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“His hair went down and oh ****, it's the sexy bad guy” -Lucy “So historically offensive, I wanted to tear my ******* throat out” -Brett Where to find us: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Exclusive bonus episodes! In honor of Diddy and the multiple awful people in the movie, "Get Him to the Greek" is this months episode. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠On The Path Discord⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Best place to chat with the us and the community ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Where you can find Lucy Twitter - https://twitter.com/lucyjrobyn Twitch - https://www.twitch.tv/lucyjrobyn YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/lucyjrobyn Where you can find Brett ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Join co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez in conversation with LitFriends Lucy Corin & Deb Olin Unferth about their travels in the Sahara, ancient chickens, disappointments, true love, and why great books are so necessary. Our next episode will feature Melissa Febos & Donika Kelly, out December 22, 2023.   Links Libsyn Blog www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com https://www.lucycorin.com https://debolinunferth.com LitFriends LinkTree LitFriends Insta LitFriends Facebook   Transcript Annie Lito (00:00.118) Welcome to Lit Friends! Hey Lit Friends!   Lito: Welcome to the show.    Annie: Today we're speaking with Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth, great writers, thinkers, and LitFriend besties.    Lito:  About chickens, the Sahara, and bad reviews.    Annie: So grab your bestie   Annie & Lito: And get ready to get lit!   Lito: You know those like stones that you can get when you're on like a trip to like Tennessee somewhere or something, they're like worry stones? Like people used to like worry them with their thumb or something whenever they had a problem and it would like supposedly calm you down. Well, it's not quite the same thing, but I love how Deb describes her and Lucy's relationship is like, “worry a problem with me.” Like let's, let's cut this gem from all the angles and really like rub it down to its essential context and meaning and understanding. And I think essentially that's what like writers, great writers, offer the world. They've worked through a problem and they have answers. There's not one answer, there's not a resolution to it, but the answers that lead to better, more better questions.    Annie: Yeah, and there's something so special about them because they're, worry tends to be something we do in isolation, almost kind of worrying ourselves into the ground.   Lito: Right. Annie: But they're doing it together in collaboration.    Lito: It's a collaborative worry. Yes, I love that.    Annie: A less lonely worrying.    Lito: It's a less lonely place to think through these things. And the intimacy between them is so special. The way I think they just weave in and out of their lives with each other, even though they're far away from each other.   I think there's a romantic notion that you're tuned into about Lucy and Deb's trip to the desert. Do you want to say something about that? There's a metaphor in it that you really love, right?    Annie: (1:52) Yeah. Well, so I remember when we first talked about doing this podcast and invited them, we were at a bar at AWP, the writer's conference. And they were like, oh, this is perfect. We just went to the Sahara together. And I was like, what? You writers just decided to take a trip together through the desert? And they said, yeah, it was perfect. And they have adorable photos, which we of course are going to share with the world. Um, but it felt like such a, I mean, the fact that they would go on that kind of adventure together and didn't really plan ahead, I think it was just Deb saying, I really want to go to the desert. And Lucy saying, sure, let's go. Which feels very much a kind of metonym of their friendship in some ways.    Lito: Absolutely.    Annie: (2:42) Yeah. That they wandered these spaces together. They come back to art, right? Art is a way for them to recreate themselves and recreate their friendship. And they're doing such different things on the page.    Lito:  Oh yeah, no, they're very different writers but they do share a curiosity that's unique I think in their friendship, then unique to them.    Annie: Yeah and a kind of rigorousness and a love for the word.    Lito: (3:10) Oh and a love for thinking and reading the world in every capacity.    Annie: Tell me about your friendship with Lucy because you're quite close.   Lito: I was at UC Davis before it was an MFA program. It was just a Master's. After undergrad, I went to the master's program because I wasn't sure if I wanted to be an academic or do the studio option and get an MFA. I loved how Lucy and the other professors there, Pam Houston, Yiyun Li, showed us the different ways to be a writer. They couldn't be more different, the three of them. And, I particularly was drawn to Lucy because of her sense of art and play and how those things interact.    Lito: (03:59) And here was someone that was extremely cerebral, extremely intelligent, thinking through every aspect of existence. And yet it was all done through the idea of play and experimentation, but not experimentation in that sort of like negative way that we think of experimentation, which is to say writing that doesn't work, but experimentation in the sense of innovation. And. Lucy brought out my sense of play. I got it right away, what she was going for, that there is an intellectual pleasure to the work of reading and writing that people in the world respond to, but don't often articulate. Lucy's able to articulate it, and I admire her forever for that.    Lito: (4:52) And perhaps I'm not speaking about our friendship, but it comes from a place of deep admiration for the work that she does and the way she approaches life. You have a special relationship with Deb. I would love to hear more about that.    Annie: (5:04) Yeah, I think I've been fangirling over Deb for years. Deb is such a special person. I mean, she's incredibly innovative and has this agility on the page, like almost no other writer I know. Also quite playful, but I love most her humanity. Deb is a vegan who, in Barn 8, brings such life to chickens in a way that we as humans rarely consider. There's an amazing scene which she's like with a chicken 2000 years into the future. Also, I know Deb through my work with Pen City, her writing workshop with incarcerated writers at the Connally Unit, a maximum security penitentiary in Southern Texas.   Lito: How does that work? Is it all by letter or do you go there?    Annie: (5:58) Well, the primary program, you know, the workshop that Deb teaches is on site, and it's certified. So students are getting, the incarcerated writers, are getting now college credit because it's an accredited program. So Deb will be on site and work with them directly. And those of us who volunteer as mentors, the program has evolved a little bit since then, (06:22) but it's kind of a pen pal situation. So I had a chance to work with a number of writers, some who had been there for years and years. And a lot of folks are writing auto-fiction or fiction that's deeply inspired by the places they've lived and their experiences. It's such a special program, it's such a special experience. And what I saw from Deb was just this absolute fierceness. You know, like Deb can appear to be fragile in some ways (06:53.216), and it's her humanity, but actually there's this solid steel core to Deb, and it's about fortitude and a kind of moral alignment that says, we need to do better.    Lito: We have this weird connotation with the word fragile that it's somehow bad, but actually, what it means is that someone's vulnerable. And to me, there is no greater superpower than vulnerability, especially with art, and especially in artwork that is like what she does at the penitentiary. But, can I ask a question?    Annie:  Sure.   Lito: Why is it so special working with incarcerated folks?    Annie: (7:27) Oh, that's a great question. I mean, we need its own podcast to answer it.   Lito: Of course, but just sort of the...    Annie:  I think my personal experience with it is that so many incarcerated writers have been disenfranchised on all levels of identity and experience. Voting rights, decent food, accommodations, mental health, physical, you know, physical well-being. And we can't solve all those problems necessarily, at least all at once, and it's an up, it's a constant battle. But nothing to me offers or recognizes a person's humanity like saying, "tell us your story. Tell us what's on your mind. We are here to hear you and listen."  And those stories and they do come out, you know, there have been other programs that have done this kind of work, they get out in the world and there's, we're bridging this gap of people we have almost entirely forgotten out of absolute choice.  (8:27) And Deb is doing that work, really, I mean she's been doing that work for a long time and finally got some recognition for it, but Deb does it because she's committed.   Lito: That is really powerful. Tell us your story. Tell us your story, Lit Fam. Tell us your story. Find us in all your social media @LitFriendsPodcast or email us at LitFriendsPodcast@gmail.com   Annie: We will read all your stories. We'll be right back with Lucy and   Deb.   Lito: (09:00) And now, our interview with Lucy Corrin and Deb. Lucy Corin is the author of two short story collections, 100 Apocalypses and Other Apocalypses and The Entire Predicament, and two novels, Everyday Psychokillers and The Swank Hotel. In addition to winning the Rome Prize, Lucy was awarded a fellowship in literature from the NEA. She is a 2023 Guggenheim Fellow and a professor of English in the MFA program at UC Davis.    Annie:  Deb Olin-Unferth is the author of six books, including Barn 8, and her memoir, Revolution: The Year I Fell in Love and Went to Join the War, which was a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award. Deb is an associate professor in creative writing at the University of Texas at Austin. She founded and runs Pen City Writers, a two-year creative writing certificate program at Connally, a maximum security prison in southern Texas. For this work, she was awarded the 2017 Texas Governor's Criminal Justice Service Award.   Lito: (09:58) Annie and I thought this up a year ago, and we were talking about what is special about literary friendships and how writing gets made, not as we all think, totally solitary in our rooms alone, but we have conversations, at least I think this way. They're part of long conversations with our friends, our literary friends and living and dead, and you know, all times, in all times of history.   But the idea here is that we get to talk to our literary friends and people we admire and writers who are close friends with each other and friendships in which literature plays a large role.   Annie: (10:37) Yeah, and I'll just add that when we first floated the idea of this podcast, you know, your names came up immediately. We're so in awe of you as people and practitioners and literary citizens, and we love your literary friendship. I mean, I really hold it dear as one of the best that I know of personally.    Lucy, I think of you as, you know, this craftsperson of invention who's always trying to undo what's been done and who's such an amazing mentor to emerging writers. And Deb, you know, I'm always returning to your work to see the world in a new way, to see something I might have missed. And I just, I'm so moved by your generosity in your work and in your life's work with Penn City and elsewhere, which I'm sure we'll have a chance to talk more about.   Annie: (11:30) But I think I recall the first day I realized how close the two of you were when Deb told me that you all were taking a trip to the Sahara. And I was like, oh, of course, like, of course, they're going to have desert adventures together. Like, this makes so much sense. So I hope we'll, you know, we'll talk more about that too.    Annie (11:53) But we're so grateful to have you here and to have you in our lives. And we're going to ask you some questions to get to know a little bit more about you.    Deb:  Sounds great.    Lucy: Thanks.    Deb: It's great to be here. It's really great to see everybody.    Lito: Thank you so much for being here. Deb, will you tell us about Lucy?   Deb: (12:16) I mean, Lucy's just one of my very favorite people. And I feel like our friendship just started really slowly and just kind of grew over a period of many years. And some of the things that I love about Lucy is she is, well, of course, she's a brilliant genius writer. Like, I mean, no one writes weird like Lucy writes weird and no one writes like more emotionally, and more inventively and some of her books are some of my favorite books that have ever been written. Especially her last two books I think have just been such just major literary accomplishments and I just hold them so dear.    (13:05) And as a friend some things that I really love about her is that she will worry a problem with me that's just bugging me about like literary culture or about writing or about, you know, just it could be anything about aesthetics at all. And then she'll literally talk to me about it for like five or six days straight without stopping. Like we'll just constantly, dinner after dinner, like, you know, if we're on a trip together, just like all day, like I'll wake up in the morning and I'll be like, here's another piece of that pie. And then she'll say, oh, and I was thinking, and then we'll like go off and work and then we'll come back at lunch and be like, "and furthermore," you know? And by the end, I remember at one point we were doing this and she said, this is a very interesting essay you're writing. And of course, like it wasn't an essay at all, but it was just like a way of thinking about the way that we were talking.   (14:06) And then she is hilarious and delightful and just like so warm. I don't know, I just love her to pieces. She's just one of my favorite people in the whole world. I could say more, but I'll stop right there for a minute.    Annie: Lucy, tell us about Deb.    Lucy: (14:24) Yeah, I mean, Deb, I mean, the first thing, I mean, the first thing you'll notice is that Deb is sort of effortlessly enthusiastic about the things that she cares about. And that's at the core of the way that she moves through the world and the way that she encounters people and the way that she encounters books.   (14:44) I'm more reserved, so I'll just preface what I'm going to say by saying that like, my tone might not betray my true enthusiasms, but I'll try to list some of the things that I think are special and extraordinary about my friend Deb.   One is that there's this conversation that never stops between the way that she's thinking about her own work and the way that she's thinking about the state of the world and the way that she's thinking about the very specific encounters that she's having in daily life. And so like moving through a conversation with Deb or moving through a period of time with Deb in the world, those things are always in flux and in conversation. So it's a really wonderful mind space to be in, to be in her presence.   (15:35) The other thing is that she's like the most truly ethical person that I am close to and in the sense that like she thinks really hard about every move she makes.   The comparison I would make is like you know Deb is like at the core like, the first thing you might notice about Deb's work is that she's a stylist, that she works sentence by sentence and that she always does. But then the other thing she does is that she's always thinking hard about the world and the work, that it never stays purely a love of the sentence. The love of the sentence is part of the love of trying to understand the relationship between words and the world.    (16:15) And, and they're both an ethics. I think it's an ethics of aesthetics and an ethics of trying to be alive in as decent way as you can manage. And so those things feed into the friendship where she's one of the people who I know will tell me what she really thinks about something because we can have a baseline of trust where then you can talk about things that are either dangerous or you might have different ideas about things or you may have conflict.    (16:47) But because of my sense of who she is as a person, and also who she is with me, we can have challenging conversations about what's right about how to behave and what's right about how to write. And that also means that when the other parts of friendship, which are just like outside of literature, but always connected, which, you know, about your own, you know, your other friendships, your, the rest of your life, your job, your family, things like that, that you wanna talk about with your friends. Yeah, I don't know anybody better to sort through those things than Deb.    And it's in part because we're writers, and you can't separate out the questions that you're having about the other parts of your life from who you're trying to be as a writer. And that's always built into the conversation.   Annie: (17:40) I knew we asked you here for a reason.   Lito: We'll be right back.    Lito (17:58) Back to the show.    Annie: I'm hearing you, you know, you're both, you're sort of really seeing one another, which is really lovely. You know, you're, Deb, you're talking about Lucy wearing a problem with you, which I think conveys a kind of strength and... Of course, like I'm quite familiar with Deb's like strong moral anchors. I think we all are and truly respect, but I'm just wondering, what do you most admire about your friend? What do you think they give to the world in light of this portrait that you've given us?   Deb: (18:28) Lucy is a very careful thinker, and she's incredibly fair. And I've just seen her act, just behave that way and write that way for so many years and it just the quality of it always surprises me.  Like I mean, there was a writer, most recently there was a writer who's been cancelled, who we have spent an enormous amount of time talking about and trying to figure out just exactly what was going on there. And I felt like Lucy had insights into what had happened and what it was like on his end and what about his culture could have influenced what happened. Just all of these things that were.   (19:36.202) It was so insightful and I felt like there's no way that I could have moved that moved forward that many steps in my understanding of what had happened. And in my own like how I was going to approach what had happened. Like there's no way I could have done that without that just constant just really careful thought and really fair thought. Just like trying to deeply understand. Like Lucy has an emotional intelligence that is just completely unparalleled. That's one thing I really love about her.    Another thing is that she's like up for anything. Like when I asked her to go to the Sahara with me, I mean, she said yes in like, it was like not even 12 seconds. It was like 3 seconds, I think, that she was like, yeah.   Annie: You need a friend who is just gonna go to the Sahara.    Lucy: Deb, I don't even know if you actually invited me. The way I remember it is that you said something like, Lucy, no one will go to the Sahara with me. And I said, I would go to the Sahara with you.   Lito: That is lovely.   Lucy: (20:53) It's in Africa, right?    Lito:  Was there something specific about the Sahara that you need to go over for?   Deb:  Yeah, I mean, there was. It's a book I'm still working on, hopefully finishing soon. But it's mostly it's like...I just always wanted to go to the Sahara. My whole life, I wanted to go to Morocco, I wanted to go to the Sahara, I wanted to be surrounded by just sand and one line. You look in 360 degrees and you just see one line. I just wanted to see what that was like so badly, stripping everything out, coming down to just that one element of blue and beige. I just wanted that so much. And I wanted to know that it just went on and on and on and on.   (21:48) Yeah, and you know, people talk a big talk, but most people would not go. And so at one point I was just kind of rallying, asking everyone. And then Lucy happened to be in town and I just mentioned to her that this is happening. And then she said, yeah, and then we went for like a long time. Like we went to Morocco for like over three weeks. Like we went for like a month.    Lucy:  A month.    Deb: Yeah, crazy. But she's always like that. Like whatever I want to do, she's just up for it. I mean, and she called me up and she's like, hey, we want to come to Austin and like, go to this place that's two hours from Austin where you can see five million bats, right? Five million bats? Or was it more? Was it like 20 million?    Lucy:  That's right.    Deb: It was like 20 million bats and a lot of them are baby bats. It's like mama bats and baby bats.     Lucy: Yeah, like it's more when there's the babies.   Deb: (22:46) And yeah, and you were like, I want to come with them as the babies. Yeah, we like went and she just like came and Andrea came, and it was just absolutely beautiful.    Lucy: Well, you were just right for that adventure. I knew you would want to see some bats.    Lucy: Well, I could I could say a couple of more things about what Deb gives the world.    Annie: Sure. Love it.    Lucy: So some of the things that Deb gives the world and though when I listen to you talking about me, I realized why these things are so important to me, is that you have a very steady sense of who you are and a kind of confidence in your instincts. That I know that some of the ways that I worry things through are really productive and some of them are just an ability to see why I could be wrong all the time, and that can stymie me.    (23:48) And one of the things that I love about you and the model that you provide for me in my life is an ability to understand what your truth is and not be afraid to hold onto it while you're thinking about other people's perspectives, that you're able to really tell the difference between the way that other people think about things and the way that you do.   And it doesn't mean that you don't rethink things, you constantly are, but when you have a conviction, you don't have a problem with having a conviction. And I admire it enormously. And I think it allows you to have a kind of openness to the world and an openness to people who are various and different and will challenge you and will show you new things because you have that sense that you're not gonna lose yourself in the wind.    Deb: Mmm. That's really nice.   Lito: I am in awe of everything you've said about each other. And it makes me think about how you first met each other. Can you tell us that story? And why did you keep coming back? What was the person like when you first met? And why did you keep coming back to each other? Do you want to tell Lucy?     Lucy: Yeah, I'll start and you can add what I'm missing and... (25:06) tell a different origin story if you want. But I think that what we might've come to for our origin story is that it was one of the, one of the early &Now Festivals. And the &Now Festival is really great.   Lito: Could you say what that is? Yeah, say a little bit about what that is.   Luch: Oh, it's a literary conference that was started to focus on small press and more innovative—is the term that they used at the time anyhow—innovative writing as a kind of response to the market-driven culture of AWP and to try to get people who are working more experimentally or more like on the edge of literary culture less mainstream and give them a place to come together and have conversations about writing and share their work.   So it was one of the early ones of those. But I think it was, I think we figured out that there were like, yeah, there were three women. It was me, you, and Shelley Jackson. But it was, there were not that many women at this conference at the time. And we were, and I think we were noting, noting our solidarity. Yeah. And that, that's what. That's like some of the first images.   But I knew we were like aware of each other because in some ways we have tended to be up for the same jobs—Deb gets them—up for the same prizes—Deb gets them first, I'll get them later. And so I see her as somebody who's traveling through the literary world in ways that are... I mean, we're very different writers, but as people... You know what I mean? But I still... We still actually...come from a lot of the same literary roots. And so it makes sense that there's something of each other in the work that makes us appeal to overlapping parts of the literary world.   Deb: Yeah, I definitely think that there was in our origins, not only do we come from the same sort of influences, and just things that we admired and stuff, but I also feel like (27:28.018) a lot of our early work would have appealed more easily to the exact same people. As we've gotten older, our work isn't quite as similar. We're a little more different than we used to be. But there's still enough there that, you know, you can see a lot of the same people admiring or liking it.   But I was remembering that first time that we met, you playing pool. And we were, so we were like at a bar and you were like, and you were playing pool, and you had like just had a book out with FSG, I think, or something. I don't know if I even had—   Lucy: FC2. Very different.   Deb: FC2. That's right. FC2. And the FC2 editor was there. And I don't think I even had a book out. I don't remember what year this was. But I don't think I had any kind of book out. All I had was I had nothing, you know. And I was just so in awe of FC2 and the editor there, and you there, and like you could play pool, and I can't play pool at all. And it was just, it was—   Annie: Lucy's so cool. Yeah, she was cool. She was cool. And Shelly Jackson was cool. And it was like all the cool people were there and I got to be there, and it was great.   And then, yeah, and then I think how it continued, I don't know how it continued, we just kind of kept running into each other and just slowly it built up into a really deep friendship. Like at some point you would come through town and stay with me.   (29:25.782) And we moved, we both moved around a lot. So for a while there, so we kind of kept running into each other in different places. We've never lived in the same place.   Lucy: No, never.   Lito: How have you managed that then? Is it always phone or is it texting, phone calls?   Lucy: Well, we'll go through a spate of  texting.   Deb: Yeah, we do both. I think I like to talk on the phone.   Lucy: Yeah, I will talk on the phone for Deb.   Annie: The mark of a true friendship.   Lito: (30:01) Time for a break.   Annie Lito (30:12.43) We're talking with Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth.   Lito: How has literature shaped your friendship then? Despite being cool. What kind of books, movies, art do you love to discuss? You can name names. What do you love talking about?   Deb: Well, I remember the moment with Donald Barthelme.   Lucy: That was what I was gonna say.   Deb: No, you go ahead.   Lucy: Well, why don't?   Deb: Oh, okay, you can tell it.   Lucy: I mean, I'll tell part and then you can tell part. It's not that elaborate, but we were, one of the things that Deb and I do is find a pretty place, rent a space, and go work together. And one time we were doing that in Mendocino and Deb was in the late stages of drafting Barn 8 and really thinking about the ancient chickens and the chickens in an ancient space. And we went for a walk in one of those very ferny forests, and Deb was thinking about the chickens and among the giant ferns. And I don't know how it happened, but Deb said something with a rhythm. And we both said to each other the exact line from Donald Barthelme's "The School" that has that rhythm.   (31:34) Is that how you remember it though? You have to tell me if that's how you remember it.   Deb: That's exactly how I remember it. Yeah. And then we like said a few more lines. Like we knew even...    Lito: You remember the line now?   Lucy: I mean, I don't... You do. If you said it, I could do it. I'm just... I was thinking before this, I'm like, oh God, I should go look up the line because I'm not going to get it right, like under pressure. It was just in the moment. It came so naturally.   Deb: It was one of those lines that goes... (32:03) Da da da-da da, da da da-da-da. There's a little parenthetical, it's not really in parentheses in the story, but it might be a little dash mark. But it has, it's something like, "I told them that they should not be afraid, although I am often afraid." I think it was that one.   Deb: I am often afraid. Yeah. And then it was like, we just both remembered a whole bunch of lines like from the end, because the ending of that story is so amazing. And it's, so the fact that we had both unconsciously memorized it and could just like.   And it was something about just like walking under those giant trees and having this weekend together. And like we're like marching along, like calling out lines from Donald Barthelme. And it just felt really like pure and deep.   Annie: It's I mean, I can't imagine anything sounding more like true love than spontaneously reciting a line in unison from Barthelme. And, you know, you both are talking about how your work really converged at the start and that there are some new divergences and I think of you both as so distinct you know on and off the page. There's like the ferociousness of the pros and an eye towards cultural criticism and I always think of you as writing ahead of your time. So I'm just wondering how would you describe your lit friends work to someone, and is there something even after all this time that surprises you about their writing or their voice?   Lucy: I mean, what surprised me recently about Deb's voice is its elasticity. I came to love the work through the short stories and the micros. And those have such a distinct, wry kind of distance. They sort of float a little separate from the world, and they float a little separate from the page.   (34:10) And they have a kind of, they have a very distinct attitude and tone, even if the pieces are different from each other, like as a unit. And that's just really different than the voice that you get in a book like Barn 8 that moves through a lot of different narrators, but that also has just a softer relationship with the world. Like it's a little more blends with the world as you know, it doesn't stay as distant. And I didn't know that until later.   Vacation is also really stark and sort of like has that distinctiveness from the world. And so watching Deb move into, you know, in some ways like just more realistic, more realistic writing that's still voice-centered and that still is music centered was a recent surprising thing for me.   But I'm also really excited about what I've read in the book that in the new book because I think that new book is sort of the pieces that the bits that I've read from it are they're marking a territory that's sort of right down the middle of the aesthetic poles that Deb's work has already hit I mean the other thing is that you know Deb does all the genres. All of the prose genres. Every book sort of is taking on it is taking on a genre And the next one is doing that too, but with content in a way that others have been taking on new genres and form. And so...    Lito: I love that. And I like that it's related to the music of the pros and sound. I feel like musicians do that a lot, right? There's some musicians that every album is a new genre or totally different sound. And then there's artists who do the same thing over and over again. We love both those things. Sorry, so Deb...   Deb: So I love how complicated Lucy can get with just an image or an idea. I just feel like no one can do it the way that she can do it. And my like her last in her last book, which I love so much, we're just brought through all these different places and each one is sort of (36:31.29) dragging behind it, everything that came before, so that you can just feel all of this like, pressure of like the past and of the situations and like even like a word will resonate. Like you'll bring like, there's like a word on maybe page like 82 that you encountered on like page 20 that like the word meant so much on page 20 that it like really, you can really feel its power when it comes on page 80.   And you feel the constant like shifting of meaning and just like the way that the prose is bringing so much more and like it's like reinterpreting that word again and again and again, just like the deeper that you go, like whatever the word is be it you know house or home or stair or um you know sex, whatever it is, it's like constantly shifting. (37:40.952) And that's just part of like who Lucy is, is this like worrying of a problem or worrying of a word and like carrying it forward. And so yeah, so like in that last book, it just was such a big accomplishment. And I felt like it was like her best work yet.   Lucy: So I will say, try and say something a little bit more specific, then. (38:09) Like I guess in the sort of 10 stories that I teach as often as possible in part because I get bored so easily that I need to teach stories that I can return to that often and still feel like I'm reading something that is new to me is the title story from Wait Till You See Me Dance and that story is a really amazing combination of methodical in its execution, which sounds really dull.   But what it does is sort of toss one ball in the air and then toss another ball in the air and then toss another ball in the air. And then, you know, the balls move, but you know, the balls are brightly colored and they're handled by a master juggler. So it's methodical, but it's joyful and hilarious. And then, and then, and you don't   And the other thing is that Deb's narrators are wicked and like they're wicked in the way that like… They are, they're willing to do and say the things that you secretly wish somebody would do and say. That's the same way that like, you know, in the great existential novels, you love and also worry about the protagonists, right? They're troubled, but their trouble allows them to speak truthfully because they can't help it. Or they can't help it when they're in the space of the short story. It's that like, you know, the stories are able to access—a story like this one and like many of Deb's—are able to access that really special space of narrator, of narration, where you get to speak, you get to speak in a whisper.   Annie: You get to speak in a whisper. That's beautiful, Lucy. You get to speak in a whisper.   Lito: We'll be right back.   Lito: (40:15) Welcome back.   Annie: I'm wondering about what this means, you know, how this crosses over to your own personal lives, right? Because of course, literary friendships, we're thinking about the work all of the time. But we're also, you know, when I think of my literary friendship with Lito, I think of him as like a compatriot and somebody who's really carrying me through the world sometimes. I'm wondering if there was for either of you, a hard time that you went through personally, professionally, you know, whether it's about publishing or just getting words on the page or something, you know, um, you know, family related or whatever, where you, um, you know, what it meant to have a literary friend nearby at that time.   Lucy: I mean that's the heart of it.   Deb: Yeah, I mean for sure.   Lucy: One happened last week and I'm sort of still in the middle of it where you know my literary mentor is aging and struggling and so that's painful for me and who gets that? Deb gets that.   The other one, the other big one for me was that the release of my last novel was really complicated. And it brought up a lot of, it intersected with a lot of the things going on in my family that are challenging and a lot of things that are going on in the literary world that are challenging. There were parts of that release that were really satisfying and joyful, and there were parts of it that were just devastatingly painful for me.   And, you know, Deb really helped me find my way through that. And it was a lot, like it was a lot of emotional contact and a lot of thinking through things really hard and a lot of being like, "wait, why do we do this? But remember, why do we do this?" And Deb was the person who could say, "no, you're a novelist." Like things that like I was doubting, Deb could tell me. And the other thing is that I would come closer to being able to believe those things because she could tell them to me.   Annie: Lucy, can you talk a little more about that? Like what did that? (42:27.126) What did that look like, right? Like you talked about resistance to phone calls, and you're not in the same place.   Lucy: It was phone. Right, it would be phone or it would be Zoom or it would be texting. And then, you know, when we would see each other that would be, we would reflect on those times in person even though that wasn't those immediate moments of support and coaching and, you know, wisdom.   Annie:  And that requires a kind of vulnerability, I think, that is hard to do in this industry, right? And I'm just wondering if that was new for you or if that was special to this friendship, right? Or like what allowed for that kind of openness on your part to be able to connect with Deb in that way?   Lucy: I mean, I think I was just really lucky that we've had, like even though we have really, I think, only noticed that we were close since that Morocco trip. Like that was a little bit of a leap of faith. Like, "oh my gosh, how well do I know this person and we're gonna travel together in like circumstances, and do we really know each other this way?" But the combination of the years that we've known each other in more of a warm acquaintance, occasional, great conversation kind of way towards being somebody that you, that you trust and believe and that you have that stuff built in.   And, you know, that over the years you've seen the choices that they've made in the literary world, the choices they've made in their career, when they, you know, everything from, you know, supporting, you know, being a small, being small press identified and championing certain kinds of books over other kinds of books. And like those, just like watching a person make choices for art that you think are in line with the writer that, watching her make choices in art that are in line with the writer that I wanna be in the world makes it so that when you come to something that is frightening, that's the kind of person you wanna talk to because she's done that thinking.   Deb: Yeah, I mean, I feel like there are like so many things that I could say about that. Like one thing is that the kind of time that I spend with Lucy is really different from the kind of time that I spend with most people. Like most people, (44:51) they come to town and I have dinner with them. Or I go to like AWP or whatever and we go out for dinner. Or maybe I spend like one night at their house like with their partner and kid or something, you know. But Lucy and I, we get together and we spend like four days or something all alone, just the two of us, you know, or a month or whatever. And we don't spend a ton of time with other people. And so there's, but then we also do that, but just like not very much.   And so there is something that just creates, like that's a really good mode for me. It's a, that's like the way that I make really deep friendships that are kind of like forever-people in my life. And I've always been like that. And so, but not a lot of people are willing to sort of do that with me. Like, I have so many acquaintances, I've got like a million, I feel like I could have dinner with someone just about any night, as long as it's only like once every few months or something, you know, but I don't have people who are willing to be this close to me, like spend that kind of time with me one-on-one. And the fact is like, they're not that many people that I really feel like doing that with.   And you know, every time Lucy and I do one of these, I just come away feeling like I thought about some really important things and I talked about some really important things and I saw some beautiful things because Lucy always makes sure that we're somewhere where we can see a lot of beauty. And so that just means so much to me. And it's like, and so for me it creates like a space where, Yeah, I can be honest and vulnerable, and I can also tell her, if I can tell her things that I don't tell other people, or I can be really honest with her if I feel like, if I'm giving her advice about something, I can just be honest about it. And so it's really, really nice.   (47:07) I mean, the other thing is like, we're so similar. Like we've made so many similar life choices. And we've talked about that. Lucy and I have talked about that. Like, you know, we both chose not to have kids. We live pretty, like we're both like kind of loners, even though we have partners. Like I think our partners are more like, they just kind of would, they would prefer that we.   I don't know, I shouldn't probably say anything, but I know that Matt would prefer if I was not quite as much of a loner as I am. Yeah, so I look at Lucy and I see the kind of person that I am, the kind of person I wanna be, so if I have a question, I mean, it happens.   Lucy mentioned a couple of things. I have... You know, she's had some pretty major, major things. I have like little things that happen all the time, and they just like bring me to tears.   Like there was this one moment during the pandemic when I was like driving across the country by myself. I was like in Marfa, and I was trying to get to California and I had like a toilet in the back seat. Remember when we were all doing that kind of thing?   Lucy: It was really amazing.   Deb: It was so crazy.   Lucy: But Deb, not everybody had a toilet in their back seat.   Annie: I know. I need that now.   Deb: It still comes in handy.   Annie: I'm sure.   Deb: (48:43) And I was in, and yeah, Lucy is amazing. She'll talk to me on the phone, but Lucy will do because I love to talk on the phone and I love to Zoom. Lucy does not. So she'll tell me in advance, okay, I will talk to you, but it's gonna be for like 20 minutes or I'm gonna have to get off like pretty soon.   But she Zoomed with me and Marfa and I just didn't realize how upset I was about this one rejection that I'd gotten. And it was a really small rejection, I don't know why it bothered me so much, but I just like started crying and like I was like way out in like so many miles from any so many hours from anyone I knew and you know the world was going to shit, and I'd gotten this like tiny rejection from a magazine like a little like I had it was the page was it was like a piece that was like a page long or something, and Lucy just like knew exactly why I I was so upset, and just was able to talk to me about what that meant to me. And just refocus me to like, "look, you don't have to write those. You don't have to be that writer. You don't have to do that." And it was so freeing to know that I didn't always have to be, I don't even know how to describe it, but it was meant a lot. And things like that happen all the time.   Annie: (50:15.265) That's such a wonderful model of mutual support.   Lucy: We'll be right back.   Annie: Hi Lit Fam. We hope you're enjoying our conversation with Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth, and their love for the word, the world, and each other. If you love what we're doing here at LitFriends, please take a moment now  to follow, subscribe, rate, and review our podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few minutes of your time will help us so much to continue to bring you great conversations like this week after week.  Thank you for listening. Back to a conversation with Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth.     Annie: I'm also aware that we're working in an industry that's a zero-sum construct. And, you know, Lucy, you were sort of joking earlier about... Deb winning all of the awards that you later got. But I am curious, like, what about competition between literary friends when we're living in a world with basically shrinking resources?   Lucy: I feel competition, but I don't really feel it with my literary friends. Does that make sense? Like, I'll feel it with my idea of somebody that I don't really know except for their literary profile, right? But when someone like Deb gets something, it makes the world seem right and true, right? And so that's not hard to bear, right? That's just a sign of a good thing in a world that you're afraid isn't so good.   Deb: I guess I feel like if Lucy gets something, then that raises the chances that I'm gonna get something. I'm gonna get the same thing. Because if we're kind of in the same, like we both published with Grey Wolf, we both have the same editor, so we've multiple times that we've been on these trips, we've both been working on books that were supposed to come out with Graywolf with Ethan. (52:16.3) You know, so I feel like if Lucy gets something, then the chances go up.   Like there was just, something just happened recently where Lucy was telling me that she had a little, like a column coming out with The Believer. And I was like, "oh my God, I didn't even know that they were back." I'm like, "man, I really wanna be in The Believer. Like, I can't believe like, you know, they're back and I'm not in them. I gotta be in it. I said that to Lucy on the phone. And then, like the very next day, Rita wrote me and said, "Hey, do you want to write something?"   And so I wrote to Lucy immediately. I was like, did you write to Rita? And she was like, "no, I really didn't." So it's like, we're in the same— Did you, Lucy?   Lucy: No, I didn't! Rita did that all by herself.   Lito: You put it out into the universe, Deb.   Annie: Lucy did it. Hot cut, Lucy did it!   Deb:  So we're like, we're like in the same, I feel a lot of the time like we're kind of in the same lane and so that really helps because like, I do have writer friends who are not in the same lane as me and maybe. Like I'm not as close, but maybe that would be, but if I was as close, maybe that would cause me more confusion. Like I would be like, you know, "geez, how can I get that too? Or it's hopeless, I'll never get that, you know? So I just don't do that thing," or something. So that's really comforting.   Lito: What are your obsessions?   Lucy: Well, I mean-   Lito: How do they show up on the page?   Lucy: I feel like it's so obvious with Deb that like, you know, Deb got obsessed with chickens, and there was a whole bunch of stuff about chickens. First there was a really smart, brilliant Harper's essay where she learned her stuff. And then there was the novel where she, you know, imagined out the chickens (54:19) to touch on everything, right?   Annie: Then there was a chicken a thousand years in advance.   Lucy: Right, and then there's a beautiful chicken art in the house, and there's, you know. And I'm sure that she's gotten way more chicken gifts than she knows what to do with. But then the Sahara, like, you know, she was obsessed with the Sahara and you'll see it in the next book. It's gonna be— It's not gonna be in a literal way, right? But it'll be like, you'll feel the sand, you'll feel that landscape.   So I don't know, like I feel like the obsessions show up in the books. I mean, are there, I mean, this is a question like, Deb, do you think you have obsessions that don't show up in your work? We both have really cute little black dogs.   Deb: (55:07) Oh, not really. I mean, but I do get obsessed. Like I just get so, so like obsessed in an unhealthy way. And then I just have to wait it out. I just have to like wait until I'm not obsessed anymore. And it's like an ongoing just I'm like, OK, here it comes. It's like sleeping over me. Like how many years of my life is going to be are going to be gone as a result of this?   So I'm always like so relieved when I'm not in that space. Like Lucy's obsession comes down to that, with her language, that she's like exploring one idea, like she'll take an idea and she like worries that over the course of a whole book and that she'll just it's like almost like a cubist approach. She'll be like approaching it from so many different standpoints. And that is like, I mean, Lucy is so smart and the way that she does that is just so genius. And so I feel like that's the thing that really keeps drawing me to her obsessions, that keeps bringing me back to that page to read her work again and again. And yeah, and that's how she is in person too.   Lito: Why do you write? What does it do for the world, if anything?   Lucy: (56:37) I know I had a little tiny throat clear, but I think it was because I'm still trying to figure it out because I feel like the answer is different in this world order than it was in earlier world orders. Like when I first answered those questions for myself when I was deciding to make these big life choices and say, "you know, fuck everything except for writing," like I was answering, I was answering that question a different way than I would now, but I don't quite have it to spit out right now, except that I do think it has something to do with a place where the world can be saved. Like, writing now is a place of respite from the rest of the world where you can still have all of these things that I always assumed were widely valued, that feel more and more narrowly valued. And so I write to be able to have that in my life and to be able to connect with the other people who share those kinds of values that are about careful thinking, that are about the glory of the imagination, that are about the sanctity of people having made things.   Annie: Lucy, I need that on my wall. I just need to hear that every day.   Deb: I mean, I feel like if I can think about it in terms of my reading life, that like art changes my mind all the time. Like that's the thing that teaches me. Like I remember when I was a kid, and I lived right near the Art Institute of Chicago, and I remember going in, and they had the Jacob Lawrence immigration panels, migration panels up there that was like a traveling exhibition. And I had none of that information. I did not know about the Great Migration. I just didn't know any of that. So I just remember walking from panel to panel and reading and studying it, (58:47.952) reading it and studying it and just like getting like just getting just it was like a It was such a revelation and I just learned so much and like changed my mind about so many things just in that moment that it was like I'll never forget that.   And I feel like I, I totally agree with Lucy that the reasons that I write now and the reasons that I read now are very different than they were like before, say 2015, or something. But that, that maybe it has its roots in that sort of Jacob Lawrence moment where, you know, just I read these things and it's, I like, I love sinking deep into books that are really changing my mind and like teaching me about the world in ways that I never could have imagined, and I love that so much and I… I don't know if I have that to offer, but I really try hard, you know. Like I tried that with the chicken book. I'm kind of trying that, I hope, in this book that I'm trying to finish and— ha finish!—that I'm trying to get through. And so I think that that's why I think that art is so important.   I don't know if that's truly why I write though. I feel like why I write is that I've always written, and it's like I love it so much. Like I just, sometimes I hate it, sometimes I hate it for like a whole year or whatever, but it's just, it's so much a core of who I am. (01:00:39) And I just, I can't imagine my life any other way. It's just it's just absolutely urgent to me.   Annie: Yeah, urgent. Yeah. I think we all feel that in some way.   Annie:(01:01:04.374) Thank you both for talking to us a little bit about your friendship and getting to know a little bit more about how you started and where you're at now. We're going to move into the lightning round.   Lito: Ooooo Lightning round.   Annie: (01:01:16) Deb, who were you in seventh grade? Who was I in seventh grade? In one sentence, oh my God, the pressure is on. I was unpopular and looked, my hair was exactly the same as it is now. And I wore very similar clothes.   Lucy: (01:01:44) I was a peer counselor, and so I was like the Don who held everybody's secrets.   Lito: Beautiful. Lucy.   Lucy: It saved me. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had a place in that world.   Annie: Makes so much sense.   Lito: Wow. Who or what broke your heart first, deepest?   Lucy: I mean, I would just say my mom.   Deb: I guess, then I have to say my dad.   Annie: Okay, which book is a good lit friend to you?   Deb: Can I say two? The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas by Gertrude Stein and The Known World by Edward P. Jones.   Annie: Excellent.   Lucy: My go-to is White Noise. Still. Sorry.   Lito: No need to apologize.   Lucy: Yep.   Annie Lito (01:02:27) Who would you want to be lit friends with from any point in history?   Lucy: For me it's Jane Bowles.   Deb: Oh, whoa. Good one. She would be maybe a little difficult. I was gonna say Gertrude Stein, then I was like, actually, she'd be a little difficult.   Lucy: What a jerk!   Deb: I think Zora Neale Hurston would be fun.   Lucy: Well, yeah, of course. For sure.   Annie: We were gonna ask who your lit frenemy from any time might be, but maybe you've already said.   Lucy: Oh, right. I accidentally said my lit frenemy instead of my lit friend.   Annie: Yeah.   Lucy: Mm-hmm.   Deb: (01:03:08) A frenemy from any time?   Annie: Any time. Yeah, it doesn't have to be Jonathan Franzen. I feel like most people will just be like Jonathan Franzen. But it could be any time in history.   Deb: I mean, if you're gonna go that route, then it would probably be, um, like...   Lito: Kierkegaard.   Deb: I don't know, maybe Nietzsche? If you're gonna go that route, if you're gonna go like, like existential philosophers.   Annie: (01:03:34) That's great.   Lito: That could be a podcast too.   Annie: Just like epic frenemy. The most epic frenemy.   Lito: (01:03:35)  Well, that's our show.   Annie & Lito: Thanks for listening.   Annie: We'll be back next week with our guests Melissa Febos and Donika Kelly.    Lito: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendspodcasts   Annie: And tell us about an adventure you've had with your Lit bestie. I'm Annie Liontas.   Lito: And I'm Lito Velazquez.   Annie: Thanks to our production squad. Our show was edited by Justin Hamilton.   Lito: Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.   Annie: Lisette Saldaña is our Marketing Director.   Lito: Our theme song was written and produced by Roberto Moresca.   Annie: And special thanks to our show producer Toula Nuñez.   Lito: This was Lit Friends, Episode 2.

You can also check out this episode on Spotify!Juneteenth is a celebration of freedom and liberation. I can't think of a better person to speak to the importance of self-expression, autonomy, and living without oppression than Nedra Glover Tawwab.Nedra is a practicing therapist, relationship expert, and two-time bestselling author. She understands that health begins with individual freedom—and that healthy relationships require supporting each other's freedom, growth, and self-identity while maintaining mutual respect and healthy boundaries. Her books, Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself and Drama Free are born out of her philosophy that a lack of boundaries and assertiveness underlie most relationship issues. Today, Nedra sits down with me to discuss the physical and emotional health consequences of relationship drama—and the importance of self-awareness and acceptance in order to have agency over our life and health.I hope you enjoy this very special podcast episode. Listen above!

Welcome to 83 Weeks #249 with Eric Bischoff! In this podcast, Eric discusses his recent trip to Las Vegas, shares his thoughts on whether wrestling can work on a streaming network, and talks about why he is DONE responding to Ric Flair In the main topic of the episode, Eric dives into the WCW Power Plant, discussing the fast count and his own experiences visiting the facility. He talks about the process of recruiting talent, the cast of trainers, and whether the facility was capable of producing a good finished product. Eric also shares stories about Ole Anderson, DDP, and Goldberg's training at the Power Plant. Later in the episode, Eric discusses the possibility of Bret Hart having CTE and the physical requirements for training at the WCW Power Plant. He also addresses the claim that the Power Plant needed its own local promotion and shares Jim Cornette's thoughts on the facility. Eric wraps up the episode by sharing his vision for a Las Vegas Power Plant under the new WCW and whether the Power Plant was too "hard-nosed." Tune in next week for the rise of Eric Bischoff! MANSCAPED-Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code 83WEEKS at www.Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit. EMBARK-Right now, Embark has a limited-time offer on their Breed and Health Kit and Purebred Kit for 83 Weeks listeners! Go to Embarkvet.com to get free shipping and save $65 with promo code 83WEEKS. Visit www.Embarkvet.com and use promo code 83WEEKS to save $65 today. LUCY-So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code 83WEEKS at checkout--and shipping is always free. ROCKET MONEY-Get rid of useless subscriptions with Rocket Money now. Go to www.ROCKETMONEY.COM/83WEEKS. Seriously, it could save you HUNDREDS per year. Cancel your unnecessary subscriptions right now at www.ROCKETMONEY.COM/83WEEKS. FANSLY-Go to fansly.com/promo/83WEEKS for a FREE extended trial subscription to one of our favorite content creators. Just use code 83WEEKS at checkout. All the content on Fansly.com - Who knows what you'll find? Feet pics? Your neighbor Jenna? Feet pics FROM your neighbor Jenna? Again that is fansly.com/promo/83WEEKS and promo code 83WEEKS. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to 83 Weeks #249 with Eric Bischoff! In this podcast, Eric discusses his recent trip to Las Vegas, shares his thoughts on whether wrestling can work on a streaming network, and talks about why he is DONE responding to Ric Flair In the main topic of the episode, Eric dives into the WCW Power Plant, discussing the fast count and his own experiences visiting the facility. He talks about the process of recruiting talent, the cast of trainers, and whether the facility was capable of producing a good finished product. Eric also shares stories about Ole Anderson, DDP, and Goldberg's training at the Power Plant. Later in the episode, Eric discusses the possibility of Bret Hart having CTE and the physical requirements for training at the WCW Power Plant. He also addresses the claim that the Power Plant needed its own local promotion and shares Jim Cornette's thoughts on the facility. Eric wraps up the episode by sharing his vision for a Las Vegas Power Plant under the new WCW and whether the Power Plant was too "hard-nosed." Tune in next week for the rise of Eric Bischoff! MANSCAPED-Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code 83WEEKS at www.Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit. EMBARK-Right now, Embark has a limited-time offer on their Breed and Health Kit and Purebred Kit for 83 Weeks listeners! Go to Embarkvet.com to get free shipping and save $65 with promo code 83WEEKS. Visit www.Embarkvet.com and use promo code 83WEEKS to save $65 today. LUCY-So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code 83WEEKS at checkout--and shipping is always free. ROCKET MONEY-Get rid of useless subscriptions with Rocket Money now. Go to www.ROCKETMONEY.COM/83WEEKS. Seriously, it could save you HUNDREDS per year. Cancel your unnecessary subscriptions right now at www.ROCKETMONEY.COM/83WEEKS. FANSLY-Go to fansly.com/promo/83WEEKS for a FREE extended trial subscription to one of our favorite content creators. Just use code 83WEEKS at checkout. All the content on Fansly.com - Who knows what you'll find? Feet pics? Your neighbor Jenna? Feet pics FROM your neighbor Jenna? Again that is fansly.com/promo/83WEEKS and promo code 83WEEKS. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode of Grilling JR, JR and Conrad JR go back 25 years to discuss the fallout from the Montreal Screwjob, contract negotiations with the Hart family, Ken Shamrock's ascension to a top babyface, and the rise of The Rock against Stone Cold. Plus, the first Light Heavyweight Champion is crowned between Brian Christopher & Taka Michinoku, Butterbean is back taking on Marc Mero, the Outlaws defend the Tag Team Titles against LOD, Sgt. Slaughter in a boot camp match against Triple H, Jeff Jarrett takes on Undertaker, HBK takes on Shamrock, and Owen Hart returns! MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code JIMROSS at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit.  LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code JR at checkout--and shipping is always free.  JIMMY'S FAMOUS SEAFOOD - Tis the season for some seafood!!! It's not too late for you to grab that special someone the best gift this year! Several packages that make great holiday gifts, such as The Famous Gift Box which includes 4 of the Worlds Best Colossal Maryland Crab Cakes, 2 different crab soups, crab dip, seafood seasoning and their Signature Bay Sauce or the Tailgate Bundle with 2 pounds of wings, a full rack of bbq ribs, a pint of crab dip and Crab Cake Mix .. or create your own package. Go to JimmysFamousSeafood.com and get Free 2-day nationwide shipping on orders over $125 (excluding steamed crabs and fresh items) just use the promo code: JIMROSS ATHLETIC GREENS - To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D & 5 FREE travel packs with your 1st purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/JR to take ownership over your health and pick up the ulimate daily nutritional insurance! WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  GRILLINGJRONYOUTUBE.COM - Enjoy the whole episode or watch quick clips that will give you just the right helping of JR to get your day going. LIKE, SUBSCRIBE and hit that NOTIFICATION bell so you don't miss a moment of everything going on over at GrillingJROnYouTube.com GRILLINGJRTEES.COM - Love the show? Well, let everyone know that "The Voice Of Professional Wrestling" is your guy with cool shirts and merchandise over at GrillingJRTees.com Have a RED ASS holiday season with JR's brand new "Red Ass" hot sauce! Grab your hot sauce, bbq sauce, beef jerky, chipotle ketchup and some much more over at www.jrsbbq.com Find everything you want to know about the show and our hosts over at www.grillingjr.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of Grilling JR, JR and Conrad JR go back 25 years to discuss the fallout from the Montreal Screwjob, contract negotiations with the Hart family, Ken Shamrock's ascension to a top babyface, and the rise of The Rock against Stone Cold. Plus, the first Light Heavyweight Champion is crowned between Brian Christopher & Taka Michinoku, Butterbean is back taking on Marc Mero, the Outlaws defend the Tag Team Titles against LOD, Sgt. Slaughter in a boot camp match against Triple H, Jeff Jarrett takes on Undertaker, HBK takes on Shamrock, and Owen Hart returns! MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code JIMROSS at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit.  LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code JR at checkout--and shipping is always free.  JIMMY'S FAMOUS SEAFOOD - Tis the season for some seafood!!! It's not too late for you to grab that special someone the best gift this year! Several packages that make great holiday gifts, such as The Famous Gift Box which includes 4 of the Worlds Best Colossal Maryland Crab Cakes, 2 different crab soups, crab dip, seafood seasoning and their Signature Bay Sauce or the Tailgate Bundle with 2 pounds of wings, a full rack of bbq ribs, a pint of crab dip and Crab Cake Mix .. or create your own package. Go to JimmysFamousSeafood.com and get Free 2-day nationwide shipping on orders over $125 (excluding steamed crabs and fresh items) just use the promo code: JIMROSS ATHLETIC GREENS - To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D & 5 FREE travel packs with your 1st purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/JR to take ownership over your health and pick up the ulimate daily nutritional insurance! WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  GRILLINGJRONYOUTUBE.COM - Enjoy the whole episode or watch quick clips that will give you just the right helping of JR to get your day going. LIKE, SUBSCRIBE and hit that NOTIFICATION bell so you don't miss a moment of everything going on over at GrillingJROnYouTube.com GRILLINGJRTEES.COM - Love the show? Well, let everyone know that "The Voice Of Professional Wrestling" is your guy with cool shirts and merchandise over at GrillingJRTees.com Have a RED ASS holiday season with JR's brand new "Red Ass" hot sauce! Grab your hot sauce, bbq sauce, beef jerky, chipotle ketchup and some much more over at www.jrsbbq.com Find everything you want to know about the show and our hosts over at www.grillingjr.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode of WHW, Tony and Conrad will look back 25 years at the debut of Bret Hart in WCW! Plus, Disco Inferno defends the TV title against Yuji Nagata, Fit Finlay vs. Dean Malenko, La Parka & Psychosis vs. Rey Misterio & Juventud Guerrera, Arn Anderson and Ric Flair cut a promo, Scott Hall vs. Chris Jericho, Scott Norton & Konnan take on The Steiner Brothers, Booker T vs. Randy Savage, Buff Bagwell vs. Lex Luger, Ric Flair vs. Curt Hennig, and STIIIIIINNNNNGGGGG! Support us on Patreon, get this show early and ad free, plus TONS of BONUS content: patreon.com/WHWMonday Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/WHWMonday Check out all the new cool merchandise at BoxOfGimmicks.com Buy a shirt at https://www.prowrestlingtees.com/whw Subscribe to our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSAys3yHQjH5n8y082xgHNg MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code WHW at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit.  LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--and shipping is always free.  CHILISLEEP - Head over to sleep.me/WHW to learn more and save 25% off the purchase of any new Dock Pro, Cube, or OOLER Sleep System. This offer is available exclusively for What Happened When listeners -- and only for a limited time! BLUECHEW - Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That's BlueChew.com, promo code WHW to receive your first month FREE WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - Don't put Christmas on a credit card! Go to savewithconrad.com and let us help you put some cash back in your pockets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of WHW, Tony and Conrad will look back 25 years at the debut of Bret Hart in WCW! Plus, Disco Inferno defends the TV title against Yuji Nagata, Fit Finlay vs. Dean Malenko, La Parka & Psychosis vs. Rey Misterio & Juventud Guerrera, Arn Anderson and Ric Flair cut a promo, Scott Hall vs. Chris Jericho, Scott Norton & Konnan take on The Steiner Brothers, Booker T vs. Randy Savage, Buff Bagwell vs. Lex Luger, Ric Flair vs. Curt Hennig, and STIIIIIINNNNNGGGGG! Support us on Patreon, get this show early and ad free, plus TONS of BONUS content: patreon.com/WHWMonday Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/WHWMonday Check out all the new cool merchandise at BoxOfGimmicks.com Buy a shirt at https://www.prowrestlingtees.com/whw Subscribe to our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSAys3yHQjH5n8y082xgHNg MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code WHW at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit.  LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--and shipping is always free.  CHILISLEEP - Head over to sleep.me/WHW to learn more and save 25% off the purchase of any new Dock Pro, Cube, or OOLER Sleep System. This offer is available exclusively for What Happened When listeners -- and only for a limited time! BLUECHEW - Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That's BlueChew.com, promo code WHW to receive your first month FREE WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - Don't put Christmas on a credit card! Go to savewithconrad.com and let us help you put some cash back in your pockets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

83 Weeks is back with Eric Bischoff and Conrad Thompson where our main topic is the end of Eric's tenure at TNA and the controversial decisions that led to his departure from the company. Bischoff opens up about the behind-the-scenes drama and shares his thoughts on what could have been done differently. In this candid conversation, Bischoff and Thompson also discuss Bischoff's Twitter feud with Ric Flair, IF the Four Horsemen ever drew any money, Barry Windham's GoFundMe, the Claire Lynch angle, TNA's missed payments to wrestlers, and whether AEW is a "vanity project". Don't miss this must-listen episode for wrestling fans! MANSCAPED-Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code 83WEEKS at www.Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit. EMBARK- Right now, Embark has a limited-time offer on their Breed and Health Kit and Purebred Kit for 83 Weeks listeners! Go to Embarkvet.com to get free shipping and save $65 with promo code 83WEEKS. Visit www..Embarkvet.com and use promo code 83WEEKS to save $65 today. FANSLY-Go to www.fansly.com/promo/83WEEKS for a FREE extended trial subscription to one of our favorite content creators. Just use code 83WEEKS at checkout. All the content on www.Fansly.com - Who knows what you'll find? Feet pics? Your neighbor Jenna? Feet pics FROM your neighbor Jenna? Again that is www.fansly.com/promo/83WEEKS and promo code 83WEEKS. BETTERHELP-This podcast is sponsored by Better Help. When you're ready to feel at the top of your mental health game, therapy can get you there. Visit www.BetterHelp.com/83weeks today to get 10% off your first month. LUCY-So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code 83WEEKS at checkout--and shipping is always free. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

83 Weeks is back with Eric Bischoff and Conrad Thompson where our main topic is the end of Eric's tenure at TNA and the controversial decisions that led to his departure from the company. Bischoff opens up about the behind-the-scenes drama and shares his thoughts on what could have been done differently. In this candid conversation, Bischoff and Thompson also discuss Bischoff's Twitter feud with Ric Flair, IF the Four Horsemen ever drew any money, Barry Windham's GoFundMe, the Claire Lynch angle, TNA's missed payments to wrestlers, and whether AEW is a "vanity project". Don't miss this must-listen episode for wrestling fans! MANSCAPED-Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code 83WEEKS at www.Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit. EMBARK- Right now, Embark has a limited-time offer on their Breed and Health Kit and Purebred Kit for 83 Weeks listeners! Go to Embarkvet.com to get free shipping and save $65 with promo code 83WEEKS. Visit www..Embarkvet.com and use promo code 83WEEKS to save $65 today. FANSLY-Go to www.fansly.com/promo/83WEEKS for a FREE extended trial subscription to one of our favorite content creators. Just use code 83WEEKS at checkout. All the content on www.Fansly.com - Who knows what you'll find? Feet pics? Your neighbor Jenna? Feet pics FROM your neighbor Jenna? Again that is www.fansly.com/promo/83WEEKS and promo code 83WEEKS. BETTERHELP-This podcast is sponsored by Better Help. When you're ready to feel at the top of your mental health game, therapy can get you there. Visit www.BetterHelp.com/83weeks today to get 10% off your first month. LUCY-So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code 83WEEKS at checkout--and shipping is always free. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode of Something To Wrestle, Bruce and Conrad go back 20 years to revisit the Armageddon PPV! 2002 is coming to a close and it's a classic show to end the year. Shawn Michaels is WWE Champion and he will battle it out with Triple H in a Three Stages of Hell match. Plus, Big Show defends the other WWE title against Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit takes on Eddie Guerrero, Brock Lesnar is "suspended," Chris Jericho and Christian get stripped naked on Raw, and more! LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WRESTLE at checkout--and shipping is always free. MANSCAPED - Save 20% off + free shipping by going to manscaped.com/STW. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit. WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of Something To Wrestle, Bruce and Conrad go back 20 years to revisit the Armageddon PPV! 2002 is coming to a close and it's a classic show to end the year. Shawn Michaels is WWE Champion and he will battle it out with Triple H in a Three Stages of Hell match. Plus, Big Show defends the other WWE title against Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit takes on Eddie Guerrero, Brock Lesnar is "suspended," Chris Jericho and Christian get stripped naked on Raw, and more! LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WRESTLE at checkout--and shipping is always free. MANSCAPED - Save 20% off + free shipping by going to manscaped.com/STW. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit. WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this epiosde of WHW, we go back 25 years to WCW from December 12, 1987 where Lex Luger and the Horsemen finally explode! We'll also see Dr. Death, Barry Windham, the Freebirds, Ron Garvin, Sting, Larry Zbyszko, Nikita Koloff, and The Midnight Express are in action! Support us on Patreon, get this show early and ad free, plus TONS of BONUS content: patreon.com/WHWMonday Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/WHWMonday Check out all the new cool merchandise at BoxOfGimmicks.com Buy a shirt at LoisRules.com Subscribe to our YouTube channel: youtube.com/whw Save thousands at Savewithconrad.com MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code WHW at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit.  LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--and shipping is always free.  KEEPS - If you're ready to take action and prevent hari loss, go to KEEPS.COM/WHW to receive your first month of treatment for free. BLUECHEW - Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That's BlueChew.com, promo code WHW to receive your first month FREE WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - Don't put Christmas on a credit card! Go to savewithconrad.com and let us help you put some cash back in your pockets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this epiosde of WHW, we go back 25 years to WCW from December 12, 1987 where Lex Luger and the Horsemen finally explode! We'll also see Dr. Death, Barry Windham, the Freebirds, Ron Garvin, Sting, Larry Zbyszko, Nikita Koloff, and The Midnight Express are in action! Support us on Patreon, get this show early and ad free, plus TONS of BONUS content: patreon.com/WHWMonday Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/WHWMonday Check out all the new cool merchandise at BoxOfGimmicks.com Buy a shirt at LoisRules.com Subscribe to our YouTube channel: youtube.com/whw Save thousands at Savewithconrad.com MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code WHW at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, for a perfect gift that will be the holiday's biggest hit.  LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--and shipping is always free.  KEEPS - If you're ready to take action and prevent hari loss, go to KEEPS.COM/WHW to receive your first month of treatment for free. BLUECHEW - Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That's BlueChew.com, promo code WHW to receive your first month FREE WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - Don't put Christmas on a credit card! Go to savewithconrad.com and let us help you put some cash back in your pockets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this special Grilling JR, we celebrate STARRCADE season with a look back at three memorable episodes from our WWE Hall of Famer Jim Ross and host Conrad Thompson. The guys give us the inside scoop behind Starrcade 1987 Chi-Town Heat, Starrcade 1988 True Grit and Starrcade 1990 Collision Course! ATHLETIC GREENS - To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D & 5 FREE travel packs with your 1st purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/JR to take ownership over your health and pick up the ulimate daily nutritional insurance! LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code JR at checkout--and shipping is always free.  MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code JIMROSS at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, get your Jingle balls ready for the Holidays. WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  Have a RED ASS holiday season with JR's brand new "Red Ass" hot sauce! Grab your bottles over at www.jrsbbq.com Find everything you want to know about the show and our hosts over at www.grillingjr.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's World Championship Wrestling on WHW! We see Jim Ross' debut alongside Tony, Barry Windham taking on Larry Zybysko, the Powers of Pain before they are the Powers of Pain, Sting challenges Ric Flair, the Bunkhouse Stampede build begins, Tully & Arn are in tag action, Lex Luger's turn begins and Ric Flair defends the NWA World Title on TV for the first time in 2 years against Michael PS Hayes! And before all that, a very special countdown! Support us on Patreon, get this show early and ad free, plus TONS of BONUS content: patreon.com/WHWMonday Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/WHWMonday Check out all the new cool merchandise at BoxOfGimmicks.com Buy a shirt at LoisRules.com Subscribe to our YouTube channel: youtube.com/whw Save thousands at Savewithconrad.com ATHLETIC GREENS - To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D & 5 FREE travel packs with your 1st purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/WHW to take ownership over your health and pick up the ulimate daily nutritional insurance! LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--and shipping is always free.  WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - Don't put Christmas on a credit card! Go to savewithconrad.com and let us help you put some cash back in your pockets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's World Championship Wrestling on WHW! We see Jim Ross' debut alongside Tony, Barry Windham taking on Larry Zybysko, the Powers of Pain before they are the Powers of Pain, Sting challenges Ric Flair, the Bunkhouse Stampede build begins, Tully & Arn are in tag action, Lex Luger's turn begins and Ric Flair defends the NWA World Title on TV for the first time in 2 years against Michael PS Hayes! And before all that, a very special countdown! Support us on Patreon, get this show early and ad free, plus TONS of BONUS content: patreon.com/WHWMonday Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/WHWMonday Check out all the new cool merchandise at BoxOfGimmicks.com Buy a shirt at LoisRules.com Subscribe to our YouTube channel: youtube.com/whw Save thousands at Savewithconrad.com ATHLETIC GREENS - To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D & 5 FREE travel packs with your 1st purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/WHW to take ownership over your health and pick up the ulimate daily nutritional insurance! LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--and shipping is always free.  WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - Don't put Christmas on a credit card! Go to savewithconrad.com and let us help you put some cash back in your pockets! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode of Foley Is Pod, WWE Hall of Famer Mick Foley and host Conrad Thompson hand over the reigns to you! Mick answers all your question and has some hilarious stories that you'll only see and hear here. FITBOD- Join Fitbod today and build a routine that grows with you without slimming down your wallet. Get 25% off your subscription or try the app FREE at our link in the description below or go to Fitbod.me/ FOLEY. HENSON SHAVING - It's time to say no to subscriptions and yes to a razor that'll last you a lifetime. Visit HENSONSHAVING.com/FOLEY to pick the razor for you and use code FOLEY and you'll get two years' worth of blades free with your razor–just make sure to add them to your cart. MIRACLE BRAND - Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Brand! Go to Try Miracle.com/FOLEY and use the code FOLEY to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. Treat yourself, a friend, or loved one this holiday season. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code FOLEY at checkout--and shipping is always free. BETTER HELP - This podcast is sponsored by Better Help. When you want to be a better problem solver, therapy can get you there. Visit BetterHelp.com/FOLEY today to get 10% off your first month. That's BETTERHELP.com/FOLEY.

