn. And that's what people want. I don't like to use the ‘A' word, Andi. You know what the ‘A' word is, right? Authenticity. It's just an overused word. But I'm the genuine article and that's how I've become a leader by example in the field. I show people what's possible on the site, but I don't necessarily tell them how to get there. They have to discover that on their own. I just leave the horses to work. Andi Simon: But you know, being who I am and who you are, you understand the power of symbols. Humans are symbol creators and meaning makers. The packaging you're talking about is extremely important for people to make their persona meaningful. And the packaging isn't inconsequential, but neither, you can't be on stage at LinkedIn, but you are on stage in LinkedIn, and everything you do has to be either brand consistent or you got to be careful that you're not shotgunning too much in too many ways so that nobody knows who you are and why they should turn to you. And I don't think that is as true, as well understood. Because the voice you use, even when you were writing my profile, I watched you use the skill you bring to say who I was better than I said, who I was and then turn it into a persona that I had to live. And I remember talking to you about it, that now gives me a platform to come alive. I was doing it without the framework or the package to be authentic, which is not a bad word. But it is a very interesting opportunity to be seen and heard. And every time they say, You can post this also in this group, I say, Go ahead. Who knows where the group goes. But I enjoy the work I do on LinkedIn for sharing. I'm a sharer and I don't need to own, and I don't need to sell. I need to help. And if you need, I can enable or facilitate or help. And so that's who I am, and what it is. But as you're looking, I'm thinking about what's coming next. Is LinkedIn going to change again as Chat GBT comes along? Are we going to see it impacted by AI? Because I'm using chat with great joy. I love it. What are you seeing perhaps that LinkedIn might or might not be doing? JD Gershbein: Interestingly, I've been selected to contribute to a few what they're calling collaborative articles on LinkedIn. And it's all AI-generated. And I'm starting to formulate some hypotheses around AI. It's a little too early to tell as we sit here and have our conversation but it's a good marker. So we could make some projections and see if they come true or not, because we both are futurists. But you know, AI machine-generated content, it's the antithesis of authenticity. And I believe we are approaching a time where people may question the provenance of a certain piece of content or writing. I have not used Chat GPT. I've not looked at it. In fact, I have a disclaimer on my articles that says, “This piece is 100% JD, no Chat GPT,” because I don't want to create the illusion that I'm getting my inspiration from a machine or a bot. I really work very hard to bring my intellectual property to the fore. And I don't shortcut it. And we're a shortcut happy society. Hey, if you can get out of doing the work, you will opt for that. And granted, I didn't read Moby Dick the first time around and I used the Cliff Notes to do my term paper. But it's a little different now because if you're going to go out there and front a platform architect, and speak in terms of original exemplary work, that better be original and exemplary and not conceived by a bot. And, bots leave off at human emotion. I'm guessing that we're going to find ways for bots to convey emotion, but for the here and now, if there's any semblance that this looks too technical and two out there and too good to be from someone, it may very well be and it may be questioned. So I'm actually rooting for the people who are coming up with ways to check writing, to check for the authenticity of the piece.  Andi Simon: And my suggestion to you and to our audience is, I'm going to explore because the words you're saying are without experiencing it. I'm using Google less and less and asking the questions for chat and coming back with fascinating answers that have a bit of humanity in it. Before you delete it, explore it, because I don't think it's going away. And I also think that Google wasn't perfect when it started. It's gotten better. But Google is no different than chat. It just takes you to stuff and then you need to go work through this stuff, and then you got to figure out this stuff. Chat says, Now here's what I think. And literally I'm viewing it as another thought. Here's what I think. It's just thought, the same way Google is just thought, or you and I or just thinking, but it adds a dimension that's well worth exploring. And being an explorer, I can tell you that you never know where it's going to take you, any more than LinkedIn knows where it's taking you.  JD Gershbein: I have every reason to believe that generative AI could help me in my trade, as people get more and more away from trying to plumb the depths of their psyche to bring something out of them and just go to the source. So I'm willing to look at it. I just haven't done it because the work I do is process oriented. So I take my clients through an immersive process that is far from automated. It's highly introspective.  Andi Simon: I enjoy looking at your clock, which says 1:20 and stays there. We can help our audience. First, tell them why the clock has not moved. And then secondly, tell them what JD does because you and I can discuss AI at another time after you've gone exploring with me. But I do think we're about ready to wrap. So I have a couple things I don't want our audience to forget, but before that, you need to tell them what that clock on the wall is, if you've been watching us. JD Gershbein: Well, for the listeners, I have a clock that's set to 1:20. I follow the Chicago Cubs, and that's the clock from Wrigley Field. It's at 1:20 because that's game time during the day. Indeed. That it's game time is my secret message to Cub lovers. Andi Simon: Oh, well, when JD said that, I said, Well, it's game time JD. What do you do to help people, give them some idea of the scoop of your work? And while I avoid advertorials, I do think that in today's world, you could be of great value to many people. Please. JD Gershbein: Well, thank you Andi. And thank you for the opportunity to come back and be a repeat guest for you. The core services are LinkedIn branding and LinkedIn advisory services. What the heck is that? Typically, business owners, executives, physicians, advisors, and high impact corporate contributors, retain me to write their profiles on LinkedIn to set them up for success and give them the deepest dive possible on the site through a highly immersive, highly iterative process and gain traction, if not mastery, on LinkedIn, although I think we're never going to really master the thing. Andi Simon: Well, how'd you know what I was thinking? Mastery. What a great word. There you go. Humans really do want to master things. They want autonomy. I love mastery, but I'm not sure about LinkedIn. I don't think you can master an identity on LinkedIn that doesn't just push you to new places. And I love the journey part. JD Gershbein: Hence the pioneer frontier mindset. We get to one place and there's always another place to explore right behind it. And that paces with each change that LinkedIn is gonna make. And sure as the day is long, there will be change. Andi Simon: I've had with me today for my listeners JD Gershbein who tells you that since 2006, he's been deeply involved in LinkedIn and would love to help you get deeply involved in LinkedIn. But I warn you, it is an experience, not an automated machine learning one, but a real personal one. JD, it has been lovely. Let me thank my listeners and thank you for my listeners and viewers who come. I can't tell you how exciting it is. I'm in the top 5% of global podcasts and I keep thinking that it's a podcast, but it's not. It's a way for you to see, feel, and think in new ways so you can get off the brink and soar. So thank you for coming. Don't forget both my books, which you can see behind me, both award-winning books and they are available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. But my new book comes out in September. You can pre-order it now. It's called Women Mean Business. And it's 500 insights from thought-leading women who are changing the world. And you will love this book. Every time you turn a page, you're going to change your life. And even JD is going to find it awesome. So if you have a moment, pre-order. Amazon loves pre-orders and it's there waiting for you. You're going to find it a book with lots of good advice from people who you might have wanted to meet. JD, thank you again for coming today.  JD Gershbein: My pleasure. Thank you, Andi. Andi Simon: Bye-bye now. Bye everybody. Have a good day.

Hear how anthropology helps you see your business through a fresh lens It was truly a privilege and a pleasure to interview Dr. John Curran on our podcast. We met by way of LinkedIn, and I knew I had to share his story. Dr. Curran is one of the pioneers of organizational anthropology. Now remember, I branded myself when I launched my business as a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. At the time, I didn't realize there weren't any corporate anthropologists. I also quickly learned that people engaged me because they really needed to change, but they didn't know what I did, or why anthropology could be of value to their organization's strategy or business model or culture. Along the way, they learned, and then they began to see their business through fresh eyes. You will too. There is so much to learn from this brilliant anthropologist and thought leader. Enjoy, and please share. Watch and listen to our conversation here What is organizational anthropology? And how does it apply to organizations? Well, today you will learn. My guest Dr. John Curran combines his expertise in the social sciences and group dynamics with process consulting and executive and team coaching. We both share the same deep belief that anthropology can open doors for people to “see, feel and think” in new ways, in his case—as this relates to products and customer experiences. You will enjoy listening to us compare notes on our experiences, and how hard it is for people to actually see the same thing, even when they are standing next to each other. Anthropology's theory, method and tools are designed to help us step back and realize that there is no reality, only an illusion that we call our reality. It is through the stories we share, like the ones Dr. Curran discusses, that we can capture the minds and lives of others and help them change, hopefully for the better. To connect with Dr. Curran, you can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter, his website, JC & Associates, or send him an email at john@jcassociateslondon.com. To learn more about the power of anthropology in business Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy Podcast: Gillian Tett—Why Can A Little Anthropology Help You And Your Business Grow? Podcast: Rita Denny—Maybe You Need Anthropology To See Yourself In New Ways Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. And as you know, when you come to listen to us, I'm your host and your guide. My job is to get you off the brink. What I want you to do is see things through a fresh lens. I want you to see, feel and think about it in new ways so that you can soar again. Often people come to us, our clients, or the clients in my book, On the Brink, come to us stuck or stalled. They couldn't see what was all around them. Individuals do the same as we coach them. The challenge is how can a little anthropology help you see yourself and your business through a fresh lens. I'm so honored today to have with us for an interview that I just think is so remarkable is Dr. John Curran. Let me tell you a little bit about why I'm so excited and then you will be as well. Listen carefully. Dr. Curran is one of the pioneers of organizational anthropology. Now remember, I named myself when I launched my business as a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. At the time, I didn't realize that there weren't any corporate anthropologists, much less that people bought me because they really needed to change. What I did, they had no idea. So what I want you to listen to us talk about today is, what is anthropology and how does it apply to organizations. Dr. Curran combines his expertise in the social sciences and group dynamics, with process consulting, systemic executive and team coaching. See, we both sort of share the same kind of thing, and we research and work with senior leaders and their teams to develop dynamic collaboration for organizational cultures that connect their values with those of their employees and wider stakeholders. In short, John and I share a common world where we want to bring them the methods and tools of anthropology and that theory into organizations to help you do things better. And humans are complicated critters. They hire me to help them change and then put me in the closet, lock the door, please don't come out, “I hate change.” So it's really interesting. So a little bit more. Dr. Curran holds a PhD in social anthropology, formal training in organizational process consulting, executive coaching, systemic team coaching, a whole lot of stuff. He's an associate consultant at the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations, which I hope you will talk a little bit about. He's the owner of JC and Associates and a visiting scholar at the Royal College of Art in design anthropology. Now that we have so much good stuff to talk about today, it's going to be such fun. His clients have included Coca Cola, Hallmark, Novo Nordisk, now J&J. Oh, a lot of the top companies and everybody else who wants to come and hear him talk. John, thank you for joining me. It's been a pleasure to meet you. John Curran: Oh, it's absolutely wonderful to be on your podcast. And it's one of my go-to podcasts. I learn from it all the time as well. Andi Simon: Wonderful, then I will make sure that as I'm recording and bringing my guests that I'm your audience, it is interesting. John had a great article on how meetings are held. And I'll get to that toward the end. We all are frustrated within ineffectual, dysfunctional meetings. And he said, just look at the roles people are playing and how they're doing it. But let's talk about you. What has your journey been? Share with us? John Curran: Okay, it's actually a privilege to share because you don't really think about your journey much. And I knew you were going to ask me that question. So I did a little bit of thinking. And I guess I came into anthropology from a kind of indirect way. I think I became interested in culture, unknowingly. And my first ever real job was when I was playing, when I was 17, or 18. But my real job was probably when I was 20 years old. I failed all my exams at school, I was an undiagnosed dyslexic. So this idea of failing, it was, in that sense, you learned actually that you have to look in between the lines to survive. You have to hustle in a way, right? So what I did was, I got a job as a keynote or domestic staff at a data center for the homeless in central London in Victoria. And it was run by Catholic Irish nuns. I was actually working with a homeless guy. And it was kind of fun. Then I started really taking on board the dynamics of what's actually going on in France. It was a great kind of experience and journey. And in my early 20s, I started going to night school again and kind of got a diagnosis of dyslexia and got confidence back in me. And it was then that I kind of realized, well, I'm not going to be able to do statistics, I need something that I can use my brain and my creativity, and this thing called anthropology emerged. And I remember reading quickly an introduction, you know, first few pages and shutting it, going, Right, that's me, I've got it going. So I was very lucky. I went from Glasgow to the London School of Economics, which was the kind of founder of traditional British anthropology. And learned about Malinovski and all those great names. And it was while doing my undergrad that I started working to make a little bit of money as a care assistant on psychiatric wards in hospitals and psychiatric hospitals. And it was then I realized that there's my PhD, I'm going to do a PhD, I'm going to do it on the culture of psychiatric hospitals. And that's it. So I spent two years being a member of staff and actually working the shifts as the ultimate participant observation for two years, and understanding power dynamics between the different sections, all the way from the domestic staff, all the way up to the consultant psychiatrists and the policymakers, and how that was played out and fluid and unpredictable on a daily basis. So it was very much looking at the microcosms or the micro aspects of everyday culture, but making bigger theories around how policy and ideology and values and mission statements and actually how they actually do work out. So that was my kind of journey. I got my PhD and, and then it kind of developed from there. While I was writing my PhD, I got approached by Microsoft. This was completely outside my area. If I wanted to understand how people use mobile phones. That kind of led me for a few years into the world of innovation and the world of design and market research and advertising and branding. But I was always more interested in the aspects of organizational culture and group dynamics. And that's where I sit now. Andi Simon: Don't you love it? I'm going to share just a smidgen of my own background. And you'll know why, John, and I feel like we're part of the same tribe, because I discovered anthropology as an undergraduate. And I went, Oh that's me, just like you did. It was like an epiphany. And then I went to Columbia to get my last 18 credits in anthropology. I didn't have to transfer. I went to Penn State, and it was just the depths of Conrad Arensberg and Marvin Magadh. And still, I mean, Ernestine Friedl became my mentor. And it was like, how could you be the best in the world in a field that I just sort of became a religious believer in? I wasn't even sure what I was going to do with it. But it sort of was who I was, as opposed to what I was going to do. When I met my husband 56 years ago, he said, What do you want to be now that you've grown up? I said, Well, I can either be an attorney or an anthropologist. He said, be an anthropologist. He also said, I'll be here for you, which he is, but it was one of those supports. And I had no idea what it was going to be. But it's served us well, hasn't it? Wow. John Curran: Yeah. I really like what you said there about how it kind of becomes part of you. So you don't do anthropology for a specific career, right? You know, that's a no-no. And it made me think about when I was doing my PhD at Goldsmiths University, which is part of London University. I had to do some seminar teaching for young undergrads. And what I would do, I'd get them to spend a week, and they would have to go and travel on London buses, you know, the red double decker bus, but they would have to spend half the week only going on the top deck. And then the second half will be going on the bottom deck. Look at the cultural differences of the two, so you could go into symbolism of gender or masculinity upstairs. And looking at binary oppositions and I remember the feedback that they gave me was, We can't go anywhere now without looking at something logically. That's right. Andi Simon: And it only took that moment that you couldn't bring them to Samoa, but you could put them on a bus, normal, comfortable, and give them a job to look at it through a fresh lens to see what was actually going on. And that's when you say to people: humans are meaning makers, nothing exists out of context. And so the upstairs and the downstairs are two different contexts, same thing going on in a whole different fashion. You have had so many great experiences. Talk a little bit about how you got your PhD. John Curran: Both fed each other. When I was working mainly in innovation, I would be wanting to add agencies to help the planners design and think in a certain way, anthropologically. The planners in advertising were very much anthropologists to a certain extent. But also when you think about innovation around medicine, or, you know, diabetes, the anthropologist can go and read it, understand how people live, are living out their experiences, how they might take, for example, a medical device that they use in their everyday lives, but how in their everyday lives, it has a different symbolic meaning. It isn't just, it doesn't just have the use value of say, administering insulin, it isn't functional, it's also part of the body. And when you bring in these anthropological theories and observations, you were able to work that back into the organization, like a medical device company, or pharmaceutical company, and challenge how they perceive the products that they they use as a means of being able to design for the person, designing for culture, designing for emotions, and not designing just for function. Andi Simon: You know, it's interesting, I was at an EPA conference a number of years ago, and one of the panelists said: “Why can't we get our clients, the CEOs or the C-suite, to believe the research that we have done for them? They immediately deleted me. And I spent 10 years as an academic and then 20 years as an executive, helping banks and health care.” And what went through my mind, and I said it gently, was: They don't trust what you brought back because you haven't ever run the business. You're helping them see something from the outside. You saw it, but they don't trust that you really know what you're saying. And if they had taken them with you, maybe they would understand what your experiences are to people? Do they really understand what you brought back to them? Do they apply it? How do we communicate? Because this is all about transformation. John Curran: Exactly. Well, I think actually, Novo Nordisk, are a unique example, because they're the ones who have got fantastic anthropologists internally. They've done some great work around ethnography, it's very much part of their DNA. So probably a lot of their leaders will be going into the field as well or do go into the field. But if you think that by and large around companies, yes, this idea of when you do take execs into the field, it's life changing. They all of a sudden realize that their products or the services that they're offering customers, there's a whole different world. People appropriate brands, products, to fit into their lives, not the other way around. So then you've got another level, and then you start working well. If you're looking at the values of your company, how do they align with the values of your employees, but also your customers, and then all of a sudden, you've got these kinds of concentric circles moving out and out, and then all of a sudden, you've got the holistic picture, and you can start thinking holistically with execs. There's also another problem, which has been around for many years, but this idea of risk. And when you're coming back with just stories and insights based on theory, it's not an Excel spreadsheet, it hasn't got statistics, especially in a digitalized age with the world coming together. I think that's probably less of a stigma nowadays. But, it definitely was a massive barrier. How do we quantify this? You know, we could do a survey of 10,000 people globally, but you're going to only visit 20 people. I mean, that doesn't weigh up, right? So you have to, there has to be a lot of education, a lot of even training for execs. And the final area, which now does very much still exist, where this is what really put me back into the world of food dynamics and organizational culture, was silence. So if you're thinking that you're doing the best, most amazing piece of anthropological research around consumers, and you run the best workshop, and you've got whatever it is, everything's on, it's perfect. You're not taking into account that the people who you are serving are coming potentially from cultures, organizational cultures, that are siloed. So if you have engineers in the room, and you have marketeers in the room, and you have sales in the room, they are three different tribes. Different ways of thinking about what they need. They also need to protect their expertise, their identity, their subcultures, right? So if you enter this anthropology and we're going to revolutionize it, we're going to shock you, they will look at you and they will say, Oh, we can project back on to you, we're not playing ball. So then you have to work in a different way with them. And you have to respect the silo, to a certain extent. Andi Simon: The silo is there, and it's not going away. And if you've hired people because they're good engineers and good marketers and finance. You know, I was a bank executive. As you step back and you look, having conversations, even lunches with people, it was like, one was speaking Roman Latin, and the other was talking Greek and the words didn't have any meaning for the other, and you needed a dialectician who could move from one to the other and make it real. And as you try and make them now include the customer, who is a customer? And is it the buyer, or is it the user? And it's a complicated world. And having said that, though, corporate anthropologists, anthropologists in general, have had a far better time of it recently, over the last I'll say, five years or so, then earlier because we were academic misfits. I tried to hire someone from a university for a client and they said, no, we're just training them to be academicians. I said, wouldn't it be nice if they could help a business do better with their academic expertise? It was most interesting. But I do think that business, the fact that Intel had anthropologist Genevieve Bell there, Microsoft has them, the government uses them. I think there's a growing awareness that we don't know what we don't know. And design thinking has made ethnographic work extremely important, but it goes out and starts by observing. And you're doing design work as well. What kind of work are you doing with the design anthropology? John Curran: But the sort of design anthropology came about, again, out of the innovation, where I would be looking, and I'd be always very interested in. We could look at products and how people actually use products, as I've mentioned previously, but what I was, and I'm still very interested in, is the workplace. Some people say, anthropologists are designers by default. To some extent maybe. I think there was a lovely crossover there. Traditional anthropologists aren't really coming to a conclusion. They're leaving things hanging, where the designer needs to finish something. But what I will be doing is talking to the world of design and architecture as well, around what does a workplace actually mean and now the unknown, that we've got differences with hybrid work and post COVID. But you know, what's the symbolic goodness of space? And a wonderful example, actually, was when I wasn't a part of this. But when Lego started up their new headquarters in London, they used to have signs, which were little cardboard cutouts of VW camper vans, saying, Don't park here. Meaning, you must be on the move, don't make a place permanent in the workplace. Don't eat your food there. And people started rebelling against that. That kind of thinking. Well, actually, if I want to eat my granola at my desk, I should be allowed. I should be allowed to do it. And that's a really brilliant sign that you can think that you can design, affection that's going to enhance collaboration and well being and all these things. But if you've got a management system that is dysfunctional, it doesn't matter what type of sofa, how many table tennis tables you've got, or how much free beer is on Fridays, it doesn't work. So you have to actually think about what you're designing for the unconscious as much as the actual function as well. So that's what I try and put in the times. That's what I do. I think that's a key thing of anthropology: to take what is given as a norm…I use kind of a brutal thing…you get a sledgehammer and you dismantle that normality. And that's what the anthropologist does. You don't take anything for granted. And you're looking in between the lines. It's a classic thing if you read Shakespeare, or Hemingway, or you read, you know, Alice Walker, you're not reading the words, you're not reading the sentences, you are feeling an emotion and you're interpreting what's going on. So that's why the two of us could read the same novel and have a different interpretation. And that's anthropology as a kind of ethnographic text, ethnographic writing. It's interpretive. It's extremely powerful. Andi Simon: It is and it's also the secret of our success, isn't it. And so this is so interesting. So I made a note as I was thinking about this because Lego had an idea that really, maybe never they asked their folks about it, I'll make it up. And it didn't work the way they had anticipated. It always is interesting to me how a group of people, call it the senior folks, have an idea. And they forget that the folks who they are giving it to have no idea what they're telling them, what the story is, what the expectations are. They're not engaged in the design, and somehow they think it is going to percolate down. It doesn't work that way. And humans have stories in their minds. And we've learned from the neurosciences and cognitive sciences that you live your story. And you're usually the hero in it. So I noticed that you also have a background in the brain stuff. How do you weave together the neurosciences with the anthropology, because I tell people, you live your life with the heart, and the eyes, and then your brain gets in it. And you have a story here. It's trying to figure out what this is all seeing. What are your thoughts? John Curran: Well, that's a good point. And I think probably, I'm probably more with the brain around the kind of psychoanalysis, so that the neuroscience, of course, comes into that also, comes into culture. But I've always had an interest in the unconscious. You know, this is leaning on the likes of Freud, Klein, Jung, but then much more into groups, as well. So Winnicott and Dion as well, who I'm very, very influenced by and what I find really powerful. And this is especially around group dynamics as well, but not just with dynamics in organizations, but in life, is that coming together of the anthropology, with the psychoanalysis or what's been called systems psychodynamics, which is how the individual becomes part of a group, and how these kind of games and interactions that are largely based on the unconscious. Okay, so this is a really powerful thing. And mentally, Klein was very influenced, or influenced a lot by that way of thinking. So we've heard these terms: projection, transference, countertransference. And if you bring that into also the world of anthropology and vice versa, you can be looking at team dynamics in an organization. And I'm looking at the unconscious structuring of rituals of events, rituals of change, which was of power and authority. Those are the three ones I claim or the big metal ones, the other ones going on. Now, within those rituals can be things around gender, around misogyny, all these everyday issues are being played out as well. What we wear, the clothes where people sit around the table, all these types of things are unconscious, often unconscious, but they are forming cultural stories. The anthropologist Michael Jackson always talked about stories being the blood vessels of culture. We can't have culture unless we have stories. Those stories are communicated often unconsciously. And that's why I mean, I've trained, I've done the training, not the seven years training, but in group psychoanalysis. So that's also rarely the group itself becoming part of the culture. Andi Simon: Don't lose that thought. Let's emphasize it a little bit. Because this functional group is at war with itself because each of the people in the group haven't come to terms with a shared story. Each is carrying their own agendas. We hear those words, but there's something deeper than tactical practical stuff going on here. They really see themselves in a different fashion and that is very powerful. Now, how do we build there for better groups? Thoughts? John Curran: Yeah, well, I think that's a really good question. I like, in a way, starting with this idea that a group or let's say, a team, and we're talking about organizations, can always have an element of this functionality to it. Because that's kind of what I'm entering into, and that's what I expect. And that's kind of okay to a certain extent, but a group needs to focus on what we call the primary task. That's actually what we are trying to deliver. And then, if you've got silos within the group or between teams, that becomes harder, and then there might be defense mechanisms being played out or anxiety then creeps up beyond the psychoanalyst who kind of invented this spoke about the basic assumptions in groups. And that's often when things run on dependency, in other words, we'll do whatever the leader says, or we all admire that. Or, we're not gonna really have collaboration, or you have the things of fight or flight. We've heard this, but you know, I don't want that change to happen, it's going to threaten me and affect my professional identity. So, along the journey, you can have all these kinds of stakes in the ground of this functionality. And the way that I work with them and I'm passionate about this is, I'm kind of trying to sell it. It sounds like I'm selling myself here as the external consultant. But it's trying to empower teams to have this element of being reflective of themselves. And when I talk about empathy, I don't talk about empathy as a nice kind of word, how it's being played out. I don't even talk about empathy, walking in the shoes of other people. I think the first real thing about empathy is being empathetic to yourself, which means having the ability to challenge yourself and be honest about yourself. So if we were in a meeting, and I felt that you were being defensive or trying to derail my idea, I might not tell you that, but I walk away feeling something in my stomach. And the next meeting, I'm sure I'll bring that back into the meeting. So how are we about coaching? It's about the term psychological safety. How do you create psychological safety where challenges can happen? And there's one of my colleagues at the Tavistock Institute. Camilla, she talks about creating an environment that is psychologically safe enough, so not psychological safety, but psychological safe enough. What's beautiful about that concept is it's allowing for this functionality. It's allowing the people in a team to have different levels of what safety is. If you're a woman, if you're from a different race, if you're white, male, heterosexual, these different personas, or cultural toolkits you're bringing into that space. So psychologically safe enough. Think about creating a culture of reflection. Andi Simon: And the challenge is really important. Not easy. Do you have a case study where this has worked? Or you're working on one that you can share? John Curran: Yeah, I think that's great. I'm doing a lot of work with executive teams and they are highly pressured. They are highly pressured, they're all coming out of post COVID up there, and not just the exec teams, but the middle management and below are all feeling exhausted. Yet they need to think about the primary tasks. They all need to be facing the same way. A lot of the exec teams and senior management are having to create what this idea of hybrid working means. No one knows what it means, no one knows what the future will be right now, either. So what I will be experiencing is that there are tensions, but those tensions will not be exposed through team coaching or facilitation. There's a process that I use: we do qualitative, kind of semi structured ethnographic interviews with all the key people individually, and I'll bring that into the space. And then I reflect back what people have told me in confidential, but what people have told me, and then everyone feels uncomfortable, because they're experiencing uncomfortableness, or what they're experiencing is what they realize deep down is the truth. And then I've kind of got them, I've got them contained, and I could say, if this is you what you told me, now how are we going to work with it? And I can be the object of projection, so they can go, You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. And this is great, carry on, you know, it's no problem here. But I'm also in that space, I'm being the anthropologist. I'm seeing the workshop setting as an ethnographic space. So I'm also decoding what rituals are happening, the fences and all that, even the uses of cultural artifacts, the flip chart, the who's gonna get up and do these…it's all data. Andi Simon: But it's also very challenging, isn't it? John Curran: It's not easy to do and you are dealing with human beings. And this is where it's very different from being an anthropologist in the world of say, innovation, where you go in and you're experiencing sensitive stuff, but you go out. I'm containing a group. And it can fly off the handle at any moment. And you could say something wrong that could spark. So it's challenging. And it's also draining. And you need the supervision structure below you. And that's how I use a lot of supervision, as though it's the therapeutic space. Andi Simon: I can keep going because I'm fascinated. Before we do wrap up, though, share a little bit about that newsletter with the article about meetings. I think it's practical, but very insightful about that. I'll give you the context. When I got into health care, 1520 people would come together routinely for a meeting. I was an ex-banker and an anthropologist, and I was sitting there trying to figure out, what we are doing here? There was no agenda, there was no takeaway. I didn't have any idea of my purpose, and nobody bothered to tell me either. But we met and when I dug into it, they said, Oh, that's what we do. Okay, we come together, it doesn't really tell me about meetings. John Curran: But I gave a talk and it's online. Actually, I'll send you the link as well, at the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations, and the Tavistock invented, what we know is organizational development. In 1947, I think so. And it creates this idea at the time that was being born out of the Second World War, about having to understand how teams work in the military. But coming out of the war, it was looking at issues around the coming together of the social sciences with psychoanalysis to understand how organizations work. So anthropology was there pretty much from day one. This is something that we need to really write about in the history of anthropology. But it's looking at the meetings. I gave the talk, and I hear so much about having too many meetings. And this was the name of the title in lots of the business journals, and the newspapers, the financials, lots of things about meetings as destroying everything, especially online and zoom. And I came, I flipped it as all anthropologists should do, is flip something and say, maybe this term “we have too many meetings here” is a defense mechanism. And what I started to do is look at the ethnography of meetings, and meetings that I sat in to realize, actually, they are communicating lots of other things beyond the primary tasks. So meetings should be there to make a decision or sharing information or resolving conflict. These are meetings traditionally before, but actually, I saw that actually, people would use meetings as a means of checking each other out. What are you wearing? But meetings are also there as a means of trying to drive change, but there is conflict that isn't being dealt with that exists within the meeting. So therefore, it's too fearful, we won't come to a decision. Okay, so we'll have another meeting. And we'll have another meeting. So meeting becomes an avoidance of conflict. So I was trying to show actually that meetings have so many different dynamics to them. And what I introduced was a model that I've created or tool called the Culture Empathy Map. And it's a step process that people, either consultants or anthropologists, can use, or it's something I train leaders to use. And that's how you decode the rituals by being the anthropologist in the meeting. What's actually going on? And how do I know to prepare for that? But also, how do I know to reflect afterwards, based on that? So it's called the Culture Empathy Map. And it's a tool not just for meetings, but also for workshops and group dynamics within organizations. Andi Simon: You're almost trying to make them see the world of this as an anthropologist might. And you need to step out and look in as if you weren't part of the meeting if you're going to really understand what's going on there. If not, you're going to be a participant in that game, as opposed to an observer of that game. As I said, good leaders sit and listen and watch for a while before they participate. Because you really don't know what's coming at you until you watch. But if you're ready to respond to everything, and get involved in it, then you really are going to be part of the problem, not necessarily a leader to take you out of it. It's an interesting thing. John Curran: That's so good about the idea of listening as well. Leaders need to listen to learn, not listen to respond. Once you've done the learning and you've done the reflection, then he will respond. That's a really good point. Andi Simon: Well, even as I'm listening to you and myself, the tendency on my part is to try and take what we're talking about and put it in the context of things that I've experienced. I'm trying to make it relevant in some fashion, reflecting, perhaps, but I'm going to urge our listeners to listen carefully to John telling you whether it's in a meeting or in your business or in your family life. Before you jump in and answer, wait, listen, because what you think you heard isn't really what they said nor what they meant. And so consequently, you have a lot of interesting things going on here in terms of the dynamics. So on that note, I do have to wrap us up, because as much as I love talking to you, it's such a pleasure. It's truly an honor, I'm having such fun. Thank you for joining me today. John Curran: Thank you so much. It's wonderful. It's an honor to be on your podcast. Andi Simon: John, if they want to reach you, where will they do that? John Curran: I'm on Twitter, at Dr. J. Curran, LinkedIn, I'm quite active on LinkedIn as well. My website is JC and Associates. And I've got a podcast called The Decoding Culture podcast. And there's also a newsletter called Decoding Culture. So those are the places you can find me, I'm out there somewhere. Andi Simon: I'll make sure that's all on the blogs, and people can find you even on the video at the back of it. Thank you for joining me today. For our listeners. I know you enjoy our conversations. Keep sending us great people to talk to. I found John on LinkedIn or a post of some kind. I went, Ah, let's do it. And he was so kind to come and join us. So now remember, my books are available at Amazon. Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. And it's about 11 women who did just that talk about change. And On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights with a little anthropology to help you see, feel and think in new ways is why On the Brink with Andi Simon emerged as a podcast. And I love doing this. So send me your thoughts at info@Andisimon.com and we'll get back to you right away. My new book comes out on September 26 and is called Women Mean Business. And it's the wisdom of 101 trailblazing women who are sharing with you their insights. They very much want to help elevate other women. And I must tell you as you read their wisdom, you go, “This is like a bible of all my best stuff.” None of them were profit driven. They want to help others. They build networks. Very interesting, culturally, listening to women from different industries talk about the lessons learned and how to share it. So I'll send you a copy as soon as it comes out. Take care now. Thank you all. Thanks for coming. Stay well, stay safe. Remember, turn your observations into innovations.

