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In this episode of The Care Ministry Podcast, Laura sits down with Shannon Pugh, care pastor at Irving Bible Church, to explore the intentionality behind effective pastoral care. Shannon shares her journey from special needs ministry to leading a cohesive care strategy that spans benevolence, mental health support, and more. The conversation touches on the challenges of addressing diverse needs within the church, the importance of boundaries in care ministry, and innovative ways to connect with and support those in need. This episode offers practical insights and encouragement for ministry leaders striving to build communities of hope and purpose. Quotes "Caregiving is a gift, but it's also a responsibility that can deeply impact us if we don't take the time to reflect, debrief, and seek support." — Laura "You've got to get to where you trust God to fix problems because, in care ministry, your entire job is for people to come to you with their problems and ask for help." — Shannon Pugh "Pastors go wide; deacons go deep." — Shannon Pugh "If someone tells one person, that should be the only person they have to tell. There should then be a pipeline." — Shannon Pugh "We need to know our lane. Otherwise, we're spread too thin and not partnering with anyone well." — Shannon Pugh Resources Care Ministry Cohort Episode 41 | The Care Ministry Cohort Connect with Hope Made Strong Website: HopeMadeStrong.org Socials: Facebook – Instagram – Twitter – YouTube
It's our weekly round up! The best of the week from our National radio show THE PICKUP. Today's ep is unlike anything we have had to record before and are heartbroken by the decision that has been made for the show. Every week we are joined by our radio co-host Mitch Churi at 3pm on the KIIS Network. You can listen live on iHeart radio, or catch up here each week!For more follow @THEPICKUP on socials. What's on the show Mitch has learnt a something new late in life What did you eat Can you name your child a dog name? Our uber ratings exposed Marlie is breaking up with Laura You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
It's our weekly round up! The best of the week from our National radio show THE PICKUP. Today's ep is unlike anything we have had to record before and are heartbroken by the decision that has been made for the show. Every week we are joined by our radio co-host Mitch Churi at 3pm on the KIIS Network. You can listen live on iHeart radio, or catch up here each week!For more follow @THEPICKUP on socials. What's on the show Mitch has learnt a something new late in life What did you eat Can you name your child a dog name? Our uber ratings exposed Marlie is breaking up with Laura You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Last week I introduced you to a wonderful guest who is helping us all connect to our divinity. Her name was Emma Rowena. Today I have a very special treat for us. I am going to read a few passages from her book, You. Me. And All That We Are. Meditation Coaching Schedule Time with Thom (Complimentary consultation) Connecting with Laura: You. Me. And All That We Are on Amazon Become a Super-Fan of the Show Support ZEN commuter and get access to patron bonuses THANKS FOR LISTENING! Thanks again for listening to the show! If it has helped you in any way, please share it using the social media buttons you see on the page. Also, reviews for the podcast on iTunes are extremely helpful, they help it reach a wider audience. The more positive reviews the higher in the rankings it goes. Of course that means more peace in the world. So please let me know what you think. I read ever one of them. Did you enjoy the podcast?
Is sobriety an all-or-nothing proposition in dentistry? In today's Monday Morning Episode, we've brought on Laura Nelson to uncover the nuanced conversation around alcohol use in the dental industry. Laura challenges the common perception that only those classified as "alcoholics" need to consider sobriety. Through personal insights, she stresses the importance of making conscious, sober decisions and explains how even social drinking can impact professional performance and practice culture. Dive deep into the pressures dentists face that often push them towards alcohol, and learn why open conversations about this topic need to happen more frequently and with less stigma.As the discussion unfolds, Laura passionately advocates for a supportive work environment, highlighting how unaddressed stress can erode a team's ability to thrive. She sheds light on the critical role leadership plays in maintaining mental well-being by demonstrating vulnerability. By setting the stage for honest, stigma-free dialogues, leaders can foster a space that encourages healthier lifestyle choices. The episode wraps up with actionable insights, including how individuals can connect with Laura and her community at Sober Life Rocks, to access peer support and resources for alcohol-related challenges.What You'll Learn in This Episode:Understanding the spectrum of alcohol use beyond alcoholism.The impact of alcohol use on dental practice culture and performance.How to cultivate a supportive environment for discussing mental health.The role of leadership vulnerability in promoting workplace well-being.Strategies for addressing stress and burnout in the dental industry.Ways to engage with communities focused on sober living.Tune in to uncover empowering perspectives that can redefine your approach to sobriety and well-being in dentistry!Sponsors:CareStack: Modern, Secure, Cloud-Based Dental Software for Growing Your Practice! With state-of-the-art features including Online Appointments, Integrated Payments, Text Reminders and more. Click the link here for a special offer: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/carestack/You can reach out to Laura Nelson here:Website: https://soberliferocks.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/soberliferocksprofessionalsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/soberliferocksdental/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@soberliferocksMentions and Links: People:Dr. Brett KesslerIf you want your questions answered on Monday Morning Episodes, ask me on these platforms:My Newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/The Dental Marketer Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2031814726927041Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)Michael: Hey, Laura. So talk to us. What's one piece of advice you can give us this Monday morning. Laura: You don't have to be an alcoholic to stop drinking. Michael: Interesting. Can you expand a little bit more on that? Laura: Yes, for sure. I was one who was the typical casual drinker through my life, conferences, events, mommy wine culture, growing up, the whole thing.And couldn't see life without alcohol because I thought to stop drinking, first of all, I wouldn't have fun. Second of all, I had to hit rock bottom. Like I would, didn't consider myself an alcoholic. And I think there's a lot of people who are in that same space that I was in. But I wasn't educated in this area, and so it's important for me to talk about this because I want to make a difference in dental because there's a lot of people who choose not to drink, who feel the pressure to drink alcohol, and don't realize that you can choose not to drink, and it's okay.We can normalize sober choices in our industry. So. Alcoholism is not a yes or no. it's a spectrum. And if we understand wherever you are on the spectrum, it's your decision, what you want to do with your life and it's everybody else's decision. And we need to stop peer pressuring each other into the need to drink alcohol.Michael: Interesting. So on the spectrum here, where do you kind of see most in the industry as far as when it comes to like events and things like that? Laura: Sure. Yeah. So, Alcohol use disorder, if you've ever drank for the wrong reason, drank too much, or woke up in the morning and regretted drinking, you are on the spectrum, because alcohol is an addictive substance and it doesn't usually serve us well.long term, right? So if you ever regretted drinking at any point or drink for the wrong reason, you're on the spectrum. Now, where is everybody in our industry all over? But the thing about alcohol is it is the number one self prescribed way to celebrate or numb feelings or emotions.And it is the most standardized use of drugs that we use our life. we celebrate with wine, we go out for champagne, we have beer tours, we go on wine tours, we go to conferences, it's all about alcohol. So it's so prevalent in our life that when somebody is questioning their use their,relationship with alcohol, or they're at events and they feel the pressure to drink, that's where it goes too far in the spectrum where we're really pushing in on each other.So, In our industry specifically we have an issue in the sense that we have lots of people who are licensed professionals who worry about their license who Have a lot of stress in their lives running practices and alcohol is where we tend to lean When we're dealing with the hard stuff and so, you know, I would say for that regard.There's probably a few who are secretly having the discussion in their head, based off of what they have in their life Michael: What psychological barriers do you think prevent? Practice owners or dentists from admitting to or seeking help alcohol use as a coping mechanism And how can leaders effectively dismantle those barriers?Laura: Yeah So the number one reason isas a society for a long time, it's been something that you hide if you have concerns about your relationship with an addictive substance, with alcohol specifically, in the past, there was a stigma around if you were in recoveryit was real, but it's not like that anymore, Overcoming an addiction, especially with alcohol, it is a personal battle that many people do privately, and we're already shaming ourselves enough when you are like, I don't understand why other people can drink and don't have a problem, but I do, and it's already something you're beating yourself up about.And then as a society and in our industry and with people in our circle. there's the shame of like, what are people going to think about me? What are people going to question? and so it's just, prevalent and everywhere. it's such a personal decision and conversation and a lot has to do with the shame around it and the fear.Michael: Okay. So then when it comes to that, especially when it comes to the burnout and stress and your experience, how does unaddressed stress and burnout. Silently erode the culture and performance of a practice over time. Laura: Oh, the fact that we can and we do go to other ways to forget about or numb the bad stuff Doesn't have us deal with the actual issue at hand. So stress depression suicidal thoughts Yeah. you know, All of the things that we deal with as humans, because at the end of the day, whether you're a dentist, a hygienist or a receptionist, you're human. And if we are using a substance to numb the pain, what ultimately happens is we're not dealing with the true issue and we're not dealing with the real emotion.And because we're numbing the pain with a substance that is addictive. Everybody will get addicted to alcohol at one point or another. When do you get addicted? Depends on so many variables. But when we know that we're leaning in to using the alcohol for the wrong reason and not actually dealing with the true stuff going on, that's when it becomes a problem.Michael: What would be using alcohol for the right reason then? Laura: well, To be honest I could sit on a soapbox now and tell you how alcohol is not good for us, but there are people who are in their head right now, they're like, Oh gosh Laura's, reading my mind, right?Having a glass of champagne to celebrate a wedding, you know, having a one glass of wine with a friend, once in a while, alcohol is it's been in our society forever. It's not going away. But if you start with one and now you're, instead of one glass of wine, you're a bottle of wine.Instead of one glass of champagne, you did drinks before you went to the wedding and at the wedding, and then you're post drinking, like there's lots of, we all have stories, right? But research shows the first 20 minutes of alcohol is fun. The first 20 minutes of alcohol, you have the endorphins, you have the dopamine.It's great. But then your body suffers for the next two to three hours. if you're drinking for the 20 minutes and you recognize the next two to three hours and your body is recovering from every glass of alcohol that you have, right? So I could talk about where alcohol is not actually serving you.But if you're using it to numb the pain, if you're using it to get away from true emotions, then that's where I would question why you're drinking the alcohol. Michael: Yeah. Cause I've always understood it in the sense of nutrition, right? Protein is, one gram is four carbs. One gram is four fats.One gram is nine calories, right? But alcohol, one gram is seven and our body doesn't utilize it, right? It doesn't need it for any building blocks or anything like that. So we're just literally poisoning our body, uh, to the sense of that But now we're talking about the psychological part and mental health part, which is increasingly important.Laura: Now, when it comes to this, What are the long term psychological and cultural implications, maybe in a practice that ignores mental health issues, particularly around burnout and depression? Alcohol use. not to get extreme, but we know suicide is a significant issue in our industry.Depression is a significant issue in our industry. And alcohol is usually tied to, a lot of the problems that people have. And soWhen you're suffering, people have a glass of wine when you're upset, let's have a drink.Let's meet over the bar and talk about it and have a drink. And so it's just that it's used so much, and that it's pushed so much. It's just our societal norm to lean into alcohol. I mean, I went to the doctor recently and he's like, how much are you drinking before I stopped? And, I told him what I was drinking.He's like, that's normal. That's not normal. Like we shouldn't normalize that alcohol is our friend. And so when it comes to the stress in the practice, the realities of what's going on, we need to recognize that that is an issue in itself, working on the depression, the stress, the financial issues, your relationships, your whatever it is.if you're band aiding it with alcohol, using that as the crutch to get through life, that is the problem, and the longer you do that, the higher chance you have of bigger problems in the long run. Michael: Interesting. So then how do you ensure. That discussions about alcohol use in the workplace go beyond surface level awareness and truly shift the mindset and behaviors of your team and leaders.Laura: Yep. My bandwagon, my thing I talk about is alcohol others. It's, suicidal thoughts. It's depression. It's divorce. It's financial problems. Like we all have life things. We all have our own dark places, whatever it is. What we need to build and can build is an environment where people can just be okay with what they have.we know our own secrets. We know what's going on in our head. We know the things that have happened in our life, the things we've done. And we always compare the worstof us to the best of other people. Right. The Instagram side of what other people are.If we could actually just build an environment, build a team where people can just have the space to be okay, to communicate their issue, to be allowed to feel, we are humans, you know, no matter who's on your team, we all have real things going on. And if you can build a space that it's okay to Be transparent, be vulnerable and allow somebody to be able to talk about their thing, whatever it is.And so like for me with alcohol, my whole goal in this conversation is just to get people talking. Because if we can't get people talking, we're not going to help people. And so normalizing the okayness to talk about whatever your issue is. Find people who have dealt with what you're dealing with and lean into that because The more we can fill the gap between people who need help and the people who can give help By getting rid of that gap of shame and fear and allowing people to just be vulnerable and be real will change lives and change your practice Michael: Yeah, I agree getting people to talk about it is huge, then I feel like there's that fact of like vulnerability, especially if you're a leader.So I guess, in addressing alcohol use and burnout, do you balance vulnerability and leadership strength, especially when,you may be struggling with similar issues Laura: as a leader. Your team is going to follow you if you set examples, right? So being vulnerable is a completely agreat leadership skill to be able to say, I don't know.Now, I'm not saying that as a doctor, you need to tell everything going on in your private life and in your brain and all of the stress that you have, but To be vulnerable with your team to say, you know, I have some mental health issues. I have some personal concerns I'm dealing with. I have some things and be real with your team.They're going to respect you follow you that much more than trying to fake. that you have it all together because nobody has it all together. And then going and getting the help that you need. Like again, when you can lean into getting help, you can see how it improves in your life as a doctor and as a leaderand then be able to offer that to your team, talk about turnover that we have if your team knows that you really trust and believe in them and you're vulnerable and you're real and you care about them, they're not going anywhere, They're going to be on your team forever.So just be real. It's all we really want. Michael: Yeah. And so that shows strength. Okay. Gotcha. So then, in your work, Laura, how have you seen unresolved personal struggles with alcohol among dentists affect their ability to deliver patient care and are there any interventions or what interventions have proven most effective in these situations?Laura: Yeah, the reality is when I started this journey of sharing my storymy story is a little bit easier than a dentist and a hygienist, cause I'm not licensed. So I can stand on the mountaintops and say, I'm happy to be sober. And this is why I chose it for my life. but for a dentist, there's a real reality of, your team.Your license your patients. And so, the reality is there's a lot of licensed professionals in our industry struggling, struggling with mental health issues, struggling with addiction issues, and they're not getting the help they need. I actually have a hygienist that I'm affiliated with. she was more worried about losing her hygiene license than she was about getting a DUI when she was actively drinking because.That's her livelihood. Many team members are dentists. We know that they're suffering and that's our livelihood. If our dentist has to go to recovery or rehabilitation or, take time out of the practice, what about our jobs? Right. And so it's the reality of what's going on. Luckily I've become really good friends with the incoming ADA president, Brett Kessler, Dr.Kessler, who that is what he wants to change for our industry isto allow and have support for. Licensed professionals. They're bringing in a third party company where you can actually call and get help. You can have real conversations because our jobs are our jobs, but our life is way more important, right?So I'm hoping that the worst cases that I know and the things I've seen, we can make a difference by just starting the conversation. Michael: Awesome. Laura, thank you so much for your time. And if anyone has further questions, you can definitely find her on the dental marketer Facebook group, or where can they reach out to you directly?Laura: Sober life rocks that is our new Community and group sober life rocks find me on all the social channels or just come to our website sober life rocks Michael: Awesome. So that's going to be in the show notes below and laura Thank you so much for being with me on this monday morning episode.Laura: Thank you
Last week I introduced you to a wonderful guest who is helping us all connect to our divinity. Her name was Emma Rowena. Today I have a very special treat for us. I am going to read a few passages from her book, You. Me. And All That We Are. Meditation Coaching Schedule Time with Thom (Complimentary consultation) Connecting with Laura: You. Me. And All That We Are on Amazon Become a Super-Fan of the Show Support ZEN commuter and get access to patron bonuses THANKS FOR LISTENING! Thanks again for listening to the show! If it has helped you in any way, please share it using the social media buttons you see on the page. Also, reviews for the podcast on iTunes are extremely helpful, they help it reach a wider audience. The more positive reviews the higher in the rankings it goes. Of course that means more peace in the world. So please let me know what you think. I read ever one of them. Did you enjoy the podcast?
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit laurathomas.substack.comOne of the things that came out of the 2023 Reader Survey was that you wanted a Q+A/AMA of the pod. So we're giving it a shot. Now our monthly pod schedule will consist of 1-2 guest episodes a month, with 1 Q+A with myself and Lucy. Guest episodes will be free for everyone to listen to, with the Q+A episodes being a perk for paid subscribers. In these episodes, we'll be answering the more juicer questions… and the answers may be a little on the spicy side! We're sharing a trailer of today's episode with free subscribers to give you a taste of what you can expect. And we'll always make sure there's something in there for everyone - whether you're a parent or a nutrition student, or just here for rice cake drama (IYKYK).Today I'm joined by CIHAS audio engineer and host of the podcast , Dearlove, to answer listener and reader questions. Tune in to hear us:* Revive and old classic (DSMG fans, this one's for you!)* Share non-lame-gym-bro snack ideas for pre/post workout* Explain why a certain gut health shot is a lot like a bad night out* Talking about why it's important to be calm in the face of a new medical diagnosis rather than falling into diet culture* Offering some advice towards handling the challenges of co-parenting with someone whose views on diet culture are very different from your own* And lastly, why you should ignore influencers who boast about their kids eating stilton and sushiAgain paid subscribers can set up their own private RSS feed to listen to paid-only episodes in their favourite podcast player by following these instructions.This was a super fun episode to create and I know you'll love it too!Find out more about Lucy here.Follow her on Instagram here and here.Follow here on Substack Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.TranscriptLaura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast, where we talk about food, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas. I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter.Lucy: And I'm . I am the audio engineer for CIHAS podcast normally, and I also host the food podcast, . Uh, I'm delighted to be joining you for this, Laura. This is really fun.Laura: So we're mixing it up a little bit today to answer some listener questions that you all sent in. I've asked Lucy to join me so that I'm not just sat here talking to myself, but Lucy, I actually have a little surprise for you that I didn't tell you about. So I'm putting you on the spot, but don't worry, It's hopefully a fun surprise. It's not high stakes. But I don't know if you know, but I used to have another podcast called Don't Salt My Game. And at the beginning…Lucy: I'm aware of it.Laura: Oh yeah, you've heard of it. Okay, that's good. That's a good start. At the beginning of every episode, I used to ask my guests some quick fire questions. So I'm just like, rapid speed, throw them out and justLucy: I remember this.Laura: Just throw whatever comes to the top of your head, okay? So it's meant to be fun.Lucy: Okay, I'm on the spot. I'm in the hot seat. I'm ready.Laura: You ready? Alright. Here we go. Tacos or pizza?
Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast. This week I'm talking to specialist diabetes dietitian Erin Phillips about all things insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. Erin shares some background on what happens in the body that leads to type 2 diabetes, why ‘prediabetes' is a dubious diagnosis and the things the keto-bros often leave out this conversation. We talk about why sugar and higher weight aren't the cause of type 2 diabetes, and how there is so much more we can do to care for diabetes outside of cutting carbs and losing weight, especially if you have a background of an ED or disordered eating. Lots of you have requested more content around this topic - let me know what questions you still have after listening to this episode!Find out more about Erin's work here.Follow her on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTROErin: I think sometimes a diagnosis of prediabetes or type 2 diabetes can be a traumatic event, especially when it's not in the presence of someone caring and that you trust. Or especially if you have a family history of diabetes where you've seen…maybe some scary things. Which I will – now that I said that – I will add that it's, that's not a definite outcome either, those scary things, yeah.But it can be, that can be really stressful, and that's the opposite of what is helpful for blood sugars.Laura: Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast where we talk about appetite, bodies and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter.Today's guest is registered dietitian Erin Phillips. Erin's work is grounded in health at every size and fat positive nutrition. She has an advanced certification as a diabetes specialist and has spent most of her career working with people living with all types of diabetes. She has a private practice that focuses primarily on the intersection of diabetes and eating disorders. She works with people living with diabetes through individual counselling, as well as providing consultation to clinicians looking to be more grounded and confident in supporting their clients and patients with co-occurring diagnoses of diabetes and eating disorders. So I've had a lot of feedback from newsletter readers and people who listen to the podcast saying that you'd like more information about weight-inclusive approaches to so-called prediabetes – which we'll get into in a minute – insulin resistance and elevated glucose levels as well as type 2 diabetes. Most of the advice out there centers on carbs. So I was excited to talk to Erin about why these approaches are not only unhelpful for a lot of folks, but how they can be harmful. And why you don't need to get sucked into diet culture to care for yourself. In this episode, we discuss why type 2 diabetes isn't caused by too much sugar or having a bigger body, why pre-diabetes is a fake diagnosis, and why you don't need to cut out carbs to manage your blood sugar. I'm so excited for you to hear this episode. But before we get to Erin, I want to remind you that the Can I Have Another Snack? universe is entirely listener and reader supported. If you get something out of the work that we do here, please help support us by becoming a paid subscriber. It's £5 a month or £50 for the year. And as well as getting you loads of cool perks, you help guarantee the sustainability of this newsletter, have a say in the work that we do here and help ensure I can keep delivering deeply researched pieces that provide a diet culture-free take on hot nutrition topics like ultra processed foods, the Zoe app, and the deep dive on folic acid and folate that I just did recently.All of those you can read at laurathomas.substack.com if you haven't already. And if you're not totally sold yet then maybe this lovely review that I got recently will help convince you. So one reader wrote: “I feel so lucky that I found your work around the same time I started feeding my kid real food. It saved me so much angst and has allowed me to relax and really enjoy seeing him explore eating. Your essays on sugar especially was a game changer. I'm sure it won't always be plain sailing, but I feel so much more prepared to ride the waves of his changing appetite. and tastes as he grows, accepting them as a feature and not a bug.So hopefully he can have a much more relaxed relationship to food than I had for a long time. And I pay my £5 a month because I so value the work you put into your writing and think it's worth paying for. There's a lot of free advice out there, but I never know what I can trust. This is such a safe haven.”So yeah, it's £5 a month or £50 for the year. You can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com or check out the show notes for this episode. And if you can't stretch to a paid subscription right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk for a comp subscription. No questions asked. You don't need to justify yourself. Just put ‘Snacks' in the subject line. This is actually going to be our last podcast of the year. I'll be back in your ears in January with brand new guests. Paid subscribers will continue to hear from me in your inboxes and in the group chat, where I'm going to be holding space for all the venting and screaming at diet culture shit that gets dredged up over the holidays and into January. If you'd like to join us, you can sign up at LauraThomas.substack.com. Otherwise I'll speak to you in January. Okay, team. Over to Erin. MAIN EPISODE:Alright, Erin. Can you please start by telling us a bit more about you and the work that you do?Erin: Yeah. I am a registered dietitian. Well, in the United States, based in, um, the Seattle, Washington…I was gonna say, the ‘state of Washington'! And I'm also a certified diabetes care and education specialist. It used to be a certified diabetes educator and they wanted to add more letters. So I'm in private practice and I focus on working with people with diabetes and eating disorders at the same time, or people who had a history of an eating disorder and then were recently diagnosed with diabetes but don't want like It wouldn't be helpful or safe for them to go to just any diabetes educator.So those are the folks that I work with.Laura: Okay, so you're kind of working at that intersection between eating disorder care and diabetes care. And I think, like, what's important to highlight, which people might not be...aware of or familiar with is the idea that people who have type 2 diabetes, I would say in particular, but all forms of diabetes are at a heightened risk of disordered eating and eating disorders. And does that relationship…? No, it doesn't go the other way, does it?Erin: I think it does.Laura: You think it does?Erin: I think it does. There isn't a lot of research on it, but clinically, I absolutely see that.Laura: Okay. That's interesting. Erin: And eating disorders and gestational diabetes. I was talking with a colleague about this, that we see people with a history of, of an eating disorder, it feels like are at much higher risk of gestational diabetes.But the research…I don't, I haven't looked into the research on that, but we definitely see it clinically.Laura: Yeah, that's an interesting observation that you've noticed. So, you use this term diabetes educator. We don't have that here so it might be helpful to just kind of explain a little bit about what that is and then maybe we can unpack what exactly we're talking about here when we talk about diabetes and sort of associated terms.Erin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for clarifying that. I love talking to people in other countries to learn about like, what do things look like there? So, a diabetes educator, I know they have them in the States and in Canada, maybe Australia, but basically what it is, is...Laura: Just to clarify, like, okay, in case my, like...dietetics colleagues are all like yelling at me right now. We do have dieticians that specialise in diabetes, but it's like the diabetes educator title is kind of a, like a bolt on right to your, your like baseline nutrition training. Is that right?Erin: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So here to become a. a certified diabetes care and education specialist – that's such a mouthful! You, yeah, you need, I think it's 2000 hours of working with people with diabetes after you've become, become a dietitian or you can be a social worker, you can be a pharmacist, you can be a nurse. There's lots of nurses that are diabetes educators. So you get those practice hours, you get continuing, I don't know how many hours of continuing education a lot. And then you take an exam, right? Then it's like, well, at least here, like the dietitian renewal where every five years you renew by getting enough continuing education credits.Laura: Okay, so it's safe to say you know a lot of stuff about diabetes.Erin: Yes, I think so, yeah.Laura: It's kind of your thing. So, I really wanted to talk to you specifically about type 2 diabetes today because, 1) there seems to be a lot of confusion about it. 2) It kind of gets bundled up with a lot of anti-fat bias and carb-phobia and diet culture. And then 3), it's something that listeners of the podcast and readers of the newsletter have requested that we talk about. Would you mind starting by just telling us what exactly type 2 diabetes is, and how it relates to concepts like prediabetes and insulin resistance? So that's a big question. Where feels like the best place to start?Erin: I think actually starting with insulin resistance, because I think of that as kind of an umbrella and then prediabetes and type 2 diabetes fall underneath that umbrella. Yeah. So, insulin resistance is a term that means…so all humans have glucose floating around in their blood at all times. That is the main source of fuel. It's so funny to look at you while I'm talking about this because I'm like, you know this! But anyway, all humans have glucose floating around in the blood. It's our main source of fuel for the body. And then for glucose to get into our cells, we need insulin. And I always use the analogy of: insulin is the key that unlocks the cell to let the glucose in. And so insulin resistance is where that key gets a little, like, sticky or…kind of like the key to my car right now that I have to wriggle it the just the right way. So it can take a little bit longer for the glucose to get into the cell. It still happens but it just takes a little bit longer.So that is insulin resistance and that is one of the key features of both ‘prediabetes' and type 2 diabetes. Often, when I say ‘prediabetes', I do bunny ears or air quotes because it's a misunderstood term and we can totally get into that later. But so type 2 diabetes is where a body has either lived with insulin resistance long enough or something else has happened that has made, in addition to insulin resistance, glucose levels get high enough in the blood to meet this diagnostic criteria.And we've actually…this is something I love sharing with people because often type 2 diabetes is just like, all we focus on is insulin resistance, but there's actually at least 10 other changes in the body that lead to elevated glucose levels that are going on in addition to insulin resistance.Laura: Okay, before we go on, I want to actually reverse and back up a little bit here, because…so you talked about how we have glucose in our bloodstreams that needs to get into our cells all the time.That's like everybody, always – even if you're like a keto bro. What I just wanted to make really clear for anyone who's totally new to these conversations is that glucose…it gets into our bloodstream from the food that we eat and it's a sugar, right? So I think those are two important points to clarify, that we consume food, it gets broken down and digested and absorbed across the gut lumen. And that's what raises our blood glucose levels. And then insulin is the hormone that's secreted by the pancreas that unlocks the door to the cell, to let glucose move into the cell, so we have energy, so we can do things, so we can go about our business as being humans. Sometimes what can happen is that the door gets a little rusty, or the key gets a little rusty, and it's harder for that insulin to get into the cell. Is that like a fair summary of... Wow. What's going on? Erin: That was beautiful. I was nodding furiously.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like I know something about this! Right. So then can you tell us a little, like – I think you alluded to this – but maybe speak to it a little more to how the kind of the cells get rusty and how it's harder to shift insulin into the cells.Can you talk to us about what happens next? Maybe some of the symptoms people might experience and then what's going on physiologically as well.Erin: Yeah. So when a body is experiencing those like rusty cell doors, there's a lot of different hormones that are actually involved in not only glucose regulation or blood sugar regulation, but just metabolism.So glucose regulation is just one part of metabolism. And when I say metabolism, I mean using energy from food and turning that energy into energy for the body and then using energy to the body.Laura: Yeah, thank you for clarifying that because this is something I come up against a lot where like metabolism is used as this kind of catch-all phrase to mean how quickly your body burns energy or it's like this really diet culture-y kind of thing.But when you and I are talking about it... I think we're talking about all the biochemical processes that are going on inside your body, all these cascades of reactions and like how a nutrient that we ingest in food or in a supplement winds its way into our body and becomes part of these chemical reactions that are going on, like, deep inside our tissues.Erin: Yep. Yeah, that good old Krebs cycle. So when the cell door gets rusty, that's a big kind of flag for the body, I guess you could say, for the metabolic process. So, I think you mentioned the pancreas already. So the pancreas is the organ in the body that produces the hormone insulin, along with other hormones. When the pancreas notices the cell doors getting rusty, the pancreas will say, Oh, that's cool. I got this. And we'll start producing more and more insulin because the signal that the pancreas is getting is from the cells. The cells are saying, we're not getting the glucose that we're wanting, that we need, that we need to survive or not getting it as quickly or as much. And so then the pancreas starts producing more and more insulin.Laura: So it's trying to, it's getting the message that there's not enough insulin to, to get the glucose from the bloodstream into the cell so it starts to produce more. And can you maybe speak to the impact that this can have on the pancreas? Is it helpful to explain that a little bit?Erin: Yeah, yeah, I think so, because I think that's also something that people don't think about or aren't explained. Yeah. So the beta cells are the cells in the pancreas that produce insulin, and as they produce more and more insulin, they start to, after... I should say after decades of producing more and more insulin, those beta cells start to kind of poop out.Laura: Yeah, they get exhausted.Erin: Yeah. That's a better word.Laura: Crap out, poop out, exhaustion. Yeah, like ultimately they're working really hard for a really long time and that takes a toll, I think is what we're saying.Erin: Yeah, they start to go on strike, like they're doing the work of more…Laura: Like the teachers and the nurses and the doctors and the train drivers and yeah, we're having a lot of strikes here at the moment.So yeah, it's almost as though governments are failing globally, right? Almost.Erin: Yeah, you have to laugh because otherwise you cry! So the pancreas starts to get exhausted, in the research that's called beta cell exhaustion or beta cell failure. So the pancreas isn't able to produce quite as much insulin anymore.And after decades and decades and decades, the pancreas will not be able to produce enough insulin to meet the needs of the body. And that's when I say, store bought insulin works really well for that.Laura: Store bought! I love it. I love it because to me that just feels like a much kinder non-judgmental framing of what I think is…often a condition that is attached with a lot of shame and judgment. Like, yeah, there's, there's a real narrative that if you get to the point where you need the store bought insulin, that that's a failure.And there's a lot of research and a lot of conversations at the moment about this idea around ‘remission' and, you know, ‘reversing diabetes' and, and all of those kinds of things, which we're going to speak to a little bit in a minute, but I think that just adds so much to the shame of needing the store bought insulin. So yeah, that just feels like a really kind kind of framing around that. So let's see, we've talked a little bit about the mechanisms whereby we find it harder to get glucose into the cells over a long, long, long period of time that can kind of exhaust the pancreas, which means that we might need to get that store bought insulin. But there's kind of a wide spectrum between, like, the cells starting to get rusty and getting to the point where you might need insulin...endogenous? Exogenous! Exogenous insulin.Erin: That's why I say store bought!Laura: Store bought, yes. And I think that's where maybe this idea of like prediabetes comes in. And we've, you've talked about how that's maybe not the most helpful label.I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there's a period where somebody might have some insulin resistance, might have elevated blood glucose levels. But it's not considered high enough for a type 2 diabetes diagnosis. So could you explain what's going on there and why that's a contested term?Erin: Yeah, yeah. So if we think about a timeline of a body experiencing insulin resistance, the first thing that will happen is the insulin resistance And then the next thing that will happen…I shouldn't say will, that's the biggest thing that I don't like about the term pr diabetes is this, that it, it makes us think that it will happen.So what could happen, a body experiences insulin resistance. What could happen is that their glucose levels start to increase to a level where they meet the prediabetes diagnostic criteria. And then, the assumption with the term prediabetes is that that means eventually, unless you do something, like in big, bold, scary letters, that eventually, your body will meet the diagnostic criteria for type 2 diabetes.But what research shows is that that's not, that's not the case. I'm maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.Laura: No, I know. That's absolutely…I think it's a really important point. And so I have, and Erin, you can tell me if this isn't quite right, but my understanding is that progression from prediabetes to type 2 diabetes is less than 2% per year or less than 10% in 5 years.And I also have another statistic that 59% of people with prediabetes return to normal blood glucose values between 1 and 11 years with no treatment at all. Does that corroborate with your understanding? .Erin: Yeah, yeah, I recently was looking into this research and that sounds like exactly what I found. And it really depends on where you look and what study you look at and what population they were looking at. But the, the biggest takeaway for me was that it's not…Laura: It's not a done deal.Erin: Yeah, someone's body can just be in that prediabetes range forever or um, either forever or they can go back to below the prediabetes range that it…by focusing on the blood glucose values, we're looking at a symptom and we're not really looking at what's going on underneath.And so it's, I find that less, less helpful for that reason.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. So I think what we're saying is that prediabetes is somewhat of a dubious diagnosis, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this too, but my sense is that like, giving that label can create a lot of shame and create stigma.It freaks people out, is my... experience of working with clients who their doctors have flagged that they have elevated blood sugar levels, let's say, and then….we know that stress and anxiety is not great for blood sugar management, so like, I mean, yeah, do you have anything to add to that? Like, what are your thoughts on that?Erin: That's exactly what I see in my practice and what I saw when I worked in a GP's office as well, that people are freaked out by either, either one of those labels and…yeah, stress and worry and anxiety and trauma. I think sometimes a diagnosis of prediabetes or type 2 diabetes can be a traumatic event, especially when it's not in the presence of someone caring and that you trust, or especially if you have a family history of diabetes where you've seen maybe some scary things, which I will – now that I said that – I will add that it's, that's not a, what's the word? That's not like a definite outcome either of those scary things. But it can be, yeah, it can be really stressful and that's the opposite of what is helpful for blood sugars.Laura: Yeah. Tell us a little about what the difference between a ‘prediabetes' diagnosis is versus a type 2 diabetes diagnosis? Is it just a difference of the level of sugar in the blood?Is it, is there a factor of time or like, is time factored into that? Like how long it's elevated for? Can you maybe speak to how, you know, you go from ‘prediabetes' as it were to type 2 diabetes?Erin: Yeah, that's a really good question. The way that I think about it is just in the diagnostic criteria, which is for a type 2 diabetes diagnosis, your blood sugar needs to get so high in the States, we usually diagnose it based on an A1c.So an A1c is usually what we use in the States to diagnose both prediabetes and type 2 diabetes. And here a type 2 diabetes is diagnosed at 6.5 and prediabetes is diagnosed at 5.7 up to 6.4. So ours is actually lower than yours in the UK and lower than Canada and lower than the rest of the world, basically.Laura: I feel like that's probably a really important and intentional thing, and we could probably go off on some conspiracy theories there. Erin: I have many. Yeah. Laura: Yeah, maybe it would be helpful to just briefly explain what HbA1c is, or A1c, and how it's measured and, like, what, what it's measuring. Erin: Yeah. A1c, I call it A1c, but you guys call it HbA1c. Should I say HbA1c?Laura: No, it's, it's fine. And I don't, I don't know why I call it that because I did my dietetics training in the US but I, I dunno, who knows, who knows?Erin: I've noticed everybody calls it something a little bit different.Laura: So, because I guess the HB refers to it being the hemoglobin is the hemoglobin one. But it's the same thing. A1c is easier, so let's just go with that. Erin: Okay, okay, cool. So A1c is a measurement of average glucose levels over the past two to three months. And the reason that it's average and two to three months is that as hemoglobin, so hemoglobin A1c is the full name of the lab value.As hemoglobin is part of our red blood cells, so in our veins and arteries, our red blood cells are floating around and glucose is also floating around. And so as glucose is bumping up against those red blood cells, it leaves a little bit of stickiness of glucose on the red blood cells. And then red blood cells live for 60 to 90 days, so that's 2 to 3 months.So then when they draw blood to check an A1C, they measure what percentage of the red blood cells are…kind of have this glucose levels on them or glucose on them. And then they can give us that A1C measurement in percentage form. So like 5.7 means... That according to the United States, we're classifying that as prediabetes and then 6.5 is type 2 diabetes. And the reason that we diagnose type 2 diabetes or all diabetes at a 6.5 is that long, long, long term research…or we followed, not we, I'm not part of it, the fancy researchers have followed thousands of people for decades and found that if blood sugar stays kind of in that 6.5 to 6.9 range, risk of those scary things like blindness or kidney disease or circulation problems is very, very, very, very, very, very low, basically the same as people without diabetes. So that's why we diagnose it at that, what I think of as like a pretty conservative level, because we want to keep people from experiencing those scary things.Laura: Absolutely. HbA1c is a sort of medium-ish term measurement of your average blood glucose levels, whereas if we were to just do a blood test randomly at any point in the day, there are like a bajillion different factors that could influence, you know, whether it's a high reading or a low reading, like how recently you ate, it can, you know, it can vary according to a whole bunch of different things.So a better way of measuring blood glucose is to look at that value over a slightly longer period of time and get that average, even though there are still some issues with looking at that number, but it's, it's a better number than, than just doing a random blood glucose test. So we've talked a little bit about insulin resistances, what prediabetes is and what type 2 diabetes is. There is this really pervasive myth that type 2 diabetes is caused by eating too much sugar. What do we know about that? Is that true?Erin: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.Laura: That was such a leading question, right?Erin: Is that true? Tell us! The way I think of that is that it's a real, just a misunderstanding of, of the complicated nature of type 2 diabetes – and when I say complicated, I mean, like referring back to those 11 different changes in the body that I mentioned earlier.Laura: Oh, so tell us about that because you, we said we were going to come back to this. What are the different changes?Erin: I can't even remember them all off the top of my head, but some of them are…the insulin resistance is one, the kidneys are responsible for filtering out our glucose when there's too much. And in type 2 diabetes, the kidneys start holding on to more glucose than we would want them to.Another is a decreased level of incretin hormones. So, GLP 1 is an incretin hormone. GIP is another incretin hormone, and those hormones are responsible for helping regulate glucose levels. And, and many people with type 2 diabetes and someone with prediabetes, they have a decreased level of those hormones.Laura: Okay, so I guess what, what you're saying here is that we often just focus on the changes to the pancreas and insulin, which is what I was asking you about before, but actually there are systemic changes that are going on throughout the whole body, right? Is that what we're saying? Erin: Yeah. Laura: Okay.Erin: Yeah. And those are absolutely not caused by eating, quote, too much sugar or eating sugar.Laura: Right, right, right, but because what we're dealing with is elevated blood glucose levels, the sort of obvious, or what people think of is the obvious pathway, as well…it's too much sugar in the diet, therefore your blood sugar level is too high. But what I'm hearing you say is it's just not as straightforward as that.Erin: Absolutely, yeah.Laura: Okay. Anything else that you wanted to add about, like, that particular myth, or?Erin: I wish I had more, like, definitive, like, it, that is not true because X, Y, Z, but you can't disprove a myth with research, you know what I mean?Laura: Yeah, yeah.Erin: Like, if somebody was like, yeah, unicorns exist, I'd be like, I don't know how to prove that to you. Because I can't show you, like, there is not a unicorn here.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I hear you. But I guess, like, what I would want people to take away from this and understand is that, like, you didn't cause your type 2 diabetes, like, you're not to blame. And, you know, similarly to how there are all different changes in the body that take place when somebody has type 2 diabetes, there are all sorts of factors that contribute to and help explain why somebody might develop type 2 diabetes. And they are everything from, you know, stress and sleep and things that, you know, often get called like lifestyle variables, even though that in and of itself is problematic, all the way through to experiencing racism, homophobia, transphobia, anti fat bias, you know, all of these like discrimination and prejudiceracism, homophobia, transphobia, anti fat bias, you know, all of these like discrimination and prejudice. Those things are also going to play a part in our blood glucose regulation, but we don't think of that. We don't think about the social determinants of health. We just think about like, well, you ate too many carbs. Therefore you need to cut out carbs. And this is the advice that people are given, we hear this idea that like carbohydrates cause, in inverted commas, type 2 diabetes, but we've…we also hear that it's caused by being a higher body weight.So, I'd love to hear you unpack that a little bit and, and kind of…yeah, is it a similar thing to what I just said about carbohydrates or is there anything else that you would add to that?Erin: So the thing that I go back to a lot with that, I guess, argument is that there's a really big difference between a correlation and a causation.So the example that I give with that is that as soon as ice cream sales go up, there's also an increase in shark attacks. Like, those things are correlated, but we can't say, we can't draw from that that correlation.Laura: Yeah, that ice cream causes shark attacks.Erin: Shark attacks, yeah. Right. And with that one, there's a really obvious, you know, third factor, which is weather, that contributes to both of those things going up, and it's not quite so clear with weight and, and type 2 diabetes.But there's one theory, which is that weight gain can be a symptom of type 2 diabetes. Another problem with that argument is that it really ignores just the natural body diversity that exists and occurs in the world. There are plenty, plenty of people in higher weight bodies who don't have diabetes and If it were true that higher weight causes type 2 diabetes, then all people in larger bodies would, would have type 2 diabetes, and that is...absolutely not true at all and the research shows thatLaura: And I guess the inverse is also true, right, that people who have a lower body weight, a lower BMI also get type 2 diabetes. And so it's, it's again, not looking at the, the correlation and drawing kind of the cause and effect conclusion, but also thinking about, okay, what other factors are going on that we're not seeing?And I think, to my mind, at least, it goes back to some of the things that I talked about before, some of the things that are, well, a lot of things that are outside of our control, like again, how we are treated in society, and how that, you know, that has been shown to like..even things like the Whitehall studies.Are you familiar with the Whitehall studies? Erin: No.Laura: So the Whitehall studies are kind of what I think Michael Marmot's work on the social determinants of health are based on, whereby they studied like civil servants who worked in Whitehall, which is like part of the government in the UK. And basically they stratified, I think it was mostly on men. Whitehall 1 was mostly done on men, because, of course, we need to know more about men, but this was, this was, these studies were done, done a while back and they have since added women. But effectively they stratified people by like their pay grade essentially, and they found that people who were in a lower pay grade, you know, they all worked in the same place. There was a lot of factors that were very similar about these men. But one of the key aspects was how much like autonomy they had in their job and what their income was. And they found that the people who hadl ess autonomy, so they were like a lower pay grade, basically, even though they had sort of overall similar working conditions, that the people in the lower pay grades had, I think, higher risk of cardiovascular disease compared to upper management and that kind of thing.And so it's a similar sort of effect here. And we also see it with like racism and anti-fat bias that there are all these structural things that contribute to our health in really, really complex ways. So I feel like that is a big part of what happens with type 2 diabetes that again, like kind of just seems to get overlooked by the keto bros.Hopefully some of that rambling made sense, but I'd like to maybe now think about...For anyone who has received this prediabetes diagnosis or a type 2 diabetes diagnosis, like, one of the first line pieces of advice that a GP or even a dietitian might give is around weight loss and around limiting carbohydrates in the diet.Where to start, really, Erin? Like, in terms of both of those. But basically, I would be interested to hear from you. Is that where you would start with someone? Or like, even putting it another way, are those helpful places to start? I mean, again, a leading question.Erin: The short answer is no, I do not find that to be a helpful place to start.You know, I'm really looking at this from the perspective of the population that I work with, who are people who have, who have restricted their eating many, many, many times throughout their life, or engaged in intentional weight loss many, many, many times in their life.Laura: Sorry, I just wanted to clarify as well for anyone who's like newer to the podcast that you say intentional weight loss and when you say that someone who has restricted their food for whatever, like, who has restricted their food, that doesn't necessarily mean someone who has an eating disorder, right? Like, like, what I'm trying to get at that people might not immediately realise is that that applies to people who have been chronic dieters, like people who have been dieting their whole life, right? That also kind of falls under that umbrella, right?Erin: Yeah, absolutely. And most people fall under that umbrella versus the, like, the full eating disorder umbrella. So yeah, it really applies to…most people who have been socialised as female, I would be so bold as to say that most, most people who have been socialised as female and many others have, have restricted their eating or dieted or gone on a lifestyle change, many, many times.And. So, because…I'm trying to think of how to say this without getting too into the weeds of, of, um, like clinical weeds…but because the body is hardwired against famine, what will happen if someone tries this again or says like, okay, I've been told to lose weight and restrict carbs or eat less carbs because I've had this diagnosis of prediabetes or type 2 diabetes, what will happen is things will look, quote, better for a little while. And so that's why, that's why the research shows like, oh, yeah, that's the thing that we need to do is because for 12 to 24 months, things are gonna get better. And when I say better, I mean, glucose levels will go lower.Laura: I was just gonna say because research in this area is generally done over like a fairly short term period where maybe If you're really, like, persistent, you can diet for that length of time, but yeah, so that's kind of, I guess what I'm trying to say is that over that shorter time frame, people, especially if they're given lots of support, like in a research study setting, might be able to continue with a restrictive diet for a bit longer, right? But then what happens?Erin: Yeah, but then the body…since the body's hardwired against famine, the body will start to engage in all of these compensatory mechanisms. Yeah. Basically like that, that carb restriction or yeah, any kind of caloric restriction, but especially carb restriction will kind of start the spring loading effect for the body to protect against that famine at all costs, which means that glucose levels will go up higher than they were before, and weight does the same thing, insulin level, same thing. So If we follow people longer than that 12 to 24 months, what we see is that these metabolic health markers are worse than they were at the beginning.Laura: Interesting. Yeah. So, I guess what, what you're saying is... And I see this in practice as well, is that people, yeah, in the shorter term, they might be able to restrict their eating, they may even lose a little bit of weight, or maybe even a lot of weight in some instances, and then in the short term, those biomarkers might seem as though they're improving.But then, because the body is, as you said, hardwired to, yeah, to protect itself, to move, like, protect itself against starvation, and the body can't really tell the difference between, you know, famine. And self imposed or medically imposed dieting and restriction, it eventually fights back against that in the form of like, it dials up cravings for these foods.It might also…like your metabolism, like all of that, those metabolic functions that we talked about right at the beginning, they start to slow down, which means that you start to maintain your weight or, or even put weight on. And what I see – and I'm, I'm curious if you see this as well – is that that degree of restriction that is often asked of people in these very low carb diets that sometimes get prescribed, certainly here in the UK on the NHS or that a lot that are sort of endorsed by a lot of diabetes organizations even, they cause people to fall into a binge restrict cycle. So rather than having kind of a more…moderate's not the right word, but like having a healthier relationship with food where you maybe are eating more regularly, but maybe in a way that feels more attuned to your body and also caring for yourself in all of these other ways that are really important. I don't want to just put that emphasis on food, but we're talking about food here. That what you end up happening is people restrict, restrict, restrict, but then they can't maintain that restriction forever. And so they end up in a blowout, right? Like where they're eating past the point of comfortable fullness, which can send their blood glucose levels sky fucking high, and I don't mean that in like a shaming way. I'm not blaming any individual person who has been caught in this cycle because it's not your fault. But just to illustrate like how kind of messed up that advice is that it can send people sort of, yeah, into this, this downward spiral of binge restrict, binge restrict.And I think what's kind of important to note here is that you could have someone who has what looks like on paper, perfect A1C, right? But they are binging and restricting, binging and restricting, and that the average blood glucose level over time looks like…you know, on paper, it looks great. But if you were to actually look at what was happening to that person and their relationship with food and how they were feeling, you might see a different picture.Erin: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a really good point. A really good point. And to add on to what you were saying about it not being someone's fault, that binge restrict cycle is, is a very predictable result of the exact recommendations that people are being given. People are being given these recommendations to restrict calories, restrict carbs, and that is…the most predictable outcome of that is weight gain, higher glucose, and that binge restrict cycle when we look at the long, in the long term.Laura: Yeah, and I think that there's, there's something kind of psychological that goes on here as well when we ask people to really focus on the minutiae of detail around carbohydrates, around what they're eating, that that in and of itself, like that mental restriction can create, like, what I call the fuck it effect, like, or, yeah, just even the threat of restriction and deprivation can kind of trip a switch for people who have had an experience or had a history of disordered eating or chronic dieting or, you know, even, even people who have just tried to maintain a quote, a healthy lifestyle or wellness lifestyle and it really lead to problems for them.So, Erin, for anyone who's listening to this, who is like, well, my doctor has told me to lose weight. My doctor has told me that I need to cut out carbs or my diabetes nurse or my dietitian. But you're telling me, and actually my lived experience is that that's not a great option for me. Where can people start? Like, or more specifically, like, where do you start with people who come to you with this exact?Erin: The first place I start is by repeating over and over that you did not cause your diabetes. This is absolutely not your fault. You did all the things right, quote, right. Like there's nothing that you could have done differently to make this different, to make this not happen. Because like you were saying, Laura, that's most of the, the biggest factors here are stress, trauma, marginalisation. Those, those are the biggest factors and you don't, those are things are completely out of – and genetics! I didn't, we haven't even mentioned…Laura: Yeah, there's the genetic thing too.Erin: So, I think that's really hard for people to believe because it's the opposite of what they've been told for so long. There's so much of like, if you don't blah blah blah, you're gonna get diabetes. And so I repeat that over and over, that you did not cause your diabetes, it's not your fault. And then the next thing that we talk about is actually eating enough. So making sure that you're nourishing your body enough. Mm hmm. There's a lot of, like, biochemical metabolic processes that we can talk about about the why behind that. But I think we've, we've talked a lot about that today so we can take our words for it. That eating enough is just really, really important.Laura: Yeah, I think there's something there about sort of, you know, if it's available to you, like doing some work maybe around figuring out what your hunger and fullness cues look like, feel like. Because, again, just purely anecdotally, I've noticed that people who are, you know, not so attuned to those signals might, you know, put off, not eat enough throughout the day, so that then it does leave them feeling a bit more vulnerable to bingeing or, you know, like eating in a way that that feels like out of control or chaotic.Not that eating has to be this like super controlled thing, but also just recognising how unsettling and disturbing it can feel, if it feels like you have no say in what's going on as well. So yeah, I love that that's kind of like your, your starting point is like, hold up, are you actually eating enough?Erin: Mm hmm. And I say this in, you know, in this blanket way, talking to you today, because way more often than not, I see that people are not eating enough. And people are shocked at like, wait, I eat that much?Laura: Yeah. And, and I just want to, like, underscore that point. Especially for my clients who are fat or in bigger bodies, plus size, whatever language you feel comfortable using there. When I've said to clients in bigger bodies before, like, I don't think you're eating enough. There is just like a…I don't know, like, just this complete disbelief because it's so counter to what they've always been told, which is like you're eating too much. So, yeah, I just wanted to like flag that as well that like this is not just a thin people thing. That's for everyone.Erin: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for highlighting that.Laura: Are there any other like, kind of like, I suppose what I'm thinking of is like low hanging fruit, like things that are like, maybe not easy for people, but like, that might feel more accessible. That's maybe the right word.Erin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it, you know, really, really depends on the person and their, their experiences with food and movement and the medical system and their body, but some other things that may or may not be low hanging fruit are finding a doctor or a, or a medical team that you really vibe with, or at least that you hate less, we can say, like that feels less terrible. Because one of the biggest, most helpful things you can do with any type of diabetes is monitoring. And when I say monitoring, that can be anything from, well, mostly that's just like checking in with your medical team like quarterly or a few times a year, depending on what's going on for you. And if, if you absolutely dread it, that's not going to happen, right? Like you're not going to be able to be monitored.So finding somewhere that is less terrible, or maybe even someone you vibe with is really important.Laura: Yeah. That's really good advice. And I'm just…I'm thinking about the pathways that we have here in the UK and as far as I know, and it will probably depend slightly on different NHS trusts, but as far as I know you get an annual diabetes review for type 2 diabetes and I'm just thinking like about that in relation to the point that you're making which is that, yeah, having that check in that support just…you know not necessarily like a full review but like just to, yeah, see how things are going and, and see like what you might need, like that might not be available to everyone, certainly in this country. And I'm sure it depends on things like insurance and stuff in other countries, but I guess what I'm learning is just how fucking atrocious a lot of medical…or like not atrocious, that's not what I mean. But like, how under-resourced a lot of medical systems are in terms of like giving people the things that would be most useful, which is again why we're like, here's a diet sheet off you go, and that's not helpful.Erin: Yeah. No. Yeah. Not helpful at all. Gosh, that's, that's so maddening. t's really easy for us here in the U. S. to be like, uh, everywhere else has it better with healthcare, but it's really grounding to hear that not everybody's figured it out.Laura: It's like, what, 13 years of a Tory government? So. It's not surprising that our healthcare system has been absolutely obliterated.And again, it will depend on the area that you're in as to how good that care is. And that's not a reflection on any, like, individual practitioner within that system. Like, we all know how hard they are working and how kind of up against it they are. But what I'm hearing you say, really, Erin, is that, like, the going in hard with, like, weight loss and restricting carbohydrates, that is probably counterproductive to the overall aim of, like, caring for yourself, and that there are some other things that we can, like, think about and incorporate that might…Okay, they're maybe not such a like, go hard or go home approach, but that maybe they're more sustainable. Maybe they're like, kinder and gentler. And I think that reminds me of something that I will say to people if they come to me and they're like, you know, my doctor has flagged this, I'm feeling really stressed is…this is not an emergency. Right, like this is your arm is not hanging off or whatever it is. We can take a beat. And if there's other stuff that you just need to like, get a handle on, like life stuff or whatever it is, like, maybe this isn't your top top priority right now. Like, what are some like, small things that we can do to help you feel like you're caring for yourself or are being cared for that don't sort of, are maybe not going like full throttle, like, you know, what the common narrative is that we should be like cutting out carbs and losing all of this weight. But what are maybe some like softer things that we can start with? Yeah. Oh, well, Erin, thank you so much. This has been really helpful. And I know that you have a ton of resources on your website, on your Instagram that people can dig into. And I'll link to all of that in, in the show notes. I also want to mention that a while back at LCIE, we produced a guide, a weight inclusive guide to insulin resistance, and it has some more information about things like medication, supplementation, and again, some of those like lower hanging fruit things that might be helpful if this is something you're navigating and it has, you know, information about what we talked about today, Erin, the lock and key thing and like the how ‘prediabetes' is a dubious diagnosis. So I'll also link to that for anyone who's interested in the show notes. Okay, Erin, before I let you go, At the end of every episode, my guest and I share what they've been snacking on. So it can be anything, you know, a show, a podcast, a literal snack, whatever it is. I'd love to hear what recommendation you have for the listeners.Erin: Can I share a couple? Laura: Of course! Yeah. Erin: Okay, cool. Well, I'm literally snacking on all things peanut butter, which I don't know if you guys like peanut butter, but I. Just had some peanut butter pretzels again recently and I was like, gosh… Laura: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, are they the Trader Joe's ones? Erin: Yes. Laura: Okay. So last Christmas, my brother sent me like a huge ass box of stuff 'cause he lives in Oklahoma. From Trader Joe's. And it had those peanut butter pretzels in them and I hadn't had them before. And we don't have good snacks here. I'm just gonna say like the snack game in the States is just like…it's so much better than it is here, but I know those pretzels and they're so good. They're so good, yeah.We're gonna do a, like a snack box exchange again this year. So I sent him like, he loves chocolate, so I sent him like a ton of like Dairy Milk and like chocolates from... the UK and he sends me stuff from the US. So like, that's, that's fun. But I'm going to add them to the list because they are so good.Erin: They are so good. And you can, if you're in the States, you can also get them at Costco. Very similar ones.Laura: Okay.Erin: In bulk. Yeah. Big ol thing. So that's what I'm snacking on. My other thing is the podcast Normal Gossip.Laura: Oh yeah! I have heard a couple of episodes of that. And like, for anyone who hasn't heard it, can you explain the premise?Erin: Yeah, they get a story sent in from someone, like a true story, and then they share the story, like they're gossiping with a guest on, and they'll pause a lot in the story where they're like, okay, so this is what's going on, what would you do next? And so there's a little bit of like, choose your own adventure that I think is really fun.And then it's just so silly, but it's really nice to like, have some silliness.Laura: Oh, 100%. In the mess of everything. Do you have, like, a favourite episode that you would... Is there like a standout?Erin: Well, I just listened to one that was a live episode that I think it was like the plant story or something like that.And it was fun because they had a guest where they would ask them what they'd do. And then they'd have people raise their hands if they like absolutely disagreed in the audience. And then. So you just got a lot…there was even more choose your own adventure.Laura: There's like, yeah, more back and forth. Okay. Yeah. Like the plant story. I'm going to get you to send me the link and I will include it in the show notes because yeah, I am deep down a research rabbit hole at the moment looking at folic acid and folate and I'm like digesting all this biochemistry and I find that that happens a lot that I listen to a lot of like podcasts that are related to my work in some way and I forget the podcast can be fun.Erin: Uh huh!Laura: Yeah, I need to get back into that. All right, real quick, mine. So this is just like a fun, festive thing that I came across the other day, which I was looking for some new shoes and I came across gold sparkly converse high tops. Erin: Oh my God. Laura: And they are so cool. So I bought a pair. I don't know if I'm going to…they haven't arrived yet. I'm gonna try them on, but I feel like gold is a neutral, right? Like, it will go with everything.Erin: Oh, that's true. When I first heard you said neutral, I was like, are they? Is gold neutral? But it does go with anything.Laura: Yeah, so I'm gonna try them on, see what they're like, but I will, I will include a link in the show notes because, yeah, from the picture, I haven't seen them in real life yet, but from the picture, they don't look like they're too over the top and I feel like…if you know if like depending on what you're wearing like you probably get away with them at the playground, right?Erin: Totally. Totally. Laura: This is what I'm telling myself anyway. I kind of text them to all of my friends. I was like, what do you think of this? And there was like a lukewarm reception, but I think, I think I need new friends is really…with better taste is what, is kind of where I've come down on it! Maybe I'll put them on my Instagram stories and see what people think. Erin: There you go. Laura: All right, Erin. This was…uh, I was gonna say this was really fun, that little bit at the end was really fun. Like, all the bullshit around weight loss and low carb diets, not so fun, but I'm glad that we got to unpack, unpack that a little bit.For anyone who wants to dig into your work and your resources a little bit more, where can they find you and more about your work?Erin: My website is a good place. I have some free resources there and I try to update my blog with some kind of my push, my pushing back beliefs on kind of diabetes diet culture. And that is ErinPhillips.com. No, erinphillipsnutrition.com. Laura: Should we fact check your website?! Erin: I tried to buy erinphillips.com, but it wasn't available. So, erinphillipsnutrition.com. And then my Instagram, I think it's @ErinPhillipsNutrition.Laura: Okay, well we…just make sure you click on the link in the show notes because Erin's not a reliable resource on her own social media! So we'll make sure people get there in the end.All right, thank you so much, I really appreciate it Erin. Erin: Yeah, thank you, Laura. Thanks so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI this week: Gift Concierge + Mini Gift Guide* Fundamentals: Helping Kids build a Good Relationship with Sugar* Here's Why You Might Want to Pass On Getting Your Kid Weighed in School* The One-upMUMship of Kid Food Instagram This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe
Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast. I have been so excited to share this week's episode with you. Our guest today is Kirstie Beaven from Sonshine magazine - a publication dedicated to raising boys for a more equal world. Kirstie and I talk about how seemingly innocuous things like dinosaur t-shirts and shark pants send a message to our kids about who they can and can't be, how they should expect to be treated, and how they should treat others. Kirstie gives us a fascinating history lesson on how kids' clothes became gendered (spoiler, colonialism and capitalism have a lot to do with it) and why these have massive repercussions for gender equality. We also talk about why Kirstie is low-key obsessed with pants (the underwear kind), and why we can't just empower girls in a vacuum; we also need to be teaching boys emotional literacy and allowing them to have an identity outside of the ‘big boy', or the sporty one. Just a heads up that we talk about some distressing statistics around sexual harassment, suicide, and violence towards women and girls, but not in explicit detail.This is without a doubt one of my favourite episodes we've done on the CIHAS pod - if you've never listened before then this is a great place to start, even if you don't have kids. Don't forget to leave a review in your podcast player if you enjoy this episode - or let me know what you think in the comments below. Find out more about Kirstie's work here.Follow her on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTROKirstie: That's one of the things I really want to do, is just gently point out the things that we take for granted that we say are normal or natural, but they're not. They're totally constructed. Many of the things that we just take for…oh yeah, pink and blue. Pink is a girls' colour, blue is a boys' colour. We think of that as completely normal and it's totally made up and it's so recent.Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today I'm talking to Kirstie Beavan.Kirstie is the founder and editor of Sonshine Magazine, raising boys for a more equal world. Sonshine is a print and digital quarterly, as well as a social profile for parents who want to change the way we talk to and about our sons, to create a better society for all children.I've been so excited to share this episode. We recorded it a while back and I'm really glad that you're able to finally listen to it. It's such a great discussion about gender inequality and why seemingly innocuous things like how we dress our kids have really long term implications for their emotional development and the roles that they learn to occupy in society. Kirstie is a wealth of knowledge about the gendered history of kids clothing, which you won't be surprised to hear is entirely rooted in capitalism, rather than any real biological or physical differences between sexes. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation, and if you don't already, you need to get your hands on a copy of Sonshine Magazine, which is available in print and digitally. I'll link to it in the show notes so you can order yours. It would make a really lovely holiday gift for your co-parent or some other parents that you have in your life, maybe even for yourself. But before we get to today's episode, I'd love to tell you all about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter. And of course there are cool perks like being able to comment on posts, our Thursday threads, Snacky Bits, and exclusive posts on intuitive eating, weight inclusive health, and responsive feeding. But more than all of that, being reader and listener supported means I can better control who comes into this space. In other words, we can keep the trolls and the fatphobes out. And if they do sneak in, at least they've had to pay for the privilege, and I can still boot them out. Having control over who comes into the space is essential for creating a safe, nurturing space away from diet culture where we can discuss difficult topics like how we deal with diet-y friends, gender division of labour, and body shame. All the way through to more light hearted stuff like the weird shit that mummy influencers say. If you're still not convinced, then here's a recent testimonial from someone in the CIHAS community. So they wrote: “I wish I had access to the advice and information you share when my kids were little, but it's still valuable now that they're nearly adults for a couple of reasons at least. Firstly, having only been diagnosed as autistic in middle age, I have had a complicated relationship with food for most of my life. From childhood fussy eating, through stigma over my higher body weight and internalised fat phobia, to temporary success with dieting, followed by the inevitable return to my previous size. Your writing has helped me cast off many of my own hang ups about food, weight, and health, making me a better role model for my kids. Secondly, your advice helps me to support and advise my kids with their own food, health, and body image issues, and to advocate for them to family and friends. I believe in showing my appreciation for people who provide me with help and support, at least by saying thank you, and where possible, with feedback and or financially. I can't financially support everyone I'd like to all of the time. But I do what I can when I can. Thank you for all you do Laura.”So what are you waiting for? You can sign up today at laurathomas.substack.com or find the link in your show notes. It's £5 a month or £5 for the year and if you can't stretch that right now just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with the word “Snacks” in the subject line and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription. No questions asked. You can also gift a subscription to a friend for the holidays to give them unfettered access to the CIHAS community. I can even send you a gift certificate. Just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and we'll hook you up. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.All right team, let's get to today's conversation with Kirstie Beavan from Sonshine Magazine. MAIN EPISODEAll right, Kirstie, to start with, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?Kirstie: I'm Kirstie and I run Sonshine Magazine, which is a quarterly print and digital magazine and a social profile and community looking at raising.Laura: You said that with sort of like eyes rolled so we'll come back to that!Kirstie: I'm looking at raising boys for a more equal world so specifically it's parenting, thinking about parenting through the lens really of how we talk to and about our boys.Laura: Okay, and I'm curious to know, like, where this interest in gender equality comes from and like what spurred you to start a magazine about it?Kirstie: I think…so I've got two children and when my daughter was born, I think I felt more confident about how I was going to break down gender stereotypes for…I felt like, you know, I grew up in the 80s and 90s, which is a time of real flux in terms of how women were portrayed and expected to behave. It's a real…there's lots of progress and lots of backlash. And I think I felt – by the time I had my first child who happened to be a daughter – I felt quite confident about the things that I wasn't going to do and the stereotypes that I wasn't going to inflict on her and how I was going to help her navigate the world that I had already grown into womanhood through. And then two years later I had my son and I started to see that there were a lot of negative stereotypes associated with raising boys. And I felt like I had absolutely no model for managing that as a mother, not as a father, obviously. I just felt like, Oh, this is something I hadn't really considered or thought about. So I went to look for…where are the resources to help me parent a boy who I want to be able to grow up in a way that's free of the strictures of sort of gender stereotyping, but also who is going to be what we might now call a good man? You know, where are the resources for that? And I couldn't find any.Laura: Right. There wasn't a playbook.Kirstie: No, there's really few and far between. There weren't websites talking about it at the time. There weren't Facebook groups dedicated to this. There wasn't something that sort of scratched the itch that I had.And I had been working in content. I work mainly in the museums and gallery sector, working on the stuff that you see on the walls when you go into a gallery, like labels. Laura: I always wondered who wrote that stuff!Kirstie: Yeah, it was me. So that sort of stuff. So like presenting information for a general audience, that's been my job for a long time.So I was like, well, I'm a writer. I'm going to write one. I'm going to write the things that people needed, or that I needed really. And that's how I started.Laura: So you found that there weren't the resources that you as a new parent to a boy needed to help you navigate parenting that child in, so that they didn't grow up to be an asshole, basically. I think?Kirstie: Yes, exactly. I mean, yeah, partly that, but also partly because I noticed a lot of things about how my children interacted. Having an elder daughter and a younger son, I mean, I think it's the same if you…for many children, if you have an older sibling and a younger sibling quite close in age, that the younger one, is desperate to do all the things that the older ones do.So they're like, because, and I get it, like there's this person who's so close to you, but they're just better at everything than you are. So you're like, I just want to be them. Like that looks so good. And so she was like the leader. She was, you know, he was following her around, wanted to be just like her, wanted to wear her clothes, do the things that she liked doing, all of this stuff.And I sort of came to realise that I was really happy with this idea of my daughter. breaking stereotypes. I was really confident with this, like, Oh yeah, she's, you know…dress her in blues and darks and comfy clothes and all of that sort of stuff. And that seemed…that sat very easily with me. But when my son is saying, well, I actually want to wear a pink tutu, yeah, a dress and we're going to the shops. And I'm actually feeling a bit uncomfortable about that. Oh right, why am I feeling uncomfortable? I'm not uncomfortable about my daughter wearing trousers. I'm uncomfortable about my son wearing a dress. What is it in me? Because there's no problem for either of them. What is it in me that is the problem here?And having to confront that I have a problem with boys doing things that are feminine or coded as feminine. And what does that mean about how I feel about things being girly? Basically made me feel like, actually, that's not okay. That is something that I need to think about because the message I give to both my son and my daughter, if I don't want someone to be girly is because I think being girly is not aspirational because I think being a girl is not enough.So that is something that I felt like, Oh, that's work I have to do. That's work I have to unpick. And I'm the sort of person who likes information to unpick that stuff. And so there just wasn't that information out there to help me with that. Laura:Yeah, that's so interesting that you, I guess, noticed that tension in yourself, because you're absolutely right.There's social acceptance of, for want of a better phrase, maybe like ‘tomboyishness', where girls can, you know, have names that are traditionally masculine names and they can wear trousers and they can climb trees and that's all very well, but we don't have the same leniency for boys who want to do things that are perceived as being ‘more feminine'.And I have the same thing. I have a three year old boy, you know, assigned male at birth, but you know, we try, we like…we let him wear the tutu to the shop and it is, there is a discomfort that I've noticed in myself that I have to work through and kind of push through and I just haven't gone to the lengths of creating an entire magazine about it!But I, I'm really impressed that you have to kind of work through your shit. You made a whole magazine about it. But I'm curious, like, why a magazine and not, say, a podcast or, you know, and I know you do a lot of stuff on social media, which we can also talk about, but why did that feel like the medium for you?Kirstie: I think it's partly because of the way my brain works. So I prefer to organize things. In a way where I, I'm thematically grouping things.Laura: Okay, yes. I just... I get that instinct very much.Kirstie: I just wanted it to feel like, I didn't want to write a diary, I didn't want to write a straight up blog. And I wanted it to be written content, that's where I feel most confident expressing my ideas.But I didn't want to share too much actually about my children. Because, because... My experience as a parent is my experience, but their experience of being a child is their experience and that felt like that's…their private. It's not for me to talk about that for them. Laura: Right. You don't want to commodify your child, you know, to make money and capital.Kirstie: That's not for me. That's not for me. And I didn't want to feel like I was sharing their lives without their permission, but also telling a story about their lives, which maybe isn't the story that they would tell later on. Yeah. So I wanted to sort of use what I'd noticed in my own experience of parenting to give me a jumping off point to think about lots of other things.And so it made sense to me to work it like a magazine. I started online. So I would publish a series of articles grouped around a theme: clothes, books, screen time, whatever it is. You know, looking at these things, but through this idea of what have I noticed in this space about gender stereotyping and the constraints placed on children time after time, but through lots of different themes.Laura: Yeah. So it becomes a lens to explore a particular topic.Kirstie: Exactly. And the magazine lends itself to that. So each magazine now has a theme and I collate articles around that theme. Yeah. But all with that thread that runs through them, thinking about how you might just. poke at the things that we take for granted.I think that's one of the things I really want to do is just gently point out the things that we take for granted that we say are normal or natural, but they're not. They're totally constructed. Many of the things that we just take for…oh yeah, pink and blue. Pink is a girl's colour. Blue is a boy's colour. We think of that as completely normal and it's totally made up and it's so recent that that has come into being.Laura: Oh, really? Do you know the history of that?Kirstie: Yeah, so basically up until the sort of 1800s, a bit later, all children are wearing white because...Laura: Why? That's, that's a terrible idea!Kirstie: Well, I guess it was probably grey, right? Laura: Yeah. Kirstie: But they're basically wearing stuff they can wash easily. You can produce it and wash it easily. So they're wearing simple, plain colours, stuff you can pass down. All children are wearing dresses until seven, five to seven.Laura: It sounds like it's really, like, utilitarian, right? Like is that the right word? Kirstie: Yes. Yes. It is a bit. So there's this idea that children's clothing is, well, there's lots of things at play and I'm not a fashion historian.Laura: For the purposes of this podcast, you are.Kirstie: So children are wearing clothes that can be washed easily, that are good for toilet training. They're good for, you know, being out and about, right? There is a movement to make children's clothes less constrictive. Particularly for boys, and that's sort of in the 1800s and French ideas around children should be allowed to be outside more and, you know, changing parenting ideals. What happens is that there's a boom in fabric production, which is obviously based on plantations of cotton and exploitation of enslaved people. It's also based on the industrial revolution in places like the UK, which means that using child labour and industrial processes. Cotton can be produced on a huge scale. So there's a lot of exploitation that goes into mass producing fabrics. And then simultaneously there's a movement in chemical production of pigments. So you can start to make colours for clothes. And once you can mass produce fabrics and you can actually cheaply produce colours, for clothes, for the fabric to make clothes on, you know, you can have a boom in fashion for men, for women, and also for children, kids. There's a sort of like, Oh, actually. As a marketer, you know, as a producer of cloth, I want to sell more of this stuff. So as a marketer, what tools have I got at my disposal for that? So one of the things is, you don't want people to hand clothes down. So you don't want people to pass clothes just down and down and down. You want to make them so that they can't be passed on and they have to buy a whole new outfit every time their child grows. So it's building consumption into the processes. And so you come up with reasons for people to buy different things. So by the 1930s, 1940s, people are sort of thinking, Oh, how can we sell more of this stuff? So by the 1940s, there were catalogues going round the department stores and stuff like that saying, ‘these are the clothes that you should buy', ‘this is our new season,' ‘this is what everyone is wearing this season'. And it's the same for children's clothes. And they're looking at ways at dividing the children's clothes market by colour. So some of the catalogues produced around that time are saying pink is for brown eyed infants, because that's better for their complexion. And blue, you know…so all of these like weird things, but pinks and blues, but the idea was: pastels were the best ones for the children. And then someone comes up with it…there's a, I forget what it's called, but you can find a pamphlet, if someone comes up with the idea that pink should be for the girls and blue should be for the boys, though you can find other ones, other catalogues and fashion plates that suggest that pink is a stronger colour because it's associated with the red coats that men would have worn in battle, blah, blah, blah, that that should have been the colour for boys. Just made up, basically. Just all made up. Pink and blue is all made up. But it's stuck. And it's stuck with us. And pink got cemented as a feminine colour. By…now I don't want to get it wrong, but I'm going to say Mamie Eisenhower, who was the first lady in the 1940s, and she redecorated the White House and with all these special pink bathrooms and was her favorite colour. And it became sort of cemented, this idea of baby pink as being really feminine, definitely coded girly colour. And ties in with lots of other ideas around femininity that come in through the 1950s.Laura: Yeah, well, you may not be a fashion historian, but I really enjoyed that little foray into understanding, yeah, the, I mean, just the super problematic history that that what we feel is so ‘normal', was built on.Like, you didn't have to scratch the surface, barely at all, to find the colonialism, the violence, the capitalism, like, the effects of all of these things on. Yeah, how we end up ultimately dressing our kids today and what is coded as feminine, what is coded as masculine…and yeah, I remember when, when Avery was born just me and my husband like eye rolling anytime we got a blue card in the post, you know, like there was just like a sea of blue and we really appreciated our friends who'd like, who knew us really well and went out of the way to, to find a card that wasn't blue.And that's just, that's just such a small, like, meaningless thing in the grand scheme of things, like the colour of your baby card, but you know, there are repercussions to how we dress kids and I think this is something that you talk about so well, not just in terms of like the colour of the clothes – although that I think is, is important as well – but also just like the practicalities of dressing our kids. Maybe practicality isn't the right word, but I guess the functionality of how we dress our kids. And I think you've kind of got a bit of a reputation on Instagram for being the ‘pants lady'.So I'd love you to talk a little bit about that, like what your research has found when it comes to, not just pants, but just generally the discrepancies between clothing for girls and clothing for boys.Kirstie: Yeah. I mean, it's a dubious claim to fame, isn't it? The ‘pants lady'.Laura: I would take it. It's a great moniker to have.Kirstie: I mean, that is…some of the stuff that I've talked about is, that's one of the key things, I think, because people really notice it. It started because my daughter asked for a pair of pants with dinosaurs on them. And this is when we were potty training and I thought, great, dinosaurs, that should be easy. And then she'll want to wear them. And then potty training would be much easier. Yeah. And I went looking for them and I couldn't find any girls pants that had dinosaurs on them. Laura: It doesn't surprise me, but… Kirstie: No, I mean it is a bit better now. This is eight, nine years ago. Yeah, so I couldn't find any, and then I found some boys ones and I thought, oh, well she doesn't know.And then I got them home and I was so shocked to get them out of the packet and find that they were bigger, roomier. They were beautifully…they had these incredible overlocked seams, all the elastic was covered. I noticed that they were about, they were two centimeters bigger in the waistband, basically, than the girls pants, same brand, and were made of a thicker, higher grade cotton. They just were better. They just were loads better. And so I thought, well, maybe that's just the, this is just an anomaly that I've picked up. Because you know, often when you go to a shop, you can pick up two things that are the same size, but actually when you try them on, they're not quite the same. They're different. So there's all of that. So I thought, well, maybe this is it. But actually having looked into it now over the last eight years, that is across the board that the girls' pants in particular are cut to a smaller pattern than the boys pants, and they're made with flimsier fabric. They're more badly made. They're itchy. They've got this lacy trim. They're made with a lighter weight cotton, which has less stretch and give. They're cut shorter in the backside, so they don't come up as high. So this is comparing girls briefs with boys briefs. They have a narrower gusset. So they're more likely to ride up your backside, basically, give you a wedgie.Laura: Ah, is that why that happens? Because of the size of the...Kirstie: Yes, because of how it's cut across the bottom.Laura: Yeah, yeah. No, I can, I can imagine it. As someone who has, like, a lot of problems finding... Like decent underwear. Yeah, like don't get me started on how far downhill M&S underwear has gone over the past few years.Kirstie: Totally agree.Laura: But yeah, I guess I just, I hadn't thought of it…because that was going to be my next question for you was like, so what, right? What's the big deal here? And I think you've already kind of answered it, but it looks like you've got more to say, so…Kirstie: Yeah, I have got more to say. Because the big deal, actually, what it made me realise is that a significant proportion of our children are going to school wearing an uncomfortable piece of underwear. So many people, when I post about this on Instagram, so many people say to me, ‘Oh, my daughter is always getting a wedgie'. ‘My daughter is always complaining that her pants are uncomfortable'.I find it myself, I find the seams and labels inside clothing can be really irritating. Yeah. Giving this advice to oh, just wear them inside out, blah, blah, blah. No! Just let's make..Laura: Buy the boys ones, Kirstie: Kids deserve to be comfortable and it made me think how different my life would have been if I had been wearing clothes that were comfortable, if I'd been wearing clothes that weren't for looking at but were for playing in.It's not just pants actually, it comes across all areas of children's clothing. So you see it in girls' trousers versus boys' trousers. You're more likely to find a knee reinforcement in a boy's trouser than you are in a girl's trouser because the expectation is that boys are harder on their trousers than girls.Well, yeah, I mean, obviously you are if your pants aren't riding up your bum all the time. And also, if your shoes…so if you look at the difference between girls' shoes and boys' shoes, you'll see that boy's shoes tend to have a thicker sole. They tend to be waterproof. They tend to be made with a toe cover so that you can climb or run more easily.And if you look at girls' shoes, particularly noticeable in very, very little toddler shoes and school shoes. You'll see that the girl's shoes come with really thin soles, no grip. They often have holes in the top, so they're not really waterproof. They're often made of patent leather, so they're shiny, so they…you can't scuff them up. I mean, you will scuff them up and then you'll be in trouble. So what is what you say? So what? The thing is, it's all based on our expectations of children, our expectations as adults on children. It's nothing to do with whether they, as individuals…what they like doing. You know, if you've got a child that likes running, they like running. It's not whether they're a boy or a girl, it's whether they like running. If you've got a kid that feels more regulated, if they've climbed something and swung on something, it's not because they're a boy or a girl, it's just who they are. That's what their bodies are asking for. But we are channeling them societally down these routes, down these expected routes of you should be more active and you shouldn't be more active just simply based on your genitalia. And it does actually have impact on children. You can see it if you go to any primary school, you can see who's taking up the space in the playground and it is 90% likely to be the boys.Laura: And that wasn't a…in case it came across this way, it wasn't an accusatory…it was meant to be a provocative question because I am 100% with you on this.And I think you articulated it so beautifully when you said, you know, we're setting a precedent, we're setting an expectation that girls clothes are to be looked at and are there to be pretty, whereas boys clothes are designed to be functional and for movement and yeah, to let them really be…engage in a full variety of experiences that we're inadvertently excluding girls from, right?Movement, getting messy, getting scuffed up, getting dirty, whatever, whatever it is.Kirstie: Yeah, it's two sides of the same coin, actually, because you see it with girls that the expectation is that their clothes will be pretty and good to look at. And I particularly don't want to have…in my children's underwear, I particularly don't want to have my daughter thinking that her underwear needs to be good to look at, right? It's gross.Laura: It's a really disturbing thought when you, like, think about the kind of the implications there.Kirstie: Yeah, yeah. It's actually like, what in the world? Children's underwear should just be functional. It should cover up their genitalia.Laura: Maybe it should have days of the week on it. It could, yeah, I'm up for that.Kirstie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm up for that. I'm up for patterns. I'm up for that. I'm up for, like, things on the front so you know which side to get into. Yeah, that's all of that. But it doesn't need to be cut small. It doesn't need to be low rise. It doesn't need to be... skimpy in the gusset. Like none of that is necessary for children's clothing. Laura: It needs to be functional. Kirstie: It needs to, it just needs to do its job. Yeah. And I…and you could even argue that the people most likely to be wearing a skirt are girls. So the children who really need the big pants are the girls. So why is it, when I go to the shops, that the girl's pants are miniscule? Laura: Well I wonder if it goes back to capitalism, because if you've got skimpy pants…you know I'm thinking of this from the perspective of a marketer, if I've got skimpy pants, then I can also sell a pair of shorts to go under the dress. Yeah. This is the only explanation that I could come up with.Kirstie: I mean I have been and interviewed some people who've worked in childrenswear, and a lot of them were like….Oh. We've never thought of this because childrenswear is not a thing conceived of in many big shops. It's not conceived of as childrenswear. It's conceived of as girls and boys and they take their cues from womenswear and menswear. And so they're taking maybe what is the best selling hoodie, jersey weight in the menswear and then they're scaling that down for the boys. And then they're taking what is the best selling hoodie weight, say we're talking about sweaters, jersey for the women's and scaling that down for the girls.And they're not talking to each other necessarily. So it's a sort of vicious circle or a chicken and egg thing where menswear is generally heavier weight and more comfortable and womenswear is generally lighter weight and less comfortable. And the styles from menswear are going to come down into boyswear and the styles from womenswear....And that's the same for underwear. So when you look at women's underwear, that's actually what's going to be started to scale down. Lace trims, bows, the types of patterns that you'll see, crop tops, that sort of stuff is going to be scaled down for the girls underwear. And men's underwear is going to be scaled down for the boys. And I see that, but the fact is that children's bodies are not like men's and women's bodies.That is not... Clothes for children can be clothes for children. Until, really, a long way through their childhood. There's no reason to be making them different. Often when I post about this, and I say, here's a pair of jeans and the jeans for the boys, jeans in the boys' section, maybe are two inches bigger in the waist than the girls. And maybe they are…they've got more flex in the leg, and maybe they're also an inch or two longer in the leg than the girls. It's particularly noticeable in shorts, so when summer comes around, you'll see that the girls' shorts are tiny. And that starts from toddler age, so the toddler girls' shorts, which are often really nice, like they come in nice colours and nice prints and all of that sort of stuff, but they are cut inches shorter.Laura: They're teeny tiny. I remember you posted a reel about this over the summer and I'll link to it in the show notes because yeah, it's…yeah, you're basically dressing toddlers in hot pants.Kirstie: Yeah. The flip of the coin is that if you go into the boys section often you can only find things that are khaki, navy, black, burgundy, what I call sludge. Like you just get sludge colour, so you can't find the pretty prints or the…you can't find florals or butterflies or rabbits. My son loves rabbit, love rabbits for years and it's rabbits and cats…you can't have a rabbit if you're a boy. Because you can only have a shark. And then you think, oh, it's fine. I'll go and buy the rabbit top. It's in the girl's section. What does it matter? And then you get the rabbit top and it's cropped or it's got a cap sleeve or a boat neck, you know, so it's not so sun safe. It's not so easy. You know, it doesn't wash as well. It's very easy, I think, to say, this is obviously bad for girls. This is obviously bad for girls. It's obviously bad to create children's clothes that make girls feel that they are too big for their age. That is obviously bad. I can't see why we are doing this. I've had messages from people who've got boy girl twins who are the same size and if they buy a pair of joggers in the boys' section, so two pairs of joggers in the boys' section, they're enormous in the waist, age five to six. And if they go to the girls section and buy the similar joggers. They can't pull them up and these children are the same age and the same size and what does it do to you if by the time you're old enough to understand it, say you're seven, you can see the labels in your own clothes. What does it do to you to know that the age seven jeans are too tight for you? What does that do to you as a girl? What does it conversely do to you as a boy, if you're a slim boy? And you buy the age seven joggers and they're like a tent on you. And the expectation is that you ought to be bigger and you ought to be broader and you ought to be wider or taller. The expectations that this places on our children based only on their gender, you don't have to follow it very far to see how harmful it is.Laura: Yeah. I mean, there's so much to unpack there as well. Like I'm thinking of it through my lens as well, which is thinking about body image and these pretty arbitrary sizes do to kids' sort of body esteem, if they are, you know, maybe at the lower end of the growth curve or the higher end of the growth curve and they don't fit into that seven to eight, like maybe they're in 10 to 11 and the like the mismatch, I think, between ages and sizes of clothes. And I don't know what the workaround is, it's, it seems kind of like it's all wound up in this, it's a similar problem, right?Kirstie: I think so. I think so. I mean, I think the workaround is what they do in a lot of European countries is…it's not, it's not done by age. It's done by height.Laura: Oh, height. Okay. Yeah.Kirstie: It's a measurement. And I think it's really telling, that if you ask a man what size he is, he'll give you a measurement. Yeah. So if you want to buy a pair of jeans as a man, you're buying a size, an actual size.Laura: X centimetres or inches.Kirstie: 32 inch waist, whatever it is, right? That's a measurement. And if you know what your measurement is, you can buy the right size. But as women, you ask what size we are, we have to give a random number. It doesn't equate to any measurement. Except to make you feel bad. And I think that sort of permeates the landscape of children's clothing.This idea of functionality, that actually clothes are made for comfort and what they can do for you. And what they…they'll just be made to whatever size that you need. That your clothes actually…comfort is the least important thing on the list for women's clothes, often. I mean, I feel like underwear in particular.I'm starting to enter into the preteen world. Yeah. It's really made me question a lot of things. Like this idea that when I was a kid, I guess I was 12, 11 or 12, and we went to get a training bra. And I thought about this… training bra? I thought, what's it being trained for? And I thought I was being trained because bras are really uncomfortable.So to get you used to wearing a thing makes your body more palatable to society's view of what women's bodies should look like. It's not on my horizon yet, but it's something that I've got to have a thought aboout. Laura: How do you have that conversation? Kirstie: Yeah, I don't actually know how I feel about that.Laura: Yeah, I mean, that's a really tricky one.I don't know. I don't know if I've added an unanswerable question to that. Yeah, no, but it is, it's, it's just not something that I've ever given any consideration to. And I think what feels probably really sticky about it is that, you know, you can have these conversations with your kid about, you