On this episode of Grilling JR, WWE Hall of Famer Jim Ross and host Conrad Thompson look back at the life and career of the legendary Davey Boy Smith aka The British Bulldog! MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code JIMROSS at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, get your Jingle balls ready for the Holidays. TITLE MATCH NETWORK - TitleMatchNetwork.com is the perfect gift for the holiday season. Save 50% Off All New Memberships w/ Coupon Code conrad (all lower case at checkout). If you don't like what you see, cancel anytime. That's TitleMatchNetwork.com with coupon code conrad (all lower case at checkout) to save 50% of all new memberships. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code JR at checkout--and shipping is always free.  ATHLETIC GREENS - To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D & 5 FREE travel packs with your 1st purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/JR to take ownership over your health and pick up the ulimate daily nutritional insurance! WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of Grilling JR, WWE Hall of Famer Jim Ross and host Conrad Thompson look back at the life and career of the legendary Davey Boy Smith aka The British Bulldog! MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code JIMROSS at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, get your Jingle balls ready for the Holidays. TITLE MATCH NETWORK - TitleMatchNetwork.com is the perfect gift for the holiday season. Save 50% Off All New Memberships w/ Coupon Code conrad (all lower case at checkout). If you don't like what you see, cancel anytime. That's TitleMatchNetwork.com with coupon code conrad (all lower case at checkout) to save 50% of all new memberships. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code JR at checkout--and shipping is always free.  ATHLETIC GREENS - To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D & 5 FREE travel packs with your 1st purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/JR to take ownership over your health and pick up the ulimate daily nutritional insurance! WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode of Something To Wrestle, Bruce and Conrad discuss the life and career of the original First Lady of Wrestling and his time with Miss Elizabeth in the business! From Randy to the Mega Powers to Hulk, her return, and then going to WCW, it'll all be covered! BLUECHEW - Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WRESTLE at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That's BlueChew.com, promo code WRESTLE to receive your first month FREE MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping at manscaped.com/STW.Manscaped, get your Jingle balls ready for the Holidays. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WRESTLE at checkout--and shipping is always free. WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  Looking for MORE Something To Wrestle? Check out STWLinks.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of Something To Wrestle, Bruce and Conrad discuss the life and career of the original First Lady of Wrestling and his time with Miss Elizabeth in the business! From Randy to the Mega Powers to Hulk, her return, and then going to WCW, it'll all be covered! BLUECHEW - Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WRESTLE at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That's BlueChew.com, promo code WRESTLE to receive your first month FREE MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping at manscaped.com/STW.Manscaped, get your Jingle balls ready for the Holidays. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WRESTLE at checkout--and shipping is always free. WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  Looking for MORE Something To Wrestle? Check out STWLinks.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On this episode of Foley is Pod, Mick and Conrad cover the 1996 Survivor Series! Everything is covered - from Undertaker, Bret Hart, and Van Hammer to the current NWA controversy, and even wrestling bears! Hear firsthand why this match and circumstances around the show still bother Mick to this day. All this and more on another fun episode of Foley is Pod! ROCKET MONEY - Get rid of useless subscriptions with Rocket Money now. Go to ROCKETMONEY.COM/FOLEY. Seriously, it could save you HUNDREDS per year. Cancel your unnecessary subscriptions right now at ROCKETMONEY.COM/FOLEY. MIRACLE BRAND - Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Brand! Go to Try Miracle.com/FOLEY and use the code FOLEY to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. Treat yourself, a friend, or loved one this holiday season. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code FOLEY at checkout--and shipping is always free. BLUE CHEW – Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code FOLEY at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That's BlueChew.com, promo code FOLEY to receive your first month FREE BETTER HELP – This podcast is sponsored by Better Help. When you want to be a better problem solver, therapy can get you there. Visit BetterHelp.com/FOLEY today to get 10% off your first month. That's BETTERHELP.com/FOLEY. HENSON SHAVING - It's time to say no to subscriptions and yes to a razor that'll last you a lifetime. Visit HENSONSHAVING.com/FOLEY to pick the razor for you and use code FOLEY and you'll get two years' worth of blades free with your razor–just make sure to add them to your cart.

One of the last big shows JR works for WCW features Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes vs. Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas for the Unified NWA/WCW tag team titles! Plus, Sting takes on Rick Rude in a King of Cable Tournament match, Madusa wrestles Paul E. Dangerously, Scotty Flamingo against Johnny B. Badd in a boxing match and more! It's 2 hours of Clash of the Champions XXI discussion on this week's Grilling JR! MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code JIMROSS at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, get your Jingle balls ready for the Holidays. TITLE MATCH NETWORK - TitleMatchNetwork.com is the perfect gift for the holiday season. Save 50% Off All New Memberships w/ Coupon Code conrad (all lower case at checkout). If you don't like what you see, cancel anytime. That's TitleMatchNetwork.com with coupon code conrad (all lower case at checkout) to save 50% of all new memberships. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code JR at checkout--and shipping is always free.  ATHLETIC GREENS - To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D & 5 FREE travel packs with your 1st purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/JR to take ownership over your health and pick up the ulimate daily nutritional insurance! WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One of the last big shows JR works for WCW features Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes vs. Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas for the Unified NWA/WCW tag team titles! Plus, Sting takes on Rick Rude in a King of Cable Tournament match, Madusa wrestles Paul E. Dangerously, Scotty Flamingo against Johnny B. Badd in a boxing match and more! It's 2 hours of Clash of the Champions XXI discussion on this week's Grilling JR! MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code JIMROSS at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, get your Jingle balls ready for the Holidays. TITLE MATCH NETWORK - TitleMatchNetwork.com is the perfect gift for the holiday season. Save 50% Off All New Memberships w/ Coupon Code conrad (all lower case at checkout). If you don't like what you see, cancel anytime. That's TitleMatchNetwork.com with coupon code conrad (all lower case at checkout) to save 50% of all new memberships. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code JR at checkout--and shipping is always free.  ATHLETIC GREENS - To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D & 5 FREE travel packs with your 1st purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/JR to take ownership over your health and pick up the ulimate daily nutritional insurance! WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. SAVE WITH CONRAD - If you have credit card debt or in a 30 year loan? Well, we can help you get out of that pinch and save money at the same time! Head over to SaveWithConrad.com for a quick quote.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The 21st Clash took place 30 years ago and Tony will be watching it back! Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas challenge Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes for the NWA/WCW Tag Team Titles, Sting takes on Rick Rude in a King of Cable tournament match, Madusa takes on Paul E. Dangerously, Erik Watts teams with Kensuke Sasaki to take on Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton and Scotty Flamingo has DDP & Vinnie Vegas in his corner for his boxing match against Johnny B. Badd! Support us on Patreon, get this show early and ad free, plus TONS of BONUS content: patreon.com/WHWMonday Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/WHWMonday Check out all the new cool merchandise at BoxOfGimmicks.com Buy a shirt at LoisRules.com Subscribe to our YouTube channel: youtube.com/whw Save thousands at Savewithconrad.com MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code WHW at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, get your Jingle balls ready for the Holidays. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--and shipping is always free.  MIRACLE BRAND - Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Brand! Go to Try Miracle.com/WHW and use the code WHW to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. Treat yourself, a friend, or loved one this holiday season BLUECHEW - Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That's BlueChew.com, promo code WHW to receive your first month FREE WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The 21st Clash took place 30 years ago and Tony will be watching it back! Ricky Steamboat & Shane Douglas challenge Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes for the NWA/WCW Tag Team Titles, Sting takes on Rick Rude in a King of Cable tournament match, Madusa takes on Paul E. Dangerously, Erik Watts teams with Kensuke Sasaki to take on Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton and Scotty Flamingo has DDP & Vinnie Vegas in his corner for his boxing match against Johnny B. Badd! Support us on Patreon, get this show early and ad free, plus TONS of BONUS content: patreon.com/WHWMonday Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/WHWMonday Check out all the new cool merchandise at BoxOfGimmicks.com Buy a shirt at LoisRules.com Subscribe to our YouTube channel: youtube.com/whw Save thousands at Savewithconrad.com MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code WHW at Manscaped.com. Manscaped, get your Jingle balls ready for the Holidays. LUCY - So whether you use nicotine while working, creating, or playing - Lucy Breakers are the intelligent choice. And we've got a special deal for our listeners: Get $10 off your first order when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--and shipping is always free.  MIRACLE BRAND - Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Brand! Go to Try Miracle.com/WHW and use the code WHW to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. Treat yourself, a friend, or loved one this holiday season BLUECHEW - Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WHW at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That's BlueChew.com, promo code WHW to receive your first month FREE WOOOOO WINGS - Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app.  Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon.  Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Big babies can come out of vaginas! During her first pregnancy, Lucy was told that she had a macrosomic baby. She was pressured into an induction which ultimately led to a C-section. Her baby was just over 8 pounds. Lucy later learned she was closed up with internal staples and only glue on the outside. Her incision popped open not long after surgery, she developed an infection, and she spent her first few weeks of motherhood traveling to the hospital to get her incision packed. The second time around, Lucy refused to take no for an answer. Though she stayed with the same hospital practice, Lucy equipped herself with an amazing VBAC doula and lots of VBAC Link education. She trusted the birth process and her team, safely delivering a 10-pound, 2-ounce baby!Additional linksAussie Doula5 Tips to Deliver a Large Baby Vaginally BlogBaby Weight Prediction and Third Trimester Ultrasound Blog5 Steps to Get Your Partner on Board with VBAC BlogHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, everybody. Guess what? We are doing an impromptu episode today. This is our friend, Lucy. You're listening to The VBAC Link and we can't wait to hear her story. We are going to talk about big babies. We hear it all the time. Big babies. “I can't have a vaginal birth because I have big babies” or “My pelvis is too small.” But she is here to share her story with you today and let you know that big babies can come out of vaginas. That is the big statement today. Big babies can come out of vaginas. Review of the WeekMeagan: I'm going to hurry and read a review, and then we will jump into her story. This is from bjmg104 on Apple Podcasts. It says, “This podcast is empowering and positive. As a home birth transfer turned Cesarean, this podcast has been so instrumental in helping me shed the shame and sense of failure I have been feeling since my son's birth. Armed with the knowledge gained in this podcast, I now feel more confident than ever in my next pregnancy. VBAC is possible for me. Thank you for this podcast.” Well, thank you, bjmg104 for sharing your review. Lucy's StoryMeagan: Okay, Lucy. We are jumping right in. I am going to turn the time over so you can have all of the time to share your story about big babies. Tell us about it. Tell us about your experience. Lucy: Oh my goodness. You know, I see all the time “big babies, big babies” and from 18 weeks pregnant, the second pregnancy now, I was told all the time. They would measure my belly and they would say, “You know, he's measuring two weeks ahead. He's measuring two weeks ahead.” Part of me was like, “Well hopefully, he's big like one of his Uncle Nicks,” because I have an Uncle Nick, my brother-in-law,  and an Uncle Nick, my brother, and I was like, “Maybe he'll just be a big dude.” It's okay. My mom had 10-pound babies so I was like, “I think we'll be okay.” But obviously, I was really, really hopeful for my VBAC and I left my previous practice after my first birth because my first birth was something that was just really, really traumatic to me. It didn't go at all the way that I had planned. It really came down to me just even talking to myself and my husband and us looking at ourselves and saying, “Being educated is just such a big thing.”I remember from the day that I found out I got pregnant, I would go on walks every day with my daughter and I would listen to The VBAC Link. I would say, “These women know what the deal is.” They are educated. They understand what's going on. They're empowering themselves. I was like, “You know? I've heard so much about doulas.” I didn't really know if a doula would be for me. I talked to a couple of different companies and I found Aussie Doula here in Charlotte. I spoke to Helen and she said, “You have to meet Raquel. She's my VBAC queen.” I was totally swept away after meeting Raquel. My husband and I joke because Raquel has that spiritual vibe to it where she really centered me, but then she also had a voice for me. From the beginning, Raquel helped me make that decision and stand up for myself from those appointments where maybe you don't want a cervical check right in the beginning because anything can happen. That's kind of what I'm going to share. I don't know if I need to touch at all on my first experience with my firstborn. Meagan: Yeah, feel free. Feel free.Lucy: So with my first, I was pregnant. I had a really healthy pregnancy, with not one issue whatsoever. I was the girl that people didn't really want to talk to when they asked me how my pregnancy was. I was like, “It's really rainbows and butterflies. That's how it is. It's great.” People were like, “Ugh. Not even morning sickness?” I was like, “Literally nothing.” So I was told that I had a macrosomia baby. I really trusted my doctor. I had been with that practice for five years. He was like, “Listen, if you don't do an induction, you're basically asking for a C-section.” I didn't know who to ask. I wasn't part of the different groups online, so I just trusted. At 39 weeks and 2 days, I went in on a Thursday and I got induced with Cervadil and Cytotec for two days. I was completely zero dilated. Nothing was happening. On Saturday, they hit me with Pitocin, then about 30 minutes later, my water exploded. I still wasn't dilated.Then, I got an epidural at 6 centimeters and I just plateaued. During that time, I got a fever and an amniotic fluid infection. Everything that could go wrong was going wrong. I remember from the first night on Thursday, a doctor walked in and said, “You know, we don't have to do this.” He goes, “You could just have a C-section and you don't have to go through this pain.”At the time, I laughed it off, but in hindsight, I was like, “He was so not supportive and that should have been my red flag from that moment.”Meagan: Yeah. Lucy: But I really trusted the process. He was someone at the practice I didn't know and I had never met. Turned out that he was the guy who did my C-section on Sunday. So that Sunday when I had my C-section, I started to feel a lot of things and a lot of pressure down there. I don't really do great medically when it comes to– everything grosses me out. Towards the end of my C-section, I was hollering. Josephine came out, my daughter, and she wasn't really crying or doing anything. That's another sign to me that she wasn't ready, you know? She didn't have her full time to be ready and do what she needed to do and my body needed to do for her to have the birth that also she deserved. I was closed up in a way that really wasn't grand to me. I had internal staples and outside, I had only glue. I say this because I've empowered so many of my friends already to just know, “How are you closed up in the case that maybe you do have a C-section?” It's something that many of us don't talk about or think about because we are like, “Well, a C-section won't happen to me.”Well, after a three-day filled induction, you can only imagine how swollen I was. By the time we got home on Tuesday, I popped my incision open. My top layer. I ended up back in the ER. Meagan: Oh man. Lucy: It was awful. We got home Tuesday. Thursday, that happened. So in the hospital, they swabbed me for COVID. I'm positive for COVID, so now I'm like, “Well, the world's ending, surely.” So then I have an infection in my uterus. I need antibiotics. They want to admit me for three days and I'm just like, “I can't.” If you want to put a woman into postpartum depression who is surviving it and getting through it, take her away from her baby for three days and put her in the hospital. I was like, “I can't physically do that. Not mentally.” I just had this sweet little girl that I want to be next to. I want to have my moments with her and my husband so I was like, “There's just no way.”Thankfully enough, I was given antibiotics, but I did have to drive all the way to uptown which is 30 minutes from where I live in Fort Mill, South Carolina, and have my incision packed every two days by the doctors because it needed to close up. It was just such a nightmare. For five good weeks, I looked at my husband and I was like, “Maybe we're only child kind of people.” We come from big, Greek and Italian background families and I always thought I wanted four kids. I was like, “I just don't think I could ever go through that again.”The time passed and like all women, we forget our trauma. So then the time came when we were like, “Let's add to the mix.” I'm more educated. I've been reading a lot on this. Things are possible. Just because I had a C-section doesn't mean that I am now married to that. I had family that still lives in Greece and even my aunt was like, “Well, now that you had that, that's all you can ever have.” I was like, “No, that's not true. I'm going to show the world that that's not true.”So when I got pregnant, I looked for a practice that was supportive. I went on The VBAC Link and I just got on Facebook and I read about different doctors. I went to this one practice in Charlotte at around my 18-week appointment. I was told that at 40 weeks to the day that I would have a C-section. I asked, “Why?” He said, “That's what we do with all women.” I said, “Well, I'm not all women. My name's Lucy and I have a unique medical history. I'm me and my own pregnancy.” He said, “That's just not the risk that this practice takes.” I said, “Well, I've heard that Pitocin is safe. Foley bulb if necessary. There are other mechanisms and other things that we can do.” He said, “That's just not something that we are willing to do.” I said, “Well, going back to our first visit and our other conversations, you're not VBAC supportive then. You're barely VBAC tolerant.” He said to me, “Well, I'll give you my suggestion, and then worst case scenario, you just don't come to the hospital.” I said, “Well, I'm not here for that worst-case scenario. I'm here to fully trust in my doctors and my provider.” I said, “So that's just not the option that I'm looking for.” He responded with, “Well, we're going to part ways. Better sooner than later.” So that was my hint. I came home, looked at my husband, and said, “The one appointment you didn't come to.” I was like, “Everything hit the fan.” I was like, “No way.”So I reached out to my old doctor, Dr. Graham, who had left the OB part of the practice and stuff. She had gone on her own to a different practice and I said, “Who do you recommend?” She said to me, “There's a great doctor at Midview OB/GYN. His name is Dr. Gibbons.” So my husband and I made an appointment. We went out there and we spoke with him. From the first second that I sat there, he said, “Macrosomia baby? Why is this on your chart? She was 8 pounds, 4 ounces.” He said, “This is irrelevant.”Meagan: Ahh!Lucy: He said, “There is no practical reason that you had a C-section.” I said to him, “Thank you. That's exactly what I'm saying.” I said, “I'm just here for a fair chance.” He talked to me and he said, “If it does end up in a C-section, I don't want you to think that you failed.” I said to him, “By no means if that's how the ending happens and I have a healthy baby and a healthy mama, that's not how I'm going to feel.” I said, “However, I do want the full experience, the full opportunity to be able to have a trial of labor and achieve my VBAC.” From there on, every time we met, he would talk about the size but he never told me that the size meant that I needed to get that baby out. So as things progressed in my pregnancy, I would hear a lot that he was large. Around 40 weeks, I had an ultrasound. I also had one at 36 and they said that he was big. And then I had one right at 40 weeks to the day which was two Thursdays ago. The ultrasound tech was the sweetest. I loved seeing her at this one location. She measured him and he measured in the 97th percentile. Then she did one whole measure again, everything, and she goes, “I'm getting the same exact number.” She's like, “I just feel so confident that he's 97%.” I said, “Okay, great. Thank you.” She said, “He looks healthy. The amniotic fluid is healthy.” I was like, “Great.” So then, Friday, I went in to the doctor– so I guess earlier in the week on Monday, I just decided that I would have a membrane sweep, but I was only 1 centimeter dilated. I was 50% effaced. I didn't really know if doing that was for me. I hadn't had one check my entire pregnancy and every time I said, “No,” it was a question when I went to the doctor. It was, “Would you like to be checked?” I said, “No, thank you.” And then that was the end of the conversation which was perfect to me. I will stop and just say one day I was having some pain. I want to say that I was early 30 weeks pregnant. I went to an urgent care OB here in Charlotte and it just so happened that my doula was in the area so she went with me. When I got there, I was having some pain. That's why I went. The nurse practitioner opened the door and she said, “Go ahead and undress from the waist down. You're in labor.” As she closed the door, my doula went, “Is that what you would like?” The lady opened the door and just looked at me. I said, “No, that's not what I would like and frankly, you don't even know the color of my hair. How would you even know that I'm in labor?” I said, “What I would love is for you to come in and have a conversation with me and if we feel the need to do something, we will be on the same page.” She goes, “Well, I am going to have to mark your chart that you declined it.” I said to her, “Do what you've got to do.” At this point, I said, “But I would appreciate it if you could come in and you could feel my belly. We could just talk through it.” She just had the worst attitude the whole time and then when the ultrasound tech came in, she did a scan and she was so sweet. She was showing me the baby and she was like, “Look, everything looks great here,” and blah blah blah. I was just so thankful that she brought me back down. I'm not one to leave a review, but I made sure. I was like, “I want the world to know that if you are going to come here, you're going to have to have a voice,” and then I realized there was a theme at that urgent care that you really didn't have a voice when you went in. I was so thankful that Raquel was with me, my doula, to help me have that first experience of standing up for what I wanted in my birth plan and in my pregnancy. That's why I thought it was such a big deal when I would go to a Midview OB/GYN that it was just a question of, “Would you like this?” So around 39 weeks when I had my first sweep, 39 and a few days, I had that ultrasound and I saw Dr. Gibbons on Friday prior to going into labor. At that point, I was 1.5 centimeters and he did a sweep. I had actually lost a lot of my mucus plug during that sweep. He just said to me, “Well, the goal is to go into labor naturally. That's what we're going to keep saying.” That was really it. He didn't tell me my baby was big or I needed to get him out. That night, I started having contractions all night every eight minutes for hours. The next day, they were gone. I was like, “Oh no, was that not real? What's going to happen now?”Of course, the later you get in your pregnancy, you're like, “I really want to go into labor. Is this going to happen for me?” So on Sunday, I was 40 weeks and 3 days. Around 6:00, contractions started happening again every ten minutes. I hung out on my yoga ball. I walked around. We went for a walk in my neighborhood. Around 9:00 p.m., I was like, “Okay, it's time to lay down and relax.” I lay in bed and they kept getting closer and closer and closer, but they were still more than five minutes apart, and then around 12:25 a.m., I felt a pop. I was like, “That's got to be my water.” So I stood up and sure enough, it was my water. I called Raquel and she said, “I'm going to come by the house first” because the goal was not to get to the hospital too early as well. Although I had trust in the process and the doctors, I was still really nervous that someone would try to force an epidural on me or even just a catheter in case I needed a C-section so we were trying to really get to the hospital at the right time. I started to get ready though and Raquel was on her way to my house. My husband was packing the car. Something didn't feel right. I felt a little bit of extra pain and I'm very high pain tolerant. I called Raquel and I said, “I just want to go to the hospital.” My contractions at that point were five minutes apart and she said, “Absolutely.” She had just pulled up to the house, so we left. We went to the hospital. We got there. The nurse came into triage and she checked me. She didn't say anything. I said, “Well, good news? How dilated am I?” She looked at me in a sad little voice and she said, “Have you ever been checked?” I said, “Yeah, I was checked on Friday. I'm 1.5.” She said, “You're still 1.5.” I was like, “Oh no.” She goes, “That was your water and your baby has meconium.” The monitors were reading a really high heart rate for him. All of a sudden, my world crashed down. I was like, “That's it. This is it. I'm going to have a C-section.” Raquel looked at me. It makes me all sad and I just want to cry as we talk about it. Raquel looked at me and she said, “It's a marathon. It takes time.” She goes, “You have to remember to release and allow your body to do what it needs to do and surrender.” She goes, “The beginning is going to be slow. It's going to happen so fast once it gets going. You're not going to expect it.” I believed. I believed at that moment that Raquel was telling me exactly what I needed to hear and know for my body. We hung out in triage for maybe an hour and by the time we got to a room, I was 3.5. I was like, “Okay, progress.” Thirty minutes later, I was 6 centimeters. I was like, “Okay.” We got to the hospital at 1:45 at night. By 4:45 a.m., I was 8.5. I was 8 centimeters dilated. Raquel had been constantly moving me. She would not let me stay in one position. I was just like, “Is this really happening? Everything is happening so fast. These contractions are so hardcore.” But she recommended nitrous for me because we were trying to stay away from the epidural at least in the beginning. At that point, I was begging for it. She said, “If you make it to 5, we will get an epidural, but just try the nitrous for me.” I tried the nitrous and while it didn't remove the pain, it took the edge off. I don't know if you've heard of other women using it, but I will say that it definitely was a great tool to have in your belt in the delivery room. Meagan: Yeah, I used it as well. It was great. Lucy: Yeah, I had no clue. If you had told me, I would have had no idea. So by that point, when I got to 8 centimeters, Raquel was like, “Listen.” She goes, “We've got this.” She goes, “I'm going to have you get up. You're going to sit on the yoga ball. We're just going to keep moving.” I was still asking for the epidural. She said, “Can you try asking for the epidural when you're not in the middle of a contraction so I can believe you?”I was like, “That's not fair.” The nurse comes over and she hangs a bag of liquids. She says to me, “When this bag is finished, I'll get you an epidural.” I said, “Y'all are so setting me up right now.” There's no way there is going to be time to get an epidural. Everybody is looking at each other and not looking at me like, “She ain't not getting an epidural.” So by the time I got up and sat on the yoga ball, I was like, “Oh my god, I have to push.”They get me right back on the bed. They check me and I'm 10 centimeters dilated, but he's not perfectly face down. He's not all the way sunny-side up, but he's not all the way down either. Raquel manhandled me. She totally flipped me on my side. It was Spinning Babies to the max in the middle of contractions that are happening every couple of seconds. I just relaxed into what she was doing. It was the flying cowgirl and he just flipped right back to where he needed to be, the perfect position. I pushed for an hour. So at 5:00 a.m., I started pushing. By 6:06, he was here. I just can't say enough for a hospital that I went to and didn't have a great experience with my first, I had the most phenomenal redemption birth that I could have dreamed of. The nurses, even the NICU team that was in there just in case. The doctor from the practice that I had never met, Dr. Rogers was at the end of my bed for the entire hour that I pushed stretching me, helping me to the point where I only have a midline of a vaginal tear. I didn't tear any other way with a 10-pound, 2-ounce baby. It's just so unreal to me that you're told all the time, “Big babies. You can't get them out.” I've been reading these posts online for days since I had my little one on the 18th of the month and I feel the need every single time a woman posts in distress to respond and be like, “You have this. You've got this.” Meagan: The 18th of this month?!Lucy: I just had him!Meagan: Like not even 10 days ago?Lucy: Not at all. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Lucy: Yeah, he's so fresh. That's why I'm so in all my feels about it. But I did. I looked at Raquel and I don't know if I'm allowed to say bad words here, but I looked at her and I said, “I got my f-in VBAC.” And we high-fived in the room.I was like, “Yeah.” We high-fived. I was like, “This happened.” I was like, “I need the world to know.” Meagan: Yes! And here you are. You're sharing it with the world. You're sharing it. Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. Meagan: And it is. It is possible. We've seen big babies come out of vaginas. We have seen it. We really, really have. Lucy: Yes. I think that we just need the opportunity to allow our bodies to do what they need to do. I mean, he was born at what? 40 weeks and 4 days? Meagan: Yeah. Lucy: A healthy, happy boy. Meagan: Yes. Well, you know what? In the show notes, we are going to include a couple of blogs about getting big babies out. So five tips to avoid a C-section and delivering a large baby. We are going to post that in the show notes. So if you want to read more about big babies and how possible it actually is, check out the show notes. If you don't believe this story alone because a 10-pound baby, that's a good size baby. It's possible. You're not a big person. Lucy: I'm 5'5”. Meagan: Yes. You're 5'5”. It's not like you're 6 feet, super, super tall because a lot of the time, taller people, when I say big, I mean tall torso and stuff like that, but 5'5” is still pretty small. Lucy: He was 23 inches long too. So he's a long, tall boy. Meagan: Way long, yes. Lucy: Yeah. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Well, congratulations. I cannot believe it was seriously less than 10 days ago, but we are so happy that you shared your story with us. I know that you are going to inspire so many out there. You know, also too, there's a lot of times where providers will say, “Oh, you've got a big baby in there,” and then the baby's not that big. Seriously, we've had clients that were told that their babies were 12 pounds and they had to have a C-section and then they had a C-section and their baby was 7 pounds. Lucy: That's why I feel like I'm here on The VBAC Link because I was told that with my first. Meagan: Yep, exactly. Lucy: That's my story. Meagan: And it was. And your baby was 8 pounds. It's so hard. You've got to follow your intuition. Good for you for sticking with it and fighting through everybody even when there was some tension. You were fighting through, so congratulations and thank you so much. Lucy: Thank you. Thanks, Meagan. This VBAC Link just has empowered me through this whole process.Meagan: Oh, that makes my heart so happy. Lucy: Mine too. My husband, too. He was so on board with everything. I can't ask for a more supportive partner. Meagan: We are going to drop that one too, talking about supportive partners and how to get yours on board because that truly makes a big difference when you have that support, especially if there's not a ton of support coming from the provider or they're not as gung-ho if you can have that support from your partner, oh my gosh. It makes a world of difference. Lucy: Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thanks for all that you do and all of our voices that are heard. Meagan: Absolutely, thank you.  ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Lucy Hall is the Co-Founder of LOANHOOD, an online fashion rental platform and community that allows users to loan inclusive, diverse, and creative styles for an affordable price. Chad talks with Lucy about being a peer-to-peer fashion rental app, building a community, and reducing the impacts of the fashion industry on the planet and people by helping to create a sustainable future. LOANHOOD (https://www.loanhood.com/) Follow LOANHOOD on Twitter (https://twitter.com/loanhoodlondon), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/loanhood/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/loanhood), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@loanhood), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCzWBlASKUfH1OsdPEJOKxg), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/loanhood/). Follow Lucy on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucy-hall-616b1614/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Lucy Hall, the Co-Founder of LOANHOOD, who are changing the face of fashion. Lucy, thank you so much for joining me. LUCY: Thank you so much for having me, Chad. CHAD: How are some of the ways that LOANHOOD is changing the face of fashion? LUCY: So we're starting off with a peer-to-peer fashion rental app, which we just launched ten days ago now. CHAD: Congratulations on the launch. LUCY: It's been a long time in the making. And, like I said, we're starting with a fashion rental app. But there are so many different ways that we want to change the face of fashion. It definitely needs a facelift. CHAD: What caused you to start with the rental platform? LUCY: It was something that we were really passionate about. So my co-founders and I actually worked in the fashion industry for the majority of our careers. So we could see first-hand how it was changing, how it's developing. And sustainability started coming into our lives, and we could see that things had to change. And we know that the fashion industry is quite archaic. Big fashion businesses are like these huge ships. It's so hard for them to change their course and to actually implement sustainability into their supply chains or their values. And we knew that we could do it quicker and better and faster than them. So we started testing the idea of circular fashion by doing clothes swaps which is a kind of an entry-level way to circulate fashion for free or relatively cheaply. And we started getting this amazing feedback from people like, "Oh, we would love to do this again. And have you thought about monetizing it?" And, of course, that was our...to get to scale, we knew that we had to monetize this sharing of clothes. And that's how our peer-to-peer fashion rental app grew and was born. CHAD: That's great. So you have two co-founders. LUCY: I do. CHAD: Jade and Jen. Were the three of you working together at the time? LUCY: Funny story, Jade and I are actually best friends. And Jade was my model back in the day. So Jade has been a fashion model for 12-plus years. And she was on Britain's Next Top Model. And I was a model agent. She came into my agency as one of the runner-uppers, and we forged a lifelong friendship from there. And we've both been passionate about fashion. And then, as I said, our career paths, we could see the detrimental effect of the planet. And Jade decided to go back to university and start studying. She did her master's in fashion futures at London College of Fashion. And that's where she started seeing sustainability. And the idea of a peer-to-peer rental came from that course. She was studying the future of fashion, and she knew that this was the only way we can move forward. And Jen was a friend of Jade and is a graphic designer by trade and is an amazing brand builder and amazing designer. So we were asking her for some advice. And she came on as a co-founder at the beginning because she just knew this was the right path for her. CHAD: You started with these swaps. Were you doing the swaps as friends because you felt it was the right thing to do? Or did you have an eye towards this could be something more? LUCY: Well, we knew from the beginning that we wanted to do something big. We knew we'd got to a certain point in our careers where we were like, right, let's use our skills to really make a change. But we were also working, and we all had jobs, so we were kind of doing it as a side hustle, just testing the idea and going, "Oh yeah, we'll do this." And then it started picking up, and we got a contract with a local council. And we were like, wow, people are really interested in this. Let's keep going, and then the pandemic hit. CHAD: How did the pandemic affect you? LUCY: [chuckles] Well, as you can imagine, people weren't really doing clothes swaps or renting or even thinking about those things at the beginning of the pandemic anyhow. So we kind of just put it on hold and did what everyone did in the pandemic, hunkered down. And we started learning as much as we could about the circular economy, about sharing economy, trust economy, marketing, product, really teaching ourselves from the bottom up what it takes to make a global brand. So we were quite lucky in the respect that we had that time away to really hone our skills and focus on what we wanted in the long term. So post-pandemic, when we came out of the lockdowns, although there were multiple back and forth, as you know, it was definitely a stop-start for us, but we knew that it actually...it just allowed us that time to really focus our minds on what we wanted and a long-term plan, not just like, oh, let's try this out. We know what we want for the next 5 to 10 years, basically. CHAD: At what point did you decide, okay, we have to make an app? LUCY: It was a difficult one because we thought Shopify, Sharetribe there are all these amazing platforms. You can just get a business at the click of your fingers. However, for peer-to-peer fashion rental, it's a much more complex model. Even Sharetribe, which is supposed to be for those kinds of models it's not as detailed as we needed it to be. So we tried to build a website from scratch. And, again, we just knew that we're very much focused on Gen Z. And when we were talking to our audience, we knew that they wanted an app. So we just scrapped it and said let's just go for it. But having no technical background was a real difficult decision for us because we had no funding. We'd all just left our jobs. The pandemic had happened, so we didn't have any savings really. So we had some money from the clothes swaps. And we did a rewards-based Crowdfunder, and we raised £14,000 from friends and family in our community that were buying free rentals for the future and just believed in the mission that we were on. And we were able to get that £14,000 and put it into the start of building an app. And as you're aware, apps cost a lot of money. CHAD: [laughs] LUCY: We didn't get that far. And we learned a lot of lessons with the build because we tried to project manage it ourselves. Having no technical background, that was tricky. And we offshored it to a team in India who were lovely and amazing but not as skilled as we needed them to be. Because we had no technical background, we really needed somebody to lead that for us. So we had a starting point, but we knew that we had to actually get a technical lead on board pretty soon. And we were lucky enough to find a partner in a company called ON, who are based in the UK. And with them on board, they led the tech from there on. CHAD: Continuing to work with that team in India, or did they actually provide the entire team at that point? LUCY: We switched to another offshore team because it costs so much money here in the UK. CHAD: So when was this all happening? LUCY: Last year, mainly. 2021. CHAD: To give folks an idea, you make the decision to start building an app. You start doing that in 2021. You just launched. But your business is more than just the app. Were you right up to the wire with the app being ready? LUCY: Like you said, we're building a community. And what we learned from the pandemic is that you can't rely on one part of your business to help you succeed. You need multiple things. And what we're passionate about more than anything is community. And what we found with the fashion industry is that it can be quite elitist. And if you want to work in the fashion industry, you have to move to London or New York or Paris, and you have to probably know somebody in the fashion industry, and we wanted to change that. We wanted you to be able to start your own fashion journey wherever you are based. And what we also saw was that all this money that people were spending on fashion was going to big fashion businesses and to probably one guy at the top of that chain, whereas, with peer-to-peer rental, you can actually circulate that money within communities. You're lifting communities up so they can create their own sustainable fashion future. So what was really important to us was to have community as one of our main pillars going forward. CHAD: And how have you gone about building that community? LUCY: Organically so far, which has been really nice. And again, the events that we do have been part of that. But to scale, we really need to start building out ambassador programs, referral systems that can help us hit those kinds of network effects. CHAD: So I know you're only in the UK. LUCY: Correct. CHAD: What are the limiting factors to expansion beyond the UK? LUCY: Money, obviously. CHAD: [laughs] Okay. LUCY: We're on a funding journey at the moment, and that's a ride for sure. So we kind of use the Depop playbook. Do you know Depop? You're probably over 25, so that's probably why you don't know it. CHAD: [laughs] Yes. LUCY: A third of 16 to 25-year-olds are on Depop in the UK. It's the 10th most-searched-for resale platform in the U.S. And they started off in the UK, and they organically grew into the U.S., which is nuts. We probably won't do that, of course, but we plan to go to the U.S. potentially next. But it depends on investment, on what our audience is saying, where they're based. What we find with our audiences, the universities that we partner with we have a lot of international students. So they're taking that idea back to their hometowns, which is really interesting. But on a tech front, going into the U.S. is easier because it's an English-speaking country. Going into Europe is a bit more complex because you have lots of different languages, although you have one single currency, which is helpful. CHAD: Since your model is peer-to-peer, individuals are sending the rented item directly to the person who's renting it, right? LUCY: That's correct, yeah. CHAD: And so I suppose one potential barrier is you don't need to be able to receive centrally or to handle things in the United States. But you need enough people in the U.S. to make it worthwhile for individuals to be sending each other things to have enough rentals and activity. LUCY: Always, the problem with the marketplace is the cold start problem. There is a great book by Andrew Chen called The Cold Start Problem. And we really need to build both the supply side, which we call the loaner, and the demand side, which we call the borrower. So we have been working really hard in the UK to get as many of the supply side on board because we know the people that we want to be on the platform, so emerging designers, young makers, and creators. And because we have our fashion backgrounds, we can identify those people quite quickly. And we've done things that are totally not scalable, like messaging them on Instagram and scouting people in the streets. But as a small startup, you kind of have to do those scrappy things as well just to kind of build the supply side. CHAD: Right. And I think that's why so many marketplaces end up focusing on particular geographies even if they could expand because that focus helps you do those unscalable things that you need to do in the early days to bootstrap that community that you need for the marketplace. It hadn't occurred to me until you just said it that I've been thinking that this would totally be individuals, but for an emerging fashion designer to be on your community offering up their clothing for rental, that hadn't even occurred to me as a possibility. LUCY: Something that we're passionate about, especially post-pandemic, a lot of young people that are either at university and didn't get the real university experience had to make some extra money started these side hustles of teaching themselves to crochet or teaching themselves to knit. And now they have these amazing pieces, and they're open to renting them out as well as doing their retail side of it. And what we found from the resale people, so the Depopers or people on Vinted, was that they'd get this kind of seller's remorse. So they'd upload the item, take amazing pictures, and they'd sell it once. But with rental, you upload it, and you can rent it out over and over and over again. And you still get to keep it and wear it yourself, so a bit of a no-brainer. CHAD: Yeah. So you went on the journey of creating the app, creating the community. You've just launched. So are you actively fundraising? LUCY: We are actively fundraising. We're just closing our pre-seed round. And we were very lucky to have an incredible lead investor come on board. He just got the idea instantly. What we found difficult is being female founders who don't have tech backgrounds; it's definitely a couple of negatives against us. [laughs] But we're going to use it to our advantage, and the people that are on the journey with us now 100% are behind us and believe in what we're doing. Because we're an impact business as well as we want to have profit alongside people and planet, that's what's important to us to make impact socially, environmentally, and through the industry. So the next step of our fundraising journey will be a crowdfund, an equity-based crowdfund. So we did the rewards-based crowdfunder last year. This year, it's going to be equity-based because we really believe that we're building this platform for our community, our audience. So they should be able to invest in us and come on that journey with us. And hopefully, the business grows to huge proportions, and that they can get some money back out of that later in their lives. CHAD: Are you going to be using a platform to do that? LUCY: We are undecided, although I'm leaning over to between one and another. There are only two platforms really in the UK, so Seedrs and Crowdcube. And I've spoken to some other founders that have done both platforms. And I've spoken to both the companies. I've looked at articles trying to find which one's the best fit for us. One interesting thing that we had with the Crowdfunder was we were deciding between Kickstarter and Crowdfunder UK. And Kickstarter is very much more focused on men, more sports, definitely a male demographic, so that's why we went with Crowdfunder. With Seedrs and Crowdcube, they don't have that; it's a very equal split. So it's just on the feedback that we've had from other people that have used those platforms. So I'm leaning towards one, but I won't say yet because I haven't fully decided. CHAD: So you're only allowed to do that with people in the UK? LUCY: I think it can be global, actually. CHAD: Are you planning on having it be global? LUCY: We have friends and family all across the world. I spoke to somebody today in Lithuania. I spoke to somebody the other day in Australia. I speak to people in the U.S. all the time that are like, "When are you coming to us?" [chuckles] CHAD: Yeah, that'll be interesting; the fact that you're able to do the equity crowdfund anywhere, but people won't be able to actually use the product right away. You know, it's sort of a catch-22; you've got to have one before you can have the other. And so, hopefully, people go along on the journey. LUCY: Chicken and the egg. We need the money to build the tech, to build the audience. But we need the audience and the tech to show the investors that we've got engagement and traction. And yeah, there's always something. I think we're doing pretty good. MID-ROLL AD: As life moves online, brick-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. CHAD: You mentioned that your three female founders have faced some bias, it sounds like, especially in talking with potential investors and seeking to grow your community. How has that been for you? LUCY: You know, I don't want to put it down to being a female founder. I actually think the statistics tell us that, unfortunately. But I think what's the problem is that most of the people that I speak to in investment, either VCs or angels are guys, middle-aged guys between, say, late 30s to the 60s, and they are investing in businesses that they get. They don't generally get a peer-to-peer fashion rental app for Gen Z. They're like, "Oh, they're going to want to ship things to each other, and like, what about the packaging?" And they've never heard of Depop. It just got bought by Etsy for $1.62 billion. It's a huge industry, and rental is just an evolution of resale. And they're like, "Oh, okay, kind of get it," but they don't really. We have to hand-hold them a lot through the pitch deck and get them excited. But that's, the problem is that we don't have enough women in the investment space or ex-founders. I know in the U.S., it's a lot different. They have a lot more ex-founders investing, especially angel investors, which is great because they get the journey. Whereas if you have somebody with a financial services background, all they care about is the math of it. And it's like, you know what? Startups don't always just succeed on the math; it's the vision, it's the idea, it's the network effects, it's the audience. There are so many different things at play here. And if you've never started a business yourself, you just don't get that. CHAD: There's a lot that goes into creating a company. And it may not be the fact that your female founders directly contribute to it but in an environment where they're looking for a reason not to invest. LUCY: Exactly. CHAD: That bias can creep into all of the excuses or differences that someone might point to and say, "Oh, this isn't going to work," or "I don't get this." LUCY: 100%. If you've got a good business idea and you've got a strong pitch deck and a strong financial model, then that business will do well, for sure. However, there are so many other factors at play. And when there are so many great businesses competing against one another, they unbiasedly go with one over the other. CHAD: So you also mentioned you have another excuse that people might use is you just don't have a technical founder on the founding team. LUCY: That's definitely a struggle. We will be bringing in a CTO later in the year, which will be really exciting because it's definitely the missing piece to the puzzle. We have domain expertise in fashion. We have that side of it down. But yeah, the technical side of things, I think all the founders that I have spoken to that do have a CTO in the founding team or even have brought their technical team in-house just say it's a game changer. When somebody is invested in your company, and they're using the platform every single day, they can see the bugs. I mean, Chaz from Fat Llama, which is a great rental app, said that his developers would pull out a laptop in the pub and be like, "Oh, I just saw a bug. Let me quickly fix it." I mean, wow, that would be insane. Our developers finish at a certain time, and that's it; they're gone. So if we have a problem on an evening or even because they are in India they have a different time, we can't get hold of them. It's so frustrating. CHAD: So when you start to build a team, will you be doing it based in the UK? LUCY: Or based in Europe, at least. I think another thing to come out of the pandemic is this remote work, and I think that's great. I think there's so much talent across Europe, across the world. But for the timezone issue, I think Europe is definitely a better fit for us because we don't want to be having the same issues that we're having now with the time differences with India. But yeah, there's so much talent across the whole of Europe. CHAD: Yeah, that's what we do at thoughtbot. We are all throughout the Americas, all throughout Europe, Middle East, and Africa. We've built our team. But we're grouped in by timezone. So people work with clients and with each other. And there, it's based on the timezone that they're in. And so that does make a big difference around how communication can work and how a part of the team you're able to feel because you're online at the same time as each other. LUCY: Yeah. Definitely, that's a great show. CHAD: But I definitely recommend casting as wide as possible. It definitely allows you to hire the best person for the job. LUCY: Yeah, I think we need to find somebody that's passionate about the mission and who understands working with three co-founders that don't have a tech background that we probably do need a little bit more hand-holding than another founder would. We're learning so much as we go. Hopefully, we'll be coders one day. [laughter] CHAD: I actually don't think that. Some people might say, "Oh, you really should learn to code yourself." And I think that that does a disservice to what you are bringing to the table with your domain expertise and with your ability to really understand the industry and know what needs to happen from a business perspective. LUCY: Yeah, I would totally agree. You can't be an expert in every part of the field. You can't be an accountant; you can't be a CTO. You need to be good at exactly what you do. And I'm the CEO, so I have an overview of everything. And that's what I love is kind of have a little finger on each little project that's going on and really get an understanding of across the board. But you need those people that are drilling into, like, we have my co-founder, Jen, who's a graphic designer by trade, but she's our Chief Creative Officer. And she really drills down into the creative side of things. And she knows what she's talking about. And she is the expert in that, and that's so valuable. CHAD: And I think that that's the important thing to founders to do early on is to really understand what their product and business are. You don't necessarily need to learn how to code. But I do think it's a mistake when early founders start stepping away from the product too early. LUCY: Yeah, you need to be super close to the product. And you need good communication across all different divisions. So marketing and product have to talk to each other all the time, so we can tell our audience what's happening in the product, and then we can build the features that we need to grow from the marketing side of things. It's all about communication. And it's so hard as a startup because there are so many different things going on and so many people pulling you from left to right. There are metrics to hit; there are bills to pay, there's audience, the community to keep happy. And it's like, oh, you can't drop the ball on anything. You really have to just do as much as you can. But if you communicate to each of those stakeholders, we're doing our best. I mean, we had a mail-out the other day that said this is a business built by hands. It's built by people. I know we're a tech company, but there are real developers there hammering on their laptops. We're all here writing the copy and doing everything that we can to make this the most successful business so we can make real impact on the climate change and communities. CHAD: I want to talk about that impact, but before we do, I'm curious, so you're all in the same general London area? LUCY: No, we're not, actually. So Jade and Jen are based in London. And I actually moved out of London a couple of years ago, and I live in New York in the north of England. CHAD: Oh, okay. LUCY: See, definitely a different dynamic. And another reason why I'm passionate about bringing the fashion industry outside of London is because I travel up and down all the time, and I'm lucky it's like an hour 50 on the train. But that becomes expensive, and it's difficult to travel all the time. CHAD: So, are you meeting in person with each other? LUCY: We try. I just saw the girls last week. I'm seeing them again at the weekend. We speak every single day on Slack, WhatsApp. We have weekly calls, and we jump on pretty much video calls to each other every day. And that's, again, another thing from the pandemic that's been a game changer. Because when I actually left, it was just before the pandemic. We were like, oh my God, how is this going to work? But I knew that it was the right decision for me. And then the pandemic hit, and everyone was on video calls. And we were like, oh, this is so easy. This is great. [laughs] CHAD: Yeah, it really opened that up to everyone's expectations. LUCY: Yeah, and I think it's great. I think it's much more flexible. And we will get an office for sure. But I would love to have an office here and an office in London so we can have teams across the nation. Because I think we don't all have to go and live in a capital city to get the same out of the fashion industry. CHAD: Yeah. So let's talk about sustainability, the environment, and climate change. I am somewhat aware that an enormous amount of resources goes into creating new items of clothing. LUCY: It's crazy. So the fashion industry accounts for 10% of the global greenhouse gas emissions at the moment. And if nothing changes by 2050, it will use a quarter of the world's carbon budget. It is insane, and it affects not only the planet but people. The garment workers are paid nothing. They're treated badly. And this is all part of the supply chains of fashion businesses. And like I said, when I started in the fashion industry, e-commerce really was only just starting, and Jade, who is the model, was working for Asos, which is a big fashion brand and big fast fashion brand. So when she started working for them, she was shooting like 10-15 items, 20 items a day, and when she left, so five years later, they were shooting like 70 items per day. They were just churning out more and more fashion, more options. And you can imagine most of the clothes are made...well, we have this whole disconnect about clothes. So I actually had a restaurant for three years in between my fashion career. And that's where I found sustainability because you have that connection with food. And you know that eating organic or eating locally and seasonally is better for you and better for the planet. But nobody thinks that your clothes come from the ground. They're made from plants. Or if they're not made from plants, they're made from oil. It's nuts that people don't have as much education around it. And that's partly because the fashion industry doesn't want people to know, and it's a lot of smoke and mirrors. It's a very opaque industry. We went to one university, and they said that they thought all clothes were made from machines. They had no idea that there was cotton and linen. And so, like, wow, this is crazy. CHAD: So given that it's the magnitude of the size of the problem but also the industry, there are two ways of looking at that, I'm sure, one is the potential for your impact is huge. The other is how do you get started? How can we have an impact there? So how are you tackling that? LUCY: I get asked a lot by people, like, how can I start my sustainability journey? I feel so much pressure to do things. I should be vegan, or I'm not recycling enough. I got a plastic bag, oh, I feel terrible. And it's like we are all on a journey. And you just have to start one day at a time and just be more conscious. So whether that's instead of buying one dress for a wedding that you are probably just going to stick in your wardrobe, why don't you rent it? Try one of the platforms that are out there, and you can rent a really cool dress, and that's probably someone else is going to rent it, and someone else is going to rent it. And by prolonging the life of an item, you can save so much energy and water. And those small things that we can each do will make a huge impact globally. There's a lot of mindset shifting and behavioral change that needs to come with rental. As we saw with Airbnb when they started, people were like, "Oh God, I don't want someone sleeping in my bed," and now I Airbnb in my house all the time. And it's a great source of secondary income, especially for a startup founder [chuckles] but also giving people the opportunity to have these experiences in small communities, which I love. And that's what we want to see with fashion is that people will start being more conscious. And how LOANHOOD is different to other more traditional rental systems is it's much more affordable. And it's much more accessible because you can meet in person. So how we see it growing is these hyperlocal communities where you can meet people in person, a bit like Facebook Marketplace. They've done super well in more of the suburban areas. You can drop off your dress to somebody around the corner. So you're reducing the cost of delivery and reducing the emissions by meeting in person. So those hyperlocal communities will be really important in helping people adopt this behavior. CHAD: Are you worried from a business perspective that if it's just renting to someone around the corner that they might not want to do it through LOANHOOD? LUCY: I think people will still do it through the platform because of the added value that we give, you know, rental protection. I could go and borrow people's clothes like my friends in the area. I wouldn't do that. I might do it once or twice. I think if it's not somebody that you're really friendly with, then you would definitely do it through the platform. CHAD: Yeah. And by rental protection, you mean if something gets damaged or that kind of thing, it's protected. LUCY: We don't have full insurance yet because, again, the sharing economy is a new economy. And, of course, insurers are very old school. And it's hard for them to grasp the fact that there's a new industry here, but that is changing. And as soon as we have more data, we'll be able to get full insurance for these items. But right now, we do it in-house and protect items, minor damage, or repairs. And if it isn't returned or damaged beyond repair by the person that's renting it, then they have to cover the retail price of it. CHAD: Yeah, makes sense. What's beyond rental platform in terms of this is where you decided to start, but your goal is to change the face of fashion? What's beyond? LUCY: There are lots of different verticals that we can do within rental or in fashion. So we're really passionate about digital fashion. Jade, my business partner, is actually doing her Ph.D. in digital transformation in the metaverse. So how can we bring sustainability and ethical practices into the metaverse with fashion is something that we're really passionate about and something that we're exploring, renting different things so femtech, or skiwear, activewear, all those kind of things and then just creating a space for our community to grow creatively. So entrepreneurship is really important to us as well, and giving people the opportunity to be...especially Gen Z they have this way that's called pay to create. So they're passionate about making money out of things that they can do themselves, whether that's creating content, renting out the things they own, upcycling. We want to expand on that and give them the tools to actually create their own career paths. You don't have to go down the traditional university routes. We see a world where there's a LOANHOOD campus where you can come and learn how to be content creators or all sorts of different things. It's a really exciting time. And our 10-year plan keeps getting more bigger and bigger. And we're like, oh God, it's just exciting. CHAD: Yet do you worry about spreading yourself too thin and compromising on the early steps? LUCY: We always come back to the point of why we're doing this and who we're doing this for because what's the point? Otherwise, we're doing this to reduce impacts of the fashion industry on the planet and people. And we are doing this for our community and to give them the options and give them the power back. As we've seen with governments around the world, people in leadership roles are not doing enough, and we can't rely on them. So if we want to create our own sustainable future, we have to do it ourselves. And we want to give people the tools to do that. CHAD: Well, I wish you the best of luck in that. I'm very confident that you're going to have the impact you're looking for along the way, and I wish you the best in that. Thank you for stopping by and sharing with us. I really appreciate it. LUCY: Thank you so much for having me. It was great to chat too. CHAD: If folks want to find out more or get in touch with you or follow along, where are all the different places that they can do that? LUCY: Check out our website, loanhood.com. If you are a founder and you want to talk about funding or building a product, marketing, you can email me lucy (L-U-C-Y) at lucy@loanhood.com. And we are on Instagram and TikTok @loanhood. CHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes which include a link to everything that Lucy just mentioned along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and I'll see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Jolie is joined by Dr. Lucy Long, director of the independent Center for Food and Culture and an instructor of American studies, ethnic studies, folklore, and nutrition at BGSU, and Jerry Reed, a recent graduate from the MA program in popular cultures studies at BGSU. They discuss their “Finding Comfort/Discomfort Through Foodways” project that examines how comfort food can be meaningful and create meaningfulness in the face of the COVID-19 pandemic.   Announcer: From Bowling Green State University and the Institute for the Study of Culture and Society, this is BG Ideas. Musical Intro: I'm going to show you this with a wonderful experiment. Jolie: Welcome back to the BiG Ideas podcast, a collaboration between the Institute for the Study of Culture and Society and the School of Media and Communication at Bowling Green State University. I'm Jolie Sheffer, Associate Professor of English and American Culture Studies, and the Director of ICS. Due to the ongoing pandemic, we are not recording in the studio, but remotely via phone and computer. As always, the opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of BGSU or its employees. Jolie: Bowling Green State University is located in the Great Black Swamp, long a meeting place of the Wyandot, Shawnee, Lenape, Ottawa, Kickapoo, Fox, Pottawatomie, Erie, Miami, Peoria, Chippewa, and Seneca Indian tribes. We honor the rich history of this land and its indigenous inhabitants, past and present. Today we're joined by two guests, Dr. Lucy Long and Jerry Reed. Lucy directs the Independent Center for Food and Culture and teaches in American studies, ethnic studies, folklore and nutrition at BGSU. Her research focuses on food, music, and dance as mediums for meaning and community. Jolie: Lucy served as the Director of "Finding Comfort/Discomfort Through Food Ways," a project that examines how people are living and eating in these difficult pandemic times. Jerry Reed earned a BS in Education and an MA in Popular Culture Studies from BGSU. He completed an internship with the Center for Food and Culture, working to develop a curriculum that uses food to help children understand cultural conflict. Jerry worked as the Assistant Director of the Food Ways Project. Thanks both for being with me today, I'm really excited to talk about this with you. To get us started, could you tell us a little bit about the Food Ways Project and how it came about? Will you start us off, Lucy? Lucy : Okay. When the pandemic first hit, I started noticing that food media was publishing recipes for comfort food. And this is a stressful time for comfort food. So I actually edited a volume and published some articles in 2017 on comfort food, so that automatically grabbed me. And my initial response to some of these publications, particularly-there was one for the New York Times, and it was comfort foods of famous chefs. And it was all these specialty ingredients and things that, probably, the average American would not have in their pantry. And I realized, first of all, these foods are not things that I relate to, personally, as a comfort food. And they probably are not relevant to many people who are reading this. But also, the idea of having to go out and find these ingredients, some of which are very expensive, but many of which, you would have to go to different grocery stores or try to find them. Lucy : And I realized, that's going to cause a lot of discomfort. So that got me thinking a little bit more about at how, during this time, it's not a simple thing to say, "Here, eat some comfort food and calm down." And then also, comfort food itself as a very American concept. Every culture has food that is comforting, that reminds people of their childhood, and things like that. But it's uniquely American in that there is a particular sort of morality attached to food in America. That different foods are good and bad, depending on what they do to your body, physically. And we're not even talking about health, we're talking about whether or not those foods make you fat or whether they make you kind of sluggish or whatever. Lucy : So, so much of our morality around food is tied to how that food impacts your body, your body image, and whether or not you have the proper type of body. So therefore, Americans talk about good foods and bad foods in terms of, good foods are ones that are healthy for us, will keep us nice, fit and slim. Bad foods are the ones that really tastes good, lots of fat, lots of sugar, salt, but we all know that they're bad for us. That they have negative impacts on our weight, on our body shape, and on our energy levels. Lucy : So that grows out of a very distinctive, American attitude towards food. And the phrase, "comfort food," was invented in the US. Dr. Joyce Brothers used it in the 1960s as an explanation for why so many Americans were starting to be obese, said that people are turning to comfort foods. They have stress in their lives or they need comfort for some reason, so they're using that as an excuse to eat these fattening foods. And then the food industry picked up on that and said, "Oh, okay, here are some comfort food dishes," and they started using that concept to market these dishes. Saying that, "Oh, everybody needs comfort, so here, eat some macaroni and cheese." So it turned into a marketing category. Jolie: Yeah, it's so interesting because, two thoughts. One is that, the opposite of comfort food is discomfort food. The things we're supposed to like are the things we're not supposed to enjoy. That there really is this idea of, maybe that is also a very American thing, that Protestant work ethic, that we're suspicious of pleasure, in some ways. Jerry, what was your particular interest in some of these issues in this Food Ways Project? Jerry: Especially as we dug deeper into the interviews that were conducted, I think one of the most surprising and interesting aspects for me was this idea of food of discomfort. Because we focus so much on this idea of comfort food as this a very individual experience to help one self feel better. Which is incredibly relevant during the time of pandemic or even during a time of stressful elections. So when people start talking about foods of discomfort, there's two major things that I've noticed. One is there are foods of actual physical discomfort, foods that you just can't eat for dietary reasons. Whether you're lactose intolerant, PKU, et cetera, that your diet is limited. Jerry: And then there's also foods that, it's not so much that the food itself causes discomfort in some way, it's the concept of food as a whole. Some people have turned their minds now to that ... Let me redo that. A number of people have realized that, "Oh, now I happen to work at home or not work for a while. I'm living well within my needs." And they can see that, now that they've stepped a little bit outside of that daily work that they do from 8:00 to 5:00. So to be able to realize that, oh, there's got to be a number of people who are not able to live within their means. Especially during a time like this, where even as I'm struggling, I'm surviving. And so that's brought a number of weird pieces of discomfort, just conceptual discomfort, to people. And that has caused some to act, some to not act, at different levels. Jolie: I'm curious, in terms of this project, because of the pandemic you had to really work remotely. Entirely, I imagine, including with the number of international collaborators. So how did that affect the way you collaborate and conduct research? Lucy : We were able to actually extend this project much further than most oral history projects. We frequently did not even know where people were when they were responding, initially. And then it does kind of happen, I also was using social media, LinkedIn and the Center for Food and Culture has a website. And that goes out to anyone who's interested, anywhere in the world. And then I was also using Facebook. And so when I was sending out information about this, and people were responding, and then they would tell their friends about it. So I also do a lot of work internationally, especially on culinary tourism, so a lot of my international connections were seeing this, "Oh yeah, this is really interesting." And so they were sending me things. Lucy : Some of those people would just send me a little paragraph, this is what's happening here. Other times, there are people who are using this ... I developed it first as an assignment for an undergraduate class, and then realized, oh, this would actually be very useful to do on a larger scale. I should mention here, too, I did get a little bit of funding that helped to cover honoraria for the researchers. Minimal honoraria, I should say, from the Association for the Study of Food and Society. And then also humanities, the Ohio Humanities. Formally the Ohio Humanities Council, now it's just called the Ohio Humanities, and then also from the Elliot Torium Foundation, a private foundation. Lucy : So when this started, it was just like, oh, this is interesting. Let's see where we can go with it. And then, because of my international work, various colleagues in different places were picking up on it and extending it. And then the researchers themselves, one of them, who also happens to be my daughter, she teaches in Ireland at a university. So she's having some of her students do the project. And she was interviewing some of her colleagues and friends, who tended to be very international. So we're hearing from people who lived in Israel or who had parents in Israel, Norway. And then another one of the researchers is Chinese studying in the US. So he has access to a different group of people. Lucy : So, it's not a model for a social science ethnography. A lot of it was serendipity, but everything was so sudden and unexpected, we just took whatever opportunities there were. I had worked previously with Jerry and so when I started getting this idea, I approached him. I said, "I don't know if there's going to be any funding, would you like to sign on to be the assistant director of this? There's a lot of administrative stuff that I'm going to need." And he said, "Sure." I said, "Now, I don't know about funding, but ..." So I know that Jerry was committed regardless of funding. So he's been a tremendous help through this. Jolie: And Jerry, could you talk a little bit about some of the tasks that you were working on and how the pandemic may have changed the way you had previously worked on projects or worked specifically with Lucy and your relationship prior. Jerry: I guess, for my tasks, there's two halves of it. There's the largely administrative half that, it was at home or not at home. It didn't really make too much of a difference, really, just depended on which wall I was staring at. But then came the other half of it, which was doing interviews and conducting these interviews with all of these participants. Which was a very different way than I'm used to doing field work. My field work that I did for my thesis, I did at a middle school in the area. And I was there with the students for a large portion of the day, and that's what I was used to, is just being around the people. So now all of a sudden, doing these cold calls to people I don't know to say, "Hey, I want to talk about food for awhile," was a very different setting. Jerry: But because people were already isolated and wanted that contact, they were happy to talk with any stranger about anything. Just that piece of human contact was so valuable to everybody that we talked to, and it made some of the conversations we've had absolutely fantastic. And yet my work with Lucy prior, because of the nature of building curriculum, the only real thing that changed was that we couldn't really meet face to face. Which can be, I guess, somewhat solved via Zoom, WebEx, whatever your medium is. Jolie: I think it's interesting that you're talking about, in addition to comfort food, the comfort of community. And even having the occasion to talk about these things is also a real balm in these challenging times. Can you talk a little bit, each of you, about how this project created or changed your sense of community? Lucy : I think for me, I really enjoyed getting to know the different people who were working with me. They're all either master's students, PhD students, or they had recently completed masters. I was able to learn things from them, and that was really nice. I was given a whole different perspective on things from them. And then a lot of people were sending me emails with just brief snippets of their thoughts about comfort food. And some of those really challenged the assumptions that we all have. One of them that I always point out, a woman contacted me and said, "I just wanted you to let you know that my husband and I are both disabled. We've had to live off of food stamps for the last 20 years. We are eating better now than we ever have because the food stamps were expanded," and they were able to go to the farmer's market. Lucy : They were able to use them for fresh produce. And she said, "This is wonderful. I'm healthier now than I ever have been." And that was completely the opposite of what we expected. That's not to paint a rosy picture of this all either, but it automatically challenged some of my assumptions about class in America, and how class is then tied to community. Similarly, someone else, they actually came from an upper middle class background and they lived out in the suburbs. And they said that in order to go shopping, they had to drive to a supermarket. People didn't usually go out walking in their neighborhoods. They had all this money, but they didn't have that kind of casual contact that you could get in a city or in a very small town. Lucy : And they said getting food meant they either had to drive somewhere or have it delivered, and they could afford to do that, and they recognized they had a lot of privilege in being able to do that. But she said, "It's very, very lonely. We don't have the usual kinds of contacts." She didn't realize that going to the grocery store had been a way for her to connect with people. Before, it was just a chore and now suddenly, she recognized that it had been a routine that had provided connection for her. That she didn't recognize that. So two things there, having money definitely made things a lot easier for people, but it didn't automatically give them a sense of community. Lucy : And it did not give them people that they felt that they had a sense of belonging with. And then also, being partly because of the pandemic, people were starting to recognize that these activities around food that we think of as just chores, that they were actually opportunities for very meaningful connections with other people. And suddenly we were missing those. Jolie: What about you, Jerry? Any observations either through the research or your own experience, in these last seven, eight months around community that have caused you to think a little differently? Jerry: Especially in thinking about the interviews, it's surprising how much, when you would start to ask somebody what their comfort food is, how little they would talk about the food. And what the conversation would turn to is about the meals that they would share with people, or the origin of the recipe that they got the recipe for their comfort food from. And then they would bring off into a different story about that, about their grandmother, so on, so forth. And so, I think it goes to show so much of comfort food is tied up in identity and community. Who we decide our tribe is. And so it's really fascinating to hear somebody start to talk about how much they really, really have been going to carbs during this time, and then all of a sudden they're talking about how much they miss their grandchildren or friends, so it really is a lot of focus on the comfort that we get from community. Rather than the comfort that we get from food. Jolie: We're going to take a quick break. Thanks for listening to the Big Ideas podcast. Musical Interlude: Question. Answer. Discussion. Announcer: If you are passionate about Big Ideas, consider sponsoring this program. To have your name or organization mentioned here, please contact us at ics@bgsu.edu. Jolie: Hello and welcome to the Big Ideas podcast. Today I'm talking to Dr. Lucy Long and Jerry Reed, about their research on comfort food ways and how the network and practices around food provide opportunities for connection. One of the things that also strikes me in the discussion about comfort foods and how they come from traditions, from rituals, whether those are religious or cultural, familial, regional, things like that. I'm wondering, are you seeing in your research, new traditions being formed out of these pandemic times? Or revisions of traditions due to these particular circumstances? And if so, can you give us some of those stories? Lucy : I think new traditions are definitely being created, being rediscovered. One of the definitions of comfort food, Julie Loker was a medical sociologist who first started studying comfort food, and she published an article in 2002 and then in 2004 that established comfort food as a scholarly topic. And she identified four different needs that were being fulfilled through comfort food, that then helped people relieve their stress. And one of those was nostalgia, one of them was convenience, and we don't always think of convenience and fast food can be comfort food, because it's very convenient. Foods that offer physical comfort, the hot chocolate on a cold day, and then indulgence, which is what we usually think of. And then about 10 years later, another researcher identified belonging as a need that was being fulfilled. Lucy : So people wanted to eat the foods that other people were eating, because it gave them a sense of belonging to that community. So that gave us a baseline for studying comfort food. And part of what we started finding, the definition of comfort food is foods that help relieve stress. That's the accepted, American definition. What we started finding is that the kinds of stresses that people were dealing with during the pandemic, I think are more of an existential nature. We don't have control over our lives anymore. All of a sudden you have to recognize that nature really is more powerful than humans. So all these myths that, Americans in particular have grown up with, were suddenly being challenged. Lucy : And so, what I started noticing was that comfort food was fulfilling some of these more excess existential needs. Baking bread, I find it amazing that that so many Americans had gluten sensitivities, that bread purchasing was what was dropping. And then all of a sudden, they're all trying to make bread during the pandemic. And I felt like a lot of what that was showing was, people had a sense of control by cooking in general. And they could control the whole process and they could control the outcome. And having that sense of control is very important during the pandemic, when we can't control anything else. Lucy : It also gives people a sense of agency or efficacy. We can actually do something, it's not just control, but we can actually do something to change the outcome of things later. So we can organize our freezer so that we know that we can now make dinners for at least another 30 days. And that makes the individual feel like, oh, okay, I can do something to change the outcome of my future. And then also, one of the things that was fascinating, that the researchers who are doing most of the interviews pointed out to me, a lot of people were finding comfort by giving comfort to other people. Working with food banks, making food for their neighbors, doing things like ... something as simple as going shopping and checking with all their elderly neighbors and friends to see if anyone needed things picked up. Lucy : And that was being nice, but it also fulfilled this existential need to feel like, as an individual, we have significance in life. We can matter. And we can matter to these other people. So we started seeing these other needs, rather than belonging, I like to think about connectedness. Because part of what we were seeing with food was people were connecting, not just to a community. They were connecting to nature, to the seasons. So many people started gardening. I know for the first time I was able to do a CSA because usually I'm not in Bowling Green during the summer. Lucy : So suddenly I was, and I discovered that, oh, okay, now I'm eating zucchini and tomatoes and nothing else for the next three weeks. So now I'm eating butternut squash and potatoes and that connects me to the seasons. It connects me to nature. It connects me to these larger things that help to give a sense of continuity of life. So that kind of connectedness is on an existential level. And it's a much deeper kind of stress than simply, I had a bad day. So some of that was very exciting to me, the idea that people were finding comfort by giving comfort. I find that very optimistic and it gives me a lot of hope. Jolie: Yeah, and I think that's one of the ongoing questions, of what of these changes will stick around after there is a vaccine, after the immediate pandemic crisis has passed. Jerry, are there any other new traditions or observations that you were struck by in some of the interviews you've done that you want to share? Jerry: I guess I can categorize them in three different ways. There's the new traditions, one of the examples I can think of is somebody who has specifically taken time out of their day to have their tea time, specific time, and they specifically have their tea with condensed milk. Which is very popular in Newfoundland. Then there's also traditions that have changed. So one interview we talked about how do you have a Seder dinner online and the guides that have been sent out by the community and recipes that have been sent out. Sadly, people can only have a Seder dinner, but have a Seder dinner for a smaller group, rather than the large portions that are usually served because you have so many people. Jerry: And then there's also this, it's a slight abandonment of tradition, and one of the best examples that I have for this from an interview, would be a couple that ... Their new date night routine was to go to this very fancy Italian restaurant. Well, you can't eat in, so they would get the takeout and eat this very nice, expensive Italian food, in their car out of styrofoam boxes. So it's this, going away from being around all these people ,and it speaks the same idea of it, but it's not really the same thing anymore. And it's also an excuse to get out of the house. It has a new meaning just beyond that. And so that's three different ways that I think about it. Jolie: What possibilities do you see in bringing food into classrooms more often and more directly, whether at the K-12 level or in college. Could you talk a little bit about that? The role of education around food? Jerry: Well, I steal this concept from a botanist I met in Costa Rica. He became a botanist, and then later a tour guide, and said that he studied botany because there's plants everywhere, so you always have something to talk about. And the same is true with food as a human need, you just need food, so there's always something there to talk about. And food is so intrinsically tied into identity, and often in ways that we don't realize, which circles through back to the appropriation piece. When we talk about Southern food, for instance, and even Appalachian food, these two very different categories that both get a lot of their food histories from historically Black cooking and slave cooking. Jerry: And so when we talk about food, at any level within education, all of a sudden we're able to talk about individual identities without even having to bring up ethnicity, race, gender. One of the easiest questions to ask, to start talking about what your identity is without really even talking about identity, but talking about food, is to ask how your family prepares rice. Because most families eat rice, and if you don't eat rice, that says something when it comes to identity. And rice is this really recognizable and very versatile food. And so what you do with it says a lot. And then you can start talking about, when it comes to cultural differences, this aesthetic piece, that your enjoyment of this specific rice dish comes from your history and your family and how grandma makes it. Cultural history. Jerry: So food is this vital piece of connection. And my previous research for my thesis focused on how children use food as a means of creating connection and community amongst themselves. And they're very active in doing this, and examining food, and trading food, and trying to engage each other with food. It's a human need. And so to be able to bring this human need to the forefront of education, to use it as a background for conversations in the humanities, conversations in the sciences, is easy and beneficial because it's very easy to understand. Jolie: I'd like us to conclude by asking you each to reflect on our current moment and what you think might be the broader implications on how we regard food ways. And in particular, what lessons do you hope we learn from this moment about food and connection that we can take forward with us in the after times, whenever they do eventually arrive. Jerry, would you go first? Jerry: So much of how we decide who we are as individuals comes back to food. Not necessarily the individual dishes, but the people we eat with, the people we choose not to eat with, and how we share those meals. And what this time has done has changed that in very significant ways. But I think people are also finding ways to overcome that and rebuild their community, and rebuild the communication that they once had through food, through a variety of other means. And so I think one of these overarching pieces that you should begin to look at next is, we compare the inequalities between these two new systems, because it's easy to see one problem in just one system. But once that changes, it reveals new problems that may even say, the problem that we thought we had? It doesn't exist. That's not even the thing because it's actually this thing. So now is the time to really solidify all of these major problems that then can be focused on. Jolie: What about for you, Lucy? What would you hope we take away from this period in history in thinking differently about food and culture? Lucy : First, I should mention, that listeners can go to the website and actually see ... We have an online exhibit from text and photographs from the interviews. So people can go to www.foodandculture.org, and that website takes them to the exhibit and to the whole project. And they can read the questionnaire and actually respond. And they can also see on that website, the curriculum project, doing it. But I think the thing that I take away from this is the significance of food. That we tend to overlook the power that it has to create connections for us. And those connections both take us inwards and outwards, so that we can connect with our own histories, our own past. It can be something that's very personal, but it also connects us outwardly with larger society, with our larger culture, and internationally. So I think what the pandemic is doing is making us recognize the significance of small things, of everyday things that we normally take for granted. Jolie: Thank you both so much for joining me. I really loved this conversation. Listeners can keep up with ICS by following us on social media at @icsbgsu. You can listen to BiG Ideas wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Please subscribe and rate us on your preferred platform. Our producers are Chris Cavera and Marco Mendoza, with sound editing by Marco Mendoza. Research assistance was provided by Kari Hanlin. Musical Outro: Discussion.

