Podcasts about laura you

Patrick explains the significance of “the Upper Room” where Jesus shared a final meal with his disciples and instituted the Eucharist. (01:09 Ben - How do I know if I am being scrupulous? (07:09) Teresa - My brother left the Catholic Church a long time ago. What can I say to help my brother come back? (17:18) The Holy Father invites us to pray and fast for peace (27:23) Carlos - Are you ok with getting Labubu Dolls for your kids? I am concerned they are based off of demonic dolls. (30:25) Cindy - Listening to Relevant Radio for the last 2 years has been a real blessing and a great way for me to grow in my faith. (32:56) Rich - I believe that our youth are taught that they are all transphobic if they refuse to date trans people (42:59) Laura - You really helped me to cut my YouTube addiction. Now I am listening to Relevant Radio. (45:06)

In this heartfelt and incredibly helpful episode, Rebecca welcomes her dear friend Laura Brann to tackle one of the most emotional and logistical challenges for parents—sending your child off to college. Laura, a seasoned mom of three and an expert event organizer, shares her wisdom on everything from packing the right dorm supplies to navigating the emotional rollercoaster of drop-off day. With warmth, humor, and hard-earned insight, Laura opens up about what she learned from sending two of her children off to school—and what she'll do differently with her third.

In this heartfelt and incredibly helpful episode, Rebecca welcomes her dear friend Laura Brann to tackle one of the most emotional and logistical challenges for parents—sending your child off to college. Laura, a seasoned mom of three and an expert event organizer, shares her wisdom on everything from packing the right dorm supplies to navigating the emotional rollercoaster of drop-off day. With warmth, humor, and hard-earned insight, Laura opens up about what she learned from sending two of her children off to school—and what she'll do differently with her third.

Laura Howe is your favourite international jet-setting divorcée! Originally from the US, Laura moved to Lausanne, Switzerland, as soon as the ink on her dissolution of marriage decree was finalized. From there, she spent the next few years moving around the world–from Switzerland to Tokyo, Japan, and back to Switzerland, all with her cat, Minnie.As the pandemic hit, Laura quit her high-powered job to finally address “what happened” during her marriage and how to build the life she always wanted. Laura is the founder of Dispatched Divorcée, a global community to help women build, define, and thrive in their lives after divorce by providing the resources she wished she had when she went through it. She is fiercely motivated to make sure that no woman feels as lonely and lost as she did.Here we talk all about divorce, advice if you're thinking of leaving a relationship, cocktails and embracing the Hot Mess phase!In this conversation, Laura mentions the following books:Animal Instinct by Amy ShearnAnatomy of Love - Helen FisherIf you want to see THE passport photo, read the post about Laura's divorce anniversary: The Day I Got DivorcedHang out with Laura:You can subscribe The Diary of a Dispatched Divorcée, a newsletter about the people you meet while experiencing the world and building a business outside the US. Find Laura on Instagram at @cheekylamiki.There might be the odd swear word in this one, so listen with headphones if there are littles around or you're in the office!

About the Guest(s): Dr. Kristin Hieshetter is a distinguished expert in functional health, with years of professional practice in improving patient outcomes through innovative approaches to wellness. Dr. Laura is a passionate advocate for brain health and a seasoned practitioner in functional medicine. Both guests bring profound insight into optimizing human health by addressing root causes of chronic conditions. Episode Summary: In this eye-opening episode of Functional Health Radio, Dr. Kristin Hieshetter and Dr. Laura delve deeply into the troubling trends in U.S. life expectancy and the rising prevalence of chronic diseases among children. The discussion begins with a stark statistic: for the first time in recorded history, the U.S. life expectancy has declined, prompting a thorough analysis of how modern healthcare practices are failing to halt conditions like heart disease and cancer. The episode offers a roadmap to harnessing the body's incredible potential through functional health principles. This episode intricately explores genetic factors, specifically focusing on the MTHFR SNP and its role in metabolism and health. Dr. Laura shares critical insights on how these genetic factors affect her son, Laird, who has a complex profile including the COMT gene. Detailed recommendations for specific dietary changes and supplementations, like Omega-3 fatty acids and curcumin, highlight the power of tailored health interventions. The episode is rich with actionable advice for parents and healthcare practitioners interested in functional medicine's potential to address neurodegenerative disorders. Key Takeaways: The U.S. is witnessing a significant decline in life expectancy, particularly concerning due to rising chronic disease rates in children. Genetic variations such as the MTHFR and COMT mutations can significantly impact health, underscoring the need for personalized healthcare approaches. Functional health emphasizes the importance of diet and high-quality supplements like Omega-3s, melatonin, and curcumin for brain health. Testing inflammatory markers such as C-reactive protein (CRP) is crucial in managing and optimizing health outcomes in chronic conditions. The episode provides a day-in-the-life insight into managing the health of a child with a neurodegenerative condition through diet and specific nutraceutical protocols. Notable Quotes: "We are no better at healing heart disease and cancer than we were in the 1950s." - Dr. Kristin Hieshetter "Melatonin is the next vitamin D. It's not just the sleep hormone. It's a potent brain antioxidant." - Dr. Laura "You can't do that if you don't fill in the gaps in your diet. So take your supplements or you're not playing sports." - Dr. Kristin Hieshetter "Anytime we can get one more target, that to me, is just one more way to help a child." - Dr. Laura "Inflammation is my jam and brain health is my jam." - Dr. Laura Resources: CDC Vital Statistics Report - Data source on U.S. life expectancy trends. PubMed - Resource for research articles. Functional Health Mastery Group Linda Mood Bell Learning Processes - Education programs mentioned for multi-sensory learning. Stay tuned for more transformative insights from Functional Health Radio, where healthcare meets cutting-edge science to empower listeners towards better health outcomes. Don't miss this thought-provoking episode that covers groundbreaking strategies in functional health.

In this episode of The Care Ministry Podcast, Laura sits down with Shannon Pugh, care pastor at Irving Bible Church, to explore the intentionality behind effective pastoral care. Shannon shares her journey from special needs ministry to leading a cohesive care strategy that spans benevolence, mental health support, and more. The conversation touches on the challenges of addressing diverse needs within the church, the importance of boundaries in care ministry, and innovative ways to connect with and support those in need. This episode offers practical insights and encouragement for ministry leaders striving to build communities of hope and purpose. Quotes "Caregiving is a gift, but it's also a responsibility that can deeply impact us if we don't take the time to reflect, debrief, and seek support." — Laura "You've got to get to where you trust God to fix problems because, in care ministry, your entire job is for people to come to you with their problems and ask for help." — Shannon Pugh "Pastors go wide; deacons go deep." — Shannon Pugh "If someone tells one person, that should be the only person they have to tell. There should then be a pipeline." — Shannon Pugh "We need to know our lane. Otherwise, we're spread too thin and not partnering with anyone well." — Shannon Pugh Resources Care Ministry Cohort Episode 41 | The Care Ministry Cohort Connect with Hope Made Strong Website: HopeMadeStrong.org Socials: Facebook – Instagram – Twitter – YouTube

It's our weekly round up! The best of the week from our National radio show THE PICKUP. Today's ep is unlike anything we have had to record before and are heartbroken by the decision that has been made for the show. Every week we are joined by our radio co-host Mitch Churi at 3pm on the KIIS Network. You can listen live on iHeart radio, or catch up here each week!For more follow @THEPICKUP on socials. What's on the show Mitch has learnt a something new late in life What did you eat Can you name your child a dog name? Our uber ratings exposed Marlie is breaking up with Laura You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's our weekly round up! The best of the week from our National radio show THE PICKUP. Today's ep is unlike anything we have had to record before and are heartbroken by the decision that has been made for the show.  Every week we are joined by our radio co-host Mitch Churi at 3pm on the KIIS Network. You can listen live on iHeart radio, or catch up here each week!For more follow @THEPICKUP on socials. What's on the show Mitch has learnt a something new late in life What did you eat Can you name your child a dog name? Our uber ratings exposed Marlie is breaking up with Laura You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktokSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Last week I introduced you to a wonderful guest who is helping us all connect to our divinity. Her name was Emma Rowena. Today I have a very special treat for us. I am going to read a few passages from her book, You. Me. And All That We Are. Meditation Coaching Schedule Time with Thom (Complimentary consultation)   Connecting with Laura: You. Me. And All That We Are on Amazon   Become a Super-Fan of the Show Support ZEN commuter and get access to patron bonuses THANKS FOR LISTENING! Thanks again for listening to the show! If it has helped you in any way, please share it using the social media buttons you see on the page. Also, reviews for the podcast on iTunes are extremely helpful, they help it reach a wider audience.  The more positive reviews the higher in the rankings it goes.  Of course that means more peace in the world.  So please let me know what you think.  I read ever one of them. Did you enjoy the podcast?

Is sobriety an all-or-nothing proposition in dentistry? In today's Monday Morning Episode, we've brought on Laura Nelson to uncover the nuanced conversation around alcohol use in the dental industry. Laura challenges the common perception that only those classified as "alcoholics" need to consider sobriety. Through personal insights, she stresses the importance of making conscious, sober decisions and explains how even social drinking can impact professional performance and practice culture. Dive deep into the pressures dentists face that often push them towards alcohol, and learn why open conversations about this topic need to happen more frequently and with less stigma.As the discussion unfolds, Laura passionately advocates for a supportive work environment, highlighting how unaddressed stress can erode a team's ability to thrive. She sheds light on the critical role leadership plays in maintaining mental well-being by demonstrating vulnerability. By setting the stage for honest, stigma-free dialogues, leaders can foster a space that encourages healthier lifestyle choices. The episode wraps up with actionable insights, including how individuals can connect with Laura and her community at Sober Life Rocks, to access peer support and resources for alcohol-related challenges.What You'll Learn in This Episode:Understanding the spectrum of alcohol use beyond alcoholism.The impact of alcohol use on dental practice culture and performance.How to cultivate a supportive environment for discussing mental health.The role of leadership vulnerability in promoting workplace well-being.Strategies for addressing stress and burnout in the dental industry.Ways to engage with communities focused on sober living.Tune in to uncover empowering perspectives that can redefine your approach to sobriety and well-being in dentistry!‍‍Sponsors:‍CareStack: Modern, Secure, Cloud-Based Dental Software for Growing Your Practice! With state-of-the-art features including Online Appointments, Integrated Payments, Text Reminders and more. Click the link here for a special offer: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/carestack/‍You can reach out to Laura Nelson here:Website: https://soberliferocks.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/soberliferocksprofessionalsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/soberliferocksdental/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@soberliferocks‍Mentions and Links: ‍People:Dr. Brett Kessler‍If you want your questions answered on Monday Morning Episodes, ask me on these platforms:My Newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/The Dental Marketer Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2031814726927041‍Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)‍Michael: Hey, Laura. So talk to us. What's one piece of advice you can give us this Monday morning. Laura: You don't have to be an alcoholic to stop drinking. Michael: Interesting. Can you expand a little bit more on that? Laura: Yes, for sure. I was one who was the typical casual drinker through my life, conferences, events, mommy wine culture, growing up, the whole thing.And couldn't see life without alcohol because I thought to stop drinking, first of all, I wouldn't have fun. Second of all, I had to hit rock bottom. Like I would, didn't consider myself an alcoholic. And I think there's a lot of people who are in that same space that I was in. But I wasn't educated in this area, and so it's important for me to talk about this because I want to make a difference in dental because there's a lot of people who choose not to drink, who feel the pressure to drink alcohol, and don't realize that you can choose not to drink, and it's okay.We can normalize sober choices in our industry. So. Alcoholism is not a yes or no. it's a spectrum. And if we understand wherever you are on the spectrum, it's your decision, what you want to do with your life and it's everybody else's decision. And we need to stop peer pressuring each other into the need to drink alcohol.Michael: Interesting. So on the spectrum here, where do you kind of see most in the industry as far as when it comes to like events and things like that? Laura: Sure. Yeah. So, Alcohol use disorder, if you've ever drank for the wrong reason, drank too much, or woke up in the morning and regretted drinking, you are on the spectrum, because alcohol is an addictive substance and it doesn't usually serve us well.long term, right? So if you ever regretted drinking at any point or drink for the wrong reason, you're on the spectrum. Now, where is everybody in our industry all over? But the thing about alcohol is it is the number one self prescribed way to celebrate or numb feelings or emotions.And it is the most standardized use of drugs that we use our life. we celebrate with wine, we go out for champagne, we have beer tours, we go on wine tours, we go to conferences, it's all about alcohol. So it's so prevalent in our life that when somebody is questioning their use their,relationship with alcohol, or they're at events and they feel the pressure to drink, that's where it goes too far in the spectrum where we're really pushing in on each other.So, In our industry specifically we have an issue in the sense that we have lots of people who are licensed professionals who worry about their license who Have a lot of stress in their lives running practices and alcohol is where we tend to lean When we're dealing with the hard stuff and so, you know, I would say for that regard.There's probably a few who are secretly having the discussion in their head, based off of what they have in their life Michael: What psychological barriers do you think prevent? Practice owners or dentists from admitting to or seeking help alcohol use as a coping mechanism And how can leaders effectively dismantle those barriers?Laura: Yeah So the number one reason isas a society for a long time, it's been something that you hide if you have concerns about your relationship with an addictive substance, with alcohol specifically, in the past, there was a stigma around if you were in recoveryit was real, but it's not like that anymore, Overcoming an addiction, especially with alcohol, it is a personal battle that many people do privately, and we're already shaming ourselves enough when you are like, I don't understand why other people can drink and don't have a problem, but I do, and it's already something you're beating yourself up about.And then as a society and in our industry and with people in our circle. there's the shame of like, what are people going to think about me? What are people going to question? and so it's just, prevalent and everywhere. it's such a personal decision and conversation and a lot has to do with the shame around it and the fear.Michael: Okay. So then when it comes to that, especially when it comes to the burnout and stress and your experience, how does unaddressed stress and burnout. Silently erode the culture and performance of a practice over time. Laura: Oh, the fact that we can and we do go to other ways to forget about or numb the bad stuff Doesn't have us deal with the actual issue at hand. So stress depression suicidal thoughts Yeah. you know, All of the things that we deal with as humans, because at the end of the day, whether you're a dentist, a hygienist or a receptionist, you're human. And if we are using a substance to numb the pain, what ultimately happens is we're not dealing with the true issue and we're not dealing with the real emotion.And because we're numbing the pain with a substance that is addictive. Everybody will get addicted to alcohol at one point or another. When do you get addicted? Depends on so many variables. But when we know that we're leaning in to using the alcohol for the wrong reason and not actually dealing with the true stuff going on, that's when it becomes a problem.Michael: What would be using alcohol for the right reason then? Laura: well, To be honest I could sit on a soapbox now and tell you how alcohol is not good for us, but there are people who are in their head right now, they're like, Oh gosh Laura's, reading my mind, right?Having a glass of champagne to celebrate a wedding, you know, having a one glass of wine with a friend, once in a while, alcohol is it's been in our society forever. It's not going away. But if you start with one and now you're, instead of one glass of wine, you're a bottle of wine.Instead of one glass of champagne, you did drinks before you went to the wedding and at the wedding, and then you're post drinking, like there's lots of, we all have stories, right? But research shows the first 20 minutes of alcohol is fun. The first 20 minutes of alcohol, you have the endorphins, you have the dopamine.It's great. But then your body suffers for the next two to three hours. if you're drinking for the 20 minutes and you recognize the next two to three hours and your body is recovering from every glass of alcohol that you have, right? So I could talk about where alcohol is not actually serving you.But if you're using it to numb the pain, if you're using it to get away from true emotions, then that's where I would question why you're drinking the alcohol. Michael: Yeah. Cause I've always understood it in the sense of nutrition, right? Protein is, one gram is four carbs. One gram is four fats.One gram is nine calories, right? But alcohol, one gram is seven and our body doesn't utilize it, right? It doesn't need it for any building blocks or anything like that. So we're just literally poisoning our body, uh, to the sense of that But now we're talking about the psychological part and mental health part, which is increasingly important.Laura: Now, when it comes to this, What are the long term psychological and cultural implications, maybe in a practice that ignores mental health issues, particularly around burnout and depression? Alcohol use. not to get extreme, but we know suicide is a significant issue in our industry.Depression is a significant issue in our industry. And alcohol is usually tied to, a lot of the problems that people have. And soWhen you're suffering, people have a glass of wine when you're upset, let's have a drink.Let's meet over the bar and talk about it and have a drink. And so it's just that it's used so much, and that it's pushed so much. It's just our societal norm to lean into alcohol. I mean, I went to the doctor recently and he's like, how much are you drinking before I stopped? And, I told him what I was drinking.He's like, that's normal. That's not normal. Like we shouldn't normalize that alcohol is our friend. And so when it comes to the stress in the practice, the realities of what's going on, we need to recognize that that is an issue in itself, working on the depression, the stress, the financial issues, your relationships, your whatever it is.if you're band aiding it with alcohol, using that as the crutch to get through life, that is the problem, and the longer you do that, the higher chance you have of bigger problems in the long run. Michael: Interesting. So then how do you ensure. That discussions about alcohol use in the workplace go beyond surface level awareness and truly shift the mindset and behaviors of your team and leaders.Laura: Yep. My bandwagon, my thing I talk about is alcohol others. It's, suicidal thoughts. It's depression. It's divorce. It's financial problems. Like we all have life things. We all have our own dark places, whatever it is. What we need to build and can build is an environment where people can just be okay with what they have.we know our own secrets. We know what's going on in our head. We know the things that have happened in our life, the things we've done. And we always compare the worstof us to the best of other people. Right. The Instagram side of what other people are.If we could actually just build an environment, build a team where people can just have the space to be okay, to communicate their issue, to be allowed to feel, we are humans, you know, no matter who's on your team, we all have real things going on. And if you can build a space that it's okay to Be transparent, be vulnerable and allow somebody to be able to talk about their thing, whatever it is.And so like for me with alcohol, my whole goal in this conversation is just to get people talking. Because if we can't get people talking, we're not going to help people. And so normalizing the okayness to talk about whatever your issue is. Find people who have dealt with what you're dealing with and lean into that because The more we can fill the gap between people who need help and the people who can give help By getting rid of that gap of shame and fear and allowing people to just be vulnerable and be real will change lives and change your practice Michael: Yeah, I agree getting people to talk about it is huge, then I feel like there's that fact of like vulnerability, especially if you're a leader.So I guess, in addressing alcohol use and burnout, do you balance vulnerability and leadership strength, especially when,you may be struggling with similar issues Laura: as a leader. Your team is going to follow you if you set examples, right? So being vulnerable is a completely agreat leadership skill to be able to say, I don't know.Now, I'm not saying that as a doctor, you need to tell everything going on in your private life and in your brain and all of the stress that you have, but To be vulnerable with your team to say, you know, I have some mental health issues. I have some personal concerns I'm dealing with. I have some things and be real with your team.They're going to respect you follow you that much more than trying to fake. that you have it all together because nobody has it all together. And then going and getting the help that you need. Like again, when you can lean into getting help, you can see how it improves in your life as a doctor and as a leaderand then be able to offer that to your team, talk about turnover that we have if your team knows that you really trust and believe in them and you're vulnerable and you're real and you care about them, they're not going anywhere, They're going to be on your team forever.So just be real. It's all we really want. Michael: Yeah. And so that shows strength. Okay. Gotcha. So then, in your work, Laura, how have you seen unresolved personal struggles with alcohol among dentists affect their ability to deliver patient care and are there any interventions or what interventions have proven most effective in these situations?Laura: Yeah, the reality is when I started this journey of sharing my storymy story is a little bit easier than a dentist and a hygienist, cause I'm not licensed. So I can stand on the mountaintops and say, I'm happy to be sober. And this is why I chose it for my life. but for a dentist, there's a real reality of, your team.Your license your patients. And so, the reality is there's a lot of licensed professionals in our industry struggling, struggling with mental health issues, struggling with addiction issues, and they're not getting the help they need. I actually have a hygienist that I'm affiliated with. she was more worried about losing her hygiene license than she was about getting a DUI when she was actively drinking because.That's her livelihood. Many team members are dentists. We know that they're suffering and that's our livelihood. If our dentist has to go to recovery or rehabilitation or, take time out of the practice, what about our jobs? Right. And so it's the reality of what's going on. Luckily I've become really good friends with the incoming ADA president, Brett Kessler, Dr.Kessler, who that is what he wants to change for our industry isto allow and have support for. Licensed professionals. They're bringing in a third party company where you can actually call and get help. You can have real conversations because our jobs are our jobs, but our life is way more important, right?So I'm hoping that the worst cases that I know and the things I've seen, we can make a difference by just starting the conversation. Michael: Awesome. Laura, thank you so much for your time. And if anyone has further questions, you can definitely find her on the dental marketer Facebook group, or where can they reach out to you directly?Laura: Sober life rocks that is our new Community and group sober life rocks find me on all the social channels or just come to our website sober life rocks Michael: Awesome. So that's going to be in the show notes below and laura Thank you so much for being with me on this monday morning episode.Laura: Thank you

Last week I introduced you to a wonderful guest who is helping us all connect to our divinity. Her name was Emma Rowena. Today I have a very special treat for us. I am going to read a few passages from her book, You. Me. And All That We Are. Meditation Coaching Schedule Time with Thom (Complimentary consultation)   Connecting with Laura: You. Me. And All That We Are on Amazon   Become a Super-Fan of the Show Support ZEN commuter and get access to patron bonuses THANKS FOR LISTENING! Thanks again for listening to the show! If it has helped you in any way, please share it using the social media buttons you see on the page. Also, reviews for the podcast on iTunes are extremely helpful, they help it reach a wider audience.  The more positive reviews the higher in the rankings it goes.  Of course that means more peace in the world.  So please let me know what you think.  I read ever one of them. Did you enjoy the podcast?

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit laurathomas.substack.comOne of the things that came out of the 2023 Reader Survey was that you wanted a Q+A/AMA of the pod. So we're giving it a shot. Now our monthly pod schedule will consist of 1-2 guest episodes a month, with 1 Q+A with myself and Lucy. Guest episodes will be free for everyone to listen to, with the Q+A episodes being a perk for paid subscribers. In these episodes, we'll be answering the more juicer questions… and the answers may be a little on the spicy side! We're sharing a trailer of today's episode with free subscribers to give you a taste of what you can expect. And we'll always make sure there's something in there for everyone - whether you're a parent or a nutrition student, or just here for rice cake drama (IYKYK).Today I'm joined by CIHAS audio engineer and host of the podcast , Dearlove, to answer listener and reader questions. Tune in to hear us:* Revive and old classic (DSMG fans, this one's for you!)* Share non-lame-gym-bro snack ideas for pre/post workout* Explain why a certain gut health shot is a lot like a bad night out* Talking about why it's important to be calm in the face of a new medical diagnosis rather than falling into diet culture* Offering some advice towards handling the challenges of co-parenting with someone whose views on diet culture are very different from your own* And lastly, why you should ignore influencers who boast about their kids eating stilton and sushiAgain paid subscribers can set up their own private RSS feed to listen to paid-only episodes in their favourite podcast player by following these instructions.This was a super fun episode to create and I know you'll love it too!Find out more about Lucy here.Follow her on Instagram here and here.Follow here on Substack Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.TranscriptLaura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast, where we talk about food, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas. I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter.Lucy: And I'm . I am the audio engineer for CIHAS podcast normally, and I also host the food podcast, . Uh, I'm delighted to be joining you for this, Laura. This is really fun.Laura: So we're mixing it up a little bit today to answer some listener questions that you all sent in. I've asked Lucy to join me so that I'm not just sat here talking to myself, but Lucy, I actually have a little surprise for you that I didn't tell you about. So I'm putting you on the spot, but don't worry, It's hopefully a fun surprise. It's not high stakes. But I don't know if you know, but I used to have another podcast called Don't Salt My Game. And at the beginning…Lucy: I'm aware of it.Laura: Oh yeah, you've heard of it. Okay, that's good. That's a good start. At the beginning of every episode, I used to ask my guests some quick fire questions. So I'm just like, rapid speed, throw them out and justLucy: I remember this.Laura: Just throw whatever comes to the top of your head, okay? So it's meant to be fun.Lucy: Okay, I'm on the spot. I'm in the hot seat. I'm ready.Laura: You ready? Alright. Here we go. Tacos or pizza?

Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast. This week I'm talking to specialist diabetes dietitian Erin Phillips about all things insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. Erin shares some background on what happens in the body that leads to type 2 diabetes, why ‘prediabetes' is a dubious diagnosis and the things the keto-bros often leave out this conversation. We talk about why sugar and higher weight aren't the cause of type 2 diabetes, and how there is so much more we can do to care for diabetes outside of cutting carbs and losing weight, especially if you have a background of an ED or disordered eating. Lots of you have requested more content around this topic - let me know what questions you still have after listening to this episode!Find out more about Erin's work here.Follow her on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTROErin: I think sometimes a diagnosis of prediabetes or type 2 diabetes can be a traumatic event, especially when it's not in the presence of someone caring and that you trust. Or especially if you have a family history of diabetes where you've seen…maybe some scary things. Which I will – now that I said that – I will add that it's, that's not a definite outcome either, those scary things, yeah.But it can be, that can be really stressful, and that's the opposite of what is helpful for blood sugars.Laura: Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast where we talk about appetite, bodies and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter.Today's guest is registered dietitian Erin Phillips. Erin's work is grounded in health at every size and fat positive nutrition. She has an advanced certification as a diabetes specialist and has spent most of her career working with people living with all types of diabetes. She has a private practice that focuses primarily on the intersection of diabetes and eating disorders. She works with people living with diabetes through individual counselling, as well as providing consultation to clinicians looking to be more grounded and confident in supporting their clients and patients with co-occurring diagnoses of diabetes and eating disorders. So I've had a lot of feedback from newsletter readers and people who listen to the podcast saying that you'd like more information about weight-inclusive approaches to so-called prediabetes – which we'll get into in a minute – insulin resistance and elevated glucose levels as well as type 2 diabetes. Most of the advice out there centers on carbs. So I was excited to talk to Erin about why these approaches are not only unhelpful for a lot of folks, but how they can be harmful. And why you don't need to get sucked into diet culture to care for yourself. In this episode, we discuss why type 2 diabetes isn't caused by too much sugar or having a bigger body, why pre-diabetes is a fake diagnosis, and why you don't need to cut out carbs to manage your blood sugar. I'm so excited for you to hear this episode. But before we get to Erin, I want to remind you that the Can I Have Another Snack? universe is entirely listener and reader supported. If you get something out of the work that we do here, please help support us by becoming a paid subscriber. It's £5 a month or £50 for the year. And as well as getting you loads of cool perks, you help guarantee the sustainability of this newsletter, have a say in the work that we do here and help ensure I can keep delivering deeply researched pieces that provide a diet culture-free take on hot nutrition topics like ultra processed foods, the Zoe app, and the deep dive on folic acid and folate that I just did recently.All of those you can read at laurathomas.substack.com if you haven't already. And if you're not totally sold yet then maybe this lovely review that I got recently will help convince you. So one reader wrote: “I feel so lucky that I found your work around the same time I started feeding my kid real food. It saved me so much angst and has allowed me to relax and really enjoy seeing him explore eating. Your essays on sugar especially was a game changer. I'm sure it won't always be plain sailing, but I feel so much more prepared to ride the waves of his changing appetite. and tastes as he grows, accepting them as a feature and not a bug.So hopefully he can have a much more relaxed relationship to food than I had for a long time. And I pay my £5 a month because I so value the work you put into your writing and think it's worth paying for. There's a lot of free advice out there, but I never know what I can trust. This is such a safe haven.”So yeah, it's £5 a month or £50 for the year. You can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com or check out the show notes for this episode. And if you can't stretch to a paid subscription right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk for a comp subscription. No questions asked. You don't need to justify yourself. Just put ‘Snacks' in the subject line. This is actually going to be our last podcast of the year. I'll be back in your ears in January with brand new guests. Paid subscribers will continue to hear from me in your inboxes and in the group chat, where I'm going to be holding space for all the venting and screaming at diet culture shit that gets dredged up over the holidays and into January. If you'd like to join us, you can sign up at LauraThomas.substack.com. Otherwise I'll speak to you in January. Okay, team. Over to Erin. MAIN EPISODE:Alright, Erin. Can you please start by telling us a bit more about you and the work that you do?Erin: Yeah. I am a registered dietitian. Well, in the United States, based in, um, the Seattle, Washington…I was gonna say, the ‘state of Washington'! And I'm also a certified diabetes care and education specialist. It used to be a certified diabetes educator and they wanted to add more letters. So I'm in private practice and I focus on working with people with diabetes and eating disorders at the same time, or people who had a history of an eating disorder and then were recently diagnosed with diabetes but don't want like It wouldn't be helpful or safe for them to go to just any diabetes educator.So those are the folks that I work with.Laura: Okay, so you're kind of working at that intersection between eating disorder care and diabetes care. And I think, like, what's important to highlight, which people might not be...aware of or familiar with is the idea that people who have type 2 diabetes, I would say in particular, but all forms of diabetes are at a heightened risk of disordered eating and eating disorders. And does that relationship…? No, it doesn't go the other way, does it?Erin: I think it does.Laura: You think it does?Erin: I think it does. There isn't a lot of research on it, but clinically, I absolutely see that.Laura: Okay. That's interesting. Erin: And eating disorders and gestational diabetes. I was talking with a colleague about this, that we see people with a history of, of an eating disorder, it feels like are at much higher risk of gestational diabetes.But the research…I don't, I haven't looked into the research on that, but we definitely see it clinically.Laura: Yeah, that's an interesting observation that you've noticed. So, you use this term diabetes educator. We don't have that here so it might be helpful to just kind of explain a little bit about what that is and then maybe we can unpack what exactly we're talking about here when we talk about diabetes and sort of associated terms.Erin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for clarifying that. I love talking to people in other countries to learn about like, what do things look like there? So, a diabetes educator, I know they have them in the States and in Canada, maybe Australia, but basically what it is, is...Laura: Just to clarify, like, okay, in case my, like...dietetics colleagues are all like yelling at me right now. We do have dieticians that specialise in diabetes, but it's like the diabetes educator title is kind of a, like a bolt on right to your, your like baseline nutrition training. Is that right?Erin: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So here to become a. a certified diabetes care and education specialist – that's such a mouthful! You, yeah, you need, I think it's 2000 hours of working with people with diabetes after you've become, become a dietitian or you can be a social worker, you can be a pharmacist, you can be a nurse. There's lots of nurses that are diabetes educators. So you get those practice hours, you get continuing, I don't know how many hours of continuing education a lot. And then you take an exam, right? Then it's like, well, at least here, like the dietitian renewal where every five years you renew by getting enough continuing education credits.Laura: Okay, so it's safe to say you know a lot of stuff about diabetes.Erin: Yes, I think so, yeah.Laura: It's kind of your thing. So, I really wanted to talk to you specifically about type 2 diabetes today because, 1) there seems to be a lot of confusion about it. 2) It kind of gets bundled up with a lot of anti-fat bias and carb-phobia and diet culture. And then 3), it's something that listeners of the podcast and readers of the newsletter have requested that we talk about. Would you mind starting by just telling us what exactly type 2 diabetes is, and how it relates to concepts like prediabetes and insulin resistance? So that's a big question. Where feels like the best place to start?Erin: I think actually starting with insulin resistance, because I think of that as kind of an umbrella and then prediabetes and type 2 diabetes fall underneath that umbrella. Yeah. So, insulin resistance is a term that means…so all humans have glucose floating around in their blood at all times. That is the main source of fuel. It's so funny to look at you while I'm talking about this because I'm like, you know this! But anyway, all humans have glucose floating around in the blood. It's our main source of fuel for the body. And then for glucose to get into our cells, we need insulin. And I always use the analogy of: insulin is the key that unlocks the cell to let the glucose in. And so insulin resistance is where that key gets a little, like, sticky or…kind of like the key to my car right now that I have to wriggle it the just the right way. So it can take a little bit longer for the glucose to get into the cell. It still happens but it just takes a little bit longer.So that is insulin resistance and that is one of the key features of both ‘prediabetes' and type 2 diabetes. Often, when I say ‘prediabetes', I do bunny ears or air quotes because it's a misunderstood term and we can totally get into that later. But so type 2 diabetes is where a body has either lived with insulin resistance long enough or something else has happened that has made, in addition to insulin resistance, glucose levels get high enough in the blood to meet this diagnostic criteria.And we've actually…this is something I love sharing with people because often type 2 diabetes is just like, all we focus on is insulin resistance, but there's actually at least 10 other changes in the body that lead to elevated glucose levels that are going on in addition to insulin resistance.Laura: Okay, before we go on, I want to actually reverse and back up a little bit here, because…so you talked about how we have glucose in our bloodstreams that needs to get into our cells all the time.That's like everybody, always – even if you're like a keto bro. What I just wanted to make really clear for anyone who's totally new to these conversations is that glucose…it gets into our bloodstream from the food that we eat and it's a sugar, right? So I think those are two important points to clarify, that we consume food, it gets broken down and digested and absorbed across the gut lumen. And that's what raises our blood glucose levels. And then insulin is the hormone that's secreted by the pancreas that unlocks the door to the cell, to let glucose move into the cell, so we have energy, so we can do things, so we can go about our business as being humans. Sometimes what can happen is that the door gets a little rusty, or the key gets a little rusty, and it's harder for that insulin to get into the cell. Is that like a fair summary of... Wow. What's going on? Erin: That was beautiful. I was nodding furiously.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like I know something about this! Right. So then can you tell us a little, like – I think you alluded to this – but maybe speak to it a little more to how the kind of the cells get rusty and how it's harder to shift insulin into the cells.Can you talk to us about what happens next? Maybe some of the symptoms people might experience and then what's going on physiologically as well.Erin: Yeah. So when a body is experiencing those like rusty cell doors, there's a lot of different hormones that are actually involved in not only glucose regulation or blood sugar regulation, but just metabolism.So glucose regulation is just one part of metabolism. And when I say metabolism, I mean using energy from food and turning that energy into energy for the body and then using energy to the body.Laura: Yeah, thank you for clarifying that because this is something I come up against a lot where like metabolism is used as this kind of catch-all phrase to mean how quickly your body burns energy or it's like this really diet culture-y kind of thing.But when you and I are talking about it... I think we're talking about all the biochemical processes that are going on inside your body, all these cascades of reactions and like how a nutrient that we ingest in food or in a supplement winds its way into our body and becomes part of these chemical reactions that are going on, like, deep inside our tissues.Erin: Yep. Yeah, that good old Krebs cycle. So when the cell door gets rusty, that's a big kind of flag for the body, I guess you could say, for the metabolic process. So, I think you mentioned the pancreas already. So the pancreas is the organ in the body that produces the hormone insulin, along with other hormones. When the pancreas notices the cell doors getting rusty, the pancreas will say, Oh, that's cool. I got this. And we'll start producing more and more insulin because the signal that the pancreas is getting is from the cells. The cells are saying, we're not getting the glucose that we're wanting, that we need, that we need to survive or not getting it as quickly or as much. And so then the pancreas starts producing more and more insulin.Laura: So it's trying to, it's getting the message that there's not enough insulin to, to get the glucose from the bloodstream into the cell so it starts to produce more. And can you maybe speak to the impact that this can have on the pancreas? Is it helpful to explain that a little bit?Erin: Yeah, yeah, I think so, because I think that's also something that people don't think about or aren't explained. Yeah. So the beta cells are the cells in the pancreas that produce insulin, and as they produce more and more insulin, they start to, after... I should say after decades of producing more and more insulin, those beta cells start to kind of poop out.Laura: Yeah, they get exhausted.Erin: Yeah. That's a better word.Laura: Crap out, poop out, exhaustion. Yeah, like ultimately they're working really hard for a really long time and that takes a toll, I think is what we're saying.Erin: Yeah, they start to go on strike, like they're doing the work of more…Laura: Like the teachers and the nurses and the doctors and the train drivers and yeah, we're having a lot of strikes here at the moment.So yeah, it's almost as though governments are failing globally, right? Almost.Erin: Yeah, you have to laugh because otherwise you cry! So the pancreas starts to get exhausted, in the research that's called beta cell exhaustion or beta cell failure. So the pancreas isn't able to produce quite as much insulin anymore.And after decades and decades and decades, the pancreas will not be able to produce enough insulin to meet the needs of the body. And that's when I say, store bought insulin works really well for that.Laura: Store bought! I love it. I love it because to me that just feels like a much kinder non-judgmental framing of what I think is…often a condition that is attached with a lot of shame and judgment. Like, yeah, there's, there's a real narrative that if you get to the point where you need the store bought insulin, that that's a failure.And there's a lot of research and a lot of conversations at the moment about this idea around ‘remission' and, you know, ‘reversing diabetes' and, and all of those kinds of things, which we're going to speak to a little bit in a minute, but I think that just adds so much to the shame of needing the store bought insulin. So yeah, that just feels like a really kind kind of framing around that. So let's see, we've talked a little bit about the mechanisms whereby we find it harder to get glucose into the cells over a long, long, long period of time that can kind of exhaust the pancreas, which means that we might need to get that store bought insulin. But there's kind of a wide spectrum between, like, the cells starting to get rusty and getting to the point where you might need insulin...endogenous? Exogenous! Exogenous insulin.Erin: That's why I say store bought!Laura: Store bought, yes. And I think that's where maybe this idea of like prediabetes comes in. And we've, you've talked about how that's maybe not the most helpful label.I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there's a period where somebody might have some insulin resistance, might have elevated blood glucose levels. But it's not considered high enough for a type 2 diabetes diagnosis. So could you explain what's going on there and why that's a contested term?Erin: Yeah, yeah. So if we think about a timeline of a body experiencing insulin resistance, the first thing that will happen is the insulin resistance And then the next thing that will happen…I shouldn't say will, that's the biggest thing that I don't like about the term pr diabetes is this, that it, it makes us think that it will happen.So what could happen, a body experiences insulin resistance. What could happen is that their glucose levels start to increase to a level where they meet the prediabetes diagnostic criteria. And then, the assumption with the term prediabetes is that that means eventually, unless you do something, like in big, bold, scary letters, that eventually, your body will meet the diagnostic criteria for type 2 diabetes.But what research shows is that that's not, that's not the case. I'm maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.Laura: No, I know. That's absolutely…I think it's a really important point. And so I have, and Erin, you can tell me if this isn't quite right, but my understanding is that progression from prediabetes to type 2 diabetes is less than 2% per year or less than 10% in 5 years.And I also have another statistic that 59% of people with prediabetes return to normal blood glucose values between 1 and 11 years with no treatment at all. Does that corroborate with your understanding? .Erin: Yeah, yeah, I recently was looking into this research and that sounds like exactly what I found. And it really depends on where you look and what study you look at and what population they were looking at. But the, the biggest takeaway for me was that it's not…Laura: It's not a done deal.Erin: Yeah, someone's body can just be in that prediabetes range forever or um, either forever or they can go back to below the prediabetes range that it…by focusing on the blood glucose values, we're looking at a symptom and we're not really looking at what's going on underneath.And so it's, I find that less, less helpful for that reason.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. So I think what we're saying is that prediabetes is somewhat of a dubious diagnosis, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this too, but my sense is that like, giving that label can create a lot of shame and create stigma.It freaks people out, is my... experience of working with clients who their doctors have flagged that they have elevated blood sugar levels, let's say, and then….we know that stress and anxiety is not great for blood sugar management, so like, I mean, yeah, do you have anything to add to that? Like, what are your thoughts on that?Erin: That's exactly what I see in my practice and what I saw when I worked in a GP's office as well, that people are freaked out by either, either one of those labels and…yeah, stress and worry and anxiety and trauma. I think sometimes a diagnosis of prediabetes or type 2 diabetes can be a traumatic event, especially when it's not in the presence of someone caring and that you trust, or especially if you have a family history of diabetes where you've seen maybe some scary things, which I will – now that I said that – I will add that it's, that's not a, what's the word? That's not like a definite outcome either of those scary things. But it can be, yeah, it can be really stressful and that's the opposite of what is helpful for blood sugars.Laura: Yeah. Tell us a little about what the difference between a ‘prediabetes' diagnosis is versus a type 2 diabetes diagnosis? Is it just a difference of the level of sugar in the blood?Is it, is there a factor of time or like, is time factored into that? Like how long it's elevated for? Can you maybe speak to how, you know, you go from ‘prediabetes' as it were to type 2 diabetes?Erin: Yeah, that's a really good question. The way that I think about it is just in the diagnostic criteria, which is for a type 2 diabetes diagnosis, your blood sugar needs to get so high in the States, we usually diagnose it based on an A1c.So an A1c is usually what we use in the States to diagnose both prediabetes and type 2 diabetes. And here a type 2 diabetes is diagnosed at 6.5 and prediabetes is diagnosed at 5.7 up to 6.4. So ours is actually lower than yours in the UK and lower than Canada and lower than the rest of the world, basically.Laura: I feel like that's probably a really important and intentional thing, and we could probably go off on some conspiracy theories there. Erin: I have many. Yeah. Laura: Yeah, maybe it would be helpful to just briefly explain what HbA1c is, or A1c, and how it's measured and, like, what, what it's measuring. Erin: Yeah. A1c, I call it A1c, but you guys call it HbA1c. Should I say HbA1c?Laura: No, it's, it's fine. And I don't, I don't know why I call it that because I did my dietetics training in the US but I, I dunno, who knows, who knows?Erin: I've noticed everybody calls it something a little bit different.Laura: So, because I guess the HB refers to it being the hemoglobin is the hemoglobin one. But it's the same thing. A1c is easier, so let's just go with that. Erin: Okay, okay, cool. So A1c is a measurement of average glucose levels over the past two to three months. And the reason that it's average and two to three months is that as hemoglobin, so hemoglobin A1c is the full name of the lab value.As hemoglobin is part of our red blood cells, so in our veins and arteries, our red blood cells are floating around and glucose is also floating around. And so as glucose is bumping up against those red blood cells, it leaves a little bit of stickiness of glucose on the red blood cells. And then red blood cells live for 60 to 90 days, so that's 2 to 3 months.So then when they draw blood to check an A1C, they measure what percentage of the red blood cells are…kind of have this glucose levels on them or glucose on them. And then they can give us that A1C measurement in percentage form. So like 5.7 means... That according to the United States, we're classifying that as prediabetes and then 6.5 is type 2 diabetes. And the reason that we diagnose type 2 diabetes or all diabetes at a 6.5 is that long, long, long term research…or we followed, not we, I'm not part of it, the fancy researchers have followed thousands of people for decades and found that if blood sugar stays kind of in that 6.5 to 6.9 range, risk of those scary things like blindness or kidney disease or circulation problems is very, very, very, very, very, very low, basically the same as people without diabetes. So that's why we diagnose it at that, what I think of as like a pretty conservative level, because we want to keep people from experiencing those scary things.Laura: Absolutely. HbA1c is a sort of medium-ish term measurement of your average blood glucose levels, whereas if we were to just do a blood test randomly at any point in the day, there are like a bajillion different factors that could influence, you know, whether it's a high reading or a low reading, like how recently you ate, it can, you know, it can vary according to a whole bunch of different things.So a better way of measuring blood glucose is to look at that value over a slightly longer period of time and get that average, even though there are still some issues with looking at that number, but it's, it's a better number than, than just doing a random blood glucose test. So we've talked a little bit about insulin resistances, what prediabetes is and what type 2 diabetes is. There is this really pervasive myth that type 2 diabetes is caused by eating too much sugar. What do we know about that? Is that true?Erin: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.Laura: That was such a leading question, right?Erin: Is that true? Tell us! The way I think of that is that it's a real, just a misunderstanding of, of the complicated nature of type 2 diabetes – and when I say complicated, I mean, like referring back to those 11 different changes in the body that I mentioned earlier.Laura: Oh, so tell us about that because you, we said we were going to come back to this. What are the different changes?Erin: I can't even remember them all off the top of my head, but some of them are…the insulin resistance is one, the kidneys are responsible for filtering out our glucose when there's too much. And in type 2 diabetes, the kidneys start holding on to more glucose than we would want them to.Another is a decreased level of incretin hormones. So, GLP 1 is an incretin hormone. GIP is another incretin hormone, and those hormones are responsible for helping regulate glucose levels. And, and many people with type 2 diabetes and someone with prediabetes, they have a decreased level of those hormones.Laura: Okay, so I guess what, what you're saying here is that we often just focus on the changes to the pancreas and insulin, which is what I was asking you about before, but actually there are systemic changes that are going on throughout the whole body, right? Is that what we're saying? Erin: Yeah. Laura: Okay.Erin: Yeah. And those are absolutely not caused by eating, quote, too much sugar or eating sugar.Laura: Right, right, right, but because what we're dealing with is elevated blood glucose levels, the sort of obvious, or what people think of is the obvious pathway, as well…it's too much sugar in the diet, therefore your blood sugar level is too high. But what I'm hearing you say is it's just not as straightforward as that.Erin: Absolutely, yeah.Laura: Okay. Anything else that you wanted to add about, like, that particular myth, or?Erin: I wish I had more, like, definitive, like, it, that is not true because X, Y, Z, but you can't disprove a myth with research, you know what I mean?Laura: Yeah, yeah.Erin: Like, if somebody was like, yeah, unicorns exist, I'd be like, I don't know how to prove that to you. Because I can't show you, like, there is not a unicorn here.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I hear you. But I guess, like, what I would want people to take away from this and understand is that, like, you didn't cause your type 2 diabetes, like, you're not to blame. And, you know, similarly to how there are all different changes in the body that take place when somebody has type 2 diabetes, there are all sorts of factors that contribute to and help explain why somebody might develop type 2 diabetes. And they are everything from, you know, stress and sleep and things that, you know, often get called like lifestyle variables, even though that in and of itself is problematic, all the way through to experiencing racism, homophobia, transphobia, anti fat bias, you know, all of these like discrimination and prejudiceracism, homophobia, transphobia, anti fat bias, you know, all of these like discrimination and prejudice. Those things are also going to play a part in our blood glucose regulation, but we don't think of that. We don't think about the social determinants of health. We just think about like, well, you ate too many carbs. Therefore you need to cut out carbs. And this is the advice that people are given, we hear this idea that like carbohydrates cause, in inverted commas, type 2 diabetes, but we've…we also hear that it's caused by being a higher body weight.So, I'd love to hear you unpack that a little bit and, and kind of…yeah, is it a similar thing to what I just said about carbohydrates or is there anything else that you would add to that?Erin: So the thing that I go back to a lot with that, I guess, argument is that there's a really big difference between a correlation and a causation.So the example that I give with that is that as soon as ice cream sales go up, there's also an increase in shark attacks. Like, those things are correlated, but we can't say, we can't draw from that that correlation.Laura: Yeah, that ice cream causes shark attacks.Erin: Shark attacks, yeah. Right. And with that one, there's a really obvious, you know, third factor, which is weather, that contributes to both of those things going up, and it's not quite so clear with weight and, and type 2 diabetes.But there's one theory, which is that weight gain can be a symptom of type 2 diabetes. Another problem with that argument is that it really ignores just the natural body diversity that exists and occurs in the world. There are plenty, plenty of people in higher weight bodies who don't have diabetes and If it were true that higher weight causes type 2 diabetes, then all people in larger bodies would, would have type 2 diabetes, and that is...absolutely not true at all and the research shows thatLaura: And I guess the inverse is also true, right, that people who have a lower body weight, a lower BMI also get type 2 diabetes. And so it's, it's again, not looking at the, the correlation and drawing kind of the cause and effect conclusion, but also thinking about, okay, what other factors are going on that we're not seeing?And I think, to my mind, at least, it goes back to some of the things that I talked about before, some of the things that are, well, a lot of things that are outside of our control, like again, how we are treated in society, and how that, you know, that has been shown to like..even things like the Whitehall studies.Are you familiar with the Whitehall studies? Erin: No.Laura: So the Whitehall studies are kind of what I think Michael Marmot's work on the social determinants of health are based on, whereby they studied like civil servants who worked in Whitehall, which is like part of the government in the UK. And basically they stratified, I think it was mostly on men. Whitehall 1 was mostly done on men, because, of course, we need to know more about men, but this was, this was, these studies were done, done a while back and they have since added women. But effectively they stratified people by like their pay grade essentially, and they found that people who were in a lower pay grade, you know, they all worked in the same place. There was a lot of factors that were very similar about these men. But one of the key aspects was how much like autonomy they had in their job and what their income was. And they found that the people who hadl ess autonomy, so they were like a lower pay grade, basically, even though they had sort of overall similar working conditions, that the people in the lower pay grades had, I think, higher risk of cardiovascular disease compared to upper management and that kind of thing.And so it's a similar sort of effect here. And we also see it with like racism and anti-fat bias that there are all these structural things that contribute to our health in really, really complex ways. So I feel like that is a big part of what happens with type 2 diabetes that again, like kind of just seems to get overlooked by the keto bros.Hopefully some of that rambling made sense, but I'd like to maybe now think about...For anyone who has received this prediabetes diagnosis or a type 2 diabetes diagnosis, like, one of the first line pieces of advice that a GP or even a dietitian might give is around weight loss and around limiting carbohydrates in the diet.Where to start, really, Erin? Like, in terms of both of those. But basically, I would be interested to hear from you. Is that where you would start with someone? Or like, even putting it another way, are those helpful places to start? I mean, again, a leading question.Erin: The short answer is no, I do not find that to be a helpful place to start.You know, I'm really looking at this from the perspective of the population that I work with, who are people who have, who have restricted their eating many, many, many times throughout their life, or engaged in intentional weight loss many, many, many times in their life.Laura: Sorry, I just wanted to clarify as well for anyone who's like newer to the podcast that you say intentional weight loss and when you say that someone who has restricted their food for whatever, like, who has restricted their food, that doesn't necessarily mean someone who has an eating disorder, right? Like, like, what I'm trying to get at that people might not immediately realise is that that applies to people who have been chronic dieters, like people who have been dieting their whole life, right? That also kind of falls under that umbrella, right?Erin: Yeah, absolutely. And most people fall under that umbrella versus the, like, the full eating disorder umbrella. So yeah, it really applies to…most people who have been socialised as female, I would be so bold as to say that most, most people who have been socialised as female and many others have, have restricted their eating or dieted or gone on a lifestyle change, many, many times.And. So, because…I'm trying to think of how to say this without getting too into the weeds of, of, um, like clinical weeds…but because the body is hardwired against famine, what will happen if someone tries this again or says like, okay, I've been told to lose weight and restrict carbs or eat less carbs because I've had this diagnosis of prediabetes or type 2 diabetes, what will happen is things will look, quote, better for a little while. And so that's why, that's why the research shows like, oh, yeah, that's the thing that we need to do is because for 12 to 24 months, things are gonna get better. And when I say better, I mean, glucose levels will go lower.Laura: I was just gonna say because research in this area is generally done over like a fairly short term period where maybe If you're really, like, persistent, you can diet for that length of time, but yeah, so that's kind of, I guess what I'm trying to say is that over that shorter time frame, people, especially if they're given lots of support, like in a research study setting, might be able to continue with a restrictive diet for a bit longer, right? But then what happens?Erin: Yeah, but then the body…since the body's hardwired against famine, the body will start to engage in all of these compensatory mechanisms. Yeah. Basically like that, that carb restriction or yeah, any kind of caloric restriction, but especially carb restriction will kind of start the spring loading effect for the body to protect against that famine at all costs, which means that glucose levels will go up higher than they were before, and weight does the same thing, insulin level, same thing. So If we follow people longer than that 12 to 24 months, what we see is that these metabolic health markers are worse than they were at the beginning.Laura: Interesting. Yeah. So, I guess what, what you're saying is... And I see this in practice as well, is that people, yeah, in the shorter term, they might be able to restrict their eating, they may even lose a little bit of weight, or maybe even a lot of weight in some instances, and then in the short term, those biomarkers might seem as though they're improving.But then, because the body is, as you said, hardwired to, yeah, to protect itself, to move, like, protect itself against starvation, and the body can't really tell the difference between, you know, famine. And self imposed or medically imposed dieting and restriction, it eventually fights back against that in the form of like, it dials up cravings for these foods.It might also…like your metabolism, like all of that, those metabolic functions that we talked about right at the beginning, they start to slow down, which means that you start to maintain your weight or, or even put weight on. And what I see – and I'm, I'm curious if you see this as well – is that that degree of restriction that is often asked of people in these very low carb diets that sometimes get prescribed, certainly here in the UK on the NHS or that a lot that are sort of endorsed by a lot of diabetes organizations even, they cause people to fall into a binge restrict cycle. So rather than having kind of a more…moderate's not the right word, but like having a healthier relationship with food where you maybe are eating more regularly, but maybe in a way that feels more attuned to your body and also caring for yourself in all of these other ways that are really important. I don't want to just put that emphasis on food, but we're talking about food here. That what you end up happening is people restrict, restrict, restrict, but then they can't maintain that restriction forever. And so they end up in a blowout, right? Like where they're eating past the point of comfortable fullness, which can send their blood glucose levels sky fucking high, and I don't mean that in like a shaming way. I'm not blaming any individual person who has been caught in this cycle because it's not your fault. But just to illustrate like how kind of messed up that advice is that it can send people sort of, yeah, into this, this downward spiral of binge restrict, binge restrict.And I think what's kind of important to note here is that you could have someone who has what looks like on paper, perfect A1C, right? But they are binging and restricting, binging and restricting, and that the average blood glucose level over time looks like…you know, on paper, it looks great. But if you were to actually look at what was happening to that person and their relationship with food and how they were feeling, you might see a different picture.Erin: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a really good point. A really good point. And to add on to what you were saying about it not being someone's fault, that binge restrict cycle is, is a very predictable result of the exact recommendations that people are being given. People are being given these recommendations to restrict calories, restrict carbs, and that is…the most predictable outcome of that is weight gain, higher glucose, and that binge restrict cycle when we look at the long, in the long term.Laura: Yeah, and I think that there's, there's something kind of psychological that goes on here as well when we ask people to really focus on the minutiae of detail around carbohydrates, around what they're eating, that that in and of itself, like that mental restriction can create, like, what I call the fuck it effect, like, or, yeah, just even the threat of restriction and deprivation can kind of trip a switch for people who have had an experience or had a history of disordered eating or chronic dieting or, you know, even, even people who have just tried to maintain a quote, a healthy lifestyle or wellness lifestyle and it really lead to problems for them.So, Erin, for anyone who's listening to this, who is like, well, my doctor has told me to lose weight. My doctor has told me that I need to cut out carbs or my diabetes nurse or my dietitian. But you're telling me, and actually my lived experience is that that's not a great option for me. Where can people start? Like, or more specifically, like, where do you start with people who come to you with this exact?Erin: The first place I start is by repeating over and over that you did not cause your diabetes. This is absolutely not your fault. You did all the things right, quote, right. Like there's nothing that you could have done differently to make this different, to make this not happen. Because like you were saying, Laura, that's most of the, the biggest factors here are stress, trauma, marginalisation. Those, those are the biggest factors and you don't, those are things are completely out of – and genetics! I didn't, we haven't even mentioned…Laura: Yeah, there's the genetic thing too.Erin: So, I think that's really hard for people to believe because it's the opposite of what they've been told for so long. There's so much of like, if you don't blah blah blah, you're gonna get diabetes. And so I repeat that over and over, that you did not cause your diabetes, it's not your fault. And then the next thing that we talk about is actually eating enough. So making sure that you're nourishing your body enough. Mm hmm. There's a lot of, like, biochemical metabolic processes that we can talk about about the why behind that. But I think we've, we've talked a lot about that today so we can take our words for it. That eating enough is just really, really important.Laura: Yeah, I think there's something there about sort of, you know, if it's available to you, like doing some work maybe around figuring out what your hunger and fullness cues look like, feel like. Because, again, just purely anecdotally, I've noticed that people who are, you know, not so attuned to those signals might, you know, put off, not eat enough throughout the day, so that then it does leave them feeling a bit more vulnerable to bingeing or, you know, like eating in a way that that feels like out of control or chaotic.Not that eating has to be this like super controlled thing, but also just recognising how unsettling and disturbing it can feel, if it feels like you have no say in what's going on as well. So yeah, I love that that's kind of like your, your starting point is like, hold up, are you actually eating enough?Erin: Mm hmm. And I say this in, you know, in this blanket way, talking to you today, because way more often than not, I see that people are not eating enough. And people are shocked at like, wait, I eat that much?Laura: Yeah. And, and I just want to, like, underscore that point. Especially for my clients who are fat or in bigger bodies, plus size, whatever language you feel comfortable using there. When I've said to clients in bigger bodies before, like, I don't think you're eating enough. There is just like a…I don't know, like, just this complete disbelief because it's so counter to what they've always been told, which is like you're eating too much. So, yeah, I just wanted to like flag that as well that like this is not just a thin people thing. That's for everyone.Erin: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for highlighting that.Laura: Are there any other like, kind of like, I suppose what I'm thinking of is like low hanging fruit, like things that are like, maybe not easy for people, but like, that might feel more accessible. That's maybe the right word.Erin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it, you know, really, really depends on the person and their, their experiences with food and movement and the medical system and their body, but some other things that may or may not be low hanging fruit are finding a doctor or a, or a medical team that you really vibe with, or at least that you hate less, we can say, like that feels less terrible. Because one of the biggest, most helpful things you can do with any type of diabetes is monitoring. And when I say monitoring, that can be anything from, well, mostly that's just like checking in with your medical team like quarterly or a few times a year, depending on what's going on for you. And if, if you absolutely dread it, that's not going to happen, right? Like you're not going to be able to be monitored.So finding somewhere that is less terrible, or maybe even someone you vibe with is really important.Laura: Yeah. That's really good advice. And I'm just…I'm thinking about the pathways that we have here in the UK and as far as I know, and it will probably depend slightly on different NHS trusts, but as far as I know you get an annual diabetes review for type 2 diabetes and I'm just thinking like about that in relation to the point that you're making which is that, yeah, having that check in that support just…you know not necessarily like a full review but like just to, yeah, see how things are going and, and see like what you might need, like that might not be available to everyone, certainly in this country. And I'm sure it depends on things like insurance and stuff in other countries, but I guess what I'm learning is just how fucking atrocious a lot of medical…or like not atrocious, that's not what I mean. But like, how under-resourced a lot of medical systems are in terms of like giving people the things that would be most useful, which is again why we're like, here's a diet sheet off you go, and that's not helpful.Erin: Yeah. No. Yeah. Not helpful at all. Gosh, that's, that's so maddening. t's really easy for us here in the U. S. to be like, uh, everywhere else has it better with healthcare, but it's really grounding to hear that not everybody's figured it out.Laura: It's like, what, 13 years of a Tory government? So. It's not surprising that our healthcare system has been absolutely obliterated.And again, it will depend on the area that you're in as to how good that care is. And that's not a reflection on any, like, individual practitioner within that system. Like, we all know how hard they are working and how kind of up against it they are. But what I'm hearing you say, really, Erin, is that, like, the going in hard with, like, weight loss and restricting carbohydrates, that is probably counterproductive to the overall aim of, like, caring for yourself, and that there are some other things that we can, like, think about and incorporate that might…Okay, they're maybe not such a like, go hard or go home approach, but that maybe they're more sustainable. Maybe they're like, kinder and gentler. And I think that reminds me of something that I will say to people if they come to me and they're like, you know, my doctor has flagged this, I'm feeling really stressed is…this is not an emergency. Right, like this is your arm is not hanging off or whatever it is. We can take a beat. And if there's other stuff that you just need to like, get a handle on, like life stuff or whatever it is, like, maybe this isn't your top top priority right now. Like, what are some like, small things that we can do to help you feel like you're caring for yourself or are being cared for that don't sort of, are maybe not going like full throttle, like, you know, what the common narrative is that we should be like cutting out carbs and losing all of this weight. But what are maybe some like softer things that we can start with? Yeah. Oh, well, Erin, thank you so much. This has been really helpful. And I know that you have a ton of resources on your website, on your Instagram that people can dig into. And I'll link to all of that in, in the show notes. I also want to mention that a while back at LCIE, we produced a guide, a weight inclusive guide to insulin resistance, and it has some more information about things like medication, supplementation, and again, some of those like lower hanging fruit things that might be helpful if this is something you're navigating and it has, you know, information about what we talked about today, Erin, the lock and key thing and like the how ‘prediabetes' is a dubious diagnosis. So I'll also link to that for anyone who's interested in the show notes. Okay, Erin, before I let you go, At the end of every episode, my guest and I share what they've been snacking on. So it can be anything, you know, a show, a podcast, a literal snack, whatever it is. I'd love to hear what recommendation you have for the listeners.Erin: Can I share a couple? Laura: Of course! Yeah. Erin: Okay, cool. Well, I'm literally snacking on all things peanut butter, which I don't know if you guys like peanut butter, but I. Just had some peanut butter pretzels again recently and I was like, gosh… Laura: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, are they the Trader Joe's ones? Erin: Yes. Laura: Okay. So last Christmas, my brother sent me like a huge ass box of stuff 'cause he lives in Oklahoma. From Trader Joe's. And it had those peanut butter pretzels in them and I hadn't had them before. And we don't have good snacks here. I'm just gonna say like the snack game in the States is just like…it's so much better than it is here, but I know those pretzels and they're so good. They're so good, yeah.We're gonna do a, like a snack box exchange again this year. So I sent him like, he loves chocolate, so I sent him like a ton of like Dairy Milk and like chocolates from... the UK and he sends me stuff from the US. So like, that's, that's fun. But I'm going to add them to the list because they are so good.Erin: They are so good. And you can, if you're in the States, you can also get them at Costco. Very similar ones.Laura: Okay.Erin: In bulk. Yeah. Big ol thing. So that's what I'm snacking on. My other thing is the podcast Normal Gossip.Laura: Oh yeah! I have heard a couple of episodes of that. And like, for anyone who hasn't heard it, can you explain the premise?Erin: Yeah, they get a story sent in from someone, like a true story, and then they share the story, like they're gossiping with a guest on, and they'll pause a lot in the story where they're like, okay, so this is what's going on, what would you do next? And so there's a little bit of like, choose your own adventure that I think is really fun.And then it's just so silly, but it's really nice to like, have some silliness.Laura: Oh, 100%. In the mess of everything. Do you have, like, a favourite episode that you would... Is there like a standout?Erin: Well, I just listened to one that was a live episode that I think it was like the plant story or something like that.And it was fun because they had a guest where they would ask them what they'd do. And then they'd have people raise their hands if they like absolutely disagreed in the audience. And then. So you just got a lot…there was even more choose your own adventure.Laura: There's like, yeah, more back and forth. Okay. Yeah. Like the plant story. I'm going to get you to send me the link and I will include it in the show notes because yeah, I am deep down a research rabbit hole at the moment looking at folic acid and folate and I'm like digesting all this biochemistry and I find that that happens a lot that I listen to a lot of like podcasts that are related to my work in some way and I forget the podcast can be fun.Erin: Uh huh!Laura: Yeah, I need to get back into that. All right, real quick, mine. So this is just like a fun, festive thing that I came across the other day, which I was looking for some new shoes and I came across gold sparkly converse high tops. Erin: Oh my God. Laura: And they are so cool. So I bought a pair. I don't know if I'm going to…they haven't arrived yet. I'm gonna try them on, but I feel like gold is a neutral, right? Like, it will go with everything.Erin: Oh, that's true. When I first heard you said neutral, I was like, are they? Is gold neutral? But it does go with anything.Laura: Yeah, so I'm gonna try them on, see what they're like, but I will, I will include a link in the show notes because, yeah, from the picture, I haven't seen them in real life yet, but from the picture, they don't look like they're too over the top and I feel like…if you know if like depending on what you're wearing like you probably get away with them at the playground, right?Erin: Totally. Totally. Laura: This is what I'm telling myself anyway. I kind of text them to all of my friends. I was like, what do you think of this? And there was like a lukewarm reception, but I think, I think I need new friends is really…with better taste is what, is kind of where I've come down on it! Maybe I'll put them on my Instagram stories and see what people think. Erin: There you go. Laura: All right, Erin. This was…uh, I was gonna say this was really fun, that little bit at the end was really fun. Like, all the bullshit around weight loss and low carb diets, not so fun, but I'm glad that we got to unpack, unpack that a little bit.For anyone who wants to dig into your work and your resources a little bit more, where can they find you and more about your work?Erin: My website is a good place. I have some free resources there and I try to update my blog with some kind of my push, my pushing back beliefs on kind of diabetes diet culture. And that is ErinPhillips.com. No, erinphillipsnutrition.com. Laura: Should we fact check your website?! Erin: I tried to buy erinphillips.com, but it wasn't available. So, erinphillipsnutrition.com. And then my Instagram, I think it's @ErinPhillipsNutrition.Laura: Okay, well we…just make sure you click on the link in the show notes because Erin's not a reliable resource on her own social media! So we'll make sure people get there in the end.All right, thank you so much, I really appreciate it Erin. Erin: Yeah, thank you, Laura. Thanks so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today.  Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI this week: Gift Concierge + Mini Gift Guide* Fundamentals: Helping Kids build a Good Relationship with Sugar* Here's Why You Might Want to Pass On Getting Your Kid Weighed in School* The One-upMUMship of Kid Food Instagram This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast. I have been so excited to share this week's episode with you. Our guest today is Kirstie Beaven from Sonshine magazine - a publication dedicated to raising boys for a more equal world. Kirstie and I talk about how seemingly innocuous things like dinosaur t-shirts and shark pants send a message to our kids about who they can and can't be, how they should expect to be treated, and how they should treat others. Kirstie gives us a fascinating history lesson on how kids' clothes became gendered (spoiler, colonialism and capitalism have a lot to do with it) and why these have massive repercussions for gender equality. We also talk about why Kirstie is low-key obsessed with pants (the underwear kind), and why we can't just empower girls in a vacuum; we also need to be teaching boys emotional literacy and allowing them to have an identity outside of the ‘big boy', or the sporty one. Just a heads up that we talk about some distressing statistics around sexual harassment, suicide, and violence towards women and girls, but not in explicit detail.This is without a doubt one of my favourite episodes we've done on the CIHAS pod - if you've never listened before then this is a great place to start, even if you don't have kids. Don't forget to leave a review in your podcast player if you enjoy this episode - or let me know what you think in the comments below. Find out more about Kirstie's work here.Follow her on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTROKirstie: That's one of the things I really want to do, is just gently point out the things that we take for granted that we say are normal or natural, but they're not. They're totally constructed. Many of the things that we just take for…oh yeah, pink and blue. Pink is a girls' colour, blue is a boys' colour. We think of that as completely normal and it's totally made up and it's so recent.Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today I'm talking to Kirstie Beavan.Kirstie is the founder and editor of Sonshine Magazine, raising boys for a more equal world. Sonshine is a print and digital quarterly, as well as a social profile for parents who want to change the way we talk to and about our sons, to create a better society for all children.I've been so excited to share this episode. We recorded it a while back and I'm really glad that you're able to finally listen to it. It's such a great discussion about gender inequality and why seemingly innocuous things like how we dress our kids have really long term implications for their emotional development and the roles that they learn to occupy in society. Kirstie is a wealth of knowledge about the gendered history of kids clothing, which you won't be surprised to hear is entirely rooted in capitalism, rather than any real biological or physical differences between sexes. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation, and if you don't already, you need to get your hands on a copy of Sonshine Magazine, which is available in print and digitally. I'll link to it in the show notes so you can order yours. It would make a really lovely holiday gift for your co-parent or some other parents that you have in your life, maybe even for yourself. But before we get to today's episode, I'd love to tell you all about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter. And of course there are cool perks like being able to comment on posts, our Thursday threads, Snacky Bits, and exclusive posts on intuitive eating, weight inclusive health, and responsive feeding. But more than all of that, being reader and listener supported means I can better control who comes into this space. In other words, we can keep the trolls and the fatphobes out. And if they do sneak in, at least they've had to pay for the privilege, and I can still boot them out. Having control over who comes into the space is essential for creating a safe, nurturing space away from diet culture where we can discuss difficult topics like how we deal with diet-y friends, gender division of labour, and body shame. All the way through to more light hearted stuff like the weird shit that mummy influencers say. If you're still not convinced, then here's a recent testimonial from someone in the CIHAS community. So they wrote: “I wish I had access to the advice and information you share when my kids were little, but it's still valuable now that they're nearly adults for a couple of reasons at least. Firstly, having only been diagnosed as autistic in middle age, I have had a complicated relationship with food for most of my life. From childhood fussy eating, through stigma over my higher body weight and internalised fat phobia, to temporary success with dieting, followed by the inevitable return to my previous size. Your writing has helped me cast off many of my own hang ups about food, weight, and health, making me a better role model for my kids. Secondly, your advice helps me to support and advise my kids with their own food, health, and body image issues, and to advocate for them to family and friends. I believe in showing my appreciation for people who provide me with help and support, at least by saying thank you, and where possible, with feedback and or financially. I can't financially support everyone I'd like to all of the time. But I do what I can when I can. Thank you for all you do Laura.”So what are you waiting for? You can sign up today at laurathomas.substack.com or find the link in your show notes. It's £5 a month or £5 for the year and if you can't stretch that right now just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with the word “Snacks” in the subject line and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription. No questions asked. You can also gift a subscription to a friend for the holidays to give them unfettered access to the CIHAS community. I can even send you a gift certificate. Just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and we'll hook you up.  Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.All right team, let's get to today's conversation with Kirstie Beavan from Sonshine Magazine. MAIN EPISODEAll right, Kirstie, to start with, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?Kirstie: I'm Kirstie and I run Sonshine Magazine, which is a quarterly print and digital magazine and a social profile and community looking at raising.Laura: You said that with sort of like eyes rolled so we'll come back to that!Kirstie: I'm looking at raising boys for a more equal world so specifically it's parenting, thinking about parenting through the lens really of how we talk to and about our boys.Laura: Okay, and I'm curious to know, like, where this interest in gender equality comes from and like what spurred you to start a magazine about it?Kirstie: I think…so I've got two children and when my daughter was born, I think I felt more confident about how I was going to break down gender stereotypes for…I felt like, you know, I grew up in the 80s and 90s, which is a time of real flux in terms of how women were portrayed and expected to behave. It's a real…there's lots of progress and lots of backlash. And I think I felt – by the time I had my first child who happened to be a daughter – I felt quite confident about the things that I wasn't going to do and the stereotypes that I wasn't going to inflict on her and how I was going to help her navigate the world that I had already grown into womanhood through. And then two years later I had my son and I started to see that there were a lot of negative stereotypes associated with raising boys. And I felt like I had absolutely no model for managing that as a mother, not as a father, obviously. I just felt like, Oh, this is something I hadn't really considered or thought about. So I went to look for…where are the resources to help me parent a boy who I want to be able to grow up in a way that's free of the strictures of sort of gender stereotyping, but also who is going to be what we might now call a good man? You know, where are the resources for that? And I couldn't find any.Laura: Right. There wasn't a playbook.Kirstie: No, there's really few and far between. There weren't websites talking about it at the time. There weren't Facebook groups dedicated to this. There wasn't something that sort of scratched the itch that I had.And I had been working in content. I work mainly in the museums and gallery sector, working on the stuff that you see on the walls when you go into a gallery, like labels. Laura: I always wondered who wrote that stuff!Kirstie: Yeah, it was me. So that sort of stuff. So like presenting information for a general audience, that's been my job for a long time.So I was like, well, I'm a writer. I'm going to write one. I'm going to write the things that people needed, or that I needed really. And that's how I started.Laura: So you found that there weren't the resources that you as a new parent to a boy needed to help you navigate parenting that child in, so that they didn't grow up to be an asshole, basically. I think?Kirstie: Yes, exactly. I mean, yeah, partly that, but also partly because I noticed a lot of things about how my children interacted. Having an elder daughter and a younger son, I mean, I think it's the same if you…for many children, if you have an older sibling and a younger sibling quite close in age, that the younger one, is desperate to do all the things that the older ones do.So they're like, because, and I get it, like there's this person who's so close to you, but they're just better at everything than you are. So you're like, I just want to be them. Like that looks so good. And so she was like the leader. She was, you know, he was following her around, wanted to be just like her, wanted to wear her clothes, do the things that she liked doing, all of this stuff.And I sort of came to realise that I was really happy with this idea of my daughter. breaking stereotypes. I was really confident with this, like, Oh yeah, she's, you know…dress her in blues and darks and comfy clothes and all of that sort of stuff. And that seemed…that sat very easily with me. But when my son is saying, well, I actually want to wear a pink tutu, yeah, a dress and we're going to the shops. And I'm actually feeling a bit uncomfortable about that. Oh right, why am I feeling uncomfortable? I'm not uncomfortable about my daughter wearing trousers. I'm uncomfortable about my son wearing a dress. What is it in me? Because there's no problem for either of them. What is it in me that is the problem here?And having to confront that I have a problem with boys doing things that are feminine or coded as feminine. And what does that mean about how I feel about things being girly? Basically made me feel like, actually, that's not okay. That is something that I need to think about because the message I give to both my son and my daughter, if I don't want someone to be girly is because I think being girly is not aspirational because I think being a girl is not enough.So that is something that I felt like, Oh, that's work I have to do. That's work I have to unpick. And I'm the sort of person who likes information to unpick that stuff. And so there just wasn't that information out there to help me with that.  Laura:Yeah, that's so interesting that you, I guess, noticed that tension in yourself, because you're absolutely right.There's social acceptance of, for want of a better phrase, maybe like ‘tomboyishness', where girls can, you know, have names that are traditionally masculine names and they can wear trousers and they can climb trees and that's all very well, but we don't have the same leniency for boys who want to do things that are perceived as being ‘more feminine'.And I have the same thing. I have a three year old boy, you know, assigned male at birth, but you know, we try, we like…we let him wear the tutu to the shop and it is, there is a discomfort that I've noticed in myself that I have to work through and kind of push through and I just haven't gone to the lengths of creating an entire magazine about it!But I, I'm really impressed that you have to kind of work through your shit. You made a whole magazine about it. But I'm curious, like, why a magazine and not, say, a podcast or, you know, and I know you do a lot of stuff on social media, which we can also talk about, but why did that feel like the medium for you?Kirstie: I think it's partly because of the way my brain works. So I prefer to organize things. In a way where I, I'm thematically grouping things.Laura: Okay, yes. I just... I get that instinct very much.Kirstie: I just wanted it to feel like, I didn't want to write a diary, I didn't want to write a straight up blog. And I wanted it to be written content, that's where I feel most confident expressing my ideas.But I didn't want to share too much actually about my children. Because, because... My experience as a parent is my experience, but their experience of being a child is their experience and that felt like that's…their private. It's not for me to talk about that for them. Laura: Right. You don't want to commodify your child, you know, to make money and capital.Kirstie: That's not for me. That's not for me. And I didn't want to feel like I was sharing their lives without their permission, but also telling a story about their lives, which maybe isn't the story that they would tell later on. Yeah. So I wanted to sort of use what I'd noticed in my own experience of parenting to give me a jumping off point to think about lots of other things.And so it made sense to me to work it like a magazine. I started online. So I would publish a series of articles grouped around a theme: clothes, books, screen time, whatever it is. You know, looking at these things, but through this idea of what have I noticed in this space about gender stereotyping and the constraints placed on children time after time, but through lots of different themes.Laura: Yeah. So it becomes a lens to explore a particular topic.Kirstie: Exactly. And the magazine lends itself to that. So each magazine now has a theme and I collate articles around that theme. Yeah. But all with that thread that runs through them, thinking about how you might just. poke at the things that we take for granted.I think that's one of the things I really want to do is just gently point out the things that we take for granted that we say are normal or natural, but they're not. They're totally constructed. Many of the things that we just take for…oh yeah, pink and blue. Pink is a girl's colour. Blue is a boy's colour. We think of that as completely normal and it's totally made up and it's so recent that that has come into being.Laura: Oh, really? Do you know the history of that?Kirstie: Yeah, so basically up until the sort of 1800s, a bit later, all children are wearing white because...Laura: Why? That's, that's a terrible idea!Kirstie: Well, I guess it was probably grey, right? Laura: Yeah. Kirstie: But they're basically wearing stuff they can wash easily. You can produce it and wash it easily. So they're wearing simple, plain colours, stuff you can pass down. All children are wearing dresses until seven, five to seven.Laura: It sounds like it's really, like, utilitarian, right? Like is that the right word? Kirstie: Yes. Yes. It is a bit. So there's this idea that children's clothing is, well, there's lots of things at play and I'm not a fashion historian.Laura: For the purposes of this podcast, you are.Kirstie: So children are wearing clothes that can be washed easily, that are good for toilet training. They're good for, you know, being out and about, right? There is a movement to make children's clothes less constrictive. Particularly for boys, and that's sort of in the 1800s and French ideas around children should be allowed to be outside more and, you know, changing parenting ideals. What happens is that there's a boom in fabric production, which is obviously based on plantations of cotton and exploitation of enslaved people. It's also based on the industrial revolution in places like the UK, which means that using child labour and industrial processes. Cotton can be produced on a huge scale. So there's a lot of exploitation that goes into mass producing fabrics. And then simultaneously there's a movement in chemical production of pigments. So you can start to make colours for clothes. And once you can mass produce fabrics and you can actually cheaply produce colours, for clothes, for the fabric to make clothes on, you know, you can have a boom in fashion for men, for women, and also for children, kids. There's a sort of like, Oh, actually. As a marketer, you know, as a producer of cloth, I want to sell more of this stuff. So as a marketer, what tools have I got at my disposal for that? So one of the things is, you don't want people to hand clothes down. So you don't want people to pass clothes just down and down and down. You want to make them so that they can't be passed on and they have to buy a whole new outfit every time their child grows. So it's building consumption into the processes. And so you come up with reasons for people to buy different things. So by the 1930s, 1940s, people are sort of thinking, Oh, how can we sell more of this stuff? So by the 1940s, there were catalogues going round the department stores and stuff like that saying, ‘these are the clothes that you should buy', ‘this is our new season,' ‘this is what everyone is wearing this season'. And it's the same for children's clothes. And they're looking at ways at dividing the children's clothes market by colour. So some of the catalogues produced around that time are saying pink is for brown eyed infants, because that's better for their complexion. And blue, you know…so all of these like weird things, but pinks and blues, but the idea was: pastels were the best ones for the children. And then someone comes up with it…there's a, I forget what it's called, but you can find a pamphlet, if someone comes up with the idea that pink should be for the girls and blue should be for the boys, though you can find other ones, other catalogues and fashion plates that suggest that pink is a stronger colour because it's associated with the red coats that men would have worn in battle, blah, blah, blah, that that should have been the colour for boys. Just made up, basically. Just all made up. Pink and blue is all made up. But it's stuck. And it's stuck with us. And pink got cemented as a feminine colour. By…now I don't want to get it wrong, but I'm going to say Mamie Eisenhower, who was the first lady in the 1940s, and she redecorated the White House and with all these special pink bathrooms and was her favorite colour. And it became sort of cemented, this idea of baby pink as being really feminine, definitely coded girly colour. And ties in with lots of other ideas around femininity that come in through the 1950s.Laura: Yeah, well, you may not be a fashion historian, but I really enjoyed that little foray into understanding, yeah, the, I mean, just the super problematic history that that what we feel is so ‘normal', was built on.Like, you didn't have to scratch the surface, barely at all, to find the colonialism, the violence, the capitalism, like, the effects of all of these things on. Yeah, how we end up ultimately dressing our kids today and what is coded as feminine, what is coded as masculine…and yeah, I remember when, when Avery was born just me and my husband like eye rolling anytime we got a blue card in the post, you know, like there was just like a sea of blue and we really appreciated our friends who'd like, who knew us really well and went out of the way to, to find a card that wasn't blue.And that's just, that's just such a small, like, meaningless thing in the grand scheme of things, like the colour of your baby card, but you know, there are repercussions to how we dress kids and I think this is something that you talk about so well, not just in terms of like the colour of the clothes – although that I think is, is important as well – but also just like the practicalities of dressing our kids. Maybe practicality isn't the right word, but I guess the functionality of how we dress our kids. And I think you've kind of got a bit of a reputation on Instagram for being the ‘pants lady'.So I'd love you to talk a little bit about that, like what your research has found when it comes to, not just pants, but just generally the discrepancies between clothing for girls and clothing for boys.Kirstie: Yeah. I mean, it's a dubious claim to fame, isn't it? The ‘pants lady'.Laura: I would take it. It's a great moniker to have.Kirstie: I mean, that is…some of the stuff that I've talked about is, that's one of the key things, I think, because people really notice it. It started because my daughter asked for a pair of pants with dinosaurs on them. And this is when we were potty training and I thought, great, dinosaurs, that should be easy. And then she'll want to wear them. And then potty training would be much easier. Yeah. And I went looking for them and I couldn't find any girls pants that had dinosaurs on them. Laura: It doesn't surprise me, but… Kirstie: No, I mean it is a bit better now. This is eight, nine years ago. Yeah, so I couldn't find any, and then I found some boys ones and I thought, oh, well she doesn't know.And then I got them home and I was so shocked to get them out of the packet and find that they were bigger, roomier. They were beautifully…they had these incredible overlocked seams, all the elastic was covered. I noticed that they were about, they were two centimeters bigger in the waistband, basically, than the girls pants, same brand, and were made of a thicker, higher grade cotton. They just were better. They just were loads better. And so I thought, well, maybe that's just the, this is just an anomaly that I've picked up. Because you know, often when you go to a shop, you can pick up two things that are the same size, but actually when you try them on, they're not quite the same. They're different. So there's all of that. So I thought, well, maybe this is it. But actually having looked into it now over the last eight years, that is across the board that the girls' pants in particular are cut to a smaller pattern than the boys pants, and they're made with flimsier fabric. They're more badly made. They're itchy. They've got this lacy trim. They're made with a lighter weight cotton, which has less stretch and give. They're cut shorter in the backside, so they don't come up as high. So this is comparing girls briefs with boys briefs. They have a narrower gusset. So they're more likely to ride up your backside, basically, give you a wedgie.Laura: Ah, is that why that happens? Because of the size of the...Kirstie: Yes, because of how it's cut across the bottom.Laura: Yeah, yeah. No, I can, I can imagine it. As someone who has, like, a lot of problems finding... Like decent underwear. Yeah, like don't get me started on how far downhill M&S underwear has gone over the past few years.Kirstie: Totally agree.Laura: But yeah, I guess I just, I hadn't thought of it…because that was going to be my next question for you was like, so what, right? What's the big deal here? And I think you've already kind of answered it, but it looks like you've got more to say, so…Kirstie: Yeah, I have got more to say. Because the big deal, actually, what it made me realise is that a significant proportion of our children are going to school wearing an uncomfortable piece of underwear. So many people, when I post about this on Instagram, so many people say to me, ‘Oh, my daughter is always getting a wedgie'. ‘My daughter is always complaining that her pants are uncomfortable'.I find it myself, I find the seams and labels inside clothing can be really irritating. Yeah. Giving this advice to oh, just wear them inside out, blah, blah, blah. No! Just let's make..Laura: Buy the boys ones, Kirstie: Kids deserve to be comfortable and it made me think how different my life would have been if I had been wearing clothes that were comfortable, if I'd been wearing clothes that weren't for looking at but were for playing in.It's not just pants actually, it comes across all areas of children's clothing. So you see it in girls' trousers versus boys' trousers. You're more likely to find a knee reinforcement in a boy's trouser than you are in a girl's trouser because the expectation is that boys are harder on their trousers than girls.Well, yeah, I mean, obviously you are if your pants aren't riding up your bum all the time. And also, if your shoes…so if you look at the difference between girls' shoes and boys' shoes, you'll see that boy's shoes tend to have a thicker sole. They tend to be waterproof. They tend to be made with a toe cover so that you can climb or run more easily.And if you look at girls' shoes, particularly noticeable in very, very little toddler shoes and school shoes. You'll see that the girl's shoes come with really thin soles, no grip. They often have holes in the top, so they're not really waterproof. They're often made of patent leather, so they're shiny, so they…you can't scuff them up. I mean, you will scuff them up and then you'll be in trouble. So what is what you say? So what? The thing is, it's all based on our expectations of children, our expectations as adults on children. It's nothing to do with whether they, as individuals…what they like doing. You know, if you've got a child that likes running, they like running. It's not whether they're a boy or a girl, it's whether they like running. If you've got a kid that feels more regulated, if they've climbed something and swung on something, it's not because they're a boy or a girl, it's just who they are. That's what their bodies are asking for. But we are channeling them societally down these routes, down these expected routes of you should be more active and you shouldn't be more active just simply based on your genitalia. And it does actually have impact on children. You can see it if you go to any primary school, you can see who's taking up the space in the playground and it is 90% likely to be the boys.Laura: And that wasn't a…in case it came across this way, it wasn't an accusatory…it was meant to be a provocative question because I am 100% with you on this.And I think you articulated it so beautifully when you said, you know, we're setting a precedent, we're setting an expectation that girls clothes are to be looked at and are there to be pretty, whereas boys clothes are designed to be functional and for movement and yeah, to let them really be…engage in a full variety of experiences that we're inadvertently excluding girls from, right?Movement, getting messy, getting scuffed up, getting dirty, whatever, whatever it is.Kirstie: Yeah, it's two sides of the same coin, actually, because you see it with girls that the expectation is that their clothes will be pretty and good to look at. And I particularly don't want to have…in my children's underwear, I particularly don't want to have my daughter thinking that her underwear needs to be good to look at, right? It's gross.Laura: It's a really disturbing thought when you, like, think about the kind of the implications there.Kirstie: Yeah, yeah. It's actually like, what in the world? Children's underwear should just be functional. It should cover up their genitalia.Laura: Maybe it should have days of the week on it. It could, yeah, I'm up for that.Kirstie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm up for that. I'm up for patterns. I'm up for that. I'm up for, like, things on the front so you know which side to get into. Yeah, that's all of that. But it doesn't need to be cut small. It doesn't need to be low rise. It doesn't need to be... skimpy in the gusset. Like none of that is necessary for children's clothing. Laura: It needs to be functional. Kirstie: It needs to, it just needs to do its job. Yeah. And I…and you could even argue that the people most likely to be wearing a skirt are girls. So the children who really need the big pants are the girls. So why is it, when I go to the shops, that the girl's pants are miniscule? Laura: Well I wonder if it goes back to capitalism, because if you've got skimpy pants…you know I'm thinking of this from the perspective of a marketer, if I've got skimpy pants, then I can also sell a pair of shorts to go under the dress. Yeah. This is the only explanation that I could come up with.Kirstie: I mean I have been and interviewed some people who've worked in childrenswear, and a lot of them were like….Oh. We've never thought of this because childrenswear is not a thing conceived of in many big shops. It's not conceived of as childrenswear. It's conceived of as girls and boys and they take their cues from womenswear and menswear. And so they're taking maybe what is the best selling hoodie, jersey weight in the menswear and then they're scaling that down for the boys. And then they're taking what is the best selling hoodie weight, say we're talking about sweaters, jersey for the women's and scaling that down for the girls.And they're not talking to each other necessarily. So it's a sort of vicious circle or a chicken and egg thing where menswear is generally heavier weight and more comfortable and womenswear is generally lighter weight and less comfortable. And the styles from menswear are going to come down into boyswear and the styles from womenswear....And that's the same for underwear. So when you look at women's underwear, that's actually what's going to be started to scale down. Lace trims, bows, the types of patterns that you'll see, crop tops, that sort of stuff is going to be scaled down for the girls underwear. And men's underwear is going to be scaled down for the boys. And I see that, but the fact is that children's bodies are not like men's and women's bodies.That is not... Clothes for children can be clothes for children. Until, really, a long way through their childhood. There's no reason to be making them different. Often when I post about this, and I say, here's a pair of jeans and the jeans for the boys, jeans in the boys' section, maybe are two inches bigger in the waist than the girls. And maybe they are…they've got more flex in the leg, and maybe they're also an inch or two longer in the leg than the girls. It's particularly noticeable in shorts, so when summer comes around, you'll see that the girls' shorts are tiny. And that starts from toddler age, so the toddler girls' shorts, which are often really nice, like they come in nice colours and nice prints and all of that sort of stuff, but they are cut inches shorter.Laura: They're teeny tiny. I remember you posted a reel about this over the summer and I'll link to it in the show notes because yeah, it's…yeah, you're basically dressing toddlers in hot pants.Kirstie: Yeah. The flip of the coin is that if you go into the boys section often you can only find things that are khaki, navy, black, burgundy, what I call sludge. Like you just get sludge colour, so you can't find the pretty prints or the…you can't find florals or butterflies or rabbits. My son loves rabbit, love rabbits for years and it's rabbits and cats…you can't have a rabbit if you're a boy. Because you can only have a shark. And then you think, oh, it's fine. I'll go and buy the rabbit top. It's in the girl's section. What does it matter? And then you get the rabbit top and it's cropped or it's got a cap sleeve or a boat neck, you know, so it's not so sun safe. It's not so easy. You know, it doesn't wash as well. It's very easy, I think, to say, this is obviously bad for girls. This is obviously bad for girls. It's obviously bad to create children's clothes that make girls feel that they are too big for their age. That is obviously bad. I can't see why we are doing this. I've had messages from people who've got boy girl twins who are the same size and if they buy a pair of joggers in the boys' section, so two pairs of joggers in the boys' section, they're enormous in the waist, age five to six. And if they go to the girls section and buy the similar joggers. They can't pull them up and these children are the same age and the same size and what does it do to you if by the time you're old enough to understand it, say you're seven, you can see the labels in your own clothes. What does it do to you to know that the age seven jeans are too tight for you? What does that do to you as a girl? What does it conversely do to you as a boy, if you're a slim boy? And you buy the age seven joggers and they're like a tent on you. And the expectation is that you ought to be bigger and you ought to be broader and you ought to be wider or taller. The expectations that this places on our children based only on their gender, you don't have to follow it very far to see how harmful it is.Laura: Yeah. I mean, there's so much to unpack there as well. Like I'm thinking of it through my lens as well, which is thinking about body image and these pretty arbitrary sizes do to kids' sort of body esteem, if they are, you know, maybe at the lower end of the growth curve or the higher end of the growth curve and they don't fit into that seven to eight, like maybe they're in 10 to 11 and the like the mismatch, I think, between ages and sizes of clothes. And I don't know what the workaround is, it's, it seems kind of like it's all wound up in this, it's a similar problem, right?Kirstie: I think so. I think so. I mean, I think the workaround is what they do in a lot of European countries is…it's not, it's not done by age. It's done by height.Laura: Oh, height. Okay. Yeah.Kirstie: It's a measurement. And I think it's really telling, that if you ask a man what size he is, he'll give you a measurement. Yeah. So if you want to buy a pair of jeans as a man, you're buying a size, an actual size.Laura: X centimetres or inches.Kirstie: 32 inch waist, whatever it is, right? That's a measurement. And if you know what your measurement is, you can buy the right size. But as women, you ask what size we are, we have to give a random number. It doesn't equate to any measurement. Except to make you feel bad. And I think that sort of permeates the landscape of children's clothing.This idea of functionality, that actually clothes are made for comfort and what they can do for you. And what they…they'll just be made to whatever size that you need. That your clothes actually…comfort is the least important thing on the list for women's clothes, often. I mean, I feel like underwear in particular.I'm starting to enter into the preteen world. Yeah. It's really made me question a lot of things. Like this idea that when I was a kid, I guess I was 12, 11 or 12, and we went to get a training bra. And I thought about this… training bra? I thought, what's it being trained for? And I thought I was being trained because bras are really uncomfortable.So to get you used to wearing a thing makes your body more palatable to society's view of what women's bodies should look like. It's not on my horizon yet, but it's something that I've got to have a thought aboout. Laura: How do you have that conversation? Kirstie: Yeah, I don't actually know how I feel about that.Laura: Yeah, I mean, that's a really tricky one.I don't know. I don't know if I've added an unanswerable question to that. Yeah, no, but it is, it's, it's just not something that I've ever given any consideration to. And I think what feels probably really sticky about it is that, you know, you can have these conversations with your kid about, you know, whatever, like some man invented a bra to make our bodies more palatable.I don't actually know if it was a man. I'm making this up, but you probably do know the history of bras as well. I think I read, I read like a really interesting article about it once before, and I, and I really can't remember now, but the list of questions that I was going to ask you is completely gone out of the window. But no, it's great. But yeah, you know, you can have these conversations and you can, like, help your kid feel really empowered to not wear a bra or to wear a bra or to like make their own choice or, you know, about the type of bra that they wear if they choose to wear one. And, but then, you know, they go to school and all their friends are wearing, you know, these cutesy little training bras that probably actually do nothing. Yeah. Really. And so then you have to navigate, like, the social piece, with lining that up with, with your values and their values and it's their body. They ultimately…I think probably what we want to promote in our kids is body autonomy. Also that totally backfired on me the other day when my three year old was like, ‘I'm the boss of my body!' when he didn't want to get in the bath. Yeah, I mean, this is... I wasn't prepared for that. But, like, in general, you know, like, it backfires a lot when they're three and they don't want to get in the bath, but hopefully by the time they're, you know, 11, 12, and they're thinking about training bras, maybe a bit younger than that, even, that they...have a better sense of what their boundaries are around their bodies?Kirstie: Yes, I think so. I think they do. But I think there is, I think also the, the influence of peer pressure becomes so much greater then like…actually, you see that you see your influence declines as a parent, you know, you can lay them foundations, but they're coming to the point where what their peers are doing and thinking is really important.And they actually are going to have to navigate this like the foundation that you've laid in terms of what your family values are around bodies and body autonomy, but also, I hope, you know, like that word you used about body esteem. I think that's really great. But I also really like the idea that perhaps they don't think a lot about their bodies.Like, that's what I would really love for them. Laura: That's the dream. Kirstie: Yeah, but there's just a…that's not something that occupies their thoughts all the time. And I, we talked a lot about girls, but it is, it's really important for boys as well. The reason that I want to talk about boys is because it's like the missing piece of the puzzle.We want things to change for our daughters. You can see that the effects of gender stereotyping is,are really bad for women and girls. We have to have actual tasks…well, let's try that again, task force in government, exactly, for violence against women and girls. That's how big of a problem that is. 90% of the perpetrators of violence against women and girls are men. So we have to also be looking at men in that equation. This is not a women's problem. This is a societal problem, a problem across all, everywhere in society about how we treat men and women. And if we're not talking to the boys about equality, If we're only talking to the girls, we're only going to get half of the population changing.It has to be holistically talking to all of our children. And for me, it feels like that means we have to unpick some of that stuff where, you know, the boys are getting a bit of a privilege. You know, we're talking about clothes. That is a privilege for boys that their clothes are made for playing. But it's also, how do you treat a child if their clothes tell you something about them?So if you see a child and they're wearing a top, which has got a bunny wearing a flower crown, what do you, as an adult, think of that child, as opposed to seeing a kid standing next to them, that's wearing a T-Rex with blood dripping from its fangs, right? As adults, how do we treat those children? What are the expectations that we have? Oh, you're big, you're strong, man up, don't cry. You know, the expectations that…that just tiny little cue might give us the emotional connections that we might allow a boy or a girl. These things seem tiny, but they are played out in all sorts of places through society. And unless we allow boys to be warm, be empathetic, to be vulnerable, to be…wrong. You know, to get things wrong and not always be the best at something, you know, we have to allow them some of the things that we're happy to allow girls and the same way that we have to allow the girls some of the things that we're happy to allow the boys. And that's what leads to a more equal distribution as they get older.Laura: I'm really glad that you brought it back there. And I think what I appreciate the most is how you basically connected the dinosaur T-shirt, shark underpants to the toxic masculinity pipeline, right? Like that's, I think what…because I think it's all very well for us to sit here and be like, ‘Oh, girls pants are too small and dah, dah, dah, dah'. But if we can't frame that within the context of, you know, the bigger issues, which I think you do such a great job of bringing it back to, you know, the gender pay gap, for example, like you just did there, like…Well, you didn't say this, but I'm thinking about how male suicide rates are really, really high. Because, and maybe you have some better insight into, like, the statistics around this, but I know especially there was a big conversation about it a few years ago about, yeah, just just like the gender norms that we foist upon men and boys means that they can't express their emotions. They can't tell us when they're struggling, they can't be vulnerable.And I think a consequence of that is that they end up either taking it out on their own lives and ending their own lives, or they take it out on the women around them in the form of things like domestic violence, for example. Can you maybe speak just briefly to, like, yes, it's about pants, but it's about all these other things? You know, like the bigger picture things? Kirstie: Yeah. I mean, it is about pants in, in one way because it sort of lays the baseline. If you are comfortable in your clothes, perhaps you are running a bit faster at school, perhaps you do have a slight advantage in the playground, that sort of thing. Yeah.If your T-shirt says on it, ‘I'm a genius'. Perhaps someone says that to you every time you wear it. Perhaps someone says, ‘Oh yeah, you're a little genius'. And perhaps that's just popping into your head drip, drip, drip day after day. And if your sister's T-shirt says, ‘Isn't she lovely?' on it? LAURA: ‘I'm a princess'. ‘I'm a princess' or just even, I mean, it can be so subtle, you know, ‘Always Happy”'.If your T-shirt says “Always Happy” on it – I see that on so many T-shirts – what's that telling you about how you have to present yourself? So these just little drip drip drip messages, they make a difference. And it makes a difference in how we as adults therefore treat them. And then that gap between how they feel about themselves widens.And what they…they get this idea that they are opposites, instead of things that are really similar: humans. Yeah, humans. You get this idea that you're super, super different. Instead of this idea that everybody here has similarities and differences. And this is just one of them, being a boy and a girl. That's just one of the differences. And we don't separate children by any other characteristics. We don't go to the park and say, Come on brown haired children, time to go home from the park. Like, we just don't do it. There's no other characteristic that we yell out. In the playground. ‘Come on, boys!' So, you know, we make these binary distinctions really, really important.And then by the time they get into secondary school, there's all sorts of things going on. Like, 45% of girls in mixed sex secondary schools have experienced some sort of sexual harassment at school.Laura: I saw this on your Instagram the other day, and I just... It's, it's horrendous. I cannot, like…I mean, I can believe that, but also what?!Kirstie: Yeah, I mean, I…it gives me the fear so badly. Like, what world are we throwing our daughters into? But what world are we throwing our sons into where they think – well, there's a significant proportion of boys in the school that think it's okay to treat women in that way. And it comes back to this idea. This is, that's why this stuff matters. Because it comes back to this idea that if girls are there to be looked at and boys are there to do things. That's how it plays itself out there. So, girls are for looking at. They're not full humans. Boys are the ones that do things. So it doesn't matter if I stick my hand up your skirt, ping a bra strap, whatever it is.That's one pathway, but…as you call it, the toxic masculinity pathway. But the other one is actually...but you can see right through – this is unrelated to clothes really – but you can see right through that the way we talk about, or the way we talk to them, it differs. So studies show that if you know the sex of your baby before it's born, you're more likely to say that they're very active in utero. So you're more likely to use words like ‘active' or say, ‘Oh, got a little footballer in there. So much kicking'. So colours, your expectation colours, your experience of what you're seeing. And then you have a confirmation bias. So when your child does something that chimes with your ideas of what you think boys must like, you notice it more. So you see your boy playing with something with wheels and you're like, ‘Oh, he loves wheels'. I've heard that boys love wheels. You give them more wheels, you give them a lot of praise or excitement or interest. And it creates a feedback loop where they therefore, yeah, they are going to be more interested in this thing.You keep giving them and showing that you're really proud of them. But we also find that parents are less likely to use emotional language with sons than they are with daughters. When they read books together, they're more likely to talk about, what do you think this character's feeling with a daughter than they are with a son?And in fact, the National Education Union did a survey where they looked at preschool, what were the activities that parents were more likely to do with their children, and they broke it down by gender. And parents are more likely to do singing, reading, painting, and expressive things with their daughters. And the only thing that they were more likely to do with the son was sport.Laura: You think about how we are inadvertently training girls to do the emotional labour. And by not teaching boys how to do it, we're double burdening girls with it. Kirstie: It's exactly that. That's exactly it. And we are expecting girls to behave prosocially.So girls are more likely to be punished for what we could call anti-social behavior…but not sharing. Not being kind, that sort of thing. We are more likely to punish, but whatever form that takes, you know? I'm not suggesting that…punish always sounds like a corporal punishment. But actually to come down heavily on…you know, you've gotta share, you've gotta do that.And we are less likely to reward boys for the pro-social stuff. So when boys are sharing or being kind, we are less likely to say, ‘Oh, he's so good at sharing'. Yeah. You know, that's just a thing that people are less likely to say. So there's exactly, that we expect…the expectation that girls will do a little bit more of that emotional labour, but it comes into school where they can, they've been able to see that boys come with a more limited emotional vocabulary.So they're less able to name their feelings and therefore, once you can name a feeling, you can process it. And if you haven't got the skills to name it, you haven't got the skills to process it. So then you see a third more boys are excluded from school. The stat you were talking about, about suicide. So suicide is still the biggest killer of men under 50.And that speaks to not just a crisis in mental health, men's mental health, because I would say there was a crisis in mental health in general, but in the way that it is expressed and dealt with, and men and boys are less likely to reach out to ask for help. So Childline counsel more girls than they do boys, though the same number of them may be having suicidal ideation thoughts. They're more likely to talk to girls about it than they are to talk to the boys about it, and that is seen in the suicide rates, the death by suicide rates for boys. It being significantly higher for male than girls.Laura: It's so horrendous, like, yeah, as a parent of a boy and, yeah, married to one as well, like, a man, yeah, just hearing that is, it's heartbreaking.Kirstie: I suppose the only other thing I would think is worth mentioning, I don't want people to go away feeling like it's doom and gloom because I think It only takes tiny changes, I think.Laura: I mean, I struggle with this a bit because ultimately it's a social issue. And so, I don't want to put everything on individual parents, like we need to change school policy, we need to change…God, even before that, preschool! My preschooler came home the other day, or we were playing in the playground, and he was like, no girls allowed in. And I had to like, I had to stop the play and be like, Let's talk about how we don't exclude people from playing. And I've, like…he had been at nursery for, like, two weeks before this happened. I was mortified. Where are you getting this? It's before they even get to school is what I'm trying to say.Kirstie: Yeah, and I think it peaks actually around six or seven, that really binary thinking, because they want to find their groups, that's like developmental science, like they're coming away from their parents, they want to find their groups, they do want to fit in actually, it's really hard to not fit in.Laura: Yeah, no, it's an evolutionarY…what's the word that I'm looking for? Like, it's evolutionary adaptive to be part of the group. If you're excluded from the group, you're more likely to get eaten by a predator, or like……I'm putting it in really, really simplistic terms there. But, you know, it's this conversation I have with my clients who are coming to see me about, you know, problems with, with body image.  I mean, problems with body image...! But I mean, you know, when they're struggling with how they feel about their body and they say, you know, I just want this last diet. I…you know,  can't let go of the idea of losing weight. And I'm like, well, of course not, because you're more likely to be accepted when you have thin privilege.  And all the privilege that that gives you access to. And that has an evolutionary basis, right? To be accepted, …there's safety in that group. So yeah, the exact same thing……sorry, that was just a massive tangent for me to talk about myself and my work, but…Kirstie: No, I mean, it's... but that's really important because it's all the same thing, isn't it?Because it's exactly…it's all tied up. Like you say, it's like a societal thing. It's so hard to fight against that. Like, I don't always want to be the person who steps out, speaks up. I mean, sometimes I can't help it. That is who I am. But you know, when I'm standing at the school gate, I just want to be friends. I want to make friends. I don't want to be giving people an earful about everything all the time. So it's the same for our children, isn't it? They want to slot in. I think the things that we can do that change that is try and reduce those divisions. I think putting our children in very, very different clothes based on their gender tells them that we think it's really important. So I think there's lots of things that we can do that just reduce those barriers. And I do think that it is a question of changing policies within schools. And I do think it is also maybe shielding them as much as you can from books or TV programs or…I mean, it becomes impossible to be honest, but that, yeah, it's really hard things that don't constantly drip those messages into their heads. And it's really, really hard because they are absolutely everywhere. But if you're aware of it, you keep an eye on what you're reading with them or what you're watching with them or what you're seeing in the supermarket. You know, if you've just got that little thing running in the back of your head thinking, ‘would I let both my kids wear this'? That's one of the questions I ask myself. And the answer has to be yes, I would let both of my kids wear this. One of the questions I ask in the back of my head, like, does this paint everybody in a good light? Like when you're watching Peppa Pig, is Daddy Pig painted in a good light? What do you think it does to little boys to see that? Just think about that for a second. Like what is it when you're watching...Laura: I've given a lot of thought to this.Kirstie: Yeah, I'm sure you have.Laura: Yeah, I wrote recently about – it's from a different angle – but the horrendous anti-fatness in Peppa Pig. And just how...harmful that show is but I hadn't thought of it, because I try and avoid it if possible, but like I hadn't thought of it from the gender perspective as well as, like the lens…Kirstie: Daddy Pig is portrayed inevitably as an idiot. Yeah. And I just think that doesn't do anything good. But on that, I mean, I think it's really interesting now to see how the idea of talking about bodies…We watch Strictly as a family and that's one of the things that my kids enjoy watching and it's hard to find things that everybody can watch together. And there is so much good representation now in the past few years in Strictly, you know, in terms of same sex couples, in terms of people who are openly gay, like, in terms of people from all different backgrounds and ethnicities, like, that's doing a great job, I think. But we watched the opening show and two of the men talked about how they were overweight. “A bit squashy,” one of them said, something like that, talked about, Oh, well, this is going to be hard for me because I've got a problem with weight. And I thought, I think if a woman was saying this, we would be listening to this in a different way. And we would be thinking about how we could positively respond. I think the conversation around body positivity, which is something I feel a bit uncomfortable about, but I think that conversation for women is at least happening. And I feel like that conversation is more complicated and perhaps nuanced for men because we've had this thing about the dad bod, but equally, I was interested to see that people were like talking about their bodies in this…the disparaging their own bodies. In this show that I think of as not being a…that sort of thing, and it fell down gender lines.Laura: That…it's a really interesting observation. I haven't paid much attention to Strictly, but I think just more broadly speaking, I think – and it ties into kind of just not being able to express themselves, maybe in the same way or talk about the things that are bothering them, but also the shifting roles of body image pressures, I suppose, for men and boys. But I did – I'll link to this in the transcript as well – but so I spoke with Dr. Scott Griffiths, who's a psychologist and a body image researcher about sort of the shifting way that the male bodies are perceived and, and kind of the growing pressure and expectation of them to have this ripped, shredded body to the point that we are now seeing, in older sort of teens, we're seeing something called muscle dysmorphic disorder, so a body dysmorphic disorder, it sort of sits between a body dysmorphic and eating disorder.Generally, boys who struggle with it consider themselves to be like insufficiently muscled and really lean and scrawny and they, they want to bulk up and, and get big and strong, like, you know, all the messages that they've been receiving since they were one and two and three years old. And so they end up…on the really extreme end of it, they might inject testosterone [I MEAN STEROIDS HERE!]. It can lead to infertility. It can, it can lead to all sorts of really, really. hugely problematic things. And again, if I just wonder about, you know…it's, it's acceptable for women to talk about how they struggle with their bodies for better or worse. And we obviously have a sort of counterbalance to that in the, the body positivity, body acceptance movement, but that doesn't exist for men.There is no body positivity for men or…like, there is, but there's a few, you know, a few people talking about it.Kirstie: You could argue that because it hasn't been necessary till now because it has been less of a concern societally for people to police men's bodies. But now we're finding ourselves in this highly visual culture where people are policing everybody's bodies.And simultaneously, like you say, we're asking little boys to conform to these really rigid rules about what it means to be a man or look like a man.Laura: And we're giving them like, if you think back to like what a Ken doll looks like, to what a G.I. Joe or like…I don't know if kids play with them anymore, but you know what I mean?Kirstie: What they do play with is Spider Man or Hulk or Batman or, you know, all of these figures, they are all hyper muscled. And if you watch those Marvel films, those are idealised bodies and the idealising for boys and men is to have these bulging biceps and to have a six pack and things that actually aren't…you know, if you ever hear a film, a film star talking about what they have to do to look the way they do.You know, if you ever heard Hugh Jackman talking about what it was like to be Wolverine, that is not okay. It's punishing. It's absolutely punishing. He didn't drink for days on end. You know, really, he was at the limits of what you can do and still be alive and turning up for work and doing specific sort of flexes and the pressure then that that could put on you if you were the, you know, if you're susceptible to, like you say, injecting hormones or steroids and the fact that that stuff is very reasonable, you know, very easily available or to be buying protein powders and being told on TikTok that you, you too can bulk up, you could, yeah, but actually your genetics are playing a part in this.You can't. Yeah. Bodies are different.Laura: So, so much playing, playing into that. And Kirstie, I feel like we could talk for hours about this stuff. And I, I'm, I'm really conscious about your time. It's a...Kirstie: Yeah, so I've got to go and pick my children up from school! Laura: Okay. So, okay. There is one burning question that I have for you, which is...I don't know if you have this, like, data, but do dads read your magazine?Kirstie: Well, that's a good question. So I don't have this data. What I can tell you is, from my social media account is that it's like 90% women. That's slightly to do with Instagram. Instagram skews towards women. Yeah. This is a question that I get asked a lot: why don't more men write for you? So men are less likely to pitch me. And I think you'll find that men talking about parenting often have daughters. Yeah. And I do get it because I think when you have a daughter as a man, you have the same experience that I talked about where I suddenly was like, Oh, I don't know what it is like to be a boy in this world. I haven't done that. Oh, I see some of the things that you're going to run up against. I think that realisation for some fathers can be huge. Yeah. I think it can be absolutely massive for them. I think they can realise a lot about their own previous experiences to see that. And I don't like the fact that they have to have a daughter for this to happen to them.But they suddenly realise, Oh, I see how you're going to be treated in this world and I do not like it. And I want to talk about parenting now.Laura: I was just going to say, you have a much more generous interpretation of it than I do, which I think is that, and maybe – and I don't think it's one or the other, it's probably both – but I also think that this just speaks to the point that we were making earlier, which is that so much of the emotional labour of raising children falls on women.Kirstie: Yes, I mean, I think that is true, that basically who buys parenting books is women, who worries and feels mum guilt? It's women. We don't, I, I mean, I haven't, I spend a lot of time on the internet, but I haven't seen loads of men talking about dad guilt. I haven't heard a lot of men saying how hard they find it to manage their children's emotional development throughout, through our difficult society.Like that isn't a thing that a lot of men are talking about. It's not the case that no men are talking about it. So there are some prominent men who talk about this stuff. It doesn't fit with our societal narratives. So, I mean, I would recommend anybody to read, Robert Webb's, How Not to Be a Boy. I've really enjoyed that book. There's a really interesting, it's a half memoir, half…Laura: Like parenting?Kirstie: …musing on, well, yeah, it was useful in parenting, I think, in terms of he talks about how he would like to raise his children, bearing in mind what he's done. I would recommend Grayson Perry's book, The Descent of Man. That's a great small book. And it's, he's just got such a really great way of pinpointing the sort of weirdnesses of gender, like there's so many…and he's funny as well and warm, isn't he? He even made a TV programme that went along with that. Those books are relatively old, but I think they have a lot to say. I mean, Justin Baldoni, I don't know if you know him, he was in Jane the Virgin? If you've ever seen that. He was like the beefcake guy, I can't remember, he was called Raphael I think. He's written a book about how hard it was for him growing up and how much he struggled with his own body image. And the expectations placed on him as a young man and how hard he found it to be vulnerable and when someone showed him pornography when he was 12 or younger, he, you know, how he couldn't tell his parents and didn't know how to deal with this.And, you know, so there are some people talking about this, but they are so few and far between. And also it doesn't fall into the easy categories, I think, that we find it, that marketers find it easy to sell, that book publishers see the obvious opportunities, you know. And I think, you're right, men as a general rule aren't being asked to think about this. How are they going to change the world for their sons? Laura: Oh, well, you've given some really cool resources for us to check out and buy for our baby daddies! Right. For Father's Day or whatever, Christmas, whatever's coming up, where are we, what is time? And I think, you know, the work that you're doing is so critical as well and getting these conversations started and just thinking about, you know, like the little things like pants and how they have these huge repercussions.So Kirstie, before I let you go…at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been really into lately. So it can be a book, it can be…which you've just given us lots of books! But it could be something not to do with work. It could be an actual snack. It can be a podcast, anything that you would like to recommend to the listeners.Kirstie: I had a long think about this. And the thing is, I was thinking that in terms of my actual snacks, I do not have a sweet tooth. Oh, I know this is very…but basically I just want savoury things all the time. So the snacks that I have been snacking on is, I mean, I just eat crisps. I just love crisps.Laura: No shame in the crisp game.Kirstie: Just love crisps. But the thing that I've been really snacking on recently is miso soup. Laura: Miso. Oh, yum. Kirstie: Yeah. Because I, what I really crave in the middle of the day. Is like a hit of that salt. Salty, yes. Salty. Tasty. It feels like a hot velvet drink and so I'm always delighted when it's got cold enough. I feel like, yes, it's soup time. And so that's like my hit of salty deliciousness.Laura: Oh my God, that sounds so good. Actually, I never thought of just…I love miso soup, but like usually when I'm eating Japanese food. Yeah. I never thought of just like…cause you can get like, do you make up miso soup like with miso paste or do you do, like, the instant sachet stuff?Kirstie: I do have the paste, which I just stick in everything because I want everything to taste like that basically. But I bought powdered ones. And they are brilliant.Laura: And yeah, you just fill it up with the boiling water and…?Kirstie: Yeah, it's like two o'clock in the afternoon. I've had my lunch. And eat something else that's delicious.Laura: A little miso pick me up.Kirstie: A little pep me up.Laura: Yeah. Oh, yum. Okay, that's making me hungry just thinking about that. So I am going to be your inverse. And I am