Hear how changing your perspective can lead to a great idea For today's podcast I had the pleasure of interviewing Nathan Richter, CEO of Nature's Key, his medical marijuana company. Nathan shares his personal journey with using medical marijuana as a sleep aid and a supplement for his workouts, and how it led him to become a leader in this emerging industry. We also discuss the fear of change and the importance of embracing it as a way of exploring new solutions to old problems. Nathan's journey with medical marijuana serves as an example of how innovation and adaptation can lead to success. Much to learn here! Enjoy. Watch and listen to our conversation here Many people hear marijuana and think "stoner" but that's no longer accurate According to Nathan, medical marijuana can be an important alternative to harmful coping mechanisms like alcohol or hard drugs. Listen in as he shares his personal experience using CBD, as well as the potential benefits of medical marijuana for sleep, exercise recovery and overall health. Nathan predicts that hemp and cannabis will become disruptors in modern-day industry by promoting sustainability and regenerative farming practices. He believes that as more people become educated about the benefits and safety of these products, the culture will shift towards acceptance and normalization. Sounds like a Blue Ocean model! To connect with Nathan, visit his LinkedIn page or his website, Nature's Key. Want more stories about embracing change and finding innovations? Try these: Blog: Change Is All Around Us But It's Terrifying. So How Do I Make Change My Friend? Blog: Everything Is Changing. Is This A Great Time For A Blue Ocean Strategy? Podcast: Michael Tate—Are You Terrified Of The Pain Of Change? Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. As you know, I'm Andi Simon, and my job is to help you get off the brink, to help you see, feel, and think about things in new ways, and to find people who are going to help you open your mind to possibilities when you may not be really aware of them, or even paying attention to what you know already. Often, I find that the fear of the unknown, the fear of failure, is so overwhelming that humans just fly the other way. That old part of your brain says, don't touch it, don't do it. Don't please make me do it. I'm happy where I am, but maybe I need something to help me change. So today I have with us a wonderful person, Nathan Richter from Kansas City. I met Nathan at a workshop I was doing on culture change. This was a very interesting group of people who really got into the whole idea of what is culture, the essence of who we are and how do you change? And out of that, Nathan reached out and said, "I have a story to share. I'd like to share it with your audience and let's see if we can help people do something that they may be afraid of." Remember your brain hates change. The pain of it is really painful. And today you're going to be a little bit painful, but not much because now you are going to learn something new that's going to help you really perhaps solve a problem. Nathan, thank you for joining me. Nathan Richter: Good morning, Andi. It's so great to be here and thanks for having me. Andi Simon: Well, it's so much fun to share with you, so that's my pleasure. Let me read you a little bit about Nathan's background to set the stage, and of course then I'll let him tell his own journey. It's a great story. He was born in Oklahoma City, as he says. He's a graduate of Mustang High School, which I always enjoy sharing, and the University of Oklahoma and Oklahoma City University School of Law. He began as an attorney, but before he began his legal career, he was a geneticist and he also served in the Oklahoma Army National Guard and was deployed to Afghanistan to support Operation Enduring Freedom in 2003, where he received the Joint Forces Commendation Medal and other awards. Doesn't surprise you, wait till you hear his story. He's served in a variety of leadership positions and he's currently serving as CEO of Nature's Key. But I do think that today's story is about Nature's Key, and because he has a particular interest in helping you understand the problem or challenge he faced and how something called medical marijuana, which you've heard about, became a solution that might not have been something he would've gone to out of Ordinary Nathan. I truly enjoyed listening to your story. Share it with our listeners. And who is Nathan, what has your journey been like? Nathan Richter: Well, Nathan is Nathan. Nathan's another human being that just likes to serve other human beings and I appreciate you reading a little bit of my background and frankly, setting the frame for your podcast, because it's one of the most beautiful things about life is that change is constant. It's a given and there's nothing we can do about it, so we might as well embrace it. And that scares a lot of people because we don't understand the unknown. And if we don't know what we're facing, then we're afraid of it. But life's full of it, right? Life's full of changes. It's full of twists and turns and pivots. And my story is kind of one of those that I hope might help some of your listeners. I was by and large your rule-following kid growing up. I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma, raised in the church, and you know, by God, we were rule-following law-abiding citizens. And, medical marijuana, which didn't even exist at the time, was one of those taboo things. By and large, on every Saturday morning between every cartoon, we saw the commercial about the frying pan and the egg, and this is your brain on drugs, and it goes in the frying pan. It made an impression and I would have never, ever tried this particular plant or this particular product for any reason. Because of that, I went through school, went through college, was always gravitated towards leadership and leadership positions, serving on boards and serving on committees and things like that, and was fascinated by science. So, I got my bachelor's degree in genetics and worked  initially on the Human Genome Project. The lab that I worked for at the time was sequencing human mouse and plant genome DNA. They were mapping that, this was the late nineties, so you know, now you think about companies like 23andMe and you go, Wow. But they were working on stuff back then. I served in leadership positions in the military. You mentioned I was deployed in 2003. So early in the war Operation Enduring Freedom, my unit was deployed to Afghanistan and life-altering experiences there. Then, I served as a trial lawyer, which also gave me a lot of life-altering experiences and things that I saw and people that I represented. All of it led to, about four or five years ago, a situation where I had moderate PTSD. I was having problems sleeping. I  struggled to sleep following my return home from Afghanistan. But, by and large,  I managed it fairly well until, frankly, the stress of life and everything caught up to me. I began coping with alcohol, things of an unhealthy nature. I was prescribed some sleeping aids to try and, you know, help me overcome my sleep habits. Ambien was one of them. I will never take that drug again. I took it and had the worst hallucinations I've ever had. I didn't sleep. It was awful. So a friend of mine, my brother actually, said, "Look, medicines aren't for you. We all know that you're not an over-the-counter or really even a prescription medicine guy. You never have been. I know this is also not for you. You're not an illegal guy, but we want you to try medical cannabis to sleep." So I did. I I took his advice. I took a low dose edible and learned how to manage my sleep without the escapism that most people associate with cannabis and CBD, and it was a life-altering change for me. Literally, I believed in the change so much because of the experiences I had, the positive experiences. I went from sleeping two hours a night, Andi, to sleeping eight, nine hours of the night. And it wasn't just the amount of time, it was the quality of sleep. And I'm one of those data geeks. I wear this little fitness device. I track all my sleep, I track my workouts, I track my health, my fitness, my heart rate, all of that stuff. And so, not only did I feel the change in my sleep, quality of sleep, quantity of sleep, I saw it in the data. I was getting better sleep and I felt more rested. I was more productive, so much that I invested early on in a business. I believed in it that much. And then ultimately, a couple years ago, took over and started running my company. We have a CBD company and we have a medical cannabis company. What we do now is educate and try to help people understand that the world of cannabis is not one of escapism. It's not partying. It can be. There's certainly that side to it, but there's also another side to it. And that is that really high functioning people that have stresses and normal sort of aggravations in their life who don't necessarily ascribe to things like pharmaceuticals and narcotics, can find an alternative to cope with those without the harmful coping mechanisms. We've come to know, like alcohol, other hard drugs, things like that. And so that's my pivot. That's the change that happened in my life. I will tell you and your listeners that it was not an easy decision to pivot and go and lead a company versus practicing law. I had my own practice for about 15 years. So shutting that down and transitioning to the business world was scary, terrifying in many regards, especially to move into a startup and an emerging industry that's very volatile and very unknown. But it's been one of the most exhilarating changes. I've been fortunate enough to help over 60 kids and hundreds and hundreds of adults understand how they can use purpose-driven products, which I call it, purpose-driven products, to live a better quality of life. Whether it be through a workout, whether it be through sleep, they're finding a better way than using or leaning on man-made pharmaceuticals that have really terrible side effects that they end up having to take another pill for the side effect. So it's been very exhilarating. It's very fulfilling in this change and had I been scared, had I been worried about the unknown, I probably wouldn't have the joy I have in my life right now. Andi Simon: Did you know, Nathan, we always preach if you want to change, have a crisis or create one. You had reached crisis moment, had you not? Nathan Richter: I had. Andi Simon: What is most disturbing as I look at our society today is the percentage of people who are full of anxiety, depression, and not having fun in life. You know, we know that life is a gift, and if you can't sleep well at night, your mind doesn't go through its regimen to reorganize itself, to get your stories. The mind is extremely important. And if you can't sleep, you wake up and you can't really function. And after a while, you're dysfunctional. Your body is dysfunctional. And sometimes we don't even know what the catalyst is for that mind that's running away. But it's not an uncommon phenomenon without people knowing what to do about it. As we were talking before, and I'm listening to you, I think our listeners need to understand where and when to use medical marijuana. You know, what is it? Is it smoking something? Is it eating something? I always hear a friend of mine who went up to a town in New England, a college town, pulled up to a little place to get lunch only to find out that all the food was imbued with marijuana. And she really didn't know what she was looking at or buying. The age differences certainly cut in there, but it's becoming not quite ubiquitous, but it is becoming more available in different ways. And, for listeners who may have a bit of a crisis or want to know how it could apply to their lives, how do you begin to educate them? Your point about, I've educated dozens of kids and dozens of adults. We're in the top 3% of podcasts globally. Educate my listeners. What do we, what should we do? Nathan Richter: Well, so what I'd like to tell people about the medical cannabis world is that it's not your grandpa's weed. It isn't the stuff that you bought or that your grandpa got from his buddy in the sixties. In the world that we play in, medical cannabis is incredibly potent. It's highly concentrated, it's highly, I hate to say refined, but it's grown in such a way that the strains and the percentages and the content is very, very high potency. So what I would tell people is, I think the stats show that mental illness has more than tripled since the pandemic. A lot of people are looking for something to escape their problems. I don't like to tell people to use medical cannabis to escape. You don't need to drink to get drunk. You don't need to consume to get "high." So what I like to tell people is, you know, microdose your relationship with cannabis. Start low, start slow and layer it with a lot of CBD. So if you're a non-user, you've never been introduced to it, you're not familiar with it, you really don't know where you're looking for CBD is where I would start. I would start with a very, very low dose amount of THC. We call it full spectrum CBD, that is, a CBD that comes from the hemp plant that contains the lesser amount of THC that makes sure it's compliant with the 2018 farm bill. The United States government passed that and carved out the definition for it. So you're looking for a full spectrum CBD product that would be where most people should start. If you're an ordinary, or a regular, I should say, cannabis user, and you're familiar with the industry and you know kind of what's going on, I would say people need to look for, those folks already know kind of what works for them. But if they don't, CBD, which is a cannabinoid, minor cannabinoid, and low dose amounts of THC. The entourage effect works really well to help people sleep. When I say low dose, what I mean is less than two milligrams of what's called Delta Nine THC. That's the chemical that most people associate with cannabis. When you hear the word cannabis, most people think Cheech and Chong. That's Delta Nine. That's where the brain goes. If that's two milligrams or less of that, we call that a microdose. So you want to make sure that whatever you're consuming has a lower dose of that. If people are looking for sleep, which it's a billion dollar industry, most everybody I talk to says. I'm tired and I'm busy. Those are the two biggest things I hear. How are you? Well, I'm tired and I'm busy. Okay, well, why are you tired? Well, I didn't sleep well last night. Why didn't you sleep well? Can't turn the mind off? I hear this all the time, a common problem. And so what I try to explain to people is with a base amount of CBD, let's say 25 milligrams of CBD at night in an edible format, so a gummy, and then lower than two milligrams of THC. So two milligrams or lower of THC is going to create an effect in your body that's going to allow the THC to turn your mind off. And then the CBD causes your body to relax and go to sleep, and you stay asleep longer and you get a better quality of sleep. But it's the synergy between the THC molecules turning the brain off, and then the CBD allowing your body to relax that causes you to get really great sleep. If you have too much THC, so if you go to the 5 milligram or the 10 milligram, that's going to create some anxiety. So I try to tell people, stay low and slow. Then once you learn your dose, anywhere between one to two milligrams of Delta Nine, 25 to 30 milligrams of CBD, and you start to feel that sleep, you can dial it in and you'll know when you're there because you'll have the best sleep of your life. That's how we tell people, start low, start slow. But 50% or more of Americans have tried cannabis at some point in their life according to some studies. So everybody's at a different place in their journey with it. So the can of curious, as I call 'em, the people that have never tried it low and slow, if you're already in your journey, make it more purpose driven, try to drive it towards sleep. Journal and  track your results and you'll find your therapeutic dose. Andi Simon: What's interesting listening to you is essentially launching a rebrand of marijuana. I have a farm in northern Westchester in New York, and I have a barn and I met some folks who knew a gentleman who had lived there and they said, Oh yes, they grew pot in their attic and we had pot parties in your barn. Are you going to do that again? I said, So funny. I've been there 50 years, so you can imagine the time. And they did leave us their pot plants in the attic. I didn't quite know what to do with them and I didn't know about the pot parties in my barn until years later. But I had friends who would come with us on a vacation and they would be smoking. We didn't, neither my husband or I ever did, but clearly some folks liked it. I still have a friend who will start a dinner party and go outside to smoke for a little while, relaxing her so she can come and converse with us. People have used it for all kinds of different things. This is identifying something that people can use it for to go into good health because that sleep can be extremely valuable to them. You were telling me about all of the signs that came out of a good night's sleep on your wrist, your blood pressure, everything became happy. I'm not going to say it was happy because you were smoking. It was happy because your body had slept. Describe that a little bit. Nathan Richter: I'll use my heart rate as an example. Before I started using cannabis as a sleep tool, I was tracking my sleep and my heart rate would fluctuate at night anywhere from 25, 30 beats a minute. It might drop to 65, to 50, maybe 55 at the low end to all the way up to 70, 75, and it would be pretty erratic throughout the night. So what that heart rate was telling me is that my body's not settled, my heart was pumping faster at some point in time during the night and slower during others. Obviously slower when I'm more relaxed, obviously faster when something is keeping me up, whether it's a noise or whether it's my mind or whether it's something going on. So I just saw an erratic heart rate throughout the night. As I started using cannabis as a sleep aid, I found that my heart rate would naturally descend as my body relaxed and then level out. And my heart, my resting heart rate, went from in the mid to low fifties to the mid to low forties and sometimes in the high thirties. I'm a runner, so I'm very physically fit and I've got a very strong heart rate. But to see that change from being sort of erratic to more of the descending heart rate told me that my body was naturally relaxing, falling into different states of sleep, appropriately, and not being pulled out of those states of sleep, but instead staying in those states of sleep to let my body do what it's supposed to do. The most remarkable thing that happens with our bodies is that they can heal themselves. That's right. Like, it's incredible to me that you can get a cut off your skin and it goes away after a couple of weeks since your body can heal itself. We know through the sleep studies that our bodies heal themselves primarily at night when your body really starts its rejuvenation process. And so I saw just with my heart rate alone, that my body was going through the natural stages of sleep and the natural cycles appropriately. And then I was feeling it in the morning, waking up, going, Man, I feel refreshed. I feel focused, I'm clear, I'm energetic. I'm jumping out of bed. I'm ready to tackle the day instead of pouring myself out of bed, you know, struggling to stumble to get a cup of coffee. Just a totally different energy once I realized how I could use it as a sleep tool. You know, there's a fun side to cannabis. You talk about pot parties, right? There's a fun side to it. There's no doubt that there's a lot of people out there who enjoy the fun, the party side of it. But, what we miss is that there's actually a purpose-driven side to it as well. And the plant's been around for tens of thousands of years. The Chinese learned about cannabis as a medicine thousands of years ago. So we've known about it for a long time. We just haven't been able to study it. We haven't been able to discuss it. We haven't been able to really research or do anything with it because it's been illegal for so long. So now we're starting, people are starting to become aware that it's more than just a reefer madness, let's escape and go have a good time. It actually can help you with a lot of things from nausea to antiviral, antifungal, sleep, some massive anti-inflammatory. So people are finding great benefit from it despite the stigma that really surrounds the plan and has for the last hundred years. Andi Simon: What else besides sleep? Sounds like many things that might be addressed with a pharmaceutical of some kind, can perhaps be managed with medical marijuana in a different fashion and enable people to feel better. Nathan Richter: Yeah, so I'm a guy that spent almost 10 years in military service. So I've got bad knees, bad ankles, bad back. I I love to run. I love to work out. My runs were painful. During the run, I would feel the heaviness after the run. It would take me two or three days to recover. Using primarily CBD, but using it pre-workout and post-workout, I cut my recovery times in half. I shaved almost a minute off my run times. It's kind of a nice little vitamin supplement, if you will, for your body that brings about something we call homeostasis inside your body. We're a big giant chemistry experiment, right? And when one chemical's outta whack and the other ones are not in balance, then we tend to find ourselves not behaving and not acting, not thinking like we should, not like ourselves. So, CBD brings about that homeostasis and lets your body do what it does best, heal itself and operate. So I ended up shaving a minute off my run times and cut my recovery times in half. I mean, it was remarkable what I saw just from a workout perspective, much less the sleep perspective. Andi Simon: I don't mean to interrupt you. You're intriguing me. You're intriguing my audiences as well. If people were thinking about this, and sharing with their support networks. I mean, sometimes people are more comfortable if there's someone to talk to about it so they don't feel like they are...the worst thing to be is to feel consciously incompetent. And if you're moving into a new area, and I have a hunch you were exploring, but you did it before, are there networks, are there systems that can help them make wise decisions? Nathan Richter: There are in almost every state that has a market, whether it be a recreational market or a legal medical market. There's all kinds of Facebook groups out there with people that are trying to educate, trying to teach, trying to help people. I like to turn people on to the foremost CBD women's health expert, actually out of New York. Her name is Dr. Jane Janelle Chen, an excellent resource for any information regarding CBD or medical cannabis. She is a tremendous book of knowledge and has been using CBD and formulations and medical cannabis formulations in her practice for quite some time. Dr. Chen is a great resource. The internet of things is full of information. Unfortunately, it's full of a lot of misinformation. My CBD company is actually called Transcend, www.transcendlife is our website. We've got some resources on there. You can reach out to us. We're happy to answer questions at any point in time. On the medical cannabis side, my company, which is called Nature's Key, we actually have a whole education arm where Joe Hagers, my business partner, co-founder, he heads up our education arm. He talks to patients every day, tries to help guide them and suggest things to them that might help with whatever ails them. So depending on what state you're in, I'm sure there are resources there. Most of the time it's on Facebook but there are also great websites and great experts in the field that can help guide people as well and help give them information. Andi Simon: People have said my podcast is a top 10 futurist podcast, and I always ask the question, What do you see coming next? Because humans are futurists. I mean, if we can begin to see, we feel more comfortable doing today. Where do you see both CBD and medical marijuana, the culture around us moving towards? If we were all happy folks, that would be one thing, but there's so much that could be useful. This is not arsenic. This is better than not doing anything. Help us see where you see things going. Nathan Richter: If I had an hourglass and I could look into a crystal ball and I could look into the future 10, 20 years from now, I think what I hope I see is that hemp and cannabis have become great disruptors in the modern day industry. What I mean by that is what we're seeing trendline-wise across the world is, we've got to be more sustainable. We've got to be more regenerative. We can't continue to assault the land like we have and the environment like we have and think that the world is going to continue to be as beautiful and as wonderful as we find it. We got to  take care of it. We do that through farming, agriculture, methodologies and technologies. And what we're finding with hemp and with cannabis is that that particular plant, just from an agricultural standpoint, is incredibly robust. It's a plant that can be grown, three to four crops a year outdoors, one crop a year, three or four crops indoors. It's a plant that provides great benefit and nutrients back into the environment in which it's grown. And on the hemp side, it can be used for everything from paper to plastics to clothing to concrete. You can use that product to manufacture a lot of different textiles and things that are kinder to the environment and potentially more cost beneficial to the businesses. And so I think what we'll see in 10 to 20 years from now is hemp becoming a major commodity. It'll be used as an input material for various manufacturing operations and various types of products that you see today. I think that you'll see it start to show up in more cosmetics. Health and beauty and wellness have really learned that CBD topically is a great skin nourishment and skin vitamin. I think you'll start to see CBD and maybe even low dose medical cannabis sort of infused into some products that you'll see in the health and beauty sector. Then I think on the cannabis side, you'll start to see it over the next 20, 25 years be introduced in the supplement world and recognized as such. But unfortunately, I think you're going to see a split and you're going to see the medical side of cannabis by and large go one way. And unfortunately the vice side of cannabis, that recreational side goes another. There'll be a place for both, but where they end up, I don't know. Andi Simon: Well, I don't either, but at least you can have the early stages of what you see. It's the conversations that people are crafting. Remember, humans are meaning makers. We create meaning out of stuff. And hemp isn't inherently good or bad, until we begin to see ways that we can use it for ourselves and for different purposes. Slowly this country is beginning to see how to change something it thought was bad. You remember prohibition got alcohol to go into the back rooms. We have this pension for taking things that aren't bad or good and giving them weird meaning and then overusing them sometimes. But, I do think there was a period where over-abuse of drugs, and even now there are hard drugs and it's hard to separate out which are the good guys from which of them can be bad guys. But it is a time for us to think about the conditions that we live in and how to help people address them in a different innovative fashion. You know, I'm a Blue Ocean strategist, and Blue Ocean is about creating new markets. You are a Blue Ocean guy. You have a great red sweater on. I do love it. I do like red as you can tell, but I think we both should be in blue today because we're swimming in a blue ocean and we're not quite sure where we're going, but we're creating the market for tomorrow. So as we're about ready to wrap, two or three things you'd like our listeners not to forget other than who Nathan Richter is and where we can find you. Some thoughts that you'd like to share as your last thoughts. Nathan Richter: So, the one thing I would want people to remember about me is that I was put on this earth to serve others. And that's what I do every day. That's what my company does every day. And I hope that when people get out of bed every day, that's what they do. They serve others. That ripple effect makes the world a better place, whether we have it in our little small community or the bigger world at large. So the three things to take away from that is, One: always keep God in your heart. Two: mindset matters. It really does. Three: lead with love. Because if you lead with love and kindness and you have your mind right, you're going to have the biggest impact you can in the world. Andi Simon: You know, Nathan, to teach part of the science of wellbeing and for us to be healthy isn't a hard act of kindness, it makes us feel better. Saying thank you is a gratitude. It makes those hormones in your brain, the oxytocin, go, Oh, this is wonderful. And the act of doing it is as important as receiving it. Then, you know, running like you do or exercise, eating well, that's not that hard. You got to figure out what the good guys are but here's something new that could help in that whole mix of things and really take your wellbeing, particularly sleep, but perhaps something else that's keeping you up and keeping you challenged and helping it diminish so that every day is a gift. You know, you don't want to waste this. The present is the only moment you've got, and before you know it, it's gone. Right? And that's right. Nathan Richter: The most important thing we have. When I ask people, what's the most important thing you have in your life? And most people are like, it's my wife, or my kids, or my husband, or my spouse or this. And I'm like, Nope. It's the next breath you take. I promise. Andi Simon: Arnold Schneider of The Atlantic had a great quote: "I understand death, and I get it. I'm just pissed by it." I can see him saying it. Just pisses me off. This has been such fun. Nathan, where can people reach you? And I promise I'll put that in our blogs and podcast and all the rest, but the best way to reach you or to reach Nature's Key or however to find out more about what you do? Nathan Richter: Best way to reach my companies is go through our website. So Transcend Life will  take you to the CBD company, and Nature's Key takes people to the medical cannabis company. Best way to reach me is through email. It's nathannatureskey@edibles.com. I'm also on socials. I'm on Twitter, that's really the only social site I'm on. Andi Simon: This has been a very interesting conversation. I'm so glad you reached out. I'm so glad we had an opportunity to educate and inform our listeners of something that could be of great value to them. I promise I'll get your podcast out quickly and we'll share it for my listeners. I'll do my normal wrap. My two books are there for you. They're here to help you. You know Nathan's point, why do we do what we do? I do it to help others to share wisdom and hopefully give you something that might help you. You see yourself and others in a fresh light. So On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights is there to help you run your business better. And Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is a startup for my new book, coming up with Edie Fraser and Robyn Spizman. And it's coming out in September, actually September 26th, 2023. It's called Women Mean Business. And it's the amazing wisdom of 101 trailblazing women. But all of us want to elevate others, amplify the message, help people see the world through a fresh lens and not think that everything is lost. You know, I often say, if you want to change, have a crisis. I hope you don't. But I do think that you shouldn't waste a crisis either. And what Nathan has done is taken his own crisis and turned it into an opportunity to help others, both to get a good night's sleep, but also to see the benefits of that. If it's not just sleep, it's not just the dreams, it's really to feel really energized the next day and really living a great life. So for all of my great listeners, send me all your ideas for wonderful people info@andisimon.com. And I'm going to say goodbye. Please stay healthy, stay well. Remember we help you take observations and turn them into innovations just like Nathan did. It's been wonderful, Nathan. Thank you for coming. Bye.

Hear why strategy without accountability doesn't work! I met Aviva Ajmera when she invited me to speak to her groups of CEOs in Kansas City. We hit it right off and had an exceptional time learning about each other and the type of work we love to do to help companies grow. Working with teams, CIOs, CEOs and C-suite level executives, Aviva knows how to bring out the best in them, their collective wisdom and perspective. She loves to build strategic plans but she also knows that unless you create action plans to go with those strategies, they don't go anywhere, no matter how great they are. They have to be a product of the organization. Our conversation is full of ideas about how you can build a great strategic plan for your organization, and actually convert it into a business plan that works. Listen and learn! Watch and listen to our conversation here Three themes we discuss that are very relevant to our listeners Engage the entire organization in the planning process. They have great ideas. Don't shut them out. And the plan will be much easier to implement if your teammates are all involved in building it. Execution must be part of the discussion. As Blue Ocean Strategists, we know how challenging it is to move an organization forward. Don't make it more difficult. Think carefully about the plan and its implementation at the same time. Put a planning process in place so you can see progress, celebrate small wins and redirect if necessary. No battleship is ever turned with just an oar. Connect with Aviva on LinkedIn, her website SoLVE, or via email: viva.ajmera2@gmail.com. Want a strategic plan that will actually stick? Try these suggestions for ideas: Blog: Everything Is Changing. Is This A Great Time For A Blue Ocean Strategy? Blog: Will You Adapt Or Die? How Cultural Anthropology Can Transform Your Business Strategy Podcast: Mari Ryan—Time For A Big Strategy For Your Company's Well-Being Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide. You know, we've done almost 400 On the Brink podcasts, and divide that by 52 weeks, that's a whole lot of years sharing with you ways that you can get off the brink, and soar. My hope, my purpose, my joy is helping you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can have that aha moment when all of a sudden your brain goes, Oh, that's what I can do. So I find people who can help you do just that. And I'm looking at a beautiful woman today who I met in all kinds of ways. Let me introduce her first, and then I'll tell you a little bit about how we got connected and what she's going to talk about today. Aviva Ajemra is a beautiful woman from Kansas City and she helps companies do all kinds of wonderful things to help them grow. She's going to tell you more about her own journey. But I met her because she invited me out to speak to a group of hers at a CSuite Solutions event, really a marvelous organization, and I spoke to three of them about culture change. I had a great time in Kansas City. And so my reciprocity was to share your thoughts with my audience. And she's laughing. But I do think that we're purpose-driven in the sense of wanting to share what we know with others. And it's more about helping them than it is about profits with them. It's great fun! But all of us are looking for ways to be of help. And that gives us a great kindness. Aviva thank you for being here with me today. Aviva Ajmera: Thank you for inviting me, Andi. It was such a joy to meet you in person in January. And I felt like we had an immediate connection. So it's really fun to do this at this point in time. Andi Simon: Well, thank you for sending me all those great pictures. I truly didn't realize that's what I look like. But that looks pretty cool. Tell the listeners about your own journey. Who is Aviva? And how did you arrive at where you are now? So then we can set the stage for the wisdom that you want to share. Aviva Ajmera: Absolutely, happy to. I can honestly say my journey was very unplanned. I wonder, is it serendipity? I believe in serendipity. Is it destiny? I believe in karma and destiny. But I also believe in a plan. I am a very planned person. I think it was really the combination of all three that got me to where I am today. When I think about how I started as a painfully shy first generation Indian girl to immigrant parents growing up in upstate New York. I went to college in Texas. That was a big leap, a big step forward. I ended up living in Minneapolis, joining a consulting firm, moving to Kansas City, which was never on my radar growing up in New York. Back in 1995, I joined Hallmark Cards, and then I left corporate without a job to go to when I was there 15 years. But I just felt like that's what was right for me. I ended up joining an international consulting firm. I was a partner there for seven years. And I was traveling all the time, and my little girl was growing up. And that's how I decided to start SoLVE, my strategic consulting firm here in Kansas City. And then this year, I started my new firm, the one that you came to speak to, called C-Suite Success. So I never would have thought growing up the way I did, super shy, really kind of sheltered, that I would now be the CEO of two companies in the belly button of America. Andi Simon: Well, you know, I'm a big believer in serendipity. And I do think there's a path. I just don't know what the next step on that path is. And we are all talking about what's next because we've reached that phase where we're pretty successful. And we sort of know who we are. And the journey has so many interesting uncertainties to it and is full of challenges. But you're an important part because you've been inside a company helping it grow. You've been a consultant helping companies grow. You now have your own business, helping them grow. And watching you lead these groups that I spoke to, they have a magic relationship with you. They listen, and they're learning at the same time. So share with us some of the wisdom of what you learned as you went through this, and some of the things that you're doing now to help companies see, feel and think in new ways, because you have that magic. Aviva Ajmera: Oh, well, thank you so much. That means a lot coming from you because I know you work with hundreds and hundreds of companies. Well, really candidly growing up, my mom and dad were amazing parents but as immigrants, they didn't grow up in the US. So I didn't have the benefit of a lot of role models as I was growing up or approaching college, thinking about career, grad school, etc. And what I found is that I was really blessed. I had so many mentors, before the word mentor even was like a word that got used in corporate America all the time. And I feel like they always saw something in me that I did not yet see in myself. And I'm so grateful for that. So as I work with teams, CIOs, CEOs, C-suite level people, and then usually their next one or two levels down in my consulting practice, my goal is always to bring out the best in them, to bring out that collective wisdom and that collective perspective. Because I work with them, I'm building strategic plans. And I know that strategic plans don't work when only the leader has created the plan, or heaven forbid, the consultant has created the plan. It has to be a product of the organization. And as I do that, and I spend time with clients, trying to figure out how to bring out the best in them, what I realized is a bit of a shift that's happened in corporate America in the last, I would say, easily 10 years, but maybe even it goes back further. I was lucky in that when I started out at Accenture, they had and still do, a really robust training and development plan. Most companies don't have that anymore. And they don't have it because they can't afford it. And it's definitely been a common line item to cut out over the last four to five years. And so what we've done with C-Suite Success is bring together all of these eager, high potential people wanting to grow, wanting to invest in themselves and create cohorts. So we have a CEO cohort, we have a C-suite cohort, and then we've got that next level, all of which want to continuously learn, continuously improve, and they need a safe place to come and talk, to come and recharge, and to be able to learn together and talk about applications for each of their companies. The folks in our groups cross any industry. You can imagine: profit, nonprofit, family owned, public, everything, because what we find is that issues are the same. And the ways that people want to grow and develop professionally, it doesn't matter what kind of company you're in, it's all pretty common. And so that's what I would call the magic of how our groups work together. Andi Simon: You know, magic is interesting, because the trust factor is high. And when they come in there, they almost have to shed their fear of failure, or not looking professional, or being the CEO or the C-suite leader that is expected among their peers. I mean, I've done Vistage now for years. I think I've done 500 Vistage talks and I'm always fascinated by the CEO. For those of you who don't know what Vistage is, it's an organization that brings in speakers, like myself, to introduce ideas to their members. And, it becomes an interesting way of getting a feel for what's happening. When I went to Aviva's group, a wonderful group, different people and they were all coming in, shedding their concerns about who they were and what they did. And they came in sort of open-minded to see what somebody else could share with them and help them grow. And growing is very hard when you hit a certain point. So as you're working with them, and even problem solving, is there some approach that I heard you say? Are there certain approaches you take, for example, to build a strategy with a client that helps them see it themselves? Aviva Ajmera: Yes, it's multi-step. And it happens over time, because it is at the core, what you said, it's a relationship. So with consulting engagements, the very first thing I do is send a survey out. It's all open-ended questions. And then we talk on the phone, then I interview them. And we usually spend an hour on the phone. So I work very hard to create a unique one-on-one relationship with every single member of the strategic planning team. And oftentimes, some other key stakeholders; sometimes it's board members, sometimes it's other people that aren't on the team, but they are big influencers in the organization. And we talk a lot about trust. And it's actually one of the principles when I kick off an engagement in my consulting firm. We talk about how we're going to work together and we talk about how when we are together, it is a safe place. There's no judgment, and we're going to have trust. Now that doesn't mean you have to agree. It just means you have to be comfortable. enough and feel safe enough that whatever's on your mind, regardless of what your level is in the organization, we want you to contribute because we think your opinions are important, which is why we've asked you to be on a team. With C-Suite Success, it's a little different because we've got folks from different companies. With our CEO group, they all represent individual companies. But we have an interesting secondary dynamic in our C-suite group. And in our key leader group, which is, sometimes we have two folks from the same company in our group. And candidly, I was really curious to see how that would go. Would they feel like they couldn't open up because of somebody else in the company that's listening. And in fact, what I found was the exact opposite. They felt a sense of partnership and a camaraderie because they had somebody that was hearing them express a challenge or an issue that they had, and the other person genuinely wanted to help them. We had one meeting where someone was sharing that she felt very frustrated, because she felt her role could have a wider dimension than the leadership was allowing her to have. And the other person from the company in that group said, it makes me really sad that you feel like that and I want to figure out what I can do to help you not feel like that. And, I mean, I was just watching it happen. And I was like, Oh, I love this so much. Andi Simon: But to your point, people within a company play their roles, but don't have time to be honest with each other. Or, she wasn't even looking for help, she was just articulating her feelings. And being who she was, she was ready to see it through a fresh lens, which was beautiful. But it's interesting to watch people because people are so challenging. I mean, they're trying to do a good job, and they don't know: I can't do more, I can't hang in there, and then I get shut down. When you're working on the strategy stuff, you said something important, that is, you help turn it into an execution. We do a lot of Blue Ocean Strategy work. And the hardest part is to turn a great idea into an innovation. You know, we often said our tagline is From observation to innovation because it's hard to see it. And then once you see it, what are you going to do with it? What kind of tools can our listeners learn from you about turning those ideas, a strategy, into an implementation that actually works? Any thoughts? Aviva Ajmera: So many thoughts. And you are speaking my love language when you talk about strategy and implementation. So you know, anytime I talk to a group, and frankly, when they're interviewing me, and I am also interviewing them to make sure it's a good fit, I ask them about previous strategic plans. What did they like? What did they not like? What worked, what didn't work? A common theme of what didn't work is, We built this plan, then nothing happened. If I have a client that experiences that with me facilitating the work, that means I have failed. That is absolutely not what I want to do. So when I work with a client, I make it very clear, we'll build you a strategic plan, but the more important work is actually the implementation plan. And the key aspect to the implementation plan is accountability. So for every single initiative, you might have 30 initiatives under a particular strategy. You have a timeline around it, you have metrics around it, and you have a person that is in charge of making sure it gets done. And then follow up. I tell them, even when we create the plan, it's based on what we know. We create three year strategic plans, but we're doing it in the current-state timeline where you are going to live the plan. So I teach them, it's a living, breathing document, really like our journey in life is, right? Things are going to change but we are building the best plan we can with what we know today. But I teach them how to think about how you adjust. And I really encourage them to do monthly check-ins, and my most successful clients do that. They check in every single month. That way things don't slip. If people are struggling, they can share it. They can talk about what adjustments do we need to make, and then we continue to move forward toward their big three year plan goals. Andi Simon: It's always been interesting to me how even when I was an executive in banks, I was an executive in three banks, and we would build the strategy. And yet the idea that this was business every day was sort of an anathema to the folks who somehow knew they had to create this thing. And it was done. And then we could go back to doing our job. And the two were so disconnected that I watched and I wondered, what is this that we're trying to do, this thing called strategy? And then the other part that was disconnected was the goal of all of this, so we had a strategy to get someplace. The daily business was different from what was in the strategy. And some goals that we were trying to get to, that was sort of elusive at the end. How interesting, how business was run. And now that's unacceptable. You can't do that. Let's start backwards. Where do you go? I had one healthcare client with a 44-page plan, can you believe that? Aviva Ajmera: Oh, that just sounds painful to me. That's never going to happen. And then my 15 years at Hallmark Cards, and I am grateful for my career there. I grew and just bloomed while I was at Hallmark. But I remember every single year, we had a different senior manager in charge of leading strategic planning. Well, guess what that means: every single year, the format of strategic planning is different. And I remember when I was young, like late 20s, coming out of grad school, the concept of a strategic plan. I'm so excited about it, right? Like I learned how to do that when I was in grad school. When I came to the company, when you're 27 years old, and you're an individual contributor, you're not involved in the strategic plan at all. You are given these big corporate goals, and you sit there, I did anyways, and I would say, where am I going to fit in? The strategies are way bigger than my sphere of influence. The goals are numbers I don't control. I don't have visibility so I get maybe a twice a year update, maybe an annual update. And so the way I do plans is just really different. And I tell the organization as we're building it, and then I tell them as we're recapping it: everyone in the organization should be able to see their role in the plan. And if they don't, that means we didn't build the plan properly. So it is a little bit of a pressure test even as we're building the implementation plan. That doesn't mean every single person has something they're accountable for, but that they should at least be on a team that is accountable for a particular initiative. Andi Simon: One thing that we've begun over the years to realize is that you also have to tell people what they're going to stop or not do. Those are often fascinating to me, because they'll say, Of course, we can stop that. And then you go observe, being the anthropologist I am, I don't even ask them, I go watch, and I watch the thing they're going to stop is the thing they do every day. Habits are so powerful that they know how to do it so well, even if it has no value anymore. And I had one client and I said to him, You know your clients don't need this. "That's what we do," he said. I said, "But they told me what you're doing. So how do we change this so it fits where you're going, as opposed to where you have been hard to let go?" Have you found the same? Aviva Ajmera: Absolutely, absolutely. It's exactly what you're saying. It's habit. And it's comfort. That doesn't mean that it's right, it doesn't mean that it was wrong to do it when you started doing it. But just as all things evolve, it might not be the right fit for where the company is now, for where their clients or their customers are today. So how do you break that habit? You make a list. You make a list of what's new in the plan. Whate are you going to start doing? What are you going to stop doing, and you syndicate it. You syndicate it with the board. You syndicate it with the senior leadership, and you syndicate it all the way through the company. Now we know behaviors take time to change so we have to hold each other accountable. And there are fun little things you can do, you know, awards of the month, that focus on the change that you're trying to create, or other types of recognition that keep it alive, in the energy, in the culture of the company, to make sure that you're reinforcing. Not only are we articulating what we want to change, but we are reinforcing it by recognizing the new changes and the behaviors, and then soon they become a part.  Andi Simon: But to emphasize this with our audience, the brain remembers what you celebrate. And so if you really want that person to stop, we're not even going to stop smoking, or just try doing procedures that are already automated that they're doing with paper again. But anything that you really want to demonstrate, you record. Recognize the effort that went into changing, it's celebrated. Because the brains of the people you're working with will remember what you praised. And if you don't, it won't think it's important. And those are not incidentals, it's not sort of an afterthought. Or even a thank you note, a little act of gratitude, can have a huge opportunity cost for you. As somebody will say, Oh, this matters, I didn't know. And the other part is, I love teaming people up. Because if you can team them up, there's another person who's watching. And then if they trust each other, then they can talk to each other. Like those two people in your C-suite program. It's interesting, we do things for others and with others, but on our own, we go back to what we've always done. And we're not happy to be asked to change it. Change is painful. It's really hard. Aviva Ajmera: Yeah, it's so true. I mean, you taught us the idea of a funeral. And I'll tell you, all three groups were like, We love that idea. One of the things I do with the groups is, every month, I ask them to tell us about what you've implemented from the last speaker that you heard. And then I also do it quarterly as a way to try to reinforce reminders to take this great learning that you got from spending a day with me and a speaker, and make sure that you're actually implementing and embedding it in the organization. Another simple technique for a company, a lot of times, I will ask them to send me a year's worth of agendas, send me your agenda. I want to see what you talk about. Is your agenda just an update, or are you literally having a discussion? And if you've got new behavior that you're trying to instill, where are you giving it some time. It could be a stand-up meeting, it could be a formal meeting, it could be a newsletter, it could be anything, but where are you recognizing and calling out these new behaviors that we're wanting to encourage in an organization. Andi Simon: The hardest part is to make them feel competent, to take the ideas back and implement them. You know, it's not like learning golf in an hour or two or three with a club in a book and hitting the ball. Although I've done that, and it's not easy to do. But you have the humility that comes with it, the vulnerability of saying to their colleagues, you know, this is something that I heard and I really think we should try. Let's, you know, we don't have to fail or not, let's not fear failure, let's try. And I share that with our listeners, because you need a language and a conversation for implementing the new, when your folks are going to immediately walk away and resist you, pretending you didn't say the words you just did. And they don't even know that their brains are fighting it. Aviva Ajmera: Absolutely, absolutely. Another technique I've learned over the years is something I'll call converge and diverge. So the converging is listening to what the change needs to be. The diverging is breaking into small groups and brainstorming, coming up with ideas. And then you come together again, and you share those ideas. So it gives everything a little extra juice, a little extra validation. And many times when we do that, in our groups, one group will say, Ooh, I really like that. Can I borrow that? I'm going to have that list too. And it's really fun seeing when energy builds because they're learning from one another. Andi Simon: It's interesting, I have two, three leadership academies: one four years, one three years, one five years, and the interaction is less about me than it's about them and what they can learn from each other. To your point: only about having time to think out loud, and to be able to share ideas that are sitting there and bubbling up but don't have a place to come through. And always there are great ideas coming often down in the trenches, because they're closest to the work being done. But even all the way across the whole thing, it's fun to watch people ideate all of a sudden. They go, Ah, you know, I can do that. And all of a sudden it becomes part of their story, not someone else's. I love it. So my question for you, my podcast has been ranked among the top 10 futurists podcasts, but I didn't know I was a futurist. So I asked my listeners, my viewers, pardon my interviewees to share with our viewers. What do you see coming? Anything in particular, as you're working with both your customers, your clients, your members of your group? Are there key themes that you hear particularly as we're coming out of the pandemic? What's coming? Aviva Ajmera: A few common themes. The first one that came to mind was health. So self-health, mental health, it could be relationship health. I think for me, I know the pandemic, because it was so abrupt and everything kind of stopped. I mean, my clients put work on hold for nine months until we realized this wasn't going away. We needed to adapt and figure out how to do our work in a virtual way. They work with me, not their businesses, but I think it gave us all that time that we have to live our life in a way that naturally feels good to us, whether that's how you start your day, what you eat, exercise, who you talk to, all of that. And then as we now create this new normal and kind of reenter, nothing is 100% like it was prior to March of 2020. It's all an adapted version of it. And I think most of us are still figuring it out. Because those norms are gone. So we're creating new norms. So an openness for employers to understand that their employees are seeking that, and there's no right answer. I really feel like the right answer is just talking to your employees. The other one that I see across all industries, and even with my angel investing, really is the idea of partnership. So you might call it networks. You might call it mentors. You might call it really just business model partnerships. More and more, I see companies recognizing for them to reach their fullest potential, having strategic partnerships is how they really will soar. Because it's really hard. Just like any one person cannot be an expert in every single thing called life, any one company cannot necessarily be the expert at every single thing they need for their company to live its fullest potential. And that's where I see a lot of partnerships coming into play. Andi Simon: I think of the well-being and of all kinds of healthcare, behavioral health, mental health, family health, I mean, the health. You know, the tragedy of the pandemic, truly was a tragedy, but it's opened us up to every day is a gift. How will we live it? And then how do we find the benefits of our days? But the other part is this partnership concept. Uber has shown us you don't need to own everything. And I do think that once you take a look at what Airbnb or Uber or others have done, you realize that the market has lots of ways of solving a problem. And I had one client and I said, you know there are lots of ways of solving your situation. You don't have to have it all. And who could you connect people with? Because they're asking you for things and you say we don't do that. Well, you don't need to do that. But that's a recurring theme. I get it. But you know, in the past, I said yes, but that kind of strategy works, then maybe today's strategy isn't about we don't do it. But how can we help you to different conversations? Aviva Ajmera: Right, exactly. How can we facilitate it? So I think of two words that come to mind. One is insights. So what are those customers or those client insights? What need is needing to be met? And then the other word is ecosystem. And I feel as though that word has really evolved and grown over the last, I'll say, five to seven years in a way. I've never seen it happen before. And I see it in my clients. But I also see it in my startup companies that my angel invests in: the idea of ecosystems, supporting one another is so incredibly powerful. You kind of conquer, you help each other conquer those learning curves faster because I've already figured that out, or I've already looked into that and let me share it with you. So back to that partnership word versus holding everything close to the vest and it's like, No, I paid my dues. I figured it out. You could figure it out on your own. I see that going away. Now I will say, I live in the Midwest, and I know that the coasts and the cultures are a little bit different. But I see it on the coasts as well. I really see it all over the world as I have friends and family that live all over the world. So I think there's a synergy that comes from ecosystems and partnerships where it clearly can be a win-win for the people working together. Andi Simon: Well, in some ways, it is a reflection of us coming to terms with, I don't need to do it all, and we can help each other. And we both can prosper much more easily then being proprietary, even intellectual property. People say, can I access your stuff? I give it to you, you know, enjoy it, use it, let me know how I can help. And it becomes a very different dialogue, and I'm going to protect it and hold it, and you got to pay for it, or you've got to do something with it. It's a time when I think the multiplier is really more interesting than the protector of the isolated. Because, you know, I met one person and the work I was doing, he had 98% of the market share for his particular product. And I said, So what does that do for you if you own the market? It's a market growing as a market shrinking, what else can you do for them? And the reason I love thinking out loud, like you and I are doing, is, what else can we do? Where are their unmet needs? And how can we be a value beyond simply the thing that we do? It's no longer a product to sell as the service or solution. So I love to solve. It really captures what we're trying to do with solving each other's problems together. Well, we can talk, you and I for much longer, but I think it's time that we summarize for our listeners, one, two or three things that you don't want them to forget. I made a bunch of notes myself, what are some of your takeaways? Aviva Ajmera: You know, I think I mentioned to you, my daughter is 21. And she's graduating college this year. I'll be 55 this year. It's interesting that I am almost 55 talking to my 21 year old daughter. What I wish someone had said to me at that age causes you to reflect on your life. Like, where would you have taken bigger chances? When I think about three lasting thoughts, the first one is about network. And network sometimes is a scary word. Use whatever word you want. It could be ecosystem, it could be other people, you know, whatever. But it's about not only building your own, but also realizing your friends' network can be your network, your family's network can be your network. And as you think about your mentors, I would say have lots of them. You're going to have mentors at different stages of your life for different reasons in your life, just like all of your friends, just think big. Think wide. The other thing is, I told you, I love plans. So yes, have a plan. But be willing to change that plan. Because you have no idea how once you start living the plan, how your thoughts and ideologies might change a little bit, how your experiences will influence what you value, and what is most important. And part of that is being a continuous learner. It does not matter how old you are. We just learned how to play pickleball. I'm learning things in pickleball that I can apply to my business life. Well, it's a really wonderful thing. And then the last thing is really what you asked me about as far as big changes that I'm seeing. It's about taking care of yourself, because for those of us, which is most of us that are high achievement oriented, right, very goal oriented, you will acquire those titles and that monetary status, you'll acquire it, just assume that but none of it matters if you don't have your health. If you don't have healthy relationships, people in your life that you can enjoy that success with and know that your definition for success might change when it comes to material acquisitions, but taking care of yourself is always the same. Do I feel good every day? Am I happy every day? Am I healthy enough to go enjoy what it is? I've said in my life, I want to go try that or I want to go visit there, or whatever the adventure is for you. Andi Simon: You know, Aviva, I am going to a pickleball benefit, not too many weekends from now, and I said, How do you play pickleball? I'm trying to make my golf game at least competent. And I have to learn another game? And maybe because that's where all the action is. Even our golf clubs would open up pickleball courts because that's where all the people are. And they were at a membership meeting and I said pickleball and they looked at me, I said, that's where all the growth is. And it's fast and it's easy, and it's fun. And people come because they enjoy it. And so let's enjoy ourselves. So it's an interesting time. Thank you so much for the conversation. It's been wonderful today. Thank you. Aviva Ajmera: Thank you, Andi. I always enjoy talking with you and I am very grateful for the opportunity to be on your podcast. Andi Simon: Well I just love sharing wonderful people like yourself. It's so much fun to talk about what I love to talk about, which is strategy and how to grow people and their companies so they can live happily ever after. It's not a fairy tale. And one thing I want to make sure you understand is, hope is not a strategy. So I have a hunch Aviva would agree with me. Every time they tell me the inbox, or word of mouth, I just want to say, you hope somebody finds you and somebody will do business with you. But that's not a good strategy. So, for all of my listeners, thank you for coming. It's always fun. I love sharing and this is a great opportunity for me to share with you a little of our thoughts, lots of good people who want to help you see, feel and think in new ways. Don't forget my books are available on Amazon. My new book comes out in September of 2023. It's called Women Meaning Business, and in it are 101 women trailblazers with great wisdom to share with you. I can't wait to show it to you. It's almost coming. But right now, I want you to remember that I love your emails, send them to info@Andisimon.com. That comes right to me and Simonassociates.net is on a new website and it's all so much fun. Thanks Aviva. I'm going to say goodbye. Take care. Bye bye now. Bye bye.