Today, Lucy Branch talks to Jason deCaires Taylor, who is a sculptor, environmentalist, and professional underwater photographer. He has permanent site-specific work spanning several continents and predominantly explores submerged and tidal-marine environments. He's the only sculptor in the series who does not work in bronze, but I can't hold that against him because his work is utterly fascinating. He has a deep understanding of the crisis that humanity is facing with the damage that they're doing to the environment. The fact he enables expression of this through his underwater sculpture is well worth listening to. Join us and BE INSPIRED BY SCULPTURE. You can find images of Jason deCaires Taylor's work and a transcription of the interview at the Sculpture Vulture Blog - SCULPTURE VULTURE If you are looking for a new book, the novel mentioned in this interview is currently available free from Sculpture Vulture. This podcast was brought to you by Antique Bronze, Specialists in the Conservation and Restoration of Sculptural and Architectural Features Snippet from the interview: Lucy: Have you always been creative? Jason: No, not necessarily. No, I actually started my art career much, much later on in life. I studied sculpture at university, but then, after that, I sort of did a whole range of different professions, none of which were particularly creative. But it was only later on in life that I managed to, you know, make it a full-time profession. Lucy: What sent you off to art school then? Jason: Oh, yeah, certainly. I mean I come from a family that...you know, there's many, many painters and sculptors and, generally we've always been involved, in some way, in the creative arts. But yeah, I think it was a really, sort of, natural choice for me to go to university. You know, when you're at that age and you're, sort of, weighing up all the different options of what to do in life, I kind of just went with what I enjoyed the most and what I loved doing, and it was certainly art. Lucy: So, a family, being artistic, who were quite happy for you to do that. That's not always the case. Jason: No, I was very lucky. You know, I had parents that really encouraged me to, sort of, follow my own vocation. Yeah, some people are not as fortunate but, for me, it kind of really worked out. Lucy: What did you do after you left university? Jason: Many different things. It was quite, sort of, an interesting path. I mean I studied sculpture and ceramics at Camberwell College of Arts. And after that, I actually had that dreaded feeling, like, "Oh my god, you know, how am I going to make a living out of this?" I actually found it quite... you know, the equation of taking on jobs maybe that I didn't like too much but they paid the bills. I always wanted the creative part to be free and not constrained in any way, which, I suppose, everybody does. But, practically speaking, it's not always possible. So, I really turned against that and I thought, "I'm just going to try some other different types of jobs and see what I enjoy doing."

The trainer's guide to teaching clients the fundamentals of health What does it take to make clients healthy? Is it just movement, or is it more?  And is there a way we can make pursuing health for our clients simpler? Make the coaching process simpler? That's why I'm juiced up to bring you Lucy Hendricks for this week's talk.   In this podcast, you'll learn: What it really takes to keep your clients healthy How to create a gym culture that values health, sleep, nutrition, and more What are the pillars of health? Which three habits should brand new clients focus on in their first year of training How mindful movement can give you all the benefits of yoga without the drawbacks Why you should use the "rule of 3" with your exercise cueing The benefits of creating a consistent approach with your clients Why coaching the general population is important What is the future of healthcare? Check this interview out if you want your coaching to be simpler and all-encompassing! Click here to watch the interview. Below you'll find the show notes and modified transcripts. Learn more about Lucy Hendricks Lucy's website can be found here. Enhancing Life Virtual Gym (get 2 weeks of mindful movement free!) here.  Instagram: lucy_hendricks Bio Lucy Hendricks is a gym owner, coach, educator, and speaker who not only takes a holistic approach to personal training but is known for her ability to take complicated topics and making them digestible for fitness and rehab professionals. She helps coaches who have clients that have been hindered by movement limitations get back to what they love. Show notes Here are links to things mentioned in the interview: Seth Oberst - He's an awesome PT who specializes in trauma work. You can check out a course review I did on him here. 90/90 Hip Lift - An exercise commonly used in movement prep. Crozat Appliance - This is the appliance I have in my mouth for palatal expansion. Modified Transcripts Zac: When I say "Personal Trainer," what does that mean to you? Lucy: Just a joke of a career. Zac: Really? Why do you think it's a joke of a career? Lucy: Because I feel like it's based on a really faulty foundation of all this from the start of how we get people in the industry, how we train them, what expectations we give them, how we train them to do their job and the expectation of what they're able to accomplish with people's health. Zac: You know, when you reflect back on your career and how you got started in this industry, did you ever get hit with that like, I'm working with some people and it's like, "Whoa, this person needs a whole lot more than what I learned in my beginning phases of my career."? Lucy: I wouldn't say there was one time where it hit me. It was more of reflecting back on the first five years of my career. Always feeling like a fraud. Because right from the very beginning I started getting invited to podcasts, seminars and people always ask the question, "What do you do to get your clients results?" Which I always hated because I was really good at getting people to lift without pain. But when people say "Results," they insinuate that you got them, their fat loss results, sleep results, just got them healthy. And for the first five years, I always avoided that question or didn't really answer it, beat around the bush, and went to the strength training without pain. And then I realized that the expectation that personal trainers are able to get people to the end result, which is completely healthy, is really unrealistic because no one has the skillsets for that. Building a gym that appreciates holistic fitness Zac: What kind of things did you first shift to that were outside of strength training without pain? Lucy: I would say the functional medicine world and those concepts of working on your sleep, eating real food, at the time gluten-free, sugar-free, trying to go back to what your ancestors ate, and stress management, which I didn't really understand either other than promoting people need to chill out. Zac: Of course, take a chill pill. [caption id="attachment_13364" align="aligncenter" width="500"] Although I personally prefer red pill (Image by digipictures from Pixabay)[/caption] Lucy: It should be less stressed. And telling people that meditation is important, but never actually getting them to do it. Maybe a handful of people tried it or tried other stress-relieving activities, but there was never a process. It was more trying to create the culture where we believed in all these other lifestyle factors that needed to be addressed, but never actually had a system for it. Zac: And I know you like to have a systematic and consistent approach you might say. So, once you ironed out the kinks, so to speak with somebody approaches, as opposed to just say, "Try and relax" when it comes to stress management or meditation's important, sleep's important, but not having those processes in place. What was your process like of making that more systematic in your community that you train? Lucy: I wouldn't take this as advice, but we first started out with workshops. So, I remember we did the first sleep workshop probably three years ago and no one had signed up. So I gave away eight semi-private or something crazy without thinking, just wanting them to come so bad to the sleep seminar, believing if they worked on their sleep, they'll get better results. And then they'll stay longer, which the money won't be an issue. And clients knew that that was a horrible business choice, so they ended up coming, but never picked up the sessions. People did buy blue-blocking glasses, the sunlight lamp, and started walking in the morning and started turning off their overhead lights at night. So, it did change a little bit and some people got results. What really went well was the following year. We did a sleep challenge and we didn't want to attach the winning to results just because everybody's so different. And that's one thing that makes it so hard is you can't really control the outcome in a group setting unless you had one on one coaching, but that takes so much attention and skill sets that most trainers don't have to control a bunch of other aspects that influence someone's ability to get results. So, what we ended up doing was we attached the outcome to participation. So, everybody had a checklist of, I think, 12 things that correlate to sleep hygiene or influence sleep hygiene. And you had the check, I forget so many each day posted on Facebook. And each time you posted a picture, you got your name and a chance to win an Oura ring, which is like a $300 ring. And that worked really well. A lot of people got amazing results better than I thought they would. People who struggled to get up in the morning were able to get up in the morning with no problem. People started drinking less coffee. People started going to sleep faster. We had another client who started pushing herself harder with running. So, she felt that she was working out too hard, but really, she wasn't recovering enough. So, when she started sleeping better, she found herself being able to push harder in the gym. So that was really cool. Zac: I think it's cool that instead of focusing on the outcome, you focus on the process. Because with something like meditation, I know you did a meditation challenge as well. How do you define a successful meditation? Whereas you were able to get people to focus more so on just habits people need to do to be healthy. What constitutes healthy sleep? And it's these keys. And I mean, that's fascinating that you're able to get the buy-in on that. You had good retention rates with that as well? The whole challenge? Lucy: With the challenge? Yes. Zac: It seems like once you take the outcome, so to speak out of the process, it's like people still feel successful. And I think that's absolutely brilliant. Lucy: And people are competitive. So, the minimum was you have to do X amount, but then sure enough, the first person that filled out the entire sheet went on there and got a bunch of praise from us on Facebook. And then other people started going through the entire sheet as well. A lot of people kept up with some of the routines. But anything that pushes the needle in the right direction when it comes to health. And that's what we try to teach people is you can do just about anything and you will get results. So, what we try to do is at least establish the basics of all these other life factors. So that way, we can start pushing the needle in the direction of better health and more sustainable results. The pillars of health a beginner client should achieve Zac: What are some of the key habits you want a new client to exhibit within the first year? Lucy: If I were to pick three, I would say getting a movement routine, which can also mean exercise routine, where they're consistent and they enjoy it. Where it's no longer a struggle to attend the gym. So now you don't have to sit there and "Do I really want to go, or should I just skip this week?" So once going to the gym once or twice a week becomes an easy choice, that would be something that I would want in the first year. The next two would be finding a meditation practice and getting them to teach themselves to be present and train their body to pay attention to what's going on inside and with their thoughts. And the third thing I would say would probably be walking and spending time outside. So, if I were to pick three of those would be the three. Zac: Why in your eyes are those three the most important? I think the movement practice makes sense because that's where people are coming to you for. But as a trainer, that is our bread and butter. So, what about the other two? Why do you think walking is important and why do you think meditation is important and the first things that you put? Lucy: Movement and exercise part is our bread and butter. If that wasn't a priority, then we probably wouldn't have clients. We are really good at getting people to enjoy exercise. I think a reason why people can't stay consistent on a schedule is because they don't enjoy it. We focus on making training feel good. The second one is building a meditation practice, training themselves to pay attention because a lot of people have either maladaptive beliefs, catastrophic thinking, unhealthy behaviors that really are impacting their ability to get healthy. And if you can't sit there and the present moment and pay attention to your thoughts, or even recognize that you have the behaviors that you're doing or practicing in or the self-awareness. [caption id="attachment_13365" align="aligncenter" width="500"] And if you meditate just right, you too will become psychedelic! (Image by 3333873 from Pixabay)[/caption] Self-awareness is the first step to changing any type of behavior, thought, or lifestyle that you're wanting to work on. If people don't have that, it's so hard to even change anything. Our goal is sustainable results. Meditation helps build the foundation required to change all of these thoughts and behaviors that people are having. Walking is to get people moving throughout the day. And that helps with our number one goal, which is getting people consistent in the gym. What we find is if people can walk and move outside of the gym, they're able to recover faster from their workouts. That makes their workouts feel better, they progress a lot faster, which gets them excited. If they're not moving outside of the gym and they're only exercising and only moving at the gym, then these people will progress a little slower. So, it motivates them less. Zac: With the meditation in particular, because inevitably, especially when someone's starting out, you are going to fall off the wagon in some way, shape, or form. And having the self-awareness component and the ability to bring it back to whatever it is you are focusing on, probably helps them get back on track sooner than not. Lucy: Oh, 100%. And then that's what you need. You need the awareness to see the patterns of "When I stopped sleeping and I don't pay attention to X, Y, and Z. When I don't do my movement routine, or when I don't do my morning routine of reading, getting my coffee, doing my meditating, I now notice that I go to the gym less, I start bingeing at night." So, having this awareness of where you dropped off and what are the things that you need to do to get back is everything. Because if you don't have that, you don't know why you failed. So, it was just, "I failed. I suck." And then that's it. So, you don't even have the keys to even get back to where you were, Mindful movement Lucy: So, the idea of the mindful movement service that I created started out when I attended Seth Oberst's class. [caption id="attachment_13366" align="aligncenter" width="500"] Ahh the gold ole days[/caption] Zac: Yes. Lucy: Where he first introduced the idea of how the body and stress and trauma interact together. And how trauma and stress influences what you see in the body. And how you can use a movement practice, meditation practice, and even things like yoga to impact someone's stress or trauma. And how both of them are really connected. So that was when I first got introduced to that idea. And I worked with him online where he did some of his work with me, and then I took a yoga class. I am an ex-gymnast and super flexible, strong, and I take cues well. And yoga was very therapeutic for me. It was a time for 45 minutes for me to only pay attention to what was going on in my body. The muscles that I felt stretching, the muscles that I felt working, the cues that they were telling me to do, I was paying attention to that. And I got immense benefit with it when it comes to the struggles that I was having with my mental illness. But then I noticed that the people that really benefit from it are people like me who are really flexible, take cues well, are strong and have a background probably in gymnastics, ballet, dance, or ice skating. Zac: You got to express to yourself what you already knew how to do in just a unique way. Lucy: Yes. At the same time, I was starting to see the stuff that I was doing with our clients from a different perspective, because I train a lot of people in pain and who have an auto-immune disease. When they would try to cancel on me because they had a flare up, whether their back flared up for the fifth time in a few months or their Hashimoto's flared up. So, they were really fatigued. I would try to get them in the gym anyway. And instead of their full-on workout, I would let them do breathing exercises for about 45 minutes. So, with the information that I had and the outcomes that I was noticing, I thought for the longest time that because they did all the breathing exercises from a biomechanic standpoint, they were feeling really good because we just increased all these movement options. Which there's some truth to that, for sure. But I think I was giving biomechanics way more credit with the information that I had. Although I never did those breathing sessions myself, my client reactions were very positive, so I kept doing it. Sometimes they would even ask for those sessions because they enjoyed them that much. And they would take me aside and like shake my hand or like hug me. Like, "Thank you so much for letting me come in and do that." So, when I learned about stress and trauma and all of that stuff, and I took the yoga class, I realized maybe it's not all biomechanics. Maybe they felt so great because they just meditated for a whole entire hour. Zac: Yes. Lucy: And when they stopped paying attention to their body, there I was reminding them, "Keep tucking, keep reaching, don't lose it, keep exhaling." Because I'm very detailed with my coaching. And that's when I started thinking that I could create something or a service that gave me what yoga gave me with the detailed coaching and the way I see the body, which is really good at meeting people where they're at, who don't move well. People who don't take cues well, people who are deconditioned, people who are uncoordinated with their body, people who can't handle multiple instructions at once, which is about everybody. Which is most people. And that's when I kind of blended both of those worlds and created a service called mindful movement. Zac: You've essentially made yoga so much easier to execute for a lot of different people, which allows those less flexible people to get similar benefits. because you get a wide variety of clients. Have you noticed if mindful movement carries over into the gym? Lucy: Their ability to take cues. Zac: So, it's made your job even easier, even though you already make it easy with your coaching? Lucy: It's crazy. I can just sit down and not do anything. And I've been talking to them about it all week. Last week. "Will someone mess something up because this is way too easy?" So, we started the service last year, during the meditation challenge. It has since evolved from then; from the one-on-one sessions, and then into actual classes once the pandemic hit. Zac: What's a typical session like? So, you got, say, it's the first time someone is attending your mindful movement. What does that entail? Lucy: Oh, I would say it's very similar to like a strength training session with two or three try sets. We pick three different exercises, go through them. I don't do reps. I do more for time just because everybody moves at a different pace. It's a lot of the same cues that I use on the training floor, which, if you're watching this, it's focusing on the stack position, focusing on all of the skills or being able to coordinate your body in a way where you're achieving certain positions and certain moves. [caption id="attachment_13193" align="alignnone" width="810"] The only way to talk to Zac[/caption] I'm introducing one cue at a time and that's all they're paying attention to. And that's why, what I said before, it's making my job easier because that's all they have to focus on is that one cue. So, an example of that would be one that I like to start with is in the supine position with their feet in a 90/90 position. Usually, when you introduce this exercise, people try to put everything together all at once: "Okay, tuck here and I'll fully exhale and I'll keep the ab tension and reach and don't shrug and don't lose a tuck." It's usually a complete failure. Or it's not a failure because you're really good at coaching, but the client is not competent in that move. You might've gotten them there, but they don't even know how they got there. Zac: Yes. They need you to complete the tasks.. Lucy: I did that in the past so much, and it was probably an ego boost of like, I just got this person in this position. But then when I asked them "How was that?" They're like, "I don't know what just happened." Or they you them, "Where did you feel that?" And they say, "Oh, I don't know. Let me do that again." Zac: Yes. Lucy: So, with mindful movement, what I ended up doing was retracting all of those cues and introducing one cue at a time. And it's the example, the 90/90 position legs don't do anything. All they're focusing on is that full exhale. So, it's in through the nose, full exhale, and I'm telling them the count, try to get the 10 seconds and then just breathe in however. And then back over and over again. Breathe in through your nose, full breath out. And the goal is, each exhale you're going further and further and you're trying to count to like 10 to 12 seconds. And that's all they're focusing on. The way I see it is like taking a dance class. It's, you're focusing on like taking a step forward and taking a step back and taking a step forward. And you're just really getting used to like what that feels like. And then I build up on top of that. And so that's the first set. The second set, I tell them to do the same thing, "Full exhale, at the end of the exhale, you should feel some abs. So, hold that air out and even say in your head, holding onto the tension and then letting it go." And then that's what they're focusing on for, I think probably two minutes that I let them go. Zac: So, you don't even mention Ab tension at all with the first round. It's just like the component of exhaling getting air out. And then you're building on top of that? Lucy: Yes. Or I might check in like, towards the end, like "Everybody feeling abs at the end?" Because they're holding their air out. And I just get that confirmation of they are feeling abs. And if someone is like waving their hand saying, "No," I'll try to address it there. Like "Try to exhale a little harder. So, if you're not feeling abs exhale harder." So, I'm getting the steps that are required to get me to the end goal, which is a full exhale with the ab tension and then breathing underneath that tension. So, they do that for the first set. Second set, they're doing the same thing holding for five seconds. And I also give them the right expectation. Like "This is going to be uncomfortable. If you feel uncomfortable, you're doing it right." Which I think coaches fail with that as well. So, in their head, they're literally differentiating. And I tell them, that's their focus of holding onto the tension and then letting it go. Holding onto the tension and letting it go. So same thing. Like "Step forward, step back." Because when people can hold onto the tension and breathe in, usually the reaction is like, "Did I do it right?" Because they have no idea. So, the third round, same thing: "Holding onto the tension, but this time keep the tension." They should know what that tension feels like, because they just let it go for like two minutes. So, breathe underneath the tension and then back to the full exhale. So, I'm building up to that end goal. Usually in that triset, I'm also doing pelvic tuck where they're only focusing on "Rolling up the hips, feeling hamstrings and letting go. Rolling up the hamstrings or the hips feeling hamstrings and letting go." And sometimes I'll put those together. It's whatever I'm feeling, I usually do it on the fly, depending on who's in class. Zac: Kind of your style. Lucy: Yes. Zac: Say you got a bunch of newbies, which I would assume you're triset with them be one move to focus on the tuck, one to exhale, then reaching for the third. Once you have all that built up, then what does the second try set look like? Like if someone gets it with those, do you try to combine or do you focus on other things? Lucy: I will usually move on to things like all fours. So, we'll either do some inverted quadrupeds or quadrupeds tucking, and where I tell them "The three main things that you're doing in the entire class, which is training your body to pay attention and being coordinated with your body." Which is also a huge thing. Instead of telling them "You're learning how to do things right." They're focusing on a cue that I'm giving them. "So, I want you to do something a certain way. I want you to roll your hips instead of picking up your hips. So, you have to pay attention to that." I'm giving them a visual to pay attention to. Deflating their body, inflating, peeling, melting, and then I'm also giving them a feeling. So, if they're doing it the way I'm asking them to do it, I should be calling out the right muscles. https://youtu.be/7SQQeEuTPo0 "You should be feeling your abs at the end of the exhale, or you should be feeling your glutes and hamstrings at the top of the tuck." I'm telling them what to pay attention to. After we do the things like supine, reaching, exhaling, I usually move on to quadrupeds where I'm telling them to pay attention to their back pockets. So that's one of my favorite Quadruped tucking where they're inhaling, pulling the back pockets down, exhaling, pulling the back pockets back up. And I do, which is also taboo for people who are into breathing extension. So yes, don't freak out. I do let people arch their back, but this is what I say. I tell them to "Work with what you have." Because I do want people to be able to arch their back and be okay, even if it's a little bit uncomfortable. So like, this is what the class is for, is being able to move your body and be fine. We're not loading it. What I say is "Work with what you have. Move as much as possible. As long as it feels good." So, for me, it's going to be very extreme. I can arch my back all the way and then tuck all the way. But someone who's a little stiff. I don't want them to look like me and I don't want them to think that they need to look like me. They're working with what they have and I'm telling them, "You are differentiating between tucking and untucking. Your back pockets are either down or they're up. So, if you get distracted, where are the back pockets? Either up or they're down." And then I'll move into some supine, like putting it together, like supine reaching like an ISO dead bug and working with that. And then a lot of squatting. Zac: Squatty squats. I'm sure. [caption id="attachment_13367" align="alignnone" width="810"] The only way to squat![/caption] Lucy: Yes. Squat holds. Where they're focusing on the same thing, the same move that they've been practicing, the same exhaling, the same feed. So, I'm just telling them all the things to just pay attention to. And we progressed from there. Zac: This is nice. You give an external cue, back pockets. You give an internal cue, tuck your hips. And then you almost get like an inter receptive cue. Like, "What am I feeling within me?" And that's good because if someone doesn't hit one and two, they might hit three and then they'll know that they're doing it correctly. So, I think that's really good to build in that redundancy because it makes your job easier. Lucy: Yes. And what I learned actually recently, I've always done the three things. But now I see it or I can see why it works. Apparently, people need three things to see a pattern. So, if you can describe something three different ways, then they can almost see the big picture of - if I just say "You're reaching your chest away from your hands." Like that might not mean anything. But if I give it three different ways, like "Picture the space between your hands and your rib cage, getting away from each other. Think of your upper back getting wide. Think of everything being pushed back." And then you're kind of painting the picture so they can see the cue. Because they don't know anatomy, they don't know anything. Zac: No. They don't. Lucy: And they're not aware of their own body. So, you're trying to just bring the awareness to them. Zac: Well, I imagine it probably reduces the frustration. I've ran into coaching someone and asking if they feel a specific area. They'll say, "Well, no." And then they think they're doing it wrong. But if they're feeling the sense that they're doing this movement, or they're envisioning this thing happening, it was within their bodies and you can almost point them towards, "Well, those are activating when you do that. If you can sense that your body's doing that, then you're winning! Side note. How pissed were you when you found out that the rule of threes was a thing and not something you came up with? Lucy: Really pissed. Zac: There's nothing original, happens to me all the time! Lucy: Yes. I had books on it. Zac: Really? I've heard of rule of thirds in the video. Or when you're doing PowerPoints where you need to have like two or like three things filled on the PowerPoint and they leave one spot blank. A consistent approach to coaching Zac: Why is a consistent approach to movement and training so damn important? Lucy: It develops a training model that produces clients that are so independent, making your job really easy. You create a training experience where people can socialize and you can catch up with clients because they don't need to be babysat. I noticed all of these benefits when I went to the extreme thinking that neutral spine was the only way people need to be lifting because that's the safe way to lift. Even though I was wrong in that aspect of seeing the body that way and not fixating too much on biomechanics, I couldn't ignore all the benefits from that approach. So, I had to figure out how to continue to have this approach and not have all these negative aspects? Because one of the benefits is the client independence, which is crazy. The other benefit is people can get strong, but not be so consistent in the gym, because everything looks very similar, even though an offset step up is different than a goblet hold step up or a higher step up with a zercher hold. It's still very similar. Even though we're loading different tissues, we're loading similar moves and similar tissues. So, people can get strong and also experienced novelty. I can have a step up increase in weight, but then have different variations in step-ups. Same thing with squatting. If I build a consistent squat that looks the same pretty much every time, I am going to be able to progress that person by doing different types of squats. That's how we're able to have people who've been strength training with us for nine years and they're still being challenged. And we are still able to find things that they struggle with. And then two, it's not just about weight. You have all this sense of accomplishment throughout your training program every six weeks, that's not just attached to how much weight you're doing. If we have an exercise that needs to be done a certain way, you now have a goal. Well, half kneeling cable pull down, needs to be done with me keeping my half kneeling position, me pulling down without shrugging without arching my back. So, I have to keep all of these things and do it this way for the next six weeks and feel that gets stronger, feel more coordinated or more efficient. https://youtu.be/1x_Qc-41wEs Even though technically you could totally do more weight if it was just a seated cable pulled down, but our clients don't see strength training that way. They see all these different exercises like a skill that they get to learn. And I kind of paint that picture like, "Ooh, half kneeling cable pull down. That's what you get to learn and get stronger in for the next six weeks." Even though it's not going to be as challenging technically as a seated cable pull-down where you can totally get more volume and more weight. Zac: This challenge coincides with what you're trying to build with your mindful movement. It's mindful movement under intensity, staying attunded with your body while lifting heavy weights. With you having consistency with your coaching, that it allows for people to not just want to work with you, but with other trainers who think similarly. Lucy: Yes. It allows you to share clients. And you can still be your unique coach and have your own personality and people will have favorites. But the problem that a lot of people run into is you cancel when your favorite coach goes out of town and that's what you don't want to happen. That used to happen to us. If I would go out of town, people wouldn't want to coach with Dave, or he went out of town, his people didn't want to be coached by me. So being able to have this consistency of how you provide a training experience and how you coach things needs to be pretty consistent. The importance of working with people in pain or autoimmune diseases Lucy: It just feels really rewarding to provide a training experience that people who otherwise wouldn't like to lift at all or had never stepped in the gym or never thought of themselves as lovers of exercise, get them to enjoy a training experience. Or get them to say things like, "I can't believe I like coming here or I can't believe it rained and I didn't cancel." I get them to that point. I get these people who have never stepped in the gym or have had horrible experiences and they literally say they hate exercise. And I know that in a month or two or three, however long it takes, they're going to be a different person. I don't tell them that just because no one's going to believe it. But I know. Zac: You can see the vision down the line and they're focus right now. Lucy: Yes. And the joke that I tell some of my clients, because the people that we do attract are very similar. It's so cool that we have people who would much rather be at home with their spouse, drinking wine or smoking a bowl and watching TV and eating pizza. But instead, they're here training twice a week, every week, pretty consistently. Sometimes they fall off because work of deadlines and shit happens. But we created an experience where those types of people are here. Not the gym rats, the meatheads, the people who enjoy fitness, the people who are advertised to join the industry. It's everyone else, regular people. The future of healthcare Lucy: I would want to redefine what it means to be a personal trainer or what it means to be in this industry. And redefine what it takes to be healthy. Because I think come to more of an agreement where perfection is not the goal and being healthy doesn't mean that your diet is perfect, you're always sleeping well, that you never do any drugs, that you never drink, that you never have times where you come in, hung over, that you have times where you spend too much time with your friends on the weekends. Zac: Play video games too long. [caption id="attachment_13368" align="aligncenter" width="500"] We all have our vices (Image by Rafael Javier from Pixabay)[/caption] Lucy: Yes. You eat too much pizza. You travel too much and you don't take care of yourself or you went on too many vacations. So, we're like, what do we mean to be healthy? And redefining that. And then creating a environment, like a gym environment where that's what we push for, where we understand that people are social creatures, we understand that people cope in certain ways. And just because we think it's unhealthy, it doesn't mean that people should be shamed for it. Like what's the difference between you drinking too much caffeine, which most trainers do, and then a client smoking weed? Or drinking a glass of wine at dinner? Like what's the difference there? Zac: Or drugs. Lucy: And also understanding that there's so many factors in someone's life that personal trainers have zero control over. So, all we can do is support them. Because I think the idea now is if you see something that's out of your scope or a roadblock that's preventing your client from getting results, like sleep apnea or severe mental illness, the idea that you can just easily refer out and things are taken care of is like from a fantasy world, because that doesn't happen. One, people might not be able to afford it. Two, they may not even do it. I've asked someone to get a sleep study five times and with three different people and they won't do it. But I still have to train them. Or someone might have severe mental illness and they're already seeing a therapist, but they're still struggling. Or people are still in back pain, even though they've gone to the Mayo clinic, Cleveland clinic, seen multiple physical therapists, pain management doctors, they're still in pain, and I still have to train them. So, looking at all these other factors and realizing that we don't have control over that. So what we have to do is learn about them, understand how it works or how it's impacting our clients and just figure out how to support them best and create a service that meets them where they're at. Sum up Exercise, meditation, and walking are the first three areas a brand new client should focus on. Mindful movement involves breaking down specific movement components to eventually progress through the weight room. A consistent approach to coaching similar movements qualities allows for smart progression, variety, and better transfer between trainers. The future of healthcare involves meeting clients where they are at and supporting them in any way they can.

Today, Lucy Branch talks to Hamish Mackie,  brilliant contemporary wildlife sculptor who has works all over the UK including Cambridgeshire, Derbyshire, Cornwall and London as well as abroad. He recently won The Public Monuments and Sculpture Association Marsh Award for Excellence in Public Fountains with The Goodman's Fields Horses sculptures in London. His work captures the personalities of all kinds of wildlife and no animal escapes his interest from owls to tigers,  hares boxing to camels.  Hamish discusses his creative journey and how he became a professional sculptor, his inspiration for his work and his love of bronze. Join us and BE INSPIRED BY SCULPTURE.  You can find images of Hamish Mackie's work and a transcription of the interview at https://sculpturevulture.co.uk If you are looking for your next great read, please consider one of my novels which you can find out more about at Sculpture Vulture. This podcast was brought to you by Antique Bronze Snippet from the interview: Lucy: Have you always been creative? Hamish: Yeah, I have. I grew up on a farm in Cornwall so early in my life I was always outdoors doing things on the farm, which was actually quite creative and practical. I used to make endless camps in the hay barn and that type of thing. Always doing things with my hands, life on the farm was full of creativity. It was great fun. Lucy: So it was a real outdoorsy, a kind of Gerald Durrell experience. Hamish: Yeah. Mum used to have a bell that meant it was either time to eat or time to go to bed. That used to be rung outside when it was time to come in. Lucy: That's fantastic. I need one of those. Though my children would just ignore me. Hamish: We've taken it up here. We've got one in the house instead of screaming at the children. It's good. Lucy: Brilliant. So was there a creative aspect like art or drawing that went alongside all the playing and things like that? Hamish: There was to a degree. I was lucky to have a really inspiring art teacher when I was young. I've never been particularly into words and English, but I've always been creative and I've always loved making things. My art teacher at school was very supportive of that. To the extent that when I was about 14, I made a little cow head out of wax and cast it in lead myself over an outdoor fire. I don't think health and safety would agree with it nowadays. So yeah, I had always enjoyed making things and I was surrounded by wildlife and animals on the farm so there was always lots of early inspiration. Lucy: But it wasn't your mum doing anything at home of that ilk? Or a family member that showed you the way? Hamish: Weirdly no, not really. Dad was in the army and then a farmer. Mum isn't a painter or anything. My grandfather was quite creative, he was always making things but that certainly wasn't considered the norm. I think a lot of our great grandparents' generation would have sketched and drawn and made things in the evenings when they weren't watching telly. Other than that, no, there's no history of it in the family. But my brother is also doing it so that's another weird one.

Hazel Reeves is a brilliantly talented sculptress who tells stories in bronze. In recent years she has secured several prestigious commissions among them the Sir Nigel Gresley sculpture in Kings Cross, London commemorating the engineer and innovator of steam trains, and the Cracker Packer statue dedicated to the women who have worked in the Carrs biscuit factory, now McVitie's in Carlisle, for over a hundred years. I've been keen to talk to Hazel ever since I was involved in doing some preventive conservation work on her incredible sculpture of Emmeline Pankhurst, Our Emmeline, in the centre of Manchester. Today we discuss her creative journey and why she loves telling stories in bronze. Join us for this lively chat and to look at examples of Hazel's work and read the transcription of the interview, go to www.sculpturevulture.co.uk/hazelreeves/ Sample of Interview (Transcription) Lucy: Today, I thought I'd kick off our chat by asking when she first felt drawn to creating sculpture? Hazel: Well, I think you have to go back to when I was younger and I was desperate to go to art school and my parents said, ‘No!' And so, I sort of forgot about that artistic career for many years. Then I was in the Dominican Republic working with the UN on women's rights and I suddenly got back in touch with all the things I was passionate about: music, drumming, dancing, arts. When I came home, it just came to me that I was going to be a portrait sculptor, which was quite bizarre because I'd never actually done any sculpting nor any portraits, but it's the only time in my life I've actually suddenly realized I had a calling. Lucy: Did your parents have nothing to do with the arts? Was it very alien to them? Is that why they discouraged it or was it that it wasn't a proper job? Hazel: Oh, all of the above. According to my mum, art is a luxury and you only did arts if you couldn't do anything else. My eldest sister was already at art school and I think they were also worried about having two penniless artists in the family. So it was like, "No, you're more academic. You could go off and go to college." And so it was many years later that actually I rediscovered that this is what I should always have been doing. This is my journey and I wouldn't be the sculptor I am now if I hadn't been on that journey. Lucy: So it definitely was something that came to...you'd had to sort of squash it down for quite a long time. I wonder what it was about the Dominican Republic that brought it all to the forefront of your mind. Is it the environment there? Is it a creative place? Hazel: It's a very creative place. I really got into the Afro-Dominican folkloric scene there. That's very much about their music and the dance but it was also a very vibrant place, a very creative place, a very musical place. Also, you're completely out of your normal environment. Making that transition from the UK to that sort of country, where there is deep poverty in some places, but also working with the UN was a tremendous experience. It was particularly the nightlife and the nights out dancing that just really sort of shook my whole system up. It was like, ah, yeah, I'm actually not somebody to be sitting at a desk. Get your free novel from https://sculpturevulture.co.uk/a-rarer-gift-than-gold/ where sculpture is always at the heart of the story.

Lucy: So... so! Ready for our coffee? Or do you prefer I came back after the gym? Lucy: Então... você está pronto para nosso café? Ou você prefere que eu volte depois da ginástica? Ray: You went to the gym yesterday, didn't you? Ray: Você foi a ginástica ontem não? Lucy: Sure. I go every day. Lucy: Sim. Eu vou todos os dias. Ray: Every day? Ray: Todos os dias? Lucy: Yes, it's great. The gym has state of the art equipment, space-age machines which give you a total body workout in less time! Lucy: Sim, ótimo, A ginástica tem os equipamentos de ponta, que dá você é um trabalho total para o corpo em menos tempo. Lucy: When you start you get a wellness key which you plug into the machine that you use. Lucy: Quando você começa ganha uma chave de bem-estar que você conecta nas máquinas que você vai utilizar. Ray: A key? Ray: Uma chave? Lucy: Yes It keeps track of what you do, the calories burned and the heart rate. Lucy: Sim e ela fica rastreando tudo que você faz, a queima de calorias e a frequencia cardíaca. Ray: I see. Ray: Entendi. Lucy: These machines make exercising interesting and fun. For instance, they have a treadmill which has integrated satellite TV and radio, which makes your training more entertaining. Lucy: e a essas máquinas tornam os exercícios interessantes e agradáveis, por exemplo eles tem uma esteira que tem TV por satélite rádio integrados que faz com que o seu treinamento seja mais agradável Ray: Yeah, sounds great. Ray: Sim, parece ótimo. Lucy: Have a look at my biceps! Lucy: Dá uma olhada no meu bíceps! Ray: I think the basic concepts are the same: lose weight, gain strength, keep healthy. Right? Ray: eu acho que os básicos conceitos são os mesmos: perder peso ganhar força se manter saudável certo? Lucy: Yes, but the modern equipment allows you to achieve the same results in a shorter period of time. sim mas os modernos equipamentos permite que você alcance os mesmos resultados num período menor de tempo. Ray: I don't particulary like all this hi-tec stuff. I still prefer natural activities like jogging. Ray: eu particularmente não gosto muito desse dessas coisas de alta tecnologia. Eu ainda prefiro na atividade naturais como correr. Lucy: Hmm Ray: There's nothing as enjoyable as jogging outside on a sunny maybe listening some good music. Ray:não há nada mais agradável do que dar uma corrida no ar livre num dia de sol talvez Ouvindo uma música boa Lucy: With your Ipod plugged in right? Lucy: conectado no seu iPod certo Ray: Yes! Ray: Certo! Lucy: You see? You rely on modern technologies too! Lucy: tá vendo você também confia na tecnologia moderna! xxx ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT AND FITNESS Today we're going to learn some terms and verbs related to the gym, physical exercises and high-tech equipment. Hoje nós vamos aprender alguns termos e verbos relacionados a ginástica, exercícios físicos e equipamentos de alta tecnologia. To Ray's surprise Lucy goes to the gym everyday. Para a surpresa de Ray Lucy vai ginástica todos os dias. The gym is, remember?, short for gymnasium. A place where you take classes of aerobics, martial arts, Etc.. Gym você lembra?, a forma abreviada de ginásio. O lugar onde você tem aulas de aeróbica, lutas marciais e et cetera. or just exercise your body and increase your strength. ou apenas exercita seu corpo e aumenta sua força. Lucy's gym has a state-of-the-art equipment. state-of-the-art means very modern. A academia (ginásio) de Lucy frequenta tem os equipamentos state-of-the-art . State-of-the-art significa muito modernos. Using the most recent technology . Equipment indicates a set of tools or machines Que utilizam as mais recentes tecnologias. Equipamentos indicam uma série de máquinas ou ferramentas. Space-age machine is of Lucy's gym give you a total body workout in a short time Máquinas da era espacial da academia de Lucy dão a você um trabalho total para o seu corpo em curto tempo. Workout means exercising our

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: Interview with Hilary DeCesare [music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders and I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology or NCWIT and we're back with another interview and a series of interviews that we've had with just tremendous women who have started technology companies. With me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi, Lucy, it is really great to be here. A lot of people ask what does w3w3 Business Stock radio do. Well we've been around for 14 years. So that was way back in the early days and we have partners like NCWIT certainly one of our most popular and most important to us. I must say that we're extremely proud to be able to help promote young women in technology. Lucy: Well we've got another great interview today as I've said. It's with Hillary DeCesare, who is the founder of Everloop which we're going to find out in a minute. It is just a terrific company for kids. So she is a digital parenting expert and a mother herself. She recognized the unmet need of a safe environment for children to share, to talk, to chat on the Internet. She came up with the idea of Everloop, an idea around privacy protection and mentoring technologies to ensure the safety of youngsters. This is a very comforting thought. I know Larry, you and I are both parents. So it's nice to know that something like Everloop is out there. Perhaps Hillary will tell us some about their innovative technology called loops, looping, how children join loops that they share common interests. They talk to each other and of course that is all with parental approval. So welcome Hillary. We are very happy to talk with you today. Hillary DeCesare: Thank you for having me. Lucy: So tell us a little bit about what's going on at Everloop. Hillary: Well as you mentioned, Everloop is a social media platform and it is designed for kids under 13. There is a huge craze going on out there where kids are using devices far earlier than even two year older children of today. So you've got kids as young as 5, 6, 7, going on their parents' smartphone, the iPads, desktops. What we're trying to do is make sure that when these kids finally go out into the wild wild Internet and they are exposed to adults, that they're ready to actually be there and that they're not making mistakes. So Everloop's purpose is to really keep these kids safe across all devices. Larry: Well I love it. Lucy: I know. It's great, isn't it? I'm sure that some of the companies' strategies will emerge as we talk to Hillary in this interview. Why don't you let our listeners know how you got first into technology? Hillary: I started in technology at a company called Oracle. I was there for 10 years and really became passionate about different products that are out on the market. I was hungry to learn about new things being brought up and I thought of my own children and I do have three kids. As my own kids became interested in technology, I thought, you know, I've got the background and yet I still feel that I'm not connected to my kids in their digital nomadship when they are out there really exploring. And I thought, well if that is happening to me as a parent, it must be happening to others. So two other moms and entrepreneurs, we decided to join forces and create a company that was really designed to as a mission, help with safe communication. I mentioned across multiple devices and it was really mobile devices were coming into play and desktop, giving them the ability to have kids feel safe. Because they ultimately want that too but also give parents a place that they can trust. And that's why we really created Everloop. Lucy: I like that phrase, digital nomadship. Larry: Yes. Hillary: Haha. That might be a new one. Larry: There you go. Lucy: Absolutely awesome. Larry: Hillary, you've got a family. You obviously are very busy. Why are you an entrepreneur? And what is it about entrepreneurship that makes you tick? Hillary: Well it's interesting because someone said last week "So you're a mompreneur?" I said, I really am because I believe so strongly in giving kids a voice, having them have a homebase, having them stay kids longer. I think that today's society makes kids grow up much faster than they need to. And there's always that desire as a tween, I've heard it statistically said that kids want to be 17. But the problem is that where we have technology now, taking this kids, they're getting to the place where it took us years and years and years to get. They can get to pictures, images, videos in five seconds by going online. So for me going into being an entrepreneur and having children, you have to take a step back and say how are you going to do it all? And that is really the question. How do you create balance in your life? And I felt so strongly about what I wanted to give my own children that I use them in my test cases. I use them as my focus group. I actually engage them in the company. Larry: That's super. Lucy: Now that is very cool. I believe that's the first time we have heard that. That's awesome. Along the way Hillary, who influenced or supported you to take this career path? Hillary: Well it was interesting because I have had the privilege of really being located in the Silicon Valley. I have had the change to meet truly the top people in the industry and when I worked at Oracle, got to know just some, you know, the creme de la creme of the men and the women. I saw what it took them to really be successful and to gain the respect and you know I talked about trust. You have to, and this is really important for any entrepreneur, when you're thinking about starting a business, you have to be able to identify with at least three people that you think can mentor you and be able to coach you. What was interesting is after Oracle, I actually started a business where for five years I have helped CEOs in the Valley put strategic frameworks around their business. And sometimes when you do things like this you think, well I've done this. I coach other people. Who's going to help me figure out next steps? What's interesting is that there is always more to learn. There's always comments and feedback that people can give you. People have experiences and you have to be so willing to throw out where you are in your company and what challenges you are having. People want to help other people if they're willing to listen. So I went ahead and found three absolutely incredible mentors. I ping them all the time and throw off questions. Sometimes these are 10 minute conversations and sometimes they are an hour. Larry: That's great and I hope you listeners out there heard that because it's a great thing to go after. Now with all the different things you've done. It already sounds you are a serial entrepreneur. What was the toughest thing that you've had to do in your career? Hillary: I think the toughest besides always having the pressure of being a mom right? Because that's my number one job. That's my number one love. That's my number one focus and everything. So besides the juggling of just really being there and I'm also a single mom. So you add the element of trying to be there for your kids. I think that what you always have to remember is that this is just a job. I mean that is ultimately what it is. It's a career choice and that's the key that I just said. It is a choice. You're doing this because you ultimately want to spend your time and your hours doing it. Sometimes what happens is that you can get caught up in wanting to have something be so successful that you lose sight of why you actually started to create it in the first place. I had the opportunity at one time specifically that I will talk about. I had a chance to merge the company with another and it all sounded great. But then when you started to look at the real terms behind it, it took me away from the core focus of what I had set out to accomplish initially. I believe that you will be successful if it goes with what you are passionate about. So it was a challenging time for me because there was a moment where I could have sold myself short. I chose not to and I chose to continue down the path what I truly believe in and where I believe that this company can go. But those were tough decisions. Lucy: Absolutely and it's a great transition to our next question. Around giving advice to young people about entrepreneurship, so it seems like one piece of advice you would clearly give them is keep your perspective. What other things would you advice them about? Hillary: I would absolutely say ideas can become big, way to big to even handle so focus, focus, focus. Really put together that one page on what are you hoping to accomplish? What are your milestones going to be? Because we lose sight. You're trying to go to that end game, you're trying to get to be that, the big picture. Where you have to appreciate the small things that you accomplish. So putting plans together and I'm dig on a 30 day plan, a 90 day plan. You have to be organized enough that when you hit those small successes, you stop and you take note and you say you know what? That was really good. I was able to accomplish this. Because if you don't, what happens is you spin and you spin and you spin and you don't think you're moving forward at all. You kind of just plateaued. But in reality you actually had. You've accomplished and you're getting closer to ultimately what you're trying to build, which is a successful company. Larry: That's very good advice. Now let me ask you a related question and that is: What are the personal characteristics that have made you a good entrepreneur? Hillary: The characteristics that an entrepreneur needs to have is one you need to have very thick skin. I mean you just have to have the ability to get knocked down and get up again. It's this idea that you've got your integrity. You've got what you initially started the business to be. But then you are also flexible. I see many entrepreneurs kind of get on their path. You can't deviate at all and especially if you're dealing with technology. Technology, you can't jam in your product. The square into the circle peg. You can't do it. Sometimes you have to be able to pivot. You have to be flexible enough to realize, you know what, this idea isn't that great of an idea anymore. But willing to say, but hey, maybe this other one is a really good idea. Lucy: And that's really evolutionary right? Which is a thing that we hear a lot in these interviews that things will emerge. So Hillary you mentioned your personal and your professional lives, what kinds of tips or techniques can you share that help you bring balance to the two of them? Hillary: That we're balanced...You know what if you really showed me someone who truly balanced their lives, please introduce them to me. Lucy: We don't know anybody. Larry: We don't. Hillary: I think it's a fallacy. I think what you can try to do is realize what's important in your life and look at it as a way to say as I'm doing right now. I don't feel as guilty when I know over the dinner table, I'm discussing a new concept or new direction with the company and I'm gaining the feedback of my own children. It's interesting, I once heard that you have your life and it's in the shape of a triangle and it's you. Your family, the last is your career and the right is kind of this whole understanding that the health around you, not just your family. I think it's almost the point where you have to schedule things into your life in order to get balance. It's as crazy as saying that for these two hours I'm going to schedule time with my family at dinner and I'm not going to do anything else. You have to actually make it into a meeting so that you know in your head, nothing else. Cos if you're in a meeting with people, right now, I'm talking to you but I'm not going off and doing other things. I'm completely focused on you. You have to do that with your children. You have to do that with your health. It's so important because if one of these pieces fail, it has the tendency to spin off into other areas as well. Larry: Wow that's also great advice. By the way, I love your website. It's really super, isn't it? Lucy: It really is. Hillary: Well thank you. I'm really proud of it. I think again, trying to be this trusted source for any parent out there and giving kids a homebase where they can just go and feel like yeah this is mine. This is my place. Larry: Yes that's very good. Now you've already achieved a great deal both personally and professionally. What's next for you? Hillary: OK, you're asking an entrepreneur what's next? Well I think that I'm passionate about the kids phase. I love everything about it. I'm so excited with new partnerships that I'm developing for Everloop. I get approached all the time with new technology and it just fascinates me on how we are spending our lives these days. How everything is just gammafied around you. How do you make people interested in doing things without having everything be about a reward system? You look at kids and I'm a mom that does it. Hey if you do this, you get this. But it's interesting because how far will we go? So when I look at where technology is shaping kids. I just read that kids are learning to use an iPad before they can even tie their shoes. This is fascinating to me! I think where I see myself is really uncovering those great technologies in the future that aren't detriments to a kids life but enhances. Larry: You know I think that's so true. I've heard that kids today are taking three months longer to learn how to walk. That's only because they've got to learn how to text first. Hillary: I agree with you. Lucy: But they can't text while walking. Hillary: Exactly but when you have my daughter who is 14 and she texts about a 100 texts a day. She can do it in about 30 seconds and I'm still the thumbs and trying to get my text. She will look at me and say "Are you still sending that one text?' She's just light years ahead of me. I laugh at my 11 year old when she says "Mommy, are you in this new app?' She knew Instagram months before I did. It was so great. She's now telling me " Have you seen this? Have you seen this? Are you playing draw something?' I love it because I sit down and I'm like OK again. She's educating me. Now how can I educate all the other parents in the world? Lucy: And that's why a one final tip right? Make sure your subject matter experts live with you. Hillary: You know what they are the domain experts. I just realize that right now, but make sure you're not disconnected with it. Make sure that you embrace it because it is their way of life. If you want to communicate with your kids going forward, it's not your way. It's their way or the highway. Lucy: It's really true. My son was very impressed with me last night when I sent a photo with a text message. Larry: Whoa, very good. Lucy: I know, I graduated. So Hillary, we can't let you go without asking about your recent appearance on Secret Millionaire. How was that? That's pretty cool. Hillary: Oh I have to say I have always been passionate about giving back. I felt a little hypocritical as I was sitting here on Everloop, letting kids join fabulous charities and hearing more about what kids love to volunteer and what they do if they had the ability to go out and actually make a huge difference. I was approached by this opportunity and initially I thought I'm not definitely into the reality world. I barely even watch TV. I thought more about it and the fact that I could uncover by being placed in a city that I'm unfamiliar with and uncover wonderful charities and be able to help them become known. All these unsung heroes that are doing amazing things. I thought you know what? This is such a great way now. We've taken one of the charities that I've uncovered when I was doing the show and this little boy who started a charity called Love in the Mirror when he was eight years old. He now has a loop on Everloop and he shares what he is doing in the community to help make it a better place. It all came together. It made me feel good. It made the people that are hearing about what we did feel good. The charities that I got to meet. I mean I'm still friends with every single one of them. It's one of those that you feel blessed where something fell into my lap that was just so outside the box for me. It proved to be one of the highlights of my life to date. Lucy: Well it was very compelling. I went and looked out on it on the web and I think it's the perfect way to end an interview because it just really defines you and Everloop and what people are using Everloop for. I know that your site has a page that lists the charities in case listeners are interested. Hillary: Well thank you for taking the time to talk with me and I love talking to you both. Hopefully we will be able to do this again soon. Lucy: Great I want to remind listeners again that they can find this interview at ncwit.org and... Larry: W3w3.com Lucy: All right, thank you Hillary. Larry: Thank you. Hillary: Take care. Bye-bye. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Hilary DeCesareInterview Summary: As the mother of three young children, Hilary DeCesare recognized the unmet need for a safe environment for kids to connect online with friends, play games, share pictures and music, and learn new skills. With her children in mind, she created Everloop, a social media platform for kids under 13. Release Date: August 1, 2012Interview Subject: Hilary DeCesareInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 19:12