know, whatever, like some man invented a bra to make our bodies more palatable.I don't actually know if it was a man. I'm making this up, but you probably do know the history of bras as well. I think I read, I read like a really interesting article about it once before, and I, and I really can't remember now, but the list of questions that I was going to ask you is completely gone out of the window. But no, it's great. But yeah, you know, you can have these conversations and you can, like, help your kid feel really empowered to not wear a bra or to wear a bra or to like make their own choice or, you know, about the type of bra that they wear if they choose to wear one. And, but then, you know, they go to school and all their friends are wearing, you know, these cutesy little training bras that probably actually do nothing. Yeah. Really. And so then you have to navigate, like, the social piece, with lining that up with, with your values and their values and it's their body. They ultimately…I think probably what we want to promote in our kids is body autonomy. Also that totally backfired on me the other day when my three year old was like, ‘I'm the boss of my body!' when he didn't want to get in the bath. Yeah, I mean, this is... I wasn't prepared for that. But, like, in general, you know, like, it backfires a lot when they're three and they don't want to get in the bath, but hopefully by the time they're, you know, 11, 12, and they're thinking about training bras, maybe a bit younger than that, even, that they...have a better sense of what their boundaries are around their bodies?Kirstie: Yes, I think so. I think they do. But I think there is, I think also the, the influence of peer pressure becomes so much greater then like…actually, you see that you see your influence declines as a parent, you know, you can lay them foundations, but they're coming to the point where what their peers are doing and thinking is really important.And they actually are going to have to navigate this like the foundation that you've laid in terms of what your family values are around bodies and body autonomy, but also, I hope, you know, like that word you used about body esteem. I think that's really great. But I also really like the idea that perhaps they don't think a lot about their bodies.Like, that's what I would really love for them. Laura: That's the dream. Kirstie: Yeah, but there's just a…that's not something that occupies their thoughts all the time. And I, we talked a lot about girls, but it is, it's really important for boys as well. The reason that I want to talk about boys is because it's like the missing piece of the puzzle.We want things to change for our daughters. You can see that the effects of gender stereotyping is,are really bad for women and girls. We have to have actual tasks…well, let's try that again, task force in government, exactly, for violence against women and girls. That's how big of a problem that is. 90% of the perpetrators of violence against women and girls are men. So we have to also be looking at men in that equation. This is not a women's problem. This is a societal problem, a problem across all, everywhere in society about how we treat men and women. And if we're not talking to the boys about equality, If we're only talking to the girls, we're only going to get half of the population changing.It has to be holistically talking to all of our children. And for me, it feels like that means we have to unpick some of that stuff where, you know, the boys are getting a bit of a privilege. You know, we're talking about clothes. That is a privilege for boys that their clothes are made for playing. But it's also, how do you treat a child if their clothes tell you something about them?So if you see a child and they're wearing a top, which has got a bunny wearing a flower crown, what do you, as an adult, think of that child, as opposed to seeing a kid standing next to them, that's wearing a T-Rex with blood dripping from its fangs, right? As adults, how do we treat those children? What are the expectations that we have? Oh, you're big, you're strong, man up, don't cry. You know, the expectations that…that just tiny little cue might give us the emotional connections that we might allow a boy or a girl. These things seem tiny, but they are played out in all sorts of places through society. And unless we allow boys to be warm, be empathetic, to be vulnerable, to be…wrong. You know, to get things wrong and not always be the best at something, you know, we have to allow them some of the things that we're happy to allow girls and the same way that we have to allow the girls some of the things that we're happy to allow the boys. And that's what leads to a more equal distribution as they get older.Laura: I'm really glad that you brought it back there. And I think what I appreciate the most is how you basically connected the dinosaur T-shirt, shark underpants to the toxic masculinity pipeline, right? Like that's, I think what…because I think it's all very well for us to sit here and be like, ‘Oh, girls pants are too small and dah, dah, dah, dah'. But if we can't frame that within the context of, you know, the bigger issues, which I think you do such a great job of bringing it back to, you know, the gender pay gap, for example, like you just did there, like…Well, you didn't say this, but I'm thinking about how male suicide rates are really, really high. Because, and maybe you have some better insight into, like, the statistics around this, but I know especially there was a big conversation about it a few years ago about, yeah, just just like the gender norms that we foist upon men and boys means that they can't express their emotions. They can't tell us when they're struggling, they can't be vulnerable.And I think a consequence of that is that they end up either taking it out on their own lives and ending their own lives, or they take it out on the women around them in the form of things like domestic violence, for example. Can you maybe speak just briefly to, like, yes, it's about pants, but it's about all these other things? You know, like the bigger picture things? Kirstie: Yeah. I mean, it is about pants in, in one way because it sort of lays the baseline. If you are comfortable in your clothes, perhaps you are running a bit faster at school, perhaps you do have a slight advantage in the playground, that sort of thing. Yeah.If your T-shirt says on it, ‘I'm a genius'. Perhaps someone says that to you every time you wear it. Perhaps someone says, ‘Oh yeah, you're a little genius'. And perhaps that's just popping into your head drip, drip, drip day after day. And if your sister's T-shirt says, ‘Isn't she lovely?' on it? LAURA: ‘I'm a princess'. ‘I'm a princess' or just even, I mean, it can be so subtle, you know, ‘Always Happy”'.If your T-shirt says “Always Happy” on it – I see that on so many T-shirts – what's that telling you about how you have to present yourself? So these just little drip drip drip messages, they make a difference. And it makes a difference in how we as adults therefore treat them. And then that gap between how they feel about themselves widens.And what they…they get this idea that they are opposites, instead of things that are really similar: humans. Yeah, humans. You get this idea that you're super, super different. Instead of this idea that everybody here has similarities and differences. And this is just one of them, being a boy and a girl. That's just one of the differences. And we don't separate children by any other characteristics. We don't go to the park and say, Come on brown haired children, time to go home from the park. Like, we just don't do it. There's no other characteristic that we yell out. In the playground. ‘Come on, boys!' So, you know, we make these binary distinctions really, really important.And then by the time they get into secondary school, there's all sorts of things going on. Like, 45% of girls in mixed sex secondary schools have experienced some sort of sexual harassment at school.Laura: I saw this on your Instagram the other day, and I just... It's, it's horrendous. I cannot, like…I mean, I can believe that, but also what?!Kirstie: Yeah, I mean, I…it gives me the fear so badly. Like, what world are we throwing our daughters into? But what world are we throwing our sons into where they think – well, there's a significant proportion of boys in the school that think it's okay to treat women in that way. And it comes back to this idea. This is, that's why this stuff matters. Because it comes back to this idea that if girls are there to be looked at and boys are there to do things. That's how it plays itself out there. So, girls are for looking at. They're not full humans. Boys are the ones that do things. So it doesn't matter if I stick my hand up your skirt, ping a bra strap, whatever it is.That's one pathway, but…as you call it, the toxic masculinity pathway. But the other one is actually...but you can see right through – this is unrelated to clothes really – but you can see right through that the way we talk about, or the way we talk to them, it differs. So studies show that if you know the sex of your baby before it's born, you're more likely to say that they're very active in utero. So you're more likely to use words like ‘active' or say, ‘Oh, got a little footballer in there. So much kicking'. So colours, your expectation colours, your experience of what you're seeing. And then you have a confirmation bias. So when your child does something that chimes with your ideas of what you think boys must like, you notice it more. So you see your boy playing with something with wheels and you're like, ‘Oh, he loves wheels'. I've heard that boys love wheels. You give them more wheels, you give them a lot of praise or excitement or interest. And it creates a feedback loop where they therefore, yeah, they are going to be more interested in this thing.You keep giving them and showing that you're really proud of them. But we also find that parents are less likely to use emotional language with sons than they are with daughters. When they read books together, they're more likely to talk about, what do you think this character's feeling with a daughter than they are with a son?And in fact, the National Education Union did a survey where they looked at preschool, what were the activities that parents were more likely to do with their children, and they broke it down by gender. And parents are more likely to do singing, reading, painting, and expressive things with their daughters. And the only thing that they were more likely to do with the son was sport.Laura: You think about how we are inadvertently training girls to do the emotional labour. And by not teaching boys how to do it, we're double burdening girls with it. Kirstie: It's exactly that. That's exactly it. And we are expecting girls to behave prosocially.So girls are more likely to be punished for what we could call anti-social behavior…but not sharing. Not being kind, that sort of thing. We are more likely to punish, but whatever form that takes, you know? I'm not suggesting that…punish always sounds like a corporal punishment. But actually to come down heavily on…you know, you've gotta share, you've gotta do that.And we are less likely to reward boys for the pro-social stuff. So when boys are sharing or being kind, we are less likely to say, ‘Oh, he's so good at sharing'. Yeah. You know, that's just a thing that people are less likely to say. So there's exactly, that we expect…the expectation that girls will do a little bit more of that emotional labour, but it comes into school where they can, they've been able to see that boys come with a more limited emotional vocabulary.So they're less able to name their feelings and therefore, once you can name a feeling, you can process it. And if you haven't got the skills to name it, you haven't got the skills to process it. So then you see a third more boys are excluded from school. The stat you were talking about, about suicide. So suicide is still the biggest killer of men under 50.And that speaks to not just a crisis in mental health, men's mental health, because I would say there was a crisis in mental health in general, but in the way that it is expressed and dealt with, and men and boys are less likely to reach out to ask for help. So Childline counsel more girls than they do boys, though the same number of them may be having suicidal ideation thoughts. They're more likely to talk to girls about it than they are to talk to the boys about it, and that is seen in the suicide rates, the death by suicide rates for boys. It being significantly higher for male than girls.Laura: It's so horrendous, like, yeah, as a parent of a boy and, yeah, married to one as well, like, a man, yeah, just hearing that is, it's heartbreaking.Kirstie: I suppose the only other thing I would think is worth mentioning, I don't want people to go away feeling like it's doom and gloom because I think It only takes tiny changes, I think.Laura: I mean, I struggle with this a bit because ultimately it's a social issue. And so, I don't want to put everything on individual parents, like we need to change school policy, we need to change…God, even before that, preschool! My preschooler came home the other day, or we were playing in the playground, and he was like, no girls allowed in. And I had to like, I had to stop the play and be like, Let's talk about how we don't exclude people from playing. And I've, like…he had been at nursery for, like, two weeks before this happened. I was mortified. Where are you getting this? It's before they even get to school is what I'm trying to say.Kirstie: Yeah, and I think it peaks actually around six or seven, that really binary thinking, because they want to find their groups, that's like developmental science, like they're coming away from their parents, they want to find their groups, they do want to fit in actually, it's really hard to not fit in.Laura: Yeah, no, it's an evolutionarY…what's the word that I'm looking for? Like, it's evolutionary adaptive to be part of the group. If you're excluded from the group, you're more likely to get eaten by a predator, or like……I'm putting it in really, really simplistic terms there. But, you know, it's this conversation I have with my clients who are coming to see me about, you know, problems with, with body image. I mean, problems with body image...! But I mean, you know, when they're struggling with how they feel about their body and they say, you know, I just want this last diet. I…you know, can't let go of the idea of losing weight. And I'm like, well, of course not, because you're more likely to be accepted when you have thin privilege. And all the privilege that that gives you access to. And that has an evolutionary basis, right? To be accepted, …there's safety in that group. So yeah, the exact same thing……sorry, that was just a massive tangent for me to talk about myself and my work, but…Kirstie: No, I mean, it's... but that's really important because it's all the same thing, isn't it?Because it's exactly…it's all tied up. Like you say, it's like a societal thing. It's so hard to fight against that. Like, I don't always want to be the person who steps out, speaks up. I mean, sometimes I can't help it. That is who I am. But you know, when I'm standing at the school gate, I just want to be friends. I want to make friends. I don't want to be giving people an earful about everything all the time. So it's the same for our children, isn't it? They want to slot in. I think the things that we can do that change that is try and reduce those divisions. I think putting our children in very, very different clothes based on their gender tells them that we think it's really important. So I think there's lots of things that we can do that just reduce those barriers. And I do think that it is a question of changing policies within schools. And I do think it is also maybe shielding them as much as you can from books or TV programs or…I mean, it becomes impossible to be honest, but that, yeah, it's really hard things that don't constantly drip those messages into their heads. And it's really, really hard because they are absolutely everywhere. But if you're aware of it, you keep an eye on what you're reading with them or what you're watching with them or what you're seeing in the supermarket. You know, if you've just got that little thing running in the back of your head thinking, ‘would I let both my kids wear this'? That's one of the questions I ask myself. And the answer has to be yes, I would let both of my kids wear this. One of the questions I ask in the back of my head, like, does this paint everybody in a good light? Like when you're watching Peppa Pig, is Daddy Pig painted in a good light? What do you think it does to little boys to see that? Just think about that for a second. Like what is it when you're watching...Laura: I've given a lot of thought to this.Kirstie: Yeah, I'm sure you have.Laura: Yeah, I wrote recently about – it's from a different angle – but the horrendous anti-fatness in Peppa Pig. And just how...harmful that show is but I hadn't thought of it, because I try and avoid it if possible, but like I hadn't thought of it from the gender perspective as well as, like the lens…Kirstie: Daddy Pig is portrayed inevitably as an idiot. Yeah. And I just think that doesn't do anything good. But on that, I mean, I think it's really interesting now to see how the idea of talking about bodies…We watch Strictly as a family and that's one of the things that my kids enjoy watching and it's hard to find things that everybody can watch together. And there is so much good representation now in the past few years in Strictly, you know, in terms of same sex couples, in terms of people who are openly gay, like, in terms of people from all different backgrounds and ethnicities, like, that's doing a great job, I think. But we watched the opening show and two of the men talked about how they were overweight. “A bit squashy,” one of them said, something like that, talked about, Oh, well, this is going to be hard for me because I've got a problem with weight. And I thought, I think if a woman was saying this, we would be listening to this in a different way. And we would be thinking about how we could positively respond. I think the conversation around body positivity, which is something I feel a bit uncomfortable about, but I think that conversation for women is at least happening. And I feel like that conversation is more complicated and perhaps nuanced for men because we've had this thing about the dad bod, but equally, I was interested to see that people were like talking about their bodies in this…the disparaging their own bodies. In this show that I think of as not being a…that sort of thing, and it fell down gender lines.Laura: That…it's a really interesting observation. I haven't paid much attention to Strictly, but I think just more broadly speaking, I think – and it ties into kind of just not being able to express themselves, maybe in the same way or talk about the things that are bothering them, but also the shifting roles of body image pressures, I suppose, for men and boys. But I did – I'll link to this in the transcript as well – but so I spoke with Dr. Scott Griffiths, who's a psychologist and a body image researcher about sort of the shifting way that the male bodies are perceived and, and kind of the growing pressure and expectation of them to have this ripped, shredded body to the point that we are now seeing, in older sort of teens, we're seeing something called muscle dysmorphic disorder, so a body dysmorphic disorder, it sort of sits between a body dysmorphic and eating disorder.Generally, boys who struggle with it consider themselves to be like insufficiently muscled and really lean and scrawny and they, they want to bulk up and, and get big and strong, like, you know, all the messages that they've been receiving since they were one and two and three years old. And so they end up…on the really extreme end of it, they might inject testosterone [I MEAN STEROIDS HERE!]. It can lead to infertility. It can, it can lead to all sorts of really, really. hugely problematic things. And again, if I just wonder about, you know…it's, it's acceptable for women to talk about how they struggle with their bodies for better or worse. And we obviously have a sort of counterbalance to that in the, the body positivity, body acceptance movement, but that doesn't exist for men.There is no body positivity for men or…like, there is, but there's a few, you know, a few people talking about it.Kirstie: You could argue that because it hasn't been necessary till now because it has been less of a concern societally for people to police men's bodies. But now we're finding ourselves in this highly visual culture where people are policing everybody's bodies.And simultaneously, like you say, we're asking little boys to conform to these really rigid rules about what it means to be a man or look like a man.Laura: And we're giving them like, if you think back to like what a Ken doll looks like, to what a G.I. Joe or like…I don't know if kids play with them anymore, but you know what I mean?Kirstie: What they do play with is Spider Man or Hulk or Batman or, you know, all of these figures, they are all hyper muscled. And if you watch those Marvel films, those are idealised bodies and the idealising for boys and men is to have these bulging biceps and to have a six pack and things that actually aren't…you know, if you ever hear a film, a film star talking about what they have to do to look the way they do.You know, if you ever heard Hugh Jackman talking about what it was like to be Wolverine, that is not okay. It's punishing. It's absolutely punishing. He didn't drink for days on end. You know, really, he was at the limits of what you can do and still be alive and turning up for work and doing specific sort of flexes and the pressure then that that could put on you if you were the, you know, if you're susceptible to, like you say, injecting hormones or steroids and the fact that that stuff is very reasonable, you know, very easily available or to be buying protein powders and being told on TikTok that you, you too can bulk up, you could, yeah, but actually your genetics are playing a part in this.You can't. Yeah. Bodies are different.Laura: So, so much playing, playing into that. And Kirstie, I feel like we could talk for hours about this stuff. And I, I'm, I'm really conscious about your time. It's a...Kirstie: Yeah, so I've got to go and pick my children up from school! Laura: Okay. So, okay. There is one burning question that I have for you, which is...I don't know if you have this, like, data, but do dads read your magazine?Kirstie: Well, that's a good question. So I don't have this data. What I can tell you is, from my social media account is that it's like 90% women. That's slightly to do with Instagram. Instagram skews towards women. Yeah. This is a question that I get asked a lot: why don't more men write for you? So men are less likely to pitch me. And I think you'll find that men talking about parenting often have daughters. Yeah. And I do get it because I think when you have a daughter as a man, you have the same experience that I talked about where I suddenly was like, Oh, I don't know what it is like to be a boy in this world. I haven't done that. Oh, I see some of the things that you're going to run up against. I think that realisation for some fathers can be huge. Yeah. I think it can be absolutely massive for them. I think they can realise a lot about their own previous experiences to see that. And I don't like the fact that they have to have a daughter for this to happen to them.But they suddenly realise, Oh, I see how you're going to be treated in this world and I do not like it. And I want to talk about parenting now.Laura: I was just going to say, you have a much more generous interpretation of it than I do, which I think is that, and maybe – and I don't think it's one or the other, it's probably both – but I also think that this just speaks to the point that we were making earlier, which is that so much of the emotional labour of raising children falls on women.Kirstie: Yes, I mean, I think that is true, that basically who buys parenting books is women, who worries and feels mum guilt? It's women. We don't, I, I mean, I haven't, I spend a lot of time on the internet, but I haven't seen loads of men talking about dad guilt. I haven't heard a lot of men saying how hard they find it to manage their children's emotional development throughout, through our difficult society.Like that isn't a thing that a lot of men are talking about. It's not the case that no men are talking about it. So there are some prominent men who talk about this stuff. It doesn't fit with our societal narratives. So, I mean, I would recommend anybody to read, Robert Webb's, How Not to Be a Boy. I've really enjoyed that book. There's a really interesting, it's a half memoir, half…Laura: Like parenting?Kirstie: …musing on, well, yeah, it was useful in parenting, I think, in terms of he talks about how he would like to raise his children, bearing in mind what he's done. I would recommend Grayson Perry's book, The Descent of Man. That's a great small book. And it's, he's just got such a really great way of pinpointing the sort of weirdnesses of gender, like there's so many…and he's funny as well and warm, isn't he? He even made a TV programme that went along with that. Those books are relatively old, but I think they have a lot to say. I mean, Justin Baldoni, I don't know if you know him, he was in Jane the Virgin? If you've ever seen that. He was like the beefcake guy, I can't remember, he was called Raphael I think. He's written a book about how hard it was for him growing up and how much he struggled with his own body image. And the expectations placed on him as a young man and how hard he found it to be vulnerable and when someone showed him pornography when he was 12 or younger, he, you know, how he couldn't tell his parents and didn't know how to deal with this.And, you know, so there are some people talking about this, but they are so few and far between. And also it doesn't fall into the easy categories, I think, that we find it, that marketers find it easy to sell, that book publishers see the obvious opportunities, you know. And I think, you're right, men as a general rule aren't being asked to think about this. How are they going to change the world for their sons? Laura: Oh, well, you've given some really cool resources for us to check out and buy for our baby daddies! Right. For Father's Day or whatever, Christmas, whatever's coming up, where are we, what is time? And I think, you know, the work that you're doing is so critical as well and getting these conversations started and just thinking about, you know, like the little things like pants and how they have these huge repercussions.So Kirstie, before I let you go…at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been really into lately. So it can be a book, it can be…which you've just given us lots of books! But it could be something not to do with work. It could be an actual snack. It can be a podcast, anything that you would like to recommend to the listeners.Kirstie: I had a long think about this. And the thing is, I was thinking that in terms of my actual snacks, I do not have a sweet tooth. Oh, I know this is very…but basically I just want savoury things all the time. So the snacks that I have been snacking on is, I mean, I just eat crisps. I just love crisps.Laura: No shame in the crisp game.Kirstie: Just love crisps. But the thing that I've been really snacking on recently is miso soup. Laura: Miso. Oh, yum. Kirstie: Yeah. Because I, what I really crave in the middle of the day. Is like a hit of that salt. Salty, yes. Salty. Tasty. It feels like a hot velvet drink and so I'm always delighted when it's got cold enough. I feel like, yes, it's soup time. And so that's like my hit of salty deliciousness.Laura: Oh my God, that sounds so good. Actually, I never thought of just…I love miso soup, but like usually when I'm eating Japanese food. Yeah. I never thought of just like…cause you can get like, do you make up miso soup like with miso paste or do you do, like, the instant sachet stuff?Kirstie: I do have the paste, which I just stick in everything because I want everything to taste like that basically. But I bought powdered ones. And they are brilliant.Laura: And yeah, you just fill it up with the boiling water and…?Kirstie: Yeah, it's like two o'clock in the afternoon. I've had my lunch. And eat something else that's delicious.Laura: A little miso pick me up.Kirstie: A little pep me up.Laura: Yeah. Oh, yum. Okay, that's making me hungry just thinking about that. So I am going to be your inverse. And I am
Today on the podcast I'm joined by Dr. Molly Moffat - A GP who practices medicine from a weight inclusive, neurodiversity affirming lens, celebrating both diversity of bodies and of minds. In this episode, we are talking about how Molly moved away from recommending diets and weight loss to her patients, towards an anti-diet, weight-inclusive approach, focused on treating individuals with care and compassion. We get into what exactly medical anti-fat bias is and why it's so harmful, and she has some really lovely suggestions for how to talk to patients who come in with the idea that they have to lose weight for medical reasons. Find out more about Molly's work here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTRO:Molly: Fat folk don't go and see their doctor when they need to. And you know, I don't need to explain why that is a concern. That is a concern. It means that diagnoses are missed, diagnoses are made late, and it absolutely contributes to stress, mental health, physical health and health inequity in an already marginalised group of people.Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk all about appetite, bodies and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Molly Moffat. Molly is a GP with a special interest in learning disability and autism. She practices medicine from a weight inclusive, neurodiversity affirming lens, celebrating both diversity of bodies and of minds. She's neurodivergent herself and has three children. In this episode, Molly and I are talking about how she moved away from recommending diets and weight loss to her patients towards an anti diet, weight inclusive approach, focused on treating individuals with care and compassion. We get into what exactly medical anti-fat bias is and why it's so harmful, and she has some really lovely suggestions for how to talk to patients who come in with the idea that they have to lose weight for medical reasons. I really loved talking to Molly and I think you're going to enjoy this episode.But before we get to today's conversation, I want to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter and community. Now, I know we're not used to having to pay for content on the internet. and why would you pay for something where 85% of the content is free anyway?Well, because without paying supporters, this work just wouldn't be possible. None of the newsletter, not the podcast. As well as supporting me in the time it takes to research, interview contributors, and write articles, your support goes towards paying guests for their time and their labour, as well as a podcast and a newsletter editor, so it's a whole team effort.You also help me keep the space ad and sponsor free, so I don't have to sell out to advertisers or exploit my kid for freebies. Plus, keeping the community closed to paying subscribers only means that we keep the trolls and the fatphobes out. I recently asked the CIHAS community why they support the newsletter, and this is what one reader had to say:“I'm a mum of one fairly adventurous, self proclaimed vegetarian and one theoretical omnivore. The latter survives almost exclusively on added sugar and butter, but mostly sugar. I consumed all the picky eating advice, some of it really well meaning and pretty mellow, but by seven years in, I was more frustrated, confused, and full of self doubt than ever.Enter CIHAS. The no nonsense, cut through the bullshit, science backed content is exceptional. The content about sugar is especially helpful to me, and the anti diet lens is an antidote to my extremely anti fat/diet culture conditioning. And as an American, the British references are just an added bonus. To say your work is actively changing my life is not an understatement. Thank you.”Well, thank you to the reader who sent that really lovely review. Becoming a paid subscriber is a fiver a month or £50 for the year. And you get loads of cool perks as well as just my undying gratitude for supporting my work. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to subscribe now. All right, team, here's my conversation with Dr. Molly Moffatt. MAIN EPISODE:Hey Molly, can you start by telling us a little bit about you and the work that you do? Molly: Sure, yes. So I'm a GP, although I actually only do one day of general practice at the moment. I have a special interest in learning disability and autism. I've been working in that field for a few years, and I've recently started working in paediatrics, doing some neurodevelopmental assessments, and I also do some teaching for medical students. The reason I'm here is because I do my very best to practice in a weight inclusive manner, so I'm not worried about fat bodies, but I'm really worried about the way fat bodies are treated, particularly when they're trying to seek healthcare.Laura: Yeah, that's what you're here to talk about today, but I feel like we could probably have a whole other conversation about neurodivergence and feeding differences and all of that stuff, but I will try and rein myself in because, yeah, like you said, I really wanted to talk to you about how fat bodies are perceived and how they're treated in medical settings.So I'm wondering if you could kind of take us on a bit of a journey with you. Can you set the scene for us? You're a medic, straight out of training, going into your GP specialisation. At that point, what do you believe to be true about the relationship between weight and health?Molly: Okay. So I mean, all of my medical school teaching, all of my junior doctor training, and my GP training was absolutely based in this weight normative approach.So the idea that weight was a marker of health, and that we should be pursuing weight management for our fat patients. And there was never any discussion around where that came from. So, you know, it was just stated as a fact that ‘ob*sity' came with all of these comorbidities and put people at increased risk of X, Y, and Z.And, like I say, I never remember – and I'm really confident it didn't happen – any discussion around where the evidence behind those statements came from, and the fact that actually...it was really complex and that maybe there were some other factors at play that cause that association between body size and certain diseases.And I also never remember any conversation about weight stigma and the impact that that can have on people's health.Laura: Okay. Well, there's so much that I could kind of, like, tease out of what you just said there, but I think the sort of headline for me is just how this information was presented to you as complete certainty. I think if I'm kind of reading between the lines, or what I've even learned in my own training, that as weight goes up, the worse the health outcomes, right? Like in this linear sort of fashion. It sounds as though you learned something similar, but the evidence behind that was never really presented or unpacked or challenged in any way.And that's the part that I find most, like, terrifying because as medics you should be, like, challenging the evidence and not just, like, swallowing it whole and, you know, swallowing information whole and not kind of having any critical thought around it.Molly: I know, I agree. And of course there were things that we critically appraised and we were taught how to critically appraise, but the world of ‘ob*sity' was just something that was presented as a fact.And I feel so sad that I kind of missed out on all of those years of a greater understanding of how complex it was.Laura: You also mentioned weight stigma, which we'll come back to in a second, but coming back to this idea of how complex it is. So what were some of those messages that you received that oversimplified the relationship between weight and health?You know, I've kind of mentioned this idea that as weight goes up, that health invariably goes down. I'm wondering what other kinds of things that you picked up on that sort of reinforced those ideas.Molly: Yeah, I mean, absolutely kind of ‘eat less and move more' was something that we spouted. And, you know, when we were kind of practicing role play scenarios, one of the tick boxes was ‘give lifestyle advice'.Part of that was, you know, absolutely eat less and move more. And, you know, assumptions around a person's lifestyle and diet again was very much part of that message. That people were fat because they didn't exercise and they ate too much.Laura: And then they also lie to you, right, about how much they've eaten?That's…at least, that's the thread that we got in nutrition training, is that people who are higher weight, they're almost always lying about their dietary intake. And so you are already…I mean, think about how problematic that is, that you're already going in with the assumption that this person is lying to you about, you know, their lived experience, like, what does that do from the perspective of forming any kind of therapeutic relationship to go in with that understanding and assumption?Molly: Yeah, no, I agree entirely and, you know, let's think about when people are presenting to a healthcare setting, they're generally a bit nervous and anxious and feeling quite vulnerable and they are essentially quite powerless in that situation. And then imagine that they're also giving you information and telling you about their lifestyle and that's being doubted. It's horrible, isn't it?Laura: Yeah, it's really, really messed up when you slow it down and think about it. I'm wondering if there were any particular moments or specific patients that you remember that started to change that understanding a bit for you? That kind of threw a kink in that really simple narrative of ‘weight equals health', and ‘calories in equals calories out' and you know, we just need to go on a diet and then everyone will be thin?Molly: Yeah, I mean, my path towards kind of health at every size was quite convoluted. And actually it began with an interest in lifestyle medicine. So I was feeling quite…Laura: Oh, a detour into lifestyle medicine! Okay. The plot thickens.Molly: Yeah, the plot thickens. Absolutely. So. You know, I was feeling quite demoralised by the fact I was seeing a lot of chronic disease and that people were not getting any better and they were coming back to see me and I was giving them lots of medications and, you know, often those medications would come with fairly significant side effects. And so I guess what lifestyle medicine offered me, or what I thought it offered me, was the opportunity to really get to the bottom of those problems without the need for medication and the kind of idea that prevention was better than cure.And it appealed to me from a holistic perspective, you know, this was an opportunity to kind of see the person as a whole, rather than just focusing on an individual symptom. So I was actually really excited and really motivated. But what I found with time was that, first of all, I became more uncomfortable with the dynamic that was being played out, which was me as this middle class professional who carried a significant amount of privilege telling people how to live their lives that with time felt more icky.And also that people weren't able to do all the things we were discussing, or if they did do…follow the advice that I was giving them, it wasn't really making them feel any better because, hey, you know, there are these things called social determinants of health, which actually great…you know, carry a greater significance than personal behaviours.Laura: I'm just wondering for people who maybe aren't familiar with like, the world of lifestyle medicine, if you could say a little bit more about that and kind of the type of advice that you were giving people, like when you say lifestyle advice, what exactly does that mean? And I understand it's like a whole range of things, but yeah, I'm curious to hear how you applied that in your practice.Molly: So, I mean, it was looking at kind of core areas. Those core areas were: sleep, stress management, nutrition, and exercise and, you know, within the nutrition arm, I'm really sad to say that weight loss played a part of that. And, you know, whilst I tried to make that as individualised as possible to the person in front of me, inherently, there is an element of elitism really with lifestyle advice, I feel that, again, just didn't really quite sit right with me. And I actually found myself feeling a bit irritated. If I'm honest, I was feeling irritated that people weren't doing what I was asking. And luckily I had the insight to acknowledge that, you know, that was a me problem, not a them problem.What I realised was that I wasn't really irritated with them. I was just really frustrated that, you know, here was what I thought was this chance to really make people's lives better. And actually it wasn't having the impact that I thought it would.Laura: It's almost as though…and this is totally my perspective and my, I think, a little bit of prejudice against lifestyle medicine.But there…it's kind of this underlying assumption that people need you to tell them what to do because they don't know any better.Molly: Yeah, they don't know. Oh, it's so patronising. Laura: Yeah. And it's like a kind of a knowledge deficit. Molly: Absolutely. Laura: When most people, they do understand the importance of sleep and they do understand, like, it's helpful to, like, move their bodies in some way and to eat some vegetables.Molly: Absolutely. That rings true so much with me. You know, I hear these conversations where people are talking about healthy weight management and you know, the suggestions are, well, ‘let's teach people how to cook'. And I just think, oh, for goodness sake. You know, it's so patronising to assume that people don't know how to cook and that you're kind of…it's this kind of saviour complex that, well, let's teach them how to cook because they don't know that and therefore their life's going to be okay.They do know how to cook, but what if they've, you know, got three jobs because they need to work three jobs in order to pay the bills? They don't have time to cook.Laura: What if they just don't like…because they've got their own cultural background, they cook food in a very different way than how you cook food or like there's a whole number of reasons why like that might just not only fall flat but It could be problematic for some people. You know, especially if they're like, well, ‘my doctor is telling me I need to do this, but this doesn't really align with either my values or you know, what I'm able to access or have time for the competing messages that I'm getting from within my family' or whatever it might be.So there's a lot of idealisation I think that goes on in the lifestyle medicine community and not a deep enough understanding of social determinants of health, like you said.Molly: I think that's the big, big part that's missing in lifestyle medicine and the recognition…recognition of the social determinants of health.Laura: Absolutely. And even just like the understanding that even if everybody did eat whatever Rangan Chatterjee is spouting off that we should eat, it doesn't mean that our health will all kind of play out along the same lines. So we were going through your journey.Molly: Yeah, so I was talking about lifestyle medicine and feeling just a bit uncomfortable with the whole thing.And of course at that time I was nurturing a special interest in neurodiversity, kind of recognising my own neurodivergence and my children's neurodivergence. And so eating disorders were kind of very much on my radar. And so intuitively I just didn't like the idea of creating any kind of fear or anxiety around food that just felt wrong.And, you know, that's what we were doing when we were talking about nutrition, the world of nutrition is also extremely confusing. And it was confusing for me. You know, you have all these people giving really compelling arguments as to why their diet is the best. And they're able to give you all this evidence that backs up their claims.But the kind of general theme, yes, is that we are creating this fear and anxiety around, often, whole groups of food.Laura: I mean, wow. There's so much that we could say even about that. Like I got a message from a parent the other day who was like, I feel like I need to have a degree in nutrition to feed my child.I was just like, yeah, that's how fucking convoluted we have made nutrition with all the kind of competing expert voices who are shouting about, you know, their diet as being the best diet and even like among amongst paediatric feeding professionals and, well, just feediatric…did I just invent a new word?! Paediatric dieticians and nutritionists, there's, you know, there's a right and a wrong way.And like you say, it really creates a lot of fear and anxiety about messing up. And it plays into our fears about not being a good enough parent. And yeah, it really, like, tugs on a lot of different parts of us. Where did it go from there then once you had this kind of recognition of like, well, I don't want to be adding fuel to the fire of eating disorders, disordered eating and making food scary for, you know…I'm thinking about patients of yours that might be neurodivergent where food might already be really scary.Where did it go from there?Molly: Where it went from there is that I went on maternity leave.Laura: Get out of there!Molly: Yeah, exactly. So I went on maternity leave with this kind of feeling of disconnect and that something wasn't right and I needed to do something. And of course maternity leave provided me with the opportunity to listen to lots of podcasts and read lots of things while sat feeding a baby. So that's how I actually stumbled across health at every size. You know, the kind of the parenting path that I've chosen to take meant that I was already aware of, you know, division of responsibility and intuitive eating and kind of food neutrality and body neutrality. So I was already, already aware of those. And, you know, I was…again, intuitively the idea of the language that I was using around food and bodies with my children was very important.So I think I actually listened to a podcast. I think it might have been the Full Blooms podcast that I listened to. And I think was being interviewed on that. And that was the first time I heard the words kind of anti diet and health at every size. And yeah, when I have a special interest, I really have a special interest. So, you know, 158 podcasts later, um, yeah, there I was. And, you know, there I was in this state of…a combination of so many feelings of kind of frustration, guilt, sadness, anger, disbelief. Yeah, you know, I kind of had this very strong sense of justice and feel things very deeply and it…I found it very consuming to begin with. This feeling that I'd been getting it wrong and why are more people not talking about this? Why is this not more mainstream? And really, people should be talking about this. And I wanted to tell everybody I knew about this because this is so important.Laura: I've heard a similar version of that story from not just other medical professionals, but also clients of mine who are like, why, why isn't everyone talking about this?And they want to kind of. become these little social justice warriors and really just, like, shout it from the rooftops. But what I really appreciated, Molly, there, was just you talking about all the complexity of the feelings that came up for you, because I think oftentimes, particularly if you're in the medical profession or any kind of allied health profession, because you're in that caring profession, your automatic line of thinking is often, wow, I've caused so much harm.And, and you feel an immense amount of guilt for continuing to prescribe diets when you're learning that diets don't work and you think about all the encounters you've had with patients that might have inadvertently increased their experiences of stigma and harm. And again, we'll come to talk about that more in a bit.I suppose my point is really that…of course you're going to feel that way and that doesn't have to be where it ends being kind of stuck with those feelings of guilt. And so hopefully there was also like a glimmer of hope in there as well? Molly: Oh gosh, yes. Laura: Well, I'm wondering as well, because it sounds like you were quite disenchanted before you went on maternity leave. So did this feel like, okay, this is something that…this is a missing piece of the puzzle for me, for my practice going forward?Molly: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I have complete conviction about it. And I did at the time and I still have now, you know, this is absolutely the way I want to practice. And I do have hope.And I do think that in 20 years time, maybe even 10 years time, we are going to change the way we look at weight and weight management, well, weight management, you know, will not be a thing.Laura: Just abolish weight management. Molly: Yeah, absolutely. Laura: You've used the term health at every size and I'm wondering if you could just give a brief kind of like, explainer of what health at every size is for people who haven't encountered it before. Or weight inclusive healthcare, you know, like whatever feels more comfortable for you.Molly: Yeah, I mean, I guess let's talk about the kind of weight-inclusive, the weight inclusive approach, which is probably what I feel kind of most comfortable with. Laura: Same. Molly: Yeah. So the idea that weight isn't a marker of health, and that people of any size deserve good quality, compassionate, equal access to healthcare, that weight loss isn't possible for most people, and that actually trying to achieve weight loss brings with it lots of concerning things like, a, you know, problematic relationship with food, risk for eating disorders, and weight cycling, so weight going up and down, which again is bad for us, along with stress, and again, stress is not good for us.Laura: Yeah, so there's, there's a lot to even think about within there, but I think that even that first idea is really radical and it shouldn't be, right? That first idea of like, people of all sizes deserve equal access to healthcare and it should all be delivered with compassion and care. And I think most of us, at least those of us who have thin privilege, for us that's more or less a given.Although, you know, I've had plenty of shady encounters with doctors, but in general, you know, I am treated well, whereas, and certainly stories I've heard from clients and, you know, fat activists and people online is that that is…and that's, this is what bears out in the evidence as well, is that that is not guaranteed.That people of a higher body weight can walk into a GP surgery, maybe they're seeking care for, I don't know, a sore throat or a pain in their hand. And to call back to your earlier point about how you have to make these, like, lifestyle recommendations. Patients who are of a higher weight, regardless of what they present for, are almost often given a prescription for weight loss, or they might even be handed a coupon for Slimming World, right?Like the NHS partners with Slimming World too, and some other weight loss companies. But even if that's not what that person came in for, or even if that person said in no uncertain terms, I do not want to talk about weight loss. weight. That's not what I'm here for. I don't want to diet. The doctor generally won't respect that boundary. Um, yeah.Molly: And what's so sad is that I see patients preempting that. So I have patients that come to me who will say, ‘I know I need to lose weight', or ‘I know I'm a bigger girl', you know, it's almost like…because they are so anticipating me saying it and so nervous about that conversation, that they kind of want to say it, so it's out the way.Laura: Yeah. What do you think that's about? What do you think's going on there?Molly: Well, I mean, I think they're feeling vulnerable and anxious. And as I said, they are so used to their doctor saying something about their size that it's almost like they kind of just want to get it out of the way. If I say it, then they won't say it.Laura: Yeah, almost like a defence, it sounds like.Molly: Yeah, absolutely. And it, you know, it's so sad.Laura: And how do you approach that with a patient then if they, if they start a consultation off like that, I'm kind of jumping ahead of myself here a little bit, but thinking about, you know, how from this new perspective of, of being a weight inclusive doctor, do you approach that conversation and start to kind of, you know, take them on a, in a slightly different direction than, than they might have been accustomed to.Molly: So it's not easy and it's something that I'm still kind of trying to work out. And of course, you know, bearing in mind, I have 10-15 minutes with these people. And of course, it's not like they come to me and they say, Oh, you know, tell me what you think about my weight, or do you think I need to lose weight?They come to me with the assumption that I believe they should lose weight, and they, you know, usually they will come about something else like, you know, a chest infection or a sore throat, and their weight will... come up as part of that consultation. You know, that kind of respectful two way dialogue is a really important part for me of the weight inclusive approach.And, you know, in the same way that I feel very strongly that a weight centric consultation is horrible because it's that kind of didactic, this is what you must do. Similarly, you know, me just telling somebody, you don't need to lose weight equally wouldn't sit right with me. And of course, I'm very hyper aware in that scenario of my own thin privilege and how insensitive of me it would be to just kind of, you know, dismiss them and say, you don't need to worry about your weight because that would be really kind of minimising their experience.And of course they have had to worry about their weight because their size has meant that they have faced many obstacles and horrible things happen to them and discrimination and so I think it's really important to kind of acknowledge that. So what I try and do is to actually apologise and say, I'm so sorry that anybody has made you feel that your body is flawed and needs fixing. I don't believe that. And I explain my background and I say, you know, I spent the last few years learning a lot about weight science and reflecting, and as a result of that learning, I now don't see weight as a marker of health and I don't recommend weight loss to my patients and I explain the reasons for that. Laura: Oh my God. I feel kind of emotional hearing you say that just because of just how powerful it would be, I mean, for anyone to hear that who's, you know, had concerns about their weight, but particularly for, for fat folks and, and like, I'm thinking specifically of, of a couple of clients of mine in the past, who've just had horrendous experiences with their GP, even when I have preemptively written to the GP saying, like: ‘this person has a history of disordered eating and we're not pursuing intentional weight loss for these reasons. Here's all this science that you can read to say why this isn't a good idea', and then still had, you know, yeah, just horrendous experiences. And so yeah, just to have a GP who is so compassionate and understanding. First of all, you're signalling that you're a safe person to them. And secondly, you're signalling that you can come and talk to me about this stuff. Like, even if they're not there about their weight, they want to get their antibiotics for their chest infection and just get out of there. But in the future, if that comes up, they know that they can come to you and approach you. And it's just, it feels like a really powerful thing to me.Molly: People do cry, actually. I've had a few people cry when I've said that.Laura: I bet they do. Yeah. I hope that any other GPs listening are frantically taking notes at this point of a little, a little spiel that they can say to their clients. And, and has that gone on to open up any other conversations with patients? Or kind of, you say that people get emotional, but what besides that is the response?Molly: like I say, emotional that that's not something they've ever heard anybody say before. And I guess kind of relief. I mean, at the same time, you know, I fully recognise that they will have had a lifetime of being told different things. So, you know, it will take a lot of time for them to completely change their thinking. But yeah, people do come back and have come back to speak to me about it.And, you know, normally what I say is, how would you feel about us instead thinking about certain health behaviours and how we can talk about those, but without weight loss being the goal? And I, I give them that to kind of think about really.Laura: And how do you make it so that that doesn't end up feeling like an earlier lifestyle medicine conversation?Molly: And I'm very conscious of that too. And I guess I make sure that I point out that the reason I don't want weight loss to be the goal is because when weight loss does become the goal, actually those behaviours... become quite unhealthy. As I said, I'm not quite sure I've got it right just yet. I'm constantly trying to think in my head how I can script these things in a way that does mean that people are going to come back to see me to talk about it because I want to talk to everybody about it and I want them to come back and see me, and like you say, for them to feel safe.Laura: Yeah. And I mean, fundamentally your job is to help people care for themselves and to offer them care. So yeah, you, you also can't be sort of, you can't completely ignore, you know, health promoting behaviours, but I suppose like, at least for me, it's eliciting from the individual what is important to them and what feels doable for them.So it's like really basic motivational interviewing stuff. Yeah. Yeah. How can we work from where you already are. And again, it speaks to that piece that a lot of times people already know the things that they need to do. And so it's just supporting them with the changes that they already want to make or not make and holding space for that as well. And offering them the medication if that's actually what they need.Molly: And there being no shame around that, you know? Laura: Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. It's like a whole new way of doing medicine. So we've talked about a little bit around this concept of weight stigma, because there's a sort of very particular experience of weight stigma that happens in medical settings, or we could also use the words anti fatness to, I think, better describe weight stigma.And yeah, just a sort of side note, weight stigma tends to be a very, like, neutered term that is used in academia, whereas I think in, in critical fat studies and, and in fat liberation spaces, they're more and more using the word anti-fat bias, which really speaks to what that is. Can you explain a little bit more of what that means and how it plays out in a medical setting and how it is so harmful and damaging for people's health?Molly: Yeah. I mean, what we're referring to there is, as you say, the anti-fat bias that people who work in healthcare carry. So meaning a preference to thin bodies and kind of prejudice towards fat bodies. And that's experienced by fat people as weight stigma, that's really, really concerning and it can present in many ways, but it's, let's give you some examples of what that can look like in a GP surgery.So that can look like a fat person coming to see their GP and, as you said earlier, having every symptom put down to their weight, weight loss being the answer for everything. It can mean a fat person losing weight and that weight loss being celebrated, rather than that weight loss being considered the red flag that it should be and being investigated correctly. It can look like there not being the right equipment available, so therefore the necessary examination doesn't take place, the right investigations don't take place. It can look like the treatment options that are available for thin people not being available or accessible to fat people. And, you know, all of this means that fat folk don't go and see their doctor when they need to.And, you know, I don't need to explain why that is a concern. That is a concern. It means that diagnoses are missed, diagnoses are made late and it absolutely contributes to stress. Mental health, physical health, and health inequity in an already marginalized group of people. I find it so concerning.Laura: When you list it all out like that, it just puts it into perspective how healthcare for...fat people is anything but care. It's anything but health. It's, yeah, prejudice, and marginalisation and, yeah, violence. I think a lot of times. Yeah. Because it can kind of, I was just thinking of another example of what people have told me that they've had to go for like two or three oral glucose tolerance tests in pregnancy, because their doctors have, are just baffled that these people aren't…Molly: Couldn't possibly be diabetic…Laura: Couldn't possibly be diabetic... Because there's an assumption, I think made about what fat people's health should be. Molly: Absolutely. Laura: You know, I want to caveat this whole conversation by saying that nobody owes anyone health and yeah, health is, is morally neutral, right? Molly: Absolutely. Yeah. Laura: But there is a very pervasive idea that fat people cannot also have, you know, markers that we would traditionally consider to be within normal range or are healthy by virtue of the fact that they're fat. But I think what the evidence shows us over and over again, when we really dig through it, is that independent of your body size, you can have markers of health. Like, cardio respiratory health, low cholesterol, or like within the healthy range, not have type 2 diabetes, not have high blood pressure. But I think the assumption that I hear from medical colleagues is that people will invariably have those things if they're a higher weight.Molly: Yeah. And you know, when we think about children, I see that, that we have a child who, in terms of their kind of metabolic health markers is healthy. And yet because they are a certain weight that's pathologised and they are treated as if they are a pathology, whereas actually there is nothing wrong with them when you look at their blood results and their blood pressure.Laura: Yeah, because I did want to ask you a little bit about, about kids, if that's okay.I realize it's a bit of a detour, but I'm, I'm curious to hear if you were the parent of that child that you mentioned who might be a higher body weight, but you know, otherwise there's nothing there to worry about. Or even if there is something to worry about, you know, do you have any advice for parents of how to navigate health care and, you know, have these approach these conversations with their GP, you know, to say, like, ‘I don't want to focus on their weight. What else can we do to support this child?'Molly: Yeah, I mean, I think that's what you've just said is a really good way of framing it. Laura: I just realised I just answered my own question!Molly: And, you know, I really, really feel for parents in this situation because it must be such a horrible confrontation. To be faced with health care professionals who are telling you that you need to do something about your child's weight, and yet you have a child in front of you and you're worried about how they feel about their body, how they feel about themselves. And I guess, you know, the sad thing is that many parents do believe what a doctor says to them, and so would put their child on a diet, which just horrifies me and breaks my heart of what we're doing to children when we do that. But yeah, I mean, I think as you posed it perfectly, you know…'I'm happy to talk about health behaviours, but I'm not happy to focus on my child's weight and the reasons for that are that I don't want my child to develop an eating disorder and my child's relationship with their body and food is really important to me.'Laura: That's a really brave thing, a really brave thing to have to do as a parent. I mean, I know trying to like stand up to…I remember declining to be weighed at my booking appointment for the maternity pathway, and the nurse was just so aggressive with me. She was just like, ‘computer says no'. And I was like, but I don't have to do this. But I was in such a like, fragile state. Molly: Of course. Of course. Yeah. Laura: Trying to push back on a healthcare professional when they're not receptive to it. And also, like, there's some weird stuff there, but like, if you decline a test, which is basically what I did decline, they should respect that. And they didn't. So that's like a whole other thing. But my point is that pushing back on a, on a healthcare, an authoritative, an authoritative healthcare provider is really, really challenging.So I think to step into that space as a parent is, it's really hard.Molly: Really, really hard. Absolutely. I do not underestimate that at all. You know, I recently got told that I shouldn't be breastfeeding my two and a half year old and. You know, I approached that situation as a doctor with privilege, and I found that very difficult.Laura: Oh, so a healthcare professional told you?Molly: Yeah, yeah. What? That it currently wasn't offering any nutritional value. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not trying to compare that to how it must feel as a parent of a fat child, but, uh, you know, I understand that. Yeah. Confronting somebody in a position of authority is extremely, extremely difficult.And I wish people didn't have to have those conversations.Laura: Well, I hope you told them where to shove it with, with their comments about feeding. Molly: I pulled down my top and latched them. Laura: Love it. Okay. Well. Yes, as a still feeding a preschooler, I totally, totally respect your decision to, to keep feeding. And yes, also if you have any tips for how the fuck to get them to self-wean…! Molly: No, sadly not, no! Laura: Uh, he'll stop one day, I keep telling myself. We were just talking a bit about how anti fatness presents itself in the medical setting and how people are less likely to have their experiences believed, they are less likely to be offered the follow up…what's the word, the medical word, I'm struggling to find the medical word, like the assessments and…Molly: Investigations? Laura: Thank you, that they, they might need. Weight loss is often celebrated when it's a red flag for, you know, if it was a thin person, it would be definitely a red flag, but that just doesn't register. There's, I say ‘avoidance' kind of in quotation marks, avoidance of healthcare and kind of ‘noncompliance' again in inverted commas because they are such loaded problematic terms, because they put the blame on the individual instead of on the medical professional who is often perpetrating violence against that person. And so, yeah, I just want to kind of give that caveat. Yeah. And it can encourage…or it can mean that people die. Like it's, it's often a case of life, life or death because people understandably don't want to go see their GP.There's a really powerful piece, I'm not sure Molly, if you've read it, by Marquisele Mercedes in Pipewrench Magazine, where she's talking about not just the intersection of anti-fatness and medical care, but also anti-blackness because there's a another layer here when someone is racialised about assumptions made about like their pain threshold and, and tolerance. And it's a really eye-opening read if you haven't already read it. So I'm gonna link to that in the show notes just to give people like more, yeah, a kind of deeper understanding of some of these issues. I'm curious to hear, since you've adopted more of a white inclusive approach, if you've had any pushback from your colleagues and if you have, how do you handle that?Molly: So actually, I haven't. Not that I know about, not that anybody has spoken to me about, and actually, I...Laura: You're just keeping it under your hat because you're just alone in that GP room. You don't have to, like, deal with other doctors on a ward.Molly: I mean, that does help, absolutely, that I do have a lot of autonomy. And yes, I'm in my room and I see my patients. I did do a presentation to my colleagues about weight inclusive care, which I was really nervous about. And isn't that funny? Because... You know, I was thinking about the fact I was far more nervous doing that than I would be doing other presentations and, you know, these days I do a fair amount of presenting, and I kind of unpicked that. I thought, let's think about the crux of what I'm saying here and the crux of what I'm saying here is, you know, the point I made earlier that people of all sizes deserve compassionate, good, equal access to health care, which really, I would hope that most, yeah, doctors are on board with, members of the caring profession would be behind.But yeah, so the presentation went well and, you know, people came to speak to me afterwards and said, it kind of made them think, and they'd be really interested in knowing a little bit more. So that was positive. I mean, as GPs, the idea that weight loss isn't sustainable is something that we see day in, day out. And so I don't think that's too difficult for GPs to get behind. Laura: Okay. And just to kind of expand on that point a little bit, because I know we've, we've talked around this idea that diets don't work. And again, I'll link to a piece that I wrote about the diet cycle and, and this sort of why diets don't work, but just to give like a really quick overview of what the weight science literature tells us is essentially there are – and this is simplifying things, and Molly, feel free to jump in and like expand on anything I'm saying, but what happens when we go on a diet is sort of twofold. First of all, so we reduce the amount of food that we're consuming, right? That's the fundamental premise of any diet. They all work the same way, right? ‘Work' initially, at least initially. So you might initially see a little bit of. of weight loss, but then your body starts responding to that by dialling up your hunger and appetite hormones, because what it's trying to do is defend your genetically determined set point weight, right?This blueprint that we have for…I like to think of it as a kind of comfortable zone that our bodies will, like, prefer to be in because there's usually always some fluctuation within that, right? Like our weight just kind of goes up and down on its own through various, you know, stages of life. But overall it likes to stay within a window, shall we say.If we're trying to push it down below that comfortable window, our body will respond by amping up hunger and appetite hormones to drive up our appetite, to get us up off of our asses to go and find some food, right? Like it's an evolutionary mechanism. So that's why you kind of end up diving headfirst into a bread basket or, you know, I always say like you find yourself elbow deep in a tube of Pringles if you're, if you're on a diet, like that, that's what can happen. And it's because there are these biological mechanisms driving that. If for some reason you are able to kind of ride that out, you maybe develop some unhealthy coping mechanisms to sort of essentially ignore your hunger, then what can happen is that your body has another mechanism to try and make up for that, which is to slow down your metabolism. Right, so it can kind of…either you can get more food to defend your set point weight, or all the functions in your body can sort of slow down. It often starts with what are considered non essential functions, like reproduction. So you might notice that you're, if you're menstruating, that your period becomes irregular, your hair might kind of become less thick, your nails might get, I mean, your skin might get a bit dull, but then because your body can't sort of say, okay, turn off this system, but leave all the other ones on, you'll notice it kind of like playing out in, in other areas.So somewhere that I see kind of play out a lot is digestion, which I think we can all agree is an essential function, but you start to notice, you might notice it as like IBS type symptoms, constipation, bloating, diarrhoea, all of these things can be a function of not having enough to eat. So, as your metabolism is slowing down, you will obviously get this plateau in weight loss or your weight might start to increase or you could have both things happening kind of simultaneously where your metabolism is dialling down and then at the same time your hunger hormones are dialling up so you have what I call ‘the fuck it effect' where you know it's like the floodgates open and you're just raiding the fridge. And it's kind of funny but also it's a really distressing experience for people sometimes, if you don't understand what's going on, which is…it's your primal biological urge to eat is kind of overtaking you and you were just trying to meet your needs however you want, but it can feel really chaotic and out of control and oftentimes we label it as like food addiction or comfort eating sometimes, or like, yeah, we pathologise it somehow, even when that's not really what's going on.So that was…more of a detour than I wanted to go on, but I thought it was important to explain a little bit of the mechanics as to why diets don't work. Did you have anything you wanted to add to that, Molly?Molly: No, I think you have summarised that perfectly. My headline would be, bodies are very clever, don't underestimate them.Laura: Absolutely. Yeah, that is a way better way of putting it. But so, medical colleagues, they don't have too much difficulty understanding or kind of appreciating that weight loss is not sustainable. So they see that day to day in their practice. So they…it's an easy sell? Molly: Yes, it's an easy sell. Exactly. Laura: When you kind of go back and fill in, like, some of the stuff that probably should have been taught in medical school, but for whatever reason wasn't…I say probably should have been taught. I mean, definitely should have been taught in medical school, but wasn't. What other kinds of, like, questions or what things did you come up against when having these conversations with colleagues?Molly: So yeah, that is an easy sell. The harder sell is around the idea that, well, ‘ob*sity' being a thing and, you know, it's associated co-morbidities. Also, what is tricky…so even after I'd kind of finished the talk and had a conversation about it, the conversation turned to, but we do need to think about how safe it is to refer somebody with a BMI of over 30 for any replacement.So, you know, the kind of idea that the research that is at the core of, you know, our approaches and the weight centric approach is full of bias and quite frankly, fat phobia. And that's when I start to feel very conspiratorial, which I hate.Laura: I know exactly what you mean. Yeah.Molly: But I think it's a, you know, it's a really important part of the puzzle, and people really need to appreciate that, that actually research, you know, I think Fiona Willer described it as “a persuasive piece of writing”, which I think's a really important way to look at it, because that's what, you know, research really is. And that, you know, people are generally trying to prove a point when they start a piece of research. And because we live in this inherently fat phobic society, people are generally trying to prove that fat is bad.Laura: And so what you're saying is there, and there's a great paper that explores this, there's a BMJ paper that explores all the underlying assumptions in weight research, all these biases that Molly is describing.They filter through into the research that we get. So it becomes this like, circular, like, self fulfilling kind of thing, where we are looking for problems with higher weight and worse health outcomes. So we find them, right? Like it becomes this yeah, very… Molly: Confirmation bias. Laura: Exactly. That's, that's the right word I was looking for.So I'll link to a couple of papers that for anyone, for like medical students or even nutrition, any allied health professionals who are interested in learning more about this, because it's a lot to kind of take in. And we're, I feel like just getting to the tip of the iceberg here. Thank you for reading Can I Have Another Snack?. This post is public so feel free to share it.Molly: And I guess the other point to make about the research as well that people really need to appreciate is that it's, you know, I've said before, but it's really complex.And so, you know, let's take the example of post operative complications of a knee replacement. And by the way, I haven't really done a deep dive on this, so….I'm just kind of using it as an example rather than it being something I know a lot about, but, you know, let's imagine that there is an increased association between post operative complications in somebody with a high BMI after a knee replacement.Is that as simple as a person's fat and therefore they're going to be at risk of post operative complications, or is it that they are really stressed in a hospital because they know that they're going to be made to feel bad about their body size? Is it that they didn't have the right equipment available to carry out the operation or to, you know, anesthetise that person? Is it that anti fat bias has played a part in the treatment that they've received post operatively? We really, really need to be digging deeper and looking at the complexities around these kind of headlines that form the part of, yeah, our management.Laura: So yeah, what you, what you're talking about there is the sort of potential confounding variables that don't get measured for, that help explain the relationship between X and Y.Yeah. But we just…we see the X and the Y and we don't see all the – this is a terrible analogy – all the other letters, but we're looking for cause and effect, but we're not actually looking at all the other complicating factors that might result in that outcome. I think. Because our, like, primal monkey brains love simple explanations for things, right? They don't want things to be complicated, but they are way more complicated than they first seem. So, last thing I want to ask you about is...Whether you have any advice for medical students or even physicians who are bumping up against anti fat bias, either in their training or with their colleagues?Molly: Well, I guess I really hope there are people in the medical profession listening to this who do share our beliefs and, you know, I'd love to hear from you because solidarity is really important. You know, it can feel quite lonely. I guess my advice would be to kind of stick to your guns and hold on to those values and know that you are keeping people safe and you will mean that people feel able to come and see you who wouldn't otherwise have felt safe coming to see you. And that's really important. And you know, when I'm doubting myself or feeling a bit exhausted by swimming against the tide, what I tell myself is, well, let's think about the alternative. And the alternative is not something that I can entertain. In terms of conversations with colleagues, I mean, podcasts, I really find useful as a way of kind of signposting people to snippets of information and also talking about yourself. So, you know, people are more receptive if you kind of critique your own bias as opposed to critiquing theirs.Laura: Yeah, exactly.Molly: So, you know. A conversation like, you know, I'm thinking about a medical student sat in clinic with somebody saying something like, ‘Oh, I've been thinking about my own anti-fat bias, or I've been thinking about weight stigma and how I might be contributing to that and how that's something I'd really like to address'. You know, that kind of thing just plants that seed, doesn't it? And means that, whether they react perfectly in the moment may mean that that person then has to think about it themselves and reflects on it themselves and does a bit of reading.Laura: Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And you can always, you know, if they are open to, to reading more, like, like I said, you could, I'll link to some papers that you could share with them doing a journal club around those papers or like you did, Molly, a presentation that can also be ways to open up conversations within a department or you know, a university setting or something like that, where you can all be kind of working through some of this stuff together, rather than sort of siloed on, on your own. Because I think it can feel really lonely if you're the only little salmon swimming upstream.Molly: It's really hard work, isn't it? Really hard work being the pariah.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. But I'm really grateful for everything that you're doing. And you know, even if we don't change anyone else's minds, just the fact that you're showing up for your patients the way that you are is so important. So yeah, thank you for that work. At the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been snacking on. It could be anything you like, a show, a podcast, an actual little snack. So what have you been snacking on lately, Molly?Molly: So I have a television show that I've been watching that I'm actually able to share. I have a very specific criteria when it comes to television shows that I'm willing to watch because I'm such an empath that I can't bear watching anything that involves, you know, people being treated badly or humiliated or murdered, you know, anything like that. No, and it also has to be very relatable. I can't, my brain just cannot, you know, get into kind of wizardry and magicians and stuff. I have been watching Couples Therapy, which is a documentary on BBC iPlayer, which films couples going through therapy. And it's like reality TV, but without the vacuous….Laura: The drama. Yeah, okay.Molly: Yeah. And yeah, without the drama. So, I mean, there is drama, but it's a really kind of measured drama, and I just love watching the process. I love seeing the dynamic and seeing how it all pans out. I think the therapist is amazing. Oh. And it's fascinating. Laura: So these are real, these are real therapy sessions? They've not been staged?Molly: They've not. No. No.Laura: Oh wow. It's wild. It's real. I have no idea how they got that through any kind of ethics, but…Molly: Yeah. Yeah. Good point. But it's, but it's…Laura: I mean, it sounds interesting. Who doesn't want to listen in to other people's therapy sessions? Molly: Yeah. I mean, I didn't watch it thinking, oh gosh, I feel really bad that this person is doing this on didn't, it didn't feel like that. It actually felt really, you know, therapeutic.Laura: Like I did a documentary with BBC. a long time ago now and there was like a clinical psychologist on the support staff team so I figure that there has to be like someone…that person who's, yeah, just like making sure everything is contained and everyone is safe and yeah like, yeah, no one is, like, baring their soul on national TV who is gonna regret that they said those things. So that sounds really interesting. Okay, so my snack is sort of, I think, well, really related to what we have been talking about. So the book that I have been reading at the moment is called Sugar Rush: Science, Politics, and the Demonization of Fatness. It's by Karen Throsby, who is a sociologist and it is a bit more on the academic side, but it is so fascinating.Basically what she's done is a content analysis of like 500 odd different newspaper articles and books from about, I think just before the implementation of the sugar tax, or maybe when the sugar tax was being debated, all the way through to like 2020 with Boris Johnson's latest round of anti ‘ob*sity' policy.She's just tracing kind of like the history of the sugar tax and the way that the media talks about it and some like key anti sugar figures and some of the, like, the rhetoric around sugar and how it has been kind of like socially constructed. And it's also linking it to the demonization of fatness as, yeah, the subtitle suggests.But what I found really interesting is just how she talks a lot about these ideas that are written into policy documents that are so kind of assertive and confident and definitive that are the similar things that you and I have been talking about in this podcast about the relationship between weight and health that are just in all of these policy documents are just like, like, given at face value and there's no further sort of exploration of the science and I'm only kind of the first couple of chapters, but I'm really enjoying it.It's really good. It appeals to my, like, super nerdy nutrition brain where I want to understand the trajectory of all of these policies and how they all kind of interlink and build on one another. And it also has a fair amount of Jamie Oliver bashing. So I'm here for that. So yeah, Sugar Rush by Karen Throsby. So I will link to Couple's Therapy. Is that the name of your show? Couple's Therapy on iPlayer and Sugar Rush in the show notes. All right, Molly, before I let you go, can you let everyone know where they can find out more about you and your work?Molly: So I am on Instagram as @antidietGP, um, similarly on Facebook as Anti Diet GP. Be great to see you there. Laura: All right, I will link to both of those in the show notes so people can come find you and yeah, let us know what you think of this episode and thank you so much again for your work, Molly. It was really good to talk to you. Molly: Oh, thank you.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI last week: When Your Friend Announces They're on a Diet… * Rapid Response: Why I don't like ‘this food does a little/this food does a lot'* Dear Laura... How do I stop wishing for the past and accept myself now?* Bandit Standing on the Scales is Not Even the Worst Part of Bluey This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe
In today's CIHAS episode, I'm speaking to online personal trainer and performance nutritionist, Michael Ulloa. Michael is on a mission to make the fitness industry a more welcoming and accepting space for all, which is exactly what we dive into in this ‘sode. We are unpacking some toxic myths about exercise, Michael spills the beans on his feelings about Joe Wicks, and we discuss what really goes into professional fitness models' photo shoots. Plus we answer loads of your questions like how to find a more joyful relationship with movement after a lifetime of using it as punishment for eating. Find out more about Michael's work here.Follow his work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTRO:Michael: The way that we're being sold health and fitness just isn't sustainable or achievable in any way and then people blame themselves and feel worse and then therefore they're more likely to spend money on all these other programs repeatedly and it's just a vicious cycle that just doesn't ever end.Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast, where we talk about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas. I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter. Today, I'm talking to Michael Ulloa.Michael is an online personal trainer and performance nutritionist who is on a mission to make the fitness industry a more welcoming and accepting space for all. In today's episode, Michael and I are shooting the shit about the fitness industry, unpacking some toxic myths about exercise, and answering loads of your questions: like how to find a more joyful relationship with movement after a lifetime of using it as punishment for eating.Some of you have been asking for more episodes on movement and fitness, so I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. We'll get to Michael in just a second, but first, I want to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter and community.For just £5 a month, or £50 a year, you get access to the extended CIHAS universe. That means exclusive weekly discussion threads, links and recommendations, you get commenting privileges and access to my monthly Dear Laura column, as well as the whole CIHAS archive and a few other sweet perks, but more than anything, you're supporting independent evidence based nutrition information free from diet culture and anti fatness. I can't do this work without the help of paying subscribers. So if you get something out of being here, then please consider upgrading your subscription today. And if you're still not convinced, then check out this recent review I received from a reader. They said: "Laura's podcast and newsletter are always thought provoking, filled with care and compassion, and a respite from one size fits all health and nutrition advice."So if that sounds good to you, then head to laurathomas.substack.com and become a paying subscriber today. Alright team, let's get to today's episode, here's Michael. MAIN EPISODE:All right, Michael, I need to know what the deal is. Because you're like one of maybe five PTs who isn't pushing aesthetic or weight loss goals on us.Has that always been your deal? Or is this more of an evolution for you? Michael: Yeah, it's definitely an evolution and it's funny you mentioned that because I get a lot of angry messages from personal trainers that don't think that my approach is right, which is always quite funny to me. I don't know, it's, I definitely, when I first started off in the fitness industry... I've been a personal trainer now for nearly 10 years.And in terms of personal training, that kind of makes you a bit of a veteran because a lot of trainers are quite short lived on average. When I first started off, I definitely did have your typical, like, mainstream slightly bro approach to fitness and nutrition. And I know most people that maybe work in the kind of space that, like, you operate in, for example, there tends to usually be a reason or a thing that caused them to go down that path.But I didn't have that at all. It really has just been a really slow evolution of just actually reading the research, working with people on a day to day basis, getting feedback from clients about what is working and what isn't, and then just really tweaking things over a very long period of time. I've also had some very honest clients, which have been great too, who kind of really follow my content on social media and they would message me like, oh, that's not very helpful. How about approaching it like this? And i'm always open to feedback, I always want to improve my practice and my messaging and I was always just quite receptive to that and I don't know... 10 years later I now finally feel like i'm working with people in a way that genuinely helps them long term and i'm actually creating content that is useful for people rather than just almost creating content for other personal trainers, which seems to be what a lot of fitness professionals do.Laura: Tell me about the angry messages. Why are other PTs up in your shit about...? Michael: I really don't know. I wish I knew the answer. I think... I guess if you're attacking someone's entire being and their work and their ethos that they've believed in for so many years, then I guess that a lot of people will react to that in quite a negative way.I really don't understand it at all either. Usually male coaches too, are very angry in the way that I approach social media and some of the names and things I've been called are pretty grim, but I only... I wish I knew the answer to that, but some, for some reason people get very angry in the way that I am approaching fitness and nutrition.But yeah, I really don't mind. Like I, as I said, I feel like I'm really helping people now and I'm happy to keep championing that message. Laura: I mean, I'm just wondering if part of it is because that myth, certain myth of no pain, no gain. And that you need to like, basically punish yourself with exercise in order to achieve a particular body type.You're saying, actually, we don't need to do that. It's okay if you don't kill yourself with exercise. We shouldn't be weaponising it against ourselves. For me, it speaks to how deeply internalised people's anti fat bias is. You're challenging the fundamental sort of premise that their beliefs are resting on, which is that, you can't be fit and fat.Or you...yeah, like I said before, that you have to punish yourself with exercise or like that... it's somehow okay to exist in a body that isn't fulfilling this ideal that we have been told that we should not strive for. Michael: Completely. And I mean, if we're completely honest about it, the way that the fitness industry is set up now is way more profitable for these people too.So if you do start attacking the way that they're approaching their lives or their businesses too, then they're probably going to be a little bit grumpy about that. It's so much easier for me as a personal trainer to make money saying, here we go, come sign up for the six week program and we'll strip body fat off you in such a short space of time, rather than me saying, cool, let's work together for three, six, 12 months. And let's really work on those habits and have you feeling and performing better. Like it's just such a hard sell. I mean, especially for, as I mentioned, like, personal training tends to be quite a short lived career for a lot of people. And I appreciate that when people first start off, the best way to get clients is shock and awe, like showing before and after photos, like having the secrets or whatever it is. And the best way to get clients at the start is by doing that. So people are going to follow that path rather than doing it the right way. That is a bit of a slow burner. I know that a lot of coaches aren't really up for that, sadly. Laura: Yeah, no, I think you make a really good point when you're talking about... the financial aspect of things, because, yeah, there's no money to be made in being like, yeah, take a rest day or go for a gentle walk and look at the sky. Yeah, those like making huge promises of around body transformations and then making people sign up for some sort of like intensive bootcamp situation. Of course, that makes sense from like a business model perspective, but as so often is the case, anything that involves capitalism is probably not great for our health overall. Okay, so I am absolutely not in the fitness space at all. I've purged my social media account. I think I follow you and maybe a couple of other personal trainers, because I find it really annoying, honestly, watching fitness content.Michael: I strongly relate to that. And first of all, thank you for following me, but yeah, I honestly, I feel exactly the same way. Laura: And I think, especially since having had a baby and because I have some enduring physical stuff going on as a result of my pregnancy in terms of, like, pelvic health, even the stuff that is like geared towards women who have had babies and like postpartum stuff.It's just anyway, so I've just checked out of it. So I have no idea. What is going on in that space, really? So I need you to like, translate it all for me. What are some of the most pervasive and toxic fitness myths that you're seeing at the moment? Michael: Everything. Honestly, every topic is so toxic at the moment.It's really frustrating. And I speak to... There's a few coaches that I'm really good friends with, who I think you probably know as well, that I tend to follow their content, I like engaging with them and talking about the fitness industry, but I have also removed myself from a lot of the mainstream approach because...I don't find it motivating or helpful in any way. Like I think a lot of the... Laura: You don't even hate follow some people just to have like stuff to...? Because I hate feed a lot of big feeding. I hate-feed?! I hate-follow a lot of big accounts. I just have this folder on my Instagram called Ammunition.And I just save posts in there that I want to come back and get angry about at some point. What are you seeing from... I know you do it! But what are you seeing from those folks? Michael: So I do a little bit of that. And I, so I've also, I've got an Instagram account for my dog, but I started up ages ago. I don't post anything to it, but every time I see something pop up on, like, the explore page or I see another trainer share, I'll send it to her account. And then I'll use that as fodder for, like, creating content and coming up with ideas. But I do not, I don't hate follow that many people now because like I spent a lot of time on social media, right?And I know that because of that following these accounts and seeing them on a day to day basis all of the time does massively negatively impact my mental health. And I think if i'm feeling that way as a fitness professional who knows the research, knows what these accounts are doing to us and can see through the nonsense... how are everyday people feeling? When they're seeing this content and they don't really know if it's the truth or not. So I actually don't follow that many trainers. There's probably a lot of trainers who... . Laura: So very evolved of you. Michael: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. There's a few trainers who, like, I know through just from working in gyms or whatever, I'll follow them, but I mute them so that I don't have to see their content.Laura: Yeah, that's smart. Michael: But yeah, I don't know. There's so many myths about every topic. Like you mentioned there about, like, women's health and pelvic health and anything pre and postnatal. The stuff around that is really gross because it's not even just the fact that they're spreading misinformation. They somehow always tie in with just losing weight, like this is pretty much what it all comes down to, right? Laura: Yeah. Yeah. That's the subtext. It's always there. Michael: It's always like improve your pelvic health and slim your waist, like it's everything. It just pushes people down the route of still obsessing about body weight and focusing on body weight rather than focusing on general health and wellbeing and health promotion, and it's infuriating.I guess the same as, like, building muscle. Like it's nearly always advertised by these guys that are absolutely jacked, clearly taking steroids, using images of themselves going... you can look like this if you work out like me and buy my programs and my nutrition plans, and you're just never going to look like these people. So you're always going to fail. Like everything within the fitness space is geared towards repeat sales and having people come back for more because the way that we're being sold health and fitness, just isn't sustainable or achievable in any way. And then people blame themselves and feel worse. And then therefore they're more likely to spend money on all these other programs repeatedly. And it's just a vicious cycle that just doesn't ever end. And that's why with my page, I'm trying to step away from any aesthetic goals. Like you'll probably see through my social media, I don't, I'm not against people having aesthetic goals. I just don't really ever talk about it because I don't think it should ever be the focus of someone's fitness journey. I mean, I think that's the bit that seems to piss people off. Laura: Yeah. And I mean, there's some interesting research that shows that people who exercise for aesthetic goals, they're less likely to engage in something that is sustainable for them.Like, it's more likely that they will give up. And I don't mean that in, like, defeatist kind of way, but it just won't be sustainable for them. Versus for people who are approaching, I don't know, a type of exercise or training or whatever it is from a place of maybe wanting to feel stronger or feel more comfortable in their bodies or because they have mobility stuff that they're working through or something like that.So it's really difficult though, because And we'll get to some of the listener questions in a bit where they're asking this, like, how do you uncouple the aesthetic goals from, those more internally motivated goals from the perspective that we are just constantly being drip fed, idealised images of people all over the internet? And then, like you say, half the time those images aren't even real, right? There's people on ‘roids. There are people who are like starving themselves, like making themselves dehydrated, like posing in particular ways. I don't even know what other tactics people use to stylise these images.But I feel like the sort of falsification of these pictures is huge in the fitness industry. Michael: It's honestly horrific. And I would probably go as far as to say, like, every professional fitness model has taken or is taking steroids of some form. That's like the level of manipulation that the fitness industry...I don't know, I don't think there's any issue with... having aesthetic goals. Like I always like to hammer this point home because I think sometimes with my content, I can... people misconstrue that I'm against anyone having any aesthetic goal at all. I'm not, it's just, I think that the emphasis needs to be elsewhere.For example, when I first started in the fitness industry, I was in that loop of must build muscle, have to build muscle to show that I know what I'm talking about and also to be seen as manly and capable or whatever, and I would do a lot of strength training. I would never do cardio because cardio is bad.It ruins your gains. Laura: It's for girls.Michael: Yeah, it's just exactly that. And it's so frustrating that I would... I spent years just, like, strength training, nothing but strength training, even when I was going through cycles of really hating it. Like I had to do strength training, got to build muscle. When I switched up my training... I still do strength training now. I enjoy building muscle. The challenge of building strength and muscle is really fun, but I also do a lot of cardio because I really enjoy it and it makes me feel great in terms of physical and mental health. And actually since switching up, dropping a bit of strength training that I was doing and doing more cardio, the exercise I really enjoy, I've made so much more progress with my strength building and muscle building gains.And I've just got such a better balance with it all. So if someone listening to this is really struggling of knowing like what they should really be doing, what should they be focusing on? Honestly, just like enjoyment and mental health, that needs to be the priority. And then everything else just tends to fall into line after that.And the fitness industry, just the tactics, as I said, like the trainers use. The one thing that really annoys me is a lot of personal trainers will, anyone who follows any trainers will... I've seen this in the past where a trainer goes through a really extreme cycle of dieting, exercise regime because they're training for a photo shoot - in quotation marks - Where they'll go and get professional photos done that they've dieted down to within an inch of their lives. And they'll get a little snapshot image of look how amazing I look and then they'll use that in all their advertising of promoting healthy behaviour change or whatever other nonsense. It's if you're not using healthy, sustainable habits in achieving your physique, then you should not be allowed to use that in terms of advertising it to say that you're going to help people improve their health and their life, their health and their lives.It's just, it's incredibly infuriating and... Laura: it's false advertising. Michael: Massively. Yeah. Massively. Laura: Need to get that fucking, is it ASA, advertising...? Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Standards Agency. Absolutely. Yeah. Laura: I'm on the case! But two interesting things that I wanted to pick out from what you were saying.First of all, I think there's some complexity and nuance around this idea aesthetic goals, isn't there? Because we are all aesthetically driven, right? We are all, like we're aesthetic creatures in some ways, like when you brush your hair in the morning or I don't know, you trim your beard, Michael, or like I chose clothes that I thought looked somewhat okay together. Like those are all aesthetic goals, right? And so I think it's really, like, hard for people to decouple aesthetic goals from their overall movement, exercise routines, whatever you want to call them. But I think what you're saying, and certainly what I would advocate is that the fitness industry has just blown... yeah, they've blown up aesthetics to be like the sole purpose that people should exercise, right? And that I think is the problem is that yeah, they've just coupled exercise and aesthetics to the point that it's like you were saying, people are engaging in disorderly eating behaviours. They're using illicit drugs, they are, like, punishing themselves to look a particular way, and that's when it becomes problematic, right? Michael: Completely agree. Laura: And you end up on that slippery, slippery slope to disordered eating and eating disorders. Michael: Yeah, it's so true the barometer of success or health or knowledge within the fitness industry is body fat levels. That's pretty much what it all comes down to. Like a trainer who is absolutely jacked and really ripped is seen as being an authority figure without really knowing anything about them. And whereas you'll have a trainer who's in maybe a naturally larger sized body who naturally carries a little bit more body fat, has a much healthier balance of exercise and nutrition, a far better trainer. Just look at the comments under the content that they push out there onto social media and people will criticize them and say they don't know what they're talking about. Like our barometer of success is leanness. I don't know what the answer is to trying to combat that other than just keep churning out content, calling out this nonsense.But unfortunately you feel like you take a few steps forward when it was like two, three years ago, when you see, started to see a lot more body diversity on fitness accounts and kind of big companies like Gymshark and Nike and stuff were using people in larger bodies to advertise clothing.That's now disappearing again because it's no longer.... and it's just toxic. And you just have to go on like TikTok, the latest platform, even though it's been around a few years, I felt like we were maybe making a bit of progress. Then TikTok just flips that again, and you just got to search the hashtag fitness on TikTok.And it's just white, slim, muscular people clearly taking steroids that are the main bulk of the content that you're going to see. It's infuriating. Laura: Everyone in the fitness industry really collectively needs to be speaking out against this, but I think there's a simultaneous thing that has to happen whereby we are amplifying and centering experiences and the work of fat fitness creators, right? And I'm using fat, for anyone who's not listened to the podcast before, fat as a neutral descriptor, as a reclamation of a word that is often used to weaponise and hurt people and harm people. So, yeah, I'm just thinking of some people off the top of my head.Like Intuitive Fatty, Jessamyn Stanley is fantastic for yoga content. Lauren Leavell does a lot of barre stuff, but there's loads. I mean, is there anyone that you would want to give a shout out to like anyone that's doing...? Michael: The Instagram handle Decolonizing Fitness? Ilya. The content is amazing. We're trying to set up a time for Ilya to come into our podcast to chat about this at the moment. And I just... there's so many voices that need to be amplified. And I know that I always have to check my privilege in the content that I'm creating. Like you see very few men within the kind of body neutrality, body positivity, space, whatever you want to call the area I'm working in.So I always like to acknowledge that, okay, I'm creating content for a space that isn't really for me, but I do think that can be really powerful. And we still need more voices of guys, especially within this space, calling it out because I rarely ever see male fitness professionals creating the kind of content that I am.They tend to go down the more mainstream approach. And I like to yes, fitness can look like me. I look how the fitness industry says you're supposed to look, but it doesn't have to look like that, right? This is one way it can look, but it doesn't need to be like that for everyone. And I think that can be really powerful whilst amplifying the voices of those who are marginalised and don't get the airtime that I do.