Learn how to discover who you ARE, not just what you do There are moments when I meet someone on our podcast who truly takes my own breath away—and I hope it does yours as well. Elizabeth Rosenberg is one such woman. We talk about her journey filled with trauma and burnout that led her to rethink her life. Rather than keep pushing herself within large corporations, she shifted her focus and launched a new career, helping others discover their inner worth and "secret sauce.” She's intuitive, she's compassionate, and I really believe she's what the world needs right now. As you listen, you may rethink your own life. Watch and listen to our conversation here Do you know how great you really are? Being a branding guru, Elizabeth knows that people often hide their best selves from others, and even from themselves. She helps clients look inside and see what greatness is already there, and then free it so they can “soar.” Listen in and ask yourself, “Aren't I a great 'brand' ready to be free of the anchors holding me back?” About Elizabeth Elizabeth Rosenberg is the founder of The Good Advice Company, a marketing and communications consultancy that works with C-suite leaders and corporate executives to create their personal brands, while discovering their purpose along the way. You can connect with Elizabeth on LinkedIn, Twitter and her website The Good Advice Company. You can also email her at Info@thegoodadvicecompany.com.  Ready to rethink who you are and where you're going? For starters, dig into these: Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! Podcast: Diana Wu David—Are You Truly Happy With How You Work, Not Just Where? Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You? Podcast: Roshni Pandey—To Find Your Happiness, Assemble The Kind Of Life You Want Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide. And as you know, my job is to help you get off the brink and soar again. I go looking for people who are going to help you see, feel and think in new ways so that you can step back like an anthropologist, observe what's going on and really begin to think about who am I, where am I going, what's my company all about and how do I fit. There are really deep questions that give you some awareness, reflection, resilience, but unless you can be a little anthropological and look at it through a fresh lens, you get so caught up in it, you're not quite sure what's going on. So today, I have a wonderful woman with me. Her name is Elizabeth Rosenberg. Now, Elizabeth is going to tell you her own life's journey more than I can tell you in her bio. But she is on a real quest to help others begin to see themselves. I'll call it their personal brand as she does, but it's deeper than that. It's not casual. It's not in their dress code, it is in who am I and how am I really living the life I want to live? And if I'm not, how do I find that life? Remember, during the pandemic, you heard a lot about "you only live once." Well, this has been the case forever. And every day is a gift. So how are we going to make it easier for you to live the best life you have, knowing better who you are, what you're looking for, and how to get there. Elizabeth is shaking her head. I'm going to turn it back to her. Elizabeth, thank you for joining me today. Elizabeth Rosenberg: Thank you for having me. That was one of the most, I think, beautiful and perfect intros that I've ever had. So I very much appreciate you having me on the show. Andi Simon: I mean, you don't want me to ask you three questions and then we'll be done. That's not our style. For our listeners and our viewers, Elizabeth came to me by chance. And I wasn't really quite sure why. And as we talked, I know there's good reason for you to listen carefully because she's got a message that you're going to want to know more about. And so I'm going to let her talk about her own journey because it has some catalytic moments in it. And I must tell you, everyone I'm bringing on has a crisis of some kind, some catalytic moment where their brain goes, whoosh, there's something going on here. Please, Elizabeth, who are you? Tell us about yourself. Elizabeth Rosenberg: My name is Elizabeth Rosenberg, and I'm the founder of The Good Advice Company. To many, I am a marketing and communications consultant and a personal branding expert. But I think to my friends and my clients and my family, I'm much more than that. I really love to dive into exactly what you were talking about: the who and the why. What is our legacy? What are we meant to be? Why are we meant to be here? What are we meant to do? My story is fairly simple, and I think is probably very relatable to most. I've had a 25-year career in public relations and marketing. A few years ago, I experienced severe corporate burnout. While I was the Global Head of Communications for a large ad agency, I landed myself in the emergency room with a migraine where I lost all of my motor skills. And I know we talked about that moment where we all have crises, and we all kind of hit our rock bottom. The thing that's fascinating about that is, everyone's rock bottom is different. For some it can be a moment where you land in the emergency room. For others, it can be an emotional moment. For others, it can be a spiritual moment. For others, it can be a mental moment. We all have to kind of take agency of what that moment means to us, and then what we choose to do with it next. From there, I went on a very deep health and wellness journey, in addition to switching my job, which I thought would save everything and help everything. I was sure that I had a brain tumor, and I was dying and all of the things, and after months of testing and finally taking some time to really reflect, I realized that I had just burned out from corporate America. I went to another job and alas, the pandemic hit. So I actually quit that job on March of 2020, literally days before the world closed down, and ventured out on my own with a new company. And from there I have kind of followed the path as it's led me, versus I think doing what most of us do as futurists, we forecast the future forecast, and we try to figure out where the path is leading us. So I've definitely had a lesson in the last few years of being present and kind of seeing what the world is offering me versus trying to make it happen. And from there, I've uncovered a new process that I've been working on that's been really exciting in terms of branding, and uncovering our purpose. Andi Simon: It's so interesting. I have a good friend who was over for dinner, and she's a psychotherapist. And she said, "I've been reading Gouda again and I'm wondering about how we can get into the present." You just said that. And then the importance of being in the moment, and not moving. The past is past. The future is unknown. But what are we doing now to really gain perspective on both? You gave us your history, we're not quite sure where you're going, but we do know that you're beginning to discover new value in what you know, and how you do it. And it's not just the PR and communication stuff, it's in how you're transforming people's lives. So talk about your new company, and the new process that you have, and what you're discovering both about yourself and about the people who that you're helping, because it's very powerful. Elizabeth Rosenberg: Thank you. Through my own health and wellness journey, I really started to uncover different forms of healing. I did everything from Eastern medicine, to Western medicine, to spiritual medicine, New Age, everything in between. And through that, I really tapped into mindfulness and uncovered that I was quite intuitive. And through training, and again, listening with different ears, and really trying to remain present, and focused on the day to day, I uncovered that I'm a medium. It took me about two years to feel comfortable enough to tell that story externally. I think my friends and my family knew I've always had this intuition. Every job I've ever been to, my boss has always said in my review, "Oh, you're so intuitive." So I think they probably knew something I didn't. And I really started to tap into that practice. I think a lot of people think that meditating is the way to get there. For me, it was a lot of breath work. I did a past life regression. I have done Chinese medicine. I've done energy work. So I've really tried to look at all the modalities I could to get me to where I needed to go. And through this process, I really wanted to kind of tie in my side hustle, as you could say, or my hobby, with my job. And it just really naturally presented itself. I was working with one client on her personal brand. Her guides came through in the middle. I was mortified, like, "Oh my god, what is happening and why? Why is this happening?" And then I realized the strength that it had in it. And if I could do an intuitive reading of which I tap into the Akashic records, and then really pair that with behavioral analytics about who you are and then the PR part of what I do, really uncovering that story within the story. We all have impostor syndrome, and we all feel unworthy at times. And a lot of what I do is listening to what makes somebody amazing and what makes someone themselves and bring that to the forefront, tied in together with the data that I've gotten in the first few sessions. And from that, I uncovered this beautiful, authentic version of yourself. And then a lot of it is coaching to help you feel comfortable enough to put that person out in the world. Andi Simon: Interesting. People have asked me about impostor syndrome. And, in fact, we did a panel on it with a bunch of women and they said, "Well, when did you discover the imposter syndrome?" I said, "I think when I grew up, I never was anywhere where I felt I was well-prepared for it. And I always just sort of rolled up my sleeves." My nature is to be an explorer. And I've been defined by the culture index as a philosopher, and I was always quite willing to be under-skilled, under-qualified and curious and it allowed me to improve myself in jobs. I was SVP of one bank and EVP of another bank. Did I know banking? No, I was an anthropologist! and they imposed on me for their help and their expectations, what I could bring, but I had no idea what I was doing, and it was okay. But I look back on it and I'm sort of fascinated by this whole word "imposter" that makes it seem as if everybody should be knowing, when most of the time we're not quite sure what the environment is unless you take a job that's so well defined, and you know exactly how to do it. Most of the time, you're a bit betwixt and between. And then when I got into healthcare, I had no idea what I was really doing. They had no idea what I was going to be doing. But they loved me. And I said, Okay, I'll take it. Let's try and figure out how to help. And when I launched my business, my PR guy said, "You're a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change." And I went bingo, even though I was an imposter. Did I have a business? What was I doing, but I loved his brand. And his one sentence was enough to create mine. And so to your point, as you're talking, I'm saying, Yeah, that's me. That's me. Well, we got to know some more about now that you've come to the aha moment where you know yourself better. You intuit, you can feel. My hunch is that there's a sixth sense that you pick up on and you're smiling at me. I want to get a little bit more of your wisdom for the listener or the viewer so that it is tangible for them, they can see how it might help them. If you could have helped me for years trying to figure out who I really was until John Rasika said, "That's who you are." I said, "Okay, you're right." Talk to us, Elizabeth, a little bit more. Elizabeth Rosenberg: A little bit about the imposter syndrome. I learned a lot about it through a program called #IAmRemarkable, which was actually created through Google. And anybody, any of your listeners can take it, you just sign up. And it is a beautiful way for everyone to acknowledge their impostor syndrome and how to work through it. I do believe that your imposter syndrome, as exactly we're talking about, can actually be your strength. There's something so beautiful about going into a job where you don't know everything. What a boring life that would be if you're in something where you're not learning something new every day. And also, I think we forget that we are bringing something new into a field, into an organization, into a team. If we don't know everything, there's always something that you were bringing in that's new. It's fascinating because every executive I worked with has had impostor syndrome. Men, women, any ethnicity, it's just we all suffer from it. So I think if we can all kind of collectively decide that we are imposters and that might be our strength, there's something actually quite beautiful in it. In terms of how I help my clients, I help them see what they can't themselves. Just like the coach that you worked with who gave you that line of who you are. But more importantly, I think it's very important that we, as a society, especially in corporate America, really start defining ourselves by who we are, not necessarily what we do. We all work. It's just that it is what we do. Whether you define yourself as a mother, or you define yourself as a stay-at-home parent or corporate executive. We all have that brand of what it is that we do for a living. But the beauty is lost, and actually talking about what kind of people we are. When you die, your legacy is not going to be like, Well she did this, he did this. Do we want to be known for being kind? Are we thoughtful? Are we compassionate? Are we funny? Do we bring strength to others? Do we bring others joy? I just think that there's something so lost in that. And that was also an A-ha pandemic moment for me. As people were dying, and obituaries were starting to read like resumes, I was like, Oh, God, if I die tomorrow, and my resume says that I work for this brand and I did this and I did this and nothing says anything about who I actually am as a person, what life am I living? How awful! Andi Simon: As you work with your clients, because I can tell my audience is smiling, as you work with them, you're helping them identify not just are they in the right career or job, but also are they living the life that gives them the most purpose, that sense of meaning. We're meaning makers, as humans we have to have a context, we don't just exist. So in some ways, we're trying to find our meaning in the context of what we're doing. And what you're saying is that it shouldn't be just about what you did, but who you are, and how you brought meaning to others so they too could prosper. Am I right? Elizabeth Rosenberg: Yes, that is exactly right. And attitude. Andi Simon: How do you do this? Elizabeth Rosenberg: I tap into the Akashic records, which for your audience, is an intuitive place to go, is the best way to describe it. That is, like your soul. As a library, it is a journey from the past to the present to the future. As I tap into that place, I can steer a conversation knowing that I'm talking to the universal light, whatever it is that you want to refer to it as, and I truly ask the client, what is your soul's purpose? And I believe that we have many, by the way, but what is your soul's purpose? And then what is your life's purpose? So how are you actualizing that purpose in this lifetime? The funny thing is, we're already living our purposes. We just need to be reminded that we're doing it. In a way, I think that's quite beautiful. I also think in ways that are much more simple than we're thinking. But I don't just work with clients who are in a place of inflection in their lives or are struggling. I work with a lot of clients who are actually quite successful, who are just missing that purpose or missing that part of their life that's missing, and feeling like they just aren't living up to, I think, the greater good. They feel they are just stuck in a hamster wheel. And you're just doing your everyday life, whether it's your personal life, your professional life, and I believe that when you can tap into your purpose, how you life changes drastically. Andi Simon: It's so interesting listening. I was at a conference last week, and I was talking to a woman who had during the conference the epiphany that what she was doing was more important than what she thought she was doing. And it was very interesting listening because all of a sudden, she realized that the role she did, the things she did, were very good. And her business was a very good business. But it wasn't the purpose, a sufficient amount of purpose for her to feel purposeful. You know, it was practical and tactical. And as she was going through this, it was an International Women's Day event in DC. As she was going through it, she had that epiphany where her brain took it to the next stage. Elizabeth Rosenberg: How lovely to witness that. Andi Simon: Well, it was interesting because she was talking about it, and me being who I am, said, "So you've just been elevated to the next level." And she looked at me. I said, "Think about what you just said. And they said that you have a good business and you do good work. It has a bigger meaning, more purpose and power for others than just what you're thinking." Elizabeth Rosenberg: Lovely to facilitate that. I think that's so amazing. Andi Simon: Well, my challenge in life is that that's what I do. I listen more, try to hear what people are saying instead in a context. Like you and me, I learned that when I discovered anthropology, it wasn't tactical and practical. It was who I was as a person, not a job I was going to do. And I listen, I'm trying to figure out stuff. It's a weird world. But as you're talking, I'm excited because it is hard to find others who can do really something. I've stopped bringing coaches onto the platform as much as I can. But, there are so many women coaches, even men, who are trying to do coaching in a way that isn't tapping into the inner soul. That's just sort of on the tactical, practical side. There's nothing wrong with it, but you are really transformational. Elizabeth Rosenberg: Thank you. As you're talking, I'm like, "Oh, do I start calling myself a soul anthropologist?" I'm kind of liking that phrase, that thought. But on a coaching front, there's something very different that I do than coaching. I think there are people that need coaching at a certain time in their life. I think there are people who need personal development and therapy at a certain time in their lives. I think there are people who need what I offer at a certain time in their life. We are all at different places in our own personal development journey. And you have to recognize where you are. There are so many clients that come to me that say, I got your name from someone and I can't wait to work with you. And you know, this is where I am and this is what I want to do. And I say to them, "I am not the right person for you. You need unique coaching right now. Here are three or four amazing coaches. Talk to them."  It's a lot like dating. You really have to, when you're looking for a therapist or looking for a coach or looking for somebody to guide you through different parts of your life, you really need to make sure that you are working with someone who is going to hold you accountable and also get you to that next place. Somebody that you can manipulate and somebody that you can be quite complacent with is not going to get you anywhere. You're just throwing money away. So know what you need when you need it. Andi Simon: But that's very important for us to echo. Now, no one size fits everyone. You need to know who you are, which often requires a little bit of assessment before you start, and what it is you're trying to fix. Because often I find as I coach, I'm a John Mattoon-trained executive coach, and thank you, John Mattoon, but I often find that the issues that come with bringing out my consulting job more than my coaching job, they need ideas on how to fix a business or even on personal problems. But if you go through the coaching methodology, and try to get them to elicit solutions, they don't know what to do that you've had in their toolkit. There's nothing there that comes through. So you have to be willing to provide that consultative idea that might generate some "Oh, that's what I should do." And off they go. But people are complicated and you found a way to help them in a particular fashion. Elizabeth Rosenberg: Oh, it is, it is very specific. Because I also do tap into obviously the marketing and PR aspect. And I loved marketing and PR. It is still the thing that is just my adrenaline hit. And what I really want to do is help. Again, executives, leaders, business owners, and the media optimize their brands. The PR landscape has changed so drastically in the last few years. Everything's behind a paywall. There's actual news that journalists need to be writing about being able to optimize your own brand, talk about thought leadership in a way that is interesting, that has a relatable story to tell, will not only, I believe, impact other people with your story, but it always grows your business. I mean, I've had clients who've had op-eds in Fast Company who've had six figure salary raises, just because they've changed their narrative as to, is this the impact that I want to make on the world. This is the purpose that I'm living. And this is the type of business that I want to be doing. So we only have, as you said, we only have one life to live. You might as well be happy when you're doing it. Andi Simon: But you know, what you just said was very powerful. All of a sudden, the next stage in their journey opened up to them because they had time to sit with you and really dig into who they were and what was of great value. What's the brand anyhow? It answers the question Why you? and it does it in such a fashion so that when you begin to tell that, people learn something from it or gain something from it, or you give and share something with it. The only reason to have a brand is to do something with it. You know, what is the purpose? So it's very exciting. And as you do that, you get further affirmation that what you're doing has real value. Elizabeth Rosenberg: Always, and you always make more money doing it too once you're actually doing something that you really love to do. I just believe it's like the power of the law of attraction. You're actually inviting a very different level of energy. You're inviting in different people as well. I think you're inviting in people who elevate you energetically, who are excited about what it is that you're building. And that also, I believe, brings you more abundance and more joy in your life every day. Andi Simon: Sounds like you've found the joyful way not to burn out. Elizabeth Rosenberg: You know, I have to be reminded sometimes to still not burn out. I genuinely believe that your body moves much faster than your mind, and your body burns out much faster than your mind. So listen to what it is that your body's saying to you and burnout is different for everyone. What might look like a series of migraines for one could be an eye twitching for another, could be lack of sleep for somebody else. Everyone has different ways of manifesting stress in their lives. So it really comes down to if you're listening to your body and not. But it's hard to do that, just like it's hard to be present. We move too quickly as a society and as a race, so we need to be more cognizant of the little messages and the little things that we're getting on a regular basis. Andi Simon: I always tell my clients, you need an hour of self-love. You know, start your day with a workout, with a walk in the woods. You know, have a cup of coffee and sit quietly and meditate. If you want to listen to some mindfulness music, do something to quiet the body and get it going. Or end the day with some notes of gratitude and a little bit of kindness. It creates wonderful oxytocin in your brain. But if you don't do self-care, how can you care for anybody else. Elizabeth Rosenberg: And I believe with a lot of my clients, finding that hour can be difficult. So even if you can't find that hour, find five minutes, a couple times a day. I always tell everybody, if you can't find that time, build in five minutes with breakfast, lunch and dinner of just sitting, breathing, being quiet, staying off of your phone. There's little things that you can do, and everyone's meditation, I do believe, looks different. Even though I'm intuitive, and I can do 90-minute readings and sit there completely focused. I am a terrible meditator. Terrible. Your mind walking is my meditation. Your mind is mine too fast. But I can go on a five-mile walk, listening to music and just really connected to the world around me. And that is what brings me a lot, it grounds me and brings me a lot of just kind of like calmness in my day as well. Andi Simon: You know, it's interesting, I live in a rural area north of Manhattan. We found an old farm here. And it's right next to a nature walk and so my puppy, who's no longer a puppy, and I go for two miles, three mile walks. And I talk to her and there's nobody else out there. And it's sort of like my park. And by the time I come back, I feel ready for the day. And exactly, it's just a little self-care is okay. You can enjoy that. It's okay. This is such fun. If the folks want to reach you, where should they reach you? Elizabeth Rosenberg: The best place to reach me is thegoodadvicecompany.com. And I have a little toggle on there about personal branding. And then a lot of my own thought leadership and thoughts and hot takes on life can be found on LinkedIn as well. Andi Simon: So it's Elizabeth Rosenberg, and for our listeners and our viewers, wasn't it fun today. You know, I have a hunch as you're sitting there, you're saying to yourself, "Let's just sit still, be mindful, quiet down, take a little time for me. It's okay, everything that has to get done will get done. It's okay." And besides, whoever cares for you, and about you, will be happy to do that with you. And so don't kill yourself. It's unnecessary. Anyway, I'm happy to always share great people. Elizabeth, this has been wonderful. And I thank all of you who send me at info@Andisimon.com your ideas, people you want me to pick up and talk to today. I was in the UK and I had a great talk with someone in Kansas City. And now I have Elizabeth. I don't know where she is but she is such fun. And the world is flat. Maybe not. But I am really watching our podcast. It's in the top 5% of global podcasts. I can't thank our listeners enough for coming and joining and sharing. It's great fun. And my books are available at Amazon: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business (Meet Elizabeth. She smashed it.) and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. And On the Brink is about how you can smash your company and turn it into something great using a little anthropology, take it in, think of it as a little bit of your personal branding at the same time. Step out, look out and see what's inside. And I'm always glad to share with you. Please stay well. Remember, turn your observations into innovations and enjoy safe travels. Thanks, Elizabeth. Bye now.