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Sandy Jen Co-founder and CTO, Meebo Date: January 16, 2012 [Intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi. This is Lucy Sanders, the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology, or NCWIT, and with me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Larry, hi. Larry Nelson: Hi. I'm so happy to be here. This is a great series. It has a tremendous impact on young women, parents, bosses, and we're very excited. Lucy: We're not going to disappoint listeners. We're going to have a great interview today with Sandy Jen, who's the co-founder and CTO, that's chief technology officer of Meebo. Meebo is a great company and we have interviewed somebody from there before, Eileen Wherry. We had just a great time talking with her so we needed to go back around and catch up with Sandy. Here's this great tag line that I've heard used with Meebo. It's "together is better." That's a great tag line because Meebo integrates all social networks and communication channels into a very simple single solution so that it makes all those different channels a whole lot easier to use. I was poking around on Tech Crunch, Larry, and found out that-- probably these numbers have gotten even higher since I did it in November-- you have 250 million Unique's a month. Wow! That's astonishing growth. Here's some other stats: now delivering 5.4 billion page views a month, up from 2.8 billion a year ago. Larry: That's a "B"? Lucy: A "B". Larry: Wow! Sandy Jen: That's a "B". [laughs] Lucy: That's a "B". Sandy leads engineering as the CTO, of course, and builds the team responsible for all these great products and solutions, organizing the technology and the innovation and thinking very creatively about how you scale Meebo's architecture. Welcome Sandy, we're really happy to have you here. Sandy: Really great to be here and thank you for calling. Lucy: So why don't you tell us a little bit, other than those astonishing growth statistics, what else is going on at Meebo? Sandy: Let's see. We launched in 2005 so we're about six years old, which I guess is a pretty long time for a startup. We still consider ourselves a startup even though we're roughly 200 people now. We started with three, so it's also been a big growth in terms of just the number of heads we have on staff. Our goal, from day one we started out as a web instant messaging client and we wanted to connect people with other people that were important to them. Back in 2005 a really cool way to do that was chatting and instant messaging. We think as the web got a lot more big and a lot more complex and people are a lot more savvy now on how they use the web. Their expectations are a lot higher on how they connect with people and generally just consume content. So now what we're doing at Meebo, six years later, is connecting people with other people, but also people with content that's important to them. It's been an interesting journey for us. We started out as a web IM client, like I said, and now we're this distributed social bar. You mentioned our growth, which we're really proud of. The growth is now primarily due to this bar that I mentioned. We're on over 8,000 sites around the Internet that you see today and we reach about half the US Internet population, which is pretty cool as well. It's a really cool technology platform to play with to bring great consumer products and experiences to everybody that can touch the bar and see the bar. That goes beyond IM. So, we're experimenting with a bunch of ideas and how to really create a cool user experience using our distribution. Just to give you guys a little bit of a teaser we expect them to come out relatively quickly, in the next month or so. So keep an eye out. Larry: Oh good. We will. Lucy: Early in 2012. We love asking questions about entrepreneurship, as everybody who listens to these now, and we're about ready to get started with that. But I wanted to read a quote from Sandy from a recent entrepreneurship panel, because I think it's going to set up how great an interview this is going to be. "You may not feel as if you are qualified or confident enough. The biggest insight in this entrepreneurial journey of mine was when I realized that someone I knew, who was not super smart,"- I love this- "who failed the same tests I did had started a company, and I realized I could do it too." I loved it. I just love that quote, so I had to start with that. So, off we go. Sandy, we love talking to technologists, and especially CTOs. Share with us how you first got into technology and you've already told us a bit about cool technologies, but any other crystal ball you've got, technologies, on the horizon? We'd love to hear them. Sandy: I was lucky enough to grow up in a household where both my parents were engineers. It wasn't like a foreign thing growing up to be surrounded by engineering concepts like computers and physics and things like that. Getting started, I started pretty early in high school. Again, I was lucky enough to go to a high school that had actually four years of computer science classes offered. Lucy: That is amazing. Sandy: Yeah. [laughs] I started programming as a freshman in high school. Obviously, it wasn't the only thing that I did. I really enjoyed art as well, and English and a bunch of other topics. After I finished high school I was lucky enough to get into Stanford, they offered a couple of choices in Integral Computer Science classes. The first of which was if you've programmed before you could take an accelerated course and squish two quarters into one. Or you could take the two- quarter class that that would introduce you to the concept. So, I was like, "Well, I've done the programming, I'll go and take the accelerated course." Little did I know that those you take that course have the reputation of just doing computer science throughout their career. So, I took that course and here we are today. [laughter] Lucy: Here you are. Sandy: Exactly. I think that he quote that you mentioned was a really, really important one for me, where, going from a suburb high school to a big university like Stanford, one of the thing that's really eye-opening is that there are a lot of smart people in this world, and when you first meet a lot of these smart people, you're like wow, I don't know if I'm really that smart. When you go through your classes, and you may have gotten straight As in high school, but you may have gotten some Bs and Cs in college, it's a little bit of a hmm, like how good am I, right? I think for a lot of women in particular, that question tends to be maybe not explicit, but it does run strongly in the actions and the behaviors that they exude. For me, the biggest light bulb moment, like you said, was seeing someone who I thought, quote, was "as dumb" as I was do something extraordinary, and that was very inspiring. In my logical computer science brain, I was like, there's not a lot of difference between me and him, what made him do that? I think that was the biggest insight for me. So fast-forward six years now, when I talk to young entrepreneurs, a lot of them are like, "Oh, I have this great idea, I want to do this thing, I need to get the time, I need to do the business plan, I need to get the technology in place," and they keep putting up these road blocks. These are self-imposed road blocks. The difference today in terms of technology is that it's so easy to get started, like you have all these Cloud services that are really free and really cheap, you have all these resources available. You could get something launched, a mobile app, in like a week. That is extraordinarily powerful for a young, very ambitious entrepreneur who has an idea. In terms of crystal ball stuff, it's really hard for me to say, but the web is where everything is going, and whether that be mobile web apps or, websites that you get transferred to mobile, like all the things that people are doing these days, there's no concept of sort of a download or an application or even something that you sort of have to buy and pay for, there's all these services and online Cloud things. All those things are very, very interesting, and they're very powerful, and they're so easy to set up that I feel like that's where you'll see a lot of young people innovate, because it's so easy. That's really exciting for me. Larry: Boy. Lucy: It is really exciting. I can remember, I asked for my first promotion at work when somebody who I thought was a stupid... [laughter] Lucy: I really appreciate that. Larry: Yeah. Well, there you have parents that are engineers going through high school and enjoying a lot of different topics; why are you an entrepreneur? Maybe the second part is, what about entrepreneurship that makes you tick? Sandy: I want to go back a little bit. I went to an entrepreneurial organization at Yale called YEI, and I spoke with some of their students there, and one of them said, the interesting thing that I've found was that a lot of young people, especially young women, do entrepreneurial-type things, but they don't self-identify as an entrepreneur. They do things like, "Oh, I started a social club," or, "I started this meetup," or, "I gathered all these really cool people and they got to talk to each other, and now we do this on a regular basis," or, " Hey, I've started this event-planning thing that gets like all these really young people together." Those types of actions are actually very entrepreneurial. I would identify them as entrepreneurs, but they don't, and so they don't seek out help to take the next step. For me, I fell into entrepreneurship. I had the opportunity and I was like, "Wow. This is a really big risk." I'm generally more risk averse, and then I'm thinking, "Why the hell not?" Putting roadblocks in front of yourself like, "Oh. I'm not smart enough." "Oh, I need to do this." Or, "Oh. I didn't go to business school." Or, "Oh. I didn't do X, Y, Z." There's always excuses. I think that once I actually identified myself as an entrepreneur, and I took off with that, the most important thing that helped make me to continue to tick is that self confidence. It's the ability to think, "Oh, wow. I can really do this, and I can learn from this, and I can be respected for this, and the fact that I did this." Even if I have a team around me, the fact that you put yourself out there and were willing to take the risk to do that is amazing. Even today, six years later after we launched, I'm sometimes like, "Wow. Holy crap. I'm an entrepreneur." Or, "Oh my God. I'm the CTO." Because when you take a step back, it's like, "Wow. I was able to take a risk." Or, "I was able to put myself out there more than I would have before, and it really paid off." Even if the payoff is in monetary terms or the success of the company, the fact I overcame this self doubt, and, "Oh my God. I'm so stupid," or, "Oh. I'm not good enough." That in itself is very rewarding on a day to day basis. I think that's the thing that really makes me tick. Lucy: That's pretty interesting. The things we tell ourselves, right? I know. We had a person who we interviewed a couple of months ago, who said, her piece of advice was, I hope I get this right, "Never compare yourself on the inside to what you see on the outside of others." It's the way you feel. It's all about that same thing. Along the way, your career path so far, you've obviously had people influence you. Maybe your parents, the people at your high school. I'm still blown away by four years of computer science, by the way. Who are your role models now? The types of people who have influenced you. Any thoughts on that? Sandy: I was asked the same question at a panel a few weeks ago. My first answer was there's probably two types of people. The first, obviously, would be my parents. My mom was actually an engineer. A funny story, she actually helped me with my computer science classes in college when I had a bug. That's cool. People were like, "Wow. Your mom did that?" I'm like, "Yeah. Totally." Then, facetiously, but I really did mean it were, I called them my stupid goofy friends. Those friends are the one that I mentioned who, also sucked at physics like I did, and also failed that particular test like I did, and had trouble with that problem just like I did. They started companies, and they did it at a time when there was no money going around and the VCs were very wary of startups, given what had happened in the boom. They got funded, and they started a company. They worked really hard, and persevered, and were able to create a company that got somewhere. Them telling me that of course you can do it, like why wouldn't you do that? Or, hey, when I was feeling depressed or really unhappy with my job, because I was thinking, I'm coming out of school and I'm really happy about what I did in school, but now I'm in the working world, and I don't know what I want to do, they're like, "You should just pick something that you're passionate about and actually just go for it." Like there's no reason why you can't. Inspiration comes in many forms, and I think for me personally, the strongest was just the support to say yes, you can do it, and belief in me even when I didn't believe in myself. I think that's extremely important, I think, for anybody to have that kind of support network, because you can be successful and you can be rich, have all sorts of accomplishments in the world, but it's really lonely to celebrate them by yourself. Like to have someone else or a team or friends to celebrate with, and had said, "Oh," you know, "I believed in you from day one, and look what happened," is so much more valuable to me than anything else, so... Larry: All right, now, with all these wonderful things that you've been through, what is the toughest thing that you've experienced in your career? Sandy: Oh, man. [laughs] I probably would say hiring. When you start a company and you get all this money, people actually expect you to do something with it. [laughter] Larry: Yeah. Lucy: That's true. Sandy: You can't just have the money in the bank and be like oh, I got funded, and now it's just sitting there all nice and pretty. You have to build a team, and you're like OK, I'm 20, when I started, maybe I was like, you know, 23, and, you know, you're a 23-year-old who was a sophomore engineer for two and a half years, you've never managed anybody, you've never hired anybody, you've barely interviewed anybody at your old company, and now you have to build a top-notch tech team to support a product that you kind of hobbled together in your spare time and got funded for, and now they're giving you millions of dollars to go and make it big. You're like holy crap, what am I supposed to do with this? The toughest thing was actually figuring out how to hire, how to evaluate people, how to build a culture for the first 12 people in the company, and also getting over the fact that you're interviewing people who have been in the industry for 20 more years than you have, and they're expected to report to you, because you're the founder and you're the boss. So getting over that was huge and very challenging. I think, as you move more towards your career, like it's six years later at Meebo and I've interviewed hundreds of people now, sometimes there's still that little part of you that when you meet someone with a lot more industry experience, you're like, how do I really make you respect me? Because I may not come off as being like the big hotshot, you know, CTO kind of person. That's probably been the toughest, because evaluating other people is actually really, really hard. Lucy: Yeah. That was a very interesting answer. I don't believe we've gotten that answer to this question before. But I think it's very interesting. A plug for an organization we work, Women 2.0...writing a book on certain things like this. Like, hiring or interviewing. I chose the question, "How do you let somebody go?" Larry: Yeah. Lucy: I figured no one would answer that one. [laughter] Lucy: I figured nobody would. But I did it, I wrote it. If you were sitting here giving advice to a young person about entrepreneurship, in addition to some of the advice that we've filtered out of this interview so far around, "Don't make artificial excuses, have confidence in yourself," what are the kinds of things you would say to them? Sandy: One is, to be confident in your own idea. A lot of people have this notion that they have this really cool idea and they're like, "It's really neat, I should really act on it." Then they start to protect it. They baby it, they hide it, they keep it secret, they don't tell anybody. They hide it in the closet and they try to work on it on their own. It seems counter-intuitive but one piece of advice I would give people with ideas, with wanting to start something, is to share the idea as much as you can. Get it out there and get feedback because if you work in a vacuum you're not going to understand how to adapt quickly. I guarantee you, and I've said this many, many times to people, if you have an idea, idea's are never formed in a vacuum, and 20 other people have the same idea and they're already working on it. So, everybody has a different take on an idea, they have a different slant, they have a different perspective, they work on it in a very different way. But the more the idea is out there and the more you can iterate on it the better the idea gets. The more attuned to your audience it can be, whether that be, like I said, an ice-cream store, to a consumer Internet web company, having people give you honest feedback is so critical to creating a really big part. When I tell this to people, they're like, "Really?" I'm like, "Yes. Absolutely. Don't hide the idea." It seems really weird but it's a really good piece of advice that we got early on that helped immensely. Lucy: That's interesting too. Even if you have a good idea and you hide it. You get out there and as soon as you put it out there someone with more money, they're going to do it too, they're going to copy you. Sandy: People are always afraid of people copying them. I'm like, "It's OK." One of the early lessons we had was, if you make five or six changes to your UI, let's say I change the button shape or I move the position of a particular radio button or something like that, there were reasons why I did that. The reasons were for a number of user issues or feedback or A/B tests that we did. So, we moved the button over there. But if someone else went straight ahead and copied those pixels they don't understand why we moved that button. So, they don't get the learnings of why we did that. Without the deeper understandings of the decisions that you make a straight copy can work for a certain period of time but it won't work ultimately. That's the counterargument I give to people who say, "Oh, people will copy me." I say, "Well, generally it's the shallow copy, it's not really deep copy." Larry : Based on all the other things you've said during this interview it should be obvious, but from your perspective what characteristics do you think have given you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Sandy: Hardworking. You can have as much influence and networking and friends in high places as you can, but if you don't work hard you can't really get there. Also, I didn't have this in the beginning but I think it developed a lot, would be self-confidence, but a sense of humbleness, in a way. Being OK with your decisions and not regretting the decision that you make. But at the same time being open to learning from mistakes, learning from other people who have different opinions and put that into your own system of beliefs. But being able to take a step back and evaluate that from a very non-judgmental perspective is important as well. It's a really long answer but, basically, always listening and asking the right questions, sometimes can be much more powerful than knowing all the answers. Having that perspective as you go from venture to venture or interview to interview is really important. A lot of people that I meet, who I have issues with just working with, like, some entrepreneurs can come off really cocky. I think that's to their detriment, because they may be really smart and really brilliant but if they don't take a step back and think about, "How am I perceived by others? How can I better myself to make other people want to work with me and share knowledge?" I think they're missing that. For me, I've really, really focused on doing that well. That goes into not being just an entrepreneur but as a good manager, as a good leader of the company. I don't have to have all the answers. But as long as I can ask the right questions and get the right issues surfaced, that is extremely effective. Lucy: Really important. This thing around listening and sometimes I say it's around, even, intuitive listening, because when you're listening really well you actually hear things that people didn't say but actually imply. Larry: Yeah. Between the lines. Lucy: Between the lines. There's a lot of value and there's a lot of mischief between the lines. You mentioned, Sandy, about hardworking. Of course, then we all have things we like to do outside of work, I'll put quotes on that. You mentioned your friends and people to celebrate things with. How do you strike that balance there? Sandy: It's really important. In the beginning of Meebo, I was like, "Work, work, work. Work is awesome, Meebo is great." All I would do is work, work, work. Then at a certain point you're like, "Wow, I'm really tired." [laughter] Sandy: The tiredness may not actually come from the lack of enthusiasm or lack of passion for the idea, but you're just physically and mentally very, very tired. If you're really tired you can't be productive. One of the things that I focus really hard in Meebo is work-life balance. I rock-climb, I do yoga, I play Ultimate Frisbee, I run, and those to me are just as important as the work I do at Meebo. So, I have this thing, you work hard play hard, and they're equally important. Because if you don't play hard and balance the "work hard" part you're going to tether one way or the other. Burning out is painful. You see it in an engineer, you see it in people who work all the time. You get cranky, you get demotivated and this spiral that keeps going and feeding on itself. You want the spiral to go the other way. The happier you are and the more balanced you are, the happier, more productive you can be and the more imaginative you can be with the work that you do and you can get more ideas that way. Again, super, super important. I will kick my employees out sometimes from work early and force them on vacation if I have to to get them to have more of that balance. Lucy: It is really important. We heard of some new research, the listeners might find interesting, that there is research that shows, especially in this space, in tech space, and I'm sure it's true in any creative space, that you really can't work longer than eight hours on something without starting to make the crossover mistakes that make it unproductive. Sandy: I can do that. [laughs] Lucy: Yeah. Which is pretty interesting. Larry: Sandy, I love that thought. Yes. Sandy, with all the things you've done, the billions of page views and millions of users and everything, you've already achieved a great deal. What is next for you? Sandy: That's a good question. My personal goal for Meebo has always been, I should be able to go to any city in the world and say the word "Meebo" and people's eyes should light up and they should know exactly what I'm talking about. People are doing that with Facebook a little but they don't do that with Meebo and I'd love for that to happen. Personally, that's self-interesting too. I started out as a software engineer and then you learn how to manage, you learn how to be a leader. Now, as a CTO my role is divided now where I do a lot of internal management. So, team building and hiring and personal development of the people that work for me. But also, the external part of that. So, reaching out to other folks, going to industry events, speaking on panels. As someone who does both, you can't really do both really, really well if you're pulled in two directions. So, I've been learning to really love the external part. This interview, for example, is really fun for me. I really like going to meet young people outside and encouraging them to start their own ventures. I really like mentoring young people, I like going to these entrepreneurial conferences and inspiring young folks. I really love that part and so I'd love to see more of that in my career and my personal development. Obviously, my commitments and my heart is at Meebo. So, trying to find a good balance there is something that I'm trying to do right now, it's a personal goal of mine. To be honest, I don't know what I'll be doing in five or six years. Hopefully, Meebo will be wildly successful and we'll be looking at trillions of page views instead of billions. But once you start your own venture it's hard to go back to work with somebody else. So, either starting something else or seeing where Meebo goes, I don't know. I really don't know. Larry: Well, we're going to track you and follow you. Lucy: Thank you very much for your passion around inspiring more young people to pursue entrepreneurship, technical endeavors, young women to pursue computer science. You're an awesome role model. That's exactly what NCWIT is really trying to do. It's so important. So, thank you for that. Sandy: No worries. This is really fun. Lucy: OK. Well, great. We enjoyed talking to you. I want to remind listeners that they can find this and other interviews at w3w3.com and ncwit.org See you around, Sandy. Sandy: OK. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Sandy JenInterview Summary: Meebo’s Co-founder and CTO, Sandy Jen recently discussed gaining the self-assurance to start a new company: “You may not feel as if you are qualified or confident enough…The biggest insight in this entrepreneurial journey of mine was when I realized that someone I knew who was not super smart, who failed same tests I did, had started a company, I realized I could do that too.” Release Date: January 16, 2012Interview Subject: Sandy JenInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 24:55

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Jennifer Pahlka Founder and Executive Director, Code for America Date: January 2, 2012 [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hello, this is Lucy Sanders, CEO and Co-Founder of NCWIT, the National Center for Woman and Information Technology and with me today, Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Larry, what's going on with old w3w3.com? Larry Nelson: Oh my goodness. We have so much fun, we interview so many people. We've even been doing it for 12 years now. I must say that this series is extraordinary for us, because what it does for young women, bosses, parents and the like, it's very good. So thank you. Lucy: Well, listeners will know, we ask women who have started tech companies as part of the series, pretty much the same eight questions and the richness of the answers never ceases to amaze me. Larry: Oh yeah. Lucy: I think today we are talking to yet another great entrepreneur in the technology sector, Jennifer Pahlka, who is the Founder and Executive Director of Code for America. Now, this is an awesome effort and I am going to describe it the way that Jennifer did in a recent talk. She says, "It's like a Teach for America or a Peace Corps for Geeks." Larry: Yes. Lucy: I just think that's so cool that people in government and city managers for example, who have projects that they think could benefit from web-based solutions and you can make an appeal to Code for America and get volunteer help to help build these projects out, really in some sense making government more open and giving citizens easier access to data. So, I think we are going to hear more about that. Welcome, Jennifer. We are so happy to have you here. Jennifer Pahlka: Thank you. I am very glad to be here. Lucy: This is not the first thing Jennifer has been. She is also a serial entrepreneur and has some extensive experience in gaming and media. Before we get off on your entrepreneurship discussion, Jennifer, why don't you tell us a little bit about the latest Code for America? Maybe you can tell us what projects like, "Adopt-a-Fire- Hydrant" are like? [laughs] Larry: Yeah. Jennifer: Sure, I'd be happy to. We are a pretty new organization, and we just finished up our very first fellowship year. We had 19 fellows work with us all year along and work with the cities, doing great projects. One of them is Adopt-a-Fire-Hydrant app, which came out of the fact the fellows go visit the cities for Fire Weeks in February and when they were there, our Boston team was treated to a massive Snow Apocalypse and one of the things they saw is that, the city is struggling just to clear the streets. They never really get to digging out the fire hydrant. But that the citizens were right in front of them and they could dig them out. So we created a little web app that allows citizens to claim a fire hydrant and agree to dig it out when it snows and the game dynamics on top of it that make it pretty fun. What's cool about that is that other cities who've seen this and adopted it as well. You wouldn't think that Honolulu has anything to do with Boston in terms of something like snow, but they have a similar problem. They need people to check the batteries in the tsunami sirens on the beach. Lucy: Oh my God. Jennifer: Too expensive for them to send crews around, checking them every week. So let citizens do that. Now it's also become Adopt-a-Siren and in Buenos Aires it's becoming Adopt-a-Park Bench and in other cities they are using it for other assets that are important to them. Lucy: Oh, it's so cool, because people who really care about being a good citizen are plugged in, in ways that they know they can make a difference and be helpful. Larry: Yes. Jennifer: Exactly, yeah. Lucy: Awesome. So, Jennifer, tell us a little bit about how you got into starting a technology company, like what got you into doing that? Jennifer: I wasn't a technical person. My first exposure to technology was actually in the video game industry, which is an incredibly dynamic interesting group to be in, because they are so creative and yet so at the cutting edge of technology. Video games are often breaking grounds in terms of graphics and sound, business models. It was a wonderful introduction not just to technology but community that's so creative and that made me really love technology. But doing conferences both in video game world and in the Web 2.0 world you are constantly talking to some of the smartest, brightest, most passionate people. You see that all of their efforts go towards building products or building services for companies that create a lot of value in our lives. But they don't really go toward building the public institutions that we all pay into and that we all believe should represent us. And so, as a result, without that talent, the public sector is really falling behind. I founded Code for America because I want some of the talent that I have seen over the course of my career in technology, think about building platforms for the public sector as well as the private sector. Start to close that gap between the innovation curve that we're all benefiting from in our personal lives and the way that government works. Lucy: How big do you think that gap is for the public institutions, just out of curiosity? How far behind are they? Jennifer: Well, there's that phrase, the future is already here, it's just unevenly distributed. Lucy: Yes. Jennifer: That's very true in city government. You've got some incredibly innovative projects. You've got a lot of very innovative people doing wonderful stuff. For example, here in San Francisco, they put sensors in the curbs so they know what parking spaces are taken and what aren't and they've got some complex algorithms that change the pricing of parking in real time in order to optimize to have just one space open per block in San Francisco. If you live in San Francisco, you know how important that is. There's never any parking in San Francisco. But if you do that, you reduce the number, you reduce congestion, you reduce people driving around the block, it had some environmental effects. That's an example of people. There's many others like that. They're doing really great cutting edge stuff, but then you've also got tons of departments and, even within the same city, you'll have different departments that are still running their technology on Coball databases, stuff that's extremely outdated. Not with just bad technology or outdated technology that doesn't have modern develop per community around it, but also with just very outdated approaches about how to provide services to citizens that's stuck in an 80s and 90s model. So, it really varies. I don't want to discount how great some of the government technology leaders are these days, but there's a very long tail behind that that we need to catch up. Lucy: Well, and for all you listeners out there with Coball skills. [laughs] Larry: Yes, Lucy, are you talking about yourself? Lucy: Actually, I took Coball in college. [laughs] I'm thinking I could probably make more money doing that than what I'm doing. Jennifer: You've got some cities that are going to their local community colleges asking them to teach Coball now so that they can fill those slots, which I'm not sure is really the way to go, buy hey. [laughs] Lucy: [laughs] Now look, you've got to go after the age people who are thinking about retiring and lure them out you know, for sure. Larry: I'm thinking when they have to and then deter from that a little bit to get to our next question. Lucy: OK. Larry: Jennifer, why are you an entrepreneur and what is it about you that entrepreneurship makes you tick? Jennifer: I don't think I thought of myself as an entrepreneur, really, until I came up with the idea for Code for America. I think what's important about that to young women who are thinking about this is that you don't have to feel like you're branded an entrepreneur from the time you're 18. I came up with this idea when I was 39, and I suddenly felt that I could be incredibly useful to the world if I made this happen. It was really the power of the idea and the notion that no one else was going to do it, that made me start this organization. It certainly took some risk. I'm not a particularly risk adverse person and that's probably one quality that's important. But it was really feeling like this needed to happen and that no one else was going to do it, that made me start Code for America. Lucy: I love that answer. Larry: Yes. Lucy: I think it's great. Along that path when you started Code for America, did you have people influence you, or did you have mentors, or role models, or who shaped your thinking, if anybody? Jennifer: Well, early in my career I worked for a number of very strong, powerful but also so caring and nurturing women at the upper levels as media companies that I worked for. Actually, mostly one media company that went through a number of mergers and acquisitions. The president of our group when I was at the game that all the press conference is a woman named Regina Redly. I think the way that connect with technology, the way that she took care of her people all the way that she made the work environment as important as the work outcome, very much influenced me. Later on, when I was starting the idea of Code for America, I was very much inspired by Tim O'Reilly, the guy who's credit with the Web 2.0 and who's been a big thinker in open source. He continues now to be one of my mentors. I was also very inspired by Gwen Mellor who own the Sunlight Foundation D.C. She is a little bit more on the politics side. But someone who's very clear about the effects she wants to have in the world, very engaging, very kind and supportive person. Sunlight Foundation was initially the physical sponsor for Code for America because she actually very concretely helped Code for America get started and I'm very grateful to her. Larry: Good, wow, with all the things you've done. Lucy: So far. Larry: So far, that's right. I can't help but wonder what is one of the toughest things or the toughest thing that you ever had to do in your career? Jennifer: It's a difficult question. There's a lot of testing with the bum and bust cycles in technology. Certainly, when you have to lay people off, it's very painful because it's easy for them to take it personally. I've seen all this people well, moving on in so I'm less afraid of it than I used to be but it's hard to see people feel demoralized. I would have to say that now the hardest thing with Code for America is with very competitive process. We can only take 25 people a year right now to do our fellowship. We have 550 people apply. So when someone standing up and raising their hand and saying I want a Code for America, I'm going to move across the country work for some soft stipend, work long hours, and do this crazy thing. They're saying they want to do that and we say sorry you're not chosen. That's probably the hardest thing because you want to honor that instinct and that commitment and that generosity saying they are willing to do it. Lucy: Interesting, so as a side question, are you funded through donations then? Jennifer: Primarily, yes, from foundations, from corporations, from individuals. We also charge the cities that get a fellow team for the year a small participation fee so that it is not all on a charitable community. Lucy: It's a great effort. For all you listeners out there with big wallets... [laughter] Jennifer: Please. Lucy: Please yes. Jennifer: In your holiday giving. Lucy: Absolutely, so if you were sitting here with a young person and giving them advice about entrepreneurship, what would you tell them? Jennifer: I think the biggest thing I would share with an entrepreneur about an entrepreneur is to really care. You have to care about what you're doing. You have to deeply care about the problem you are trying to solve and think it's an important problem, and care about the people that you work with. If you don't really care deeply about your work other people won't and you won't be successful. That's the heart I think of this notion that we want to inspire the tech community, men and women to work on stuff that matters. If you really care you are much more likely to be successful. Larry: That's wonderful. Once again, all the things you've done and you did you start out to be an entrepreneur and now you've become one. What are the personal characteristics do you think that are giving you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Jennifer: A lot of people would talk about risk think that's an important when you do have to be able to take risk. I turned this organization with $10,000 in the bank for the Sunlight Foundation. That was it. When there was a lot more than was needed I quit my job, I didn't have any income for a while, that was important. I think personally for me I would have to say that my focus on a network in a community around what we do is probably in the most important. Somebody once said and I wish I knew who it was, "The time to build your network is before you need it." Lucy: Exactly. Larry: Yeah. Jennifer: I work in the conference industry. So my job was to know a lot of people and to have them care about the work we did and have them invest in the events that we did, in the content, in the ideas that we are promoting. I was lucky, and lucky that was what I was focused on for the first part of my career, because I did build a big network and I valued the people in my network very, very much. I am aware every day of how much the people who support our work and I am not just talking about our donors, though they are very important. I am talking about the people who come in and work, the fellows, the people who share our message on Twitter, whatever little thing people do because they care about our work. We exist because of them and I never want to take our network for granted. I think that's really helped build Code for America. Larry: Great. Lucy: Well, then that's so true about your network. You build networks, not necessarily with the intention that you are going to get something back from them, but because it's the right thing to do, to build those networks and to be in service to others and that's how the system works. I have seen so many people who really don't quite understand that. [laughs] Larry: Yeah. Jennifer: I think that's exactly why you need to build a network because you care about other people not because you want them to do things for you. Lucy: I know it's a little backwards just looking. Jennifer: No, I totally agree. Lucy: You're totally self-absorbed. So your starting Code for America, obviously you care very deeply about it. You are very busy with the getting a non-profit off the ground. I know it's really hard work. What is it that you do or what sort of tips can you pass along for balance between all the hard work and passion for Code for America and then your side life? Jennifer: That's an important topic for welfare for women, in particular, though I don't think should be for women in particular, I think it should be men and women. But it's always a challenge. It's been challenge for me before I started Code for America as well. There is a woman named Charlene Li, who runs Altimeter Group. She quit Forrester Group, but when she did, she blog something along the lines that's there is no such thing as work-life balances, its only disappointing and each party last which is a testament that you can see that that it is very difficult. I think I've seen this most effective for me is I have an eight-year-old daughter and my time with her is incredibly precious. I have her half time. When I am with her, I have the personal will, the power in me to actually turn off the vices, or if I have to respond to something else or tell her what it is and say, I am doing this. I am texting so and so for this reason and then I am going to turn my phone off. Knowing that that person needs me and that when I am paying attention to her, I get so much delight out of that interaction. It helps me create some boundaries between the work and home that I probably wouldn't have it, if I didn't have her. I am so grateful for my daughter in my life. Larry: I can relate to that. I have four daughters. Jennifer: Oh, you are very blessed. Larry: Yes. We certainly are. Jennifer, let me ask this. You've already achieved a great deal and we really appreciate and have a great deal of respect for the track you are on, but what's coming up next for you? Jennifer: It's funny, I don't think of myself as an ambitious person, but I do have some goals for Code for America that I would like us to see work not just in government technology at some point, but I think some of the approaches that we are taking to rebooting government should also be applied in education and that would be interesting for me. I don't know when or if it will happen, but I care a lot about education and I think that we could be putting more money into teachers and less money into administration if we find committees, principals that work, ++who you think was government. So that would be exciting for me, but beyond that I think hopefully what's next for me is more of work-life balance and I think that's really important. Larry: There you go. Lucy: Amen. Larry: Excellent. Lucy: And a great answer. Well, thank you so much for talking to us. Code for America, a great, great organization, growing and hopefully all you citizens, coders out there maybe can get involved. Thanks very much, I want to remind listeners that this interview can be found at w3w3.com and also at ncwit.org. Larry: You bet. Jennifer, thank you so much. Jennifer: Thank you very much for having me. Larry: Yes. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Jennifer PahlkaInterview Summary: Code for America’s Founder and Executive Director, Jennifer Pahlka describes her company as “Teach for America or Peace Corps for geeks.” Working in cities across the United States, Code for America is building a network of civic leaders who believe that there is a better way of doing things and want to make a difference using web-based solutions. Release Date: January 2, 2012Interview Subject: Jennifer PahlkaInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 17:31

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Helen Greiner Co-founder and Chairman of the Board, iRobot Corp. Date: June 11, 2007 NCWIT Interview with Helen Greiner BIO: In the early days of iRobot Corp. (Nasdaq:IRBT), co-founder and Chairman of the Board Helen Greiner envisioned robots as the basis for an entirely new class of products that would improve life by taking on dangerous and undesirable tasks. Greiner's vision has been brought to life by products such as the iRobot Roomba® Vacuuming Robot, which has sold more than 2 million units to consumers throughout the world, and the iRobot PackBot® Tactical Mobile Robot, which is helping to save soldiers' lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. Greiner's nearly 20 years in robot innovation and commercialization includes work at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab and MIT's Artificial Intelligence Lab, where she met iRobot co-founders Colin Angle and Rodney Brooks. Before founding iRobot in 1990, Greiner founded California Cybernetics, a company focused on commercializing NASA Jet Propulsion Lab technology and performing government-sponsored research in robotics. Greiner holds a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering and a master's degree in computer science, both from MIT. In 2005, she led iRobot through its initial public offering. She also guided iRobot's early strategic corporate growth initiatives by securing $35 million in venture funding to finance iRobot's expansion in the consumer and military categories. In addition, Greiner created iRobot's Government & Industrial Robots division - starting with government research funding leading to the first deployment of robots in combat in Operation Enduring Freedom. Currently, the division is shipping iRobot PackBot robots for improvised explosive device (IED) disposal in Iraq. In part because of the success of these initiatives, Greiner has helped enhance public acceptance of robots as one of today's most important emerging technology categories. Greiner was named by the Kennedy School at Harvard in conjunction with US News and World Report as one of America's Best Leaders and was recently honored with the Pioneer Award from the Association for Unmanned Vehicle Systems International (AUVSI) in appreciation for her work in military robotics. Greiner has been honored by the World Economic Forum as both a Global Leader for Tomorrow and a Young Global Leader. In 2005 Good Housekeeping Magazine named her "Entrepreneur of the Year," and Accenture honored her as "Small Business Icon" in its Government Women Leadership Awards. In 2003, Greiner was recognized by Fortune Magazine as one of its "Top 10 Innovators of 2003" and named the Ernst and Young New England "Entrepreneur of the Year" with cofounder Colin Angle. Greiner won the prestigious "DEMO God" award at the DEMO 2000 Conference. In 1999, she was named an "Innovator for the Next Century" by Technology Review Magazine. Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I am the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology or NCWIT. This is part of a series of interviews that we are having with fabulous IT entrepreneurs, women who have started IT companies in a variety of different sectors, all of whom have absolutely fabulous stories to tell us about being entrepreneurs. With me doing these interviews is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. How are you? Larry Nelson: Well, hello. Boy, am I happy to be here. Lucy: Why don't you tell us a little bit about w3w3 because these will be podcasts on w3w3 as well as on the NCWIT website. Larry: Well, just briefly, we started in 1998 before anybody knew what radio on the Internet was all about. And finally we learned a number of interesting lessons. We started doing podcasting a little over a year ago, so that's a big leap since then. We have been very fortunate to have a number of interviews with top‑notch heavy hitters, but after I saw the list that Lucy put together I was just absolutely stunned. Lucy: To really just get right to it, the person we are interviewing today is Helen Greiner. She is the co‑founder and chairwoman of iRobot. I have to admit up front that I am an iRobot stockholder, and Helen knows I am one of her best salespeople ‑‑ maybe not her best sales person but certainly one of her salespeople. Helen Greiner: I hope you are not just a stockholder, but I hope you are also a Roomba owner. Lucy: I am a Roomba owner. It's getting double duty now because we're doing a kitchen renovation, and we set it loose in the house at night to pick up all the dust and stuff so it's getting a workout, Helen. Helen: You'll be needing the Dirt Dog model for wash ups and construction areas. Lucy: Absolutely. Larry: We're going to have to have a link to all of these on the website. Lucy: Absolutely. We are really happy to have you here, Helen. We are really looking forward to talking to you about entrepreneurship. Larry: You know, I can't help but wonder: we have four daughters, and how did you, Helen, get really involved and interested in technology? Helen: Well, I think this is a common story in technology, but I was inspired by science fiction. I went to see "Star Wars" when I was 11 on the big screen, and I was enthralled by R2‑D2 because he was a character. He had a personality and a gender, and he was more than a machine. I was inspired to start thinking about, can you build something like that? As I was hacking on my little TSR 80 personal computer, obviously I had no idea just how complex it would be. Lucy: What are you thinking about those new mailboxes that are R2‑D2 mailboxes, Helen? Helen: I think they're pretty damn cool. Lucy: I think it's pretty cool. As a technologist you obviously look at a lot of different technologies. I am sure you have some on your radar screen that you think are particularly cool and compelling. Maybe you could share some of those with us. Helen: Well, of course, the coolest is robots because they are just on the cusp of adoption today. Other than the robots and ones that very well might feed into the robot, are large scale memories, multiple core processors, cameras on cell phones. Technologies as they go to mass market are getting cheaper and cheaper which enables them to be bringing them into other applications, like on the robots. Larry: I just want to make sure that the listeners do understand that you are talking about robots everywhere from the kitchen to Iraq. Helen: Yes. We have over two million Roombas out there in people's homes doing the floor sweeping and vacuuming. We have a floor washing robot, the Scooba, that you just leave on your floor and when you come back it's clean. We have a robot for the work shop called the Dirt Dog, and what most people don't realize is we also sell a line of robots for the military. Our Packbot model was used for the first time in cave clearing in Afghanistan and now is being used for bomb disposal over in Iraq. One of the neat new developments we have is we just put out a version of this with a bomb sniffing payload, so it can actually go out and find improvised explosive devices. Lucy: Well, I've heard you speak about the robots over in Iraq, and it's very compelling to know that we can use technology like this to really go on these types of missions instead of our young men and our young women. Helen: The robots allow a soldier to stay at a safe, standoff distance. He doesn't have to go into unnecessary danger. Lucy: Right. Helen: Our servicemen and women, you know, are exposed to a lot of danger when you send them to roadside bombs when a robot could do the job instead. We think that's really something that should be changed quickly, and it has changed very rapidly. Just two years ago they would suit up a soldier in a bomb suit and send them down range, and now you have to get permission to do that. The common operating procedure is to send a robot into the danger. Larry: That sounds like iRobot is doing everything from saving backs in kitchens to saving lives in dangerous situations. Let me see if I can migrate to the entrepreneur part of you. What is it that made you become, or why are you an entrepreneur? Helen: I was deeply interested in making robots into an industry. People have been talking about robots. They have been in science fiction for decades and decades. Yet, when I started in this field I looked around and there were very few robots that people could actually purchase and could actually use. When I was at the university at MIT the people worked on wonderful robot projects. It was really, really cool technology, but when the PhD got done or when the project ended, all of it would kind of stop and then somebody would start a new project potentially building on some of the results. But the actual robot that was built. many times progress stopped on it. Just like the computer industry, I believe it takes a company that can reinvest some of the profits back into the next generation and the next improvements on the products that really has started the industry to take off. Lucy: Well next the definition that I carry in my head of true innovation is taking research and the types of projects you are talking about, Helen, and driving them out into the consumer space and into the mass market. That is what innovation is all about. Larry: You bet. By the way, what is it about being an entrepreneur, what is it that makes you tick and turns you on as an entrepreneur? Helen: Being an entrepreneur is creating something out of nothing. You know, when you start it, it's all consuming. It takes your whole focus. It is very compelling to me. I tend to be someone who when they jump into something they jump into it with absolutely full force, and it allowed me to learn so much along the way. Everything from how to hire people, how to apply for and win a military research contract, how to raise venture capital, how to set up a management structure and, very recently, how to take a company public. Lucy: Helen, tell us, obviously, entrepreneurship makes you tick. You love to create things from nothing, and along the way as you chose this career path, who influenced you? What kind of mentors did you have? Helen: I have had a lot of advisors who I could talk to about the different stages of the business, and that's been an incredible gift. That is one of the most valuable things you can give: the benefit of your own experience. Early on I was influenced by my dad having founded a company, so entrepreneurship was part of my culture growing up. Larry: So, it's not genetic. It's part of the culture, right? Helen: I believe that. Larry: You, I'm sure, like all of us entrepreneurs ‑‑ you know, Pat and I, we have been in business together and entrepreneurs for over 30 years. There are a lot of bumps and things along the road. What would be some of the most challenging things that you have experienced? Helen: Well, iRobot has been in business for 17 years, and it's a lot different company today than when we founded it. Early on, this was a bootstrap company, credit cards filled to the max. Larry: So you made money right away? Helen: Yeah. Larry: You were profitable right away? Yeah. Lucy: Like many of us. Helen: No, we really had a bumpy beginning because in part the technology wasn't ready yet upon time. So we came up with a method to develop the technology and to develop business plans so when the opportunity was right we could capitalize on it. Lucy: So, as we shift a little bit now toward the future entrepreneurs, if you were giving advise to people about entrepreneurship, young people, about the career path you have chosen being an entrepreneur, what would you tell them? What advice would you give them? Helen: I would say, definitely do it, because it's probably one of the most rewarding career paths you can take. One of the most challenging, but one of the most rewarding. I would say very strongly, don't do it like we did it at iRobot. IRobot, we didn't do it with a business plan. We didn't start a real crisp idea of what these robots would used for. We basically started with the future of the technology and it happens to have worked for us, but it was a long haul in the early years. I think if I had it to do over again, it would be done a lot more efficiently. Larry: When did you finally get the real management team put together? Helen: In 1998 we decided to take venture capital for the first time. And that was a big decision because that's what took it from being more of a lifestyle company, somewhat of a research lab. Folks were building any kind of robot, because they were passionate about it. Some of them are quite frankly cool to a real business concern. You could almost consider the company a re‑start in 1998. It only took the first venture capital, which allowed us to invest in the management team and take it to the next level. Also to invest in our own product lines, rather than relying on government contracts coming in or strategic relationships with larger companies. Larry: Well, you have been very passionate about iRobots and you've also been very humble in terms of what you have done, what you have been through. What are some of the characteristics that maybe have been a benefit to you in becoming a successful entrepreneur? Helen: I'd say the biggest one is persistence. There will always be speed bumps along the way. And generally being able to say, OK, I might not have the solution to this problem right now, but I know that there's a way. And either by talking to people, getting advice, by brainstorming with people, by being creative, by thinking out of the box. There is always a way to get through any problem that presents itself. It's takes persistence to do that because you will get knocked quite a few times along the road. Being able to pick yourself up, dust off and say, I learned from that experience, I won't do it again. We don't look at anything at iRobot as failed. This got us to the next step and the next step was different, but they were all stepping‑stones to where we are today. And many of them were necessary. Larry: I have heard that persistence is omnipotence. Lucy: Sometime we refer to it as relentlessness. Larry: Oh, is that what that is. Lucy: Yes. I also have to say something about Helen how and just as a sidebar: Helen gives one of the best talks on robotics I have ever seen. Helen, your talk at the Grace Harper Conference was outrageously good. Helen: Oh, well I appreciate that. One of the things that I would like for folks listening to know that it is important to be able to grab the microphone and get your message across. My personal background is: I was extremely shy, terribly afraid of public speaking. You know, reports that people who would rather do anything else sometimes than get up in front of a group of people and speak. I was one of those people. It doesn't come naturally to me. But I recognized that it was important in getting the message of the company across. I really worked on how to improve and just by taking speaking opportunities I got better and better at it. Which doesn't mean I will ever be a natural just really, really want to jump out and do it. If I can do it, anybody can learn to be a better public speaker. So they can take advantage of the opportunities to get their message out that it provides. Larry: It might not be natural but you certainly are unique and passionate. Lucy: The best talk I've heard, a mix of computer science and business and humor, it's wonderful. Helen: That is very nice of you. It means a lot because I did have to work harder than people who are naturals, "Yes, I want the mike!" Lucy: One of the things that our listeners will be interested in. The entrepreneurial life is a tough life. It is a lot of work and yet it is important to bring balance between our personal lives and our professional lives. So what kinds of hints do you have to pass along? Helen: I don't think I'm a shining example of balance in my life, but I can say the philosophy I've always had is: work hard, play hard. So, when I do take off from iRobot, being able to go out snowboarding, being able to tight‑board, being able to go scuba diving. I'm just learning how to tight‑board. I have a goal to learn one new sport each year, because it's good to take up something new and to me I like doing it in the athletic arena. Lucy: Well, it sounds like fun to me. Larry: Lucy likes to go out there and jog every day after... Lucy: Well, you're right I'm not that good at it either, but I still get out there. Larry: I can't help but ask this. You know, you have had a very exciting and challenging ‑‑ and obviously with the persistence and the talent ‑‑ you really accomplished a great deal. I know you want to accomplish a great deal more with iRobot. What's next for you? Helen: Well, the challenges that iRobot faces today are different than when we were a start up company. Now we have over 350 people. In 2006 we did just about $189 million in revenues and now it's about making the organization click, to function as a team, and making sure that things work like clockwork at the organization, while still keeping that innovative flair, so you can get the next generation of products into the pipeline. Lucy: So, I have to ask, just because I love iRobot so much, what's the next great product? Can you spill the beans? Helen: I can't tell you what the next consumer robot products are, but on the military side, we have a hugely exciting robot that can run over 12 miles an hour, that can carry a soldier's pack. It's got a manipulator on it that can pick up a Howitzer shell. That thing picked me up the other day. Lucy: Oh. Larry: Wow. Helen: We're very excited to get that type of capability also into hands of our soldiers. Lucy: Wow, that's pretty exciting. Larry: Nothing like getting picked up. Boy, that's for sure. Lucy: I don't know what I would do if a robot picked me up, but I guess one of these days maybe we'll experience ‑‑ we'll get you to bring that to one of our meetings, Helen. That would be very cool. Larry: I'd love a picture of that for the website. Lucy: Yeah, thank you. OK. Larry: Helen, I want to thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited about this program. When we get to talk to people like you with your background and your experience, it makes it just that much more exciting and motivating to a number of young people. Helen: Well, I appreciate it. Lucy: Well, and we want everybody to know where they can find these podcasts. They are accessible on the NCWIT website at ww.NCWIT.org And along with the podcast, his information about entrepreneurism and how people can be more involved as entrepreneurs and also get resources on the web and also from other organizations, should they be interested. Larry: Yes, and thank you for all of the great hints and probably more than that, some really golden nuggets in there. One that's sticking out in my mind right now is the mass‑market adoption. I guess that is what we all want to charge for. Helen: It's not where we started out, but it is where we're fully focused at. Lucy: Well, thank you very much. Helen: OK, thank you. Have a good one. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Helen GreinerInterview Summary: Helen Greiner is co-founder and Chairman of the Board of iRobot Corp., maker of the Roomba® Vacuuming Robot (over 2M units sold) and the iRobot PackBot® Tactical Mobile Robot, which deactivates mines in Iraq and Afghanistan. Release Date: June 11, 2007Interview Subject: Helen GrenierInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 15:30