Today on the podcast I'm joined by Dr. Molly Moffat - A GP who practices medicine from a weight inclusive, neurodiversity affirming lens, celebrating both diversity of bodies and of minds. In this episode, we are talking about how Molly moved away from recommending diets and weight loss to her patients, towards an anti-diet, weight-inclusive approach, focused on treating individuals with care and compassion. We get into what exactly medical anti-fat bias is and why it's so harmful, and she has some really lovely suggestions for how to talk to patients who come in with the idea that they have to lose weight for medical reasons. Find out more about Molly's work here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTRO:Molly: Fat folk don't go and see their doctor when they need to. And you know, I don't need to explain why that is a concern. That is a concern. It means that diagnoses are missed, diagnoses are made late, and it absolutely contributes to stress, mental health, physical health and health inequity in an already marginalised group of people.Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk all about appetite, bodies and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today I'm talking to Dr. Molly Moffat. Molly is a GP with a special interest in learning disability and autism. She practices medicine from a weight inclusive, neurodiversity affirming lens, celebrating both diversity of bodies and of minds. She's neurodivergent herself and has three children. In this episode, Molly and I are talking about how she moved away from recommending diets and weight loss to her patients towards an anti diet, weight inclusive approach, focused on treating individuals with care and compassion. We get into what exactly medical anti-fat bias is and why it's so harmful, and she has some really lovely suggestions for how to talk to patients who come in with the idea that they have to lose weight for medical reasons. I really loved talking to Molly and I think you're going to enjoy this episode.But before we get to today's conversation, I want to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter and community. Now, I know we're not used to having to pay for content on the internet. and why would you pay for something where 85% of the content is free anyway?Well, because without paying supporters, this work just wouldn't be possible. None of the newsletter, not the podcast. As well as supporting me in the time it takes to research, interview contributors, and write articles, your support goes towards paying guests for their time and their labour, as well as a podcast and a newsletter editor, so it's a whole team effort.You also help me keep the space ad and sponsor free, so I don't have to sell out to advertisers or exploit my kid for freebies. Plus, keeping the community closed to paying subscribers only means that we keep the trolls and the fatphobes out. I recently asked the CIHAS community why they support the newsletter, and this is what one reader had to say:“I'm a mum of one fairly adventurous, self proclaimed vegetarian and one theoretical omnivore. The latter survives almost exclusively on added sugar and butter, but mostly sugar. I consumed all the picky eating advice, some of it really well meaning and pretty mellow, but by seven years in, I was more frustrated, confused, and full of self doubt than ever.Enter CIHAS. The no nonsense, cut through the bullshit, science backed content is exceptional. The content about sugar is especially helpful to me, and the anti diet lens is an antidote to my extremely anti fat/diet culture conditioning. And as an American, the British references are just an added bonus. To say your work is actively changing my life is not an understatement. Thank you.”Well, thank you to the reader who sent that really lovely review. Becoming a paid subscriber is a fiver a month or £50 for the year. And you get loads of cool perks as well as just my undying gratitude for supporting my work. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to subscribe now.  All right, team, here's my conversation with Dr. Molly Moffatt. MAIN EPISODE:Hey Molly, can you start by telling us a little bit about you and the work that you do? Molly: Sure, yes. So I'm a GP, although I actually only do one day of general practice at the moment. I have a special interest in learning disability and autism. I've been working in that field for a few years, and I've recently started working in paediatrics, doing some neurodevelopmental assessments, and I also do some teaching for medical students. The reason I'm here is because I do my very best to practice in a weight inclusive manner, so I'm not worried about fat bodies, but I'm really worried about the way fat bodies are treated, particularly when they're trying to seek healthcare.Laura: Yeah, that's what you're here to talk about today, but I feel like we could probably have a whole other conversation about neurodivergence and feeding differences and all of that stuff, but I will try and rein myself in because, yeah, like you said, I really wanted to talk to you about how fat bodies are perceived and how they're treated in medical settings.So I'm wondering if you could kind of take us on a bit of a journey with you. Can you set the scene for us? You're a medic, straight out of training, going into your GP specialisation. At that point, what do you believe to be true about the relationship between weight and health?Molly: Okay. So I mean, all of my medical school teaching, all of my junior doctor training, and my GP training was absolutely based in this weight normative approach.So the idea that weight was a marker of health, and that we should be pursuing weight management for our fat patients. And there was never any discussion around where that came from. So, you know, it was just stated as a fact that ‘ob*sity' came with all of these comorbidities and put people at increased risk of X, Y, and Z.And, like I say, I never remember – and I'm really confident it didn't happen – any discussion around where the evidence behind those statements came from, and the fact that actually...it was really complex and that maybe there were some other factors at play that cause that association between body size and certain diseases.And I also never remember any conversation about weight stigma and the impact that that can have on people's health.Laura: Okay. Well, there's so much that I could kind of, like, tease out of what you just said there, but I think the sort of headline for me is just how this information was presented to you as complete certainty. I think if I'm kind of reading between the lines, or what I've even learned in my own training, that as weight goes up, the worse the health outcomes, right? Like in this linear sort of fashion. It sounds as though you learned something similar, but the evidence behind that was never really presented or unpacked or challenged in any way.And that's the part that I find most, like, terrifying because as medics you should be, like, challenging the evidence and not just, like, swallowing it whole and, you know, swallowing information whole and not kind of having any critical thought around it.Molly: I know, I agree. And of course there were things that we critically appraised and we were taught how to critically appraise, but the world of ‘ob*sity' was just something that was presented as a fact.And I feel so sad that I kind of missed out on all of those years of a greater understanding of how complex it was.Laura: You also mentioned weight stigma, which we'll come back to in a second, but coming back to this idea of how complex it is. So what were some of those messages that you received that oversimplified the relationship between weight and health?You know, I've kind of mentioned this idea that as weight goes up, that health invariably goes down. I'm wondering what other kinds of things that you picked up on that sort of reinforced those ideas.Molly: Yeah, I mean, absolutely kind of ‘eat less and move more' was something that we spouted. And, you know, when we were kind of practicing role play scenarios, one of the tick boxes was ‘give lifestyle advice'.Part of that was, you know, absolutely eat less and move more. And, you know, assumptions around a person's lifestyle and diet again was very much part of that message. That people were fat because they didn't exercise and they ate too much.Laura: And then they also lie to you, right, about how much they've eaten?That's…at least, that's the thread that we got in nutrition training, is that people who are higher weight, they're almost always lying about their dietary intake. And so you are already…I mean, think about how problematic that is, that you're already going in with the assumption that this person is lying to you about, you know, their lived experience, like, what does that do from the perspective of forming any kind of therapeutic relationship to go in with that understanding and assumption?Molly: Yeah, no, I agree entirely and, you know, let's think about when people are presenting to a healthcare setting, they're generally a bit nervous and anxious and feeling quite vulnerable and they are essentially quite powerless in that situation. And then imagine that they're also giving you information and telling you about their lifestyle and that's being doubted. It's horrible, isn't it?Laura: Yeah, it's really, really messed up when you slow it down and think about it. I'm wondering if there were any particular moments or specific patients that you remember that started to change that understanding a bit for you? That kind of threw a kink in that really simple narrative of ‘weight equals health', and ‘calories in equals calories out' and you know, we just need to go on a diet and then everyone will be thin?Molly: Yeah, I mean, my path towards kind of health at every size was quite convoluted. And actually it began with an interest in lifestyle medicine. So I was feeling quite…Laura: Oh, a detour into lifestyle medicine! Okay. The plot thickens.Molly: Yeah, the plot thickens. Absolutely. So. You know, I was feeling quite demoralised by the fact I was seeing a lot of chronic disease and that people were not getting any better and they were coming back to see me and I was giving them lots of medications and, you know, often those medications would come with fairly significant side effects. And so I guess what lifestyle medicine offered me, or what I thought it offered me, was the opportunity to really get to the bottom of those problems without the need for medication and the kind of idea that prevention was better than cure.And it appealed to me from a holistic perspective, you know, this was an opportunity to kind of see the person as a whole, rather than just focusing on an individual symptom. So I was actually really excited and really motivated. But what I found with time was that, first of all, I became more uncomfortable with the dynamic that was being played out, which was me as this middle class professional who carried a significant amount of privilege telling people how to live their lives that with time felt more icky.And also that people weren't able to do all the things we were discussing, or if they did do…follow the advice that I was giving them, it wasn't really making them feel any better because, hey, you know, there are these things called social determinants of health, which actually great…you know, carry a greater significance than personal behaviours.Laura: I'm just wondering for people who maybe aren't familiar with like, the world of lifestyle medicine, if you could say a little bit more about that and kind of the type of advice that you were giving people, like when you say lifestyle advice, what exactly does that mean? And I understand it's like a whole range of things, but yeah, I'm curious to hear how you applied that in your practice.Molly: So, I mean, it was looking at kind of core areas. Those core areas were: sleep, stress management, nutrition, and exercise and, you know, within the nutrition arm, I'm really sad to say that weight loss played a part of that. And, you know, whilst I tried to make that as individualised as possible to the person in front of me, inherently, there is an element of elitism really with lifestyle advice, I feel that, again, just didn't really quite sit right with me. And I actually found myself feeling a bit irritated. If I'm honest, I was feeling irritated that people weren't doing what I was asking. And luckily I had the insight to acknowledge that, you know, that was a me problem, not a them problem.What I realised was that I wasn't really irritated with them. I was just really frustrated that, you know, here was what I thought was this chance to really make people's lives better. And actually it wasn't having the impact that I thought it would.Laura: It's almost as though…and this is totally my perspective and my, I think, a little bit of prejudice against lifestyle medicine.But there…it's kind of this underlying assumption that people need you to tell them what to do because they don't know any better.Molly: Yeah, they don't know. Oh, it's so patronising. Laura: Yeah. And it's like a kind of a knowledge deficit. Molly: Absolutely. Laura: When most people, they do understand the importance of sleep and they do understand, like, it's helpful to, like, move their bodies in some way and to eat some vegetables.Molly: Absolutely. That rings true so much with me. You know, I hear these conversations where people are talking about healthy weight management and you know, the suggestions are, well, ‘let's teach people how to cook'. And I just think, oh, for goodness sake. You know, it's so patronising to assume that people don't know how to cook and that you're kind of…it's this kind of saviour complex that, well, let's teach them how to cook because they don't know that and therefore their life's going to be okay.They do know how to cook, but what if they've, you know, got three jobs because they need to work three jobs in order to pay the bills? They don't have time to cook.Laura: What if they just don't like…because they've got their own cultural background, they cook food in a very different way than how you cook food or like there's a whole number of reasons why like that might just not only fall flat but It could be problematic for some people. You know, especially if they're like, well, ‘my doctor is telling me I need to do this, but this doesn't really align with either my values or you know, what I'm able to access or have time for the competing messages that I'm getting from within my family' or whatever it might be.So there's a lot of idealisation I think that goes on in the lifestyle medicine community and not a deep enough understanding of social determinants of health, like you said.Molly: I think that's the big, big part that's missing in lifestyle medicine and the recognition…recognition of the social determinants of health.Laura: Absolutely. And even just like the understanding that even if everybody did eat whatever Rangan Chatterjee is spouting off that we should eat, it doesn't mean that our health will all kind of play out along the same lines. So we were going through your journey.Molly: Yeah, so I was talking about lifestyle medicine and feeling just a bit uncomfortable with the whole thing.And of course at that time I was nurturing a special interest in neurodiversity, kind of recognising my own neurodivergence and my children's neurodivergence. And so eating disorders were kind of very much on my radar. And so intuitively I just didn't like the idea of creating any kind of fear or anxiety around food that just felt wrong.And, you know, that's what we were doing when we were talking about nutrition, the world of nutrition is also extremely confusing. And it was confusing for me. You know, you have all these people giving really compelling arguments as to why their diet is the best. And they're able to give you all this evidence that backs up their claims.But the kind of general theme, yes, is that we are creating this fear and anxiety around, often, whole groups of food.Laura: I mean, wow. There's so much that we could say even about that. Like I got a message from a parent the other day who was like, I feel like I need to have a degree in nutrition to feed my child.I was just like, yeah, that's how fucking convoluted we have made nutrition with all the kind of competing expert voices who are shouting about, you know, their diet as being the best diet and even like among amongst paediatric feeding professionals and, well, just feediatric…did I just invent a new word?! Paediatric dieticians and nutritionists, there's, you know, there's a right and a wrong way.And like you say, it really creates a lot of fear and anxiety about messing up. And it plays into our fears about not being a good enough parent. And yeah, it really, like, tugs on a lot of different parts of us. Where did it go from there then once you had this kind of recognition of like, well, I don't want to be adding fuel to the fire of eating disorders, disordered eating and making food scary for, you know…I'm thinking about patients of yours that might be neurodivergent where food might already be really scary.Where did it go from there?Molly: Where it went from there is that I went on maternity leave.Laura: Get out of there!Molly: Yeah, exactly. So I went on maternity leave with this kind of feeling of disconnect and that something wasn't right and I needed to do something. And of course maternity leave provided me with the opportunity to listen to lots of podcasts and read lots of things while sat feeding a baby. So that's how I actually stumbled across health at every size. You know, the kind of the parenting path that I've chosen to take meant that I was already aware of, you know, division of responsibility and intuitive eating and kind of food neutrality and body neutrality. So I was already, already aware of those. And, you know, I was…again, intuitively the idea of the language that I was using around food and bodies with my children was very important.So I think I actually listened to a podcast. I think it might have been the Full Blooms podcast that I listened to. And I think was being interviewed on that. And that was the first time I heard the words kind of anti diet and health at every size. And yeah, when I have a special interest, I really have a special interest. So, you know, 158 podcasts later, um, yeah, there I was. And, you know, there I was in this state of…a combination of so many feelings of kind of frustration, guilt, sadness, anger, disbelief. Yeah, you know, I kind of had this very strong sense of justice and feel things very deeply and it…I found it very consuming to begin with. This feeling that I'd been getting it wrong and why are more people not talking about this? Why is this not more mainstream? And really, people should be talking about this. And I wanted to tell everybody I knew about this because this is so important.Laura: I've heard a similar version of that story from not just other medical professionals, but also clients of mine who are like, why, why isn't everyone talking about this?And they want to kind of. become these little social justice warriors and really just, like, shout it from the rooftops. But what I really appreciated, Molly, there, was just you talking about all the complexity of the feelings that came up for you, because I think oftentimes, particularly if you're in the medical profession or any kind of allied health profession, because you're in that caring profession, your automatic line of thinking is often, wow, I've caused so much harm.And, and you feel an immense amount of guilt for continuing to prescribe diets when you're learning that diets don't work and you think about all the encounters you've had with patients that might have inadvertently increased their experiences of stigma and harm. And again, we'll come to talk about that more in a bit.I suppose my point is really that…of course you're going to feel that way and that doesn't have to be where it ends being kind of stuck with those feelings of guilt. And so hopefully there was also like a glimmer of hope in there as well? Molly: Oh gosh, yes. Laura: Well, I'm wondering as well, because it sounds like you were quite disenchanted before you went on maternity leave. So did this feel like, okay, this is something that…this is a missing piece of the puzzle for me, for my practice going forward?Molly: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I have complete conviction about it. And I did at the time and I still have now, you know, this is absolutely the way I want to practice. And I do have hope.And I do think that in 20 years time, maybe even 10 years time, we are going to change the way we look at weight and weight management, well, weight management, you know, will not be a thing.Laura: Just abolish weight management. Molly: Yeah, absolutely. Laura: You've used the term health at every size and I'm wondering if you could just give a brief kind of like, explainer of what health at every size is for people who haven't encountered it before. Or weight inclusive healthcare, you know, like whatever feels more comfortable for you.Molly: Yeah, I mean, I guess let's talk about the kind of weight-inclusive, the weight inclusive approach, which is probably what I feel kind of most comfortable with. Laura: Same. Molly: Yeah. So the idea that weight isn't a marker of health, and that people of any size deserve good quality, compassionate, equal access to healthcare, that weight loss isn't possible for most people, and that actually trying to achieve weight loss brings with it lots of concerning things like, a, you know, problematic relationship with food, risk for eating disorders, and weight cycling, so weight going up and down, which again is bad for us, along with stress, and again, stress is not good for us.Laura: Yeah, so there's, there's a lot to even think about within there, but I think that even that first idea is really radical and it shouldn't be, right? That first idea of like, people of all sizes deserve equal access to healthcare and it should all be delivered with compassion and care. And I think most of us, at least those of us who have thin privilege, for us that's more or less a given.Although, you know, I've had plenty of shady encounters with doctors, but in general, you know, I am treated well, whereas, and certainly stories I've heard from clients and, you know, fat activists and people online is that that is…and that's, this is what bears out in the evidence as well, is that that is not guaranteed.That people of a higher body weight can walk into a GP surgery, maybe they're seeking care for, I don't know, a sore throat or a pain in their hand. And to call back to your earlier point about how you have to make these, like, lifestyle recommendations. Patients who are of a higher weight, regardless of what they present for, are almost often given a prescription for weight loss, or they might even be handed a coupon for Slimming World, right?Like the NHS partners with Slimming World too, and some other weight loss companies. But even if that's not what that person came in for, or even if that person said in no uncertain terms, I do not want to talk about weight loss. weight. That's not what I'm here for. I don't want to diet. The doctor generally won't respect that boundary. Um, yeah.Molly: And what's so sad is that I see patients preempting that. So I have patients that come to me who will say, ‘I know I need to lose weight', or ‘I know I'm a bigger girl', you know, it's almost like…because they are so anticipating me saying it and so nervous about that conversation, that they kind of want to say it, so it's out the way.Laura: Yeah. What do you think that's about? What do you think's going on there?Molly: Well, I mean, I think they're feeling vulnerable and anxious. And as I said, they are so used to their doctor saying something about their size that it's almost like they kind of just want to get it out of the way. If I say it, then they won't say it.Laura: Yeah, almost like a defence, it sounds like.Molly: Yeah, absolutely. And it, you know, it's so sad.Laura: And how do you approach that with a patient then if they, if they start a consultation off like that, I'm kind of jumping ahead of myself here a little bit, but thinking about, you know, how from this new perspective of, of being a weight inclusive doctor, do you approach that conversation and start to kind of, you know, take them on a, in a slightly different direction than, than they might have been accustomed to.Molly: So it's not easy and it's something that I'm still kind of trying to work out. And of course, you know, bearing in mind, I have 10-15 minutes with these people. And of course, it's not like they come to me and they say, Oh, you know, tell me what you think about my weight, or do you think I need to lose weight?They come to me with the assumption that I believe they should lose weight, and they, you know, usually they will come about something else like, you know, a chest infection or a sore throat, and their weight will... come up as part of that consultation. You know, that kind of respectful two way dialogue is a really important part for me of the weight inclusive approach.And, you know, in the same way that I feel very strongly that a weight centric consultation is horrible because it's that kind of didactic, this is what you must do. Similarly, you know, me just telling somebody, you don't need to lose weight equally wouldn't sit right with me. And of course, I'm very hyper aware in that scenario of my own thin privilege and how insensitive of me it would be to just kind of, you know, dismiss them and say, you don't need to worry about your weight because that would be really kind of minimising their experience.And of course they have had to worry about their weight because their size has meant that they have faced many obstacles and horrible things happen to them and discrimination and so I think it's really important to kind of acknowledge that. So what I try and do is to actually apologise and say, I'm so sorry that anybody has made you feel that your body is flawed and needs fixing. I don't believe that. And I explain my background and I say, you know, I spent the last few years learning a lot about weight science and reflecting, and as a result of that learning, I now don't see weight as a marker of health and I don't recommend weight loss to my patients and I explain the reasons for that. Laura: Oh my God. I feel kind of emotional hearing you say that just because of just how powerful it would be, I mean, for anyone to hear that who's, you know, had concerns about their weight, but particularly for, for fat folks and, and like, I'm thinking specifically of, of a couple of clients of mine in the past, who've just had horrendous experiences with their GP, even when I have preemptively written to the GP saying, like: ‘this person has a history of disordered eating and we're not pursuing intentional weight loss for these reasons. Here's all this science that you can read to say why this isn't a good idea', and then still had, you know, yeah, just horrendous experiences.  And so yeah, just to have a GP who is so compassionate and understanding. First of all, you're signalling that you're a safe person to them. And secondly, you're signalling that you can come and talk to me about this stuff. Like, even if they're not there about their weight, they want to get their antibiotics for their chest infection and just get out of there. But in the future, if that comes up, they know that they can come to you and approach you. And it's just, it feels like a really powerful thing to me.Molly: People do cry, actually. I've had a few people cry when I've said that.Laura: I bet they do. Yeah. I hope that any other GPs listening are frantically taking notes at this point of a little, a little spiel that they can say to their clients. And, and has that gone on to open up any other conversations with patients? Or kind of, you say that people get emotional, but what besides that is the response?Molly: like I say, emotional that that's not something they've ever heard anybody say before. And I guess kind of relief. I mean, at the same time, you know, I fully recognise that they will have had a lifetime of being told different things. So, you know, it will take a lot of time for them to completely change their thinking. But yeah, people do come back and have come back to speak to me about it.And, you know, normally what I say is, how would you feel about us instead thinking about certain health behaviours and how we can talk about those, but without weight loss being the goal? And I, I give them that to kind of think about really.Laura: And how do you make it so that that doesn't end up feeling like an earlier lifestyle medicine conversation?Molly: And I'm very conscious of that too. And I guess I make sure that I point out that the reason I don't want weight loss to be the goal is because when weight loss does become the goal, actually those behaviours... become quite unhealthy. As I said, I'm not quite sure I've got it right just yet. I'm constantly trying to think in my head how I can script these things in a way that does mean that people are going to come back to see me to talk about it because I want to talk to everybody about it and I want them to come back and see me, and like you say, for them to feel safe.Laura: Yeah. And I mean, fundamentally your job is to help people care for themselves and to offer them care. So yeah, you, you also can't be sort of, you can't completely ignore, you know, health promoting behaviours, but I suppose like, at least for me, it's eliciting from the individual what is important to them and what feels doable for them.So it's like really basic motivational interviewing stuff. Yeah. Yeah. How can we work from where you already are. And again, it speaks to that piece that a lot of times people already know the things that they need to do. And so it's just supporting them with the changes that they already want to make or not make and holding space for that as well. And offering them the medication if that's actually what they need.Molly:  And there being no shame around that, you know? Laura: Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. It's like a whole new way of doing medicine. So we've talked about a little bit around this concept of weight stigma, because there's a sort of very particular experience of weight stigma that happens in medical settings, or we could also use the words anti fatness to, I think, better describe weight stigma.And yeah, just a sort of side note, weight stigma tends to be a very, like, neutered term that is used in academia, whereas I think in, in critical fat studies and, and in fat liberation spaces, they're more and more using the word anti-fat bias, which really speaks to what that is. Can you explain a little bit more of what that means and how it plays out in a medical setting and how it is so harmful and damaging for people's health?Molly: Yeah. I mean, what we're referring to there is, as you say, the anti-fat bias that people who work in healthcare carry. So meaning a preference to thin bodies and kind of prejudice towards fat bodies. And that's experienced by fat people as weight stigma, that's really, really concerning and it can present in many ways, but it's, let's give you some examples of what that can look like in a GP surgery.So that can look like a fat person coming to see their GP and, as you said earlier, having every symptom put down to their weight, weight loss being the answer for everything. It can mean a fat person losing weight and that weight loss being celebrated, rather than that weight loss being considered the red flag that it should be and being investigated correctly. It can look like there not being the right equipment available, so therefore the necessary examination doesn't take place, the right investigations don't take place. It can look like the treatment options that are available for thin people not being available or accessible to fat people. And, you know, all of this means that fat folk don't go and see their doctor when they need to.And, you know, I don't need to explain why that is a concern. That is a concern. It means that diagnoses are missed, diagnoses are made late and it absolutely contributes to stress. Mental health, physical health, and health inequity in an already marginalized group of people. I find it so concerning.Laura: When you list it all out like that, it just puts it into perspective how healthcare for...fat people is anything but care. It's anything but health. It's, yeah, prejudice, and marginalisation and, yeah, violence. I think a lot of times. Yeah. Because it can kind of, I was just thinking of another example of what people have told me that they've had to go for like two or three oral glucose tolerance tests in pregnancy, because their doctors have, are just baffled that these people aren't…Molly: Couldn't possibly be diabetic…Laura: Couldn't possibly be diabetic... Because there's an assumption, I think made about what fat people's health should be. Molly: Absolutely. Laura: You know, I want to caveat this whole conversation by saying that nobody owes anyone health and yeah, health is, is morally neutral, right? Molly: Absolutely. Yeah. Laura: But there is a very pervasive idea that fat people cannot also have, you know, markers that we would traditionally consider to be within normal range or are healthy by virtue of the fact that they're fat. But I think what the evidence shows us over and over again, when we really dig through it, is that independent of your body size, you can have markers of health. Like, cardio respiratory health, low cholesterol, or like within the healthy range, not have type 2 diabetes, not have high blood pressure. But I think the assumption that I hear from medical colleagues is that people will invariably have those things if they're a higher weight.Molly: Yeah. And you know, when we think about children, I see that, that we have a child who, in terms of their kind of metabolic health markers is healthy. And yet because they are a certain weight that's pathologised and they are treated as if they are a pathology, whereas actually there is nothing wrong with them when you look at their blood results and their blood pressure.Laura: Yeah, because I did want to ask you a little bit about, about kids, if that's okay.I realize it's a bit of a detour, but I'm, I'm curious to hear if you were the parent of that child that you mentioned who might be a higher body weight, but you know, otherwise there's nothing there to worry about. Or even if there is something to worry about, you know, do you have any advice for parents of how to navigate health care and, you know, have these approach these conversations with their GP, you know, to say, like, ‘I don't want to focus on their weight. What else can we do to support this child?'Molly: Yeah, I mean, I think that's what you've just said is a really good way of framing it. Laura: I just realised I just answered my own question!Molly: And, you know, I really, really feel for parents in this situation because it must be such a horrible confrontation. To be faced with health care professionals who are telling you that you need to do something about your child's weight, and yet you have a child in front of you and you're worried about how they feel about their body, how they feel about themselves. And I guess, you know, the sad thing is that many parents do believe what a doctor says to them, and so would put their child on a diet, which just horrifies me and breaks my heart of what we're doing to children when we do that. But yeah, I mean, I think as you posed it perfectly, you know…'I'm happy to talk about health behaviours, but I'm not happy to focus on my child's weight and the reasons for that are that I don't want my child to develop an eating disorder and my child's relationship with their body and food is really important to me.'Laura: That's a really brave thing, a really brave thing to have to do as a parent. I mean, I know trying to like stand up to…I remember declining to be weighed at my booking appointment for the maternity pathway, and the nurse was just so aggressive with me. She was just like, ‘computer says no'. And I was like, but I don't have to do this. But I was in such a like, fragile state. Molly: Of course. Of course. Yeah. Laura: Trying to push back on a healthcare professional when they're not receptive to it. And also, like, there's some weird stuff there, but like, if you decline a test, which is basically what I did decline, they should respect that. And they didn't. So that's like a whole other thing. But my point is that pushing back on a, on a healthcare, an authoritative, an authoritative healthcare provider is really, really challenging.So I think to step into that space as a parent is, it's really hard.Molly: Really, really hard. Absolutely. I do not underestimate that at all. You know, I recently got told that I shouldn't be breastfeeding my two and a half year old and. You know, I approached that situation as a doctor with privilege, and I found that very difficult.Laura: Oh, so a healthcare professional told you?Molly: Yeah, yeah. What? That it currently wasn't offering any nutritional value. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not trying to compare that to how it must feel as a parent of a fat child, but, uh, you know, I understand that. Yeah. Confronting somebody in a position of authority is extremely, extremely difficult.And I wish people didn't have to have those conversations.Laura: Well, I hope you told them where to shove it with, with their comments about feeding. Molly: I pulled down my top and latched them. Laura: Love it. Okay. Well. Yes, as a still feeding a preschooler, I totally, totally respect your decision to, to keep feeding. And yes, also if you have any tips for how the fuck to get them to self-wean…! Molly: No, sadly not, no! Laura: Uh, he'll stop one day, I keep telling myself. We were just talking a bit about how anti fatness presents itself in the medical setting and how people are less likely to have their experiences believed, they are less likely to be offered the follow up…what's the word, the medical word, I'm struggling to find the medical word, like the assessments and…Molly: Investigations? Laura: Thank you, that they, they might need. Weight loss is often celebrated when it's a red flag for, you know, if it was a thin person, it would be definitely a red flag, but that just doesn't register. There's, I say ‘avoidance' kind of in quotation marks, avoidance of healthcare and kind of ‘noncompliance' again in inverted commas because they are such loaded problematic terms, because they put the blame on the individual instead of on the medical professional who is often perpetrating violence against that person. And so, yeah, I just want to kind of give that caveat. Yeah. And it can encourage…or it can mean that people die. Like it's, it's often a case of life, life or death because people understandably don't want to go see their GP.There's a really powerful piece, I'm not sure Molly, if you've read it, by Marquisele Mercedes in Pipewrench Magazine, where she's talking about not just the intersection of anti-fatness and medical care, but also anti-blackness because there's a another layer here when someone is racialised about assumptions made about like their pain threshold and, and tolerance. And it's a really eye-opening read if you haven't already read it. So I'm gonna link to that in the show notes just to give people like more, yeah, a kind of deeper understanding of some of these issues. I'm curious to hear, since you've adopted more of a white inclusive approach, if you've had any pushback from your colleagues and if you have, how do you handle that?Molly: So actually, I haven't. Not that I know about, not that anybody has spoken to me about, and actually, I...Laura: You're just keeping it under your hat because you're just alone in that GP room. You don't have to, like, deal with other doctors on a ward.Molly: I mean, that does help, absolutely, that I do have a lot of autonomy. And yes, I'm in my room and I see my patients. I did do a presentation to my colleagues about weight inclusive care, which I was really nervous about. And isn't that funny? Because... You know, I was thinking about the fact I was far more nervous doing that than I would be doing other presentations and, you know, these days I do a fair amount of presenting, and I kind of unpicked that. I thought, let's think about the crux of what I'm saying here and the crux of what I'm saying here is, you know, the point I made earlier that people of all sizes deserve compassionate, good, equal access to health care, which really, I would hope that most, yeah, doctors are on board with, members of the caring profession would be behind.But yeah, so the presentation went well and, you know, people came to speak to me afterwards and said, it kind of made them think, and they'd be really interested in knowing a little bit more. So that was positive. I mean, as GPs, the idea that weight loss isn't sustainable is something that we see day in, day out. And so I don't think that's too difficult for GPs to get behind. Laura: Okay. And just to kind of expand on that point a little bit, because I know we've, we've talked around this idea that diets don't work. And again, I'll link to a piece that I wrote about the diet cycle and, and this sort of why diets don't work, but just to give like a really quick overview of what the weight science literature tells us is essentially there are – and this is simplifying things, and Molly, feel free to jump in and like expand on anything I'm saying, but what happens when we go on a diet is sort of twofold. First of all, so we reduce the amount of food that we're consuming, right? That's the fundamental premise of any diet. They all work the same way, right? ‘Work' initially, at least initially. So you might initially see a little bit of. of weight loss, but then your body starts responding to that by dialling up your hunger and appetite hormones, because what it's trying to do is defend your genetically determined set point weight, right?This blueprint that we have for…I like to think of it as a kind of comfortable zone that our bodies will, like, prefer to be in because there's usually always some fluctuation within that, right? Like our weight just kind of goes up and down on its own through various, you know, stages of life. But overall it likes to stay within a window, shall we say.If we're trying to push it down below that comfortable window, our body will respond by amping up hunger and appetite hormones to drive up our appetite, to get us up off of our asses to go and find some food, right? Like it's an evolutionary mechanism. So that's why you kind of end up diving headfirst into a bread basket or, you know, I always say like you find yourself elbow deep in a tube of Pringles if you're, if you're on a diet, like that, that's what can happen. And it's because there are these biological mechanisms driving that. If for some reason you are able to kind of ride that out, you maybe develop some unhealthy coping mechanisms to sort of essentially ignore your hunger, then what can happen is that your body has another mechanism to try and make up for that, which is to slow down your metabolism. Right, so it can kind of…either you can get more food to defend your set point weight, or all the functions in your body can sort of slow down. It often starts with what are considered non essential functions, like reproduction. So you might notice that you're, if you're menstruating, that your period becomes irregular, your hair might kind of become less thick, your nails might get, I mean, your skin might get a bit dull, but then because your body can't sort of say, okay, turn off this system, but leave all the other ones on, you'll notice it kind of like playing out in, in other areas.So somewhere that I see kind of play out a lot is digestion, which I think we can all agree is an essential function, but you start to notice, you might notice it as like IBS type symptoms, constipation, bloating, diarrhoea, all of these things can be a function of not having enough to eat. So, as your metabolism is slowing down, you will obviously get this plateau in weight loss or your weight might start to increase or you could have both things happening kind of simultaneously where your metabolism is dialling down and then at the same time your hunger hormones are dialling up so you have what I call ‘the fuck it effect' where you know it's like the floodgates open and you're just raiding the fridge. And it's kind of funny but also it's a really distressing experience for people sometimes, if you don't understand what's going on, which is…it's your primal biological urge to eat is kind of overtaking you and you were just trying to meet your needs however you want, but it can feel really chaotic and out of control and oftentimes we label it as like food addiction or comfort eating sometimes, or like, yeah, we pathologise it somehow, even when that's not really what's going on.So that was…more of a detour than I wanted to go on, but I thought it was important to explain a little bit of the mechanics as to why diets don't work. Did you have anything you wanted to add to that, Molly?Molly: No, I think you have summarised that perfectly. My headline would be, bodies are very clever, don't underestimate them.Laura: Absolutely. Yeah, that is a way better way of putting it. But so, medical colleagues, they don't have too much difficulty understanding or kind of appreciating that weight loss is not sustainable. So they see that day to day in their practice. So they…it's an easy sell? Molly: Yes, it's an easy sell. Exactly. Laura: When you kind of go back and fill in, like, some of the stuff that probably should have been taught in medical school, but for whatever reason wasn't…I say probably should have been taught. I mean, definitely should have been taught in medical school, but wasn't. What other kinds of, like, questions or what things did you come up against when having these conversations with colleagues?Molly: So yeah, that is an easy sell. The harder sell is around the idea that, well, ‘ob*sity' being a thing and, you know, it's associated co-morbidities. Also, what is tricky…so even after I'd kind of finished the talk and had a conversation about it, the conversation turned to, but we do need to think about how safe it is to refer somebody with a BMI of over 30 for any replacement.So, you know, the kind of idea that the research that is at the core of, you know, our approaches and the weight centric approach is full of bias and quite frankly, fat phobia. And that's when I start to feel very conspiratorial, which I hate.Laura: I know exactly what you mean. Yeah.Molly: But I think it's a, you know, it's a really important part of the puzzle, and people really need to appreciate that, that actually research, you know, I think Fiona Willer described it as “a persuasive piece of writing”, which I think's a really important way to look at it, because that's what, you know, research really is. And that, you know, people are generally trying to prove a point when they start a piece of research. And because we live in this inherently fat phobic society, people are generally trying to prove that fat is bad.Laura: And so what you're saying is there, and there's a great paper that explores this, there's a BMJ paper that explores all the underlying assumptions in weight research, all these biases that Molly is describing.They filter through into the research that we get. So it becomes this like, circular, like, self fulfilling kind of thing, where we are looking for problems with higher weight and worse health outcomes. So we find them, right? Like it becomes this yeah, very… Molly: Confirmation bias. Laura: Exactly. That's, that's the right word I was looking for.So I'll link to a couple of papers that for anyone, for like medical students or even nutrition, any allied health professionals who are interested in learning more about this, because it's a lot to kind of take in. And we're, I feel like just getting to the tip of the iceberg here. Thank you for reading Can I Have Another Snack?. This post is public so feel free to share it.Molly: And I guess the other point to make about the research as well that people really need to appreciate is that it's, you know, I've said before, but it's really complex.And so, you know, let's take the example of post operative complications of a knee replacement. And by the way, I haven't really done a deep dive on this, so….I'm just kind of using it as an example rather than it being something I know a lot about, but, you know, let's imagine that there is an increased association between post operative complications in somebody with a high BMI after a knee replacement.Is that as simple as a person's fat and therefore they're going to be at risk of post operative complications, or is it that they are really stressed in a hospital because they know that they're going to be made to feel bad about their body size? Is it that they didn't have the right equipment available to carry out the operation or to, you know, anesthetise that person? Is it that anti fat bias has played a part in the treatment that they've received post operatively? We really, really need to be digging deeper and looking at the complexities around these kind of headlines that form the part of, yeah, our management.Laura: So yeah, what you, what you're talking about there is the sort of potential confounding variables that don't get measured for, that help explain the relationship between X and Y.Yeah. But we just…we see the X and the Y and we don't see all the – this is a terrible analogy – all the other letters, but we're looking for cause and effect, but we're not actually looking at all the other complicating factors that might result in that outcome. I think. Because our, like, primal monkey brains love simple explanations for things, right? They don't want things to be complicated, but they are way more complicated than they first seem. So, last thing I want to ask you about is...Whether you have any advice for medical students or even physicians who are bumping up against anti fat bias, either in their training or with their colleagues?Molly: Well, I guess I really hope there are people in the medical profession listening to this who do share our beliefs and, you know, I'd love to hear from you because solidarity is really important. You know, it can feel quite lonely. I guess my advice would be to kind of stick to your guns and hold on to those values and know that you are keeping people safe and you will mean that people feel able to come and see you who wouldn't otherwise have felt safe coming to see you. And that's really important. And you know, when I'm doubting myself or feeling a bit exhausted by swimming against the tide, what I tell myself is, well, let's think about the alternative. And the alternative is not something that I can entertain. In terms of conversations with colleagues, I mean, podcasts, I really find useful as a way of kind of signposting people to snippets of information and also talking about yourself. So, you know, people are more receptive if you kind of critique your own bias as opposed to critiquing theirs.Laura: Yeah, exactly.Molly: So, you know. A conversation like, you know, I'm thinking about a medical student sat in clinic with somebody saying something like, ‘Oh, I've been thinking about my own anti-fat bias, or I've been thinking about weight stigma and how I might be contributing to that and how that's something I'd really like to address'. You know, that kind of thing just plants that seed, doesn't it? And means that, whether they react perfectly in the moment may mean that that person then has to think about it themselves and reflects on it themselves and does a bit of reading.Laura: Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And you can always, you know, if they are open to, to reading more, like, like I said, you could, I'll link to some papers that you could share with them doing a journal club around those papers or like you did, Molly, a presentation that can also be ways to open up conversations within a department or you know, a university setting or something like that, where you can all be kind of working through some of this stuff together, rather than sort of siloed on, on your own. Because I think it can feel really lonely if you're the only little salmon swimming upstream.Molly: It's really hard work, isn't it? Really hard work being the pariah.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. But I'm really grateful for everything that you're doing. And you know, even if we don't change anyone else's minds, just the fact that you're showing up for your patients the way that you are is so important. So yeah, thank you for that work. At the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been snacking on. It could be anything you like, a show, a podcast, an actual little snack. So what have you been snacking on lately, Molly?Molly: So I have a television show that I've been watching that I'm actually able to share. I have a very specific criteria when it comes to television shows that I'm willing to watch because I'm such an empath that I can't bear watching anything that involves, you know, people being treated badly or humiliated or murdered, you know, anything like that. No, and it also has to be very relatable. I can't, my brain just cannot, you know, get into kind of wizardry and magicians and stuff. I have been watching Couples Therapy, which is a documentary on BBC iPlayer, which films couples going through therapy. And it's like reality TV, but without the vacuous….Laura: The drama. Yeah, okay.Molly: Yeah. And yeah, without the drama. So, I mean, there is drama, but it's a really kind of measured drama, and I just love watching the process. I love seeing the dynamic and seeing how it all pans out. I think the therapist is amazing. Oh. And it's fascinating. Laura: So these are real, these are real therapy sessions? They've not been staged?Molly: They've not. No. No.Laura: Oh wow. It's wild. It's real. I have no idea how they got that through any kind of ethics, but…Molly: Yeah. Yeah. Good point. But it's, but it's…Laura: I mean, it sounds interesting. Who doesn't want to listen in to other people's therapy sessions? Molly: Yeah. I mean, I didn't watch it thinking, oh gosh, I feel really bad that this person is doing this on didn't, it didn't feel like that. It actually felt really, you know, therapeutic.Laura: Like I did a documentary with BBC. a long time ago now and there was like a clinical psychologist on the support staff team so I figure that there has to be like someone…that person who's, yeah, just like making sure everything is contained and everyone is safe and yeah like, yeah, no one is, like, baring their soul on national TV who is gonna regret that they said those things. So that sounds really interesting. Okay, so my snack is sort of, I think, well, really related to what we have been talking about. So the book that I have been reading at the moment is called Sugar Rush: Science, Politics, and the Demonization of Fatness. It's by Karen Throsby, who is a sociologist and it is a bit more on the academic side, but it is so fascinating.Basically what she's done is a content analysis of like 500 odd different newspaper articles and books from about, I think just before the implementation of the sugar tax, or maybe when the sugar tax was being debated, all the way through to like 2020 with Boris Johnson's latest round of anti ‘ob*sity' policy.She's just tracing kind of like the history of the sugar tax and the way that the media talks about it and some like key anti sugar figures and some of the, like, the rhetoric around sugar and how it has been kind of like socially constructed. And it's also linking it to the demonization of fatness as, yeah, the subtitle suggests.But what I found really interesting is just how she talks a lot about these ideas that are written into policy documents that are so kind of assertive and confident and definitive that are the similar things that you and I have been talking about in this podcast about the relationship between weight and health that are just in all of these policy documents are just like, like, given at face value and there's no further sort of exploration of the science and I'm only kind of the first couple of chapters, but I'm really enjoying it.It's really good. It appeals to my, like, super nerdy nutrition brain where I want to understand the trajectory of all of these policies and how they all kind of interlink and build on one another. And it also has a fair amount of Jamie Oliver bashing. So I'm here for that. So yeah, Sugar Rush by Karen Throsby. So I will link to Couple's Therapy. Is that the name of your show? Couple's Therapy on iPlayer and Sugar Rush in the show notes. All right, Molly, before I let you go, can you let everyone know where they can find out more about you and your work?Molly: So I am on Instagram as @antidietGP, um, similarly on Facebook as Anti Diet GP. Be great to see you there. Laura: All right, I will link to both of those in the show notes so people can come find you and yeah, let us know what you think of this episode and thank you so much again for your work, Molly. It was really good to talk to you. Molly: Oh, thank you.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today.  Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI last week: When Your Friend Announces They're on a Diet… * Rapid Response: Why I don't like ‘this food does a little/this food does a lot'* Dear Laura... How do I stop wishing for the past and accept myself now?* Bandit Standing on the Scales is Not Even the Worst Part of Bluey This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