Hear how planning for the future means loving change I worked with Jennifer Kluge several years ago on a Blue Ocean Strategy workshop. Her organization, the National Association for Business Resources, was focused wholly on businesses in Michigan, offering important services from insurance products to support with accounts receivables. As CEO, Jennifer has catapulted NABR into a national initiative that supports businesses with best practices, training and development, insights, leadership, and a range of programs reflecting the needs of industry today—such as rebuilding talent, focusing on wellness and burnout, and helping businesses rebuild their cultures in a new hybrid workplace, among other things. I love her message: Don't be afraid to fail. Something we all need to hear. Watch and listen to our conversation here What is the right strategy for an uncertain future? This is what I worked on with Jennifer and her leadership teams. I remember at the time that my Michigan clients were struggling with talent flight. Students were leaving the state after graduation, and industries were trying to figure out their own futures. Fast forward to the pandemic and now the post-pandemic years, and Detroit, where Jennifer is located, is on the rebound, as is Michigan. Between the automotive industry, Rocket mortgages and loans, and IT incubators, lots of new businesses have successfully made it through the pandemic and are now rebuilding the economy of the state. But Jennifer learned something very important during the pandemic, namely that the challenges of the past had changed, forcing companies to rethink how they were going to survive into the future. In this podcast, you will hear the journey that she has been on as she has built her association into a major resource for companies across the U.S. You can connect with Jennifer on LinkedIn or her company's website, the National Association for Business Resources. Is your business struggling with change? Give these blogs and podcasts a try:  Blog: Okay, Okay, I'm Ready To Change. How Do I Do It? Blog: Hate Change? Anthropology Can Make You and Your People Love It! Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It's Necessary! Podcast: Rita McGrath—Don't Run From Change, Embrace It! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, your host and your guide. And remember, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can change. That's not easy because your brain often hates me. I can't tell you how many clients who hire me immediately hate me, because I'm doing something that the brain says, Oh, please stop, stop trying to make me better. I know I need to be but it's hard to do. So I go looking for people who are going to help you do the same thing: see things through a fresh lens. People ask me, What does an anthropologist know? I was asked the other day at a conference, What do you do? I said, I hang out. And they laughed. And I said, No, my job is to help you see things differently, not to necessarily build a new sandbox, but to at least see the edges of what you're doing so you can see what you might be missing. And my first book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, was about all my clients who got stuck or stalled. So Jennifer Kluge is my guest today. And Jennifer is interesting to me to share her thoughts with you. I worked with Jennifer and her team a number of years ago. We did a Blue Ocean Strategy workshop. And they were quite stuck or stalled. But trying to figure out, Where are we going? What else could we do? Jennifer, thanks for coming today because I want to share what you did. It was great fun to see you then and to continue to see you now. Welcome. Jennifer Kluge: Thank you so much indeed for having me. This is fun to talk about our journey and what's happened and what others can learn from. So thank you for having me. Andi Simon: Help our video watchers and our listeners on our podcast know more about Jennifer. You've had a journey. And it's always important to sort of set the stage for why people should listen to you. Because it hasn't just happened, you didn't jump out there. It was in stages, you have seen it, you built it, you've carved it. It's a big piece of playdough that you've made into something big and special. Just let me add one thing. Jennifer is the CEO of the National Association for Business Resources. Now she's going to tell you how that has pulled together a whole lot of stuff, Corp! Magazine, Best and Brightest. But Jennifer, a little bit more about who Jennifer is. Jennifer Kluge: Oh, gosh, that's a loaded question. Let's start with a business perspective. You know, I started my career in human resources. And the whole goal was, I wanted to help people, but I wanted to use business, I wanted to be in business. But I wanted to help people within business. So I've landed in human resources. I was one of the first graduating classes where it was actually called human resources. So I'm dating myself there. And then later on, I added strategic planning and marketing to my background. As far as my education goes, I was in the corporate world and it wasn't talking to me. I wanted to continue that mission of helping people. So the opportunity came to work for NABR, and I jumped at it, and some 25 years later, here I am. And quite honestly, that whole theme of helping people has been throughout my business career, whether it's my teammates, mentoring them, whether it's our clients. During the pandemic, we sat down as a team. I had all my team leaders, and we said, I said, How are we going to navigate this? And we came out with, We're going to help as many people as possible. And that enlightened us to unglue some things. We were able to launch so many programs that helped thousands of people through the pandemic and I'm super proud of that. Andi Simon: You know, your personal expression, your brand, your answer to the question, it's a very powerful one because there's purpose. There may be profit. And we do need profit so that we can pay our folks and they can all make living. But what mattered most to you is, How do I help people do what they have to do? Not what I have to do. So talk a little bit about your evolution as a business because when we met, if I remember correctly, your organization was providing some insurance products, some support for accounts payable and receivables. They were also doing tactical and practical solutions that smaller midsize businesses could use. It was an association of businesses helping each other and it's come a long way and tell me the journey, a little bit about the business, because part of it reflects you, not just them. Jennifer Kluge: Well, you know, we ignite greatness in companies in their people. And so we kind of pivoted from, Here's what we're doing, to Here's our mission, here's our purpose. And by shifting to that, we were able to think differently and offer different solutions to companies. So yeah, there's the pre-pandemic story and the post-pandemic story. You helped us pre-pandemic unglue the brain so to speak, as far as strategic planning. Everybody on my team knew who André Rieu was. And we used it in every meeting, every board meeting. We built the André Rieu story, and this is what we want to do: we want to change who we are in a way that is tenacious and has ingenuity. So for those that are listening and don't know André very well, you used the story of André Rieu and how he changed the whole orchestral experience from kind of boring to exciting and fun and a value and got everyone involved in classical music. So we used that example for years before the pandemic on how we wanted to change. And I think the secret there is that we know that success comes from a series of failures. And I think too, there's an element of, the more you fail, the more confidence you have. And having an important event, like the pandemic, and then you get through it, and you're crushing it through the pandemic, I think that builds confidence, not only in yourself, but in your team. And so it's the combination of knowing that we have to fail in order to succeed, and releasing yourself from the fear. I think for every CEO, there's kind of a thing, Not while I'm at the helm, and, It's not going down with me at the helm. So I think there's this fear out there for CEOs, a subliminal fear, that you might fail. And once you release yourself from that and have confidence, hey, you're not going to fail. No matter what happens, you're going to get through it. I think that releases you to think more Blue Ocean Strategy. So there's the philosophical, and then there is the actual doing the work. And doing the work is trial, we did a lot of pilots. So during the pandemic for the Best and Brightest companies we work for, we launched seven new cities. So we pivoted. I hate that word. Now, I hate the word pivot. Everyone hates it. We refocused. We shifted and we had a majority of the things that we did were in person. Across the country, we had conferences across the United States. So when that element went away, it liberated us to launch more cities for regional competitions. So we had our biggest growth during the pandemic because we were released from fear, I guess you could say, and Blue Ocean does this. It says, Okay, this is something strategic here. But there's opportunity in it. Andi Simon: What is the Best and Brightest? I've had some clients who are recognized as among the best and the brightest. So I'll put this in context for the listener or the viewer. Blue Ocean Strategy is not about competing in the market, it's about creating a new market, thinking about non-users and unmet needs, not simply more of the same cheaper, and then being free to do what Jennifer was talking about: to begin to experiment with new ways to do very important things. Because we don't know what we don't know. And I always say never waste a crisis. I never want another pandemic, but don't waste a crisis because as you listen to her talk about the Best and Brightest, it went from nice to very nice, and from some people benefiting to lots of people benefiting, all because of a crisis. What is the Best and Brightest? Jennifer Kluge: So the Best and Brightest is a series of programs that we score and rethink excellence. So there's the Best and Brightest of wellness and there's the Best and Brightest companies to work for. We put companies through the gauntlet. How do you treat your employees? We have 10 different scoring categories and we have an extensive survey to the employer. But we also validate that by surveying the employees at the end of going through these companies so they can see how they ranked. They see where their engagement levels are and they get a plethora of tools and services to help guide them with their talent. Now, that was our core. Since then we've launched all kinds of tools and resources. We have thousands of best practices that we now share through the Best and Brightest programs. So thousands of best practices, and then we've opened it up to CEOs and thought leadership best practices, diversity and inclusion, team bonding and hybrid work, digital engagement. So we have this whole plethora of what I call deliverables but it would be of value to the business community that came from the pandemic, quite honestly. But, what I like about the pandemic, not that we all had to go through it, but what I liked about it is that it gave you the excuse to go bigger. Andi Simon: And you didn't run the other way because I've heard of people who went smaller, and they shrunk. And they decided to reduce their staffing and they fled. Instead, you turned fear into an opportunity. And you parked it on the side and said, What do I have to be afraid of? What's the worst that could happen? You know, let's go help people because those deliverables are really a resource, as you call it. A business resource for people who need to know, How do I do this? Where are they going to turn? To a university when they're shut down too? And they're going to go to their association. Well, they weren't sure what they were doing. But you filled an unmet need of a huge proportion across the country. And people came to say, I'm not sure who you are, but I really liked what you have to do. Am I right? Jennifer Kluge: Correct. Correct. And we went, like I said, we got our team leaders together. And we said, What role do we want to play here? When times are tough, that's when people lean on their associations. And so we jumped in. We were answering legal questions. There were all these mandates and what have you. I mean, we were working around the clock. We felt we had to help as many people as possible...you know, people's jobs, livelihood, income, food on the table. So we felt a strong mission to help people and we still do. It's carried on to now. We've always felt that as a service organization that we have a significant job to play. Andi Simon: What's interesting for our listeners to think about is, here we are, we're facing a battle. We're not quite sure if we're trained for it. But we know that people have unmet needs, and I have a hunch those calls came through. You are a day ahead of them. It wasn't as if there was a whole lot of time studying the legal ramifications of the mandates that had to be done. Or what do I do to build a collaborative culture when people are in different places doing it in different ways? How do I keep them from getting phished, and having cybersecurity? And all of a sudden, the questions were beyond and all I bet you could do is say, Hang on, I'll be right back. Let me find out. Am I right? You were the go-to. Jennifer Kluge: Right. And I gotta tell you, Andi, no past emergencies prepared you for this. And what I noticed is, more seasoned people that have been through the Great Recession, have been through other hard times within their own careers in their own companies. Those were the ones that were like, Oh, yeah, I know what this muscle is. Let's roll up our sleeves. I don't think people realized how long the run was gonna be. We definitely knew that we had to use those muscles. Andi Simon: Real important point, because people who they didn't think were leaders rose to leadership, and people who they thought were their leaders didn't know what to do or how to perform. And so you know, don't waste them or waste a crisis, even for your own development. So that's really, really interesting. As you were going through it, was there a case or two that really stood out as something that was quite exemplary, either in a performance by a person or an area that you found was in tremendous demand, and people didn't know where to go and we rose to that. Something that you can illustrate? Jennifer Kluge: Well, I think what's coming to my mind is the themes that are still going on there. There's a lot of themes around talent right now. Wellness and well-being in the workplace, mental health and workplace burnout, hybrid work. There is a lot that we continue to see in that space that has not gone down at all. It's really interesting because some of these business trends are the inability to look to the future and predict things. That's a frustration at the C-suite level. So different themes are coming out. But they were the themes that were there three years ago; they're still here. What's the future look like? We have a lot of space and talent so we see a lot of the woes related to keeping and retaining talent. And there's been a lot of mergers and acquisition activity, a lot of culture merges and a lot of change. So, I mean, this is a great topic. If somebody can manage change and thrive and change, they thrive in business. If you are going to excel in business, you have to love change, you have to drive change, and you have to bring others with you to drive change, and you have to make it fun and exciting for them as well. So you can't be in business and think that things are fine, status quo. Well, it's weird. Andi Simon: Well, but just think about the things you just highlighted, because I think they are classic problems. How do you attract and retain people, but it's on steroids, or to use that expression: the Great Resignation. Your people may have resigned and have second thoughts, but it was a catalytic moment for employers to realize that they don't really own anybody. They're not really committed. And then I have had endless conversations about why did they leave? I said, Why don't you ask them? And what you find is that what they needed wasn't what you were focused on. You were focused on what you needed. And we flipped it all. Stop thinking about what I need, think about what we need and what that person is looking for. Because if you don't understand that, it's no different than a customer. You know, they aren't that different as people and they are looking for something to give them their own purpose and their own reason for staying with you. And they're willing to go jump off with everyone else and see what else is around. They may come back but the damage is done. They too can say it didn't work out. So what? But what's interesting is that you made a big point: the times, they are changing, I think Bob Dylan sang that in the 60s. I love the lyrics to that song because they're today. And I think they are always. When you talk about this, though, the National Association for Business Resources is also migrating in some ways. You're taking your own business, and changing as it comes to respond. And I love your pilots. I always love pilots because we don't really know, so let's try it and maybe we'll get part of it. Where do you see your own future? Because that's a big topic for your CEOs. Can you share with CEOs what you see, because you're a little bit ahead of them. Jennifer Kluge: In what way Andi? As far as where the business world is going? Or where are organizations going? Andi Simon: Well, you can do the first after the second. I want to know where the Association is going because you're responding to what people come to you with. You are anticipating, but you also are growing yourselves where many of you are in your future. Jennifer Kluge: So we're going through that right now. We are now finally able to launch our own strategic plan versus what the market tells us we need to do. So it's refreshing to get back to strategic planning and say, Here's where we want to go, here's where we're willing to drive. So we want to expand some of our work on best practices. We have all these wonderful resource guides. I do interviews like this with CEOs to find out what their secret sauce is, as it relates to talent. You're gonna see a lot more quick and dirty tools and resources. That's where we're going. We're gonna probably be launching some new programs. We have some wonderful endeavors that we do at our headquarters in Michigan that you'll probably see outside of Michigan within the next couple years. We don't let anything go too long without a big change or a big launch. And there's a lot of past launches that didn't work. I remember around 15 years ago, we did this online digital education and training program. A leadership program for small businesses. And I thought it was gonna be so cool. And we launched it, did a lot of marketing, and it didn't take. But gosh, if we had launched that this year, you know...we do have some wonderful training programs. We have leadership development, training programs, and what have you. But it's so funny, if you live long enough, right? You're in this long enough. That old tie from the 70s becomes a hit. Andi Simon: To your point, so I have three leadership academies operating, one for the fourth year, one for its fifth year. And when they went pandemic style, we went remote in our pack, and now we're sort of hybrid. But you know, only 18% of the companies in the US have training programs. And they expect their folks to be learning how to do things. In healthcare, I was always appalled that we would move a nurse up from nurse to nurse manager and tell her to wing it. I mean, it was like, Oh, how do I matter? Well, that's different from being a nurse and that's not. And then the ward manager became the leader. And what's the difference between one and the other? So there are some real profound transformations in organizations today, and how we get things done. And I also think, generational transitions. You know, Boomers are not Gen Xs, not Gen Ys. I've had folks where the Gen Xers are translating the Gen Ys to the Boomers so they could get along. And then you have the Zs and the As coming behind them. And the world is very complicated. And it's an interesting time. At one point, I had clients in Michigan and they all were struggling with the migration of people after college from Michigan. Has that changed, are people staying. Jennifer Kluge: In fact, we're hosting our National Summit in Detroit so people can see how cool and hip Detroit is now. I think the phrase Comeback City is very accurate. In fact, we moved our offices to downtown Detroit to be a part of the change in the resurgence. There's so many wonderful things happening in Michigan now. Again, talk about Blue Ocean, there's an opportunity right there. The cost of living is lower here. Land is cheaper here. A lot of people took advantage of the low interest rates, and they grew their businesses. So yeah, I would highly recommend that if you have not been to Michigan or Detroit or Grand Rapids in a while, you should come check it out. There's some pretty cool cities here. And we're doing some really incredible things. But to answer that other question that you had about what are the trends we're seeing right now, it's very interesting to see this transition right here in this moment. There are some companies that are thriving and can't hire enough talent. There's other industries that they're letting people go. We're at the beginning of this change of economy, where you have this group thriving and this group not thriving. So I think there's going to be another shift soon for employers to really focus on. The other interesting thing is hybrid work, and how that affects culture and creates subcultures. And we are seeing a lot of issues around, Do we have digital employees? Do we force them to come back to the office? Do we not force them to come back? Do we need them to come back because the economy is really hurting our operations and it's time? Those kinds of questions. I think that a lot of people are swimming in that right now. Andi Simon: Well, you know, it's interesting, I had done a podcast with a gentleman who had a book about how to manage a totally remote workforce, Running Remote. There are others that are global, that have been for a long time completely remote. And then I've been called to come in and help with a culture of organizations who have a flywheel of hires and fires and hires, and they leave because they think it is a bad culture. And being an anthropologist who studies culture and helps companies change their culture and knowing that people don't know what their culture is, they're not even quite sure what they want to create out of it, which makes it intentional. And that creates a whole new platform for thinking about what it is you're really trying to do. What is it you missed? I have a wonderful client and they have a brand new office that was completed in March of the beginning of the pandemic, and nobody wants to come in. And their folks, they have 70 employees, they say to us, Why do I have to drive an hour in and an hour back to sit there to do the same work I can do here? And the CEO wants to be with people. I mean, he's a social fellow, and really just wants the socializing part of it. It's interesting what the pressure is, and how efficient you can be or how social and effective you are. And it really reflects who you are as much as anything. And I don't want my listeners to underestimate the power of me and who I'm looking for, as opposed to we and what we need to be effective here. I had a client ask, Why do you think people are leaving? Well, because it's not the culture that it was before. I mean, nobody left before. Well, they did too, but they seem to be moving faster now. And I said, So, let's take a look at what's going on. But these are interesting times, aren't they? Jennifer Kluge: Very, very different. So I think we're at the beginning of a new era of how business is done and how talent works. It's going to be very, very interesting to see what best practices come out of this. And quite honestly, it is different. You know, there's truth to both sides, right? To the companies that want to bring people back in person, it's much easier to communicate and engage in a group, in person. Training is a huge issue, bringing people in with the right skill sets is much harder now. Training people for their job is much harder. Imagine a supervisor that's digital and an employee that's in person. So there are a lot of issues now. And that's what we're hearing about. So what we're doing as an organization is, we're saying, Okay, this is what this company is doing, here's the best practice on that side, here's the best practice on this side, but you have to fit it for your culture. You can't just take a best practice from another company and plop it in. It has to be shaped and molded for your company's personality. Andi Simon: And it's important to figure out what your customer's personality is. Jennifer Kluge: Well, I'm blessed because the Best and Brightest companies to work for and the companies that we work with, they're above average, they think differently. They're more elite thinkers. It's a community of really smart, cutting-edge companies. So I have the pleasure of seeing the best. But it's our job to share what they're doing with others, right? So that's an expensive expectation. Going through the programs, we're gonna share your secret sauce, but it's also a gift. Andi Simon: And there's nothing better than the gift of kindness, of sharing, and then celebrating. And I do think that says getting exactly the gift you have. So I'm absolutely having a blast listening to you. I love Michigan, it's been a good world for me to have clients in and that's how we met. A couple of things you'd like our listeners not to forget? They always remember the ending even better than the beginning. One or two things that they should keep in mind that you've learned in building your business? Or as you work with your Best and Brightest who are building theirs. Jennifer Kluge: A success comes from a series of failures. Don't be scared to fail. And it's about you. It has nothing to do with you. Take the emotion out of it, the emotion out of decision-making, the emotion out of your personal impact and the best road for decision-making. Andi Simon: You know, years ago I taught. I was a visiting professor at Washington University teaching entrepreneurship, and some of the entrepreneurs I brought in to talk for their case studies said, "I opened three businesses. That one worked, that one didn't. I never failed" And that's a little like what you're saying. Let's distance the business from ourselves and make sure that we understand that sometimes things happen for good or for not, that's part of it, but it isn't necessarily all of us that's doing it. I had two things I didn't hear from you. I want you to be free from failure. The fear of failure is what impedes you from doing the best things, the right things, or knowing what you could do. And the other thing is that this is a time for rethinking talent. And I think all of the things you talked about, whether it's well-being, and that's a really big area, or it's burnout, or it's hybrid or it's culture, people are herd animals. We have survived because of our work together. We've evolved because we could really do things better together. So a great book is called The Secret of our Success. And our success has been because we did it together, not alone. You let that happen. What a gift. Thank you, Jennifer, thank you for joining me today. Jennifer Kluge: Thank you, Andi. So it's always a pleasure to chat with you and get your wisdom. Andi Simon: Well, I'm glad it's been so impactful for you, but it's fun for me to share it as well, for my listeners, and my viewers. Thank you for coming. Remember my books, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights are both available. They've done extremely well. They won us awards, and they share the stories of people like Jennifer's customers, their clients. And they are like Jennifer who have smashed the myths tof what women can do. My new book comes out in September. It's called Women Mean Business. It's the wisdom of 101 trailblazing women and it is truly an extraordinary experience to listen to 101 women tell you their experiences, a little like Jennifer has done today. What are the wisdoms that we want you to share so we can elevate you and inspire you and help you get to where you need to go. And I think that it is a time of transformation for business, but also for women in business. So for all of you who come, thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Stay safe, stay healthy. Jennifer, thank you again. It's been such fun. Goodbye now. Bye bye.

Learn how to really and truly end gender bias at work Despite extensive and costly diversity initiatives, little progress has been made in recent years in ending workplace gender inequality. I reviewed Andie Kramer's new book, Beyond Bias: The Path To End Gender Inequality At Work, and was so excited to read about a process for change that might actually work. Remember, we are corporate anthropologists specializing in helping organizations change. And we know how hard it is for people and groups of people to shift their ways of doing things to improve their workplaces. Beyond Bias, as Andie will tell you in our podcast, presents a compelling explanation of the reasons for the failure of change initiatives to bring a more diverse and equitable workplace into reality, and what we can do to change that. Watch and listen to our conversation here Current diversity initiatives focus primarily on “teaching” people to be less biased and more inclusive, which doesn't work. Teaching is fine. But, as Andie tells us, this is the wrong focus. As Beyond Bias makes clear, workplace gender inequality is a systemic problem caused largely by the (unintended) discriminatory operation of personnel systems, policies and practices. And these ingrained biases have been caused by all the structures that have evolved over many years as organizations have developed. As a solution, Andie offers the four-prong PATH program for directly attacking this structural discrimination — and with it, individuals' discriminatory conduct. In brief, PATH is designed to help you: Prioritize Elimination of Exclusionary Behavior Adopt Bias-free Methods of Decision-Making Treat Inequality in the Home as a Workplace Problem Halt Unequal Performance Evaluations and Leadership Development Opportunities This progam is a comprehensive set of actions that organizations can take to ensure that women no longer encounter gendered obstacles to their career advancement and instead, find their workplaces to be engaging, supportive places where they — and everyone — can thrive. And wouldn't that be fantastic, finally. You can read more about Andie Kramer, Founding Member of ASKramer Law, in my book, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. You can also contact her on LinkedIn, Twitter and her two websites: ASKramer Law and Andie and Al: Breaking Through Bias. Want more strategies for fighting bias at work? Start with these:  Blog: Businesses Must Sustain Diversity And Inclusion For Women Podcast: Andrea Kramer and Alton Harris—Tackling Gender Bias In The Workplace Podcast: Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let's Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen Podcast: Rohini Anand—Can Businesses Create Cultures Based On True Diversity, Equity and Inclusion? Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I'm Andi Simon, and as you know, I'm your guide and your host and my job is to get you off the brink. I want to help you see things through a fresh lens so you can change. And you know that your brain hates me. The minute I say we're going to change, you immediately shut down right away and say, Oh, no, you cannot change me. But I want you to begin to see things that you can do to begin to adapt your organization, yourself, and the folks around you so they can in fact live better lives.  And today, it's time for us to talk about this challenge. We are building diverse, equitable, inclusive organizations, where people with different backgrounds of any kind can feel like they belong. Now, for setup, my guest today is Andie Kramer. And she was kind enough to tell her story in my first book about women, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. I'll share with you that I have a new book coming out in September called Women Mean Business. But I'm not going to tell you much more about it. Andie is a very talented lawyer and author who has a new book coming out this May 2023. And the book is called Beyond Bias: The Path To End Gender Inequality At Work. She's written several books about it. And let me give you a bit of her biography, then I'm gonna turn it over to her to tell you about her journey because it's a very interesting one, from being told not to be a lady lawyer to being a very successful one. So who is Andie Kramer? She's regarded as one of the foremost authorities on the regulatory texts, commercial and governance matters that arise for individuals and businesses in trading environments. She's represented multinational corporations, financial services firms, exchanges, trading platforms, hedge funds, all kinds of companies that typically deal with securities, commodities, derivatives, all types of things, ESG matters and non-traditional assets, emerging asset classes of all types. Really, really smart, wonderful lady. She's respected for her multi-disciplinary knowledge concerning legal issues arising in markets, and all types of products at trade. nd then we're going to skip around her bio a bit. She has spent 30 years at McDermott Will and Emery where she established and led the financial products trading and derivatives group. In my book, we talk more about how getting into McDermott Will and Emery was an interesting experience and what she's done there, since it's been an interesting one. One of my favorite stories is how the men all climbed the Empire State Building and saved the damsel in distress and the women all worked well together, and they kept their jobs. So she learned early about being a very successful, talented woman in a man's organization and industry. She's been co-author of many books, and she was also named by The National Law Journal as one of the 50 Most Influential Women Lawyers in America, for a demonstrated power to change the legal landscape, shape public affairs, watch industries and do big things. I love that. The National Law Review recognized her as a go-to thought leader, and JD super readers voted for her as the top author in cryptocurrency and taxation, but we're not going to talk about cryptocurrency today. But that's an interesting topic by itself. She's known for her long-standing work addressing and dismantling workplace gender discrimination. And she served as a member of the diversity and inclusion advisory board for the Illinois Supreme Court Commission on Professionalism and was co-author of What You Need to Know about Negotiating Compensation, a 2013 Guide, published by the American Bar Association with her lovely husband, Al Harris. She's written two award winning books, Breaking Through Bias: Communication Techniques for Women to Succeed at Work, and the book that I have behind me, It's Not You, It's the Workplace, Women's Conflict at Work and the Bias That Built It. With that in mind, that is sort of the setup for today's conversation. And I will tell you, before the podcast begins, I just love Andie Kramer, and you will as well, in part because she's tackled the legal profession and our society with both hands up and ready to go. And now she keeps wanting to help it change. So with that, Andie, before I talk about your new book, let's talk about your own journey. How did you get going in this? Why is bias and bias management such a critical part about who Andie Kramer is, and how are we helping women and organizations change, which is what I love. Andie? Andie Kramer: Thanks. Okay. Well, well, thank you very much Andi. Yeah, if we get confused, all we have to do is say, Andi(ie) and we've got it covered. My journey started when I was 12 years old and I decided that I wanted to be a lawyer. And my parents only knew one man who was a lawyer and asked him if he would do some career advice for me. And when I met with him, he spent the entire lunchtime talking about why I did not want to be a lawyer, because no one liked lady lawyers, no one would ever love me, I would never have a family, I would always be alone, and life would be terrible. Obviously, I paid no attention to him. And I went forward and became a lawyer and have been for many years. But he really touched on something that is important in the context of what we have to do about the workplace for women and what we can do to do better. And that is that he touched on what my husband and I refer to as the Goldilocks Dilemma, which is that women who are nice and kind and sweet are playing to stereotypes and are expected to be nice and kind and sweet. But if we're stronger, tougher, get this done, or I need this by this time period, we're too tough, and no one wants to work with us. And so this man talking to a 12-year-old was actually touching on some of the issues that we still have today in today's workplace, which is that women are expected to be punished if we're not nice and kind and sweet. But if we're to get this done, and I need this, and I need it now, then not just the men, but the women, too, don't want to be working with us. And so that leads me to Andi's original question: why am I doing this? And how did I get in this space? And the answer to that was that once I knew I wanted to be a lawyer, I put my head down, and I was fortunate enough to be able to make that happen. We could talk about how Title Nine actually is what probably allowed me to get into law school because before Title Nine, women were excluded from consideration. And so that's a topic for another day. But the reality is that when I joined this huge big law firm after having started my practice with a group of people that could not have cared if you were purple, polka dotted, if you did a good job, everybody wanted you on their projects, I'm now in an environment where the fact that I was a woman, what am I doing in a corner office, the fact that I have a two-year-old daughter at home, obviously, I don't care about my career. So the stereotypes are clashing. And I started to see what stereotypes and biases do to women in the workplace, especially when the workplace is large and people don't know you. And so they rely on the stereotypes and the biases that they've grown up with and are comfortable with. And so I started. When I served on our management committee, and then on our compensation committee, this is what Andi was alluding to. The very first thing I learned was that the men will talk about how, in their self-evaluations, how they would have climbed to the top of the Empire State Building, circled around and rescued all the damsels in distress, and they're cool. And they all are owed all the money and all the promotions. The woman who came up with the idea that saved the client, all the money, would write her self-evaluation talking about how she was on the ABC team. And she worked with so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. And so what I learned then was that there are special rules about how women and men are expected to communicate with each other, how we're punished if we don't, and what we need to do to actually move the needle for diversity, equity and inclusion, and that is to go after the stereotypes and the biases and basically root them out. Andi Simon: Now, you and I have talked so much about these things. Your first book was about how women could communicate better using a good setup and segue from what you just said, because those women who were providing you with self-evaluations were providing you with a story. And the main story, the women's story, were very different stories about how they saw themselves, saw each other and performed. It's like a stage, they had different roles, and they played them differently. Now, if you want to leave it like that, you can. But I don't think that that's the most constructive way for us to build a better organization tapping into the talent that women bring. So now we're looking for a new model, a new way, a new story for us to develop. Your first book was about how to help women shift the way they saw themselves and communicate, am I correct? Andie Kramer: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. If you're dealt a gender bias workplace, how can you play cards in that, with that deck? What we did is, we realized, what we did is, we found that before we could talk about what women need to do, and can do, when interacting with other people, we devoted the first part of the book to what women can have conversations that we can have with ourselves. And those conversations are about confidence and positive mindset and resilience and having what's referred to as a coping sense of humor, so that all of these things that we can marshal to have a conversation with ourselves about what we can do, as to how we're going to go out into the world and interact with other people. So that's sort of the first part of the book. And then the second part of the book was, Okay, now we're interacting with other people, what do we do from the standpoint of verbal and nonverbal communications, because very often women will sit at a table, in the old days, when we used to have lots of meetings, sit at the table. And when people would be coming in late, the women would be squishing up ourselves and the guy who had two chairs, because he had put his suit coat on the second chair, he's not paying any attention to who's getting squished at the table. He's not offering to move his chair or his suit coat off of the second chair. And so what happens is, women-spaces-power, and women, we would give it up very easily. Men tend to gesture away from themselves that makes them look bigger, more powerful. Women tend to gesture towards ourselves. And so all of these sorts of nonverbal signs that are saying who's powerful and who's not. And then in the communication itself, what happens is, because of the stereotypes and biases, because women don't want to be perceived as too hard, we don't want to be perceived as getting punished for being too in your face. Basically, we couch things to try to, Well, maybe this is a bad idea. But well, it's not a bad idea. She doesn't think it's a bad idea. But she doesn't want to say I have this great idea. So maybe it's a bad idea, or I'm sorry 9 million times. And so what we'll do is, women will find ways to try to send a signal that we're not trying to be in your face. And what happens is, then the message that we're sending very often is, We're not as competent, we're not as confident, we're not as talented as somebody who's prepared to tell you to your face that they are competent, confident as hell. Andi Simon: And part of the challenge for women is that as you have been as you grew up, you learned and you mimicked others who played roles. And I do use theater often as a metaphor. And so you look, whether it's on the screen, or it's on your TV, or it's at home, and those are the models that you are being mentored by, even if it's not understood or intentional. So your styles of behaving were set a long time before you knew that you were behaving that way. And an alternative style hasn't emerged for you because you're not going to minimally mimic the guys and be looked at as a bitch or as somebody who's very tough, you really want to find something in between that plays up on the intellectual and smart side while still having an intentional approach to it that others will hear you. Part of it is how you present. The other part is how they hear you. And that becomes part of the challenge. Your second book, It's Not You, It's the Workplace was a really interesting setup for the new book. Quickly tell us a little bit about how we went from how you can change your conversation and style to the workplace understanding of it, so you can begin to think about it. And then we'll talk about your new book and the PATH program, which I think is just a brilliant way of applying it. Andie Kramer: Well, what happened was when we were talking about and writing about the issues of what women can do to overcome gender bias workplaces, we were hit with a lot of resistance. One was, Why do women have to change? And the answer to that is: We're not saying women have to change, we're just telling you that you need to know what the cards are that you were dealt and figure out how to play them to your advantage. But the other part of it was, women would say, Okay, I get it, I understand how to deal with guys. Now you're giving me some good points, I got it, but I really hate working with women. And that was a shock for me because I've never had any trouble working with women, and couldn't for the life of me figure this out. And we started to do some serious research into what's going on in the workplace that makes it that women are prepared to say, I get along fine with the guys, but I hate working with women. And what we found was that most of it has nothing to do with the women other than the fact that in a gender biased workplace, what happens is, there's one spot at the top, so that if I'm nice to you, you might take that spot away from me. There might be expectations as to who's going to make it in a small group. We also come to the workplace with all sorts of misconceptions: who we are, and what are we coming to? What are we bringing to the table? And so we come with all these suitcases filled with all these stereotypes and biases that we have about ourselves, and other people have about us, and so It's Not You, It's the Workplace starts with, Let's talk about a gender bias workplace, and how that holds women back and how it prevents women from having the opportunities to grow the way that men can comfortably in the workplace. And then what can we do better to understand each other? So It's Not You, It's the Workplace, what we did is, we started with, Okay, well, let's look at younger women and older women. Let's look at LGBTQ and other women, let's look at black women versus everybody else. Let's look at Asian women versus everybody else. And so we worked our way through many of the biggest stereotypes and biases that are affecting women's interacting with each other. And that was really what It's Not You, It's the Workplace was about trying to say. The problem is not that women don't get along with women, the problem is that the workplace is making it difficult for women to interact with other women. Andi Simon: It's a very interesting setup because you don't think of it that way; you think about women having trouble working in men's industries. But in fact, as you diversify and bring in people of different backgrounds, you begin to create a different dynamic that's going on here. When you started to write this book, the new one, I really want to talk a little bit about Beyond Bias because if the listener can hear where we're going, and the kind of problems I'm going to tell you about how you can probably address, maybe there's a bigger issue here in terms of the dynamics. Okay, that's the workplace, now what do we do? The new book coming out is called Beyond Bias. And since you may watch this podcast, even afterwards, the new book is out. It's coming in May 2023. But it's a book that you should, if you hear this before then, preorder it. But what Andie and I are both fascinated by is that diversity, equity, inclusion, little progress, or that some people have good jobs, and they're always the diverse person who has that job mess if they have some magic to figure out a solution. And I know so many of them who are really VPs of HR with, you know, global diversity, and they are all a little bit frustrated. or maybe not ready to accept the fact that little progress has been made. So Beyond Bias presents a compelling explanation of the reasons for this failure. And I think the most interesting part is that Andie and her husband have come up with a process for addressing it. Now, you have to remember, I'm an anthropologist, a corporate anthropologist, who helps organizations change. So when I was asked to review this, I went, Oh my gosh, this is right up the way in which we have to change a culture. It's going from hunting and gathering to a fishing village. And it doesn't know the first thing about how to fish. So as Beyond Bias makes clear, workplace gender inequality is a systemic problem caused largely by discriminatory operation of personnel systems, policies and practices. It's a PATH program here. I'll read you what the half steps are, and then I'll have Andie tell you about them. The PATH program attacks structural discrimination, and with it, the individual discriminatory code. The P is to prioritize the elimination of exclusionary behavior. The A is for adopt a bias-free method of decision-making. Now, that's important. Because unless you do that, then women still feel like they can't really talk about ideas or decide and feel comfortable that they aren't getting set up to fail. T is for treat inequality in the home as a workplace problem. Now, that's a whole separate topic, we never quite get to but it's important because what happens outside of the office impacts the inside. And I actually had a CEO of a company say, I think I have to go to a black church to better understand the people I'm hiring, which wasn't a bad idea. And the last, the H is halt unequal performance evaluations and leadership development opportunities. So in this wonderful book that's coming out, I can't wait to read it. I'd like Andie to talk about how they came up with this process because if it works as well as I think it will, you're changing mindset, attitudes and behaviors. And ideas are fine, but execution wins. Andie Kramer: Well, what we found was that most of the bias, the anti-bias training of the DEI training, is: these are the stereotypes, these are the biases, they're unconscious, don't be biased. Well, if it's an unconscious reaction that we have, you could tell me all day long not to be biased, and it's not going to matter. And that's ultimately what we've seen, which is not that the money has been wasted, but that all of the focus has been on trying to fix the individual. And individuals are fairly hard to fix. So what we need to do is we need to step back and say, What is it about the systems that we have in place that prevent women from succeeding? Prevent the free diversity, equity and inclusion that we're hoping and praying for and dreaming for? What can we do to change the system? So that behavior changes actually happen because the system is different. And that's what the PATH program does. So we take for example, getting rid of exclusionary behavior. Well, it's wonderful that so many organizations now require certain things. They strive for diversity. They strive for people of different backgrounds, not because it's the morally right thing to do, which it is, but because the studies all show that companies make more money and are more profitable when they actually have diverse decisions being made. And so you bring in all these diverse people, but you don't welcome them in a way that allows them to succeed. So what happens is, you bring on these people and you just throw them in the deep end and see whether they're going to swim or not. That's not an inclusive environment. So what we need to do is, we need to work towards making it so that inclusion is part of the DNA, the hardwired fabric of an organization. That's sort of the first step, but then what we did is, as we were digging deep and burning deeper into this and it was resonating more and more with us, primarily because of our decades of experience in management positions, it became clear that we can move the needle, we can do better with respect to diversity, inclusion and equity. We can do better if we change the systems, and I'll give you a simple example. I was very involved in the diversity programs at my law firm, the huge law firm that I was at. I've now this year started my own law firm. So I'm now excited with those changes. But when I was at the mega, super large law firm, what happens? Well, the stereotypes and the biases of the people who are reviewing the lawyers would come out: he's a go-getter, she needs her hand held, he's so busy that he doesn't have time for it, she just doesn't get her work done. So that the exact same behavior would be characterized differently, depending on the lens of the reviewer. And so what we did was, we got rid of all of those open-ended questions about, Is this person good for the job, and we instead put in core competencies which would require an evaluation of how to actually do the role that you're assigned. By getting rid of those open-ended questions that would allow the reviewers to say whatever they wanted, if they had to actually evaluate the people for something that was viewed as a competency, the world changed, the way that these evaluations were being done was changed. And so what we found is that even little tiny things can make dramatic differences in the way that we approach diversity, equity and inclusion. Andi Simon: Now, as you were doing that, your PATH program has four steps to it. And we know that the behavior is the important part. But you also have to visualize somehow what that behavior is actually supposed to mean. I have a friend who has $150 million company, and she's tried to make it completely equitable, so that you have men and women, people of different backgrounds. But she had to teach them how to talk to each other, and actually had to show them how to have a meeting where the women and the men could each have enough time. They could also listen to each other's ideas without judging them. And until they could see what she was talking about, it was an anathema to them. We're doing it when you're not taking a look at the video. Of course, when you see the video, I didn't really mean to do that until all of a sudden, you realize that I haven't changed anything. And that's what I need to begin to change and then reinforce because if I don't get a pat on the back for doing it, a hug, a smile, something that says well done, your brain isn't going to remember that's what you're supposed to do. So we have to be humbled by our brains. But on the other hand, you have to see it in order to understand what it is I'm supposed to do. So the four steps were intentionally designed to help you through that process, I'm expecting. Andie Kramer: Yes, exactly. And, interestingly, in the way that we've set these steps up is that you can succeed with small wins. So that it's not: that's your pat on the back, attagirl, attaboy, let's go for it kind of a thing, which is that we need to be reinforced. And so the world wasn't going to change overnight, but just taking away the ability for some senior guy to write about how he knows the young man is going to make something of his career and she's a loser. That's not going to change the world. But you got to start somewhere. And one of the other ways about eliminating discriminatory kinds of evaluations is very interesting because if you just prevent people from having in their face: this is a diverse person, and this is a diverse person, miraculously they don't see that. And so one of the examples is that in the US, many of the symphony orchestras in the 70s were almost all white men. And as soon as they started doing the auditions behind the curtain, miraculously, women and people of color were being added to the symphony. And what we can do is, in the context of just considering a resume, if we get rid of the names, the characteristics that are gender specific or ethnic, or flag racial, one thing or another, it turns out that the women get more chances to actually talk about what they would do if they have the position. And so there's little tiny steps along the way. And each one, you could get a gold star if you wanted. You could view these as progressing and acknowledging that not everybody is going to dive in with both feet to do the full PATH program. We've set it up so that each one could be a module, some of them could be done, some pieces can be done quickly, other pieces can be done over time. But when you're encouraging people, and they're seeing some success, and feeling good about it, miraculously, they're eager, more eager to go to the next step. Andi Simon: Now, I will say, this is not easy. We must be humbled about the fact that humans are cultural creatures and we give meaning to things. There's great research that I did a podcast about that came out of Stanford, where if you gave people designs or buildings or products and you said a woman built it, they didn't think much of it. But, if you said a man built it, they thought it was terrific. There's so much that in our society has to be changed. But it's also a small one at a time, so that may be a battleship, and you're already on your way forward. But there's a destination and we can see that light out there because slowly it's happening. Remember, 40% of the attorneys today are women. And that means that you got almost half. Over half of the doctors are women. Over half the dentists are women. 65% of the accounts are women. And there's a sea surge coming. And there's more women who are getting onto boards and women who are in the C-suite slowly but surely. And when they do, others see that it's possible. You know McKinsey's Women of the Workplace 2022 said, it's a great breakup. Women are leaving, and they're saying, Bye, don't need you. And they're coming and they're doing wonderful things a little like Andie did when she set up her own law firm this year. It was time to be on my own. But this is a time of change. And I think the most important thing is that you begin to keep moving forward, not go back, and not simply say, That's just the way it is, because it doesn't have to be. And I do think that the guys who support us, both your husband and mine, have been great supporters, we've been supported. And I do think that begins to build a better alignment because I'm watching my daughters and their husbands have much better alignment. Are you seeing changes in the Gen Zs? I don't think the Gen As are moving up yet. Maybe the Gen Ys, are they? I know they're more intermarried? I know there's more acceptance of diversity. Are you seeing anything there that gives us hope? Andie Kramer: What a good question. I'd like to believe so. The most recent studies, though, show that the young men are just as biased as their fathers. And so I don't think that age is going to solve the problem. I think we really have work to do, and I think you made that point at the beginning about how it's not easy but things need to be done. And I think that there may be less resistance to it by younger people because they're growing up in an environment where they're expected to be, assumed to be punished if they're not diverse and willing to be more open, but in the quiet of their own space. That's really where we have to see the changes in talking about business. What we did in Beyond Bias is, we really looked at what we put together is, three sort of core stereotypes and the biases that grow from the stereotypes, and one is affinity bias. Andi, obviously you could teach a class on it, about how we believe that we're like people who are like us out of group bias, which is that we don't like people who are not like us. Gender bias, which we've been talking about, is obviously a key part of our books. But there's also other biases that we talk about in Beyond Bias. One of them is called status quo bias. And we're prepared to defend environments, situations and workplaces that are not good just because they're there. And so the interesting studies will show that just proving to somebody that they could be better by making a change is not enough to overcome the status quo bias. You have to prove to them that it's two and a half times greater benefit to them. And so we have a resistance. We have people who are at the top saying, It's not broke, I don't need to fix it. We have people who are saying, Maybe it's broke, but I benefit from it so I'm going to be quiet. And then we have people who say, It hurts me, but change is scary. Andi Simon: Yes. And there's also a lack of trust that the new is better than what is. We know what is. I know how to deal with it. My day is pretty well structured, I can get through it. If there are microaggressions, oh, I figured out how to deal with those little dudes. I have a friend who's president of an insurance company. And she tells a story about being the coat girl. She said, It didn't matter what meeting, the guys gave me their coats to hang up. I went to Lloyds of London to bring them a client. And they gave me the coats to hang up until I went in front of them and said, Let me tell you about the client I brought. Then there's the stories that Sheryl Sandberg tells about women who sit on the sides and don't come up to the table. To your point about making space. I wonder whether the hybrid workplace has created opportunities for transformation in a different fashion because of the virtual meetings. The research says that women still can't say anything. Andie Kramer: Okay, they still can't say anything. Well, I'm personally ambivalent, but I believe that the studies are going to show that women need to be where the action is. And in many workplaces, they can't just be at home or they will be left behind because of out of sight, out of mind. So we have to worry about that, even though it might be more comfortable, convenient or whatever, to be working at home. So we have to keep that in mind. The other thing, though, is that her being a coat girl, well, you know, I can't tell you how many cups of coffee I've poured at meetings. How many times I've been asked to do one thing or another. But in our book, Beyond Bias, about breaking through bias, one of the things we recommend is, if you're the one who will always get told to go pick up the phone and call for this or call for that, don't sit by the phone. Don't be the one who makes it easy for them to just make that assumption about you. Andi Simon: Well, and that comes from setting the stage early on, about what's acceptable or not. Those are important conversations and you have to do them in a way which doesn't build animosity, like collaboration. And those are important words, like I preach in my leadership academies. The words collaboration, coordination, creative problem solving, are all important. You know, Andie, we could talk a lot but I think it's time to wrap up. When does the book come out or they can buy it now. It's available as a preorder on Amazon? Andie Kramer: Yeah, I think all the online bookstores have it. Andi Simon: Good, we'll make sure it's on both the blog and the video. It's called Beyond Bias: The Path To End Gender Inequality At Work and it's going to be a fabulous book for us to read. You can read all three books and it won't hurt you at all. But now the thing is, once you've read the book, how do you do something, and we're both big fans of small wins. What I love is we can visualize where we want to go, a diverse workforce that feels like they're being treated equitably. And there's inclusion. So when we go out for beers at night, we ask the women to join us, even though sometimes it's hard to do. Or conversely, we figure out ways for them to do things that we join them there. But it's interesting to be intentional about it, and to find small wins, and every time you do celebrate the win because your mind remembers what it celebrates. So if you really want to make the changes stick, you have to do both a vision of where you're going and visualization of action towards there and celebrate. Just take those things to Andie's PATH program and begin to watch the organization move because they can see where you want to go. And often I find that they don't know what words really mean. What does equitable mean? What does inclusion mean? What does belonging mean? We keep talking. Andie, thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure again. Andie Kramer: No, thank you very much for having me. I've enjoyed the conversation and hope that we can make that path forward to eliminating gender inequality in the workplace. Andi Simon: And I'm sure Beyond Bias will do just that. For all of our listeners and our viewers, thank you for coming. You keep sending me great people to interview. I happened to meet Andie through somebody who interviewed me and said, You got to talk to Andie Kramer. It's been great, a great colleague to have and a friend to know. Info@Andisimon.com gets your inquiries right to us. We enjoy listening and reading them and finding new people to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And remember, my books are available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble and anywhere else, and they're really cool. People keep coming back and saying that's a really cool book. So I would like to share my coolness with you. Thanks so much. Bye now.