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, you make a really good point about men in this space. Like just in body neutrality, body positivity and again, there are some really great people doing stuff in that space. I agree like it's still underrepresented, but like the 300 pound runner. I don't know if you've come across his stuff? Michael: yeah, Martinus Evans.Laura: Yeah, His stuff is really cool as well. But yeah, anyway, just wanted to shout out some accounts and I'll link to them in the show notes as well. Yeah, so you mentioned that fitness professionals will embark on this really extreme diet, they will really bulk up, they'll, probably restrict what they're eating for a really long time, and then they'll do all their photos, and they'll probably go back to whatever they were doing before that. And it just reminded me when... and this is it's like really sad, but do you remember when Joe Wicks was talking all about binging? He went to America, and then it ... he just started talking about like he was eating all this chocolate and pizza and like stuff that he obviously was restricting so hard that when he went to the States, he had this like backlash against all of that and his body was just like, fuck this, and he just started eating like all of the food that he'd been denying himself.It just made me think of that and how he's... how disordered like this space is and how normalised that kind of thing is like that just like binge restrict cycle. Michael: Yeah, I mean when your entire business model relies on getting people really lean. If you're not sticking to those rules and keeping your body lean 100 percent of the time, then your business model kind of goes to shit. And I guess that's probably why he was having issues coming to terms with that. Joe Wicks is a really funny one because I don't like his content at all. I'll throw that out there. Some of the nutrition stuff he's spouted has been... I was going to say nonsense, but it's actually just damaging some of the stuff he comes out with.Also, on the other hand, I feel like, maybe this is giving him too much credit, I always feel like his heart is in the right place, but he just goes about it in completely the wrong way. I don't know if you would agree with that. When I hear him being interviewed, I feel like he's a really passionate guy who feels like he's doing the right thing, but he's just absolutely not.Because all of his content is focused on being lean and weight loss. And I just wish that... he's got such a huge platform now. It's terrifying. That if you had someone like him who could start promoting like a balanced and sensible message, it's never going to happen because he makes too much money now, then it would just be so powerful.Laura: But I don't know, like this piece around heart in the right place. I think we say that about a lot of these actually quite problematic white men. Joe Wicks, Jamie Oliver, I'm just gonna say it, don't @ me. But, of course their heart's in the right place, but their heart's also in their fucking bank balance, right?Michael: Completely, 100%. Laura: So that's one part of it, but also, I don't know when we can, when someone is, like you say, promoting harmful messages around food and around nutrition. And I don't. I think it matters where their heart is. Michael: Agreed. I wonder whether this... Laura: A murderer could use that justification to be like, Oh, well, this man is really toxic to women, so I'm just going to kill him.But that's not the solution. Michael: I know. I wonder whether kind of in my head, the reason I use those words is because I think of kind of the fitness industry as like a huge, like a line of like how problematic someone is. And I feel like he feels he's trying to do the right thing despite doing it very badly.Whereas you have a lot of people within the fitness space that go far beyond that, who are intentionally doing the really bad thing, trying to make a lot of money, it's still very bad. And Jamie Oliver is one of those as well, where he's got such a huge platform, thinks he knows what he's doing is the best thing, but it's just not. Like trying to ban the buy one get one free offers when people are really struggling to feed their families right now.It's just, I feel yes, hearts in the right place, but just no, like they need to be more informed and go about it in a better way. Laura: And especially when they are being given this feedback, right? Like it's one thing if you fuck up and you say, I was really wrong about that and I've learned some new information now like you have, right? And like I have. And you hold your hands up and you say, yeah, I was really fucking wrong and I'm sorry that I've caused harm and I don't want to do that anymore. I'm gonna learn and I'm gonna do better. And Michael: that's the sign of a good practitioner, right? And yeah. Laura: But speaking of Joe Wicks... Michael: Oh god!Laura: So, so you are a new ish parent, right? You have a seven month old. Michael: Yes, my son is seven months old, yeah. Laura: How do you feel about the prospect of Joe Wicks teaching your kid PE someday? Michael: Oh, just no, like awful. Yeah it's terrifying, isn't it? And these people do wangle their way into every aspect of our society of fitness.And there's just no getting away from them now. Personally, I never watched any of his school fitness things throughout lockdown. I know they're very popular. What was his wording? Did you watch any of them then with your kids? Laura: I didn't cause my little one was just a newborn at that point. And he's only three now.It just wasn't on my radar. I've seen his books. He has the burpee bears. And I've written a couple of like book reviews. They're super like, just tongue in cheek. But it strikes me as really problematic that he feels that we need to teach specific moves like burpees or other things like that to children, like to young children, like primary school age kids, and I don't really have a good justification for that because I'm not a fitness professional that other than does a five year old need to learn how to plank? Right? Or should we not be focusing on embodied movement that is climbing on play equipment in the playground or running or skipping or jumping or like, all of these things that kids, depending on their level of mobility and ability that they would intuitively do?Michael: I am completely with you there. I don't think we need to be teaching a five year old how to do a burpee. It's a bit ridiculous, to be honest. Yeah, that's the way that movement should be promoted and advertised to kids, if you want to use those kind of technical terms. It should just be about play and fun and movement, and that's... what it should be. Like if a kid sees their parent doing burpees or lifting weights and they want to try a bit out and get involved yeah, absolutely. But it just, it shouldn't be the go to, right? Yeah, absolutely. Laura: Yeah. My kid has seen me do a downward dog and he like gets involved and we do the cosmic kids yoga. I feel like that's a slightly different thing because it's a, it's so gentle and b it's animal poses. I don't know. All right. So I got sent through loads of questions from listeners and I thought they were really fun. So I just thought we could go through them. I think we've touched on a bit of it already, but maybe you can just give me your quick fire answers.Michael: Sure. Yeah. Laura: So this is an interesting question that Gwen from Dieticians for Teachers sent in. She said she would like to know more about the messages in your formal training. I think we can take a good guess, but I guess what she's getting at is, like, what toxic messages were in your formal training?Michael: Unfortunately, when you're learning to become a personal trainer still so much of it is about weight loss, still. You'll get taught, right, this is what we're going to learn about nutrition and this is how you help someone lose weight. So that is still at the core. And I guess a lot of the training for personal trainers, in terms of nutrition anyway, It's still very like basic government guidelines, which you can take those as you will. Some recommendations are maybe okay, others not that helpful. The training for nutrition for personal trainers is so, so, so, so basic that I would encourage any personal trainer who has recently qualified and not done any further nutrition study from there to please sign up to another course and learn more because what you learn as a personal trainer at the basic level is just nowhere near good enough to work with clients in depth.Laura: I have a lot of thoughts about personal trainers and nutrition, but I'm going to keep them to myself! Michael: No, no feel free to talk about it! It terrifies me. And it's very rare now that... a lot of the people I work with have had personal trainers in the past. The large majority of them have had negative experiences, and it's quite scary that's now just the norm.And I'll ask questions of my clients in consultations whilst working together and they'll be like, Oh, I've never been asked that before. I've never even considered that. And it just blows my mind that these things are being missed out or neglected by coaches. But the training is just not there. Laura: It's so interesting that the focus, I mean, it's not surprising, but that the focus is still on body size and not like flexibility or mobility or like rehab or like any of these, which I'm sure they like get touched on, but it sounds like from what you're saying that the real central focus is not mental health or like overall wellbeing. It's here's how you try and get people shredded, which we know is like biogenetically, if not difficult, if not impossible for most people. Michael: Pretty much. Yeah. Like I'm sure... I don't want to call out every personal training course. Like I did qualify a few years ago now, but I know there's some personal training qualifications that are trying to shift that, but it is still a large majority.And that is why a lot of the coaches coming through now, it's still very much before and after photos, weight centric. Yeah, unfortunately. Laura: Well, it's good to know that maybe there are some shifts coming down the pipe a little bit and I guess it just goes to show why again, you need to keep, like, pushing these alternative messages.Okay. This I thought was a really interesting question. And so this person asked, is exercise truly necessary? I don't enjoy exercising, but I do move a lot during the day, running errands and running after a toddler, all while baby wearing a newborn. And then the follow up question is, and if it is necessary to exercise intentionally, what form of exercise is best for someone who wouldn't otherwise prioritise it? Michael: That's such a good question. And it's very nuanced as well, depending on the person's situation. I would say, I mean, no, it's not necessary if you're moving around a lot throughout the day. However, so many health benefits come from incorporating some form of like direct exercise that it would be really sad to not explore all the potential areas that people could incorporate exercise into their life that maybe might not be the mainstream approach, right? If you are someone who moves around a lot throughout your day, if you say running errands and your general movement and step count is actually really high, then you could argue that as long as you get your nutrition, right, you're doing pretty well.However, strength training. Every time someone comes to me, no matter what their fitness goals are, I try and incorporate some form of strength training that I can, but that can take so many different forms. Laura: This person is carrying a baby around! Michael: Right. Yeah, exactly. Which is strength training, right?Exactly. So it's... when I say strength training, a lot of people listening to this episode right now will automatically... they'll think, like, gym, barbells, dumbbells, heavy weights, and it can come in so many different forms and it can be with resistance bands, body weight, dumbbells, kettlebells, barbells at home. It can be like TRX, it can be like so many different ways that you might enjoy at some point. So don't just think, Oh, I'm not an exercise-y person. I've always hated it because there are so many different ways that we can incorporate exercise. That is a very vague answer. without me knowing much more about this person. However, if you can find a form of exercise you enjoy, that should be a priority because the health benefits are huge. Laura: I'm going to push back because this is my opinion, not necessarily based on scientific fact, but it does feel as though there is this tendency, and I'm also conscious of your bias as a fitness professional, that exercise is held up as the pinnacle of health.And it's like the one thing that we need to do in order to be healthy. And I'm not disputing that there are health benefits. I also am like curious about the magnitude of those benefits within the broader context of health and health behaviours, but also nesting that within sort of social determinants of health and like, how do we measure the effect size of exercise individually from, I don't know, sleep, other elements of mental health, community? I guess what I'm maybe trying to temper is like that there are so many, like, variables and factors that contribute to someone's overall picture of health and I appreciate that movement can be an important facet of that.Michael: Yeah, no I really like that point because it is so important and I think that's why it's important to approach exercise and hence why I said without knowing more about this person, it's hard to give an exact answer. I think it's important to look at all of those things in terms of context when you're trying to prescribe or recommend exercise to someone, right?Let's say that this person is, they're likely lacking in sleep right now at the moment, right? Because their life is very busy running around after small humans. If that person is exhausted and they have no free time at all. I'm not then going to say, right, you've got to go and exercise 30 minutes a day for three times a week, because it's just not going to be helpful. There's other areas of your lifestyle that we can focus on to improve your health. However, if there is a bit of wiggle room, if you have a bit of time, then maybe there are things that we could explore that you could quite comfortably fit into your day without it taking over your life like a lot of the fitness industry wants us to do. Laura: Yeah. I think that the, maybe the TL;DR there is you don't have to sweat it when you are running around after a small child and doing other, all these other things. But if it feels like it's something that you want to explore, and you're curious to give something a try, then yeah, you could have a think about some gentle movement or something, see how that feels and how that fits in the context of your life But yeah, it's tricky to prescribe something without knowing, yeah knowing someone's life and what they want to get out of it. Michael: So true and you're never gonna know if it was directly the exercise. It could be so many other things that then, yeah, that then causes the health benefit.I would just say, once again, like anecdotally, rather than looking at research, every person that I've worked with that we've tried to think, right, how can we incorporate exercising today in some format? The large majority of the time, everything else feels better and improves as a result.Laura: Yeah, no , it can, it has a knock on effect on like sleep and pain and like all these other things. So, okay. How can I move my body without shame and guilt driving it? These are two separate questions, but I'm just lumping them together, and then this, another person asked, how to find the joy in movement after a life forcing it?Michael: I think first of all, it's really important to, like, vet where you're getting all of your inspiration and information from is a really important one because a lot of the time, if we're following the kind of general societal recommendations when it comes to exercise and nutrition. It's always going to have quite a prescriptive image focused approach to movement.And if you can shift away, like what we spoke about at the start of this, you don't follow many personal trainers because you don't think that they're motivating or helpful to you. They actually just make you feel worse. I'm the same. When I constantly see gym bros. telling me that I have to lift weights X amount of times a week, and I've got to get shredded and have low body fat levels, it has the complete opposite impact on me. So if you can first of all vet where you're getting your information from, that is absolutely huge. And then, yeah, I guess also once again, it's not beating yourself up for having the more mainstream thoughts that you used to have. I know a lot of people when they're trying to shift into kind of taking a more intuitive eating approach or a more intuitive eating approach with like exercise too, as well as nutrition, we can sometimes feel really guilty when we start slipping back into older habits that maybe are slightly disordered.I'm just... like giving yourself a bit of leeway and a bit of space to grow and learn. I'm still doing that. I still probably get things wrong and have room for improvement, but I think by doing that, removing the pressure on yourself can be really helpful. Laura: Yeah. Two things that I might add to that are something that I've explored with clients as part of working on the relationship with food and body and movement often comes up as part of that, we might explore this idea of, what it feels like in your body where you've had a period where you haven't moved at all, right? Maybe it's because you're recovering from an injury or because you just were so burnt out with exercise that you just really didn't move. How did that feel in your body? Did you get any pain or did it feel nice to rest or what was that experience? And then also thinking about periods of your life where maybe you've been really deeply invested in fitness culture. And maybe doing the punishing exercises, maybe also getting injuries because of that, maybe getting ill a lot of the time, maybe losing your period, like all kinds of different things, like different experiences that you could have in your bodies.If you've got that framing of this is what no exercise feels like in my body, and this is what too much feels like in my body, then it can help you explore what some sort of happy balance might feel like. So that's something that I encourage people to think about. And I also just wanted to shout out Tally Rye's Intuitive Movement Journal.It's her book Intuitive Movement as well. It is isn't it? Clients have found that those are helpful resources for navigating stepping back from exercise and just exploring what rest feels like through kind of the framework of, or a similar framework to intuitive being. So if intuitive being resonates with you, then maybe Tally's work will as well. So I'll link to them in the show notes. All right, this will be our last question. And it is: I cut out all deliberate movement for a while, by which I mean, I walk to get places and that's it. I'd like to try some movement. and see how it makes me feel. But where on earth do I even start? Michael: Okay, once again, without a lot of context, this is very hard to give specific advice.So I would say think about where you would feel most comfortable exercising and start from there. So I know that for a lot of people, the gym environment can be incredibly intense and intimidating for many reasons. So if you think that maybe that feels a bit much and it's going to put you off. Let's write that off. Don't do that. So let's think, okay, maybe we could start some movement at home. Is there a form of exercise that you really enjoy? Do you like dancing? Do you like jump rope? Do you like bodyweight workouts? What is it that kind of you think, Oh, actually that sounds quite fun to me and start there.And then let's say that there's so many decent content creators online, depending on what you like that I could recommend. Feel free to reach out and just start from that point. If you're thinking that kind of back to my earlier point that, okay, strength training doesn't have to look like that in the gym. What can it look like? A set of basic resistance bands from Amazon for 10 quid, you've got a gym at home. Like you don't have to go to a gym. There's so many different ways that it could look start from that start from what gives you that, Oh, that's interesting. I might give it a try, and start really, really small and build from there and that's probably the best place to start. Laura: If someone hasn't done much movement other than, like, incidental daily movements for a while... there's obviously a lot of privilege in this question but I'm wondering if you would recommend like doing a couple of one on one sessions with a trainer, like a safe trainer that could help build up strength or make like a bespoke kind of program for someone or just help them with their form so that they... I'm maybe thinking of myself here, but I know that I have to be really careful what I do at home because I'm more likely to end up injuring myself just because of my like, specific needs and in terms of managing pain. And so what I've ended up doing... and again shitload of privilege in this but, I'm, after three years of pelvic girdle pain, I'm like, at my limit. So I've started seeing a physio one on one who does clinical Pilates. So it's like very much helping me build my strength, which I could do... like I was going to a barre class before that, but I was walking away with more pain, even though it was supposedly like a supervised class, like there were no adjustments. There were no like modifications for my body, like nothing. So I personally, I have found that trying to build my strength and reduce pain, like finding someone who's really specialised has been a game changer for me. Michael: Yeah, I would say... I was gonna say one of the benefits of COVID. That's not what I meant. I was gonna say for the benefits of kind of the lockdown that happened as a result of COVID is the fitness industry got pushed forward by about five to ten years in terms of the way that it can support people, especially on a tighter budget as well. There are now so many... Laura: oh, you mean like online?Michael: Online support, right? Because I know that personal training is an investment for a lot of people. It's not a cheap route to go down. If you can afford it, absolutely, yes. If you can have the support of a professional who's got years of experience, it does speed things up and it makes things a lot more kind of personalised and perhaps more enjoyable.However, the way that the online fitness space works now, it has improved massively. And for, kind of, much cheaper options, monthly options, you can get the support of a trainer online that will be able to do a video call with you to check your form. You can send them videos. Like I speak to people that follow me on Instagram all the time and they'll ask me a question. I'll say, just send me a video of you doing the exercise. I'm happy to give you some pointers. If you find people online that are truly passionate and care. If you send them a video of you doing an exercise, they'll happily help you out. So there are so many different routes that you can go down to get the support that don't cost a huge amount of money.Once again, even the cheaper forms are still an investment, but there are different routes that you can go down now. Yeah, absolutely. Laura: Yeah. Okay. I appreciate that. And then just to add to that, like I've done some sessions with this, like a one on one physio. And now I'm going to, like the group classes as well.So it's, I think, helpful to just... if you have any kind of rehab that needs to be done, or if you just want to feel more confident in the movements. Cause like Pilates can be tricky if you don't know exactly what you're doing to just be thrown into a class situation. So it's helped me at least like doing a few sessions, even though I've done Pilates before, but just having that refresher to then go into a class setting, it's just helped build up my confidence a little bit. And it's also, I'm not going to like this, like a gym. Sorry, I said that with so much disdain, realizing you're a personal trainer! Michael: Ugh, these disgusting personal trainers!Laura: It had, like, a visceral effect. Michael: It's so funny though, isn't it? That it's so sad that's what the fitness industry has become. And especially as a trainer who is one, every time I meet someone and they'll ask oh, what do you do? I have to like preface, Oh, like I'm not like the rest of them, but I'm a personal trainer, like it's really sad.Laura: I do the same thing, but with nutrition, I'm like, I'm a nutritionist, but I'm not that kind of nutritionist. Michael: I'm not going to sell you a cleanse, I promise! Laura: All right, Michael, this has been so fun to have you on and just shoot the shit about fitness culture. But at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been snacking on. So it can be a book, a podcast, a TV show. Yeah, just about anything that, that you feel like. So what are you snacking on at the moment? Michael: So one podcast I'm listening to, this is going to be a bit of a curve ball, there's probably quite a few people, especially in the UK listening to it... I don't like politics because in this country, it's so gross the way that politics is at the moment, but I like being well informed in what's going in politics because it has such a huge knock on impact to like societal changes.Laura: I was really glad that you said that, because when you said I don't like politics, I was like, argh where is this going! Michael: no, I do, but I get so infuriated by it because it's so important and I feel like coaches need to be informed because it does directly impact everything we're doing with our clients in terms of like socioeconomic impacts and food access and education and stuff, so I've been listening to The Rest Is Politics podcast. I don't know if you've ever listened to it. It's actually really good. It's Alastair Campbell, Rory Stewart, Labour side, Tory side. They chat about all daily topics and I quite like that they disagree and argue. I, depending on what you think about those two individuals, I'm still very mixed on what I think of them.However, I think it's very good to have a nice balanced approach there. So that's the podcast I've been listening to a lot recently. I really like it. In terms of food. So I can't eat eggs and dairy. I'm lactose intolerant and intolerant to eggs as well. Laura: I think you were probably going to wait for like the bummer, yeah, for me to be like, oh, that's such a bummer. But I'm vegan, so I don't eat any of that stuff . Michael: Yeah, I know. I was saying, I'm like the worst gym bro ever. I can't have whey protein shakes and I can't eat like 12 eggs a day. So maybe that's another reason they all hate me. So I found a vegan chocolate bar from Aldi. I don't know if you've ever had it. I don't think so. What? So they do milk, in quotation marks, milk chocolate and a white chocolate. They do a dark chocolate too, but a lot of vegan chocolate is dark. Anyway, so I haven't even tried that but their milk chocolate and their white chocolate is so good .And i'm getting through far too much of this chocolate at the moment but I finally found a chocolate bar that tastes amazing. They're by far the best chocolate you can get that's vegan, hands down Laura: That sounds really good, but we don't have an Aldi near us. We have a Lidl. Michael: So it's worth commuting. Laura: Oh, is it? Michael: Yeah. Yes. Laura: Okay. Might have to go to the dark depths of Dalston too.Okay. So I'm actually going to do a podcast also, and it's Getting Curious with Jonathan van Ness, which everyone knows who JVN is, obviously. He's amazing. Yeah, love them. There was like a bit of a thing a while ago where on their Netflix show they talked about like food addiction and it was just really problematic and icky and fatphobic. But JVN seems to have really been on a bit of a journey with this stuff and the latest, well, at the time that we are recording, they've just come out with a podcast called... well, an episode of their podcast Getting Curious called What's the Cultural History of the Calorie? With Dr. Athia Chaudhry. They're a fat activist and it's immersed in like fat politics. So, yeah. I would recommend going and giving that one a listen, because yeah, JVN has been on a journey, it seems. Michael: That sounds awesome. And that is my afternoon listening. Thank you very much. Laura: I will link to all of those things in the show notes.Michael, before I let you go, can you tell everyone where they can find out more about you and your work? Michael: Of course, so, most of the content I create is through Instagram, so it's just my name, which is very hard to spell, so probably best if you check it in the show notes. Laura: Yeah, I will link to everything.Michael: Thank you very much. So it's @MichaelUlloaPT, and that's on Instagram, Threads, Twitter, TikTok, whatever platform, it's all the same. Laura: All right, Michael, I will make sure that... It's all fully linked in the show notes so that everyone can find you. Thank you so much for coming on and yeah, like I said before, shooting the shit with us about fitness culture was really fun.Michael: Thank you so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening.ICYMI this week: "I'm Not Your Target Audience" - How Do We Get Men To Care?* Reclaiming our Appetites* MORE Teens, TikTok, and some Good News for a Change.* Dear Laura: I'm freaking out about what my kids eat - but is it really about them? This is a public episode. 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Today I'm speaking to Sarah Sproule (she/them), a sex educator, an occupational therapist, as well as a mother of three teens. Sarah uses their skills to ensure that every parent and caring adult knows how to build a deeper connection with their growing kids, and believes that no child should ever feel alone and unable to reach out for help with their body, their boundaries, or their needs. Or their knowledge about sexuality.In this episode, we are talking about ‘sensitive things' with our kids, plus reclaiming the ‘C word'. We dive into the following topics;* The ‘invisible influence of normal'* Showing kids we're a trusted person to talk to about sensitive things* Why we don't want to wait until sex ed classes to start talking about sex* Teaching kids about body boundaries* Answering your Qs about: * How to explain to kids why you do some things in private?* 4 year olds asking BIG questions you're not sure they're ready for* 3 year olds who are resistant to challenging gender stereotypes* How to support your child when someone is asking invasive questions* Plus Sarah shares the unknown history of the C word!Find out more about Sarah's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:Sarah Sproule: I drew analogies between talking about sensitive things and other parts of parenting. So, I don't know a single other parent who waited for their child to ask them for a stem of broccoli before they gave it to them. Right? And we know that broccoli's really great. I don't know a parent who waited for their child to ask them, Can you please show me how to cross the road? Because I want to stay safe. Like, there are so many things we do, we take initiative for, because we know it's important for the health and safety and joy of our child. INTROLaura Thomas: Welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we are talking about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today, I'm talking to Sarah Sproule. Sarah, who uses she/them pronouns, is a sex educator, an occupational therapist, as well as a mother of three teens.Sarah uses their skills to ensure that every parent and caring adult knows how to build a deeper connection with their growing kids. She believes that no child should ever feel alone and unable to reach out for help with their body, their boundaries, or their needs. Or their knowledge about sexuality.In this conversation, we talk about what Sarah calls the ‘invisible influence of normal'; all the things, spoken and unspoken, that shape how we think about bodies, sex, pleasure, periods, and more. And we talk about why it's important to approach these conversations with our kids early and in a non-judgmental way that prioritises connection and helps inoculate them against body shame.We talk about supporting kids to trust their body boundaries and how that can help them use their voice when something doesn't feel right. Plus we answer your questions like how to teach kids that maybe it's best not to touch their penis at the dinner table, without inadvertently shrouding them in shame.Obviously this is a conversation about sensitive topics to do with sex, and at one point we do mention rape and other forms of violence. We also use the C word quite liberally towards the end, which Sarah and I are comfortable with, but we understand that it may not be for everyone. So all of that is to say, listen at your discretion and take care of yourself. I will say, though, that Sarah is extremely compassionate and thoughtful in how she approaches these topics. So I hope you'll find this to be a safe and nourishing conversation. Just before we get to Sarah, I wanted to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter and community and whole wider universe.So until the end of September, I'm running a 15% off sale on the cost of annual memberships. So instead of paying £50 a year, you would pay £42.50 and that gets you access to the monthly Dear Laura columns where I answer your questions. It gets you access to the whole CIHAS archive, it gives you commenting privileges, plus weekly discussion threads tackling the big issues like…how clean is your fridge? And who are you dressing for on the school run? It's a really welcoming space where we learn from each other, share with folks who have a similar world view to us, and we have a lot of fun. And of course it's a completely diet, body shame-free space. I wanted to quickly share what one CIHAS reader said recently. They shared this review saying: “Laura's Substack is a lifeline in a world where diet culture and fatphobia is pervasive in all aspects of our lives including how we feed our children. Every time I start to worry about my toddlers eating and that internalised diet culture mentality starts bubbling up, it's Laura's voice telling me that it's all going to be okay. Through her invaluable work on CIHAS, she's genuinely keeping me sane and empowering me to navigate feeding my child and making the right decisions for my family. The paid subscription is more than worth it. Thanks, Laura.” Well, thank you for that really sweet review. And like I said, we're running a sale for the rest of September and you can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com and I'll drop the link in the show notes so you can find it really easily. And by becoming a paid subscriber, not only do you get the sweet perks that I mentioned earlier, but more importantly, your contributions help make this work sustainable. All right, team, let's get to today's guest. Here's Sarah. MAIN EPISODEHey, Sarah, can you start by telling us a little bit about you and the work that you do, please? Sarah: I support parents and other adults who are raising children to speak about sensitive things. So that's a euphemism for puberty, genitals, babies, growing up, sex, relationships, all that sort of stuff that might seem a little bit like…eeeeh!...when you think about having conversations about that with kids.And that work is important to me. I'm an occupational therapist, but I do that work because I was one of the kids that would have really benefited from way more open and sort of practical conversations about all that sort of stuff. My mum and dad were missionaries and we grew up in Nigeria for most of my teens, but yeah, even though mum was a nurse and she would have told me how my brother was born and all the bits and bobs and… Laura: Yeah, the gory details.Sarah: Yeah. I think because I had undiagnosed ADHD particularly, it meant that if things weren't repeated and part of everyday life, I just forgot. So I got to be nine years old and I thought sperm flew through the air to get to the egg. So I didn't want the children that I was raising to have that same experience.And so here we are now, Masters in Sexuality Studies. I've been doing this now for a few years, and it just feels like the more I do it, the more I realised that this is the exact sort of work that…all my experiences growing up and being a neurodiverse person…it's all set me up for this. So that's a great sense of joy to feel so aligned with work and with who I am as a person.Laura: For sure. And thank you for sort of walking us through that transition from OT to sexuality studies to what you're doing now. And I think it's so interesting that your background is in OT because – and that's occupational therapy for anyone who isn't familiar with that acronym – because it really shines through in the work that you do.And I think that's the only other allied health professionals, I think, would see that, but definitely you can see the echoes of that. And I think it's such a great foundation for the more coaching-centered work that you're doing. So you sort of alluded to this in what you were saying there, but you talk a lot about this concept of the ‘invisible influence of normal'. Can you unpack that a bit more for us and tell us what that is? Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So wherever we live, in whatever sort of country or city or family, there are influences on us from those cultures, whether it's family culture, city culture, farm culture, Irish culture, Australian culture, whatever. Those influences or those…the messages we're given subtly show us what normal is.So normal could be being married with children, for example, and not that anyone might have ever said that to us, what's normal is to get married and have kids, but maybe it's an assumption in the way people ask young children or growing people questions about what they want to do in the future, how many kids they want. Like if someone asked someone how many kids you want, there's an invisible assumption there that they want children. So this invisible influence of normal impacts us, not just when we're growing up, but it impacts adults who are raising children as well, because if we lived in a family that didn't use penis and vulva or clitoris as words for genitals with children, then we're going to grow up into adults who…the invisible influence of normal will have said, sort of shaped, you don't use those words with kids. And that's just normal. That's what sort of we grew up to expect. And that's just one example. There are lots of other ways like what is normal just gets sort of embedded into our consciousness, maybe without even our own awareness. So a lot of the times this “normal idea of normal” – and I'm using my fingers in air quotes – we might not realise that it's impacting how we speak to the small people in our life until we have a particular experience. Like it could be something like having a conversation with another parent at the school gate or in childcare, where they speak about, say, walking around nude in their home and all of a sudden you realise, what? Some people think it's normal or okay to walk around nude in front of their kids at home. What? And all of a sudden everything sort of shakes a bit, you know, in our world view. Laura: What I'm hearing you say is that this invisible influence of normal, it shapes our ideas of what is acceptable, what is taboo.And ultimately, I think it shapes whether we have a shame response to something, or whether we can talk openly and transparently about, you know, like you say, sensitive subjects without them becoming, yeah, something that we have to hide or feel shame about. Is that a fair way of kind of putting it? , Sarah: Yeah, that's a beautiful way of saying it.So this story came into my mind and I wanted to share it. So picture me 13 years ago. And I have like a five year old, a three year old and a one year old and it's Saturday. So if any of the people listening are anything like us…Saturdays, we're like, we're just trying to eke out every single minute of sleep, or at least being horizontal in the bed that we can manage, you know, and so our three kids playing around the room, the doors locked so that they can't get into trouble. And you can hear this sort of splashing in the bathroom and I get out of bed and I go in and have a look. There's a five year old has taken some condoms out of the bedside drawer – because condoms were our contraceptive method of choice at the time. And opened up the packet, given one to her brother, one for herself, and they've got them in the basin, they're trying to fill them up like water balloons. And I'm at the door and I'm looking in the door and, like, my breath catches in my throat….cause, like, your kids are touching something that is related to penises. Laura: Oh it's so dirty! Sarah: So it's sort of like, this is the first time I ever thought of anything related to this work, right? And I call out to my partner. I go, John, the, the kids are playing with condoms…and this is my really traditional Irish Catholic husband sort of says, Yeah, so what? I'm like, they're condoms! And he goes, So? And it was in that moment that I was like, Oh, hang on a minute. So for me, that was a moment when that invisible influence became visible. It was like, yeah, if he thinks this and I don't think that, what's going on here, what's…what's happening? And so it was a really clear moment in time for me.I was like. Oh, there are things at play here. There's, there is influences at play here that I didn't even realise. Um, and I think it was particularly clear because in my mind, John was sort of very traditional and I was like the uber progressive Australian parent living in Ireland. So it was quite a shock.And that's where this whole process for me of really looking and seeing what I thought was right that was unexamined and how that was really leading me down the same path to treat my kids the same way that I was treated, which was…yes, we can answer questions, but at the end of the day, sex and things related to adults, like life, children had to be protected against because it is in some way dangerous and sort of wrong. And of course there are lots of things about adult sexuality that, yes, are not appropriate for children, but there are a whole stinking lot of things that families can talk about in a way that is educational and supportive and kind and open and connecting. And when we don't allow ourselves access to those topics of conversation, we're losing the chance, not just to inform our children. That, to me, in my work is a secondary thing. The information exchange, that's a secondary thing. What's more important is that we are creating moments over and over again, where we prove and show ourselves to be someone, an adult, a trusted adult, who can talk about pretty much anything and everything. And we do that with understanding and we do it in a way that is respectful of our children and their ability to understand stuff. When that shift happens in an adult's mind that they realise that talking about sensitive things is a bridge over which they build a connection with their child and which will last a lifetime because it will last a lifetime, then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, okay. So this might be awkward and I might not know how to do it, but God damn it. I really want to try because I understand what is possible if I make this effort. Laura: Yeah, and again, what I'm hearing you say is that you're prioritising the relationship that you have with your child over and above your own comfort and probably other people's comfort, people around you, maybe grandparents, maybe other parents at the school, teachers even, that your, your child might come into contact with. And that kind of leads me to a question that I, I was thinking about for you, which was around why it is so important for us, as parents, as carers, as guardians, to be the people that are starting these conversations with our children, these, like you say, sensitive conversations, and that could, I think, range from calling genitals by their correct names all the way through to puberty and periods.Why does it feel so important for it to be coming from us rather than, you know, waiting until Sex Ed at school or waiting until they hear something in the playground? Sarah: Again, it's about creating connection. I think about it from the perspective of how many years an adult, either a parent or a caregiver in some other capacity, is with their child or their young person, right?So I will often say that, okay, so If our kids stay with us until they're 23, just pick a number. You've got 23 years of meals and negotiations about bathroom time and conversations about going out with friends and all that, where your child has the opportunity to come to tell you something that's difficult or worrying for them or where they can ask you a question that is going to make the difference between them being able to speak up for themselves in a tricky situation or not. So your child is around you lots and lots and lots. Whereas if they first hear something sensitive, like how babies are made or what sex actually is from a teacher at school, that teacher may only be there for, say, 10 months of their life and then they're gone. And so when your child is thinking about the memories of how they learned particular things, a teacher's face will come up, but your face won't. And what that means is when they have a question or a concern or something tough is happening in their world, there's not that sort of memory that connects you and sensitive, awkward, unpleasant, difficult, concerning, but also exciting life events in the head, right? So it's very much about, again, how can we build that connection? How can we demonstrate to a child or a young person that we talk about this stuff. I drew analogies between talking about sensitive things and other parts of parenting. So I don't know a single other parent who waited for their child to ask them for a stem of broccoli before they gave it to them. And we know that broccoli is really great. I don't know a parent who waited for their child to ask them, can you please show me how to cross the road, because I want to stay safe. Like, there are so many things we do that we take initiative for because we know it's important for the health and safety and joy of our child.And this area of being human, this developing sexual self is no different when you sort of look at it like that. Most of the time people go, oh yeah, I see what you're saying there, I wouldn't wait for my child to ask me to send them to swimming lessons. I mean, some of us might've done that before our child was even one. So it's far more about realising that our parenting approach, if it's different, only in the sensitive conversation section, then that's showing us that there's something behind that, that needs to be examined so that we can show up for our child in the best way. Laura: If you think about it from the perspective of, you know, like a, I don't know, a seven year old saying to another seven year old in the playground, oh duh duh duh, sex, penis, vulva, and that's complete news to your seven year old. I can imagine that that would be attached to, again, shame, embarrassment, of not knowing that information or that completely, like, coming out of the blue, versus if you've already maybe laid some foundations and some groundwork, then your child might have the language to be like…Or maybe they don't have necessarily, like, they can't explain all the ins and outs of it, but they can be like, oh, yeah, that's something I've heard of, and maybe I can go home to this trusted person and get some more details or ask some more questions. I suppose that's the kind of, I would imagine, you know, the ideal way that that scenario plays out rather than a child who just feels so overcome by shame and embarrassment that they don't have anywhere to go with that information.Sarah: Absolutely. And I mean, that scenario that you've pictured, that's probably actually best case scenario for a child that doesn't know anything. A more problematic scenario might be where a child tells another child something that's just completely and utterly wrong. Like one of my kids came home from school, I think they were probably 10, and he came home and he said, mum, Michael at school told us that rape means having sex with someone and then killing them.And I was like, Oh, that's not right, is it? Because we'd had those conversations. So it's not just about setting your child up to not be surprised by things, but actually if you've got there first with the accurate information, inaccurate stuff tends to like, they don't grab onto it and go, Oh, okay.Because…you know, think about that. It's quite damaging for a child or a young person to think that rape is having sex with someone and then killing them because then they don't understand what rape really is, you know, and so there's all sorts of complexity and difficulty that sort of arise from that.And, and I imagine that any…well, I would hope that any young person would go through the education system and very quickly get the correct definition given to them at some point in the curriculum, but nevertheless. It's not a great introduction if they're getting inaccurate information from a peer.Laura: Yeah, because you're completely missing the whole, you know, really important opportunity to talk about consent.And so speaking of consent, I wanted to – and maybe this will help us take some of these more abstract concepts and put them into more concrete terms, but something that I've noticed since becoming a parent is how entitled people feel to kids' bodies, you know, whether it's hugs or kisses or touching them in some way.Like, I was with my three year old the other day and someone from their pre-school, a teacher, ran up behind them and picked them up and scooped them up, and it scared the shit out of me, never mind my three year old. And of course it was coming from a well intentioned, loving place, because I know that they have a good relationship, but it feels like such a tricky one to navigate as a parent.And I have a lot of thoughts about this. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how we begin to teach kids about their body boundaries and what is okay and not okay in terms of people accessing their bodies and, and talking about who they share their bodies with and in what capacity. Sarah: The best way to learn things is through experience.So we could spend, you know, all day, every day saying to our child, you know, your body, your choice, you get to decide what's done to your body. But if we don't create an environment at home where that is lived rather than just spoken, then that makes it difficult. So children who – and I was one of these kids, actually – children who their voices aren't heard, we – I'm going to say, we – we grow up, we lose sense of what our truth is, right? So here's something that I've been thinking about lately. One of the adults in my community asked a question about school refusal. In my world, it's ‘school can't' or ‘school avoidance'. If a child is…said we just have to go to school anyway. You just have to go. That's what we do. We have to go. The message there is it doesn't matter how you feel. There are some things that just have to be done because it's always been done like that, right? You can imagine that if that model is placed on a relationship and our child grows up to be a young adult and is in a relationship with someone who is very clear on the way things should be. So for example, I had a relationship for a time with a person and, in the process of negotiating our physical intimacy, I remember an interaction where I said, we'll need some lube. And this person says, Oh no, we don't need lube. And, now, it was a big deal for me to even say we need lube, but the other person being so clear, like we don't need it. I just completely, like, shut down. That was it. Okay, well then that must be true because what the other person is saying, which is opposite to me must be true because that was something that was demonstrated over and over and over again in my growing up. And I'm bringing up school refusal because it's so…it's really difficult. It presses a lot of buttons in an adult, you know, a child who doesn't want to go to school. That's probably one of the more complicated places where respecting our child's voice and their deep inner knowing of what is right for them is going to be hard, whereas maybe a little bit easier in, if it was, do you want to go to the beach or do you want to, you know, go over to Jimmy's house and jump on his trampoline. Like it won't matter so much what our child says, if they say jump on the trampoline and we would have preferred to go to the beach, we're like, oh, we'll go and jump on the trampoline. But, so there's sort of like a, you know, like a continuum of the places in raising children where it's easier to respect who they are and their interests and what they want, versus the ones that are more difficult. And oftentimes the ones that are more difficult will be the ones where it puts us, as the adult, in a position where we have to go against someone in authority, or someone whose opinion we really value and we're concerned about their response when we're sort of advocating for our child.So it's no easy thing, but it really is about your child's experience of being heard, seen, believed, honoured. Yeah.Laura: Yeah. You remind me a lot of a conversation I had with the psychologist, Hillary McBride, who is author of the book Wisdom of Your Body, and she talks a lot about embodiment, and we had a conversation about children's embodiment, and it was, you know, there, there are situations, of course, where we can't let our kids stay home because we have to go to work and we don't have any other form of childcare. As much as we would love to stay home with them all day and to let them rest and get all the things that they need, but again, late stage capitalism doesn't allow that. One of the things that she pulled out was just this idea that, even when we have to hold a boundary with our child, that we believe their experience, that we trust them and that we kind of, yeah, validate, I think, their experience because that will enable them to hold on to that seed of being able to trust their own embodied wisdom. You're nodding away there. I don't know if you have anything else that you would like to add to that. Sarah: Yeah. So in my world, sometimes parents will say, yeah, but like consent is all very well, but what about, I've got a two year old who doesn't want to get into their car seat and we were going to wherever we're going and they have to be in the car seat.I'm like, yeah, yes, they do absolutely have to be in the car seat. And so in my world, I would be talking about informed consent versus like consent. And so a two year old doesn't have enough information and understanding about the implications for what they want to do. They don't understand that that puts them in danger.And so understanding that, while a two year old is very sort of clear on what they need, we have more information. That doesn't mean what they need is wrong. It just means we have more information and we need to facilitate sort of understanding, and that can be really hard when your two year old is doing the banana body and just, there's no way you can get the seatbelt on, you know?And so oftentimes it's about creating a culture when that clash of needs is not happening. So when your two year old is screaming, saying no, about getting in the seat, that's not the time to sit down and explain various things, but maybe there's another time the following day. Where it's possible to say, you know, I love you and my job is to keep you safe.And let's think of all the ways you need to be kept safe, or some of the ways. And you can list off, you know, electricity and fire and other things and then say, and did you know, cars are really dangerous if we don't have seatbelts on, just very like, little drops of knowledge and then I suppose that we can set our two year old up for success.And that could look like…like kids do really well with context, connection and choice, right? So getting to the car, setting context, in half an hour, we're going to need to get in the car. What does your body need to do before we do that? Do you want to run around? What sort of, what busyness? Because you remember, we're going to have to sit in the seat with the belt on.So context, connection, getting down and showing them that you see them. I love you. And I know that your body has a hard time being in the car seat. What can I do to help you out? Like letting them know, we see them, we understand what their experience is like. And then the choice is really offering as much choice as possible.So the seatbelt isn't a non-negotiable thing, but maybe there's other choices. Would you like to take a toy? Or would you like to choose the music? Or would you like to have a special blankie or like try and find all the ways that if your kid, the feeling of at least a little bit of autonomy so that you can keep them safe without too much conflict.And I…like I had three two year olds, I know it's not easy and we're all strapped for time. But if you sort of take a step back and think about it in the broader context, it's not just about that moment where you're trying to put them into the car. Context, connection, and choice are one of those things that's going to help you help your kid. And if you can do that, you feel good. Don't you? As a parent and like, Oh, like, wow. For the first time ever, my two year old got into the car seat without a screaming match. Like that's a win. And that helps me anyway, feel warm and fuzzy. Laura: Oh, it definitely makes such a difference when you feel like you're maxed out, but then you get that win.And I mean, you're speaking my language, Sarah, and it's the exact same approach that I would take to a child who was struggling to come to the table, or who was really having a hard time eating and getting everything that they needed from food, you know, that connection piece is so important. And I will spare you the TED talk about everything that I see on Instagram that prioritises like these cheap wins over real connection over the feeding relationship. So yeah, I'll rein it back to what we're talking about here. Sarah: You know, when I was thinking about this, that we're going to have this conversation together, I was imagining that you and I at work would probably be that thing where we're holding onto different parts of the elephant. And while my work may look different, it's two parts of exactly the same thing. So I'm pleased to hear that is absolutely the case. Laura: 100%. So I got quite a few questions sent in. I'm not sure if we'll have time to go through them all, but I would really love to get your take on them. So these were sent in on Instagram that, you know, in the Instagram boxes, it's like a really tiny little space. So not all of them have all the context that I think we would need. I'll just shoot anyway. So the first one was “How to explain to kids why some stuff you do in private”. Again, there's no context here, but I'm going to assume that this parent means that their child is touching their vulva or their penis.Maybe…I mean, unless you have any other thoughts as to what might be going on there, but that seemed to be the most obvious thing to my mind. Sarah: Yeah, well, let's assume that. It's like anything else. We can think of other scenarios, that something is right in one context, but not another context. So oftentimes I will say, well, when we're going for a picnic in the park and we're sitting on a blanket. It makes total sense to use our hands, right? Cause we're probably eating a sandwich or a muffin or something, but when we go to granny's house and she served us tomato soup in a bowl, then what makes the most sense is to use a spoon. Or what do we wear when we go to the local swimming pool? Wear our swimmers. What do we do when we go to watch a movie in the cinema? Well, it wouldn't make sense at all to wear our swimmers. We'd get cold in the air conditioning anyway. We need maybe some trousers and a T-shirt. Same thing. With our genitals, depending on where our genitals are or like where our body is, well, there'll be different rules for them.So when we're on our own, when we're in the bathroom, when we're in our room, our genitals are our own. We can touch them and feel them and notice what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And you know, we wash our hands afterwards to make sure we don't spread any germs around the place, but your genitals are yours and you get to touch them and do with them whatever way you want. When we're outside, all the other people, they're allowed to not want to see us playing with our genitals, right? So we don't do it. Because if we didn't have that rule whereby people don't play with their genitals in public, then a lot of people might start playing with their genitals on the bus or in the playground or at school. And then it would be chaos. Not everyone wants to see other people's genitals or their hands down there. So it's just about common courtesy, really. And using analogies for other parts of life, where that same dynamic applies, it tends to ease us adults who are feeling a little bit squeaky about having that conversation in, because it's like, this is the same dynamic that plays out everywhere else in human existence. It just so happens because this is about genitals. Sometimes we're like, eh, I don't know what, help, help. Because maybe we're trying to reduce the likelihood of our child feeling shame, probably because when we were growing up, we were made to feel ashamed by what the adults around us said, and not because they were perhaps doing that on purpose, but because that's what they… Laura: They didn't have it shown to them. Yeah. Sarah: They, they didn't know. And most likely they would've been doing it with good intentions. Yeah. Some of us, you know, the adults that cared for us did not have good intentions. For the most part, though, most adults do, whatever level of ability we have talking about sensitive things is exactly right, depending on what's been in our past.So just because someone in the playground, a parent, is really good at this stuff, and we're not, that doesn't mean they're a better parent. They were just dealt a different hand and that's just the way it is. Laura: Yeah. I hear you say that it's really important to have some self compassion when you are thinking about these issues.Thinking about having these conversations with your kid, but you kind of get that lump in your throat and you're not really quite sure how exactly to handle them, that just thinking about it, is a really good starting point, isn't it? And then from there, if you notice, Oh, I'm…well, it's checking in with your own bodily experiences, right, and saying, okay, what's coming up for me and where do I need some support or some help or some resources to help me open up these conversations.I really love the analogies that you use because these…yeah, it's a very similar thing, you know, talking about context and what's appropriate – I have some feelings about the word appropriate, but let's not get into that. One question that kind of came to my mind as you were explaining how you might approach that conversation. I'm curious if other parents might have this same thought, is that oftentimes in books around body boundaries and consent, they talk about your genitals as being private. So you know, one of the books that we have talks about how everything that's underneath your bathing suit, you know, it's your body, it's private.Would you use that kind of language, or how might you use that language? Do you find that helpful, or not so much? Sarah: There's a lovely author called Cory Silverberg, and they wrote three books for children of various ages. Laura: They're so good, these books. Sarah: Yeah, they're great. That author coined this idea of middle parts, and so the idea is rather than using private parts, using middle parts to generally describe genitals, because when we talk about private parts, it's just…it makes it complicated to give a child shame-free ownership of those parts of their body, right? One of the shifts in a family culture that can be really useful is this idea that in our family, we talk about everything.So, in a sense, particularly when kids are small, genitals aren't really private in families. Right? Laura: This is the exact thing that I've bumped up against with my three year old who still needs me to wipe his butt. And so there is that confusing thing of like, well, if this is private, but I need help with this or, you know, I still need to bathe him.And even the example that you gave earlier where we walk around our house nude, but we don't go outside nude, right? Like that can be a confusing thing. So I'm sorry to interject, but it just…you're articulating the exact, the exact thing that I have bumped up against. Sarah: Yeah. And so I suppose, again, it's another demonstration of something that manifests in lots of different ways in our parenting, but because it's to do with genitals, it's a bit like, Oh, not quite sure how this works.So the whole dynamic of raising children is that in the beginning, we're having to do a lot of things for them that they will eventually do themselves, feeding, cleaning, dressing, even sort of communicating, like taking the whole burden of communication off them onto us. So we're interpreting sounds and body language and all that sort of thing.So you can explain that dynamic to a child and say that there are certain parts of our body that are more sensitive than others and middle parts or genitals like penis or a vulva or whatever, there's a lot of special skin on those parts. And what that means is that they need special care, right? Now, when you're grown up and when you're, you know, maybe you're 8 or you're 10, you're going to wash those and put your clothes on those parts of your body. And you won't really need an adult's help at all. And you probably definitely won't want an adult's help, but while you're still small and I'm having to help you do a few other things, this is one of the parts of your body that, that you need help with.And my job is to help you eventually do it all on your own. Right. You would need to also say that bit about only trusted people help us with our most sensitive parts of ourselves. Right. And I suppose as a reminder that it's not just genitals we're talking about here. We're also talking about anus and we're talking about mouth because those are parts of the body too that can be used in ways that are really hurtful for people who don't have a child's best interest at heart. So when you're framing it in that way, there's less sense of like…the word private tends to put a shroud over things where, if you're talking about the sensitive special skin and special parts, then it's more like it's an honour and a privilege sort of thing, like to support you in this part of your being human. And to me, it just feels more gentle and collaborative and kind of nurturing. Laura: Yeah, I often thought about, like, the language of private parts as well as being a little bit confusing from the perspective of, like, as in when kids mature into young adults where they might want to start sharing their bodies with other people in a respectful, consensual way.Again, if it's got that sort of private, you know, shroud of shame connotation, then that's going to be a lot harder for them to do that in a way that, that feels safe.Sarah: I'm laughing because I remember a meme that I saw, it would have been years ago now, but it was like, lies we tell children, number one, we don't lick other people's private parts.And just sort of like this, like head in the hand, like face palm, like, moment where, well, actually, when you get older…And I suppose what it illustrates is, when we're talking to kids, we have all this information and knowledge about where things could go as adults, right? They don't have an understanding of that.And I suppose it's no harm really to allow ourselves as adults to simplify it at a particular point in time, right? Knowing that as our kids get older, that truth that we've told will no longer be true. Right. And so, and that's where resources like Cory Silverberg's book, Sex is a Funny Word or, You Know Sex. Sex is a Funny Word is for around, around seven and eight years, And, You Know Sex is sort of for 10 to 14 year olds where it's really clear, it's a lot about how our bodies are instruments of pleasure, right? Which is often another conversation that adults find hard to have with kids. You know, that classic thing where you have that conversation about how babies are made or well, sperms and eggs get together and a penis goes into a vagina, if those two people want to do that, or you might talk about IVF or artificial insemination, but if it's a penis in a vagina… Laura: It leaves out a whole part of the conversation as to why people have sex. Yeah. Sarah: Exactly. And so oftentimes the kids will come back and say, all right, so I've been thinking about that. So that means you and dad did that twice, right? And parents will go, Oh, which actually just demonstrates that, like you said, a whole section of the conversation that was was left out about pleasure. So I think in these moments, when we're talking to kids about boundaries and safety, it's possible to simplify it a bit, knowing that down the road, one of our important jobs is to bring this whole pleasure and sharing our bodies with other people, and that naturally comes as they grow older and they start cluing in on more things to do with…they see the diversity in relationships around their extended community and family, you know, like if you have a same sex couple in your community, it makes it so much easier. And thank you to all the out gay and bi people, right?Because it makes it so much easier to have the pleasure conversation because it's so clear that if a child has had those conversations that sex really is only a penis and a vagina that all of a sudden you get this beautiful opportunity to talk about, well, actually intimacy is so much more about pleasure and how bodies feel good and how, when we share our body with someone else and we trust them and they trust us, then we get to help another person's body feel really good.There are lots of different ways that that happens. And then remember that in parenting, sometimes you don't have to say everything, like you can…Um, if you have a child who really needs things to be quite concretised, so an autistic child, for example, who really needs very specific communication. I'm autistic, I know what it means when someone's beating around the bush and I have to say, can you just tell me, tell me exactly what you mean by that? What does that mean? And then they're clear. And I'm like, okay, fine. And there are children like that, but some kids, you know, the information layers on over time, so it's far more about just holding your nerve and knowing that over the weeks and the months and the years to come, there'll be lots of opportunity to do and say and read all the things.Laura: And that's exactly what I was going to say is, reminding ourselves that, that this isn't a one and done conversation, that we will be having, if we're lucky and privileged to continue having these conversations with our kids, if they trust us enough to keep coming to us for these conversations, then it will be an iterative, as you say, layering on more information and more nuance as they developmentally can grasp that.So, I'm really curious to hear your answer to this question, because I bet there's a ton that you would love to say, but the person who sent this question in asked, “Four year old is asking questions, I'm not sure she's actually ready to hear the answer about, what do I do?” Sarah: I always say that if a child is asking the question, then they need to know the answer.Oftentimes in parenting advice, you'll hear people say, first of all, you ask them, well, what do you know already? And again, I go back to that old thing about, okay, where else in parenting do we check, well, what do you know already? Like there may be some places where you genuinely want to know, okay, do you know the basics of the solar system, for example? And so then I can just tell you, answer the question based on your knowledge, but oftentimes adults will use that, what do you know already as a way to sort of like create space. Laura: Or deflect. Sarah: Yeah, deflect. That's right. Or create space. And that's not a bad thing if your brain is trying to catch up. But all I would say is, a four year old has huge amounts of capacity for understanding sperms and eggs and uteruses and testicles and lots of things. And as a general rule, if we think a child isn't old enough to get the answer to something, it's probably because there's something in our past or a worry that we have that we don't know is there.So short answer, answer the question and see what happens, and use simple language in a way that you would use for answering any other questions you might ask. Laura: It's interesting, just maybe a point of difference in how we might approach things, because if a, for example, if a child came to me and asked, is this healthy for me? Like this food. Usually, I would be really curious to know, okay, well, I'm interested, what do you think? Do you think this is a healthy food? Just to get a gauge of, like, what information they've picked up or what they've learned so that I'm kind of starting from where they are and then maybe building from there.But I also see, like, how in certain situations it could be, like, Oh, fuck. I'm in too deep here. So let's just get the kid to do the hard work for me. Yeah. Sarah: And I guess, again, it's about how much stigma and shame culturally exists around a topic. There's a lot of stigma and shame that exists around…there is a lot of cultural shit around your topic as well, right? They're both heavily laden. Laura: But I would argue that you probably, uh, win on this, Sarah: Yeah. Yay! My topic's more stigmatised! Laura: You got it, yeah! I think what we're saying is, the point is to have the conversation, right? To think about, and again, what we were saying before, noticing what comes up in us when that question is asked.Sarah: And if you need to buy time, one of the great ways to do it is to say, Oh, I love that question. I'm so glad you asked it. Even if you're lying because you're freaking out, reinforce how great it is that they brought that up. I love that question. I'm so glad you asked it. I want to make sure I give you the best answer I can. So I'll get back to you tomorrow. Now, if you say that. You must get back to them tomorrow, otherwise it's a breach of trust. And remember, we're trying to be askable adults, the people they trust the most to come to them with their worst and best questions and worries. So that's really important. So you, in rugby language, you kick for touch. You tell them you come back tomorrow, you run around and find your most trusted sex educator, or you go to your therapist or ask your best friend who seems to know how to do all these things. And then you go back to your kid the next day.Laura: Yeah. I did not understand the rugby reference, but everything else you said sounded really good.Sarah: Kicking for touch means, like, you take the ball and you kick it as far down the pitch as you can, hoping that it will bounce in exactly the right way that you can run down and start from that point. Right. Laura: Got it. Okay, I'm with you. Alright, another quick question, just in general: smashing gender stereotypes for a three year old who has turned out like a princess. They love glitter, and dresses, and pink, and does not enjoy wearing pants, despite the parents best efforts to show her a variety of gender roles. And then the same person kind of asked a follow up question, which is, is it okay to just…let her be tacky and think she's a Disney princess, even if I wish it was different.So yeah, questions about gender roles and offering a variety of, not even offering a variety, but challenging gender stereotypes. Sarah: So I'll answer the second part of that question first. It is absolutely okay to allow your three year old to be as tacky and as pink or as glittery as they want. Absolutely.And that goes for a child of any gender. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also say that for some of us, there is a desire, I suppose, to fix everything that's wrong with the world through a small person who's growing up. And really they're one human. Yeah, and they're themselves and they're an individual. And I remember thinking a lot about this when my daughter was, I can't remember what she was, we started to get into YouTube videos about makeup and she loved makeup and I really had to do a lot of soul searching and personal sort of, like, care because I really wanted to fix the whole of the patriarchy when it came to like appearance and that whole makeup culture and everything. But I realized that no, no, that's not my job. And it's definitely not my 11 year old, 10 year old's job. My job is to love her and support her and help her feel like she is the best thing since sliced bread. Even if she is…has interests along sort of gender stereotype lines. And yeah, so remembering that in the moment when we're thinking of, Oh, we want to sort of fix the gender stereotypes and all that stuff. That really our child's body is not the place in which to do that. If you have a desire to create some sort of change, find somewhere else to do it.And look, the person who's asking these questions has already done a really great job of providing diversity and opportunity to see different things in their home. And so, you know, you've done what you can do and you continue to look at yourself and notice, okay, where are some of the ways that I might unthinkingly be following stereotypical lines and maybe then volunteer for some organisation or donate money somewhere else who's doing work related to gender and get on loving your kid and doing all the sparkly, tulle, pink, whatever it is. Unicorns. Yeah. Laura: Yeah. I think that's such a helpful reminder is that, you know, kids are not our like personal projects for righting everything that is wrong in the world and that there are other ways that we can create opportunities for them, show that we will be loving, accepting no matter what they decide they want to be when they grow up or how they want to express themselves or, you know, who they want to be in relationships with or any of that stuff that we can. There…you know, it doesn't have to be this either/or binary because so much of what is problematic about systems in the world is that they're binary, right?And so we…I suppose one thing that we can do is work to not replicate binaries in our, in our own home and in our parenting. And I have a little curveball question for you that I wanted to ask, which is kind of related to, something else we talked about at the very beginning around people feeling entitled to kids' bodies, and I promise I didn't just get you on the podcast to answer my own parenting shit, but I was curious to hear if you had or how you might approach this or if you had any thoughts on this. Something that we come up against quite a lot is people really feeling entitled to explanations from my three year old. You know, that thing, which again can be like very well connected, meaning and people want to connect with him by asking, you know, what's your name? What's your age? But then they always ask, are you a boy or a girl?And It just feels so invasive and I can tell that he feels invaded because he kind of like, you know, curls into me, and it's one of those things where I just want to say. There is no such thing as a girl or a boy. What are you talking about? Like, and just launch into this whole diatribe about gender roles and, and things, but it, you know, the corner shop is not the place to do that.So I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on how you can kind of say to your child, like, it wasn't okay that they asked you that question. And, you know, I could tell that you were uncomfortable with that question while also maybe kind of like deflecting that question, does that make sense what I'm asking?Sarah: In a sense, you've partially answered it already because what you said there about saying to your kid afterwards, that question was, I could see it made you uncomfortable. What you're doing is you're, you're reflecting back their experience of it and reinforcing that that was a valid response, right?And so you're really sort of saying that made sense to me that you felt like that, that felt a bit weird. And you could even be more sort of broad and say, you know, some people ask questions that don't feel comfortable or feel a bit unkind or feel a bit rough. Whatever is the natural language that your, your kid would resonate with.But the other thing would be to – and you may already do this – is in the moment when it's happening and the person in the shop has asked that question, you can see your kid's body language doing what it's doing. You could simply say, Oh, I noticed that that question, it feels, it feels uncomfortable. So how about we talk about what we're buying in the shop, or did you know that apples is our favorite fruit? This is a personal choice. Actually. Some people would choose to deflect in a way that's very sort of gentle and easy going, because in the presence of a child, they're not interested in raising the conflict, elevating the energy. So do that way. Some people are more comfortable saying simply, you know, we don't really talk about gender in our house. We're much more interested in… whatever it is. So like it's finding the balance that feels right to you in being able to redirect…or I had one person just simply ignored questions they thought was stupid, they just like blanked them and went, okay, good to see you and off they went or, okay, we're going off to get the milk now. And just like, just pretended that it hadn't even happened, you know. It's different for everyone. There will be, and I'll speak to this too, there will be some people that don't have the personal capacity to manage any of the options that we've just mentioned here. You know, and there's someone in my community who something similar happened, they were in the park and a dear family friend, I think was about 50, saw them after, it might've been after COVID. So it'd been a few years and, her daughter was probably about 10 and he sort of, he moved in or something and she could see her daughter's whole body. So like, like shrink like this, but in the moment, yeah. Did not have the capacity. Like didn't see it coming. Hadn't thought about any of this stuff before. And so the interaction happened, he left and she hadn't been able to do anything about it, which makes complete sense because there are many of us, we go into a trauma response that reflects what's happened to us in our past, where we also were mute or I didn't have power to, to sort of do anything about that.So also, I suppose, a recognition of that. We all have different capacity when it comes to a situation like this and to reiterate and go back to that thing again about self compassion, whatever you have capacity to do in that moment is exactly right. It is not possible to achieve something if you don't have the underlying ability or experience or knowledge to do that.And so there's no shame, there's no blaming about that. It purely gives you an opportunity to notice. And then maybe at some point you'll have the ability to reach out for help. And for some of us, we don't have the ability to reach out for help for 5 years, 10 years. Some of us never in our life because we don't have the economic advantage or the educational support to do so.So it's just a small reminder that we all start in this area at completely different places on this spectrum of ability. And it doesn't mean you're bad or wrong. It simply means you are who you are with the life that you had. Laura: Sarah, I just want to – before we do our snacks – I just wanted to say, I felt myself get emotional at what you were saying there because it's just…the work that you're doing is so important and I know makes such a difference to the families that you help and I know you put a ton of like free resources and content out there.So I'm just really grateful to all the work that you're doing and yeah, just shining a light on these really difficult, challenging conversations in a way that is so compassionate and so just nuanced and thoughtful and yeah, I just know that you're making a big difference for a ton of people, so I wanted to say thank you.And I want to know what your snack is! At the end of every episode, my guest and I share something they've been snacking on. It can be a show, a podcast, a book, you know, like a literal snack, whatever it is that you've been really into lately. So what have you got for us? Sarah: Yeah, well, this is actually something quite personal because, you know, I mentioned about being autistic.And that diagnosis came very late in life for me, only last year. So the thing I'm snacking on is noticing when it's possible to truly be myself, as opposed to do something that I've learned to do to make everyone else feel comfortable, you know, and that can be something as simple as, well, this isn't simple. Actually, this is quite challenging for me. I was at a, like a week long training for…a therapy training that I'm doing the other week. And instead of sitting on the chair, I sat on the floor because that's where my body felt the most comfortable. So, and it felt so damn good, you know, like it didn't feel just good to sit on the floor. It felt good to honour who I was. And so in an ideal world, I guess, honouring who I am wouldn't be a snack, but because this is a work in progress. It absolutely is a snack right now, and I'm grateful for it. Laura: Oh, I love that. And a lot of people who are part of the Can I Have Another Snack? community are neurodivergent, and I'm sure will really resonate with that experience of, yeah, unmasking and feeling like really comfortable doing that and how, yeah, just affirming that feels. So yeah, thank you for, for sharing that. Oh, my thing is just going to sound really trite compared to that, but my thing is a show, it's called Deadloch. Have you seen it?Sarah: Is that the Australian show? Oh, it's so good. Laura: Yeah. So, okay. So I'm excited to be able to talk to someone about it because I feel like not a lot of people have come across it.Uh, so it's set in Tasmania. It's all I can describe it as…is like a lesbian detective show. Sarah: That's about it. And like, it's so quirky, isn't it? Like it's just so random and weird and sometimes dark and sometimes hilarious. And it's sort of like, it's, it's wild. I'm so glad you love that. Laura: It is wild. And so there's, there's only one season, which is really disappointing, but it…each episode is an hour, so I feel like it's enough that you can, like, get stuck in. And I am someone who, like, my nervous system cannot handle a lot of stress, anxiety in the shows that I watch, I need to, like, be able to decompress. I do want to say that...it is a murder mystery, like it does ramp up in terms of the suspense across the season I want to say, but there's enough dark humour and comedy and, like, a lot of swearing and ridiculousness that it kind of like tempers it out and yeah, so it's really good. I highly recommend it. Sarah: It's amazing. Can I just say, from the perspective of sensitive conversations to the writers of that show, they had to write a rationale for why the word cunt should be in the script because it's used prolifically. For anyone who doesn't know, in Australian colloquial swearing language, cunt is used for lots of different things and it's important it was in there, culturally. It was super important. So I just loved that. And the other thing I loved was that – this isn't a spoiler – the victims of the crimes are not the gender you think, like you naturally assume them to be based on a lot of other like TV crime you would see.So there's some things that comes out and it just sort of skews your expectation based on what the culture has given you, that invisible influence of normal in crime shows, you know? Laura: There is a lot of cultural stuff that is a kind of cultural critique, I suppose, that around gender, around racism, there's a lot of stuff that it touches on, but there is prolific use of the C word.But it, it's just like the way that it is thrown in, it's just very well done. The whole thing is very well done. So highly recommend. Sarah: And can I just say one thing, because you said “the C word” and I think it's important. Because when I was about 28, I was able to reclaim the word cunt because I was in a relationship with an artist at that point and a poet.And he said to me, because I was like, Ooh, that's a yuck word, he said, did you know like, it comes from the old…Old English or Old Norse or something, something of like, when you're ploughing that there's like, the plough leaves a cunt behind in the soil. And I was sort of like, oh, that actually sort of made me feel like, well, that's sort of nice. Like it's a similar sort of look. And for some reason, it just made me feel like I think I could reclaim that word. Not that other people can't, but from that time on, I was like, yeah, okay, that word and I, we can coexist with relative equanimity. Laura: Do you know what? I don't even know why I censored myself because I say cunt all the time.You're a cunt, you're a cunt, they're a cunt. But I understand that maybe not everybody is as comfortable with that word.Sarah, before I let you go, can you let everybody know where they can find you and learn more about your work? Sarah: Sure. Well, my Instagram is @IAmSarahSproule. And at the moment in the season that I'm in, which is really about unmasking and making sure I rest as much as I can. There's not a lot of new things out there, but there is about three years worth of very detailed content there about how to talk to kids about all sorts of things that all different ages, and it's well worth trawling back through there and, getting your fill of support. So that's where the main place you can find me. Laura: Yeah, I will link to all of that in the show notes and there's some great farting content on there as well, which I really appreciate and enjoy. Sarah, it's been such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for sharing everything with us. I know we could have gone on for like another 90 minutes, but I will wrap up there and let you go. Thanks so much, Sarah.OUTROThanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI this week: Let's Talk All Things Neurodiversity and Food* How are you flipping gender scripts for your kids?* Nourishing Full Bodied Awareness with Hillary McBride* Let's Talk About Snacks, Baby This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe
“We are batteries made out of water charged by sunlight,” explains Quantum Health Clinician and Educator, Laura Kissmann. Without exposure to natural light, the circadian rhythm that controls all the biological processes in the body will become misaligned. Although Laura now spends her time performing energy healing through quantum health practices such as red light therapy and access bars, she did not start out this way. Laura spent decades serving in the Canadian military as well as four years in an underground bunker surrounded by EMF while working for NORAD. In this episode, Laura shares her career and health history for a side by side analysis of what her environmental conditions were at the time each of her symptoms developed. Environmental conditions that are out of alignment with the body's biological needs are at the root of all disease. Although it would be decades before Laura understood the connection between her environment and her numerous physical symptoms, she began to put the pieces together much earlier that something about her lifestyle was negatively impacting her health. When Laura began her military career, she was a young, healthy athlete. Then came decades of being forced to wear shoes that caused her to develop plantar fasciitis, followed by spending twelve hours per day in an underground bunker under fluorescent lighting, surrounded by EMF signals. After the birth of her first child, Laura was sicker than ever, experiencing symptoms that turned out to be hyperthyroidism, leaky gut, intestinal parasites, and chemical sensitivity. Looking back through Laura's health history alongside her environmental conditions gives valuable insight into how circadian dysfunction caused her health to decline. When you take the time to analyze your physical and mental health symptoms through the lens of quantum biology, the immense impact of your environment on your health will become more and more clear. Be your own quantum health detective and see where your own environment may be misaligned with your body's natural biology. Quotes “Sometimes people can't fully get well, if they don't address the traumas, the mental emotional stuff.” (3:13-3:21 | Laura) “With Access Bars, at worst, it's a relaxing massage, and at best it changes your whole life.” (9:27-9:33 | Laura) “The environment that we put our body in and the type of exposure that our body receives in that environment is the absolute most critical thing.” (35:58-36:07 | Meredith) “Circadian rhythm controls every process in the body, and circadian rhythm is controlled by natural light.” (44:02-44:08 | Meredith) “You want to be synced with the sun. If you're not synced with the sun, it's going to lead to disease in the body.” (58:22-58:30 | Laura) “You can become diabetic from blue light.” (1:01:23-1:01:25 | Laura) Links Connect with Laura Kissmann: Website: https://laurakissmannwellness.com/ Instagram: @lkwellness To find a practitioner who understand the health principles of quantum biology: www.quantumbiologycollective.org To become a QBC member and get invites to live deep dives & access to our video library: www.quantumhealthtv.com To take our 8 week practitioner certification in the science of quantum biology so that you can add it to your existing area of expertise: www.appliedquantumbiology.com Follow on Twitter, Instagram & Facebook: @quantumhealthtv Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm
:: If you're enjoying this podcast please give us an honest review! It helps so much! xo, Laura :: You might think that you want a fast metabolism, but that's not exactly the case. We want our metabolism to be FLEXIBLE so it can easily move through periods of fat loss, maintenance, and muscle building with fluidity, without becoming resistant or "slow". If you're like the women I work with every day, you may unknowingly hurt your metabolism by doing these common diet mistakes but luckily there's a way to help your metabolism "heal" and start burning fat more efficiently. Listen to the end for a simple and time-saving solution. Resources WAITLIST OPEN: The Cravings Code Feb 2024: Reduce cravings & overeating by up to 70% & prime your mindset & metabolism to naturally eat fewer calories & sustainably lose weight. The Cravings CLEANUP 7-Day FREE Challenge Timestamps (00:00:53) - Intro to 3 things than can impact your metabolism (00:01:43) - Metabolism: what it is and how it works (00:04:16) - #1 Skipping meals (00:07:35) - #2 Caffeine and alcohol (00:10:25) - #3 Giving into every sweet, salty, carby, savory craving (00:12:12) - How to BOOST your metabolism (00:13:13) - #CravingsCLEANUP Challenge! Connect with me! Instagram:@lauracavallo__cravings_coach Facebook: @LauraCavalloCoaching888 TikTok: @lauracavallo_coaching Website: www.lauracavallocoaching.com
Growing up, Laura Graber's father was an alcoholic. He was also addicted to pornography and molested his daughters. There was constant tension and the fear of sexually inappropriate behavior of their father in their home, to the point that Laura was afraid of taking a shower. Laura grew up in an Amish family; while many have the perception that the Amish live pristine, peaceful lives, an undercurrent of unspoken sexual abuse is alive in their community. In this first of two interviews, Laura shares her story. Laura Graber on Sexual Abuse - Part 1 - Transcript ANNOUNCER: This radio program is PG-13. Parents strongly cautioned: some material may be inappropriate for children under the age of 13. Jesus's mission was to comfort those who mourn, bind up the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to captives, and open prison doors for those who are bound for those who want more than status quo Christianity has to offer, Blazing Grace Radio begins now. And here is your host, Mike Genung: MIKE GENUNG, HOST, BLAZING GRACE RADIO: Hey, Mike Genung here, and welcome back to Blazing Grace Radio. Glad to have you along. It's a beautiful sunshiny day here in Phoenix, AZ. And before I introduce our guest, a couple of quick announcements. May 5th - 7th I'll be in Italy, the north side, leading a men's retreat there. May 13th I'll be in Vienna, Austria leading an all day conference. On that Saturday, May 20th, we'll be in Finland for several speaking engagements. And then, May 27th, I'll be back to the UK in Frimley Green, which is a little southeast of London, holding an all day conference on that Saturday. And then June 3rd holding another conference - all day conference - in North Wales. So for our listeners there in the UK and Europe, I'd love to see you. Go to the website at blazinggrace.org, there's an events calendar on the homepage. And so today I have back with me at the program, Mrs. Laura Graber from James Port, Missouri, Laura my friend and welcome back to the program. LAURA GRABER: Thanks for having me, Mike. It's an honor. MIKE: Thanks for coming on. And so, Laura's going to be with us the next two weeks, and today we'll be talking about some sexual abuse issues she encountered growing up in her family. And then next week, what she's been through with porn addiction in her marriage. And a common thread that can run through both of those scenarios, is anxiety and fears. So along the way, we'll be picking that conversation up and looking at what recovery looks like. So let's begin, Laura, and go and begin by sharing what you went through growing up. LAURA: Sure, absolutely. So I grew up in a in a Baptist Amish home. So, you know, a lot of people have their opinion of how they think the Amish are [laughs] who they are and how they live their lives. Granted, my home that I grew up in was was an exception. Thankfully there's not many of them in the culture, but my father was an alcoholic. And with that came lots of anger and rage, and, you know, all the aspects of that. And as I grew up there became more and more sexual impurities in his life, became more evident, until it got to the point where he definitely was sexually abusing us through a lot of different forms. For a long time in my life I was able to ignore it, and not, you know, call it for what it was because it didn't seem like that big of a deal. Which is, a lot of times, what sexual impurities and sexual sin... you can lie to yourself for a while, believing that it's not as bad as you perceive it to be. But... so, obviously, growing up with a father that you know was an alcoholic, and angry, there was lots of tension in our home. My parents would fight a lot, and argue a lot, and just always being tense, never knowing when something would tip them off. And he would spank you, per se, but it was much more than disciplining you. It was a way for him to unleash his anger, you know, using a whip or, you know, whatever he had close to his hands to use. So a large part of my childhood was spent, like, just living in constant fear. I remember bumping his chair one Sunday afternoon as a little kid, when he was taking a nap, and getting a beating because I bumped his chair. MIKE: Mmm. LAURA: You know, just instances that were completely crazy, you know? Yeah. Sometimes he would come to the table and I'd have to sit beside him and... because that's how we sat at the table, in that row. And he would be angry because he's looking for an excuse, you know? Someone to take his anger out on. And it was so nerve wracking trying to eat, you know, just fear, just complete fear. So obviously as I got older, you know, in the age of eight, nine, ten years old, I started becoming aware that... I can't necessarily pinpoint, like what happened, that I knew to never be alone with him. But I was always very aware at a young age, you know, if he was in the house and there's no one else in the house, like, don't be in the house with him. Yeah, I just... I spent a large part of my life just not being in the same place as him, alone. So by the age of 8-9 years old, he would make me uncomfortable with staring at me. And that led to, you know, occasionally he would, you know, try to touch me as I walk past him, or depending on where you sat or what you were wearing, he would be staring at you. He would write vulgar things on, you know, papers and leave them laying around where... you know, if I was, if he was out in the shop and I was out there too, he'd be sitting there, you know, looking at, like, magazines that were full of, you know, porn, literally. MIKE: Right in front of his daughter? LAURA: Yes, yes. MIKE: Mhmm. LAURA: I mean, he would sometimes try to hide the cover, but I knew they came in the mail. And, you know, we knew that's what he had in his hands. You know, we walked behind him, you'd see what he had. There was just like... slowly but surely it kept getting worse. And I was very naive, like no one... like, my mom would have never talked to me about sexual things, you know, growing up. So for me it was, it was all foreign. It was disturbing to me, like, disgusting to me. Like, I knew it wasn't right, and yet I had no one to explain to me, like, that this is wrong. So it's kind of, yeah, a lot of confusion mixed in with that. But it kept on going throughout my teenage years. You know, like, if in the morning, if he would hear that you're awake then he would all of a sudden, you know, open the bedroom door in hopes to catch us changing. Or if you were showering, the the lock on the door didn't work very well. Which I'd say it was probably done on purpose. And he would, you know, open the door and pretend he didn't know you were in there. It got to the point where us young little girls would, you know, if one of us were showering, the other one would be hanging around the bathroom door or be inside the bathroom just so he didn't try those things. He would, by the time I was like 13-14 years old, he would, like, in the living room evenings, he would sit on his recliner in front of everyone and be masturbating or something. You just... yeah, lots of very disturbing things. MIKE: In front of the whole family? LAURA: A lot of disturbing things. Yes. Yes. I mean, obviously I had older brothers, and if they were around he never acted out in front of them as much. He definitely hid it from them, because there was a time when some of us younger girls started speaking up a bit, and my brothers were just kind of like "What?", you know? Like they didn't know this stuff was happening. So I think he hid it more from them than what I realized, you know, at the time. But yeah, like, my mom would be sitting there sometimes, so us girls would just, I spent... I remember spending quite a bit of evenings in the bedroom until he went to bed. He'd go to bed fairly early. You know, 8:30, 8:00, something like that. And then coming out in the living room and hanging out with mom after he went to the bedroom. So yeah, that was just reality. And I somewhat knew that other dads maybe weren't like that, but it just felt too much for your brain to even process that, that this isn't completely normal. Because then I would have had to admit that this is wrong and there's something wrong. And that felt terrifying to me. Yeah. I would have much rather just had to live in an alternative reality and not face the actual effect that all of that was having on me at the time. MIKE: Mhmm. LAURA: So yeah, he was very... a vulgar person. I mean he would tell me that I was made to satisfy the other half of the population. Oh, that would that would make me very, very angry. [laughs] Obviously. Yeah. Those things kind of all continued until my parents separated when I was 16 years old. And yeah, so obviously that released me from having to live in the same house as him. The last year before they separated I would be home a lot alone with him and my mom. And that last year was... it was awful. It was completely awful. I know there was other people around on the weekends, a lot to distract him. And yeah, it was just a lot that happened that, sometimes I wonder if I even gathered, you know, mentally, today - years later - you know, what all took place. But yeah, so that obviously left me with a lot of, like, the mindset of, like, anything sexual is disturbing and disgusting. And even viewing men in general, in a very... ungodly way. Just, like, being disgusted by males in general, which in a sense, like, God used for good. Because I didn't have a lot of boy drama in my life [laughs] as a teenager. So that was... that was a little positive in the whole aspect. Yeah. Kind of a small glimpse of of my childhood growing up. MIKE: How many kids in your family? LAURA: There was nine of us, and I was the youngest. MIKE: How many boys? How many girls? LAURA: There was five boys and four girls. Actually, I said that exactly opposite, four girls... five girls and four boys. MIKE: And your brothers had no idea that a chunk of this was going on. LAURA: There was things that they did know. I mean, they were aware of, like the magazines he got in the mail. They were aware of different things because, you know, after he was done with the magazines, he would lay them in on my older brother's bed, you know, gave them to the boys. So he was very, like... entitled, you know, as a male. That was just what males did. This is who they were. So my brothers, you know, he... he tremendously impacted their purity at a young age. And they knew some of the things, but a lot of the things that he did toward us younger girls, we just didn't talk about, not even really that much to each other, nor to my mom. It was kind of something that you just didn't want to talk about because it was hard. And subjects like that in the Amish culture, you don't hear anyone talking about sexual things. They're just like a, yeah, a silent subject. Especially in the community that I grew up in that era... you didn't get taught any of that in school, you know, there was no sex ed classes in school. So there was just a lot of silence on the subject. So I remember, you know, several years after my parents had separated, I was talking to one of my brothers and sharing about the showering and he was just horrified. He was like, you know, he remembers me asking him if he could hang out in the hallway while I'm showering. And he remember just like being like, "Okay, what's wrong with her?" you know, "She's acting strange," you know? But he did and he would do that for me if I asked him. But I guess I always just assumed he knew why I was asking him, and he didn't. That's just how less we talked about it at the time. Now, today, and even, like, you know, by the time I was 17-18 years old, all of that stuff was definitely discussed and very openly talked about. At the time it was just a silent subject, yeah. MIKE: Well, a lot of people, myself included, have or had a perception of the Amish community, of being peaceful. They're living life the way it should be. There's wonderful families and communities. And so our listeners know, I've been to James Port where Laura lives, and you guys have kind of educated me that that's not quite the situation. So is there a lot of sexual abuse... immorality in the Amish community? LAURA: There is, there definitely is. And it greatly saddens me because of how that subject is not discussed. It's not taught. It's not addressed. There's, you know, a lot of young kids, you know, things happen between kids, and adults view it as, "Oh, it's just kids doing things." And that's not just kids doing things, you know? I don't know as far as, like the ratio of, you know, the difference between the Amish culture and the so-called English culture - [laughs] MIKE: [laughs] LAURA: - you know, that if you do statistically the difference between the two. But I would say in the Amish culture there is more, from my personal opinion. For the mere fact that A: it is hidden. Few people bring it to the light, talk about it, actually find healing. And it's, like... the Amish community is a really close knit community. So if one person finds it out, like everyone knows, a large part of the time. So it's something that a lot of shame and fear and just complete terror is associated with, so you don't want anyone to know about it. So it's better just stay silent and shove it to the back of your mind and forget that it exists. MIKE: Mmm. LAURA: So that's definitely, like, a lot of times when, like, instances do come up that you catch, you know, little snippets here or there, that you know something may not be quite right. Or something may have happened, but you never know, like, full details, or people don't just openly talk about it or share, you know, that "Hey, I was sexually abused, and this happened, and this is how I found healing." Those conversations would not be a part of the life and Amish community in James Port where I lived. It's more of a yeah, definitely a very shameful thing that hidden scraped under the rug, you know, covered it up. MIKE: Well, the official numbers are that one out of every four women have been abused or molested and one out of every six men have been abused. But those, those are the official numbers. That doesn't even include all those that had even reported it. So the real numbers are - LAURA: Exactly. MIKE: - probably much higher. So was your family going to church when all this was going on? LAURA: Oh yes, yes. We were in church every Sunday that there was church. My dad was actually looked up as a respected person of the community, at one point, a lot. I think as the years went by, more people... he might have happened to show his anger at the wrong time, and more people got to know that there was definitely, maybe some issues, you know, happening in the background. But there was... like, when we left, when my mom and dad separated, we actually - my dad left for work, and my mom and my brother, me and my sister, we just loaded up in the car and left and left him a note. That's how we separated because that's... we just left. And at that point, you know, I think a lot of people were shocked. And still today there's people in the community that they don't know the full story, you know, they don't know what all happened and they would still view us as being wrong. For having just left because my dad was, I mean, in public, he was a jolly person, he was funny, you know. Still today I hear a comment, you know, oh, you know, his laugh or they so enjoyed talking with my dad or something my dad said or, you know, whatever. And there's still a lot of people today that would not, yeah, would not know the real Jake as I knew him growing up. MIKE: And part of the reason on this program I have people who come on and share stories of being molested, like you've been willing to do, Laura, is because a lot of this gets repressed in the family system, and then people grow up thinking, "I'm the only one that's gone through this," and it's far from the truth. LAURA: Yeah. MIKE: So how did you unwind the idea that men are basically scumbag pervs? [laughs] LAURA: Umm... [laughs] That's a big question, Mike. Do you have a couple hours? [laughs] First of all, my brothers were pivotal in that. I mean, obviously God was in the background, you know, orchestrating all of this, but my brothers played a huge part because they treated me differently than from what my dad did. They cared about me. They were, you know, never sexually... toward me in any form. They advocated for me, did things for me, they loved me, they looked out for me. They, you know, were there. They were vibrant in my life and I could trust them completely. So that was huge. And, like, to hear they might be hanging out with guy friends or they might be hanging out with people. Like, if they were comfortable with them, I was comfortable with them a lot of times. Like, who they liked, I liked because I knew that they they had grown up with the same dad as I did. So that that was huge for me. Definitely my brother's impacting me. And also you know, as I became a Christian in later years, recognizing that there are a lot of men out there who have a heart for God. And, you know, as I started sharing my story, little bits here and there, you know, I barely wouldn't say much, you know, because I'd still be scared. But people's reaction, like men's reaction, the same like, "Wow!" like, "That is so wrong!" Or, you know, like, "That's awful!" And recognizing like, "Oh, they would think it's wrong to do this?" You know, "They wouldn't think that's okay?" You know, "That's not just how males are?" So those are probably the two biggest aspects of, yeah, my brothers, and then, like, hearing other males react to parts of my story - MIKE: Mmm. LAURA: - was huge. MIKE: So when I first met you was in 2018 when I led a wive's retreat in Colorado. So, you and seven or eight other women. So I'm wondering what was going through your mind when you're going to a wive's retreat that a man is leading [chuckles] with your background. LAURA: [laughs] Well, I definitely... I was... most of the reason why I went to the retreat was because I needed to get away from my husband. I was losing my mind, it felt like, and I was just desperate to get away. And my friend invited me and I was like, "Hey, let's go. Who cares?" But when I showed up there and I met you and I realized like, "Whoa, like I'm spending the weekend at a retreat that's being led by this male." And it was... yeah, there was thoughts in my mind, definitely, of like "Who are you?" Like, "Why would you do this?" You know, yeah. "What type of person are you?" And then that first evening we were broke up in groups to share a story, and you just happened to be in my group. And you shared your story, and that... yeah. That instantly, I... through hearing your perception and seeing your love for purity and calling things out for what they were to be wrong. You know, speaking the truth over subjects, not just brushing them under the rug, or making them sound better than what they were. Yeah, you gained a lot of respect for me that first evening and I continued to go on that. MIKE: Well, we've got several minutes left, and so I'm wondering what your healing journey... Can you give us a point or two on what that has looked like? Because that was a lot of damage to recover from. LAURA: That was a lot. In a lot of different areas, you know. A lot of small things that I even today, sometimes something strikes me and I'm like, "Wow," like, yeah, "I didn't recognize that until today." Probably the biggest, obviously the biggest thing was becoming a Christian and having God, like, the Holy Spirit, to walk me through those things. And I did a lot of counseling... have done a lot of counseling. And my siblings. My siblings have been pivotal in my life. And, like, we can sit together and we can talk openly and honestly about our childhood and connect and, like, just talk about the hard stuff. You know, the disturbing stuff that's really hard to talk to other people about openly. We do that with each other. We're not afraid to go there and to talk. We can talk about anything. And that has been majorly healing to have people who understand what it was like, and being able to just share and talk and not people freaking out about what all happened. Yeah. MIKE: And at what age did you become a believer? LAURA: I was 20 years old when I first... Yeah. I happened to go to church, which is kind of a crazy thing because I hadn't been in church for a long time, because all of this, really, I was really bitter toward God. MIKE: Mmm. LAURA: I was. I just had the mindset of "If there is a God and he would allow me to live like this, you know, for close to 17 years, then I don't want anything to do with him," you know. If he... yeah. MIKE: Hmm. LAURA: You know, people would tell me, you know, "God's good," or, you know, I would hear things like that and I'd be like,"Yeah, whatever." I would mock Christians and mock people who believed in Him because to me it was like, "How could he turn a blind eye while we suffered all those years?" I mean, just day after day of complete agony and darkness and just horribleness. I mean, just complete terror and fear, and... yeah. It was awful. MIKE: My friends [clears throat] we're going to continue this conversation with Laura next week, so I would encourage you to join us. And Laura, thank you so much for your honesty and transparency, and I look forward to seeing you next time. ANNOUNCER: Blazing Grace is a nonprofit international ministry for the sexually broken and the spouse. Please visit us at blazinggrace.org for information on Mike Genung's books, groups, counseling, or to have Mike speak at your organization. You can email us at e-mail@blazinggrace.org, or call our office in Chandler, AZ at (719) 888-5144. Again, visit us at blazinggrace.org, email us at email@blazinggrace.org or call the office at (719) 888-5144.