In today's CIHAS episode, I'm speaking to online personal trainer and performance nutritionist, Michael Ulloa. Michael is on a mission to make the fitness industry a more welcoming and accepting space for all, which is exactly what we dive into in this ‘sode. We are unpacking some toxic myths about exercise, Michael spills the beans on his feelings about Joe Wicks, and we discuss what really goes into professional fitness models' photo shoots. Plus we answer loads of your questions like how to find a more joyful relationship with movement after a lifetime of using it as punishment for eating. Find out more about Michael's work here.Follow his work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:INTRO:Michael: The way that we're being sold health and fitness just isn't sustainable or achievable in any way and then people blame themselves and feel worse and then therefore they're more likely to spend money on all these other programs repeatedly and it's just a vicious cycle that just doesn't ever end.Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast, where we talk about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas. I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter. Today, I'm talking to Michael Ulloa.Michael is an online personal trainer and performance nutritionist who is on a mission to make the fitness industry a more welcoming and accepting space for all. In today's episode, Michael and I are shooting the shit about the fitness industry, unpacking some toxic myths about exercise, and answering loads of your questions: like how to find a more joyful relationship with movement after a lifetime of using it as punishment for eating.Some of you have been asking for more episodes on movement and fitness, so I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. We'll get to Michael in just a second, but first, I want to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter and community.For just £5 a month, or £50 a year, you get access to the extended CIHAS universe. That means exclusive weekly discussion threads, links and recommendations, you get commenting privileges and access to my monthly Dear Laura column, as well as the whole CIHAS archive and a few other sweet perks, but more than anything, you're supporting independent evidence based nutrition information free from diet culture and anti fatness. I can't do this work without the help of paying subscribers. So if you get something out of being here, then please consider upgrading your subscription today. And if you're still not convinced, then check out this recent review I received from a reader. They said: "Laura's podcast and newsletter are always thought provoking, filled with care and compassion, and a respite from one size fits all health and nutrition advice."So if that sounds good to you, then head to laurathomas.substack.com and become a paying subscriber today. Alright team, let's get to today's episode, here's Michael. MAIN EPISODE:All right, Michael, I need to know what the deal is. Because you're like one of maybe five PTs who isn't pushing aesthetic or weight loss goals on us.Has that always been your deal? Or is this more of an evolution for you? Michael: Yeah, it's definitely an evolution and it's funny you mentioned that because I get a lot of angry messages from personal trainers that don't think that my approach is right, which is always quite funny to me. I don't know, it's, I definitely, when I first started off in the fitness industry... I've been a personal trainer now for nearly 10 years.And in terms of personal training, that kind of makes you a bit of a veteran because a lot of trainers are quite short lived on average. When I first started off, I definitely did have your typical, like, mainstream slightly bro approach to fitness and nutrition. And I know most people that maybe work in the kind of space that, like, you operate in, for example, there tends to usually be a reason or a thing that caused them to go down that path.But I didn't have that at all. It really has just been a really slow evolution of just actually reading the research, working with people on a day to day basis, getting feedback from clients about what is working and what isn't, and then just really tweaking things over a very long period of time. I've also had some very honest clients, which have been great too, who kind of really follow my content on social media and they would message me like, oh, that's not very helpful. How about approaching it like this? And i'm always open to feedback, I always want to improve my practice and my messaging and I was always just quite receptive to that and I don't know... 10 years later I now finally feel like i'm working with people in a way that genuinely helps them long term and i'm actually creating content that is useful for people rather than just almost creating content for other personal trainers, which seems to be what a lot of fitness professionals do.Laura: Tell me about the angry messages. Why are other PTs up in your shit about...? Michael: I really don't know. I wish I knew the answer. I think... I guess if you're attacking someone's entire being and their work and their ethos that they've believed in for so many years, then I guess that a lot of people will react to that in quite a negative way.I really don't understand it at all either. Usually male coaches too, are very angry in the way that I approach social media and some of the names and things I've been called are pretty grim, but I only... I wish I knew the answer to that, but some, for some reason people get very angry in the way that I am approaching fitness and nutrition.But yeah, I really don't mind. Like I, as I said, I feel like I'm really helping people now and I'm happy to keep championing that message. Laura: I mean, I'm just wondering if part of it is because that myth, certain myth of no pain, no gain. And that you need to like, basically punish yourself with exercise in order to achieve a particular body type.You're saying, actually, we don't need to do that. It's okay if you don't kill yourself with exercise. We shouldn't be weaponising it against ourselves. For me, it speaks to how deeply internalised people's anti fat bias is. You're challenging the fundamental sort of premise that their beliefs are resting on, which is that, you can't be fit and fat.Or you...yeah, like I said before, that you have to punish yourself with exercise or like that... it's somehow okay to exist in a body that isn't fulfilling this ideal that we have been told that we should not strive for. Michael: Completely. And I mean, if we're completely honest about it, the way that the fitness industry is set up now is way more profitable for these people too.So if you do start attacking the way that they're approaching their lives or their businesses too, then they're probably going to be a little bit grumpy about that. It's so much easier for me as a personal trainer to make money saying, here we go, come sign up for the six week program and we'll strip body fat off you in such a short space of time, rather than me saying, cool, let's work together for three, six, 12 months. And let's really work on those habits and have you feeling and performing better. Like it's just such a hard sell. I mean, especially for, as I mentioned, like, personal training tends to be quite a short lived career for a lot of people. And I appreciate that when people first start off, the best way to get clients is shock and awe, like showing before and after photos, like having the secrets or whatever it is. And the best way to get clients at the start is by doing that. So people are going to follow that path rather than doing it the right way. That is a bit of a slow burner. I know that a lot of coaches aren't really up for that, sadly. Laura: Yeah, no, I think you make a really good point when you're talking about... the financial aspect of things, because, yeah, there's no money to be made in being like, yeah, take a rest day or go for a gentle walk and look at the sky. Yeah, those like making huge promises of around body transformations and then making people sign up for some sort of like intensive bootcamp situation. Of course, that makes sense from like a business model perspective, but as so often is the case, anything that involves capitalism is probably not great for our health overall. Okay, so I am absolutely not in the fitness space at all. I've purged my social media account. I think I follow you and maybe a couple of other personal trainers, because I find it really annoying, honestly, watching fitness content.Michael: I strongly relate to that. And first of all, thank you for following me, but yeah, I honestly, I feel exactly the same way.  Laura: And I think, especially since having had a baby and because I have some enduring physical stuff going on as a result of my pregnancy in terms of, like, pelvic health, even the stuff that is like geared towards women who have had babies and like postpartum stuff.It's just anyway, so I've just checked out of it. So I have no idea. What is going on in that space, really? So I need you to like, translate it all for me. What are some of the most pervasive and toxic fitness myths that you're seeing at the moment? Michael: Everything. Honestly, every topic is so toxic at the moment.It's really frustrating. And I speak to... There's a few coaches that I'm really good friends with, who I think you probably know as well, that I tend to follow their content, I like engaging with them and talking about the fitness industry, but I have also removed myself from a lot of the mainstream approach because...I don't find it motivating or helpful in any way. Like I think a lot of the... Laura: You don't even hate follow some people just to have like stuff to...? Because I hate feed a lot of big feeding. I hate-feed?! I hate-follow a lot of big accounts. I just have this folder on my Instagram called Ammunition.And I just save posts in there that I want to come back and get angry about at some point. What are you seeing from... I know you do it! But what are you seeing from those folks? Michael: So I do a little bit of that. And I, so I've also, I've got an Instagram account for my dog, but I started up ages ago. I don't post anything to it, but every time I see something pop up on, like, the explore page or I see another trainer share, I'll send it to her account. And then I'll use that as fodder for, like, creating content and coming up with ideas. But I do not, I don't hate follow that many people now because like I spent a lot of time on social media, right?And I know that because of that following these accounts and seeing them on a day to day basis all of the time does massively negatively impact my mental health. And I think if i'm feeling that way as a fitness professional who knows the research, knows what these accounts are doing to us and can see through the nonsense... how are everyday people feeling? When they're seeing this content and they don't really know if it's the truth or not. So I actually don't follow that many trainers. There's probably a lot of trainers who... . Laura: So very evolved of you. Michael: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. There's a few trainers who, like, I know through just from working in gyms or whatever, I'll follow them, but I mute them so that I don't have to see their content.Laura: Yeah, that's smart. Michael: But yeah, I don't know. There's so many myths about every topic. Like you mentioned there about, like, women's health and pelvic health and anything pre and postnatal. The stuff around that is really gross because it's not even just the fact that they're spreading misinformation. They somehow always tie in with just losing weight, like this is pretty much what it all comes down to, right? Laura: Yeah. Yeah. That's the subtext. It's always there. Michael: It's always like improve your pelvic health and slim your waist, like it's everything. It just pushes people down the route of still obsessing about body weight and focusing on body weight rather than focusing on general health and wellbeing and health promotion, and it's infuriating.I guess the same as, like, building muscle. Like it's nearly always advertised by these guys that are absolutely jacked, clearly taking steroids, using images of themselves going... you can look like this if you work out like me and buy my programs and my nutrition plans, and you're just never going to look like these people. So you're always going to fail. Like everything within the fitness space is geared towards repeat sales and having people come back for more because the way that we're being sold health and fitness, just isn't sustainable or achievable in any way. And then people blame themselves and feel worse. And then therefore they're more likely to spend money on all these other programs repeatedly. And it's just a vicious cycle that just doesn't ever end. And that's why with my page, I'm trying to step away from any aesthetic goals. Like you'll probably see through my social media, I don't, I'm not against people having aesthetic goals. I just don't really ever talk about it because I don't think it should ever be the focus of someone's fitness journey. I mean, I think that's the bit that seems to piss people off. Laura: Yeah. And I mean, there's some interesting research that shows that people who exercise for aesthetic goals, they're less likely to engage in something that is sustainable for them.Like, it's more likely that they will give up. And I don't mean that in, like, defeatist kind of way, but it just won't be sustainable for them. Versus for people who are approaching, I don't know, a type of exercise or training or whatever it is from a place of maybe wanting to feel stronger or feel more comfortable in their bodies or because they have mobility stuff that they're working through or something like that.So it's really difficult though, because And we'll get to some of the listener questions in a bit where they're asking this, like, how do you uncouple the aesthetic goals from, those more internally motivated goals from the perspective that we are just constantly being drip fed, idealised images of people all over the internet? And then, like you say, half the time those images aren't even real, right? There's people on ‘roids. There are people who are like starving themselves, like making themselves dehydrated, like posing in particular ways. I don't even know what other tactics people use to stylise these images.But I feel like the sort of falsification of these pictures is huge in the fitness industry. Michael: It's honestly horrific. And I would probably go as far as to say, like, every professional fitness model has taken or is taking steroids of some form. That's like the level of manipulation that the fitness industry...I don't know, I don't think there's any issue with... having aesthetic goals. Like I always like to hammer this point home because I think sometimes with my content, I can... people misconstrue that I'm against anyone having any aesthetic goal at all. I'm not, it's just, I think that the emphasis needs to be elsewhere.For example, when I first started in the fitness industry, I was in that loop of must build muscle, have to build muscle to show that I know what I'm talking about and also to be seen as manly and capable or whatever, and I would do a lot of strength training. I would never do cardio because cardio is bad.It ruins your gains. Laura: It's for girls.Michael: Yeah, it's just exactly that. And it's so frustrating that I would... I spent years just, like, strength training, nothing but strength training, even when I was going through cycles of really hating it. Like I had to do strength training, got to build muscle. When I switched up my training... I still do strength training now. I enjoy building muscle. The challenge of building strength and muscle is really fun, but I also do a lot of cardio because I really enjoy it and it makes me feel great in terms of physical and mental health. And actually since switching up, dropping a bit of strength training that I was doing and doing more cardio, the exercise I really enjoy, I've made so much more progress with my strength building and muscle building gains.And I've just got such a better balance with it all. So if someone listening to this is really struggling of knowing like what they should really be doing, what should they be focusing on? Honestly, just like enjoyment and mental health, that needs to be the priority. And then everything else just tends to fall into line after that.And the fitness industry, just the tactics, as I said, like the trainers use. The one thing that really annoys me is a lot of personal trainers will, anyone who follows any trainers will... I've seen this in the past where a trainer goes through a really extreme cycle of dieting, exercise regime because they're training for a photo shoot - in quotation marks - Where they'll go and get professional photos done that they've dieted down to within an inch of their lives. And they'll get a little snapshot image of look how amazing I look and then they'll use that in all their advertising of promoting healthy behaviour change or whatever other nonsense. It's if you're not using healthy, sustainable habits in achieving your physique, then you should not be allowed to use that in terms of advertising it to say that you're going to help people improve their health and their life, their health and their lives.It's just, it's incredibly infuriating and... Laura: it's false advertising. Michael: Massively. Yeah. Massively. Laura: Need to get that fucking, is it ASA, advertising...? Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Standards Agency. Absolutely. Yeah. Laura: I'm on the case! But two interesting things that I wanted to pick out from what you were saying.First of all, I think there's some complexity and nuance around this idea aesthetic goals, isn't there? Because we are all aesthetically driven, right? We are all, like we're aesthetic creatures in some ways, like when you brush your hair in the morning or I don't know, you trim your beard, Michael, or like I chose clothes that I thought looked somewhat okay together. Like those are all aesthetic goals, right? And so I think it's really, like, hard for people to decouple aesthetic goals from their overall movement, exercise routines, whatever you want to call them. But I think what you're saying, and certainly what I would advocate is that the fitness industry has just blown... yeah, they've blown up aesthetics to be like the sole purpose that people should exercise, right? And that I think is the problem is that yeah, they've just coupled exercise and aesthetics to the point that it's like you were saying, people are engaging in disorderly eating behaviours. They're using illicit drugs, they are, like, punishing themselves to look a particular way, and that's when it becomes problematic, right? Michael: Completely agree. Laura: And you end up on that slippery, slippery slope to disordered eating and eating disorders. Michael: Yeah, it's so true the barometer of success or health or knowledge within the fitness industry is body fat levels. That's pretty much what it all comes down to. Like a trainer who is absolutely jacked and really ripped is seen as being an authority figure without really knowing anything about them. And whereas you'll have a trainer who's in maybe a naturally larger sized body who naturally carries a little bit more body fat, has a much healthier balance of exercise and nutrition, a far better trainer. Just look at the comments under the content that they push out there onto social media and people will criticize them and say they don't know what they're talking about. Like our barometer of success is leanness. I don't know what the answer is to trying to combat that other than just keep churning out content, calling out this nonsense.But unfortunately you feel like you take a few steps forward when it was like two, three years ago, when you see, started to see a lot more body diversity on fitness accounts and kind of big companies like Gymshark and Nike and stuff were using people in larger bodies to advertise clothing.That's now disappearing again because it's no longer.... and it's just toxic. And you just have to go on like TikTok, the latest platform, even though it's been around a few years, I felt like we were maybe making a bit of progress. Then TikTok just flips that again, and you just got to search the hashtag fitness on TikTok.And it's just white, slim, muscular people clearly taking steroids that are the main bulk of the content that you're going to see. It's infuriating. Laura: Everyone in the fitness industry really collectively needs to be speaking out against this, but I think there's a simultaneous thing that has to happen whereby we are amplifying and centering experiences and the work of fat fitness creators, right? And I'm using fat, for anyone who's not listened to the podcast before, fat as a neutral descriptor, as a reclamation of a word that is often used to weaponise and hurt people and harm people. So, yeah, I'm just thinking of some people off the top of my head.Like Intuitive Fatty, Jessamyn Stanley is fantastic for yoga content. Lauren Leavell does a lot of barre stuff, but there's loads. I mean, is there anyone that you would want to give a shout out to like anyone that's doing...? Michael: The Instagram handle Decolonizing Fitness? Ilya. The content is amazing. We're trying to set up a time for Ilya to come into our podcast to chat about this at the moment. And I just... there's so many voices that need to be amplified. And I know that I always have to check my privilege in the content that I'm creating. Like you see very few men within the kind of body neutrality, body positivity, space, whatever you want to call the area I'm working in.So I always like to acknowledge that, okay, I'm creating content for a space that isn't really for me, but I do think that can be really powerful. And we still need more voices of guys, especially within this space, calling it out because I rarely ever see male fitness professionals creating the kind of content that I am.They tend to go down the more mainstream approach. And I like to yes, fitness can look like me. I look how the fitness industry says you're supposed to look, but it doesn't have to look like that, right? This is one way it can look, but it doesn't need to be like that for everyone. And I think that can be really powerful whilst amplifying the voices of those who are marginalised and don't get the airtime that I do.Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, you make a really good point about men in this space. Like just in body neutrality, body positivity and again, there are some really great people doing stuff in that space. I agree like it's still underrepresented, but like the 300 pound runner. I don't know if you've come across his stuff? Michael: yeah, Martinus Evans.Laura: Yeah, His stuff is really cool as well. But yeah, anyway, just wanted to shout out some accounts and I'll link to them in the show notes as well. Yeah, so you mentioned that fitness professionals will embark on this really extreme diet, they will really bulk up, they'll, probably restrict what they're eating for a really long time, and then they'll do all their photos, and they'll probably go back to whatever they were doing before that. And it just reminded me when... and this is it's like really sad, but do you remember when Joe Wicks was talking all about binging? He went to America, and then it ... he just started talking about like he was eating all this chocolate and pizza and like stuff that he obviously was restricting so hard that when he went to the States, he had this like backlash against all of that and his body was just like, fuck this, and he just started eating like all of the food that he'd been denying himself.It just made me think of that and how he's... how disordered like this space is and how normalised that kind of thing is like that just like binge restrict cycle. Michael: Yeah, I mean when your entire business model relies on getting people really lean. If you're not sticking to those rules and keeping your body lean 100 percent of the time, then your business model kind of goes to shit. And I guess that's probably why he was having issues coming to terms with that. Joe Wicks is a really funny one because I don't like his content at all. I'll throw that out there. Some of the nutrition stuff he's spouted has been... I was going to say nonsense, but it's actually just damaging some of the stuff he comes out with.Also, on the other hand, I feel like, maybe this is giving him too much credit, I always feel like his heart is in the right place, but he just goes about it in completely the wrong way. I don't know if you would agree with that. When I hear him being interviewed, I feel like he's a really passionate guy who feels like he's doing the right thing, but he's just absolutely not.Because all of his content is focused on being lean and weight loss. And I just wish that... he's got such a huge platform now. It's terrifying. That if you had someone like him who could start promoting like a balanced and sensible message, it's never going to happen because he makes too much money now, then it would just be so powerful.Laura: But I don't know, like this piece around heart in the right place. I think we say that about a lot of these actually quite problematic white men. Joe Wicks, Jamie Oliver, I'm just gonna say it, don't @ me. But, of course their heart's in the right place, but their heart's also in their fucking bank balance, right?Michael: Completely, 100%. Laura: So that's one part of it, but also, I don't know when we can, when someone is, like you say, promoting harmful messages around food and around nutrition. And I don't. I think it matters where their heart is. Michael: Agreed. I wonder whether this... Laura: A murderer could use that justification to be like, Oh, well, this man is really toxic to women, so I'm just going to kill him.But that's not the solution. Michael: I know. I wonder whether kind of in my head, the reason I use those words is because I think of kind of the fitness industry as like a huge, like a line of like how problematic someone is. And I feel like he feels he's trying to do the right thing despite doing it very badly.Whereas you have a lot of people within the fitness space that go far beyond that, who are intentionally doing the really bad thing, trying to make a lot of money, it's still very bad. And Jamie Oliver is one of those as well, where he's got such a huge platform, thinks he knows what he's doing is the best thing, but it's just not. Like trying to ban the buy one get one free offers when people are really struggling to feed their families right now.It's just, I feel yes, hearts in the right place, but just no, like they need to be more informed and go about it in a better way. Laura: And especially when they are being given this feedback, right? Like it's one thing if you fuck up and you say, I was really wrong about that and I've learned some new information now like you have, right? And like I have. And you hold your hands up and you say, yeah, I was really fucking wrong and I'm sorry that I've caused harm and I don't want to do that anymore. I'm gonna learn and I'm gonna do better. And Michael: that's the sign of a good practitioner, right? And yeah. Laura: But speaking of Joe Wicks... Michael: Oh god!Laura: So, so you are a new ish parent, right? You have a seven month old. Michael: Yes, my son is seven months old, yeah. Laura: How do you feel about the prospect of Joe Wicks teaching your kid PE someday? Michael: Oh, just no, like awful. Yeah it's terrifying, isn't it? And these people do wangle their way into every aspect of our society of fitness.And there's just no getting away from them now. Personally, I never watched any of his school fitness things throughout lockdown. I know they're very popular. What was his wording? Did you watch any of them then with your kids? Laura: I didn't cause my little one was just a newborn at that point. And he's only three now.It just wasn't on my radar. I've seen his books. He has the burpee bears. And I've written a couple of like book reviews. They're super like, just tongue in cheek. But it strikes me as really problematic that he feels that we need to teach specific moves like burpees or other things like that to children, like to young children, like primary school age kids, and I don't really have a good justification for that because I'm not a fitness professional that other than does a five year old need to learn how to plank? Right? Or should we not be focusing on embodied movement that is climbing on play equipment in the playground or running or skipping or jumping or like, all of these things that kids, depending on their level of mobility and ability that they would intuitively do?Michael: I am completely with you there. I don't think we need to be teaching a five year old how to do a burpee. It's a bit ridiculous, to be honest. Yeah, that's the way that movement should be promoted and advertised to kids, if you want to use those kind of technical terms. It should just be about play and fun and movement, and that's... what it should be. Like if a kid sees their parent doing burpees or lifting weights and they want to try a bit out and get involved yeah, absolutely. But it just, it shouldn't be the go to, right? Yeah, absolutely. Laura: Yeah. My kid has seen me do a downward dog and he like gets involved and we do the cosmic kids yoga. I feel like that's a slightly different thing because it's a, it's so gentle and b it's animal poses. I don't know. All right. So I got sent through loads of questions from listeners and I thought they were really fun. So I just thought we could go through them. I think we've touched on a bit of it already, but maybe you can just give me your quick fire answers.Michael: Sure. Yeah. Laura: So this is an interesting question that Gwen from Dieticians for Teachers sent in. She said she would like to know more about the messages in your formal training. I think we can take a good guess, but I guess what she's getting at is, like, what toxic messages were in your formal training?Michael: Unfortunately, when you're learning to become a personal trainer still so much of it is about weight loss, still. You'll get taught, right, this is what we're going to learn about nutrition and this is how you help someone lose weight. So that is still at the core. And I guess a lot of the training for personal trainers, in terms of nutrition anyway, It's still very like basic government guidelines, which you can take those as you will. Some recommendations are maybe okay, others not that helpful. The training for nutrition for personal trainers is so, so, so, so basic that I would encourage any personal trainer who has recently qualified and not done any further nutrition study from there to please sign up to another course and learn more because what you learn as a personal trainer at the basic level is just nowhere near good enough to work with clients in depth.Laura: I have a lot of thoughts about personal trainers and nutrition, but I'm going to keep them to myself! Michael: No, no feel free to talk about it! It terrifies me. And it's very rare now that... a lot of the people I work with have had personal trainers in the past. The large majority of them have had negative experiences, and it's quite scary that's now just the norm.And I'll ask questions of my clients in consultations whilst working together and they'll be like, Oh, I've never been asked that before. I've never even considered that. And it just blows my mind that these things are being missed out or neglected by coaches. But the training is just not there. Laura: It's so interesting that the focus, I mean, it's not surprising, but that the focus is still on body size and not like flexibility or mobility or like rehab or like any of these, which I'm sure they like get touched on, but it sounds like from what you're saying that the real central focus is not mental health or like overall wellbeing. It's here's how you try and get people shredded, which we know is like biogenetically, if not difficult, if not impossible for most people. Michael: Pretty much. Yeah. Like I'm sure... I don't want to call out every personal training course. Like I did qualify a few years ago now, but I know there's some personal training qualifications that are trying to shift that, but it is still a large majority.And that is why a lot of the coaches coming through now, it's still very much before and after photos, weight centric. Yeah, unfortunately. Laura: Well, it's good to know that maybe there are some shifts coming down the pipe a little bit and I guess it just goes to show why again, you need to keep, like, pushing these alternative messages.Okay. This I thought was a really interesting question. And so this person asked, is exercise truly necessary? I don't enjoy exercising, but I do move a lot during the day, running errands and running after a toddler, all while baby wearing a newborn. And then the follow up question is, and if it is necessary to exercise intentionally, what form of exercise is best for someone who wouldn't otherwise prioritise it? Michael: That's such a good question. And it's very nuanced as well, depending on the person's situation. I would say, I mean, no, it's not necessary if you're moving around a lot throughout the day. However, so many health benefits come from incorporating some form of like direct exercise that it would be really sad to not explore all the potential areas that people could incorporate exercise into their life that maybe might not be the mainstream approach, right? If you are someone who moves around a lot throughout your day, if you say running errands and your general movement and step count is actually really high, then you could argue that as long as you get your nutrition, right, you're doing pretty well.However, strength training. Every time someone comes to me, no matter what their fitness goals are, I try and incorporate some form of strength training that I can, but that can take so many different forms. Laura: This person is carrying a baby around! Michael: Right. Yeah, exactly. Which is strength training, right?Exactly. So it's... when I say strength training, a lot of people listening to this episode right now will automatically... they'll think, like, gym, barbells, dumbbells, heavy weights, and it can come in so many different forms and it can be with resistance bands, body weight, dumbbells, kettlebells, barbells at home. It can be like TRX, it can be like so many different ways that you might enjoy at some point. So don't just think, Oh, I'm not an exercise-y person. I've always hated it because there are so many different ways that we can incorporate exercise. That is a very vague answer. without me knowing much more about this person. However, if you can find a form of exercise you enjoy, that should be a priority because the health benefits are huge. Laura: I'm going to push back because this is my opinion, not necessarily based on scientific fact, but it does feel as though there is this tendency, and I'm also conscious of your bias as a fitness professional, that exercise is held up as the pinnacle of health.And it's like the one thing that we need to do in order to be healthy. And I'm not disputing that there are health benefits. I also am like curious about the magnitude of those benefits within the broader context of health and health behaviours, but also nesting that within sort of social determinants of health and like, how do we measure the effect size of exercise individually from, I don't know, sleep, other elements of mental health, community? I guess what I'm maybe trying to temper is like that there are so many, like, variables and factors that contribute to someone's overall picture of health and I appreciate that movement can be an important facet of that.Michael: Yeah, no I really like that point because it is so important and I think that's why it's important to approach exercise and hence why I said without knowing more about this person, it's hard to give an exact answer. I think it's important to look at all of those things in terms of context when you're trying to prescribe or recommend exercise to someone, right?Let's say that this person is, they're likely lacking in sleep right now at the moment, right? Because their life is very busy running around after small humans. If that person is exhausted and they have no free time at all. I'm not then going to say, right, you've got to go and exercise 30 minutes a day for three times a week, because it's just not going to be helpful. There's other areas of your lifestyle that we can focus on to improve your health. However, if there is a bit of wiggle room, if you have a bit of time, then maybe there are things that we could explore that you could quite comfortably fit into your day without it taking over your life like a lot of the fitness industry wants us to do. Laura: Yeah. I think that the, maybe the TL;DR there is you don't have to sweat it when you are running around after a small child and doing other, all these other things. But if it feels like it's something that you want to explore, and you're curious to give something a try, then yeah, you could have a think about some gentle movement or something, see how that feels and how that fits in the context of your life But yeah, it's tricky to prescribe something without knowing, yeah knowing someone's life and what they want to get out of it. Michael: So true and you're never gonna know if it was directly the exercise. It could be so many other things that then, yeah, that then causes the health benefit.I would just say, once again, like anecdotally, rather than looking at research, every person that I've worked with that we've tried to think, right, how can we incorporate exercising today in some format? The large majority of the time, everything else feels better and improves as a result.Laura: Yeah, no , it can, it has a knock on effect on like sleep and pain and like all these other things. So, okay. How can I move my body without shame and guilt driving it? These are two separate questions, but I'm just lumping them together, and then this, another person asked, how to find the joy in movement after a life forcing it?Michael: I think first of all, it's really important to, like, vet where you're getting all of your inspiration and information from is a really important one because a lot of the time, if we're following the kind of general societal recommendations when it comes to exercise and nutrition. It's always going to have quite a prescriptive image focused approach to movement.And if you can shift away, like what we spoke about at the start of this, you don't follow many personal trainers because you don't think that they're motivating or helpful to you. They actually just make you feel worse. I'm the same. When I constantly see gym bros. telling me that I have to lift weights X amount of times a week, and I've got to get shredded and have low body fat levels, it has the complete opposite impact on me. So if you can first of all vet where you're getting your information from, that is absolutely huge. And then, yeah, I guess also once again, it's not beating yourself up for having the more mainstream thoughts that you used to have. I know a lot of people when they're trying to shift into kind of taking a more intuitive eating approach or a more intuitive eating approach with like exercise too, as well as nutrition, we can sometimes feel really guilty when we start slipping back into older habits that maybe are slightly disordered.I'm just... like giving yourself a bit of leeway and a bit of space to grow and learn. I'm still doing that. I still probably get things wrong and have room for improvement, but I think by doing that, removing the pressure on yourself can be really helpful. Laura: Yeah. Two things that I might add to that are something that I've explored with clients as part of working on the relationship with food and body and movement often comes up as part of that, we might explore this idea of, what it feels like in your body where you've had a period where you haven't moved at all, right? Maybe it's because you're recovering from an injury or because you just were so burnt out with exercise that you just really didn't move. How did that feel in your body? Did you get any pain or did it feel nice to rest or what was that experience? And then also thinking about periods of your life where maybe you've been really deeply invested in fitness culture. And maybe doing the punishing exercises, maybe also getting injuries because of that, maybe getting ill a lot of the time, maybe losing your period, like all kinds of different things, like different experiences that you could have in your bodies.If you've got that framing of this is what no exercise feels like in my body, and this is what too much feels like in my body, then it can help you explore what some sort of happy balance might feel like. So that's something that I encourage people to think about. And I also just wanted to shout out Tally Rye's Intuitive Movement Journal.It's her book Intuitive Movement as well. It is isn't it? Clients have found that those are helpful resources for navigating stepping back from exercise and just exploring what rest feels like through kind of the framework of, or a similar framework to intuitive being. So if intuitive being resonates with you, then maybe Tally's work will as well. So I'll link to them in the show notes. All right, this will be our last question. And it is: I cut out all deliberate movement for a while, by which I mean, I walk to get places and that's it. I'd like to try some movement. and see how it makes me feel. But where on earth do I even start? Michael: Okay, once again, without a lot of context, this is very hard to give specific advice.So I would say think about where you would feel most comfortable exercising and start from there. So I know that for a lot of people, the gym environment can be incredibly intense and intimidating for many reasons. So if you think that maybe that feels a bit much and it's going to put you off. Let's write that off. Don't do that. So let's think, okay, maybe we could start some movement at home. Is there a form of exercise that you really enjoy? Do you like dancing? Do you like jump rope? Do you like bodyweight workouts? What is it that kind of you think, Oh, actually that sounds quite fun to me and start there.And then let's say that there's so many decent content creators online, depending on what you like that I could recommend. Feel free to reach out and just start from that point. If you're thinking that kind of back to my earlier point that, okay, strength training doesn't have to look like that in the gym. What can it look like? A set of basic resistance bands from Amazon for 10 quid, you've got a gym at home. Like you don't have to go to a gym. There's so many different ways that it could look start from that start from what gives you that, Oh, that's interesting. I might give it a try, and start really, really small and build from there and that's probably the best place to start. Laura: If someone hasn't done much movement other than, like, incidental daily movements for a while... there's obviously a lot of privilege in this question but I'm wondering if you would recommend like doing a couple of one on one sessions with a trainer, like a safe trainer that could help build up strength or make like a bespoke kind of program for someone or just help them with their form so that they... I'm maybe thinking of myself here, but I know that I have to be really careful what I do at home because I'm more likely to end up injuring myself just because of my like, specific needs and in terms of managing pain. And so what I've ended up doing... and again shitload of privilege in this but, I'm, after three years of pelvic girdle pain, I'm like, at my limit. So I've started seeing a physio one on one who does clinical Pilates. So it's like very much helping me build my strength, which I could do... like I was going to a barre class before that, but I was walking away with more pain, even though it was supposedly like a supervised class, like there were no adjustments. There were no like modifications for my body, like nothing. So I personally, I have found that trying to build my strength and reduce pain, like finding someone who's really specialised has been a game changer for me. Michael: Yeah, I would say... I was gonna say one of the benefits of COVID. That's not what I meant. I was gonna say for the benefits of kind of the lockdown that happened as a result of COVID is the fitness industry got pushed forward by about five to ten years in terms of the way that it can support people, especially on a tighter budget as well. There are now so many... Laura: oh, you mean like online?Michael: Online support, right? Because I know that personal training is an investment for a lot of people. It's not a cheap route to go down. If you can afford it, absolutely, yes. If you can have the support of a professional who's got years of experience, it does speed things up and it makes things a lot more kind of personalised and perhaps more enjoyable.However, the way that the online fitness space works now, it has improved massively. And for, kind of, much cheaper options, monthly options, you can get the support of a trainer online that will be able to do a video call with you to check your form. You can send them videos. Like I speak to people that follow me on Instagram all the time and they'll ask me a question. I'll say, just send me a video of you doing the exercise. I'm happy to give you some pointers. If you find people online that are truly passionate and care. If you send them a video of you doing an exercise, they'll happily help you out. So there are so many different routes that you can go down to get the support that don't cost a huge amount of money.Once again, even the cheaper forms are still an investment, but there are different routes that you can go down now. Yeah, absolutely. Laura: Yeah. Okay. I appreciate that. And then just to add to that, like I've done some sessions with this, like a one on one physio. And now I'm going to, like the group classes as well.So it's, I think, helpful to just... if you have any kind of rehab that needs to be done, or if you just want to feel more confident in the movements. Cause like Pilates can be tricky if you don't know exactly what you're doing to just be thrown into a class situation. So it's helped me at least like doing a few sessions, even though I've done Pilates before, but just having that refresher to then go into a class setting, it's just helped build up my confidence a little bit. And it's also, I'm not going to like this, like a gym. Sorry, I said that with so much disdain, realizing you're a personal trainer! Michael: Ugh, these disgusting personal trainers!Laura: It had, like, a visceral effect. Michael: It's so funny though, isn't it? That it's so sad that's what the fitness industry has become. And especially as a trainer who is one, every time I meet someone and they'll ask oh, what do you do? I have to like preface, Oh, like I'm not like the rest of them, but I'm a personal trainer, like it's really sad.Laura: I do the same thing, but with nutrition, I'm like, I'm a nutritionist, but I'm not that kind of nutritionist. Michael: I'm not going to sell you a cleanse, I promise! Laura: All right, Michael, this has been so fun to have you on and just shoot the shit about fitness culture. But at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been snacking on. So it can be a book, a podcast, a TV show. Yeah, just about anything that, that you feel like. So what are you snacking on at the moment? Michael: So one podcast I'm listening to, this is going to be a bit of a curve ball, there's probably quite a few people, especially in the UK listening to it... I don't like politics because in this country, it's so gross the way that politics is at the moment, but I like being well informed in what's going in politics because it has such a huge knock on impact to like societal changes.Laura: I was really glad that you said that, because when you said I don't like politics, I was like, argh where is this going! Michael: no, I do, but I get so infuriated by it because it's so important and I feel like coaches need to be informed because it does directly impact everything we're doing with our clients in terms of like socioeconomic impacts and food access and education and stuff, so I've been listening to The Rest Is Politics podcast. I don't know if you've ever listened to it. It's actually really good. It's Alastair Campbell, Rory Stewart, Labour side, Tory side. They chat about all daily topics and I quite like that they disagree and argue. I, depending on what you think about those two individuals, I'm still very mixed on what I think of them.However, I think it's very good to have a nice balanced approach there. So that's the podcast I've been listening to a lot recently. I really like it. In terms of food. So I can't eat eggs and dairy. I'm lactose intolerant and intolerant to eggs as well. Laura: I think you were probably going to wait for like the bummer, yeah, for me to be like, oh, that's such a bummer. But I'm vegan, so I don't eat any of that stuff . Michael: Yeah, I know. I was saying, I'm like the worst gym bro ever. I can't have whey protein shakes and I can't eat like 12 eggs a day. So maybe that's another reason they all hate me. So I found a vegan chocolate bar from Aldi. I don't know if you've ever had it. I don't think so. What? So they do milk, in quotation marks, milk chocolate and a white chocolate. They do a dark chocolate too, but a lot of vegan chocolate is dark. Anyway, so I haven't even tried that but their milk chocolate and their white chocolate is so good .And i'm getting through far too much of this chocolate at the moment but I finally found a chocolate bar that tastes amazing. They're by far the best chocolate you can get that's vegan, hands down Laura: That sounds really good, but we don't have an Aldi near us. We have a Lidl. Michael: So it's worth commuting. Laura: Oh, is it? Michael: Yeah. Yes. Laura: Okay. Might have to go to the dark depths of Dalston too.Okay. So I'm actually going to do a podcast also, and it's Getting Curious with Jonathan van Ness, which everyone knows who JVN is, obviously. He's amazing. Yeah, love them. There was like a bit of a thing a while ago where on their Netflix show they talked about like food addiction and it was just really problematic and icky and fatphobic. But JVN seems to have really been on a bit of a journey with this stuff and the latest, well, at the time that we are recording, they've just come out with a podcast called... well, an episode of their podcast Getting Curious called What's the Cultural History of the Calorie? With Dr. Athia Chaudhry. They're a fat activist and it's immersed in like fat politics. So, yeah. I would recommend going and giving that one a listen, because yeah, JVN has been on a journey, it seems. Michael: That sounds awesome. And that is my afternoon listening. Thank you very much. Laura: I will link to all of those things in the show notes.Michael, before I let you go, can you tell everyone where they can find out more about you and your work? Michael: Of course, so, most of the content I create is through Instagram, so it's just my name, which is very hard to spell, so probably best if you check it in the show notes. Laura: Yeah, I will link to everything.Michael: Thank you very much. So it's @MichaelUlloaPT, and that's on Instagram, Threads, Twitter, TikTok, whatever platform, it's all the same. Laura: All right, Michael, I will make sure that... It's all fully linked in the show notes so that everyone can find you. Thank you so much for coming on and yeah, like I said before, shooting the shit with us about fitness culture was really fun.Michael: Thank you so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening.ICYMI this week: "I'm Not Your Target Audience" - How Do We Get Men To Care?* Reclaiming our Appetites* MORE Teens, TikTok, and some Good News for a Change.* Dear Laura: I'm freaking out about what my kids eat - but is it really about them? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Today I'm speaking to Sarah Sproule (she/them), a sex educator, an occupational therapist, as well as a mother of three teens. Sarah uses their skills to ensure that every parent and caring adult knows how to build a deeper connection with their growing kids, and believes that no child should ever feel alone and unable to reach out for help with their body, their boundaries, or their needs. Or their knowledge about sexuality.In this episode, we are talking about ‘sensitive things' with our kids, plus reclaiming the ‘C word'. We dive into the following topics;* The ‘invisible influence of normal'* Showing kids we're a trusted person to talk to about sensitive things* Why we don't want to wait until sex ed classes to start talking about sex* Teaching kids about body boundaries* Answering your Qs about: * How to explain to kids why you do some things in private?* 4 year olds asking BIG questions you're not sure they're ready for* 3 year olds who are resistant to challenging gender stereotypes* How to support your child when someone is asking invasive questions* Plus Sarah shares the unknown history of the C word!Find out more about Sarah's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Enrol in the Raising Embodied Eaters course here.Here's the transcript in full:Sarah Sproule: I drew analogies between talking about sensitive things and other parts of parenting. So, I don't know a single other parent who waited for their child to ask them for a stem of broccoli before they gave it to them. Right? And we know that broccoli's really great. I don't know a parent who waited for their child to ask them, Can you please show me how to cross the road? Because I want to stay safe. Like, there are so many things we do, we take initiative for, because we know it's important for the health and safety and joy of our child. INTROLaura Thomas: Welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we are talking about appetite, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. Today, I'm talking to Sarah Sproule. Sarah, who uses she/them pronouns, is a sex educator, an occupational therapist, as well as a mother of three teens.Sarah uses their skills to ensure that every parent and caring adult knows how to build a deeper connection with their growing kids. She believes that no child should ever feel alone and unable to reach out for help with their body, their boundaries, or their needs. Or their knowledge about sexuality.In this conversation, we talk about what Sarah calls the ‘invisible influence of normal'; all the things, spoken and unspoken, that shape how we think about bodies, sex, pleasure, periods, and more. And we talk about why it's important to approach these conversations with our kids early and in a non-judgmental way that prioritises connection and helps inoculate them against body shame.We talk about supporting kids to trust their body boundaries and how that can help them use their voice when something doesn't feel right. Plus we answer your questions like how to teach kids that maybe it's best not to touch their penis at the dinner table, without inadvertently shrouding them in shame.Obviously this is a conversation about sensitive topics to do with sex, and at one point we do mention rape and other forms of violence. We also use the C word quite liberally towards the end, which Sarah and I are comfortable with, but we understand that it may not be for everyone. So all of that is to say, listen at your discretion and take care of yourself. I will say, though, that Sarah is extremely compassionate and thoughtful in how she approaches these topics. So I hope you'll find this to be a safe and nourishing conversation. Just before we get to Sarah, I wanted to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter and community and whole wider universe.So until the end of September, I'm running a 15% off sale on the cost of annual memberships. So instead of paying £50 a year, you would pay £42.50 and that gets you access to the monthly Dear Laura columns where I answer your questions. It gets you access to the whole CIHAS archive, it gives you commenting privileges, plus weekly discussion threads tackling the big issues like…how clean is your fridge? And who are you dressing for on the school run? It's a really welcoming space where we learn from each other, share with folks who have a similar world view to us, and we have a lot of fun. And of course it's a completely diet, body shame-free space.  I wanted to quickly share what one CIHAS reader said recently. They shared this review saying: “Laura's Substack is a lifeline in a world where diet culture and fatphobia is pervasive in all aspects of our lives including how we feed our children. Every time I start to worry about my toddlers eating and that internalised diet culture mentality starts bubbling up, it's Laura's voice telling me that it's all going to be okay. Through her invaluable work on CIHAS, she's genuinely keeping me sane and empowering me to navigate feeding my child and making the right decisions for my family. The paid subscription is more than worth it. Thanks, Laura.” Well, thank you for that really sweet review. And like I said, we're running a sale for the rest of September and you can sign up at laurathomas.substack.com and I'll drop the link in the show notes so you can find it really easily. And by becoming a paid subscriber, not only do you get the sweet perks that I mentioned earlier, but more importantly, your contributions help make this work sustainable. All right, team, let's get to today's guest. Here's Sarah.  MAIN EPISODEHey, Sarah, can you start by telling us a little bit about you and the work that you do, please? Sarah: I support parents and other adults who are raising children to speak about sensitive things. So that's a euphemism for puberty, genitals, babies, growing up, sex, relationships, all that sort of stuff that might seem a little bit like…eeeeh!...when you think about having conversations about that with kids.And that work is important to me. I'm an occupational therapist, but I do that work because I was one of the kids that would have really benefited from way more open and sort of practical conversations about all that sort of stuff. My mum and dad were missionaries and we grew up in Nigeria for most of my teens, but yeah, even though mum was a nurse and she would have told me how my brother was born and all the bits and bobs and… Laura: Yeah, the gory details.Sarah: Yeah. I think because I had undiagnosed ADHD particularly, it meant that if things weren't repeated and part of everyday life, I just forgot. So I got to be nine years old and I thought sperm flew through the air to get to the egg. So I didn't want the children that I was raising to have that same experience.And so here we are now, Masters in Sexuality Studies. I've been doing this now for a few years, and it just feels like the more I do it, the more I realised that this is the exact sort of work that…all my experiences growing up and being a neurodiverse person…it's all set me up for this. So that's a great sense of joy to feel so aligned with work and with who I am as a person.Laura: For sure. And thank you for sort of walking us through that transition from OT to sexuality studies to what you're doing now. And I think it's so interesting that your background is in OT because – and that's occupational therapy for anyone who isn't familiar with that acronym – because it really shines through in the work that you do.And I think that's the only other allied health professionals, I think, would see that, but definitely you can see the echoes of that. And I think it's such a great foundation for the more coaching-centered work that you're doing. So you sort of alluded to this in what you were saying there, but you talk a lot about this concept of the ‘invisible influence of normal'. Can you unpack that a bit more for us and tell us what that is? Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So wherever we live, in whatever sort of country or city or family, there are influences on us from those cultures, whether it's family culture, city culture, farm culture, Irish culture, Australian culture, whatever. Those influences or those…the messages we're given subtly show us what normal is.So normal could be being married with children, for example, and not that anyone might have ever said that to us, what's normal is to get married and have kids, but maybe it's an assumption in the way people ask young children or growing people questions about what they want to do in the future, how many kids they want. Like if someone asked someone how many kids you want, there's an invisible assumption there that they want children. So this invisible influence of normal impacts us, not just when we're growing up, but it impacts adults who are raising children as well, because if we lived in a family that didn't use penis and vulva or clitoris as words for genitals with children, then we're going to grow up into adults who…the invisible influence of normal will have said, sort of shaped, you don't use those words with kids. And that's just normal. That's what sort of we grew up to expect. And that's just one example. There are lots of other ways like what is normal just gets sort of embedded into our consciousness, maybe without even our own awareness. So a lot of the times this “normal idea of normal” – and I'm using my fingers in air quotes – we might not realise that it's impacting how we speak to the small people in our life until we have a particular experience. Like it could be something like having a conversation with another parent at the school gate or in childcare, where they speak about, say, walking around nude in their home and all of a sudden you realise, what? Some people think it's normal or okay to walk around nude in front of their kids at home. What? And all of a sudden everything sort of shakes a bit, you know, in our world view. Laura: What I'm hearing you say is that this invisible influence of normal, it shapes our ideas of what is acceptable, what is taboo.And ultimately, I think it shapes whether we have a shame response to something, or whether we can talk openly and transparently about, you know, like you say, sensitive subjects without them becoming, yeah, something that we have to hide or feel shame about. Is that a fair way of kind of putting it? , Sarah: Yeah, that's a beautiful way of saying it.So this story came into my mind and I wanted to share it. So picture me 13 years ago. And I have like a five year old, a three year old and a one year old and it's Saturday. So if any of the people listening are anything like us…Saturdays, we're like, we're just trying to eke out every single minute of sleep, or at least being horizontal in the bed that we can manage, you know, and so our three kids playing around the room, the doors locked so that they can't get into trouble. And you can hear this sort of splashing in the bathroom and I get out of bed and I go in and have a look. There's a five year old has taken some condoms out of the bedside drawer – because condoms were our contraceptive method of choice at the time. And opened up the packet, given one to her brother, one for herself, and they've got them in the basin, they're trying to fill them up like water balloons. And I'm at the door and I'm looking in the door and, like, my breath catches in my throat….cause, like, your kids are touching something that is related to penises.  Laura: Oh it's so dirty! Sarah: So it's sort of like, this is the first time I ever thought of anything related to this work, right? And I call out to my partner. I go, John, the, the kids are playing with condoms…and this is my really traditional Irish Catholic husband sort of says, Yeah, so what?  I'm like, they're condoms! And he goes, So? And it was in that moment that I was like, Oh, hang on a minute. So for me, that was a moment when that invisible influence became visible. It was like, yeah, if he thinks this and I don't think that, what's going on here, what's…what's happening? And so it was a really clear moment in time for me.I was like. Oh, there are things at play here. There's, there is influences at play here that I didn't even realise. Um, and I think it was particularly clear because in my mind, John was sort of very traditional and I was like the uber progressive Australian parent living in Ireland. So it was quite a shock.And that's where this whole process for me of really looking and seeing what I thought was right that was unexamined and how that was really leading me down the same path to treat my kids the same way that I was treated, which was…yes, we can answer questions, but at the end of the day, sex and things related to adults, like life, children had to be protected against because it is in some way dangerous and sort of wrong. And of course there are lots of things about adult sexuality that, yes, are not appropriate for children, but there are a whole stinking lot of things that families can talk about in a way that is educational and supportive and kind and open and connecting. And when we don't allow ourselves access to those topics of conversation, we're losing the chance, not just to inform our children. That, to me, in my work is a secondary thing. The information exchange, that's a secondary thing. What's more important is that we are creating moments over and over again, where we prove and show ourselves to be someone, an adult, a trusted adult, who can talk about pretty much anything and everything. And we do that with understanding and we do it in a way that is respectful of our children and their ability to understand stuff. When that shift happens in an adult's mind that they realise that talking about sensitive things is a bridge over which they build a connection with their child and which will last a lifetime because it will last a lifetime, then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, okay. So this might be awkward and I might not know how to do it, but God damn it. I really want to try because I understand what is possible if I make this effort.  Laura: Yeah, and again, what I'm hearing you say is that you're prioritising the relationship that you have with your child over and above your own comfort and probably other people's comfort, people around you, maybe grandparents, maybe other parents at the school, teachers even, that your, your child might come into contact with. And that kind of leads me to a question that I, I was thinking about for you, which was around why it is so important for us, as parents, as carers, as guardians, to be the people that are starting these conversations with our children, these, like you say, sensitive conversations, and that could, I think, range from calling genitals by their correct names all the way through to puberty and periods.Why does it feel so important for it to be coming from us rather than, you know, waiting until Sex Ed at school or waiting until they hear something in the playground? Sarah: Again, it's about creating connection. I think about it from the perspective of how many years an adult, either a parent or a caregiver in some other capacity, is with their child or their young person, right?So I will often say that, okay, so If our kids stay with us until they're 23, just pick a number. You've got 23 years of meals and negotiations about bathroom time and conversations about going out with friends and all that, where your child has the opportunity to come to tell you something that's difficult or worrying for them or where they can ask you a question that is going to make the difference between them being able to speak up for themselves in a tricky situation or not. So your child is around you lots and lots and lots. Whereas if they first hear something sensitive, like how babies are made or what sex actually is from a teacher at school, that teacher may only be there for, say, 10 months of their life and then they're gone. And so when your child is thinking about the memories of how they learned particular things, a teacher's face will come up, but your face won't. And what that means is when they have a question or a concern or something tough is happening in their world, there's not that sort of memory that connects you and sensitive, awkward, unpleasant, difficult, concerning, but also exciting life events in the head, right? So it's very much about, again, how can we build that connection? How can we demonstrate to a child or a young person that we talk about this stuff. I drew analogies between talking about sensitive things and other parts of parenting. So I don't know a single other parent who waited for their child to ask them for a stem of broccoli before they gave it to them.  And we know that broccoli is really great. I don't know a parent who waited for their child to ask them, can you please show me how to cross the road, because I want to stay safe. Like, there are so many things we do that we take initiative for because we know it's important for the health and safety and joy of our child.And this area of being human, this developing sexual self is no different when you sort of look at it like that. Most of the time people go, oh yeah, I see what you're saying there, I wouldn't wait for my child to ask me to send them to swimming lessons. I mean, some of us might've done that before our child was even one. So it's far more about realising that our parenting approach, if it's different, only in the sensitive conversation section, then that's showing us that there's something behind that, that needs to be examined so that we can show up for our child in the best way. Laura: If you think about it from the perspective of, you know, like a, I don't know, a seven year old saying to another seven year old in the playground, oh duh duh duh, sex, penis, vulva, and that's complete news to your seven year old. I can imagine that that would be attached to, again, shame, embarrassment, of not knowing that information or that completely, like, coming out of the blue, versus if you've already maybe laid some foundations and some groundwork, then your child might have the language to be like…Or maybe they don't have necessarily, like, they can't explain all the ins and outs of it, but they can be like, oh, yeah, that's something I've heard of, and maybe I can go home to this trusted person and get some more details or ask some more questions. I suppose that's the kind of, I would imagine, you know, the ideal way that that scenario plays out rather than a child who just feels so overcome by shame and embarrassment that they don't have anywhere to go with that information.Sarah: Absolutely. And I mean, that scenario that you've pictured, that's probably actually best case scenario for a child that doesn't know anything. A more problematic scenario might be where a child tells another child something that's just completely and utterly wrong. Like one of my kids came home from school, I think they were probably 10, and he came home and he said, mum, Michael at school told us that rape means having sex with someone and then killing them.And I was like, Oh, that's not right, is it? Because we'd had those conversations. So it's not just about setting your child up to not be surprised by things, but actually if you've got there first with the accurate information, inaccurate stuff tends to like, they don't grab onto it and go, Oh, okay.Because…you know, think about that. It's quite damaging for a child or a young person to think that rape is having sex with someone and then killing them because then they don't understand what rape really is, you know, and so there's all sorts of complexity and difficulty that sort of arise from that.And, and I imagine that any…well, I would hope that any young person would go through the education system and very quickly get the correct definition given to them at some point in the curriculum, but nevertheless. It's not a great introduction if they're getting inaccurate information from a peer.Laura: Yeah, because you're completely missing the whole, you know, really important opportunity to talk about consent.And so speaking of consent, I wanted to – and maybe this will help us take some of these more abstract concepts and put them into more concrete terms, but something that I've noticed since becoming a parent is how entitled people feel to kids' bodies, you know, whether it's hugs or kisses or touching them in some way.Like, I was with my three year old the other day and someone from their pre-school, a teacher, ran up behind them and picked them up and scooped them up, and it scared the shit out of me, never mind my three year old. And of course it was coming from a well intentioned, loving place, because I know that they have a good relationship, but it feels like such a tricky one to navigate as a parent.And I have a lot of thoughts about this. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how we begin to teach kids about their body boundaries and what is okay and not okay in terms of people accessing their bodies and, and talking about who they share their bodies with and in what capacity. Sarah: The best way to learn things is through experience.So we could spend, you know, all day, every day saying to our child, you know, your body, your choice, you get to decide what's done to your body. But if we don't create an environment at home where that is lived rather than just spoken, then that makes it difficult. So children who – and I was one of these kids, actually – children who their voices aren't heard, we – I'm going to say, we – we grow up, we lose sense of what our truth is, right? So here's something that I've been thinking about lately. One of the adults in my community asked a question about school refusal. In my world, it's ‘school can't' or ‘school avoidance'. If a child is…said we just have to go to school anyway. You just have to go. That's what we do. We have to go. The message there is it doesn't matter how you feel. There are some things that just have to be done because it's always been done like that, right? You can imagine that if that model is placed on a relationship and our child grows up to be a young adult and is in a relationship with someone who is very clear on the way things should be. So for example, I had a relationship for a time with a person and, in the process of negotiating our physical intimacy, I remember an interaction where I said, we'll need some lube. And this person says, Oh no, we don't need lube. And, now, it was a big deal for me to even say we need lube, but the other person being so clear, like we don't need it. I just completely, like, shut down. That was it. Okay, well then that must be true because what the other person is saying, which is opposite to me must be true because that was something that was demonstrated over and over and over again in my growing up. And I'm bringing up school refusal because it's so…it's really difficult. It presses a lot of buttons in an adult, you know, a child who doesn't want to go to school. That's probably one of the more complicated places where respecting our child's voice and their deep inner knowing of what is right for them is going to be hard, whereas maybe a little bit easier in, if it was, do you want to go to the beach or do you want to, you know, go over to Jimmy's house and jump on his trampoline. Like it won't matter so much what our child says, if they say jump on the trampoline and we would have preferred to go to the beach, we're like, oh, we'll go and jump on the trampoline. But, so there's sort of like a, you know, like a continuum of the places in raising children where it's easier to respect who they are and their interests and what they want, versus the ones that are more difficult. And oftentimes the ones that are more difficult will be the ones where it puts us, as the adult, in a position where we have to go against someone in authority, or someone whose opinion we really value and we're concerned about their response when we're sort of advocating for our child.So it's no easy thing, but it really is about your child's experience of being heard, seen, believed, honoured. Yeah.Laura:  Yeah. You remind me a lot of a conversation I had with the psychologist, Hillary McBride, who is author of the book Wisdom of Your Body, and she talks a lot about embodiment, and we had a conversation about children's embodiment, and it was, you know, there, there are situations, of course, where we can't let our kids stay home because we have to go to work and we don't have any other form of childcare. As much as we would love to stay home with them all day and to let them rest and get all the things that they need, but again, late stage capitalism doesn't allow that. One of the things that she pulled out was just this idea that, even when we have to hold a boundary with our child, that we believe their experience, that we trust them and that we kind of, yeah, validate, I think, their experience because that will enable them to hold on to that seed of being able to trust their own embodied wisdom. You're nodding away there. I don't know if you have anything else that you would like to add to that.  Sarah: Yeah. So in my world, sometimes parents will say, yeah, but like consent is all very well, but what about, I've got a two year old who doesn't want to get into their car seat and we were going to wherever we're going and they have to be in the car seat.I'm like, yeah, yes, they do absolutely have to be in the car seat. And so in my world, I would be talking about informed consent versus like consent. And so a two year old doesn't have enough information and understanding about the implications for what they want to do. They don't understand that that puts them in danger.And so understanding that, while a two year old is very sort of clear on what they need, we have more information. That doesn't mean what they need is wrong. It just means we have more information and we need to facilitate sort of understanding, and that can be really hard when your two year old is doing the banana body and just, there's no way you can get the seatbelt on, you know?And so oftentimes it's about creating a culture when that clash of needs is not happening. So when your two year old is screaming, saying no, about getting in the seat, that's not the time to sit down and explain various things, but maybe there's another time the following day. Where it's possible to say, you know, I love you and my job is to keep you safe.And let's think of all the ways you need to be kept safe, or some of the ways. And you can list off, you know, electricity and fire and other things and then say, and did you know, cars are really dangerous if we don't have seatbelts on, just very like, little drops of knowledge and then I suppose that we can set our two year old up for success.And that could look like…like kids do really well with context, connection and choice, right? So getting to the car, setting context, in half an hour, we're going to need to get in the car. What does your body need to do before we do that? Do you want to run around? What sort of, what busyness? Because you remember, we're going to have to sit in the seat with the belt on.So context, connection, getting down and showing them that you see them. I love you. And I know that your body has a hard time being in the car seat. What can I do to help you out? Like letting them know, we see them, we understand what their experience is like. And then the choice is really offering as much choice as possible.So the seatbelt isn't a non-negotiable thing, but maybe there's other choices. Would you like to take a toy? Or would you like to choose the music? Or would you like to have a special blankie or like try and find all the ways that if your kid, the feeling of at least a little bit of autonomy so that you can keep them safe without too much conflict.And I…like I had three two year olds, I know it's not easy and we're all strapped for time. But if you sort of take a step back and think about it in the broader context, it's not just about that moment where you're trying to put them into the car. Context, connection, and choice are one of those things that's going to help you help your kid. And if you can do that, you feel good. Don't you? As a parent and like, Oh, like, wow. For the first time ever, my two year old got into the car seat without a screaming match. Like that's a win. And that helps me anyway, feel warm and fuzzy.  Laura: Oh, it definitely makes such a difference when you feel like you're maxed out, but then you get that win.And I mean, you're speaking my language, Sarah, and it's the exact same approach that I would take to a child who was struggling to come to the table, or who was really having a hard time eating and getting everything that they needed from food, you know, that connection piece is so important. And I will spare you the TED talk about everything that I see on Instagram that prioritises like these cheap wins over real connection over the feeding relationship. So yeah, I'll rein it back to what we're talking about here. Sarah: You know, when I was thinking about this, that we're going to have this conversation together, I was imagining that you and I at work would probably be that thing where we're holding onto different parts of the elephant. And while my work may look different, it's two parts of exactly the same thing. So I'm pleased to hear that is absolutely the case. Laura: 100%. So I got quite a few questions sent in. I'm not sure if we'll have time to go through them all, but I would really love to get your take on them. So these were sent in on Instagram that, you know, in the Instagram boxes, it's like a really tiny little space. So not all of them have all the context that I think we would need. I'll just shoot anyway. So the first one was “How to explain to kids why some stuff you do in private”. Again, there's no context here, but I'm going to assume that this parent means that their child is touching their vulva or their penis.Maybe…I mean, unless you have any other thoughts as to what might be going on there, but that seemed to be the most obvious thing to my mind. Sarah: Yeah, well, let's assume that. It's like anything else. We can think of other scenarios, that something is right in one context, but not another context. So oftentimes I will say, well, when we're going for a picnic in the park and we're sitting on a blanket. It makes total sense to use our hands, right? Cause we're probably eating a sandwich or a muffin or something, but when we go to granny's house and she served us tomato soup in a bowl, then what makes the most sense is to use a spoon. Or what do we wear when we go to the local swimming pool? Wear our swimmers. What do we do when we go to watch a movie in the cinema? Well, it wouldn't make sense at all to wear our swimmers. We'd get cold in the air conditioning anyway. We need maybe some trousers and a T-shirt. Same thing. With our genitals, depending on where our genitals are or like where our body is, well, there'll be different rules for them.So when we're on our own, when we're in the bathroom, when we're in our room, our genitals are our own. We can touch them and feel them and notice what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And you know, we wash our hands afterwards to make sure we don't spread any germs around the place, but your genitals are yours and you get to touch them and do with them whatever way you want. When we're outside, all the other people, they're allowed to not want to see us playing with our genitals, right? So we don't do it. Because if we didn't have that rule whereby people don't play with their genitals in public, then a lot of people might start playing with their genitals on the bus or in the playground or at school. And then it would be chaos. Not everyone wants to see other people's genitals or their hands down there. So it's just about common courtesy, really. And using analogies for other parts of life, where that same dynamic applies, it tends to ease us adults who are feeling a little bit squeaky about having that conversation in, because it's like, this is the same dynamic that plays out everywhere else in human existence. It just so happens because this is about genitals. Sometimes we're like, eh, I don't know what, help, help. Because maybe we're trying to reduce the likelihood of our child feeling shame, probably because when we were growing up, we were made to feel ashamed by what the adults around us said, and not because they were perhaps doing that on purpose, but because that's what they… Laura: They didn't have it shown to them. Yeah. Sarah: They, they didn't know. And most likely they would've been doing it with good intentions. Yeah. Some of us, you know, the adults that cared for us did not have good intentions. For the most part, though, most adults do, whatever level of ability we have talking about sensitive things is exactly right, depending on what's been in our past.So just because someone in the playground, a parent, is really good at this stuff, and we're not, that doesn't mean they're a better parent. They were just dealt a different hand and that's just the way it is.  Laura: Yeah. I hear you say that it's really important to have some self compassion when you are thinking about these issues.Thinking about having these conversations with your kid, but you kind of get that lump in your throat and you're not really quite sure how exactly to handle them, that just thinking about it, is a really good starting point, isn't it? And then from there, if you notice, Oh, I'm…well, it's checking in with your own bodily experiences, right, and saying, okay, what's coming up for me and where do I need some support or some help or some resources to help me open up these conversations.I really love the analogies that you use because these…yeah, it's a very similar thing, you know, talking about context and what's appropriate – I have some feelings about the word appropriate, but let's not get into that. One question that kind of came to my mind as you were explaining how you might approach that conversation. I'm curious if other parents might have this same thought, is that oftentimes in books around body boundaries and consent, they talk about your genitals as being private. So you know, one of the books that we have talks about how everything that's underneath your bathing suit, you know, it's your body, it's private.Would you use that kind of language, or how might you use that language? Do you find that helpful, or not so much? Sarah: There's a lovely author called Cory Silverberg, and they wrote three books for children of various ages. Laura: They're so good, these books. Sarah: Yeah, they're great. That author coined this idea of middle parts, and so the idea is rather than using private parts, using middle parts to generally describe genitals, because when we talk about private parts, it's just…it makes it complicated to give a child shame-free ownership of those parts of their body, right? One of the shifts in a family culture that can be really useful is this idea that in our family, we talk about everything.So, in a sense, particularly when kids are small, genitals aren't really private in families. Right? Laura: This is the exact thing that I've bumped up against with my three year old who still needs me to wipe his butt. And so there is that confusing thing of like, well, if this is private, but I need help with this or, you know, I still need to bathe him.And even the example that you gave earlier where we walk around our house nude, but we don't go outside nude, right? Like that can be a confusing thing. So I'm sorry to interject, but it just…you're articulating the exact, the exact thing that I have bumped up against. Sarah: Yeah. And so I suppose, again, it's another demonstration of something that manifests in lots of different ways in our parenting, but because it's to do with genitals, it's a bit like, Oh, not quite sure how this works.So the whole dynamic of raising children is that in the beginning, we're having to do a lot of things for them that they will eventually do themselves, feeding, cleaning, dressing, even sort of communicating, like taking the whole burden of communication off them onto us. So we're interpreting sounds and body language and all that sort of thing.So you can explain that dynamic to a child and say that there are certain parts of our body that are more sensitive than others and middle parts or genitals like penis or a vulva or whatever, there's a lot of special skin on those parts. And what that means is that they need special care, right? Now, when you're grown up and when you're, you know, maybe you're 8 or you're 10, you're going to wash those and put your clothes on those parts of your body. And you won't really need an adult's help at all. And you probably definitely won't want an adult's help, but while you're still small and I'm having to help you do a few other things, this is one of the parts of your body that, that you need help with.And my job is to help you eventually do it all on your own. Right. You would need to also say that bit about only trusted people help us with our most sensitive parts of ourselves. Right. And I suppose as a reminder that it's not just genitals we're talking about here. We're also talking about anus and we're talking about mouth because those are parts of the body too that can be used in ways that are really hurtful for people who don't have a child's best interest at heart. So when you're framing it in that way, there's less sense of like…the word private tends to put a shroud over things where, if you're talking about the sensitive special skin and special parts, then it's more like it's an honour and a privilege sort of thing, like to support you in this part of your being human. And to me, it just feels more gentle and collaborative and kind of nurturing. Laura: Yeah, I often thought about, like, the language of private parts as well as being a little bit confusing from the perspective of, like, as in when kids mature into young adults where they might want to start sharing their bodies with other people in a respectful, consensual way.Again, if it's got that sort of private, you know, shroud of shame connotation, then that's going to be a lot harder for them to do that in a way that, that feels safe.Sarah:  I'm laughing because I remember a meme that I saw, it would have been years ago now, but it was like, lies we tell children, number one, we don't lick other people's private parts.And just sort of like this, like head in the hand, like face palm, like, moment where, well, actually, when you get older…And I suppose what it illustrates is, when we're talking to kids, we have all this information and knowledge about where things could go as adults, right? They don't have an understanding of that.And I suppose it's no harm really to allow ourselves as adults to simplify it at a particular point in time, right? Knowing that as our kids get older, that truth that we've told will no longer be true. Right. And so, and that's where resources like Cory Silverberg's book, Sex is a Funny Word or, You Know Sex. Sex is a Funny Word is for around, around seven and eight years, And, You Know Sex is sort of for 10 to 14 year olds where it's really clear, it's a lot about how our bodies are instruments of pleasure, right? Which is often another conversation that adults find hard to have with kids. You know, that classic thing where you have that conversation about how babies are made or well, sperms and eggs get together and a penis goes into a vagina, if those two people want to do that, or you might talk about IVF or artificial insemination, but if it's a penis in a vagina… Laura: It leaves out a whole part of the conversation as to why people have sex. Yeah. Sarah: Exactly. And so oftentimes the kids will come back and say, all right, so I've been thinking about that. So that means you and dad did that twice, right? And parents will go, Oh, which actually just demonstrates that, like you said, a whole section of the conversation that was was left out about pleasure. So I think in these moments, when we're talking to kids about boundaries and safety, it's possible to simplify it a bit, knowing that down the road, one of our important jobs is to bring this whole pleasure and sharing our bodies with other people, and that naturally comes as they grow older and they start cluing in on more things to do with…they see the diversity in relationships around their extended community and family, you know, like if you have a same sex couple in your community, it makes it so much easier. And thank you to all the out gay and bi people, right?Because it makes it so much easier to have the pleasure conversation because it's so clear that if a child has had those conversations that sex really is only a penis and a vagina that all of a sudden you get this beautiful opportunity to talk about, well, actually intimacy is so much more about pleasure and how bodies feel good and how, when we share our body with someone else and we trust them and they trust us, then we get to help another person's body feel really good.There are lots of different ways that that happens. And then remember that in parenting, sometimes you don't have to say everything, like you can…Um, if you have a child who really needs things to be quite concretised, so an autistic child, for example, who really needs very specific communication. I'm autistic, I know what it means when someone's beating around the bush and I have to say, can you just tell me, tell me exactly what you mean by that? What does that mean? And then they're clear. And I'm like, okay, fine. And there are children like that, but some kids, you know, the information layers on over time, so it's far more about just holding your nerve and knowing that over the weeks and the months and the years to come, there'll be lots of opportunity to do and say and read all the things.Laura: And that's exactly what I was going to say is, reminding ourselves that, that this isn't a one and done conversation, that we will be having, if we're lucky and privileged to continue having these conversations with our kids, if they trust us enough to keep coming to us for these conversations, then it will be an iterative, as you say, layering on more information and more nuance as they developmentally can grasp that.So, I'm really curious to hear your answer to this question, because I bet there's a ton that you would love to say, but the person who sent this question in asked, “Four year old is asking questions, I'm not sure she's actually ready to hear the answer about, what do I do?” Sarah: I always say that if a child is asking the question, then they need to know the answer.Oftentimes in parenting advice, you'll hear people say, first of all, you ask them, well, what do you know already? And again, I go back to that old thing about, okay, where else in parenting do we check, well, what do you know already? Like there may be some places where you genuinely want to know, okay, do you know the basics of the solar system, for example? And so then I can just tell you, answer the question based on your knowledge, but oftentimes adults will use that, what do you know already as a way to sort of like create space. Laura: Or deflect. Sarah: Yeah, deflect. That's right. Or create space. And that's not a bad thing if your brain is trying to catch up. But all I would say is, a four year old has huge amounts of capacity for understanding sperms and eggs and uteruses and testicles and lots of things. And as a general rule, if we think a child isn't old enough to get the answer to something, it's probably because there's something in our past or a worry that we have that we don't know is there.So short answer, answer the question and see what happens, and use simple language in a way that you would use for answering any other questions you might ask. Laura: It's interesting, just maybe a point of difference in how we might approach things, because if a, for example, if a child came to me and asked, is this healthy for me? Like this food. Usually, I would be really curious to know, okay, well, I'm interested, what do you think? Do you think this is a healthy food? Just to get a gauge of, like, what information they've picked up or what they've learned so that I'm kind of starting from where they are and then maybe building from there.But I also see, like, how in certain situations it could be, like, Oh, fuck. I'm in too deep here. So let's just get the kid to do the hard work for me. Yeah. Sarah: And I guess, again, it's about how much stigma and shame culturally exists around a topic. There's a lot of stigma and shame that exists around…there is a lot of cultural shit around your topic as well, right? They're both heavily laden. Laura: But I would argue that you probably, uh, win on this, Sarah: Yeah. Yay! My topic's more stigmatised! Laura: You got it, yeah! I think what we're saying is, the point is to have the conversation, right? To think about, and again, what we were saying before, noticing what comes up in us when that question is asked.Sarah: And if you need to buy time, one of the great ways to do it is to say, Oh, I love that question. I'm so glad you asked it. Even if you're lying because you're freaking out, reinforce how great it is that they brought that up. I love that question. I'm so glad you asked it. I want to make sure I give you the best answer I can. So I'll get back to you tomorrow. Now, if you say that. You must get back to them tomorrow, otherwise it's a breach of trust. And remember, we're trying to be askable adults, the people they trust the most to come to them with their worst and best questions and worries. So that's really important. So you, in rugby language, you kick for touch. You tell them you come back tomorrow, you run around and find your most trusted sex educator, or you go to your therapist or ask your best friend who seems to know how to do all these things. And then you go back to your kid the next day.Laura:  Yeah. I did not understand the rugby reference, but everything else you said sounded really good.Sarah: Kicking for touch means, like, you take the ball and you kick it as far down the pitch as you can, hoping that it will bounce in exactly the right way that you can run down and start from that point. Right. Laura: Got it. Okay, I'm with you. Alright, another quick question, just in general: smashing gender stereotypes for a three year old who has turned out like a princess. They love glitter, and dresses, and pink, and does not enjoy wearing pants, despite the parents best efforts to show her a variety of gender roles. And then the same person kind of asked a follow up question, which is, is it okay to just…let her be tacky and think she's a Disney princess, even if I wish it was different.So yeah, questions about gender roles and offering a variety of, not even offering a variety, but challenging gender stereotypes. Sarah: So I'll answer the second part of that question first. It is absolutely okay to allow your three year old to be as tacky and as pink or as glittery as they want. Absolutely.And that goes for a child of any gender. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also say that for some of us, there is a desire, I suppose, to fix everything that's wrong with the world through a small person who's growing up. And really they're one human. Yeah, and they're themselves and they're an individual. And I remember thinking a lot about this when my daughter was, I can't remember what she was, we started to get into YouTube videos about makeup and she loved makeup and I really had to do a lot of soul searching and personal sort of, like, care because I really wanted to fix the whole of the patriarchy when it came to like appearance and that whole makeup culture and everything. But I realized that no, no, that's not my job. And it's definitely not my 11 year old, 10 year old's job. My job is to love her and support her and help her feel like she is the best thing since sliced bread. Even if she is…has interests along sort of gender stereotype lines. And yeah, so remembering that in the moment when we're thinking of, Oh, we want to sort of fix the gender stereotypes and all that stuff. That really our child's body is not the place in which to do that. If you have a desire to create some sort of change, find somewhere else to do it.And look, the person who's asking these questions has already done a really great job of providing diversity and opportunity to see different things in their home. And so, you know, you've done what you can do and you continue to look at yourself and notice, okay, where are some of the ways that I might unthinkingly be following stereotypical lines and maybe then volunteer for some organisation or donate money somewhere else who's doing work related to gender and get on loving your kid and doing all the sparkly, tulle, pink, whatever it is. Unicorns. Yeah. Laura: Yeah. I think that's such a helpful reminder is that, you know, kids are not our like personal projects for righting everything that is wrong in the world and that there are other ways that we can create opportunities for them, show that we will be loving, accepting no matter what they decide they want to be when they grow up or how they want to express themselves or, you know, who they want to be in relationships with or any of that stuff that we can. There…you know, it doesn't have to be this either/or binary because so much of what is problematic about systems in the world is that they're binary, right?And so we…I suppose one thing that we can do is work to not replicate binaries in our, in our own home and in our parenting. And I have a little curveball question for you that I wanted to ask, which is kind of related to, something else we talked about at the very beginning around people feeling entitled to kids' bodies, and I promise I didn't just get you on the podcast to answer my own parenting shit, but I was curious to hear if you had or how you might approach this or if you had any thoughts on this. Something that we come up against quite a lot is people really feeling entitled to explanations from my three year old. You know, that thing, which again can be like very well connected, meaning and people want to connect with him by asking, you know, what's your name? What's your age? But then they always ask, are you a boy or a girl?And It just feels so invasive and I can tell that he feels invaded because he kind of like, you know, curls into me, and it's one of those things where I just want to say. There is no such thing as a girl or a boy. What are you talking about? Like, and just launch into this whole diatribe about gender roles and, and things, but it, you know, the corner shop is not the place to do that.So I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on how you can kind of say to your child, like, it wasn't okay that they asked you that question. And, you know, I could tell that you were uncomfortable with that question while also maybe kind of like deflecting that question, does that make sense what I'm asking?Sarah: In a sense, you've partially answered it already because what you said there about saying to your kid afterwards, that question was, I could see it made you uncomfortable. What you're doing is you're, you're reflecting back their experience of it and reinforcing that that was a valid response, right?And so you're really sort of saying that made sense to me that you felt like that, that felt a bit weird. And you could even be more sort of broad and say, you know, some people ask questions that don't feel comfortable or feel a bit unkind or feel a bit rough. Whatever is the natural language that your, your kid would resonate with.But the other thing would be to – and you may already do this – is in the moment when it's happening and the person in the shop has asked that question, you can see your kid's body language doing what it's doing. You could simply say, Oh, I noticed that that question, it feels, it feels uncomfortable. So how about we talk about what we're buying in the shop, or did you know that apples is our favorite fruit? This is a personal choice. Actually. Some people would choose to deflect in a way that's very sort of gentle and easy going, because in the presence of a child, they're not interested in raising the conflict, elevating the energy. So do that way. Some people are more comfortable saying simply, you know, we don't really talk about gender in our house. We're much more interested in… whatever it is. So like it's finding the balance that feels right to you in being able to redirect…or I had one person just simply ignored questions they thought was stupid, they just like blanked them and went, okay, good to see you and off they went or, okay, we're going off to get the milk now. And just like, just pretended that it hadn't even happened, you know. It's different for everyone. There will be, and I'll speak to this too, there will be some people that don't have the personal capacity to manage any of the options that we've just mentioned here. You know, and there's someone in my community who something similar happened, they were in the park and a dear family friend, I think was about 50, saw them after, it might've been after COVID. So it'd been a few years and, her daughter was probably about 10 and he sort of, he moved in or something and she could see her daughter's whole body. So like, like shrink like this, but in the moment, yeah. Did not have the capacity. Like didn't see it coming. Hadn't thought about any of this stuff before. And so the interaction happened, he left and she hadn't been able to do anything about it, which makes complete sense because there are many of us, we go into a trauma response that reflects what's happened to us in our past, where we also were mute or I didn't have power to, to sort of do anything about that.So also, I suppose, a recognition of that. We all have different capacity when it comes to a situation like this and to reiterate and go back to that thing again about self compassion, whatever you have capacity to do in that moment is exactly right. It is not possible to achieve something if you don't have the underlying ability or experience or knowledge to do that.And so there's no shame, there's no blaming about that. It purely gives you an opportunity to notice. And then maybe at some point you'll have the ability to reach out for help. And for some of us, we don't have the ability to reach out for help for 5 years, 10 years. Some of us never in our life because we don't have the economic advantage or the educational support to do so.So it's just a small reminder that we all start in this area at completely different places on this spectrum of ability. And it doesn't mean you're bad or wrong. It simply means you are who you are with the life that you had. Laura: Sarah, I just want to – before we do our snacks – I just wanted to say, I felt myself get emotional at what you were saying there because it's just…the work that you're doing is so important and I know makes such a difference to the families that you help and I know you put a ton of like free resources and content out there.So I'm just really grateful to all the work that you're doing and yeah, just shining a light on these really difficult, challenging conversations in a way that is so compassionate and so just nuanced and thoughtful and yeah, I just know that you're making a big difference for a ton of people, so I wanted to say thank you.And I want to know what your snack is! At the end of every episode, my guest and I share something they've been snacking on. It can be a show, a podcast, a book, you know, like a literal snack, whatever it is that you've been really into lately. So what have you got for us? Sarah:  Yeah, well, this is actually something quite personal because, you know, I mentioned about being autistic.And that diagnosis came very late in life for me, only last year. So the thing I'm snacking on is noticing when it's possible to truly be myself, as opposed to do something that I've learned to do to make everyone else feel comfortable, you know, and that can be something as simple as, well, this isn't simple. Actually, this is quite challenging for me. I was at a, like a week long training for…a therapy training that I'm doing the other week. And instead of sitting on the chair, I sat on the floor because that's where my body felt the most comfortable. So, and it felt so damn good, you know, like it didn't feel just good to sit on the floor. It felt good to honour who I was. And so in an ideal world, I guess, honouring who I am wouldn't be a snack, but because this is a work in progress. It absolutely is a snack right now, and I'm grateful for it. Laura: Oh, I love that. And a lot of people who are part of the Can I Have Another Snack? community are neurodivergent, and I'm sure will really resonate with that experience of, yeah, unmasking and feeling like really comfortable doing that and how, yeah, just affirming that feels. So yeah, thank you for, for sharing that. Oh, my thing is just going to sound really trite compared to that, but my thing is a show, it's called Deadloch. Have you seen it?Sarah: Is that the Australian show? Oh, it's so good. Laura: Yeah. So, okay. So I'm excited to be able to talk to someone about it because I feel like not a lot of people have come across it.Uh, so it's set in Tasmania. It's all I can describe it as…is like a lesbian detective show. Sarah: That's about it. And like, it's so quirky, isn't it? Like it's just so random and weird and sometimes dark and sometimes hilarious. And it's sort of like, it's, it's wild. I'm so glad you love that. Laura: It is wild. And so there's, there's only one season, which is really disappointing, but it…each episode is an hour, so I feel like it's enough that you can, like, get stuck in. And I am someone who, like, my nervous system cannot handle a lot of stress, anxiety in the shows that I watch, I need to, like, be able to decompress. I do want to say that...it is a murder mystery, like it does ramp up in terms of the suspense across the season I want to say, but there's enough dark humour and comedy and, like, a lot of swearing and ridiculousness that it kind of like tempers it out and yeah, so it's really good. I highly recommend it. Sarah: It's amazing. Can I just say, from the perspective of sensitive conversations to the writers of that show, they had to write a rationale for why the word cunt should be in the script because it's used prolifically. For anyone who doesn't know, in Australian colloquial swearing language, cunt is used for lots of different things and it's important it was in there, culturally. It was super important. So I just loved that. And the other thing I loved was that – this isn't a spoiler – the victims of the crimes are not the gender you think, like you naturally assume them to be based on a lot of other like TV crime you would see.So there's some things that comes out and it just sort of skews your expectation based on what the culture has given you, that invisible influence of normal in crime shows, you know? Laura: There is a lot of cultural stuff that is a kind of cultural critique, I suppose, that around gender, around racism, there's a lot of stuff that it touches on, but there is prolific use of the C word.But it, it's just like the way that it is thrown in, it's just very well done. The whole thing is very well done. So highly recommend. Sarah: And can I just say one thing, because you said “the C word” and I think it's important. Because when I was about 28, I was able to reclaim the word cunt because I was in a relationship with an artist at that point and a poet.And he said to me, because I was like, Ooh, that's a yuck word, he said, did you know like, it comes from the old…Old English or Old Norse or something, something of like, when you're ploughing that there's like, the plough leaves a cunt behind in the soil. And I was sort of like, oh, that actually sort of made me feel like, well, that's sort of nice. Like it's a similar sort of look. And for some reason, it just made me feel like I think I could reclaim that word. Not that other people can't, but from that time on, I was like, yeah, okay, that word and I, we can coexist with relative equanimity. Laura: Do you know what? I don't even know why I censored myself because I say cunt all the time.You're a cunt, you're a cunt, they're a cunt. But I understand that maybe not everybody is as comfortable with that word.Sarah, before I let you go, can you let everybody know where they can find you and learn more about your work? Sarah: Sure. Well, my Instagram is @IAmSarahSproule. And at the moment in the season that I'm in, which is really about unmasking and making sure I rest as much as I can. There's not a lot of new things out there, but there is about three years worth of very detailed content there about how to talk to kids about all sorts of things that all different ages, and it's well worth trawling back through there and, getting your fill of support. So that's where the main place you can find me. Laura: Yeah, I will link to all of that in the show notes and there's some great farting content on there as well, which I really appreciate and enjoy. Sarah, it's been such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for sharing everything with us. I know we could have gone on for like another 90 minutes, but I will wrap up there and let you go. Thanks so much, Sarah.OUTROThanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today.  Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening. ICYMI this week: Let's Talk All Things Neurodiversity and Food* How are you flipping gender scripts for your kids?* Nourishing Full Bodied Awareness with Hillary McBride* Let's Talk About Snacks, Baby This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