Hear an incredible story of courage, kindness and resistance Mimica Tsezana-Hyman is our guest on this podcast today. It is difficult to tell you about all that we discussed in a short paragraph. I encourage you to read the transcript and listen to the entire podcast, or watch it, which is even better. Mimica has a great story to tell which will move you deeply. The question is, how does an entire Jewish community escape the atrocities of Hitler's 1943 occupation of Zakynthos, a small island in Greece? Because of courage, and kindness, they all survived, which is why Mimica is alive today. She will tell you about her own personal discoveries and what she is doing to keep our understanding of that horrific period alive so we don't find ourselves doing that again. It's an amazing story. I urge you to listen and be changed. Watch and listen to our conversation here Mimica is doing something quite remarkable Mimica was introduced to me by a good friend of mine, ML Ball, who said, “You must talk to Mimica. She's Greek and has an amazing story to tell.” I was absolutely intrigued because I did my Ph.D. research in Athens. I took my daughters with me to the Greek island of Antiparos when they were four and five to spend three months learning about Greek women. I really loved the Greek culture, and am so glad that I had a chance to live in it, learn about it, and share it with my family. But I had never heard about this story before, and I am so glad I know it now. Mimica grew up in Athens, graduated high school, then studied linguistics at Tel Aviv University. She emigrated to the United States in 1987 and now lives in Newburgh, New York, with her husband, Barry Hyman. Her family is very engaged in her story and the tragedy that was avoided in Greece so many years ago. She discovered this story a little bit by chance, and it has taken her on a journey you'll enjoy listening to.  Sharing the past to educate and safeguard the future For the past fifteen years, Mimica has been retelling the story of the Zakynthos Jewish community's miraculous survival through the presentation of the documentary “Song of Life” by Tony Lykouressis and the personal recollections of her father, uncle and grandparents. Her presentations summarize Jewish life on Zakynthos in the days before World War II, and describe how when Hitler's Nazis came to the island in 1943, the Jews were protected by the Metropolitan, the mayor, and the island's residents. All 275 Jews, the entire Jewish population on Zakynthos, were saved. Their survival came through the courage of the non-Jews living in the villages and the powerful actions of Mayor Loukas Karrer and Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou.  I am not going to give away the rest of the story. Listen in, watch, and read the transcript. Just remember that courageous people can rise against tyranny and save the lives of others if they choose to. What would each of us have done? A big question to ask as we live in a very volatile and violent world today. To contact Mimica, you can find her on LinkedIn or email her at mimicahyman@gmail.com. To see the list of all the places Mimica has given her presentation since 2000, click here. More stories of courage and human kindness:  Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You? Podcast: Patrik Birkhane—Helping Us Live Healthier, Happier And More Peaceful Lives Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. Remember, On the Brink is designed to help you get off the brink and help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can change. That may be something you want to do or don't want to do. But, I want to bring you people who are going to help you see the world through a very fresh perspective. I'm thrilled today to bring you Mimica Tsezana-Hyman. Mimica has a great story to tell. I'm going to let her tell you about it. But the question is: How does an entire Jewish community escape the atrocities of Hitler's occupation in 1943 on a small island in Greece? That's sort of a setup for today, because she's going to tell you about her own personal discoveries, and what she is doing in order to keep our understanding of the atrocities of that period alive and aware so that we don't find ourselves doing them again, even in bullying somebody. A little bit more about Mimica. She was introduced to me by a good friend of mine who said, "You must talk to Mimica. She's doing something quite remarkable," and that she is. She was born in Athens. Now I was absolutely wonderfully intrigued because I did my research in Athens. I took my daughters when they were four and five to spend three months learning about Greek women. I went to the Basilica. I really love Greek culture and I was interested in how it changes when it comes to the United States. She grew up there in Athens and graduated from high school, and then studied linguistics at Tel Aviv University. She emigrated to the United States in 1987. She lives in Newburgh, New York with her husband, Barry Hyman. She has a daughter, Sabrina, and a son, Samuel. And they are all very engaged in her new discovery because what she discovered was a little bit by chance, but it has taken her on a journey that you're going to enjoy listening to. Mimica, thank you for joining me today. Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: Thank you for having me, Andi. Andi Simon: It's such a pleasure. Tell the listeners a good deal more about your own background, this discovery that happened by chance, and what happened as a result of it, because all of us go through life and then have an aha moment and epiphany. And some take us in new directions and others take us deeper into where we are. Who is Mimica, what is your journey? Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: I was born in Athens, Greece. I grew up during the 60s. And towards the end of the 60s, the government changed and we had a dictatorship. During the dictatorship, I was a little girl, I had no idea. My parents never spoke of politics in the house. And a friend of mine told me one time we were out walking, he says, "You know, we cannot be speaking about politics because we're not allowed to. Things may happen." And then all of a sudden I said, "What things may happen?" But it stayed there. At home as I was growing up, I had my grandmother, my aunt, my uncle, my father, my mother. Life was very simple, very beautiful. We never spoken about what this generation had gone through. Not a word about the Holocaust. I remember specifically, Mrs. Esther was my grandmother's friend and Mrs. Esther had the number on her arm. And I would ask my grandmother, "Why does Mrs. Esther have a number written on her arm?" And my grandmother would say, "Oh, you don't know what we went through. I can't tell you. Something happened. I can't tell you." And this is where it would end. My grandmother would never speak about it. So I figured I wasn't supposed to ask anymore. My generation, it's not only me and my brothers, it was the entire generation, the second generation post-Holocaust. We grew up with an immense amount of love and immense amount of protection from the family. And we never knew why. We thought that every child in the world was being brought up like that. We didn't know why. As we grew up, we realized that there was a stronger love towards us. We felt special. When I went to Tel Aviv University, I met other people my age. I realized that they grew up the same way. They felt special. My friend Kosovo from Spain, my friend Carla from Brazil, from Iran, I had friends from Turkey, from all over. Our generation had something in common. We were special, and we didn't know how it happened. Why? My father was very traditional in his Judaism. So tradition carried on beyond holidays. We were not allowed to turn on and off the light. And this was very strange, because the other Jewish people, the other members of the Jewish community of Athens, they would allow their kids to turn on and off the lights. My father was very scarred by the Holocaust. He was very influenced. But he never told us why this is the way he was. And we had to obey, we had to listen because otherwise... I was a little miserable at home. That said, we had Christian friends, and of course, I went to the Jewish Elementary School of the Jewish community of Athens. And then I went to the American High School. And there I met a lot of other Christian classmates. In the elementary school, everybody was Jewish, but in the high school, I was the minority. And actually, it was wonderful because during the lesson of religion, the Jewish kids and one Catholic, we were allowed to leave the classroom, go to the library and focus on our homework. So that was the bonus of being Jewish. Having said that, my name Mimica is not my true name. This is my Hollywood name. This is the name that everybody knew me by. Everybody was calling me that. And it wasn't only me. It was all the Jewish kids of my generation. We had our Hebrew names on our documents, on our diplomas, on our IDs, on our bank accounts, on everything else. But for everyday life, we were called Mimica, Solomon was called Sony, David was called Vikos, etc. My father Menahem-Moses was called Armando. My uncle Elkana was called Noulis. So we had the names that were the everyday names. But when I came to America, I said, "Oh well, you know, this is my Hollywood name" because everybody signs a check to me, Mimica Hyman. And the bank looks at my papers and says, "This is Simha Hyman" and I say, "Yes, Mimica is my Hollywood name." It does cause a little bit of a problem but what can I do. And then of course I tell them, "You know, I'm a Greek Jew and this is what we do because anti-Semitism in Greece is still quite high." During the Holocaust, Greece lost 87% of the Jews. So the story that I am engaged with, which is the story of my father and the Jewish community of the island of Zakynthos, is a very unique story. It's a story of a mayor, a priest, and the people of the island of Zakynthos saving the entire Jewish community of the island, saving 275 people and breathing life to the generations that followed. I am here with my kids, my brothers, my niece, my nephews. We are here because of that act. I didn't know about the story. Life continued. We kept our traditions, we had our seders and we went to the synagogue every high holiday and Passover. And then I decided to go and study in Tel Aviv. And my mother told me, "Every Wednesday you're going to find a public phone, and you're going to call me collect so that I know that you are well," because of course, there were no cell phones in those days. The dormitories of Tel Aviv University did not have phones in the rooms of the students. And every Wednesday I was going to that phone calling my mother to tell her that I am alive and I am well. One Wednesday, my mother tells me, "Don't call me next week because we're not going to be here." It was winter time. So where are you going? My parents rarely left Athens. "Oh, we are going to Zakynthos." "Why are you going? It's winter time." Zakynthos was a summer destination, a beautiful island with the Caretta turtles that chose that island to give birth. You know, Greenpeace was protecting the beaches there. So we are not allowed to speak loudly. You're not allowed to speak at all, don't disturb the turtles. But everything was happening in the summertime here because the planets are going into winter time. "Oh we're going to honor a priest and the mayor." I was brought up so Jewish that I wasn't even allowed to speak to a normal Christian. Here you are going to honor a priest? Something is not right. Something was very, very different. And I said, "Dad is going to honor a priest?" "Well, don't you know this story?" "What story?" and she told me the story. She told me the story that I had never heard before. I didn't know. In 1941, the Italians had invaded the island of Zakynthos during the Italian occupation. The people of Zakynthos were living in fear as did everybody. But the Italians were not very aggressive. In 1943, The Germans came to the island; they sent the Italians away. And the next morning, Officer Berens calls Mayor Loukas and tells him, "I want the list with the Jews of the island. Be very careful because the next time it will be my gun that will speak instead of my mouth." Mayor Loukas Karrer said, "Okay, tomorrow you will have the list." He goes away. He speaks to the Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou, they call the rabbi. And they decide overnight to tell the Jews of the island to leave their homes overnight and go hide in the mountains. They tell the locals, "Protect them and don't give them away."  My grandmother, she was the daughter of a merchant and her hobby was jewelry. I must say that in those days up until today, there was no stock market. So jewelry was not only given as a form of beauty and durability, but because of the gold or the silver metal that they were made of, it was also given as a form of investment because women were not allowed to work. So they went from the house of the father to the house of the future husband or the husband. So all they had were the jewelry. If they would find themselves in need, they would exchange jewelry towards whatever the need was. She talked about how my grandmother put all her jewelry inside, tied it around her waist, threw a long skirt over it, and she went hiding in the mountains with the rest of the family for an entire year. They lived through selling the jewelry or exchanging the jewelry towards satisfying their daily needs. The locals that were hiding them were very good to them. They would bring them some bread or food or whatever they could because don't forget, there wasn't a lot of food in those days. But still they did what they could. The next morning, they found themselves in front of the German officer with a list. On the list there were two names written in German and in Greek: Mayor Loukas Karrer. Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou. "Take us. The Jews are part of our followers. They have done no harm, they will never do any harm. This is our decision." Through further negotiations, they were able to save 275 Jews. My father, my grandmother and my uncle were part of that Jewish community. At this point, I must point out that the neighboring island of Corfu which also had a much more vibrant and more affluent Jewish community. lost 95% of the Jews. The locals handed the Jews to the Germans. I remember when I was writing my speech...actually, I should tell you how I started doing speeches about this story in the year 2000. I was expecting my son. And all of a sudden my aunt and my mother called me. The reason? "A documentary is being done and your uncle is part of the documentary. And he's becoming a star." I said, "Send me a copy." "Yes, yes, we will send you a copy." I never saw a copy. The documentary is traveling around Europe, it went to Switzerland and it went to France, and it went here and it went there. "Send me a copy." "Yes, yes, we'll send you a copy." I never saw a copy.  Life continued in America. And one evening, I got a call from a friend across the river, George Petrakis. He lived in Poughkeepsie. And he tells me, "Mimica, turn on the satellite TV, there are some Jewish ladies that are speaking. You may know them." Now, of course, Greece having lost 87% of the Jews was left with 5000 Jews. When I left Greece, it was 4999, the Jews that were left there. "You may know those ladies." So I turn on the TV and I see those ladies, and they did look very familiar to me, and all of a sudden here is my uncle sitting in his living room having all those photographs on the mantle of his fireplace. One of them actually was of my wedding. And I said, "Oh my God, this must be the documentary about the story of the Jewish community of Zakynthos during World War II." So I told Sabrina and Samuel, "Please take your negotiations to the other room because I really have to watch this." And the more I'm watching, here are some cousins from Corfu, survivors, and here are other people that I knew from the Jewish community of Zakynthos. And all of a sudden tears come down my face. And my husband came with a box of tissues and he sat quietly next to me on the sofa. When the documentary ended, I had an outpour of expressions and feelings. I went in front of the computer, and I started writing an email to all my friends. That email traveled. And all of a sudden, I'm getting responses from people I had never even met. And one of the responses was from a couple that were born and raised in the island of Zakynthos. They were diplomats and at the time they were serving as the Greek Consulate in Montreal. His name is Harry Manesis and his wife Efi Pylarinou. During the Passover vacation, we took the kids and we went to Montreal. We met with them and I told both of them, "You know, I started doing these presentations and people are interested," and Harry turns to me and says, "Mimica, take a piece of paper and write down every presentation that you do, because the day will come that you will not remember how many presentations you have done." And thank God that I listened to him because I am at this point that I don't remember how many have done if I don't look at the paper. That winter, when Greece commemorates the Holocaust of the Jewish community, the Greek Consulate of Manhattan was showing this film, “Song of Life” by Tony Lykouressis. And of course, I went because I always want to support anything that has to do with the Jewish community of Greece, and Athens especially, and they asked me to speak. And I spoke and my husband said, "People were crying." I said, "Was I that bad?" He says, "No, I think you touched them, you touched their feelings. It is very rare that adults will tear." I said, "Okay, that's nice." And then I was invited to speak at the second annual Greek Film Festival in Manhattan. And I went to speak and of course, my son was six years old at the time, and he was very attached to me. And I remember at that event, they first showed the movie, which was an hour and 10 or 15 minutes long. That's how long the “Song of Life” is. And I was drawing all kinds of little animals for my son on the back of my speech. So when I got up to speak, and I had my speech, the audience could see all the little turtles and rabbits and elephants that I drew. But it was very interesting. In every presentation that they have done, something happens that makes me remember the presentation. In this one, I remember the people were lining up around the block. It was at the Village Cinema down in the Village. And my husband says, "Mimica, you have to speak to this gentleman." And of course, I have to tell you, when I went to that first actual presentation, I brought with me Anna Yianakis who has a Greek restaurant in Newburgh, I brought with me the Foundas couple who had a beauty salon, I brought with me George Petrakis, my kids, my husband, so I had all my close friends that supported what I was about to do. They came with me down to Manhattan. So my husband finds a man and says, "Mimica, you have to speak to this man." And I go, it was a gentleman with a long coat. And he opens his jacket, and he brings out a photograph and he says, "Mimica, look at this photograph. Is this your father?" I look at him and I said "No." He says, "This is my father and they were friends. Are you sure this is not your father?" I said "No but I know who you are. You are Jeff Mordos, our fathers were friends, you came to Zakynthos back in 1967, 1968, you were from America, you spoke English. I couldn't believe how well you spoke your Greek, then you had an accent." He just couldn't believe I knew who he was. And we've stayed friends ever since. I remember my mother telling me, "Mimica you have a husband that works from five to nine, you have two small kids, what do you need this for?" I wasn't doing it for the money. And that was a little bit discouraging. And then I sat back and I said, The story must be told, because it's a story with a lot of messages. First of all, it is the only story in the European Holocaust selection of stories that you have the state, the church and the people work together towards a successful result. The Jews were hidden by monasteries, by families, by individuals, by organizations, but here, having such a collaboration of the state, the church and the people to work together and have a successful result, it's unheard of. And that to me, it gave me a reason to get up and speak. When I speak to high schools, and usually I speak to the 12th grade. I tell them, "Now that you're about to graduate and your life will change, make sure you pick your leaders well, because these people listen to their leaders. Keep your friendships because it's the friends and the neighbors that hid the Jews, protected them and saved them." I tell them, "Listen to what goes on around you in a big university, because Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou had befriended Hitler at Munich University when he was a student. I will never forget that my uncle and my father told me that the people of Zakynthos knew of what was going on in other parts of the world. They knew how the Jews were being burned dead or alive, mass graves, executions, etc. I mean, not to forget all the experiments that were done and we have all these beautiful medicines today. They even told me that one day, there was a truck that came to the island of Zakynthos with soap, and they saw that the truck had come from Germany. And they took this soap and they buried it because they knew it was the body of a Jewish person. A friend asked me, "Mimica, how did the people of Zakynthos know that the Germans were killing the Jews? Here we know that in other parts of Europe, the Jews like flocks they were going to the center square of their town. They went in the trains, they went in the trucks, they went in the boats. If they knew that they were walking towards their deaths, they would have reacted. How come the people of Zakynthos knew and they protected them?" I said, "That's a good question." So I go back to my uncle and my father, and my uncle tells me the following story. And this is a story where I alert the students of high school. And I say, "This is where you come in. The family in downtown Zakynthos, they had the pharmacy, had the son. The son went to study medicine in Germany. During the summer vacation, the boy came home and told them what was going on. And of course, the parents spread the bad news to the rest of the island. So when you go to the universities, keep your eyes and ears open, see what's going on around. You are not invisible. You are very important and you  matter." These are the messages that I want to pass to the people that hear my speeches. Kindness, respect for human rights, are more contagious than hatred and destruction. And that's what we should aim for. My father told me that one time the Germans had put him on the line to impose forced labor onto him and other people. The Christians were going in front of my father, directing him towards the end of the line, trying to avoid contact with the German officers that were in the front of the line and were dispersing people to work. This is an unbelievable act of kindness.  The sister of Metropolitan Chrysostomos Dimitriou, Mrs. Vasiliki Stravolemou, was the head of the Home Economics School in the island. I have to point out that this was the only university for women in those days. She had some Jewish students, and they got sick, and they needed medical attention, and she had to bring them to a doctor. Now the only facility for medical care was the German military hospital. What was she going to do? She takes the girls, she finds herself in front of the German doctor and says, "I bring to you these girls, as patients and not as Jews. I expect you to remember that you gave the oath of Hippocrates when you became a doctor and treat them." The German doctor treated them and on the way out he told her, "Medicine is a science and awaits patients." Which was wonderful. I mean, she did everything that she was supposed to do. She was gutsy and strong and she really helped. My father tells me a story. He says, "When we were hiding in the village of Gaitani, at the Sarakini family, they had the little black dog." And one day my father was in one of those rooms of the house. And a soldier comes into the house looking for men to put them to forced labor. And the dog starts barking. I mean, as the soldier is looking in the rooms, he's quiet for the first, second, third room, and starts barking at the soldier when he was about to enter the room where my father was hiding. He made so much noise, that drove the soldier away. My father tells me, "You know, that dog that day saved my life." Even the pets were protecting the Jews in that island. But I must tell you my father never allowed pets in the house. He was allergic or I don't know how to explain this, he was too clean. But every time that we had a meal, he would take the leftovers for the stray dogs and the stray cats. I think this was something that stayed with him all his life. There were other stories but I think I've told you the most part, the biggest part of my journey. Is there anything that you can remember Andi that I should mention? Andi Simon: No, I'm listening here as I'm sure our listeners and viewers are listening, because remember, when you tell a story, the story in somebody's mind begins to change. And last night before our podcast today, I watched “Song of Life” by Tony Lykouressis. It is available on YouTube. It's about an hour. It is transformative. The people in it are like Mimica's uncle: anxious to tell you their story. You will never know the story. We're never going to go back to the past. But the past sets the stage for the future. And what Mimica is communicating to us is this amazing place where people came together in a very unusual way to save others and to give them love. One of the scenes in there is, one of the gentlemen goes back to the village where he was being cared for. And the woman is crying and she is hugging him. And then at the end of the video it really brings tears to your eyes, because they're all together around the table. Nothing better than breaking bread together. And the music and they're singing. And the singing of the songs remind us that we are all one in a fashion that brings us back to love each other. Mimica, you're smiling at me. Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: I have to tell you about that specific scene when Samuel would go to Mrs. Rapsomaniki. They used to, when they would hear the Germans were coming, they would leave the baby with her and go hiding somewhere else. And it was an unbelievable scene to see her alive and well, to come out of her house and hug each other. They were more than family, these people.  But what was interesting to me is, you know, when I was growing up, in my generation, we cared about what we looked like. We cared about what face cream to put on, to go to the gym, to look good. I mean, before we did anything in our daily lives, we always cared about what we looked like, and the hair, and the things, and the jewelry. And here is a giant of a hero coming out with just a plain dress. She was a little heavy. She didn't care about the gym. She didn't care about fashion, she didn't care about going to the hairdresser. She didn't care about her looks. Yet here is a hero, a true life hero. So I remember specifically, I was at a school where all the girls looked alike. And they had the long hair and they had the similar outfits and so on. And it was clear to me that this was done with a lot of attention to the looks. And I said, "Now look at this woman. Do you see this woman? She saved an entire family. Do you think she goes to the gym? No. Do you think she goes to Bloomingdale's to buy clothes? No. Do you think she goes to the hairdresser to have beautiful hair? Do you think she does makeup? No. Yet she is the biggest hero, in her own right. You know, it was very interesting that you were impressed by the same part of the movie that I was. Also, I have to say, this is very important, that when everything ended, my father and my uncle and all the other Jews of the island donated the windows and their personal labor for the St. Eunysis Cathedral. I have to say that in Greece, the main religion is Greek Orthodox. And in Greek Orthodoxy, there are a lot of saints. So every island has this saint that is the protector of the island. Zakynthos has St. Eunysis and this was the cathedral that was being erected. And when it came to finding proposals about the windows, the Jews went and said, "This is our expense. We will do it as a give back because of our gratitude to our saviors." Another thing that was very interesting to me is that, and this is a very touching moment, in 1953 there was a massive earthquake that leveled the island. And that's when the Jewish community left the island. Part of the Jewish community went to Israel and part of it went to Athens. My family decided to go to Athens. The first boats that arrived in the island with humanitarian and medical help were the ones of the Israeli Navy. And it's very interesting because now we could give back. Up until then, we were just guests, and nobody wants guests to stay on their premises forever. It's very touching for me. Um, but you know, looking back at the summers that I spent in the island, the people that I met didn't know about this story. And I usually finish my speech by saying that I didn't know then, while I was enjoying everything that the island had to offer: the beautiful beaches, the beautiful weather, the beautiful restaurants where the waiters throw away the apron and get their guitars and they start singing to you the very traditional Zakythenian songs, the cantadas. I didn't know that I was brought to the safest place on earth that a Jew could have been brought. Life continues. And the people of Zakynthos, some of them still don't know the story but slowly, slowly, they will learn it. Andi Simon: Here's what I'd like to do. Because part of the joy that you're bringing, in sharing this, is inspiring young people and people like ourselves, to not simply accept what is but to understand the role we can play through kindness, through courage, through boldness, to change. And I must tell you that the world isn't easy right now. And giving back is very important and kindness. You have to remember that acts of kindness improve your own sense of well-being in ways that are difficult to truly understand. You too can do things that are going to make someone else's life really beautiful. And what Mimica is doing is taking this story, part her story and part the larger story and making it come alive so others can in fact, both understand it, learn from it, and then look at their own lives and make sure that they too can do something meaningful, moral, ethical, and kind. Mimica, last thoughts as we wrap up, because I think this has been a beautiful opportunity. You did not read your speech but you told it from your heart, and I just loved it. Any last thoughts for the listener? Mimica Tsezana-Hyman: Yes. I think that this story should be told everywhere, especially in Holocaust classes and young adults. We teach Holocaust to our schools. And they have to learn about the atrocities that happened and more or less genocide that the Jewish people underwent. But also they have to learn about the happy stories, and this is a happy story. To me, it's very important to direct the young people towards doing good, not only showing them how horrible other people behave, but how beautiful life can be by doing good. Andi Simon: Loving, caring for each other. This is truly a beautiful story. I will tell the listeners that in the blog post and on the video, I'll have the link to “Song of Life" and I urge you to watch it. It captivates you and you cannot leave it until it's over. And then you want to know, what has happened next, and so Mimica will bring you back at another time to talk about the impact you're having on those students, the stories they're bringing you, and I urge our listeners to send us your stories. I'm going to wrap up now because I think it's time for us to let our listeners move on. Here's what I'd like you to do: info@Andisimon.com is where you can get information about both Mimica and about our work. And I'd like to help you see, feel and think in new ways. This certainly has been a transformative interview. Our podcast is just beautiful. And when you watch it, you're going to be engaged with Mimica as if she's standing in front of you. Invite her, invite her to come. I promise we will have all her information there so that you can find her as well. And take a look at her website. She'll tell you about the Jewish Museum she set up at the temple, all kinds of things that she's doing to make this world come alive for people who are Jewish and not Jewish together, because it isn't just one or the other, it's together we can do better. I want to say goodbye, and thank you all for coming. Bye bye now. 