Borys talks with Laura Kremer, an ecommerce consultant, about the interesting challenge why customers and agencies need support of 3rd party consultants. Listen to learn how to do it right and what are benefits for the customer and the agency. Borys We we can start with the with the break hello everybody I usually say we have a special guest but today we have a special guest Lara Kramer it it. is a special hour because we not often have women on podcasts. Yeah. Borys Everything about shopware usually is about guys men discussing about agencies implementations and so on and so on So I'm super happy that you are that you are here. You also work as a freelancer and a consultant. So I think we we might have an interesting topic for for everybody. But I think will be great if you could introduce yourself and say few words, What? exactly you do. Laura Yeah, thank you Boris for inviting me and you're so right there are unfortunately and not so many women and ecommerce. Um, so I'm trying to represent today some woman in tech and Nice to meet you all? Um I'm the founder and Ceo of canlu gi biha based in Germany and um, while trying to explain what I'm doing on one hand I'm working as a consultant ecommerce Laura I'm advising B Two C and B Two B companies within yeah questions like what kind of shop systems should they use what questions do they have for within ecommerce or within ecommerce landscapes. And on the other hand I'm working as kind of a matchmaker Um, between those companies or clients and suitable um solution for wires. This could be agencies freelances Tech solutions. Everything like that. Borys - Okay, okay, so so ah, if we look at the typical market. There are agencies. Yeah, who are providing a different type of Services. So How do you see the role of an external consultant like you. You know what are the advantages I Assume for the customer to have an external consultant when someone decides to go with with the implementation shopware or if someone is looking for ah ah for the ecommerce platform. What's better in having consultant versus just going and asking you know 5 different agencies. Laura Yeah that's a very good question I think it has benefits for both of them. Um, for me personally I work very independent means I'm using my knowledge or I gain knowledge within the agency side client side and also within. Shopper itself. So um, yeah I'm using all this knowledge from Eight plus years within ecommerce to advice clients. Um independently maybe choosing the right shop system like shopware or maybe a our solution. Whatever fits to their needs and um it could also be a great benefit for agencies because I see myself and um or I like working very close with agencies means I'm maybe a pre-part before their work begins I'm clarifying strategies. Laura - I'm helping the client be or to have a more clear vision of what they are needing creating the briefing together and then I can yeah create a perfect match between those requirements and agency who fits very well. Laura - The client and I think so it has benefits for both sides. Borys - Yeah, and I see more in the more in general consultants on the market. Yeah why? Why do you think it happens why there is a demand on the market for those type of services or it's more. There is enough knowledge enough skilled people. So they decide to become ah become a consultant. Laura - Yeah,, that's a good Question. We have a lot of consultants. That's true I Think on one hand we really have great people on the market so they gained experience maybe On. Merchant side or they decided to become self-employed after working for a tech solution Provider. Um, and normally I think there's enough space for all of us on the table and um I Also think could be. Laura - It's not possible to advise clients within all specific topics within ecommerce because if we are looking at ah ecommerce and total you could advise within strategy within maybe Marketplaces or afterwards performance Marketing. Whatever is. Is needed on client side and so yeah, we have a lot of and consultants. Um I forgot the question forgot what I asking. Borys - Okay, we we can cut we can cut at the cut up to this point. Okay, 2 seconds break you set. Um you work also as a matchmaker. Yeah, ah between agencies and service providers. Um, and of course the customer. So how does it work this this matchmaker. Laura - Yeah, so um, within my experience. So I said I started 2016 in ecommerce and I first started in a big agency and after that I worked on software manufacturer side and later on on merchant site. So what I recognize within this years that there's um, there has to be a great fit between all of those parties means um the the softwares of course has to ah fit for the customer requirements while the custom has served. Laura - Should know what exactly he wants to implement and um, the perfect fit between the implementing service provider and the client is also crucial. So we have three parties. Um who and needs to work together and um, what I experienced within all those years were that. Laura - A lot of projects failed because there was not fit between those three parties so in my new role I now try to help all of those three sides um means I sit down to the client I specify the requirements. Laura - Um I have them find the right system and do this clear. Um, let me say this clear strategyy. Um I can then find a suitable system or take solution for their Needs. Um. And now the next factor will be who is able to implement this solution. So here I'm using my network of strategic partners and which can be agencies Freelancers Software solutions that I recommend those people I recommend to the clients. And had them find the right partner in cases on budget in cases of specific needs. Um, yeah, and that's that's what I'm doing. Borys - Ah, so from so from that point a typical agency would focus on just selling. Yeah, whatever they want to sell um and if the customer has you as ah as a matchmaker. Borys - It's easier to find out. You know what are the real expectation and what is the best fit here because there's also a challenge of the agencies Sometimes when I talk to customers. They also get confused. Yeah, they have like I met so many agencies everyone is saying something different I cannot. I Don't know what to do? Yeah, it's ah I cannot make myself a good judgment and a good selection of the of the agency. Laura - True and I think that's that's quite normal once a 1 hand our the whole topic. Our language everything we both are doing is so complicated I mean it's such a specific field of. Yeah, things we are doing and we are talking in our own language. So I think that's the first problem people just visiting websites of agencies asking them themselves like what what the hell they are doing. You don't get it and um, yeah. Laura - I Um I had the chance to work with a lot of agencies to really visit them on site to see how they work to talk to their clients and that's exactly the way I'm choosing somehow my partners to see what can what are they able to offer because. Laura - And know agencies. They are so good in um, in creating B Two B Ecommerce Landscapes or to to um to help clients with um I don't know hosting problems. Whatever. And I think it's it's crucial to really match those two sides. Borys - And would you agree? Ah that in general e-commerce became way more complicated, especially if you look at the implementation. Ah that there are so many different expectations. So many different platforms. Ah. And new technologies and so on everything is changing also so fast then the need for a customer it would be or it is very hard to to really evaluate it. So then in this way, your service is ah is necessary or in general a service of consultant who is. More experience to it for many many years and as you mentioned have a great connection to really be able to evaluate the differences between agencies becomes like a necessity for for a lot of customers. Laura - Exactly you know everything is changing so fast. Um, think it's um or let me say I see myself. Um or it's necessary that you say like this. It's necessary that i'm. Um, informed I'm I'm really reading all the time about everything in ecommerce. So um I think we cannot expect our clients or merchants to overlook all those specific topics within ecommerce There's so much as you said was. From strategy to social commerce performance marketing. Whatever is within the whole complex of building up a store and having ah clients recognizing the store and having all the third -party systems integrated. Um so I think it's. Helpful to ask consultants for help and also to find good implementation. Partners um, really fit with the yeah specific um requirements you have as a maybe b two b company. Laura - As that startup as an Enterprise company. Whatever is um, your challenge. Borys- Okay, so I have I have a tough question then because if you work with many different agencies then what makes a good e-commerce agency. Ah what are from your perspective those those factors. Laura - Um, will. Borys - Some agencies are good in doing something. Ah, and also if the client should should only rely on um on the on the on the agency or maybe there are There are also memory Experience. Um. Freelancers that could do the job and you don't really need to to hire a full like agency with all all this type of different people. Laura - Yeah, have just smile right now because I I get asked this question so often of course and now. Yeah. Borys - I will not ask for the names here. Yeah, which probably would be tempting. Um Ata let's not so let's not ask for a good a ecommerce says a name people can come to you and ask it. Ah ask it directly. But in general if you if you see how do you see those agencies here comparing them. What kind of factors or what kind of specific differentiators say make the agency as ah as a good agency commerce agency. Laura - Yeah I think to answer the first question it always depends I know clients hate is answered and like you know, true. No, but. Borys - Yes, you are consultants. Yes, yes you all you you have to answer this wait. Laura - Um, what I wanted to say is that normally when starting to work with clients I Always get a lot of restrict answers on these questions I have clients who made maybe bad experiences with agencies and or an agency and then afterwards they are so. Laura - Sorry to say they're so pissed they they they are coming to me telling me like I would never work with an agency again same with freeances. Um I think both of course has pro and cons if you have an agency or let me be very clear I think when it comes to complex. Laura - Maybe complex b two b scenarios big big projects I think it would tend to recommend an agency with a project manager an agency who did that like 100 times while on the other hand freelancers are super flexible. They are not coming with this. Laura - Project management overhead they they are in my experience they are. There are a lot of very good experts being very very good in their specific field. But. Laura - Nevertheless and if you're choosing an agency or a freelancer I think it's very very important that um that they are very transparent about the processes Very honest and um, asking questions in advance I Think that's. Laura - It's still a people business you you are working with people and as I said our topic is so complicated if you're not able to um to explain to your customer. What are you doing and why is that so. Laura - And most cases so expensive what you're doing there. Um that you get a real problem. We have customers who really want to be informed all the time they want to see and which stage is my project. What is going on or going on who is responsible for my project. Laura - And you're also experienced customers saying I don't care but that's your topic Just do it I Want to be informed when it's ready and um, this is also a very good factor to match agencies and clients who's able to do it. Borys - Yeah, yeah, true when you when you present it this way that it looks it looks like you know there is a big big space. Yeah in the future also for ah, for such a role as a consultant. Especially that the the systems and the implementations will not get easier in the future. Yeah, they will even become more complicated. We'll have like ah composable commerce. Ah some Mark Mach architectures and so on so it will be even way harder to. To choose the right agency and and find the right. You know the right right? right person for that. So when you when you also work with the agencies. Then? how do you try to identify an agency as you mentioned you visit them, you talk to them you have like ah ah your like. Preset of questions a list or how does this type of interview if we could call it interview looks like. Laura - Exactly so the core of agencies of freeances and Rica um, um yeah I'm just giving a recommendation to my clients I really worked with them in the last eight years so I had project with them. That's. Laura - Of course the best factor because then I was kind of their clients too. I can really tell something about their um, kind of work but of course on the other hand I could not work with like 10 plus agencies. What I do is I have a set of questions. So I'm really, it's it's like an interview I'm I'm having video calls then I'm visiting them on site. Really I'm I'm there for full day watching how they work what is this setup. How do they approach clients and then on the other side I'm really talking to the clients. Laura - Um, asking them and in the best cases those agencies were also recommended to me by maybe also other agencies or freelances work there before um and if I get a good gut feeling I'm I'm totally honest with you. Um. Laura - And I'm um, yeah, then I think then I can recommend them trying to have first projects to really work with them to see how they proceed. Um, but it's a crucial fact I think all consultants know that your your acting with with your name. Laura - So I'm giving recommendations I'm really strict about my strategic partners I don't have to tell you how many people writing me with the like Violin that maybe telling me like maybe you can recommend us and yeah, yeah, we will pay you. Borys - Yeah I can imagine that. Yeah. Laura - X Eelon Thousand Euro And even if it sounds a bit romantic I will never do it because I really have the my goal is to really advise my clients I mean. Borys - Of course, yeah, but this is also also your brand because yeah, if you if you work this way then it's a huge responsibility because if project doesn't go goods. Yeah, then. The customer is not coming to the agency as a first line but. We come to you and say lauraa you recommended those guys and they completely. Yeah they are and they are not a good fi yeah so it's it's a huge It's a huge responsibility on your side also doing a right type of choice. Yeah. Laura - Yeah, right I think it's necessary that they that they trust you if um, if a client or someone's approaching me didn't get the feeling that I'm really looking for the best solution or really, um. Laura - Can offer a wide range of experts. Then there is no no way to work together. Of course. Borys - Yeah, and if you work with some projects as a consultant. Um, do you see like a typical scenarios for hiring a consultant are a certain project more I don't Know. Have more you know predisposition to get ah to to need to need a consultant or you see that there's completely while different ranges of ah of projects that you are working on and and it's more a matter of the of the customer. Yeah who is. Borys - Ah, enough advanced to be able to say hey I need the help with this. Laura - Yeah, very very good question I think of course of course it depends on how um, how much knowledge you have with an ecommerce. It's easier for people who are maybe have an enough experience with any ecommerce. But. Laura - Um, no, there are typical scenarios. Um, mostly when they have the feeling that the whole ecommerce system or processes are kind of stuck they feel like maybe they and there would be um there there are some um possibilities to really. Laura - I Have more conversion maybe within the store or um, yeah, they often ask for them for shop audits to really see what's the status quo. Um, what kind of systems we are using. Um, maybe we can refresh them and another example would be. Laura - If they are using um, kind of a shop system and not quite sure if this is still the best solution for them. So when it comes to yeah migration projects. Um, they are often asking for. Um, yeah. Laura - Experience with other customers. Um, or they have questions like how how much time will it need how about data data management or data migration within all those projects. Um, yeah I would say that those are. Laura - To be go to be good questions. Borys - Okay, yeah, but it also requires you know on the other hand if the customer knows or he's ready doesn't have a problem with asking for help then usually that's that's a very good.. That's a very good symptom. Yeah, um. Ah, for you but also for the agency and for the project Overrolia then it means that someone is really open would like to do it right? Yeah instead of being stubborn and like I know how to do the project and then there is a big big Thing. So is there anything in common with this customers. Do see some some some common think with the customers who are ready mature enough to ask for a consultant help. Laura - Um, yeah I think that changed over the years Um, years ago they were um, it was a bit challenging to really advise them because I had a lot of. Laura - Me personally I and a lot of customers were very strict and their opinions were not that open right now I have a lot of clients being very honest, very honest and with the situation opening up telling me like I have the feeling. Laura I cannot overlook the whole ecommerce options we are having. So um I'm relying on you and your expertise your your market view. Um, Nevertheless if it's if it's woman man what kind of ages. Laura - They are getting them more open nowadays. Borys - Yeah, okay, and um, because yet for an agency this is or this could be a kind of you know competition or or kind of threat. Yeah. Have a consultant who sometimes not allow agency to do stupid stupid things. So how do you approach you know an agency in such case. Yeah, that to the agency see that there is ah some smart Third -party yeah within all the process who knows what's going on. Um, who can explain many things so how agencies react when they see that there is a customer with the with the consultants. Do they do they take it as a kind of competition threat ah or or they or they like appreciate this. Ah. Ah, the situation that there is someone someone who can also explain the customer you know some that some of the expectations are completely. Yeah useless or there are some other ways to to achieve it. What are your experiences with the agency approach to you with in the project. Laura - I had agencies in the beginning who were very concerned about me being a third party as you said and because they thought I'm going to be in competition for them on while talking to them. We could experience that or clarify. Laura - And I'm more like an I think additional puzzle piece' I'm I'm even helpful I will say because um I think um, it's easier also for the agency if um, they are talking to a to a customer a potential customer who's. Laura - Pre-informed who already talk to someone could ask their questions so they are kind of more clear within their goals. They are bringing for the new system for the the solution they want to have and um yeah I'm kind of the lawyer. Maybe for the client because. Laura - And normally really if I do this matchmaking thing I'm um, always within the first calls. So I'm bringing them together and sometimes and that's what agencies don't like I'm of course also advising them when it comes to the offer. Borys p You know? so you you verify the cost and say oh no, no this is too much. Yeah, and then they then they don't like you they're like oh no. Laura - From the ancient one and they are offering him. Um, yeah I would say sometimes then we have kind of discussions. Let me say like that. But no normally a. Laura - As I said I know the agencies I know the price range they are operating in and I would never recommend them if I know that it's way over the budget of of my client. But yeah, um, right Now. Um I have very good connection to those agencies. Really appreciating it I think we could. We can be very clear.. There are not only agencies within 50 plus employees. So Some of them are built from people being super super intelligent being technical experts. Laura - But maybe they're not so much into sales So that's I think that's a good add on to have a consultant who leads potential customers to your agency If that's a good fit. Borys - So. Yeah, true I mean I agree with you looking from agency perspective to wars type of customer if I could say so yeah is the customer that doesn't have the knowledge and experience. Yeah, because then. You really have to on 1 side spend a lot of time explaining the basis. Yeah, or sometimes yeah it would be so nice to have someone within an experience on the customer side to explain him. Okay, this is how we do the integration. Yeah, it's not like our idea. But this is how in general it should be done that it's ah that it's working properly and if the customer has no experience. No clue then then let's call it like a third -party an independent third party. Ah, who could so. Ah, in some way focus on the the project goals and explain the customer hey it isn't a good idea and the agency is right? Yeah that's how it should be done in many cases I think would help agencies to. Borys - Solve the problem with how to say a tough customers or or or a complex project for for the customer who doesn't have the the experience. So from my point I Absolutely agree with you. It's ah. For the agency. It's It's a very convenient situation yet that there is someone um, smart who can help customer understand the project who can explain something as being more more trusted. Yeah than an agency where there's always some kind of. Ah, low. Trust that Okay, the agency is trying to sell me more things. Yeah or they're trying to to to convince me to do something which um I might not necessarily need but it will be good for agency because they can charge more for some services. Laura - Yes I think they get customers on the silver tray because um I'm not only bringing customers. Okay, bringing customer sounds like yam I'm just giving leads but I guide customers to those agencies with a finished briefing so they know. Laura - We know how it is normally you're just really talking one on 2 times with the customer just to really clarify what they maybe want to have and know how it works I have customers approaching me and telling me like I have thirty k budget. Laura - And my marketing agency said I will now need magenta 2 and then I'm like okay maybe we let's start. Let's start from the beginning so you know where it works and and if this work is done and you really um. Laura - You can really give some insights to the to the customer and help them to to get a clearer view on the whole system I think then the agency can really concentrate to show their skills to show what they can offer to bring the solution to the customer. Borys - Yeah, and do you see also looking at the market that there is more and more knowledgeable people on the customer side. Um, because at least what I see is like looking at at least few years back um, in many cases we as an agency start to see the difference. Yeah, that ah, there is more people with the experience on the market in the and in general um like more people understanding. For example. What it means that we are doing an agile project people with with some experience. So overall, the situation is ah is ah is better even though it's not easier. Yeah, because the the overall complexity of the systems is ah is higher. But do you see that the customers are havinging more and more. People with with some experiences and the whole discussions are becoming a little bit easier. Laura - Yeah, totally agree. So I have customers who are calling me being very um, pre-informed so they know sometimes they are telling me like we Ah, we decided to go with this shop system and in. Laura - Right now in a lot of cases I can really agree on their decisions and it's more like really going in detail just um, yeah, guiding them through maybe like third party or the whole the whole project. How can it look to really um, really create the whole project for them. Laura - Um, but let me be honest I don't know why maybe it is because the shop there at the I'm also talking about this. Um, maybe it's it's because the the shop solution providers or the tech providers. Um, getting more information or they they are providing more information which is easy to consume. Um I think we have a lot of media. Um, also Linkedin is of course a big information platform for a lot of people. Borys - Yeah, for sure. Yeah there's there's there's small knowledge of course on the other hand if we can imagine even today. Ah yeah, as we are ah probably there are hundreds if not thousands of projects just happening today. Yeah so. So every new project every new day during the implementation that's ah, that's the knowledge that some people are getting it from from what's going on on the progress and so on. So for sure. It's ah it's also it's also that the market is becoming more mature and have and have those experiences. Yeah. If you would look few years back. Not so many people had any experiences about ecommerce implementation now if there's so many shops online someone did this job and some some experiences has been has been achieved. Borys And yeah, and looking also on the on this consultants. Let's say markets. Do you see like more and more consultants. Um, if you look at Linkedin or some some some other some other location by the way like how people find Julia how how does it work people like just going to Google and try to look like. Ah, good consultants to implement shopware um shop. How do they find you. Laura - Yeah, more. Um I think I'm very thankful for a broad network I'm just I have a lot of people within an ecommerce. So this. A lot of them. There are a lot of clients coming through word of mouth and still but I'm also trying to put my face in every situation posting myself on Linkedin. So it's just so ah, an important challenge it a channel for me and um I don't like it. Laura - I don't like saying that but still as you said in the beginning. It's kind of special that I'm a female consultant with an ecommerce especially in Germany. Um, right now I experience you know we both. Laura - Work for shopping united I'm allowed to see or to visit a lot of european cities and meet people from the ecommerce field and especially when it comes to the Netherlands or Uk I meet a lot of amazing woman working Mecommerce and I feel. Laura - It's not I don't know why Germany is not that there are not so many women. So um, ah yeah I would never say I feel like how can I say it I feel like um. Mistreated or something I think it's exactly the other way around. It's it's ah if you are smart if you're really interested interested in your topic and you can help clients then it could be even an advantage to be a woman to be a bit more special maybe in the german market. Laura That sounds a bit weird. But I think you know what I mean and. Borys - Yeah I know I mean still if you look at so I believe there is a lot of like women in ecommerce but not necessarily in E-commerce technology. Ah so if you look at ah, most of the fashion shops a lot of of people working there as ah, product owners. Yeah, Or. Or or or working with performance with some campaigns that would be women but you're right if you look at purely technology if you look at the the systems implementations. Ah, that's yeah, That's ah more this I part there is there. There is less woman there. That's that's that's true. And it brings a lot of like you know diversity because I think yeah you you would have probably a little bit different opinion and it would be very valuable think that if there is ah a male team on the customer side and the mail team on the agency side and and. And a new in between that you can have a completely different view completely different. You know, um, experiences to share. So Overall the project value will be way way better. Laura - Yeah I think to sum up my superpower and this is that I'm I think I didn't mention I'm I'm not a deaf I didn't delearn I'm I'm not from the technical side. So originally I did my master within marketing communications. Borys - Okay, yeah. Laura - And I'm very honest and transparent about this fact I got when I entered the Ecommerce market or the ecommerce topics I felt so lost in the beginning and I'm I'm always very honest about that because I think that brings me closer to my clients. Borys - Okay, thank you. Laura - I know how it feels to be within all those specific you know words and situations and every time back then in 2016 when I every time I saw it now I got it the whole system changed so it was like constantly learning. Laura - And um, yeah to um I think the best factor is that I'm I'm able to talk within or the the tech language and I'm also able to talk to explain that to clients in a very non-technical way This um. Borys - Yeah, that's that's that's also a great great experience. Yeah, but ah summarizing it as you mentioned I think as me being a kind of a third party in this case. Yeah I truly believe that having ah an external consultant. Ah. Borys - Who can help customer make some decisions. Ah, who's also helping agency because it's ah it's explaining. Yeah, it's more trusted trusted site in the project explaining customer. Why for example, some test needs to be done and why they need to allocate some budget for. Some quality testing or some some some other type of Testium or most customers says like why would you do any tests So I truly believe in it that a role of role of consultant is is super important I Also truly believe that. It's also the it will grow a lot. Yeah because the the overall ecosystem will become more and the more more and more complex and people with experience who are ready to share who are ready and have this you know, ah, kind of skills to cooperate with. The customer with the agency and help help to make the project Successful. It's also it's also super super important Laurra So Great to have you here I think it's It's a very interesting perspective here for um, for shopper community Also to be aware that. Such a role as a consultant exists and ah it can help with the with the implementation and I think yeah I keep my finger crossed and wish you a good project at good Agencies. You know for the cooperation and and all the success. Laura - Thank you Boris and thank you for inviting me to this podcast.
Today I'm talking with Dr. Scott Griffiths. Scott is a senior lecturer in the School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne. He leads the Physical Appearance Research Team, a multidisciplinary group of researchers and health professionals who investigate body image, appearance related stigmas and discrimination, appearance enhancing substances, appearance enhancement and appearance related psychological disorders such as eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorder.I wanted to talk to Scott about the phenomenon of muscle dysmorphia, a disorder that sits somewhere between a body dysmorphic disorder and an eating disorder that tends to impact cis boys and men. It's sometimes characterised as the male anorexia. Of course cis boys and men get anorexia too, but muscle dysmorphia is a bit different. It's sometimes known as Bigorexia. It's when an individual doesn't believe that they're big enough or sufficiently muscular to the point that they devote their lives to gains and progress in the gym. They might follow extremely strict diets which prioritise protein and cut out a lot of carbohydrates, and in some cases men can turn to using anabolic steroids, which have some really serious long-term effects for both physical and mental health as you'll hear us talking about. A lot of Scott's research is about the ways that social media, and particularly TikTok feeds people who are vulnerable to eating disorders or muscle dysmorphia, more and more content that upholds unrealistic body and image based ideals, and actually fuels eating disorders.It's really interesting research to hear about, but as a parent and as someone who works with eating disorders, it's really terrifying.Find out more about Scott's work here.Follow his work on Twitter here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Scott: When you're on your feed and TikTok is delivering videos for you to consume, all of the reference points you are getting from content that it's popular and influential and that people are responding to it. It's so divorced from reality that you've got a greater pool of people comparing and feeling poorly about themselves and now investing in the general necessity of looking better.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to Can I Have Another Snack? I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet, registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. We're having conversations about how we nourish ourselves and our kids in all senses of the word in the hellscape that is diet culture.Today I'm talking with Dr. Scott Griffiths. Scott is a senior lecturer in the School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne. He leads the Physical Appearance Research Team, a multidisciplinary group of researchers and health professionals who investigate body image, appearance related stigmas and discrimination, appearance enhancing substances, appearance enhancement and appearance related psychological disorders such as eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorder.I wanted to talk to Scott about the phenomenon of muscle dysmorphia, a disorder that sits somewhere between a body dysmorphic disorder and an eating disorder that tends to impact cis boys and men. It's sometimes characterized as the male anorexia, which of course cis boys and men get anorexia too. But muscle dysmorphia is a bit different. It's sometimes known as bigorexia. It's when an individual doesn't believe that they're big enough or sufficiently muscular to the point that they devote their lives to gains and progress in the gym. They might follow extremely strict diets which prioritize protein and cut out a lot of carbohydrates. And in some cases men can turn to using anabolic steroids, which have some really serious long-term effects for both physical and mental health as you'll hear us talking about. A lot of Scott's research is about the ways that social media, and particularly TikTok feeds people who are vulnerable to eating disorders or muscle dysmorphia, more and more content that upholds unrealistic body and image based ideals and actually fuels eating disorders.It's really interesting research to hear about, but as a parent and as someone who works with eating disorders, it's. Really terrifying. So you'll notice that this episode has a slightly different vibe to some of the other episodes this season. I'm asking Scott more about his research on muscle dysmorphia rather than his, you know, personal story. And I'm curious to hear what you think of this episode and get some feedback from you as to whether you'd like more interviews with academics, researchers and practitioners with a particular kind of expertise or on a particular topic like this, in addition to hearing people's lived experience. So if you want, you can drop me a comment over on Substack underneath this episode, um, which you can find at laurathomas.substack.com.And while I have you here, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely listener and reader supported, but in order to be able to cover the costs of admin and people and pay guests and contributors. A lot of my time is devoted to other work outside of the newsletter. That means I have less time to bring deeply researched essays as well as thoughtful interviews here on the podcast. I'd love to be able to devote most of my time to the work and the community that we're building here, but that means I need a lot more of you to consider becoming a paid subscriber. I also know that that's a big ask right now. So for the month of March, I'm running a one off spring sale on Can I Have another Snack subscriptions. They are 20% off, so for this month only, if you subscribe, you'll pay four pounds a month or 40 pounds for the year instead of five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year, which is a bargain. I'm not going to be running this good a deal for the rest of the year, so now is the time to cash in. If you've been sitting on the fence it's time to make a move. I'll put a subscription link in the show notes. You can also gift a subscription to a friend or family member or a coworker and get that same deal. And remember that if you want to sign up with some pals or like your NCT group from five years ago, you always get 20% off of group subscriptions. So I will also link to group subscriptions in the show notes.Okay, team, I appreciate your support and hopefully one day we can make this work more sustainable, so I can give up my side hustles. Thank you so much for being here. Here is my interview with Scott Griffiths.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Scott, I would love it if you could start by telling us a little bit about how you got interested in studying appearance related psychological disorders like body dysmorphic disorder and eating disorders.Scott: When I was a teenager, I worked at a cinema and someone who worked there who was kind of a friend of mine, a young woman, she had anorexia, and I remember at the time being completely mystified by her ailment and predicament. And it's probably quite stigmatizing in retrospect because it seemed to me as a, you know, kind of a fool, that the solution to her problem was readily at hand.Like she was really thin and, and just needed to eat. And that kind of set my thinking in motion about the really complex feelings and beliefs that folks can have about their body and their eating, et cetera. And it was when I was in undergraduate doing a, a Bachelor of Psychology that I had a couple of friends, both young men who would say things to me that would remind me of that young woman who had anorexia in the cinema and things they would say were similar, but the manifestations of them were different. The kinds of eating and, and training and the bodies that they wanted for themselves were all different, but it's core, it seemed like the same kind of issue and disorder. So I think that was what got me interested. And it's developed a lot since then.Laura: Yeah, it's so interesting. I think you know that I work with people with eating disorders and something I often hear from them is like, well, it just, how misunderstood that the disorder is, and from the outside, especially to anyone who knows nothing about eating disorders, it seems like, yeah, it's really simple just to eat more food.But I think you've been on your own learning journey with that and, and come through the other side and realized it's, it's a lot more complicated than that. These people would, you know, if, if it was just, just as easy as eating food, they would do it. But unfortunately that's, that's not the case.Sorry, that was a little tangent cuz I think you were touching on something that I know is really important to those with lived experience of eating disorders. And then kind of moving further along, it's really interesting that you saw the parallels between anorexia nervosa and then what I think you would probably characterize as body dysmorphic disorder. Which is the same but different. And maybe the same is too much of a stretch. But it's similar, but also different. So I'm wondering for people who are unfamiliar with body dysmorphic disorder, can you tell us what exactly it is and maybe some of the, the des describing more of the parallels between something like anorexia nervosa or what we would consider to be a more traditional in inverted commas eating disorder versus what we see in the BDD presentation.Scott: When I was talking with those, those friends, those young men when I was at university the disorder that would best capture what was going on for them is something we call muscle dysmorphia, which is a subtype of body dysmorphia disorder, which kind of sits alongside eating disorders. They are distinct, but they're often comorbid.They both have body image often as a central element. So body dysmorphic disorder, the cardinal symptom is you believing there is a defect in your appearance. It can be completely imaginary or it can be real, but the severity of it in your head is almost always much more severe than it is in actual objective reality.And in the context of muscle dysmorphia, which many people, including myself, see more as an eating disorder than body dysmorphic disorder. The defect in appearance is guys, some girls, but often guys who objectively are, are very large and muscular, but when they look in the mirror, what they see reflected back to them is someone who is scrawny, out of shape or overweight.Just a big difference to how they actually are not at all dissimilar to anorexia where we have people, often young women predominantly, but also some men who look in the mirror and see someone reflected back to them who is very different to how they actually look.Laura: It's interesting that you said that you characterize muscle dysmorphic disorder as more similar to an eating disorder than to true body dysmorphic disorder, and I'm curious to hear a little bit more about why you feel like it fits more into that category.Scott: Yeah. To be fair, when people debate about whether muscle dysmorphia ought to be a body dysmorphic disorder as it currently is classified or an eating disorder, it feels a little bit like a semantic exercise.Laura: Absolutely.Scott: The real push and importance in research as far as I'm concerned, is trying to understand both disorders and develop better treatments and trying to figure out which, which category where there's so much overlap between these two categories already, it belongs to, feels a little like a moot point, but to, to answer the question. For me, it's because when you look at the central pathology that motivates folks with muscle dysmorphia, the low self-esteem, especially around appearance, the kinds of things they believe with respect to why they have to look a certain way in order to have worth and be loved.The attention given to dieting and to exercise and the inability to tolerate deviations from that, the need to constantly progress, the perfectionism, it's all there. It all feels like different sides of the same coin. And when I speak to people, including yourself and your audience, it feels to me like explaining away muscle dysmorphia as one manifestation of an eating disorder, kind of like anorexia, or the reverse of it is just an easy way to see how it is that eating disorders are so much more than just thinness, that they can manifest in all sorts of different ways depending on the types of bodies that people feel compelled to achieve for themselves.Laura: Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. And I'm, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about sort of, you know, maybe not with going with, without going into tons and tons of detail that might be upsetting to hear, but just tell us a little bit about, a bit more about you know, how would you know if someone had muscle dysmorphic disorder? You know, I'm thinking about parents who, you know, what are the signs and symptoms that someone might want to look out for that are sort of red flags, if you will.Scott: Got you. So, when you're trying to identify red flags, some muscle dysmorphia, a useful starting point is to recognize that almost everything that is common in muscle dysmorphia can exist and be benign. So you can train five, six days a week every day of the week if you want. And it's completely fine, as long as it's working for you.You can diet right, and it can be fine. Not a psychological disorder if it's working for you. It's not encouraging people to go and do it, but it's not a psychological disorder to do it in muscle dysmorphia. It's when there is a preoccupation and that preoccupation is causing impairment. So it could be that your training and dieting have become so strict that when you feel that your training or dieting are about to be compromised in some way, maybe there's an important social occasion that you have to attend, and it means that you don't get to stick to your diet or go to train or something unexpected comes up, and you have to prioritize that other important unexpected thing.If that brings you anxiety and guilt makes you angry at yourself, then you are in the territory of massive dysmorphia as opposed to just behaviors that are otherwise benign with respect to disorder.Laura: Yeah, so you're just highlighting here that you know, the behaviors in and of themselves are not pathological. You know, plenty of people go to the gym, you know, they are super careful with their diet. Where it runs into kind of hot water is when, you know, that becomes almost like all encompassing.It takes over your life. It doesn't allow for any flexibility. It becomes very rigid. You can't go to your mates birthday party or just like, go pick up a pizza after work because it's a mess. So that flexibility in eating, that flexibility in your social life, but also I suppose kind of the feelings of guilt, remorse, stress, that might come up if you do do those things.Scott: That's right. And the deteriorations tend to come from many places. They don't just come from one. So maybe you find that on the days where you have to rest where you can't be in gym training, cuz you've gotta have a couple of rest days to recover, you don't feel so good on those days. Maybe every time you don't progress in the gym, so you're not adding on to the weight, you're not getting stronger, it makes you feel like rubbish.Whereas when you first started out, maybe all of those things made you feel really good. Maybe your relationships are starting to suffer. Maybe your partner has had four or five conversations with you now about how they don't like how it's so challenging to go out to a restaurant, et cetera, etc.There's going to be no one thing, but the things tend to all come. Together. And what's challenging as you would well know in the eating disorder space is that the person who is in the thick of it is sometimes not the best judge of how extreme and rigid what they are doing is, and not uncommon at all to have folks who've come out the other end of these disorders look back and say, oh man, I can't believe I didn't see just how crazy it was for me at that.Laura: And that's a really important point, and I'd like to come back and think a little bit about how particularly a parent might address this or raise their concerns with you know, maybe their teen who they know is becoming super fixated on the gym and really rigid around that.Maybe we could come back to that because I feel I still wanna characterize a little bit more of what might be going on for people with muscle dysmorphic disorder. And a big piece that I feel like we haven't talked about yet is the use of anabolic steroids.So yeah, could you tell us how that and maybe any other kind of diet aids and things fit into the picture of muscle dysmorphic disorder?Scott: Yeah, sure. So, if you wanted to be thin and skinny and you were going to abuse drugs to get there, you might use laxatives and diuretics. If you wanna be big and muscular the drug that will typically be abused is anabolic steroids. So the most basic anabolic steroid is just a synthetic form of testosterone, the sex differentiating hormone that men tend to have more of than women, and it helps to synthesize muscle. So if you wanna be bigger muscular, if you've been influenced by, you know, famous fitness influencers, many of whom are using steroids, it may be something you're tempted to turn to and unlike with laxatives and diuretics, where if you take them, they don't have any substantive impact on the calories that you absorb (another way of saying they don't work very well). anabolic steroids, unfortunately do work very well. It's a bit of a public relations disaster, really.Laura: Can I just put a tiny caveat that for people who abuse laxatives and diuretics, in terms of, I just wanna highlight that they are still really dangerous and they can cause electrolyte imbalances. Just because I know people with eating disorders will listen to this podcast and I've worked with eating disorders for long enough to know that they will hear that and think, oh, okay, that means they're safeSo, I just want to highlight that it can cause problems in terms of your intestines. There can be problems with, I'm forgetting the terminology now, but basically twisting your intestines because it just messes with your digestion so much.I'm thinking about laxatives here, but also it can cause dangerously low electrolyte levels in the body, which can cause fits and seizures. So they're not benign, and I don't want anyone to walk away with the message that they're benign. But that's aside from what you're talking about, which is that yeah, you know that people with muscle dysmorphic disorder are more likely to abuse steroids.So, yeah. Could I pass it back to you now?Scott: Of course, and steroids on top of being effective, which makes them very attractive in terms of, you know, as a temptation they also have rather significant health consequences, especially in the long term. But why I bring up the fact that they are effective for building muscle into such a significant degree that you have outfits like the International Olympics Committee who test for doping.The use of things like steroids in sports is because once you're on them, you will experience the progress that you've been craving and to a very significant degree. So folks will get on them, they will put on a lot of muscle, they might even lose some body fat at the same time, which is incredibly challenging to do if you are not on these substances.And of course, they feel. for a time, but they still have the core beliefs and attitudes and thinking so that high doesn't last for very long. But now not only are they not satisfied with their current size often, but to drop in size by coming off would trigger the kinds of intense feelings and distorted thinking that you also see when folks with anorexia are going through recovery and are, you know, weight restoring.So it's incredibly challenging. And what ends up happening is that you have to then treat both the muscle dysmorphia, which is very much a psychological disorder, and the anabolic steroids and their effects, which is an endocrine impactor. And dealing with these in combos is challenging.Laura: And, I was just wondering if you could talk a little to the, the longer term side effects of of the steroid use.Scott: Sure. So the longer term side effects tend to focus on increased mortality and morbidity from, from cardiovascular events, heart attacks, enlarged hearts. The endocrine effects focus predominantly on the capacity of your endocrine system to resume a normal amount of testosterone production endogenously, so from within, subsequent to stopping steroid use.Because when you flood your system with anabolic steroids or synthetic testosterone, the reason men's testicles shrink is because most of the function of testicles is to make testosterone. So the body says, oh, I'm full of testosterone. Now I'm not gonna make any more myself. But when you doing the injections of the tablets and you don't have that testosterone coming in, the body has to restart that system from scratch. And as we've learned, it is not very reliable at doing that. And it is very unpredictable how well that is gonna happen. And there's many, many, many instances of men as young as 23, 24, who will be on testosterone replacement therapy for their entire life, and who have their fertility are greatly compromised now because their bodies have not resumed normal testosterone production.Laura: Yeah. What you're describing is really similar to what happens when once this women are taking the contraceptive pill and then they come off of it and they might not restart their period for five or six months after, hopefully all going well. But what you're talking about, I think in muscle dysmorphic disorder, where there's an abuse of these drugs that those, as I understand it, the doses are much higher than a typical physiological dose.And so the impact, the effect is much, much greater and could last a lot longer, you know, if function is ever fully regained.Scott: Yeah. To give you some context, a beginner's of anabolic steroids, a beginner steroid cycle, if you will, might prescribe something like 500 milligrams of testosterone enate, a really commonly available steroid. I'd wager a bet that it's most widely available in the UK, certainly is in Australia. That beginner's dose is already five times higher than the maximum that a healthy male would produce on their own. And that much testosterone, flooding a system is beyond the bounds of what the human body is used to dealing with. Laura: Yeah. And, and you mentioned you know, the UK context there and there were headlines a couple of years ago that suggested that first of all, that predominantly steroid users in the UK were were using steroids as an appearance or an aesthetic related, you know, for aesthetic reasons rather than for purely like bodybuilding lifting reasons.Although I, I can imagine those things get kind of murky to tease apart and. At that time, I think this was about 2018 the, the reports were that there were about a million steroid users in the UK for, you know, for aesthetic reasons. Is that an accurate reflection? Do you know? Like, is that likely an underestimation, an overestimation, or do we have any, any real sense of what's going on?Scott: I'd say there's a great chance that's an underestimate. Steroid use is incredibly stigmatized. It's heavily criminalized and users are extremely loath to admit even to health professionals that they use anabolic steroids. And you see these schisms even in fitness communities online. So Instagram, TikTok, where there's this constant accusations that someone is using steroids or is natural or bloody for short. So, it's all very underground and it means that whenever you do get an, an estimate based on data that is credible. So in Australia that would be visits to needle and syringe programs as one example, to get injecting equipment for steroids. You can be almost certain that that's just a fraction of what's actually going on out there. And all the evidence we have, at least in Australia suggests that anabolic steroid use is increasing in prevalence and it's gone from something that used to be the purview of just athletes through to professional weightlifters to now those only being a minority. It's very much an aesthetics driven thing.Laura: So tell us what we know about who Muscle Dysmorphic Disorder impacts. You've alluded to that it's mostly cis men. But can you elaborate any further on that?Scott: Sure. So itt's mostly cis men because cis men are the largest pool who would want to be muscular. But you see certain subpopulations of men who are more vulnerable. Gay men are more vulnerable to muscle dysmorphia and to using anabolic steroids because of the heightened appearance pressures in that space. Younger men. So it does tend to be something that has its onset in younger years similar to anorexia.Laura: Sorry, I was gonna ask you, we know kind of what age do boys start becoming vulnerable? Because we know in anorexia it can be as young as like eight or nine sometimes, and that age is getting younger and younger.Scott: Yeah. And you see the same thing in muscle dysmorphia. So the first vulnerability factors can appear there. Studies have been done with action figurines and you have young boys asked which one do they prefer more? And they're able to, to, they have their preferences in line with what you'd expect, and they'll expect a preference for their own bodies to look certain ways, as you'd expect, given media messaging.So the vulnerability factors are there. In terms of muscle dysmorphia on setting tends to take quite a while. You'd be familiar. It's not the case that you hear a couple of messages, you get a mean comment about your appearance, and then suddenly you have it . It's years of internalizing and a bunch of factors that come along, and then it might strike in your teens or your early adulthood.And we see that in muscle dysmorphia too. Steroids often come into the piece a little later, so early adulthood to mid, and it's because they're expensive and they're hard to access.Laura: Yeah. You need to be kind of savvy also. Yeah. I can imagine kids who have figured out the whole cryptocurrency thing. I'm sure that they, you know, would get in there if they could, if they had the means. So you're saying gay men are more at risk. What, are there any other sort of subpopulations that you know, you're particularly worried about?Scott: Men who are in sports for which body weight or some aesthetic element around body weight is a key part. So not uncommon to have guys with muscle dysmorphia say that a lot of some of these thoughts came about because they had to weigh in for their sports. Maybe they were, they were boxes or fighters, something like that. So it just primed them to be in the space of being anxious about the number on the scale and how their fitness was progressing. Things like that.Laura: Do we know anything about racialized groups and, and who might be most at risk?Scott: There is some evidence though, it's not great in terms of its quality as of yet, that folks in predominantly white countries who are not white themselves may be at greater risk for both muscle dysmorphia and steroid use. Data we produced in Australia that was specific to gay bisexual men of, of various races suggested for example, that, you know, if you were an Asian gay man in Australia, that you might be more likely to use anabolic steroids and to succumb to muscle dysmorphia.And in talking with Asian gay men in interviews in qualitative research, part of it is because, you know, if you are an Asian gay man in Australia, then you are often stereotyped as being more feminine. You're not able to be part of the masc for masc subculture, which is still quite dominant and exclusionary and anabolic steroids are a way to compensate for those other aspects of your appearance that are diminishing your masculine capital. You can see something similar happen for men who are shorter. If you go to spaces online where men are complaining about being short to other men, they'll often see, just hit the gym, just get jacked. It's a way to compensate for those other elements that are not helping you to embody that masculine archetypal, conventionally attractive male.Laura: Hmm. Okay. A while back, you talked about pressures from the media. And that has, you know historically, particularly in anorexia research, been held up as a huge antecedent, I suppose, to eating disorder precipitation, but now there's this whole other layer of social media on top of things. How does, and I'm thinking about the fact that young people in particular hang out on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and maybe less Facebook these days I don't know. I don't go on Facebook. So what do we know about the influence that social media is having on aesthetic and appearance based pressures?Scott: Social media makes people more vulnerable to eating disorders, including muscle dysmorphia. And if you are vulnerable, it can make the transition to having one of these disorders shorter. It can intensify it. And I think it can also assist in maintaining them for longer as well. So the reason why media messaging can be so problematic and damaging in terms of vulnerability for and experiencing eating disorders is because you end up with all these idealized reference points and what social media does is expands that limitlessly so that when you're on your feed and TikTok is delivering videos for you to consume, all of the reference points you are getting from content that is popular and influential and that people are responding to. It's so divorced from reality that you've got a greater pool of people comparing and feeling poorly about themselves and now investing in the general necessity of looking better.Laura: So this is an area that you've been researching. Am I right?Scott: Yeah, that's right.Laura: Can you tell us a little bit more about, you know, specific studies or experiments that you've done, that you're excited to share a bit more about?Scott: So, you know, studies of social media, including of TikTok, generally what they will do is have an experiment and you'll show people some images or videos from social media platforms that you're worried about and see how people respond. Or you have people answer a survey question that will amount to, how often do you use, say, TikTok, Instagram, and you correlate that with some measure like how you feel about your body.And that's all well and fine. But where the real explanatory power is, in my mind, is in big data and getting access into exactly what people are seeing and viewing so you can map their social media experience. So what we've been able to do is to take a group of people with eating disorders and a group of people who, we call it our healthy controls, that don't have eating disorders. And see their entire TikTok algorithm from the day they installed it to the day we requested the data. And that means we can track exactly every video that's being delivered to them, the comments, the likes, all with their consent, I'll just say, of course not being done without that. And we can see what is happening.What it means is we can show things like if you are someone with an eating disorder, your TikTok algorithm that decides what videos you see every time you log in is 50% more likely to deliver you an appearance oriented video for each and every video that you see compared to someone without an eating disorder.And the amount of videos that these folks are seeing, the average is around 2000 a month. So if you are someone in weekly therapy for an eating disorder, If you're a clinician and you have someone who you'reLaura: Oh my God. I'm just sitting here thinking about like some of my clients. I'm like,Scott: That's 500 videos on average that they are seeing between each session. And when we run studies to compliment these on new phones with fresh TikTok accounts that we manage, it only takes three minutes to get an appearance oriented video.You get 17 in the first 20 minutes. So it's not that people are seeking this content out. It happens anyway. And when we look at the rate of liking that folks with eating disorders have for this content versus folks without. It's not that the folks with eating disorders are looking for this content, they're liking it at the same rate because what's algorithm is doing is not taking what you like to determine what you want to see. They're interested in engagement, whether it's Facebook or, or Instagram or TikTok. It's what keeps you looking and what keeps you looking isn't just what makes you happy. It's what makes you anxious or what makes you upset. It's what makes you mad. And if you are someone who is really unhappy or worried about the way you look, it knows which videos will make you look more. And that's exactly what happens. And you can see over time how the algorithm becomes more echo chambery as people get sucked into the vortex of this content.Laura: I think the scariest part for me both as someone who works with eating disorders and as a parent, like my child is obviously not on social media right now, but will be one day I'm sure, is the fact that they know, like the social media companies know exactly what they're doing because wasn't it a couple of years ago, but there was a whistleblower at meta. Who said who, who said, we have all of this information that shows that our algorithms are making body image and eating disorders worse, and yet they're not doing anything about it.Scott: Yeah. And then they downplayed and discredited their own data generated by the star researchers they themselves hired which is absurd. And the reason that they don't wanna do anything about it is because the..Laura: It's capitalism.Sorry, go. Scott: No, you, you're exactly right. The money is made from engagement. And I think the faint that the social media companies do is to imply that what they're doing is giving people what they want, community connectedness. And when it comes to advertising that they're connecting people with the products that they want to buy. And through being able to like things, you can get the sense that, oh, the social media companies are just sitting back and people are doing what they want in there.They're getting what they want, but certainly, the controls that you think you have over what your algorithm, especially on TikTok is sending you is less. And it's about engagement. And engagement doesn't care how you feel, if it's positive or negative, it just cares that you spent the time. Whatever it takes to get you to do more time is what it is going to send you. It's worth noting also that when you look at the proportion of appearance honored content that your algorithm sends you, so how big this echo chamber is, that correlates strongly with the eating disorder symptoms. So the more your algorithm becomes, you know, polluted by appearance, honored content, the worse the eating disorder becomes in tandem. And why wouldn't it?Laura: I have a question, and you might not be able to answer this. One of my clients uses the term recovery porn in eating disorder recovery, which are all of these images of usually women who claim to be in recovery or recovered. Have you looked at the impact that these recovery accounts have on eating disorder recovery?Scott: I've not looked at that specifically, but I'm well aware of the phenomenon your client has described. And unfortunately, lots of social media phenomena and hashtags, like for example eating disorder recovery, body positivity is another good example.Laura: Yeah.Scott: They are not clear paragons, they're not at all as clearly useful as we would like them to be if someone went searching for them. You go looking for ed recovery, you might find an account that is extremely thoughtful in the way that that content is presented right alongside content that is clearly not being very helpful. Just like with body positivity, you might get someone who hearkens back to the, the fat acceptance movement, who's really preaching the fighting the good flight right next to someone who is perhaps well-meaning, but still thin, skinny, and they're pinching a tiny little roll of fat and going body positivity, which as I can tell from your reaction is missing the point.Laura: Yeah. Okay. Maybe, maybe something for a future research agenda then, Scott.Scott: Absolutely. It's a great suggestion.Laura: I'm curious to, because, and I think what it comes, what it comes back to you articulated it there really well. I think something that I tried to unpack with my clients, you know, is thinking about, okay, well, is this image, they might have the message on point, right? But if there's an image that is still highly focused on aesthetics, it's highly focused on their body and, you know, showing off their body in a particular way, then that really completely undermines the message that they might have been sending with the best of intention.So just a little interesting aside, but you know, you've talked about how social media, you know, there might be some benefits to social media. I think there's definitely some work that has shown that coming out of the center of appearance research, but it's murkier and less clearly defined than, than maybe we would like to think.So you painted this really dark picture of social media and, and how it contributes to muscle dysmorphic disorder. So I'm wondering what we can do both from maybe a clinical perspective, or maybe a public health perspective as well as maybe a parenting perspective to protect our kids from internalizing these messages because they're gonna be exposed to them. Right. We know that for sure. So how do we buffer the impact, both maybe at the broader public health level, because this is a public health issue clearly, but also maybe in our own parenting in our own homes. Scott: Yeah. And okay, you're absolutely right. You cannot start from a base of let's not use social media altogether. That's, that's the arena. That's where youth culture is driven in, telling young people not to use it is just not practical. So they're going to use it. Encouraging your child to be a critical consumer of media generally, including on social media, is really useful.I think if you feel confident enough to talk about it, explaining to them that what they see is delivered to them by algorithms can be useful. That's something we're exploring in our own research where we want young people to have a better understanding that what they're seeing in their feed is not a one-to-one reflection of reality to the world as it actually is.And that's beyond the, you know, manipulation of photos and self portrayals that go on, but like the algorithm just feeding you with whatever activates your emotions. Part of that is this tool we're developing that can visualize your algorithm for you so that you can know and compare it to others just how biased it's become. And this can be for clinicians too, because if you have a client walk in the door, you need to know if 70% of their feed is appearance oriented, which is not a number I picked out of thin air. That's an actual number from clients we had with anorexia nervosa. And then you can have a productive conversation with that person around, okay, your algorithm is not only not reflective of reality, it's doing you harm and this is how we can work to remediate it.Laura: I would definitely, like sign me up for that tool. I will test it for you. Whatever you need me to do.Scott: Lovely.Laura: So, so yeah, having conversations that, you know, that there's obviously, the images themselves have been highly altered, stylized, potentially photoshopped, all kinds of different things. But then there's this whole machinery and infrastructure behind that feeding you more and more and more of these idealized images.Scott: Yeah, that's it. And you know, when social media, the way we use it, a lot of the time, like a lot of the time when people are using TikTok, people's guards are down. It's incidental. It's minutes in bed when you first wake up, it's bed when you might be trying to go to sleep. It's when you're on a bus, it's when you're bored, it's when you're tired.It's not active consumption of content. And before you know it, you can have scrolled through or mindlessly watched tens and tens of videos that have appearance oriented content and, just like with how people think that advertising isn't working on them, but the reason that so much money is pumped into it is because it does have cumulative accumulative impacts on, on purchasing decisions. The same thing happens with social media, so it's about getting people to recognize that and to try to minimize what's happening in those spaces because it all adds up.Laura: You know, you said kind of towards the top of the interview that people who are deep in their eating disorder, whether it's anorexia, whether it's muscle dysmorphic disorder, bulimia, orthorexia, whatever form that takes, they are, you know, the least clear in what's going on, right? They're the least easily able to see what's going on. They are definitely aware that there's a problem, but they might not be able to identify exactly what that is. So, with that in mind, I'm wondering for, for parents particularly of teen boys, tweens and teens, it sounds like are both vulnerable and kind of heading into adolescence.If a parent notices more protein powders coming into the house, more you know, concerns about lean protein and less carbohydrates on the plate and more time working out or conversations about being fit, about being healthy, and they're, they're noticing that, that's becoming increasingly rigid and perfectionistic. How might a parent approach this, do you think? Scott: It's a very common question that has never had an answer come easy to me, as I'm sure it wouldn't for many parents because teenage boys are notoriously challenging to talk to and get to open up to, especially about these,Laura: Yeah, but you're a psychologist so you ,Scott: So I'm obliged to have an answer and I I have you. So I think the way we approach folks who we think have muscle dysmorphia, but who are perhaps reluctant to talk about it, is to emphasize those parts of their training and their dieting that aren't working for them. We don't say, “Is it making you sad or anxious?” and, “what's not working for you?” because often whether it's a young boy, a teen, a young adult, they're just thinking about progress. They wanna progress. It's, I want my lifts to get stronger, my body to get better, etc. And the things that we think of as the symptoms of the disorder, the things that we're worried about, they're not worried about them per se. They're worried about their progress. And it's those things on the side that are making it hard, right? So we frame it as, okay. What's, what's getting in the way of you being able to train and diet and be like this and, and that maybe it's, ah, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't train today. I had to go and do this.It's like, oh, okay. So like, how did it make you feel? It's like, you can try to get them to see that it's the rigidity that is being more unhelpful than helpful. We deliberately keep it above the level of feelings for a while until that is more approachable. Often with our young clients, we'll just pitch it as, look we don't want to change your training and your dieting. We're not gonna tell you not to go to the gym. We just want you to be in a space where you can get back to making the progress that you wanna make. Then you've got your foot in the door and you go from thereLaura: You're getting them on side. You're telling them I'm on your team. Yeah.Scott: Yeah. Because whilst you can say the term body image to most young women and they intuitively know what you're thinking about, if I try to say, “are you worried about your body image?” to a young man, even if I know they are, it's so super clear as day, a lot of the time they'll say no.Laura: Yeah,Scott: Like straight up, they'll say no to you. Because it's just not the language that they speakLaura: Yeah, yeah. But if you can talk to them in terms of gains and what's getting in the way of theirScott: What's getting in the way? You know, you're not talking about feelings per se. That's just the best way I can describe it. It's a very tactful and challenging spot to be in, I think.Laura: Yeah. I mean, my hope is that I never have to broach this conversation with my kid, but fuck parenting is hard, man.Scott: Yeah, I certainly empathize.Laura: And I really hope you don't say CBT right now, but what do we know about treatment? What is available to help young people, older people, whoever is impacted by muscle dysmorphia to help them recover?Scott: The evidence-based for effective treatment for muscle dysmorphia is extremely limited. It's nowhere near what we have for the other eating disorders. There is nothing in the way of an RCT or anything like that. I have a PhD student now who is running the first manualised treatment for muscle dysmorphia, so we'll see how that turns out.Generally speaking, the approaches that work for eating disorders will also work for muscle dysmorphia, in my opinion, because again, the core maintaining factors of the disorder and precipitating factors are very, very similar. And what has been encouraging as a first port of call, the major eating disorder charities that run helplines, so certainly the Butterfly Foundation in Australia perhaps BEAT over in the UK, they are increasingly cognizant of muscle dysmorphia and the helpline staff are better equipped to, to talk about it, which is perfect.Laura: I noticed the other day that there's even an NHS page, which, you know, you and I spoke a couple of years ago for Don't Salt My Game, and I'm pretty sure it didn't exist even then. So there is certainly more recognition and awareness, but it sounds like people are more equipped to have these conversations, certainly in the eating disorder space.I worry more about kind of general practice in terms of medicine because there's even and, and don't get, this is not GP bashing . We all know how much pressure GPs are under, but there is a lack of awareness even about more traditional eating disorders in that space. So yeah, I reckon BEAT would be probably the best first port of call there.But in terms of treatment, it sounds like we don't exactly know yet. Your sense is that probably some of the modalities that we use for other eating disorders are probably gonna be successful because of, you know, the same underlying maintaining and precipitating factors. But I guess we need to wait for your student to do their research before we have more clear answers on that.Scott: Yeah. But even then for the really convincing answer that yes, you can confidently send someone for this treatment and there's a great chance they get better years and years away from that. But what I find promising is in talking to eating disorder clinicians, in training them when it comes to muscle dysmorphia, it's not a case of, oh, how am I gonna do this?It's, oh wow. There's all the parallels are all there, which is great because it means that the tools are there, it's just a matter of education both on the part of the clinician and on on people and young men so that they know they can go and seek help and that help will be there to meet them.Laura: Absolutely. And I just wanna go back to the TikTok algorithm thing, which is super disturbing to me, but, but just to kind of close out, I wonder, you know, from your perspective as a researcher, what do we need to be doing both in terms of a research agenda, but maybe also like a public health policy agenda in terms of tackling some of these, like really problematic systems, I suppose, that young people are up against. I don't know if that question makes sense, but like, where do we go from here? What do we do with this?Scott: No, I've thought about this. There's the organizations I'm working with in Singapore, we've been talking about that at length and the broader conversation that needs to be had moving back from TikTok to algorithms and data generally is we need greater oversight and control of how our data is used to deliver us content of all kinds.Because people cannot bat an eyelid when they think of, alright, I wanna clean my house and I'm on Instagram and I got an ad for a cleaning product, cool. And in your ideal world, advertising connects you seamlessly to the things that can make your life easier. What you don't want is for an algorithm to see and know that a young person has been looking at a lot of videos that are around weight loss and now a targeted ad comes up for a weight loss supplement, cause that is how that data gets used also.And we need tools, I think like the one we're developing so that people can see what their algorithms are sending that. You should know. You should know if your algorithm is sending you three times more toxic masculinity content than someone else, if it's sending you more eating disorder content, if it's sending you more plastic surgery content.Because the first step in a battle is knowing what your algorithms are sending to you. And this issue only becomes more important because let's say you or I wanted to find out something factual, we go to Google.Gen Z uses things like TikTok for search. 40% of Gen Z prefers to use TikTok than Google for search, which means you are down the rabbit hole of the algorithm from day dot.So you need to know, but of course that information's never released to you. So it's pushing back against the opaqueness of the data that we provide and how that data is used to send us content because it's not in our, in the service of our health and connectedness and community. Again, it's in the service of, of money, and, and engagement. So I think that's the broader conversation, right? The data collected from us is not benign.Laura: Oh, absolutely. Wow. All right, Scott, on that cherry note, um, at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been really excited about lately. Um, So something they've been snacking on, either literally or metaphorically. Do you have something picked out?Scott: I do. So in Singapore, my favorite breakfast to have is kaya toast with some rather runny under soft boiled eggs with soy sauce and white pepper. It's a very common breakfast here, and I love it. It's so, so satisfying. I had it this morning. I'll have it again tomorrow.Laura: Sorry. What is the kind of toast did you say?Scott: It's called Kaya Toast. So it's like thick cuts of toast with butter that's called kaya butter. And it's slightly sweet. I think it has a more fun and complex flavour than regular butter. And you can dip that in eggs that are loaded up with white pepper and soy sauce.Laura: Got it.Scott: I love it.Laura: Oh, it sounds like they have a really amazing food culture over there. Like I've heard from people that they have like, you know, lots of different kinds of street food and stuff like that, so yeah. That sounds awesome. Mine is also a food so it's, I mean, it's only February at the time of recording, but like all the Easter stuff is now showing up in the shops and so I demolished a pack of like Doisy and Dam, which is like a brand of chocolate over here, mini eggs the other day. And they were so good. Like, I don't know if you get mini eggs in Australia, they're like solid chocolate eggs with like a candy kind of coating shell around them. And they're like all different kind of pastel kind of colors. Like yellow and pink and green and like eastery kind of spring colors.Scott: It's possible we do, I can't recall 'em off the top of my head,Laura: You're gonna tell me like you don't like chocolate or something.Scott: No, no, no. I love chocolate I'm not sillyLaura: So I think you would like, I know you would recognise them. So maybe you don't have them. You don't have them over there. All right, Scott, it's been really great to chat to you again. Can you let everybody know where they can find out more about you, your research group, or any of your publications? I will link to the study, the TikTok studies if they're published yet? Scott: They're in the process of being, so the best place to follow along with the research my team does, including the TikTok work, is at my Twitter. It's @Scott1Griffiths. Or just search Google. Scott Griffiths, Scott Griffiths Body Image Research or something like that, and it will come up. That's the easiest way.Laura: I'll link to it so that it saves people the minefield of Googling stuff.Scott: Yeah.Laura: But yeah, so that's the best place to follow along on your Twitter and get updates about your research. I can't wait to read that. Well say. I can't wait to read it. I'm really depressed after talking to you about the state of social media.I mean, I was already bummed out about it, but this has just solidified that for me. So thank you for that. But otherwise, it was really great to talk to you and it's obviously really essential and important research that you're doing. So thank you for taking the time to share it with us.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. 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Today I'm talking to Dr. Hillary McBride. Hillary is a psychologist, a researcher, and podcaster, with expertise that includes working with trauma and trauma therapies, and embodiment. She's the author of two books - ‘Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image: Learning to Love Ourselves as We Are', and ‘The Wisdom of Your Body: Finding Wholeness, Healing and Connection through Embodied Living'. She is on the teaching faculty at the University of British Columbia and hosts the podcast Other People's Problems. Today, we're speaking about embodiment, healing from trauma and loads of other really cool things!Find out more about Hillary's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Order Hillary's books here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Hillary: We could look at how convenient it is to assume that we are an image and then try to control that image when it causes us to forfeit the information that might say, no, I don't wanna participate in the system, or yes, I am hungry and I wanna eat that food even if it means that my body is not gonna appear the way that so and so expects it to. That the information on the inside is costly to stay connected to in a culture that is asking us to forfeit it, in order to belong in this kind of flattened, disembodied, two-dimensional version of, of being an image.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome back to Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they are nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Hillary McBride. Hillary is a psychologist, a researcher, and a podcaster with expertise that includes working with trauma and trauma therapies and embodiment. She's the author of two books: ‘Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image: Learning to Love Ourselves as We Are', and that was published in 2017 and her latest book, ‘The Wisdom of Your Body: Finding Wholeness, Healing and Connection Through Embodied Living' came out in Fall 2021.Hillary is on the teaching faculty at the University of British Columbia, and she hosts the podcast, Other People's Problems. Today I'm talking to Hillary about embodiment, healing from trauma, and loads of other really cool things. So stay tuned.Before we get to our conversation with Hillary, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely reader and listener supported. We don't have sponsors or do adverts or anything like that. I don't make money from affiliate links. I'm not trying to sell you anything you don't need. All I ask is that if you value the space and the community that we're building, then please consider becoming a paid subscriber. 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Here's my conversation with Hillary McBride.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Hillary, I'd love it if you could start by telling us who or what you are nourishing right now.Hillary: Well, I am nourishing myself and my toddler, and I am so much more attuned to what that means because, I am breastfeeding and I am always ferociously hungry all the time, and there is something about nourishing and kind of the, the literal transmutation of all the food as it comes into my body, out of my body, into her body, that, uh, shows me how deeply connected those two are, both the nourishing and the being nourished.Laura: Yeah, I haven't thought about it in that way that, I like that word that you use transmutation, um, and also breastfeeding a toddler I can relate to that. And yeah, just having to be really in tune with yourself, but also to a toddler and their needs.Hillary: Yes,Laura: It could be a lot.Hillary: You know, it can be a lot. It's wonderful. And I feel so privileged to, through motherhood, see and experience that connection of how much my attunement and my self care to my body actually literally supports her to thrive and be well. And there's something about that, even just the way you pose the question that highlights for me, the, the interdependence between us as bodies that I think we sometimes forget when we're just mulling about our days, thinking of ourselves as individuals. There's actually this inherent connection between all of us as bodies, and I think parenthood really, really brings that right up close to your face.Laura: Mm, yeah. I think a lot about interdependence in parenting. You know, from the perspective that that capitalism keeps us so sort of separate from one another. And prioritizes independence and, you know, trying to parent under late stage capitalism without family and community around is so fucking hard. So really, really hard that, yeah, like it just really for me has hammered home how interdependent we are.Hillary: Uh-huh. Yeah. You said it. That's exactly it.Laura: So Hillary, this is somewhat related, but your area of expertise is in embodiment, and embodiment is a term I've noticed recently, it's kind of buzzy. I'm seeing it show up everywhere, but I'm wondering if you could tell us how you understand and define embodiment.Hillary: Yes, I would be so privileged. So there's a couple different ways of defining it, and I'll give you a couple different definitions and then I'll, I'll tell you what I think is salient about them, but I really like the Merleau-Ponty definition, which is that embodiment is the perceptual experience of engagement of the body in the world. Or another way of describing it is the lived experience of engaging in the world as a body.Laura: Hm.Hillary: What both of those definitions have in common is that there is both a felt sense, experiential kind of body, you know, as it's known and lived and encountered and understood and sensed by me and a sociopolitical, contextual, cultural piece.It is, you know, how is all of that shaped by the landscape that I'm in, by the people that I'm in, by the stories of power and privilege that I encounter? So there's a dialectic between what felt sense is like in and through me, and then the world that I'm in. You know, it's really interesting to look at it through that lens as having both kind of this material, individual quality and a sociocultural and interpersonal quality, because I think it really breaks down the assumptions that we have, that our bodies are in a way, uniquely ours.We can have autonomy and agency over our bodies, but, but we also are in a world that is constantly saying things to us about what bodies are good and how to be, and how to shape movement and how to feed ourselves and what is desirable in terms of our appearance. And those things really get, you know, lodged inside of us in such a way that sometimes we forget that those stories come from culture and they feel like they're our own thoughts or our own identities.So I love thinking about embodiment as including these two pieces and in, in a way actually being the conversation between them.Laura: I love that, that kind of reciprocal relationship between our bodies and the, the context of our bodies. And I love the quote that you use in your book. I think it's, is it Teresa Silo? Is that how you,Hillary: ah-huh.Laura: Is that how you pronounce her name? Where you quote her as saying, or them as saying the body is not a thing we have, but an experience we are. And I always think there's kind of an irony in talking about and trying to define embodiment because as soon as we kind of put words to it, we're sort of, I don't know, what's the word that I'm looking for? Hillary: Like in an abstraction or we're losing something about the felt sense or the quality of it by trying to talk about it or think aboutLaura: Yeah, yeah. No, that's exactly it. We're turning it into this like, academic thing when it's really, like you've said, it's a felt sense, it's an experience, so I just wanted to highlight the sort of, the irony in us talking about embodiment.Hillary: Oh, I'm so glad that you said that because it reminds me of something else that I often say when I'm talking about embodiment, which is to say, you know, instead of me describing it, how about I tell you about, you know, that time 30 minutes ago or two hours ago, when you really knew that you needed a drink of water. And the quality of the sensation and your awareness of that sensation, and then your action to go meet that need to go get yourself a glass of water or not. And all of the stories around you that impacted why you knew what that sensation was like or didn't know and why you did something about it or not.It's like the, you know, sometimes because we get stuck in the academic definitions and we lose the felt sense quality, we actually understand embodiment when we come back to the, the sensory memory, the procedural memory, the qualitative nature of being a body, because that as much, you know, some of us have harder times accessing that, it may actually be a little bit more accessible to us than all of the, you know, the floral or abstracted language that we use to talk about this thing, which is kind of our aliveness and it as it's felt and sensed.Laura: And I love that word that you used, aliveness. And it makes me think of how I think and how I conceptualise embodiment in some of the work that I do around feeding and working with, with children and families is, you know, I think of embodiment a lot about a baby or a toddler who is just so, you know, they're all feeling, they're all in their body. There's no kind of like, they haven't quite internalised messages around shame and, you know, these social scripts that we pick up and, I think of animals as well as, you know, being really, embodied in a very positive way. Obviously, of course, we're all embodied, but you know, as you alluded to our experiences of embodiment can be, can lean more positively or more negatively depending on, again, some of the social scripts that we've been handed, the sociopolitical context that we find ourselves in, but I wondered if it would just, if it was helpful for some of the listeners to, to especially anyone who's parent or been around children or animals to, you know, connect with that idea that, you know, we're born embodied and, and, and we have this really strong sense of, of positive embodiment when, especially when we're little. And then, you know, Niva Piran's research tells us that as we get closer to, um, particularly for girls, as we get closer to puberty, and we start acting on the body instead of being in, you know, acting from the body, that, yeah, that's where the, those ruptures in our embodiment begin.Hillary: Mm-hmm.Laura: I wonder if you could speak to maybe some of the other ways our experiences of embodiment are shaped both at the individual level, but also from that broader sociopolitical context that we've touched on.Hillary: Well, I think that the most obvious things that we could look at have to do with our isms around power, how power is distributed. So, which bodies are considered desirable, which bodies are forgotten socially, and again, that might seem kind of abstract until, until all of a sudden you're in a wheelchair and you realise that city planning didn't necessarily think about all the ways that people who use mobility aids need to get into buildings.That there's something that's communicated there about which bodies and how bodies move through space that's not really considered by those who have the, the most social power. So we think about like ableism and racism and sizeism, sexism and you know, there's just so many isms that are proliferated in our culture that we don't really even think about, especially if we benefit from them in some way.So there's that quality of it. Of course, there's the way that media and parents and peers are vessels for those messages about what is desirable. That's considered the tripartite model. But looking at these three different streams of influence that disseminate messages about ideal bodies, about good bodies, about what is valuable culturally.And whenever I think about the tripartite model, the, you know what's interesting about it if you were to see it visually, is it places you right, the individual at the centre of these streams of information coming at you, there is these arrows of media. You know, parents or caregivers and peers, colleagues, right? Your friends, they're pointing at you, but you are also in one of those categories, likely, if not more, for another person. And so we are handed this information and then we are handing it to each other. Just based on the ways that we use greetings and how we comment on other people's appearance and what we say about their eating and um, their feeding of themselves and their movement, and the kinds of things that we, we praise and the kinds of things that we are silent about or criticise.So there is this really interesting soup that we're in. But if we follow those arrows back from us to where they come from, we see structures around, you know, hierarchies of body that were created many millennia ago based on who was able to leave or control the body the best. Who is seen as actually having the ability to conquer or subdue the body in terms of its animal nature, it's sensory qualities, it's sensuality. In some ways it's mystery. And all of it, it seems, stems back to that, could this one group of people conquer their body better than someone else, and then the assumption or the conferring of power based on that, right? That this is somehow superior.Laura: Yeah, I think a lot about it in terms of, you know, the, the cultures of domination that we live in. But I think the way that you're expanding it, there is almost, you know, the, the genesis of all of this was domination over one group's own bodies before then that ripple effect goes out to dominate other bodies and animals and the natural world.Hillary: Yes, and I would argue that that might even come from before, that the domination of the body of the earth, the sense that the earth is a body in its own way. That is in a way kind of our original mother as a species. And the earth's body needs to be objectified and conquered, which teaches us to objectify and conquer our own bodies, and then consequently punish the people who can't do that as being kind of unruly or somehow lacking status or privilege or power.Laura: Wow. Okay. I wasn't expecting to go there, but we did. Hillary in, your second book, The Wisdom of Your Body, you talk about the ways that we learn to view our bodies as an image. You know, we use the term body image all the time, which when you think about it, is fundamentally objectifying, right?Hillary: Mm-hmm.Laura: I'm wondering if you can share, you know, how this happens. How do we come to view our bodies as objects separate from, from us and, what does this do to our experience of embodiment?Hillary: It is something so funny to think about, hey, when we start actually looking at the language, like body image has been used as shorthand for how we relate to our bodies, but we are not just images. We are not just in relationship with our appearance and we have so much more dimensionality to us than than what is visible to us, visible about us on the outside and how we perceive and relate to that.So my relationship to that term has evolved since, really because of my own journey through eating disorder recovery and feeling like I wanted to leave behind the two-dimensional way of relating to my body as an image and move inside into a kind of interiority of the body. And what's fascinating about the research about that is that it seems that that actually kind of inoculates us against eating disorders.You might think that, you know, not working on eating disorders as an issue would be missing a major construct in a cornerstone of the work. But it seems that there is something about leaving ourselves and seeing ourselves just as an image that is, as a, a kind of pathology in a way, and that there is a, a wholeness that is lacking in our relationship and experience of ourselves unless we include.All of the other qualities, the felt senses, the interoception, really what it's like to live and be us from the inside out. So when I think about body image, I often very closely think about objectification and self-objectification and the way that we learn to see ourselves from the outside.Seeing ourselves through the gaze of the other, but also, I think you could argue, especially if you're familiar with Foucault's work, like looking at the body through the gaze of those who have the power and those who are most interested in subduing and controlling and disciplining the body. But we learn to take the position of those who have the most power, those who could hurt us, those who could approve of us or judge us. And we begin to see ourselves and police our through their eyes, and it is through assuming the position of this external gaze that we lose or leave behind some of that other more subtle, nuanced information that can only be felt and lived through us and consequently actually might serve to disrupt some of those systems of power.We could look at how convenient it is to assume that we are an image and then try to control that image when it causes us to forfeit the information that might say, no, I don't wanna participate in the system, or yes, I am hungry and I wanna eat that food even if it means that my body is not gonna appear the way that so and so expects it to. That the information on the inside is costly to stay connected to in a culture that is asking us to forfeit it, in order to belong in this kind of flattened, disembodied, two-dimensional version of, of being an image.So there is something that I think that's really important here about recognising, again, what you brought up earlier of power and social control, and the way that even receiving ourselves as simply an image is a byproduct of a social context in which we are rewarded for being less of a body because we are often then more compliant. Laura: Yeah, there's a lot to think about there. I think have to like process that a little bit after we finish our call. I suppose what was coming up for me there is, you know, in the age of hyper information and social media and you know, when, when we're so bombarded with our own image, images of other people, that are often presented in these really like one-dimensional ways.Hillary: Mm.Laura: You know, it's so much easier to self objectifyHillary: Yes.Laura: Than it is to be positively embodied or embodied in any sense, really. I'm just curious, you know, how when you're swimming upstream like this, you know, what do you find to be helpful? Because I think, you know, cognitively we can all understand, wow, that's really messed up when you put it in those terms. But again, embodying something different is so much harder. So, you know, where can we even begin with that, do you think?Hillary: Yeah. Well, my discipline will betray me when I say this because, or I should say I will betray my discipline in a way when I say this, but we, you know, we are constantly in development. The idea that development is only something that happens in these critical and sensitive periods of our life is actually just, it's not true scientifically. And I understand why we do it culturally to say, you know, here's where there is so much that is happening. We need to be protective of people who are vulnerable because their systems are, are changing so much and it's setting up so much of the rest of their lives. But we will be in development, we will be experiencing developmental transitions for the rest of our lives, including death.Death is a developmental transition. When we look at Niva Piran's Developmental Theory of Embodiment, there is so much that we can borrow at different phases of the lifespan. And why I think that's hopeful is because it gives us a guide to the places that we can, we can. Intersect with interventions and support and resources and where we can direct our attention to support ourselves, to continue to reclaim some of the aspects of being a body that have been left behind.So that includes looking at the social domain. What are the places where I can experience the freedom to be in my body and to be understood in the challenges of being a body in the social climate? And where do I experience having social power? Right? Who? Who are the people who understand my lived experience and can validate the lived reality of oppression and marginalisation or, you know, can affirm the goodness of my body, even if the larger social narrative and dominant culture is either silent or oppressive to what my experience of my body is like. So there's the social power aspect, there's the mental, mental freedom aspect. You know, negotiating with some of the, the constructs that we carry inside, being critical about the thinking that we have and the places that we learned that thinking, assessing social discourse.Um, you know, the irony with this is, I had an eating disorder therapist for quite some time who said women with eating disorders are philosopher queens. And there are, you know, I am sure lots of places where that does not apply. But in my experience, and I think what she was trying to say to me was not that there was an absence of thought, but that I was really up in my mind.And if we can be curious about what is going on up in our minds, and if we can harness the criticism that is often turned towards our bodies and actually redirect it to the place that it's due, which is these really harmful social constructs and experiences and distributions of power, then the mechanism of being thoughtful and thinking critically does not have to disappear. It can just get redirected to the place that it deserves to be redirected. We can learn to see the social landscape for the problems and the toxicity that it has and build something new instead of directing that energy towards our bodies, thinking our bodies were ever a problem.And then lastly, of course, the physical freedom piece. If we create experiences where we encounter being in a body and can notice that that is pleasurable and is good and we can work on building attunement towards ourselves, I think that that inoculates us against the pervasive image culture. These are all different ways that we bring our attention back into creating experiences both in ourselves and between us and others that make it hospitable to be in our bodies. And help us remember what we knew right from the beginning in our earliest phases of development, which is that our body is full of communication. Our body is us. Our body can be trusted, our body is wise. Our body knows the way. Our body deserves to be safe and is actually ultimately, I think, interested in creating safety for all of us.Laura: I love that. And again, so many threads that we could, we could pull on there, but I loved especially what you, what you were saying about, well, there were two, two pieces that, that really stood out for me. I think one of which was just this idea of where we are so quick to criticise and tear ourselves down. Yeah. How can we externalise that? How can we turn that towards these oppressive systems that exist outside of our bodies that are making us feel a particular way about our bodies? And then the second piece, you said so elegantly, but I kind of was coming back to this idea of community