“We are batteries made out of water charged by sunlight,” explains Quantum Health Clinician and Educator, Laura Kissmann. Without exposure to natural light, the circadian rhythm that controls all the biological processes in the body will become misaligned. Although Laura now spends her time performing energy healing through quantum health practices such as red light therapy and access bars, she did not start out this way. Laura spent decades serving in the Canadian military as well as four years in an underground bunker surrounded by EMF while working for NORAD. In this episode, Laura shares her career and health history for a side by side analysis of what her environmental conditions were at the time each of her symptoms developed.  Environmental conditions that are out of alignment with the body's biological needs are at the root of all disease. Although it would be decades before Laura understood the connection between her environment and her numerous physical symptoms, she began to put the pieces together much earlier that something about her lifestyle was negatively impacting her health. When Laura began her military career, she was a young, healthy athlete. Then came decades of being forced to wear shoes that caused her to develop plantar fasciitis, followed by spending twelve hours per day in an underground bunker under fluorescent lighting, surrounded by EMF signals. After the birth of her first child, Laura was sicker than ever, experiencing symptoms that turned out to be hyperthyroidism, leaky gut, intestinal parasites, and chemical sensitivity.  Looking back through Laura's health history alongside her environmental conditions gives valuable insight into how circadian dysfunction caused her health to decline. When you take the time to analyze your physical and mental health symptoms through the lens of quantum biology, the immense impact of your environment on your health will become more and more clear. Be your own quantum health detective and see where your own environment may be misaligned with your body's natural biology.  Quotes “Sometimes people can't fully get well, if they don't address the traumas, the mental emotional stuff.” (3:13-3:21 | Laura) “With Access Bars, at worst, it's a relaxing massage, and at best it changes your whole life.” (9:27-9:33 | Laura) “The environment that we put our body in and the type of exposure that our body receives in that environment is the absolute most critical thing.” (35:58-36:07 | Meredith) “Circadian rhythm controls every process in the body, and circadian rhythm is controlled by natural light.” (44:02-44:08 | Meredith) “You want to be synced with the sun. If you're not synced with the sun, it's going to lead to disease in the body.” (58:22-58:30 | Laura) “You can become diabetic from blue light.” (1:01:23-1:01:25 | Laura)   Links Connect with Laura Kissmann: Website: https://laurakissmannwellness.com/ Instagram: @lkwellness To find a practitioner who understand the health principles of quantum biology: www.quantumbiologycollective.org  To become a QBC member and get invites to live deep dives & access to our video library: www.quantumhealthtv.com  To take our 8 week practitioner certification in the science of quantum biology so that you can add it to your existing area of expertise: www.appliedquantumbiology.com    Follow on Twitter, Instagram & Facebook: @quantumhealthtv    Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