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Gillian Muessig President and Co-founder, SEOmoz Date: May 9, 2011 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes: Interview with Gillian Muessig [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi. This is Lucy Sanders, the CEO of the National Center for Women in Information Technology, or NCWIT. I know our listeners know about our "Entrepreneurial Heroes" interview series, which is a great interview series with women who have started IT companies. This is another in that series. With me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi. I'm happy to be here, of course. We really enjoy the fact that everybody from parents as well as employers and leaders and managers, as well as teenage girls, listen to this show. Lucy: I think the person we're interviewing today is just an expert in search optimization. Everybody knows how important the Internet is, and how important it is to have your business, your organization, your personality, found by the most possible people. The person we're interviewing today is a real pioneer in that field, sometimes called the "Queen of Search Optimization." Larry: You betcha. Gillian Muessig: No, I think I'm called the "mom." I'm known as "SEO Mom." Lucy: SEO Mom? OK. Also a queen. We are very lucky to be interviewing today Gillian Muessig, the president and co-founder of SEOmoz. SEOmoz provides one of the world's most popular search marketing applications. The community it serves is huge, over 300,000 search marketers around the world. She also has a weekly radio show, "CEO Coach." This is really interesting to the people who listen to these interviews, because as part of that show, she's covering really important entrepreneurial issues around funding and finance and staffing and marketing and brand development. Welcome, Gillian. We're really happy to have you here today. Gillian: I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for asking. Lucy: What is happening with SEOmoz? Give us the latest. Gillian: The latest and greatest at SEOmoz. Well, I guess we're taking social signals much more seriously, as are the search engines these days. We are the creators of something called "Linkscape." It is a fresh web crawl of the World Wide Web. In other words, we have code known as "Bots" that run out along the Web itself and catalog the pages, just like Google or Microsoft or Yahoo! And so on, in this case Bing, it would be called these days. Similarly, we have a bot that goes out and crawls the Web. It's called, as I said, "Linkscape." It gives us the link graph of the Web. This means how all the pages are connected together with links from one page to the next. It's interesting stuff. It does not make us a search engine. A search engine can also give back answers when you say, "Gee, I'm looking for something. Where is it?" You could also give that back to somebody. That's what makes a full search engine. So if you think of Linkscape, you might think of it as kind of half a search engine. We know what is. Now, we are taking a look at the social graph. So while we crawl the Web for information about links running from here to there, we know that the social signals, which means the noise or the signals we hear on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Cora, Yahoo! Answers -- just thousands of other sites where people gather and talk to each other on the Web. Those are the social sites. When they get busy, the search engines notice, and that kind of information shows up in the search engine results pages, known as SERPs, Search Engine Results Pages. So that's what's new at SEOmoz. We're looking at the social signals and incorporating them into our platform. Lucy: That's amazing. There's so much information going on out there. Absolutely amazing. And great technology. The kinds of algorithms you're doing under the hood there just have to be really fascinating. Gillian: Yeah, they're pretty exciting stuff. If you think of the Google algorithm, I usually say, "Well, it starts somewhere in central Asia and it ends in Sunnyvale, California." It's really large, and it links 1's and 0's. That means it's changing constantly. What is it? 2,500 to 3,000 brilliant engineers are working on it at any given time. What they're trying to do is say, "Gosh, there's a lot of info out there. How would we catalog it and organize it to be on the Web?" And that's the world we deal in. Lucy: I know. Who would have thought it, even 10 years ago? Just amazing. Larry: Whew, not me. [laughter] Gillian: It's a very new industry, and that is one of the interesting things about the world of search. While some technology industries have been around for maybe 30 or 40 years, or much more, the Industrial Age certainly giving way to the Technological Age toward the end of the 20th century. The world of search is pretty much the oldest folks would have been practicing some '97, '98, '99, something like that, when the search engines became of age and became more important, and people began to find things on the Web using a search engine as opposed to using business card that sent them to a specific place. Lucy: It's really changed quite quickly. The historical perspective is fascinating and I think our first question is a little bit of a historical question. How did you first get into technology, Gillian, and what kinds of technologies do you see today that are really interesting to you? Gillian: When I opened my company, it was in 1981, I had one young child a two-year-old at the time. I subsequently raised three children under my desk. The youngest will tell you the color of the blanket he slept on under that desk, so I'm talking literally. I think in 1984, I was doing a consultancy basically, so glorified and employed. I was a consultant. I did traditional media marketing, everything from print media to a little bit of radio and television and so on, but regional stuff. In terms of print media, the first pieces of technology that we really saw came in the late '70's already, when type was no longer moved by pieces. Little slugs of type, and made out of lead, would be moved into place in big wooden boards, and that's how the articles of newspapers were created for advertisements and so on. When it moved from that manual process to something called code type, because the first one was Hocks type. You would actually move the little slugs into place and then melt them together. You would use heat to make sure that they were held together, and then you would break them apart for the next day's news. In this case it was called Cove type, and that was the first computerized type. Maybe that was the first time I got into technology, or really saw it affecting my industry. In 1984, I put a Mac II on my desk. I had more self-control than this advertisement that was coming out of Zenith said I would. It said, "We'll give you one of these Macs for two weeks. You pay us for it, but you can just bring it back and we'll give you your money back if you don't want it." I thought, "Well, I've got more self-control than that. I'm just going to take a look at this thing." Within two hours, of course, it owned me, body, soul and mind, and I never gave it back. [laughter] Gillian: The ad worked, and I bought a Mac. I used Mac for many years. I changed to PC I guess in the '90's. Just recently, we're talking within the last couple of weeks, one of my staff handed me a Mac Air, it's called the MacBook Air, and said, "You're going to love this! It's so lightweight." And I thought, "Really? Back to Mac? I'm an old dog. This is new tricks." [laughs] But yes, I do enjoy carrying it around, because I travel so much that having a very lightweight computer at my fingertips is really nice. So first technology would have been 1979. The First time I owned a real piece of it, if you will, in about 1984. The Web showed up in 1993. Perhaps what you were referring to before, kind of the Grand Dame of Internet marketing, because I was there six seconds before the next guy. In other words, it was just a wild and wooly time, and I was happy to be at ground zero. We had a great deal of excitement and ideas around it. I continued my business for a number of years, but certainly we were beginning to do things like offer websites to our clients, in which we were doing general graphics or advertisements, or perhaps annual reports and logos and that sort of design. We were now adding websites to that, and then we were adding better websites, because we had Flash. Then it was realized that the search engines were becoming more important, and search engines could not read Flash. A search bot is blind and deaf. It cannot see pictures, it cannot hear sound. So we had to go back to HTML and maybe incorporate elements of images and so on, and identify them. With that, search began. As a search engine became more important and required text to be able to find out what a document was about, we had to optimize a page. It meant you couldn't just put a picture on a page, because a search engine cannot see it. You had to tell it what that picture was. That, perhaps, was the very first piece of optimization. How we'd label pages, we'd say, "This page is about something. It's my website.com." Then you would put in a subject, you know, red cars. [laughs] And, "Oh! That page must be about red cars." The very beginnings of search engine optimization were very simple. Today it's a highly complex field. We don't even think of it as SEO. So answering the second half of your question, what do I find interesting in moving forward now? Certainly, we are deep into the information society, where information is power. It always has been, but it's just become more in the forefront. The concept of marketing has changed, both online and offline. It's changing the way we do business and the way we communicate. From governments to private corporations and individual human beings, we think of things now as inbound marketing, as opposed to push marketing. It used to be that I would make an ad, and I would kind of take a megaphone in whatever field I was in, whether it was print or radio or TV or whatever, and shout out to the world what I needed them to know. That's no longer acceptable. People don't like it. They never really did like it, but now they have choices. Now people want me to give them information when they want to see it, when they want to learn about it and when they are ready for it and in the way that they wish to see it. That means multiple-size screens such as iPhones, little phones, Android and things like that, cell phones, web-enabled cell phones, to iPad and similarly-sized screens to the next size, which is Netbooks and then laptops, to the huge screens that sit on our walls at home and sometimes cover entire walls. That would be 55-, 60-, and 70-inch television screens that also serve as interactive, Internet-capable products. I find that kind of technology fascinating and I think that's where we're headed in the future, a multi-sized delivery of information just when the consumer wants it. Larry: Gillian, thank you for sharing all that history. In fact, we are going to make sure that if people want to understand the history, they should come back and listen to this interview. Now why is it that you are an entrepreneur and what is it about an entrepreneurship that makes you tick? Gillian: [laughs] Entrepreneurship is a hereditary disease, not a profession. [laughter] I say to people often (I do a lot of coaching about entrepreneurship and I serve on the board of advisors of companies on four continents now) that entrepreneurship is something that you have to want, and you have to want it so desperately that you are willing to walk through what I call "the Dip." I know Seth Cotton talks about it. There's a fine little book called The Dip. But I see it slightly differently. The very short version is that in order to get to the other side of a chasm of all of the folks who are trying to do what you're doing and overcoming all of the impediments to success, you have to walk through this valley of the shadow of death. After that, we don't get quite that translation correct. It's not that "Yet I fear no evil". It's "If you fear no evil, you will not walk out." [laughter] So understanding entrepreneurship is: You have a great idea, and you decide you want to bring it to the marketplace, but you must walk through this chasm of impediments to success. And sometimes it gets very, very dark. I help entrepreneurs through that space quite often. It is not just that there are financial qualifications. For instance, one needs funding and that can be very difficult. Or perhaps one can fund it oneself, but are you willing to put at risk all of the monies required to do so? People will put their homes at risk. They will mortgage things and sell their vehicles and live with their parents and do all kinds of things in order to afford to make this thing fly. It's like throwing money at a passion. But in some ways it's very analogous to being addicted. You must do this thing once you get it going, right? Now the second piece is not financial stuff necessarily, but how everybody else looks at you. There are a number of entrepreneurs, some of them very amusing, who are radio personalities as well who will say things like the whole world will tell you that you are stark, raving mad. That there's no way you can do this, that it's not possible, and so on. And when all of that volume of voice and noise comes at you, do you have the fortitude to continue to walk and to say, "No, I know in my gut what I've got is right and I'm going to make it happen." Then the last piece would be the strength of this idea you have. If you're building it, for example, in technology and software, will this code hold up to what you need? If you have some kind of success, do your servers crash, do things begin to fall apart, can you do the customer service part, and can you do the company part and not just the idea part? What I say is that every truly brilliant company in the world has two parts. It has a technologist, a wizard, the brilliant idea person. And it has a business person. The business person's responsibility is to protect the wizard. If the wizard is thinking about anything else except what's next, you're losing money. Now any business person can make themselves a business. They can go sell shoes. They can go sell office furniture. They can do whatever they want. They make a decent business and sometimes they make quite a good one. Many, many technologists have brilliant ideas, but cannot for the life of them do the business piece of it. There are far more technologists who cannot succeed in business than there are business people who somehow cannot succeed at all because they don't have the brilliancy. But if you put the two together, you get something that is an explosion, an extraordinary universe of stuff that happens. And that's when you have these brilliant companies like Yahoo, Google, and so on. I was fortunate in my time to have such a technologist and to be able to work with him. I'm really in the end a business person. The technologist is Rand Fishkin, arguably the most famous name in search marketing today. I could build a brand around a human being. I could then build a brand around the company, and then the company has become very powerful in its field. Again, knowing your playing field is an important piece. But I have walked through that dip, that "valley of the shadow of death" when people told us this could not be done. I often say people who say that a thing cannot be done are often interrupted by those who are doing it. So, on October 6, 2008, SEOmoz interrupted a whole lot of people when we created this thing called Linkscape, which is a crawl of the World Wide Web. A whole lot of people said you have to be Google or Bing or whatever to do something like that. It cannot be done. It'll take ten thousand brilliant engineers and millions of dollars and you haven't got that. We did it. And when it was done, it powered all of our tool sets. So why am I an entrepreneur? It's because it's in my blood. It's because I see ideas. I can kind of put together a meal of products out of groups of intellectual properties, if you will. It's like throwing a bunch of ingredients on the table in the kitchen and coming up with a meal. It's like what Iron Chefs do. The same idea happens with entrepreneurship and it's what I do. I look at this collatinus collection of clattering junk and from it comes a product that is saleable. So that is what I think makes entrepreneurs what they are. It's the fortitude to move forward. It's the ability to see a jumble of ideas and possibilities and to create real product out of it. And brilliant companies or really brilliant entrepreneurs, those who have that partner technologist [inaudible 17:05. Lucy: So as an entrepreneur, Gillian, who supported you along this path? Do you have particular mentors or role models? What might you be able to tell the listeners about that? Gillian: Well, I think that's why I became a CEO coach, because there were precious few when I came through this path. I see that Rand, for example, who is now the CEO of SEOmoz, has a number of mentors who are coming to his aid and whom he has been able to seek out. But as we walked the very earliest days, there were things that I would have given my left arm to have known about. There were times when I would call practically a hundred people and not one of them could give me the answer I needed. So in a sense, I was not well-connected and I didn't have entrepreneurs who had been successful on at least one level larger than I was. I think there are very few when you are in the very, very early stages who will reach that hand out. You have to get through a certain barrier first. You have to reach some kind of critical mass before it gets recognized as a viable business and then you get those kinds of mentors beginning to take notice. So I decided that if I ever walked out of that valley, that's what I would do, that's what I would give back. That's why I do CEO coach every week. I don't get paid for this or anything. I promised that I would give answers, that I would name names and give numbers and tell people what to expect and help them to leverage the assets they had and to walk through that very difficult time when you are proving your concept and making it through to the other side. Of course, the scarcity is what makes success. If it were easy, if there were no chasm of all of these impediments-and I only mentioned three, but if it were easy to get from one end to the other, from brilliant idea to successful marketplace for everybody, then there would be no scarcity. Trust me when I say to people who are considering entrepreneurship, it's worth it. [laughter] Larry: I love it! Yes. Gillian: It is so worthwhile on the other side. The answer is, it is all the things that you would dream it would be. There is a certain amount of exclusivity. There is a satisfaction beyond anything else that comes from knowing you did it. Larry: Wow. With all the things you've been through, what's the toughest thing that you've had to do in your career? Gillian: Possibly two pieces and I think they're related. The very first one I had to learn to do was to move from being a consultant, a sole consultant, to being a real entrepreneur, somebody who had a company, who had people working with them, in other words, a team. I used to walk out, shake hands with somebody, and say, "Yes sir, I can do that," and go back and do it. That was easy. Whatever it was, it was easy. It meant I did it. I could rely on me and I knew my own mettle and I could trust me. The first time I walked out and said, "Yes sir, I can do that," and went back to the office and said, "I sure as shooting hope you folks can do that, because I can't," that was scary. To be able to rely on a team of people to do it as well as you would hope them to do because you cannot do a thing, that's entrepreneurship. That's really moving from being a sole proprietor to being a full-size company. The second piece was saying no to a customer, understanding that there are clients and client wannabes. They wannabe a client but they don't wanna pay. Client wannabees. Learning to recognize client wannabes in your business sector is terribly important, because otherwise they will suck the blood out of you and never pay for what they take. Generally they pay very low amounts, the lowest you will charge, and they take the most time. The less a client pays, the more hand holding they generally need. So understanding that you need to fire the bottom four clients on your list every year and make way for new ones who will pay you more, respect you more, understand the value of your service more and so on, that's a critical piece of success in moving forward in being a company. People who cannot let a client go regardless of how much this client fusses and complains and makes it a personal thing as opposed to a business thing and so on, doesn't recognize the value of the service, on and on and on. All of these complaints about the client, if they cannot let that client go they will forever be an individual consultant that's not terribly successful. Those who can get through it and understand the process become successful companies. Lucy: Along our discussion there have been so many characteristics that come across in your answers to these questions that I think make you a great entrepreneur. You're very thoughtful, very persistent. I think you're very funny, you have a great sense of humor and have a great sense of history and analytical, but what other kinds of personal characteristics do you think have given you an advantage as an entrepreneur? Gillian: I think that perhaps that is the most important question. I espouse and I truly believe that people should bring their personal values to the corporate marketplace. Separating them is not possibility and that we kid ourselves when we do it. It also makes for a, not just lesser, but a really foul business environment and I think for centuries we've experienced it. I hope that what I build is not perhaps the world's finest search marketing software company and this and that and the next thing, but another way to do business. Often it's known as theory X and theory Y management. Theory X management being all about the fix, about fear, about worrying about whether the boss is going to dislike this or deduct that or reduce your pay or fire you and so on and so forth. That's theory X stuff, screaming, yelling and so on. Theory Y is somehow coddling, if you will. All about the positive but I think there is more to theory Y than simply coddling or supporting and so on. I think it has to do with bringing your personal values to the corporate marketplace. As an entrepreneur I can't have a company unless I have people doing the things that my company produces whether it's product, service, consulting, whatever it is. They don't work for me, they work with me. Without me they have no job and without them I have no job. It's not that it's really different at all, it's just different roles within an organization. I recognize that there is no complete, flat equality. There is no such ideas, communism if you will. It is a hierarchy and certainly it was my money on the table, it was on my back that this thing got started, it was Rand's ideas and so on that made it happen. All of those things, so it does put a couple of founders in its place that is different than the employee status, if you will. On the other hand, we feel that we work with a team, it's not that the team works for us. When I didn't have two nickels to rub together, when we were having conversations that said things like, 'What will it take to keep body and soul together this week?' Like, who shall take a paycheck this week? When we were having those kinds of conversations, it was that bad, I would pay the medical insurance 100% in full first. I never even thought to give somebody a salary and let them choose whether or not they wanted medical insurance. It's part of the salary, it's part of the package, there is no choice because many of the people who work for me are very young and when you're very young you think you're invincible. Nothing is ever going to happen to you and you will live forever and life is good until somebody gets glioblastoma or somebody gets hit by a bus riding a bicycle to work in the afternoon, that's when things go wrong. It was incumbent upon me to say, "No. I know better, I've lived longer, I'm a parent." Never mind anything else and many of these people are young enough to be my kids, hence the word SEO mom but there were a number of reasons why I got called SEO mom but as a result it was my responsibility to do those kinds of things. So we pay 100% of medical insurance. We do kind of what they call platinum level medical insurance. we don't skimp on those kinds of things. Certainly we do things like tech companies to all over the place like the Googleplex will do and so on. We offer lunch here and breakfast there and something else and we celebrate things and it's a lot of fun But we actually walk the talk, if you look at the SEOmoz website there's something called TAGSEE, T-A-G-S-E-E. The first one stands for transparency, second letter, authenticity, the third, generosity and so on down the road, you can read all about it. We don't just say it we actually live it. We hire for personality first and then we look for skill sets which makes it difficult to find people because you can find a set of skills it's just, does it also come with the right kind of personality? I was talking about it with one of my staff this morning and I said, "You know, I think what happens here is very childlike or perhaps like going to the movies." We suspend belief when we go into the movies. We suspend belief every time we walk into this office. We are complete optimists. We should all have our own [inaudible 26:30] chapter here. We walk in and pretend that it's possible, that nothing is impossible and we do it every single day. We work and live and play with the people here, and they certainly do, they have all kinds of activities around the office and outside the office and just get together because they're friends as well. Because it's like souls, if you will, we all agree that you step into this room there is nothing we cannot do and doggone, we do it. Imagine what you can accomplish. I think that because we spend so much of our time at our workplaces, I know that we change jobs much more frequently than we did a generation or two ago but even still, for the time that we are all together it's much more than just a job. This is about fulfilling the soul as well as the business career requirements of the people who work here. I think of my job as giving everyone here wings to fly and then watch them fly. Larry: Gillian, with all the things that you've done, what do you do to bring balance to your personal and professional lives? Gillian: I guess that's kind of the answer I gave at the last question. Larry: Yeah. Gillian: I bring my personal life to life to the office. I don't think of it as work, I think it was Thomas Edison who said, "'I never worked a day in my life, it's all fun." When I was a little girl of three or four years old and I could turn the pages of a book I wanted to see this big wide world. I am the most fortunate person in the world. I get to run around the world as what's now known as corporate evangelist for SEOmoz. This is what happens by the way when they put you out to pasture. Before, I was the sole business person that was complementing the technologist that was Rand Fishkin. Rand is now the CEO, he has full reigns of the business, but there's only one strange relationship in business, and that's mother and son. You can't be a mommy's boy as a CEO so it was time for me to step way, way back. We have a COO here, we've got a CMO here, we've got a CPO, all of those C level executive places have now been filled and all of the things that I used to do, these eight and nine and ten hats, they're being worn by 10 and 12 and 14 people. If I was still doing all of them we would still be a tiny company. So it's important to seed the company, to let it grow and to let it expand. For me now, my job is to run around the world and make sure people say SEOmoz instead of SEO and so far so good, it's pretty cool. I get to be paid for this, what an extraordinary adventure. For me this balance of life and work and so on, it's fulfilling on so many levels. I'm, as I said, the most fortunate person in the world. Lucy: I noticed when we were researching for this interview that you have given lots and lots of keynotes and talks so you must be quite successful in your evangelist role. Gillian: Yes, I'd say so. I have somewhat of a reputation under SEO mom myself, if you will, under Gillian Muessig but I usually say, I don't go anywhere in the world, SEOmoz goes, it shows up in my body. Yes, I do a lot of keynote speaking, I do a lot of pro bono work and I support a tremendous number of entrepreneurs around the world and it's very gratifying. Lucy: Thank you very much for doing that. You've done so much with your career so far. I am suspicious that there's more to come so why don't you tell us a little bit about what's next for you. Gillian: Probably a book, a number of people are telling me it's time to do that so I have to knuckle down and do that but I think that's just in support of, if you will, a personal brand. I think the next thing, when I grow up, what do I want to be? The next thing that I will do is around entrepreneurship itself. I'm focusing more and more on it over the years. I have a serious interest in what you're doing essentially, in making sure that young women somewhere between the ages of 12 and 20 don't lose themselves and their souls in just societal expectations and norms, but do turn to the hard sciences, to technology, to science, to mathematics, to physics, all of those kinds of things and certainly to web related or intellectual property related fields. All of those things are terribly exciting. Women make very good mangers. They have traditionally not been part of it and I think whatever I do in the future will be helping to open the doors so that women can enter the marketplace in their rightful numbers if you will. We spend a tremendous amount of time in my childhood and youth as women working on those issues. It was the age feminism, it was the age of all of those kinds of rebellions and so on. We worked really, really hard guys but, gosh, we've got a long ways to go so rather than apologizing for the next generation, I think my next deal will be helping that next generation reach goals that we have only dreamed of. Lucy: Thank you for doing that and thank you for all of your hard work for entrepreneurship, in general. We'll look forward to staying in touch, it was great fun talking to you and I want to remind listeners that they can find this interview at w3w3.com and also ncwit.org. Larry: You betcha. Gillian: Thank you, it's been a great pleasure. If I have only one message for the young women listening, it's do it. Don't fear it, just do it. There's lots of women out there ready to extend a helping hand in making sure that you're successful, too. Lucy. Thank you. Larry: You betcha. Lucy: We really appreciate that. Larry: Thank you. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Gillian MuessigInterview Summary: Gillian Muessig, aka "SEOMom," is the President and Co-Founder of SEOmoz, providers of the world's most popular search marketing applications. SEOmoz.org serves a community of 300,000 search marketers around the world. Release Date: May 9, 2011Interview Subject: Gillian MuessigInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 31:22

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Laura Fitton CEO and Co-founder, OneForty Date: April 25, 2011 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes: Interview with Laura Fitton [musical introduction] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders, the CEO of NCWIT, the National Center for Women In Information Technology. This is the next interview in a series of interviews we've had with women who have started wonderfully successful tech companies. We're always interested to catch up with our latest entrepreneur and see what she's doing. With me is Larry Nelson, W3W3.com. What's going on at W3W3, Larry? What's the news? Larry Nelson: Well, I'm trying to learn more about Twitter. Other than that, things are going good. We've got a number of business people who tune into the various shows with NCWIT. It's not only business leaders and parents, but also many young women who listen for some great ideas. Lucy: Today we're interviewing someone who is known as the Queen of Twitter, Laura Fitton. I guess that's why you said something about Twitter, isn't it? [laughter] Well, you need to get the number right in your Twitter. Larry: I was just trying to check her out there. Lucy: We're interviewing somebody who is known as the Queen of Twitter, Laura Fitton. Laura Fitton: [laughter] I think Lady Gaga deserves the crown now. Lucy: Lady Gaga! Laura: Once upon a time. Lucy: [laughter] That would be great, maybe we should try to interview Lady Gaga. Any way, Laura is the founder of oneforty.com. Oneforty.com helps people understand Twitter and the exploding ecosystem of applications and services built on it. Oneforty.com has been called the "app store" for Twitter by TechCrunch and others. It's really a place to find awesome tools that really help you use Twitter, not just in ways for yourself but also for your business and so forth. I went and looked at some of the apps there and it just shows how much I need to catch up on the world of Twitter. [laughter] Laura: It's so true. We started out the Consumer App store and quickly learned from our users that they need us to cut through all the noise and provide them with reporting, with solutions to streamline their social business. Oneforty.com is really the place where tool providers, experts, and business leaders are sharing all their advice and lessons learned regarding social business. If your business needs to be getting into social media, this is the place to start. Lucy: Well, Laura, we're really happy you're here today. Maybe you could start off quickly telling us the latest news from oneforty.com. I think it's a place that most of us really need to know about. Laura: Sure! Thank you. In the last four months, we've done a pretty significant pivot, again user-led. We offered people a little thing we called "Toolkits," which were these humble little lists. The idea was, well you're using Twitter online but you're also using it on your phone and a few other places, using a lot of different tools. People came in and said, "Well, here's how to market a car dealership," "Here's how to market a restaurant." Or, "Here's what a realtor needs to know about social media and social business." So we responded to our users like any good startup does. In the last three weeks, we have completely relaunched the site centered around four business personas. All of the directory is still there, but we're really focusing it on connecting people with what they need to streamline and scale social. Lucy: So oneforty.com three weeks ago had a relaunch? That's pretty exciting news. Like I said, the site was just great and I really enjoyed looking at it yesterday. Laura: Thank you so much. The other thing that's new is that I was just on a webinar where I gave a sneak preview of some products that we're just launching that put everything you need for social all in one place-tools, all the workflow, all the guides on what to do next. Kind of training wheels for social engagement, making it really easy. Lucy: So Laura, it's really pretty exciting times at oneforty.com. Thanks very much for telling us all about the new site launch three weeks ago. It's really a great site and we really appreciated taking a look at it earlier this week. One of the things we like to find out from our entrepreneurs is how they first got interested in technology, as well as ask them a follow-up question to that where we ask them to look into their crystal ball regarding which technologies they think are out there that will change things even more? Laura: Awesome. Well I was a kid who was really into science, so I came to technology through science. In fact, my degree is in Environmental Science and Public Policy. I always played around with consumer web technologies, but never got involved in software development or anything like that, quite up until I did the startup. So it was a very odd choice for me, because I'd never seen software built. I knew tons of people in the interactive industry who did build software. I had lots of friends who had invested in it, had worked at startups, had run startups. But I myself had never done it. My connection to startups was that I was kind of a communications consultant. I did a lot of work on helping people to present and speak more effectively. And obviously entrepreneurs are constantly on the hot-seat having to present, so I stayed very close to the startup community but never dove into it myself. Long story short, I moved to Boston in 2006 just in time to have my second kid. They're like 14 or 15 months apart. I've no business network up here and I have to restart that communications consulting firm after nearly two years out of the market. So I get into blogging. I hear about this Twitter thing. I blog how stupid this Twitter thing is, around March 2007. And then two months later, the nickel drops and I say, wait a minute. I can surround myself with successful, interesting people and still be this home-based mom of two kids under two, and yet stay motivated and inspired throughout my workday. And that is exactly what appealed to me about Twitter when Twitter finally did appeal to me. Then I got so emphatic over how so much it was changing my life and how amazing and exciting it was for me that I just ran out there with this blog post called, "Ode to Twitter" on something like August 11, 2007. I mailed it to Guy Kawasaki, who, believe me, had never heard of me. And I just started telling everyone who would listen. To my great luck, Guy Kawasaki did listen and then turned around and trumpeted to the rest of the world. So in this very short time, I went from not even really knowing what the term "web 2.0" means in March 2007 to being profiled by the author of "Naked Conversations," one of the first major books in the space, less than a year later in April 2008. The next month, Wiley is coming to me asking me to write "Twitter for Dummies." I'm relaunching my communications consulting firm as a Twitter for business consulting firm, which was a little insane to do in September 2008. It was still really early on the concept and I'm just incredibly lucky that I staked my career on Twitter and not on one of the competitors like Pounce or Plurk, most of which have dried up or disappeared. I got very excited about a technology, because it made huge personal and professional changes in my life. It's like the classic adage to follow your passion and you can't go wrong. I was still was dragged into it kicking and screaming, though. For four months after having the idea for oneforty.com, I was trying to pawn it off on somebody else. But hey, you go build the startup and I'll advise. I'm smart enough to not do a startup. I know they're kind of hell. I'm in the middle of a divorce and have two very young kids. (They were two and three at the time.) And yet I failed at quitting it. I kept trying to quit it and I kept failing at quitting. So in March 2009 I finally started it up in earnest and it's been two years now. Lucy: You know, your comments kind of lead to our second question. Larry: Boy, I'll say, is that a fact. Here you came into this thing through science. You've been through all the different types of things, you knew you wanted to give it up. But... Lucy: And she tried to not be an entrepreneur. Larry: Yeah, exactly. Laura: I tried so hard. I'd worked for a startup in my 20s and the guy was nuts. [laughter] Laura: I've worked with a lot of entrepreneurs and I love entrepreneurs. You have to be fundamentally out of touch with reality on some level to be an entrepreneur, because otherwise you would know that your idea can't possibly work. You need enough detachment from that to be able to go make it work. Which is great, but boy, it puts you into some weird places, doesn't it? Larry: Boy, I'll say so. What is it about entrepreneurship that makes you tick? Laura: I don't know, because I never thought I was an entrepreneur until this happened. [laughter] I have mad curiosity. I love to see things for myself. One of the people who has been kind enough to mentor me is Tony Hsieh, who is the CEO of Zappos. I won't be able to remember exactly what they were, but he asked me three very simple framing questions when I was kind of whimpering and whimpering and saying that I couldn't possibly be the CEO. It was, "Do you have that natural drive and curiosity?" "Do you want to see things for yourself?" And one other thing. He said, "If you have that, you're good. Everything else, you can learn." Lucy: Zappos is a great company. I just ordered my son four birthday shirts from them. Larry: Oh, all right! [laughter] Laura: That's the [inaudible 9:00] , girl. Tony is a fantastic human being, very generous with what little time he has. Lucy: It sounds like Tony definitely supported you on your way on your career path. Do you have other role models or mentors or other people who influenced you? Laura: I was carried by this net, literally my network. When I first did my angel pitch, there were a few people I knew in the investment community who charitably dialed in to hear it and asked me leading questions to help me understand what I was missing. One of them was Christine Herron, who at the time was with First Round Capital and now is with Intel Capital. She literally had to ask me in my first angel pitch, "Laura, where's the pricing coming from?" And I didn't even know what the word "pricing" meant at that point. [laughter] I was that naive. I tried to answer it. Later another person-again, these were friends because of social networking-Dave McClure was kind enough to take the time to listen to the recording. He asked, "Do you know what Christine was trying to tell you, Laura?" I said candidly, "No." And he explained it to me. So I was carried by this huge network of cheerleaders and supporters and mentors. One of the weird, kind of, "rags-to-riches, Cinderella" aspects of all of this is, I was so completely unknown, and then a year later I was in a book by Seth Godin and I was being mentored by Seth and by Guy Kawasaki and by people whose blogs I'd been reading for a long time and looking up to. And it actually took awhile to come to terms with accepting that. Like I felt guilty. I felt like, why am I getting all this time from all these busy people, there's nothing that special about me, I'm just sort of whatever. And then the way I came to peace with how incredibly generous the world was being with all of this was just like, OK, maybe they see a chance to get something done in the world by helping me get it done. So my responsibility to pay back the debt of all this mentorship is not only to do mentoring when I finally have bandwidth to do it, but to follow through and to make sure I realize the riches I've been given and try to create something with it. So that's been incredibly powerful to keep me going. Lucy: Well, and you know this interview is part of a give back. We have had a lot of people listen to these interviews, we have a social networking campaign with Twitter right now, on this interview series, so we really thank you for being with us and giving some of that advice back. Laura: Thanks. Larry: Well you know with all of the neat things you've done, Laura, what is the toughest thing that you've ever had to do in your career? Laura: That is such a great question. I was going to say that, the days after you run into a wall, because make no illusion, you run into a wall time, time and time again when the start-up [inaudible 11:46] , you fail all the time. Investors flake, co-founders drop out, people you hired don't work out, whatever. It's constantly running into a wall. And the next moment where you have to pick yourself up and dust yourself off, is really painful, it's hard. And just staying calm and.. and one lesson I've learned? Being radically nice to everybody, even if they kind of screwed you over. Because it preserves the relationship and you never know where that relationship leads in the future. That said, I'm very lucky, in that the energy just kept surging back to get through those times. I can't even take ownership of that, it was like being a lightning rod. I would give up, I would go to sleep like, "OK it didn't work, tomorrow I'll figure out something else," and I'd wake up still hell-bent on making it happen. So I was lucky. Lucy: Wow, it's great advice to be radically nice to people, even if you think they screwed you over. [laughs] I mean, it's powerful advice and I think it's advice that you might give to any young person who was thinking about being an entrepreneur. Do you have any other advice that you might tell a young person if they were on this call right now or listening to this interview? Laura: I think it's really important to not discount the most trite, childhood, what-your-mother-tells-you of all, is really be yourself. People told me that. I really struggled growing up, I was not socially well adapted, I was very emotional and kind of out of touch with my colleagues, like had a hard time in elementary school. And everyone was like, "oh just be yourself!" and I'm like "yeah, right." You know, "everybody hates me, I can't be myself." But it is so true that the more I was able to connect with "OK, that is what makes me tick, I'm just going to go with it." I mean, I never set out to think, "I'm going to rave about Twitter for a year and a half and someday it's going to be my job to do that." I just couldn't contain my excitement. So things worked out really well for me. I was very lucky. Larry: You know, with all the things that you've been through, in your childhood, preschool and everything else, what are the personal characteristics that really give you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Laura: Definitely resilience. Some of the greatest gifts that I've been given in life were times that frankly sucked. I won't trot them all out, but... a couple tough things here and there. A couple really scary things that ended really well, like a premature baby and a very minor stroke, and things like that. But those are huge gifts and I don't think people see them in the moment when they're first happening. Again, I want to fall back to the trite, "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger," but there is huge, huge, huge silver lining in every negative thing that happens to you. Even if it's just making up a story in your head like "hey, that felt really terrible but I actually just dodged a bullet, because it could have been this," and I look back at the tough times and I am so grateful for every single one of them. I'm sad for the places where something terrible happened and it made other people sad, but I'm so grateful for how much strength they gave me and how much ability to bounce back and how much calm they gave me. I would not give up a single one of them. Lucy: That's just wonderful advice. That's so true of life in general, right? Being able to learn from tough times. Laura: Yeah. Lucy: And really integrate that into how you're looking at situations. Laura: I really do just straight-up cherish some of them. Lucy: Yeah, I think personally I had some in my corporate career that ultimately led to me coming here and doing what we're doing now with MC Wit, and it's just kind of interesting when you look back and thing "gosh, if that hadn't happened I wouldn't be here." Larry: Yep. You bet. Laura: Right! Lucy: It's totally the case. Laura: You know one of the more bizarre things I did was when I was about 26 or 27 I kind of more or less adopted one of my nieces. Who was, you know, "go and live with your aunt for the fun of it," right? So she had a couple things. And my mom was so, like, almost mad at me. She thought I was crazy to do it. But it was huge, I got so much more out of that experience than I put into it. A lot of growing up, a lot of taking responsibility, a lot of learning about how radically permanent love for a child is, because she really was functionally my daughter for three years, when she was 15, 16 and 17. And I remember thinking, "oh how hard can it be?" And wow, it was really hard. You know, being a teenager is tough, and being a teenager who's had a crappy run-in up to there was tough, too. But it took me out of my shell, it made me connect to people in new ways, my career catapulted because I had to get my act together. And I just love her so much, it was just incredible, it taught me a lot. Lucy: Well and that kind of gets to our next question we were talking some about, sometimes people say "oh, you should have balance between your work and your personal life," and how do you bring balance. We've talked to people about it really being an integration, and we're just curious to get your point of view on this issue of work- life balance and how you achieve it? Laura: It's tough and I don't think I'm super good at it. Yeah, not enough. I try to be really present with my kids when I'm not working. I would really love to bike commute more often, because it's about a nine mile, very flat, ride, very easy, takes the same amount of time the train does but forces me to exercise. And I think that's really important in managing the stress. Again, in a twisted way, I'm lucky that I'm divorced, because my ex is a fantastic dad, and he and his fiance are a great family for my girls in the 50 percent of the time I don't have them. I use that 50 percent of the time I don't have them to do all the extremes like, stay up late and work, or travel, or the different things you have to do to do a start-up. And I think that it would be tough if it was an intact marriage, and I didn't have that really clear-cut line of "OK, you are not a mommy right now." Yeah, of course I call them and stuff like that. But I'm not functionally needing to be there for them. And being more present when I am there with them. Larry: My goodness, I must say that you have really done a great deal, you've achieved a lot. What's next for you? What's on the horizon? Larry: You know, I don't think you ever feel like you've achieved a lot. I always feel just like, "oh crap, what's next? Oh my god, we've got to surmount this, we've got to surmount that." It's not like our company's profitable. It's not like we have a billion users. And I think if you asked everybody along wherever they are in the entrepreneurial process, they'd probably talk a lot more about what's yet to come than about what they feel they've achieved. So there's a ton of professional development I want to do, a lot of skills I want to improve upon and learn. I have this little fantasy about joining a team in the future where I'm a relatively junior part and I can really stretch and grow and learn from others who are just the best at what they do. I still don't have very much management experience, I never had an employee before oneforty.com, and so that means it's been really tough for me and for my employees to learn how to manage on the fly, learn all about software on the fly, learn all about business on the fly. And I just feel like I have so much more growing to do. Lucy: Well we have no doubt that oneforty.com is headed towards great success. Laura: Thank you very much. Lucy: We really do thank you and wish you the best of luck. So I want to remind listeners that they can find us at w3w3.com and also mcwit.org and to tell their friends this is a great interview, and to go visit oneforty.com and learn more about how to use Twitter. I know Larry's going there! Larry: I'm going to oneforty.com . Lucy: I saw him underline "Twitter for Dummies." [laughter] Laura: It's tough, right, I can't really give out my book as a gift because it's a bit insulting, isn't it? Thank you so much for the opportunity, such a salute out to, it shouldn't matter, but to the women in technology who are my heroes. Because it is inspiring to see, you know, Padmasree Warrior as the CEO of Cisco, Kara Swisher just tearing it up in tech journalism, Katarina [inaudible 19:01] , one of the first social media founders of a company. Rash [inaudible 19:12] is running slideshare.net, Marissa Meyer who's done phenomenal things at Google. It shouldn't matter whether, you know, I'm inspired by lots of men, too, but it really does mean a lot and I'm just so grateful for all of them and their work. Lucy: Well thank you, and I know people are really going to enjoy this interview. Larry: Yeah, thank you. Laura: Thank you. Lucy: All right, bye Laura. Laura: Take care, bye bye. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Laura FittonInterview Summary: Once upon a time known as "Queen" of Twitter, Twitter's own mom-at-home to tech CEO Cinderella Story is CEO/Founder of www.oneforty.com and co-author of Twitter for Dummies. You can read her story in the Boston Globe, on Xconomy.com or watch her Mixergy interview. Release Date: April 25, 2011Interview Subject: Laura FrittonInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 20:12

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Cathy Edwards CTO and Co-founder, Chomp Date: April 11, 2011 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes: Interview with Cathy Edwards [music] Lucy Sanders: Hi. This is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of NCWIT, the National Center for Women in Information Technology and we have today another great interview with a wonderful entrepreneur. I'm very eager for this interview because not only is she a co-founder of a technical company but she's also the Chief Technology Officer. I think our listeners understand how much we at NCWIT care about technical women. Very eager to get to this interview. With me is Larry Nelson from W3W3. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi. I'm happy to be here, of course. You know one of the interesting things is that we've found over this past few years now is that we have many different people that listen to these shows, business leaders and parents as well as many younger girls who are looking into technology. Lucy: Well, they're definitely going to be interested in listening to this interview with Cathy Edwards. As I mentioned before she's the CTO and co-founder. It's at Chomp, which is a great company. I went and looked at it again today. I just love it. It's a search engine for mobile applications, which if you're like me it's pretty difficult to find all the applications that you can have on your mobile device today. Cathy created Chomp's proprietary algorithm that understands the function of each app so you actually get to search for applications, not just on what they are called but what they do. For example you can search for puzzles, you can search for games, I was searching for gardening, and search for fitness, et cetera. It's a great site. It's a great company. Cathy we're really happy to have you here. Welcome. Cathy: Thank you. I'm really really pleased to be on the line. Lucy: So what's going on with Chomp? Tell us all the latest news. I know that you launched in January of 2010 with a platform for the iPhone and just recently for Android. Give us the latest. Cathy: Yeah. Things are going really really well and the app market, as I'm sure everyone is aware, is really taking off right now. It's kind of interesting. If you look at the stats, the rate at which apps are growing both in terms of the number of apps available and the rate of adoption is very, very similar to the early days of the web. This is really looking like being something that's going to be very very big. And of course as it gets really big people are going to need ways to find those apps, just like maybe in the early days you browsed around Yahoo's directory of websites and saw all the gardening websites on the Internet in one place. After a little while it just becomes too many. You need to start searching for them. We think the same thing's going to happen with apps. Lucy: I think that's absolutely true and I have to say this factoid. My husband has an early Yellow Pages of every web site on the Internet. [laughter] Cathy: That is priceless. That's fantastic. You should hang on to that. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: I know. It's one of our family heirlooms. Cathy: [laughs] Lucy: So I mentioned that Cathy's a CTO and she also has a great technical background. She has worked in industry at Friendster and Telstra working in areas of research related to natural learning and language processing. Cathy, why don't you tell us, based on your technical background, how you first got interested in technology. Cathy: Yeah. I was actually extremely lucky. I'm really grateful that I had these experiences when I was young. I was lucky enough to go to two separate primary schools that both really had a lot of opportunities to actually begin programming. I remember doing my first programming when I was quite young using a program called Logo where you could basically draw pictures, program a little turtle around the screen and draw pictures. I just loved it from day one. Really there was no distinction about "Oh, you're a girl so you can't program." I was really encouraged to get into it. Everything just really grew from there. I continued doing programming throughout high school and did Computer Science as one of my majors at University. I've always kind of been technical the whole way through, but I really do think that it was because I was given some of these opportunities when I was young that I really got into it like I did. Lucy: That's one of the things I'd say we're trying to do here, you know? Larry: Mm-hmm. Lucy: To get girls interested. Larry: That's right. Cathy: Yeah. I just think it's so important, and particularly in contexts that they can really connect with. When I was about 12 years old, I did this competition with the Lego Mindstorms robots, which was this, you had to program this robot to pick up an egg and take it from one side of a track to another. Things like that, particularly when you've got robots and it's fun and you're with your friends, it takes it away from being a nerdy, geeky dungeon thing, if that makes sense. Larry: [laughs] Lucy: Well, based on your technology background, we also like to ask people we interview what's your view of the future of technology? What do you think is going to be particularly interesting, perhaps even over and above what you're doing at Chomp? Cathy: Yeah, well I was going to say it's pretty obvious that apps are going to be a pretty big thing. But I think in general, this kind of post-PC world that we're moving into, computing moving away from a single device that sits on a desktop and into every little object, computing becomes a part of everything that we do. Now we have running shoes that can track how far we've run or a wine rack in our house that can track our inventory of wine. To me, that is a really really interesting future to contemplate. Larry: Mm-hmm. Lucy: Ubiquitous computing. Larry: You betcha. Lucy, you mentioned when you went to Chomp.com that one of the things you looked up was gardening. Lucy: Mm-hmm. Larry: Now I understand why you carried in a shovel to your office this morning. [laughter] Larry: Anyhow... Lucy: No way. [laughter] Larry: Cathy, this is either a tough or an easy question. Why is it you are an entrepreneur? What is it about entrepreneurship today that makes you tick? Cathy: I feel really really privileged to do what it is that I do. I love getting up and going to work each morning. I really think that very few people in the world are in a position where they can genuinely say, "I spend a lot of time working and I love every minute of it." To me being an entrepreneur is about really two things. The first is about creating and building really amazing products. The things that people use and that people love. It's almost like, I don't know, being a carpenter and building a table or something. There's this kind of tangible "I built that" feeling that goes along with being an entrepreneur that maybe you don't get at a bigger company. Then the second piece is about creating and building an amazing team of people and I really love working with people. I have the most amazing team at Chomp. It's just that process of bringing people together for a higher purpose to build this thing. It's really an amazing feeling. Lucy: It's very creative. Larry: Yes. Lucy: Just a very creative process. Along that path of becoming an entrepreneur, who particularly influenced or supported you? Cathy: My parents have just been amazing my entire life. They've been very supportive of my career. They're actually both entrepreneurs, although they're back in Australia and they do entirely different things from what it is that I do. But all through my life I have grown up around this idea of entrepreneurship, and being involved with the family business and just this idea of making stuff happen on your own. I really think it was their influence that has helped me get to where I am today. Lucy: Well,you know, you see them taking notes, risks, and creating something from nothing. That's got to be a very valuable childhood experience. Larry: Yes Cathy: Absolutely Larry: For sure, Now Cathy, just as a little sidebar here. My family and I lived in Australia for three years. Met an amazing number of people there. I just wanted to say welcome. Cathy: Oh, thank you. I love it over here. The start up community is really growing, in Australia. And it's really exciting to see what's coming out of there. But definitely exciting to be in a much more established start up community, here in silicone valley. Larry: All right now, with all the things you have done and the support you have had, and the amazing team that you have been able to put together, what is the toughest thing that you have had to do in your career? Cathy: I actually think that that comes back to managing people again, and the pain. I think learning to manage and lead people effectively, is an extremely difficult thing to do. I think it's actually particularly difficult thing for young intelligent people, who are really used to being in control of what they are achieving, and doing everything themselves. I definitely made a lot of management mistakes, when I first started managing people. Learning to overcome that end, to be good at building a team, is something that I had to focus on. Obviously I still focus on it today. There's obviously a long way to go there. That is probably the toughest thing I had to do. Lucy: Wow, I think there is some hidden advice around what you said, about building great teams, as being necessary in entrepreneurship. What other advice would you give a young person about becoming an entrepreneur, if they were on the phone with us today. Cathy: This is actually a really difficult thing to do, but I think if at all possible, please try and find one person that you can trust to start a business with. My co-founder, Ben Kieghran, has been the most amazing partner, as we have gone through this kind of wild, crazy startup ride together. It definitely has made a big difference, just to have somebody that you can talk through problems with, somebody that you can trust and brainstorm with, and somebody you can have a little freakout to when it all gets a little too much. Not doing it alone I think is very important. Lucy: That's what they do down under. They have a little freakout. Larry: I think I remember those, yes. Lucy: I didn't know what to call them, but now I have words for them. Larry: Now, with everything you've been through, the things that you've been developing, and knowing where your going to grow. What personal characteristics do you have that give you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Cathy: I think I have this interesting combination of extreme impatience on the one hand, but also focus on the other hand. That means I have this bias towards getting things done, I just want to make progress, make progress, get things done. Execution is just so important when your an entrepreneur, that first few months when you just got ideas, and you're out networking, and there's so many things you could do just starting a company. That just like coming back to, "What am I building? Is there evidence that people actually like this?" All of that is just so critically important, that I think that kind of impatience helps me get through that Larry: I love it. Lucy: Yeah, really. Turning to a slightly different topic for a moment, being an entrepreneur is, of course, hard work, all the time seven by twenty four, yet we all are people and have our personal lives as well. How do you either balance or integrate the two. How does that work for you? Cathy: This is a really difficult question, obviously. I think it's something everybody struggles with. My take on it is, work life balance is something that is measured more on a span of years, more then a span of kind of weeks or months. Paul Graham actually has this really great essay where he talks about how economically you can really think of a startup as a way to compress your whole working life into like kind of five years. I feel in that context there's really no way to work a forty-hour week, and go to yoga every night. Really I see that this is the time in my life where I'm really dedicated on the work side of things, but I also expect there will be other times in my life where I will be more dedicated on the family side of things. Having said that, my New Years resolution was not to work a six-day work week every week. I'm working hard on that at the moment. Lucy: I had that resolution, too, and I haven't done it. Cathy: Very difficult Larry: It is tough. When we lived in Australia, we would escape every now and then to Mullewa, and that was a great escape. Cathy: Lovely, I've never actually been there, but I've heard wonderful things. Larry: Oh yeah. Now you know you've already achieved a great deal. You started out working with your programs of iPods, and just recently launched for the Android. Are there other things that you plan on doing. Cathy: We are really just very focused on building the best possible search experience for apps, and app search and web search are really quite different. This is a really difficult problem that hasn't been solved yet. We expect it's going to take us awhile to really get that to be amazing, so that's just what we are working hard on right now. Lucy: Although this question isn't on our official list I just now have to ask it for sure. Based on what you found out so far, with your search for apps, are there any missing areas, where we could all go write apps and get really, really rich. Cathy: You know, everybody asks me that. Well actually we produce an app search analytics support each month. That goes through what people are searching for and that sort of thing. I believe that we are planning on focusing on unfilled areas of app interest in one of those reports in the future. I don't have an answer for you right now, but stay tuned. Larry: I will Lucy: I will, we can write apps, to fund NCWIT. Larry: There you go, I like it. Lucy: Wow, Cathy, Thanks so much for joining us we really enjoyed talking to you. I want to remind listeners that they can find this at w3w3.com, and also ncwith.org. Larry: We'll put up chomp.com on the website also. Lucy: Well, Thank you Cathy. Larry: Thank You. Cathy: Thank you very much. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Cathy EdwardsInterview Summary: Cathy Edwards is the CTO and co-founder at Chomp, a search engine for mobile apps. She created Chomp's proprietary algorithm that understands the function of each app, allowing you to search for apps based on what they do rather than just what they're called. Release Date: April 11, 2011Interview Subject: Cathy EdwardsInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 14:39

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Sarah Allen CTO, Mightyverse Date: January 14, 2011 Interview with Sarah Allen [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of NCWIT, the National Center for Women in Information Technology. This is the next in a series of just great interviews with entrepreneurs who have started some really interesting companies and our interviewee today is no exception. With me is Larry Nelson from W3W3. Hi Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi, I'm happy to be here. This is an exciting series. Lucy: What's going on with W3W3? Larry: Well, we're interviewing all kinds of interesting people. Now, we don't interview only women, just so you know. Lucy: Oh, OK. Larry: Our interview not too long ago with Leonard Nimoy was fantastic. Lee Kennedy: You're such a bragger. [laughs] Larry: Yes. I couldn't help it. Lucy: Also with me is Lee Kennedy, who is a director of NCWIT and also a serial entrepreneur. Her latest company is Boulder Search. Welcome Lee. Lee: Thanks Lucy, always great to be here. Lucy: Today we're interesting a really busy, interesting person, Sarah Allen. She's currently the CTO and co-founder of Mightyverse. I went and played around at Mightyverse and you just must go. All the listeners must go to Mightyverse and play with it. I don't know, Sarah, if that's the right thing to say, play with it, or not, but I had great fun looking for languages and thinking about phrases. Basically what you've created at Mightyverse what you're calling a language marketplace. And you just don't see a pronunciation or hear a pronunciation, but you see people's faces actually saying it. It looks good on your mobile device. You can be anywhere and go figure out how the heck to say something. Sarah is primarily self-funding this company through some independent consulting work. And one other thing before we get to the interview, I wanted to say especially to our listeners who follow NCWIT and what we do, Sarah has started RailsBridge which is providing free workshops teaching Ruby on Rails aimed at women. Thank you for doing that Sarah and welcome. Sarah Allen: I'm very happy to be here. Lucy: Before we start, why don't you tell us a little bit about Mightyverse, over and above what I said, as a way of introduction? Sarah: Well, I think that it's fine to say that you played with it. I feel like playing is the best way to learn. We definitely want to create an engaging way to learn how to speak languages. And I'm really excited that we just released a collection of Hebrew phrases on the iPhone. So if you have an iPhone or an iPad you can go to the store and for 99 cents get a collection of Hebrew phrases. And we're really in a phase where we're market testing the mobile angle of Mightyverse. So you can see the full collection on the web but we're releasing a series of collections to get feedback from people about the mobile experience. Lucy: Well, people in the Bay area, I think you can show up and record your phrases and maybe even get a free lunch from Sarah? [laughter] Sarah: Absolutely. If anybody wants to come and record a phrase in their native language we'd be delighted to have you as our guest. Lucy: Sarah, you are quite a technologist, obviously you're a chief technology officer. But prior to your work at Mightyverse, you've worked in Shockwave and Flash and you were named one of the top 25 women on the web in 1998. So a very amazing technology career. How did you first get into technology? Sarah: Well, I started programming in Basic on an Apple II, back in the day when your computer would arrive with a manual that taught you Basic. I really taught myself from a book that shipped with the Apple at that day. And I got into it because my mom went into selling computers after being laid off from teaching in the public schools in the Boston area. And so, she brought an Apple II home and I taught myself. Larry: Wow. Lucy: Basic, I learned Basic in my high school math class. Lee: That's amazing. Had you done other kind of techie things before you jumped into that? Sarah: I think that that was the first really technical thing that I had done. I didn't see a big division between technical things and non- technical things. My dad had a philosophy where he would always teach both my brother and me everything that he did. He did handy stuff around the house and fixed cars. He taught us both math and different things. So I didn't really see that the computer was a really technical thing. I thought that building physical circuits was really technical and I thought that fixing cars was really technical. But I thought that it was just a toy. Lee: Yeah. Sarah: I knew it was a serious thing for my mom and for other people. I approached it as like this adventure, like "Oh, let's play with this thing." Lucy: Certainly from your position as a CTO, you're always assessing technologies and listeners are always curious to know which ones you see as being the most exciting. Sarah: Well, I think right now mobile is super exciting. But what's most exciting about mobile is the fact that we now have these huge data storage that we can access. We have cloud computing so that it's really easy to deploy services and to access data stores. We're starting to see a lot of easily interconnected web services. I think we're finally approaching what Tim Berners-Lee meant by the semantic web, this notion of having these services on the web that you can connect to and machines can connect to and make sense of. So, we're starting to be able to assemble fairly complex systems without building every piece ourselves. I think that's really exciting. Lucy: So it's clear how you got into technology. How did you get into being an entrepreneur? Sarah: Well I feel like I kind of stumbled into entrepreneurship because all through college I was a teaching assistant at this one class. And these two guys who TA'd with me and then we were head TAs. And we did a number of projects together, coding together. And they both hooked up with another friend of theirs and they decided to start a company. So this happened about six months before I graduated because I graduated in the middle of the year. So I did as like "Well, my friends are starting this company. I'll work there for the summer." And kind of fell into it because I got wrapped up in what we were doing and ended up really being a co-founder of that company. And that was CoSA, which was a company that created After Effects, which is now sold by Adobe. That really gave me the feel for what it meant to be involved in a startup company which otherwise I don't think I really would have understood how exciting that is and why I would have wanted to do it. Lucy: Tell us what it is about being an entrepreneur that you love so much. Sarah: Well, I really love creating things that don't exist and solving problems that either people don't see or they don't realize can be solved by today's technology. I think that's really exciting. The thing that convinced me to actually be a software developer, because I graduated from college... I graduated with a CS degree. But I didn't think I was going to be a software developer because I thought it was straightforward. I thought it was like doing crossword puzzles or Rubik's cubes. It's entertaining. But I didn't really take it seriously. I didn't see when I was in college the power of computing and how it can be applied to real world problems because everything seemed really obvious to me. So I figured anybody could do it. And then when I was working at CoSA, CoSA actually was a very small company. We also kept up tech support. And I remember somebody who was calling to ask me about a question who had bought our software said "I didn't think computers could do this." And I realized that I had a unique perspective that I never recognized before. Because of my experience, because of my skills, because of my unique world view, I can see things that I'm not the only person who sees. But the majority of the world doesn't and that's a real opportunity for me. That's kind of exciting. Larry: Boy, I'll say. Well you mentioned your parents. It was really neat how they had a way of helping steer you somewhat. But I want to talk about your career. Who are some of the people along the way that have supported your career, whether they be mentors or role models or whatever? Sarah: Early in my career I really struggled with not seeing women role models. That was really important to me. I felt a little isolated. I was often the only woman on my team. I did find men who were great role models. Harry Chesley, who created the Shockwave team and hired me at Macromedia, was the person I learned about the Internet from. He was the first person who I ever heard say that he wanted to work on open source. I asked him what he would want to do if he made it rich and could retire early and he said he would want to write software for free. And I thought that was really bizarre and now I understand what that means. Lucy: Yeah. Sarah: And my friend David Simons who I started CoSA with who still works on After Effects at Adobe. He's really always inspired me because he stays true to himself. He always respected me. And he always saw, I think even before I saw things in myself he saw them in me, in terms of what I could do. Our collaboration showed me how we could work together. And those kinds of relationships were really inspiring. It may sound clich�, but my husband has been incredibly supportive, I think another person who will see in me things before I recognize them myself. Having his support in picking through these career choices is super, super important. But after a while I started to get frustrated that I didn't have women ahead of me. I started to feel that maybe I didn't belong. Maybe this wasn't the career for me. Were some of the things happening that I didn't like because of my gender? I didn't know and I felt uncertain about that. I actually read this book about the 50 Nobel prize winners in math and science who are women. And I read an essay about Emmy Noether, who is a German mathematician who was actually the first woman to be paid to be a professor in Germany. But before that she did math because she loved doing math and she lectured under somebody else's name because she was so thrilled with the opportunity to talk to people about her ideas about math. She helped Einstein lay the mathematical foundation for his theories of relativity. Lucy: Wow. Sarah: She was just very excited to work with people who had respect for her so it didn't matter that she didn't get paid for it, that the rest of the world didn't acknowledge it because in her small circle, they all knew that Emmy was the person to go to when you had a math question. Then I looked around me and I saw that, OK, I have this group of guys who all respect me and we build great software. I was working on Flash video at the time, working with an amazing team. And I just felt like "Well, this is what I love to do. Forget all of that nonsense. I'm just going to follow what I love and the rest will take care of itself." Lucy: Well, that's a great story. I think, too, some of the work you're doing with Ruby on Rails giving women the confidence and skill set to get out there and to start contributing in a space is really going to also add role models. Sarah: It is my hope. Lucy: And thank you for doing that. So, we are going to turn now, away from technology and mentoring into sort of the dark side of the career. [laughs] And asking about the toughest thing you ever had to do so far in your career. Sarah: This is actually the hardest question. I am thinking about this interview. There isn't one thing. The hardest thing is really making decisions like the hardest thing for me, it may sound a little tried, is just making priorities, making decisions. I used to feel that they were right answers, and that if there were some negative consequence to a decision I made that then I have made the wrong answer. And what I come to realize is that every decision comes with risks and if am deciding am I going to do A or B or C, each thing has potentially negative consequences. And to make a decision with your eyes open and to say "OK I am going to do this and there might be some fallout and I might do it anyhow." I feel like I make those decisions 20 times a day running a company. I make new significant technical decisions for my neighbors who make strategic decisions, who make those life decisions. Should I be spending this much time on my career instead of my family? It's not really that kind of either/or but all the little decisions add up and they have consequences both good and bad. So, I think that's the hardest thing. Lucy : Well and sometimes, too, I think. You think if you don't do anything. There is no risk with doing nothing and not making decision, whereas in fact, right? Larry: Yeah. Sarah: That's the biggest risk. Lucy: That's the biggest risk of all. Sarah: I mean I think that, I probably instead of the most wide spread computer software that I've ever developed was Shockwaves where I wrote... Even though there were only four engineers in the project. I wrote a significant amount of code. I was involved with many, many releases of it. I don't think I got any real risk in developing that. I never did anything that I wasn't sure what's going to work. I really like the civilization in the late 90s. I have never really taken real risks in my career, and so later I started to try to take risks. I was able to do much more impressive things because they didn't know it worked the first time. But if you make a decision, you try to do something knowing that it might not work and litigate that. You can lay a path. You can set expectations that you are experimenting and then you are able to do things that are much more clear. Lucy: And that brings us to the next question when you think back about all the things you have done in your career, whether it's working with technologies, making decisions or what to do. If you are kind of sum it all that and give advice to somebody that's looking to get in to being an entrepreneur, what advice would you give them? Sarah: I have couple of pieces of advices. The number one piece of advice is to pick the people you work with first, it's more important than the project, the technology anything else. It's that you are working with great people that you respect for, that you can learn from, that they have respect for you and that you are going to have a great working environment. When I went to college, I would say pick your college class by the professor not by the subject. I feel that's completely true for your working environment. So if you think it's an amazing job but you are not sure about the people or an "OK" job with amazing people, take the OK job with amazing people because the amazing people will turn it into an amazing job. It's more likely your project is going to change than the people change. So, that's the first thing which I think is really important Lucy: And that's great advice. Larry: Yeah, you got it. Lucy: Very true. Sarah: The second thing is to really find your passion. Find the things that makes you tick, find the things that you love. What is the thing that you can do just forever and never get bored of? And that's what you should be doing. It can be very, as a young person, I didn't know what that was. But when I found it and I didn't recognize that when I found it that I kept following it. What's this thing that I am into? I would pick things. It felt like I was making career choices on a lark. But I would just follow my gut instinct about this. This feel is exciting to me and then in retrospect, I could see a pattern, but it was seven or eight years before I saw a pattern. But I was following what is it that drives me? What is that excites me and that lead me to where I am today. Larry: Very good, great advice. What are your personal characteristics that have given you the advantage of being the entrepreneur? Sarah: It's kind of a hard question because I feel like I'm such a different person than I was when I started being an entrepreneur and I feel that the things that made me successful now, they feel like there are very different things that made me successful then. But I think the common thread that runs through it is that it's creative work. At least this is my angle at it. In college, I got two degrees. One in computer science and the other in visual arts. I am at studio art. There are two things that I learned. One was in being creative, sometimes that blank canvass if you want enemy. You need edit the paper. You need to pour your creativity into and creativity is work, like creating that structure for yourself. Creating the path, getting yourself into the creative mindset is working at a discipline. The other thing is being able to receive and give in an affective critique. One of the things that you learned in Art 101 or whatever they called it is we did lots of drawings. Everybody would put their art in the wall and you were supposed to critique it. I would come and I would look at a drawing. It would be like Oh, my God. I can't believe that person just turn that in. [laughter] Sarah: And if you would say, the composition of the little jumbo but this quality of line really speaks to me. I like the gracefulness of that line and I learned to pick out the parts of a drawing that were really wonderful and disregard the thing that didn't turn out OK. And that made me not only be able to communicate more effectively but more importantly, see things that I otherwise wouldn't see. I think those skills lead me to be able to interact with people and hone my own skills in a way that to give me an advantage of an entrepreneur. Lucy: I think that's great. Was that your picture that she said about Larry? Larry: Maybe. Lucy: Maybe just a little? Sarah: I would never say. Lucy: No, never say. Larry: Thank you. Thank you. Lucy: No, never say but I just thought that was wonderful. Just to say it. Now, Sarah, you mentioned in your earlier question around decision making about is it the right time for me to be spending this time away from my family and working so much in my career? And so, get us to our next question about bringing balance to your personal and professional lives. Any advice you would like to give the listeners about that? Sarah: First off, I'm probably the worst person to give advice about work right now. Lucy: Go ahead. Yeah? Sarah: I do have a family. I love my family. I wish I could spend more time with them which is ironic because it obviously not a big enough wish to overcome my drive to do other things in my life. And so, in that way you have to have some kind of balance. You have to figure out how you are going to make peace with all of these things that you want in your life. I was very influenced by a woman. I don't know her name who gave a talk at Grace Hopper Celebration of Women Computing. I think it is 1997. Right around that time, I was either pregnant or about to be and it was that talk about having children and having a technical career in. For the first time I heard somebody who actually said that she thought that having a career in technology was an advantage for being a mother. I was expecting to hear all about compromise. But she said it was an advantage and she went through a lot of ways that it really helped her relation with her son. And, what she said was, "You can have it all, just not all at once." Lucy: That's a good way to put it. Sarah: That's what I try to do at my best. That when I am home with my family, I am there with them. Like I'm most successful when I can make time to do what I am doing and really do it fully and then decide that "OK, this is time I am not going to spend with my family. I'm going to spend it on other thing and really spend it at that. If you can do that successfully then I think you can have really great balance. But it is really challenging. But it is incredibly rewarding when it does work. Lucy: Sarah, we've really enjoyed talking to you. Just feels like you've got this Zen about you. So, tell us what's next for you? Sarah: Well, a lot of things. I am really excited about RailsBridge becoming self sustaining. I read a great book "The Starfish and The Spider." Its subtitle is the "Unstoppable Power of Leaderless Organizations" I'm taking a bunch of lesson on that book in trying to create, help create or empower this group of volunteers and create structure around it so that it can just... The workshops can be self sustaining and don't need me as a leader. Or don't need any leader and they can just work by themselves. It's really exciting that's starting to happen. Also, I'm working to have my consulting company with this grown up around me. It started with just a way to fund my product development ideas but that also started to become a self sustaining company. And then, that will really liberate me to focus on my neighbors. I am really excited to spend more time writing code, spend time figuring out the hard problems around language or even better yet, figuring out the easy problems that are going to be most rewarding first. It's such a vast problem space but there are also so many things that don't require a lot of technology. I am excited about a problem which is as much a human problem as it is a problem for technology. Larry: Excellent. Lucy: Well, we are going to stay tuned, that's for sure. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: Well, thanks very much Sarah. It was great talking to you. I want to remind listeners where they can find these interviews at w3w3w3.com and ncwit.org. Larry: We are really looking forward to it. We are going to follow you, Sarah. Sarah: Great, you can follow me on Twitter at my hacker identity. It's all sorts.com. Like the dinosaur. Lee: OK. Cool. We will be there. Lucy: Thank you so much. Sarah: All right. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Sarah AllenInterview Summary: Sarah Allen is a serial innovator with a history of developing leading-edge products, such as After Effects, Shockwave, Flash video, and OpenLaszlo. She has a habit of recognizing great and timely ideas, finding talented teams, and creating compelling software. Release Date: January 14, 2011Interview Subject: Sarah AllenInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 23:55