and finding safety in people who can, um, other people who share similar lived experiences to us, who can affirm our experiences, who can show solidarity with us, who can hold us and, and say, you know, there is nothing wrong with your body. There is nothing wrong with the way that you show up in the world. It's everything else outside of of us that's messed up. and yeah, just, just be in community with one, one another. Kind of almost going full circle back to what we talked about at the very beginning, sort of thinking about interdependence and, and how we all kind of fit together in the sort of wider human tapestry,Hillary: Yes. Yes, exactly.Laura: And I mentioned to you off mic, a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are parents or have children in their lives, and I know you're a parent yourself, and I wonder from your perspective, what do you think are the most important things that adults can do to support kids' sense of positive embodiment?You know, we've talked a lot about at the sort of collective level, and there's a lot that needs to change there, but I'm wondering if you have any nuggets for parents, you know, any considerations or anything that they can do to help their kids maintain a sense of being in their bodies, a sense of their bodies as their homes as this place of safety.Hillary: Well, there's a few things that come to mind, and I'm hoping that that means that even if all of them don't feel accessible, then hopefully one, one does for the parents out there. So I think a really important thing to do is to affirm how they are already listen. So when a kid says, “I'm hungry”, you can say, “Wow, you're really listening to your body. Thank you so much for telling me”. You know, that doesn't necessarily mean that we do whatever they want because we live in families and we have limitations, and we have schedules, and we have all sorts of things that we need to fit in and negotiate. But simply saying, “I'm so glad you're listening. Thank you for telling me”. I think what that does is it protects, protects the knowing even if we have to set a boundary and say, you know, “It's gonna be a little while until we can have a snack because we're actually driving, we don't have anything in the car right now. But you know you're hungry and you're doing such a good job. Listening to that and telling me”. What we don't want to have happen is to signal in any way to children that they have to disqualify their bodily knowing to stay in connection with us because that's often what happens in terms of an attachment framework, right? Children are so sensitive to what their caregivers need in order for them to be considered pleasing and when children perceive their caregiver as being disappointed or scared or ashamed or something because of the information they're giving them, they're gonna learn very, very quickly not to give them that information. And it's not a far jump from, I'm not gonna give that information, to I'm suppressing that information, to I don't notice it at all.So simply being able to say to your children, “You do know you're tired. I believe you, that you're hungry. I am so glad you're listening. Ooh. What does it feel like in your tummy when you're hungry? How do you know? What is it like? Is it like a growling?” You know? Right. Even just being in the experience of it with them to thicken their awareness of it is a great way to preserve that and let them know that them paying attention to their bodies will not cut them off from connection to you.Laura: So the other day, so we send Avery, my almost three year old, with a packed lunch to his daycare setting. And the other day he came home and he said to us, “I ate one carrot”. And he was like, so proud of eating this carrot. And of course, I never praise based on, you know, what he has or hasn't eaten and I'm, you know, maintain this very food neutral approach. So I was really surprised by this and I did a little bit of interrogating it and, you know, I've actually had to go and speak to daycare because they are, you know, pressuring him to eat. Which really crosses so many boundaries for me in terms of not respecting his autonomy. Not respecting his voice, you know, he had said no and he was told, well, you just have to eat one carrot. And then obviously this was reinforced with praise before he came home and said, “I ate one carrot”, you know, I had to sit with why this really played on my mind. And it's, you know, for the reasons that you're describing that overriding someone's no, overriding their body autonomy can become a sort of slippery slope to them. You know, not, not being able to recognise their own needs and suppressing their needs and or performing, you know, for adult's praise or adult's validation, and that's so much bigger than respecting their hunger and fullness cues. That's just one tiny part of this work, I think. So yeah, that was just an example that came to mind.Hillary: Thank you so much for sharing that because I think it, you know, where it takes me is into the complexity that parents often bring to the conversation of, you know, there are times I have to override their cues. Like they're saying, no, I don't wanna have my diaper changed and they've got a poopy diaper. You're like, this would actually be negligent if I didn't, like you actually can't make that call right now, but how important it is to say, you know, “I really hear your no, I really hear that you don't want me to change your diaper. I'm so glad you're telling me there's something about that that doesn't feel good for you. You can always, always tell me, and I'm always going to listen to you. And there are some situations where even if something is uncomfortable or hard for you, I have to help you do it because it is for your safety, because it cares for your body, and I want for you to know that even though I'm gonna be caring for your body in this way, I still believe that you don't want me to, and I'm hearing you, and I'm so glad you're telling me”.Because I think what often happens is if we have to, we are in those situations where we do have to override the no that the parenting kind of reaction that we might naturally wanna have is, I'm gonna shut down your, no, then I'm gonna tell you, you shouldn't say no because it's actually kind of uncomfortable for me as a parent to say to you. Yes, you're allowed to disagree with me, but I'm still gonna do what I'm doing. Right? That's a complicated thing to feel and we can feel like it would just be easier for them to not say anything because it's too uncomfortable for us. So being able to say, you can keep telling me no. You can tell me just how much you don't like it. I believe you. I believe you. Tell me what it is as I'm changing your diaper. What is it about it that you really don't like? Like keeping them connected to themselves and keeping them connected to you while you're also prioritising their health and safety? I think it is possible to do it all.Laura: Yeah, no, and thank you for adding that nuance of, you know, there are times where, especially around care tasks, where we can validate what they're expressing about how strongly they don't want to do something and how that feels really uncomfortable or really annoying or, you know, just not what they want to be doing in that moment.And we have to hold a boundary because it's really important for hygiene or, you know, for their safety or, or whatever it is. And so there's definitely that, that piece of it. And you know, something that I've been thinking about with, with Avery, is, you know, in terms of his body boundaries and helping him assert that.Well, there's two things actually. We're practicing saying things like, “I'm the boss of my body”, which I know is gonna backfire at some point when he, you know, when it comes to washing his hair or getting in the bath or something like that. But yeah, just reminding him that, you know, he is in charge of what crosses that body boundary.And another thing that I've come across lately, I don't know if you've discovered this song yet, but it's called The Boundary Song.Hillary: Ooh, I haven't, I'm gonna have to look it up.Laura: Yeah, it's, um, it's called the Boundary Song. I'll link to it. I think it's Hopscotch is like the YouTube video, but it's basically the words, the lyrics are basically, please stop. I don't like that. I'm feeling uncomfortable. I need more space. And then itHillary: Uh, Yeah.Laura: Not around me. Don't take it personally. It's just a boundary. That's a boundary. And my, not even three year old has like memorised this song and, you know, we're trying to practice like different context in which you might say something like that. And again, it could all go horribly wrong and backfire, but, you know, I think what I'm connecting this back to is just, you know, giving them the tools to express their voice to help solidify their body autonomy, to solidify their body boundaries.And, that feels like a really salient piece around maintaining that positive experience of embodiment that connection to their bodies. Not letting their body boundaries be violated, you know, with the caveat that sometimes we have to do that in a caring way, for hygiene and whatever else.So anyway, I went off on a bit of a monologue there. I'm not really sure what my point was, do you wanna bring it back, Hillary?Hillary: I love the place that we're in, in the conversation, which is looking at both how we protect in a few different ways, right? Because there is a way of protecting that is ‘I'm gonna honour your boundary because you said no, I'm gonna stop'. And there's also a kind of protecting, which, you know, like you said, around care practices and just the nuance and complexity of that, and I think it's important that we're making a space where we can talk about how those fit intentionally with each other, what they bring up in us as adults. And also then subsequently what we weren't given as kids.Because many of the times when these things are hard for us as parents, it's because they're new, because we're having to chart a new path and there is something kind of prophetic and transformational in being in the space that's uncomfortable and foreign. So I'm just appreciating, holding the complexity here.I think the last thing that I'll wanna say around embodiment in children is around creating experiences for free play, for being silly, for jumping, for, you know, unrestricted movement, for experiencing sensation and wide ranges of sensation like the, the developmental literature says that the more we encounter in a sensory capacity, the more ways that we learn to have mastery and agency in our bodies, the more autonomy, the more fullness, the more goodness we encounter in our bodies.So a wide range of activities, movement, spaces getting dirty, getting loud, being silly, playing, coordinated movements, right? Even being able to master a task because we practice something over and over and over again and get good at it, but not at the exclusion of free and unrestricted play, like just as many body experiences we can have.I think that that, you know, that's something that serves us well in our lives and so maybe that's a good piece of advice for parents who are really committed to having their kids be in figure skating and they do a lot of figure skating and over and over and over and over again. Like yes, there might be a sense of, um, mastery. But what about the spaces where there is novel movement or what about the spaces where there is unrestricted kind of free unobserved movement? Or maybe for parents who are really good at letting their kids be wild and free and unrestricted, where are the spaces where kids are learning a task and can feel competence in and through their bodies.And so just thinking about the spectrum and trying to create range, I think that that's, that's really important. It takes a little bit of thought on our part, but I think it goes a really long way.Laura: Yeah. I really appreciate that addition. And yeah, I've been thinking about these kids that I see around, they're always with their dad. I think it's their dad, at least I hope it's their dad. And they must be about, I don't know, like 9 and maybe 11, somewhere around there. And I fondly referred to dad as aggressive sports dad,Hillary: Oh, okay. Yes. I know the type. Okay.Laura: He's like, I see them like at the pool. I see them at the tennis court. I see them at the park. And the dad is like super militantly, like focused on like teaching them skills around sports, like, he's clearly really, really passionate about sports, but you can just see the kids like kind of, uh,Hillary: Mm-hmm.Laura: At how restrained and controlled and, um, kind of like meticulous they're being asked to be. And obviously I'm kind of projecting here like, you know, or using conjecture to make assumptions here, but it does feel like they just wanna run around and climb a tree or like jump.Hillary: Yes. Right, right.Laura: But yeah, we all know an aggressive sports dad. But Hillary, I'm really conscious of your time and I just have a couple quick questions I wanna ask you to wrap up. So the first is, I would love it if you could share a practice with us that you personally like or that you found in your work as a therapist that helps people with that sense of embodiment, with that sense of my body as my home.Hillary: Yeah, Yeah. Two really, really quickly. Uh, one, putting my hands on my body and talking to myself, greeting myself in the morning, in the evening, saying I'm so glad to be with you. I wanna care for you. Can you keep talking to me? Right. Whatever it is that we wanna say to build relationship with our bodily selves, like honouring my body as a subject, not just an object. And then the other one is dancing. I just love having music on and moving my body in a way that really helps me discharge excess energy or stress from the day. For anyone who's familiar with trauma work, we know that moving, shaking, activation in our major muscle groups, like that's actually a way to release energy that is lingering from stressful or demanding events.So there's that side of it, but then there's also the freedom and the pleasure and the sense of enjoyment and you know, how it invites me into self-expression and connection and a sense of yeah, just enjoying being a body. So touching my own body and talking to myself and dancing.Laura: Oh, I love both of those things, and they're definitely things that I try and, yeah, check in with as well. My last sort of serious interview question for you is who or what is nourishing you right now?Hillary: Mm. You know, just this week I had some really, really important conversations with my partner and he really listened to me and really tended to me, and there was something about feeling unshakable support and emotional attunement that felt nourishing to me on such a soul level, that I have to think of the relational. Again, that's my new kind of my therapist disposition and my discipline there. But I feel so nourished by deep and rich, attuned connection. It helps me feel seen and known and loved and safe and, um, nourished.Laura: I really love that. That's so special. I'm so glad that you have that.Hillary: Thank you. Me too.Laura: Okay, so just a fun question to wrap up. So, at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they're snacking on. So it can be a literal snack, it can be a podcast, a movie, a show, whatever you're into at the moment. Is there something fun you'd like to share with us?Hillary: Ugh. You know what? I'm having a real cake moment in my life right now. I think. I don't know what it is. Yes, I know.Laura: I thought For a second you were using cake as a euphemism, and I was a bit confused, but then I realised you meant actual cake. Okay.Hillary: Cake. Actual cake. I just had so many years where I really missed out and so we've been making up excuses for reasons to get a cake. So, um, you know, we're just having a lot of cake around here and I love it so much.I'm like having breakfast cake and after dinner cake and sometimes cake with lunch and just really, really enjoying all sorts of different kinds and qualities, and no grocery store cheap cake is beneath me, but I'm also, I like some of the fancy ones, so I'm just trying, trying cake.Laura: Oh, I love it. Breakfast cake.Hillary: Yes,Laura: Genius. That's a stroke of genius. Uh, real quick, I'll share mine. So I think yeah, this is really connected to what we have been talking about today, which is that I've recently taken Avery to toddler dance class, like a toddler ballet class, and I am super conscious of how toxic dance spaces can be in general, but this is a very cute, very safe space where they can just move their bodies in whatever way they like. And you know, I've taken him to a few different sort of dance space classes and things like that, and he really hasn't connected to it. But this class in particular, he was just kind of in his element, twirling and jumping and leaping. And he, you know, he asked if he could put on like the tutu skirt and he was just having the best time. So, um, super special to see that.Hillary: Yes, it sounds like it. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. That just brought me so much joy knowing about that and picturing him there.Laura: it's very, very, sweet. Hillary, could you please share with everyone how they can find out more about you and your work and where they can find you?Hillary: Yeah. You can find me online at hillarylmcbride.com,, on social media, Hillary Lianna McBride on Instagram or Hillary L McBride on Twitter, or maybe it's the other way around, I can never remember. Have a look at those names. Some combination of those names will get you somewhere to me and my work.And, then I've got books, wherever books are sold and podcasts, you can always search my name in the search tool in wherever you listen to podcasts. And both the podcasts that I have produced and the ones I've been on will show up.Laura: And we will link to all your social media and where to find your books and your podcast in the show notes so that, yeah, there won't be any confusion over where to find you.Hillary: Thank you.Laura: Hillary, it was so great to talk to you. I love your book, The Wisdom of Your Body. And I really recommend it to all my clients that I'm working with. So thank you so much for spending some time with us today.Hillary: It was my pleasure. I loved every minute of our conversation.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. 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*Content warning* - in this episode, we are talking about pregnancy loss and baby loss as well as experiences in the NICU and breastfeeding challenges. So if you're not in the headspace for that right now then please take care of yourself and do whatever you need to to look after yourself.In this episode, journalist, author and fellow Substacker Jennie Agg is joining me on the pod. Jennie has just published her first book, ‘Life, Almost: Miscarriage Misconceptions and a Search for Answers from the Brink of Motherhood' - an exceptional book which brings together her own experiences, along with expert interviews and reports on why we know so little about fertility and reproductive health. In our conversation, we focus on the erosion of trust that can happen in your body as a result of losing a pregnancy, and all the difficult emotions that can get stored in our bodies with nowhere to go to be held safely. We also talk a lot about body image and what has been healing for Jenny as she navigates a new relationship with her body post-partum. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Jennie's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Order Jennie's new book here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Jennie: And piece of that experience is it's, I remember, I mean, it's very difficult to not feel, I remember feeling very angry and very let down by my body. And it's very hard to, to reframe it. I think like I would, this is language that I used internally. It's not language I would use to somebody else or, you know, but you feel like your body has failed you. And I think it's very hard to reframe that as like you, it's very difficult to put a positive spin on that in any way, in the way that sometimes we're encouraged to you with things that are difficult, difficult experiences to do with our, our physical body. INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to another episode of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter? Today I'm talking to author and fellow Subtacker Jennie Agg, who has just written an exceptional book called ‘Life, Almost'.It weaves together Jennie's own experience with miscarriage and pregnancy loss with expert interviews and impeccable reporting on why we know so very little about fertility and reproductive health. In our conversation today, we're really focused on the erosion of trust that can happen in your body as a result of losing a pregnancy and all the difficult emotions that can get stored in our bodies with nowhere to go to be held safely.And this is in part because of how isolating the experience can be and how the healthcare system is not at all set up to adequately support people who experience baby loss either in the moment or going forward into a new pregnancy after loss. We also talk a lot about body image and what has been healing for Jennie as she navigates a new relationship with her body postpartum.I think it's a really lovely conversation and a really important one, but it goes with the content warning that we are talking about pregnancy loss and baby loss as well experiences in the NICU and breastfeeding challenges. So if you're not in the head space for this right now, then please take care of yourself and do whatever you need to to look after yourself.I know we've had a few authors promoting their books back to back recently. I promise that not all the guests this season will be promoting books. I think maybe we have one more. We will also be hearing from some clinicians and researchers later in the season. Just the way that it worked out with books coming out it ended up that some of those authors are appearing earlier in the season. But I also really wanted to support Jennie because she's been a really supportive cheerleader for me and my work. Some of you might already know that Jennie helps edit some of my essays on the newsletter, and her input is really valuable, and it means that there aren't as many spelling or grammatical mistakes on the copy that Jennie has edited.So even if trying to conceive or miscarriage aren't on your radar at the moment, I think this is a really important book for anyone who cares about reproductive rights and why we know so little about the health of women and folks with a uterus. It's not just about having a baby, but it's also connected to our autonomy and our collective body liberation.So again, that's why I wanted to share Jennie's work. It's really, really important and I hope you will check out the book.We'll get to Jennie in just a minute, but first I wanted to remind you that my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop is on Tuesday, the 21st of February. It's pancake day. Don't worry.It's not going to be just me giving you a bunch of useless tips and tricks. You know, that's not what I'm about. But we will explore your relationship with food a little bit and think about how you can support your kids to have a positive relationship with food and their body. I will give you some practical tools. Um, we will talk about developmental milestones and things like that, but my intention is really to help. You take the pressure off of feeding your kids and help you create a home that supports a healthy relationship to food and bodies. I've linked to the full description in the show notes. So you can check it out. It's 15 pounds, it will be on Zoom, and I'll have the recording available for a week after. So if you can't watch it live, you can watch it on playback. Plus you'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eater's Guide to share it with family, friends, childcare, schools, whoever is responsible for feeding your kids.And the last thing before we get to the episode. Just a quick reminder that Can I Have Another Snack is a reader supported publication. I'd love to bring you more deeply research pieces, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor, aka Jennie, and behind the scenes admin support, and a podcast editor as well.So if you are in a position to become a paid subscriber, then please consider it is five pounds or 50 pounds for the year, and if that's not accessible for you right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co uk, putting the word snacks in the subject line, and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. Please do not feel like you have to explain yourself or your situation. I trust that if you have the means to pay for a subscription and you value my work, then you will. And if you can't afford it right now, then um, maybe some point in the future you will be able to become a fully paid subscriber. But for now, just put snacks in the subject line and we'll hook you up with that comp subscription.All right, everyone. Here is my conversation with Jennie Agg.MAIN EPISODELaura: Jennie, can you start by telling us who or what you're nourishing right now?Jennie: Yeah, I can. So I'm Jennie. I'm a journalist and author, and I am nourishing myself, my husband, my two and a half year old Edward and three cats. And in nourishing, in the, the non-literal sense I am nourishing a writing career and specifically kind of branching out into writing books.Laura: I think you're being extremely modest right now, Jennie, I'm gonna be your, I'm gonna be your hype person for a sec.Jennie: Okay.Laura: So Jennie has a book as we're recording, Jennie's book is coming out in two weeks. Her first book. It's your first book, right?Jennie: Yeah, it's my first book. It's my first book.Laura: And. Yeah. By the time that everyone is listening to this, it will have just come out into the world. I wanna know how you, you know, where are we finding you? How are you feeling about it all? You've, you've been writing and putting your words out into the world for a long time. You've been writing very vulnerably for a long time, but does this feel different or are you just kind of like, oh, it's, it's more words going out into the world?Jennie: It definitely feels different. I mean, I never feel like cavalier or like comfortable with putting anything out, like even like sending out my newsletter, which I do every week. And before that, you know, I was writing a blog every week and I still, you know, pressing send still feels incredibly sort of panic inducing. But yeah, this does feel different. I mean it's a very personal book. And it feels, I guess it feels like the culmination as you said, I've been writing about pregnancy loss and my own experience with recurrent miscarriage and going on to have a baby. Like I've been writing about that for five years, six years now. Laura: I was thinking about this the other day, like way before you interviewed me for my first book, I'd come across your writing, maybe like in The Pool, RIP, or you know, some, something along those lines. And, and it was, it was one of the first pieces I'd ever read about miscarriage. And I remember being kind of like struck by it, obviously, because it's very personal and vulnerable, but also just thinking like, we don't, we don't talk about this.And so I remember, you know, even though babies weren't even on my radar at that point, thinking wow, what you're doing is really, really important work, and it feels like you've taken everything from the past, I dunno, five or six or however many years and you've put it into this new book.Jennie: Yeah. I mean that, and I guess that's what I've, I tried to do. I dunno if this is a really cliche thing to say but I, I wrote the book that I wanted to exist, like when I had my first miscarriage. And like, I wish I could say that the book answers all the questions that I had back then and that I still have now.And sometimes, like in kind of, delving into the, the science and interviewing various doctors and experts and historians about it, often the answer is we still don't know. And so the question is, why don't we know this? We need to do better really is the kind of thrust of the book really.And I think it's difficult for me to know exactly how far and how fast things have changed cuz I, you know, because I write about miscarriage and pregnancy loss and I am now kind of quite immersed in that world and community, it's difficult for me to know exactly how much things have actually changed.So when I had my first miscarriage in 2017 I just didn't, I didn't know anything about it. I really didn't think it was a thing that was going to happen to me. And oh, I should preface this by saying like, my background, I'm a health journalist, so there were lots of things that hadn't happened to me that I knew a little bit about.And okay, you never know exactly what something is like if you haven't been through it. But I really had no idea and I was really shocked when they'd kind of say, oh actually this is really common. And they sort of give you all these leaflets and they quote statistics at you and you're like, but hang on, they didn't tell me this when I went to my booking in appointment with the GP. It's not, you know, I've been reading the NHS website advice saying at eight, nine weeks, or, you know, look into what maternity leave you're entitled to start thinking about, I don't know, when you want to start your leave and you are kind of given things on your next scan and the 20 week scan, like right from the word go. And there's very much this presumption that your pregnancy will continue.Laura: And it's a kind of a linear, straightforward process. And you go from A to B to C.Jennie: Yeah, exactly. And I think miscarriage is kind of there in that it's, you are told don't eat this because there's a, you know, soft cheese and listeria and risk of miscarriage and, you know, there are lot, lots and lots of things that you are told to do or not to do.And perhaps miscarriage risk is mentioned, but it, rightly or wrongly, I think I felt going into that first pregnancy that miscarriage was something they kind of understood. They knew why it happened, and if you followed the rules would be okay. And I, you know, I did follow the rules. Then this, it kind of everything was sort of turned on its head really in that they go, oh, it's just one of those things. It happens sometimes. It happens quite a lot actually. And that was, it just kind of blew everything open for me, really. So I wrote about it for the newspaper where I worked at the time. And then as kind of things unfolded I went on to have two more miscarriages that same year, some medical tests which were inconclusive, and then I had another miscarriage after that. I mean, that's a very, that's a very condensed version. But I wrote about it. I wrote about it in the magazines and newspapers, and then also I, I started blog and yeah. And then I had a kind of period of time off from trying to conceive because it becomes very all consuming particularly when there, perhaps we'll come back to this, but when there were kind of no answers of what, why something has happened or whether it will happen again, or, you, it, it kind of takes over your life because you are, you are sort of looking for lots of things you can do yourself, whether that's your diet or your exercise or life, just sort of lifestyle things.Is it stress? Is it my job? Is it, you know, all those things. The answer to all of those is probably no but it, you kind of feel like it might be, it must be worth trying. Like, you know, you, you feel like you need to try absolutely everything. And actually that becomes quite a difficult way to live.So we kind of took quite a long period out from trying to conceive and when we did feel ready again I got pregnant for a fifth time in 2019. And this again, is a very condensed , a very condensed version. But I did, I did go on to have my son. Yeah. There was a question that, I dunno whether I've answer answered or not.Laura: Well I think I was just reflecting on sort of the, you know, how I first came across your work and, and just, it, it just felt so, I don't want this to sound like really belittling, but it felt really, really brave and courageous to put that out into the world. And, you know, I think I had read your account of your first miscarriage, and this kind of like realisation that, okay, well first of all, I didn't expect this to me, no expect this to happen to me, nobody prepared me for this to be even a possibility. And secondly, the, the recognition that we don't know what, you know, we, we know very little about why this happens to you. And then it sounds as though from there, when you had recurrent miscarriage, you know, you did the, I know that the NHS has this sort of like, what seems to me to be, what's the word that I'm looking for you? The, the rule notJennie: Oh, like it's com-, It's very arbitrary.Laura: the arbitrary, yes.Jennie: Yeah. It's a very arbitrary rule. And basically they will only if it's first trimester miscarriages, they'll only investigate for possible kind of other medical causes after three miscarriages which, like there are reasons for it, which I, which I understand. Although there have been, there have been calls recently, to adopt a slightly more kind of grade, I think it's called a kind of the graded, graded model of care. And so there would be some follow up after one miscarriage, some sort of preliminary tests after two, and then kind of what they do now after three.And like within all of that, the, the recommendation is that there would be kind of some sort of psychological support if people need it, which, and so far kind of the government has not, has not taken up this recommendation from lots of scientists and campaigning groups. Not a surprise. And I, and it's really tricky to talk about this at the moment and to kind of talk about how inadequate the provision is and the kind of support is for people going through miscarriage because, you know, health service is so stretched, so that's not a, you know, that's not a criticism of people working in hospitals or early pregnancy units or gps. It's a, you know, this is a moreLaura: systemicJennie: systemic like criticism. Yeah, I mean, there's so much we could talk about, like, I think, I can't remember the exact figure, but I tried to find out in the book how many early pregnancy units open seven days a week. Like open all hours basically. And I can't remember there, there aren't really any, there might be, it's single, like it's single figures.Laura: MmJennie: Like two or four or something that I could find in the whole of the UK, and so, some are only open like two hours Monday to Friday and it's like yeah.Laura: And I just like, this is the, the sort of feeling that I'm left with is that once something, you know, when you experience a miscarriage, or even if you're just unsure in those early weeks and months, if everything is okay, it's such a lonely, isolating experience because there's nowhere to go. And when we have, you know, when these institutions that are supposed to support us, care for us, look after us, you know, are, when they, when they're literally only open two hours a day, what message does that send about, you know, how much our experiences are valued. And I think that that kind of like, you know, the fact that we don't get any kind of investigation or even really support at all until there have been three recurrent first trimester miscarriages just goes to show again that, you know, that, that, that, that experience, like we're, we're sort of left to deal with it on our own.Jennie: Yeah. And ILaura: No one to help us kind of like yeah. Move through that.Jennie: No, it really invalidates it, I think, and it sort of sets up this hierarchy in that you're like, you are, you'd kind of, well, certainly how I felt was that, I really believed I was, that first time I really believed I was going to have a baby, and, you know, all those kind of things you think about and things you imagine and plan for that was all very real and was happening and was underway. And I was, you know, I'd been pregnant for nearly the first miscarriage happened just before the 12-week scan.So, you know, I'd been pregnant forLaura: Yeah.Jennie: a few months, but at that point like, I knew about it with all that that entails. And then suddenly it was not happening. And the reaction was kind of completely the opposite to how I was feeling in that the reaction was, this happens all the time. And then you are, you are kind of told that they're not gonna. they're not gonna ask you. They, I mean, I was really shocked that they didn't even ask me any questions. Kind of like, what had you been doing when it started? Or like, and that's, you know, that has its own problems in that then that you start to think it must be something I did. And in a way, that's why they don't ask those questions,Laura: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: but at the same time, you, the lack of interest or curiosity in why this happened to you when on paper there shouldn't have been any issue is really disorienting.And also then it, like you don't know how to frame your experience. So I was like, oh, right. So should I just be, should I just be okay? Should I be bouncing back from this quicker than I am? And I was, you know, it, it was, certainly that first time was very physically traumatic. And thenLaura: Yeah.Jennie: also it felt, it felt like a full on bereavement, really. So I would've struggled to say that in my real life at the time. Like, I would've felt that I shouldn't claim that, that that would, you know, and I think part of that comes from the fact that they don't, they don't and can't investigate until you've had more miscarriages. It's like, well then that's when it's, like quote unquote a proper issue. That's when you are allowed to feel all these complex feelings. And that's when, you know, you can lay claim to grief or a sort of Yeah. Any of those things. And I, it took, it really me, like, I guess what I'm saying is it really messed me up psychologically. And it makes, it kind of encourages you, I think, to push down what you are actually feeling and to kind of minimise your own grief and anger and shock and, and it's completely, it's completely the opposite of what actually now they're starting to learn through scientific studies about how people feel and how that experience affects people.You know, it's a significant proportion. I think it's about one in five people who have an early pregnancy loss. So that might be a first trimester miscarriage it might be ectopic pregnancy, experienced symptoms like PTSD. And it's, it's, and partners as well. Like it's not quite as, as high of proportion. It's like 1 in 12, I think a kind of secondary study to that study found, which is, is shocking. Like this is this huge, that's such a massive finding.Laura: And it sounds as though you know that, that that study was measuring people who met some sort of like clinical threshold for PTSD or PTSD,Jennie: yeah, yeah,Laura: And what about everybody else who is experiencing these really complex, really painful emotions and they just have to go to work the next day?Jennie: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, and they, I think from memory, that study does, does talk as well about how within that there are a lot of people who might not have met that clinical criteria for PTSD but there was, you know, anxiety and depression were really common. Which again, and you are just expected to pick up and, and start again and, you know, try to get pregnant again, which is a whole other. And this is really, I think a large part of my book and what I write in the book is my experience of pregnancy after loss and after miscarriages and how that is actually, it's a completely different experience. Pregnancy without that knowledge. And I, I still don't know that that's something we're really that familiar with. Like outside of very particular support communities.Laura: Yeah. How do you, I mean, there's so many things that my, my brain is going to here but there's, you know, sort of this question of, well, how do you sort of raise awareness of the fact that miscarriage can be a possibility without then creating a lot of fear and anxiety in people trying to conceive? And then also this, this big question of how do you support people through a pregnancy when either they've had, you know, pregnancy complications previously, or experienced baby loss or miscarriage or, you know, god forbid, like the loss of a, a young child, you know, what kind of support needs to be put into place?And, it sounds like. A, it's taking, it's taking science a really long time to catch up with the fact that people might have really difficult feelings and, and feel really ambivalent about, about going into a, another pregnancy. And yeah, the, even, even once we've kind of like identified that that's the case, what then is the support?Jennie: Yeah. What do we actually do about this? Yeah.Laura: Yeah. And the thing that I'm, I'm really curious to talk to you about, because it's kind of a thread that runs through this podcast and the newsletter, which is around, you know, when you experience something like this where you know your body doesn't sort of, it doesn't act in the way that we expect it to and want it to.And, and maybe, you know, we, we feel let down or betrayed by our bodies. And, and I can sort of speak from experience here in terms of like birth not going to, to plan and you know, early experiences with, with feeding that there's, there's a lot of, of grief and you know, that can be a very painful experience.And I'm just, I'm curious to know what, what your experiences were around body trust and maybe body image more broadly. You know, having gone through these recurrent miscarriages.Jennie: It's a really. What's the right word? It's a huge factor, I think. And piece of that experience is, I mean, it's very difficult to not feel, I remember feeling very angry and very let down by my body. And it's very hard to reframe it. I think like I would, this is language that I used internally. It's not language I would use to somebody else or, you know, but you feel like your body has failed you. And I think it's very hard to reframe that as like you, it's very difficult to put a positive spin on that in any way, in the way that sometimes we're encouraged to you with things that are difficult, difficult experiences to do with our physical body. So, you know, and it's, it's hard I think in the, you know, my body, I didn't look pregnant to the outside world, which, you know, for some people that will be their experience of, of pregnancy loss. You know, they will have announced their pregnancy and been visibly pregnant. And then that is, it's a whole other element of this.But for me, other people might not have seen it, but, you know, my body had, had changed and I was, and I think, I mean, maybe it's because it's, you are hyper aware, I think, in pregnancy particularly, or I certainly was in that first trimester with my first pregnancy. I mean, and then certainly in later pregnancies, you are hyper aware of every symptom or twinge that you have or kind of, and, and you feel different anyway, right?Like, you don't feel very well, you feel very tired. There's a lot going on. Like as in, it's a very, it's a very physical experience that first trimester, even though we kind of still have this convention of like not announcing a pregnancy then, so you kind of do all that in private,Laura: Mm-hmm.Jennie: andLaura: And then you emerge in the second trimester as this glowingJennie: Yeah, yeah. Like,Laura: The fantasy that we're sold, isn'tJennie: And it, it's very difficult, I think, and it, you've, what do I mean? I think I felt so resentful. I felt so resentful of, you know, what I perceived as kind of weight gain and changes to my body, which, you know, like I look back now and I think that was, my brain had definitely exaggerated the reality of that. And I think that's, that's complicated, isn't it? It's that sort of idea of like, oh, I, I feel, I feel fat today. It's like, what does that, what does that really mean? Particularly, you know, talking as somebody who is straight sized.Laura: It feels very familiar, I think what you're talking about. You know, that we, we often put all the difficult, raw emotions that we're experiencing, the grief, the trauma, the stress, the anxiety, all of it onto. , you know, we, we distill that because, because it feels really hard to say all of those things, the, the, you know, the resentment as well, which is such a great word.I think we, we reduce it down to a feeling of being fat when, you know, like you said, that's not, that's not a feeling. And our bodies are, are holding all of these complex feelings and emotions that that we sometimes find hard to, especially if, you know, we haven't announced our pregnancies to the world, or especially if we don't have a space to go to, like a therapist or, you know, someone to hold and contain that for us, we, we kinda store it in our bodies and it, and it shows up in these really unwelcome ways.I dunno if that speaks toJennie: Yeah, it, it, it really does. I think, cuz there, something I remember from certainly that first time and then also after subsequent pregnancy losses, the fear of being mistaken for pregnant was huge and if you think about it in a purely rational, like, logical way that it would make sense if somebody thought I, like, I had, you know, in some cases I had literally been pregnant two days previously. Like that was not, and yet somehow that was all really bound up with a sense of kind of, loss of control and kind of moral failing and, and it, you know, it, it, it's almost certainly informed by all the things we're told about postpartum bodies and how women should, you know, you're celebrated for looking pregnant up until the moment you give birth. And then you should, your body should like bear no trace of having carried and birthed a baby, like, you know, in that incredibly unrealistic way. So I'm, you know, there's, that's almost certainly a part of it, but it's that idea of somehow I would feel ashamed to be mistaken for pregnant when I mean, and obviously like that it's just, there's the pure, like that's a painful thing because it's having to admit or reflect on the fact that I wasn't pregnant and I really wanted to be. But at the same time that sort of focus on your body and how you look and particularly like how your stomach looks is it's hard for me. Like, to me it's hard not to see that in the context of all the various narratives around women's bodies and body size and yeah snapback culture, whatever it is. So yeah, that definitely, I can see, I can see that that's probably what was going on there.Laura: Yeah, I mean, I don't mean to directly compare experiences because I know that losing a baby is, is absolutely not the same as the experience that I have. Yet there are, there are some things that feel very relatable to in what you're saying and I'm thinking about a time when Avery was in the NICU and we were getting a taxi up to the hospital and I still looked very, very pregnant cuz I had just given birth and the, there was an assumption by the taxi driver that I was in labor going to the hospital to give birth or that, you know, that I was very close to my due date. And, you know, there was this big smiley face and this reception of like, oh, and, and, and, and it was the same when, when I, you know, when when I give birth, there were all these congratulations being thrown at me. And I was like, but my baby is, look at him like he's really ill. And I'm gonna get, I'm getting really emotional. Sorry Jennie, butJennie: no. It's okay.Laura: I just, there was just this visceral rejection of that congratulations. And at that time I can see it differently now, but at that time it, I was chalk up to the failure of my body, you know, the failure to, you know to have the birth and the labor that I wanted to have and sort of, you know, was blaming myself for effectively putting him in the NICU which is, you know, I've done a birth debrief, that's not the case.Right. like, I can rationally say that now, but you know, there was, there's something there that I think you're speaking to with, you know, the changes in your body and how your body looks and how something is perceived maybe to be this really positive thing like a pregnancy, like giving birth, but that actually something else is concealed behind that something very, very different. And your reality not matching up to what's maybe presenting outwardly, if that makes sense.Jennie: Yes. Yeah, it does make sense. It does make sense. I think that's a really good way of thinking about it. And then for me, I think the kind of, and this has been a sort of then been a thread that's gone through kind of all of my subsequent pregnancies. And then going on to have my son and to be a parent, and those kind of early experiences of parenting is that real fear of kind of something unknown that's wrong with your body because, that's kind of what that experience leads you to because there was never any, and this is the case for, I think it's about 50% of people who have recurrent miscarriages, as in, so people who have medical tests for multiple miscarriages, most, at least half, never, like, there's never any kind of specific diagnosis. And I think, I talk about this in the book, recurrent miscarriage is kind of thrown around as a label, as if it's a diagnosis, but it's not.Laura: And as if it's like a homogenous experience,Jennie: And like actually it's not like there'll be lots of different, potentially lots of different reasons. And most of the time, probably a lot of those reasons we don't know what they are yet. And most of the time you, you won't be given any kind of anything concrete that they're say, well, you know that this blood marker or whatever it is. Absolutely every test I had and there were many, lots of blood tests and then sort of scans of like my pelvic anatomy and the shape of my womb, that sort of thing all came back completely normal.There's nothing in my kind of menstrual cycle history or anything like that would, that would point to anything hormonal or yeah, and I think, so then there's I think quite logical fear of like, but clearly this isn't, clearly this shouldn't be happening.Laura: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Like this is too many in a row. It's too like the, the explanation, which is really what you are, you are sort of encouraged to think, which is that this is just bad luck.Like that doesn't feel very satisfactory. And I mean, it might be true, but I also think we're a little bit over-reliant on that idea that it, that it might, that it, it is true. And so that, that leads you to, there's something in my body that, or in the way that my body works that we don't really understand yet, that they, you know, don't know how to fix was where my brain went.And that that's very difficult to put aside. Even, and so, I mean something coming back to kind of how that's carried through. So when Edward was born and I was trying to feed him and kind of those early days of breastfeeding, which were difficult, not, I don't think in the grand scheme of things, I don't think we had that difficult a time.You know, he wasn't, very glad to say he wasn't in the NICU or anything like that. So we were able to try it right from the beginning. And I know that's not true for everybody. But you know, it's a hard thing. It's a hard thing to doLaura: Yeah. Regardless of, you know, how your baby came into the world, it's, it's hard.Jennie: Like even in the best of circumstances, like I think it's a hard thing to do and it's a new skill to learn all those things.So he, and kind of in spite of feeling like we'd sort of got the hang of it and it was kind of working, like his weight dropped at those kind of first checks that they do with the midwife when he was home. And then so they sort of go through all their things and they say, right, well let me watch you feed him.And they kind of do their observations and they looked at him and they kind of, and again, this is, this is something I write about a little bit in the book, but they said, It's like several midwives and then a feeding consultant said, well, it doesn't, it all seems fine. You're doing everything right. There doesn't seem to be a reason. You know, like positive things that should be like in other circumstances will be very good news. But you're like, but you are telling me his weight is dropping too much. And that really like hit some kind of internal alarm bell for me because it was just that I possibly didn't even realize I had, which was like, there is something wrong with me that can't be fixed.Or there's something wrong with him and you, like we don't know enough to know what it is. And kind of knowing that like being told there's nothing wrong isn't always very comforting news. Like that kind of prior knowledge of that. Made that in an incredibly stressful time. I mean, the, the, like, the punchline to this is the feeding consultant who was very kind and gave me lots of helpful like practical advice said, did you take a picture of the scales at the hospital? And I was like, no, of course I didn't. I was, I was being stitched up. She was like, they, cuz they write, I dunno if this is true for every hospital, but our hospital wrote down the weight in grams, so it's like a, it's that right grams. So it's like a four, it's like a four digit numberLaura: yeah.Jennie: Said sometimes they just, they might have just switched likeLaura: Like a two and a three or,Jennie: Yeah, exactly.And so actually what would've been like a, you know, a couple of percentage drop in weight was actually like 13% or whatever. And like he, you know, there were never any other outward signs that he was struggling. Like,Laura: Yeah.Jennie: So, like, I can kind of laugh about it now, but at the time it really felt, it was a real reminder that, that that runs really deep now that fear of kind of, it's fear of basically it's fear of the unknown, isn't it? But it's, it's so kind of rooted in my body and kind of by extension now Edward's body. Does that make sense?Laura: It makes so much sense and,I mean, I could and maybe one day I will write an entire book about feeding babies in theJennie: oh, I would buyLaura: early daysJennie: that book, Laura. I would buy thatLaura: And kind of like the things we say particularly around, you know, weight loss in those early days and, weight regain and feeding and, ugh, there's so much that happens in that short period of time that can, that can create anxiety and fear that carries through that, you know, that sets the tone for that feeding relationship.Like when I'm working with parents and, you know, there's someone ha-, you know, their child has some challenges around feeding, like I can, you can trace that line back to some horrific thing that uh, you know, a flippant comment that a healthcare professional has said to them about, you know, not gaining enough weight or eating too much is the other, you know, like you can never just get the, the, the perfect balance.Right? Right. And, and, and so the genesis of a lot of parents fears and concerns, like it, it comes back to that point. And I think, you know what a health visitor maybe isn't so cognizant of, is all of your backstory and the, the, you know, all of the challenges and, and the, the pain and the grief and everything that you're carrying into that experience with your child.So they're giving you this, you know, what they think is just a factual thing, which turns out, in your case it wasn't even factual, butJennie: No. No. And he was, and he was fine. Like,Laura: And that's the thing, they don't look at the baby. They don't ever look at the baby. They look at the chart. I mean, I'm doing a disservice to midwives and health. Not all health visitors and midwives, but you look at a number and you don't look at the broader context. Like, oh, you know, how are they feeding?Do they look like, you know, do they have like chubby arms and legs and, you know, what are their parents' statures and body sizes? And like, how does that factor into this? So like, yeah, there's, there's, yeah, I, I could go on and on and on about that, but I think yeah, like not taking into context the broader, you know, like fears and anxieties and pressures and, and feelings.The, the conflicting feelings that you have you know, as a result of, of how, you know, in your case how Edward came into the world and how you feel about your own body. I, I don't know, it just feels like there needs to be a shift in how we are yeah. Like how we are caring for, for people in the whole entire perinatal period.Jennie: Yeah, I mean, definitelyLaura: I think, I mean, yeah, that goes without saying right? But, I feel like I kind of lost the thread and just got up on my soapbox a little bit there. And I'm, I'm curious to know, there are so many other things, Jennie that we, we kind of like said that we would talk about that we're not gonna have time for, but I think what feels important to, to maybe think about is, you know, you've talked about feeling let down by your body and, and the sort of broken trust. You know, I think we, we all kind of go into pregnancy by and large, or going go into trying to conceive with like just this implicit trust that our bodies are gonna do the things that we would like them to do in the way that we would like them to, to do them.And then, you know, what you're talking about is just this bit by bit by bit erosion of that trust, you know, first through recurrent miscarriage, which, you know, in and of itself that's multiple layers of, of erosion of trust and then into, into breastfeeding. And, you know, I'm sure there are other elements of parenting and just being a body in the world.But I'm curious, you know, how, or if, or you know, what regaining trust in your body looks like, feels like, if it even feels possible. Yeah, I'm, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. In the, in the like five minutes we've got, got left.Jennie: Ooh. Yeah. Okay. I have a really pithy easy answer to this. No, I don't. But I do think it is possible. So there are a few things. So I think at least initially there was kind of the, I had the opposite feeling that I'd felt after my miscarriages and being very worried about being mistaken for pregnancy. So kind of getting, first of all, in pregnancy, getting further along.And I, like, I had a very anxious, very difficult pregnancy in lots of ways, like, and I. It was a very difficult time psychologically. But at the same time, there were definitely kind of quite healing, I think is probably the right word, things in, in that sort of physical evidence of pregnancy and kind of seeing my body change and feeling a baby move and going to term. That was really, that was very healing.It might not always have felt like that at the time, but like now I kind of look back and I think I can see that it, it was, and I like, I liked that, like, I liked kind of seeing myself pregnant and I liked kind of when I felt sort of ready, which was quite far on into pregnancy. Like I really liked buying maternity clothes and you know, things that, and even like if the maternity clothes were a bit crap, like , like, I kind of like, that was quite nice in itself.It's like, oh I would not choose this dress in real life. But you know,Laura: It fits. It fits over.Jennie: It fits, it fits and it's comfortable and like it's not too hot or whatever it was. And kind of recognising those feelings that you kind of, I would used to hear other pregnant women complain about and think, I'm so jealous of you.Like, getting to experience those things myself was really kind of, I dunno if that sounds perverse, but that was very healing. I was lucky in that I had a relatively positive birth experience. Like I had an induction, which I know is notLaura: Oh, no, that's not a positive birth experience, Jennie. That's the-Jennie: And like again, I mean God I wish I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it, should I, cuz that'sLaura: It's a whole thing. Yeah.Jennie: like, I mean, and it's literally a chapter in the book.Laura: God, it's so,Jennie: But actually I had a really positive birth experience like in the, possibly in the sense that it exceeded my expectations and that was, you know, that was good. I'm, so, I'm very aware that I'm kind of saying that to somebody who had the opposite experience and I hope that's not,Laura: Oh, no, no, no. I'm honestly, I'm so pleased when people say like, actually it didn't all go tits up and feel okay aboutJennie: Yeah. And, so that was, you know, that was and then, oh, this is what I was going to say. So the other thing was I had, after Edward was born and I was still like visibly very, like I looked what we would consider to be a pregnant body, but really it's just a, like, I had a baby two weeks ago, three months ago body like I, I didn't have that same like, oh God, I hope no one mistakes me from pregnant. Because I was like, I was there, I had Edward with me most of the time, like, and we weren't really going out that much anyway because of lockdown and things. But so that was really nice being like, well, yeah, I looked like I just had a baby cuz I just had a baby.And that was a kind of, that was a nice like it was a kind of, felt like a correction perhaps. It gets more complicated, that relationship with my body as time went on in a sort of more superficial sense and like a, I guess a body image for want of a better phrase sense. You know, like when my body still look different at nine months, like I have a particular loathing for those nineLaura: Yeah.Jennie: nine months out pictures like I.Laura: Well, you knowJennie: I know I know, I know, for some people, I know for some people that's just like fun. And not everybody who shares those pictures is a fitness influencer or whatever, but I, yeah, I dunno. They, I can't, they, they do something to me. And I think, what else do I think? So I think now that I'm kind of two years, two and a half years on from having a baby I think the thing that's been this is, it's perhaps quite a low key thing to say, like helps rebuild that trust. But it's just that it's a little bit of I've had a period of like stability, I guess, in my body. Like I'm not breastfeeding anymore. I haven't been for, for a long time. I'm not actively trying to conceive, I've not, you know, I've not had a miscarriage since Edward was born.Like that just period of letting my body just be and for it not to be not,Laura: I guess there are no expectationsJennie: Yeah, no, expectations is a really, yeah, I was gonna say like, no, like nasty surprises, but yeah, no expectations of it to be doing anything other than like, I don't know, letting me sit at my desk and work and, you know, theLaura: being, yeah.Jennie: plodding run at park run or, you know, whatever. Just like be, exactly just being. And it feels a little bit like, so we had a period of about a year off from trying to conceive. That was a quite a healing time and I'd really resisted it for such a long time. I'd really resisted it because I felt we just needed to kind of get through and, you know, try again and try again.But actually that time to just not be worrying about what I was eating or drinking or, you know, all those things was really it, I was quite skeptical that it, that I would make me feel better like that just, just doing nothing would make me feel better. And actually it did, and it's been the same postpartum as well, like,Laura: Mm.Jennie: But that's not always what you want to hear when you are in the kind of the middle of those, like ruptures in how you relate to your body, which like, that's difficult.Laura: And, and it's interesting that you used the word rupture there because it's, it's what was going through my head as well, that, you know, the these perturbations in our body you know, whether it's because of, you know, trying to conceive or the, the, whether it, you know, it's miscarriage, pregnancy itself, giving birth, breastfeeding, all of these, you know, just yeah perturbations in our body, you know, they can be, not miscarriage obviously, but, you know, pregnancy, breastfeeding can be really positive connecting experiences for our body and they can also really disconnect us and, and, and, and make our bodies feel not not quite as safe. Yeah. We, we've, we've maybe feel more disconnected in those periods and, and also it can be both at the same time.And and I think, yeah, I'm thinking about this from the perspective of, of being embodied, of being in our bodies, of, of not being separate from our bodies that, you know, these milestones, these landmarks, I suppose can, can both take us in and out of our bodies. And usually, and, and I think that's why it's such a head fuck, right?Because,Jennie: yeah, yeah.Laura: You go, you're going back and forth. You're like, do I wanna be in my body? Do I wanna be out? It,Jennie: yeah. Yeah. And like on a almost like hourly basis sometimes, likeLaura: And, and then, and then it sounds like what you're, what you're sort of, where you're at at the moment is like, just letting my body be, or letting your body be has, has helped you kind of come back to it in a sense.And I, and I know it's not, that's a, a nice simple narrative, but, and it's not quite that simple, but, but that there has been some healing, some catharsis, some yeah, reconnecting that, that has taken place for you in just yeah, letting your body be.Jennie: Yeah, definitely, definitely.Laura: Well, Jennie, that feels like a really nice note to wrap this up on. So before we go, I would like to ask you who or what is nourishing you right now?Jennie: So the obvious one is my husband Dan. He, yeah, he just makes sure, particularly at the moment when work stuff and kind of book publicity stuff has been quite overwhelming. Like he's made sure that I'm not staying up until midnight at my computer, and yeah, that I stop and eat my dinner and just basic, boring, basic things like that.But also something I was thinking about, in terms of like bringing this book out into the world is the thing that that's kind of sustained me, I guess, is all the kind of little ways that people have been supportive of it. So whether that's like you inviting me on this podcast or kind of newspaper editors I've worked for before being like, oh, will you write a piece about your book?Or like, so this is, this just happened at the weekend. I gave a copy of the book to one of my very close friends, and he has very deliberately put it on his bookshelf behind like, so he does a lot of meetings from home. He's like, I'm gonna put it on my bookshelf so everyone will see it. And I was like, that's the sweetest thing.Laura: Cute.Jennie: Yeah, exactly. So yeah. And just little things like that are really, really nice. And I've had a couple of messages from people being like I've, I've just found your blog, or I just found your Instagram and I've pre-ordered your book. And yeah, it's just nice. It's not like, it doesn't, it's something about all of those things together is very, like it's a, it's a very vulnerable book.I think I need to kind of accept that that's the case. And I think this has been a nice, like, balancing counterbalance with that is that actually lots of people have been very supportive and yeah, that's nourishing, I think in biggest sense.Laura: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I, I know certainly you and I have talked about vulnerability hangovers before.Jennie: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, they're real. And I, I guess, yeah, I don't know. The one from this book might be horrendous. It's gonna be like a, I dunno, difficult to know how it'll feel, we'll see.Laura: But having those kind of reminders that actually, although it's difficult, it, though it's incredibly difficult subject matter, that this will be really healing and cathartic and supportive for a lot of people who have been through something similar. And it sounds like that's the, the sort of little bits of recognition that you're getting and, and yeah, just the.Jennie: I think that's it. It's those like little moments of, we support this. Like we want, we think this message needs to be out there. Like, we've got you. Like that's really nice. It's just a really nice, it's a nice thing.Laura: Yeah. For anyone who's listening who has found this episode useful or any of Jennie's work useful, please drop us a comment to show a little bit of appreciation for Jennie. Alright. Before I let you go, I need to know what you are snacking on right now, so it can be a literal snack, like my one is this week. Or a podcast, a book, a show. Just something that you're really into at the moment and that you wanna share with the audience. So what are you snacking on right now, Jennie?Jennie: Oh, okay. So I really wanted to have like a good literal snack and I've kind of failed completely, but like, I don't want this to be like one of those like food diaries that go viral and it's like my treat is an almond milk cappuccino. Like that's not what this is intended to be. But for various reasons, I had some leftover chocolate oat milk in my fridge and I was like, I don't know what to do with this. Like the thing I was gonna use it for, I ended up not making. And then the other day I'd run out of other milk of any kind. I was like, I know, I'll put it in my coffee. And it's,Laura: Ooh.Jennie: It's great.Laura: Can I be clear? Are we talking about chocolate Oatly?Jennie: Yes. Do you know if that's controversial?Laura: No, no, no, no, no, no. I was just about to say, I use that to make ice lolls for Avery, blend it up with a bit of banana, a peanut butter,Jennie: That's a very good idea.Laura: Really delicious. So if you ever have, you know, like dregs in the carton and like you are not sure what to do with it, they make good ice lollies too.Jennie: That is a genius, so yeah, I've been having a lot like my kind of accidental homemade mocha. Yeah, so that's good. That's been a good, like, it's not really a snack, is it? It's a drink.Laura: Yes. Let's be clear that is, that is not a meal replacement option. NoJennie: No, no, no. But it is delicious and it has been cheering me up actually as I've been working. It's like so yeah, that's good. And I will have to try and make some ice lollies with it.Laura: That sounds delicious. Mine, mine is also a food related thing. So I, this week I made some vegan millionaire shortbread. Do you know, like Carnation condensed milk?Jennie: Yes.Laura: Okay. So like super retro.Jennie: Yeah. But it makes,Laura: yeah, they've got a vegan version now and they have a recipe on their website for like vegan millionaire shortbread. Like, it's not, it's not a new recipe or anything like that. In fact, my friend Izy Hossack, the cookbook author and food stylist you might have heard of her, she like styled one of their recipes for her Instagram like, ages and ages ago. And that's how I found out about it. And I've been making it like periodically ever since.And then Dave got a bee in his bonnet about having it the other day, like on a Monday night. So I had to like, try, like after I did the childminder pickup, like went to go and get all the ingredients from the shop and yeah, made the whole thing and it was I mean they helped as well, but it was delicious. And we have been enjoying Millionaire Shortbread so I'll link to the recipe in the shownotes.Jennie: Oh yeah, that sounds good.Laura: Jennie, before you go, could you please let everyone know where they can find you and your work, and more importantly, where they can get hold of your book.Jennie: Yes, absolutely I am. I am on social media, mostly on Instagram. I am there as @JennieMonologues, and it's Jennie with an ie. And my book Life Almost: Miscarriage Misconceptions and a Search for Answers from the Brink of Motherhood is out now and it's available, it should be available anywhere that you buy your book. So it's on Amazon, but it's also on Bookshop.org and Waterstones. And yeah. If it's not in a bookshop and you go look for ask them for it. Please. That would be, yeah, thank you.Laura: I will make sure to link to your Substack and links,Jennie: Yes. Thank you. Thank you.Laura: Yeah, I'll link to everything in the show notes and the transcript as well so that people can get ahold of your book. Thank you so much, Jennie, and really appreciate this conversation, and I'm really excited for your book to be out in the world.Jennie: Thank you.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe
Hey team! Welcome to episode three of the CIHAS pod, season 2. This week, I'm joined by Dr. Emma Svanberg - clinical psychologist, speaker and campaigner with expertise in attachment and perinatal psychology - AKA Mumologist on IG. In this episode, we focus on some of the stories that we bring to parenting, and the socially constructed ideas we have about parenting. We talk about how sometimes looking for all the advice and answers actually takes us farther away from what we're looking for, and I ask Emma why she thinks we're so drawn to advice from so-called parenting experts. Finally, we talk about how we can sift through all the noise of parenting advice, and find what's best for us and for our kids and learn to leave the rest. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Emma's here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Emma: If we are stuck on that idea that this is, you know, the kinda cognitive, that intellectual idea that this is what should happen, it becomes so hard to see our child's experience of what it is that we're trying to do. So again, you know, being able to base those things on the relationship. You know what, what did it feel like when I have prepared this food for my child and they have refused it, or actually they're disgusted by it? How does that make me feel? what does that touch on for me as a parent? And often there are such complex issues with that.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to another episode of Can I Have Another Snack podcast, where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Emma Svanberg. You may know her better as Mumologist on Instagram. Emma is a clinical psychologist, speaker and campaigner with expertise in attachment and perinatal psychology. She's co-founder of Make Birth Better and founded the Psychology Collective in 2019, which is a team of practitioners offering psychological support and guidance for the whole family.Today we are gonna be talking about Emma's new book, Parenting for Humans, which is out next month and is available to pre-order now. Now, before you get totally freaked out, this book isn't a book that tells you how to be a better parent or to set up new standards or expectations for how you should parent. Rather, the point of the book is to understand how you were parented and all the experiences that you bring to your parenting with the hope of getting to know yourself better and therefore understand what you are bringing to your relationship with your kid. So Emma and I discuss what some of the stories are that we bring to parenting about what we've learned, about what a parent should be from our own experiences, but also what are socially constructed ideas about parenting.We talk about how sometimes looking for all the advice and answers actually takes us further away from what we're looking for. And I ask Emma why she thinks we're so drawn to advice from so-called parenting experts. Finally, we talk about how we can sift through all the noise of parenting advice and find what's best for us and our kids, and learn to just leave the rest.So we'll get to Emma in just a minute, but first I wanted to remind you that my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop is on Tuesday, the 21st of February. Don't worry, it's not going to be me giving you a bunch of useless tips and tricks, but we will explore your relationship with food and think about how you can support your kids to have a positive relationship with food and their body. I will also give you some practical tools, but my intention is to help you take the pressure off of feeding your kids and help you create a home that supports a healthy relationship to food and bodies. I've linked to the full description in the show notes, so you can check it out. It's 15 pounds. It will be, um, all on Zoom, and I'll have the recording available for a week afterwards that you can watch on catch up if you like. Plus you'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters Guide to share with friends, family, childcare, and schools. So click the link in the show notes and you'll get the full details of what we're gonna talk about in that workshop. And lastly, before we get to Emma, just a quick reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader supported publication. I'd love to bring you more deeply researched pieces, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor and behind the scenes. Admin support. So if you are in a position to become a paid subscriber, then please consider it. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. It works out at something like 50 p an article. And if that's not accessible for you right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk, putting the word ‘snacks' in the subject line, and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. You don't have to explain yourself. I trust that if you are able to afford a subscription right now, you will, and if not, then just get in touch. All right, team. Here's my conversation with Dr. Emma Svanberg.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Emma, I'd love it if you could start by letting us know who or what you are nourishing right now.Emma: Well, at the moment I am just in the process of nourishing the, I suppose, the next few weeks that are coming up for me, which are all about my new book, that is coming out in March called Parenting for Humans, which is a funny process, right? Because you sort of just dated over a long period of time. And then, uh, you know, as you know yourself, as we get closer to launch date, there are lots of different kinda angles to think about. So at the moment I'm both nourishing trying to, uh, talk about my book, trying to really kind of get to grips with understanding how it's going to resonate with people. I think that's the kinda key thing for me thinking about the ideas that I really want to kind of get out there into the world while at the same time still nourishing myself and my family as best I can.Laura: Yeah. I mean, I remember when I published my first book, I didn't have that same, I didn't have any responsibilities to anyone else except myself. and then when the second book came along, I had a six month old at that point, and it was just a completely different experience and it was such a fine balance to kind of, you know, preserve myself in amongst the chaos of book publishing. So I hope that you're managing to, to find pockets and moments to relax and decompress and, and yeah, tend to yourself because it can be a lot. I don't think people realize that writing the book, editing, fact checking, copy editing, all of the, that whole lengthy, lengthy process is like 50% publishing a book. Maybe? Like there's all of the publicity and everything surrounding that is like, is a huge piece of it.Emma: Yeah, absolutely. I think that what makes it easier is that I'm really excited about this book. I mean, I've also written a previous book that was a very niche specialist book about birth trauma and was also very excited about that one of course, but this book kind of really brings in all of the therapeutic ideas that I've worked with with clients and have done so for many years. So in some ways I think that, you know, in itself, kinda talking about the ideas of the book, um, is something that I'm really enjoying doing and kind trying to figure out, you know, which has always been something that's been really important to me, how do we turn what can feel like really inaccessible, complex psychological concepts into ideas that will make sense to people so that they can very quickly then apply them to their own lives.Laura: So, and you've kind of, you've kind of touched on it a little bit in terms of kind of the, um, maybe more how the book functions, but can you tell us a little bit more about what you are covering in the book, what is the message you're trying to get across?Emma: Um, I think that it started off, the idea came from my experience of working with parents. Um, you know I kind of qualified back in 2009, I qualified but, and the experience that I see parents having over that time has changed so much. So back when I first qualified my role was very much about helping parents, most usually mothers within the NHS and I was seeing people to, you know, kinda really value their role and think about kinda getting support in place, you know, very kinda clear difficulties around, for example, birth trauma or anxiety about bonding with a baby or postnatal depression would be a very common, um, difficulty that I'd see. What's shifted in that time is that there is a whole added layer that has been added on top of that for parents, which is around pressure to do things a certain way, to be a certain way. To parent in a particular way, and that is pressure that is felt by parents, but it's also pressure that then is experienced by children. And what we have then seen kind of come up in, particularly in the last five years or so, is so much advice, so much information about how you can tackle that. You know, try doing it like this. This is a really useful strategy that you could have. These are some really useful words that you can say to your child, but what I then see is parents who've tried that, it's not working for a reason, and then they end up feeling like there's something really wrong with me. I'm a terrible parent, or I'm not doing this well enough, or there's something wrong with my child. My child is broken. Because all of these beautiful strategies are not working. Where we-Laura: I never, sorry. Just that, just like really, that really resonated with, not resonated, but it, it kind of, it struck a nerve that I've thought a lot about how pressure, and I think about this a lot as, as a professional who kind of gives advice and, and shares some of the, the things that you talk about in the book, you know, strategies and advice.Um, I try and be really deliberate and thoughtful and intentional about that. Whether or not that lands is another is, is another thing, but, so I, I think through, you know, at being a parent, think through how that, how much pressure and how much pressure there is on parents in general, how that contributes to anxiety, to guilt, to shame, to all of these things.But I hadn't actually thought about how, what the implication is for our children as well and how they experience that as pressure themselves and how they are embodying some of these ideals and ideas and, and fantasies around, what it means a per, to show up as a parent in a, a person in the world and what that will mean for them as they, as they grow up.So, yeah. Sorry, that just , sorry to interrupt you there, but that just kind of really struck me, what you were saying.Emma: It's so often it's about the dynamic, right? We focus our attentions as professionals onto the parents rather than or onto the child. But actually, I think kinda a really core part of the message of the book is that it's about your dynamic as a family and the relationship that exists between all of the different members of the family.So, you know, you, you as a mother might go off and do loads of reading, loads of research, gather loads of information, try particular strategies, but if they don't click for your child or for your family with your partner or for the context in which you're living in, actually, you can end up feeling like I'm not applying this in the correct way, rather than, actually, maybe that strategy wasn't correct for me and my family and the situation that we're in.Laura: Mm-hmm.Emma: I think for me a lot of that work, cause I, I'm an adult psychologist, I focus on work with kinda adult mental health. You know, for me a lot of that is about us as parents understanding where we're coming from. You know what's important to us, what history we're bringing into our parenting relationship.Once we understand ourselves, it becomes so much easier to understand what will work for our child or for our family, and it also really allows us to see them as the people that they are. That's why it's called Parenting For Humans, right? Cause it's about, you know, how do we parent as the whole humans that we are, not just how we show up as mum or dad, but also then parenting our children for the whole humans that they are, which is, you know, flaws and all. Aside from those kind of idealized stories that we read about or hear about that, you know, kinda describe family life as only fitting a very particular model.Laura: Absolutely. Yeah, you, that's one of the, the main themes that you, you talk about at the beginning of the book, this idea that we hold onto stories about what being a parent means, what it looks like, how we should be as parents, what we should value, and so on, and I'm wondering if you could just say a little more about this idea of stories and the impact that holding so tightly to these fantasies can have on us, on our family life, on those dynamics that you mentioned.Emma: Yeah, absolutely. I think, uh, you know, the book is based on this idea of a map that we kinda bring stories onto a map that we don't even know necessarily, that we have. Now might be stories from our own babyhood and childhood and stories from adulthood, stories from society, but also the stories that we've kinda internalized from previous generations, from the cultures that we live in.So, so many stories that we hold unconsciously, the tricky thing for us as adults is that we often don't even know that we're holding those stories until we come up against something that proves them wrong. And there are so many of them in parenthood, right? Like there's the kinda really basic ones like, I dunno, for example, maybe I hold a story that I should be able to put a baby in a blanket, pop it in a cot and it's going to go to sleep and that's just what babies do. That is a story that is so prevalent in our society.You know, think about what you see on tv, what you see in images. You know, those kinda photos that you see of beautiful babies with, you know, angelic faces, fast asleep. And actually then when you experience an actual baby and babies are full of more emotion, that can just change at any moment, you don't always know what that is, because you have that story or maybe you hold that unconscious story that when I put that baby in a blanket and I put it in a crib, it's gonna go to sleep. We're then coming up against that obstacle straightaway when that doesn't work. Cause we internalize that almost like a should, like this is what should happen. And when it doesn't happen, it can often take us quite a while to then think, well maybe that's because that story actually doesn't apply to me, my child, our situation. We then think I'm doing something wrong. Maybe I need a different blanket, maybe I need a different crib, maybe the room temperature's wrong. Maybe my baby has a sleep problem. You know? So we go down that road rather than go that level down and think, what is the story that I've kind internalized here? Is that a story that actually fits for me and for my baby or for my family?Laura: Yeah. I like that idea of kind of peeling back the layers. Like of, okay, this is what I'm told is, you know, could be wrong. Here are all the, you know, as you were listing all those solutions there, I was like, oh my God, there's so many things that we're told that we should do, so many variables that we should, you know, be well, first of all, aware of, and secondly, be able to manipulate. Um, when actually when we strip that away, asking ourselves, does this advice, does this information that I'm sifting through actually apply to me? And, and what is that background story that I've kind of hung, you know, I'm hanging my ideas about my child on, um, and, and, you know, do they actually hold up to scrutiny when we, when we look at them more closely?Emma: Absolutely. And it's, you know, we have to bring them into consciousness before we can hold them up to scrutiny. And that's the bit that often we don't do. Cause we just have so many of these stories. We have so many of these ideas that, you know, just because they're around us all the time, we don't question them.And then as soon as you start questioning them, what often happens is that people have, you know, multiple light bulb moments, right on that journey of parenthood where you suddenly go, oh, why am I doing that actually? Cause that doesn't really work.Laura: I know exactly what you're talking about with those light bulb moments, and I, I remember having one, maybe even, I don't know, as recently as like six or or nine months ago when kind of just, we just got out of, you know, the really, really intense baby phase. It's still pretty intense. But, looking back and, and like thinking about how many of these, you know, like how many stories I suppose I had collected from, you know, parenting books or podcasts or social media accounts or whatever it was.And then having to like really have a talk with myself about like, this is not, this does not apply to me like this , I don't need any of this. This is making things more difficult, more stressful, more pressured for me. And actually, what I noticed was that it was really undermining my own instincts about how I wanted to parent and, and kind of making me second guess myself a lot.Um, and, and as soon as I kind of got to that, it like made things so much simpler. I was like, okay, but is this, does this, you know, now I can look at something and say, okay, but does this actually align with my values? Is this actually helpful to me?Emma: Absolutely. And does it fit?Laura: Does it fit my child? You know, or is it actually gonna cause us more tension or friction or, or whatever it might be.Um, so yeah, I really resonate with that idea of having, being like a sort of light bulb moment and being like, this is trash. We don't need this . Um, and what, what's actually important and valuable for me? There was a part in the book again that really resonated with me, and I think it kind of relates to, um, to what, what we're talking about here. So I have your book and I've, I've highlighted a little section here and I wondered if it'd be okay if I, if I read it back.Emma: Oh, I'd love that. I haven't heard it out loud. So yes,Laura: Have you, you haven't recorded the audio book then yet?Emma: That's coming.Laura: You have that fun to come. So you, you've written, "because when we find ourselves looking for the answers that will make it all easier we can lose sight of the child right in front of us. We have this idea that if we just find the right strategy, the right label, the right technique, the right line to say, perhaps even the right diagnosis, then everything would be okay. Then we'll have cracked it, whatever it is, sleeping, feeding, eating five portions of fruit and veg, good behavior, a healthy relationship. We keep chasing that magic solution and we never stop and look at what is going on right now in ourselves, in our children, and in our families." And yeah, this is such a fine line that I straddle as a practitioner, someone who works with parents and families, how can I be supportive without making it seem like if you just follow my five point plan or my formula , that um, you know, everything will, you know, will solve all, all your problems.I wonder if you could speak to, you know, why we are so drawn to looking to experts to help us figure out how to parent rather than looking at our own child.Emma: I think that there's, well, there's two parts to it, right. There's kinda the context in which we live. So historically we would've lived closer to our families. We would've been part of communities, you know, even when I was a child, absolutely, there was much more a sense of kinda community there, other neighbors around, or more experienced parents who you might come to a particular guidance.So a lot of that has gone, you know, people are parenting much more in isolation. Um, and also in this country, that kind early intervention, preventative care that used to be very much part of the early parenting experience where you'd have a midwife that you knew well, you'd a health visitor that you knew well.There were community nurses that were around, had school nurses, so you know, all of those professionals that you had easy access to have virtually disappeared in the last kind of 15 years. So that has made a huge difference to people's ability to access information. The research shows that people still do turn to their family and friends, first and foremost, for information above experts.I think then when you have maybe particular issues that you are struggling with, where you might want to speak to a professional like you, if you can't access that for whatever reason, then of course there is this, you know, absolute wealth of information that is now available to you on the internet. So I think that there's just a kind practical reality to how differently we live and how that has meant that lots of people have less access to professional expertise then maybe they would have done in the past.There's also, I think, because there's so much more information out there that is accessible on the internet, for example, um, people tend to feel a bit bombarded. So there can be a pressure to feel like you have to choose a particular camp, you know, I follow the expertise of experts who follow like this line of thinking, for example.And then, you know, you can absolutely go down a rabbit hole finding out so much information about this one particular thing. But if that is a, an idea or um, a set of strategies that doesn't really fit your family, it can feel really hard to then pull yourself out that and shift to different, different model, you know, these things are presented to us as different models or strategies rather than flexible ideas that we might be able to apply in flexible ways. And then I also think the kind of other side of it is, I mean, we know this in a wider sense, that we do live in a society that rises perfection. And often when we come to have children, we might have already felt great sense of achievement and success in other areas of our life.And there can be a sense for lots of parents that they're gonna take same set of principles that I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do this well, and by doing it well I have to follow these particular guidelines. If I do these things, and that means that I'm a good parent, and it's almost like we apply that same sense of achievement, productivity, purpose to the act of parenting.What's difficult, of course, is that they children and ourselves change on a daily basis, you know when they're really little they change almost on an hourly basis, so, when we can feel like we're picking that box, we feel like we've got a strategy or a plan that works, if our child changes or our circumstances change, or we change, you know, and, and actually, you know, again, that kinda idea of flexibility can feel quite hard to hold onto. Think it's a combination of lots of different things and, and then of course, you know, supply and demand. The more that we look for expertise, the more experts will share their knowledge with us.Laura: Mm-hmm.Emma: You know it's so easy to be able to go and find a piece of information that we're looking for. And there can be tremendous benefits to that. And again, the research shows that there is a benefit to that. The cost is for people who have that sense of socially oriented perfectionism, where there might be a sense of shame or judgment, when they don't feel like they're meeting this particular ideal, for example, that might be held up to them by the different things that they're kinda reading or hearing.So again, I think, yeah, lots of different reasons. Some, some of them have kinda huge benefits to us in kinda what we have access to, but that also has to be held in mind with what it's costing us in terms of the pressure that we put on ourselves as parents. But also, like we said before, the pressure that then puts on us as a family, in the relationships within the family if not everybody's on board with that way of doing things. So it's important to kind of hold that in mind too. And sometimes, you know, you can take the bits that you need from experts, but essentially what it comes down to is how am I gonna apply this to my situation or our situation? That can be really hard to do.Laura: Mm-hmm. And, and I want to, to talk to you in a second, just a little bit about how we can sort of sift through the noise and, and figure out what, what is valuable and helpful for us. Because as you say, there are things that you know, might, might make a difference and, and might be really important, um, you know, might be great, helpful information for us. But really appreciated you naming in the book and, and you've said it again here, just sort of this, what I would conceptualize probably as sort of internalized capitalism. This idea to constantly be producing, to be achieving, to be succeeding. And, and as you pointed out in the book, you know, that's how we are, um, schooled. That's, you know, if we go onto further education, that's how we approach our employment. But do we ever take a step back and, and think about why am a, applying the same tools to my parenting and, and my relationships with other human beings as I am to, you know, a, a achieving, um, you know, a certificate or a degree or whatever, whatever it might be. And I just think that, yeah, capitalism has so much to answer for here, both in terms of that and, and how we just approach our parenting. But also going back to what you were saying before about how we used to be so much more in community and around, you know, we would turn to like our parents or maybe like our older siblings or neighbors or cousins or, or whatever it was that were, you know, in proximity to us. And now it's so much easier to just look at, at, at somebody on our phone than it is to like reach out and have a meaningful conversation with someone. And that's because we're, you know, capitalism thrives right, by keeping us isolated, keeping us away from each other, um, when we are, we are so interdependent especially when it comes to, to parenting. And I think about this a lot in terms of how much easier it would be to feed kids if we were more in community. You know, if your neighbors were like taking round a lasagna cuz like you've had this reciprocal thing where like, you know, you each double batch cooked something and then swapped every week so that you ha-, you know, that you were caring for each other in that way and sharing the load and sharing the burden.And also when we're in community, we can see that, yeah. Oh, look, that toddler also doesn't eat vegetables. Cool. All right. it's a toddler thing. Whereas when we, when we look, log into social media, all we hear is like, oh, let's, you know, try and program our children to love broccoli more than they love cake or you know, whatever, whatever it is. So I'm on my high horse now, Emma, but-Emma: So go for it. Go for it. Love it.Laura: I just, I guess kind of thinking, thinking a little bit more specifically about feeding, um, and like the relationship that our children have, um, with food, which I think is so often, well it's a reflection of our own relationship with our food and we with food and our bodies and we, if we have unresolved things there, then that can, can kind of have a cascade effect.But also, you know, I see a lot of generic feeding advice that gets thrown around without nuance or caveats or, or just even the disclaimer of like, it, you don't have to do this if it doesn't work for you and your family. I think, I feel like if people said that more often, that would be really helpful.But this advice ends up adding more pressure to the feeding relationship, which can be counterproductive for feeding, and perpetuates this narrative about a correct or a best way to feed a child. And I mean, we could extrapolate this to almost any element of parenting. It's just I'm interested in feeding.Can we talk about how we can find a way to like sift through the noise and tune into what works for you and your family?Emma: Um, I obviously would say yes, And one of the things that I talk about in the book is kinda, uh, general parenting tools rather than kinda overarching strategies that there are, you know, few key things if you can hold them in mind, then you can apply different advice to your child and your family situation.And for me, one of the most important ones of them is around collaboration. And I think that, you know, what we were talking about before when you were talking about capitalism and that kinda sense of productivity and purpose, how that applies to feeding, and you know, in the home, how we bring our own histories into that too. I think so often when we're, whether we're talking about feeding, whether we're talking about anything else to do with family life, we come to it in a very intellectual way, we're talking about I'm going to apply this principle or I'm going to do it this way, and that's just going to work.What I focus on a lot in the book is that how do we go down into thinking about this as a relationship, which I know you talk about, you know, feeding is a relationship, that we bring our own relationship with food into that, but also our child will have their own experience with food. When we come at things from a cognitive way, you know, we're thinking about this is what I'm gonna apply to this situation and we're not thinking so much about how it's going to land with that other person. Or what they're bringing to that situation.Laura: Mm.Emma: So let's say you followed some beautiful advice that you've seen on social media around talking broccoli, that we're going to feed children broccoli.If we are stuck on that idea that this is, you know, the kinda cognitive, that intellectual idea that this is what should happen, it becomes so hard to see our child's experience of what it's we're trying to do. So again, you know, being able to base those things on the relationship. You know what, what did it feel like when I have prepared this food for my child and they have refused it, or actually they're disgusted by it?How does that make me feel, what does that touch on for me as a parent? And often there are such complex issues with that. Right? In the book, I kinda start off by thinking about us as, as whole human beings and what we're bringing. And then, you know, it's only when we understand ourselves that we can really think about how can we then relate to our children.So with food for example, you know, so much gets brought up for us as parents, where our children, we feel rejected. We feel like we're not doing, you know, good job, I can't even feed my child. It's one of those basic tasks like how can this be so hard? You know, that basic thing that everyone else seems to be doing ok. I must be doing something wrong. So what touches on for you, you know, those feelings of, let's say rejection or, or you know, conversely, maybe it's fury, you know how, how dare they reject this? I've worked so hard, so we're thinking about our own histories.And once we can think about what does that touch on for us, we can then think about, what do we want to shift so that our experience, our emotions aren't getting in the way of what we're trying to do with our child, which is very much a relational process.Once we understand that and we can think about what we're bringing, then we can think about what are those pieces of information advice that do fit? Where are those things actually that I feel like are still niggling, like actually this makes me so angry, so that maybe I wanna go think about that somewhere outside of this situation or circumstances. And it's only really then once we understand all of that, that we can then think about how does that child actually feel about broccoli? You know, do they actually like broccoli?If they don't, what am I gonna do about that? Am I gonna persevere? Is that worth it for me? Do I have the resources? Maybe it's okay for them not to eat broccoli for a little while, while I just get over all emotions that this broccoli has brought in. You know, it seems so simple these are the things that come up for us as parents, you know, multiple, multiple times a day when these particular situations or events can touch something that can feel so fundamental, so emotional, so raw. What we tend to then do is that we bring in more information, more kinda cognitive information so that we try a different strategy rather than than pause at that point and think, why is it that this is bringing up something that feels so powerful for me that is getting in the way of what I want to happen between me and my child?Does that make sense?Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. And, and I think like, just to maybe put it in slightly more, concrete context, at least this is something I've been thinking a lot about recently when I see a lot of advice about feeding our children. It's, you know, there's like, let's take for example, this idea that you shouldn't offer alternatives, right? If the child doesn't like, you know, doesn't eat what's on the table. By, you know, there's this, there's this school of thought by of, of like, well, if you offer alternatives, then your child is manipulating you and you know, you're getting into this battle of wills with your child and you know, setting aside what's going on with the child's psychology there, you're already setting this up as a sort of,Emma: A battle. Laura: A battle. Yeah. Uh, rather than a relationship where, you know, where you might be able to be like, okay, what, what, what's coming up for me when they refuse their broccoli? And Okay. Then once I've, once I've maybe processed that a little bit and, you know, talk myself down off the edge. What's going on for them?Oh, actually, like they have a sensor processing difference or they, you know, there's not enough safe foods on the table, so they can't actually, it doesn't feel, they don't have that sense of felt safety that allows them to come to the table and, and have a meal with the, the rest of the family if you're even eating at a table in the first place.Basically, it actually prevents us from being responsive to the child that is in front of us. And, and I, I know responsive can be kind of like a loaded term for some people, but what I mean by that is literally just being able to see the, the child and their needs and meet them where they're at rather than kind assuming that actually they're trying to manipulate you and,Emma: Totally. And I think we can often have this idea, right, that we as parents are in control and that if our children are not doing the things that we feel like they should be doing, that they're meant to be doing, that other people's children seem to be doing, then that's our failure as a parent and we just need to try harder or we need to work more, or that there's something wrong with them and so we need to work at kinda fixing them. Actually, you know, the relationship between a parent and child is so complex. You know, it's almost, we have this idea that children are like these malleable objects that, you know, if we're just molding them in the right way, then they're gonna come out, the outcome is gonna be the one that we are, you know, striving for.Rather than actually our children come into the world as these whole human beings who have their own thoughts, feelings, needs, beliefs, tastes, you know, and also then within the, the wider context in which we're living. You know, can I afford broccoli at the moment? How do I feel about broccoli? You know, what happened when I refused broccoli at the kitchen table?And how much is that impacting on how I feel now? So, you know, our history, our current circumstances, the relationships that we're in our work environments, our financial circumstances. You were talking about broccoli, but all of those things can really, um, you know, kinda, yeah. Obviously have a huge impact on these kinda very, what seem like very minor circumstances.Laura: Yeah. What does that broccoli represent?Emma: What does broccoli represent?Laura: What's it really about?Emma: I'm thinking about people listening to this and go, yeah, typical psychologist, right? We're talking about broccoli and now I'm talking about like wider society, but actually, you know, because we so often just see that kind of one idea of it's just, it's just about the broccoli and you know, if, if I tried hard enough then I'd be able to mold my child to eat that broccoli or whatever it might be.But when we can take into account everything that we're bringing, everything that they're bringing, our wider circumstances, then we can kinda, yeah, focus in on that relationship as whole people, right? Like this is who I'm showing up to this, you know, this kitchen table and this is who they're, and this is how they're showing up.And you know, all of those kinda different circumstances, how tired they are, all of those things that can get in the way, that once we let go of that idea of this is how it should be, we can start to see what actually is, you know, what actually is in front of us. And then we can, you know, think about solutions to target what is going on in those moments?Laura: I think there is something, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this as well, Emma, that feels uniquely. kind of, yeah. I think you used the word fundamental earlier or primitive or something that, you know, gets to really the core of, um, you know, survival for humans when it comes to feeding that really kind of just, it kind of, it's like a knife gets dug in in a way that it doesn't with, with some other areas of, of parenting that, yeah. It's just such a, an essential part maybe of parent, feeding your child particularly again, I'm thinking to like those early, um, early weeks and months and, and years when, you know, there is that kind of narrative of like, the first 1000 days are the most important of a child's life and you know, what you feed them now is gonna impact their, you know, cognitive development and da da da da da for the rest of their lives.And so I just wonder if, from a psychologist perspective, if you have any thoughts about just like, you know, what that's kind of touching on for us when feeding isn't going well. Emma: I think you're right. I think it's so primitive, you know, that actually so much of parenting is around these kind of really primitive survival mechanisms.Laura: Yeah.Emma: You know that actually our, our role first and foremost is to keep this child alive you know whatever, at whatever cost. And you know, feeding difficulties, can start, you know, from day one. So thinking about, you know, kinda those who have breastfeeding difficulties or feel judged for their feeding choices, for example. And then that can kinda go on so much through food being a representation of love, you know, how did we experience that when we were growing up?And then how do we wanna kinda translate that for our own family again within the context that we're in. So if we're, you know, two parents are working full-time, for example, how does, how, how do we kinda translate that into, you know, eating together or those kinda idealized family meals that we hold in our minds? So I think it can be very fraught. It can be such a fraught experience. And I think it's also an experience that is so judged, right? You know, thinking about feeding babies, thinking about what kinda food we give our toddlers, thinking about, you know, the, all of the stories that you've spoken about, diet, culture, obesity, all of that kinda, it can get really mixed. Our own relationships with our bodies, our own relationships with food, and how that comes up in our experience of feeding our children, how well supported we are in that, you know, financially. Again, kinda how that, how that can impact on what we're able to offer our children. So, I think, you know, it is the way that we express love, it's the way that we kinda show our children that we care about them. At the same time, there is so much pressure to do it a certain way so it can become so fraught so quickly.Laura: Yeah.Emma: And we also don't talk enough about how boring it can be to feed children day in and day out.Laura: It's so relentless. Three meals, three snacks. Like, oh, you don't like this anymore. Suddenly you like that.Emma: And especially, you know, when, you know, you've kind of been, if you've raised children during lockdowns and you literally, you know, it was almost like a constant rotation of food over lockdowns. So, you know, I think that we don't talk enough about that kinda ambivalence around, you know, not just parenting tasks, but parenting in general.But, you know, again, the idea is that we're have this kinda lovely, you know, food environment that, um, we're gonna share these kinda pleasant meals together where the family are coming together to talk about their day. All of this kinda, again, kinda back to stories, narratives, ideals that we hold when actually for a lot of parents, food is something that can just feel quite boring and quite relentless and, and often very stressful.And, and you know, as soon as we start talking about that side of things too, the more difficult, the more negative side of things. Often we can feel a sense of relief that actually it doesn't have to be this one ideal way that actually all of these experiences can be so complex and varied with individual.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for, for speaking to the, to that point and, and I think naming how Yeah. Tedious feeding a family can be. And we were kind of talking a little bit off mic. I have a piece coming out next week that talks about, um, feeding a child as an aesthetic. Like that's what we see so much of on, on, um, social media when actually if, if we're feeding with that per- like idealized image in our head. Again, it occludes us from seeing the child in front of us and being in relationship with that child and, and food can be, You know, again, without romanticizing it, it can be ti-, a time for connection and for checking in. It can also just be a cluster fuck, sometimes and through nobody else, you know, through no one's fault.Um, just because you, sometimes you have to just get food in their mouths to sustain them to get to the next activity or like, you know, to grandma's house or what, you know, whatever it is. So, um, yeah, I think. I really appreciate that you know, that you're having these conversations where we're looking at the messy, ugly, boring, tiring, exhausting side of it, but not in this like meme-ified way that we often see that that sort of like really trivializes how exhausting and draining and how much hard work all of this is.But yeah, I really appreciate that in your, in the book that you're kind of inviting us to check in with what, what stories and fantasies we're bringing to our parenting that actually might be causing us more suffering and, and, and harming the relationships that we're having with, with our families so that we can kind of, you know, give ourselves permission to take what we need and leave the rest ofEmma: Yeah. Yeah. And you can get really creative then, right? Like once you let go of those ideas and you think about what do I want? What do we need as a family, you can get really creative with the way that you do things.Laura: Yeah.Emma: You know, for example, feeding children in the bath, that is something that somebody that I know does, you know, occasionally when they've had a really tricky day and it's been an absolute shitshow, I'm like, you know we're gonna get in the bath, you can have some sandwiches, that means I don't need to do any cleaning up, and then I'm gonna pop you into bed and I'm going to sit on the sofa and that is not something that you'd ever see on Instagram, I don't think.But you know, just that kinda idea of what, what is gonna work for me? And what do I need right now and what does my child need right now? And maybe they don't need to have this kinda really beautiful aesthetic, aesthetically pleasing, mealtime actually. Maybe they just need to eat something quickly so that you can then move on with your day or have connection in a different way, and if you know, as you know, and you talked about, you know, the stress that can come with feeding can cause such a vicious circle so quickly that actually anything that you can do to kinda nip that in the bud and again bring in ideas around flexibility, creativity. What's gonna work so that you can feed your child but also in a way that feels the least stressful for all of you?Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I fully endorse toast for dinner. If that's like, you know what you need to do to like put something in their bellies and get them to bed. Like as long as they're having enough to eat, then yeah, we're good. Emma, thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation. Before I let you go, I want to ask you who or what is nourishing you right now?Emma: Um, well at the moment I've been really focused on kinda restoration, so I think last year I did a lot of work around kinda reflection over the pandemic experience that parents had and how burnt out so many are, given the experiences of the past few years that are continuing. But at the moment, what I'm really kinda nourishing myself with, so a particular person, Lama Rod, who is an amazing meditation teacher and started to run these Thursday meditation groups, for UK people, cause he's based in the States. So, I've been kind of really consuming a lot of his work and his presence is just incredibly helpful and healing and I really love what he has to say about this particular time that we live in. I think that you'll really like him. He has a lot to say about you know, he calls this the age of apocalypse that we are coming into, we're in dark times at the moment, but there actually is by embracing that darkness that we can start to think about what we wanna shift into the future. So very much about, you know, not being afraid of embracing the dark, messy stuff, which is something that feels, really resonates with me.Laura: I think that, um, it reminds me of Bayo Akomolafe's work. I don't know if you're familiar with their book, um, These Wilds Beyond Our Fences where they talk about that in terms of like climate crisis and, um, but also like racism and parenting. They're a parent. It's like, there's also some like nuclear physics or something in there. It's like, it's a really dense dense book. But, um, I'll, I'll link to that and I'll link to, sorry, what say the name of the, the per-, the,Emma: His name is Lama, Lama Rod Owens, and he's on Instagram, but he also has stuff on the internet and he does a number of courses. He also wrote a book, so.Laura: Okay. I'll link, definitely link to, to them in the, in the show notes. And then the final question I have for you, Emma, is, what are you snacking on right now? So at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something. It's like a recommendation that they have for the audience. It can be an actual snack. I mean, I feel like you've just given us a recommendation, but I want another one. Like what you've been into lately.Emma: I am snacking on rest, which I think, you know, the, again, we can often have this idea that we have to do these things in a perfect way. That you know, what our kind of recovery journey might look like, having a few years where I think things have been so intense, you know so many families... You know that if we talk about kinda how, you know, self healing or wellness journeys, often we're talking about, I'm up and meditate for an hour in morning. You just can't do that when you've got children, or it's hard to do that when you've got children, so I am a big fan of snacking on moments of rest, you know moments during the day to just reset yourself. So even just sitting with your eyes closed, taking a few deep breaths.Or just thinking about the ground beneath your feet or just stopping, you know, so that you're not just going and going and going all day, but when you taking a moment to check in with yourself and just see how you are.Laura: I love that microdosing on rest throughout the day.Emma: Absolutely.Laura: Love it. Okay, so my, I feel like my thing is kind of just silly, but in a, in a good way. So we are recording this in January, 2023. So we're just coming out of like the holiday blah, whatever that was. But I just came across last, at the end of last week, the 2022 Haters Guide to the Williams Sonoma catalog.So I'm not sure if you're familiar with what Williams Sonoma is, but it's this US based brand and it's like if you think about like a John Lewis or like, you know, a higher end department store, but on steroids. Um, that's Williams Sonoma. It's like all these wildly expensive, like, you know, like a countertop pizza oven.Like nobody needs that in a flat in London, you know, like who needs that? Who has the kitchen space for that? And it's like, you know, everything is, like, all the kitchen appliances are like $500 and stuff. But anyway, this guy just goes through a bunch of items in the Williams Sonoma, um, catalog takes like the copy that they've written in there and just rips it a new one, just tears into it and it's hilarious and it's very cathartic, um, and highly enjoyable. So I'll link to that, I know we're like, out of Christmas season and holiday season. But, um, I think it's still worthwhile to have a little look at and, um, you can watch out for the 2023 one if you're listening to this later in the year. All right, Emma, can you tell everyone the name of your amazing new book and where they can find out more information about you?Emma: Uh, yes. So I am Mumologist on Instagram and loads of my kinda links and everything are on there. Or my website is dremmasvanberg.com. The book is called Parenting for Humans, and it's out on March 2nd which is World Book Day, which I love.Laura: Lovely. That's so,Emma: So, you know, I'd again love it if people would pre-order it. That makes a big difference. But yeah, if people do get their hands on it, I'd love to hear what people make of it.Laura: We'll have all of the links for Emma's books and her social media and her website in the transcript and in the show notes for this episode. So check her out. Thank you so much, Emma. This was,Emma: Thank you.Laura: will be really reassuring for a lot of parents to just hear that, Okay we can let go of some of the pressure and expectations and just check in with ourselves and figure out what it is that we need and what we want from our relationships.Emma: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for chatting.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe
HEYO. And welcome back to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast! We took a break back in November after wrapping up Season 1 of the pod with Katie Greenall talking all things Embodiment, so check out that episode if you haven't already. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.We're kicking off Season 2 with Whitney Trotter - Registered Dietitian and nurse, Anti-racism Educator/Consultant and Human Trafficking Activist. Whitney is also mother to a 6 year old who is a selective eater. In this ‘sode, Whitney and I talk about her daughter's eating and what this brings up for her as a dietitian and eating disorder professional. Whitney goes on to talk about her work supporting parents with eating disorders who are really struggling in their relationship with food and their body, looking closely at the underlying anxieties that come up around eating and what they can teach us. We talk about what feeding children can bring up for parents who have eating disorders or disordered eating and how that experience can be so triggering.And Whitney talks about how going to the drive thru is 1) not something you should feel bad about and 2) something that can actually bring more connection when you're feeding a family.Find out more about Whitney here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here's the transcript in full:Whitney: You know, I always think anxiety can teach us so much, right? Like, we typically treat anxiety as all bad, but I think it's a root of a lot of things. And so really leaning into, okay, what is the anxiety telling us? You know, are we, is there a fear? Right? So for sometimes, it's the meal that we're cooking. The parent or mom really wants their kid to have variety, but they're so worried about how this particular food is gonna show up for them. There's a lot of myths. There's a lot of lies that their eating disorder has told them about certain foods. And so really processing through that, processing okay, what feels safe to eat? What feels safe to share like community wise with our family. Things like that. And maybe even delegating, you know, what is their partner doing? Can the partner help with the meal times and the plating and the cooking, things like that, will that dial down some of that anxiety?INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to Season Two of Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them? I'm Laura Thomas, an anti diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Whitney Trotter.Whitney is a registered dietician and nurse, anti-racism consultant and human trafficking activist based in Memphis, Tennessee. And as we'll learn, she's also the parent of a six-year-old who is a selective eater. So Whitney and I talk about her daughter's eating, and what this brings up for her as a dietician and an eating disorder professional. It touches on anxiety, fear, and feelings of failure, especially if you've made your whole career about nourishing people.Whitney goes on to talk about her work supporting parents with eating disorders who are really struggling in the relationship with food and their body, looking closely at the underlying anxieties that come up around eating and what they can teach us. We talk about what feeding children can bring up for parents who have eating disorders or disordered eating, and how that experience can be really triggering.We also talk about renourishing our inner child through eating nostalgic kid foods, and I talk a little bit about that article that I published last week on clean eating orthorexia and kids, which I've linked to in the show notes and the transcript, if you haven't already seen that. And we also talk about how mumfluencer culture and diet culture collide to make it seem like feeding kids is about an aesthetic as opposed to being based on something that's achievable or realistic or practical or even functional.And then Whitney talks, uh, about how going to the drive-through is one, not something that you should feel bad about. And two, something that can actually bring more connection when you're feeding a family. Lots of really cool stuff. We kind of go all over the place, but in a good way. And I really enjoy talking to Whitney, she's someone I've wanted to have on the podcast for a long time, so I'm glad that we finally made it work. I just want to give a content warning. We talk about body image in the context of sexual assault and miscarriage. Not in any detail, but I just wanted to mention that it's there. We also talk about eating disorders and our experiences of having babies in the NICU and breastfeeding challenges. So if those are things that you don't need to hear right now, then please skip ahead. There will be another episode out next week. And before we get to today's episode, I just want to share that I am gonna be running my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop again in February. A lot of you have been asking about this. I kind of took a break from running workshops as I was getting my Substack up and going. Um, but now I'm able to kind of offer, I don't know how often I'm gonna do it, but we're gonna have one in February. It will be a 90 minute workshop completely online, and you'll be sent a copy of the recording afterwards to watch back.So you know, if bedtime goes way later than you're expecting, then um, yeah, you'll be able to catch up with it another time. We'll be talking about how kids' embodiment gets disrupted by diet culture, and what this has to do with feeding and how it can affect the feeding relationship. We'll discuss why we need to throw the rule book out the window and let them have ice cream before broccoli, and we'll talk about how we can build trust in our kids to get what they need.I'll offer a framework that can help you feel more relaxed about mealtimes whilst also encouraging kids to have autonomy. We'll talk about how providing supportive structure can encourage children to remain in touch with their internal cues for hunger satisfaction and pleasure and fullness. And I'll cover how fussy eating develops and talk about some developmental milestones with eating as well as tools to help move through it. We'll also talk about why cutting out sugar and saying things like just another bite can undermine kids' instincts around food. And we'll talk about how we can talk about food and bodies without causing harm. So you'll be asked to fill out a short questionnaire about your specific situation ahead of time, and I'll try and tailor the content to the audience as much as possible.You'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters download. The workshop is suitable for grownups of kids of all ages, but I would say it's probably best for kids under 12. Parents, whatever that means to you and your family, grandparents, teachers, nutrition professionals, and anyone else working with kids are all welcome.It will be on Tuesday, the 21st of February, which aptly is pancake day, and it will be at seven o'clock and it's 15 pounds to join and it will be over Zoom. The full details and the booking information is in the show notes and the transcript for this episode. For those of you who are subscribed to the newsletter, you'll get a reminder and a link in an upcoming newsletter as well.And one more thing just before we get to Whitney, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack is a reader supportive publication. I'd love to bring you more deeply research pieces like my piece on clean eating and kids, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor. So, if you are in a position to become a paid subscriber, then please consider it. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's not accessible for you right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk, putting the word snacks in the subject line and we will hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. Alright, team, here is my conversation with Whitney Trotter.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Whitney, I'd love it if you could share with the audience who or what you are nourishing right now.Whitney: Oh my goodness. Okay. Well I am a mom of a feisty six year old, little girl who I just adore. So, we were kind of talking before the thing about some other dieticians that work in pediatrics and feeding and things like that. So I'm exploring the land of working with the selective eater. So our, yeah, so it's really fun.Like our, nourishing times are a bit chaotic right now and so doing that. I'm also, uh, an avid coffee lover, so I have been trying different just flavours of coffee, different roasters and a non beverage food thing that I've been kind of nourishing my soul with lately is I've been listening to the audiobook of Hood Feminism.I love, love it. So.Laura: Yeah, lots of different things. Tell us about your selective eater a little bit more.Whitney: Oh my goodness, so I think any, any mom, but particularly like dietician, nurse, mom, it's, it's so hard to like really kind of step back from our traditional schooling. So she legitimately has like six foods that she'll eat. Um, Mac and cheese, chicken nuggets, bacon, pancakes, strawberries, peanut butter and jelly. And that is it. So we've been really working with, you know, the autonomy piece, but also like, you know, there's also that just like natural worry of parents of it's like, okay, is my kid getting enough? Like, so many times in like our kind of traditional setting, it's like variety, variety, variety. And so really working on trying to let her be autonomous in the variety.So we've been giving her like, you know, three options to choose from and then she gets to choose out of those, like three to four options, what she's willing to try.Laura: Yeah, it's so, it's so interesting hearing from a parent who is, is, you know, has, I don't wanna say legitimately selective eater, because that makes it seem like other forms are illegitimate. But I suppose what I was thinking about there is how from social media, we get a really distorted picture of what kids should eat.And we see them eating like kale and I don't know, mushrooms and all of these, these foods that are really challenging for little kids. And so then when they go through that like normal or like typical food neophobic stage as toddlers and preschoolers and even into like school age, that parents have this sense that they're this, that they're developing feeding differences.And it's not until you hear of a child who is literally only eating six foods that you realize, wow, okay, actually my kid does have a reasonable variety and balance of food. So how are you, are you like, are you getting professional support with that? Like, and, and also like what does that bring up for you as a dietician, as a nurse?Whitney: Well at first you're like did I fail my kid? What am I doing wrong? I mean, you know, cause I work in and I see, I work in the land of eating disorder, so I treat a lot of children and adolescents and adults with disordered eating and eating disorders. So it is interesting. We do a lot of food neutrality, like we do not moralise food. Food is food. So, and she's, she's a spicy six year old, so she's very quick to, you know, to say the same thing that, that I'm teaching her back to me, which is always funny. So she's on the growth chart, like she's growing and so right now we're just kind of, you know, living in the land of offering the choices and not forcing, and then just making sure she's getting enough of the foods that she will eat throughout the day.So the biggest thing is I just wanna make sure she was growing and nourishing. And she is, and our pediatrician is wonderful.She's also Venezuelan, and so I think it's just a, another just added benefit of she's seen kids in from so many different other cultures and countries. And so she was like, you know what? I'm not worried. I don't want you to be worried. I'm like, okay.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And I like, I suppose it is really reassuring to hear from another healthcare professional like it, you know, everything looks good here. But I can also imagine like, as, as a nutritionist being like, holy shit, my kid is only six. Like, it is, it's so, even though I work with that population, like I know it's like really anxiety provoking when, you know, like kind of in the way that doctors make the worst patients like... Whitney: Yes, it's so true, so true. Cuz I mean, you really do, you're like, okay, what do I do? Like, you know, especially again cuz working in the eating disorders, you know what the outcome could be if you say certain things, if you press too hard. You know what I'm saying? So we're very cognizant of that. But we also just, we are, we really do tend to like, let her choose a lot of things. Like we really are those type of parents that like work with her in bodily autonomy and even when it comes to food, you know, so, it, I would be lying if I said it wasn't challenging, cuz it definitely is challenging. So we're kind of just staying the course right now.Laura: Well, and this is a, this is a, a different thing, but I have a two and a half year old and I've, I've spoken about this, loads on the podcast, but he was in the NICU for like two, only like two weeks, which, actually, I say only two weeks now, but at the time it felt like an eternity. And we had a really, really difficult time getting feeding established, breastfeeding established, and yeah.And, and there was something that felt so like, It, it just like really shook the core of my identity as a nutritionist to not be able to feed my child.Whitney: Yes,Laura: There is something that, that like just touched on, something like really deep, like I've made my entire career about nourishing people, yet I can't nourish my own child and that, I don't know if, if that resonates with you at all in your experience of feeding your daughter. Whitney: This is so wild that you're saying this, and thank you for sharing that. We had the exact same thing. She was in NICU and they gave her a, they gave her the wrong nipple. They, for the bottle, it was like a fast,Laura: A fast flow. Yes. That happened to us too.Whitney: Yeah. So then when she went to latch, I couldn't, she, she couldn't latch.And so similar, you go through this period, like you feel like a failure, you know, like you feel like, like you just said, it's like I, I've spent my whole career trying to help others nourish their body and like, I can't even feed my own child. And so she ended up with a really bad gag reflex, like, just really, really bad when she was younger. We would have to like prop her up to sleep. She was on medication. So I mean, it's been, yeah, even now she will kind of sometimes struggle with that, but yeah, that resonates so deeply. And just the trauma of your baby being in NICU, I mean, so, it's so traumatic for you, you know, as a parent. And so, yeah, definitely. It's so interesting. We have similar, uh, similar stories regarding that.Laura: Well, and then I think this is the, the thing that I've kind of discovered, like through having conversations on this podcast is that it it, because it, it happens to so many of us but we're just kind of expected to power on and keep going and, and not, and you know, just like dust it under, under the rug. And yeah, I think there, I'm thinking particularly of a conversation that I had with Christy Harrison. You know, again, sort of her story parallels a lot of my experience as well. And yeah, just how healing and cathartic it is to be able to, to share this more openly. Yeah, because it's, like I said, I think a lot of it, we, we, a lot of us experience, you know, similar things. I'm also really, you know, you've, you've mentioned a couple of times that you work in the eating disorder field and another theme that we touch on a lot in the, on the podcast is, you know, healing our own relationship with food as a parent and sort of supporting our children to have a positive or a healthy, or, you know, like however you wanna frame it, like a, a good relationship with food and bodies.And I'm, I'm really curious to hear more about your experience of working with parents who have either disordered eating or eating disorders and, and yeah, how you hold them and support them in your work.Whitney: Yeah, it's so interesting because I, I'm thinking of a particular session I had last week with a mom and we were really talking about how, you know, her daughter for the first time noticed that she ate dinner and you know, one of the things I told her, I said, your daughter is never gonna thank you for your restriction, but she is gonna remember the memories that you cultivate with her, particularly around meal times. And you know, I think that was really hard for her to hear and we kind of just sat with that and really explored, you know, what is it like for you to be able to sit at the dinner table with your kids and not every night like I know that's not realistic and you know, but two or three nights a week and engage in conversation.Cuz usually as parents and it's hard, right? Like different seasons of life, sometimes dinnertime is the only time you have to like sit and talk with them. There's after school activities, you know, parents are usually working, somebody's cooking, somebody's cleaning, and then you're exhausted. And so sometimes that like 30, 45 minutes is like the only time the family is together.And I think the eating disorder, you know, really can come in and monopolize that time as well. And it makes it very hard for somebody who is struggling, you know, with nourishment of their body, with body image to be able to sit and really holistically be present and be in the moment. So we definitely talk a lot about that.You know, I think too, you know, kind of speaking more generally with moms, we're, we're used to having to do so much, right? Like some of us are working in home, some of us are working outside of the home. Still taking a lot of the responsibility of maybe driving or navigating, dropping kids off to school or daycare, cooking, like I said, cooking, cleaning, there's so much on us that I think also by the time we finally sit down to eat, we're just so exhausted.Laura: Mm-hmm. If, if you have an eating disorder, even just disordered eating, when you're that exhausted, it's those eating disorder thoughts or those, you know, thoughts about weight and body size becomes so much more pronounced,Whitney: Yes,Laura: and that further takes you away from being connected and being present with your family. And I'm, I'm wondering what you offer your clients who are, yeah, really just struggling even to get through a mealtime with their family. Whitney: Yeah. So usually what we'll do is we'll do meal exposures together or we'll do like a snack, something to where there's not as much pressure of eyes kind of on them, so to speak. You know, so, maybe we'll try breakfast or lunch, we'll do some kind of exposures together, really dialing into what is the anxiety.You know, I think anxiety can teach us so much, right? Like, we typically treat anxiety as all bad, but I think it's, it's a root of a lot of things. And so really leaning into, okay, what is the anxiety telling us? You know, are we, is there a fear? Right? Sometimes, it's the meal that we're cooking. The parent or mom really wants their kid to have variety, but they're so worried about how this particular food is gonna show up for them. There's a lot of myths. There's a lot of lies that their eating disorder has told them about certain foods. And so really processing through that, processing okay, what feels safe to eat? What feels safe to share like community wise with our family. Things like that. And maybe even delegating, you know, what is their partner doing? Can the partner help with the meal times and the plating and the cooking, things like that, will that dial down some of that anxiety?So kind of really processing through all of that and trying to figure out, and also too, you know, I think a lot of us tend to treat the eating disorder from an abstinence-based approach, and that's not necessarily my philosophy. And so always trying to figure out, okay, what is the root of this? You know, what is the eating disorder giving us, you know, what is it telling us?What is it, what is it helping you navigate through? You know? And then are there alternative coping things that we can use?Laura: Yeah. So I think what you're, you're naming there is how oftentimes eating disorders manifest as a sort of byproduct of trauma oftentimes, and how, I mean, a, a major part of the reason that they develop is because they felt safe, like safety, they kept us safe in one way, shape or another. And so it's, it's almost kind of understanding, okay, the ways that, that this was helpful and protective at least initially, but how perhaps, you know now that the, the immediate danger has subsided, clinging onto an eating disorder is actually more harmful and destructive.Whitney: Yes.Laura: So what are the other ways of coping, of managing that are not destructive, that are helpful and, yeah, that allow us to have a, a, a quality of life that you know, an eating disorder just does not afford anyone. Is that fair? Is that-Whitney: Yeah, absolutely.Laura: -a decent summary?Whitney: Beautifully said Laura: And I hear from a lot of parents maybe kind of early on in terms of feeding their kids. So when it comes up to the point that they're introducing solids and like in the UK we call that weening. I know that's a different thing in the US, but at the point that they're introducing solids and how that can for people with an eating disorder can be really a really triggering phase of parenting. And I'm curious to hear if you've come across this with any of your clients or had conversations with folks about this and what your thoughts are.Whitney: It can be so triggering. It can be triggering, you know, there's so much of the body that can be triggering that we don't talk about, right? So if you are pregnant and you lose your baby, you will still lactate. You know, you will, your, your milk will still come in which can be so triggering. Um, I also have a lot of expertise and experience working with sexual assault victims, and so definitely wanna do a, a trigger warning on that.But the breastfeeding can be particularly triggering if there was a traumatic, anything traumatizing to the breast. And so really kind of going through that as well. Body image, you know, our body changes so much. And that postpartum, you know, pregnancy and that postpartum, I like to think of postpartum as a year.And so that postpartum,Laura: I'm two and a half years out and I'm still saying I'm postpartum.Whitney: I, you know, yeah, I, it makes me so mad.Laura: You're always postpartum, right,Whitney: Yes. Laura: after you've had a baby?Whitney: You are. You are never, yeah, you are never the same, right? You are never the same. I love that. I love that. So I think all of that really needs to be taken into consideration as well. And then the weaning part. So what we, what I've done before in the past is have met with the partners and have really developed a plan for kind of that postpartum in the perinatal phase and, you know, during pregnancy as well.And really have, having the partner be kind of the eyes and ears. And so then it takes, it kind of takes a pressure off because we want our partner also to be involved with the, with the, you know, we call it baby led weaning too, and, and solid sometimes. Different verbiage, but meaning the same thing. So how can we get the partner involved? Sometimes I'll have parents take pictures too of like, okay, like, what do you think? And then also work with the pediatrician as well. I think it's really, really important that we work with a pediatrician just to make sure that baby is, you know, adequately growing.Particularly too, I've always been so curious of this, of, you know, you and I share similar experiences with the, the trauma of NICU and, and latching. But when you have an eating disorder, particularly in such a vulnerable space and time, how does that affect milk supply? How does that affect latching? Different things like that. If there's a co-occurring mood disorder, right? So how is that showing up as well? And so really just trying to hold space for all of the variables while providing, you know, as much support and how the person wants support. I'm also a nurse and so I work with a lot of nurses that have eating disorders and some of them are like, okay, Whitney, give me like, I just need cognitive things. Like, tell me what to do. I need cognitive resources. I always like to ask like, how do you want to receive information, you know, as well.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And, I think like one thing that I just wanna point out that I've heard from, from parents with eating disorders as well, is that actually sometimes seeing your child have this like real innate embodied wisdom around food and knowing exactly what to do can be so healing for a parent with an eating disorder as well. Like that can really be like, wow, here's this almost role model in a sense of how to have an intuitive relationship with food.Whitney: Yes. And it's almost like reparenting, they get a chance of kind of like to reparent or, or sometimes I like to, maybe not reparent is the best word, but like renourish their inner child. Like they get to reclaim some of that as they're going through the process of, you know, watching the baby-led weaning.And so I try to do things to like make it fun. I, and you know, some parents will side-eye me, but like, also like if your kid is doing chicken nuggets and peas and, mac and cheese, eat chicken nuggets, peas and mac and cheese with them, you know, eat some of those kid foods that maybe.Laura: Oh my God. This is not like, if any parent listening in on this podcast side eyed you for that, then I would put them out personally, because we don't judge or shame food around here. But yeah. Sorry. Your point still stands though. Like get, get in there with them.Whitney: Yes. Make food messy. Make it fun. I've had so many parents be like, oh my goodness, you want me to do what? I'm like, yes, eat those things that you did not necessarily get to eat as a child. You know, because maybe, cuz sometimes too, you gotta think we're, we're dealing generational, right? There was the grandmother that had the eating disorder or the grandfather, which, or a close family member, which directly impacted how the parent, their relationship with food and body and that parent is like, okay, I really wanna break this generational cycle of disordered eating, eating disorder, and some of that is, it gets renourishing, the younger our, our younger inner child too.Laura: Yeah. And that's like a question that I was gonna ask you, you know, for parents who have their own eating disorder, who really are terrified of passing that onto their own kids. You've sort of named there that eating those fun, nostalgic childhood foods is something that they can do to help, like you say, end that intergenerational cycle of dieting, disordered eating, eating disorders. But I'm wondering if there's anything else that you would offer to parents to help, you know, put their mind at ease in terms of, you know, passing on an eating disorder.Whitney: Yeah, you know, we know that there is a genetic vulnerability. It's, you know, we can actually in the bio psychosocial model, like the biology, the psychology, the social environment, and I think the social environment really is key, right? Is how are we creating these safe spaces for you and family members when it comes to eating? And I think too, like taking the pressure off of eating, you know, food is so many different things. It's cultural, it's celebratory you know, it can be, you know, different religions have different food, uh, preferences and things as well. But we can also make it fun. And that's the thing too, is like, I don't think a lot of kids and adolescents are like wanting parents to cook these gourmet meals and make sure they have the salmon, twiced baked potatoes, right? Like, I couldn't, I, I remember some of those things I grew up eating right, but I don't remember every mealtime. But I do remember the, like how I felt as a kid getting to be in that space with my parents. So that's what I tell the parents that I'm working with is how do we create just that safe space where you get to just be with your kid for those 20, 30 minutes. Right? Especially the teenagers, right. I have a lot of parents that are parenting teenagers and it's like just, you know, such a chaotic time. Right?Laura: Yeah.Whitney: So I'm like, go through the drive through. Go through the drive through, turn off the radio, and y'all talk, you know, maybe have 20 minutes a day where there's no stimulation, if you can and just talk and, and see how they're doing. That's the kind of stuff that they remember, you know.Laura: I, yeah. I love that so much. You know, my next question was going to be about sort of the influence of social media in terms of like our, in influencing us to feed our kids perfectly. And as you were saying that, like, I wish that you turned that into like a post for social media. Like take your kids to the fucking drive-through , just go.Whitney: Just go through the drive through. It amazes me, like, yeah, it amazes me. Just like you said, I'm gonna make that a post. That's a great idea. Laura: Do it. Please do it. Because like not only is it subversive in and of itself, but like coming from a dietician who works in eating disorders, like, just like we need that, I'm, I'm working on a piece at the moment, for my newsletter about clean eating and orthorexia and how that is then transmitted to kids and like the fallout on children like, Whitney, I found a case study of a six month old baby. I'm actually gonna cry. A six month old baby who was being fed a homemade formula of sea moss and hemp seed, no supplementation. This child had hypocalcemia, was admitted to hospital with seizures and had rickets. A six month old baby in like, this is like a couple of years ago, right. And so this, yeah, I'm, I guess, You know, we, we all want our kids to be well-nourished, like you were saying at the beginning. Right. That's like, that's a, that's like a, it's a fundamental job of a parent, right? To make sure your kid has like enough to eat and like gets all their, all their nutrition and at the same time, all the, like the fearmongering, the scaremongering around nutrition, around, you know, the quote unquote obesity epidemic. It's driving parents to, and I'm not blaming any individual parent here cuz it's a systemic issue, but it's, you know, promoting a way of eating that is so dangerous for children.Whitney: Yeah.Laura: Anyway, sorry, that was like a major tangent because I've been thinking about it and I find it so disturbing and upsetting. But even in my own practice, I see it happen on like a, not such an acute level, but see the fallout of kind of like this of like healthy eating and clean eating and yeah, this strive for perfection in feeding our kids.Whitney: Yes. And well, and you bring up such a good point too, is I've actually had the parent, the mom, and the, and again, kind of speaking more generally, the mom ended up realizing she had a problem because the kid's teacher was like, you're not packing enough food.Laura: Okay. Yeah.Whitney: So that's when she was like, my relationship, I'm passing on these traits and behaviors. Like I'm, I'm, I'm so, my relationship with food is so distorted that now I'm not even packing enough for my kid. And so even teachers just really, you know, and I'm so grateful. My daughter's kindergarten teacher actually has a son who is in recovery. And so she is so aligned with positive reinforcement. I mean, and like, you know, I told at the beginning, we pack the same lunch. My kid has had the same exact school lunch for three years. I mean, that's, you know, and so I, I just had an honest conversation with her. I was like, you're gonna see the same thing. You know, I, I would love it if she would eat through the line, if she sees something, if she ends up having two lunches, I please support her in that. I want her, you know, we give her free room to try the school lunch if she wants, but we always pack her lunch on field trips. And so, but even teachers, right? Teachers and educators, if we can get them really plugged in on some of these things because you're right, it's, you know, early childhood is such an important time for kids. But it can be so anxiety provoking for parents who are really struggling and are trying to figure out, how do I live with this and it's taking over my life and I don't pass it on.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, it just, I have all the compassion in the world for parents who are in recovery from an eating disorder and, and then having to navigate that layer of feeding their kid. I think it's difficult enough feeding a child with the pressures and expectations that we get from social media anyway without having that layer of, of an eating disorder as well.It's so tricky and like you were sort of suggesting before, there are so many pressure points in terms of conception, pregnancy, baby loss. Infertility is another one. And then the actual, you know, birth and if, if, if it's a traumatic birth in that early postnatal period, and then you go from all of that to then having to, to, to, you know, pick up the reins with baby led weaning or, or whatever else, you know, whatever approach that you're taking. And it just all can be so tricky.Whitney: Yes.Laura: And there's just, there, I feel like there's a lack of anyone having conversations about these things and even less support for these things.Whitney: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Laura: I'm just wondering if, if there's anything that you wanted to add about either navigating feeding kids with an eating disorder or kind of the influence of diet culture, and you know what the like mom influencer culture for want of better word on how we feed our kids and kind of what you are seeing in your clinical practice.Whitney: Yeah. Well you brought up a really good point earlier. We're seeing a lot in the land of orthorexia and so, you know, something I've said before in the past of, uh, clients that I'm like, okay, we, we want to really work on the embodiment. We really wanna work on the variety if we can. The consistent nourishment, you know, without. without engaging orthorexia if we can. And what I mean by that is sometimes there's a tendency, I, I very much treat eating disorders on the spectrum. And so what tends to happen is maybe one, maybe one behavior dials down, but then there's this intense fear anxiety that ramps up and then kind of that obsession with the clean eating, or I don't wanna have like, you know, another co-occurring disease with this. And it's like that hyper fixation emerges. And so really talking about that in a very, just like, non-chain based way. But I definitely see the influence, like you said. I love, I love what you said, the mom culture of this like clean eating smoothie, like whole foods kind of like obsession, which feels so elitist to me. It feels very elitist. Laura: It is because, I mean, this is something I think a lot about is the not only the time, the money, the energy, I don't know. There's so much additional labor that goes into producing that, but it's all hidden, right? Nobody talks about the fact that like, you need someone else to look after your kids while you're doing this right, or you know, the, the labor, like where does that labor fall? Who does that fall on, that labor? And the fact that like it's, you know, it's not necessary from a nutrition perspective, right? You could get like a yogurt drink or a store bought smoothie if that's, you know, available to you. That a lot of what we see on social media is really about aesthetics rather than about nutrition. And I don't know if you know, is it, is it Casey, is it Davis from, from Struggle Care? I don't know if you know that account on social media. I think I've, I've spoken about this before. But she, so she talks about this in terms of your home and, like what's functional versus what is kind of like an aesthetic in terms of your home. And she talks about it through like, through the lens of like laundry. A lot of the times, you know how people have these like pristine laundry rooms and like laundry is kind of a hobby for some people, but that's not necessary in order to have like clean clothes that don't stink, right? You don't like, what is an essential function is like sorting your laundry, putting it in the machine and then like putting it away or putting it in a pile that is, you know, accessible to you. Right. And it's the same thing with feeding, right? This like, I don't even know what the cool, like, super foods are right now, but like the berry nourishing whole foods smoothie.Whitney: Yes,Laura: Like, sure. Give your kids, like, my kid loves berries. My kid would like eat their entire body weight in berries, but I'm not like making a fresh smoothie every morning for him, I'm like throwing some on a tray and being like, here you go.Whitney: Yes, and it's ending up on the wall, on the floor. The fingers are blue. AbsolutelyLaura: So, yeah, and, and I think that that's like a really helpful way to, for us to frame things that we see on social media, like, is this, is this, uh, is this functional or is this an aesthetic? Right. More, more, more often than not on social media, it's an aesthetic, it's a hobby. It's not like a fundamental requirement for feeding our children.Whitney: That's so good. Gosh, I love, okay, it's called struggling. What's the account called? Laura: Struggle Care. Whitney: Struggle Care. That is the most beautiful like metaphor that I have heard in such a while. Like that is,Laura: It's so good. And she did a podcast with you know, like that 10% Happier podcast?Whitney: Yes. Yes.Laura: And she said in that, that she was inspired by like the anti-diet movement to talk about this. She's a therapist. But she kind of took like a lot of the teachings of like the anti diet, like body and body autonomy, and movements like that, and kind of like translated it into home care. So it makes a lot of sense because there are a lot of parallels in terms of like giving yourself permission for your house to be messy. Because what matters is that it's functional and it works for you. Similarly, like eating in a way that works for you rather than all these prescribed rules that diet culture teaches us. I mean, she articulates it a bit better than that, but like, yeah, that's her kind of general,Whitney: I love that so much. I feel like this podcast time was like for me today because I love this so much.Laura: Yeah, she's got, she's got a book. I haven't read it, but I need to get, I need to get on that because yeah, it's clearly she's got a lot of wisdom to share that I think like yeah, we can take for our, you know, to talk about yeah, to, in, in terms of how we can like give ourselves permission to feed our kids in a way that is functional rather than adhering to someone else's unrealistic standards and ideals, which is more about aesthetics than it is about nutrition. Okay.So I'm, I'm curious to know if there's anything else that you wanted to add to that, or if you feel like we've, likeWhitney: I feel like we've talked so about so many things. I love it. I feel like, yeah, so many things today, so far.Laura: Well, given that we have covered a lot of ground, there are, so there are two things that I ask at the end of every episode, and the first thing is that I would love to hear who or what is nourishing you right now.Whitney: Gosh, that's such a good question. So my partner is fabulous and just cannot speak the like enough amazing things. So my partner has been so amazing. Does a lot of the early morning routine , I'm notLaura: Love to see it.Whitney: Yes, I was a night shift nurse for years, and so I, just mornings are still hard for me, so definitely my partner has, has stepped up and I've been getting a lot of nourishment just from a lot of colleagues, you know. I just came back from New York. We were at A Project Heal which is an eating disorder nonprofit in New York City. And so it just felt so nice to be in space with people, you know, I just had really been craving that likeminded people, and so that was just so, just refreshing, like just for my soul, just to be, you know, so many people that I had met honestly over Instagram, right? Like most of the people there I had met and connected with over Instagram. So it was just so nice just to like be in space with them for the first time. So I loved that.Laura: Yeah. Especially like, I don't know how you feel, but if it just feels like, we're still sort of almost in this lockdown mentality of like not really being physically together a lot of times. And a lot of stuff is still like professional stuff is still online, which is great because it makes it really accessible, but at the same time you still miss out on that connection.So yeah. I was watch, I saw some of your stories and posts and stuff from New York and I was like, oh, you looked like you were having the best time.Whitney: It was so fun.Laura: And New York is such a fun city to be in. So yeah, it was like coming across for sure.Whitney: Yeah, I told my, I was telling my husband, I was like, I really wanna go back and take our little one when she's a little older, cuz it's so magical this time of year. And I didn't know that. Like I just, I, you know, I've never been to New York City like, you know, in holiday season and so it is just, it was so, it was cold, but it,Laura: I was just about to say, that's my like memory of New York in like November, December is it's fucking freezingWhitney: It is. It is.Laura: But also spectacular, so yeah. Yeah. Oh, well thank you for sharing that. And then the last, the last question that I have for you is what are you snacking on right now? So, at the end of every episode, my guests and I share something that they've been really into, something that they've been enjoying. Basically a recommendation that you have for the listeners.Whitney: Okay. So I am one of these people that I like to try seasonal things, so I've been trying a lot of mocktails. And we love donuts in our house. So I'm, I, yeah, I, we like love, like, donuts, coffee, chocolate milk, all the things. So I've been trying to do coffee mocktails with like a pastry each morning because it's kind of chilly here, but I just love warmth, just warm things. So that's what I've been doing a lot lately.Laura: So when you're saying a, like a coffee mocktail, is it warm or is it like a, oh, my. Okay. I feel like you need to give a bit more explanation here because like when you said mocktail, I thought you meant like, like an espresso martini, but,Whitney: Yes. So you could do that without the, which. Okay, so how I am, I could drink an espresso martini every day or Bailey's and so I love like a Bailey's Peppermint or like a Bailey liqueor but obviously, you know, at, uh, Laura: It's not, not totally advisable, right?Whitney: I've been doing the hot coffee and I've been exploring with like doing like, so this one dessert that I love to make is, it's cool whip, but I put, uh, okay, so I make, I melt chocolate chips and white chocolate, and then cocoa powder, whip that, let it cool. And then I fold that into like, cool whip or icing, let it freeze. So I'll put that in my hot coffee, let it melt, and then I'll do like a peppermint or a lavender, like simple, like a, a simple syrup thing.Laura: Oh wow.Whitney: And then I'll decorate that with like, and then I'll put more like, whipped cream on top, and I'll decorate that with like, uh, cinnamon or nutmeg or like pecan sprinkle, something like that.Laura: You are doing this for breakfast, like on a weekday.Whitney: Yeah. Yeah.Laura: Oh my God. I can like barely get some oatmeal on the table. That's impressive.Whitney: Yeah, just so I'm, I just finished my semester, so the school year is just so hectic for us because I'm in clinic, I'm getting my, I'm finishing my degree to be a psychiatric nurse practitioner, and so I usually was in clinic like 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM Tuesday, Wednesday, Laura: Uh,Whitney: So I just finished last week. I was in New York taking exams and so I had three weeks off. So I'm just gonna enjoy and do this.Laura: Okay. So your, yeah. Okay. This is a hobby for you. Then, you've got a little bit of extra time. It's luxurious. You're leaning into the seasonal mocktail drink situation. It sounds amazing. I would love to be at your house for breakfast,Whitney: Gosh. I wish I could make you one. I wish I could make you,Laura: I will take a recipe for one. If you have one to share. I will put it in the links.Whitney: Okay. Okay. I'll have to send you some recipes. So I love drinks, like I love beverages, it's so funny you said the word luxury. I made a mood board. Do you know, like Delina Soto, Nutrition Tea? Okay. So we're all like close friends, all met from Instagram, and we have this like nutrition chat. And so Clara was like, let's do a mood board. And so we all zoomed one night with our beverages and Canva. And did these like online mood boards, which were like, amazing. But like my word was luxury. And I was like, I'm really embracing that end of 2022, 2023,Laura: I love it. I love it. Channeling it for the new year. Clara was on Season One of the podcast, so yes. Yay. Yeah. She is known to us. Yeah, she's great. And yeah, I totally love that luxurious energy that you're bringing into 2023. All right, so real quick, my thing that I've been snacking on, so there is this like little brand in the UK I think it's like an independent female owned clothing brand. And they used to do a lot of kid stuff, but now they're doing grownup stuff, but it's still super cute and funky. And I just bought - I've linked to it in a newsletter, but I'll link to it again in this episode - just like a plain t-shirt, but it's got a cereal box, like a little drawing on the front and it's super cute. I just put it in my stories so you can go check that out afterwards. Whitney: Definitely will. Laura: But yeah, it's by Cub & Pudding and just like the cotton is super soft and it's like, you know, just like comfy on my body. I have no idea how I'm gonna wear it yet, but we're recording this before Christmas, even though it will come out afterwards. And yeah, it was like a little Christmas treat to myself. Whitney: I love that. Laura: And it just like is very on brand for me, so loving it. Whitney, it was such a pleasure to chat to you. And I wondered if you could please share where people can find you and, and hear more about your work.Whitney: Yes. Thank you so much for offering that. So my website is www.whitneytrotter.com. And then my Instagram, which I'm probably most accessible through is @whitneytrotter.rd.Laura: And I'll link to all of that in the show notes so people can find you. But this was such a lovely conversation. So thanks for being here. And yeah, everyone go and check Whitney out.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe
Today's conversation with Laura Hatley about using business as a form of activism fits under the P of Partnership. Laura Hartley is an activist, writer and founder of Public LovEd (pronounced Public Love Ed), an online school empowering changemakers & forward-thinking entrepreneurs to radically reimagine the world, creating the conditions for social healing and collective thriving. Laura's work centres around the three areas of transforming self, business and changemaking. She runs programs on healing burnout culture, business beyond capitalism & the inner work of dismantling capitalism and supremacy culture. Laura lives and works on Gadigal land in Sydney, Australia but can frequently be found travelling the world. In this episode, you'll learn about business as a form of activism as well as... The problem with capitalism If not this, then what? How can this new form of business look like? Laura's framework, The Business of Revolution Why business is political The difference between human-centered and life-centered How to approach the transition out of capitalism The importance of the inner work And so much more Laura's Resources Laura's Website The Public Love Project Podcast Download a free guide to Business Beyond Capitalism Connect with Laura on: LinkedIn Facebook Instagram Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] Hi, Laura. It's so good to speak to you today. I'm so excited for our conversation. Laura: Oh, thank you. So am I, I'm so excited to be here, so thank you for having me on the show. Sarah: Yeah, thanks. It's, it's good. We've had a couple of exchanges already, first on LinkedIn where we met, and then I attended your workshop, and then we're like, Oh, we gotta talk about this more. So now you're here and yeah, super excited to talk about business as a form of activism. [00:05:00] So as you know, Kind of organizing the conversations on this podcast around the seven Ps of humane marketing. And I was thinking, well, where does does fit? And to me it really kind of fit under the p for partnership. , in a way we're almost like partnering with activism. We're also partnering, you know, with our clients, but. In a bigger way, we're partnering kind of with our future and, you know, the future paradigm of business. So that's where I felt like it fits best. What do you think about that? Pick? How, how does that sound? Laura: I actually think it's perfect. You know, it is, It's partnering with our future. It's partnering with life, with a different world, with the vision that we want to see born. So I think partnership was the perfect p to put this. Sarah: Nice. Great. All right, so, we're talking about business as activism. I know, you also talk a lot about, you know, the, postcapitalism world, right? Like that's, that's really what [00:06:00] we're. Talking about here is like, there's something wrong with the way we do business now. And let's face it, the way we do business now is after, is according to this model of capitalism. And, and I just kind of touch upon it in, in my, marketing, like we're human book. I don't go too much into it, but I would love for you, because you talk about this a lot, I would love for you to kind of tell us, well, you know, capitalism maybe served us for a certain amount of time. Now there's definitely something probably wrong with that model, so take us through that. What's broken with capitalism the way we, , use it now. Laura: Oh gosh. I mean so many things, but I think to start, you know, this answer, it's really I wanna establish a business and capitalism and not the same thing. They're actually two very different things. You know, business is just a form of trade of goods or services, and it's existed for. Thousands of years, right? [00:07:00] It predated capitalism and it will exist after capitalism as well. So business itself is a bit different. Capitalism is the way that we organize wealth and commerce and you know, we tend to think that it's the, just the way the world works or it's the best system we've come up with. But capitalism's only about 500 years. And there are kind of three fundamental problems with capitalism. One is it's based on the pursuit of infinite growth on a finite planet. It's why it is the leading driver of the climate crisis. It's why we have this problem with extractivism with biodiversity loss. The second is the artificial production of scarcity. So capitalism is reliant on scarcity. It is scarcity that drives the growth. And you see that scarcity in a lot of different ways. You see it in marketing, You see it in planned obsolescence where we design products not to last. They're deliberately designed to die in order for us to buy more, and therefore we need to extract more, to have [00:08:00] more. And of course the third problem is the devaluation of complex living systems to lifeless resources. You know, forests, oceans, these beautiful, incredible natural world that we live in. Only has value when we can extract something from it. Mm-hmm. , even if that is tourism, it's still a way that humans can use it and therefore it has value as opposed to having an intrinsic right to have value in and of itself. So these three kind of principles of pursuit of infinite growth, you know, this artificial requirement and production of scar. You know, we're not talking real scarcity here. We're saying scarcity is embedded into the system in order for it to perpetuate. And the devaluation of complex living systems, the devaluation of our living world, is really what leads us to the crises that we see today. So what leads to the climate crisis? The loss of wildlife that we face, and in other forms as well, it perpetuates racial injustice and it perpetuates increasing wealth inequity. [00:09:00] Hmm. So capitalism. Has served us to a point, but we really need to look to go beyond it if we want to create a more beautiful world and if we wanna solve some of the challenges that we're facing as a speciess. Sarah: Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. There's so much in here. sounds like, okay, 1, 2, 3, but. Yeah, there is a lot, , in here that obviously, like you say, 500 years ago, those didn't seem like problems, right? We had no idea that eventually this growth, , oriented attitude would lead to certain problems. We were just like, Yeah. Oblivious to what was coming. But I would say probably even 50 years ago now, we were already, or at least a scientific, , kind of people, they were seeing that, okay, that this is gonna end so, , and, and yet not much was done. But as a marketer and as a kind of marketing [00:10:00] oriented podcast, obviously what really, , speaks to me and, and you know, that, that we have so much things that are aligned There is the second one, The scarcity cuz , yeah, that's, that's the one where, you know, I was also seeing, oh my God, there's something just so wrong with marketing and already we were starting to talk about using business for good and yet, , We didn't look at the marketing piece, that if we do business for good, we can't also still use, , you know, the marketing with the scarcity approach. We still, we also need to change that conversation. So, , yeah, for, for me, , when I started looking at, you know, a marketing revolution, it really, this word, , Anxiety came up so many times in the conversations that people felt marketing gave them anxiety or being the marketer gave them anxiety and, and I believe it had to do with the scarcity, right? Feeling that we are living in scarcity gives us anxiety. Would you agree to that? [00:11:00] Laura: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that's kind of the point of it. Mm-hmm. Is, you know, when we sell from scarcity is we're actually activating a person's flight or freeze response. Yeah. You know, that kind of panic decision to go, Oh my gosh, there's something wrong. I need to make a decision. If I don't take it like right now, I'm gonna miss out. And then if I miss out, What's gonna happen? You know, we, we insinuate these feelings like, You won't belong, you won't fit in. This is a one time offer. You won't be able to build your business as much. You're not gonna be able to enjoy this product. You won't be as cool, whatever it will be. You know, there are intended consequences that. We don't explicitly say, but are kind of underlying that scarcity tactic. Mm. And so whether it is simply countdown timers or you know, this real like by now there's only two seats left type thing, you know, this artificial and very often, , completely false scarcity that we could try to sell. Is creating this [00:12:00] constant stress and survival response within us. Mm. And of course, if we're then taking that into actually wanting a more beautiful world, none of us are making our best decisions when we're stressed. No. Like when we're in this state of being panicked and anxious. Yeah, we're making poor decisions from that Sarah: place. Yeah. Because we, we feel like we can't have the energy to look out for future generations or, or even just, you know, other people. We just feel like, Oh, there's not enough for ourselves. So first we need to feel safe ourselves, which is normal. I like totally understandable as well. But like you say, some of the scarcity is actually. Created. It's false. And if we do not always think, Oh, I have to get more and more and more, and kind of live outside of our maybe, comfort zone or, or, you know, realistic, , living what we actually need, then, then yeah, we're in this cons, constant tussle. Oh yeah. So [00:13:00] much. , agree with what you said. Okay. So we know that this is the state of things right now, so I'm curious to hear how you envision a new type of business. So the postcapitalism business, how does that look like? Paint the picture for us. Laura: You know, I think the beauty of post-capitalism is that it's not actually born yet. We're kind of co-creating it together. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So when people talk about going beyond capitalism, I wanna establish first as well, most people automatically talk about conscious capitalism as the alternative. Mm-hmm. and conscious capitalism. Obviously we had the kind of triple bottom line of like people, planet profit, and it seems like a great alternative to capitalism, but conscious capital. Has kind of added in some values. It's added in like some justice, like we need to care about people, we need to care about the earth. But it hasn't really dealt with the actual issue of looking for infinite growth [00:14:00] and it hasn't dealt with the issue of, , embedded scarcity within the system. It's perhaps dealt with the third issue. It's actually given some value to living systems. So, but it hasn't dealt with the other. Right. So when we're looking to go into post-capitalism, we're looking to kind of create an all new system together, you know, and this is something that's going to arise out of this time. Now, as entrepreneurs, this can mean a lot of different things for us, but really I think it's coming back to the values. Of our business and how we want to embody those values in every area, in our operations, in our marketing, in our sales, in our strategy, and to really bring them to life. So, you know, the first thing that I've mentioned here is this need for infinite growth that we see on the collective scale. And most of us have internalized this as well, to a degree, the sense that there's never enough. There's never enough time [00:15:00] that I'm never good enough that we end up internalizing perfectionism in the same way that, you know, I'm not quite there yet. It needs to be a little bit better. Where the sense that my business needs to grow faster, it needs to grow bigger. You know, I haven't got enough clients yet, and what we lost in this is this ability to know what it feels like to be satisfied, you know, to feel satiated, to feel enough. Right. And so when I'm looking at post capitalist business, it's not saying that growth doesn't have a place, It's not saying that we should all be struggling, that we shouldn't be earning money cause we should, you know, we need to support ourselves. We deserve to live flourishing, abundant lives. But it also means understanding what this feeling of enoughness is. Like, what actually feels good to us? What is the actual vision of the business that we want? And then how do we start to look at some of these other principles like abundance, like justice, like regeneration, and embedding them into all that we do. Sarah: I think once you [00:16:00] feel that you are enough and you have enough, then you actually get time to look at the other stuff, right? Which you can't, , if you're still struggling with de gotta get more clients and gotta grow and gotta scale and whatnot, then you just, your focus is not on, the other two things. I talk about. You are enough also in the marketing, like we're human bug. And it's, it starts in a way with the definition of success. I think that's where a big, problem lies as well, is like, how do we define success? Because if we never take the time to define it for ourselves, we're chasing after everybody else's definition of success, which, you know, is what we are fed. That it's always more and more and more. , so it sounds to me like. This new business, , as entrepreneurs, especially cuz that's who we we're talking to here is really starting with the, the inner work and starting there rather than always, you know, starting with [00:17:00] the business and who I am as the business owner. Uh, Do I hear that right? Yeah. Laura: Absolutely. I mean, oh, there's so many places I could go with this, but certainly in terms of success, you know, culturally we have such a narrow definition of success. Like we generally define success as more or growth, and certainly we define it in terms of money. Right. But you know, and this isn't to say that money doesn't make us happy because actually a certain level does. Right. , but we can have a much wider definition of success, right? So I remember. I was really fortunate a number of years ago to visit Bhutan, this tiny country between India and China that's famous for its development philosophy called Gross National Happiness. And you know, they measure the overall happiness of the nation as their primary determinant of success or wellbeing as opposed to countries like Australia where we primarily, , measure and value gdp, right? Or gross domestic product. And you know what I loved about [00:18:00] their model? Was, there were so many, layers and complexities to it, but also so many ideas which we could actually transfer into business. Mm-hmm. into redefining success for us entrepreneurs. You know, let's take time. Use as an example. You know, are we just using our days to fill the nine to five or you know, eight to six much more often or even longer, Or are we doing it to break free? You know, are we still feeling or experiencing that sense of time? Scar. Can we measure success through our health, You know, and how stressed we are, or how relaxed we are, or how relaxed our consumers or customers are when they interact with us, right? You know, we could also look at our working environment, how it makes us feel, or our contribution to the planet and the world around us. So really. Taking the time as an entrepreneur, I think to redefine what success actually means to us and to give it a much more holistic picture. Mm-hmm. of things that actually contribute to our wellbeing is really important. [00:19:00] Yeah. And then of course this inner work comes with that. You can't redefine success and actually understand what it means to you unless you're able to kind of stop and be with yourself for a moment and understand what is most important to you. Sarah: Yeah. And you brought up something that really was also a big aha in my, Personal development journey is this correlation between time and money. You know, you feel like, okay, finally you've dealt with your money story and you kind of detached yourself from this, tight hold on, on the money stuff. And then you realize, Hold on a minute, , I have the same kind of scarcity approach to time as I did to money. Because obviously also there's the saying time is money and all of that, right? and so, I feel like the new business paradigm also values time much more than or to an equal amount, at least as money. and really looking at how do we want to spend our time? And I, we [00:20:00] see that already post pandemic, right? People are like, Well, I don't want to commute two hours anymore. I'd rather spend that time with my family. So time has really gotten a new, Yeah, a new weight in terms of the values that , we, you know, prioritize. So I think this idea of figuring out how do you approach time? Are you still always hustling? and usually yeah, it's linked to money because you wanna. Use your time more efficiently in order to make more money. Right. It's just, Laura: it's crazy. It's linked to money, but it's also something that I think that I refer to as internalized capitalism. You know, internalized capitalism is the equation of our worth with our productivity, with what we produce. So it's not just about getting more money, it's, it's when we feel guilty, when we. Yeah. It's when we go into work, even when we're sick. Yeah. It's that sense of, you know, we've got a lot to power through in this meeting. We're just gonna squeeze a little bit more in mm-hmm. , [00:21:00] or, you know, I'm gonna like make this phone call while I'm on my run, while I'm like cooking dinner in the microwave or whatever it is. This feeling that there's just not enough time. Mm-hmm. , and it's partly because, you know, We have internalized the cultural systems around us to such a degree that says if I'm not doing enough, if I am not maximizing my time, if I'm not making every ounce of this, you know, which is scarce because everything is scarce. Then I'm not worthy. Right. Then I'm not good enough. Yeah. And so there's a lot of that kind of steeped into it as well. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So good. , let's talk about the transition because you know, as people are listening, they're, they're like, Yeah, that sounds great. You know, Yes, I wanna be feeling more, , at ease and relaxed about my business. And, but how do I make the transition and. I just feel like I'm not there yet, but I'm definitely on a good pass. I feel like , I, you know, I block time now [00:22:00] for, , walks outside, like every day I have an hour, , going for walks either with a dog or with friends. I make that my priority before any kind of business stuff. And, and I do my yoga, so things that matter to me and that I know they're, , Things that matter, , you know, 10 years from now. So it's, it's kind of this longer vision rather than just, you know, what do I do today in order to make my business grow? So, , and yet I do have that, I feel like this internalized capitalism because as a Gen Xer, That's just how we grew up with, right, How we grew up. It's like all these things that we hear in our head and it feels, it feels very challenging to want to do things differently when. Every where you look, people are still talking. You know, the old talk about scaling and hustling and you know, maybe, maybe in the corporate [00:23:00] world there's a bit less of that because you still get paid if you don't, you know, if you don't commute or whatever. But has entrepreneurs, Well, it's still about, you know, how do I make a living and how do I make enough so I feel like. It would be interesting for you, you to share also, how do you take care of yourself while going through this transition knowing that we're not there yet, and so you are probably gonna be one of the few who thinks like that. I think that's the point I'm trying to make because believe me, I feel alone a lot of times when I feel like my week is really easy and I don't. You know, a lot of work and I give myself time to grow the circle, for example, and I feel. Am I doing this right? You know, who, who, who else is out there? Who does it like, like I wanna do it. Laura: Oh, you know, I so get that , few weeks ago, I think I decided to kind of just take a step back from launching anything. I was a bit [00:24:00] overwhelmed. I had a lot happening in my personal life. I wasn't ready with the materials like I wanted to be. And I'll say, Okay, no, like just pause. Take the time. You know, I'm very privileged and fortunate that I was in a position that I didn't have to make money right then and there. You know, that may have been a different story, right? But of course then in taking this time, then this is Pushful of, am I doing enough? You know, am I doing this the way that I should? Because like everything out there says that I need to be doing this now. Mm-hmm. , you know, but there's a part of me that's going, No, it's actually. Everything has a season, everything has a time. And to trust that, Yeah, So there is so many different practices I think in, in taking care of ourselves throughout this, but for me, I think it's about returning back to my body, to what it's really feeling, what it's offering, what its energy level is. Because so often, We override our body. You know, when our body needs rest or it needs pleasure, or it [00:25:00] needs stimulation, or whatever it is. And we go, No, I've gotta work. No, I've gotta do this. I've gotta send this email, I've gotta launch this course. I've gotta put this out into the world. And when we do this, when we override our body enough, when we're so disconnected from it, then we really lead to a state of burnout very easily. Mm-hmm. . So coming back to. What am I really feeling? What is true for me in this moment? And then what do I ac? What are my desires right now? What am I callings right now? And so, yes, I need discipline. Yes, I need structure. These are important things that every entrepreneur needs, but also a little bit of trust of ourselves and trust that there is a. And if it is not the time now, that it will be the time at some point that you need to be ready for that. Right. And you need to trust that you'll know when it is. Mm-hmm. . Sarah: Yeah. It really sounds like, , this balance between the being and the doing that I talk a lot about on the podcast, you know, this yin and yang, all of this, and. And if you are [00:26:00] struggling in your mind, which we often do when we're thinking about growth and those things, then it's time to come back to the yin, which in what you said is the body, and you know, just the energy and, and give the mind and break and say, Yeah, I know you want to, you know, grow or whatever, but right now we need to focus on on other things. Yeah. This is so good. Laura: Yeah. I wish there was some nice easy answer for so much of this. Like, you know, you just like, tick this box or like, you know, you take this pill or press X button, whatever it is. Like it doesn't exist. It is this nuanced kind of place between the being and the doing that is like the perfect description. Sarah: Yeah. Do you feel like though, I mean you already are younger than I am, and do you feel like the new generations. It will come easier for them because maybe already they see more people doing it in a different way. Laura: [00:27:00] I want to say yes. , yes and no. I think it really depends on, The environment in which you have for young people been raised in and what they're coming out of. Mm-hmm. , You know, I think for the younger generations there is already an inherent distrust of the system and a desire to do things differently, and I think that is really powerful. And then it will be how, and I know some amazing young people who are already doing this, but how they choose to challenge those systems, right? It's very easy still to kind of fall into. A, or resistance to systems, or as opposed to, Okay, let's actually build something new. Right? And so my hope for the generation younger than me and also for my own, is that we continue to build something new that we do both. That's a place for resistance, and there is a place for trialing and prototyping and experimenting with a new way to do business and a new form of entrepre. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a good segue into your business of Rev [00:28:00] Revolution. So I talk about the Humane marketing revolution. You talk about the revolution, , for business itself, and you have this framework also with the six leaves. Maybe just quickly, , cuz we don't have that much time left, but quickly give us the different leaves and then I wanna dive into the one about choosing life and human centered versus life centered. But give us the tour of the six pillars. Laura: Yeah. So I run a program called Business for the Revolution, and this is really. I hesitate to use the word anti-capitalist, but it's really about exploring what it is for entrepreneurs and solo entrepreneurs to explore business beyond capitalism using feminist principles and anti-oppressive principles. So there's six pillars upon which the work is based, which is really about using abundance over scarcity. So really looking at what it would mean to feel like there's enough. To know that there's enough and to really market and sell at the speed of trust and relationality. The [00:29:00] second is understanding that everything is relational. Everything is connected. You know, there's so many sayings like it's business not personal, and you know, the ends justify the means, or, you know, it's, it's not, it's not real. It's just what I do here, or leave your personal life at the door, whatever it might be. But recognizing that actually business is an extension of us. It is just another ways we're relating to one another. So understanding everything is relational and we need to come back to everything is connected. Now, the third that you mentioned is choose life. You know, in an age of ecological breakdown, which we are in, it is not enough to be sustainable, like sustainability is too often about maintaining the status quo. We need to be actively regenerating both the earth and our culture. So really exploring this idea of a regenerative culture. Right. The fourth principle is dream deeper. You know that we need to embed our vision, our values, and [00:30:00] our vocation. Those callings into everything that we do. We need to really reimagine the world and then reimagine how we want our business to serve a more beautiful world. So we're kind of widening the scope of what we're trying to picture. Fifth principle is that business is political. , for too long business has upheld and perpetuated, , racism, white supremacy, injustice. It still does, Capitalism does, and a lot of global business does where, where more disconnected from it than perhaps we used to be, but it still exists. So understanding that business is political and that we need to be conscious of how we're embed. Anti oppressive and feminist principles into what we do. Mm-hmm. . And the sixth and final principle is about wide streams of value. So Edward Abbey once said that growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. And you know, I love that because when you think about the natural world, the only thing that grows with [00:31:00] that end is cancer until it kills itself. Mm-hmm. . So what we. Looking defined with this principle is really redefining success away from growth. What are our wide streams of value over our tall mountains of growth? So these six principles are really about reimagining how we do business and how we want to show up in our business. It's about embedding these values into our strategy, into our operations, into our marketing, into our sales, into every aspect. So it's no longer about just what we sell or what we do or what we're offering to customers, but the way in which we run the business. Sarah: Mm. Yeah. I just love that so much, really, resonated with me. And on that workshop we, I was on, I was like, Yep. I gotta talk to you, Laura, and have her on my podcast and, and I learned a lot more having this conversation, so thank you so much. One of the concepts that I also kind of had a big aha around was this idea of [00:32:00] human centered versus life centered, right? , human centered is a term that. Myself and other people in business marketers, , have been using a lot, these past years. And it kind of almost got like, you know, like authentic. It became this buzzword. Oh, if you say human centered, then, then that means you're, you're getting it. And, and so when you, , said, Well, actually we need to extend it to life centered, it really kind of blew my mind a little bit. I. Wait a minute, I thought I'd been having it right. All this, all this time, and now here you are expanding my thinking and saying, Yeah, human centered is good, but let's extend it to life. So maybe just talk to us a little bit about the difference in what life centered really means and how, how that looks like in, in the marketing world, for example. Laura: So for me with this point, I think I was speaking about, you know, when we're [00:33:00] talking about the ideology of how capitalism shows up in business, is that it's very human and and human centered. And when we're looking to go beyond capitalism, what would look different? And we're like, well, actually it would just be life centered. And really what this was about was breaking down the binary that there is a difference between humans and the planet or humans in the natural world. Mm-hmm. as if somehow what is good for humans might be good for the planet, it might not be. Or you know, what's good for the planet probably won't be good for humans and vice versa. They're not. We are of the natural world. We are the natural world. We are intrinsically linked. Right. When we're looking as well at these deeper mindsets that actually influence capitalism that have led to the climate crisis and some of the struggles that we are facing today. So much of that comes from a place of separation or a place of domination that humans are somehow separate from everything else and that humans are somehow. Better than or above. And you know this principle, [00:34:00] it's not about being all airy fairy and like, Oh, we need to just, you know, like save every dolphin. We should all be vegans, or whatever it is. It's really just about widening the sphere of value to go beyond the human and to look at the essence of life, you know, the essence of life that animates all living things on this planet and to understand. Where there might be value for that. Now you can apply this really looking at regenerative culture into our supply chains, you know, and what is happening at the ends of the supply chain that perhaps we don't see, you know, really examining every end in our marketing. I actually am very curious to hear from you, cause I think you are the expert here around what it might mean to have a life centered approach. Yeah. Sarah: Actually, I'd love to hear from you on that. Mm-hmm. . Yes. So to me, really. I think it, it's a, a different stage, , and maybe, you know, depends on where people [00:35:00] are in their journey. Coming to human centered is the first stage in some kind of development, right? Maybe they have been just. Focused on growth and numbers and scaling and money making. And so coming back to human centered, I feel like that's the first stage maybe in this personal development and kind of seeing the bigger picture. And yet, and once you, you know, got that and you're like, Yes, human connections are important, I think then you are ready to go to the next stage and say, We might have a very limited time here on Earth. It's not enough anymore to just talk about human connections. We really need to extend it. And to me, that brings in this idea of the triple bottom line and doing marketing in a way that involves, yes, our human relations, but then also the win for the planet. And so really, using. [00:36:00] What I talk a lot about in humane marketing is our worldview in our marketing. And that worldview has to do not just with the humans making doing business, but also, , you know, what do we stand for, , in terms of our values and how do we plan to, save this planet somehow. So I feel like it's. a third stage of getting more connected and seeing business as having a role to play in the whole sustainability piece, Right? So, Laura: human flourishing is tied to ecological, flourishing, Right? You know, this idea that we can flourish when the earth is not, or that we can just go to another planet is, you know, It's not accurate. Yeah. It's part it. It will catch up with us. Yeah. And so it's really bringing it back to, Okay, well actually you're right. As business owners, I think we have a tremendous source of power. Even those of us who are solar printers, like you don't have major global [00:37:00] Fortune 500 companies. I don't think they can lead the way to change because they're too stuck in the old paradigm. Yeah. But when you're looking at small businesses and how we can pivot and how we can use our values and. And embed this idea of regeneration, of embedding life, giving principles into all that we do. So into physical products, into supply chains, into materials, but into our communities, into our cultures, into our interactions is so important. I love that definition and I agree it's this kind of next stage of looking at it beyond the human. Yeah. Sarah: The other thing that comes up for me is also what we previously discussed of, you know, seeing the new definition of business post-capitalism. , about something that is holistic and it includes our whole life , and how do we want to create this life, and make it life centered and not just maybe business centered or money centered. So to me [00:38:00] it's also this idea of life centered means we want to create a sustainable life for us ourselves without burnout. So beyond the sustainability piece, which is important. I also feel like life centered means well, let's create a life that we can sustain and, and that we enjoy living rather than, you know, going into that hustle mode and, and always making more and more and more. Laura: Yeah, I think it's about flourishing. Mm-hmm. , you know, it's about thriving. Yeah. And too often we don't think of that in our society or in business. You know, we kind of focus on like just getting by or like just being good enough, you know? You know, How are you? , Sarah: good. I'm busy. You know, Instead of Yeah. Laura: Yeah. But instead we could be flourishing. We could be thriving, and. Shouldn't we, You know, why not design our lives and design our business to promote human, our own and ecological [00:39:00] flourishing, You know, so they're all live around us. And this doesn't mean you need to be out there working with dolphins or whatever else. No. Yeah. But the essence of what you're doing is embodying the principle. Yeah. And that I think is where the change comes Sarah: from. Yeah. I. I'm so glad you brought up the, the busy answer cuz that's when I notice my internal capitalism every time somebody, you know tells me, Oh, I'm busy, I'm. I don't know. I'm not that busy , so am I doing something wrong that I'm not that busy, but I just, yeah. I'm not buying into the busy stuff anymore. I'm like, I don't wanna be busy. And even if I'm, you know, working on something that I wanna really get out, then I don't call it busy. I guess I just. College. Yeah. I'm working on something that gives me great joy. I just feel like busy now has a bad after paste Laura: Yeah. You know, this idea, we need to stop the glorification of busy. Yeah. Because again, but it's that link to the fact [00:40:00] that we're always, well, if we're busy, we're doing more, where we're keeping up, we're doing enough. Like, so that sense of scarcity underlying. Busy is really important to notice. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I know we could keep going and we're, we're having a real fun here, but, , I think we need to start wrapping it up, but this has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Please do share, with people where they can find out more about you, your work, your program. Laura: , yes. So you can go to my website. My school is called Public Love Enterprises. So Public Love Do Enterprises. You can find me on Instagram at Laura Do H dot Hartley. I'm also on LinkedIn and Facebook. So please check us out. Google. Laura Hartley, Public love, public love enterprises, and I look forward to, , Working with you further and getting to know your guests and thank you to everyone who is listening. Sarah: Yeah, thanks Laura. I have one last question. , what are you grateful for today or this week? What comes up? Laura: I'm grateful [00:41:00] for my partner. I have an incredibly supportive partner who always brings me back to myself when I start to go somewhere else. Nice. And so she's who I'm grateful for. Sarah: Nice. Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing and for being here. Thank you.[00:42:00]
Melissa wants her daughters to avoid relationships with abusive men, but she knows that she set the opposite example with her marriage to their father. - Dr. Laura: "You can't change the past, but you can remedy the situation with honesty, compassion and validation."Is your marriage one your children can admire? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
James is beating himself up for not taking advantage of a real estate opportunity that he believes would have been great. - Dr. Laura: "You deserve a pat on the back instead of a kick in the pants."Are you happy with the path you've taken in life? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Brandi wants Dr. Laura's advice on how to stop making poor relationship choices. - Dr. Laura: "You are worth more than your bad choices."What bad choices are you making in life? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Keesha invited her loser brother to live with her, but the arrangement is making her pretty unhappy. - Dr. Laura: "You'll be better off when you start putting more thought into important life decisions."What decisions have you made that you wish you could undo? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Miriam is struggling as the mom of a 5-year-old and attributes her parenting challenges to her ADHD. - Dr. Laura: "You'll be a better mother when you stop viewing yourself as broken."Do you believe you are a good parent? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Laurie and her son are estranged since she told him she doesn't like how his fiancé and her mother to boss him around. - Dr. Laura: "You trained your son to rely on others to tell him what to do."Are you allowing someone to tell you how to live? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Renee's husband encouraged her to pursue her dream job, but now he's pressuring her to reject the job offer. - Dr. Laura: "You have to decide if his pattern of controlling behavior is something you want to continue living with."Does your spouse support your dreams? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Vanessa dislikes a certain personality trait that she inherited from her mother and wants to make a change for the better. - Dr. Laura: "You're an adult who doesn't have to live in fear of upsetting her mother anymore."Have you felt like you were turning into your parent? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Why is Valerie driven to obsessively snoop on her husband's devices looking for porn when finding it makes her so unhappy? - Dr. Laura: "You've designed a way to protect yourself and gain leverage in this relationship." Do you snoop on your spouse? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Leslie and her husband are ready to move on from traveling with their long-time friends, but what's the right way to let them know? - Dr. Laura: "You cannot constrain your life in order to avoid hurt feelings."Have you outgrown a friend relationship? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
22-year-old Connor is at a loss for direction now that his girlfriend of the past 5 years has moved away. - Dr. Laura: "You're just at the beginning of figuring out who you are and where your life is headed."At what age did you figure out what you wanted your life to look like? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
How should Michelle respond to her mother who just confessed that she cheated on Michelle's father? - Dr. Laura: "You are her child, not her friend. Don't let her burden you with her drama." What do you wish your parents would refrain from sharing with you? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Allison says she is sad and having a hard time moving on after breaking off a three-way love affair. - Dr. Laura: "You've successfully avoided the risk of a one-on-one relationship."Have you ever been involved in a love triangle? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
In this deep episode we dive into the awakening process, lifting the veil and removing paradigms that no longer serve you and bravely walking your courageous path & honouring your intuition with today's guest expert Dr.Laura Foster. I have been following Dr.Laura for a few years now and love how she bravely speaks her truth and is always such an inspiration for other women to do the same, so of course, I am beyond grateful to have her on the podcast today to share her wisdom with all of you. Dr. Laura Foster, life and mindset coach to women, retired chiropractor, curator of ROOTS + The Sisterhood, yoga teacher, podcaster, retreat leader and founder of Soul Inspired Gurl. Simply put, she is on a mission to lead women back to themselves and transform the way we show up in the world one bold and courageous step at a time.Dr.Laura is a mom to two amazing boys, united with her partner Paul and her blended family of six. You can find them hiking the trails of Kelowna, BC or hanging on their property in Costa Rica with their dog Bodhi and growing community of conscious humans. Laura lives for genuine connection, wholehearted living and slowing down to savour the sweetness of life. In this Episode:- Dr. Laura shares her story- The awakening process and listening to the intuitive nudges- Ask, are you overstaying?- Courageously walking your path and sharing your truth- Projections - you don't have to hold other people's projections on your own life- Breaking down to breakthrough- Peeling back the layers and shattering illusions- Taking radical responsibility - How to welcome in the uncomfortable or heavier emotions- Understand that if you keep walking the path it will be shown to you in divine timing- Why self-compassion is so important on your awakening journey- How to start to listen to the whispers of your soul- Can you speed up the awakening process? Let go of the resistance and create or dedicate time to get quiet and listen within more- Priming the Quantum Field- Letting go of perfection and the illusion of it and meeting yourself where you are- Showing up for the afterConnect with Laura - You can find her daily dropping truths on the gram @soulinspiredgurl, weekly on her Soul Inspired Gurl Podcast and forever co-creating the future with the women who are in my signature program ROOTS + The Sisterhood.The Two Books Laura Recommended in this episode:1. When You're Ready This is How You Heal by Brianna West2. THE GENE KEYS: Embracing Your Higher Purpose by Richard RuddBoundaries Episode on the Soul Inspired Girl PodcastFollow and connect with the podcast on the gram: @divinehealthpodcast or connect with me @pam_rocca or visit the website: www.pamrocca.comIf you love this episode please screenshot and share and tag us. Also if you enjoyed this episode or podcast please take a moment to leave a 5-star review and love note, it helps others know what the podcast is all about.