:: If you're enjoying this podcast please give us an honest review! It helps so much! xo, Laura :: You might think that you want a fast metabolism, but that's not exactly the case. We want our metabolism to be FLEXIBLE so it can easily move through periods of fat loss, maintenance, and muscle building with fluidity, without becoming resistant or "slow". If you're like the women I work with every day, you may unknowingly hurt your metabolism by doing these common diet mistakes but luckily there's a way to help your metabolism "heal" and start burning fat more efficiently. Listen to the end for a simple and time-saving solution. Resources WAITLIST OPEN: The Cravings Code Feb 2024: Reduce cravings & overeating by up to 70% & prime your mindset & metabolism to naturally eat fewer calories & sustainably lose weight. The Cravings CLEANUP 7-Day FREE Challenge Timestamps (00:00:53) - Intro to 3 things than can impact your metabolism (00:01:43) - Metabolism: what it is and how it works (00:04:16) - #1 Skipping meals (00:07:35) - #2 Caffeine and alcohol (00:10:25) - #3 Giving into every sweet, salty, carby, savory craving (00:12:12) - How to BOOST your metabolism (00:13:13) - #CravingsCLEANUP Challenge! Connect with me! Instagram:@lauracavallo__cravings_coach Facebook: @LauraCavalloCoaching888 TikTok: @lauracavallo_coaching Website: www.lauracavallocoaching.com