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Diane Greene Founder, VMware Date: January 31, 2011 Interview with Diane Greene [introduction music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders the CEO of the National Center for Women in Information Technology or NCWIT. With me is Leigh Kennedy, one of our fine board members as well as a serial entrepreneur herself. Hi Leigh. Leigh Kennedy: Hi Lucy, thanks for having me today. Lucy: Also Larry Nelson from W3W3. Hi Larry. Larry Nelson. I'm so happy to be here. This is a wonderful series and what we really like about it, it really helps other people. Lucy: Absolutely, we have great interviews in this series with wonderful entrepreneurs. We are now over 50 interviews in our series and I felt very excited about that. Leigh: Wow. Lucy: Today we are interviewing a person who I consider to be one of the top entrepreneurs I know, co-founder and founding CEO of VMWare, Diane Greene. VMWare is one of those companies I know many of our listeners have heard about because it introduced something really, really innovative, which was a virtualization layer between hardware and software that allows different operating systems to run on the same machine. That was pretty cool and that was one of VMWare's really innovative leads into the market, truly revolutionary. When the company went public in 2007, it was Silicon Valley's biggest IPO since Google, no small accomplishment. So we can't wait to talk to Diane. She left VMWare in 2008, but she continues to invest in companies and to advise entrepreneurs and she serves on very impressive boards, such as Intuit, MIT Corporation and more. Diane, welcome. Diane Greene: Well, thanks very much. It's always good to participate in the entrepreneurial community in any way I can. Lucy: So let's get right to the questions, Diane. We're really interested in understanding how you first got into technology. As you look at the technologies out there today, which ones do you think are especially cool? Diane: Well I've always had an orientation around science and engineering. In high school I built a model bridge with movable trusses and instrumented one of them with a strange gauge. That really launched me into what I found out was called engineering. I was also really active racing sailboats, which meant maintaining them and tuning them which was a lot of technology to keep the boat going fast in addition to racing it. So I would say I started doing things in technology in high school. Nothing like what the kids are doing today with their computers, but certainly technology. In terms of what is out there today that's really exciting, like everybody else, it's mobile connectivity, the social networking, the sensors, particularly around imaging. All these things contributing to our ability to have a digitally enhanced world is tremendously exciting. Larry: Boy, I'll say. I have a feeling that if I was going to try to recruit a relationship with you that if my company started with the letter V, like in Vermont, I would get a little bit further. Lucy: [laughs] Leigh: I didn't understand it, either. Lucy: I didn't understand it, either, that's OK. Diane: It's possible, because I'm puzzled about what you're talking about. Larry: I was just looking at VMWare, VXtreme. Diane: Oh, V, I thought you said Z. That's right, VMWare, VXtreme, completely coincidental. VMware, we were looking for a name and at the time, during the dot com bubble, every URL was taken. So we said "Let's do a placeholder." I thought "Let's just do something really descriptive as a placeholder, virtual machine software, call it VMware." So the name stuck. Lucy: Well, that's an interesting story. Larry: Yeah. Leigh: Yeah it is. Lucy: Diane, I'm going to jump into the next question. Diane: Our PR person didn't want to talk to us because they thought "What a boring name." [Leigh and Larry laugh] Leigh: I think it's a good name. Larry: Yeah, I like it. Lucy: So Diane, I'll jump in to the next question. We're always curious how people that are really into technology and science and they make the leap to be an entrepreneur, which is not always second nature to a lot of technologists. So tell us about how that happened and what it is about entrepreneurship that you love. Diane: Well I've always also been an organizer. I always have started new things. Very early on when I was actually still in high school back in 1971 I got into windsurfing. I was the only windsurfer on the East coast. I started an ice hockey team in college. So I've always, in addition to having an affinity for technology I also like to organize. I like to do things with other people. I think I'm not particularly good at working for other people if our visions aren't aligned. That kind of pushes me towards leading people and being in charge. I think it's a desire to do new things, organize new things and make new things happen. The technology background is just helpful and is why my entrepreneurship is around technology, I guess. Larry: You've done so many different things. I know you're going to have a great career ahead of you, it's just the beginning. In your career path, who was either a mentor or someone who was a role model that really influenced your future? Diane: Well I have to say my family had an enormous influence on me for better or for worse. Then I had an absolutely amazing band teacher in high school that set up a system for measuring how we were doing which made it extremely clear how to get ahead and how to become first chair and then had us all working together amazingly well as a band and as an orchestra to where our little motley crew would go on and win state championships. I had her as my band and orchestra teacher for three years, and I think she had an enormous influence on me. She could have managed a huge [laughs] corporation. She had all those fundamental principles and skills down. Then as I've gone through my career in Silicon Valley in the tech industry, I would have to say I had a mentor at Tandem Computers named Franco Putzolo, who really taught me how to take a measured approach to whatever it was I was doing and helped develop my ability to try and really take the time to always do things well. Lucy: Well, you know when we started the interview we said we get a lot of interesting answers to these questions, and that's the first time we've heard a band teacher. Diane: [laughter] I've only said this one other time, when I was being interviewed at VMware, and the absolutely amazing thing is I got emails from someone else that had been in her band and orchestra and said, "Yes, she was my mentor, too." Lucy: Well, I think that's fascinating and perfectly understandable when you think about a lot of great technologists are great musicians... Leigh: Exactly, yup. Lucy: ...and I can see where a band and orchestra, lots of life skills there. So fascinating answer. Diane, what is the toughest thing you've ever had to do in your career? Diane: Working for other people that I wasn't able to convince them of my vision. Lucy: That's hard. Diane: That really was [laughs] the most difficult thing. Leigh: Yeah, that's always tough, and I think one of the reasons a lot of entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs is they don't like working for other people, so... [laughs] [laughter] Leigh: ...that makes perfect sense. [laughs] Diane: We can have the same vision, but that's not the norm. I mean normally it's the leader that sets the vision and doesn't necessarily take the vision of...it's also formative because when you are the leader you're very sensitive to the fact that you need to [laughs] incorporate everybody else's vision or they're going to feel frustrated. Also, it's good for the company because you don't always have the right vision yourself. At least I don't. But yeah. I do think it drives a lot of entrepreneurship, is this need to work on a vision that you're really passionate about. So you're left with no [laughs] choice but to do it yourself. Leigh: Well, that brings us to our next question. We have a lot of young people and people wanting to become entrepreneurs that listen to our interviews. So if you were sitting here with a young person looking to become an entrepreneur, what advice would you give to them? Diane: If they have a vision of something, there are infinite ways to improve the world. If you really see something that really excites you, then set about doing it and do it right. Don't cut any corners. Go about it with absolute quality in every way you approach it and think it through and execute on it. Larry: Well, I'm tying right in with that. What are your personal characteristics, do you think, that have given you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Diane: I don't start something unless I can really see for myself how it can be done, how it's possible. Then once I see that, I don't think of failure as an option. There's always a way to make it successful, and I'm pretty relentless about that. I think also I really love and get energized from working with other people [laughs] when they're smarter than me, and that's not always hard. So I think those two things, that relentless "There is a way," and then just enjoying finding that way with other people really has helped me have a lot of successes as an entrepreneur. Lucy: Relentless is a word we hear a lot. Leigh: And failure not being an option. Lucy: And failure not being an option. I think that those are great personal characteristics to have. Diane, we ask one other question around how entrepreneurs...it's not so much bringing balance into your personal and professional lives, but how do you integrate them? Diane: Well, I see it as my life. I do what I care about and what I want to do, and so part of that is my family and raising my family, and part of that is going on outdoor adventures, which I don't do nearly as much as I would like to. Building things I think has been a large part of...it's of course been building companies in the tech industry. But there are fundamental principles about how I go about things that are utterly consistent across everything I do, so that integrates them pretty naturally. Leigh: Diane, you've done some just really, really interesting things that were like leading edge in many areas--sports, technology. Tell us about what you're passionate about now or what's next for you? Diane: I'm really not sure what's next. I'm working on it, and I definitely want a big project in my life. Leigh: Well, that's a great answer, too. [laughs] We don't always know, and it's good to know that you're in that spot. Lucy: Well, when you're in that spot, you can pay attention and actually look for the next big project. Larry: There you go. Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Diane, thanks very much for talking to us. We really appreciate it. I wanted to remind listeners where they can hear this interview, at W3W3.com and also NCWIT.org. Diane: Yeah, and let me just send a word of encouragement to people. I think when you want to do something, you can always do it and make a success of it. Good luck. Larry: Well, thank you for that. Lucy: Thank you, Diane. Leigh: Thanks, Diane. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Diane GreeneInterview Summary: VMware introduced a totally innovative idea: a virtualization layer between hardware and software that allowed different operating systems to run on the same machine. When the company went public in 2007, it was Silicon Valley's biggest IPO since Google. Says founder Diane Greene, "When you need to work on a passion and vision you are sometimes left with no option but to do it yourself. If you see something that really excites you, then set about doing it and doing it right." Release Date: January 31, 2011Interview Subject: Dianne GreeneInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 12:35

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Dr. Marcie Black Co-Founder & Chief Technology Officer, Bandgap Engineering Date: August 23, 2010 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology or NCWIT and with me is Larry Nelson, w3w3.com Internet radio. Larry Nelson: Yes. Lucy: And we are very happy to be doing one in a series of interviews with women who have started IT companies and we love this series because there is so much wisdom with these entrepreneurs that everybody can benefit from. Larry: Yes, it's very exciting and we get a tremendous amount of business leaders, parents, all with different ages of people who tuned in and listen to this and we are very happy because we know that we need a lot of encouragement in this area. Lucy: Absolutely and very excited about today's interview. We are interviewing an entrepreneur who is helping the world solve our energy problems. We all know energy is a very important topic, very hot topic and the person we are interviewing today is a very impressive one. She has very impressive technical credentials with a PhD from MIT and also post doctoral work at Los Alamos laboratory. So, very, very well credentialed to take on the energy problems of the world. So, just to get right to it. We are interviewing Marcie Black who is the CTO and co-founder of Bandgap Engineering. And we are going to let her tell us a little bit about what the company does but in brief, they pioneered the development of highly tunable and inexpensive methods for nano structuring silicone and they are applying that technology to high efficiency solar cells. So, Marcie, first of all welcome and why don't you tell our listeners what this technology is all about. Marcie Black: Lucy and Larry, thank you for having me. It is a pleasure to be here. So, Bandgap Engineering is reducing the cost of solar electricity and the reason why we are doing that is there are a lot of trade-offs in producing electricity and by moving to renewable energy source, we can lessen some of those trade-offs. And solar is the only renewable energy source that has the potential of being or dominant energy supply. So, there's a couple of ways to reduce the price of solar electricity so that it is cost competitive with conventional sources. One of the ways is by reducing the cost of processing the semi conductors. But another way is increasing the efficiency of the solar cell and by increasing efficiency means that you can get more power over the same area of the solar cell. So, what Bandgap Engineering is doing is increasing the efficiency of the solar cell while keeping the cost per area constant. And that effectively will bring down the cost of electricity from solar energy making it cost competitive with other conventional energy sources. And as you mentioned the way that we are increasing the efficiency is by nano engineering silicone so that it's a better converter of energy from optical energy to electrical energy. Lucy: Wow. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: Now, see, I just write softwares. I'm pretty impressed. Larry: No small thing. Lucy: It is very important and it is a young company, isn't it Marcie? Marcie: Yeah, we are about three years old. Lucy: Awesome. So, how did you first get into technology? You obviously love technology and I think our listeners would be very curious to know how you first became interested in it and besides, the nano technology which you are using today, other technology that you see are especially important. Marcie: Yeah like many engineers. I've emerged from very early on. So, I remember when I was very young, my father who was also an engineer would take me to the basement and we'll build electronic circuits and radios and do all kind of cool, crazy stuff in the basement. But when I got older, I didn't explore. At AT&T Bell Labs and what that was I call that branch of boy scouts and we were able to go into AT&T and basically, play with other toys. So, play with their softwares, computers and play with some of their electronic stuff. And that I really developed a love for understanding how things work and using that knowledge to build something from it. I say that's my first exposure to technology. And as far as what technologies I think are cool, for me what's cool is the applications. So I get very excited when a technology comes out that has the chance of really improving the world. And I think that right now we're at a very critical point in history where there's a lot of technologies that are coming out that will help us live in balance with the world around us. And I find that very exciting. So it's not just renewable energy. But for example, I read about some technologies that can take salt water and turn it into fresh drinking water without using very much electricity to do it. And I find that very exciting. Also a lot of the work with the Smart Grid I find very interesting. So right now it costs a lot more money to produce electricity when all of your neighbors are using electricity, but it doesn't cost very much to produce it in the middle of the night when no one's using it. So a lot of the technologies out there are to help levelize that load, which is good for conventional energy sources but is also good for renewables as well. And there's also a lot of battery technology out there that I find very interesting and has the potential of being storage for the national grid. So I like looking at how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together, and seeing how this critical time in history is going to unfold to the point that we are burning less coal and living more in harmony with our surroundings. So I find that very exciting. Lucy: Well and we do too. We just interviewed the CTO of WiTricity, wireless electricity. And that was just fascinating. That whole area is so interesting. Larry: It sure is. Now Marcie, here you are a "nerd." You've been with some magnificent companies, from Lucent and AT&T and all, and certainly a crossover with Lucy's background also. But why are you an entrepreneur and what is it about you that makes this entrepreneur tick? Marcie: I never woke up and said, "I think I want to be an entrepreneur." For me it was more about how to best get technology into the marketplace. And so I worked in government labs, and academia, and big industry. And they all have a piece in the puzzle. But I think if you are really driven by taking an idea, and making a product out of it, and getting it into the consumers' hands, I think the fastest way to do that is in a small company. And so for me that's part of what makes me interested in being an entrepreneur. I also really enjoy in a small company the team atmosphere. And how everyone is working together to make the company move foreword and helping each other just to make it work. I find that very motivating in doing a small company. Lucy: Well we almost have to work together. Larry: Yes, you bet... Marcie: Right, right. Otherwise the company won't succeed. Lucy: Absolutely. It is true. We were just reading... I forget where it was that a lot of the smaller companies now are where real innovation is going on. The adaptation of ideas and so forth, that's where a lot of the job creation is right now as well. So it is an interesting time in start-ups. So along the way you mentioned that you had had this time with Lucent and time with Bell Labs where you could be in the labs and tinker with things. And that your father encouraged you from an early age. Who else has encouraged you in this path? Being a technologist, of taking risks, and being an entrepreneur? Marcie: That's a good question. I felt very fortunate to have had so many people really help me throughout my career at different times. So when I was young I mentioned my father introduced me to the love of science and engineering. And later on a lot of my professors really taught me how to think critically and understand technological problems. And into my Ph.D. my advisor was Professor Millie Dresselhaus, and she taught me. She's a very hard worker. She works all the time. And that taught me the value of a strong work ethic. And throughout my career there have been other people. Like now there are quite a few people including my board members and other mentors that help me on how to learn the new set of skills that you need to know when you're starting a business. So I can't really pin down one person. There's been a whole bunch of people that have been very nice to help me out throughout they years. Larry: You've done lots of very interesting things, and I would like to ask the question: What is the toughest thing that you've had to do during your career? Lucy: [laughs] There's been a lot of things that have been tough throughout my career, but I have to say the most difficult is probably starting Bandgap, because there are so many aspects that have to come together in order to make a company successful. So, when you're doing research, you have to get the technology right, and the engineering right. But, in a small company, you also have to get the IP right, and the culture right, and set up a good infrastructure in the company. There are million different things to think about, that all have to come into play in order for the company to be successful. So I find that both challenging and rewarding at the same time, but it's definitely the most challenging part of my career so far. Lucy: I have a follow up question to that. We don't really interview many cheap technology officers; we will interview founders or CEOs. So, our listeners may want to know, what is the role of a CTO in a startup company? How would you describe what you do in Bandgap? Marcie: I think it's funny because I've been talking to a lot of my other CTO founder friends, and what we've decided is that the title really doesn't mean much. It basically means you do what needs to be done to make the company successful. So, different people end up doing very different jobs with the same title. So, some people are in the labs, working side-by-side with their people, and other people are filing patents and writing grants. And other people are doing all of the above. So, I think it depends on the company and what the company needs, as well as what the CTO founder wants to do. Larry: Good point. Lucy: Great answer. I think that the role of CTO is pretty broad in a lot of companies. And I think it's really good advice hidden in what you just said: don't get hung up on the title. When you're in a startup company, everybody's there to row the boat and it doesn't really matter what they're doing, as long as the boat's moving forward. If you were talking to a young person about being an entrepreneur, what other advice would you give them? Marcie: I wouldn't advise people specifically to be an entrepreneur, even though I love it. What I'd advise them to do is, really figure out what drives them. And I think, don't take this the wrong way, but if what drives them is making money or having proceeds, it's probably not the best route for them. [laughter] But, if what drives them is, for example, bringing technology to the market and trying to make the world a better place through their technology, then I would advise them to become entrepreneurs. Once they decide to become an entrepreneur, my biggest advice is to follow your passion and do what you enjoy and what you really believe in. Because if you believe in something and you work hard at it, you're much more likely to be successful. Lucy: So, let me rephrase the question just a little bit, then, and ask you: how would you interest a young person in pursuing technology today? What would you say to them that might hook them to get that interest? Marcie: Well I did technology simply because it was fun. Lucy: Yeah. [laughter] Marcie: But then, as you know, I worked on it more, I got good at it and then it made sense for me that I stay in technology. So, I guess I would probably invite them to a lab and play in lab with them, so they could see how much fun it was. Lucy: It is a great deal of fun. I'll come! [laughter] Larry: There you go. I'm there. Lucy: I'm there. Larry: What are some of the characteristics that have given you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Marcie: That's a good one. I've noticed that all the successful entrepreneurs I know are very optimistic, and I am definitely optimistic, as well. But you can't be blindly optimistic; you have to be what I call "realistic optimist". You can't have your blinders on, but you do have to be able to see a way that the company can be successful, and arrange it so all the parts fall into place, so that task remains clear and you can move forward down that path. So I say optimism. Also persistence and work ethic are also very important and seem to be consistent among the successful entrepreneurs that I've met. Larry: Marcie, thank you very much for that. I agree 100 percent. Marcie: Are you optimistic and working hard? Larry: You got it. Lucy: Larry's an entrepreneur too. Many times over, we're both insane about entrepreneurship. So, we totally get it. Larry: Well, I only heard the word insane, but that's OK. Lucy: That's OK too. So it is hard work to be an entrepreneur and you do need to have passion and you need to be motivated, I think, truly by bringing innovation out into the world. And yet entrepreneurs do have personal lives and struggle sometimes to bring balance between the professional and the personal lives. What do you do to attend to this issue? Marcie: It's a tough one. I think what allows me to be able to do both, is that I really enjoy both my jobs. When I say both my jobs, my other job is I'm a mom. I have two wonderful children. And so I go to work and I love my job. And then I come home and I'm with my kids and I really love being their mom as well. And so, that makes it a lot easier and allows me to work many more hours because it reenergizes me. Lucy: That's exactly right, I feel. I mean I honestly think that where I saw young parents who were struggling a lot between, with this balance issue, it was when work had become tedious. Larry: Right. Lucy: And they had to give up a lot. They had to give up being with their children for a job that they didn't find fulfilling. And so this notion that you need to be in love with both of them, I think is very sage wisdom. Larry: Yes. We love all five of our children too. Marcie: Yeah. And I guess I feel fortunate that I've managed to get a job that I really love. Larry: That's great. Lucy: I somehow think that you're always going to have jobs you really love. Larry: I think so too. Lucy: I think so too. Larry: Now, you've already achieved a great deal. And I realize your company today is only three years old. But what's next for you? Marcie: I won't be happy with what I've achieved until our cells have replaced the coal plant. So, I guess the first answer to that is to build Bandgap up to the point that we're producing a significant amount of solar energy that is making an impact on our electricity production. And it's not just building a big company. I want to build a company that obviously makes money and impacts the world. But also, at the same time, I'm hoping to build a culture where people can grow professionally at the company. Where they can come and contribute, but also improve themselves as well. So when I do that, then I'll feel like I've had a successful career. And then probably the next thing that I would accomplish is traveling all over the world. Larry: Ah-ha. Lucy: Ah. Where do you want to go? Marcie: Oh. I would love to go to Africa. And like Egypt and yeah, many places actually. I very much enjoy the music of Africa and would love to go visit it. Lucy: Wow. I've never been there. Plus I know you're in Boulder, Colorado. We have a coal plant that you could replace. Larry: Yes. That's right. Lucy: And we could turn it into a shopping mall. Marcie: That would be great. Lucy: It's rather unsightly. Larry: It's not Africa here but it is Boulder, so maybe we could get you here. Lucy: We'll introduce you and maybe you could talk them out of their coal plant. That would be awesome. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: Thank you so much for talking to us Marcie. And you have a great company with a great mission and a great background. And we didn't even get into your background around your authorship and journals and patents. You're truly a technical expert in this area and I know your company's going to succeed. So, thank you so much for talking to us. Marcie: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Larry: Yes. And we're going to follow up on you, so be careful. Lucy: Oh, and you have to remind people where they're going to find this. Larry: Oh yes. You can also listen to this interview 24/7 at w3w3 dot com and the NCWIT channel. And you can download it as a podcast. We'll make sure we have it on the blog. And Marcy, thank you so much. Lucy: Thanks Marcie. Marcie: Thank you. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Marcie BlackInterview Summary: The mission statement on Bandgap Engineering's website says nearly everything you might want to know about what drives its co-founder and CTO, Marcie Black: "Our motivations are many and varied. We want to mitigate the impact of humans on climate change and ease the global political tensions caused by competition for scarce fossil fuels. As parents we are inspired to leave the world a better place for our children and their children. As entrepreneurs we love the thrill of a startup and think our technology represents a very, very good business opportunity. As scientists and engineers we are motivated to tackle difficult and very meaningful technical challenges." Release Date: August 23, 2010Interview Subject: Marcie BlackInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 18:04

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Krista Marks General Manager, Disney Online Kerpoof Studios Date: August 2, 2010 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes Lucy Sanders: Hi this is Lucy Sanders. I am the CEO of NCWIT or the National Center for Women and Information Technology. And this is one in a series of interviews that we're doing with great entrepreneurs, women who have started IT companies. And they all have great stories to tell, especially in the areas of entrepreneurship and the technology of the future. And with me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi, I am happy to be here. Lucy: What's going on with w3w3? Larry: Well we're doing all kinds of very neat things; we interview all kinds of neat people. But we really enjoy the NCWIT interviews because I'm having four daughters, and this idea of information technology in helping support women, it's just fantastic. Lucy: Well today is a real treat for us because today we're interviewing one of my absolute favorite people and entrepreneurs, Krista Marks. And she's a real blend of technical accomplishments, and social passion, and entrepreneurial spirit. You cannot spend more than five seconds with Krista without getting all kinds of really great information, and energy, and passion. And I had the privilege of interviewing her recently at Entrepreneurs Unplugged Session, and it was just a real treat. Everybody loved it. And I know our listeners are going to love the interview today. She's the co-founder of Kerpoof Studios, but before that in working in many technical areas with great technical credentials, patent-holder, et cetera. And when she started Kerpoof it was around a passion of children and innovation, and a great place to be on the Internet for learning. And apparently Disney thought that as well, and acquired Kerpoof in 2008. And Krista is now the general manager of Disney Online. And like I said at the Entrepreneurial Unplugged event she gets that little Mickey Mouse on her card, which I'm entirely jealous about. So welcome Krista. We're very excited to interview you. Krista Marks: Thank you. Thank you. It's good to be here. Lucy: Why don't you tell us a little bit of about what's going on at Disney first before we launch into the interview. Krista: Well one of the most exciting things that's going on, everything on the Create portal is done in bolder. And if you go to disney.com there's a game portal like a video portal, but there's now a Create portal. And that was the vision when Disney acquired us, that we would take an extended technology we've done around Kerpoof and really combine it with their IT, and build kind of an area on that dedicated to creativity. And we've done that. But we have a very big event that's going on now that I'm super excited and proud about which is a digital mosaic. Lucy: Oh wow. Krista: It's a large scale mosaic. There are images of Mickey. We provide the tools for kids to create drawings online. Those drawings are submitted and once moderated there incorporated into a Mosaic of Mickey that takes thousands and thousands pieces of art. In fact, we are rolling out different images of Mickey and each one is populated as a Mosaic. The whole portal is very exciting but for me this is sort of the combination of what is exciting about the web. Is this idea, the technology the technology for those not interesting to me but technology combined with the kind of things you can do in terms of being kids into this story? Be part of the story to participate and that kind of interaction is just super exciting. And to do something on that scale so its not just, "hey kids come in and draw, hey kids come in and draw and be part of something larger. Is part of a large Mosaic dedicated to Mickey?" In addition, it has been hugely successful I think were over 300,000 pieces of art created today. Lucy: Wow that is awesome. I am going to check that out four sure. In addition, its just so fascinating to you knows Krista is a real pioneer in the area of innovation for kids on line and it is very inspiring. Therefore, I am glad a company that is big as Disney is getting into that, that whole area. Krista: Serious, honestly is not it I thought it was very exciting. The reality is to have a company with number one family media company in the world really embrace bringing the kids into this story. Not just saying here is our art and here is art beautiful this is what they do well. Right, they create content saying, "you know what kids we want you to create content too, we want you to be part of that." I think its extraordinary exciting and I am really proud to be part of it. Lucy: Absolutely, one of the things that we always like to ask people and you rather go back in time a little bit. And think through here you are at Disney today but you were not always at Disney. You were interested in technology for some reason so why don't you tell us how you first got interested in technology. And as you look at the technical landscape today what technology do you think are especially important? Krista: My road is not, some ways its super smooth because I went, I graduated high school and I went to college and I studied electrical engineering. I would say it was unsmooth and it is why NCWIT is so important and that when I went to college I did not know about technology or pursuing a career in technology. Which for me it ended up being electrical engineering but obviously the number of careers one can choose in technology. For me what happened in high school is that I really gravitated in mathematics and science, problem solving. This is the areas that I like, unfortunately when I got to orientation for college I sat next to a student and I said what your major is. In addition, they said they were an electrical engineer and I said I do not know what that is, what is that? And they said oh well, I do not what that is either. But I know that if you really like math and physics, that it's really the best major to have and I said oh my gosh. Those are my two favorite things. So I really fell into it. And so I think, why NCWIT is so critical in the kinds of things they're doing, that you are doing which is so important, is that I would like no young person to start college not knowing what computer science, engineering, electrical engineering, all of the areas that on can pursue in technology, bio engineering. You know, the list goes on and on. But to be really aware of those opportunities, it may not be for everyone. But at least to be aware of them and so mindfully know what you're choosing from, when you choose a career. So anyway, again, I think I got lucky which I don't think is a good thing. But the good news is I did end up there and love technology and in fact really wanted, from that point on, to be part of designing technology. And spent a number of years, my first eleven years, designing custom electronics for high energy physics experiments. Got to work around the world, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, that really solidified my love of technology. Again, I was just working on really state of the art technology and systems. Great experience, great first experience. Worked with some real giants in that field and had amazing mentors. So that's kind of how I landed in technology. In terms of technology that I think is very interesting right now. I first would say, look at the I-pad, for a number of reasons. But for me, particularly, and again I'm interested in kids and technology. And the reality is kids learn by touching things. And so the I-pad is just perfectly designed for this demographic. And I think increasingly kids will literally learn how to read and problems solve using these types of devices. You know, what's interesting is, is I'm a part of a number of groups that are always thinking, gosh, can digital media actually make a difference. We have a lot of kids that are falling behind that aren't doing well. And there's always, can it be the silver bullet. We know that kids need scaffolding and they need adults to be there to help them succeed. But can digital media, can technology actually help set them and do something about this. And I think, to me, the I-pad is the first device, first piece of technology. And actually I like to bring up I-pad because a lot of times I think young people don't even think about the I-pad, the I-phone, the computer, that those are pieces of technology that are designed by technologists, right. And that how cool to have a career that, that's the kind of stuff you create, right. And I always say engineers. Look, at the end of the day all we do, we just create stuff. We build stuff whether it be Google the website, whether it be a Ferrari car, whether it be a Boeing airplane, whether it be an I-pad, and I-touch right. Software and hardware, that's what we do, we're creators, we're builders. So that's a piece that's exciting to me. I'm a little excited, I got to go to E3 which is of course the big conference this year, has to spend a little time there. In addition, have to see Microsoft's new Kinect, which of course is new tall. To me you know I would of prior to see thing that I would said the Wii. I think the Wii is very interesting piece of technology. I think its bringing back the sense of intergenerational game play. And again technology for technology's sake is not interesting to me but technology as a means to do interesting things like intergenerational play, very exciting. That takes that to the next level where you have Kinect where your whole body becomes the controller. Right, so you jump up and down on the screen the avatar jumps up and down. This is big stuff this is exciting stuff. I will say in the world self-serving but I think what we just did with the group wall, the digital Mosaic. [inaudible 09:01] is part of the kind of technology that to me is exciting, really pushing what the web can deliver. That level of interactive that frankly up to recently I would say you really only got from desktop software. Lucy: You know I saw Kinect at the Microsoft Facility Summit; it was interesting very, very interesting technology. Larry: Wow, you know, Krista, I thought when I fist met you at First Robotics, when you and I were both judges and of course, Lucy and her husband who were very involved also. But you mentioned Lawrence Livermore National Labs; about 20 years ago, they were a client to mine. Krista: What a small world. Larry: So I wonder if we met there. Krista: Actually, I was at Lawrence Berkley National Labs, something different then Lawrence Livermore. Larry: Oh, OK. Lucy: There all related to Lawrence. Larry: Is that the case. Krista: Actually there not, interesting a little aside the Lawrence was connected with Lawrence Berkley. In fact, his family has fought a long time to have his name removed from Lawrence Livermore. Because he really did high-energy research. He did not do bomb testing or development so a little aside. Lucy: That is interesting. Larry: It is and in fact when I think back there were very few women at all at Lawrence Livermore, very few. Anyhow you know here you are you got this techie background, you like solving problems in math and physics and all. Why you are an entrepreneur and what is about entrepreneurship that makes you tick? Krista: You know I have not really thought about this it is a good question and the more I thought about it. I have been asked this before and one of the simplest reasons and I do not think probably unusual is my father was entrepreneur. I think there's always been a piece of me I really admire him and admire what he has accomplished. I think its something always in the back of my head that is a big dream. I also think, honestly I think it is in the water in the United States. I think we're born and bred on the idea that you can strike it on your own. You can really start your own company. It is an extraordinary thing about this country that makes me excited to be here. I think there's not that you cannot be an entrepreneur in other countries but its very favorable here. We have a very nurturing environment being an entrepreneur. But first of all, my father, I think some other things happened that were critical. I think the reason a lot of people aren't entrepreneurs is not that they don't want to be, but because it's too scary. You have a good job. You're getting good pay. Why would you leave that for something that, frankly, that most people fail. You go to making no money and very unsure. A different level of stress. Because now, really, the buck stops with you in a very real genuine way. And I think because of all that, most people don't make the leap. I had two pivotal events. And I think it's an interesting thing to share because it really validates how I think having mentors or people that believe in you can impact you. I met a very famous entrepreneur, Jerry Fiddler. He's actually the cofounder of Wind River. A company that he grew literally from his garage to a billion dollar company. And I was on a ski trip with mutual friends and he was there. And it was all week. And we were skiing together. And during the course of the week he got to know me. And by the end of the week he said, "I think you would be an amazing entrepreneur. And not only that, I think you would be an amazing CEO and entrepreneur." And I think that someone who you kind of look up to, validates you, and says that, it has a huge impact. And so, at that point, I knew I was going to do it. It was a matter of finding the right group to do it with. It's not true for everyone, but for me, it was really important to do it with cofounders. And I was at Xilinx for the time, and three other people who were at Xilinx, three other engineers, we all had had a lot of success at Xilinx. A very wonderful company Xilinx. And I got to lead some products that really made a difference to their bottom line and their company. And I felt like, wow, I think I can do this. I think I have some good instincts. One of the things I learned when I left Lawrence Berkeley Lab and went to industry, and went to Xilinx that I didn't know about myself was how competitive I was. And I was working on products. And this raging competitor came out of me. When we would lose design wins, I would be so angry. And I would say to the sales people, "What do you mean we've lost?" And they would say, "Well, Krista, you're products are only one of many pieces that factor into a win." And I would say, "What are you talking about? My products should be so good it should determine the win. I want to talk to your customers." And I would go to the customers. And I would say, "What could we have done? Could we have done anything?" And in fact, there were things. They said, if you did 120 of this bus, and you did dynamical lining. You know what? We would have given it to you. Well, we went back and we did those things. And in fact, [inaudible 13:40] at our customer and led to the success. But what I learned is that it's obvious. It's not like a lot of people don't know. But was listening to customers. How powerful that can be. Truly viewing what they want and the kind of success you can have from that. So I think that combined with obviously having seen a father that ended up having role model sort of confirm that they think I could be good at it. With sort of already having some product success within the company and feeling my instincts are good. I think this is something I could do. I think all of that came together to make me able to take that leap. That's a scary leap. I don't think anyone who takes that first leap to become an entrepreneur and start a company from scratch. I always see it as jumping off a cliff. In fact, the other three cofounders, I always said, "We're going jump off this cliff together, and here's what I know. If we hold hands, don't let go, ever. We'll succeed. If we hold hand and don't ever let go, we'll succeed." And I use that metaphor a lot actually. Even when we sold the business, I said that, "Look. You guys, we got to hold hands here. We're holding hands. We're stronger as a four than we are individually." I think that's true. Lucy: That's really awesome advice. And I want to point out Jerry Fiddler's encouragement as being something really important, especially to many women to start companies. That he saw a great skill and he encouraged it. And here we have Krista today, having done a lot of great technology, and a successful entrepreneur. I had cause to be in a room with him once. When he found out I was from Boulder, he came up and said, "Do you know Krista Marks? She's just fabulous. Do you know about Kerpoof?" Larry: Whoa! Wonderful. Lucy: So, he's definitely your fan. Krista: Well that's funny because I actually... at that ski trip, I said Jerry when I become an entrepreneur this means you have to be an advisor. That's what you're signing up for right? I had locked him in right then. Lucy: Oh, that's great. Krista: He was an advisor to Kerpoof. Lucy: So see, I think we know what makes Krista tick about entrepreneurship. It's great. So, along the way Krista you have obviously done some tough things in your career. Why don't you tell the listeners one thing that's especially tough that you've had to do? Krista: I'll answer that in two ways. The short answer is becoming an entrepreneur. By far. Just that single decision to leave the security of a good job. I was doing very well in the context of where I was, and take that risk. Career wise, that was the most radical thing I've ever had to do. I think there are two other things. I think if you become a manager, which I did when I went to Xilinx, I took on a manager role. So, I was managing a group of engineers in Silicon Valley and then eventually also in Boulder that were developing technology. And I think when you become a manger, one of the hardest things in any career, in my opinion, is the first time you have to let someone go. The first time you have to fire someone. That was so hard that I really questioned whether I wanted to be in a leadership role anymore. It really was that difficult. I think it's always a hard thing. I think the first one was the most traumatic for me. It really was very hard and yet really critical in that role. I mean I say if you can't take on that [inaudible 16:55] role, you shouldn't be in that role because the reality is as best as we try to vet people when we hire them, we don't always do a perfect job. So that was very difficult for me. I think the other thing that was tough for me, in terms of it took sort of a ton of brain power is we lead first, we're entrepreneurs. And we initially launched Kerpoof in January of 2007. And we actually didn't have a lot of traffic. And I think we and the founders really had a tough, very tough decision about, do we keep going or do we do something else. You have to understand that was such a radical thing to do. We, all our hardware engineers and software engineers, the software engineers developing for hardware. Really pretty much a high tech classic background and we're coming to not only developing for children, a consumer web space. I mean, we really could not have in many ways, left our domain more completely. And everyone we talked to just thought we were insane, everyone just though we had lost our marbles. You know, why were we doing it? Xilinx is the leader in a product called a field programmable gate array and why are you doing some of that gate array, are you crazy. And we were following our heart, which I think is critical but with that comes more risk, right? You don't know, you don't know. You don't have the context of this. There's risk with that, so. And then combine with when you launch the product. And of course we thought we launch it in and everyone and their mother would use it and that didn't happen. So, we decided to stick with it and at that point, really I think did some true market research. There are two types of market research. One is you find what you want to hear and that feels good. And one is you really, you've got to get the answer. You dig deep. You're looking hard for the answers. And when we did that we really learned some stuff. We made some fairly modest tweaks to Kerpoof. And at that point really started watching it grow, watching the traffic grow. And it's interesting, a lot of the time it's true for entrepreneurs. They often, too quickly throw everything away and completely do something different, when often a small course correction can have a big impact. So that was very, I don't know if that's what you're looking for but I think that's for me personally was a pretty tough decision. Larry: Well speaking of tough decisions and giving good advice, how about if you were sitting down right now and across the desk from you was a young person considering entrepreneurship. What advice would you give them? Krista: That's so funny because my nephew is [inaudible 19:20] is interested in becoming an entrepreneur, so I just did this. I just had a delightful meeting with him over coffee. And that's what he's asking me, right. What was my advice? So I'll tell you the truth because I just did this and that's what I just said. The first thing I said is, "Get a co-founder." One of the things and I talked to a fair number of people and they have a good idea and they're kind of on their own. And I think there's a lot of value, I actually think there's a lot of value and in fact there is research to back up that diminishing return on number of founders doesn't go down until after five. Sort of shocking. If there's a lot of assumptions around the five, I think the five have to be... you offer diversity to their offering different skill sets. But literally and figure the five founders. So one of the things I say because I think it was so critical to me in my success was having co-founders. It's at least one other person. Once a very practical thing, if you can't convince one other person to jump off that cliff with you, how good of an idea is it? [laughter] Lucy: That's a very good point? Larry: Yeah. Krista: Right? That's one [inaudible 20:22] of a idea. But it is such a scary thing. And I say it feels a lot scarier than it is. I think the interesting thing about being an entrepreneur, I was impressed. What was the big deal and the other side is that it's such a big deal. But at the time those decisions feel so big and just having at least one other person hold hands. So the first thing I said to him was he needs to find a co-founder and the good news for him is he has. The other is I actually think the number one indicators for success as an entrepreneur has nothing to do with talent and little to do with good idea. I truly believe that and this is kind of a radical thing to say, it has to do with being tenacious. You need to want it, you need to have the drive, you're going to be there and if it's not right, you're going to make it right. Like I said, I said to my co-founders, "As long as we hold hands. Look, we may be really slow, it may take us 10 years before we have success but we will get to success. That's a given, we're going to get to success. I don't know how long that will take but we're going to get there." So I naturally had the tenacity and the drive and I think you got to have that. If you don't have that it's too hard. You'll just give up because it's too hard. And it's too much of an emotional roller-coaster. Look, most of the time you're looking for people to say yes. Whether it be you're trying to sell something to someone or an investor and the majority of the time you get a no, right? No, no, no, no and then it maybe turns into a no. So it's tough, it's really tough. So if you didn't have that drive and tenacity because you're following your heart, you have a passion. Do you have like, "You're going to work on this day and night, night and day until it's right because you just have to. It's just in your blood, you got to do it." You got to have that. If you don't have that then I sort of think good luck because this is not an easy thing, I think, to succeed. So you have to have kind of had that drive and passion. I think it says the obvious but one of the things I go back to the co-founder. I think it's a very interesting relationship with the co-founder. I almost liken it to a marriage though it's not a marriage but it's literally subjected to that much stress. And so you really, ideally the people that you co-found with you know pretty well, you really trust them, you're really comfortable with them. Because I think if you're not, if the trust isn't there, if that relationship isn't there, I find it hard to believe it would hold up to the kind of stress that is typical for a new entrepreneur. There's exceptions to these. I'm very much shaped by my own experience, so certainly take it with a grain of salt. The two core things in terms of once you decide to be an entrepreneur that I think have shaped me and I believe in, is build value first. One of the things that served us really well is, I felt like if we built value, we would succeed. Instead of focusing on, can we make a million billion dollars? Can we be bought by Disney? Instead of focusing on anything that might be a success scenario, just focusing on building value. So, look, we build this digital drawing tool for online for kids, let's build it really well. Let's make it great! I don't know that that will come with success, but I know that if we keep building value, we'll get there. The correlate of that is to follow your heart. I also think being an entrepreneur is really hard, so even when people are saying, "You are nuts! What do you know about kids? What do you know about the consumer's space?" If that's where your heart is... It's so hard, right? It can't be a means to an end. You have to enjoy the process. And we did. We would develop things for kids, they'd bring kids to the site, they would play with them. We may have been, in the early days, really kind of struggling, but that brought so much joy. Right? Building value, seeing [inaudible 23:56] kid liking it, feeling like, hey, we're on to something! I think part of that was really this fight. To a person, everyone's advice that we were crazy... We really did follow our hearts. Lucy: Yes you did. We had the pleasure of working with Kerpoof a little bit, and it was a great deal of fun. So, Krista, this advice is wonderful advice, and from it you can derive certain personal characteristics about Krista. For example, passion, and competitiveness, and tenacity. But also listening, valuing what the end customer, in this case kids - what do they need? Truly listening to those requirements. What other personal characteristics do you have that you think have given you advantages as an entrepreneur? Krista: Besides tenacity, which I think is a big one - drive, tenacity - I think... To me, this so overwrites everything, but it's very easy. Think of it as audience. Because it's particularly true for technologists, I just think we love technology. We just do, and so it's very easy to get caught up in the technology and forget the customer. It just doesn't matter how cool whatever you're widget is if no one else cares about it. Really identifying who your audience is, who your customer is. I really think focusing, and then being able to listen to your customer. I think sort of that's in general a characteristic of a good entrepreneur. They genuinely want to build things that people are going to use. That maybe isn't as true for a business to business. But I would say even in the business to business kind of entrepreneur at the end of the day the corporate clients that you're going to have or the business clients you're going to have. What do they want? What are their pain-points? What are they struggling with? I just recently talked to a really neat entrepreneur, but I felt like they had 10 ideas. I mean they were all good, but it was hard for me to feel they could all do well at once. I really, my advice to them, personally was just take one, focus on it, do it extremely well, and then grow that, expand that. I think there are a lot of ideas. So one of the characteristics of entrepreneurs that is very valuable is being able to narrow and focus in a very clear way. And sort of to know that focus should become bigger and when it should become narrower. That's a really critical skill. Larry: With everything that you do Krista, and I know you're busy well about 48 hours a day, how do you bring balance into your personal and professional lives? Krista: It's such a [inaudible 26] question for me, because I feel like it doesn't apply as well to entrepreneurs. And the reason is, I think typically when people talk about work life balance, there's very much this notion that work is something that you do because you need to see a paycheck. And so you want to just to turn it off, and not worry about it, and go. And I think when you follow your heart and you're doing what you're passionate about you realize it's 24/7, but it's a different kind of 24/7. And it doesn't mean it's not tiring, it doesn't mean it's not going to cost to your family and friends, certainly. And this is [inaudible 27:02] somewhat true. First becoming an entrepreneur, and even now being part of Disney I don't see as much of my family and friends. But in part that's because I love what I do. I want to do it. I love what I do. But that thing said, we did feel like they were diminishing returns and not being somewhat careful of burnout. And when we became a company we all agreed that we'd take one day off a week. We didn't always honor that. But I think we have the notion of trying to do that, of really trying it one day a week, which was typically Sunday. That know you're coming to the office. That we'd spend time with our friends and family, we'd rejuvenate, go hiking in the mountains, whatever. And certainly that helped. But, again, it is a finer line I think when what you're doing, particularly in entrepreneur it does become all consuming. It's funny one made the analogy. And I thought it was such a good analogy that in many ways being an entrepreneur, starting a company is much like having a child. And if you ever meet a new parent they're obsessed with their child. They want to show you pictures of the child, they want to talk about their child. They're really not interested in anything else in the world, right? There could be earthquakes, and there could be things going on, and they're just oblivious, right? And, that's their first year bubble of new child. And, entrepreneurs are a lot like that. I said - I always joked, you know, that - that the only family they spend a lot to time with - In the first couple of years of my being an entrepreneur, of starting Kerpoof, were people who were into Kerpoof. If you were into Kerpoof, then we could have a good conversation. If you didn't want to have a Kerpoof, I didn't really have much more I wanted to talk about. So, there is sort of a - And, there is an all consumingness that may not happen to everyone. It certainly happens to some entrepreneurs. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. You know, I think it's part of doing something extraordinary. It's part of succeeding. I think to answer your question really in the most succinct way, I don' think I do bring a lot of balance to my life. But, I am trying to do a little better and not because I - to do it for it's sake, but because actually I do think that your relationships with your family and your friends are very important to the whole of your life. And, if you neglect it too long, obviously that's at a cost. So, not to say that I don't think those things need to be considered and nourished. And, I think I have neglected them, for sure. And, I am - I making up now for that. Lucy: Well, I learned how to speak Kerpoof. Larry: Yeah. You did. You did. Krista: You did. You did. And, we got to talk. Lucy: I learned how to speak Kerpoof. And, listeners should also know that Krista is very generous with her time in the community with First Robotics, and certainly with NCWIT, and other groups. So, we definitely appreciate that as well. So... So Krista, the last question - You've achieved a lot. You know, you - I'm sure - have things that you want to accomplish in the future. Why don't you tell us a bit about what's next for you. Krista: You know what? One thing that... I don't know. I feel ostensibly believe life is extremely long. I think people say life is short and they're just wrong. I think it's long. I think we have the ability at least in the United States for - Many people have the ability to do many things in the course of their life if they're interested. So, I'm 43 now. So, I believe as many things as I've done to date, I've will, at least if not more, just have found it wiser to do as many more. So, I think life is very long. I also don't tend to be a long-term planner. I never have. I think it's kind of hog wash - much more interested in today and - and short term. So, for me what I know for sure is I feel very passionately about making sure...I really would love to see Disney stay in Boulder. I would love that - how ever long that takes. And, that could take a decade. But, I would love to see Disney remain in Boulder as a presence in Boulder. I think it's an extraordinary company. And, I think they have a real need for the kind of talent... we have in Boulder-technical talents - and also in Dimmer, actually inside Colorado. People don't realize the creative talent. But it is the fifth state in the top five in terms of the number of creative people that are here - artists and creatives - and so that combination of creatives and technologists. I actually hate that word "creative" because I think engineers are creative. But anyways, that's still the term that's used. Creatives - so animators and artists and the kind of amazing engineering talent and technical talent that we have here. That combined is very special. So it's not just an act to have Disney here. I think Disney can actually flourish here. I think we can continue to add something important to what they're trying to achieve with digital media. So that's one goal. Also, and I think this is happening but I really believe that we are changing the face of the Internet in some meaningful way for kids. I think that historically the large companies that frankly own the kids audience. The reality is kids go to very few sites. Nick.com, Disney.com obviously are the two big ones. Then there are a number of other players. Club Penguin certainly is one. But there are only a small number of sites. So what you want is for those sites to offer engaging entertainment but also offer participation, interactivity, and the ability to design because one of the things that's unique to the computer that's not true for a mobile device at least today, and it's certainly not true for a TV, is you can't design. So the computer is this unique platform. I think that, not those mobile platforms won't also be this, but those platforms you actually can participate, right? So to me this large piece of having a place and do that kind of dedicated creativity is a step towards we just move in a direction that nobody would think of doing otherwise. If you create something for kids, you just wouldn't imagine not offering some level of genuine engagement, some level of genuine participation, if it is computer-Internet based. That would just be an obvious step. I don't think we're there yet, but I think we're moving there. One of our competitors - actually it was interesting - I just noticed launched a very modest, but albeit a little center dedicated to creativity on their site, a site you wouldn't anticipate that from. I just thought that was so exciting, right? To me, you know you're leading when people are following. If you're leading in a place that's interesting for kids, then that's very exciting to me. I guess to me that's what's next. Lucy: We vote for that, and we vote for Disney in Boulder. Larry: Yeah, you bet you! Lucy: Absolutely. Well, thank you, Krista. This was very interesting as always. We really appreciate it and want to remind listeners to look for this interview at W3W3.com and also NCWIT.org. Krista: Oh, and thank you, Larry and Lucy. It's really my pleasure to be here. Larry: It's great, and of course we're going to have to follow up on you again. Lucy: Thank you, Krista. Krista: Thank you. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Krista MarksInterview Summary: "When I went to college, I didn't even know about technology or pursuing a career in technology," says Krista. "Fortunately when I got to orientation for college, I sat next to a student who said she was going to major in electrical engineering. 'What is that?' I said. And she said, 'I know that if you really like math and physics, it's the best major to have. I said, 'Oh my god, those are my two favorite things! I would like every student to be aware of the available opportunities when they're choosing a career. I did end up there and loved technology. In fact, from that point on I really wanted to be involved in designing technology. I spent the first eleven years designing custom electronics, and got to work around the world." Release Date: August 2, 2010Interview Subject: Krista MarksInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 33:56

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Katie Hall Chief Technology Officer, WiTricity Date: July 16, 2010 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women & Information Technology or NCWIT, and this is the next in a series of interviews with women who have started IT companies, just wonderful entrepreneurs who have a lot to tell us about their success in entrepreneurship, a lot of great advice. With me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi Larry. Larry Nelson: Hello. I'm so happy to be here. This is a great organization, NCWIT, and the interviews that you've been doing with all these wonderful women, sharp women, it's fantastic. Lucy: Well we're getting a lot of uptick on these interviews, a lot of good remarks from people, so thanks for that, and thanks for w3w3's partnership with us. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: Awesome. Also, Lee Kennedy is here, a serial entrepreneur and founder of Boulder Search who's also on the NCWIT Board of Directors. Hi Lee. Lee Kennedy: Hi, it's great to be here, I'm looking forward to this interview. Larry: Yeah. Lucy: I'm very excited about this interview. First of all, the person we're interviewing worked at Bell Labs. Yay! Lee: Yay! Larry: Yay! Lucy: We always like those Bell Labs people. She's a very impressive technologist. She's an expert in photonics, and she holds 11 patents, so I think easily one of the top technical talents that we've interviewed. She's a serial entrepreneur and her latest company is especially exciting, called WiTricity. They transfer, get this, electrical energy or power over distance without wires. Larry: Wow! Lucy: So imagine all the cables in a room-size space, all the cables disappearing. I personally think that would be just fabulous, considering all the cables I have right here in my office. I'm sure that we'll hear more about the technology, but I watched a YouTube video on WiTricity which I thought was hilarious, and people who are listening to this interview should go and pull it up and look at it, because the tag line that I wrote down was, "Being stuck in with a bad power cable is like being stuck in a bad relationship." [laughter] Lucy: That really describes their mission, and I'm very eager to get on with this interview with Katie Hall. Hi Katie, how are you? Katie Hall: I'm fine, thanks. Thanks very much for having me. Lucy: We really are looking forward to interviewing you. Why don't you tell me a bit about WiTricity? I should tell listeners that Katy is the CTO of the company, and we're very eager to hear... First of all, the name is interesting, so you might want to say why you chose it, but also what the latest happenings at the company are. Katie: OK great, thanks. WiTricity actually is a small start-up company that was founded at the end of 2007. It's a spin-out, really, from MIT and some technology that was developed there by a professor Marin Soljacic, who has a great story of how this technology came to be. Which is that he was woken up in the middle of the night a couple of times because he had a cell phone that, when it started to run out of charge, would beep. The only way he could get it to stop beeping was either to plug it in, or to actually take the battery out. You couldn't just turn the phone off. It was really annoying. You'd have to not only get up to have to deal with the phone, you'd have to find the cord, and maybe it was the fifth or sixth time in a row he'd been woken up and he finds himself standing in the kitchen holding the phone in his hand and looking at the outlet on the wall and saying, "Why can't this thing take care of its own charging? How come I can't just get the power from the outlet to the phone?" It really motivated him to start thinking about how could he get that power wirelessly to his cell phone. So, he did some looking around, being an MIT professor, you go off and you try to see what's already out there, is there a solution to the problem. But he couldn't find anything that could be used in a house that would be very efficient. There are things like radio waves that are used to transmit information from cell phone towers and for TV broadcasts and things like that. There are inductive systems where, if you have an electric toothbrush in your bathroom you might know that if you put it in the cradle it'll recharge itself. Those kinds of systems only work over very short distances. He wanted to be able to go actually a couple of feet. So he came up with this idea that he should be able to use resonance as a way to transfer the power, and the nice thing about resonance is that power is transferred between two resonant objects very efficiently, but it doesn't transfer power to anything else that is off-resonance. For something like a home application, you can transfer power from the outlet to the phone, but you're not going to put that power anywhere else, it's not going to be going into people or plants or any of the objects around it. So it's this great technology. He came up with it, demonstrated it, and the amount of interest from people when they saw the first demonstration, which was lighting a light bulb over about six or seven feet... Actually, the team was sitting in between the source coil and the receiver coil and then they were lighting a light bulb, and it just captured people's imaginations in a way that was amazing. Marin started to receive all kinds of calls and emails from people saying, "This is fantastic. Could I use it for this application, or that application?" We realized that this is the kind of thing that you start a company around. I'd known Marin for many years and had worked with him on other projects to do with photonics and, like you mentioned at the beginning, some of the stuff I had done originally at Bell Labs. He said, "We're going to start this company and we're looking for people who know how to do start-ups, would you be interested?" I absolutely jumped at the chance, because both the technology and the people involved in it were, to my mind, top-notch. The company has been around now for two years and we've been really doing the engineering that it takes to start to put this kind of technology into real-world products. We're looking at ways to recharge consumer electronics like cell phones and cameras and iPods and things like that, which are relatively low-power applications. We're also looking at things as different as charging electric vehicles. So, imagine you have an electric car and you can drive it into your driveway and then get out and go in the house and the car just takes care of its own charging. You don't actually have to plug it in. So, this is wide range of applications that the technology can address and we are developing all kinds of systems now to prove it out. Larry: Wow, that's fantastic. Lee: Can I be one of your pilot users? Lucy: Yeah. Larry: There you go. Wow. Lee: Awesome. Larry: Katie, we know prior to WiTricity, you were the founder of Wide Net Technologies but how did you exactly get into technology period? And then the other part of it is what technology do you find today that's very cool? Katie: Well, I was trying to think about how did I first get started, and I think for me really when I got the most interested in it, at least in science was in college. And oddly enough, I had no thought of being, spending my life or my career in science. When I entered college, I was really thinking more about being a politician because I really just... There were lots of things I felt there like the way they work and I thought just... You can make the world better and I can do that by being politician. That was really what my goal was when I first started. But I wanted to get my science requirement out of the way. So, I signed up for physics course when I was a freshman and it was a web course. Those introductory physics classes that you take where you roll a card stone and incline and you shoot balls out of pens and some things like that. And I just love it. It was so much fun. It was fun to actually do the work. It was fun to see there were equations that people understood the laws of motion and you could write down equations and predict how things are going to happen. And I just got absolutely hooked by the technology and especially by having my hands on something, working in the lab. And so then really, it only took me one semester before I switch my major with physics from there and on out that was really how I got interested in it. In terms of technology that I think is cool is I like the simplest things. I want to find something in the store that is a solution to some problem you have around the house. For example, one of the things I like to collect are these bicycle cups. I don't know if you have really seen those but they are sort of concentric rings and you can extend them and it forms a cup and then you can push them back down, pack it up and use it to carry in your back pocket. So, lot of the technologies that I like are very simple design that solve some kind of a fundamental problem. I really just like that something you look at it, you get it right away. And you do just think it's cool. I mean anybody who loves technology loves to see something well done like that well designed. Lucy: So, Katie, it's clear that you've been a serial entrepreneur and it sounds like from what you are just saying that it started off in college wanting to change the world. Tell us about what it is about entrepreneurship that really excite you and why you continue to work with new start-ups. Katie: Oh, it's funny. I think it is actually the same motivation which is that you want to make the world better. We can have an idea. You think you can see the way things are being done and you think they are not being done the best way they can be done and that you have a better solution and you want to go out and you want to prove it to people and you want to make it available to people. I think it's just so exciting to do a start up. You find a team of people. I love team work. I've always played sports all of my life. So, I really do enjoy being part of the team. It's kind of alarming when you work on your own and I think this is... When you get the right group of people together, what's the expression about the whole is more than the full its parts. When you can find something that comes together like that and all of a sudden your efforts are being amplified by the people around you and you are making real progress and you are able to change things. WiTricity is a great example. When we saw the excitement to everybody had for us to be able to eliminate wires and all kinds of applications. Some of them are medical for example. If you want to recharge and imprint device. Some of them are industrial. You can just really hopefully make the way people live, make their lives better with the technology and being able to be part of the team that developed that is really exciting. Lee: I say it's exciting. I'm sitting here and thinking can I come and help? It's very exciting. Lucy: I mean this is like a breakthrough technology. Katie: We love all the help we can get. Lee: Well, and so, it is a case I think that in your technologies, you are improving the world. I mean that's one of the goals that drive great technologists. Along the entrepreneurial past, who influenced you? Your mentors or who encourage you? We are always eager to hear that because it is very insightful. Katie: Yeah. It's interesting and I think it's important to recognize the people that helped you along the way because I certainly know I wouldn't be where I am today if it weren't for people that really helped me out every step of the way. And I think for me it started even when I was just a little kid. My grandfather was a bit of a tinker-er and an inventor. He was always coming up with things around the house. He made special kinds of carts that we could drive around in the driveway and built an automatic rebound machine. And he was only doing a little workshop down in the basement and he always includes us on that. Come on down and let's take this thing apart and figure out how it works. So, he was definitely a guy who was always curious and interested and because being around that note kind of sunk in. And of course, I also have to credit my mom as well who just was really... She just believed in all of us. All of her children so strongly that she would say, you've got to find what it is that you are good at and you have to do it well because the world needs people like that. And about that specifically saying go into science or that sort of thing but just find out what it is that you can do and try to make the world a better place. When I got to college, I had a great professor who actually taught that first class that I talked about. And really encourage me to stay in science. Especially when you're a freshman, if someone takes the time to find out who you are and what you're thinking, what you're interested in... In the case of Liz, she watched out for me all through college and told me, "These are the classes you should be taking." Before I finished up I actually worked in her lab on campus, just sitting around and talking, and finding out what her life had been like. You know, people who will stand by you. You have good weeks and bad weeks, you have good tests and bad test. Having somebody encourage you all along, so you keep that chin up and keep moving. Those kinds of people in your life are absolutely essential. When I went to Bell Labs I worked with a guy, his name is Bob Jopson, and he also gave me a lot of responsibility, but also a lot of help, in a really nice way. He'd give you really fun things to work on, but made sure that you had the resources that you needed to be successful. I actually went to Bell Labs before I went to graduate school. When I went to graduate school, I was lucky in the sense that I had spent a lot of time already working in the lab, and I was quite familiar with it and was able to fit right in. I had a professor at MIT, his name is Eric. He's very famous in the field of optics that he's working in, but he's a very down to earth guy. He was always there for his students, and taught us a lot about how to be professionals, how to review papers, how to participate in societies. I think I've also been especially lucky in that the people I've worked for have always been really upstanding people. They really care about doing things the right way and being ethical, and all of those things that are so important to science, and that get taught not in a class, but by working with people. I've really been blessed to have people that taught me those important lessons all the way along. Larry: That's great. With all the support that you've had over the years, and the successes that you've had over the years, what is the toughest thing that you ever had to do professionally? Katie: One of the things I love about what I do... I always think one of the most important things you can do when you're choosing a job is to consider the people that you're going to be working with. This is actually advise that Liz gave me when I was in college. She said, "Care a lot more about who you work with than what you work on." There are so many interesting problems in the world that you know you're going to be able to find good ones, but there's nothing that's really worth working on if you don't really like or trust the people that you're working with. The hardest times, when I look back on them, are times of change where maybe somebody was leaving some place to go take another position. And even though you might have been wishing them well, it's always hard when you lose a teammate, or if you had to cut down the size of a team because of the various things that were going on with the business or the economy. I think at work those are some of the hardest situations that you face. Lucy: Yeah, I think we've heard that consistently in the interviews we've done. Katie, you've had a lot of great advice, it sounds like, in your career, and we have a lot of young people that listen to our podcast. If you were sitting here today with a group of young people, what advice would you give them about entrepreneurship? Katie: That's a good question. I guess I think about the things that I've learned, and I think sometimes it's really important to try to take a risk and not be afraid to fail, because chances are you are going to fail at something along the way. You're going to certainly make mistakes, everybody does. Sometimes people can very clearly think about all the things that could go wrong down a path, but they forget to remember all the things that could go right, or how great it would be if it went right. Just because you don't know how to get to the end point, it doesn't mean you should not step off and start. Most people, if they tell you the truth about how their careers have gone or how their companies have gone, they tell you things in retrospect, "Here I am now, let me tell you how I got here, " and it can sound like such a straight path. It maybe even sounds like they knew from the very beginning how they were going to get here, when in reality, if you look back, it probably was very zig-zaggy. They might have had some completely different idea in mind, and something, in the process of solving one problem, came up that took you in a totally different direction and turned out to be your life's work. So, I'd say to take a risk and to be brave, and don't be afraid to fail, and don't take yourself out of the game. I think a lot of people are very hard on themselves, and they say, "Oh, I'm not good enough to do this, " or, "I'm not smart enough." Whatever thing they can think about themselves where they think it's a reason not to take a chance. But being an entrepreneur is very much about being part of a team, and you never know which pieces are going to come together to make that great puzzle. Not everybody is going to score a basket, and not everybody's going to be the best re-bounder. You need all different kinds of skill sets and personalities and passions, to come together in a mix that's going to make the whole enterprise work. I would just really encourage people. If you think you're interested, and you're enthusiastic and you're passionate, and you want to work hard, you should definitely take the leap, because it's just so much fun to be an entrepreneur and to be working in a start-up. Lee: That's really great advice, it's not a straight line. Sometimes you have to take the first step to see what the second step's even going to be. Katie: Oh, absolutely. Lee: I think once you understand that, you kind of go, "Yeah!" But it does take... it's a little scary sometimes. Katie: Sometimes you figure it out as you go, right? Lee: Yeah, exactly. We're really interested in understanding personal characteristics of entrepreneurs as well, Katie. We're curious about personal characteristics that you have that you think make you a successful entrepreneur. Katie: Well, one thing is I don't like to be told no. Lee: God, OK. [laughs] Katie: And in fact, when somebody tells me no, it makes me mad and I just think, "Oh, yeah? Well, let's see." Maybe that is not actually very flattering. [laughs] Larry: We want the truth. Lee: We want the truth. I mean I had an employee one time lean over to another new employee and say, "Don't say no." Whatever you do, she is not good with that word. Katie: I mean whenever you see something or somebody will say, "Oh, you can't do that. That can't be done." Well, come on. I mean there are some things fundamentally that cannot be done, but there are actually very few things that are like that. Most things are just really hard and I just love that some are very stubborn about that. If some... If I decide I think something can be done, boy, I just hard headed about it and I'll try and try and try very persistent manner. I think that is actually can be a very good quality when you have to be knocking down barriers. Most are pretty competitive like I said before, I like teamwork and I always played on teams. But I like to... You work hard to try to be the best and being part of a company is really no different. You work as a team and you want to make the best product that is out there. You want to find the best solution to a problem and you really won't take no for an answer, right? You are going to run into all kinds of problems that you can't predict. You have to be optimistic because you have to be able to sort of keep at it and keep at it and maybe it is the second time you try something you saw that maybe is the hundred time. But if you really believe that the solution is there somewhere then you find it. Lee: I changed my phraseology when I worked at Bell Labs. I never said no again when somebody asked me something. I hated it so much so I changed it to I don't know how to do that. Katie: Yet. Lee: Yet. Larry: All right, now, Katie with everything that you do and you're involved with everything else. How do you bring a balance into your personal and professional life? Katie: Oh, boy, I hope I bring a balance. [laughs] That's one of the hardest things that you have to do. I think because I have a family. I have kids and they are absolutely the most important thing in the world to me. But being a working mom or being a working parent means that you are spending a lot of time away from your kids and so finding that balance is hard. And especially I think in a start-up company, the hours are long and sometimes it's very unpredictable. As hard as you try to say, "Oh, I'm going to always make sure to map out X amount of time for home and X amount for work." It never really holds that way. I think thing about balancing is you are always tipping one way or another, right? There's always a correction that's in process. I think I try to be sensitive to that so that you make sure that you're keeping your priorities straight because sometimes, suck has the young people especially when they get started. It's like you are a lot more likely to get complaints at work if you don't show up, then you are going to get them at home if you don't show up. But that doesn't mean that you should always be giving into those. You really do have to work hard to keep that balance. I wish there was an easy answer and I wish I knew it but I seem to just sort of constantly befalling one way or the other and then trying to correct that and get it right. Larry: Just keep it up. Lee: Yeah. Yeah, we want that wireless stuff. Lucy: Yeah and speaking of that wireless stuff, you have achieved so much and your company has been going at this for a few years now. What's next for you? Where do you see Katie going? Katie: Oh, boy. Since I've already admitted that I didn't know, that I can only work back and tell you what my past is, I don't know. Right now, we are right in the middle of getting more WiTricity going. And so, my thoughts about the future for my career are... I mean I'm just all consumed right now with what I'm working on and part of the reason that is so exciting is because the technology can be applied so many places. I mean one of the things we say to people is think about it as replacing disposable batteries or extension cords. And if you think of all the places where those things are used, you can see that the applications are limitless and so we are just having so much fun learning about all the different areas where the technology could apply and building commercial systems. Even though, we've been at it for a couple of years now. The company, it's still really young in its life cycle and there are just so many exciting things happening. Right now, as far as I can see into the future, I will be working on this but we have to check in on a couple of years I guess and see. Lee: Well, so, I have a career path for you. Katie: OK. Lee: I do because I think we should have more computer sciences on Capitol Hill. So, just check back in a few years and we'll manage your campaign for when you run for Congress. Katie: I have to say I still get the urge every now and then when I see something going on. And I'd say, oh, I really wish I could do that but you only have so many hours in the day. There are only so many things you can tackle at once. Lee: Well, you will be really wealthy after this exit and then you can run for office. So, see? Larry: I love the idea. Lucy: So, Katie before we finish, I'm sure our listeners are dying to know when is the projected date for the first commercial application? Katie: Oh, yes. So, we are actually expecting that people will start to see this technology in commercial products by the end of this year beginning in next. Lee: Oh, my gosh. Wow. Lucy: Awesome. Lee: Shock beam. Awesome. Lucy: Well, Katie, thank you so much for talking with us. We really enjoyed this interview. I want to remind the listeners that they can find this at w3w3.com and NCWIT.org. Thanks so much. Please pass this on to other listeners who might be interested. Lee: Thanks Katie. Larry: Bye. Katie: Thank you very much guys. This has been really fun. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Katie HallInterview Summary: WiTricity is working on transferring electric power over distance, without wires. This groundbreaking technology, first invented at MIT, could soon power cell phones, game controllers, laptop computers, mobile robots, even electric vehicles, without ever plugging in a cord. Release Date: July 16, 2010Interview Subject: Katie HallInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 23:50