Andrea wonders how she can maintain a relationship with her parents who don't get along and constantly put Andrea in the middle of their drama. - Dr. Laura: "You allow yourself to be abused when you listen to their complaining."How do your parents get along? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com What should we do when we've been wronged? In "Surviving a Shark Attack (On Land)," I wrote about overcoming betrayal, humiliation, and pain, including how I've faced challenges in my own life. For a limited time, get the eBook for $1.99 when you click here - https://www.drlaura.com/dr-laura-book-surviving-a-shark-attack-on-landTo participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Kassie doesn't want to see or discuss her friend's husband after learning about the abusive ways he has treated his wife. - Dr. Laura: "You have the right to decide who and what you allow into your life."Have you ever been the unwilling sounding board for a friend? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Teresa isn't sure what to say to her daughter about the secret wedding plans she stumbled upon while searching for information about her daughter's fiancé. - Dr. Laura: "You ask for trouble when you choose to snoop."Has your snooping ever backfired? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Maria says that, since giving birth to her daughter three years ago, her husband has grown distant and isn't showing her the love and affection she needs. - Dr. Laura: "You have to give warmth in order to get it."How has having children changed your marriage? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Max performed poorly in his special Navy program because he had a change of heart and is worried about how to tell his parents that he was released. - Dr. Laura: "You are the architect of your life."Do you allow other people's opinions influence your decisions? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Joshua's father expects him to work in the family business, but he'd like to take a different path. - Dr. Laura: "You're not obligated to follow in your father's footsteps."Is there something you're afraid to admit to your parents? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Gigi took Dr. Laura's advice on how to live after the death of her husband, and she has a beautiful update to share. - Dr. Laura: "You honor your husband by embracing life."Have you had to start over after the death of a spouse? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Angela's mother-in-law is uncomfortably involved in her marriage, and Angela and her husband are ready to move away. - Dr. Laura: "You can't fix a mama's boy, but you can move away from mama."How's your relationship with your mother-in-law? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
When we listen to a missionary it often causes us to reflect. Does my life have a larger meaning like there's? Do I see God at work as they do? Listen in to today's show where we hear the story of a couple who changed the trajectory of their lives by leaving the business world to become missionaries. Why this topic at this time? Today's episode is in response to a podcast listener by the name of Patty who said she'd like to hear more interviews with missionaries. I can see why. They are some of the most interesting people around. To talk with a missionary is almost always an interesting conversation. And more than interesting, whenever we truly hear the story of another person, whether they're a missionary or not, it can't help but cause us to reflect upon our own story. For today's show, I interviewed two of my friends, Billy and Laura Borkenhagen, to learn from them and their life-changing missionary story. One thing that's different about today's episode is that I have a word-for-word transcript of my interview in the show notes. It was done using AI - artificial intelligence software. I have been wanting to experiment with this for a while. And if actual transcripts are something you'd like to see more of, please let me know. Okay. Let's get on with it. Interview transcript John: So Laura and Billy, tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming missionaries. I mean, you both had pretty great careers and you left all of that to become missionaries in a camping ministry. Laura, why don't we start with you first? Laura: Sure. So yeah, Billy and I met in college and Billy became an architect and I began working in marketing. We both worked at the Kohler Company for our careers. I even traveled internationally for, a bit of time, which was really fun and fixed up a house. And I, I ran, I started my own photo business and Billy started working downtown in Milwaukee. We had three kids and life was, you know, kind of how I had it planned in my Excel spreadsheet of how I wanted my life to be. Yeah. And so we had taken our family with our three kids up to camp just to attend a winter camp and, just really had a great time. And so the next year we decided to go back and while we were there, I was reading in the dining hall. They have all the missionaries, like a little bio about each one of them and I was reading them. And at the end there was a job posting. I wasn't looking for a job, but I just, in that moment, I knew that that was my job. And that kind of just started a journey of us asking questions. And yeah, it was a bit of a story, but we, we ended up both joining as missionaries at, at Fort wilderness. And now we're here in the north woods. John: Well, tell us a little bit about what camping is at Fort wilderness and what your role is there. Laura: Sure. Fort wilderness is a camping ministry it's in Northern Wisconsin and it really aims to do, do four things. They get people out in God's creation in the outdoors just immersed, in what God's created, gives people God's word. So at all the different camps and retreats, there's always a speaker or, or way for you to hear, hear God's word. And then they use adventure programming. So things like horses and water slides and tubing Hills, and swimming and all sorts of adventure things. And then the fourth one is community. And so, so you're, you're always in Christian community. So it uses those four things and it's year round, summer, winter fall. And then there's camps for families. There are things just for youth where they get dropped off for, for a week or so there's a college age program. And then there's adult programs where it's like, just adults, like a men's retreat or women's retreat. John: So you're doing, you're doing your marketing thing, part-time from your home and Billy's still working in the Milwaukee area as an architect, correct? Laura: Yeah. That's how it started. I, I saw this job posting and I said, Hey, would you consider someone working part-time remote because I'm not moving that was my quote. And funny how, how God, every time I've said I would not do something, I feel like I've done it. John: Yeah. Laura: Yeah. So the, they were like, well, maybe like why? And I was like, well, I'm not interested in moving, but oh, I'd love to like work for Fort. And so they entertained the idea. They're like, sure, like think about it, pray about it. So I applied, I interviewed and I became the first ever remote employee. Working from the Milwaukee area while Billy was working in Milwaukee and the plan, I was willing to raise support as a missionary, but they said, well, we've never had anyone working remotely. So they offered me a six month contract where they paid me and they said at six months, if it works out, then we'll talk about raising support said, okay. So the six month mark comes and, and COVID had hit. And so I, I was not the only remote employee anymore cuz lots of people were working remote at that point. Laura: But the six month mark came and we were up at camp helping out and I was supposed to have this meeting about raising support. But before that meeting Billy's boss approached him and said, Hey,, there's really no job available, but I really need an architect. And you're married to Laura. Like, would you guys consider moving up here and, joining staff. And we were like, um maybe I'm not sure. And so the short story, they sent us home and said pray about it for the next 30 days. And we said yes, after that 30 days, cuz we really felt, felt the Lord every, there was a hundred instances where we felt like, wow, the Lord is just really showing us and opening this door. John: Yeah. And Billy, that was quite a, I mean it was big change for Laura, but, but you actually gave up a pretty great job as an architect. How did, how did that, how did God work in your life to, to do such a thing? Billy: Yeah. I really thought that I would retire at HGA cuz it was a really good firm and my opportunity to work there was pretty unique and through one of my college professors, so I had a good job and I liked it. I think the shortest way I can answer that. The short story is that by a combination of the opportunities at Fort wilderness, the special needs that they had and then some things that God was doing, not only in my life, but in Laura's life, separately, but at the same time. And each of us made it pretty clear to us that this is something that, we should step into. And that was kind of the answer to the prayer that we got. So that's the very short version of that story. I think the longer version is that God had showed me very clearly that we weren't in total control of our lives. Billy: As much as you think you are, as much as you think the way you live or the job you have or the community you're in is giving you some sense of control God had shown us in personal ways that we're actually not in control. And so that put our minds in a place where I think we were willing to consider leaving all of the stuff that we've built up over the years and taking a risk of stepping in, into sort of this unknown role and fulfilling this, what was a, a clear need, but an unknown role for us. And so the timing of that sensation with the open doors and the opportunities and all of that is really what compelled us to seriously pray about it and determined this is where God was leading us. John: Mm yeah. So it's not like you were, you were running away from something that, you know, things are going along pretty well. And, but here is something that was better that God was leading you to. Billy: Yeah,Absolutely. I mean, it's still to be honest, you know, sometimes at our worst we're tempted to think like, man, did we, you know, you get to this point where can't go back and you're like, did we make a mistake? You know, going forward. And yeah. And I think a lot of that is just the enemy tempting us and trying to, you know, keep us from what God's called us into. But yeah, absolutely. It wasn't certainly wasn't running away. In fact it was quite when we came to Fort wilderness, for me personally, I had a lot of support and encouragement from peers and coworkers and even my own supervisor when I left and broke the news to him that I was, you know, gonna be resigning in the next month and talked to him. He this was God's grace. Billy: He had offered that, you know, he is like, he's like, I, I'm not gonna ask you to stay and offer you more money cuz I understand why you're doing this, he's like, but if things don't work out in spring and your support raising, isn't going well, he's like just call me, you know, I could throw some work your way and you could work remotely. Everybody was working remotely at that time. Anyway. So things like that were super helpful and leaving on leaving with good rapport and on good terms is, you know, something you still think about, especially in those moments when you're doubting and you know, wondering, and life is seeming more complicated than it probably should be. John: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting, you know, one definition of a missionary is someone who goes from one culture to another culture to, in some ways spread the good news of Jesus Christ. Now you move from one part of Wisconsin to another part of Wisconsin, but did you notice any cultural differences between where you were living in, in an urban setting compared to ....your smiling ... Um compared to living in the north woods? Tell us about the change in culture. Laura: Yeah, yeah. That's such a good, good question. You know, I think, I think I know that I downplayed this. I was like, and we've, we've had this whole discussion of what is the definition of a missionary and, and there's different ones. You know, at Fort we raise, we raise our support, meaning that our salaries paid to us. We had to talk to our church and friends and family and they support us monthly and that money pays our salary. So you know, that, that was one thought I had and because we were doing that support raising, I was like, yeah, I'm mean, and there isn't really the cultural thing because we're in Wisconsin and we're still gonna be in Wisconsin. And I, I should have, have thought about that more. It's been a drastic cultural change, both from just living in the city to living in the north woods, but also just not being on the corporate world schedule economy. Laura.: It's been challenging. I think mainly because I downplayed it. It was like, it's no, no big deal. We're just moving four hours away. It's no big deal.... And it, it has been a big deal. Mm. And I, you know, John, you told us, you have a lot of people that listen to your podcasts that are missionaries. And so I don't want that to come across as we did something as, as hard as moving to another country. In fact, I'm saying, wow, this has been a struggle. And we moved four hours and I can't imagine someone moved actually to a different our country. Yeah. we, you know didn't have language barriers or, or any of, of those things. So I don't, I don't wanna diminish, I mean yeah. Mm-Hmm, even more strength it must take to, to go to another country. John: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. How about for you, Billy? What, how has the cultural change, affected you or did it,? Billy: Yeah, certainly I think, especially cuz we moved from a pretty tight knit community and we had a lot of overlap between our church community and our living community mm-hmm . And so the people that we'd see and bump into at church on Sunday were also people that we'd see and bump into, you know, walking around sidewalks and we're just kind of doing life together. And that's, so it's a little, it's much more spread out up here just physically and logistically to overlap and to kind of get insights into people's lives or invite people into your lives is just logistically more challenging. So that was a, that's a big thing. I think that just drives sort of a different culture in the way. Probably that people are just and this is, I don't like to make general statements, but are just less accustomed to always being around mm-hmm you and other of people, you know, it's just, it's just kind of, there's a different vibe to it. Billy: But I think to add to what Laura was saying one of the challenges, and maybe this is less about culture is just being, feeling unestablished. I think when you go from a place where you feel established or you built a home and a life and you go to another place, whether that's 30 minutes away or on the other side of the world, there's a part of you. I think that I felt that where we feel like foreigners a little bit, like we're not, we, we didn't grow up here. You know, we haven't, our kids weren't raised here. We don't have the history, we don't know the places. We don't know the landmarks, all the, all the things that make you kind of have this sense of home and establishment, we're trying to piece together and, you know, get a grip on a little bit. So in that sense, maybe that amplifies the, what we perceive as like a difference in cultures from one to the other. But I think, that's a big part of it. John: Mm. Yeah. You know, one of those things that, we talk a lot about on the podcast is relationships. Have you noticed any differences in relationships where you're living now compared to where you were living, where you came from? Are they, are they different? Are they the same? How has your move affected the relationship between the two of you and, you know, your children, your parents? Has that been affected in any way? Billy: Yeah, I think , sometimes there might be the sense that if God's calling you to something and you understand that call and you accept that call, that you've arrived and you've, you've kind of done it and accomplished, you know, like the rest of this story is, and they lived happily ever after, you know, and I think that one of the things I've come to recognize, especially with relationships is that God doesn't, you know, call the equipped, but that he calls everybody, especially us to come here to grow. And so we've, I think that Laura and I, you know, between the two of us have had growth in our relationship, even in the past weeks. And some of that, I contribute to God, specifically pushing us and growing us in areas together as a married couple. And a lot of it has to do with, you know, that whole being established thing. I think that maybe he hasn't let us get too established yet because he does want us to not be too dependent on things. He loves us too much to let us get established in maybe bad routines or things like that. Mm-Hmm so he's working on us and you know, would he have done that? Had we not slipped into this fall? I don't probably, I don't know, but it seems like as we're here specifically, you know, making our work, his work, he's been pretty intentional in growing us as a married couple. John: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Laura: I think yeah, our relationships have, have definitely every single one has changed. One thing we were talking about just tonight was so we had this great community where we lived and with our church and our neighborhood and Bible studies, we were in, like, we just, we had this great, great community. Right. And like, lots of people knew we were Christians, but yet we become a missionary. Right. And, so now all these friends know that we did this big thing and moved, right. And like Billy said, like, somehow you can feel like you've arrived. And, and cuz people would say that to you like, oh, I could never do that, but I'm so glad you're doing it. Like as if we're all of sudden somehow elevated, which is just not true, God comes to us in our brokenness. But, the really surprising, you know, the sad change is like, of course, like you don't keep in touch as much as you want because we're here now. Laura: And a lot of our relationships where we lived, like everyone walked places, we only had one car and we almost never used it. Like, so you would just run into people and connect with them. And so that's gone, like, you know, you still can text people and call people, but like that daily interaction it's not there. And so that, that was a great, great loss, but this beautiful thing that's come is people, whether they support us financially or not, we'll text us prayer requests. And it's like, I used to talk to you every day and you never asked me to pray for you. but now I'm a missionary. And like, I get the honor of people reaching out and being like, Hey, this is going on. I know you said that we could reach out for prayer you prayed for this. And I was like, wow, like, so that's been a beautiful change in, in the relationship. Mm-Hmm. That I wasn't expecting to be honest, like I was not expecting that at all. So, yeah. John: Cool. And, tell us about your, kids. You got three young kids. What about your relationship with them and their own individual relationships? Can you comment on that? Laura: You know, it was, it was a really big change for them too. And, and for context, our kids, when we moved were, seven, five and three, when we moved and, and I thought, you know, yeah, they've got friends, but they're super young. You know, they're not gonna, I, I didn't think it would be a huge deal, but there was a lot of factors. They were in public school, COVID hit. Then they were home. Then we decided to homeschool. Then we decided to become missionaries. And so they had like major change after major change, after, or major change. So I, I think there's been highs and lows mm-hmm and I think, I think something God's taught me in it is you can plan all you want and pick out, oh, this community is gonna be best for my kids, or this school is gonna be best, or this church home is gonna be best. But at the end of the day, there's not one perfect place to raise kids. And it's gonna be hard whether we're missionaries in the Northwood of Wisconsin or we're in this perfect picked out community. Mm-Hmm because we had picked out, you know, where we lived was because of the schools and the church and the community and, and there's pros and cons to any place you live. And at the end of the day, you have to put the time into parenting and you've got to rely on the Lord. John: Mm-Hmm Laura: I think the Lord's for sure. Been teaching me that since we've been here. John: Yeah. Yeah. Were there any surprises when you started, when you moved? Laura: Was that a yes, no question? The answer is yes. John: . Can you share one ? Billy: Yeah, I don't want, I don't mean this to sound critical or anything. But I think that for some reason, I thought that I worked in the secular world and that the secular world was very secular. And then you come and where I was going to work , you know, is kind of the church and the ministry. And so I had sort of this ideal in my mind about how that would look and function, and honestly you get into it and you start to discover like, oh, wait a minute. There's actually like, people are still people even here. And there's brokenness mm-hmm and there's challenges. And there's, you know, places where maturity is needed or places where maturity is really strong. And so one surprises that I found myself in moments, like looking back and thinking like, wow, actually in some ways I found my, my company that I worked for to be, you know, in moments could be more empathetic and in moments could be more concerning about, you know, like work life balance or stuff like that. Billy: And, again, I don't mean that to sound like a criticism, especially Fort wilderness is an amazing organization. And, you know, I think we're super blessed and impressed with it, but there's just a, you know, a reckoning of the ideals that we sometimes falsely build up in our mind about how, how ministry is gonna be this perfect place. Everyone's gonna be working hand in hand in community. But like, in fact it is work and , it's called work for a reason because it is difficult and people aren't perfect and we aren't perfect. And, but yet by God's grace we all, you know, so somehow come together and do something. John: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. For each of you, what have you found to be some of the more rewarding things about what you do? Billy: Do you wanna go, Laura: You can go first. Billy: Well, I think it's really cool being like I'm, so I'm a registered architect and I'm an architect by trade and been doing that for years. And I came from a firm of, you know, there are 110 people in it and like 80 architects, people who think and work like I do. And we, you know, we understand the craft that we come together around to do. So being, being the only architect now has on one hand challenges, because you don't have the depth of resources you had and you know, you're always kind of comparing yourself to your, your past or your peers, in the industry. But on the other hand it's really cool cuz you feel like, man, I really matter here. Like I really like I'm bringing the skillset that's unique and prepared us for it. And I matter in this role and I, I really feel like I belong here. And so I think that's been rewarding as we've seen projects come together and as we kind of solidify with our teams and you know, work together really well and actually see stuff get done, it's, it's kind of a cool feeling. You feel like you really had a big impact on it. John: Mm-hmm great. Laura: Yeah. And I'd, I'd say I think our unique area of ministry of, what Fort does, family camps in general, the people coming are all Christians to the family camp. Like you come to family camp to have a certain experience and you likely wouldn't sign up to attend a Christian family camp if you're not Christian in general. Right. So, so that part of the ministry people come and they are expecting and willing to talk about deep things because you're the missionary staff. And so, you know, I worked years at the Kohler company and had maybe one spiritual top discussion with a colleague because it's like taboo in the workplace to talk about anything. Right. Spiritual. Yeah. Yeah. And so if to get on that level with someone took years of working with them and it's like, we're up here at camp. And like our first summer I'm like, I just had this incredible conversation and this camper was talking to me about that. Laura: Right. And it's just like happening all over. And so that was like super encouraging. And then the youth camps and all winter, the youth groups come up all winter and, and so that you've got just all sorts of people. Like they're not, not all Christians and they're seeking and so yeah, I've just been, just touched the whole, the whole year. And I, I guess maybe it, it, after working corporate world for a long time, I hope that I never lose that this first year joy that every time campers are there, there's an opportunity for an incredible conversation. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and the flip side of that, honestly, though, John is like, there are days when I'm doing my marketing stuff that I just feel like I'm doing marketing stuff. Right. And, and I think as someone who, this is our first time working in ministry and I, I cringe at that term because you work as a Christian, I think you're always working in ministry. You're just not always being paid. Right. Like, yeah. So I guess I think, you know, we're one year in living up here and, and I'm still, I'm still wrestling through, I think a lot of that of am I, am I doing ministry when I'm plugging away at my computer? Mm-Hmm you know, or is it only when I'm talking with campers? Billy: Yeah. Laura: And there's a guilt in that right. Of like, and then you have camp is fun. So it's like, I never wanna leave because I might miss out on some incredible conversation. And then I'm like, but wait, like this isn't about me. Like God is actually doing the work. So I can go home like, , I can go rest. Right. Billy: It's a bit of an identity crisis at times, because it's like on one hand, I'm, I'm a professional who came from the corporate world and I'm, for me, I'm an architect and I do architect and we drive projects and I know what to do as an architect. So I've got that title. But on the other hand, I'm sort of this, I guess, cliche, missionary title too, you know, it's like, and so I feel like, like you're saying, if I'm doing my architecture stuff really well, it takes a lot of, you know, time and dedication. And I feel like, okay, I'm, I'm being a good architect, but now I'm not being a good mission area because I'm not doing ministry with people and you know, and so then it's like, all right, now, what is mission? What is ministry then? Billy: Is it designing the projects and, you know, making them successful or is it serving lunch with a camper or having the spiritual conversation or preaching, or, you know, where, when I'm an architect one minute, and the next minute i'm a missionary and, you know, maybe, you know, why doe it gotta be so complicated? but, but there's a bit of that where you feel like you're doing one well, and you're neglecting the other, or you're doing the other well, and you're neglecting the first and mm. It's kind of a strange gray area. Cause you're, yeah. You know, you're compared to professionals on one hand, but also this definition of a missionary on the other hand. John: Yeah. That was interesting. What have you learned about yourself? You've been there now? What a year and a half, two years, is it Billy: Deep questions. You know, I think, I think one thing that I've learned is I didn't think that where I lived and the house I had mattered to me as much as it apparently did. I Billy: Hmm. You know, and I think that we were talking a little bit earlier about, you know, this idea of being established and all that, and it's, it's more uncomfortable than I probably thought it would be. You know, I kind of had this idea that I could live. We could live anywhere. You know, we're pretty flexible. We're nimble all this stuff, but it's just weird how these silly thoughts come to you. You like the neighborhood we live in now, demographically is, is much poor, very different, mostly all rentals. Like, so you have, you know, it's, it's not hard to see that there's like a lot of brokenness and the families and things around here. And, you know, in Wauwatosa I think we lived across the street where our next neighbor's house was a $600,000 house. And now , I think the house across the street from us is probably worth $60,000, you know? Billy: So it's like Uh, starkly different. And so you have these dumb thoughts of like, man, my kids, like, what are they gonna grow up understanding of it? You know, like how is this gonna affect them and all this stuff. So I think God has used our living situation to expose idols in our hearts and in his grace has pushed us to deal with those things and to really understand what, you know, what is, what is important. And so I think that's a way that I've seen, I know I've been growing in that. I think we've both been growing in that. Mm. Laura: Yeah. I think the biggest thing I've learned about myself is that I had a lot of deep rooted pride in, in money and my own achievements. Like, like I went to college and, you know, I was a straight A student. And so then you, you get the job and your paycheck comes and you're like, yeah, I deserve that money. In fact, I probably should be paid more because mm-hmm. , I've worked for this and I'm a hard worker and right. Like it, you can just, I mean, I never said those words out loud, but I definitely thought them in my head. And then the Lord leads us to this thing that we have to raise support. Right. And every time, so how it works when we get a paycheck, every paycheck there, we get a sheet in it with all these names and the amount that that person gave in that two week pay period. Laura: Mm. And it's really hard to be prideful when you get a sheet like that every week. And you're like, no, like the reason I get to do this work is because all these people believed that this ministry was worth it and believed that Billy and I were being called to it and are willing to give the funds so that, so I can get paid. And every time I open those little envelopes, I'm like, oh, it's not about me. Like it, like, I just it's. I mean, we've been getting them for a year. Like, and I still can just feel like I need that reminder every two weeks to not be prideful. And I'm like, wow, I had a way bigger pride issue than I thought I had. John: Mm-Hmm. Laura: Like, like, okay, like, you know, and so it gets back to this like dual purpose. It's like, has the Lord called us here because we're, we have skill sets and we have something to offer that Fort needs. Yes. But has he equally called us here because he's working in us and, and through us, like, because we're broken sinful people, like yes. Like both those things are true. Billy: Yeah. Laura: And, I think that's a good place to be, to have both those being true. John: Yeah. What advice would you have for someone who is where you were a year and a half, two years ago? What advice would you have for someone who would be considering leaving a secular job to be, to become a missionary? Billy: I would say that if, if God is really calling you to that, then you can't go wrong and he, he's not calling you because you're equipped and you may, and you may be, and maybe you have a skillset to offer, but it's like, Laura was just saying, he's calling you to equip you. He will equip you. And in ways that are far reaching beyond the actual work that he's calling you to do, mm-hmm,, he's deeply concerned with you. He's deeply concerned with the condition of your heart and he loves you. And that's why he's calling you into it. So if he's, yeah, if you, if he's calling you then do it, but it doesn't mean that the rest of the story is, and they lived happily ever after mm-hmm John: Yes. Billy: He calls us to grow us. Laura: Yeah. I'd echo that. And, and I would also say if you feel the Lord's leading, you, you know, you need to get on your hands and knees and, and make sure that he's, he's the one leading that it's not something in your own mind. And, and I think you do that in prayer. I think you do that in, in his word, you do that by reaching out to, to some really trusted friends, which, you know, John, that, we did that when we were in our, our discernment time period. And for us, all three of those areas in our individual prayer in our time spent in the word and the trusted friends we met with all three pointed to, to going. And at that point we said, yes, we didn't, we didn't ask about the money. Or we were like, well, we can't say no. Now, like, if God has said yes, in all three of those areas, like, I mean, that that's, I that's how we discerned our decision. And so I, I put that time in that discernment process, for sure. John: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been great. It's getting going longer than I told you it would go. So I appreciate your appreciate your time. If people wanted to find out more about Fort wilderness, how could they do that? What's the website and all of that. And I'll have it in the show notes too. Laura: Yeah. So it's, it's fortwilderness.com. It's a new website that I had the privilege of working on. So thanks for asking about that, John. John: That's right. I forgot. Yeah. That's a great website. Laura: That's been my big work for the last like eight months. It's not perfect, but, but we did launch the new website and you can find out about the ministry there. You can see the missionaries that are serving there and many are still raising support. Yeah. And you can, you can get in touch with us. We love praying for people and getting to know people so, yeah, that'd be great. John: Mm-Hmm. Good. Well, thanks again. We love you guys and we, we miss you, but we're just really, really excited to see how God is using you for his glory in Northern Wisconsin and all the people that come from all over to learn more about Jesus and you are important parts of that ministry, important parts of facilitating that kind of activity and advancing God's kingdom. So we applaud what you do, that's for sure. So again, thanks for your time. And we will stay in touch. So what does all this mean for YOU? Some of the questions I asked Billy and Laura I found helpful for all of us to ask ourselves How has God led us to what we are doing now? How are relationships impacting our lives? What are the rewarding things about our jobs, or if we're not employed, what's rewarding in the ways we spend our time? What have we learned about ourselves in the last year or two? Here's the main takeaway I hope you remember from today's episode Taking the time to listen to a missionary, to hear their story of how God has led them and is growing them, can inspire us to listen more deeply to God so that we can grow too. I'd love to hear any thoughts you have about today's episode. Closing In closing, I hope your thinking was stimulated by today's show to think about how you can listen to a missionary, or even your friends, to hear their story of how they got to where they are today. For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God intends for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This. Well, that's it for today. In the meantime, create a little joy for the people you meet this week. Spread some relational sunshine. And I'll see you next time. To check out Fort Wilderness, go to fortwilderness.com Related episodes you may want to listen to 139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast? 143: Initiate with People to Enrich Our Life - Part 1 144: Initiate with People to Enrich Our Life - Part 2 Our Sponsor You Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry. We are supported by the generosity of people like you to continue this weekly podcast and other services we provide to missionaries around the world.
Siblings Jade and Michael fear losing their father if they tell him about their step-mother's sexually inappropriate behavior. - Dr. Laura: "You cannot be like your father and not look at things because they're unpleasant."How have you dealt with the pain of parental alienation? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Twenty-two-year-old Jen struggles to move on from her heartbreak and disappointment over a potential engagement. - Dr. Laura: "You need to go through this so that you know you can survive this in the future."What would you like to tell your younger self while going through adolescent heartbreak? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Coliese questions her choice to keep tracking her adult children's locations to calm her worries. - Dr. Laura: "You don't need surveillance for your adult children to know you love them."What do you think separates a protective versus controlling parent? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Despite drifting apart years ago, Kristy questions if she should cease contact with a childhood friend who suffers from a brain injury. - Dr. Laura: "You're still holding onto a memory of safety, but you don't need it anymore."Have you struggled to leave behind a friendship that was already over? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Akashic Records is a great modality to connect to your higher self and your most authentic path. Laura Tati Laira is a beautiful soul that is here to guide you through the process. During a reading with Laura “You'll receive guidance from your guides and guardians connecting you with your true self, your guides, your soul, and your story.” Listen to our podcast for more info - link in bio Visit Laura: https://lauratatilaira.com/ Follow her: https://www.instagram.com/lauratatilaira/ or @lauratatilaira Use the code: BeyondMeditation for 10% off on a reading from Laura - Visit her site. To be the first to know when her course How to Read the Akashic with the Tarot launches sign up here: https://lauratatilaira.com/akashic-records-course-curso-registros-akashicos/ Follow us on Instagram - @beyondmeditationpodcast Follow Jassy - @crystalunavortex Follow Anna - @spiritual.doula
Dr. Laura explores the topic of deep disappointment in this solo episode. She pulls from a recent experience in life that brought up shame and sadness which led her to moments of questioning her own worthiness. Maybe you can relate? She offers this story as a way to share her journey around disappointment and how she approaches her own healing. Dr. Laura gives a few key tools on how to witness the story you are telling yourself about what is causing you shame, reframe it, and see it instead as a gift. She also reminds you that although we each have our own unique experiences, you are not alone in having moments or periods of discomfort, pain, disappointment, and sadness. What You'll Hear In This Episode: Dr. Laura shares a recent occasion when her life didn't turn out the way she imagined. She explains the depth of her disappointment around it. Making sure she created space to feel what she was feeling so that she could truly heal through what was happening and not bypass the experience. We all encounter feelings of shame, no matter how much we've grown or ascended in our personal journey. The gift of self-compassion is one of the most incredible experiences that you can give yourself. If you're going to accept the downside of a situation, you need to also accept the gift — even if that place takes some time to get to. To move through disappointment, you need to know the story and the meaning you are giving it. Dr. Laura talks about how to reframe the data points around what you perceive to be a setback or disappointing event. Quotes: “There is the only way through a process like this and through an experience like this, and it's to feel your way forward.” — Dr. Laura “We don't see life as it is, we see life as we are.” — Dr. Laura “You need to accept the gift of it, too. There is an opportunity in there for you to look and reframe the meaning you are giving it.” — Dr. Laura “In the reframing and acknowledgment and understanding, I now have this situation that went for quite a long time in my life that has become my gift. It's the deep sensitivity I developed.” — Dr. Laura “If you're going to accept the shit of a situation, you need to also accept the gift. This became the way that I reframed the data points.” — Dr. Laura “I started to pull on the threads of that reality and reframed a more complete holistic story for myself to create a new reality.” — Dr. Laura Take Dr. Laura's Free Quiz! — What's your Divine Feminine Sovereign Style? This quiz will help to reveal your soul-guided sovereign style so that you can harness your feminine spark with more confidence and courage than ever before. The quiz is quick but the results are epic — potent, robust, and exactly what you'll need to harness your unique feminine style in a way you've never done before. Get ready to speak your truth, walk in your fire, and own your gifts like never before. 10-Week Signature Program for Women: ROOTS + The Sisterhood ROOTS will help you tap into your feminine superpowers and remember who you are, why you are here, and why it matters. This dynamic program walks through intuition, connecting with your inner knowing, healthy boundary-setting, personal core values, finding your voice, speaking your truth, expansion, self-compassion, identity, your future self, and the frequency of your rise. You were never meant to do this alone. Are you ready to do the best work of your life? Sovereignty, Self-Compassion, and Standing In Your Personal Power. It's time to walk your path. Get on the WAITLIST here. Continue On Your Journey: Soul Inspired Gurl / Instagram / Book A Coaching Discovery Call With Me
Wendy offered to take care of her boss at the end of her life, but after devoting her time and effort for several months, Wendy feels like a fool and wants her life back. - Dr. Laura: "You can't avoid your own problems by immersing yourself in someone else's."Is there something you're trying to avoid dealing with? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
At 51, Trisha says she still suffers from the pain of living with an abusive father who belittled her and told her she would never amount to anything. - Dr. Laura: “You will know you're successful when you can go an entire day not thinking of him.”Did you have critical or supportive parents? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Chanti Zak is the creator of the Empathy Marketing Ecosystem, co-host of The Entrepreneur's Ecosystem Podcast and a quiz funnel strategist and coach that is obsessed with getting brag-worthy results for her students and clients. Chanti joins the podcast to talk with Laura about authenticity, the framework for how she shows up in her business, and the similarities between a diverse agricultural ecosystem and business. She talks about the shift in her professional and personal life once she learned to pause and provides great resources for upping your marketing and customer outreach. Chanti and Laura share the ‘realness' about running a business during a time of societal upheaval, and how saying “no” can open us up to more of our “yes.” What You'll Hear In This Episode: Finding your audience and making sure they feel seen and heard is so critical to success in business and marketing. When you out yourself and really get specific on what you provide and who you provide it for, that's when things start to shift. Chanti talks about her work as a Growth Coach and Quiz Funnel Strategist, and how that helps her clients grow and share their voices. Chanti and Dr. Laura talk about a way of approaching the creative process that also lets in more of the feminine divine, where we don't have to rely solely on masculine energy. Chanti talks about co-creating her dream life with her husband and living off her homestead with her family. Nature and permaculture have many similarities to branding and business. You can't outsource self-growth and face what you need to do to get a more aligned and abundant version of yourself. Chanti shares the top things she sees stopping entrepreneurs from their own success. As you move forward and grow, your brain will want to get caught in the past. It's important to say no to some things, so you can say yes to others. Quotes: “Instead of talking about what the title is of what I do, I would talk about what it is that I provide for people.” — Dr. Laura “Part of the creative process of birthing something new is that you don't get Spring without Winter.” — Chanti “Build your own connection with your self-awareness so that you know what success truly is, and what you are striving for when you are striving.” — Dr. Laura “What can I say no to, so that I can say yes to something else?” — Chanti “You can't abdicate the responsibility of yourself to anyone.” — Dr. Laura “You can't outsource your problems, your struggles, and your personal stuff that you just have to face and sit with and work through.” — Chanti “Everything that you create and show up for the world is an extension of you. So start with that in mind: The relationship you have with yourself forms the basis for the relationship of everything you do in the world.” — Dr. Laura Take Dr. Laura's Free Quiz! — What's your Divine Feminine Sovereign Style? This quiz will help to reveal your soul-guided sovereign style so that you can harness your feminine spark with more confidence and courage than ever before. The quiz is quick but the results are epic — potent, robust, and exactly what you'll need to harness your unique feminine style in a way you've never done before. Get ready to speak your truth, walk in your fire, and own your gifts like never before. 10-Week Signature Program for Women: ROOTS + The Sisterhood ROOTS will help you tap into your feminine superpowers and remember who you are, why you are here, and why it matters. This dynamic program walks through intuition, connecting with your inner knowing, healthy boundary-setting, personal core values, finding your voice, speaking your truth, expansion, self-compassion, identity, your future self, and the frequency of your rise. You were never meant to do this alone. Are you ready to do the best work of your life? Sovereignty, Self-Compassion, and Standing In Your Personal Power. It's time to walk your path. Join the WAITLIST here. Continue On Your Journey: Soul Inspired Gurl / BOOK DISCOVERY CALL TO TALK ABOUT 1:1 COACHING / INSTAGRAM Chanti: Website | The Entrepreneur's Ecosystem Podcast | Instagram | Facebook Chantizak.com/quiz Chantizak.com/unfairadvantage Bio for Chanti: Chanti is the creator of The Empathy Marketing Ecosystem; she's a quiz funnel strategist, growth consultant, and coach that's obsessed with psychology, interactive marketing, and getting brag-worthy results for her students and clients. She believes boring is the enemy, neutral is a death sentence and real talk is the way of the future. In her spare time you can find her hanging with her three kiddos, learning how to homestead, or binge-watching Chef's Table. Learn more about Chanti on her website Chantizak.com.
Brittany says she has always disliked the way she looks and wishes she could feel better about herself. - Dr. Laura: "You'll always be better than some and not as good as others."How do you handle the things you don't like about yourself? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Michael suffers from retrograde jealousy and is demanding a picture of the man his wife used to date before they were married nearly 50 years ago. - Dr. Laura: "You're allowed to have feelings of jealousy, but not to act on them."Has jealousy hurt your relationship? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Kristin was sexually abused by her father when she was 8 years old, and she says that she's taken back to that night each time her husband wants to touch her. - Dr. Laura: "You were powerless as a child, but as a woman, you get to orchestrate your sensuality."Is something from your childhood impacting the way you live today? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Carol has finally blown up after years of ignoring her in-laws' negative behavior, and now everything is awkward. - Dr. Laura: "You're not under any obligation to let negative comments roll off your back."Are you the type to speak up when you're upset or do you just let things slide? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Linda is annoyed by her brothers who won't help with their elderly parents. Should she continue to keep the peace by swallowing her anger? - Dr. Laura: "You don't have to participate in unhealthy family dynamics."Do you agree with how your parents raised you? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Darrell says that he tends to take jobs that he's not necessarily qualified for and, ultimately, gets fired when it's discovered that he's in over his head. - Dr. Laura: "You can make something beautiful with the talents you have."What are your strengths? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Spread Christmas Cheer. Listen and Share Christmas music from Celtic musicians featured on the Irish & Celtic Music Podcast. Subscribe at CelticChristmasPodcast.com. Celtic Christmas music from Stephanie Claussen, The Gothard Sisters, Laura MacKenzie, Eira, Celtic Woman, Screaming Orphans, Steel Clover, Sarah Marie Mullen, Heather Alexander, Natalie MacMaster, Donnell Leahy, Aizle, Rioghnach Connolly, Peat in the Creel, A Shamrock in Kudzu, Susan Toman, Jil Chambless, Ed Miller, Scooter Muse, Matt & Shannon Heaton, Heather Dale, Carolina Ceili, Catriona O'Leary, Jennifer Licko, Cherish the Ladies, Liz Carroll, Golden Bough, Four Celtic Voices, Jessica Victoria, Banshee in the Kitchen, Liz Madden, Katie McMahon, Bonnie Rideout, Nancy Daily-Green, Sheri O'Meara, Eileen Ivers, The Poor Clares, Sharon Shannon WELCOME TO THE CELTIC CHRISTMAS PODCAST I am Marc Gunn. I am a Celtic musician and I love Christmas music. In each episode, I introduce you to Celtic musicians from the Irish & Celtic Music Podcast who are creating great Christmas music. This year I have an all new format. Instead of sharing the music in podcast form, I've created a playlist over on Spotify called Celtic Christmas Women. I hope to add YouTube and Amazon Music. But right now, it's just on Spotify. If you prefer the podcast format and want more Celtic Christmas MUSIC episodes of the podcast, make sure you join our Celtic Christmas Fans on Patreon. You'll get a music-only episode and will join the other 51 patrons who are helping spread Christmas Cheer! That said, this is actually the final MUSIC episode of the Celtic Christmas podcast. This episode was originally created for the Irish & Celtic Music Podcast in 2020. This is a replay of that show. You can find a complete list of the artists in this show at CelticChristmasPodcast.com. CELTIC CHRISTMAS PLAYLISTS & NEWS There, also, you will find a link to our 2021 Celtic Christmas Women Spotify playlist that features MOST of the artists in this show. Go follow the Celtic Christmas Women playlist now. More playlists to follow: Joyful Celtic Christmas Music Christmas Drinking Songs Top Irish & Celtic Music CELTIC CHRISTMAS NEWS 1:30 - "'Twas in the Moon of Wintertime / Ding Dong Merrily On High" by Stephanie Claussen from Light so Brilliant: Carols and Tunes for Christmas 5:24 - WELCOME TO CELTIC MUSIC * Helping you celebrate Celtic culture through music. My name is Marc Gunn. I am a musician and podcaster. This show is dedicated to the indie Celtic musicians. Please support these artists. Share the show with your friends. And find more episodes at celticmusicpodcast.com. You can also support this podcast on Patreon. At the end of November, we hit a HUGE milestone for the podcast. We now have over 300 kind souls who donate to the podcast each and every month. They collectively pledge over $800 per episode to make this show happen. I was already planning a Celtic Christmas Women episode. But because of that milestone, I decided to turn it into a 2-hour special. Plus, I'm adding another 2-hour special next month. So in this show I'm gonna share Christmas music by women playing Celtic music. That's because women don't get the attention they deserve in the music business in general and in Celtic music either. So I'm gonna highlight these ladies. If you want to find out more about the gender gap in traditional music, check out the non-profit FairPle. They advocate for equal opportunity and balanced representation for all. 7:03 - "Good King Wenceslas" by The Gothard Sisters from Falling Snow 11:00 - "What Child Is This" by Laura MacKenzie from Yuletide Bagpipes 13:35 - "Christmas Is Coming/Red Hair Boy/King's Reel" by Eira from Glen Tidings Liesel Wilson: Vocals, Fiddle, Erhu, Octave Fiddle Sue Spencer: Guitar, Vocals 17:51 - "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" by Celtic Woman from The Magic of Christmas 21:55 - "The Song We Used to Sing" by Screaming Orphans from Single 25:16 - "Christ Child's Lullaby" by Steel Clover from Season of Love Sue Borowski 28:31 - "Patapan" by Sarah Marie Mullen from In the Moon of Wintertime 30:38 - CELTIC CHRISTMAS PODCAST If you're looking for more Celtic Christmas music, then you should definitely subscribe to the Celtic Christmas Podcast. There are five episodes that we released in 2020. It's a delightful way to celebrate Celtic culture through Christmas music. And of course, it too is supported by folks like you on Patreon. Subscribe to the podcast at CelticChristmasMusic.net. 31:49 - "Unto Us a Child Is Born" by Heather Alexander from Wintertide 36:02 - "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" by Natalie MacMaster, Donnell Leahy from A Celtic Family Christmas 39:46 - "The Wexford Carol" by Aizle & Rioghnach Connolly from The Wexford Carol 44:19 - "Cutty Wren, Drive the Cold Winter Away" by Peat in the Creel from Winter Alison Myers: Flute 50:34 - "The Coventry Carol" by A Shamrock in Kudzu from Kudzu for Christmas ½ the 6 piece band of ladies 53:02 - "The Sussex Carol" by Susan Toman from Angels on High 56:12 - THANK YOU PATRONS OF THE PODCAST! Because of Your kind and generous support, this show comes out every week. Your generosity funds the creation, promotion and production of the show. It allows us to attract new listeners and to help our community grow. As a patron, you get to hear episodes before regular listeners. When we hit a milestone, you get an extra-long episode. You can pledge a dollar or more per episode and cap how much you want to spend each month over on Patreon. A super special thanks to our newest patrons: Ben, Pamala D, Vaidah Katz, Phyu K, melsing, Esther W, Hobie W, Dan C, Laura You can become a generous Patron of the Podcast on Patreon at SongHenge.com. 58:03 - "Emanuel" by Jil Chambless, Ed Miller and Scooter Muse from Nollaig Chridheil / Songs of the Christmas Season 1:02:35 - "Dust of Snow" by Matt & Shannon Heaton from Fine Winter's Night 1:06:50 - "Huron Carol" by Heather Dale from This Endris Night 1:10:25 - "Christmas Contra Dance" by Carolina Ceili from Holiday Hooley Laurie Fisher: Fiddler Maggie Anderson: Drums 1:12:38 - "A Virgin Queen in Bethlehem" by Catriona O'Leary from The Wexford Carols 1:17:49 - "Brightest and Best" by Jennifer Licko from The Lights of Christmas 1:21:06 - CELTIC CHRISTMAS PLAYLIST ON SPOTIFY If you enjoy this podcast, you might also enjoy our Joyful Celtic Christmas Music playlist on Spotify. Follow the link in the show notes. Or if you want a fun mix of popular and classic Christmas songs with some Celtic Christmas favorites by me and other Celtic musicians, I have another great playlist that my family listens to each and every year: Fun Christmas Songs for Kids & Families. 1:22:07 - "Oh Come, All Ye Faithful" by Cherish the Ladies from Christmas in Ireland Joanie Madden, Mary Coogan, Mirella Murray, Kathleen Boyle, Nollaig Casey 1:25:30 - "The Jump Ball | Whipple Hill | How We Spent the Christmas" by Liz Carroll from Lake Effect 1:28:58 - "Green Grow the Holly/The Holly and the Ivy Girl" by Golden Bough from Christmas in a Celtic Land Margie Butler: Harp, Vocals Kathy Sierra: Fiddle, Vocals 1:32:18 - "Angels (featuring Celeste Ray)" by Four Celtic Voices from Four Celtic Seasons 1:36:23 - "Christmas in Camelot" by Jessica Victoria from Songs of the Summer Realm 1:38:25 - "Bottom of the Punchbowl Set" by Banshee in the Kitchen from Invite the Light Kat, Jill, Brenda, Kris 1:42:14 - TRAVEL WITH CELTIC INVASION VACATIONS Every year, I take a small group of Celtic music fans on the relaxing adventure of a lifetime. We don't see everything. Instead, we stay in one area. We get to know the region through its culture, history, and legends. You can join us with an auditory and visual adventure through podcasts and videos. Learn more about the invasion at http://celticinvasion.com/ Oh! And if you want more Christmas podcasts from me, I also host the Pub Songs & Stories. I released my “Christmas Elf” a few days ago. It's a bit more personal podcast. But I have a few Celtic Christmas songs included in the show. Go to PubSong.net. 1:43:56 - "Happy Christmas Christmas Tree" by Liz Madden from Christmas with Liz Madden 1:46:33 - "Christmas Pipes" by Katie McMahon from Celtic Christmas 1:50:13 - "So merry as we have been" by Bonnie Rideout from The Celebration 1:53:50 - "Angels From the Realms of Glory" by Nancy Daily-Green from Celebrating Christmas Yore 1:57:00 - "Bed for the Baby" by Sheri O'Meara from Christmas Light 1:00:24 - "Jigs: Apples in Winter/Frost is All Over/A Merry Christmas" by Eileen Ivers from An Nollaig: An Irish Christmas 2:04:35 - "The Holly Bears a Berry" by The Poor Clares from The Poor Clares: Songs for Midwinter Betsy McGovern: vocals Beth Patterson: vocals, bouzouki 2:07:27 - CLOSING I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, please share the show with ONE friend. The Irish & Celtic Music Podcast is here to build our diverse Celtic community and help the incredible artists who so generously share their music with you. If you hear music you love, buy the albums, shirts, and songbooks, follow the artists on streaming, see their shows, and drop them an email to let them know you heard them on the Irish and Celtic Music Podcast. Every week, you can get Celtic music news in your inbox. The Celtic Music Magazine is a quick and easy way to plug yourself into more great Celtic culture. Subscribe and get 34 Celtic MP3s for Free. VOTE IN THE CELTIC TOP 20 In two weeks, I am pleased to release the Celtic Top 20 for 2020. Every year, I ask you to vote for your favorite songs in each show. It's very easy to do. The polls are closed for the year. And I'm taking off next week for Christmas Eve. On New Years' Eve, I will release the best songs and artists of 2020. I hope you will help me spread the word. 2:09:50 - "Christmas Time Again!" by Sharon Shannon from Christmas Time Again! The Irish & Celtic Music Podcast was edited by Mitchell Petersen with Graphics by Miranda Nelson Designs. The show was produced by Marc Gunn, The Celtfather. To subscribe, go to Apple Podcasts or to our website where you can become a Patron of the Podcast for as little as $1 per episode. Promote Celtic culture through music at http://celticmusicpodcast.com/. NEXT TIME The 2021 season launches on Sunday, November 28. I'll tell you more about Matt & Shannon Heaton. In the meantime, please become a producer of this show over on Patreon. If you hear music you love in the Celtic Christmas Podcast, then support the artists. Buy something from them. Sign up to their mailing lists. And share the episode with your friends on social or in your community. The Celtic Christmas Podcast was edited by Mitchell Petersen with Graphics by Miranda Nelson Designs. The show was produced by Marc Gunn, The Celtfather. To subscribe, go to Apple Podcasts or to our website where you can become a Patron of the Podcast for as little as $1 per episode. Promote Celtic culture through Christmas music at CelticChristmasPodcast.com. Nollaig Shona Daoibh! #celticchristmas #celticchristmasmusic #celticwomen
Laura Davis, celebrated author and advocate, joins And Then Everything Changed for episode 100! When Laura's groundbreaking first book, The Courage to Heal was released decades ago it was the first of its kind to document hundreds of women's stories of sexual abuse. In it, Laura shared her own story of being sexually abused by her grandfather, showed women it was possible to heal from this trauma, and called out the patriarchy. As she helped hundreds of thousands of women and her star rose, a rupture began in her own family. Her mother refused to believe Laura about the abuse she'd suffered, and when Laura came out as lesbian her family rejected her. Laura relocated across the country and found a supportive community, a loving relationship, became a mother, and wrote and published many more books. Then, toward the end of her mother's life, she told Laura she was moving to live near her and Laura faced the prospect of caring for and being in relationship again with her mother who had hurt her so many years before. In this episode Laura shares what it was like to write her new memoir, The Burning Light of Two Stars: A Mother-Daughter Story about how she reconciled with the mother who betrayed her and came to care for her in her final days. Also in this episode: Laura's tips for writing about traumatic experiences, where the boundaries are when writing about family experiences, and what all memoir writing needs. Connect with Laura: You can buy The Burning Light of Two Stars wherever books and audiobooks are sold. You can also read the opening chapters of The Burning Light of Two Stars at: www.lauradavis.net/chapters If you're an aspiring writer or want to use writing as a tool for healing or self-discovery, you can learn about Laura's online writing workshops and in-person domestic and international retreats here: www.lauradavis.net Direct links to buy The Burning Light of Two Stars: Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/books/the-burning-light-of-two-stars-a-mother-daughter-story-9781954854161/9781954854161 Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Burning-Light-Two-Stars-Mother-Daughter/dp/1954854218/ Barnes and Noble: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-burning-light-of-two-stars-laura-davis/1139198069 Indiebound: https://www.indiebound.org/book/9781954854161 Get Your Signed Copies Through Bookshop Santa Cruz: https://www.bookshopsantacruz.com/burning-light-two-stars-get-it-signed) Want a Discount When You Buy in Bulk for Your Book Club or Organization? For bulk sales: https://www.porchlightbooks.com/product/burning-light-of-two-stars-a-mother-daughter-story--laura-davis?variationCode=9781954854161#full-description Other info can be found in her press kit: https://bit.ly/3illC9Y Connect With Ronit: About Ronit‘s book When She Comes Back: https://ronitplank.com/book/ For more about this episode click here! https://andtheneverythingchangedpodcast.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ronitplank/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RonitPlankCreative/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAlSZFpcksgdHopmBLUXfLA
Lucas thought he and his Godmother would be closer when he moved nearby, but their relationship is strained primarily by his disregard for her beliefs and values. - Dr. Laura: "You don't have to like the rules of a person's home, but you do need to respect them."Does someone you love have wildly different values from your own? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Adriana is 5 months pregnant, but her husband says he's unhappy and not sure their relationship is going can last. - Dr. Laura: "You can't force your fantasies on another person."Have you chosen wisely? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Eliza is toying with the idea of quitting her full-time job to become a stay-at-home mom, but she fears letting down her company. - Dr. Laura: "You can be replaced at work, but you'll never be replaced in the heart of your child."Who do you want to raise your kids? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Elizabeth's father hasn't been supportive, involved or loving, and she feels pretty bad about herself as a result. - Dr. Laura: "You cannot count on selfish people to behave in lovable ways."Has selfishness conquered love in your life? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Gibran is estranged from his family over his alcoholic uncle who just died, and he's wondering the best way to express his condolence given the strained situation. - Dr. Laura: "You can show compassion without compromising your character."Have you ever skipped a funeral for someone you didn't care for? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Carol calls Dr. Laura to let her know how her advice to another caller helped Carol walk away from a negative relationship. - Dr. Laura: "You don't have to keep hurtful people in your life."What kind of call have you heard on The Dr. Laura Program that prompted you to take action in your life? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
After only three months of marriage, Michelle has discovered that her husband has a cocaine addiction. - Dr. Laura: "You will gain self-respect when you correct your mistake."Have you been brave enough to admit having made a poor decision? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.comTo participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Become a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Andrew called Dr. Laura last year, sad that his friends were getting married while he had no prospects. But, with this update, he reveals the amazing journey that original call took him on. - Dr. Laura: "You do not have to view yourself through the lens of others."Do you allow other people's opinions to influence your decisions? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.comTo participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Become a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Trina is sad about her bad childhood and her impending divorce, and she blames herself for the way her life has turned out. - Dr. Laura: "You can't change the past, but you can work on your future." What challenges have you bounced back from? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.comTo participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Become a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
15-year-old Beth needs help telling her father how she really feels about her parents' divorce and her dad shacking up with his girlfriend. - Dr. Laura: "You'll be disappointed throughout life if you can't learn to be proactive and assertive."Is there something your ex is doing that upsets your children? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.comTo participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Become a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Welcome to Episode Nine with Laura Leigh Chapman Laura is a brand messaging mentor and communications consultant for creative folk with big hearts and big dreams. She helps them to get clear, connect with their people and confidently bring their full self to their business. She has been working as a communications pro, with businesses large and small for over 15 years, supporting them with communications strategy, planning, messaging and lots and lots of writing. She is all about supporting more fabulous people - like you - to tell your business stories, own your awesomeness and feel comfortable and confident sharing who you are, what you do and why you do it. We talk about: How important boundaries are when sharing your story How to write a brilliant about page How to tell a compelling story for your business How to show up online in a way that feels good to you See more from Laura: You can mostly find Laura handing out on Instagram Her Honest Words newsletter, is where she goes a bit more in depth with thoughts and feelings around your brand messaging and being your full self. Her free Facebook group - Clear and Confident Creatives - is a lovely community of like-minded creative folk, and a place where she share's more detail and regularly goes live and posts videos on all things messaging and communications. To find more from Liz visit lizmosley.net and follow her on instagram at @lizmmosley
On this week's episode: Maverick, Toni, Dylan, and Ariet discuss the storylines that aired during the week of 02/08/21! There were many.... MANY tragedies that occurred this week and our co-hosts didn't hold their criticisms back! Drinking Game Words: Ron and/or Laura (You're gonna need a few drinks after this week!) You can find each of us on Twitter: @_theemaverick, @xotonironixo, @ariet_alp, and @Dylan_StJaymes! And be sure to follow the podcast's official Twitter account: @SoapdishSalem
Nollaig shona daoibh! 2-Hours of Celtic Christmas music by female Celtic musicians. It’s the Irish & Celtic Music Podcast. Stephanie Claussen, The Gothard Sisters, Laura MacKenzie, Eira, Celtic Woman, Screaming Orphans, Steel Clover, Sarah Marie Mullen, Jessica Victoria, Heather Alexander, Natalie MacMaster & Donnell Leahy, Aizle & Rioghnach Connolly, Peat in the Creel, A Shamrock in Kudzu, Susan Toman, Jil Chambless, Ed Miller and Scooter Muse, Matt & Shannon Heaton, Heather Dale, Carolina Ceili, Catriona O'Leary, Jennifer Licko, Cherish the Ladies, Liz Carroll, Golden Bough, Four Celtic Voices, Banshee in the Kitchen, Liz Madden, Katie McMahon, Bonnie Rideout, Nancy Daily-Green, Sheri O'Meara, Eileen Ivers, The Poor Clares, Sharon Shannon I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, please share the show with ONE friend. The Irish & Celtic Music Podcast is here to build our diverse Celtic community and help the incredible artists who so generously share their music with you. If you hear music you love, buy the albums, shirts, and songbooks, follow the artists on streaming, see their shows, and drop them an email to let them know you heard them on the Irish and Celtic Music Podcast. Every week, you can get Celtic music news in your inbox. The Celtic Music Magazine is a quick and easy way to plug yourself into more great Celtic culture. Subscribe and get 34 Celtic MP3s for Free. THIS WEEK IN CELTIC MUSIC 0:01 - "'Twas in the Moon of Wintertime / Ding Dong Merrily On High" by Stephanie Claussen from Light so Brilliant: Carols and Tunes for Christmas 4:01 - WELCOME TO CELTIC MUSIC * Helping you celebrate Celtic culture through music. My name is Marc Gunn. I am a musician and podcaster. This show is dedicated to the indie Celtic musicians. Please support these artists. Share the show with your friends. And find more episodes at celticmusicpodcast.com. You can also support this podcast on Patreon. At the end of November, we hit a HUGE milestone for the podcast. We now have over 300 kind souls who donate to the podcast each and every month. They collectively pledge over $800 per episode to make this show happen. I was already planning a Celtic Christmas Women episode. But because of that milestone, I decided to turn it into a 2-hour special. Plus, I’m adding another 2-hour special next month. So in this show I’m gonna share Christmas music by women playing Celtic music. That’s because women don’t get the attention they deserve in the music business in general and in Celtic music either. So I’m gonna highlight these ladies. If you want to find out more about the gender gap in traditional music, check out the non-profit FairPle. They advocate for equal opportunity and balanced representation for all. 5:41 - "Good King Wenceslas" by The Gothard Sisters from Falling Snow 9:37 - "What Child Is This" by Laura MacKenzie from Yuletide Bagpipes 12:13 - "Christmas Is Coming/Red Hair Boy/King's Reel" by Eira from Glen Tidings Liesel Wilson: Vocals, Fiddle, Erhu, Octave Fiddle Sue Spencer: Guitar, Vocals 16:29 - "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" by Celtic Woman from The Magic of Christmas 20:33 - "The Song We Used to Sing" by Screaming Orphans from Single 23:54 - "Christ Child's Lullaby" by Steel Clover from Season of Love Sue Borowski 27:08 - "Patapan" by Sarah Marie Mullen from In the Moon of Wintertime 29:16 - CELTIC CHRISTMAS PODCAST If you’re looking for more Celtic Christmas music, then you should definitely subscribe to the Celtic Christmas Podcast. There are five episodes that we released in 2020. It’s a delightful way to celebrate Celtic culture through Christmas music. And of course, it too is supported by folks like you on Patreon. Subscribe to the podcast at CelticChristmasMusic.net. 30:26 - "Unto Us a Child Is Born" by Heather Alexander from Wintertide 34:40 - "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" by Natalie MacMaster, Donnell Leahy from A Celtic Family Christmas 38:23 - "The Wexford Carol" by Aizle & Rioghnach Connolly from The Wexford Carol 42:56 - "Cutty Wren, Drive the Cold Winter Away" by Peat in the Creel from Winter Alison Myers: Flute 49:12 - "The Coventry Carol" by A Shamrock in Kudzu from Kudzu for Christmas ½ the 6 piece band of ladies 51:40 - "The Sussex Carol" by Susan Toman from Angels on High 54:49 - THANK YOU PATRONS OF THE PODCAST! Because of Your kind and generous support, this show comes out every week. Your generosity funds the creation, promotion and production of the show. It allows us to attract new listeners and to help our community grow. As a patron, you get to hear episodes before regular listeners. When we hit a milestone, you get an extra-long episode. You can pledge a dollar or more per episode and cap how much you want to spend each month over on Patreon. A super special thanks to our newest patrons: Ben, Pamala D, Vaidah Katz, Phyu K, melsing, Esther W, Hobie W, Dan C, Laura You can become a generous Patron of the Podcast on Patreon at SongHenge.com. 56:41 - "Emanuel" by Jil Chambless, Ed Miller and Scooter Muse from Nollaig Chridheil / Songs of the Christmas Season 1:01:13 - "Dust of Snow" by Matt & Shannon Heaton from Fine Winter's Night 1:05:28 - "Huron Carol" by Heather Dale from This Endris Night 1:09:03 - "Christmas Contra Dance" by Carolina Ceili from Holiday Hooley Laurie Fisher: Fiddler Maggie Anderson: Drums 1:11:16 - "A Virgin Queen in Bethlehem" by Catriona O'Leary from The Wexford Carols 1:16:27 - "Brightest and Best" by Jennifer Licko from The Lights of Christmas 1:19:45 - CELTIC CHRISTMAS PLAYLIST ON SPOTIFY If you enjoy this podcast, you might also enjoy our Joyful Celtic Christmas Music playlist on Spotify. Follow the link in the show notes. Or if you want a fun mix of popular and classic Christmas songs with some Celtic Christmas favorites by me and other Celtic musicians, I have another great playlist that my family listens to each and every year: Fun Christmas Songs for Kids & Families. 1:20:45 - "Oh Come, All Ye Faithful" by Cherish the Ladies from Christmas in Ireland Joanie Madden, Mary Coogan, Mirella Murray, Kathleen Boyle, Nollaig Casey 1:24:07 - "The Jump Ball | Whipple Hill | How We Spent the Christmas" by Liz Carroll from Lake Effect 1:27:36 - "Green Grow the Holly/The Holly and the Ivy Girl" by Golden Bough from Christmas in a Celtic Land Margie Butler: Harp, Vocals Kathy Sierra: Fiddle, Vocals 1:30:56 - "Angels (featuring Celeste Ray)" by Four Celtic Voices from Four Celtic Seasons 1:35:01 - "Christmas in Camelot" by Jessica Victoria from Songs of the Summer Realm 1:37:03 - "Bottom of the Punchbowl Set" by Banshee in the Kitchen from Invite the Light Kat, Jill, Brenda, Kris 1:40:52 - TRAVEL WITH CELTIC INVASION VACATIONS Every year, I take a small group of Celtic music fans on the relaxing adventure of a lifetime. We don't see everything. Instead, we stay in one area. We get to know the region through its culture, history, and legends. You can join us with an auditory and visual adventure through podcasts and videos. Learn more about the invasion at http://celticinvasion.com/ Oh! And if you want more Christmas podcasts from me, I also host the Pub Songs & Stories. I released my “Christmas Elf” a few days ago. It’s a bit more personal podcast. But I have a few Celtic Christmas songs included in the show. Go to PubSong.net. 1:42:33 - "Happy Christmas Christmas Tree" by Liz Madden from Christmas with Liz Madden 1:45:11 - "Christmas Pipes" by Katie McMahon from Celtic Christmas 1:48:51 - "So merry as we have been" by Bonnie Rideout from The Celebration 1:53:28 - "Angels From the Realms of Glory" by Nancy Daily-Green from Celebrating Christmas Yore 1:55:38 - "Bed for the Baby" by Sheri O'Meara from Christmas Light 1:59:02 - "Jigs: Apples in Winter/Frost is All Over/A Merry Christmas" by Eileen Ivers from An Nollaig: An Irish Christmas 2:03:13 - "The Holly Bears a Berry" by The Poor Clares from The Poor Clares: Songs for Midwinter Betsy McGovern: vocals Beth Patterson: vocals, bouzouki 2:06:05 - CLOSING I hope you enjoyed this week's show. If you did, please share the show with ONE friend. The Irish & Celtic Music Podcast is here to build our diverse Celtic community and help the incredible artists who so generously share their music with you. If you hear music you love, buy the albums, shirts, and songbooks, follow the artists on streaming, see their shows, and drop them an email to let them know you heard them on the Irish and Celtic Music Podcast. Every week, you can get Celtic music news in your inbox. The Celtic Music Magazine is a quick and easy way to plug yourself into more great Celtic culture. Subscribe and get 34 Celtic MP3s for Free. VOTE IN THE CELTIC TOP 20 In two weeks, I am pleased to release the Celtic Top 20 for 2020. Every year, I ask you to vote for your favorite songs in each show. It’s very easy to do. The polls are closed for the year. And I’m taking off next week for Christmas Eve. On New Years’ Eve, I will release the best songs and artists of 2020. I hope you will help me spread the word. 2:08:28 - "Christmas Time Again!" by Sharon Shannon from Christmas Time Again! The Irish & Celtic Music Podcast was edited by Mitchell Petersen with Graphics by Miranda Nelson Designs. The show was produced by Marc Gunn, The Celtfather. To subscribe, go to Apple Podcasts or to our website where you can become a Patron of the Podcast for as little as $1 per episode. Promote Celtic culture through music at http://celticmusicpodcast.com/. #celticmusic #irishmusic #celticpodcast I WANT YOUR FEEDBACK What are you doing today while listening to the podcast? You can send a written comment along with a picture of what you're doing while listening. Email a voicemail message to celticpodcast@gmail.com
After a short hiatus, we're back with a look at the classic story of music and heartbreak, High Fidelity! In this episode we discuss: Nick Hornby's original 1995 novel. The 2000 movie, directed by Stephen Frears, written by D.V. DeVincentis, Steve Pink, John Cusack, and Scott Rosenberg, and starring Cusack, Iben Hjejle, Jack Black, Lisa Bonet, and Joan Cusack. The 2006 musical, with music by Tom Kitt, lyrics by Amanda Green, and book by David Lindsay-Abaire. The 2020 TV show, developed by Veronica West and Sarah Kucserka, and starring Zoë Kravitz, Jake Lacy, Da'Vine Joy Randolph, David H. Holmes, and Kingsley Ben-Adir. Footnotes: "Shame" by Randy Newman Jack Black Goes "All of the F**king Way" on High Fidelity The original High Fidelity theatrical trailer "Weird Al" Yankovic's "My Baby's In Love With Eddie Vedder" vs. "I Slept With Someone (Who Slept With Lyle Lovett)" from the High Fidelity musical Jenn Colella did in fact play Laura You can follow Adapt or Perish on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, and you can find us and all of our show notes online at adaptorperishcast.com. We're also on Patreon! You can find us at patreon.com/adaptcast. We have multiple reward levels, which include access to a patron-only community and a patron-only, biweekly bonus show! We hope to see you there. If you want to send us a question or comment, you can always email us at adaptorperishcast@gmail.com.