Today's conversation with Laura Hatley about using business as a form of activism fits under the P of Partnership. Laura Hartley is an activist, writer and founder of Public LovEd (pronounced Public Love Ed), an online school empowering changemakers & forward-thinking entrepreneurs to radically reimagine the world, creating the conditions for social healing and collective thriving. Laura's work centres around the three areas of transforming self, business and changemaking. She runs programs on healing burnout culture, business beyond capitalism & the inner work of dismantling capitalism and supremacy culture. Laura lives and works on Gadigal land in Sydney, Australia but can frequently be found travelling the world. In this episode, you'll learn about business as a form of activism as well as... The problem with capitalism If not this, then what? How can this new form of business look like? Laura's framework, The Business of Revolution Why business is political The difference between human-centered and life-centered How to approach the transition out of capitalism The importance of the inner work And so much more Laura's Resources Laura's Website The Public Love Project Podcast Download a free guide to Business Beyond Capitalism Connect with Laura on: LinkedIn Facebook Instagram Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] Hi, Laura. It's so good to speak to you today. I'm so excited for our conversation. Laura: Oh, thank you. So am I, I'm so excited to be here, so thank you for having me on the show. Sarah: Yeah, thanks. It's, it's good. We've had a couple of exchanges already, first on LinkedIn where we met, and then I attended your workshop, and then we're like, Oh, we gotta talk about this more. So now you're here and yeah, super excited to talk about business as a form of activism. [00:05:00] So as you know, Kind of organizing the conversations on this podcast around the seven Ps of humane marketing. And I was thinking, well, where does does fit? And to me it really kind of fit under the p for partnership. , in a way we're almost like partnering with activism. We're also partnering, you know, with our clients, but. In a bigger way, we're partnering kind of with our future and, you know, the future paradigm of business. So that's where I felt like it fits best. What do you think about that? Pick? How, how does that sound? Laura: I actually think it's perfect. You know, it is, It's partnering with our future. It's partnering with life, with a different world, with the vision that we want to see born. So I think partnership was the perfect p to put this. Sarah: Nice. Great. All right, so, we're talking about business as activism. I know, you also talk a lot about, you know, the, postcapitalism world, right? Like that's, that's really what [00:06:00] we're. Talking about here is like, there's something wrong with the way we do business now. And let's face it, the way we do business now is after, is according to this model of capitalism. And, and I just kind of touch upon it in, in my, marketing, like we're human book. I don't go too much into it, but I would love for you, because you talk about this a lot, I would love for you to kind of tell us, well, you know, capitalism maybe served us for a certain amount of time. Now there's definitely something probably wrong with that model, so take us through that. What's broken with capitalism the way we, , use it now. Laura: Oh gosh. I mean so many things, but I think to start, you know, this answer, it's really I wanna establish a business and capitalism and not the same thing. They're actually two very different things. You know, business is just a form of trade of goods or services, and it's existed for. Thousands of years, right? [00:07:00] It predated capitalism and it will exist after capitalism as well. So business itself is a bit different. Capitalism is the way that we organize wealth and commerce and you know, we tend to think that it's the, just the way the world works or it's the best system we've come up with. But capitalism's only about 500 years. And there are kind of three fundamental problems with capitalism. One is it's based on the pursuit of infinite growth on a finite planet. It's why it is the leading driver of the climate crisis. It's why we have this problem with extractivism with biodiversity loss. The second is the artificial production of scarcity. So capitalism is reliant on scarcity. It is scarcity that drives the growth. And you see that scarcity in a lot of different ways. You see it in marketing, You see it in planned obsolescence where we design products not to last. They're deliberately designed to die in order for us to buy more, and therefore we need to extract more, to have [00:08:00] more. And of course the third problem is the devaluation of complex living systems to lifeless resources. You know, forests, oceans, these beautiful, incredible natural world that we live in. Only has value when we can extract something from it. Mm-hmm. , even if that is tourism, it's still a way that humans can use it and therefore it has value as opposed to having an intrinsic right to have value in and of itself. So these three kind of principles of pursuit of infinite growth, you know, this artificial requirement and production of scar. You know, we're not talking real scarcity here. We're saying scarcity is embedded into the system in order for it to perpetuate. And the devaluation of complex living systems, the devaluation of our living world, is really what leads us to the crises that we see today. So what leads to the climate crisis? The loss of wildlife that we face, and in other forms as well, it perpetuates racial injustice and it perpetuates increasing wealth inequity. [00:09:00] Hmm. So capitalism. Has served us to a point, but we really need to look to go beyond it if we want to create a more beautiful world and if we wanna solve some of the challenges that we're facing as a speciess. Sarah: Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. There's so much in here. sounds like, okay, 1, 2, 3, but. Yeah, there is a lot, , in here that obviously, like you say, 500 years ago, those didn't seem like problems, right? We had no idea that eventually this growth, , oriented attitude would lead to certain problems. We were just like, Yeah. Oblivious to what was coming. But I would say probably even 50 years ago now, we were already, or at least a scientific, , kind of people, they were seeing that, okay, that this is gonna end so, , and, and yet not much was done. But as a marketer and as a kind of marketing [00:10:00] oriented podcast, obviously what really, , speaks to me and, and you know, that, that we have so much things that are aligned There is the second one, The scarcity cuz , yeah, that's, that's the one where, you know, I was also seeing, oh my God, there's something just so wrong with marketing and already we were starting to talk about using business for good and yet, , We didn't look at the marketing piece, that if we do business for good, we can't also still use, , you know, the marketing with the scarcity approach. We still, we also need to change that conversation. So, , yeah, for, for me, , when I started looking at, you know, a marketing revolution, it really, this word, , Anxiety came up so many times in the conversations that people felt marketing gave them anxiety or being the marketer gave them anxiety and, and I believe it had to do with the scarcity, right? Feeling that we are living in scarcity gives us anxiety. Would you agree to that? [00:11:00] Laura: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that's kind of the point of it. Mm-hmm. Is, you know, when we sell from scarcity is we're actually activating a person's flight or freeze response. Yeah. You know, that kind of panic decision to go, Oh my gosh, there's something wrong. I need to make a decision. If I don't take it like right now, I'm gonna miss out. And then if I miss out, What's gonna happen? You know, we, we insinuate these feelings like, You won't belong, you won't fit in. This is a one time offer. You won't be able to build your business as much. You're not gonna be able to enjoy this product. You won't be as cool, whatever it will be. You know, there are intended consequences that. We don't explicitly say, but are kind of underlying that scarcity tactic. Mm. And so whether it is simply countdown timers or you know, this real like by now there's only two seats left type thing, you know, this artificial and very often, , completely false scarcity that we could try to sell. Is creating this [00:12:00] constant stress and survival response within us. Mm. And of course, if we're then taking that into actually wanting a more beautiful world, none of us are making our best decisions when we're stressed. No. Like when we're in this state of being panicked and anxious. Yeah, we're making poor decisions from that Sarah: place. Yeah. Because we, we feel like we can't have the energy to look out for future generations or, or even just, you know, other people. We just feel like, Oh, there's not enough for ourselves. So first we need to feel safe ourselves, which is normal. I like totally understandable as well. But like you say, some of the scarcity is actually. Created. It's false. And if we do not always think, Oh, I have to get more and more and more, and kind of live outside of our maybe, comfort zone or, or, you know, realistic, , living what we actually need, then, then yeah, we're in this cons, constant tussle. Oh yeah. So [00:13:00] much. , agree with what you said. Okay. So we know that this is the state of things right now, so I'm curious to hear how you envision a new type of business. So the postcapitalism business, how does that look like? Paint the picture for us. Laura: You know, I think the beauty of post-capitalism is that it's not actually born yet. We're kind of co-creating it together. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So when people talk about going beyond capitalism, I wanna establish first as well, most people automatically talk about conscious capitalism as the alternative. Mm-hmm. and conscious capitalism. Obviously we had the kind of triple bottom line of like people, planet profit, and it seems like a great alternative to capitalism, but conscious capital. Has kind of added in some values. It's added in like some justice, like we need to care about people, we need to care about the earth. But it hasn't really dealt with the actual issue of looking for infinite growth [00:14:00] and it hasn't dealt with the issue of, , embedded scarcity within the system. It's perhaps dealt with the third issue. It's actually given some value to living systems. So, but it hasn't dealt with the other. Right. So when we're looking to go into post-capitalism, we're looking to kind of create an all new system together, you know, and this is something that's going to arise out of this time. Now, as entrepreneurs, this can mean a lot of different things for us, but really I think it's coming back to the values. Of our business and how we want to embody those values in every area, in our operations, in our marketing, in our sales, in our strategy, and to really bring them to life. So, you know, the first thing that I've mentioned here is this need for infinite growth that we see on the collective scale. And most of us have internalized this as well, to a degree, the sense that there's never enough. There's never enough time [00:15:00] that I'm never good enough that we end up internalizing perfectionism in the same way that, you know, I'm not quite there yet. It needs to be a little bit better. Where the sense that my business needs to grow faster, it needs to grow bigger. You know, I haven't got enough clients yet, and what we lost in this is this ability to know what it feels like to be satisfied, you know, to feel satiated, to feel enough. Right. And so when I'm looking at post capitalist business, it's not saying that growth doesn't have a place, It's not saying that we should all be struggling, that we shouldn't be earning money cause we should, you know, we need to support ourselves. We deserve to live flourishing, abundant lives. But it also means understanding what this feeling of enoughness is. Like, what actually feels good to us? What is the actual vision of the business that we want? And then how do we start to look at some of these other principles like abundance, like justice, like regeneration, and embedding them into all that we do. Sarah: I think once you [00:16:00] feel that you are enough and you have enough, then you actually get time to look at the other stuff, right? Which you can't, , if you're still struggling with de gotta get more clients and gotta grow and gotta scale and whatnot, then you just, your focus is not on, the other two things. I talk about. You are enough also in the marketing, like we're human bug. And it's, it starts in a way with the definition of success. I think that's where a big, problem lies as well, is like, how do we define success? Because if we never take the time to define it for ourselves, we're chasing after everybody else's definition of success, which, you know, is what we are fed. That it's always more and more and more. , so it sounds to me like. This new business, , as entrepreneurs, especially cuz that's who we we're talking to here is really starting with the, the inner work and starting there rather than always, you know, starting with [00:17:00] the business and who I am as the business owner. Uh, Do I hear that right? Yeah. Laura: Absolutely. I mean, oh, there's so many places I could go with this, but certainly in terms of success, you know, culturally we have such a narrow definition of success. Like we generally define success as more or growth, and certainly we define it in terms of money. Right. But you know, and this isn't to say that money doesn't make us happy because actually a certain level does. Right. , but we can have a much wider definition of success, right? So I remember. I was really fortunate a number of years ago to visit Bhutan, this tiny country between India and China that's famous for its development philosophy called Gross National Happiness. And you know, they measure the overall happiness of the nation as their primary determinant of success or wellbeing as opposed to countries like Australia where we primarily, , measure and value gdp, right? Or gross domestic product. And you know what I loved about [00:18:00] their model? Was, there were so many, layers and complexities to it, but also so many ideas which we could actually transfer into business. Mm-hmm. into redefining success for us entrepreneurs. You know, let's take time. Use as an example. You know, are we just using our days to fill the nine to five or you know, eight to six much more often or even longer, Or are we doing it to break free? You know, are we still feeling or experiencing that sense of time? Scar. Can we measure success through our health, You know, and how stressed we are, or how relaxed we are, or how relaxed our consumers or customers are when they interact with us, right? You know, we could also look at our working environment, how it makes us feel, or our contribution to the planet and the world around us. So really. Taking the time as an entrepreneur, I think to redefine what success actually means to us and to give it a much more holistic picture. Mm-hmm. of things that actually contribute to our wellbeing is really important. [00:19:00] Yeah. And then of course this inner work comes with that. You can't redefine success and actually understand what it means to you unless you're able to kind of stop and be with yourself for a moment and understand what is most important to you. Sarah: Yeah. And you brought up something that really was also a big aha in my, Personal development journey is this correlation between time and money. You know, you feel like, okay, finally you've dealt with your money story and you kind of detached yourself from this, tight hold on, on the money stuff. And then you realize, Hold on a minute, , I have the same kind of scarcity approach to time as I did to money. Because obviously also there's the saying time is money and all of that, right? and so, I feel like the new business paradigm also values time much more than or to an equal amount, at least as money. and really looking at how do we want to spend our time? And I, we [00:20:00] see that already post pandemic, right? People are like, Well, I don't want to commute two hours anymore. I'd rather spend that time with my family. So time has really gotten a new, Yeah, a new weight in terms of the values that , we, you know, prioritize. So I think this idea of figuring out how do you approach time? Are you still always hustling? and usually yeah, it's linked to money because you wanna. Use your time more efficiently in order to make more money. Right. It's just, Laura: it's crazy. It's linked to money, but it's also something that I think that I refer to as internalized capitalism. You know, internalized capitalism is the equation of our worth with our productivity, with what we produce. So it's not just about getting more money, it's, it's when we feel guilty, when we. Yeah. It's when we go into work, even when we're sick. Yeah. It's that sense of, you know, we've got a lot to power through in this meeting. We're just gonna squeeze a little bit more in mm-hmm. , [00:21:00] or, you know, I'm gonna like make this phone call while I'm on my run, while I'm like cooking dinner in the microwave or whatever it is. This feeling that there's just not enough time. Mm-hmm. , and it's partly because, you know, We have internalized the cultural systems around us to such a degree that says if I'm not doing enough, if I am not maximizing my time, if I'm not making every ounce of this, you know, which is scarce because everything is scarce. Then I'm not worthy. Right. Then I'm not good enough. Yeah. And so there's a lot of that kind of steeped into it as well. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So good. , let's talk about the transition because you know, as people are listening, they're, they're like, Yeah, that sounds great. You know, Yes, I wanna be feeling more, , at ease and relaxed about my business. And, but how do I make the transition and. I just feel like I'm not there yet, but I'm definitely on a good pass. I feel like , I, you know, I block time now [00:22:00] for, , walks outside, like every day I have an hour, , going for walks either with a dog or with friends. I make that my priority before any kind of business stuff. And, and I do my yoga, so things that matter to me and that I know they're, , Things that matter, , you know, 10 years from now. So it's, it's kind of this longer vision rather than just, you know, what do I do today in order to make my business grow? So, , and yet I do have that, I feel like this internalized capitalism because as a Gen Xer, That's just how we grew up with, right, How we grew up. It's like all these things that we hear in our head and it feels, it feels very challenging to want to do things differently when. Every where you look, people are still talking. You know, the old talk about scaling and hustling and you know, maybe, maybe in the corporate [00:23:00] world there's a bit less of that because you still get paid if you don't, you know, if you don't commute or whatever. But has entrepreneurs, Well, it's still about, you know, how do I make a living and how do I make enough so I feel like. It would be interesting for you, you to share also, how do you take care of yourself while going through this transition knowing that we're not there yet, and so you are probably gonna be one of the few who thinks like that. I think that's the point I'm trying to make because believe me, I feel alone a lot of times when I feel like my week is really easy and I don't. You know, a lot of work and I give myself time to grow the circle, for example, and I feel. Am I doing this right? You know, who, who, who else is out there? Who does it like, like I wanna do it. Laura: Oh, you know, I so get that , few weeks ago, I think I decided to kind of just take a step back from launching anything. I was a bit [00:24:00] overwhelmed. I had a lot happening in my personal life. I wasn't ready with the materials like I wanted to be. And I'll say, Okay, no, like just pause. Take the time. You know, I'm very privileged and fortunate that I was in a position that I didn't have to make money right then and there. You know, that may have been a different story, right? But of course then in taking this time, then this is Pushful of, am I doing enough? You know, am I doing this the way that I should? Because like everything out there says that I need to be doing this now. Mm-hmm. , you know, but there's a part of me that's going, No, it's actually. Everything has a season, everything has a time. And to trust that, Yeah, So there is so many different practices I think in, in taking care of ourselves throughout this, but for me, I think it's about returning back to my body, to what it's really feeling, what it's offering, what its energy level is. Because so often, We override our body. You know, when our body needs rest or it needs pleasure, or it [00:25:00] needs stimulation, or whatever it is. And we go, No, I've gotta work. No, I've gotta do this. I've gotta send this email, I've gotta launch this course. I've gotta put this out into the world. And when we do this, when we override our body enough, when we're so disconnected from it, then we really lead to a state of burnout very easily. Mm-hmm. . So coming back to. What am I really feeling? What is true for me in this moment? And then what do I ac? What are my desires right now? What am I callings right now? And so, yes, I need discipline. Yes, I need structure. These are important things that every entrepreneur needs, but also a little bit of trust of ourselves and trust that there is a. And if it is not the time now, that it will be the time at some point that you need to be ready for that. Right. And you need to trust that you'll know when it is. Mm-hmm. . Sarah: Yeah. It really sounds like, , this balance between the being and the doing that I talk a lot about on the podcast, you know, this yin and yang, all of this, and. And if you are [00:26:00] struggling in your mind, which we often do when we're thinking about growth and those things, then it's time to come back to the yin, which in what you said is the body, and you know, just the energy and, and give the mind and break and say, Yeah, I know you want to, you know, grow or whatever, but right now we need to focus on on other things. Yeah. This is so good. Laura: Yeah. I wish there was some nice easy answer for so much of this. Like, you know, you just like, tick this box or like, you know, you take this pill or press X button, whatever it is. Like it doesn't exist. It is this nuanced kind of place between the being and the doing that is like the perfect description. Sarah: Yeah. Do you feel like though, I mean you already are younger than I am, and do you feel like the new generations. It will come easier for them because maybe already they see more people doing it in a different way. Laura: [00:27:00] I want to say yes. , yes and no. I think it really depends on, The environment in which you have for young people been raised in and what they're coming out of. Mm-hmm. , You know, I think for the younger generations there is already an inherent distrust of the system and a desire to do things differently, and I think that is really powerful. And then it will be how, and I know some amazing young people who are already doing this, but how they choose to challenge those systems, right? It's very easy still to kind of fall into. A, or resistance to systems, or as opposed to, Okay, let's actually build something new. Right? And so my hope for the generation younger than me and also for my own, is that we continue to build something new that we do both. That's a place for resistance, and there is a place for trialing and prototyping and experimenting with a new way to do business and a new form of entrepre. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a good segue into your business of Rev [00:28:00] Revolution. So I talk about the Humane marketing revolution. You talk about the revolution, , for business itself, and you have this framework also with the six leaves. Maybe just quickly, , cuz we don't have that much time left, but quickly give us the different leaves and then I wanna dive into the one about choosing life and human centered versus life centered. But give us the tour of the six pillars. Laura: Yeah. So I run a program called Business for the Revolution, and this is really. I hesitate to use the word anti-capitalist, but it's really about exploring what it is for entrepreneurs and solo entrepreneurs to explore business beyond capitalism using feminist principles and anti-oppressive principles. So there's six pillars upon which the work is based, which is really about using abundance over scarcity. So really looking at what it would mean to feel like there's enough. To know that there's enough and to really market and sell at the speed of trust and relationality. The [00:29:00] second is understanding that everything is relational. Everything is connected. You know, there's so many sayings like it's business not personal, and you know, the ends justify the means, or, you know, it's, it's not, it's not real. It's just what I do here, or leave your personal life at the door, whatever it might be. But recognizing that actually business is an extension of us. It is just another ways we're relating to one another. So understanding everything is relational and we need to come back to everything is connected. Now, the third that you mentioned is choose life. You know, in an age of ecological breakdown, which we are in, it is not enough to be sustainable, like sustainability is too often about maintaining the status quo. We need to be actively regenerating both the earth and our culture. So really exploring this idea of a regenerative culture. Right. The fourth principle is dream deeper. You know that we need to embed our vision, our values, and [00:30:00] our vocation. Those callings into everything that we do. We need to really reimagine the world and then reimagine how we want our business to serve a more beautiful world. So we're kind of widening the scope of what we're trying to picture. Fifth principle is that business is political. , for too long business has upheld and perpetuated, , racism, white supremacy, injustice. It still does, Capitalism does, and a lot of global business does where, where more disconnected from it than perhaps we used to be, but it still exists. So understanding that business is political and that we need to be conscious of how we're embed. Anti oppressive and feminist principles into what we do. Mm-hmm. . And the sixth and final principle is about wide streams of value. So Edward Abbey once said that growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. And you know, I love that because when you think about the natural world, the only thing that grows with [00:31:00] that end is cancer until it kills itself. Mm-hmm. . So what we. Looking defined with this principle is really redefining success away from growth. What are our wide streams of value over our tall mountains of growth? So these six principles are really about reimagining how we do business and how we want to show up in our business. It's about embedding these values into our strategy, into our operations, into our marketing, into our sales, into every aspect. So it's no longer about just what we sell or what we do or what we're offering to customers, but the way in which we run the business. Sarah: Mm. Yeah. I just love that so much, really, resonated with me. And on that workshop we, I was on, I was like, Yep. I gotta talk to you, Laura, and have her on my podcast and, and I learned a lot more having this conversation, so thank you so much. One of the concepts that I also kind of had a big aha around was this idea of [00:32:00] human centered versus life centered, right? , human centered is a term that. Myself and other people in business marketers, , have been using a lot, these past years. And it kind of almost got like, you know, like authentic. It became this buzzword. Oh, if you say human centered, then, then that means you're, you're getting it. And, and so when you, , said, Well, actually we need to extend it to life centered, it really kind of blew my mind a little bit. I. Wait a minute, I thought I'd been having it right. All this, all this time, and now here you are expanding my thinking and saying, Yeah, human centered is good, but let's extend it to life. So maybe just talk to us a little bit about the difference in what life centered really means and how, how that looks like in, in the marketing world, for example. Laura: So for me with this point, I think I was speaking about, you know, when we're [00:33:00] talking about the ideology of how capitalism shows up in business, is that it's very human and and human centered. And when we're looking to go beyond capitalism, what would look different? And we're like, well, actually it would just be life centered. And really what this was about was breaking down the binary that there is a difference between humans and the planet or humans in the natural world. Mm-hmm. as if somehow what is good for humans might be good for the planet, it might not be. Or you know, what's good for the planet probably won't be good for humans and vice versa. They're not. We are of the natural world. We are the natural world. We are intrinsically linked. Right. When we're looking as well at these deeper mindsets that actually influence capitalism that have led to the climate crisis and some of the struggles that we are facing today. So much of that comes from a place of separation or a place of domination that humans are somehow separate from everything else and that humans are somehow. Better than or above. And you know this principle, [00:34:00] it's not about being all airy fairy and like, Oh, we need to just, you know, like save every dolphin. We should all be vegans, or whatever it is. It's really just about widening the sphere of value to go beyond the human and to look at the essence of life, you know, the essence of life that animates all living things on this planet and to understand. Where there might be value for that. Now you can apply this really looking at regenerative culture into our supply chains, you know, and what is happening at the ends of the supply chain that perhaps we don't see, you know, really examining every end in our marketing. I actually am very curious to hear from you, cause I think you are the expert here around what it might mean to have a life centered approach. Yeah. Sarah: Actually, I'd love to hear from you on that. Mm-hmm. . Yes. So to me, really. I think it, it's a, a different stage, , and maybe, you know, depends on where people [00:35:00] are in their journey. Coming to human centered is the first stage in some kind of development, right? Maybe they have been just. Focused on growth and numbers and scaling and money making. And so coming back to human centered, I feel like that's the first stage maybe in this personal development and kind of seeing the bigger picture. And yet, and once you, you know, got that and you're like, Yes, human connections are important, I think then you are ready to go to the next stage and say, We might have a very limited time here on Earth. It's not enough anymore to just talk about human connections. We really need to extend it. And to me, that brings in this idea of the triple bottom line and doing marketing in a way that involves, yes, our human relations, but then also the win for the planet. And so really, using. [00:36:00] What I talk a lot about in humane marketing is our worldview in our marketing. And that worldview has to do not just with the humans making doing business, but also, , you know, what do we stand for, , in terms of our values and how do we plan to, save this planet somehow. So I feel like it's. a third stage of getting more connected and seeing business as having a role to play in the whole sustainability piece, Right? So, Laura: human flourishing is tied to ecological, flourishing, Right? You know, this idea that we can flourish when the earth is not, or that we can just go to another planet is, you know, It's not accurate. Yeah. It's part it. It will catch up with us. Yeah. And so it's really bringing it back to, Okay, well actually you're right. As business owners, I think we have a tremendous source of power. Even those of us who are solar printers, like you don't have major global [00:37:00] Fortune 500 companies. I don't think they can lead the way to change because they're too stuck in the old paradigm. Yeah. But when you're looking at small businesses and how we can pivot and how we can use our values and. And embed this idea of regeneration, of embedding life, giving principles into all that we do. So into physical products, into supply chains, into materials, but into our communities, into our cultures, into our interactions is so important. I love that definition and I agree it's this kind of next stage of looking at it beyond the human. Yeah. Sarah: The other thing that comes up for me is also what we previously discussed of, you know, seeing the new definition of business post-capitalism. , about something that is holistic and it includes our whole life , and how do we want to create this life, and make it life centered and not just maybe business centered or money centered. So to me [00:38:00] it's also this idea of life centered means we want to create a sustainable life for us ourselves without burnout. So beyond the sustainability piece, which is important. I also feel like life centered means well, let's create a life that we can sustain and, and that we enjoy living rather than, you know, going into that hustle mode and, and always making more and more and more. Laura: Yeah, I think it's about flourishing. Mm-hmm. , you know, it's about thriving. Yeah. And too often we don't think of that in our society or in business. You know, we kind of focus on like just getting by or like just being good enough, you know? You know, How are you? , Sarah: good. I'm busy. You know, Instead of Yeah. Laura: Yeah. But instead we could be flourishing. We could be thriving, and. Shouldn't we, You know, why not design our lives and design our business to promote human, our own and ecological [00:39:00] flourishing, You know, so they're all live around us. And this doesn't mean you need to be out there working with dolphins or whatever else. No. Yeah. But the essence of what you're doing is embodying the principle. Yeah. And that I think is where the change comes Sarah: from. Yeah. I. I'm so glad you brought up the, the busy answer cuz that's when I notice my internal capitalism every time somebody, you know tells me, Oh, I'm busy, I'm. I don't know. I'm not that busy , so am I doing something wrong that I'm not that busy, but I just, yeah. I'm not buying into the busy stuff anymore. I'm like, I don't wanna be busy. And even if I'm, you know, working on something that I wanna really get out, then I don't call it busy. I guess I just. College. Yeah. I'm working on something that gives me great joy. I just feel like busy now has a bad after paste Laura: Yeah. You know, this idea, we need to stop the glorification of busy. Yeah. Because again, but it's that link to the fact [00:40:00] that we're always, well, if we're busy, we're doing more, where we're keeping up, we're doing enough. Like, so that sense of scarcity underlying. Busy is really important to notice. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I know we could keep going and we're, we're having a real fun here, but, , I think we need to start wrapping it up, but this has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Please do share, with people where they can find out more about you, your work, your program. Laura: , yes. So you can go to my website. My school is called Public Love Enterprises. So Public Love Do Enterprises. You can find me on Instagram at Laura Do H dot Hartley. I'm also on LinkedIn and Facebook. So please check us out. Google. Laura Hartley, Public love, public love enterprises, and I look forward to, , Working with you further and getting to know your guests and thank you to everyone who is listening. Sarah: Yeah, thanks Laura. I have one last question. , what are you grateful for today or this week? What comes up? Laura: I'm grateful [00:41:00] for my partner. I have an incredibly supportive partner who always brings me back to myself when I start to go somewhere else. Nice. And so she's who I'm grateful for. Sarah: Nice. Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing and for being here. Thank you.[00:42:00]