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Margaret Burd Founder, President, & CEO, Magpie, Inc. Date: June 1, 2010 Entrepreneurial Heroes Interview with Margaret Burd [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of the National Center for Woman and Information Technology, or NCWIT. Larry Nelson from w3w3.com is here today. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi. Yes, I'm really anxious for this interview. Lucy: Well, this is one of a series of interviews that we do with women who have started IT companies. Many of them are serial entrepreneurs in all different types of IT sectors. We ask them for their advice on being entrepreneurs and the pathways that they've taken to be successful. It's a great series. We've had a lot of interest in it. We have another great entrepreneur with us today, a good friend of ours and, I must say with great pride, a successful Colorado entrepreneur, Margaret Burd. Hi, Margaret. Margaret Burd: Hi. Thanks for having me. Lucy: Oh, our pleasure. Margaret is the founder and president and CEO of Magpie. They are a software company. They provide software services and development in the space of smart energy and telecommunications, which is where I know them from the very best. Lately, they've had even more exciting things going on, if you can imagine that, than smart energy. I mean, that's pretty exciting. But, also, there's a new spin-off trial called Magpie Health Care, which is doing some very cool work in giving hospital providers the kind of phone-based tools they need to locate either specialists or others very easily. And, they don't have to wait on the line. I'm sure I'm not doing it justice, but it's a new venture for Magpie. So, Margaret, tell us a bit about Magpie, either Magpie One or Magpie Two. [laughs] Larry: Yeah. Margaret: Well, Magpie One, Magpie Telecom as we used to call it. But, we've branched so far into other industries that we just say Magpie now. Magpie, we bought it in 2001. Which was a difficult year to start a business, with 9/11 happening two months after we started, and then telecom crashing. But, we survived all that. We have about between 50 and 60 people now doing software for a whole variety of companies. In the last year and a half, we went out and explored the whole smart energy, smart grid space. And, have found that there's a very huge market there, especially now with all the stimulus money that we could tap, with very much the same skills that we have from our telecom experience. That experience is very high-end: Bell Labs, educated people. What we learned about creating reliable, scalable and all viable networks of AT&T we can apply now to the smart grid. When you pick up the phone, you want to get dial tone. When you flip on the switch, you want your lights to come on. So, it's very similar to the ways you have to think about developing these networks. Then, as Lucy said, about two and a half years ago, we got the idea to go into health care. I started wandering around hospitals personally, and we ended up getting an idea for a product there. Lucy did a really good job explaining what that does. We help caregivers find other caregivers in really efficient ways. Because that is a product-based business, we have spun that into its own little company. And, I chair the board for that company. Lucy: So, see? She's not idle. Larry: No, it doesn't sound... Margaret: [laughs] We are pretty busy here. Lucy: Yeah. Larry: Well, that's fantastic. Margaret: But, that's really fun. You want your services business to be really busy. Lucy: Absolutely. Larry: Yeah. Well, so, you've got 60 people now. I think when I interviewed Wendy Bohling you had about 12. Margaret: [laughs] That could be true. We probably had a few more than that when you interviewed her. But, yeah, we started out. There were 10 partners, and eight of those partners are still here in our office in Westminster. We also have a little office in Durango whether the partner has eight or so people at any one time. So, we've been on a growth spurt here with this smart grid energy space. And, really constant growth this year. We've hired seven or eight people in the last couple of months. Larry: Well, Margaret, you're involved with so many different things. Of course, now I see the Bell Labs connection here with you and Lucy. But, how did you first get into technology. And, what technologies today do you think are really cool? Margaret: Well, actually, I probably come to technology in a weird way. Because my first career, I was teaching math and science and coaching lots of different sports in public schools in Missouri. I had done that for about nine years. In '83, I was still making $15,000 a year. I was pretty bored with that whole teaching thing, too. So, I started looking around for what I wanted to do next. And, it just so happened that the University of Kansas let you get into their computer science master's program if you had a math degree. I applied, and they accepted, and ended up with my master's in computer science. Right out of school, I got an offer from Bell Labs and ended up in Denver. And, that's how I got into technology. Larry: Wow. Margaret: It was kind of a whim. I showed a little aptitude when I got to KU. So, it all... It was an amazing turn of events in my life, I can just say that. And, probably just because. It's one of those things that just happens. In terms of cool, my guys, if they were on the phone, they would be talking about a bunch of cool technologies that they love. But, you know, to me it's more about figuring out where to go next in verticals and what technologies we can apply. So, I think less about them being cool, actually. But, every day when I pull out my iPhone, I think that's cool. I'm still thinking the iPhone is cool. So, I'm probably not the best person to talk to about cool. But, the cool part about the iPhone is that all these people all over the world can wake up in the morning. And, in their pajamas, create an application that somebody else somewhere else in the world is going to use via that device. And, then, I could go off to the other. In torrent, we use a lot of open source software. And, we contribute to open source. I think that's another one of those places where we have involved community in the creation of really cool things. So, that I think is really cool. Lucy: Well, it is pretty fascinating. When you think back 30 years what we were doing with computer science. And, now, you think that, in fact, you can create this application and it just goes everywhere in the world. It is amazing, and I think it still deserves some awe. [laughs] Larry: Yeah. Margaret: Well, I am awed almost every day by something there, yeah. Lucy: I think that, that deserves some awe. Margaret: Yeah. Lucy: So, Margaret, I certainly knew you when we were both at Bell Labs. Then you took off and you became an entrepreneur. Why did you do that? Margaret: Well, that was pretty much because Luce had told me... Luce and I had ended up in a department of about 70 people. And, I had another 30 at Nice, France. And, we were really cooking along and having a great time building cool mobile Internet applications. This is in 2000 so that was well before those were cool. And doing some applications for AT&T. But we'd also--we'd spent a lot of time getting our department to really develop software in innovative ways and in different team ways, than had been used in the past. And we could actually show that we were improving our productivity all the time and actually had measures for productivity. We were really cooking along and everybody really liked each other, it was like this love fest in my department. I mean, we really cared about each other. And so, then Lucent told me that I should lay everybody off. And so I did, and fired myself. And we had always joked in my department, that if things got too bad, we would start our own company. And, well, things were pretty bad when you have to lay everybody off. So, ten of us out of that started Magpie. And so, I kind of just wandered into being an entrepreneur, as well. But it's been tremendously great. So things happen. Larry: Wow, that's... Margaret: You probably listen to this and think that everything just happens to me. Lucy: Oh, no. No, no. [laughter] Margaret: But it is kind of... When you get into certain situations, things happen and you can react to them and go forth and do great things, or you can not. So I really think the founders at Magpie chose a path that is pretty cool. Larry: Well, Margaret, along the way, did you have a mentor, did you have other people who served maybe as role models? In fact, who influenced and supported you in your career path? Margaret: Oh man, there's been so many. Well, one even--well, Lucy. When I look at you leaving there and starting this really great foundation and going out and raising the money you needed to do that. And to do something that is totally needed in the world, that's really inspiring to me, and it has been inspiring to me. So, I'll just say that. I learned specific things from a whole bunch of different people. I had this--which Lucy knows well--Sally Werner was my boss for some time at Lucent. And there, she really taught me about how to manage people and how to do that in a way that is just really cool. And so, I learned a ton by working for her. There was another VP there, that I learned how you celebrate success. And how you not only do that, but how you communicate with large groups of people that work for you. So it's a totally important thing, especially when you're an entrepreneur, I might add. I learned about organization development from a consultant, Susan Carabello, who's consulted with me through most of my career, actually; and learned what you have to do to create organizations that really work. And I learned about sales and marketing from another really good friend of mine, Robin Wright. And I still call her and ask her for her advice on paths that we may be taking here at Magpie, and she consults with us. And then, I think... But the most important thing to being an entrepreneur I actually learned from my mom and my grandmother. And they worked really hard and they never gave up. And I think, those are the two things, that to be a great entrepreneur, you have to get. Larry: Wonderful. Lucy: Absolutely. I think it leads to another question around the personal characteristics, you know, that you have as an entrepreneur. Because you have worked hard and you've never given up, and you also have looked at opportunities to really take them where they could go. You know, and that's a very observant thing for people to do, to be that thoughtful about what life puts right in front of you right where you can take it. So what other words would you use to describe yourself as an entrepreneur? Margaret: I'm very optimistic. And, you know, as I've talked to a lot of other entrepreneurs, I think often they are really an optimistic person. So I don't think I'm rare in that regard, at all, and I think you have to be. And that helps you see those things also. And it also can be a real detriment. You know, you have your rosy glasses on all the time and don't know how to actually look at a new idea or look at a new plan, or whatever. So I'm not saying... But you have to kind of think you can do things. You know what I mean? And that's that optimism. I think for me, especially in the services business, but probably true for lots of small businesses, it seems to be a good entrepreneur, you really have to like people. And you have to like helping people and you have to enjoy going out and meeting people. And just walking up and introducing yourself to someone. There's something about just enjoying being around new people and talking to them about what they've got going on, and I really like that. Probably most important in this business too, though, has been you have to... I think I'm good and I'm pretty creative in my problem solving abilities. I don't mind solving problems. A problem is a problem, it's just a thing to be solved today. And I think I'm creative in how I can do that. Not that other people aren't just as creative, but I think it adds a skill for being... When you are an entrepreneur, you're going to be hit with all these issues, all the time. And so, figuring out how to do them in a way that you can afford, in a way that's maybe going to work and, you know, so forth, is pretty important. And then, I think lastly, I really like to start things. That initial forming of the idea and storming through understanding what you're going to do. I really like that part of the whole process. So... Larry: Well, you know, one of the things we have to ask is that, if you were sitting down right now at a table with a person who was going to become an entrepreneur, what advice would you give them? Margaret: Well, first of all, I'd say it's really hard so you really have to want it. It's really risky and most small businesses fail, so you really have to want it. [laughter] And it's going to take a lot of work. But if you really want it, it's so worth doing. And I'd tell them to go find a mentor, someone that they can sit with. And sometimes you have to pay for that and sometimes you can get that for free. So, early on, I always got that for free. But there's also groups out there, CEO groups, that can really be helpful. And I've been a member of Renaissance Executive Forums, one of those groups, for a long time now. And, totally helpful, because you get to bounce your ideas and problems and everything else off a bunch of people that all have those same problems. So, I think you need that. And then, I think really think about how you're going to interface with your partners, if you're going to have partners in your business. And know that that relationship all changes as you go through the different stages of your company and have that legally set up so that you can make changes that make sense in easy ways, that just recognize that people change. Larry: That's a great list. Lucy: It certainly is a great list. And I have to say that Margaret was being modest when she was talking about her personal characteristics. I mean, Margaret is really a great leader of technologists. We rarely talk about that on this interview series. But because your tech companies, obviously... Our founders and CEO's are leading engineers, a lot of them, and that's a special skill set. Margaret: Well, thank you for saying that. I think--well, I love engineers, first of all. But they are an interesting sort that--you know--that you have to figure out how to lead along. So, thank you for saying that. Lucy: Yeah, it's always been an interesting thing. Larry writes books and maybe one day he can write a book about leading engineers. Larry: Oh. Margaret: That would be a great idea. Lucy: I think that would be a great book, wouldn't it? Margaret: Yeah, I think there's several million people that could use one. Lucy: So, you've given us probably one story about a tough part in your career that ended up where you fired yourself and started Magpie. What's another tough thing you've had to do in your career? Margaret: It's been all kinds of places at Magpie, where you get to spots where all your management team, in my case at the time they were partners, and were in these difficult situations where you have to really--maybe an example would be you have to spend a bunch of money. And it's really hard at the time, because you don't have the money to spend. But if you're going to move to the next step, you have to like go get that money, somewhere. And in our case, we were bootstrapping everything. I was taking the profits of their business to go off and do these new things, like the energy practice. That was--you know, people think, "Oh, you go start a new energy practice." But we spent a whole person's time, for over a year, figuring out how to approach that market and what software was required in that market, and actually having conversations with companies in that market. So, you know, it's a big investment for a small company to do things like that. And I think that the hard times had been in convincing your partners, for example, that that's a great thing to do. So, they've been mostly around that. Other hard times, I have trouble even really thinking about them, Lucy. Because they're not... I don't think about them as hard times. I think about--oh, yeah, that was a problem time. Last year, for example: 2009 was... I'm so glad we're through it. Lucy: Yeah, I know. Margaret: Everything was hard. Everything we were bidding on was--there were, you know, five companies bidding against us. And there wasn't very much to bid on and it was really hard. And we ended up having a flat year which was not very--that was great. In fact, I say that last year was the new great. But it's so much different now, this year. So, I mean, that was really a hard year, but it's just another problem in business that you kind of work through. I don't have lots of examples where I think, "Oh, that was something I really figured out how to work through and I should tell people." Lucy: Yeah. Margaret: There all kind of just--it's day to day problems. You know what I mean? Larry: Yeah. Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. Margaret: So I don't have great examples there. Larry: Well, that's--you know, starting a company in 2001, "Hi-Tech", and then, living through 2009, you're doing fantastic. Lucy: 2009 was just an angry year. Larry: Yeah, really. Lucy: I mean, it was just an angry year. It was just one of those years, that it was time to be over. Larry: Yeah. Margaret: Oh, it was just icky the whole time. Lucy: Yeah, I know. Margaret: And '02, that was really a difficult year. But, you know, when you're starting a business, I mean, you have expectations about when you're going to finally get some customers. But, beyond that, you know it's going to be hard. And so, what we learned out of that--and we always learn something out of our hard times, by the way--we learned how to do cash-flow management in great detail. And last year, I think we learned that in times like that, you have to hone your sales processes to really go after the small set of customers that are out there. And we did that. And now, in this year, we are cooking along with really great new processes and with new sales people, that really understand how to do that and with sales, there's lots of really good things that happen out of those hard times, if you make it through them. Lucy: Absolutely. Larry: Wow. You know, with all the things that you're doing, and you're expanding into new silos, and everything that you're doing in your career, how do you bring balance into your personal and your professional lives? Margaret: Balance is an interesting word. Well, I have a wonderful life partner that I love to vacation and see the world with and enjoy theater with, and exercise with, and so forth. So, I make time for those things. And I really like to go to the beach, so I go. And this may sound counter-intuitive, but I do a lot of non-profit work. So I'm on several non-profit boards and I raise a lot of money for those causes. And that is a lot of extra work, but then it also brings balance, because you're out actually giving back to people that really need your help. So that always feels really good, even though it makes me stay up way too late. Lucy: Yeah. Margaret: And then, I really like to ride my bicycle. And so, I make time, at least on the weekends, to do some longer rides. And I put my iTunes in my ears, and I've pretty much got balance then I would say. Larry: Well, just so you don't swim and bike. Lucy: Especially on your bike. Larry: Yeah, right. Lucy: You'd better have balance on your bike. Larry: Yeah, yeah. Margaret: Yeah, yeah. Oh, good point! Lucy: Yeah. If no other time, you need to balance on your bike. Margaret: That's right. Lucy: So Margaret, tell us what's next for you. You've done a lot, you've accomplished a lot, you've got some exciting new applications that you're working on and at least two companies. What's next? Margaret: Well, obviously, or maybe it's not obvious, but I really want to see where I can take those Magpie companies in the next probably two, three, four years. And I think in the health care business, we are on the edge of real greatness in terms of the application we're providing and what it's looking like in the markets. So I really want to stay around, at least as chair of that board, and see where we can take that. And then, in the services business, this energy thing is really important to the whole world, so it feels like I want to stay around and do that for a while, too. And then, after that though, I think--I've got this vision of doing a lot of work for non-profits, but also being able at that time to fund them, in ways that are greater than what I can do now. So I want to do that. And then, there's a whole bunch of South Pacific islands and beaches that I haven't... Lucy: Yeah, no. They sure beat the... Margaret: ...hung around. So I want to do that, too. Lucy: They sure beat the beach in Colorado, don't they? Larry: Yeah, yeah. Margaret: Yeah, yeah. Colorado's a great place. But without the beach, I have to... Lucy: There's no... Margaret: ...vacation other places. Lucy: There's no beach. Margaret: Yeah. Lucy: Yeah. Larry: Yeah, just don't ride your bike while you're swimming. OK? Margaret: [laughs] Well, you know, on all those islands a bike is pretty good transportation. Really. Larry: Yeah. Margaret: Yeah. But that's what I've got in mind, pretty much to follow on with some more and greater non-profit work. Lucy: Well, you know, that's very--you are very philanthropic and a very giving person and just a wonderful member of our community here in Colorado. So, we really want to thank you for talking to us. We've enjoyed chatting with you. And I want to remind listeners where they can find this podcast: you can find it at w3w3.com, Internet radio. Larry: You betcha! Lucy: And also, ncwit.org. Thank you, Margaret! Margaret: Oh, I appreciate the time and really enjoyed chatting with you guys. Larry: Alright. Lucy: Thank you. Larry: Same here, we'll see you soon! Lucy: See you soon! Margaret: See you! Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Margaret BurdInterview Summary: Margaret Burd was working at Lucent in 2000 when the tech bubble burst, and she was forced to lay off herself and her entire department. Since she and her team members were "really cookin' along" at the time, doing high-quality, innovative work, she decided she'd just start a company and hire them back. Release Date: June 1, 2010Interview Subject: Margaret BurdInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 21:12

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with ML Mackey CEO and Co-founder, Beacon Interactive Systems Date: May 10, 2010 Entrepreneurial Heroes Interview with ML Mackey [music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology, or NCWIT. With me is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hi, I'm happy to be here. Lucy: Absolutely. We have this great interview series with women who have started IT companies, many of them multiple companies, across all different sectors. Today, I'm really excited because our interview is going to be with a woman who has worked in both the private and the public sector. I don't really think we've talked to anybody who has worked with the government in the same way that our guest has worked with. So, today, we're talking to ML Mackey who is the CEO and Co-founder of Beacon Interactive Systems. I was really interested in Beacon because it does the workflow kind of things. If you look at their history with private industry, things around customer service and email management and great companies that they've worked with like IBM and MetLife and others. ML, then, that company into working in the government sector working on the performance of its workforce. So, the DOD. And, I'm thinking, oh, that's something taxpayers should really dig, you know? [laughs] Larry: [laughs] Lucy: Performance management of the federal sector. So, welcome ML. We're glad you could join us. ML Mackey: Thanks. Thanks for having me. Lucy: So, first of all, why don't you just give us a little bit of an update on what Beacon's up to. ML: Well, we're a 16-year-old company. We provide software to our customers that helps them get their work done easier and easier, regardless of what that work is. Like you said, we did private sector. And, now, we're doing the public sector. It's a fascinating place to be right now in the federal sector, and specifically in the DOD, where we work. It is kind of a bold statement, but we say to some of our friends we're trying to help the federal government perform more efficiently. [laughs] Lucy: [laughs] Well, I shouldn't laugh, I mean... ML: How's that for a book? Larry: Please. Lucy: [laughs] I was going to say, please! Larry: It has to work. Lucy: Yeah, please do. [laughs] Please do. ML: Let's hope we're successful. And, a very small piece of that, I must say. But, it's kind of fun. Right now we are mainly selling to the Department of Defense. We sell primarily to the U.S. Navy. We have two products that we sell to them. One is in the equipment maintenance space, and it's called TURBOWORK. It's all about helping the maintainers perform equipment maintenance more efficiently and effectively. The second product we have stemmed out of that work. It's a collaborative program management software called T3, the Technology Transition Tool. It's used by the Navy to better manage their portfolio of R&D investments. Lucy: Well, you're absolutely right. There's so much going on in the public sector these days, especially with technology. I was just reading about it. There's an 80-billion-dollar-a-year budget... Larry: [laughs] Lucy: ...in the federal government for technology spent, which is just an amazing amount of money. So, I'm glad you're working to make sure it's spent more efficiently. Larry: We want you to succeed. ML: [laughs] Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. So, ML, why don't you tell our listeners a bit about how you first got into technology and where you see some of the hot technologies today. ML: You know, I thought about this question a little bit beforehand. And, I thought what would I tell them? I wanted to say something very philosophical and profound and deep. And, I'll tell you what, I got into technology because I really wanted to make money. [laughs] Lucy: That's a good reason. Larry: Yeah. Yeah. ML: I was pretty sure that teaching ballet, which I loved doing, wasn't going to be the lifestyle that I wanted to live. So, I said I think I'd like to be able to be independent. So, I applied for a scholarship in electrical engineering because they gave the most electrical engineering scholarships out. I'm already convinced I knew what electrical engineering was when I applied for it. Turned out I got the scholarship. It also turned out quite luckily for me that I really enjoyed what I was learning about. Engineering is a fascinating profession. Understanding what makes things work and how to understand science and figure out how to apply it to real-world needs is a fun and exciting place to be. So, I stumbled upon the place that I needed to be and was happy to be there. Larry: That's great. ML: I got into technology. Larry: I like that. I like that. ML: I like to think it was more purposeful. It was just someone watching out for me, you know? So, that worked out really well. Did a lot of hardware design, some software design. Got into running a business, very much an engineering kind of approach to how we run a business and how we started it. The technologies that I think are cool right now. I think software is a fascinating area to be in. And, I think the convergence of information from both physical resources as well as people is fascinating. I think there's a lot of work to being done with sensors that we've only tapped the beginning usefulness and productivity from that I just think is fascinating. And, I think understanding that in terms of how it integrates with the real world and how people work and interface with that information is really what drives our company. Larry: Well, that's fantastic. ML, having the public sector background, I have to ask what is it about being an entrepreneur that drew you there? And, what makes you tick? ML: I think the reason that I'm an entrepreneur, and I would say the same thing for my partner. The reason we started a business is we said we like to do things. We like to make things happen. We like to create things. We like to be around creative and smart people. And, we like to make an impact with what we're doing. I think we also wanted to make money, too. [laughter] ML: So, it seemed like starting a company was a great combination for all of these things. I think what makes me tick now about being an entrepreneur is the adrenalin, is the challenge, is the opportunity, is the creativity. It's the great people I get to work with at my company. It's the interesting customers that we get to work with. It's never dull. It's always something interesting and new. And, the ability to help guide that and stay true to finding interesting things and doing meaningful work is a real driver. Lucy: Along the way on your entrepreneurial journey, oftentimes we find people have been influenced by others. Sometimes we call them mentors. Or, sometimes we call them role models. Or, sometimes they're co-founders or what have you. What can you tell our listeners about the particular people that influenced you? ML: Well, I can tell you I'm blessed and totally lucky to have found a brilliant mentor for me in the last, I'd say, eight or nine years who worked with me. A tremendously smart, intelligent woman who was interested in sharing what she knew and helping me grow into being a better businesswoman. That was a real benefit, and I hope that every young woman can find someone like I found in Ruth. So, that was a benefit. I found her just by working together and us clicking and finding our way to each other. It's turned into a very nice personal relationship as well. I have to say that I'm not sure that I had women role models until that point. There was occasionally someone that I saw here, occasionally someone that I saw there. I think what helped me specifically was that there wasn't a preconceived set of notions or ideas about how business works or what it takes to be a business person. I know my partner, he practiced his signature from the time he was five years old because he knew he was going to be a businessman like his dad. So, I think he had a role model that he would aspire to. I think I just naturally gravitated to this profession. But, anything that we the community can do to put role models out for our kids is a great thing. It's interesting to be able to see the kinds of experiences that you could have. The kinds of choices that you can make in defining what your career will be. Lucy: I have two sons, and they've been practicing their signatures like their father. And, you can't read any of them anyway. Larry: [laughs] Very good. Lucy: Yeah, they look like little squiggly lines to me. ML: My daughter said to me, "Mommy, I think Daddy" -- my husband is my business partner -- "I think Daddy only has one letter when he does his signature. The rest is just a line." Lucy: [laughs] ML: I said oh, he practiced that, honey. [laughter] Lucy: I know, it's true. And, just as an offhand remark, it seems like I've often wanted to do some research on this issue of signatures, but that's for another day. Larry: Yeah, really. ML: There's a whole science to that actually. Lucy: Yeah, to be sure. Larry: I have four daughters, and half of them are... Lucy: Do they practice their signatures? Larry: I don't know if they did. I think so because two of them it's very readable and looks really gorgeous. The other ones are messy like mine. So, oh well. Lucy: Oh, well. Larry: Now, with all the things you've been through, ML, and the successes and everything else, what is the toughest thing that you've ever had to do in your career? ML: Some people might look at my career and say the toughest thing I had to do was quit my very interesting, well-payed job in order to start the company. Or, you may look at signing leases or some of the difficult things of stepping into a new space and finding a new market. But, I have to tell you, by far the most... All those things were fun, by the way, and interesting and exciting. The thing that stands out among all of our experiences as the most challenging was surviving the economic downturn in the software industry in the 2000 to 2001 time frame. That was just a terrible, traumatic and very difficult time to get through that, I have to say, I'm very pleased we are on the other side of. And, I'm going to find some wood quickly to knock on. That was difficult for a variety of reasons. I think primarily the reason that was so difficult for an entrepreneur like myself is that there was so much that was out of my control. It was so drastically bad, and there was such a long period where we weren't able to feel successful. In hindsight, there were many things that we were doing that were wildly successful and allowed us to maintain, and then to grow, the value of our company again and grow the IP and grow the team back up. But, that was a really difficult time. Having said that, I think every business is going to go through something difficult. So, now I know we've been through it and know some of the steps and some of the things I'd do again if we were in a difficult spot and some of the things that I wouldn't do again. [laughs] Net-net it's all positive. But, that was by far the most challenging experience we had. Lucy: In fact, those tough times, they give you sort of a second kind of intuition, and in terms of looking to the future, too. You might spot things sooner. That was a tough time... Larry: Yeah, it was. Lucy: ...early 2000. That was tough. Larry: We felt the pain, too. ML: We bootstrapped our company. We started in a little rent-controlled apartment on Beacon Street in Coolidge Corner Brookline here in Massachusetts. So, we never lived large when we started. We knew how to bootstrap and we knew how to be lean. And, it still was just a really difficult time. But, you get through something like that, and you appreciate what you have moving forward. Every customer is good news. Every contract is good news. And, they're especially sweet now for us. Lucy: Exactly. And, I think that's great advice for any entrepreneur to hear. ML, I know you mentioned you do work in STEM education. You're very interested in issues related to science, technology, engineering and math. So, as it relates to entrepreneurship, if you were sitting here with a young person and giving them advice about being an entrepreneur, what would you tell them? ML: There are two things that I would say are the most important things to tell someone who's thinking about starting their own business. The first is be true to yourself. Be true to what you like to do. [laughs] I can remember, I was graduating from school and I thought oh, I'm an electrical engineer. This is great. I'm going to do electrical engineering. I don't have to figure something out. Then I got closer to graduating and I went, oh my God! What does an electrical engineer do? [laughter] ML: [laughs] And, I talked to a friend of mine who was wildly successful, founded a few companies down in California and just really doing fantastic. I said hey, Andy, how do you get a job? Both my parents were public school teachers. He said, well, you find what you like to do and then you do that. And I was like, come on. Seriously, how do you get a job? [laughs] That's not really going to help me. In hindsight, it was one of the best pieces of advice that I've gotten in my career. And, one that I would highly recommend for anyone thinking of doing something in entrepreneurship. Or, even just as they're plotting their own individual career path. And, that is find what you like to do and what drives you. For example, I like technology. I really like knowing how things work and making new things. I also like people. I'm the kind of person that likes to go to a party full of new people and understand who's there, get to know them, see how they know each other. I like going into customers and understanding how they get their work done. So, we build collaborative software. It's technology about how people work together. My partner likes technology and he also likes business and clarity in business and really making the right value happen from your business. So, our collaborative software systems are not social networking systems. They're collaborative software systems that help you get your work done. So that, one, you can get it done more efficiently, and two, you know what's going on in your organization. So, we stayed true to what our core values are and what our expertise is while we shifted markets from private sector to the public sector. Which was precipitated by the 2002, 2001 downturn in the industry, as I talked about. We stayed true to what our core expertise was. And, we found a way to understand where the federal money would go to small businesses and how to do research and how to get connected into our Department of Defense customers. There were quite a few solicitations of them, but we stayed true to what our expertise was and what we'd be able to accomplish. And, it's become very successful in the process. Lucy: I think that's great. ML: Stay true to what you do. Lucy: Exactly. And that's great advice. It kind of leads me to a follow-up question around just some words you might use to describe yourself. What characteristics do you believe make you a successful entrepreneur? ML: So I'm going to give you the main word and then I'm going to track back to one other thing. Because I've done a disservice to anyone listening. The second and possibly most important that you have to learn as an entrepreneur that I would tell a young person is learn to sell. Learn how to sell. Learn how to sell. Learn how to sell. Don't say, I have a good quality, I have a good product, I can run a company. All of that doesn't matter if you can't sell your product to a customer. So I wanted to close off that last piece and make sure there are two things. One, stay true to yourself. And two, learn how to sell. And the word that I would give you to this question that you just asked me about what are the characteristics of a successful entrepreneur or what has been successful for me is tenacity. You've got to be persistent. You got to choose your path. You got to say this is what I want to accomplish and I'm going to just stay to it. I'm going to approach it from different vectors if I can't accomplish the direction I'm going in. But you've got to be tenacious. Larry: Well you've got a couple of children. You're growing a business. You're doing all kinds of really neat things. How do you ML, bring balance to your personal and professional lives? ML: You know that's an interesting question. So I'll sort of answer it in two different ways. One, I was given an award by an organization up here and I was speaking to all of the entrepreneurial characteristics, and I said to the group, and I said of all these characteristics I've told you about being entrepreneurial, by far the most entrepreneurial venture that my partner, and I have done is parent our two small children. So family life pulls us...I want to use the word balance, but I don't know that balance is the word that really fits. So the second part of my answer to your question it's more about work-life integration. And balance implies cordoning off. And one place I do work and one place I do home and one place I do, oh, God forbid, a hobby. Someday maybe I'll get to that. Larry: [laughs] ML: Part of that, it's more about how you integrate all the facets of who you are so they flow and overlap well with each other. So, my children know the office space but they don't spend too much time here. My kids' friends know that we have a company and understand that sometimes when we've made a sale, oh, good, we just sold to the navy. We just sold software to every ship in the navy. And my kids driving home from school, and their friends went, oh, that's so cool. So that's about an integration without a line that's tough and hard between the two spaces. But it's a continuous balancing act, I should use the word of that integration. Lucy: Well we hear that from a number of successful entrepreneurs. That in fact integration is a better word than balance. I personally believe it is as well. Having raised two kids and being a corporate executive is exactly the same thing. There's no hard line in the sand. I think that's important. ML: You know what I think is fascinating around companies as well is they are starting to understand that in terms of flex time and hours, and commitments, and how you deliver upon your professional commitments as well. Which I just think is a fascinating new area and we'll see some changes in the next five to 10 years. Lucy: I think so too, and we're seeing some data with our work here at NCWIT, around these issues being really important to men and women. That they have the ability to have this kind of work and personal life integration if you will. An certainly in the technology space, one would like to hope that it would be possible. For sure. Maybe using some ML software. Larry: What an idea. What an idea. Lucy: [laughs] What an idea. So ML, you've really achieve a lot. What's next for you? What can you tell our listeners? What do you see coming down the road? ML: More of the same. The spinning out other companies. Going in different directions. It's just fun seeing the products you've created. They sort of take on a life of their own. So then its how do you leverage them that momentum and how do you grow that into something interesting. Growing our team is on our future. That's really quite interesting as well too. It's great to come to work everyday and have a group that's interested in what they're doing and engaged and energetic about what they're accomplishing. So I think just more of the same. Lucy: I have sort of an off the cuff question just to end in. ML: Oh, God. Lucy: Of course. Just to kind of end the interview with. Like if you were giving advice since you are one of our very few interviews about working with the public sector to other entrepreneurs that might want to become involved with the public sector, what would that be? ML: The best advice I could give anyone looking to get involved in the public sector that has not been in the public sector is to have a healthy respect for how different the business is. We completely revamped how we operate our business, how we mange our business, how you engage your customers. I would suggest that...what was the number you gave at the beginning of the interview on federal technologies? Lucy: Eighty billion. Eighty billion dollars a year in IT spent. ML: Yeah, and people look at that number and go oh wow, all I have to do is get a piece of that. There are stunning roadblocks to knowing how to work with the federal government. And just as simple as, which is not simple at all, of how do you get under contract? So, you have a solution, you have a perspective buyer, you have funds available. How do they even get that to you? So there are a lot of roadblocks there, none obvious. Having said that, there's a tremendous opportunity to be innovative and to leverage commercial sector expertise in innovative ways for what has been a very traditional business area. I'm speaking specifically in the software now. There's a lot of opportunity there to really drive value and do something important there. So I would say to anyone, the advice I would give is absolutely look into it. It's a tremendous capability. There's a lot of R&D as well as straight product sales that are possible with the federal government. But just have a real healthy respect for that it is not what you've known in the private sector. And to pay attention to characteristics and different business models. Lucy: That's great advice. Larry: It is. Lucy: I think our listeners will appreciate that. I know we've seen it from the non profit side, working with the government is very different than our work with corporations for example. Very, very different. ML: Find some of just non intuitive. Lucy: Yep. Totally. Really, thank you for your time. We really do appreciate it. And I wanted to remind listeners where they can find this interview. At w3w3.com. And also ncwit.org. Larry: Perfect. Lucy: Alright. Thank you, ML. Larry: ML, thank you so much. ML: Thank you. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: ML MackeyInterview Summary: Explaining why she became an entrepreneur, ML Mackey says, "My partner and I like to do things, we like to make things happen, we like create things and be around smart creative people and we want to make an impact with what we are doing. It seemed like starting a company was a great combination for all these things." Release Date: May 10, 2010Interview Subject: ML MackeyInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 20:05

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Candace Fleming CEO and Co-founder, Crimson Hexagon Date: April 19, 2010 Entrepreneurial Heroes Interview with Candace Fleming [music] Lee: Hi, this is Lee Kennedy. I am a board member for the National Center for Women and Information Technology, or NCWIT, and I'm also the CEO of Boulder Search. This is part of a series of interviews that we are having with fabulous entrepreneurs, they are women who have started IT companies in a variety of sectors, all of whom have just fabulous stories to tell us about being entrepreneurs, and with me today is Larry Nelson from W3W3. Hey Larry. Larry Nelson: I'm very happy to be here, and this is a wonderful so reason and you make sure you pass these interviews along to others that you know would be interested and they can give it here at NCWIT.org or W3W3.com. Lee: Great, and I also have Lucy Sanders, who is the CEO of NCWIT. Hi Lucy. Lucy Sanders: Hello. Lee: Great to have you. Well, and just to get right to it, we are interviewing Candace Fleming. Candace is the CEO and co-founder of Crimson Hexagon. Crimson Hexagon's technology analyzes the vast social Internet, so blog posts, forum messages, tweets et cetera, and it's done by identifying statistical patterns in the words used to express opinions on different topics. And the product is called Foxtrot, and it helps you to develop your listening approach to many different Internet channels. So without further ado, I would love to introduce Candace, and have her tell us a little bit about her background and experience. Candace, welcome. Candace Fleming: Thank you, it is great to be here, I am excited about this opportunity to share. Lee: Well, if you could tell us just little bit about Crimson Hexagon, that would be great. Candace: At a very high level, what Crimson Hexagon does is, we have technology that goes out and find millions and millions of blogs and forums and tweets, product reviews and things that are probably available on Facebook, and reads them all everyday and can summarize opinions that are being expressed. So in some ways it's a little bit like an automatic opinion poll, but you are not actually asking a poll question because you are really just harvesting values from conversations that are already happening. Lee: Wow. Candace: And we are a 15% company based here in Boston. Lee: So basically, you have got bots or robots that go out and hit all of these different social sites and pull back the data and then analyze it, is that kind of a nutshell for our novice technology listeners? [laughter] Candace: It is that idea where we get data from lot of different sources, we license some data streams, we also do our own call link, but it is not so much the data collection that is special about what we do, it is really in the content analysis of what we do. So if you imagine, I think a lot of your listeners are familiar with Google Alert, were you can very efficiently and very quickly use keywords, and every day multiple times a day, you will get an email in your in-box with the links to mention of those words. But the problem is, when you start to build a large brand or you have a large company, there are so many mentions that it is nearly impossible to stay on top of them. We end up speaking with marketers and brand managers or PR agencies who sit down with a list of 30,000 links and they say, "How do I make meaning out of all this?" So our technology really allows you... It quantifies for you in that list of 30,000 links, what percentage of people are saying they like a specific feature of your product or what percent of people are saying they actually like your competitor's product better or really getting down to the opinions of what's being said. Lee: So we could use it to figure out what people are saying about Larry. Larry: Uh oh. Candace: Exactly. That's right. Larry: That's a different dinner gig. Lee: I'm liking this more and more. Candace: The only limitation is that people have to actually be talking about the topic. Lee: Oh don't worry, we've got plenty of info, don't worry. Lucy: So Candace, back to you. We'd love to hear about how you first got into technology. Candace: Ever since I was little, I have been noticing how technology improves our lives every day. My dad was an electrical engineering professor, and so we were always talking about science and technology and new innovations and seeing how the world progressed. And so, I've been thinking about it from a very early age, and went on to get an engineering degree in college and have always done work in my professional career around technology and algorithms and the application of technology. Larry: Oh. Lucy: So as a little add on, what technologies do you think are cool today? Candace: Well, of course our technology. Lee: Of course, you want a list. Candace: I could be honest, that I'm very biased about that. Actually I think there are a couple of things, I think there are some really neat consumer electronics coming out like they talk about 3-D TV or the Nexus One phone. But even maybe a little bit less mainstream, I heard about a technology that a Harvard biologist named Pete Gergen developed in microbial fuel cells, and it sounds like a lot of big words, but essentially what he's developed is a way to harness energy as microbes that decompose organic matter. And what that means is you can basically take a bucket of trash, stick one of his apparati into it and have light, or have enough to charge a cell phone. Stuff like that, if you think about the implications of that for third world countries or differences parts of our lives, I think it's incredible. So there's a lot of good stuff laying around. Larry: Yeah. Wow. I'm ordering one of each. Candace, let me ask this. What is it about being an entrepreneur that turns you on? Talk about that. Candace: I think for me it was all about this particular opportunity. I didn't set out to one day start a company of my own necessarily, and so in this instance I saw a huge opportunity that was so exciting that I wanted to literally drop everything and get this off the ground. I think in general, nothing is more exciting for me than pulling together a team and seeing what we can collectively accomplish. And I think in small companies, you really can see the impact of that. Where I walk into our conference room for a team meeting, and a year and a half ago these people didn't even know each other, and now they're doing things for big brands and big name companies, and really doing things that even the people on their team never knew they could accomplish. Lee: Well and forming those teams and forming something from nothing is really an exciting part of entrepreneurship. Now Candace, you mentioned that your father from a very early age was talking about technology, talking about engineering, and we find that that's very typical, especially for women. That their father or mother played a role in their early sort of sense of technology. Can you tell us a bit more about who else influenced or supported you in your career paths, or role models or mentors? Candace: So I would have to say that number one on that list is actually my husband. Lee: Yay husbands! Lucy: Yay! Candace: His name is Lee Fleming. And you know I was at a breakfast on Friday and there was a female entrepreneur who said, "Well you know, everyone knows the saying 'Behind every good man is a good woman,'" and I say the exact opposite is true as well, especially as it applies to start-ups. Behind every entrepreneur, especially if it's one who is a family, there's got to be a supportive spouse there." And so I think my husband wanted me to do this even more than I did. And so even before day one, when I heard about this opportunity, he's been helping me every step of the way. Quite literally, because he happens to be a professor at Harvard Business School, and he teaches a class on commercializing technologies and innovations, so I get some good coaching over the dinner table. Lucy: That's pretty handy! Candace: Very handy! Other than my parents, of course, who have been so supportive along the way, my co-founder, actually, who is also a professor at Harvard, his name is Gary King. He's the one who invented the algorithms that we've commercialized. So, from day one, he has said, "I think you're the one who should grow this company, I think you can make this happen and I want to work with you to do this." So having someone who believes in you so completely, and stands by you every step of the way, and is so fantastic to work with is a great gift. Lucy: That is really exciting. Lee: I downloaded his paper to read. Candace: Did you read it? Lee: Not yet, it was a little long for me, but I downloaded it for plane reading. Lucy: We just had interviewed somebody about advisory boards, and I'm thinking you've got these great built-in advisory boards. So to switch topics just a smidge from all these wonderful things, what's the toughest thing you've had to do in your career? Candace: It's actually what I'm doing now, but more specifically, starting and growing a successful company. Basically, in 2008 which is when we had the worst economic meltdown since the Depression, is by far the hardest thing that I've ever had to do. Or, at least chosen to do. But, as I'm sitting here, we just finished putting together our financial plan for the year, and I think it's going to be a great year. I feel like we've made it through and we have a lot of momentum. But, the economy has not been necessarily the friend of any entrepreneur, I think, in the last 18 to 24 months. Lee: You're right. Lucy: That's the truth. Lee: It hasn't been good to anyone. Larry: Yeah, well, boy, that's an interesting lead-in to the question I'm going to ask, and that is: If you were sitting down right now with an entrepreneur and you were going to give them some advice, what advice would you give them today? Candace: That's a great question. I would say maybe three things. First, and I mean this both perhaps literally and figuratively, eat your broccoli. Eat your broccoli because it's good for you, and it will make you healthy. But, figuratively, I mean being an entrepreneur, there are a lot of things that you need to do that are good for you even though you may not want to do them. They're good for the company, they're good for your own personal growth, and so I would say don't shy away from those things. The second thing, also I mean both literally and figuratively is to play team sports. I think, literally, go out there and play volleyball and basketball, soccer, because I think playing in a team is actually very much like working in a small company. You have the same small team environment, you need to give and take and you have rules in a company just like you do on a sports team. Learning about leadership and teamwork, I think sports is an incredible way to learn that. And then the last thing is again, both figuratively and literally, put things to bed earlier than you want to. [laughter] By that, I mean definitely get more sleep than you want to get, but metaphorically, don't set perfection as the bar for everything. I think that in many, many cases good is enough. And if I had learned earlier, I think I would have saved myself a lot of time and stress. Lucy: Well, so, my next question is about the characteristics that make you a great entrepreneur. What we just saw in that last answer was one of them is wisdom. [laughter] Lucy: So, perhaps you can, other things that come to your mind when you think about yourself and entrepreneurship. Those characteristics that you think give you an edge. Candace: I think that I'm an optimist. I think entrepreneurs have to be willing to look reality in the face and convince themselves to see the rosy side of it, perhaps. [laughs] You need to say you can be so focused and drive for something even though there are going to be a lot of obstacles in your way. The second thing is I'm not scared of hard work. That's something that I think is crucial to being able to get a company off the ground. I think the last thing is I'm fairly direct and honest. I think when you're working in a small company environment, there's - somewhat thankfully from my perspective - there's not as much politics. You sit in a room with people, you decide things and you get things done. There's not ten layers of approvals. So, I think being straightforward with people and being honest with people really carries you a long way in being successful, particularly in a small group. Lucy: I have to agree with all of the above. When you have that small group, you just have to be really direct and honest. Candace: Limit to cycles. Lucy: Yeah. Candace: That's it. Lucy: It really does. So, Candace, one of our favorite questions is with building start-ups and being an entrepreneur, as you'd mentioned earlier, it's a ton of work. So, how do you bring balance into your personal and professional life? Candace: Yeah, I think this is a great question. As I thought about this, I have, perhaps, an ironic take on this. And, that is I view my family as an enabler of my professional success. I think that I have a fantastic husband, I mentioned earlier. I have two little kids. I have a two-year-old and a six-year-old. I actually started Crimson Hexagon when my two-year-old was two weeks. Lucy: Oh, my goodness! Lee: Oh, my God! Candace: There is no better way to give you perspective back in life than when you come home from a hard day of work and you get tackle-hugged by these two little people before you can even put your briefcase down. [laughs] So, I actually think that, by having a family, it allows me to be successful at work. Because I work just as hard as the next person and just as many hours. But, I think the trick is, even if it's 15 minutes that you sit down and talk with them in a day, you make that time. And, that time gets paid back to you in a thousand different ways that help you in the rest of your life. So, I just think you have to make sure that you spend time on each, even if the time is very little. But, mentally, it's what keeps me balanced. Lucy: Absolutely the case. Those are great ages for kids, just great, full of energy. So, Candace, you've already achieved a lot. What's next for you? Candace: I have achieved some good things, but I don't view myself as being done here. [laughs] I plan to continue running and growing small companies. I think that what we're doing here at Crimson Hexagon is so exciting. This type of activity is something I want to do for a long, long time. Lucy: Crimson Hexagon is exciting. That is just a cool company. And, I feel like I want to make a plug for a Boulder-based company that's one of your partners. Because we have a lot of Boulder listeners here. Room 214 is a partner of Crimson Hexagon. So, we're just excited about that. If you come out here to Boulder, you need to stop by. It would be great to have you. Thank you so much, Candace. We all appreciate your time. I want to remind listeners where they can find this interview. Larry: At W3W3.com as well as NCWIT.org. Lucy: All right. Thank you very much, Candace. We appreciate it. Lee: Yes. Candace: Thank you. Larry: Bye-bye. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Candace FlemingInterview Summary: Data is abundant on the web, and information is free. But meaning is what matters, and uncovering it requires a good deal more than counting keyword mentions across the social web. Crimson Hexagon's technology – based on groundbreaking work conducted at Harvard University’s Institute for Quantitative Social Science – distills meaning about brands, products, services, markets and competitors from the online conversation. Release Date: April 19, 2010Interview Subject: Candace FlemingInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 16:28

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Gail Goodman President, Chair, and CEO, Constant Contact Date: March 16, 2010 Entrepreneurial Heroes Interview with Gail Goodman [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders and I'm the CEO of National Center for Women and Information Technology or NCWIT. This is our next podcast interview in a series of interviews with women who have started IT companies and/or who are CEOs of start-up companies and the technology spaces. And today, we have Lee Kennedy with us, who is a serial entrepreneur and right now with Bolder Search and also with NCWIT Board of Directors. And Larry Nelson from W3W3 who has just informed us that tomorrow is his eleventh year of his Internet... Larry Nelson: ... Talk radio show. Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. Lee Kennedy: Congratulations, Larry. Larry: Thanks. Lucy: Well, in this interview is very exciting for all of us who send mail out and who know about Constant Contact. We are interviewing Gail Goodman, who is the President, Chairman, and CEO of Constant Contact. And she has done so much, both personally and through her company to really revolutionize the way that businesses reach out and send mail to their stake holders. And really since she's doing Constant Contact, the number of customers has just skyrocketing. NCWIT is a customer. We use it for our newsletters and our campaigns and everything else. So, welcome, Gail, it's good to have you with us. Gail Goodman: Great to be here and thank you for your business. Lucy: Well, you're welcome. Well, we are really eager to hear first, before we start into our entrepreneurial questions a little bit about what's going on with Constant Contact lately? Catch our listeners up a little bit. Gail: Right, for those of you who don't know Constant Contact: Constant Contact is 100 percent focused on helping small businesses, non-profits associations who look great. That's staying connected to customers, clients, members. So, we started with email marketing and that's absolutely our kind of flagship product. But, over the last couple of years, in addition to growing how many customers use Constant Contact, we also added two new products. Event marketing, so to help people run complete closed moved event registration, take money for the event and that whole community advice for business. Lucy: Of course. Gail: And an online survey tool to help people hear back from their customers or members with feedback and learn more about who those folks are, true demographic questions. Today, we have over 325,000 customers around the world who count on our service to stay connected to their most important audiences. And we are just immensely grateful to that group for their business. Lucy: Well, I didn't really know you had an event marketing tool. So, we have events. Gail: That's fabulous. Lucy: I'm going to have to go take a look at it. Gail, you're the CEO of a Tech company, an obviously you're immersed in Tech every day as you think about what Constant Contact is going to be doing in the future. What is it about technology that really interests you and how did you get into a technology company? Gail: Well, I have to say that I had the technology bug pretty darned early. I started using a computer when I was in high school, which to many of the listeners may seem obvious, but when I was in high school, they didn't have personal computers. You had to actually go find a big computer and something that looked like a refrigerator box and actually program on paper tapes and now I'm starting to sound like a dinosaur. Lucy: No, Gail, you're sounding just like Lucy and Larry. [laughter] Gail: But, I just love technology pretty early on and what excited me as I went through my career was not the technology itself, but the problems that it could solve for real people and real businesses. And so, as my career matured, it was all about solving customer problems and that really is what still excites me and makes me get all into the new and emerging technologies. How can this solve a problem that couldn't be solved with a mainframe, with a laptop and now that we have the Internet and mobile devices and it all creates new opportunities to solve problems. Lucy: Well, as you look at technology today, do you have specific technologies that you think are really leading the charge in terms of being innovative. What technologies interest you the most? Gail: As a business person thinking about what we do for our customers. The technology that interests me the most are the social networks and mobile. As a consumer, I'm really interested in the convergence of the smart phone with identity geo targeting and all that that brings together. I think it's consumers, we're just getting so empowered with the iPhone in our hands to do things so dramatically differently. It's like trying to go back and forth with trying to be a consumer and then thinking about what does that means for our business customers, how can they take advantage of that. Lucy: That's definitely the way that you have to think even in your business because your business is all about how consumers use your product. So, if we switch back to you, you started off as a techie and you loved solving problems. What moved you into being an entrepreneur and what is it about entrepreneurship that you love? Gail: The thing that moved me into entrepreneurship was really this combination of wanting to solve customer problems and really feeling like I was ready to earn my own destiny. I had spent a career working for others, sort of frustrated at the pace of what I could do with a pace of change, with the pace of innovation and it just got to the point where it was time to put my money where my mouth was and see if I could do it better than all the people I was thinking I could do it better than. Lucy: Obviously being in a start up that pace is fast enough for you right? Gail: Yeah, and the very interesting challenge for me now is, I joined Constant Contact in '99, there were six people. But, the place was definitely fast enough. Today, we are 625. Lucy: Wow. Gail: And I could hardly call us a start up anymore and how do we just keep that pace of innovation going? How do we keep internal entrepreneurship going? How do we make it easy for people to get things done and make decisions? And I am increasingly challenged to keep solving the same problems I came here to solve. Lucy: That's in interesting topic. You know, we have another interview series called "The Toolbox Series" where I think this idea of, how do you take a startup that has grown to some significant size and keep that innovation, start moving? That would be a very interesting topic. Larry: Yeah, it certainly would. Lee: And that's amazing that you've been there. It'll be 11 years, this year? Gail: Eleven years in April. Lee: Wow. Gail: Me and Larry, we're both doing our 11 year anniversary. [laughter] Larry: Yeah, I'll tell you. I was thinking that, wow. Lucy: Wow. Larry: You know, along the way I'm sure that you had either mentors or role models, or people who helped you out along the way. Well, who would that be that you would pick out that has influenced and supported you in your career path? Gail: I'm going to go with two answers here. Larry: OK. Gail: And one seems just a tiny bit trite. But, my parents really were huge influences here and I think the thing they did for me that is pretty unique, for their generation for women, is they really gave me a huge belief in myself and the confidence that I could do or try anything. And that was really a huge piece of what gave me the confidence to step out from under, you know, the corporate safety net and go alone. Lee: That's wonderful. Larry: Yeah, great. Gail: And then, along the way, you know, my best role models have been my CEO peer mentoring group. So, when I was about two years into this adventure, I joined a group of other venture-backed tech CEOs, who sat down together for a day-and-a-half a quarter and really talked about what we were doing to grow our businesses. You know, the role of the CEO, how to manage the board, how to raise more money. And we helped each other grow into our CEO roles. And so, I would say all of them were role models and I learned something from each and every one of them, because we each brought unique backgrounds and experience sets to the table and created an environment where we could be completely open about the issues and challenges we were facing in our business. Lee: And you sat down each quarter for a day-and-a-half solid? Gail: -huh. Lee: Wow. Lucy: Wow, well, that's pretty intense networking. Lee: Yeah. Lucy: That's awesome. Well, you know, and your statement about your parents, we see that time and time again at NCWIT, that, in fact, encouragement of parents, especially to women, young women, who are interested in technology. As you said, you were interested in computing in high school, at a time when there really wasn't... It was hard to be interested in computing in high school. And that encouragement from your parents, I think, is quite a factor. So, switching gears just a bit, from the encouragement of parents, to something maybe not quite so pleasant. We always like to ask the people we interview the hardest thing they've ever had to do in their career. So, why don't you tell us the most difficult thing? You mentioned working for others and then you started Constant Contact as an entrepreneur; what's the toughest thing you've had to do? Gail: Well, I think the toughest thing I had to do was, you know, really face the fact that Constant Contact might not make it. So, we were venture-backed, the good news is we got some money before the Internet bubble burst. But then, we needed some money after the bubble burst, and money was pretty darn hard to come by. And so, as the cash balance was dwindling and I was counting down how many payrolls I could make, while I was frantically running around the world hat in hand, I needed to write a shutdown plan. And we got within 10 days of pulling the trigger on that. Lucy: Oh! Lee: Wow! And you got funding? Gail: You know, get the executive team in a room, tell them the plan. Tell them we're... You know, at that point, it looked more likely than not, that we were going to shut this thing down. And I think it was... You know, the full employee base never knew how close we got. But, looking around the table at the team who had been working hard every day and saying, "Guys, I think it's over," was the hardest thing I had to do. Larry: How many employees did you have at that time? Gail: More than we should have. [laughter] Lee: Oh, no! Lucy: Wow. Lee: Well, that's a great story. Right? And that it turned out happily ever after this. Larry: Yeah. Lee: So, Gail, we have a lot of young people listening to our podcasts and we would love for you to... If you were sitting here with them, what advice would you give them about entrepreneurship? Gail: Well, the thing I would say, is get a good solid foundation before you strike out on your own. So, get some experience first working for a company, and be very observant about what works and what doesn't work. Leadership style, management style. You know, it is very difficult to be figuring these things out for the first time in an environment where you are, you know, absolutely supposed to be running the place. And as you think about those first sets of jobs, be very thoughtful about the set of experiences you want to get. And I would say, get as close to the customer and the value delivery point as you can. So, if you're in a professional services company, you know, get into the client engagements. If you're in a software product company, get into product management. So, you see how the sausage factory produces a product. And not everything you're going to learn there, you're going to want to take with you, but get some stripes somewhere else. Not only will it give you an experience and guide to your own leadership and management style, I think it'll make you much more fundable, if you're going into a business where you're going to need some other people to vote for you and give you their money. Larry: You listeners out there pay attention to that reply, because I wish I had heard that, before I started my first company. But... Lee: That is. That's sage advice. Larry: So, Gale, you talked about your parents, the CEO mentoring group, and so on. Getting right into you, what are some personal characteristics of yours that have made you a successful entrepreneur? Gail: So, I'll highlight four that I think are pretty important. And I'll start with tenacity. I just refuse to fail. [laughter] Gail: Every obstacle was a challenge to be taken on. The second kind of directly relates to that which is I am an analytic animal. So, when I see challenges I don't react to them emotionally, I react to them analytically. Let's diagnose it. Let's do the root cause analysis. And let's fix it. The third thing is that I am a continuous learner. I understand that I don't know what I don't know, and I'm not afraid to get help from others. Talk, you know, peers... One of my first reactions to a problem we would have in the business is who might have solved this problem already? And how do I get access to them to figure out how they solved it? So, I'm always reading books. I am always talking to others. I am always trying to pick people's brains. And the final piece and probably the hardest piece, for me, because it wasn't natural, is I think it's important as an entrepreneur that you be immensely open to the feedback of others and recognize the weaknesses in yourself so you can complement them with the team. And so I ask for, and on a good day listen to a lot of feedback. Lucy: Well, and I think that, I'd add a fifth characteristic that you didn't mention. You have a great sense of humor. A great laugh, I have to think that that helps get through the day as well. Gail: If you start taking yourself too seriously you're in deep trouble. Larry: Yep. Lucy: Yeah. We think so too. We don't take Larry seriously. [laughter] Larry: We'll talk offline, Gail. Lucy: So speaking of your day. You have a lot of work in your day obviously running a successful company like Constant Contact. And yet you have a personal life too. We like to ask how people bring balance into their life knowing full well that perhaps most people are totally unbalanced when they're in the situation that you're in. But, we find that they amazingly have coping strategies so they do have a personal life as well. So, why don't you tell us about how you bring balance there? Gail: Yeah. Just a couple of things. I have so many interests outside of work that I have been unwilling to give up because of that tenacity. So, that's really helped. So, I happen to be a tennis addict as a player and watcher. The good thing about tennis is you've got to schedule it. So, you've got a bunch of other people waiting for you on a court, you don't blow it off. So, it happened to be a very good hobby because other people were waiting for me. To all the tennis players out, all I need to say is doubles with three people is really not as much fun. And I never said, wow, I'm not going to have that much time for that this quarter. I'm not going to sign up for the contract with the ladies. I just did it. And so that formed some anchors of things that got me out of the office and got me moving and fun. The second thing is I have always prioritized the people who mean the most to me. My family, my friends, you cannot let those relationships go. They are the most valuable thing in your life. Someone once told me that story, just think about the world from, sitting on your porch in your 80s, looking back on your life. Very few people are going to say I wish I had spent more time working. The number one thing you hear is that I wish I had spent more time with my family. And you never get a chance to go back and do that. So, I've always been very clear that while on a given day a work priority might overwhelm a family thing. As I look at weeks and months, I can't let that happen more than occasionally. Lucy: So, it's an integration process as opposed to this perfect idea of balance. Larry: Yes. Lucy: Yes. Gail: Yeah. You never get the perfect idea of balance. But you've got to keep the priorities in place. Lucy: Absolutely. Well, Gail, we have loved talking to you, and it's been so interesting. We have one last question. You've achieved so much. Give us a little insight into what's next? What's next with you? What's next with Constant Contact? Gail: So, we at Constant Contact feel like we are just getting started. We are thrilled to serve 325,000 customers. There are 27 million small businesses in the US. And when you add non profits and trade associations, the number gets up to 40 million. And we think those small organizations succeed based on customer intimacy and relationships. And our vision is nothing less than to help them revolutionize that success formula. And so we are on the march to a million, and just unbelievably excited about it because small business is the backbone of the American economy. It employs half of the private workforce and has typically been the very first to hire coming out of recession. So, literally our mission for this year is to re-energize America's small business and pull the United States out of the recession. Lucy: We're behind you. Lee: Hallelujah. Lucy: We're behind you. Larry: Wow. Gail, I just wanted to thank you for joining us today. Gail Goodman of Constant Contact. And this is Lucy, Lee, and Larry. You know the three Ls. It's really our pleasure. Your interview will be up on ncwit.org. It will also be on w3w3.com. And we'll have it on a podcast, a blog, and that social networking stuff you were talking about. So, thanks for joining us today. Gail: That's great. See you all on Twitter. Lucy: All right. Thank you Gail. Gail: Bye-bye. Lucy: Bye. Lee: Bye Gail. [exit music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Gail GoodmanInterview Summary: Gail Goodman joined Constant Contact in 1999, when the company had six employees. Today it has 625 employees, with more than 300,000 customers worldwide. Release Date: April 16, 2010Interview Subject: Gail GoodmanInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 20:02