Hear how to rethink your life to find what really makes you happy Today's guest is Julia Wolfendale, executive coach and director at On The Up Consulting. Julia is from the UK and has developed an exciting and valuable approach to helping people find happiness, success and fulfillment. Her book is entitled Five Ways to Focus and we discuss it as a starting point to help people better understand themselves. Julia has a master's in leadership and has trained and coached hundreds of leaders on understanding themselves and improving their daily lives. You are going to find our discussion itself very interesting. Do please tune in! Watch and listen to our conversation here The five ways to focus These are significant to understand, and they follow other research which we use at SAMC to help our clients understand why focus is essential to their success. The five forces are freedom, money, recognition, fellowship and fulfillment. As you listen to Julia, you're going to ask yourself, Am I the person I would like to be? Or do I need to take stock of where I am and consider where I'm going?  At Simon Associates, we have developed a program that's entirely complementary to Julia's approach. Take a look at it at www.rethinkwithandisimon.com. It's all about trying to discover how can we change our story to find the kind of person that we want to be? And so much of this has to do with how the mind works to keep you comfortable and confident that where you are now is the best place for you.  To connect with Julia, you'll find her on LinkedIn, Twitter and her website On The Up Consulting, or email her: julia@ontheupconsulting.com.  Ready to examine what really motivates you and makes you happy? Start here: Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times! Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life? Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose! Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. My job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways so you can get off the brink. And I'm always delighted to find people who are going to help you do just that. You know, I'm a corporate anthropologist. I'm a business owner and entrepreneur. I coach lots of folks. But I've learned over the years that new ideas come to you from different places in different ways. And somehow you'll hear something, and you'll go, oh, that's what Andi's been saying. But here's somebody else who said it and all of a sudden it clicked, and it helps me do something I've been trying to do. So I have with me today a wonderful woman from England. And if you've been listening, we've had somebody from Paris, and somebody from South Africa. The world is coming to us and we're sharing great ideas. Julia Wolfendale is a terrific individual for you to listen to. Let me tell you about her and then she'll tell you about her own journey. She's an executive coach and director at On The Up Consulting. What a great name! She's the author of a new book called Five Ways to Focus. And she's qualified to the master's level in leadership. She has trained and coached hundreds of leaders on how to have the best sales and get things on the up. She had previous roles as a marketing director for a large global company and also worked in large public sector companies. She's developed an innovative set of tools, training courses and programs to transform, and I say this is a very important thing, to transform conversations at work. We've had other podcast guests who talked about conversations, and Judith Glaser has that wonderful book called Conversational Intelligence that I use in all my leadership academies. But we live conversations. And those are the crux of who we are and how we interact. She now specializes in strength-based coaching and writing, helping organizations get the best out of their people with coaching conversations. So this is going to be such fun. And she also wrote another book called The Trouble with Elephants that she started when she was 12. And so there's a story behind that story I'm sure. Julia, thank you for joining me today. Julia Wolfendale: Hi, it's great to see you, Andrea, thank you for having me. Andi Simon: Julia, I gave them the overview of your bio, but I know your story is a rich and very important one for them to understand why as an executive coach and a trainer, you've moved into this whole area of improving conversations, but building better places to be and also to find them fulfillment and happiness. Who is Julia? Let's understand who you are so they can understand why this matters so much, please. Julia Wolfendale: Oh, thank you, Andrea. So I guess my work career really started out when I got a Business Studies degree and went to work for Adidas, the sports clothing brand, and really being part of a big corporate setup really interested me. And then I was fortunate enough to move on and become a marketing director at Helly Hansen, again, a global sports brand. And having that opportunity to see different cultures, different people in different cultures of the organization, and in different countries in the organization sort of coming together and sharing ideas, that was always something that really interested me. But particularly, I guess I've always been interested in what motivates people, what gets them to do the amazing things, and working with sports brands was really interesting because being able to see people perform at their best, use their body in the most incredible ways to compete and to perform and to really challenge themselves. But from a marketing point of view, I was interested in how do you get people to think differently about what they're capable of. So I suppose there was always something in me that led me to now, which is this coaching. So really recognizing that we are capable of so much more. And sometimes we have to challenge our situations, our environments, and ourselves, to make some changes to think differently and to find ways that we can be at our best. So that's taken me many years to kind of come to this point now where I can say I have a successful coaching consultancy. I'm coaching leaders. Throughout the week, people have really important jobs and CEOs of hospitals and working with public sector organizations where people have really tough jobs and helping them in their professional lives, and thinking about how they can be at their best, but I also train in organizations and help them develop their leaders by having chats that matter. And that's our signature program, which is about changing the way they have conversations with their people using a coaching style of recognizing people's strengths, really unlocking that potential, and tapping into people's passions and what they care about so that they can be motivated and successful, happy and fulfilled at work. And I guess that's what so many of us care about. But perhaps we don't always have the ways to do that. And I suppose that's why I wrote the book, because sometimes having the chance to focus on the stuff that matters to us and recognize what we're capable of is kind of the first step towards that. So the book, Five Ways to Focus, is around dealing with all the other stuff we could be doing. We end up getting involved in all the other things that we're thinking about, and actually just getting it down to really what matters to you. What changes are you ready and able to make? And what difference will that make for you, if you did? Andi Simon: You know, it's interesting, because I have several leadership academies for corporations. And we're actually at a point where we're talking about understanding that leaders must focus on themselves on one hand, and on empathy on the other, and then the third on the environment around which they are operating. And I often worry that there are too many things to focus on. And we're preaching a methodology of getting to understand what matters at the moment. I am so interested in what you have learned. Talk to us more about when you say the word focus in on conversations, intelligent conversations, give us a little bit more flesh to this so that I think our listeners and viewers can all sort of grab what is it you've discovered. Julia Wolfendale: Well, I think it's around cutting through the noise and the distraction. So sometimes the little distractions get in the way of us getting on with the work that needs to be done, or the plans that we need to make. But I think there's also the kind of the internal noise as well. There's the self-limiting beliefs that show up the things that we give too much attention to really, and believing when actually we perhaps could look at them, listen to them differently, challenge them, question ourselves. I think being able to focus on some of the things that are physically and literally in our way, but also what are the things that we've kind of manifested in our own minds that we believe to be our obstacles, but we've had them for so long that they've become things that we don't even imagine not having that or don't even imagine overcoming. So the book really helps break down and is focused around what matters much. So really getting someone to understand, what are they really looking for? And if they are thinking about a career change, really helping them understand and assess their life right now. What's working well, in all aspects of their lives. And what do they want to have more of? What do they need less of? You know, why they value the things that they give so much time and attention to? Or do they value the time? And do they value those things or if they just took over? And so helping people sort of reassess their lives and their work included in that. And help them think about what do they want to learn? What do they want to be able to be or be able to do? And then also helping them think about the things that are really driving them. So what are they looking for, by way of a change, and if it is a career change, there might be things that matter to them that they have lost sight of? So I do find that when I'm coaching with people, when I ask them questions around some of the one of the five ways to focus is, what are you really looking for, and it's based around freedom, fellowship, fulfillment, kudasai, and money and getting people to rank those in order. So if freedom is a big one, it might be because it might be their first thing, and they realize they don't have enough of that now. And that's what they really do want to focus on. So I'll ask them about, what does freedom mean to you? And it might mean they've got more freedom to make decisions, so more autonomy. It might mean freedom in the sense of being able to have a better flexible working schedule and then they will come to fellowship and it might mean that fellowship is something that is important to them, and having a sense of belonging. Great connections with people at work really matters. And, they may not have that now and people are suffering from that, aren't they, because of the hybrid working environment and so long remote working, that sense of fellowship might really matter to somebody, but they kind of lost it or forgotten about that. So help them understand what does fellowship mean to them? And if they're looking for it, what would it be? How could it be represented at work, so that it might be about moving into a new team, or joining a new organization where they really share the same values and they feel really connected. And so they belong and that's a strong driver for people's sense of belonging. Or it might be fulfilling. And I think too often we forget to think about what makes us feel good about work. Work can take up a lot of our lives, but it can be so much more enjoyable when there's a sense of purpose and a sense of personal reward, as well as you might be serving others and that might be enough. So where does that fulfillment come from? And what does that look like, and really getting people to recognize that. I'm feeling unfulfilled at work and that's the thing that I want to prioritize. That's something I want to focus on. And that's such a lightbulb moment when people realize that something is missing. But that's not the thing that's ever in a job description, or ever advertised. You don't apply for a job because that gives me fulfillment? No, you just hope that might come along. Or you might forget that that was ever important at all. And then curious, what do you want to be known for? What is it that you might stand out? And there might be that you have some great contribution to make, but it's just not being seen or heard in your organization? Or in your role? Have you been known for that thing that you do or the thing that you want that you want to have that kind of recognition for? And you might be the go-to person in your organization for that. But is there another place where that could be valued as well? And you take that to a sort of a biggest regret or grander scale? Or do you want to start a blog around the thing that you know really well that other people struggle to express or struggle to understand? And then, you know, money. What will it take? Do you have enough already in use, this is just okay. Just finding something that will equally help you pay the bills? Or is this a financial move for you? I want to make the move that will really give me the money that I feel is important to me in my life. So yes, just shifting the focus on to the things that really matter. That's what I'm talking about in the book, when you want examples. Andi Simon: When you work with people, have you had your own epiphany about how important this is, I won't ask you which of the five matters to you most. But, I have a hunch that when somebody does have that epiphany, do they then begin to act on it, or help them actually change so that if in fact they're looking for kudos or recognition. They can find ways to do that or if they're looking for fulfillment and purpose, they can redefine what the world is, and actually act on it. How do you actually take them from discovery to implementation or something? Julia Wolfendale: Yeah, that's a bit that really excites me as well. So I love that whole exploration with clients to help them think about things they've never thought about before. I'll bring to the fore the things that they are clear that matter to them now. But yeah, I don't like to leave people hanging. So I always kind of frame my sessions around how do we make that happen now, so very practical steps. So another part of the book is, can you do that? What's possible? So, I'll be asking them, so what can you do in the next two hours about that? What could you do in the next week, the next month, the next three months, the next six months? People need to feel that they can make those incremental steps towards the goals, whether it's a short term, or longer term, we think about changing the timescale as appropriate. So just breaking things down. That's another part of the five ways: the focus approach makes it small and achievable, but still aspirational enough that someone feels this is stretching them and challenging them and changing them but with the courage and the confidence to do that. Andi Simon: You know, I think you get so excited about what you're doing. It's really quite remarkable because people are in need of a pause and a rethink of where they're going, and to create a new story about what they are becoming because they live already what's in their minds today. Once you got that story, there you think that's reality, but it may not be right. So true. Julia Wolfendale: Yeah, so true. And for me, particularly, I can remember sitting in my business studies degree and I can remember being asked in my university class to sit and write down what I wanted to be and do. So I wrote down that I wanted to be a marketing director by 25. And I was, and then it's like, oh, now what? And then I had my first child, and I had a fantastic, fantastic job, as marketing director, and had my first child, and then everything sort of changed my priorities pane. And I can remember being stranded at Schiphol Airport in Holland, after having this problem with the plane, and we couldn't fly home after having traveled over to a sales conference with the company, and really just weeping that I was already going to have to leave my six month old daughter for even longer. And at that moment, I thought, something's really changed for me that if I'm going to do the work, if I'm going to try, if I'm going to have to be away from my child, I really want the work to be fulfilling. And it changed. So what excited me when I was 25 and 30 was the marketing, the campaigns, the brand building, all of that was fantastic. And then suddenly, my social conscience just really kicked in. I worked for 13 years in the public sector as a manager in a local authority, managing and organizing Children's Services, really deeply fulfilling as well. I think, to be able to ask these questions of yourself at different times in your career and different times in your life, because you'll want different things. And it's okay. And I think people think that you get one shot at choosing your career, whereas there are very many paths to get to feeling fulfilled and satisfied at work. Andi Simon: You know, so it's interesting, Julia, after my second book came out, Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, I took the "how do you do that" at the end, and I turned it into an online do it yourself video program where you can rethink your story, not just for your career, but for your life. And I love when people take it because sometimes you need a guide, or you or me, but more often, you just need the discipline to try and pause and know what to do to rethink your story. And as you start to walk me through your own story, you had to have an epiphany, something went off in your mind and it was a catalyst. I always say, people, if you want to change, have a crisis or create one because the habits take over. It's so much easier not to change. Even if you're not happy at the end of the day, and you're not happy in the morning, when I coach people, I say, well, if you're not happy in the morning, we have to change the story. Let's go to bed with a happy story that you're going to wake up with so your mind is working on the happy not on the you are, just what you believe. And it is so true. It isn't somebody's doing it to you, you're doing it to yourself. Julia Wolfendale: Yeah. And I think the thing to notice is that we all experience our jobs differently. We all experience our own situations differently. So just because other people in your team might think this is the best job ever for them, but if it's not working for you, it's really okay to just check in with yourself. And if it's not fitting in with your family or your other priorities in your life, it is totally okay to ask yourself, what am I really looking for. In the book we're talking about change points and boiling points. And the difference between those is the change points is when changes are coming about. So the organization is restructuring, to mean that change is kind of naturally occurring. Or it might be a change in yourself like you're approaching 40. We see a lot of people who are kind of reaching milestone birthdays and have a rethink, like you say, pause, restart, reevaluate. Or it might be that a pandemic has caused a lot of people to reevaluate their lives. So there's change points that occur anyway. And they either come about unexpectedly because of external circumstances, or because of the natural process of aging or life change. And then there's boiling points. And it's important to pay attention to both because the boiling points are kind of less easy to spot. But if we tune ourselves into them, we know we're approaching them. So it's when those work stresses are just compounding and then it might just take something happened at home as well, which is the trigger but actually work wasn't great anyway. But, then suddenly, work just fell short of being sustainable or too difficult to face every day because there's now other stuff that's not going well in another part of life. And so many people have additional caring responsibilities now that haven't been, with our aging population, etc. So, I just think, noticing what those boiling points are as well and having that courage to kind of check in and ask for help. You know to reach out and ask for a coach or read the book. So you know, the help is available, but to notice that you might be at a boiling point, and people might be thinking, I need to change things for me. It's about taking charge, it takes a lot of courage. Andi Simon: It does. And you know, as you think of your own story, I love the story, because you had a plan at the beginning. And you actually fulfilled it, you didn't have to stay in it. And your life took a turn because you had this wonderful child, and you realize there was more to what you were all about than just what you were doing at the time. That's okay. Now, you've taken another turn past that and I do think that the most interesting time is a startup time, because that's when you're in the explore stage. You're really not quite sure what this is. But I know what I'm doing isn't whatever that means, and life is a short journey. And when one of the biggest challenges, and I have a hunch, you're going to begin to see it as people are reaching that age of retirement, and they have no plan for the next phase. So the next phase in their journey, and it doesn't take them long to have an aha moment, which says, this is not what I expected. There's only so much golf I can play. And it's not the financial money that's motivating me, it's fulfillment, it's purpose, it's recognition, it's fellowship, it's belonging. It's all the other things. Now you have to remember, we're humans, and humans need all those other things. You know, Daniel Pink has a wonderful book called Drive. He talks about autonomy, mastery and purpose. And I do think that humans are herd animals. The secret to our success is our collective minds, sharing ideas. It's really understanding that what you think is not just about you, it's more than just about you. It's about the world that we live in as people and it's a great time. And your book is great. I mean, as I'm listening to it, I'm saying this is really terrific because it gives people a way of reflection, as well as purpose and intention to begin to move into the next part of their journey. And it's okay, you don't fail. On the next part, well, that's pretty cool. Are there any illustrative cases that you can share? Or are they all private cases? Julia Wolfendale: Confidentiality is with coaching people, so I always really preserve that. That's really important. But I suppose the book really has the tools that I use in coaching that are in the book. So you know, they've come about because they're tried and tested, and they are the things that help people shift their thinking. And I think that what I know really works well is giving people that space to reflect like you say, and think about what's possible, and really tap into their true potential. And I think focusing on people's possibilities is such a shift because their self-talk can be so negative around what we're not going to be able to do or why we're not as good as somebody else. So I just think through that, and I've learned that through the coaching that perhaps we do share a dim view of ourselves. And through coaching, it's always about discovering what someone's really capable of, and that's really exciting. And through the book, as well, the questions that I asked people to ask of themselves will be ways that they'll discover what they're really capable of. And, even sometimes, just giving people a chance to check in and go at their pace. And that's the beauty of it and reading the book is that it's just all kind of in you. It's in bite sized chunks. Andi Simon: Sometimes the mirror isn't showing you what is real. And you can have a hard time figuring out where am I? And the pandemic sort of accelerated a lot of those questions. And in some ways, everybody started to reflect on what's next. And coming out of the pandemic is as challenging as almost being in it because you can't go back to what was before, and you're not quite sure what's coming next. And uncertainty is one of those things that make people most uncomfortable, basically should be the way they are. Well, they aren't really and you're crafting them as you're living and you need to see the future if you're going to live today. This has been such fun. Are there one or two or three things that you don't want our listeners to forget? Because those are always important. Julia Wolfendale: Yeah, so I think that they get to choose, they get to choose how to think and they get to choose what to do with their thoughts. You can choose how to think. You can choose to cut through the noise and to focus on the things that matter to you. But that does require you to sit down and really think, Okay, what matters to me? And if you feel that you've been driven very much by what other people's expectations are, you might find that things feel a little empty for you at the moment for people to really reevaluate and have that kind of life. Through the book, there's always a big question that helps people reflect, followed by some action questions that really help people move forward with that insight. And I just think everybody's insights are true for them. And everybody's actions have to be right for them. So it's not about comparing with other people, everybody is on their own path. And sometimes it feels like you've strayed from the path. But hey, that can be part of the path to realize too. You're where you don't want to be right now. And that's a chance to come back a couple of steps or take a different turn completely. And you know, so not to be so harsh in judging how you are in your situation, and remind yourself that there is a way to rethink and think yourself out of a particular situation. But a lot of it will mean thinking well of yourself. And just rediscovering really what's available within you. Coaches always think about things particularly like this stance. As a coach, I'm very much a supportive, challenging coach. But I really believe in people's resourcefulness and reminding people of that. I think it's important to sort of tap into what's already there, and how it can be reused and then kind of used to point the way forwards for somebody. Andi Simon: And what's so exciting about what you're saying is that it's in your hands. I preach that as well. If you think that the problem is outside yourself, that's the problem, because you can't fix the outside of yourself. You only can fix how you see, feel and think about it. And if you can't craft a new story, you can't live a new story. When I work with people who move this way, as you're asking them hard questions, you have to come to the point where you're ready to move this way to begin to hear your own self, your heart beating. If you can focus on that heart, and begin to see what makes you remember, we decide with the heart, and the head comes in as the eyes, the heart, the gut, and then the head. So don't try and beat yourself out of it. You've got to feel yourself out of it. Julia Wolfendale: That's right. And those boiling points, notice that you're experiencing those even if people like you aren't. If that's your experience, notice it. Notice what you can do about it, rather than kind of sit with the problem too long. Because though, that's when we get really stuck and withdrawn and disengaged and disillusioned and disconnected. And it's so much harder then, isn't it, to kind of come back and offer up your best self to the situation. So just notice that it's good. Andi Simon: Often when people look at career changes, I say, Well, have you spent any time with anyone who's in that career? Often, somehow they're imagining what it would be like to work in that field. I say, Well go. Take a leave from your job and go test out your imagination and see if something is better than what you have. But you may not really know what it is and why it's better. And just give yourself a little room to grow. I'm an explorer by nature, my archetype. I'm an explorer. And I like discovery. I'm an anthropologist. I like to see things. All of the folks that you're working with need a little time to step back, pause and take a look at where they are and what comes next. And it's okay, and it may not work. I taught a course on entrepreneurship as a visiting professor at Washington University. And every one of the entrepreneurs said the same thing. I opened three businesses and I never failed. And I thought, interesting way to distance yourself from the outside. And never think of yourself as the problem. Where can they find your book? And can they buy your book on Amazon or someplace? Julia Wolfendale: Absolutely. Yeah. So the book Five Ways to Focus by Julia Wolfendale is on Amazon, in the US and the UK and worldwide. And also on my website ontheupconsulting.com. And there's more about the book in there and what we're referring to coaching and consulting services as well. Andi Simon: Okay, my friends, thank you for joining us today. Julia, thank you for joining us. It's been such fun. Your book is full of really important insights about how people can see, feel and think in new ways. So it's actually perfectly aligned with what we try to do and help people. For those of you who are watching, thanks for coming. It's always a pleasure. Remember that you decide with your heart and your eyes. So if you're stuck, or stalled, go explore. Spend a little time talking to people, maybe even Julia, maybe even me, but begin to think through, who am I? Where am I going? You don't have to do it alone. You often need an echo back or place to vent, someplace to see, feel and think about where you are in life at a moment. And when you get too closed in, you don't see anything that's going on. Your mind deletes anything that challenges that story you've got. It's time for a new story. But you don't need to do it all by yourself and create it. And remember, your brain loves the habits, the familiar. They love the story that you've got, and they love pleasure. But it's what you're doing, giving you pleasure. So it's a great time to pause, step back and rethink the five forces that will help you do that. So on that note, remember, I love your emails, info@Andisimon.com . Our website is Simonassociates.net and my books Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights are both on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and local bookstores. And they continue to sell now. On the Brink came out in 2016 and it's still going strong. So I thank you all for just being good fans. Thanks again. Have a great day!

Hear what good leaders should really be thinking about  Richard Medcalf describes himself as "what you get if you were to put a McKinsey consultant, a slightly unorthodox pastor and an entrepreneur into a blender.” In this podcast, you'll hear from an amazing thinker who has tackled strategic challenges in companies all over the world. In his new book, Making Time for Strategy, Richard speaks about the difficulties he has encountered working with high-powered leaders. Far too often, they find themselves focused on the wrong things---from how to respond to emails to how to get tasks completed on time. Instead, Richard preaches that a leader's mindset should be focused on the future, where the organization is going, and how everyone in that organization needs to be aligned around a core strategy to get it there. Listen and learn! Watch and listen to our conversation here Richard outlines four important ways you can refocus your time and energy to get where you want to go and find pleasure in the journey of getting there (TIME): Tactics Influence Mindset Environment About Richard Medcalf Richard founded xquadrant in 2017 with the mission of helping elite leaders reinvent their success formula and multiply their impact on their purpose, their people and their profit. He is bi-national (English and French), lives near Paris, and is also a licensed lay minister in the Anglican Church. You can connect with him on LinkedIn, Twitter and the xquadrant website. Ready to be a better leader? We recommend these for great learning: Blog: How To Be A Highly Effective Leader During Turbulent Times: The Five Things You Need To Know Podcast: Sara Canaday—Can You See The Gaps That Are Holding You Back From Being A Great Leader? Podcast: Kris Baird—Yes, You Can Teach A Leader How To Lead Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And my job is to help you get off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways, so that you can change. And if you come here and listen, you know that each time I bring you somebody new, it's because they've done something that really is transformative in some fashion. They're tackling a problem that my listeners, my audiences, my viewers are all tackling as well. And I'm so really honored today to have Richard Medcalf here from Paris. And it's a wonderful opportunity for us to share his new book, Making Time for Strategy, but also to share Richard. Let me give you a little bit of Richard's personality. He sends me an email, and he wants to be on my podcast. Why? "The first thing is because I'm a fan," he said. "I will thank you for the time and energy you invest in putting this out into the world." I have not had many of those emails, even though I have lots of emails from our listeners. But that was really a sweet opener. The second: he said he was sure that my audience, our audience, will find value in the topic, because many of our listeners will be running teams or businesses and hitting the ceiling of complexity, as daily operational demands suck all their time, leaving no space for strategic thinking. Now I'm a Blue Ocean Strategist. I work with lots and lots of companies who are seeking to create markets, not simply compete in them, which is Blue Ocean thinking. And they often get so tied up in making the plan, they forget they have to do something with it. And conversely, though, if they don't think about the plan, all their actions can take them nowhere, a very good point we're going to focus on. And Richard thinks I'm a good speaker, which we will see today, because I think he's a good speaker. He describes himself as what you get if you were to put a McKinsey consultant, a slightly unorthodox pastor, and an entrepreneur into a blender. So you have an idea of what we're going to talk about today. He's the founder of xquadrant, and a trusted adviser to exceptional CEOs and entrepreneurs and their leadership teams. I think you're going to enjoy him because he has advised all kinds of folks in all large and small companies. We're going to let you hear his story from his own perspective. It's much better than reading it. But he's binational. He's both English and French and lives near Paris, happily married and the proud father of two. He's also a licensed lay minister in the Anglican Church, and has an insatiable love for spicy food and the electric guitar. Is that enough for us to think of this mash up today? Richard Medcalf is joining me now. So happy to have you on today. Richard Medcalf: Yeah, thank you, Andi. Pleasure to be here. And thank you for the great intro. Andi Simon: Tell our listeners and our viewers who is Richard Medcalf, because your background is rich with experiences that have led you now into your own business. I liked what you discovered as you were wandering through. You have been very successful, whether it was Cisco or elsewhere, and who are you so that they can now understand why you're so focused on making time for strategy. Richard Medcalf: Yeah, thanks, Andi. Well, obviously strap yourself in if you've got a spare six hours, because talking about myself is my favorite topic. So here we go. I'll try to keep it brief. I better keep it brief. But so yeah, so I grew up in the UK. Started at Oxford University, went into strategy consulting, started at that point to move over to Paris. Five years later, I'm still here. I'm married to a French woman and have bilingual kids and everything else. So life doesn't always take you in ways that you expect. When I was at Bynum, in my strategy consulting company, I became the youngest ever partner. I'd been there about 10 years, and decided it was time to become a smaller fish in a bigger pond, rather than a big fish in a small pond. And Cisco was knocking at my door, and I thought it'd be interesting, you know, a huge tech company. Joining them, I did various roles. The last role was a small team set up by the CEO of Cisco and its chairman in order to kind of catalyze strategic relationships between Cisco and its key customers. I like to describe it as fulfilling rash commitments made by the chief exec when he was talking to big customers. And that was all great. And I enjoyed that. And it was quite prestigious in its own way and all the rest of it. But I got to a moment when I said, you know, Richard, what do you want as a legacy? What do you want to tell your great grandchildren in the future when you're 90 and they're on your knee, and they're asking you about your professional life, what you did in your job? And I realized that although I really enjoy and I still enjoy creating financial results for my clients, and back in the day, I was doing that a lot. I realized I didn't want to just talk about how I helped AT or whoever it was, increase the EBITDA margin by 1%. So I started to think, well, what do I really want? What are the real stories that I want to tell, you know, of my life and my professional life? And that's when I started to really deep dive into, what makes me different? What's my biggest gift? What's my passion, all that kind of stuff. And I started to realize that I went to work at this intersection of leadership, strategy and purpose, or to put it another way, helping people, great leaders. I suppose the way I now describe it, or they didn't describe it that way at the time, was, I want to help great leaders reinvent themselves to achieve breakthrough goals that change the world. So there's a few things in there, that personal transformation, and it's about making a positive impact in the world. So up to now, I've given you all the external facts that allowed me to build this business and my new business. You know, I work with amazing leaders, CEOs of billion dollar companies, some of the founders of scaleups, tech unicorns. One of my clients is an Olympic medalist and is now building a billion dollar business. Another of my clients was nominated as Entrepreneur of the Year by Ernst and Young. These are amazing people. But they're already impressive, but they're looking to connect their impact or make it make a big difference. But let me take you back to my childhood. With me, my sister was born mentally handicapped, very seriously mentally handicapped. She passed away just a couple of months ago. And she made a huge impact on me. She was an amazing character, very determined, very joyful. But we had very different paths. You know, like she stayed at home, she needed 24 hour care, a whole care team. She couldn't be left alone. Basically, she was so needy. Andi Simon: Yes, but it sounds like it had a big impact on who you were. Richard Medcalf: And yeah, I've realized that recently. Yeah, I realized that recently. I mean, I had this high flying career, went to Oxford. I went to a high tier strategy consulting company. I went to Cisco. I started my business. I move countries, all this stuff. And she didn't do any of that. And so I have this real sense that when we have the gifts, the talents, the resources, the opportunities, we kind of owe it to the world to make it a better place and to make an impact. And yet I see so often, we end up in our comfort zone, scared of doing things because we're a bit worried about what we might lose if we were to dare to do something different. Even when we're playing a big game, we can be busy, but in our comfort zone. So impact is a huge word for me because of that impact. Andi Simon: It's interesting, I read an article this morning about purpose. And don't worry about purpose unless you have an impact. Purpose-driven companies don't necessarily do anything, they just have a purpose, and actually I worked with one about a month ago. But your point about having impact is important for our listeners, because you are coming to that epiphany, that aha moment, where more of the same of what you're doing, even if it's financially lucrative, or even if it's for good companies, isn't personally purposeful. And that becomes a real interesting driver for you of what your calling is and why it's so important that you choose where you go, and you do it in a very intentional fashion, so that you have your own legacy and can answer to those kids and grandkids. You know why I've done what I've done in this life? Because it has made other lives better. So tell us from your company perspective, as well as from the book. You know, my segue is, how are you doing that? Richard Medcalf: How am I making that impact? Well, I think concretely, what I do, we're one-on-one with high-end leaders, CEOs or founders, entrepreneurs, sometimes C-suite leaders with their teams. I have a couple of programs that I run with perhaps more junior leaders. And I'm always helping them think about how they don't need to challenge my thinking. Where do I need to shift who I'm being as a leader in order to achieve things which right now are outside my zone as a reference? And, you know, what is that? What's really important? I think it's the fundamental question of what's really important in terms of what I want to accomplish, what's really important in terms of where I put my attention and my focus? What's really important in terms of where I build my skills? I think I described myself as being strategically lazy. I've always been a strategist. So my life, you know, it's why I got to the top, first at Oxford University, because I just knew where to put the focus, and what was important, what wasn't so important when I was studying. And I think it's strategic laziness. I just want to get a big result by focusing my efforts on the key areas. So I think I bring that to all these different parts of leadership, from ambition to goal setting to habit formation to dealing with people. That's kind of, I guess, the fundamental part. But what I find is that in all those conversations, whenever I sat down with a new leader, and we were looking at how you're going to multiply your impact, how you're going to, really just in the exponential, how you're going to break through, the first conversation we would always have, and he was like, "Yeah, I'd love to do that Richard. But right now, to be honest, I'm just so overloaded. I've got so much on my plate. You know, where do I go? Where do I go from here? And how do I even make time for all this exciting stuff?" I know, it's possible for me because that really was the seed of the book that I've now written. Andi Simon: But it's an interesting reflection. I am an anthropologist, and you're an observer. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about you meeting with your clients and listening to their stories, because we're story creators. And the story was a catalyst to change your own story in your mind. And I often preach that because telling stories isn't incidental, it doesn't stay outside of the other person. And as you're talking and sharing your story, our listeners' stories are also changing. But what's important is, as you're coaching your clients and they're sharing their sense of pain, success has now turned into, "I no longer have a vision, I no longer can see where we're going. I'm not even quite sure how it's all aligned with a strategy." You had an epiphany, a moment, which said, Wow, there's something here beyond simply helping them personally transform it that could be instrumental for them to get back to being the big leaders who are supposed to be visionaries. And they're not supposed to be worried about managing the tactical details. They're supposed to be leading people into some particular direction. So once you had this epiphany, then the book came out of it. Richard Medcalf: The first thing I want to just clarify is, for me, strategy is really a shorthand for strategic activity. So as a top leader, we might lead literally focusing on corporate strategy. But no matter where we are in the organization, we always need to focus on what is the most strategic, what's going to move the needle, what's going to have the biggest leverage. And that's really, when I talk about strategy, I mean that. So for somebody, that literally is: "I need to think about the vision and strategy for my company." But then I need to just step back and think about how am I going to maximize the impact for my business unit, or my department or my team or myself? So, yes, I think the book came out not necessarily immediately, but I started to go, "I've got stories here." I realized that a lot of people think that what they need is a time management book, a productivity tip that you think about how to maximize, filter their emails better or something. What I realized was that no, the breakthorughs my clients had were in these deep conversations. They weren't just in the area of tactics, which can be important, but it's not everything. So with the book, I wanted to really bring, if you like a transformation perspective, to this question of how do I free myself up for this? So because I realized that was what my clients were dealing with, they knew that theory about, you know, working on the important things, even if they're not urgent, and this kind of stuff, they knew all that. But what was really getting in their way. And when I realized this, I came to a few key areas I wanted to share. I tested it with those leaders. I tested it with a couple of group programs that I ran with multiple leaders from different companies in and then I realized, yeah, there's a book in this. It's actually quite easy to write because they've got the experience. Andi Simon: Pause for a second, Richard, because what you're saying is, while they didn't need time management, the title of your book is Making Time for Strategy. And so I just want to make sure that the listener understands that it isn't simply reorganizing your to-do list or your calendar for the day, it's a different way of thinking about what is important, and you're seeing, also it's not just for the senior leadership teams. This should be on every person in that organization's thinking about what it is that matters. So I can also not do things that are off-strategy and are done the way we've always done it, but don't need to be done anymore. Am I hearing you correctly? Richard Medcalf: Yeah, that's right. I mean, the way I see it, we live in a world of infinity. There is infinite stuff available to us for the first time ever. We've got infinite messages in our inbox, IM messaging platforms, infinite social media opportunities to converse and connect with people, infinite content to consume, to stream, to read, to whatever. It's just like, the more we look at, the more recommendations we get, and we have more to look at. So it's never ending. And so there's so many opportunities for every leader. It's infinity. And so we can't beat infinity with productivity. Most people, they hit the accelerator, they try to go faster and faster. And they find within hours in the day, they've hit the ceiling of complexity, as it can be called. Where do we go from here? And what I found is, we need to level up. We need to change gear, we can't change gear when one foot's on the accelerator. We have to start to invest our time, rather than investing more in your business and you're making like zero profit. You've got to invest in the future. You can't make things better, probably you're going to have your costs go up over time and you're going to get a business. Most leaders are running their life like that business. They're using their time. Every day is going and they've not got any margin available to invest in the breakthrough activities to invest in the future. And so they're just running along on a hamster wheel. Andi Simon: So I'm curious, what did you advise in your book Making Time for Strategy to help them get off that hamster wheel, reassess, and now invest in time? And I love your comments. You can't touch infinity with productivity. And I have a hunch you have a bunch of things that I want to make sure that we have time to discuss with our listeners because I think there's something of great value for them. And I think your discovery is very powerful. Please share. Richard Medcalf: So in the book, I talked quite a bit to start with about what you want to put your time on. It's really important. So I like to say, you can't free yourself up from things, you've got to free yourself up for something. What if you've actually got a spare minute or spare hour? What do you want to put your time on? What's going to make a breakthrough? So I spend a bit of time talking about that. And for me, people get clear on that. But in terms of how much we actually get into that freeing ourselves up, there's four strategies to use. And they actually spell the word TIME, which I was very happy about when I noticed that. So there's TACTICS. We do need a plan to get back into profitability. If you'd like more time, we do need a plan to go get rid of things which are not serving us and to stay at that level. So there is a tactical issue. The issue is that most people have over rotated on tactics, and they haven't thought about the other parts. But if we're actually finding diaries too full, we need to deal tactically with it. Then I is for INFLUENCE. I like to say, if you want to go on a diet or exercise, the people that are going to get in the way are your own family. Other people are going to want the chocolate cake under your nose, because they're used to dealing with you in a certain way. And when you're trying to change who you are and what you focus on, it impacts them. So in a business situation, you can make your plan or tactical plan for what you want to do and meetings you don't want to be in anymore and projects you don't want to do anymore. But you've got to sell that internally, but tell your boss that "I don't want to be in that. It's not helpful for me to be in that meeting anymore." But you've got a colleague saying, "I don't want this stuff coming from your department into my department because it's not what we should be focusing on." You've got to sell it to your team. "I need you to deal with things in a different way and stop involving me in the details." So influence is a really key part. That's what I call the Leadership Challenge. How are we actually leading other people so that we can take that higher ground? Then M is for MINDSET. Mindset is really important. That defines the bounds of what is necessary, possible, desirable in our lives. If we don't, if we don't have a good mindset, a broad enough mindset, well, we believe that we haven't got any choices in this matter. So I'll give you an example of one of my clients. I was helping him drive some transformational projects for a large company. He was in the C-suite of a several-billion-dollar company. And he was driving through internal transformation projects. I was helping him with that as he was onboarding into the C-suite. One day he comes to me and says, "Richard, I need some tips. I'm spending too much time on my email." So I joke and say, "Well, you pay me too much money if you want me to go and go through those, but tell me more." He explains, "Well, you know, I don't want to be the guy who's untrustworthy, unreliable or not a team player, who people are waiting on to reply to them, that you're stuck on projects." Andi Simon: So it's not alone. And it's a common recurring theme. My clients say, "I have to manage my email." But what did you tell him? Richard Medcalf: So he'll say, "Yeah, so that's why I have to regularly go into my inbox and help people." So I was like, "Okay, I can't help you." "You can't help me?" "Well, whatever I tell you about spending more time on these important projects, you're not going to do it because you want to be a reliable, trustworthy team player. And if I tell you not to do that, you're not going to do it. It's against your values. And I totally understand." "So, okay, well, what do I do?" "Tell me about your CEO. What does he want us to do?" "Oh, these transformational projects are going to make a big difference." "Okay. Where is your board? That, you know, makes a big impact on the bottom line." "They really want these big projects to happen." "Okay, what about your customers?" "If they were to know about it, they'd really want this internal transformation because it's going to free up the team to work on their projects." "Okay. What about the team itself?" "Oh, yeah. Well, they're desperate for more modern work experience." "Okay, so you're telling me that all these people want you to focus on these transformational projects?" "Yeah, that's right." "Okay. Well, I put it to you that that's what you're paid the big bucks for, and that when you're in your inbox, you're doing the easy stuff. You're actually being unreliable, untrustworthy, and not a team player. When you're doing the big stuff, then you're being the reliable trustworthy team player that you've been." Andi Simon: He really had to change his mindset, didn't he? Richard Medcalf: So in that one conversation, he got it and it was the aha moment. He didn't need any other tips from me because he had shifted his identity in the way he saw things. And so for all of us, we have places in our mind which are holding us back. And that's the mindset challenge. And actually, before that, let me pause. You don't have to do these in order, actually, in the book, and you can do it even before buying the book. I have an assessment that allows you to actually identify each of these areas. What's your score? What's your total score? What's your score on each category? And therefore, where's your weak spot? Where should you focus first? Because perhaps there's no point doing the tactics if your mindset is getting in the way. Or, you know, if actually you've got the plan, but you haven't got enough influence, then you need to start there. So you can read the book, but not only... Andi Simon: I'm sure you heard a little pause in our conversation. Richard in Paris froze for a moment. So we're going to pick up the conversation here, because we're down to the E. And the E is an important part of TIME. If in case you haven't noticed, it ends it but it also creates a setting for which everything else is taking place. Richard, please share with us what E stands for. Richard Medcalf: The final part of the type acronym is E for ENVIRONMENT. Environment is important because I wanted this to be a book for leaders. And as a leader, we have a responsibility to make time for our own strategy, our own focus, but also we need to create an environment where our team can thrive, where our team can focus on what's important as well. And that's our whole organization. So many organizations, they get caught up in busy work with too many priorities, mindlessly doing what the boss said, without thinking about "Why all this stuff?" And the question for the environment challenge is, how do I scale this into my team? How do I actually create a culture where, when I have something to delegate, my team is able to receive it because they've got TIME. Or if I've got a new project that I wanted to deliver because I've been thinking strategically, that we have capacity in the organization to take it on. And so for me, that's a really important part. We often focus on our own personal productivity. But in the book, I wanted to focus more on how do I go about changing the culture of my team in my organization, on this topic as well. Andi Simon: Do you have a client situation you can describe that might illustrate these four points and make them come alive a little bit? I can see them because I'm working with them. I hope my audience can as well. Anything you might share? Richard Medcalf: Yeah, so often I find that the breakthrough is on an individual basis for one of these points. So you don't necessarily need them all at the same time to get your breakthrough. That's why I said at the start of the book, you can take an assessment to find out which area you should focus on first. But I'll give you some examples. I've talked about mindset already, the fact that it's one conversation. Let's say around influence, it's quite a key one. Now, often one thing about influence is around not setting the boundaries with people. So often what happens is, we take on things from people and we haven't actually created an agreement with them. So yeah, I've had several clients who've realized, as we've talked about influence, that actually they have not had a real conversation with their own team about what do I expect from you in our relationship? When should you bring a problem to me? And how would you know where you need my support? And how do I want you to bring it to me? So many times, team members seem like leaders and feel they're being Sherlock Holmes, trying to diagnose the problems that their team brings to them because their team just says, "Hey, can we talk about x. I've got a problem with x." So in the book, for example, it's been one of the tactics which works really well, is the thing called SCARS. It's a five step acronym. It's a way we can bring a subject to a manager in a way that the manager can then really deal with. So, Situation: what are we talking about here? Context: what's the background I need to know? Analysis: what have I actually done to examine the different options available? Recommendation: what's the one or two options that you'd want to put forward on the table at this point that's memorable, and then Stakeholders is the last one, which is, don't use me as your manager to have to pull rank. Have you spoken to the other people who might be affected by this decision? Do they agree? So often, many team members come to us wanting us to make a decision so that they can then pull rank and say, "The boss said we're doing it this way." So the Stakeholders are actually key parts of SCARS. The S is quite important to make sure that they're actually managing the stakeholder environment, not just putting that back on it. The point is, when you've got this, when you've got those points, your team starts to come to you with what I call fully formed requests. But they actually know, "Hey, boss, I want to talk to you about the new, unknown Austrian office that we want to open. There are three options, ABC, these are the pros and cons." That's the analysis. The recommendation is: given all that, I think we should go for the city center office, because ABC, if that's too expensive for our budget, I'd recommend we go for an office by the airport, because of X Y, Z. And we explain that and then stakeholders: by the way, I've talked to the country manager, and he is happy with any of those options. And we've got something we can work with. Andi Simon: I am fascinated by your insights into how to change people so that they can be more effective, thinking beyond the immediate tactical thing, and how do I get this done. They can do it in a way which shifts their minds, their mindset, so they can see a bigger picture and a better way, changing that culture and culture. As an anthropologist, cultural change is one of the most challenging things, but one person at a time is extremely effective. We're getting to the point where we need to wrap up, as much as I would love to keep going on. But you know, as you said, you could talk all day. I have no doubt that you have great wisdom to share. Share with us two or three things you don't want our listeners to forget. And then we'll talk about where they can reach you and how they can get the book.  Richard Medcalf: Sure. So I think the first thing to realize is that the number one key performance indicator governing your future success as a leader is strategic time. I view investing in the future to make the future better. It's the difference between leaders who plateau and stagnate and find it hard to progress, and leaders where every year seems to bring new opportunities. It's that investing in the future that's so important and many leaders said they're running on empty. They hardly have any time in the week to work on those game changing projects, so it really matters. Second thing I want you to remember is that it's not just a productivity challenge.All these four areas: tactics, environment, mindset, and environment are really important. Work on the one that's most important for you. Go and take the test, if you want, on my website; it will help you. But, find out which one is important and really focus on that. Deal with the limiting factor and everything else will become a lot easier. And thirdly, always get really clear on what that breakthrough project would be. If you've got three minutes, just put a timer on your phone and brainstorm. Just write down questions. If I could answer some questions, if I had time to think and time to work, what would those powerful questions be? That would be a game changer for me. So you might write down, How can I get the best out of so-and-so on my team? How is artificial intelligence going to change my industry or change my workflows in the next three years? You know, how can I be more influential with a CEO? What new networks? Do I need to become part of it? Whatever it is, start to brainstorm interesting questions. When you do that, I guarantee after three or four minutes of writing ideas down, you'll suddenly go, Oh, there is a new level available to me. There is a new level that I could be involved with if I wasn't so stuck in the day-to-day. Andi Simon: Richard, I love our conversation. I have all kinds of thoughts, but where can they reach you and get your book? Richard Medcalf: So the book is available on Amazon. It's called Making Time for Strategy: How to be Less Busy and More Successful. And if you can also go to makingtimeforstrategy.com. Find out details about the book there. If you're interested, I put some resources specifically for listeners of the podcast at my company website, which is xquadrant.com/onthebrink. And there'll be a link to the assessment I mentioned, a link to the book, and a few other resources as well. That could be the best place to start. Andi Simon: Good, good. And we'll certainly have it up here. And we'll be promoting it as well. I want to make sure the listener understands a couple of things that I was struck by in Richard's conversation. Remember that humans are really futurists. And the only way you can live today is to see where we're going tomorrow, what's the future and the future you don't really know so you create and craft an illusion story about it. And now the interesting part for you, as a CEO or member of a C-suite or a manager in your organization, is to help the organization see where it's going, for its customers, its stakeholders, its board, whoever else you're really concerned about. But don't do it by just simply looking at that email list that comes in, or the immediacy of something you need to change. And humans hate change since that amygdala of yours will hijack the new, which is why I bring people like Richard here to talk to you because your brain hates him already. And we are going to love what it can teach you about time and how to invest in it. Because infinity can only be really captured and used well with not productivity, but with reframing it. The changes are here. Now if you haven't read Bernard Marr's book Future Skills, the skills for looking at data, AI, all types of things that are really right in front of us, please don't wait. But I do think making time for strategy can help you prepare yourself emotionally as well as intelligently for intentional transformation. All the time. Somebody once said the future is all around us. It's just not widely distributed. And I love that. I also know that the future is really here. It's today. And now we have to go push our way out. Richard, thank you for joining me today. It's been a pleasure. Now for all of our listeners, thank you for your ideas. Send your emails to info@Andisimon.com and our website is www.simonassociates.net where we talk about all the stuff we have for you there to help you see, feel and think in new ways. My two books are both on Amazon: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. I'm here to help you see, feel and think in new ways. That's what I love to do. My third book coming out in September 2023 is called Women Mean Business. You can't quite get it yet, but I promise to keep you as you subscribe to our podcast in the loop and let you know when it's available. It's going to be a cool book with 101 women telling you their wisdom so that you can soar. On that note, I'm going to say goodbye. Have a wonderful day Richard. Enjoy Paris.