My guest this week is the incredible Laura Slinn, Co-Founder of Avalon Empowerment and board certified trainer of Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP). Her firsthand experience in the power of working with the unconscious mind served as a catalyst for her spiritual awakening — and one of the many reasons she walked away from a successful career and devoted herself to helping other people achieve extraordinary results. "At the end of the day, there's really no better feeling than watching somebody be able to create change. Watching a client be able to move past something, like yes, that 'something' will always be there — but they can manage it in an entirely different way." Today we're going to talk about her background, and the role it played in starting her business, her views on leadership, and her work in the world. In other words... we're going to geek out about the coaching industry, the intersection of marketing and language, and so much more. Want more from Laura? You can check her out and learn more at https://www.avalonempowerment.com/ Note: this episode has a trigger warning for brief discussion of sexual assault and infertility. If you are struggling with issues in either of these areas, you're not alone. You can find an infertility support group via Resolve: https://resolve.org/support/find-a-support-group/ RAINN has an abundance of resources for survivors of sexual violence, including a free 24/7 hotline, a mobile app, and so much more: https://www.rainn.org/
Do you want more freedom and flexibility? Have you ever considered that starting your own online business might be the way to achieving those things? Well today Laura Licursi joins the girls to chat about how she became a virtual assistant, what she does now to help other virtual assistants and how you can build your own online business right now! You'll hear more about: Laura's best advice for getting started in the online world What can happen when you get information from multiple sources The first place to look when starting your own business Fundamental steps you must take in order to be successful without the overwhelm One big issue Laura sees people struggling with when trying to run an online business Some of the top reasons why you may want to start your own business What you ultimately want when breaking away from the corporate world The flexibility your own business can give you Laura's thought on if everyone can be an entrepreneurship Why you need to always be networking in your business (and it's not why you think!) And so much more! Laura Licursi is the founder of Elite Virtual Assistants, The Elite VA Hub, The VA School & EVA-Match. EVA is a virtual staffing agency that helps attorneys, busy professionals and small business owners go from busy to productive. Laura also supports women in the virtual assistant space with The Elite VA Hub which is a free community and resource center, The VA School which is an online course teaching women how to start their own VA business from the ground up, and Elite VA Match which is a virtual assistant match-making site. Virtual assistants can promote their business & potential clients can find that perfect VA. Laura's Resources: Websites: elitevirtualassist.com, elitevahub.com, elitevamatch.com, Social Media: twitter.com/evassist, facebook.com/elitevirtualassist, linkedin.com/in/lauralicursi/, instagram.com/elite_assist/, pinterest.com/evassist, https://www.facebook.com/groups/elitevahub Resources: Erin's Instagram: @erin_travelsforlife Rachel's Instagram: @iamrachelbrooks The Confident Woman Podcast Instagram: @theconfidentwomanpodcast Quotes: “I was just really ready to kind of up it and become a real business owner.” - Laura “You don't need to throw in the kitchen sink.” - Laura “When you love what you do it doesn't feel like work.” - Laura “You always want to be doing something to keep you and your business moving forward.” - Laura --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theconfidentwoman/message
Claudia Tappeser talked with Laura Newman (from Devon/UK) about her SuperVision, SuperPower and SuperHabits. Laura's greatest teacher ist her daughter, she love travelling and supporting families around the globe. When I invited her to the talk, she said: "I'm also a part of the way of "HEALING Care" in the world!" At the heart of everything in Laura's world childrens need to feel safe, connected and confident in their relationships. Thank you for encouraging with your vision dear Laura! Say hello to Laura: You have a child? You are a child :-)? Hear what Laura like to say to YOU: https://www.sendfamilyconnections.com ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ Claudia Tappeser is the founder of HEALING CARE in Berlin/Germany. For more than eleven years she has been supporting people to find and strengthen their intuitive and medial gifts. It is her aim to enable every person to use these individual talents in their professional and private lives. Her vision is a world were love, joy and freedom are a core value. For encouraging her clients in their personal development, she recently has been appointed a MUT.POINT by the MUT.VISION-Movement. Imprint: HEALING Care Claudia Tappeser Luitpoldstrasse 7 D-10781 Berlin +49 (0)30 62932887 podcast@healingcare.de https://healingcare.de https://claudiatappeser.com https://meetClaudiaTappeser.com https://healingcareshop.com Do you like this SuperVisionaries podcast? I am very grateful for your support via PayPal to be able to produce further interviews: paypal.me/HEALINGCare (Subject: "Claudia, I love what you do! Please do more ...!"). --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/claudia-tappeser/message
In this episode we will speak with our dear friend Nadjana Dueck about racism, her personal experiences, the current situation in the USA and Germany as well as approaches to what everyone can do in order to make a difference in this world.Nadjana was born in Munich, as a daughter of an African American mother from Harlem NYC and a white father from Munich/ Germany. She has lived in Munich, New York City and Las Vegas before moving to Los Angeles in 2018.We are highly grateful for this open, educational and inspirational conversation with her. And we would appreciate it if you will share this podcast episode with every human you know.Tune in, get inspired, spread the message and change the world with us!Yours Anja & Laura_________________You can find Nadjana on Instagram: instagram.com/hotchocolate23Books we suggest to read:The Slave Narrative by Frederick DouglassThe Confessions by Nat TurnerYou can also watch the following documentary on Netflix:The 13th
They say that a goldfish grows to the size of its tank. But what if that small fish is ready to launch into a bigger pond? That is the situation Sea Bags has found itself in recently. With a rabid following and millions in revenue, the Portland, Maine-based retail store has outgrown its initial eCommerce setup and is ready to grow into a major totes and accessories brand thanks to growth fueled by personalization, storytelling and an incredible social media presence. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Laura Hnatow, the Vice President, Marketing & Ecommerce at Sea Bags, explains how she is helping to expand the eCommerce platform using a cross-platform social media strategy, and she digs into the re-platforming experience she is leading to help Sea Bags utilize tools like A.I. and M.L. to grow their business both online and as they expand to brick and mortar locations. Key Takeaways: Content, social media and UGC utilization are critical in building and maintaining an active and engaged customer base Re-platforming offers an opportunity to utilize new tools such as A.I. and machine learning to introduce new forms of personalization in product offerings as well as marketing strategies The power of storytelling is the most important tool in your toolkit to differentiate yourself from the competition For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible eCommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome to the show. Laura: Hi, thanks for having me. Stephanie: I'm really excited about you joining me today. I just was browsing through your website, Sea Bags, and I wanted to buy like about five things. Laura: Oh, that's flattering. Stephanie: Yeah. It's awesome. An awesome product. I'd love to hear a little bit about what Sea Bags, in your own words, and why you joined it. Laura: Yeah. Sea Bags is a company based in Portland, Maine, that manufacturers bags, totes and accessories from recycled sails from sailboats. We gather those sails one at time from the boating community all around the country, and bring them back to Portland, where we cut them down one-by-one. Each sail is a little bit different, therefore each bag is a little bit different from the next. People come to visit us in Portland, where they can actually see the bags being made on the waterfront, at our building that actually overhangs the water, with the hum of lobster boats outside, along with the sewing machines and the seagulls. It's really a great experience in quintessential Maine. Laura: The reason why I joined Sea Bags... It was almost seven years ago at this point. The opportunity was presented to be by the current CEO. It was the story effectively. The whole story about the brand. It was so compelling. I've worked for a number of brand manufacturers before, L.L. Bean and Cuddledown. They all had great manufacturing stories to tell, but this story was so much more authentic and rich. It was that authenticity that made the story so easy to tell. They also had built the brand up on these three core tenets, that drive the business every day. It was this very defined mission behind the company, of being made in the U.S.A., sustainable in product and practice, and also committed to giving back to the community generously. Those three things guide all of our decision-making in everything that we do. With such a clear mission and mandate, in terms of how we were going to grow the business forward, to me it seemed like a no-brainer to join that team. Stephanie: Yeah. That's very cool. What is the story behind Sea Bags? I think it started with the Founder's dad. Right? Laura: Yeah. Many years ago, the original founder, Hannah, her dad, he was in the sail bag-making industry, for the actual bags that hold sails in between seasons. He made a recommendation to his daughter, "You should try to figure out what to do with these old sails. They're just going to landfills." She crafted the first ones. It's our current COO, Beth, who actually grew the business from there. She partnered with her and then grew the business to where we're at now, with the help of our current leadership and CEO. Yeah. It started as a hobby business, and now has really ground to be a lifestyle brand. Stephanie: That's amazing.The one thing I really liked, which I didn't know before, was I didn't realize that sailboat sails actually can't break down. So when you guys say you're focused on sustainability, you really mean it. Nothing would happen with those sails, if you didn't transform them and give them a second life. Is that correct? Laura: You're absolute right. Yeah. Predominantly sailboat sails are made out a material called Dacron. Dacron has an element of plastic fiber in it. It's that resilience that lets the sail hold up to the strength of the wind and actually propel a sailboat forward. But it is that strength in the fiber and how it's made that makes our bags so durable as well. Because of that inability to break down in the landfill, we knew that that material, itself, would be perfect for a bag. They wear like steel. People have gone into our store to show off, "Here's my bag. I brought it 15 years ago." They wash it regularly in the washing machine. They look great. Yeah. They do wear really well. Stephanie: That's so cool. How do you convey that uniqueness to your customers, especially through an online experience? I saw some really great videos that you all had on your website, which I thought were amazing. Is that part of the way that you convey that? Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Storytelling is one of the things that we do best. Like I said, that's why I joined the brand, is this rich story. We do a lot of content creation on our team. It's easy to do content creation when you have a lot to work with. Building really great video content... We have a new line of products all the time. We have new partners that we're collaborating with regularly. So being able to stitch together different videos, content pages on the website. We integrate a lot of user-generated content into the website and our marketing. Laura: So things like customer testimonials, but also customer images. We have a very rich user-generated content campaign, called our Sea Bag Citing campaign. It's a hashtag. And customers in that campaign will tag us and show us all the places they take their Sea Bag. It's really a great opportunity for us, because when we see a great picture, instead of us having to go out and stage a photo shoot, we've got a really authentic image of somebody vacationing using their bag in the environment that it was intended for. Stephanie: Yeah. I was very impressed when I saw your social media following and how engaged people were and the really great photos they were tagging you all in. I definitely see the world of online sales seems to be moving to social media and building a community. How do you think about building that up, and creating relevant content, and keeping those followers engaged? Laura: Yeah. I'd say it's one of the things we're really good at, but it's also probably one of the things that's the most challenging in what we do. Because people spend a lot of time on social media, but everybody's competing for their attention. I have a social media team with multiple partners on it. I've tasked them with making sure, across all the platforms, that, number one, we're showing different content, to keep different types of people engaged. And the other thing is that we're hitting the breadth of content that I'd like us to do. Laura: They have a filter that they put all of our content through, to make sure that we're showing the right variety of, and frequency of, things like behind the scenes images, testimonials, new product launches, PR news that we're doing. We're trying to make sure that we hit the breadth. And also, we're tailoring it to the specific types of platforms. Obviously Facebook and LinkedIn are not a synonymous platform so we make sure that some of the content goes on one location and we speak to those audiences a little bit differently. Laura: I think customers want to be invited to participate and we do a lot of that with either surprise and delight opportunities, where we ask people to come and bid on something for a chance a win to a wristlet. A wristlet is a small item. It's not like a vacation getaway. But that alone... people love the gesture. They love to participate. It's really interesting. When somebody does win a prize, it's funny how authentically and genuinely thrilled for the winner the other customers are. It does become very communal. They're like, "Oh, my God. I'm so happy for you. Great job. You're going to love it." Laura: Then we also find that customers... Getting back to this idea of engagement. This is delightful for us. Customers sometimes answer on our behalf. We'll get comments that say, "Do you have this bag in this color? Are you ever going to offer this again?" Before we can even comment, we'll have other customers saying, "Yes, they have it. You can go to this page." It's almost like we've got these brand ambassadors stalking us right within our social media. That is so flattering. It really does speak to a highly-engaged social media following. Stephanie: Yeah. That's amazing. Having people who are working for you and your brand without even asking. Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: It's a key strategy, if you can figure it out. Laura: It is. It's great. Stephanie: Are there any new emerging digital channels that you are excited about or focused on right now? Laura: I think in terms of new channels, I don't think there is one. Social media really is where we're spending a lot of our time as a channel, in terms of trying to grow audience and engagement. We are playing around with some things like influencer marketing, which is important. I think some people might not call it new and emerging either. We're doing quite a bit in just dabbling in lots of different spaces. There is a lot of overlap. I think video is probably where we found the most success, in terms of developing content and distributing. Video specifically for Facebook has been fantastic for us. We're repurposing a lot of that video content again. We like to recycle. We put it in a lot of places. We're trying to incorporate it into the site. We use it for things like Instagram Stories. It's been really fruitful, so that's been really fun. Stephanie: Very cool. Any key strategy that you have when it comes to guiding a customer through that buying journey while utilizing social? Laura: It's interesting. We have a really defined and fine-tuned digital marketing strategy. We work with a great partner that helps us distribute all of our paid advertising. That would include paid social. One of the things about paid social that I think is challenging for people... I do chat with folks who say, "Facebook doesn't really work for us." I am always surprised to hear that. I think part of it is, it's the type of content that you're putting out in terms of advertising on Facebook advertising. Making sure you have the right mix of video, and static ads and then dynamic remarketing ads are really important. Laura: I think the other thing, too, is how you measure it. Of course, there's different attribution models. Last click attribution and first click attribution. Of course, Facebook measures the performance differently than some other folks might measure it. We base it on Facebook's measurement. When you base it that way, you'll see that the programs themselves actually perform much better than if you base it on the other attrition models out there using Google Analytics. Stephanie: That's interesting. I definitely see Facebook stepping their game up with the launch of I think it's Facebook Shops just yesterday or the day before. Laura: Yeah. It's so interesting. The landscape is changing quite a bit. I was actually talking about this recently with the CEO, because we see organic shifting quite a bit. We're doing a lot, in terms of SEO on the website and building organic content. We have a blog that we try to regularly publish. It's made a big impact on our SEO, but then all of a sudden when you have the search results pages changing to favor, again, more ad space? You do immediately see a falloff in your organic search results. Paid search all of a sudden is also doing much better, but you're also spending a lot more money perhaps than you had intended to. Stephanie: Are you guys doing any quick pivots to try and bring back the organic searches? How do you think about that when things change so quickly? Laura: Yeah. I don't think there is a quick pivot with organic. Organic is a long game, as always. The pivot that we're doing right now, and I wouldn't even call it that. We are looking at our digital strategy on a daily basis and really refining things. So if we see something taking off, we are chasing it. A great example is shopping at one point was doing very poorly. We didn't know why and watched it for about a week or two. It was right when things were headed down to a flat line period at the end of March. Everybody was in kind of a lull. Then all of sudden things turned around and a lot of e-commerce folks were seeing a spike. As soon as we saw that spike, we chased it. I think that's the thing. You really have to be on top of it and know when to chase it and keep increasing your budget. Laura: We've increased our budgets in area like shopping more than we've typically been comfortable. I would say the same goes for Facebook Prospecting. We found that Facebook Prospecting is performing incredibly well for us. We do a lot of prospecting with video ads for Facebook as well, and those are very productive too. Stephanie: Very cool. Did you have to adjust any messaging when it came to acting fast on that? With everything going on with the pandemic, did you kind of change how you target people and market to them? How do you think about that? Laura: We changed the messaging. Yeah. We definitely wanted to make sure we weren't being tone deaf to what was going on. We definitely pulled down any ads that had anything to do with travel-related products. We have a great travel collection. We pulled down all of those because nobody was going to be traveling. I think the thing that we did more so than the actual ad strategy was our product strategy changed a little bit. We wanted to look at our product from the viewpoint of how we could add more value to it, to help solve problems for people who were now stuck at home and still had life to conduct. Laura: The example I'll give is Easter came around and people were kind of caUght off guard by the idea that, "Oh, our Easter family celebration is not going to happen. The Easter egg hunt is not going to happen. I have a grandchild. How are we going to commemorate this holiday that is very important to a good portion of the population?" We quickly partnered with a local chocolate company that had just laid off most of its workforce. They were able to bring back five of their employees to help produce chocolate to put in our Easter buckets. Stephanie: That's great. Laura: Within a very short period of time... We thought, "We might sell 50 of these over the next three or four days." We sold over 700. It was one of those things that every day, we said, "How many more do we need?" It was really a matter of how much chocolate could the chocolate maker make in that short period of time? It was a real success story, in being able to reach out, help a fellow business in the community, but also solve some problems for customers. The comments we got from customers were unbelievable. Just saying how appreciative they were because they weren't going to be able to see their family and bring them something. This is how they were able to do that. Laura: So that was really rewarding. That afforded us a lot of opportunity in our digital advertising to reach new customers, to convert customers who were prospects and who were already looking into the brand. It was more about just being relevant with a message that solved a problem for customers. So then we took that same product strategy and same digital strategy and expanded it onto Mother's Day, and Father's Day, and Graduation. Even though a lot of the stay-at-home orders have been loosened a bit? I think a lot of people are still looking for some convenience to eliminate any unnecessary visits to stores that they don't want to make. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree. That's such a good strategy, to find partnerships like that. I could see that lasting into the future, where a lot of brands start thinking about who they can partner with. That seems like it would help future-proof both brands, if they figure out ways to work together and send business to each other. I think we'll see more of that over the coming years. Laura: Yeah. I hope so. I know for our brand, we're not going to stop doing it. It was a pilot that was a success. Now we've realized there is an opportunity here and the customers see the value in it. We've always been very collaborative as a brand. We typically do reach out and collaborate with a handful of companies that are like-minded in their business practices and approach. What we often bring to the table is that we're a sustainable product and they might not have that same messaging in their product that they can offer. Or the fact that we're a Made in the U.S.A. product, which again is really valuable to a lot of brands to partner with us. So we have similar mindsets and very much focused the Coastal lifestyles perhaps. Laura: A more recent relevant example, we're partnering right now with Life Is Good. If you're not familiar with that brand, they are an apparel and accessory company that basically delivers the message of optimism in all of their designs. Really quirky designs that we are now able to add to a Sea Bag, and then with these really important optimistic messages during this time that we're all going through. It resonates really broadly with customers. That's another example of ways that we reach out and collaborate. It's given Life Is Good an opportunity to have a Bag story that they sell to their audience, and it gives us a different story in terms of different designs and messaging for our audience as well. Stephanie: That's great. When it comes to messaging, does the consumer know the background of the flag, where it came from and the journeys that sailboat went on? Do they have any insights into that, so they can find of feel connected to their bag even more? Laura: Yeah. It's interesting. We would love to be able to pedigree every bag, but when you start talking about 700 tons of sails that we've saved from landfills, it's really, really challenging to figure out how we could actually catalog that many sails. On a one-to-one basis, no. But what we do is when we take a sail in, our customers are so great about wanting to share the stories. So we've had many cases where a Sail Trade, is what we call it. The customer will bring a sail into our store, for example. Just show up and unfold the sail right in the middle of the retail store and start talking about, "Oh, this is the sail that was on my grandfather's boat. As a kid, we sailed." They just go into this long elaborate story. What we try to do is get somebody from the marketing team downstairs to take notes, and talk to them about it and basically interview them a little bit about what the story behind the sail is. Because that stuff is so meaningful. Laura: We have a really great one on our website called The Santana Sail Trade Story. The gentlemen, Ben, tells the story about how this boat meant everything to him. He had this boat since he was 15. At this point, he was in his late 40s, maybe early 50s. He still has the boat but was retiring the sails. He talked about the different moments that that boat was present for his life and every smudge and stain on that sail means something. He hoped that everybody who buys a bag really understands how meaningful the heart of the sails are. Stephanie: That's great. Feeling like you're connected to a community like that, and another person, without even knowing them, I think it's super important. What people are going to want after all this. Now we're all getting in the state where we're connecting with people that we don't even know online. Laura: Right. Stephanie: We're getting used to that now. I think moving in that direction is really smart and also just fun. Knowing that you have something that has experienced things that you could never even think of. Laura: Yeah. Yeah. We like to say that carrying a Sea Bag is like carrying a story on your shoulder. Stephanie: Yeah. That's great. Have you ever had a sail come through where you're like, "This is from a pirate ship?" Laura: I don't know about that. There is a type of sail called tanbark. It's like a dyed tan-colored sail. The lure of tanbark, it's not often used in sail manufacturing today. It's definitely not as common. The lure is that the pirates, they used to use tanbark sails so that they wouldn't be seen on the horizon with the sunset. It was the way that they were able to sneak about in the ocean and not be spotted in the distance with a bright white sail. Stephanie: That's cool. So if you see one of those come through, you'll know. You'll know where it came from. Laura: Yeah, exactly. I do think we have some tanbark on the site right now. It is definitely a little bit more rare and we tend not to offer it all the time. But I think we have a handful of tanbark designs right now. They're just so cool because they are really uncommon and we don't always offer it. Stephanie: I'd also be giving the side eye to whoever brought that in, like, "What did you do to get this sail?" Laura: Exactly! I could be looking for their medallion. "Are you actually a pirate?" Stephanie: Yeah. I know. "Tell me." Obviously retail is on hold right now, but I saw you guys were expanding. Expanding actually one place that is close to my heart, Rehoboth Beach, in Delaware. Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Stephanie: We used to go there every single summer. I'm from Maryland. Such a cute beach town. How are you thinking about utilizing brick and mortar stores? How are they lifting each other up and accelerating your e-commerce as well? Laura: That's a great question. By the end of this year, we'll have 33 stores, spanning 12 states. That's really exciting for us because when I joined the company, we had two stores. That's a lot of growth. We open four to six stores a year. We're opening eight this year, alone, which is really, really exciting. I think that one of the important things with meshing the retail business and the online business is just a general omnichannel approach. Right? Laura: Our CEO likes to say that the e-commerce site is our biggest retail store. It carries all the products for the brand and you can see them all there at any time. And you go to our stores, and the stores may have most of those products but some different selections that might be regionally appropriate. For example, you mentioned Rehoboth Beach. There might be some coastal nautical chart bags down in the Rehoboth Beach store relevant to that regional area. So there's some things like that. But we try to do... Stephanie: Crabs all over the bags and whatnot? Laura: Right. Yeah. To customize and be relevant to that local region. If you were to go to a store and they didn't have a product, the great thing is that you can log onto the iPad at the store. They can get the bag for you that you were looking for and ship for free. We're using an endless aisle concept that leverages the flexibility that we have as a just-in-time manufacturer. We make our bags on demand for customers. It's great to have that flexibility, where we don't have lead times to worry about. We're sourcing everything locally here in the United States. Most everything we source is within New England. That's really criticaL, in terms of being able to take an order and turn it around in a matter of days. Stephanie: Yeah. That's huge. With all this expansion that you guys are experiencing, how have you had to adjust your technology, your platforms you're using. What does that process look like with such a large amount of change that you guys have been experiencing? Laura: Yeah. It's great. I'm actually really excited about this. It's very timely. We decided right in the beginning of this year to move forward with replatforming our website. It's a huge endeavor. We realize that over the last six years, we've been on this very exciting ride of growth and expansion. Quite simply, we've outgrown the website platform that we're using. I do find it really rewarding to think that we have squeezed every ounce that we could get out of the current platform we're on. There's nothing that we have left unturned. Laura: Embarking onto this new platform, we're working with Salesforce Commerce Cloud. There are so many new opportunities for us to improve the customer experience and to refine our practices, in terms of how we approach selling to customers. Using new technology like artificial intelligence and machine learning, personalization, I think we're going to be as a team much more efficient and much more sophisticated in how we are able to speak to our customers and give them what they want. It's going to take us a lot less time to manage that. I'm really excited about being able to grow the business utilizing those types of tools specifically for the e-commerce website. But the great thing is that it really does trickle into the other channels as well that we sell in retail, for example, too. Stephanie: Yeah. That's very cool. Tell me a little bit more details around how you plan on using AI. When you think of using that with Commerce Cloud, what are your ideas around how that's going to improve the consumer experience? What does that look like? Laura: Yeah. We have some personalization currently on the site that we do. Not too much. It's mostly personalized recommendations. I'm really looking forward to using that, in terms of... One of the most exciting things for me is the merchandising of the site and making sure that the predictive sort of the categories. When a customer lands on a page with 150 different wristlets, that the ones that are most relevant to them are actually rising to the top. It's not based on a static presentation of what we think is the most important things to put at the top. Laura: I think that's really important. One of the things on our roadmap after the site is launched, is to actually take a look at the marketing opportunities in terms of email marketing and how we can pull some of the artificial intelligence into the journey map of the customer and how we message to the customer in their lifecycle. I think a lot of those components as well will be really exciting to start to create not just a series. I think in the past, people have created a welcome series, or a trigger series after they buy X product. Laura: I think instead what I want this to be is a more dynamic opportunity to generate emails to customers that are, again, pulling in predictive content. So the customers have performed certain activities, and then the machine learning decides, "Okay, great. Because they did these five things, the most relevant thing to put here is this item and a message about this." That's what I'm excited about. And then being able to look at that data. I think the data is so exciting too, and knowing what works and what's not working. And being able to do site tweaks and adjustments to it will be really helpful. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree. I was just going to ask, were there any metrics that you paid attention to in the past that you think it will be way easier to get to? Or that you weren't able to access easily because it was too hard to maybe compile all the data and see it easily. What are some of those metrics if so, that are now going to be accessible to you that'll really help? Laura: I'm not sure if this definitely going to make it easier. But what I'm really more excited about is seeing... The measurements are customer lifetime value and customer acquisition costs. Starting to really understand the customer lifecycle better. So that once we see customers logging onto the website. Also, we just launched a Customer Loyalty program. Getting customers more engaged and in the habit of, "To get your reward points, logging in and making sure." We're keeping track of what customers are doing and delivering them relevant content, as opposed to just sending them too many emails. Laura: I think I was telling you, I'm in the process right now of cleaning out my email and unsubscribing from everything possible. I don't want people to have that experience with our brand. Saying, "You guys just email me too much." I want the contact that we're sending them to be interesting. The one thing I will tell you, and again this goes back to how we engaged our audience is. The open rates on our emails are really high. The click through rates are high. Our customers, like when we do these auctions periodically on the website. Laura: After the auction is complete, we usually take a look at who won the auction. We'll just see who the customer is. What's their lifecycle like? Almost every time when we do this, the customers email open rate is over 80%. They're highly-engaged people. Of course, they're participating in an auction. You would assume that. But it is so interesting to see somebody opening that emails from us. That to me, is a real testament to the strength of the brand and how engaged people are. Stephanie: That means you're definitely doing something right. For sure. How are you assembling the team for this digital transformation that you guys are about to undergo? How are you thinking about aligning your organization and your team members so everyone can help make this transition quick and easy? Laura: Yeah. That is critical. So what we did, it's probably not so different than what a lot of other folks might do. I assembled a core team. A Project Manager whose in charge of managing the project with our Systems Integrator. Then I have a Lead Developer in-house. His job is really to get into the technical details behind the development and transition. Because he has been primarily responsible for all of the development on our current website. I'm on the team, more from a strategic guidance standpoint and decision-making. Then our CEO has been really involved as well, which I really appreciate. Laura: This is the biggest project that our company has undertaken in the last six years, to do this type of major replatforming. It's a totally new platform. We've done some previous site launches and relaunches, but this one's pretty huge. I still have a number of other people on my marketing team who will participate and we'll start pulling them in one-by-one. We'll also embarking on a training curriculum, that we're developing in-house for our team. That's going to be going on while we're doing the developing, so that we're ready to go when the site's ready to launch. Laura: We're also looking at peripheral technology that is impacted by this transition. So an example I might give you is, our shipping platform and how we ship products. That was impacted. We needed to make a decision to shift to another provider. We assembled pilot team to get together and review the technology available and the vendor. We got all our decision-makers in one room and everybody agreed said, "Yes, let's do it." We've been making these decisions quickly. Kind of in that agile methodology of those sprints. Laura: Part of that is a function of how the Systems Integrator has outlined and structured the project. We have a very tight timeline, too. We're looking to have the website launched by October 1st. We started it in mid-March. We're definitely on an accelerated scheduled and we don't want to miss any milestones. Knock on wood, we are currently on target. So I'm excited about that. Stephanie: That's so fun. I can't wait to see the new site and try it out. Are there any digital commerce trends that you guys are preparing for, as you're launching this new platform and putting out a V2 of the brand? Are you preparing anything in the e-commerce space that you think is coming down the pike, that you're thinking, "We better get ready for this, or this trend?" Laura: No. I can't say that we're focused on anything like that right now. We're definitely mostly looking at the capabilities of the new platform. Like I said, the AI and machine learning component is so rich, that we see that as foundation to changing how we approach, how we do our marketing strategies and communicate with customers. So I think that's really the biggest opportunity for us. Stephanie: Very cool. One side question I had was, when you have your customers tagging all these photos and they're flowing into your website, are people able to buy from those photos right now? Laura: Yeah. On a limited basis right now. When we launch the new site, it'll much more prolific. You'll be able to buy from almost all of them. Stephanie: Yeah. That's great. Laura: I think that's really critical and it's important. Stephanie: Yeah. I know. When I was looking at all the different photos that you guys were getting tagged in, I'm like, "Oh, I want this Bag." There was this one alignment. It was like a tan orangeish bag but it had a duffle bag, and a bigger bag and there was like three of them together. I'm like, "If I could just click in and get this set, it would be so much easier than going into the website and trying to find out what this is called, or trying to figure out which one it was." Laura: Yeah. It's really interesting. The thing about user-generated content is that the customers put the product in context that we wouldn't necessarily be able to in our marketing because it wouldn't make sense. I'll give you an example. Just this week, we received a review from a customer, that was a picture of what they were calling a COVID Survival Pack that they were sending out their friends. It was a Sea Bag's beverage bucket bag. A beverage bucket is kind of a like a tall 14-inch high bucket that has handles, and the interior has six pockets for six beers. Then in the very middle is like a cavity that you can put ice and it has a grommet in the bottom, so that the ice can melt and escape out of the bottom of the bag. So it's a collapsible cooler. Laura: While they were filling the buckets with six Corona beers, and then put a roll of toilet paper in the center. They were mailing these out to their friends as COVID Survival Packs. It got such a laugh for us. It also is great, in terms of giving other customers ideas on ways to use our product in a way that is memorable and fun. Yeah. There's a lot of that. But like I said, that whole idea of content creation... While a lot of stuff can come from us and we can push it out, when it comes our audience, it's even more relevant. Stephanie: Yeah. That's such a fun idea. I want one of those Survival Packs right now. Person whoever made that, please send one my way. I want lime as well. Laura: Yeah. The lime would be great. Stephanie: Yeah. That's a necessity. That's a good point, too, for larger brands. We work with a lot of larger brands developing podcasts for them and whatnot. When you have your customers, where they can actually interact how they want. They don't have to go through the brand policy team and all these approvals and things like this, where maybe 80% of it would never get past the company's PR team. But when the customers are able to engage the way that they want to, it seems like it allows for more organic conversations to start and just things that maybe wouldn't normally get past the actual internal policies. It makes it more fun to have those customers who can do that stuff. Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. I agree. Stephanie: So to shift a little bit. Are you the founder of Women in Retail Leadership Circle? Laura: No, not the founder. Stephanie: Tell me about that. Laura: I'm very flattered. No. Women in Retail Leadership Circle is a national organization that basically connects senior women in leadership, C level and director level, in retail organizations. They were started about seven years ago. They're backed by NATCO Media. I was a founding advisory board member, on the team there. So I've been involved over the last almost seven years. They've grown significantly in size over that time. It's one of the most energized and engaged leadership groups I've ever participated in. They have an Annual Conference that I can say is nothing short of transformational. It has been rescheduled this year for October. I'm hoping that I'll be traveling, to be able to go to it. Laura: Even so, during COVID. The conference is usually in April. They were very quick to figure out how they could be of service to their audience. They set up peer groups that leaders could participate in on a biweekly basis with opportunities to share advice and experience with other senior female leadership. During more normal times, they do regular what they call On The Road Events, where you can connect in a major city, like Boston or New York, over an evening of cocktails or something like that with leaders like Rebecca Minkoff talking about her leadership struggles perhaps. It's a great way to collaborate with other companies. Laura: I've been able to uncover new tactics and strategies for growth. I also use it as a tool to refine my leadership style, because there's a lot of inspirational leadership that we share in those, like I said, events that they sponsor. They're doing a lot of stuff virtually right now. The thing I like the most about it, is it's noncompetitive. It's just great personal development at the senior leadership level, which I think there doesn't happen to be a lot of that typically. A lot of the personal development that happens in organizations usually is more at a junior level. Stephanie: That's really cool. Is there anyone in the industry that you look to for not only leadership, but maybe different tactics or strategies that they're trying out or doing? Do you keep an eye on anyone to incorporate at Sea Bags? Like incorporate what they're doing? Laura: Yeah. I look at a lot of brands, which is the reason why I need to pair down my emails so much. I do. I track a lot of folks. I also follow a lot of people on LinkedIn, because I feel like it's just a great opportunity to see what everyone's doing. As a brand, we try to spend time benchmarking and keeping our eye on brands, again, that are very, very correlated with our DNA. Coastal lifestyle brands, like Sperry Top-Sider, Life is Good, a very inspirational brand. We have a lot of partnerships like that. We also try to keep an eye towards some more local name brands too that we partner with, and just benchmarking what they're doing. Laura: And we also share a lot of information too. An example of that would be Stonewall Kitchen, which is a gourmet food brand. They also are on Sales Commerce Cloud. While we were going through this whole replatforming project, being able to reach out to people within our network and benchmark around what their experiences were on their websites platforms and technologies that they're using is really important. Stephanie: That's great. Having that little network that you can tap into and be like, "Hey, how did you guys do this?" Or, "Does this work better, or this strategy?" That's really fun. And all about, once again, tying it back to having that community that you can tap into to get answers from and learn from people who've already gone through that. Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Over the years, that's one thing that I learned very early in my career. Some of my leaders, actually one that I'm still working with today, who is on our Board at Sea Bags, taught me how important that skill of networking was and that networking is a two-way street. It's really important to make sure that you're not only asking things of people and keeping in touch with them, but you're also being a value to them as well, in terms of that networking relationship. Stephanie: Yeah. That's such a great point. Coming up next we have the Lightning Round, which I can tell you a little bit more about in a second. But do you have thoughts or ideas that you want to share before we move onto that? Laura: Geez, thoughts that I want to share. Stephanie: Anything that we missed? Laura: I'm sure there's something we missed. But I think we covered a lot, too. I'm excited to hear what the Lightning Round is all about. Stephanie: All right. Cool. So the Lightning Round, bought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. It's where I ask a question and you have one minute or less to answer. Are you ready? Laura: I guess so. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your reading list? Laura: Oh, on my reading list. I am about to start... I'm like one chapter in. A book by the founder of IDEO. I think his name is Dave Kelly, if remember correctly. It's a book all about innovation and idea generation and how to approach innovation a little bit differently. I'm really excited about that. I'm definitely one of those people that reads multiple books at once, too. Stephanie: Yeah. Me, too. I think they did have a space here in Palo Alto, right down the street from us. Laura: Yeah. I think you're right. I think you're right. The name of the book is The Art of Innovation. Stephanie: Okay. Cool. Laura: It's Tom Kelly. I got his name wrong. Stephanie: Tom Kelly. Got it. For everyone, Tom Kelly. Yeah. That's really funny. We went and we were touring office spaces. We toured through their building. It was very forward-thinking and innovative. I mean, just like what you were talking about. It was all about R&D and trying new things. It was cool to see the inner workings of their space. Laura: Very cool. Stephanie: What's up next on your Netflix or Hulu Video? Laura: Oh, I am watching Ozark. I know I'm a little painfully behind. Yeah. I'm trying to make my way through into, I think, season three of Ozark. I am really enjoying that and it's a problem I will sometimes stay up way to late trying to fit in just one more episode. Stephanie: Yeah. Me, too. I love that show. What's the next conference you're excited about attending? Laura: I am really excited about the Women in Retail Leadership Conference. Like I said, I hope it's happening in October. This is, as I mentioned, it's a transformational opportunity for me to go talk with other senior female leaders about their challenges and opportunities and where they're seeing growth within their companies. I've walked away from this conference before getting lots of new ideas, new business opportunities and third-party partners to work with and collaboration opportunities. So that to me is what I'm most looking forward to and I hope that it still happens, especially because it's in Miami in October, which will be a really nice time of year to be there. Stephanie: That's very cool. I'll have to check that out. What are you doing for fun these days? Any passions that you have? Laura: I am actually, after this podcast, going to jump on my boat with my husband and two kids for the first time this season. That is actually our big passion. This is the kickoff to boating season in Maine, Memorial Day weekend. Usually while I'm on the boat, the things that I do is knit. I've been knitting a sweater for four years now, that I am committed to finishing this year. That's my goal. Stephanie: You have to post a picture when it's done, so we can all see it. Laura: I will. I hope it actually fits. I'm kind of laughing at it going, "I don't even know if this is going to fit." I end up probably giving it as a gift. Stephanie: Yeah. My mom got into sewing and knitting and all that. She was trying to make us outfits, just for fun. Sweaters and things like that. She ended making one that ended up having to go towards our Shih Tzu dog because it... She was like, "Oh, this went really wrong." Laura: Yeah. It can go wrong quickly. That's what I'm worried about. I've ripped out a few rows of this a few times and I'm not sure I recounted correctly. So we'll see. I post a picture regardless of what it looks like. Stephanie: Great. It's a journey. Laura: Yeah. Stephanie: The next hard question. You guys at Sea Bags are moving quick. You're having to transition platforms. It's your job to stay ahead on the expectations and your competition and all that. What do you think is up next for e-commerce pros? Laura: Up next for e-commerce pros. I think that we really are going to have to focus on is how to take omnichannel retailing to the next level. I think that that term, omnichannel, is really broadly thrown around. I think that people don't really understand what it is. I think that we need to be able to deliver a seamless customer experience regardless of where they're shopping and figure out, also, how to do it without inconveniencing customers with asking for their information repeatedly. Laura: I think that's one of the challenges in retail, is being able to know when somebody places an order in one of your retail stores, and being able to translate that into their customer profile so that you have, again, that really full 360-degree picture of that journey of that customer and really knowing what their full lifetime value is. Again, so that you can come back and customize and personalize their shopping experience and make it more rich. They feel valued because they know that you're speaking to them in a way that is informed and caring about what value they play for your brand. Stephanie: That's a great answer. Laura, it's been blast. Thank you for coming on the show. For all our listeners, go check out Sea Bags and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review this podcast. Let's help spread the word and spread stories like the one Laura shared today. Laura, thanks. I hope to have you back. Laura: Thank you so much for having me. It was an absolute joy. Stephanie: It really was. Yeah.
Beer Christianity presents: 19 recommendations for your lockdown. (Full list with links at BeerChristianity.libsyn.com) From podcasts to Netflix (and other) series, to radio drama, films and real life activities. Stay sane with out top 19! Drabs, Lau-Lau and Jonty give you their recommendations: Beer Christianity's Covid-19 Top 19 Streaming series Mindhunter (Drabs) Brooklyn Nine-Nine (Laura) Tiger King (Jonty) [We recorded this before everyone had watched this] Activities 4. Gardening (Drabs) 5. Cross-stitch/needlepoint/something like that. (Laura) You can buy kits on Etsy. 6. Making chutney (Jonty). Soak a lot of fruit in vinegar for a day (mango, peach, nectarine, pineapple, etc. Few apples for thickening. Add in some onion and chilli and even courgettes). Then put them in your biggest pot with lots of vinegar and lots of sugar (like 1:1:1) plus a little salt, and boil for hours, stirring to make sure it doesn't burn. It should turn brown and thick and sweet and tangy and delicious. Films 7. John Wick (Drabs) 8. You Were Never Really Here (Jonty) 9. Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind (Laura) Album/playlist 10. Covid-19 Self-isolation Stompers playlist by Morticulture (Jonty) 11. Surfer-Rosa by Pixies (Drabs) 12. Everything Sucks and Everything is Beautiful by Princess Nokia (Laura) Other media 13. The Six O'Clock News by the BBC (Drabs) 14. Time To Act by Christian Climate Action (Laura) 15. Ian Rankin's Rebus radio drama on BBC Sounds (Jonty) Podcasts and vlogs 16. Helen Paynter's walk through the Bible on YouTube (Drabs) 17. My Dad Wrote a Porno podcast (Laura) 18. A Tale of Two Singles podcast (Jonty) [Friends of Beer Christianity have started a fun Christian single woman podcast. Listen!] And the final essential to share... 19. Beer Christianity! please share and review and rate and get the word out :) Follow Beer Christianity on Twitter: @beerxianity and find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube and Stitcher. All Beer Christianity shows and info available at http://beerchristianity.libsyn.com Jesus Christ is the Son of God and came to teach us a better way to be while reconciling us to God and each other in a way we could never do without Him. He also changed water into wine. Nice.
Feeling a wee bit stuck? Struggling to get anything on the page? Well, we all are—and not only does this week’s guest know from writer’s block (her last book came out in 2004), but she gave a raging case of it to her protagonist in her new novel, which allowed her—and us—to really dig in deep into what happens when the words don’t come.Join KJ and Sarina as we talk to Laura Zigman, author of Separation Anxiety (a perfect book for this moment, all about how we’re all, every single last one of us no matter how weird or obnoxious or even put-together-seeming, just doing the best we can with what we’ve got) about writing funny, the edge between humor and empathy, and how life can get in the way of publishing even when it seems like you’re on the right track.#AmReadingJess: The Splendid and the Vile: A Saga of Churchill, Family, and Defiance During the Blitz, Eric LarsonGood Boy: My Life in Seven Dogs, Jennifer Finney BoylanPodcast: The Long Form Laura:Weather, Jenny OffillDept. of Speculation, Jenny OffillKJ: Separation Anxiety: A Novel, Laura ZigmanPodcast: Beach Too Sandy, Water Too WetSo, we know it’s rough out there. It’s rough in here, too, but I guess, in a way I’ve personally never experienced before, we really are all in this together. And we’ll come through it together whether we like it or not. As I say in the intro, we recorded this just as the Covid19 shutdown wave was about to crash over us all, and we’ve got a few other episodes we recorded in anticipation of cancelled travel that just take us right back to the olden days—those are coming in weeks ahead, along with more timely episodes.Thanks for listening and for sticking with us. We feel supported by every one of you. If you feel like kicking a little into the production kitty, (and getting #Minisodes and #WriterTopFives) click the button.This episode was sponsored by Author Accelerator—training book coaches and matching coaches and writers.Find out more: https://www.authoraccelerator.com/amwriting.Find more about Jess here, Sarina here and about KJ here.If you enjoyed this episode, we suggest you check out Marginally, a podcast about writing, work and friendship.Transcript (We use an AI service for transcription, and while we do clean it up a bit, some errors are the price of admission here. We hope it’s still helpful.)KJ: Hello it’s KJ here and this is going to be a slightly longer than usual pre-roll announcement. Jess, Sarina, and I want you to know that Sarina and I recorded this episode, an interview with Laura Zigman, just as the covid crisis was just beginning to hit. We do mention it, but probably not in the way that we would now. And on that same note, this week our sponsor Author Accelerator is giving their time over to our effort to encourage you to support your local independent bookstore during this. Remember, Amazon is not going to have any trouble making money while we're all shut up in our houses. But your bookstore is - if you want them to still be there when this is all over and it will be over and we will want them - please do the less convenient thing and support them now. Here's how when you're looking for some new books (for example Laura Zigman’s Separation Anxiety) call your favorite independent bookstore and see if they're offering curbside pickup or home delivery, many of them are. Hopping in your car getting out there and just letting them drop that book in your window is entirely still possible for a lot of us. The mail is at least still coming, or check the website to see if they have an online store. If they don't consider purchasing your books via Bookshop.org. Bookshop is the new site designed to give away 75% of their profit margins to independent bookstores. We have a small presence on Bookshop, I'll try to include that in the show notes for this episode. Profits go to all independents, we’ll have a list of them there. If you listen to audiobooks, try LibroFM. That’s Libro.FM - when you start a membership with the code shopbookstoresnow you get two audiobooks for the price of one and 100% of your payment will go back to the independent bookstore of your choice. Everyone that has an internet connection should be following our favorite bookstores and sharing them all over the place, even if they don't have a social media presence you can talk about them and share how their store is personally important to you. Help your local stores tell their story. Do take a minute to subscribe to Author Accelerator’s weekly emails, a number of their online courses are free to subscribers during this crisis. It's a hard time to keep writing (and more on that in a later episode), but this could help. Is it recording?Jess: Now it’s recording.KJ: Yay. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone like I don't remember what I was supposed to be doing.Jess: Alright, let's start over.KJ: Awkward pause, I'm going to rustle some papers.Jess: Okay.KJ: Now one, two, three. Hey, I’m KJ Dell’Antonia and this is #AmWriting. #AmWriting is the podcast about writing all the things - long things, short things, emails, proposals. In short, as I say every week this is the podcast about getting your work done. Jess: I'm Jess Lahey. I'm the author of The Gift of Failure and the upcoming Addiction Inoculation, coming out in 2021, and you can find my work at The Atlantic, The New York Times, and The Washington Post. KJ: I am KJ Dell’Antonia, the author of The Chicken Sisters, which is coming out this summer. well as How To Be a Happier Parent, out now in paperback and coming out in hardback this summer. You can also find my work at the New York Times, and all the things. I’m the same person I am every week. We have a guest today I'm so excited about. We have Laura Zigman she is the author of (as you probably know) the new, and current, and very timely (in a weird way, but we'll get into that shortly) book Separation Anxiety, as well as Animal Husbandry which was made into the movie Someone Like You starring Hugh Jackman and Ashley Judd, Dating Big Bird, Piece of Work, and Her. E2 is a contributor the New York Times, as well as the Washington Post other places. She produced a popular online series of animated videos called Annoying Conversations I know that she pulled some annoying conversations into her own writing. We're so excited to have you here.Laura: I’m thrilled to be here. KJ: So, Separation Anxiety is your first book in how many years? Laura: 14 years has passed since my last novel was published in 2006. It was a completely different world.KJ: Yes, and the amazing thing about that, or one interesting thing is that you gave your protagonist a similar case of writer's block, which unlike you she did not triumphantly overcome before the book was written, because that wouldn't make for a very good book. It’s wonderful that she has that, it works so well, but as a writer myself I feel like I would hesitate to put something autobiographical into my person. I would feel like it was wrong somehow, but it was so great that you did it. Talk about the choice to do it. Laura: You know I've always written what I call semi-autobiographical, which really starts from a place I'm always at. So my first novel was based on my experience of being a single woman living in New York and working. All of my other books sort of followed the starting point where I was, and this was no exception. I couldn't really imagine writing from another place. My experience when I started writing this novel in 2015 was just a point where it felt like the aperture on so many parts of my life had really darkened and shut down. And so that's where I was, I completely had writer's block and had had writer's block for quite a while. And I just had to start there and so I gave that to my character as well.KJ: Well it really works because it becomes a way to approach about life, but before we even get into that I would love to talk about the writer's block itself. Sorry, but we have listeners who are right there in that position whether it's for some of the same reasons like there’s just so much going on in your life or whether it's because the words just aren't coming. Back in 2006, when did you know this was big?Laura: Well, you know what happened was my fourth novel was published in 2006 and very quickly it tanked. Let's be frank, it just didn't do very well. We've all been there. I have often forgotten this little piece of the story in my head because I usually take responsibility for everything that happens to me, my own choices whether I choose to stop writing or wasn't able to overcome a lack of confidence. I forgot that at the time the book came out my agent (when it was clear the book wasn't doing very well) called me at home and said maybe I should take a break from writing fiction for a while. At the time it really crystallized my own lack of confidence so I didn't question the fact that my agent was telling me this and it would have been nice if she would have given me a different message and so I take responsibility for internalizing the message, but it really had an effect on me. It really was like somebody in a position who could have encouraged me was saying why don't you take a break because this isn’t working for you? That very quickly pushed all of my shame buttons, you know I was already embarrassed that the book didn't do very well, it just really shut me down. And then everything else started to happen - I was diagnosed with breast cancer, my parents got sick, a lot of stuff happened in my personal life which just cemented my pre-existing condition of writer’s block. And that lasted a really long time, even though there were things I did along the way that were kind of baby steps. But for the most part, in terms of writing fiction, writing a new novel, I totally shut down.KJ: Yeah, I mean that is exactly what you don't want your agent to say to you. First of all, you don't want your agent to say that and second of all, who says that?Laura: Right, it was unfortunate.KJ: You know, perhaps with the best intentions. I don't know, it’s hard to grant that one. Wow. So, rule number one - no shooting down people’s life work, and saying maybe you should do something else for a while. Now that we've established that, moving on. You may not have been specifically writing a book or working on fiction not shut down creatively. So tell us some of the things you found you could do. And let's just owned that you're time was sucked up by having breast cancer and having your parents as well. This was like all day, every day for a long time.Laura: Right, so it was like “sandwich generation” for many years. What happened was, one of the first things I did was sort of accidentally pivoted to ghostwriting. In 2007 or 2008, I was able to start ghostwriting. And that was something kind of lucky I felt that I had found. I had blogged about a television show I had started watching while I was recuperating from my surgery and then I was contacted by the show's producer and I ended up doing a book for a television matchmaker, which led to a few other projects. That led to some really interesting memoirs that I wrote for people like Wendy Davis and Eddie Azard, who is a British actor and comedian. And those were great projects and that was a great thing to do in terms of earning a living in writing, which was helpful to not have to write my own stuff. It was a relief not to have to come up with ideas for plot or characters, I was just able to use my skills almost like a job.KJ: It's almost as if by using someone else's words you could kind of guarantee that when you sat down there was work. Laura: Exactly. It lowered the pressure.KJ: Whereas if you are relying on yourself and you're feeling blocked, you might sit down and nothing may come out. That must have been terrifying.Laura:Exactly. I was doing that over the years and I think it was 2011 I discovered this platform on the internet called extra-normal. And you could write these little scripts and have these animated characters speak your words. And so I discovered it and thought Oh my God this is the best thing ever, because I would sit down in the morning and just whip out two or three minute scripts that were based on something annoying that happened the day before - either a conversation with my son or couples my husband and I were socializing with, whatever it was there were lots of annoying conversations. And so I would sit down in the morning, whip out a script, and have no writer's block because it wasn't like I was writing a novel.I just sat down, wrote it, and it would take a few minutes to generate the video, and then I would post it on social media. People really loved them. I think I would have still done them if the platform hadn’t shut down back in 2013. But I made 75 of them and I really loved doing them. And I loved that it made writing feel fun again. And then of course, I felt like a failure because I couldn't monetize them. I thought, it's only a matter of time before I have a show with these, but nothing happened. A lot of us feel that if we can't monetize something in some way then we've failed. Or I did, anyway. Then a few years later I tried again and wrote a script from scratch, like a film script, and my agent at the time really loved it and couldn't sell it, and again I felt like a failure. And it wasn't until 2015 that I finally had a break in my writer's block and decided I was going to try to write a novel again. So I went back to that script that was about a couple who couldn’t afford a divorce and had all the same issues that the novel dealt with, but I ok went back to that script, took just a little piece of it and used it to sort of seed the novel. And I went back to some of those old little videos and found little things in there that I used. So in retrospect, nothing that I did was wasted. In fact, they were really useful when I started again. But in the moment I still felt frustrated that I wasn't able to get the flame to catch.KJ: I was waiting to see if Jess might want to weigh in so I wasn't dominating the conversation. Jess: No I'm just listening. I find it fascinating. I always love the idea of you know when I get stuck sometimes and recently I've been stuck on sort of how to move forward with this new thing, so I really have just been going back through David Sedaris's book and my old notes. And so that idea of being able to go back to the script and say well I really like this story why it doesn't necessarily have to exist in this format and finding new inspiration in something you've already put out there. Especially when it's something you've already put out there that didn't come forward in the way you wanted it to. KJ and I talk about this all the time, we both have things in the drawer that didn't see the light of day - some of those I was able to use for articles in magazines. And I love the idea of recycling and repurposing things you love in a new format. I think that's a great way to jump-start yourself out of writer's block.Laura: It was great because I realized I had the script itself and it was sort of a road map, but I had the characters and a few scenes to start with. It was just a great way and if I hadn't done it a few years later I think it would have been so much harder for me to start. Not impossible, but it was such a gift to start with. And that made all the difference.Jess: Actually, can I go back? Since I've never had the writer's block (and I guess it can be described differently for lots of different writers), but for you does that mean literally you sitting there and not having any words to put down on the page? For some people I know it manifests anxiety and panic attacks, authors have described it in lots of different ways. I'm really just curious on a nitty-gritty level how it came about in your life and what it felt like and looked like.Laura: That's a really good question. I think for me it felt like just a total shutdown after that fourth novel. I have had a lot of success - I use that term loosely as we all define success and failure in relative terms. Always really happy with my career and so when the fourth book came it just felt like going very well. There's a certain sense of ambient shame like everyone knows if your book didn't do well, you know and you get filled with this sort of shame. I think it was a lot of that shame and it was also a sense of even if I wrote another book would I be able to sell it and that mushroomed into a complete lack of confidence. And it was interesting because years later around 2015 when I started to be friendly with a group of writers in Harvard Square someone told me about the quotation that Norman Mailer had said about writer's block, which he defined it as a failure of confidence. And something about that when I heard it I realized it really didn't have anything to do with the fact that writers are writing, whether they're good or not, whether they're commercial or not, whether they're literary, they just keep writing. They have confidence. And once I saw it in terms of that and not about my skills, it was about my sense of myself. Then I was somehow able to say I'm going to try again. There was something about taking out the personal and making it more about my lack of confidence. Because I saw all of these other people writing and I thought you know I can write as well as they can. You know less good than some, but maybe better than others - it's all about confidence. Which seems so simple, but I don't know. Jess: I think reading other people’s crappy writing can sometimes be a good jumpstart, too.KJ: So what else did you think shifted in your life to allow - I just want to point out that you had writer's block, you didn’t stop writing . You just stopped writing that. You had fiction block. You had novel block. You had voice block. You didn't have word block. But what moment freed you up again sort of loosely in your life that allowed you to be able to sit down and actually say okay I'm starting again? Were you able to do it that way or did you have to trick yourself into it? Laura: I still had to trick myself. What happened was I was working for a startup in Boston, a wellness app similar to the one described in the book. And I was there for about a year and then I left. It was then that I decided okay the universe has given me some time and maybe now is a really good time to start. I was able to make a little start because I rented a shrink's office by the hour in Harvard Square. I wanted some space and I was ghostwriting a lot and I thought if I could just have a dedicated day that I decide I'm not going to do ghostwriting today - so I went on Craigslist and found an office to rent by the hour, which I did on Mondays. So I would show up, sit in the chair, look at the art on the wall, and some days I would write, and some days I would play Solitaire on my phone. But by the end of a few months I had a #amwriting on Instagram and had gotten to a few pages and I feel like that was the way I really got started.KJ: Did you work on it in between the Mondays? Or was it just like only when you were there?Laura: I really just did at the office at first. After I gave the office up I felt like I had made enough progress in those three or four months, having those 50 pages I felt like I had something. I started something. Then I started to take little trips with a writer friend of mine and we would go away for a few days to work. And I was really able to start to feel like I was onto something. KJ: I love that pieces of the book came and you were able to pull pieces that had been around awhile. Because one of the amazing things about Separation Anxiety is just how funny every detail is. You know, you don't miss an opportunity to drop in some humor. When you talk about the depth of the material but you were working with, I can feel that. So when you sat down to write how much of the funny comes out of you or how much do you put in later? It's a thoughtful and empathetic book, yet also very funny. So it's not like it is just funny - it manages to be funny as well as all the other things. Laura: You know, that’s a really good question, too. Because I know when I sat down to start it I had no interest in writing a really funny novel. And I didn't feel funny at the time. I started writing it before the political situation had changed. But when I really started to really get going on it it took a while. And so by 2017 is when I really started to feel like I was making really good progress. And by that point the world didn’t really feel funny, it felt frightening. And I wanted to be true to that, but I didn’t want to overwhelm the reader with how the world and my world had changed. In the decade that I had stopped writing I had lost my parents and several close friends. And middle-age just felt different. And I also didn't want to write a completely grim book because I don't think that’s necessarily what people want to read either. There had to be space for the light to come in, a kind of feeling of hope. So I was really conscious of just trying to be true to all the parts. I wanted the sad parts to be sad and the funny parts to be really funny. Because they often just really coexist. Maybe at the time that I was going through the most difficult periods of time there may not have been humor in the moment, but looking back it was always really side by side. I remember in some of the saddest times getting an email from my son's school that inspired me to include these people puppets. I just ended up using them in the plot; in reality but they seemed like a potentially funny plot device.KJ: They work with the overarching plot because as someone who writes fiction I've had the problem of a plot device that doesn't match the rest of the book, but this one matched.Laura: And back to your question, in the old days I think I would have just used them as a sight gag and let it go, but this time I understood things differently. I was like each character has to serve a purpose. A bigger purpose here - and what is the purpose? For my message in this book it was like everybody is suffering and struggling. And even when we don't know it, everyone has a story and everyone is really doing the best they can to get through their life and I found that that was the important message I was trying to communicate in this book. Because when I had so many years of struggle, whether it was with my sick parents, or with friends, or my career so many people helped me. I was so grateful for that level of humanity that I really wanted the book to encompass that.KJ: It’s an amazing achievement - there's not a word wasted, there's not a character wasted.Laura: I'm glad you feel like it worked. KJ: It definitely works. The last thing I want to touch on with this writer's block and you not having another novel coming out again is financially how did you handle it? Like how did that affect your writing?Laura: It's a really hard thing. Because on the one hand when you are financially strapped you have the impetus to work because you have to, to hustle every year. So I did that with the ghostwriting, but I was also very lucky in that I had earned a fair amount with my first book and I had been careful with that. And so we were living off that for a while. Every year with the ghostwriting I managed to get a gig that was just enough to get us through. It’s exhausting and that is one of the things taking away from the more creative aspects. We all khow that to write a novel you need to be firing on all cylinders of your brain for that. We all know what that's like. You just have to have that kind of mental energy; so much of it is diverted into stress thinking. It is exhausting and is a really fine line. Part of it helps you churn out words because you have to and the other part depletes you - every year I was just walking that line. Jess: And of course what fills us back up is the reading. So can we talk about what we’ve been reading? I'm excited to talk about mine. Laura: I am behind in my reading, but I'm very excited to read KJ’s book The Chicken Sisters. I also have right in front of me Weather by Jenny Offill. Because I love her Department of Speculation I'm so excited to read Weather.KJ: I have heard that if you liked Department of Speculation then Weather is just the right amount of goodness that she offered up the first time. I haven't read it either yet. I just finished Separation Anxiety and you have been listening to me rave about it and the characters just stuck in my head. As it turns out I could totally handle, it called me and I put down books without hesitation. it was a really fun read. I went to my local bookstore and bought a bunch of things.Laura: Some of them, like Politics and Prose in DC are doing free shipping through the end of March. Jess: Eric Larson’s new book I had been really excited to read for a while. It’s called the Splendid and the Vile. I love Eric Larson and love how he uses historical research and weaves it into this just compelling tale and I’m getting drawn into the world of Churchill and it’s really been delightful, especially since this is an area I’m not particularly expert in. I haven’t read a ton on it. So I’m really loving it, I’m a fan of Eric Larson. And on the flip side of that, I’m reading a book I’m really enjoying, it will be out in May I think. Good Boy: My life in 7 dogs by Jenny Finney Boylan. I have to tell you that there’s a dog on the cover and dogs in the title, but it is not a dog book. It’s hard to describe, but it’s very much about trying to figure out who she is and in conjunction with her dogs. I don’t think you need to be a dog person to love this, I think you need to be a Jenny Finney Boylan fan to love this book. I highly recommend pre-ordering it. And lots of podcasts, I was on the road a lot, but a lot of my speaking gigs have been cancelled and I’ve found myself unexpectedly at home so I’ve been on a podcast deep dive. I have to put a plug in for the Long Form podcast, if you haven’t been listening you have to. A good starting place is episode 378 with Ashley Sea Ford where she gets nitty gritty on money and she talks about figuring out what you’re worth. KJ: If anyone wants a super dopey podcast, guaranteed not to stress you out, I have been listening to Beach to Sandy, Water to Wet, Dramatic Reading of One Star Reviews. Jess: This episode of #AmWriting with Jess and KJ was produced by Andrew Parilla. Our music, aptly titled unemployed Monday was written and performed by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their services because everyone, even creatives should be paid. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at amwriting.substack.com/subscribe
Episode 8: Masculine & Feminine Energy Part One Yin/Yang. Sun/Moon. Day/Night. Masculine & Feminine energy is everywhere in nature including inside of all of humanity. Regardless of how you identify: male, female, trans, binary, non-binary, you have both masculine and feminine energy inside of you. In today's episode we dive into just what masculine and feminine energy is, and how we can heal it both within ourselves as well as in our society. As a culture we are experiencing a deconstructing of the masculine. This has been very difficult for all us regardless of how we feel about the Patriarchy. Why? because what happens on the macro, is happening in the micro. So in every single relationship including the one we have with ourselves, we are undergoing a massive healing of the divine masculine. But how do we handle this? What's the role of the Divine Feminine? And how do we find balance within ourselves? -What masculine and feminine is not. -Toxic masculine and feminine energy. -Victoria's process with balancing masculine energy within. -How to heal masculinity -Using feminine energy to heal culture -Conversation on the cultural views of masculine and femininity -Finding expanders to support your growth Quotes: “I didn't get along with masculine men because I refused to embody my femininity.” -Laura “Feminine energy is internal and masculine energy is eternal.” -Victoria “We need to heal the masculine and feminine sides of ourselves so that we can find balance within.” -Victoria “We need to be more focused on healing masculinity than derailing patriarchy.” -Victoria “We need to be focused on healing the masculine not fight it.” -Victoria “We have a right to stand up and create space to have a voice in a dominant masculine culture. Its our job as woman to stand in our power and say what we need.”-Victoria “Toxic masculinity might not be our fault but its our responsibility to help heal.” -Victoria “You have to feel to heal.” -Victoria “We can step forward and still let others heal.” -Victoria “Wherever you are on the healing journey is the right place for you. Don't compare.” -Laura “Seeing healthy femininity embodied in others allowed me to make peace with my own.” -Laura “You can take aspects of what people are good at and let it expand you.” -Laura Please remember to subscribe, rate, review the podcast on iTunes. Tag us and Share the episode on Instagram tag us at @thegeneratorpodcast let us know what you think. You can email us at thegeneratorpodcast@gmail.com or dm us on Instagram. Share with a friend that you think would be inspired by it. follow us and let us know your thoughts and anything you'd like to hear. You can also check out our website and learn more about our coaching services/and Astrological Readings, and our latest blog posts at the thegeneratorpodcast.online. 10% off an Astrological Reading with Victoria: Go to: https://stephensconsulting.as.me/astrology And use the code GENERATOR Thanks so much for listening!
Welcome to Season 2 Episode 4 of the Creative Business Success Podcast! I'm super excited to introduce you to Laura today. In case you missed the Accelerate Your Creative Biz Summit in spring 2019, Laura was one of the speakers and she had so many fantastic nuggets of wisdom that I knew I needed to have her on the podcast as well. Today, she's going to be giving you her best tips for increasing referrals - aka essentially free advertising! - to get new clients in your creative business. It may not be what you immediately think of, either, so don't miss this one!Here's a cheat sheet of some of the episode highlights:Laura's intro, 1:04Get access to Laura's summit session, 2:12Laura's secret to increasing referrals, 2:59Laura's story of increasing photography referrals, 4:27How client experience helps increase referrals, 7:12Can a neutral client experience decrease referrals? 9:08Client communication is key! 10:32Why you need a standardized client experience, 11:58Do you use your clients' first names? 14:55Do you struggle with email marketing? 16:19Why managing your energy is crucial for referrals, 16:54You can transfer your energy to your clients! 20:23You need to create a referral program, 22:14Be proactive and not reactive in your creative business, 25:20Give memorable client gifts after a project, 27:35Laura's closing thoughts on increasing referrals, 29:42Where to connect with Laura, 33:15Let's dive deeper into a few of these key takeaways...1 | Client experience is crucial to referrals!No matter what kind of creative business you run, a good client experience can make or break when it comes to getting referrals. If someone has a bad client experience, you'll get negative word of mouth, but if they have a so-so client experience, they just won't talk about it at all! As Laura's experience shows, having a stellar client experience can net you dozens or even hundreds of additional referrals than you would get otherwise.You can start with something as simple as addressing your potential clients by name. Do this in email, in person, and when referring to them on social media or to other people. That little bit of personalization can go a long way!Do you provide a fantastic client experience for your customers? If it's not the kind of experience that they HAVE to tell their friends about (and thus send you referrals!), it's time to step up your game and make it outstanding!2 | You need a standardized workflowAgain, no matter what kind of creative business you have, this is key. Without a standardized workflow, it's a lot harder to provide a stellar client experience! You end up scrambling, forgetting things, and letting your clients down. And no one wants that!If you don't have a workflow in place (and hopefully at least partially automated!), Laura and I strongly encourage you to get that set up. If you're a photographer, Laura has workflow guides, email templates, and more in her shop.Bonus tip: if you're an artist, photographer, or designer, I highly recommend Dubsado to help you automate your workflows. It's a tool created for creative entrepreneurs by creative entrepreneurs that helps you with everything from lead capture to invoicing and workflow management. It can be a serious sanity saver!Take a moment to create or update your creative business workflows today! Taking that time now can increase your referrals tenfold down the road.3 | Get a referral program set up!It's easy to think that referrals will be organic and 'just happen.' That's not always how it goes, though! It's always best to JUST ASK. If you don't ask, it's easy for your clients to forget to send you referrals. After all, how often do you remember to leave a review for something you love? Yeah, I usually forget too.By creating an official referral program, you're reminding people to do it and giving them an extra incentive to remember and intentionally send you referrals. Giving great client gifts that they'll use regularly is a great way to build on this, too.If you sell products online, you can even set up an affiliate program, making it even easier for customers to refer new business to you! Here at The Creative Entrepreneurs L.A.B., I use the AffiliateWP plugin to manage my affiliate program for the Thriving Creatives LAB and shop. If you want to create your own affiliate program for your creative business but aren't sure where to start, email me at hello@thecelab.com and I'll share my tips!Simply asking for referrals from happy customers and setting up an official referral program or affiliate program can make a huge difference in increasing your referrals!Want to connect with Laura?You can find her on her website, and on Instagram, Facebook, and Pinterest @lauraleecreative. Don't forget to subscribe to the Creative Business Success Podcast for more episodes and share your biggest takeaways in the comments! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Today I had the pleasure of speaking with Laura Lawrence (@feedthesoulhappy on IG) qualified health and nutrition coach and we spoke all about what it really means to feed the soul happy
Do you even lift? If you don't, that's okay. Neither do we. But anyone can get shredded! In this episode, we talk with petite powerhouse and Spin Sucks Chief Client Officer Laura Petrolino about competitive bodybuilding, hiking, and the nontraditional fashion choices she's making for her upcoming wedding. In this episode we learned: How Laura got involved in competitive sports How she got involved in the NE4000 Her idea for a new clothing line How much she can squat and deadlift How you can get started in competitive bodybuilding Links from the episode: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bqc2didjNY_/?igshid=14rv4mb0pyd31 Want to know more about Laura? You can find her at: Website: https://www.spinsucks.com Twitter: @lkpetrolino This episode of Punch Out With Katie and Kerry is sponsored by Trust Insights. Are you feeling less than confident in your marketing metrics, looking for some help automating your tasks, or wondering what topics are most important to your audience? Using machine learning and artificial intelligence, Trust Insights will help you light up your dark data. Visit trustinsights.ai/punchingout for more information. Punch Out With Katie and Kerry (#PunchOut) is the show that dives deeper into topics you care about. We don't ask the questions everyone else does. We get to the real insights (and the weird hobbies, the guilty pleasures, the secret side hustles...the good stuff)! We find out what really makes your favorite people tick. Punch out with Katie and Kerry! Have a cool hobby or side interest you want to talk about on the show? Let us know: Web: www.punchoutwithus.comEmail: punchoutwithus@gmail.com Hosts: Kerry O’Shea Gorgone (@KerryGorgone) & Katie Robbert (@katierobbert)
Want to make your business remarkable? Today’s guest knows exactly how that’s done. Laura Roeder is the founder and creator of the social media scheduling software company MeetEdgar. I’m really excited to have Laura on the show because I’ve been a massive fan and customer of MeetEdgar for about 4 years now, and have loved the software ever since I began using it. While Laura was president and CEO of the company, she had the pleasure of running a small team in order to fill the need of social media automation for busy business owners, and now that she’s moved into more of a Founder role, her new job consists of getting visible, and making people aware of not only who Edgar is, but what he does, and why so many people want him as a boyfriend! In This Episode Behind the scenes at MeetEdgar and how it came to be Repurposing content is an important concept to grasp Just because you see your stuff doesn’t mean your audience is Why it pays more to be the specialist Why MeetEdgar only has one plan, and why they won’t offer any more How to grow your word of mouth advertising from your customers Don’t be afraid to be remarkable “At the end of the day, we’re a software company” - Laura “There were just so many things that were lacking in the tools out there” - Laura “How much visibility is my content actually getting?” - Jess “No one is watching your social media feed the way that you are” - Laura “You’ve got to be the one who drives that initial conversation” - Jess “Sometimes people are scared to say that they are the specialist” -Jess “I love recurring revenue” - Laura “Word of mouth scales with your customer base” - Laura More Laura www.meetedgar.com Coupon Code: PODCAST The Dotties https://smartleaderssell.com/the-dotties/ More Jess!http://bit.ly/SLSGroup https://jessicalorimer.com/supersize-your-sales https://jessicalorimer.com/list-building-legend Content DisclaimerThe information contained above is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this article, video or audio are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this article, video or audio. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this article, video or audio. Jessica Lorimer disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this article, video or audio.Disclaimer: Some of these links are for products and services offered by the podcast creator
(Dropbox Series Part 1) I am very excited to bring to you a mini series of four episodes in partnership with Dropbox around the topics of creativity and collaboration. As you know on this podcast I interview interesting creatives about the internet, their work, and how to get more done in less time. Dropbox is a collaborative platform for teams, enabling creativity through their product suite of tools which helps team's all over the world stay in flow and move work forward.In these four special episodes, I interview the co-authors of Creative Superpowers, a book published by Penguin about re-learning key traits often forgotten from childhood, such as adaptability, curiosity, empathy and fearlessness by the authors Laura Jordan Bambach, Scott Morrison, Mark Earls and Daniele Fiandaca. Each author shared some fascinating stories and anecdotes with me, and have some seriously wise advice about how to live a more creative and fulfilled life. I felt super inspired after chatting to each of them and I hope you do too.In this episode I speak to Laura Jordan Bambach about how creativity isn't something that happens to you at your desk. How to get good ideas, why you should keep a dream diary, how diversity is still an urgent matter, how to gather all sources of your creativity, and how to not take things too personally as a creative.I liked this quote from Laura: "You didn't get here by accident. That doesn't mean you should be pig-headed, but your ideas have value."*This episode is sponsored by Dropbox* See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Episode 21 features the inspiring Maiden glow of Dr. Laura Ricci . Laura is a licensed doctor of physical therapy specializing in Women's Health and Pelvic Floor Rehabilitation, as well as a certified Women's Health and Functional Nutrition Coach through the Integrative Women’s Health Institute (IWHI). As she continues to study nutritional endocrinology and tangents such as essential oils, Laura's path to becoming a healer by walking through the fire herself is inspiring. Through her own medical challenges, including cancer and major orthopedic surgery; she found a passion for nutrition. From that experience, Laura wrote and taught the Nutrition Pre- and Post- Abdominal and Pelvic Surgery course for the IWHI. She has also been interviewed on multiple online summits, including The Healing Pain Summit and the Chronic Lyme Disease Summit. Make sure to take advantage of the Limited Time WELLNESS BONUS BELOW In this goddess chat ... We discuss how Laura was able to flip several years of pain and turn them into the fuel and resources for a global virtual health coaching practice How she sees treatment, coaching, teaching functional nutrition lectures, and public essential oil education classes fitting in How her Mother's own Mama Guru feminine natured intuition not only saved her life at age two but continues to feed into her intuitive nature now. The cool discovery she made while healing from cancer and other illnesses tied to her mother's voice so long ago. We also speak a lot to the natural power we as women don't take advantage of and how knowing our own boundaries and meeting our shadows as friends can be some of the best medicine we have. The chat finishes with some essential oils talk, how to find her on a computer near you and all the wonderful ways Laura can work with all of us in her global practice. Learn from Laura You can learn more about Laura and her services by visiting her website lauraricci.vpweb.com or emailing her at womenshealthcoach@gmail.com Care to learn more about essential oils? Visit Laura at Her Dr Laura's Essential Oils Education FB page HERE WELLNESS BONUS FOR MY PODCAST LISTENERS..... Join our team as a Wholesale member or a fellow Wellness advocate under the Guru Goddess tribe (Wellness Advocate Number #3980805) by June 31st and get an free diffuser and start up support from me PLUS a year of ongoing tools and shares from Laura's team!
The 300th installment of MuggleCast has arrived! Thank you to our Patreon supporters, who helped us unlock Mega MuggleCast, bringing many of our old friends back on the show! The band is back together… Laura, Matt, Elysa & Mikey B return to celebrate this milestone! You can find Laura, Matt, Elysa, and Andrew on #Millennial podcast. Meanwhile, Mikey hosts Hypable’s Resistance Radio. And a special guest appearance by everyone’s favorite Brit! WAMP WAMP! We learn which Ilvermorny house each host was sorted into! The Cursed Child gets mixed reviews from the larger panel. Who said it?! A Cursed Child character or Original Story character (or Laura)? You might be surprised! The expansion of the Wizarding World: what would we like to see next? Has it gone too far already? Is Pottermore becoming the clearinghouse for all things Potter? Ilvermorny House controversy! We thought those drawings looked awfully familiar! NOT SAFE FOR WORK! We discuss things that definitely happened in the Potter series but JKR didn’t include because they were “kid” novels. Aberforth and his clean goat Severus Scabbers saw quite a bit of Weasley in his day Love potions… as date rape drugs? The prefect’s bathroom… an all-out orgy! Plus Bertha Jorkins & Peter Pettigrew, Polyjuice & puberty, Gilderoy Lockhart and vibrating brooms!
Fertility Friday Radio | Fertility Awareness for Pregnancy and Hormone-free birth control
Laura is a veteran sexual and reproductive health advocate who has worked for and volunteered with Planned Parenthood-affiliated organizations in Canada since 1986. She was a Columnist for Troy Health Media, and she is the new editor-in-chief for Re: Cycling, the blog of the Society for Menstrual Cycle Research. As many of you know, I recently interviewed Holly-Grigg Spall, and in that interview, we spoke about her book Sweetening the Pill or how we got hooked on hormonal birth control. Laura actually wrote the forward to this book, and she has also publicly shown her support for the upcoming documentary that Ricki Lake and Abby Epstein are doing based on the book. And she has also charted her cycles for 27 years. Today we will be talking about the health implications of using the Fertility Awareness Method that go beyond the practical aspects of having a hormone-free method of birth control, why rejecting the pill is actually not "anti-feminist" and why it is important for women to have access to accurate information about all forms of birth control regardless of what method they eventually decide to rely on. Topics discussed in today's episode Is it possible for women to learn to use the Fertility Awareness Method confidently and accurately? Why a "possibly fertile day" is actually a fertile day The role that intention plays in the effectiveness of the Fertility Awareness Method The role that the Fertility Awareness plays in helping women to learn body literacy The implications of placing young women on the hormonal birth control before their menstrual cycles have fully matured The importance of helping women transition off of hormonal contraceptives successfully Why questioning "the pill" is not actually "anti-feminist" The benefits of having the ability to understand and interpret your fertile signs Why the pill doesn't "regulate" a woman's cycle or "mimic pregnancy," and what it is actually doing to your hormones Why Laura has publicly endorsed the upcoming documentary Sweetening The Pill by Ricki Lake and Abby Epstein In this podcast episode, Laura described the hormonal changes that a woman experiences naturally throughout her menstrual cycle, and how that changes when a woman is taking hormonal contraceptives. For reference, here is an image of the hormonal cycle during a healthy menstrual cycle. You'll notice that a woman has high levels of estrogen in the first half of her menstrual cycle before ovulation, and high levels of progesterone in the second half of her cycle after she ovulates. Connect with Laura You can connect with Laura on the Re: Cycling Blog for The Society for Menstrual Cycle Research and on Facebook and Twitter! Resources mentioned re: Cycling | The Society for Menstrual Cycle Research Coming off Depo-Provera Can be a Woman's Worst Nightmare | Laura Wershler Six Things Women Need to Know About Their Fertility | Laura Wershler The Value of Ovulation to a Woman's Health | Laura Wershler Why I'm Backing the Sweetening the Pill Documentary | Laura Wershler Sweetening the Pill: or How We Got Hooked on Hormonal Birth Control | Holly Grigg-Spall Sweetening the Pill Movie - Preview | Youtube Join the community! Find us on the Fertility Friday Facebook Fan Page Music Credit: Intro/Outro music Produced by Sirc of (The Nock)
Show Summary In this episode Leslie interviews Laura about her cynical reaction to the book Essentialism and together they find a way forward into the changes they need to make to dramatically improve Laura’s life. It’s a raw, real look at the mental obstacles that do their best to keep us from our best and what we can do to overcome them. Show Resources Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg Mckeown Calvin & Hobbes Totoro style by Josh Mauser Download the transcript for Episode 11 here. Show Highlights No music today; we are grieving the passing of our friend Sarah, who was taken all too soon by cancer. This is part 2 of the new series best titled: “How The Camachos are Changing Their Lives,” spearheaded by our reading of the book Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less. The problem with the kind of book that is Essentialism, is that it can be discouraging and overwhelming when you are at your breaking point (which is where Laura is definitely at). Apparently the proper pronunciation of Greg McKeown’s last name is “Mick-YONE.” We both got it wrong on-show. Sorry Greg! Laura feels “inspired yet cynical” about this whole process. Leslie gives a brief summary of the first two parts of the book: Part I – Core mindset of Essentialist You have the power of choice You need to practice discernment Assess the tradeoffs between opportunities/problems Part II – Explore Escape – get away and get mental space Look – objectively and critically Play – embrace the wisdom of your inner child Sleep – “protect the asset” Select – give yourself extreme criteria to ID the most important stuff in life Our current work is to create the mental capacity to even be able to explore. Laura wants to point out how incredibly privileged the premise of the book is – that we even have the luxury of deciding how we spend our time rather than just living in hand to mouth survival. She also admits that she doesn’t have as much of that privilege as she would like. Leslie points out that because we have that privilege, we need to honor it by making best use of our excess time and energy. Laura feels like she’s been in survival mode forever, and reading a book that seems to say “It’s your fault that you’re in survival mode; just get your priorities straight!” Laura feels like she has a “vital many” and that the few things that really feed her get trivialized. She doesn’t see how it’s possible to narrow down to a “vital few.” It seems impossible to Laura to find the time and space to enact upon the five things. She mainly gets mad when she hears about sleep being “The option you’re not choosing ‘cause you’re dumb.” As a parent, it’s usually not by choice that you are being awoken throughout the night. “I feel like my whole life is being run by all these other demands.” But Laura doesn’t know how to choose otherwise. If she chooses not to do any of the responsibilities she currently has, either Leslie has to shoulder them (on top of everything else he’s already loaded with) or the whole family suffers. Escape Laura’s escape would look like a month in Italy with one or both of her best friends. “I might not come back at the end of the month.” A more realistic version: Leslie could take over supper and bedtime with the kids twice a week so Laura could leave the house. She would need exercise and mental space. No technology. Play Laura remembers loving playing video games with Leslie, but in this season that type of checking out doesn’t feel right/healthy to her. Laura admits that she hates imaginative play with her kids. But she does feel rewarded by their appreciation when she does engage them in the thing they love the most. Sleep Neither Leslie nor Laura seem to have a solution for this area of their lives. They are trying everything. Probably time is their only ally. Select Laura’s not in a place to think about selection; too much brain fatigue. Laura’s takeaway from her reading is feeling “Defeated and angry.” “It’s all stuff I want to do! But it feels so unattainable that I crash and burn as soon as I start to think about it.” Leslie’s words of hope: “If it was insurmountable, the world would be drastically different. There wouldn’t be a lot of the things we enjoy today if parenthood actually destroyed the majority of people’s lives.” Laura is a leader, and she can’t fire her team. (Plus, they are kinda useless most of the time!) 28:56 – Laura threatens to punch Leslie. Leslie’s main message to Laura: “You’re not alone. Other people have solved these issues. We are going to get you there, too.” The first step is to heal Laura’s mental exhaustion. Leslie’s mandate for Laura: How sad would it be if success for the Camachos meant 4 people thriving and Laura burnt out and miserable? That isn’t success! It’s time to bring Laura up to speed. Every day this week, Laura will be out of the house from 5-7pm. Leaving Leslie to do supper and wind-down with the kids. This means no housework, no errands, no work. Pure Laura time. She needs to be intentional with at least half of it; the other half can be play time. Every morning at 7:30, Leslie and Laura will have a 15-minute Standup meeting to go over the day before and what is up for the current day. What I’m going to do for you Laura offers to not leave Leslie hanging regarding what to feed the kids. Leslie promises to treat Laura like a client – in a good way! Support Glimmering Podcast
Audio File: Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Laura Fitton CEO and Co-founder, OneForty Date: April 25, 2011 NCWIT Entrepreneurial Heroes: Interview with Laura Fitton [musical introduction] Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders, the CEO of NCWIT, the National Center for Women In Information Technology. This is the next interview in a series of interviews we've had with women who have started wonderfully successful tech companies. We're always interested to catch up with our latest entrepreneur and see what she's doing. With me is Larry Nelson, W3W3.com. What's going on at W3W3, Larry? What's the news? Larry Nelson: Well, I'm trying to learn more about Twitter. Other than that, things are going good. We've got a number of business people who tune into the various shows with NCWIT. It's not only business leaders and parents, but also many young women who listen for some great ideas. Lucy: Today we're interviewing someone who is known as the Queen of Twitter, Laura Fitton. I guess that's why you said something about Twitter, isn't it? [laughter] Well, you need to get the number right in your Twitter. Larry: I was just trying to check her out there. Lucy: We're interviewing somebody who is known as the Queen of Twitter, Laura Fitton. Laura Fitton: [laughter] I think Lady Gaga deserves the crown now. Lucy: Lady Gaga! Laura: Once upon a time. Lucy: [laughter] That would be great, maybe we should try to interview Lady Gaga. Any way, Laura is the founder of oneforty.com. Oneforty.com helps people understand Twitter and the exploding ecosystem of applications and services built on it. Oneforty.com has been called the "app store" for Twitter by TechCrunch and others. It's really a place to find awesome tools that really help you use Twitter, not just in ways for yourself but also for your business and so forth. I went and looked at some of the apps there and it just shows how much I need to catch up on the world of Twitter. [laughter] Laura: It's so true. We started out the Consumer App store and quickly learned from our users that they need us to cut through all the noise and provide them with reporting, with solutions to streamline their social business. Oneforty.com is really the place where tool providers, experts, and business leaders are sharing all their advice and lessons learned regarding social business. If your business needs to be getting into social media, this is the place to start. Lucy: Well, Laura, we're really happy you're here today. Maybe you could start off quickly telling us the latest news from oneforty.com. I think it's a place that most of us really need to know about. Laura: Sure! Thank you. In the last four months, we've done a pretty significant pivot, again user-led. We offered people a little thing we called "Toolkits," which were these humble little lists. The idea was, well you're using Twitter online but you're also using it on your phone and a few other places, using a lot of different tools. People came in and said, "Well, here's how to market a car dealership," "Here's how to market a restaurant." Or, "Here's what a realtor needs to know about social media and social business." So we responded to our users like any good startup does. In the last three weeks, we have completely relaunched the site centered around four business personas. All of the directory is still there, but we're really focusing it on connecting people with what they need to streamline and scale social. Lucy: So oneforty.com three weeks ago had a relaunch? That's pretty exciting news. Like I said, the site was just great and I really enjoyed looking at it yesterday. Laura: Thank you so much. The other thing that's new is that I was just on a webinar where I gave a sneak preview of some products that we're just launching that put everything you need for social all in one place-tools, all the workflow, all the guides on what to do next. Kind of training wheels for social engagement, making it really easy. Lucy: So Laura, it's really pretty exciting times at oneforty.com. Thanks very much for telling us all about the new site launch three weeks ago. It's really a great site and we really appreciated taking a look at it earlier this week. One of the things we like to find out from our entrepreneurs is how they first got interested in technology, as well as ask them a follow-up question to that where we ask them to look into their crystal ball regarding which technologies they think are out there that will change things even more? Laura: Awesome. Well I was a kid who was really into science, so I came to technology through science. In fact, my degree is in Environmental Science and Public Policy. I always played around with consumer web technologies, but never got involved in software development or anything like that, quite up until I did the startup. So it was a very odd choice for me, because I'd never seen software built. I knew tons of people in the interactive industry who did build software. I had lots of friends who had invested in it, had worked at startups, had run startups. But I myself had never done it. My connection to startups was that I was kind of a communications consultant. I did a lot of work on helping people to present and speak more effectively. And obviously entrepreneurs are constantly on the hot-seat having to present, so I stayed very close to the startup community but never dove into it myself. Long story short, I moved to Boston in 2006 just in time to have my second kid. They're like 14 or 15 months apart. I've no business network up here and I have to restart that communications consulting firm after nearly two years out of the market. So I get into blogging. I hear about this Twitter thing. I blog how stupid this Twitter thing is, around March 2007. And then two months later, the nickel drops and I say, wait a minute. I can surround myself with successful, interesting people and still be this home-based mom of two kids under two, and yet stay motivated and inspired throughout my workday. And that is exactly what appealed to me about Twitter when Twitter finally did appeal to me. Then I got so emphatic over how so much it was changing my life and how amazing and exciting it was for me that I just ran out there with this blog post called, "Ode to Twitter" on something like August 11, 2007. I mailed it to Guy Kawasaki, who, believe me, had never heard of me. And I just started telling everyone who would listen. To my great luck, Guy Kawasaki did listen and then turned around and trumpeted to the rest of the world. So in this very short time, I went from not even really knowing what the term "web 2.0" means in March 2007 to being profiled by the author of "Naked Conversations," one of the first major books in the space, less than a year later in April 2008. The next month, Wiley is coming to me asking me to write "Twitter for Dummies." I'm relaunching my communications consulting firm as a Twitter for business consulting firm, which was a little insane to do in September 2008. It was still really early on the concept and I'm just incredibly lucky that I staked my career on Twitter and not on one of the competitors like Pounce or Plurk, most of which have dried up or disappeared. I got very excited about a technology, because it made huge personal and professional changes in my life. It's like the classic adage to follow your passion and you can't go wrong. I was still was dragged into it kicking and screaming, though. For four months after having the idea for oneforty.com, I was trying to pawn it off on somebody else. But hey, you go build the startup and I'll advise. I'm smart enough to not do a startup. I know they're kind of hell. I'm in the middle of a divorce and have two very young kids. (They were two and three at the time.) And yet I failed at quitting it. I kept trying to quit it and I kept failing at quitting. So in March 2009 I finally started it up in earnest and it's been two years now. Lucy: You know, your comments kind of lead to our second question. Larry: Boy, I'll say, is that a fact. Here you came into this thing through science. You've been through all the different types of things, you knew you wanted to give it up. But... Lucy: And she tried to not be an entrepreneur. Larry: Yeah, exactly. Laura: I tried so hard. I'd worked for a startup in my 20s and the guy was nuts. [laughter] Laura: I've worked with a lot of entrepreneurs and I love entrepreneurs. You have to be fundamentally out of touch with reality on some level to be an entrepreneur, because otherwise you would know that your idea can't possibly work. You need enough detachment from that to be able to go make it work. Which is great, but boy, it puts you into some weird places, doesn't it? Larry: Boy, I'll say so. What is it about entrepreneurship that makes you tick? Laura: I don't know, because I never thought I was an entrepreneur until this happened. [laughter] I have mad curiosity. I love to see things for myself. One of the people who has been kind enough to mentor me is Tony Hsieh, who is the CEO of Zappos. I won't be able to remember exactly what they were, but he asked me three very simple framing questions when I was kind of whimpering and whimpering and saying that I couldn't possibly be the CEO. It was, "Do you have that natural drive and curiosity?" "Do you want to see things for yourself?" And one other thing. He said, "If you have that, you're good. Everything else, you can learn." Lucy: Zappos is a great company. I just ordered my son four birthday shirts from them. Larry: Oh, all right! [laughter] Laura: That's the [inaudible 9:00] , girl. Tony is a fantastic human being, very generous with what little time he has. Lucy: It sounds like Tony definitely supported you on your way on your career path. Do you have other role models or mentors or other people who influenced you? Laura: I was carried by this net, literally my network. When I first did my angel pitch, there were a few people I knew in the investment community who charitably dialed in to hear it and asked me leading questions to help me understand what I was missing. One of them was Christine Herron, who at the time was with First Round Capital and now is with Intel Capital. She literally had to ask me in my first angel pitch, "Laura, where's the pricing coming from?" And I didn't even know what the word "pricing" meant at that point. [laughter] I was that naive. I tried to answer it. Later another person-again, these were friends because of social networking-Dave McClure was kind enough to take the time to listen to the recording. He asked, "Do you know what Christine was trying to tell you, Laura?" I said candidly, "No." And he explained it to me. So I was carried by this huge network of cheerleaders and supporters and mentors. One of the weird, kind of, "rags-to-riches, Cinderella" aspects of all of this is, I was so completely unknown, and then a year later I was in a book by Seth Godin and I was being mentored by Seth and by Guy Kawasaki and by people whose blogs I'd been reading for a long time and looking up to. And it actually took awhile to come to terms with accepting that. Like I felt guilty. I felt like, why am I getting all this time from all these busy people, there's nothing that special about me, I'm just sort of whatever. And then the way I came to peace with how incredibly generous the world was being with all of this was just like, OK, maybe they see a chance to get something done in the world by helping me get it done. So my responsibility to pay back the debt of all this mentorship is not only to do mentoring when I finally have bandwidth to do it, but to follow through and to make sure I realize the riches I've been given and try to create something with it. So that's been incredibly powerful to keep me going. Lucy: Well, and you know this interview is part of a give back. We have had a lot of people listen to these interviews, we have a social networking campaign with Twitter right now, on this interview series, so we really thank you for being with us and giving some of that advice back. Laura: Thanks. Larry: Well you know with all of the neat things you've done, Laura, what is the toughest thing that you've ever had to do in your career? Laura: That is such a great question. I was going to say that, the days after you run into a wall, because make no illusion, you run into a wall time, time and time again when the start-up [inaudible 11:46] , you fail all the time. Investors flake, co-founders drop out, people you hired don't work out, whatever. It's constantly running into a wall. And the next moment where you have to pick yourself up and dust yourself off, is really painful, it's hard. And just staying calm and.. and one lesson I've learned? Being radically nice to everybody, even if they kind of screwed you over. Because it preserves the relationship and you never know where that relationship leads in the future. That said, I'm very lucky, in that the energy just kept surging back to get through those times. I can't even take ownership of that, it was like being a lightning rod. I would give up, I would go to sleep like, "OK it didn't work, tomorrow I'll figure out something else," and I'd wake up still hell-bent on making it happen. So I was lucky. Lucy: Wow, it's great advice to be radically nice to people, even if you think they screwed you over. [laughs] I mean, it's powerful advice and I think it's advice that you might give to any young person who was thinking about being an entrepreneur. Do you have any other advice that you might tell a young person if they were on this call right now or listening to this interview? Laura: I think it's really important to not discount the most trite, childhood, what-your-mother-tells-you of all, is really be yourself. People told me that. I really struggled growing up, I was not socially well adapted, I was very emotional and kind of out of touch with my colleagues, like had a hard time in elementary school. And everyone was like, "oh just be yourself!" and I'm like "yeah, right." You know, "everybody hates me, I can't be myself." But it is so true that the more I was able to connect with "OK, that is what makes me tick, I'm just going to go with it." I mean, I never set out to think, "I'm going to rave about Twitter for a year and a half and someday it's going to be my job to do that." I just couldn't contain my excitement. So things worked out really well for me. I was very lucky. Larry: You know, with all the things that you've been through, in your childhood, preschool and everything else, what are the personal characteristics that really give you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Laura: Definitely resilience. Some of the greatest gifts that I've been given in life were times that frankly sucked. I won't trot them all out, but... a couple tough things here and there. A couple really scary things that ended really well, like a premature baby and a very minor stroke, and things like that. But those are huge gifts and I don't think people see them in the moment when they're first happening. Again, I want to fall back to the trite, "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger," but there is huge, huge, huge silver lining in every negative thing that happens to you. Even if it's just making up a story in your head like "hey, that felt really terrible but I actually just dodged a bullet, because it could have been this," and I look back at the tough times and I am so grateful for every single one of them. I'm sad for the places where something terrible happened and it made other people sad, but I'm so grateful for how much strength they gave me and how much ability to bounce back and how much calm they gave me. I would not give up a single one of them. Lucy: That's just wonderful advice. That's so true of life in general, right? Being able to learn from tough times. Laura: Yeah. Lucy: And really integrate that into how you're looking at situations. Laura: I really do just straight-up cherish some of them. Lucy: Yeah, I think personally I had some in my corporate career that ultimately led to me coming here and doing what we're doing now with MC Wit, and it's just kind of interesting when you look back and thing "gosh, if that hadn't happened I wouldn't be here." Larry: Yep. You bet. Laura: Right! Lucy: It's totally the case. Laura: You know one of the more bizarre things I did was when I was about 26 or 27 I kind of more or less adopted one of my nieces. Who was, you know, "go and live with your aunt for the fun of it," right? So she had a couple things. And my mom was so, like, almost mad at me. She thought I was crazy to do it. But it was huge, I got so much more out of that experience than I put into it. A lot of growing up, a lot of taking responsibility, a lot of learning about how radically permanent love for a child is, because she really was functionally my daughter for three years, when she was 15, 16 and 17. And I remember thinking, "oh how hard can it be?" And wow, it was really hard. You know, being a teenager is tough, and being a teenager who's had a crappy run-in up to there was tough, too. But it took me out of my shell, it made me connect to people in new ways, my career catapulted because I had to get my act together. And I just love her so much, it was just incredible, it taught me a lot. Lucy: Well and that kind of gets to our next question we were talking some about, sometimes people say "oh, you should have balance between your work and your personal life," and how do you bring balance. We've talked to people about it really being an integration, and we're just curious to get your point of view on this issue of work- life balance and how you achieve it? Laura: It's tough and I don't think I'm super good at it. Yeah, not enough. I try to be really present with my kids when I'm not working. I would really love to bike commute more often, because it's about a nine mile, very flat, ride, very easy, takes the same amount of time the train does but forces me to exercise. And I think that's really important in managing the stress. Again, in a twisted way, I'm lucky that I'm divorced, because my ex is a fantastic dad, and he and his fiance are a great family for my girls in the 50 percent of the time I don't have them. I use that 50 percent of the time I don't have them to do all the extremes like, stay up late and work, or travel, or the different things you have to do to do a start-up. And I think that it would be tough if it was an intact marriage, and I didn't have that really clear-cut line of "OK, you are not a mommy right now." Yeah, of course I call them and stuff like that. But I'm not functionally needing to be there for them. And being more present when I am there with them. Larry: My goodness, I must say that you have really done a great deal, you've achieved a lot. What's next for you? What's on the horizon? Larry: You know, I don't think you ever feel like you've achieved a lot. I always feel just like, "oh crap, what's next? Oh my god, we've got to surmount this, we've got to surmount that." It's not like our company's profitable. It's not like we have a billion users. And I think if you asked everybody along wherever they are in the entrepreneurial process, they'd probably talk a lot more about what's yet to come than about what they feel they've achieved. So there's a ton of professional development I want to do, a lot of skills I want to improve upon and learn. I have this little fantasy about joining a team in the future where I'm a relatively junior part and I can really stretch and grow and learn from others who are just the best at what they do. I still don't have very much management experience, I never had an employee before oneforty.com, and so that means it's been really tough for me and for my employees to learn how to manage on the fly, learn all about software on the fly, learn all about business on the fly. And I just feel like I have so much more growing to do. Lucy: Well we have no doubt that oneforty.com is headed towards great success. Laura: Thank you very much. Lucy: We really do thank you and wish you the best of luck. So I want to remind listeners that they can find us at w3w3.com and also mcwit.org and to tell their friends this is a great interview, and to go visit oneforty.com and learn more about how to use Twitter. I know Larry's going there! Larry: I'm going to oneforty.com . Lucy: I saw him underline "Twitter for Dummies." [laughter] Laura: It's tough, right, I can't really give out my book as a gift because it's a bit insulting, isn't it? Thank you so much for the opportunity, such a salute out to, it shouldn't matter, but to the women in technology who are my heroes. Because it is inspiring to see, you know, Padmasree Warrior as the CEO of Cisco, Kara Swisher just tearing it up in tech journalism, Katarina [inaudible 19:01] , one of the first social media founders of a company. Rash [inaudible 19:12] is running slideshare.net, Marissa Meyer who's done phenomenal things at Google. It shouldn't matter whether, you know, I'm inspired by lots of men, too, but it really does mean a lot and I'm just so grateful for all of them and their work. Lucy: Well thank you, and I know people are really going to enjoy this interview. Larry: Yeah, thank you. Laura: Thank you. Lucy: All right, bye Laura. Laura: Take care, bye bye. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Laura FittonInterview Summary: Once upon a time known as "Queen" of Twitter, Twitter's own mom-at-home to tech CEO Cinderella Story is CEO/Founder of www.oneforty.com and co-author of Twitter for Dummies. You can read her story in the Boston Globe, on Xconomy.com or watch her Mixergy interview. Release Date: April 25, 2011Interview Subject: Laura FrittonInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 20:12
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