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Caterina Fake Co-founder, Hunch and Flickr Date: November 16, 2009 Entrepreneurial Heroes Interview with Caterina Fake [music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I am the CEO of the National Center for Women and Information Technology, or NCWIT. This interview series is a series of discussions with women who have started IT companies, who have really wonderful advice to share with everybody who is interested in becoming an entrepreneur. With me is Lee Kennedy who, herself, is a serial entrepreneur, and as of late, of Bolder Search. Also an NCWIT Board Member. Welcome, Lee. Lee Kennedy: Thanks, Lucy. It's great to be here. Lucy: And also Larry Nelson. W3W3.com. Tell us a little bit about w3w3. Larry Nelson: We are an Internet talk radio show and we've been doing it for over ten years now. We archive everything. You can go back and listen any time. One series here that we've enjoyed so much is the NCWIT series. Lucy: Well, thank you. We are getting a lot of notice lately as well from a couple of people who write books on entrepreneurs from the National Academy of Engineering that wants to feature some of these interviews so we are pretty excited about the series. And today, we are going to have another great interview with Catarina Fake who is the co-founder of Hunch. And Hunch is -- and we are going to ask a little bit more about this in just a minute but for my preparation for this interview, Hunch is -- a collective intelligence decision making system and it uses decision trees to make decisions based on user's interests. And it was just recently launched, Catarina, in June of this year? Catarina Fake: End of this year, that's right. Lucy: What great name, Hunch, that is wonderful. But before that Catarina was the co-founder of Flickr and I'm sure all of our listeners know about Flickr and Flickr was one of those companies that open many people's eyes to the power of Web 2.0 and really taking together those features such as social networking and community. And things that people wanted to share like photos and other things. So it is a wonderful company. Catarina has won many awards and, in 2006, she was named Time 100 Time Magazine's List of World's 100 Most Influential People. That is very awesome. We are happy to have you here, Catarina. Catarina: Thanks for having me. Lucy: And now, tell us exactly what is collective intelligence? Catarina: So, collective intelligence is when a lot of people get together. Not necessarily even people that know each other and create something. So a really great example of that would be Wikipedia. Wikipedia is as the people know that encyclopedia of thousands of thousands of subject where you can find out biography of the Queen of Netherlands or you can find information about biology or just pretty much any topic under the sun that will be in any encyclopedia anywhere. I would also say that Flickr, which is a photo sharing site, is also a kind of collective knowledge system and that there are millions of people I think it just announced that Flickr hit four billion photos. That is four billion photos out there. A large percentage of which are shared publicly among people. And it has become that vast, infinite national geographic that is constantly being updated with things from around the world and all manner of photograph. And so, it itself has become a kind of collective knowledge system. So I think what distinguishes the collective knowledge system, some other kind of social software is that there are a lot of people contributing to it. You can contribute very small amounts of information like for example you can just correct the spelling mistake on Wikipedia. Or you could contribute one photo or leave one comment on Flickr. The system gets better on the more people that you get. Lucy: Well, so those kind of sites then I guess with all those knowledge will lead directly into decision making and how you are going to use algorithms. Is that what part is Hunch is doing? Catarina: Yes, Hunch is another knowledge collective system. It is a new kind of system and it is design very differently from Wikipedia and Flickr in that what people are creating are decision trees. So the way that Hunch work is it ask you to leave a question and give you an answer. And you don't have to do anything. You don't even have to type anything. You just arrive at the topic. So let's say you are trying to figure out what college you should go to. The system will then ask you a series of question such as what do you want to major in? Are you interested in the college that has fraternities or sororities or not? Do you want a large, state college? You want a private college? Would you prefer a larger college that is based on the city? Those kinds of things. It is basically replicating an expert system so you would probably in real life, if you are looking for somewhere to go to college, you would talk to a guidance counselor who would ask you probably the same series of questions. And what Hunch does at the end, it gives you a hunch. It consist of lots of best colleges that apply to the criteria that you have given it. And so this applies to anything. This could apply to a rock bank. New York time best sellers. Should I retire to Florida? What kind of girls should I buy? Pretty much any question that is decision. And when the system works is that people are contributing the topic until somebody has a lot of knowledge about say, yoga classes in Minneapolis. We make a topic that say yoga class in Minneapolis. What are you looking for? What kind of yoga are you doing, etc., and all of this information. And so it is a way for people to get together and help each other with decisions that they are making. Now we are going to do things that I think that I found is directly in my work in the Internet is that I am a big believer that the Internet really flourish because of people's willingness to contribute to help other people. You see this all over the Internet and kind of the background with the Internet is really people uploading pictures of their cat. Started out, people uploading pictures of their cat. People writing little essay. People blogging. People adding information in the Internet. I mean this is really what the Internet is comprised of. And Aaron Key once said the Internet is comprised of words and enthusiasm and I think this is generally true, I think that if I go to the trouble of researching for example what is a good wedding photographer in Boston and I saw a whole bunch of wedding photographer and this person specializes in black and white. This person is formal shot. This person is candid and such and such. If I create a Hunch topic then everybody else can benefit the research that I've done and people can add oh, I actually know a really good wedding photographer that hasn't been mentioned here. Another people can add another question and all that kind of thing. Collaboratively, people can add topic. Lucy: That is pretty interesting and I can see a way to get more girls into computer science. We put something up on Hunch and anytime the girls said, I want to pick a major, it comes back computer science. "I realized that is not..." Catarina: Here's the thing about Hunch. Teach hunch about you. So it is a series of questions that ask you everything under the sun. How do you spend your weekend? Do you live in the city or do you live in the country? Have you ever written a poem that wasn't for school Do you believe that alien abductions are real or fake? Would you rather spoon or be spooned? And all these kinds of questions that teach Hunch about you and it will learn. It will learn gradually over time what you are like that you prefer this kind of music or that you are more likely to go out and party on weekend. More likely to stay home and watch a movie with your family. So what is does it tailors its answers specifically to each user. It doesn't give anybody the same answer. It gives everybody different answers based on how the taught Hunch about themselves. Lucy: And so Catarina, how did you first get into technology? Catarina: I think I had the benefit of having a dad who got us a little PRS 80 computer when we were really little kids. He had a curiosity about technology and he himself is never a programmer or even honestly, he never himself got that much about computers but he was always exposing us to new technology and things like that. He got us little computer which we used and I think nothing really happened with me and computing at all during my youth until I got into college. And then this is actually in the pre-Internet days in the early '90s. In the pre-web days. The Internet was nascent, but had not flourished into the web which made it much more usable for everybody. And so, I went to Vassar College and Vassar had a great, for the time, and since I haven't been back to campus lately, I'm not sure how the computer systems are, but in 1990 when I was there, it had a phenomenal computer system. We had data ports in all of our rooms and we could get on to the Internet from wherever we are. So as a result to that, I just taught myself how to use command line stuff which is all that you could do in those days, and was largely self taught. The thing that I loved about the Internet was that it was a means of communication. It was a way of connecting people. My sister was on the Stanford system out in San Francisco, I was on the east coast in New York. We were able to email each other and this was a revelation to me. You could actually, using IRC chat, have conversations with Dante scholars in Aarhus, Denmark, that you could discuss you paper with that you were writing in college. So that's how I started getting into it. What happened was I graduated from college. I had all of these odd jobs where I did interstitials on Seinfeld on the film crew. I worked in a dive shop in Arkansas. [laughter] I basically had this very peripatetic post college career. And then I was on my way to go backpacking in Nepal, when I decided to stop in and visit my sister who was living in San Francisco. What happened was, my backpacking trip got delayed, and delayed. Pretty soon it was avalanche season and we couldn't go on the trip anymore. So I ended up staying in my sister's spare bedroom for months. She is a very kind and generous older sister and has always been lovely to me. But after six months she said, "You know, maybe you should get a job." [laughter] This is 1994, and the most interesting thing that was going on in those days was the web. And the web was just starting out and was just starting to flourish. A friend of mine worked at one of the first web design shops and he sat down one weekend and taught me the basics of HTML. There were no books around at the time so I taught it to myself by doing View Source as you used to be able to do in those days. I started doing it free lance and then I got a job at one of the first web design shops here in San Francisco. Then took it from there. Lucy: Wow. That is amazing. So you have really just led us into our next question which was, it's clear how you got into technology and really got interested, but what made you want to become an entrepreneur? Caterina: It's interesting I think that entrepreneurialism is something of a personality type. It is very common that people who are entrepreneurs are the kind of people who spend nights and weekends just building stuff. Tinkerers, packers, creators, inventors, or however you want to describe them. People who see the possibility of technology. Or even non-technology entrepreneurs. They're building furniture in their spare time. They are doing electronics, making robotics, those kinds of things. It really is a career that appeals to people who are restlessly inventive, who are curious. Other qualities that entrepreneurs seem to share are that they're very determined, they have a vision they want to make real, they see possibilities in things. I think I had a lot of these characteristics and a lot of these traits that just became very natural career path for me. I have only worked at a large company after my company Flickr was acquired by Yahoo that was the first time I worked at a really large company. It is, I think, a kind of temperament. A choice and a path. Lucy: So what I am hearing is, you really love the tinkering, the building of something, the... Caterina: Creativity of it. Lucy: The creativity. Caterina: Creativity. In some ways you also have to have an appetite for risk. Lucy: Definitely. Caterina: In some ways I think you have to have the ability to take big risks and be fully responsible and be the kind of person where the buck stops with you. Because there is really some white knuckled periods of entrepreneurialism that you have to get through. There is nobody that's going to help you. There is no organization to support you. Often there is not enough money. Often there is a lot of doubt as to whether or not you can pull it off. So I think you also have to have this kind of appetite for risk that is different from people who take on a, I hate to call it a normal career, but a regular job for an employer. That's even the case with people who join startups. Not necessarily even people who found startups, people who joined startups have to have a certain ability to handle uncertainty and risk because it is an uncertain enterprise. It is not like going to work for a government job or the Bank of America or something like that. There are many people who would argue that entrepreneurialism and startups and small companies are actually not nearly as risky as working at big companies. Because there are often big rounds of layoffs and your jobs can be eliminated, some kind of large bureaucratic regime change and all of those kinds of things. So there are risks on both sides. People who work at big companies are not necessarily as secure or protected. I think one time companies in America were much more secure. So I think it is a different kind of thing. Larry: Right. With all the people that you worked with over the years, if you were to pick out one person who was probably your most important role model or a mentor for you, who would that be? Caterina: One of the investors in Flickr is Esther Dyson. I don't know if any of you are familiar with Ester or her works. She is very well known. She has been working in technology for, gosh, I am not even sure, 20 years, 30 years, a very long time and is highly respected and is very much a mentor to me. It is very inspiring to see women who are working in technology and have been working in technology prior to the web. She started a conference called PC Forum which was a huge conference. It is pretty much the conference. I think PC actually stood for personal computer and they stated it stood for personal computer, or something prior to that. But that shows you how far back the conference went. It wasn't really tremendous thing when Esther invested in Flickr. It was a big milestone for us. I think that we had built something that somebody of her stature was interested in investing in. So I have to say that she is somebody who I very much respect and admire. Lucy: I can see it. Esther Dyson investing in your company is a big deal. Caterina: It is a big deal. It is a big deal. Here is the funny story. OK, so this is probably good little anecdote to show how persistent that you need to be. So she ran this conference. We are the six-person company in Vancouver that nobody has heard about. We've got a website and a dream. So Esther Dyson who is a very famous woman who runs a very, very big conference, we really wanted to go to this conference. Because we knew there are a lot of venture capitalists there and we needed people to invest in our company. We needed to show people in technology our website. So we wrote to her and we had no money, we were broke. We said we would love to present at PC Forum and we don't have any money to pay. It was $5,000 a ticket or something like that. And there was just no way that we could afford to go to this conference. As a fact nobody was going to invite us because we are nobodies up in Vancouver. So she wrote back and said, no, I am sorry that we can't do that. So then the following year we decided to try it again. So we write another letter and we say, listen, OK we are still here and we'd still like to come to the conference and we now have this new product called Flickr, which we would love to present. And we wrote to her and we wrote to some of her staff. We received an email from Esther which said no, I am sorry we are all full, or no I am sorry we can't accept your proposal. And I'd say about a half an hour later we received another email from one of her staff that said, oh actually, we'd be interested in having you present at the conference. So they contradicted each other. Of course, we only responded to the one that had the affirmative interest. So we say we'd be delighted to accept your invitation to present at the conference. And so, Esther who happens to sit on a board at a company in Vancouver said, "OK I'm going to find out who these persistent people are up in Canada." And so she scheduled a breakfast with us because she was in town for a board meeting so they ate with us. And it was at that meeting that we presented our website Flickr to her. And she agreed to invest in it. And we were just regular folks completely out of the blue and had managed to get this meeting with Esther. And so, I think that persistence paid off. And if you don't want to ever present something that's not good to people. But, if you feel as if you've got a worthy product and that's worthy or their attention you should definitely apply for, you know every conference presentation that you can. Lucy: That's a great story. It's always good to hear those happy endings. The next question isn't about happy endings maybe, but it centers around the toughest thing you've ever had to do in your career. Caterina: Interestingly, Flickr was the result of our company dying so it's not. I'm not sure how familiar you guys are with the story of how Flickr started but we had started our company to build a massive multiplayer game. It was an online game it was web based. And it was played in the browser. It was called game never ending. And we had tried to raise money for this game. And it was 2002 and the boom had just busted as everybody recalls. And there was no money around and the other thing too is that we were trying to build something that nobody had ever really seen before. And this it seems strange because there are so many people that are playing these things in their browsers now that never existed in 2002. So people didn't really get what we were doing. Is this something you can buy at CompUSA or at your local Wal-Mart or what is this. Is it like online solitaire. And so nobody knew what we were doing and we didn't have any investors. And we had rapidly run out of money building this game. And we were just about to collapse basically. The company was just about to disintegrate. I hadn't been paid for a year. Nobody on the team had gotten paid for six months, three months to six months. There was one guy on the team who had three kids. He was the only guy who was getting paid. And getting up every morning and knowing that your responsible for the paychecks for all of these people. And your company is going under and you haven't been able to find investments and this thing that you love is just about to die. This baby that you created is just about to meet it's sorry end. It's a really horrifying thing. And you like awake and wonder how the hell this is all going to turn out. And I've seen so many startups get to this point, run out of money and die. And it's never, its never a happy thing. But, that said, I would say that going through that is one of the most you know, growth oriented experience of your life. And we managed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Because what happened was, we had about three months worth of money left that we could keep going. And so we had this idea for this photo sharing thing. And decided that gosh we don't have enough time to build this game, we'll build this little photo sharing site that we came up with the idea for. Because in three months were never going to be able to complete this game. And then another thing that we had fortunately done is applied to the Canadian government for a grant two years before, which we had completely forgotten about. And it was December 23rd when we got a letter from them saying that they were giving us this grant. I think that it was for like $150,000, but $50,000 production budget and then a $50,000 marketing budget and I don't remember we really only ended up collecting a fraction of that, about $50,000 at the time. It was just able to keep us afloat long enough for us to build this new thing which we christened Flickr. So it was very much a Phoenix from the ashes. We were able to pull something out of it. It was one of the stories that ended happily. I think that even when companies go under, what I was about to say before was, even when your company goes under, people look back on their experience starting a company as one of the best experiences that they have had even if it fails; that they learned so much; that they really pushed themselves; they extended themselves to the very limits of their abilities and that feeling is irreplaceable. To succeed or fail, that is a very powerful experience for people. Larry: So you are talking about Flickr, you are talking about your new venture, Hunch. With all these things you have been through, how do you bring balance both into your personal and your professional lives? Caterina: It's interesting. I think that there is a lot of people who talked about this idea of balance being very important and I completely agree. And one of the things that I found is that the first time around you're not as seasoned or practiced, and I wrote a blog post about this recently on my blog at caterina.net. But the first time around we spent a lot of time worrying about things that we didn't need to worry about and basically flipping out about things that didn't need to flip out about -- doing things that were really not important. And I think the second time around I managed to figure out along the way what is worthwhile. Maybe staying at the office around the clock isn't as productive as working really, really hard, for eight or nine hours and then going home at the end of the day and actually having dinner with people. Because you need to sustain yourself over time and I do think that we do end up burning out if you don't pace yourself. You need to pace yourself. I think that you can do, it is very important to be able to pull those work crunch, we are going to get something at the door and we are going to work really hard in anticipation of a launch or that kind of thing. But that as a continual daily thing is probably not advisable. Lucy: Amen. Lee: Yup. It's the toughest thing there is, is balancing that personal and professional. So Caterina, you have achieved so much taking Flickr from nearly in the ashes to a phenomenal success, and now launching Hunch. So tell us what you see down the road with your career in technology? Caterina: I see, hopefully down the road Hunch is wildly successful and we have thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, if not millions of users. I am just really committed to making Hunch the best site that it can be. I think one of the things that I really love to do is build websites and build interactive communities and build things that people use. I think that so long as I am able to keep doing what I love, which is making things and building things and thinking about things and having new ideas. That is not much different from what I am doing. So if you are talking about progression of the career, do I want to take a job as CEO of some massive technology company, I don't think you'll ever see me doing that. I think probably I will continue to be self-employed and an entrepreneur for the rest of my life. Larry: Sounds great. Lucy: I was going to say your passion for this, it just comes oozing out through your voice. It is clearly something that you love to do and that you love entrepreneurship and I think we are all lucky that you are out there inventing all these great sites. Lee: And you have given such great answers to the questions, I am sure everybody is going to love hearing this. Larry: Yes. You Betcha. Lucy: So thanks very much for your time. I wanted to remind folks you can find these interviews at www.w3w3.com and also at the NC website, www.ncwit.org and as well as the Pearson Prentice Hall. Lee: Thanks, Caterina. Lucy: So thank you so much Caterina. Caterina: Thank you guys so much. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Caterina FakeInterview Summary: The creation of Flickr, says Caterina Fake, was "very much a phoenix from the ashes...a story that ended happily." Release Date: November 16, 2009Interview Subject: Caterina FakeInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 27:43

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Emily Olson Co-founder, Foodzie Date: June 29, 2009 Emily Olson: Foodzie [music] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I am the CEO of National Center for Women and Information Technology, or NCWIT, and this is one of an ongoing series of interviews that we're doing with women who have started IT companies. We've got an especially exciting one today for all of you people who like to eat. Larry Nelson: Yeah. Lucy: And for people who like to create food, and people who like to eat. With me is Lee Kennedy who is the CEO and founder of Boulder Search, herself a serial entrepreneur and also a board member of NCWIT. And also, Larry Nelson, CEO of W3W3. Is that what you call yourself? Larry: Yeah, well, I call myself all kinds of things, but I'll take that. Lucy: CEO of W3W3. Hi, Larry. How are you? Larry: Oh, absolutely magnificent. I'm really excited about this, and as you said before, Brad and David Cohen are very proud of her. In a little conversation that I had with David Cohen about a month ago, I said, "Wow, they're doing so well". He said, "Well, you know, if you really think of it. They've got the natural product, the natural thing, and they're just tapping into the IT". So, they're very proud of you. Lucy: Today we're talking with Emily Olson. The reason why we're all so proud of Emily is that she's a TechStars alum, and her people who have listened to our Entrepreneurial Toolbox new series, they'll know from the interview with David Cohen all about TechStars. It's a wonderful program here in Boulder to help budding entrepreneurs. Emily is the co-founder of Foodzie. It's an online marketplace here you can discover and buy food directly from all kinds of passionate food producers and growers. Listeners will be very eager to know that Emily just got back from Seattle where - I read in her blog - she looked at all kinds of great food at Pike Street Market and all those other places that you like to go when you are in Seattle. Emily and her co-founders were chosen by "Business Week" as three of the most promising young entrepreneurs in tech for 2009. Larry: Wow. Lee Kennedy: That's exciting. Lucy: So, welcome, Emily. Emily Olson: Thanks, thanks. I'm glad to be here. Lucy: First, tell us, before we get into our questions about entrepreneurship, what's going on at Foodzie? Emily: Well, there's a lot of exciting things going on. We've been growing a bunch, in particular our producer base, and just getting more and more sellers on board who share their products. But more specifically, right now a lot of people want to find what's local to them and we have more filters for them because that's something that we're working on right now as far as things that we're building. And yeah, improving the way both with the tools that help our producers to sell and help people to find specifically what they're looking for so we can improve the site. Lucy: Well, and I hear you've got great customer service at Foodzie, really. Emily: We try, yeah. Lucy: Really taking care of customers, and I think Brad mentioned that you are always bribing people with chocolate over at TechStars. Lee: I remember that. Emily: I usually joke that that's how we got in. We brought some sea salt caramels and LUCA chocolate out of North Carolina. We brought those with us, and sort of, now it's the expectation that wherever we go we do bring food. So, yeah, they got to know us well and we got to feed everybody there at TechStars. Lucy: Well, that's wonderful. Let's just get right to our entrepreneurship questions. We could talk about Foodzie all day. It's just kind of making me hungry. Emily: That would be my world. Larry: I was going to warn the listeners. When you go to the Foodzie website, you will get hungry. Lucy: Oh, it's just beautiful. So, Emily, why don't you give a bit of history about how you got into technology, and how you came to start a technology company? What technologies are cool, et cetera? Emily: OK, so I was actually - I still am - in the food business, and that's where I found something that I was really passionate about. I was working for a specialty food retailer called The Fresh Market based on the East Coast, and I worked directly with the buyers there in helping to source products. And I also manage their e-commerce there. I just saw a disconnect, basically, the small producers who were trying to get into these stores. It was really hard for them because they often had limited distribution. They didn't have the margins built in and they couldn't make their way into these brick-and-mortar stores. What I really liked about technology and what the Internet provides was more of an open platform where you have unlimited shelf space, and you have all these opportunities to have more of these producers without the barriers and limitations you have of a brick-and-mortar store. And you also have the opportunity with video and a lot of the social media that we have going on to actually connect with these producers and get to know them better which we don't have the opportunity to do when there is just packaging sitting on the shelf. That's what got me the most excited about what I was doing, that I was passionate about, was using technology to make it better. Lucy: So you use technology to tell the stories of the producers in addition to showing what they're selling. Emily: Absolutely, yeah. So not only are we using technology, we're trying to make it easy for them to get on with a store, sell their products to a wider audience, but also to share their story which -- if you go to a farmer's market and you actually get to meet the person that makes the food, that's kind of what is the object behind a lot of these products, getting that story. I think we have the ability and the technology to replicate that as closely as possible. So, yeah, those are the things that got me really excited. Lucy: So, Emily, we're always curious why entrepreneurs become entrepreneurs. So, tell us a little bit about why entrepreneurship makes you tick and just what it is that you love about it. Emily: Well, initially it starts by being a problem that you want to solve and realizing that you are going to need to go and solve it yourself. I actually think that's where it was for me, while I saw I wasn't going to be able to do it, it turns out that it didn't exist and you have to create something. I think someone who is willing to take a risk and who likes creating, who likes building, who likes all of that, I think leads you into entrepreneurship. At least that's how it happened for me. Lucy: And do you find yourself continuing to take that role at Foodzie as looking for the new challenges that need to be solved? Emily: I think new challenges are presented every day. I think, yeah, absolutely, and I think what's really exciting when you mentioned customer service. We have a very close relationship with all of the producers that sell on our site, and we try to have a very close relationship with customers that buy. If you listen to them and you discover you what their needs are, then you can iterate and develop the product to their needs. I think that's the most exciting thing as an entrepreneur, that you can guide it and you can make those decisions to change something. With a small team you can make it happen pretty fast. So, I think that's something that gets really - I don't know - exciting to be able to say, "Hey, I want to do this," and just do it. Oftentimes in bigger companies, and when you're not an entrepreneur you can't quickly make those choices. So that's what has been a lot of fun for me. Larry: Wow, that's fantastic. You know, we've interviewed now dozens of wonderful women in the NCWIT Hero Series, and you certainly are one of the youngest. I can't help but ask this. Who influenced you the most? Who supported you, or did you have mentors or advisors? Emily: Well, I think early on when I was in high school I had a very strong mentor who was actually a chemistry teacher of mine, but he sort of just instilled in me that I could do anything that I want. And I think I took that with me through and into my career. And so I definitely had that foundation early on. As far as taking a risk, I think it's having the right support around you. My co-founders, Rob and Nik, knowing that you have the right team to start with when you go into business is huge. It allows you to overcome the initial roadblocks and obstacles that often stop people who have a great idea to actually follow through with it. So I think that was a huge thing for me early on, and then when we got to TechStars we had some incredible mentors that took us from the IP stage all the way, to whether it was working on price strategy or how we were going to market it or wanting it on an open platform or a closed platform and all of those questions we went through. We had just mentors who had been through it who built their businesses and could offer us really good advice and that took us, I think, several steps ahead of where we would have been on our own. Lucy: Well, and you know, your answer really points again to the critical role of the encouragement in young people's lives that teachers have, especially in high school and college, that the can give you that confidence to believe in yourself, no matter what you're working on. It's incredibly important the number of stories we've heard about math teachers or chemistry teachers or anybody else really making sure that you had confidence. So turning now to something that may be a little less positive, we like to ask people the challenges that they've had so far in their career and what the one toughest thing you had to do so far in your career. What might that be? Emily: One? [laughs] Larry: Oh, yeah, yeah. Lucy: Only one. Larry: We don't have two hours. [laughter] Emily: The hardest thing, I think, for me actually has been to find people to come on board that are just as passionate as you are as far as the entrepreneur and founder of a company. I think you take that for granted when you are an employee and you are excited. Now, running a business it's totally different, and I think finding those people... We've been really fortunate. We have two employees working now for Foodzie. One of them came to us and said that, "I want to be a Foodzie," and had everything that we needed. And I wasn't even looking for, but came to us. We've been searching for some other people that we want to join the team, but it's been really, really hard. I think we care a lot about the culture we're building and making sure that people believe in it. And so I would say that has such a direct impact on the business that finding the right people has probably been the hardest thing that we had to do. Lucy: It is hard finding good people that have that same passion that you do about the company you started. So, Emily, you had mentioned earlier in the interview that you got some great coaching from a chemistry teacher. We are always curious, what kind of coaching you would give young people, people in high school, college, early 20s, about entrepreneurship, and what advice you'd give them as far as starting a company or weathering through a company? Emily: I think that I had mentioned before about having the right team around you. I think that's absolutely critical, and I think oftentimes people get discouraged on an idea that seems really exciting to start. Then it often becomes "I can't do it" because you're missing pieces that can get you through that. And so I definitely think that above all else when you have a great idea, think about how you can round out your team. I think two to three founders to develop is the right number. It was three for us, and I think it was, perhaps, the perfect number because we rounded out the technology and marketing business side. So that's one thing. Surround yourself with the right team. But also find what you're really passionate about and make sure that this idea that you have is something you want to spend every day, all day, every weekend, thinking about for the next couple of years because it is all-consuming. When the days are really hard and long, if you're passionate about it and you really love what you're doing, it's a little bit easier. I know that's something for me. This is the space that I am truly, truly passionate about, and that work/life balance. Sometimes I confuse the two. Is this work? Is this life? I don't know. It's the same. So I think that finding something that you're passionate about is really important. Sometimes, I think that overused when people often say like, "Well, what the heck am I passionate about? I don't know. Am I passionate about this?" For me, I found I was passionate about food in college because I was putting off my homework and everything else to cook and do all these things that were related to food. And so I think if you're trying to look for what you're passionate about or trying to see if this idea you are going after is something you're passionate about. See if it's the kind of thing you would want to do, if you didn't have to work at all and you just had to retire and someone was going to pay your way and you had free time to do whatever. Would you want to be doing that? I think that's an important thing to think about. I think it is just really important when you're starting a business. Larry: Emily, you mentioned working eight days a week or something like that. Emily: [laughter]. Somewhere around there. Lee: He must be worried that you're working. Larry: Right, right. I know. I guess we can associate with that. Isn't that right, Lee? Lee: I was going to say that as being a serial entrepreneur, you've got to love it because you are doing it all the time, morning, noon and night. And if you don't love it, it's just gets to be a drag. Larry: And now I'm going to ask for a real tough question. Lucy: Oh, good. We are ready for it [laughter]. Larry: With all these... Emily: I already got that one [laughter] Larry: Oh, well, listen to this one. With all that you were talking about, how do you bring balance into your personal and your professional lives? Emily: If you're doing what you're passionate about, I think that the line is often blurred. I feel like I can go and do something like go to a cooking event and go and learn how to make chocolate truffles and that was just purely enjoyment for me. But I can tie it back to a business in a way, like I can write a blog about it or whatever might be. So for me, that's been it, because the line is kind of blurred. But even though I am passionate about what I do, I do have to disconnect and just not be doing something not related to the business. And I think for me it's going out nature. I've been fortunate the few places we operate Foodzie are in Colorado and San Francisco, California. Both have amazing outdoors and places to go and explore. And so I get to go offline and go do those kind of things like hiking in San Francisco, sailing and things like that. And also, try to plan it into your schedule. I think I've set a couple of goals for myself outside of just getting into nature. I want to learn how to play the guitar. I want to learn more about the American history and I want to join a soccer league. And that's for the entire year, but I try to work a little bit of accomplishing those every couple of weeks, so that I make sure I do those things. Lucy: Very wise. Larry: Yes, I'll say. I like that answer. Lucy: Plus I want some chocolate truffles. [laughs] Emily: That made you guys hungry, huh? Lucy: You keep bringing out the subject on chocolate that just really outstanding. Well it's really fascinating to listen to everything that you're saying, especially about the history of Foodzie. I know you have a very bright future. So this next question, which is our final question is kind of hard to ask. But what's next for you? It's hard to know, because you're right in the very beginning you started a wonderful company. But perhaps you can speculate a bit with us about what's next. Emily: Well, I think what's next is definitely something related to Foodzie. We'll be doing this for a good while. And I think our big vision is to help small food producers across this country succeed and stay in business. And we've really only scratched the surface in doing that. So we really want to just become partners with these producers and help them build their business. I know that's sort of a vague answer, but we want to have a big impact. We want to be a part of a movement that changes the way people eat in this country. And we think we can be, and I think technology has a lot to do with that. That and connecting people, giving these people the tools they need and getting people become aware of what they're doing. So yeah, I think that's it. Lucy: That's awesome. Larry: Yeah. Emily that's not vague, that's wonderful. Lucy: It's an awesome mission, I just wanted to personally know how small a producer because I'm kind of a gardener. [laughter] Lucy. I have way too much food. I give it to all my neighbors. Larry: So your website is Foodzie.com. Emily: Yeah, Foodzie.com. Larry: Wonderful. Lucy: And everybody needs to go visit and eat. Emily: Check out the chocolate section and I'm sure you'll find something that'll get you to start salivating. It's a pretty dangerous category. Lucy: Well, thank you very much, Emily, for talking with us and I just want to remind listeners where they can find these podcasts. They can find it at our website, NCWIT.org and w3w3.com. Larry: You bet. Lucy: Make sure that you pass this along to others. Emily, thank you very much. Lee: Thank you, Emily. Larry: Thank you. [music] Transcription by CastingWords Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Emily OlsonInterview Summary: Like many entrepreneurs, Emily Olson saw a niche, got an idea, and ran with it. Foodzie uses technology to share great food from smaller producers with a larger audience. Release Date: June 29, 2009Interview Subject: Emily OlsonInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 17:56

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Ellen Siminoff President and CEO, Shmoop University Date: June 1, 2009 Ellen Siminoff: Shmoop University Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women & Information Technology, or NCWIT, and this is one of a continuing series of interviews that we're doing with really just outstanding women who have started IT companies. With me is Larry Nelson from W3W3.com. Hi, Larry and welcome. Larry Nelson: I am so happy to be here. This is going to be a very interesting interview. As we get into it Ellen is going to see that there's some similarities between us. Lucy: Well, that's a pretty scary thought. Larry: Yeah, it is; isn't it? Lucy: Ellen, run. Today we are interviewing Ellen Siminoff, and she is the President and CEO of Shmoop University. Now, this site is something that our listeners really must go and see. They have a great mission. Shmoop is an education Website, and their goal is to make everyone lovers of literature, history and poetry. I went there last night and started looking around, and I really like the idea of their Book Club where they review books and even have questions for teachers to use with books, and I thought it was really fascinating that people creating their content, master's degree students and Ph.D. students, really looking for great original and creative content to help students and teachers. I found a little humor on the site as well, so it really cracked me up. Shmoop guarantees better grades. There was an asterisk next to it, and it said: "not an actual guarantee." Anyway, welcome, Ellen, we're really happy to have you for this interview. Ellen Siminoff: Thanks for the great review of this site. That was great. Lucy: Well, we're really happy to have you and before we get into the entrepreneur questions, I really wanted to know how you came up with the name, "Shmoop," and what's going on with the company. Ellen: Well, I started the company with my husband. Shmoop is a Yiddish term for trying to move something forward a little bit. So, my husband's grandmother always used to say to him, "Shmoop this, shmoop that" so we're trying to move education and learning forward a little bit. Larry: Shmoop, I love it. Lucy: I love it. Down in Louisiana we used to say we were carrying somebody from here to there, even though you're actually driving them. Now, we can say we shmoop around. Larry: I'm for shmooping. Lucy: I'm for shmooping. Well so, Ellen, how did you first get into technology? You are using technology in the delivery of your company, obviously, and so our listeners would really like to know what you're looking at as particularly interesting technologies today. Ellen: I got into technology because I was really interested in media, and media became very important to technology. I started a different company with my husband many, many years ago. It was about 18 years ago, and we were distributing television programming in eastern Europe and that made me love the media industry. Then I went to the Los Angeles Times, and I started running their online Classifieds. This was really early. It was like 1994 when the Internet, and if you remember Prodigy and CompuServe and AOL were all fighting it out. I started realizing that technology could be used to deliver media in a really interesting way. Larry: Wow, that's terrific. Remember, I warned you up front that there's something that we have in common. First of all, on your Website there's so many things I like about your Website, but I am also, like you, a lover of chocolate. Ellen: All right. Larry: I'm a cheese head. I used to live in Wisconsin. Ellen: All right. Larry: And I still struggle with golf, so I think that's enough similarities, right? Ellen: Those are great similarities, but have you been shot? Larry: No, but I almost shot my dad when we were hunting once. Lucy: Have you been shot? I'm sure there's more to that story. Larry: It's on the Website. Lucy: Oh, I better go look at that part of it. Well so, Ellen, I was sitting here thinking about technology today. Do you see any particular technologies on the horizon that you think are pretty interesting? Ellen: I'm a big lover of the Kindle. I think the approach Amazon and, obviously, some others in that space have taken about taking a text book and providing a much easier way for students to get their information. I think it's fabulous. I think, first of all, we don't need to have orthopedic problems from carrying around back packs loaded with books, and second, text books are really expensive. They has to be a less expensive way to deliver the same amount of material, so I'm really excited about that one. Larry: Yeah, I am, too. Now that they've got the new, big one, I like that even more. Ellen: As I get older, the bigger print would be fine. Lucy: I see them on planes more and more now. Ellen: Yes, I actually always bring mine every time I travel because, why lug a book around? Larry: Right, you bet. Well, I get the part about technology and all, but why are you an entrepreneur, and what is it about you that makes the entrepreneur part of you tick? Ellen: Well, I think entrepreneurs are people who would be just dreadful employees... because it's chosen for us. For me, I have always sort of gone with smaller companies that I like the people and the idea. When I started Yahoo, we were just a handful of folks, and we thought we were changing the world. Hopefully, we did to some extent. I started up Fischer Frontier which subsequently became the largest search engine marketing firm when it was just a couple of guys with a really neat math algorithm. Shmoop, my husband and I came up with in our back yard. So, for me it's about the idea and the people and the excitement of creating it. The other benefit of being an entrepreneur is you have very little bureaucracy. When a decision needs to be made, you sort of look around at your four or five key people and you resolve it quickly, and that's exciting for me. Lucy: So, along your path you're a serial entrepreneur and you've had a lot of success along your path, who has influenced or supported you? Who are your role models? Ellen: Well, if it hasn't become clear, my husband has been really supportive which I think is great. We've worked together a number of times, and he's pushed me more than I probably would have pushed myself. I have phenomenal parents who basically told me dream big and we're your number one fans, whatever you want to do. So, they've been great, and I've had some terrific teachers along the way. Back to the Wisconsin thing, I had a great eighth grade teacher at Mapledale Elementary School who told me, "You might be pretty smart. Think about what you might want to do in life". I was in eighth grade, and I still remember that conversation. Lucy: Isn't it amazing that you do? That kind of influence on young people by teachers, it really sticks. Ellen: It's amazing. We actually have a page on Shmoop, a teachers' page, that we literally went to the Ph.D.s and Masters I alluded to before and all of us here at the office have said, "So which teacher influenced you the most?" We wound up with this great list of our favorite teachers and how they impacted our lives. And I think that every person who's reasonably successful can identify one of the teachers who made a big difference to them. Larry: Oh, that's fantastic. You know, you mentioned you and your husband. My wife and I, we've started 12 different companies over the years, and it's an extra little plus that as an entrepreneur you can do that. Ellen: That's great. That's inspirational. We have a few more to go. Larry: Well, OK. I'm just a kid, but... Ellen, what is the toughest thing that you have ever had to do in your career? Ellen: Oh, I think the toughest thing anyone has to do is ask someone to leave a company when that person is doing a good job, but they're somehow... morals or conduct or behavior goes against what you want your company to do. I think any CEO or hiring person will tell you, that's the hardest call you ever have to make. Lucy: And, in fact, I think we've done about 50 of these interviews, and that comes up over and over and over again, I think, along with having to leave a company you don't want to leave. Ellen: Yeah, transitions are very hard. I think transitions in life are very hard, and transitions in companies are very hard. The reality is, there's a certain number of years when you're productive to a company, and even if you're doing a good job, you reach a certain comfort level, and sometimes it makes sense to bring in some fresh blood. Lucy: I think that's right, if for no other reason that your network's been tapped out, or something else, that other people can bring in new thinking. So, this gets us into our next question. I think this notion that transitions are hard is really insightful. What other things would you tell a young person or anybody about entrepreneurship, and what kinds of advice would give them? Ellen: I think there's two things I would tell someone. The first is a practical thing, which is, do something you love, and do it with people you love or like, and all good things will come from that. I can't tell you the number of people who turn down great opportunities because their friends told them it was a bad idea, or it didn't fit in the sort of boxes that they had been taught in business school about how to evaluate an idea, or someone told them the business is going to be bad. So, you've got to, a lot of times, go with your instincts, and go with the businesses that make sense to you, and that you doing it, and with people you like, and then I would bet the percentages are in your favor. The second idea I would have for someone is a little less practical, but more of a gut instinct thing, and that is, don't worry so much. I think if you work hard, and you get a little bit lucky, and your timing is good, you will find good opportunities. If I had known how much fun I would have had doing different things, I wouldn't have worried so much along the way. Larry: Wow. Lucy: Is there a Yiddish word for, "Don't worry so much?" Ellen: No, I don't know that one, but I'll have to call my dad. Lucy: I think it could lead to a new company name. Ellen: I always think of, hakuna matata, right? Lucy: Yes, that's right. Exactly. But, I think you're right. Ellen: It's not Yiddish, but it should be. Larry: You got it. Lucy: It probably should be. Larry: Well, I've got to ask another question here that pertains to everything we've talked about so far, but we're now looking at you. What are some personal characteristics that make you a successful entrepreneur? Ellen: I think it's relentlessness, right? I think anybody's who's willing to face in the Internet world zero wages, zero revenue, you know, and a blank sheet of paper, I think yes, you have to have a certain passion, and relentlessness, and drive, and be internally focused, that you don't need someone every day telling you, "This is a great idea. You're going to do great." You've got to just have it from within and be laser-focused on executing. Lucy: I'm just writing this down. I mean, I think the laser focus is exactly right, and the relentlessness, you know, we've heard before, as well. Some people have said even, "stubborn," or... Ellen: I don't know that I would necessarily always write stubborn, because there's a fine line between being crazy and being brilliant. Lucy: That's true. Ellen: Most of the people will tell you that their original idea was not always their final idea, so you need to have a balance of having great conviction in what your doing, but being flexible with what the environment is telling you. Lucy: So, you had a very successful career starting companies, and obviously when you start a company, I'm sure you put everything into it, and give it your all, and people often want to know, well, how then do you balance that with a personal life, if, in fact, balance really exists? Ellen: Oh, I believe in balance. I think you set limits. I think that working smart is a lot better than working every hour of every day. I think being efficient matters. I've seen people take so much time to do something, where that could be done a lot quicker, and I sometimes think when you have more things to do, you're more focused about the things you have to get done. In terms of balance, you just have to. Nobody goes to their grave saying, "I wish I would have worked harder." Lucy: Absolutely. Ellen: I have a great family. I run half-marathons. I have deadly, struggling golf game, and I think the Spectaculars are the most fun, coolest organization on earth. So, you've got to get out there and do other thing, and I think you have a better approach to work when you do. Larry: That's some excellent advice. Gaining balance, or whatever that is, is one of the most difficult thing for new entrepreneurs, but they've got to somehow, as time goes along, really build that balance into their life. Ellen: Oh, you're so right. And you've gone on with your life, so it's especially... I do know couples where one of them doesn't like to come home and talk about work or the other doesn't. We just incorporate it in our lives. Lucy: There's an integration process there, I think. Ellen: Yeah. But at the same point, there are points, you know, my husband... you know, sometimes people are amazed that they'll say something to Dave, and he'll say, "Well, I don't know about this, that's in Ellen's area." And they think that all we do 100 percent of the time is only talk our business stuff, and there are sometimes many days we don't even discuss anything "businessy." Lucy: Well, that's so healthy, and also, you find things that way. Sometimes you find things when you just open up like that, that relate to the business that you never would have seen if you were just working all the time. So, that's very powerful. So, Ellen, you've achieved a lot, and we like to find out from the people we interview what's next for you. You obviously have a new company and so you'll probably be putting a lot of time into that, but anything else you'd like to share, either what's next for you, or what's next for Shmoop? Ellen: Well, I think for Shmoop, I think we've done a really good job on lit., and history and poetry. We're going to do more in civics and get some of the math and sciences up there, because I think it's really important to be able to read, write, and do arithmetic. So, we've got to add the third stool. Lucy: Well, we'd really like to talk about computing. Ellen: Oh, wow, that would be great! Lucy: Well, thank you so much. I just love your site. Larry: I love your site, and I just want to say this one thing. Lucy referred to this, but she buried it a little bit. Right off of your Website, one headline there that really caught my attention said, "Shmoop wants to make you a better lover." Lucy: Of literature. Larry: Well, then, in parenths. Lucy: Oh. Larry: "Of literature, history, poetry, and writing. I'm just getting in the complete line." Lucy: Oh, OK. Ellen: Well, you know, if you just become a better lover, that'd be OK, too, but we'd like you to like lit., history, and poetry. Larry: Oh, a fellow cheese head for sure. Thank you so much, Ellen, for joining us today. Ellen: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Larry: And by the way, you listeners out there, make sure you pass this interview on to others that you know would be interested, and they can find the entire thing, and download it at any time at ncwit.org, as well as w3w3.com. Thank you for joining us. Lucy: Thank you. Transcription by CastingWords Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Ellen SiminoffInterview Summary: Entrepreneurs are "people who would be just dreadful employees", says Ellen Siminoff. For those who go the entrepreneurship route, however, the appeal is in "the idea and the people and the excitement of creating something." Release Date: June 1, 2009Interview Subject: Ellen SiminoffInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 15:42

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Lisa Rau Co-founder and Chief Executive Officer, Confluence Date: April 27, 2009 Lisa Rau: Confluence Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders, the CEO for the National Center for Women in Information Technology, or NCWIT. Today we're interviewing Lisa Rau, the CEO of Confluence Corp., as part of our NCWIT series "The Entrepreneurial Toolbox," and Lisa's going to talk to us today about everything you want to know about working with non-profits. We thought it would be especially interesting for this series to take advantage of Lisa's extensive experience working with non-profits and how they use technology and how it applies to social entrepreneurship. So, welcome, Lisa! Lisa Rau: Thank you! I'm glad to be here. Lucy: And with me today is Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Larry Nelson: Hello, I'm happy to be here. This is going to be an exciting interview for us because while our Internet radio show is strictly business, we do integrate various things where we help support non-profits and do interviews and provide links and so on, and so I can't wait to talk to Lisa. Lucy: Well, Lisa is a real role model in computer science. She has a Ph.D. in computer science and undergraduate degrees in EE and also has been in the IT industry for over 20 years. And she has extensive experience, as I mentioned, working with non-profits and I recently had the experience to chat with Lisa about this. So, very excited to talk to you about the non-profit space! Lisa: Great! Lucy: So, Lisa, tell us a bit about Confluence. What do you do? Lisa: Well, our mission is to provide information technology support and focus, of course, on the non-profit sector, and that's a wide variety of different kinds of things that's really based on what the non-profits have been asking us to do. Lucy: How did you come to focus on non-profits? What led you into that type of business? Lisa: Well, that's a good question. Many years ago, I had met a friend and a colleague who told me about his work providing technical support to non-profits and he was describing the wonderful people and the organizations and their mission that he interacted with and how rewarding he found the work was, and so when I next found myself in between jobs, a bunch of things all came together and that's where we came up with the name "Confluence." It was a "no time like the present" kind of thing and wanting to work for myself as an entrepreneur after 15, 20 years of working for someone else, wanting to create something of value, and then I had one of my close friends and colleagues, Jeff Sullivan, agree to come on board with me. We just jumped in. Larry: That's interesting. You've got to be certainly following your heart with a bunch of passion at that same time. Lisa: Absolutely. Well, of course we did our due diligence to make sure that there was a sound business model and that there really was a need for what we were thinking of offering, but since we couldn't be the do-gooders, we thought the next best thing was to help the do-gooders do better. Larry: Well, you know, they say there's quite a movement, almost a groundswell, of people really wanting to give back to the community. Of course, they've got to make a living and everything. So, for our listeners out there, could you explain the difference between working for a non-profit versus a for-profit? Lisa: Well, it ended up being different than I expected it would be coming from the for-profit world as I did. Of course, the non-profits are really focussed on their mission, and my experience has been that they tend to be less able or interested in investing in technology. I've been doing this for over eight years now. Most non-profits are really small, also. I think 90% are under a million dollars in revenue, so the majority of these organizations are just very small, so their use of technology is more limited and they also tend to have less in-house expertise. And they don't have, for example, a CTO, so they're going to turn to other outside organizations like ours for strategic support. And tech support providers in the for-profit world, there's a role for a CTO, but we as providers to non-profits have to be more versatile and strategic to provide a wide range of advice to them. Lucy: I have a follow up question to that. I also now run into more people now who are doing what I would consider non-profit work in a for-profit business model. So, do you see much of that, Lisa, sort of like "doing well by doing good for others." Do you see that type of business model very often? Lisa: Well, there's two types of business models that I've seen, and one is the classic, more social entrepreneurship where the idea is to use the profits for social benefit, or to leverage profits made in a for-profit business for philanthropy as in the Google Foundation and the Gates Foundation and so on. But I see a real role for traditional for-profit firms to support the non-profit sector. It's a very hard business because they don't have a lot of money and they are so small, but it does allow you to both come up with a sustainable business model, because that is a requirement for for-profit businesses, which I think is a better way to address the technology needs than having non-profit technology providers that may not have to provide a sustainable service. Lucy: Listeners to our podcast series will remember that we interviewed two non-profits, Witness and Kiva and their founders, and were really excited about their use of technology in a non-profit delivery. In Witness's case, it's the use of video to expose social atrocities around the world, and Kiva is microfinance. So, Lisa, where do you see the most innovative use of IT in the non-profit space? Lisa: Well, I think those are both really good examples of innovative use of technology, but from a bang-for-the-buck perspective, I think that what those systems really do is just get into more of the cultural mainstream and raise awareness for social causes and the potential for technology to assist with social causes, rather than the bottom line amount of money, for example, that's going to go through Kiva, or the real change that's going to happen just one by one. So, I think that the opportunity for social change is much more to create an environment as part of our culture that non-profits and social-oriented ventures are worth supporting and whether it's Green or whatever your passion may be. We have seen some other innovative uses, the Kiva and Witness that you cite are certainly very well-known ones. We've done a bunch of really fun things, like one of my favorites is for the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. We created a little application where you send a nugget through on a Google Maps kind of integration across 50 states and whoever gets their little chicken nugget across the 50 states wins, which was kind of a fun use of technology. Lucy: Cute. That's cool. Larry: Right. Have you ever done anything with Ashoka? Lisa: I have interacted with Ashoka. I haven't worked for them. Our company hasn't worked for them. I know a number of people who work there, actually one of my clients is from Samaritan Inns went over there to work for them. They're wonderful leaders. Larry: Yeah. All right, now what are some of the challenges, Lisa, that non-profits should be looking out for as it relates to IT? Lisa: Well, the main one is that a lot of people offer non-profits free or a low-cost donations. Sometimes the organizations think that because it's free they should try to use the technology, and it's very much a buyer beware. The other challenge is just that they don't really have as much internal expert advise, the smaller organizations, in selecting the right technical approach or managing technical projects. So, because these are often outside the organization's expertise they can be risky. We see a lot of overpaying, simply due to a lack of technical expertise or a lack of real experienced managing technology projects. So, I think a little bit of real expertise can go a very long way, and would be a good investment for organizations trying to think strategically. Lucy: So, the biggest mistake a non-profit can make in IT is? Lisa: Well, I think probably not spending enough, being "penny wise and pound foolish," I'd think, the most common mistake. I don't know if that counts as biggest. The biggest in terms of dollars is probably choosing the wrong software system. Lucy: Probably worse is having some money and spending it poorly. Lisa: Exactly. That's a lot of that "penny wise and pound foolish" mentality. I also think not understanding the strategic importance of technology, and how with the right investments you can save money for your mission just fearing technology and not trying. Lucy: Absolutely, the case. Well, now you've worked with lots of non-profits, and now I want you to put yourself in the seat of somebody starting a non-profit. What would you do first? Lisa: Well, the first thing I'd do would be really look around to see who was doing what else. I've noticed independent of our technology focus that there's just a lot of duplication out there. A lot of people startup non-profits because they want to do something that they love, and they don't really care if someone else is already doing that. So, it's a fairly inefficient delivery system. So, I would want to make sure that my non-profit was addressing a real gap in service and dealing with real needs. I would also want to outreach to other partners, and really try to work collaboratively with the other members of the environment. Larry: Boy! Lisa, this has been a great interview, and it's really a pleasure. Since you're the expert, what is the question or so that we haven't asked that we should have asked? Lisa: Well, certainly starting a business is very, very scary. I think it was the best decision I ever made. I certainly have never regretted choosing to do something with the potential for meaning. It's been extremely gratifying from that perspective, but very scary. Even though the non-profits are a very difficult business to work for, because again they are small, it's incredibly rewarding to see what they're doing, and being a part of the wonderful works that they're doing. Lucy: So tell us, in closing, where is Confluence heading? What's the future for you? Lisa: Well, we're still growing, which is good news in this economic downturn. We're always looking for good people. We've been forming a lot more partnerships this year with other for-profit companies to provide complimentary services. The main thing from a technology end that we've been doing recently is we've been implementing a bunch of new Websites, a lot of focus on the social networking, what's the so-called web 2.0 technology? That's been a big part of what we've been doing recently. Of course, just as any business grows, we've been changing and we're looking at internal reorganization. It doesn't sound too sexy, but that's the reality of businesses as they grow. They have to change. Lucy: So, say a bit about the social networking and how non-profits can and should take advantage of that new channel. Lisa: Well, it's another one of those kind of buyer beware areas, because there is so much buzz. A lot of what we do is just explain to our clients what that really means and what their options are. A lot of them want to dive right in and have a lot of little widgets on their Website to interact with their audience, but there's no one there to monitor that or to feed it to make it a vibrant community. So, it ends up kind of a detraction. So, we're very much interested in ensuring that what gets deployed is appropriate for the environment and not a field of dreams. We have seen a lot of movement towards that. It's been a little slower, but non-profits are all about building community outreach, advocacy, education. These are all things that social networking can be very instrumental in. Larry: So, if I understood you right, it's better to have one or two widgets that you can really work with, rather than the whole group of 7-10? Lisa: Absolutely. I've even seen organizations try to start small with just say a blog, and they're not able to keep that up, because they don't realize that the technology is the easy part. It's the organizational part, where someone actually has to write the blog, and post it, and review comments, and so on, that has to be on there to keep it fresh and worthwhile. Lucy: Well, that's really true for us at NCWIT. We find that we have lots of distribution channels, and keeping the content supplied to those channels is really quite tough. It's more than a full-time job. Lisa: That's exactly what I'm talking about, and building things smartly so that they're not overrun with spam, and not insecure, and so on. Lucy: Well, so maybe in closing, let me ask this; so I'm the CEO of a non-profit, and in advising me, where would you tell me to start in technology? What would be the first thing to look at or the second thing to look at? What kinds of things do you often say to people like me, as it relates to this example? Lisa: Well, I'm a very big fan of a process that we do, not just self-serving there, but it's a strategic technology assessment that comes in and interviews all of the stakeholders and inventories all of the assets. That process can give the organization a complete understanding of where the opportunities are, so they that can then prioritize them and come up with a specific plan for the next couple of years. That really helps a new organization to get started. Lucy: That sounds like a good process. Larry: Yeah. It sure does. By the way, starting in March 2001, it's kind of like starting in March 2009, economic wise. Lisa: Exactly. Lucy: Oh, starting over. Yeah. I got it. It took my brain a little while, but I did finally get that. Well, Lisa thanks very much. It was great talking to you. Lisa: Thank you. It was wonderful! Larry: It was a pleasure. Once again, Lucy, I don't know how you and your team line up all these magnificent people, but NCWIT.org, you've got some wonderful connections and interviews, but lots of information. I must say that it's a pleasure for w3w3.com to host, and also to have a special channel for all of these interviews where you can tune-in 24/7. Make sure you tell your friends about it, and by the way, Tweet about it if you would like. Lisa: Tweet about it, only if Lisa says it's OK. Man 1: Is it OK, Lisa? Lisa: Sure. Larry: All right. Lucy: OK. Thank you very much, Lisa. Lisa: OK. Thank you both. Lucy: That was great. We really do appreciate it, and I'll be in touch. Larry: All Right. Lisa: OK. Transcription by CastingWords Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Lisa RauInterview Summary: Lisa Rau wanted to create something rewarding, something of her own, something of value when she created Confluence. As she discusses here, entrepreneurship is scary but incredibly satisfying: "with the risks come the rewards." Release Date: April 27, 2009Interview Subject: Lisa RauInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 15:53