Hear how to really hear what people are saying in meetings Imogene Drummond is a woman whose story I love to share. She is bold and courageous about things she wants to do or learn more about. Today's topic is how her new program, ACQUITS, grew out of her interest in helping people communicate better, especially in the virtual environments so many of us find ourselves in these days. Imogene's professional life evolved from her training in psychology to her very successful career as an artist, to filmmaking, and now to working with people to develop their online communication skills. This is so timely. Do enjoy. Watch and listen to our conversation here ACQUITS stands for the 10 essential principles for successful meetings This process is based on how we must: listen before we speak hear what others are saying adapt our thinking to understand what the speaker intended, not what we think we heard do all this without the body and facial cues we use during in-person conversations Meet Imogene Drummond Imogene Drummond is an artist, filmmaker and educator. She has an MSW from Catholic University, was a family therapist in the late 1970s, is the founder and principal of Divine Sparks Media, and is currently Director of Social Media at the Deeptime Network. She studied at MICA's Mt. Royal School of Art and her work has been shown in solo and group exhibitions from New York to Australia. Her paintings are in private, corporate and hotel collections, as well as the National Museum of Women in the Arts in Washington, D.C. Her new program, ACQUITS, came from observing how people behave while engaged in zoom calls, and focuses on teaching people how to change their communication strategies to engage better and benefit more fully from online conversations. You can connect with Imogene on LinkedIn, her website, or by email: imogene@imogenedrummond.com. Want to communicate better? Here's a great place to start: Podcast: Monique Russell—To Lead With Clarity, You First Must Communicate Confidently Podcast: Lisa Perrine—Clever, Creative Ways To Enhance And Amplify Workplace Communications Podcast: Nadia Bilchik—How To Master Communication In A Virtual World Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. And my job is to get you off the brink. So I go looking for people who can help you see, feel and think in new ways, opening your minds to solutions to problems you may be working with or dealing with, but aren't quite sure how to solve now, particularly as we emerge from these years of pandemic. You never want to waste a crisis, and it's a great time for you to learn some new techniques. And today I've brought to us Imogene Drummond. Imogene is a wonderful woman. I'm going to tell you about her. But she also has a program you're going to be very interested in. It's called ACQUITS, and it's a toolkit for facilitating conscious and effective communication for online groups. Now that is a really interesting topic. You know as well as I do that we are spending so much of our time online. And for women in particular, it isn't giving us more opportunity to participate. But the dynamics are much more obvious when you're watching men and women, different genders and age groups, on the screen and how we're competing for time and space. And what actually happens with communication, people often saying, "You didn't hear me. I may have said something, you may have thought what you heard, but may not have been what I meant." And so communication is very hard. Let me tell you about Imogene. Imogene is an internationally-collected painter, award-winning filmmaker, writer, artist, educator and foremost psychotherapist. You're going to say, "How interesting, where did ACQUITS come from?" ACQUITS is a toolkit for facilitating this effective communication. The acronym refers to the lesser-known definition of the word acquits, meaning how one conducts oneself. Imogene's educational course for middle school students combines creativity, self-worth and the universe. That is pretty cool, particularly when we learn that we are billions of years old. And who knows how we ever emerged from a few molecules of this, mixed with the fuel of that? Options for The Future is the closing piece in a thought-provoking anthology, The Rule of Mars, which was endorsed by Pulitzer Prize-winning scientist and author Jared Diamond. Now, if you haven't read Jared Diamond's work, it's well worth reading. And I have all his books and just love him. Due to her painting expeditions around the world, Imogene was invited to join the Society of Woman Geographers, whose membership includes explorers of ideas as well as geography, among them, Eleanor Roosevelt and Amelia Earhart and Jane Goodall. I must tell you that when you discovered who I was, I was an explorer. Now I've done a recent self-assessment, and I'm also a philosopher. And I guess that's why you and I have eclectic interests that come together around helping people see, feel and think in new ways. Thank you for joining me tonight. Imogene Drummond: Exactly. Thank you, Andi. And thank you for the opportunity to be on this wonderful podcast. It's great that you create these interesting podcasts that support women's amazing stories and important work. So I'm honored to be here today. Andi Simon: Please tell our viewers, who's Imogene? What's your journey? How did you get here? Where are you? Imogene Drummond: Well, speaking of where we came from, the last 7 billion years, my journey has been really a series of evolutions. And I started out as a psychotherapist, and then I decided I really needed to do something for me. And so I became an artist. And I was painting and going on these trips, expeditions. And then I created a script with paper cutouts. So it became an illustrated manuscript. That was really a new origin story that I thought would help children and help the world. And then I decided I needed to do more with it. And I made it into a film. And I had never made a film and I decided, Okay, now, really, it's a feel-good film. It's gotten a nice award. But I mean, it needs to help people to be more practical and functional. So I made it into a curriculum. And it became a curriculum at a middle school, a visionary school in Newburgh. So it's just surprising because when I started to go on this journey, I just thought, Well, who knows what will happen? Maybe I'll start painting pastel tulips? I don't know. So I'm very pleased that I just kept being creative. And I kept exploring new ways. Andi Simon: You know, there's a wonderful book, The Secret to Our Success. And in the book, Joseph Henrich talks about his own realization that human evolution has come about because of our shared collective brain. And as I'm listening to you, I think our listeners would love to know, did you go on this journey alone? Or were you picking ideas up from people? How did you begin to evolve? Personally, you didn't have many careers, you had sort of one person moving through different stages here. How does that happen? Imogene Drummond: Very interesting question. No one has ever asked me that end. You know, it felt lonely at times. But it's true, I have had a group of mostly women. I did, my father was like a guide. So he was very helpful. But especially this group of Society of Woman Geographers there, the woman who invited me was herself an artist. I just kept finding people who were supportive, and kind of just finding them. Then I ended up with this group, the Deeptime Network, that I'm on the advisory board of, which is why I made the ACQUITS toolkit. Oh, it's interesting. It has not been alone. And I think that's something in our culture, where we're influenced to think about me, me, me. And really, we need to shift and think about we, so that's one of the ideas behind the ACQUITS toolkit. Andi Simon: So I think that the ACQUITS came about because you saw some unmet needs. You're very much a blue ocean thinker. It isn't about doing more of the same, a little bit better. It's really about how do I solve a problem, create a new market, find solutions that may be right beneath us, but could be done in a different kind of fashion. Tell us a little bit about ACQUITS and then you can put up your screen so we can talk about the elements of it. Imogene Drummond: Well, just to give you some background, I've been working with this fascinating cutting edge nonprofit, the Deeptime Network, which provides educational courses to connect us to the cosmos; again, exactly what you're talking about. It talks about this evolution of humans, and the whole cosmos through this. They were gearing up to shift from having three-month courses to nine-month courses, somewhat early in the pandemic. And I had been on a number of zooms with diverse situations and groups. And there were a number of things that were needed that were problematic in each experience. And the main noticeable one was that, oftentimes, somebody would speak too long. And so I had said to the co-founder and president Jennifer Morgan of the Deeptime Network that some communication guidelines would be helpful to people. And she said, great idea, Imogene, you do it. Andi Simon: I have a hunch that it wasn't a bad idea, anyhow. Imogene Drummond: Well, I thought, "You know what, I've been thinking about this," which is why I suggested it. And so I thought, "Okay, I'll run with it." And that is exactly why I developed it. It is to help people be more conscious in communicating in groups online. The techniques are also good for lots of situations, including in-person. But, I noticed that it's difficult to get feedback when you're speaking in a group on zoom because everybody else is muted. And so you're not hearing things that you might hear if you're in a boardroom or a classroom, where people might be drumming their fingernails or rattling their coffee cups or coughing, or being wrapped with the tension. And also with the monitor, you're just looking at this inanimate technological thing, versus people's real faces. So you don't get the feedback online that you do in real life. So I think there are many reasons why there were problems on zoom that aren't in real situations. Andi Simon: You know, in some ways, I am wondering two things. One of which is, many years ago, I did a television series for CBS Sunrise Semesters when people got up at six in the morning to get college credit; it was a long time ago. But I remember talking into the camera with no audience. And sometimes when you're doing a zoom workshop or something, people don't turn on their cameras. And you're talking as if you're doing a television show with no audience. And you have to imagine, and you require a lot of creative emotions. We, as you and I are talking, respond to each other listening or not, based on my face and how I'm responding. And then you can take it to the next stage, because you're trying to figure out, Am I making my point? Or am I not? So it was interesting, as I went back in time to remember the feeling. Somebody once said to me, as I was recording, You're really good, but you should smile. I went, Ah. He said, When you smile, the thing is that we learn. But this is very important, because I don't think zoom calls, webs, are going to go away. In fact, I hope they don't, because it gives us a multiplier, both of our time and our topics and so forth. But, I'm also not sure that interpersonal relationships aren't truncated by the very same things that happen in a virtual one, except we don't pay attention to the same way. And I'll segue into you talking about your programming in a second because I've been starting to go back and do live workshops, or live public speaking, keynotes. And I forgot the high that I get from being in an in-person experience. Now, the audience, when I've done it remotely, gives me great reviews. And, they too, though, are coming back. Because people are herd animals, we like each other. And we must be better when we watch each other. And we can celebrate what others are doing. Put up your screen, and let's take a look at what the elements of ACQUITS are all about and how to apply them because I have a hunch our listeners or watchers are going to want to do it. And for those listening, I promise you, Imogene will talk you through what is here so you can understand why it's so important for the techniques that she teaches and that you can learn. Imogene Drummond: Okay, thank you, Andi. So, this is a slide from my PowerPoint presentation with all of the techniques together. And through the PowerPoint presentation that I give about the ACQUITS toolkit, we go into each one in more detail. So this is a summary. And the first one is the A is for agree, and everybody in the course or on the zoom call agrees to these principles or these techniques. So you have to get everyone to buy in first. And also I think it's interesting because I wrote up these techniques and then it was like, Oh, if we make it into an anagram, it becomes ACQUITS. And there's two definitions for the word acquit. One is the one we're familiar with, where you get off, but the other one is about how you conduct yourself. So this ACQUITS refers to how one conducts oneself. So the first actual technique is affirm, that we affirm others. The next one is C for contribute. We contribute to the conversation. And that means you don't add something that's not on topic. You stay on topic and you contribute something that is helpful to other people. The next is the Q. Ask a question, ask people what they mean or to explain better or more clearly, or in more depth. The U refers to unite. You want to have a conversation where people are getting feeling connected versus disconnected. So we want to keep this attitude of uniting people. The I is for include. Let's make comments that include people; oftentimes there's a quiet or a couple of quiet people in the group. So it's important to remember to include them. The T is for "think gratitude," is so important, really goes a long way to facilitating connections and good communication. So the next three really refer to the idea of helping people speak more succinctly and clearly. So Share and Stop. The S means stop, give one idea, not three. Share your one idea, and then stop and breathe, and let other people respond to it. The next S is for self-regulation, which is to think ahead of time. You know, editing is vital for good writing, right? So, to be a good speaker, we need to edit our thoughts. So if we think that it's important to edit our thoughts first, before we speak, then we can do that better. And self-regulate is about editing ourselves. And also speaking for two minutes, not more than two minutes; a lot can happen in two minutes. And to set parameters as well, that you should try to express your idea in less than two minutes. So that's the very basic techniques, really. Andi Simon: But when you articulate them, we become aware of them. And if we're not aware of them, we won't know whether we are self-regulating, or contributing or dominating. We really don't know how to do better at sharing ideas, and building, affirming each other's position. It's interesting, because the nature of the online experiences is that I have to manage my leadership academy participants, for example, so everyone has time to talk. And if I don't, some of them will fall asleep. But I mean, there's an ease with which you go on and off the screen. When we were in person, I had to make sure everyone had an opportunity to talk as well. And the whole nature of talking in a group, it was almost a training session without calling it such. And because I was the orchestrator, as if this was a symphony, and each person was playing a different instrument. But for the whole to really sound like great music, we all had to come together over the same piece of music. What are we here for? The metaphor was interesting because nobody had to duplicate each other. You know, the violins didn't have to play the cello part. And the oboe couldn't play the flute. But you can see them visualize, because that's how we learned what I was trying to achieve on the screen. It's not that different, and a good presenter knows how to orchestrate it in a way that equips everybody for coming up with ideas, almost preparing them before they come with, You're going to contribute how and how are you going to regulate yourself? So in middle school, what do you do to teach kids?  Imogene Drummond: Well, what I do in middle school is a whole different creativity program that helps to facilitate their own creativity. I don't teach art. And that program combines creativity, the cosmos. Again, I'm connecting them to the cosmos and self-worth. So that's what I'm affirming continually, that in terms of what you just said, they are all unique. There's no two alike, even if they're twins. And each work is unique. So every time, they're really creating intentional artwork, to express themselves. So every time they do that, I consider it a success, because they have intended to express themselves. And, I just wanted to mention that with the ACQUITSS online, I don't give the whole presentation myself because it's about the process. The whole toolkit is about processes. And so what I do is I involve three or four other people from the program, and we divide up the text and practice it. And then we share different people, give different parts of the toolkit, the presentation as I go along. And it's been really terrific. It's really working well and engaging people because it's very content heavy. And in the program at the Deeptime Network, one presentation included a Sikh from India, a Canadian with a French accent, an Irish American with a beautiful lilting voice, and me. Andi Simon: And all of those things added quality and color. I misrepresented you. This isn't being done in the middle schools. Tell us where the program is? I didn't mean to misrepresent it. Imogene Drummond: The ACQUITS is really for communication to help people be more conscious online. And so I really think educational programs are perfect for it. I'm using it in the Deeptime Network for a nine-month program. It's now part of their curriculum. It's the second week of the whole course. So that people set the ground rules, basically, because it's really about delineating expected behavior. And I think it really helped optimize what they're doing on the network in these courses. They're phenomenal courses anyway. They're fascinating. There's a wonderful community emerging out of it. And the ACQUITS, it's just made it easier to help people communicate well and be heard. And, for example, it's interesting, Andi, 10% of the participants returned to take this nine-month course a second time. Andi Simon: Wow, that's great. Isn't that remarkable! Imogene Drummond: And I think that's a testament to what the course is, and to that, Steve Martin, the facilitator, is phenomenal. But I think the ACQUITS kind of smooths it, it greases the wheels and facilitates it. And I was really excited when one time, Steve Martin, the facilitator of the course, said that ACQUITS is a good model to improve our relationship with the environment. I would have never thought of that. Yes, brilliant idea. How about if we change our relationship to the environment? And here's a set of techniques we could use as guidelines, because they are really just guidelines. Andi Simon: Yeah. But you know, there's a structure to relating what you've created. Whether you're affirming it or you're self-regulating it or you're contributing,it is a structure to relationships. Well, I'm not sure, as a young person growing up, you really appreciate the possibilities of a structure to those relationships as you're trying to build friendships and play on sports teams. And, you know, everyone is theoretically a guide, but often they don't have anything to guide you with. So this is really powerful. You know, it's interesting because I have a hunch you're leading this somewhere. What comes next for you? Imogene Drummond: Well, actually, Andi, that's why I called you because I want to get it out into the world. More people in the Deeptime Network, they're using it on their own. But I want to give presentations about it in courses or places that have online meetings on a repeat repetitive basis because then you can use it. It's not like it's not for some. Oftentimes I give a presentation, that's just a one-time presentation about my artwork or something. This is not that; this is about setting the ground rules for a course, like you were saying: the structure of the relationships. So they use it in the Deeptime Network now every year for their nine-month leadership course. And I would like it to be used elsewhere, other educational courses, or any kind of group where people meet online for more than one for multiple sessions. Andi Simon: You know, I hope our listeners and our viewers consider ACQUITS for themselves in their organizations, or to refer you to others, because I know no other programs like this. I think that the time couldn't be more ripe because as we are rebuilding hybrid relationships, they are trying to figure out, How do I manage other people? How do I build a global business, in a hybrid fashion with the tools that are needed? How do we keep our humanity when we don't see each other on a daily basis? You're shaking your head, right? Imogene Drummond: Yes, yes, absolutely. Well said, absolutely. Andi Simon: And when you think about it, we don't realize what we give up when we go hybrid, or what we have to do when we come in. It's very complicated. I can't tell you how many of our clients have people coming in and sitting on their computers doing zoom calls with the people who haven't come in, wondering, Why they drive in for an hour? I have one prospective client who was upset because they were having a flywheel of hires who are leaving because there was no community to come into. And so there's a moment where this is extremely needed. Imogene, as we think about wrapping up, two or three things you want the listener not to forget, other than they have to call Imogene. As you're thinking through your own program here, you know, what is it that a listener should remember? Imogene Drummond: Well, I think it's important that we start thinking in terms of shifting from me to we. We have to be more community-minded and not always me first, me first trumpeting my own work. And also, I think listening is important, but I think we're taught to listen because, how often have we heard, especially as children, our parents or teachers say, Listen, listen to me, listen to this. But I think we haven't really been taught to speak clearly and succinctly in group settings. So I think it's important to learn to do that, and affirming people asking questions, expressing gratitude. All these are easy, but important things to do that really help and they help build bonds with connections with people. Andi Simon: You know, Imogene said something that I want to emphasize, if you haven't read Judith Glaser's work on creating we, or conversational intelligence. Judith passed away about three years ago, maybe two years ago now. And her work in neuroscience, she was an observational and organizational anthropologist, and she realized that what we were learning from the neurosciences is that the words we say create the worlds we live in. Others have said similar things, but to use the word AI, your amygdala immediately protects the listener from the imposition of your thoughts on theirs. And the amygdala starts to create cortisol. And it flees it, it fears it, it's unfamiliar to it; anything that is unclear to it, it rejects. But when you say we, the oxytocin in your brain begins to flow, and you bond with the person who wants to build trust, and it creates a solution. I know how you said we without that context, so I'll add the context to it. Because I think that ACQUITS is about a we world where it isn't about me, or I, but it's about co-creating meaning. Now remember, humans are meaning-makers. We evolved because we can create meaning on things, as the virtual is an interesting catalytic moment for how to create new meaning about what people are saying, what they're doing, and how to behave to do what to achieve what is. And I do think ACQUITS is very timely. And for those of you listening, I think you're going to want to follow up with Imogene to find out how to become more into acquitting each other for the way we communicate. Imogene, where can they reach you? And how can they find out more about you? Imogene Drummond: Well, my website is immogenedrummond.com. Andi Simon: Good, we'll have all that information for you on the video and on the blog around the audio as well. Let us wrap up a little bit because I think Imogene in her creative way, she hasn't quite made a film yet about life on the internet, but she might. But I do think she wants you to begin to see that the new isn't feared, it's something that can be really embraced. And the gap is between the way we're communicating and what we're doing in that communication that could really make for better bonds, the same way she and I are talking here today. I must tell you that when I do just audio, it's fine for a podcast, but I certainly love doing the video card because she and I are having a great conversation. And for all of you are listening to it. So enjoy the conversation. Let me thank all of you who have been coming to On the Brink with Andi Simon. We launched this in 2017. And the reception has been just fantastic. I mean, you've pushed us into the top 5% of global podcasts. And I'm always impressed with how people find me to say, I'd like to be on your podcast, or bring me people who they think should be on my podcast. So I open that up: info@Andisimon.com gets right to me. But I have two books out there: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights. My third one comes out in September 2023. I can't tell you its name quite yet, but it's terrific. And you're going to really enjoy learning more about how to see, feel and think in new ways. That's the whole point of our podcasts and our blogs in the way we are trying to help people do something they hate, which is to change. Don't ever waste a crisis, I tell my clients. Use a crisis and learn from it, and begin to see how to do things better, or at least differently and test them. I love pilots. In any event, it's been a delightful day to share Imogene Drummond who came to you from the Hudson Valley. Thank you, Imogene. It's great fun. It's great fun to share your story. And I wish you all to get off the brink. So thanks for coming to On the Brink with Andi Simon, and let me know how you're doing. Goodbye now. Have a great day.

Hear how understanding someone's culture can improve lives I was so excited to have the opportunity to speak with Britt Titus on our podcast. As you will learn, Britt found her calling when she discovered how behavioral sciences and humanitarian concerns could transform the world, one step at a time. The two of us are crazy about behavioral sciences, so it was such a joy to share our fascination with the difficulties people have understanding others who differ from them. Whether addressing Ebola in Liberia and West Africa or helping mothers in Mali avoid malnourishment in their children, Britt is constantly humbled by the challenges of helping people do things that seem so logical to those of us from the Global North. As she says, nothing is as simple as it might appear. And humility can often be the best way to bring about changes that can have a huge impact on health. Don't miss this one! Watch and listen to our conversation here It isn't that people cannot understand what you are saying They just have different stories in their own minds about what those words mean and how or why to change their behaviors. Solving problems with others requires us to understand what matters to them, what they believe to be truth. Remember, as I like to say, the only truth is there is no truth. Listen in to Britt Titus and enjoy our journey as part of your own. About Britt Britt's background lies at the intersection of behavioral insights and humanitarian action. She previously worked at Nudge Lebanon where she managed projects that applied behavioral insights to issues related to conflict and violence, ranging from gender-based violence to social cohesion and refugee integration. Beforehand, she spent most of her career working for the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) in humanitarian response and preparedness across Africa, Asia and the Middle East, including emergency deployments to Liberia for the Ebola outbreak and the Middle East for the regional Syria response.  Britt has a Master of Public Policy (MPP) from the University of Oxford where she focused on applied behavioral science and completed research at the Behavioural Insights Team (BIT) in London. You can connect with Britt on LinkedIn or her page on the Airbel Impact Lab website. For more stories about living with a purpose, we recommend these: Podcast: Lisa McLeod—If You Want To Succeed, You Must Find Your Noble Purpose Podcast: Pat Shea—Use Your Passions To Become Who You Want To Be Podcast: Theresa Carrington—Transforming Impoverished Artisans Into Entrepreneurs Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon. I'm your host and your guide. As you know, I'm the founder and CEO of Simon Associates Management Consultants. We specialize in applying anthropological tools to help people change. And you know, as I've told you, so many times people hate to change, so we help you see things through a fresh lens and get off the brink and soar. Today, I'm absolutely honored to have with us Britt Titus. Now this is a very interesting woman whom you are going to love to meet to learn more about and understand how behavioral sciences can be applied in humanitarian ways that you may be unfamiliar with. Let me read you her background and then I'll introduce her. Her background lies at the intersection of behavioral insights and humanitarian actions. She previously worked at Nudge Lebanon where she managed projects that applied behavioral insights to issues related to conflict and violence, ranging from gender-based violence to social cohesion and refugee integration. She's going to tell you more about that. Beforehand, she spent most of her career working for the United Nations World Food Program in humanity, humanitarian response and preparedness across Africa, Asia and the Middle East, including emergency deployments to Liberia for the Ebola outbreak in the Middle East for regional Syria response. Britt has a Master of Public Policy from the University of Oxford, where she focused on Applied Behavioral Science and completed research at the Behavioural Insights Team in London. It's really an honor and a privilege to have you here. I'm so glad you could join me. Tell our listeners, it's so much fun. Let's add one behavioral scientist to another who are working in different areas, but in similar ways, sort of tell us about Britt. What's your journey like? Let's make you come alive so people can appreciate how you've applied behavioral sciences to all kinds of different problems. Please, who's Britt? Britt Titus: Thanks, Andi. Happy to share. So I started my journey really working for the United Nations when I was in my early 20s, which seems like a long time ago now. And, you know, the team that I was working with within the United Nations was really like a fire response department. So we were responsible for responding to emergencies all over the world, across many different continents, which included a lot of kind of rapid deployments for sudden onset emergencies. And so I really started my career by being thrown in the deep end. My first year with the UN, I was deployed to work on the Syria emergency across Jordan and Lebanon, trying to support the humanitarian community to get aid and relief supplies into the country across borders. And shortly after that, I was also deployed to the Ebola outbreak in 2014, if you can remember that, at that time. So being deployed to Monrovia, that capital, and working within the UN system to try to better respond to the growing number of Ebola cases at that time. And so this was a really formative period in my life. It was extremely rewarding. But something that was always the most interesting to me was the human element. Why are people responding the way they do? Why, when we, the humanitarian community, are bringing relief supplies to communities in Liberia and West Africa, why is there so much fear, and, you know, the incredible, impossible task of trying to encourage people who are experiencing the Ebola outbreak, to kind of turn over their sick family members to these faceless, masked PPE-donned health workers? In the midst of this crisis were all actions that needed to happen and we were struggling. We were building these large Ebola treatment units across the country, these large hospitals, and the beds were empty. And so we had to try and understand very rapidly, why are people not bringing their loved ones, their family members to these hospitals. What we understood was, it was the human element. It was the fear, it was the misinformation, it was the rumors. And the very, very difficult task of taking someone who's very ill and handing them over to these places that were very unknown and unfamiliar and foreign. And so these were the questions that I always grappled with and was so fascinated by. And so, partway into my career within the UN, I really knew that I wanted to go back and spend some time studying a little bit more and understanding how we can shift the way we do humanitarian response. A lot of organizations, you know, the way that we've been doing humanitarian response now is the way we've been doing it for 50 years, and so there's a lot of growing interest in more innovative ways of responding so we can improve outcomes for people whose lives are affected by crisis and conflict. And so one of those ways that I found, maybe my first week doing my master's of public policy, someone mentioned behavioral science, and I said, what's that? As soon as they told me what it was like, that's what I've always been interested in. I just didn't know the name of it. I didn't know that it had a whole evidence based theory behind it. And so I signed up for every course that I could at the University of Oxford, and really delved deep into it. The struggle was, of course, that I found that it was being applied in government, and it was being applied in private sector companies around the world. But, it was not being applied in a systematic way in the humanitarian sector to deal with the issues that I cared about, like pandemics, and health, and prevention of violence, and education for people affected by crisis. And so I was searching high and low for people who would be interested in this behavioral science thing. And it was difficult at that time, that was 2016. I had a lot of really interesting conversations with people who thought it was a great idea. But, it was definitely difficult to get some traction. And so eventually, I found Nudge Lebanon which is a small NGO working out of Beirut, in Lebanon, applying behavioral science to issues like social cohesion between the host population and refugees, health, nutrition, all of these topics that I care so deeply about, and really was able to start start running experiments to understand human behavior, and all for the purpose of trying to improve humanitarian outcomes for people, Syrian refugees, and Lebanese, in Lebanon. And so that was really the beginning of my career in this intersection of these two areas that I care about so deeply, and eventually found that IRC, the International Rescue Committee, the organization I currently work for, has an innovation team called the Airbelt Impact Lab. And within that, one of their core areas, or kind of tools in their toolkit, is behavioral science and so I joined that team, and now I lead the behavioral science team there. So that's my journey, Andi Simon: The most exciting part is that you have gone through your own self discovery. At the same time, you're now trying to bring a new perspective and way of seeing things to people who think they're doing just fine, thank you very much. The most interesting part, you know, there are many things that are interesting about what you're doing, but the hardest part is that it isn't working but that's the way we do it. And if that's the way we've always done it, that must be the right way to do it. But it's not working. Well, maybe it could work better. But that's the way we've always done it. And I can tell you, it's not that different from going into an organization, a business that is fractured, a toxic culture. And they say, well, this isn't good, but it's the way we've always done it. Humans are wonderfully resistant to leaving that shiny object and going to a new way of seeing things that might do better. And the big question is, how will we know? You know, the unknown becomes a crux for not doing it. And so I'm anxious to hear about some of your extraordinary experiences, helping them honestly do just what we said today: see, feel and think in new ways, so they can really overcome the resistance and do better. Help us understand some of the ways that this has been working for you. How have you been able to start the transformation of people's minds? And you know, breaking down the resistance to change? Britt Titus: Well, yes. So yeah, normally with our work, applying behavioral science in humanitarian settings, we are aiming to shift behavior in the population that we're serving. So for example, we're aiming to shift behavior of teachers in a refugee camp or parents in a conflict setting. But you're absolutely right, Andi, that the change needs to start at home. And it is really difficult. And a lot of the behavioral biases and the resistance to change that we see in all of us also happens in our own organizations and our own teams. And so, yes, we are a small team, doing behavioral science work, a team of around four people at the moment, sitting within a wide integration of 15,000 people almost in 40 different countries around the world. So it is no small feat to embed this new approach into the work we're doing. So yeah, I think, you know, a lot of what we try and do with the population, we also try to do at home. I think one of the good things, one of the opportunities, is that a lot of what teams have been doing for a long time, their aim is ultimately what we're trying to do is try to shift behavior, or help people kind of align their actions with their intention. So supporting populations to achieve the outcomes that they want for themselves, whether that's improved education for their family, improved health, whatever it is, and so often, that's really an entry point for us. Because ultimately, we want the same thing. We want to shift behavior in some way, or help people kind of leverage these drivers of behavior, which can help achieve outcomes. So that's our first entry point. And so I think, what is important is to first kind of help these other teams see that we're trying to achieve the same thing, which is always important for behavioral science work, is kind of identifying where the kind of similar values are, or where your shared values, your shared objective is, and then coming in and offering behavioral science, and that is something that's going to replace the ways of doing things from before, and it's definitely not a silver bullet. But what we try to do is help teams see that we can all use it as an added boost. All of these projects, especially for these humanitarian contexts, are working in where the challenges are extremely complex, and extremely just have a lot of complexity in them. Using these tools that can help us understand human behavior, not just at the individual or household level, but also at the system level within a country can be extremely, extremely helpful. And what's also beneficial is that behavioral science interventions tend to be quite cost effective, whether it's shifting the way that people see an intervention, or using different types of messaging, or helping people plan for the future. These are not tools that are incredibly expensive. And so they actually work very well in these contexts, especially where we're resource constrained, which we often are in a humanitarian context. So there's a lot that we can do there to kind of help people see that this is something that can be added on to their existing way of doing things and be embedded within program development and design and doesn't have to replace it. I think what's also really important is bringing teams along in the entire journey. So we know that if people are involved in things early on, they tend to have a sense of ownership, which is really good for building momentum and having buy-in. But at the same time, we know that these programs and these projects are only really going to be effective if we have the input of the people who are closest to the problem. And so it's really twofold. It is important to build ownership. But it's even more important to have their input, because behavioral science interventions are only as good as we understand the context of the problem. And typically, it's our project teams and and our teams on the ground who know those things the best. Andi Simon: How my head is going through at least a dozen questions. Let me take you through the first question. I'll be an apologist. How do you access real insight into what they think the problem is, or how do you begin to, because to your point, people have a story in their mind and that's the one they're trying to live. Like, we don't want to. You're trying to show them a different way that might be more effective, whether it's teaching or it's abuse in the home, or it's whatever the issue is. So somehow, we have to change their story. The Ebola one is a perfect one. You know, the big place wasn't the right place for my sick mom. But you didn't know how I felt or my story about it so I'm not going to do what you say. Even if it may be the right solution, but doesn't fit the way we do things. So story, changing your messaging point is extremely important. And it has to resonate with both the people you're collaborating with on your side and the people who you're trying to engage. Because if they don't engage in the solution, it'll just sit on the surface and never get below it. Am I right? Britt Titus: Absolutely. Yes. What do you do? Great. It's a great question. So I think, traditionally, behavioral science has tended to be a little bit top down. So behavioral scientists get together in a team, they come up with an intervention. You know, they try and understand a bit about the context in which they test that intervention, usually in a rigorous way or with some type of evaluation, but what we've found especially, definitely around the world, but definitely in these contexts, is, we have to spend a lot more time doing this in a more bottom up approach. One, because a lot of the behavioral science evidence including anthropology and psychology and social sciences is really based in the Global North and stable Western context. And so we don't actually know, as a field, as a community, a lot about the unique psychologies of people who are experiencing conflict displacement, or people who are living in the Global South. What is challenging about that is that means we have to do a lot better. But there's really an opportunity there as well, because I think it really forces us to be more humble about what we don't know, and really go in and speak to our clients, we call them clients, the communities that we're serving, as the experts. They are the experts in what is going to work best for them. They are the experts in what has been tried before and has failed. If we create something for them without them being included, then it's never going to be a sustainable solution. Even if we encourage people to take something up once, it doesn't mean they're going to change their behavior in the long run. And so I have an example of a project where this was very evident in northeast Nigeria. So in northeast Nigeria, and globally, the community has been trying to roll out a different way of teaching children, which is called social and emotional learning, which really tries to improve the social and emotional capabilities and skills of children, especially vulnerable children in places like the ones we work in northeast Nigeria, and Yemen, and Lebanon. And so the reason we're doing this is because there's a lot of evidence in the Global North about how these types of activities that can improve emotional regulation, or conflict resolution in children, have been extremely effective. And so humanitarian organizations have tried to roll those out in these contexts as well, except they found very little impact or even no impact when they roll them out. This obviously leads to a lot of confusion. Why are these interventions, these very effective evidence based interventions, working in the Global North and not in places like northeast Nigeria? And so when we went into the project to try and look at this, we had two hypotheses. One was, maybe these activities have not been contextualized enough for the northeast Nigerian context. And the second one was, teachers may not be using them enough for them to have the skill building effects on children so we're not seeing any impact. And so what we did is, we started from the very kind of most local way we could start. So we started by speaking to teachers, parents, headmasters, to the local government in the area, and trying to understand how they see social emotional learning happening in children. What does it mean to grow up to be a successful, socially adapted, emotionally regulated adult in Nigeria, not in the US? What does it mean to do that in Nigeria, and we learned a lot from that exercise. What we learned is, the skills that they thought were most important did not sound very much like the ones that we had been trying to promote. From the US context, the skills that teachers told us in northeast Nigeria that were the most important for children to learn were things like self discipline, obedience and tolerance, which is very different from terms like emotional regulation and conflict resolution. And at first, this was quite alarming to some of our colleagues in the US because words like obedience and discipline don't go down so well in the US context. And so, we had some people who didn't want to use those terms. Andi Simon: Forgive me for laughing, I'm holding back my laugh, because those aren't the right terms? How would they know? Well, they are who they are, and what they know. But I'm sitting here going, we can deny right? Britt Titus: So yeah, we had this little bit of a moment of tension where the local terms and the locally valued skills sounded very different from what had been promoted and studied in the Global North. And so what we did is, we actually did a mapping exercise where we try to understand: what did these words mean to you? We asked the teachers: What does it mean for a child to be obedient and have self discipline, what does that look like? And they told us things like: being able to focus on a task for a long period of time, being able to work well with other students in the classroom and not getting in fights. And it was all the same thing that we were trying to promote in the Global North, they just had completely different ways of talking about it. And that was a real breakthrough, because we realized that teachers were going to be far more interested in using an activity that promotes self discipline and obedience than one that promotes emotional regulation, a term that meant nothing to them. And it meant the same thing, it was promoting the same outcome. And we found as we tested, as we used more of this local framing, and more of this local content, the way we talked about the activities, how we talked about the benefits to the children of engaging with these, we saw more uptake. Teachers were more and more interested in using these activities. And it was almost like, finally, you've created something that's actually for our classrooms. And so we did this kind of iterative approach of working with, I think it was about 12 core teachers over a year, continually improving, adding more local content to the program, infusing these local framings, to the point where every single word we used throughout this program, from the training to the activity cards to the illustrations, were completely localized. And we saw really big improvements. And we just did a pilot study that ran for about six months, and found that on average, teachers have been using these activities for about 18 minutes a day, up from pretty much zero. So we're really excited about this progress. And, yeah, it seems to be the evidence so far showing that teachers are really excited and motivated to use these activities for the first time since we've been testing them, so just an example. Andi Simon: That's a big example. And for our listeners or viewers, think about what Britt is talking about. First, they are co-creating it with the end user. And the second thing is that words create the worlds we live in. And they are words that may sound like your words, but they don't have the same meaning. And the third part is that if you don't understand the story and what they're looking for in the behavior, as opposed to the words, you won't know what it is you're trying to actually achieve. And it becomes an interesting, I'll call it my aha moment, when you realize that we're trying to both do the same thing really well, but if we don't think of it from your perspective, you know, not mine, and it isn't what I do, it's what you need, how do I help you? It reframes the whole conversation and now we become a support team. And maybe that's not how you see it but our job is to be an enabler, a facilitator, a support team, and then watch what's actually happening and redirect it along, and we become collaborators and partners in transformation. That is a very exciting place to be, isn't it? Britt Titus: Yes, absolutely. I think you summarized it perfectly. Andi Simon: But your word humble is very important as well. Britt Titus: Yes, it's a mindset. But I think putting it into practice looks exactly like what you said. It is working extremely closely with the people that you're designing for. It's treating them as experts. It's co-creating with them at every step of the way. It's making sure that you are checking every assumption you have and everything down to the words and what they mean, and how they know what they mean, to people that might be different from the way you think about them. You know, I think all of those things are the practical applications of a humility mindset. And I think every project could benefit from that type of approach. Andi Simon: Well, what you're really doing is something very powerful because if you have 4000 folks out there who all think that they know better, and the folks are trying to help, don't, you can't go very far. I don't know if you know Judith Glaser's work on conversational intelligence and the power of neuroscience. She was an organizational anthropologist. The brain assuming they're all very much the same brains. When you say I the amygdala immediately fears, it flees, it hijacks it, it fights, it runs away from it, it just protects you. You're challenging me. But if we say we, all of a sudden: procreation, the trust, the oxytocin flows through your brain. We bond and if that's the way our minds work, regardless if you're in West Nigeria, or Lebanon, and we say the right words, however that said, and that doesn't necessarily mean we, but it is a different response for reasons that are good, but the mind isn't fighting you or fleeing you. It wants to know how, and that creates a behavioral sciences. An enormous power of transformation. As you're thinking, is there another illustrative case of things actually working? Britt Titus: Yeah, Absolutely, yeah. So I think another really exciting project we have been working on using a similar approach is in Mali. And one of the big problems that we're trying to address in Mali and other countries is severe acute childhood malnutrition. And so one of the big problems with trying to address childhood malnutrition is being able to detect it and diagnose it. And a lot of children don't get the treatment that they need because they never get diagnosed, and it's too late by the time that they are diagnosed, it's too late in their journey. And, it's too difficult to either bring them back or there's a lot of health morbidities that come with that. So, in rural areas, like in Mali, where we work, typically the place to get diagnosed is quite far away. Mothers and fathers tend to have to travel very, very far distances, hours a day, if they want to go visit a clinic. And so one of the kinds of solutions within the humanitarian space is to put the opportunity and responsibility of screening children in the hands of parents themselves. And so there's a tape that is given out to mothers which goes around a child's arm, upper arm, and can measure whether or not they're malnourished or not, with a red, yellow, green kind of traffic light type measurement. The problem is, if you are going to screen your own child for malnutrition, you have to do that every single month at least, sometimes every single week, in order to detect these small changes that can happen that you might not notice just by looking at your child if you see them every day. And so this is a behavior that is quite difficult. It's something that you have to do every single month, which is a very difficult timing to remember. I think, if you and I were told to do something every month for the next year, at some point in the month without a phone reminder, or an email calendar, notification, there's pretty much no way I remember to do that. And also, these mothers are expected to do a lot. They are cooking for the family, they are cleaning, they are sometimes working. And so, in terms of mental scarcity, and in terms of all the things that they're expected to remember and to do every day, it's pretty much impossible that they remember to do this. And so we've seen in areas where the majority of women were trained on this approach, very little, maybe a fifth of those women, ever use that tape to screen their own children for malnutrition, which is a big problem. So we wanted to understand why this is happening. What's going on? What is the reason why we're seeing so much kind of drop off after the training, and how can we encourage women to screen their children because ultimately, they want their children to be healthy and happy and to know if their children are experiencing malnutrition, so they can get help in time. So when we did this kind of exploratory phase, which we'd like to do, especially based on what we said earlier, we don't know a lot about the psychologies of women in rural Mali. And there are no papers out there that say how to encourage mothers in rural Mali to screen their own children for malnutrition. There's actually very little to go on. And if you were going to try and develop a reminder, which is a common behavioral science tool used across the world, if you were going to try and set that up, for example, in the US or the UK, you might send text message reminders, once a month. The problem is these women do not have their own phones, maybe they share a phone in the household. Even if there is a phone, they might not have a signal. Very often it might be in and out. And they might not have the ability to have phone data on a regular basis. So that's really not an option for us. And many of them are illiterate, meaning that even if we sent a text message, it would be very difficult for them to read it. So we had to come up with a way of reminding women in rural areas without using any technology or any kind of, you know, device or data which we often rely on. And, this is especially difficult in areas where these women have a different way of considering time and timekeeping than we would. There's no calendars in their home, there's not necessarily kind of the same way we would think about timing and marking days. And so we really have to understand how these women think about time. How do they remember to do the things that they already do? What are their existing things that they have to remember to do once a month or once a week? And how can we really leverage what they're already doing and the way they already consider time and piggyback onto that. And so we did a lot of testing with these women over and over again, going back and back and forth to this region of Mali, and testing and prototyping and showing them examples, which was really fun and they really enjoyed being able to rank different ideas and give us feedback, and they were very honest with us. One of our ideas was, should we get a little device that goes off once a month, a little beeper? They very confidently said, Well, where are we going to get the batteries for that? That's a silly idea. And so they were very, very helpful in that co-creation. process. And I think we've found across projects that the more time you spend with the user group, the more you build trust, and the more honest answers you start getting. It's not always the case at the beginning. So really investing in those relationships, and seeing the same women over and over again, was very, very helpful for the project, to really get the nitty gritty out of the context and their lived experience. And so what we ended up finding out is that many of these women are in these informal women's savings groups. So they meet about once a month, with other women, and they pool their savings. And we were like, Great, well, you're already doing this thing once a month. And so we thought, Well, what happens if we piggybacked on that, and we encourage women to bring their children to these meetings once a month, and they can all screen together, which would be socially reinforcing. You'd be seeing other women doing it. It would be the reminder to you and have the ease of doing it there when everyone else is doing it, and you have support of other women if you're not quite sure, if you're getting the right reading especially if you are holding a wiggly child on your lap and trying to get their arm to hold still is, is an impossible feat on its own. So we tested this out, and they really, really loved it. So we got really positive feedback. And we're able to continue iterating on that idea, and kind of create the social network reminder that came out of months and months of spending time with a population understanding their lived reality that we would have never known had we tried to come up with a solution and implemented in the first few weeks, that took months of getting to know the population before we're able to find that kind of sweet spot between what they're already doing, and what also meets the needs of the program. So we've also just run a pilot study on that and found really promising results from that activity. And women are really excited about using those groups with other women to screen their children for malnutrition. Andi Simon: We don't have to talk now about what they do if they find out if they are malnourished. But that's another piece of this, but I think that the power of the group is fascinating for Westerners who think about isolation. And families having new grandparents here. There's a great bunch of articles that just came out on the power of the grandparent and that the nature of society and smallest scale societies is very much about each other, about a collaboration. Even if you live in isolation, you need the others to help you save, take care of your kids, and know-how and doing it together. It's much more exciting and fun, and something purposeful, in your mind, as opposed to simply tactical and practical. Yes, it was tactical and practical. Take the measurement, and you'll know. Britt Titus: Much better to have that kind of social accountability and to have that reminding point, and to know that other women are going through the same thing, which also can help a lot with stigma and norms as well. So we believe that can also be a kind of an intervention that picks up momentum, as people start to see that this is the new norm, and start to see others doing it more often. Andi Simon: I think you'll probably have a bunch of detours along the journey. I don't think there's a destination per se. But I think the other part you might find is that there'll be self-appointed leaders who begin to take ownership of this and who now feel a responsibility to the group, casual, informal leaders, who now talk to each other in a way that they can see the benefits and then it becomes contagious. It's so interesting because it doesn't matter whether it's here in the States or anywhere else, humans are fascinating. And if you don't pause for a moment and see through their eyes and how to do it, you can't go anywhere, even if we know where we need to go, it won't get there. And then they're the problem, but they're not the problem. You're the problem. Actually, you're not the problem, either. The problem is a problem. Then the question is, how can we get past it to find some solutions that are clever and creative and innovative? There's a book called, The Secret of our Success. It's a wonderful book about how human evolution has happened. You and I both love to look back to go forward. But it's because of our collective brains. And what you're describing as a collective brain, not an isolated one. The isolates didn't do very well, they didn't survive very well. But together, we can do far better, in the shareables, and you will almost probably become part of the shareables. You are no longer the outsiders but part of the insider. This is such fun. You and I could talk for a while. We've probably taken our listeners' and viewers' time up, but I so enjoy the opportunity to share your sharing with us. And I can't thank you enough for doing that. The organization: would you like to share a little bit more about the work that you're doing at the IRC? And how people might find out more about it? And why it should be important for them, please? Britt Titus: Absolutely, yes. So the IRC is also speaking of looking back in time, quite an old organization. So it was actually set up in 1933, at the request of Albert Einstein to support the Germans who were suffering under Hitler's regime, and also eventually refugees from Mussolini's Italy, and Franco's Spain. And so this organization has been around for a long time, and has also had many iterations. And so yeah, now we're a large organization, as I mentioned, serving around 40 different countries around the world. And within that organization, we have the Airbelt Impact Lab, which is our research and innovation, part of the organization. And so within that team, we're really focused on trying to create breakthrough solutions in the areas of malnutrition, which I've mentioned, education, and emergencies, which I've also mentioned, women's health, and climate resilience and adaptation for the future climate shocks and current climate shocks that are disproportionately affecting people in humanitarian contexts. So those are the main areas that we are focusing on with our innovation, behavioral science, human-centered design, and all of these different approaches. And so I welcome everyone to have a look at our website, which is the Airbelt Impact Lab website, which I think you can probably share with people. It's airbelt.rescue.org, to read about some of the projects we've been working on and see how you can support it if you're interested in being involved. Andi Simon: Don't you love it! You have found your calling. It is so beautiful. Thank you, I don't know where your journey is going to take you, but thank you for sharing it today. And for all of our listeners and viewers, thank you for sharing our podcasts with your network and wherever you can. As I mentioned, we are now in the top 5% of global podcasts. It's truly an honor and a privilege to be able to find great people like Britt to share with you and then you take it from there. If you've got folks you want us to interview, info@Andisimon.com is just how you can reach us. And SimonAssociates.net is our website. My books are available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And they continue to be best sellers and award winners and having fun. My next book comes out next September 2023 and I will tell you all about it when it happens. But for now, I want to wish you a safe and happy journey wherever life is taking you. And please enjoy yourself for every day is a gift. And we have to leave it like that. And Britt is doing some marvelous work. Go look at her website and take a look at how you might be able to help her or at least learn from what she's doing. The messaging is very important. She is helping you see, feel, and think in new ways. And that's what we're here to help you do. So on that note, I'm going to sign off and say goodbye. Thanks for it.

Learn what motivates you and others so you can collaborate better While I have used the Enneagram personality framework with clients, I have never had as great a discussion about it as I had with Karl Hebenstreit. Karl is a certified executive coach, organization development consultant, international speaker and author of two books: The How and Why: Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram and Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision (for younger readers). So what is the Enneagram, you may ask? More than just another personality test or behavior identification technique, this human psychology-based theory opens your mind to how you see yourself, the teams you work with, and the world at large regarding motivation and behavior. Which of the nine personality types are you? Listen to Karl to find out! Watch and listen to our conversation here: Ready to learn what makes you tick?  Whether it is the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs or the Culture Index or Hogan Assessments, there is an abundance of tools available to help us see, feel and think in new ways about ourselves and others. You will enjoy this podcast conversation as Karl takes us through his own journey of discovery and how he is using his tools to help people build diverse organizations. The Enneagram is a really unique, really effective tool It does not focus on the typical racial, ethnic, gender or sexual orientation conversations about diversity. Or even about neuro- or cognitive diversity. Rather, as you study the nine types of Enneagrams that are all partially inside ourselves, you realize that creating strong organizations requires us to learn more about each other and build better together. Are you an Active Controller? A Considerate Helper? An Enthusiastic Visionary? You might just be surprised. About Karl Hebenstreit With 25+ years' experience in the biotechnology, healthcare, telecommunications, high-tech, pharmaceutical and real estate services industries, Karl is an expert at building relationships at all levels, fostering and integrating collaborative environments, and leading and motivating others to realize their full potential by adopting new mindsets to achieve extraordinary results. To contact Karl, find him on LinkedIn, his website www.performandfunction.com or by email: rkarlh@gmail.com. To learn more about how personality types affect collaboration, start here: Blog: Achieving Business Change Using The Enneagram Personality System Podcast: Maureen Berkner Boyt—Yes, Diversity And Inclusion Can Happen But Only If You Work At It Podcast: Johanna Zeilstra—Let's All Build Companies That Make Gender Fair Additional resources for you My two award-winning books: Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Businessand On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights Our website: Simon Associates Management Consultants   Read the transcript of our podcast here Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi, I'm Andi Simon, your host. As you know, I'm the founder and CEO of Simon Associates Management Consultants. You also know that I don't like to do too much promotion on this podcast. What I like to do is celebrate the guests whom I'm honored to bring to you so you can do something special: get off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways. Fast-changing times are asking you to do just that. Most of us hate change. And we're not quite sure how to really respond. But I promise you, never waste a crisis. And even though the pandemic seems to be sliding back, the new is so unfamiliar. And I don't care what kind of business or work you do, you're facing people who are also trying to adapt to fast-changing times. Somehow, you're going to have to figure out who they are now that they're hybrid. Are they the same people that used to come into the office? What do I know about myself? How do I manage this wonderful array of people now, some are in, some are out? The world has become global, and AI sticks its nose into the thing and chatbots are doing all kinds of stuff. How can I help? So today I have Karl Hebenstreit with us. And Karl is a wonderful individual I will tell you about. And then he will tell you about his own journey. Who is Karl? Karl is a certified executive coach, leadership and organization development consultant, and author of two books that I'll tell you a little bit about, and an international speaker. His career spans the areas of HR and OD in biotech, clinical diagnostics, life sciences, healthcare, pharmaceuticals, and many other industries. He has really taken his expertise to places that needed him. He holds a PhD in organizational psychology, and is helping organizations to attract, retain and motivate employees. He has an MS in HR management from Rutgers. And so he's in New Jersey near us here in New York. But it's really quite interesting. He's the author of The How and Why: Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram now in its second edition, and a children's book called Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision. I'm not sure which we're going to spend more time on, the really tough decisions. And don't think that even though you're grown up, you aren't still Nina and trying to figure it out. Karl, thanks for joining me today. Karl Hebenstreit: Thank you so much, Andi, this is a pleasure and an honor and privilege to be with you today. And absolutely. You are so correct. And we are all Nina, we all have Nina within us forever for our entire lives. And how do we access Nina? And how do we access all of the gifts and just perspectives that she can get from everything that's within her? And that's really what we're here to talk about today. Andi Simon: Well, you've had a wonderful career and a journey and people like to hear your story. Who are you? And how have you come to the point where this has become a focus, because I think it's evolved for you, hasn't it? Karl Hebenstreit: It really has, and I love to say that it was planned and strategized, but it wasn't. The only planning and strategizing was that I needed to get an education to be able to figure out what I'm going to do in this world and how I can impact change. And I started in one direction and ended up in a completely different direction and that was the right direction. So yes, as you said, there is a total East Coast connection. I was born in New York on Long Island, Mineola, Long Island, and was raised in Greece, my mom is Greek. So we went back to Greece when I was two. And I was there for seven years. I came back to the United States with my parents with a Greek accent, which maybe every once in a while you hear some weird syllable or pronunciation, but it's pretty much all gone. And we settled back in Old Bridge, New Jersey, and I was in New Jersey for pretty much the rest of my formative years, until I moved to California in 1998. And my formative years were spent, as you said, in New Jersey, my education was from Rutgers. My undergrad is from Rutgers. My master's is from Rutgers. And I really didn't know what or where I was going to go with my aspirations. My parents had ideas for sure, just like everyone's parents do. And my mom steered me towards languages and I started learning French and Greek as part of the school system there, along with Greek and English of course, and my dad was/is very much about politics, so he was political science, so I dutifully said, I'm going to do French and political science as a double major. I can use them. I can become a diplomat and lawyer or who knows what I'll become but that's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm going to pursue and I dutifully went forward using those as my majors. And then I took an elective course in psychology. And my eyes opened up. And I'm like, wow, this is interesting. This is really, really cool trying to understand people, trying to figure out why they behave the way they behave, why they do the things they do, what's brought them to where they are. And I took more and more elective courses because I needed elective courses to graduate. And I got to the point where I ended up with a minor in psychology, but I still had one more semester to go. And I figured out, you know, if I just take six classes in psychology for my last semester, I can get a third major. So it'd be psychology, French and political science. So then that gives you a little bit more of a hint of where my Enneagram type might be because of a wing of mine, probably that went into play there, which I didn't know at the time. So yeah, I ended up graduating from Rutgers with a triple major in psychology, French, and political science. And at a time, this was back in 1993, and the economy was not very good. So I ended up figuring, well let me start trying to find work. I couldn't find anything that I could use for my degrees. So I took this one course in industrial and personnel psychology as it was called back then. And I thought that was it. That's really the direction I want to take. But how do I get into that? So since I wasn't able to get a job right away in an area where I wanted to go into, I decided, well, let me get a temp job, I can become a temp. I was a temp during all of the school vacations and the holidays and everything like that. So back to the temp agency: I said, I have these parameters. These are my boundaries that I really want to focus on a job in human resources and a large organization that's headquartered here, which hopefully that would mean I'd get a job there after being a temp with them, and proving myself to them. And it had to be in the human resources department for the long term. It couldn't just be like, you know, a day here and a day there. It had to be something that was substantial. So they came through with me with Merck. Merck was a huge or is a huge employer in New Jersey, obviously. And I went to work there covering maternity leaves. I did two years of covering maternity leave after maternity leave after maternity leave, lots of people got pregnant at Merck. I don't know what was going on there. But yeah, covered for all the maternity leaves, and at the same time, at night was going to school for my master's in HR management. So it was a really cool way to pay for my education, and get to practice what I was learning during the day at work. So that's what immersed me in the field of human resources. And when I eventually moved from, eventually landed a job at AT&T, which then moved me from being headquartered in New Jersey, moved me from New Jersey to California, which is where I ultimately always knew I wanted to be. I don't know why it was just within me, ingrained that I was going to end up in California somewhere, didn't know whether it was going to be, north or south or wherever. I ended up in Northern California, knowing no one, absolutely no one, just moved out here. I knew this is where I needed to be. And that's where I fell into the Enneagram. So I decided my HR career was great. And I loved many, many aspects of it, but I wanted more. And so the next step, the next evolutionary step would be to go into organization development. And how do I do that? I need to get more of an education. So through AT&T's very generous tuition reimbursement program, I went to school again at night for my PhD in organizational psychology in California, and that's where I was introduced to the Enneagram. One of my professors was friends with Helen Palmer, who is a big name in Enneagram. She's in the peninsula. And she came in for one of our classes. It wasn't even a whole semester long class. It was just one class. And she came in and she introduced us to the Enneagram. And much like you, I know you use Myers-Briggs in some of your engagements, I was a Myers-Briggs guy. Myers-Briggs was great. It was awesome. It helped explain how things worked. People understood more about themselves. They understood more about their co-workers. People weren't crazy, or maybe they were but they were at least explainable. And then I found out that, Oh, wow, Myers-Briggs just scratches the surface. And we really don't know what's below the surface, what's causing or motivating those behaviors that we're seeing that Myers-Briggs is telling us that we do. So Helen Palmer explained that, all in that one class, that one less-than-three-hour class, and I was hooked, I was so hooked. I originally thought I was a certain type. All my classmates said Yeah, right. You're not, look at your actions. And they were right. Because we always want to be something we're not. Andi Simon: We don't really know what we are. And we don't have a good mirror to help us do that. And, consequently, we know humans are storymakers. We create a wonderful living story. In our mind, our mental map, and however we create it, that's where we live. We only see the things that conform to it. And if it doesn't fit, we just scrap it. We didn't delete it and so we're good at that. And so an Enneagram begins to create a way of understanding that story through a really sophisticated lens. They're all trying to help you see yourself through a fresh lens. What's interesting is that, I just want to pause for a moment because people listening and watching, you too may have had an epiphany at some point. I discovered anthropology when I was an undergraduate. And I really didn't have a major. I was wandering, trying to figure out what life was about. And then I took one course and next thing I know, I went, Oh, wow, this is who I am, not just what I want to do. It sounds like that's what we did. It's a calling. And so I am, and then I went to Columbia, and I finished it, but it's a very interesting feeling. And so if you're listening or watching, don't miss it when you have that aha moment in your brain. I can remember the professor, it was like, wow, yeah. While the Enneagram may help tell you more about yourself, you know, sometimes somebody will help you see yourself in ways that you couldn't imagine. And I don't think those are separate. So when you discover this, you know what you do with it. Karl Hebenstreit: I wanted to know more. Just that one three-hour class wasn't enough. I wanted to know more. So then I became involved in the International Enneagram Association, went to my first conference, started seeing all the different presenters and seeing what the different ways that people were using the Enneagram were. I really saw how I wanted to use it in business because I was in business, I was in human resources at the time. And I saw the connection. I was doing lots of recruiting at the time, and I saw how we were recruiting for the same type over and over and over again. And we were recruiting not only in our own image, but in the culture of the organization. We were excluding certain people right off the bat because we weren't acknowledging different drives and needs that they had that would be important for them to have in an organization, to offer them those options, for benefits, for culture that they would need. And the realization from a diversity perspective is that we do need all nine of those different drivers and perspectives in any group, team or organization. Otherwise, we're going to succumb to groupthink. And we're going to miss out on serving the needs of this whole other populace that is not being served, whose interests are not being thought of or considered. So that's where I just became totally immersed in it. And sort of practicing experimenting in the organizations for which I worked at that time, this was after 911. So AT&T had done some major layoffs. I was then working with many other different companies, and was able to practice the Enneagram and use the Enneagram model and framework in many different settings. I know traditionally, it's been used mostly for individual coaching, executive coaching, and team development and team building. But, there were so many other applications that I saw from all the other models that we use as consultants. And I saw the overlaps and the correlations. And I started saying, hold on a second, why do we need to know all these different models? What if we just tap into this one model and use its robustness for all these different applications? Andi Simon: There are so many and I can begin to wonder how many colors you are with disk and you know what, what flavors are you and what does it really help you do? So can you give us and the listeners and viewers some idea about a problem where you applied it, or a case study that worked well, because I want to dig a little deeper. We're torn in our society, between embracing the words diversity, equity, belonging, inclusion, and living it and being an apologist. Birds of a feather flock together; humans are herd animals and they feel the safest, out of danger, when they're with people who are like them, who look like them, talk like them and affirm them. I mean, we live with a mirror and we're looking for a mirror that looks like us in some fashion. But cognitive diversity, neurodiversity, racial, ethnic and gender diversity and sexual diversity, bring new ideas and new ways of doing things at a time when we really do need to embrace them as well as to realize that that's the world we're in. And I have a hunch you've been applying this in different places. Can you give us a couple of illustrations? Karl Hebenstreit: Absolutely. The one that immediately comes to mind is when I worked for a clinical diagnostics company, and my clients. I was internal. And my clients were the R&D division. So I had the Vice President of Research and Development, and all of his direct reports. And they had the introduction, and I did an introduction to the Enneagram for them. They loved it. They saw they understood each other better, and it was more for their own team development. But they were struggling, it was a type six company overall, and still is, I believe, and it was very much about that conservative nature, which really doesn't work in an R&D environment. You need to promote innovation and experimentation, and not basically punish people for exhibiting those behaviors that may not be successful because not all of R&D is going to be successful. I saw something somewhere that said, If we knew what we were doing, we wouldn't be calling it research. So it's experimentation and learning from failures, and not really punishing the people that went out of the box and did that. So they're struggling. Andi Simon: They want to create a new sandbox, but God forbid you walk outside the door and try something new. Karl Hebenstreit: Exactly, it's unsafe, you can't do that. So they knew the Enneagram. And this was a totally different engagement. We were totally different off site, because they were talking about empowerment. Empowerment was really something that they were wondering, why aren't people innovative? Why aren't they taking the initiatives to take things on? Why are they always coming to us for approval? Why does it have to go up the chain? And again, type six company, right? Andi Simon: So the second type six is a loyal skeptic? Is that what we're referring to? Karl Hebenstreit: Exactly! The loyal skeptic, their superpower. The type six superpower is the ability to see every single worst case situation that could possibly happen and plan and prepare for it, is how they stay safe. Because if it does happen, they are the ones that you want to follow. They have the plan, they have the kit. They have everything planned out and thought through and just follow them and you will go to safety. Andi Simon: Until there's a pandemic and they haven't got a clue what to do. Karl Hepenstreit: Exactly, exactly. They're more conservative there, you know: I need to stay safe, I need to be secluded, I need to be isolated. That kind of thing until they can figure out exactly what is the safest way to do it. And of course, we can dive a lot deeper into this. And there's a subtype that takes it to a different extreme where they push the boundaries, and they want to say, what will it take for me to be safe? Let me go and do all these outlandish things to know what the possibly horrifying, terrifying effects are and then plan for that afterwards, so that I know that it will be safe if these things even happen. So I will go skydiving, even if I'm afraid of heights, that kind of thing. So thank you for bringing that back to type six, the loyal skeptic and a little bit more conservative to be safe, to stay safe. And necessarily push those boundaries unless you're that specific subtype, or instinct. And what I thought I brought to them was because they were struggling, they were coming up with all these different things through their own lens, their own cultural lens that had all those barriers around it, all those walls around it. They couldn't figure out how to help their employees be more empowered. And I said, Hold on a second, you have a model, you think about what this model has taught us, right? So what if we created this structure that we have in this culture that we have that needs a safety net? Let's create a safety net that helps people be empowered. So why don't we look at the nine different types on the Enneagram and the insights that they provide and let's think about how we can help people say, let's look at what a type one lens would help us choose or look through. And that will be the perfectionist, that would be the mission, that would be the quality. So if someone has an idea as an employee, and wants to do something that's out of the box, have them go through each of the nine types and the questions that would be offered by them. And if they can answer them in a positive way and say, Yes, I've considered all these nine types and I know that this is going to work or it should work from everything that we know. And they go forward with it without running it up the flagpole, and if something does go wrong, or the pandemic strikes or whatever, that we didn't plan for, oh, well, this person did everything with due diligence in the positive intent. And, most of the times that would have been successful. But, if you know we have this weird one-off, the pandemic or some other thing that happens, we couldn't plan for that anyway. So guess what? The vice president would probably make the same decision if they did it with good faith and good intent and due diligence and followed all nine questions or nine perspectives. Something fantastic will have come of it, or they will learn a lesson and reapply it and tweak it and make it into something fantastic. And that's what can help us drive that innovation and empowerment that we're looking for, rather than people feeling like, if I do something and it goes wrong, I'm going to be punished. Andi Simon: Well, you know, part of the challenge, since we do a lot of work on cultural change, is that culture defines the way we do things here. And if you deviate from the way we do things here, it is scary, because you become an outsider. And, you know the book, The Secret of Our Success: How Culture Is Driving Human Evolution, Domesticating Our Species, and Making Us Smarter. I love that we've evolved because of this collective brain that we've shared, and not because of isolates who have fooled us, sometimes they have. But it is an interesting opportunity. The Enneagram, though, gives you a methodology for really understanding diversity in two new ways. And if you all find yourself at sixes, then you're going to have a hard time trusting anybody who comes in as an explorer or an inventor. But you could if you understood the differences there. Are there some illustrations about how it's being used to embrace diversity, and begin to understand what it means, something you can share perhaps? Karl Hebenstreit: Absolutely. There's actually some really great work through Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton. And she just published a book called Know Justice Know Peace: A Transformative Journey of Social Justice, Anti-Racism, and Healing through the Power of the Enneagram. And I love the way that she presents the Enneagram as a way that we have all these nine styles within us, and how do we tap into them. And obviously everyone is not at the same level of integration or healthiness in their journey, their development journey, and understanding themselves, and seeing how the Enneagram can help them be even more effective and productive and happier in their lives. So there are three different basic levels. And the really cool thing is, she shows how each type has this opportunity to leverage these gifts, the superpowers that each type has, and ultimately lead into an ally, to become an ally for all elements of diversity. So wouldn't it be great because we do have all nine types within us? We just concentrate on one core, that's our core motivator throughout our entire life. But wouldn't it be great to also explore these other eight styles that we have within us and see when they would be more appropriate in each different situation and know that other people are leading with one of those eight other styles or our style as well, but maybe through a different subtype or instinctual lens. And understand that we need all those nine perspectives in order to see the world as it really is, rather than just that 40 degree sliver that we're looking at it through. So there's an application that way, where we can teach people about the Enneagram. So it doesn't really take into account heredity, or sexual orientation, or race or anything like that, but it's all about, we're all human. We are all human. And we all share these nine primary motivators. And let's understand each other through those nine lenses and not exclude them, not separate them, but include them and integrate them into ourselves as well. So we have this robust, diverse power that we can then catalyze for making change, and making the world a better place. Andi Simon: Karl, if I hear what you just said clearly, and clarify for me, the words that are being used around diversity, all the different categories are fine, but maybe we should change that thinking not around gender, or sexual orientation or race or other things, but think about us as people who have different parts of us operating in different ways, nine different ways, to be looking at our different Enneagrams. I remember when I did mine, it was a one something and a seven. But I'm an explorer, but I'm also an artist, and I've been a boss. I've been, you know, EVP of a bank, and an achiever and the balance of them create who I am, not one, but all of them that I'm heavier in. And then there are others where I'm even an anthropologist, and I know I'm a server, I really do five things all the time. And a skeptic, not much. I don't over-plan, and I let life move me through a journey. But what's interesting about it is that it redefines the diversity that you need for effective relationships for effective business. And that makes sense, right? And now it gives us a platform on which to understand each other, as well as to personally know how we're evolving within the organization. Right? Karl Hebenstreit: And, tapping into the differences, because knowing that whatever every organization is going to somehow end up being a certain culture, it's going to align with a type one culture or two cultures, whatever one of the nine cultures just because of the nature of the industry, the nature of the leadership, and just who it attracts that way. However, wouldn't it be great to find the diversity that we need, and call it out rather than shun it and put it aside, knowing that we need that diversity because we know we're in groupthink world. Whenever we have more and more of these type threes congregating together, or seven kinds of getting together. And we just need to integrate these other perspectives as well, rather than close them off and shut them down and not allow them to speak and not allow them to have a voice. And we have all nine types within us. Andi Simon: I often use theater as a metaphor. This woman in Manhattan has a company called Performance of a Lifetime. And she's an ex-theatre person. And I've used her for public speaking training and all kinds of stuff. But usually, if you think of life as theater, and then the question is, what are the roles that you're playing when the context will influence what part of you. I mean, if Robert Redford can play Out of Africa and The Way We Were, so can you play multiple roles. You can be cast in one by others or you can begin to cast yourself in a way for now that you can lead or you can follow or you can be an adventurer, and you can reframe yourself and the story you have based on the context. And you know that you understand that, like, theater. We do have to wrap up because I'm watching our time and our listeners are very, very engaged for about a half hour. And we're just about at that point; a couple of things you don't want them to forget. Karl Hebenstreit: I don't want listeners to forget that it's really about the readiness of the person or the organization to which instrument you use. In some cases, the Enneagram is not the be-all and end-all for everything. Myers-Briggs is not the be-all and end-all for everything. Hogan is not the be-all and end-all, Leadership Circle is not. It's whatever the organization or person is ready for, to get that information about the feedback, to understand themselves better if they're not at that point of self awareness yet. So I think readiness is critical. The other thing is the platinum rule, which we didn't discuss. A lot of times people get hung up on the golden rule, which is to treat others the way that you want to be treated, which is not true and it's not diverse, inclusive, it's not. The platinum rule is a far better rule for people to help understand how other people want to be treated. So treat people the way they want to be treated, which then helps us use any of these other instruments that we mentioned. But the Enneagram really tends to be the best one in that realm because it helps us understand where they're coming from, what their drivers are, their motivations, and what's how they want to be treated. Andi Simon: Well, you have to listen and listen without pushing it through your mind map so that you can really hear what they are saying and what they're all about. Karl Hebenstreit: You're absolutely right to interpret it through your lens. And we need to be more curious and not jump to conclusions about that, and hear their story and build that relationship with them to really know where they're coming from. And the third one is that we are all diverse inside of us. We have those nine diverse perspectives and ways of looking at the world. And we should not just stick to the one that is our core. We need to integrate all nine types, all the eight other styles that are lesser used, and are less accessible. So integrate all those and then we'll have a much better idea of what's going on in every single situation. Andi Simon: Now I have a hunch you have really elaborated on this in your book, right? Talk a moment about the name of the book and where they can find the book. Karl Hebenstreit: Yeah. So the book is called The How and Why: Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram. And it's in the second edition right now, the second edition got published during the pandemic when I had some time to really add more stuff to the first edition and make it even more robust and add more new learnings and more new exercises and models. So that is available to help people to basically use the Enneagram for any organizational development, organization development intervention that they have, or any organizational situation or challenge that they're put in. So that's available on Amazon. You can also check out more about it on my website, which is www.performandfunction.com. There's also another book intended for all audiences, especially people that may not even know the Enneagram in advance, not that you need to know the Enneagram in advance for the business book either. But this is intended to help people learn about the Enneagram at a much younger age so it makes their life easier so they can understand the importance of the diverse perspectives that lie within us and that we can really integrate. It's called Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision. So they take one of the chapters in the business book and really reinterpret it through the lens of a child learning about all the different perspectives that her different friends have, and so how can she greet them whenever she needs to make a difficult decision. Andi Simon: You know, you're tickling my curiosity about whether I should take Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business, my second book, and begin to rewrite it for a teen book. And it's an audience. But I'm not quite sure that teens can't read the book already. It's sort of like, Who do I want to be, and how. So it's a really interesting time. This has been such fun, if they want to reach you, your website is where they should go? Karl Hebenstreit: Performandfunction.com has all my contact information as well. LinkedIn, of course: Karl Hebenstreit. Andi Simon: I think that the listeners are probably listening to us talk about nine different types, and kinds of things that are difficult to talk about in a half hour. So I would urge you to Google Enneagram, and then get into Karl's book because it offers you a way to see, feel and think about the world and yourself through a fresh lens. That's my job to get you off the brink. I want you to soar again, to change. And sometimes the mirror isn't going back to what you need to know, to see the world the way it's developing. And I know in particular, people managing in a hybrid world really need to understand what people are going through as they are reassessing themselves, understanding how to get things done differently, and changes are unsettling your mind. You're amygdala gets hijacked and hates change and wants to go back to the familiar and you can't go back. The world that was, I'm not sure it's coming back that fast. Might be a little bit of time. But it's been great fun. Thank you for joining me today. Karl Hebenstreit: Thank you, Andi. This has been awesome.  Andi Simon: It is! For those of you who come, I can only tell you, thank you. You can pick up my books at Amazon and Barnes and Noble and, you know, Google them. They are selling really, really well. And I have colleges and universities still using On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights , and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business is helping women see themselves through a fresh lens so they know that they should not accept limits. And McKinsey's writing about the great breakup, and then women leaving the workforce, it's time maybe for women to understand themselves better, and help the organization understand why those women are so important to them. But you can reach me at info@andisimon.com and learn more about us there and about our programs. And Simonassociates.net is our website. It's brand new and ready for you to explore and learn all about what we do to help people see, feel and think. Goodbye Karl. Have a great day everybody who came, thank you for joining us. Have a wonderful day, bye bye now.