Today's conversation with Laura Hatley about using business as a form of activism fits under the P of Partnership. Laura Hartley is an activist, writer and founder of Public LovEd (pronounced Public Love Ed), an online school empowering changemakers & forward-thinking entrepreneurs to radically reimagine the world, creating the conditions for social healing and collective thriving. Laura's work centres around the three areas of transforming self, business and changemaking. She runs programs on healing burnout culture, business beyond capitalism & the inner work of dismantling capitalism and supremacy culture. Laura lives and works on Gadigal land in Sydney, Australia but can frequently be found travelling the world. In this episode, you'll learn about business as a form of activism as well as... The problem with capitalism If not this, then what? How can this new form of business look like? Laura's framework, The Business of Revolution Why business is political The difference between human-centered and life-centered How to approach the transition out of capitalism The importance of the inner work And so much more Laura's Resources Laura's Website The Public Love Project Podcast Download a free guide to Business Beyond Capitalism Connect with Laura on: LinkedIn Facebook Instagram Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] Hi, Laura. It's so good to speak to you today. I'm so excited for our conversation. Laura: Oh, thank you. So am I, I'm so excited to be here, so thank you for having me on the show. Sarah: Yeah, thanks. It's, it's good. We've had a couple of exchanges already, first on LinkedIn where we met, and then I attended your workshop, and then we're like, Oh, we gotta talk about this more. So now you're here and yeah, super excited to talk about business as a form of activism. [00:05:00] So as you know, Kind of organizing the conversations on this podcast around the seven Ps of humane marketing. And I was thinking, well, where does does fit? And to me it really kind of fit under the p for partnership. , in a way we're almost like partnering with activism. We're also partnering, you know, with our clients, but. In a bigger way, we're partnering kind of with our future and, you know, the future paradigm of business. So that's where I felt like it fits best. What do you think about that? Pick? How, how does that sound? Laura: I actually think it's perfect. You know, it is, It's partnering with our future. It's partnering with life, with a different world, with the vision that we want to see born. So I think partnership was the perfect p to put this. Sarah: Nice. Great. All right, so, we're talking about business as activism. I know, you also talk a lot about, you know, the, postcapitalism world, right? Like that's, that's really what [00:06:00] we're. Talking about here is like, there's something wrong with the way we do business now. And let's face it, the way we do business now is after, is according to this model of capitalism. And, and I just kind of touch upon it in, in my, marketing, like we're human book. I don't go too much into it, but I would love for you, because you talk about this a lot, I would love for you to kind of tell us, well, you know, capitalism maybe served us for a certain amount of time. Now there's definitely something probably wrong with that model, so take us through that. What's broken with capitalism the way we, , use it now. Laura: Oh gosh. I mean so many things, but I think to start, you know, this answer, it's really I wanna establish a business and capitalism and not the same thing. They're actually two very different things. You know, business is just a form of trade of goods or services, and it's existed for. Thousands of years, right? [00:07:00] It predated capitalism and it will exist after capitalism as well. So business itself is a bit different. Capitalism is the way that we organize wealth and commerce and you know, we tend to think that it's the, just the way the world works or it's the best system we've come up with. But capitalism's only about 500 years. And there are kind of three fundamental problems with capitalism. One is it's based on the pursuit of infinite growth on a finite planet. It's why it is the leading driver of the climate crisis. It's why we have this problem with extractivism with biodiversity loss. The second is the artificial production of scarcity. So capitalism is reliant on scarcity. It is scarcity that drives the growth. And you see that scarcity in a lot of different ways. You see it in marketing, You see it in planned obsolescence where we design products not to last. They're deliberately designed to die in order for us to buy more, and therefore we need to extract more, to have [00:08:00] more. And of course the third problem is the devaluation of complex living systems to lifeless resources. You know, forests, oceans, these beautiful, incredible natural world that we live in. Only has value when we can extract something from it. Mm-hmm. , even if that is tourism, it's still a way that humans can use it and therefore it has value as opposed to having an intrinsic right to have value in and of itself. So these three kind of principles of pursuit of infinite growth, you know, this artificial requirement and production of scar. You know, we're not talking real scarcity here. We're saying scarcity is embedded into the system in order for it to perpetuate. And the devaluation of complex living systems, the devaluation of our living world, is really what leads us to the crises that we see today. So what leads to the climate crisis? The loss of wildlife that we face, and in other forms as well, it perpetuates racial injustice and it perpetuates increasing wealth inequity. [00:09:00] Hmm. So capitalism. Has served us to a point, but we really need to look to go beyond it if we want to create a more beautiful world and if we wanna solve some of the challenges that we're facing as a speciess. Sarah: Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. There's so much in here. sounds like, okay, 1, 2, 3, but. Yeah, there is a lot, , in here that obviously, like you say, 500 years ago, those didn't seem like problems, right? We had no idea that eventually this growth, , oriented attitude would lead to certain problems. We were just like, Yeah. Oblivious to what was coming. But I would say probably even 50 years ago now, we were already, or at least a scientific, , kind of people, they were seeing that, okay, that this is gonna end so, , and, and yet not much was done. But as a marketer and as a kind of marketing [00:10:00] oriented podcast, obviously what really, , speaks to me and, and you know, that, that we have so much things that are aligned There is the second one, The scarcity cuz , yeah, that's, that's the one where, you know, I was also seeing, oh my God, there's something just so wrong with marketing and already we were starting to talk about using business for good and yet, , We didn't look at the marketing piece, that if we do business for good, we can't also still use, , you know, the marketing with the scarcity approach. We still, we also need to change that conversation. So, , yeah, for, for me, , when I started looking at, you know, a marketing revolution, it really, this word, , Anxiety came up so many times in the conversations that people felt marketing gave them anxiety or being the marketer gave them anxiety and, and I believe it had to do with the scarcity, right? Feeling that we are living in scarcity gives us anxiety. Would you agree to that? [00:11:00] Laura: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that's kind of the point of it. Mm-hmm. Is, you know, when we sell from scarcity is we're actually activating a person's flight or freeze response. Yeah. You know, that kind of panic decision to go, Oh my gosh, there's something wrong. I need to make a decision. If I don't take it like right now, I'm gonna miss out. And then if I miss out, What's gonna happen? You know, we, we insinuate these feelings like, You won't belong, you won't fit in. This is a one time offer. You won't be able to build your business as much. You're not gonna be able to enjoy this product. You won't be as cool, whatever it will be. You know, there are intended consequences that. We don't explicitly say, but are kind of underlying that scarcity tactic. Mm. And so whether it is simply countdown timers or you know, this real like by now there's only two seats left type thing, you know, this artificial and very often, , completely false scarcity that we could try to sell. Is creating this [00:12:00] constant stress and survival response within us. Mm. And of course, if we're then taking that into actually wanting a more beautiful world, none of us are making our best decisions when we're stressed. No. Like when we're in this state of being panicked and anxious. Yeah, we're making poor decisions from that Sarah: place. Yeah. Because we, we feel like we can't have the energy to look out for future generations or, or even just, you know, other people. We just feel like, Oh, there's not enough for ourselves. So first we need to feel safe ourselves, which is normal. I like totally understandable as well. But like you say, some of the scarcity is actually. Created. It's false. And if we do not always think, Oh, I have to get more and more and more, and kind of live outside of our maybe, comfort zone or, or, you know, realistic, , living what we actually need, then, then yeah, we're in this cons, constant tussle. Oh yeah. So [00:13:00] much. , agree with what you said. Okay. So we know that this is the state of things right now, so I'm curious to hear how you envision a new type of business. So the postcapitalism business, how does that look like? Paint the picture for us. Laura: You know, I think the beauty of post-capitalism is that it's not actually born yet. We're kind of co-creating it together. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So when people talk about going beyond capitalism, I wanna establish first as well, most people automatically talk about conscious capitalism as the alternative. Mm-hmm. and conscious capitalism. Obviously we had the kind of triple bottom line of like people, planet profit, and it seems like a great alternative to capitalism, but conscious capital. Has kind of added in some values. It's added in like some justice, like we need to care about people, we need to care about the earth. But it hasn't really dealt with the actual issue of looking for infinite growth [00:14:00] and it hasn't dealt with the issue of, , embedded scarcity within the system. It's perhaps dealt with the third issue. It's actually given some value to living systems. So, but it hasn't dealt with the other. Right. So when we're looking to go into post-capitalism, we're looking to kind of create an all new system together, you know, and this is something that's going to arise out of this time. Now, as entrepreneurs, this can mean a lot of different things for us, but really I think it's coming back to the values. Of our business and how we want to embody those values in every area, in our operations, in our marketing, in our sales, in our strategy, and to really bring them to life. So, you know, the first thing that I've mentioned here is this need for infinite growth that we see on the collective scale. And most of us have internalized this as well, to a degree, the sense that there's never enough. There's never enough time [00:15:00] that I'm never good enough that we end up internalizing perfectionism in the same way that, you know, I'm not quite there yet. It needs to be a little bit better. Where the sense that my business needs to grow faster, it needs to grow bigger. You know, I haven't got enough clients yet, and what we lost in this is this ability to know what it feels like to be satisfied, you know, to feel satiated, to feel enough. Right. And so when I'm looking at post capitalist business, it's not saying that growth doesn't have a place, It's not saying that we should all be struggling, that we shouldn't be earning money cause we should, you know, we need to support ourselves. We deserve to live flourishing, abundant lives. But it also means understanding what this feeling of enoughness is. Like, what actually feels good to us? What is the actual vision of the business that we want? And then how do we start to look at some of these other principles like abundance, like justice, like regeneration, and embedding them into all that we do. Sarah: I think once you [00:16:00] feel that you are enough and you have enough, then you actually get time to look at the other stuff, right? Which you can't, , if you're still struggling with de gotta get more clients and gotta grow and gotta scale and whatnot, then you just, your focus is not on, the other two things. I talk about. You are enough also in the marketing, like we're human bug. And it's, it starts in a way with the definition of success. I think that's where a big, problem lies as well, is like, how do we define success? Because if we never take the time to define it for ourselves, we're chasing after everybody else's definition of success, which, you know, is what we are fed. That it's always more and more and more. , so it sounds to me like. This new business, , as entrepreneurs, especially cuz that's who we we're talking to here is really starting with the, the inner work and starting there rather than always, you know, starting with [00:17:00] the business and who I am as the business owner. Uh, Do I hear that right? Yeah. Laura: Absolutely. I mean, oh, there's so many places I could go with this, but certainly in terms of success, you know, culturally we have such a narrow definition of success. Like we generally define success as more or growth, and certainly we define it in terms of money. Right. But you know, and this isn't to say that money doesn't make us happy because actually a certain level does. Right. , but we can have a much wider definition of success, right? So I remember. I was really fortunate a number of years ago to visit Bhutan, this tiny country between India and China that's famous for its development philosophy called Gross National Happiness. And you know, they measure the overall happiness of the nation as their primary determinant of success or wellbeing as opposed to countries like Australia where we primarily, , measure and value gdp, right? Or gross domestic product. And you know what I loved about [00:18:00] their model? Was, there were so many, layers and complexities to it, but also so many ideas which we could actually transfer into business. Mm-hmm. into redefining success for us entrepreneurs. You know, let's take time. Use as an example. You know, are we just using our days to fill the nine to five or you know, eight to six much more often or even longer, Or are we doing it to break free? You know, are we still feeling or experiencing that sense of time? Scar. Can we measure success through our health, You know, and how stressed we are, or how relaxed we are, or how relaxed our consumers or customers are when they interact with us, right? You know, we could also look at our working environment, how it makes us feel, or our contribution to the planet and the world around us. So really. Taking the time as an entrepreneur, I think to redefine what success actually means to us and to give it a much more holistic picture. Mm-hmm. of things that actually contribute to our wellbeing is really important. [00:19:00] Yeah. And then of course this inner work comes with that. You can't redefine success and actually understand what it means to you unless you're able to kind of stop and be with yourself for a moment and understand what is most important to you. Sarah: Yeah. And you brought up something that really was also a big aha in my, Personal development journey is this correlation between time and money. You know, you feel like, okay, finally you've dealt with your money story and you kind of detached yourself from this, tight hold on, on the money stuff. And then you realize, Hold on a minute, , I have the same kind of scarcity approach to time as I did to money. Because obviously also there's the saying time is money and all of that, right? and so, I feel like the new business paradigm also values time much more than or to an equal amount, at least as money. and really looking at how do we want to spend our time? And I, we [00:20:00] see that already post pandemic, right? People are like, Well, I don't want to commute two hours anymore. I'd rather spend that time with my family. So time has really gotten a new, Yeah, a new weight in terms of the values that , we, you know, prioritize. So I think this idea of figuring out how do you approach time? Are you still always hustling? and usually yeah, it's linked to money because you wanna. Use your time more efficiently in order to make more money. Right. It's just, Laura: it's crazy. It's linked to money, but it's also something that I think that I refer to as internalized capitalism. You know, internalized capitalism is the equation of our worth with our productivity, with what we produce. So it's not just about getting more money, it's, it's when we feel guilty, when we. Yeah. It's when we go into work, even when we're sick. Yeah. It's that sense of, you know, we've got a lot to power through in this meeting. We're just gonna squeeze a little bit more in mm-hmm. , [00:21:00] or, you know, I'm gonna like make this phone call while I'm on my run, while I'm like cooking dinner in the microwave or whatever it is. This feeling that there's just not enough time. Mm-hmm. , and it's partly because, you know, We have internalized the cultural systems around us to such a degree that says if I'm not doing enough, if I am not maximizing my time, if I'm not making every ounce of this, you know, which is scarce because everything is scarce. Then I'm not worthy. Right. Then I'm not good enough. Yeah. And so there's a lot of that kind of steeped into it as well. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So good. , let's talk about the transition because you know, as people are listening, they're, they're like, Yeah, that sounds great. You know, Yes, I wanna be feeling more, , at ease and relaxed about my business. And, but how do I make the transition and. I just feel like I'm not there yet, but I'm definitely on a good pass. I feel like , I, you know, I block time now [00:22:00] for, , walks outside, like every day I have an hour, , going for walks either with a dog or with friends. I make that my priority before any kind of business stuff. And, and I do my yoga, so things that matter to me and that I know they're, , Things that matter, , you know, 10 years from now. So it's, it's kind of this longer vision rather than just, you know, what do I do today in order to make my business grow? So, , and yet I do have that, I feel like this internalized capitalism because as a Gen Xer, That's just how we grew up with, right, How we grew up. It's like all these things that we hear in our head and it feels, it feels very challenging to want to do things differently when. Every where you look, people are still talking. You know, the old talk about scaling and hustling and you know, maybe, maybe in the corporate [00:23:00] world there's a bit less of that because you still get paid if you don't, you know, if you don't commute or whatever. But has entrepreneurs, Well, it's still about, you know, how do I make a living and how do I make enough so I feel like. It would be interesting for you, you to share also, how do you take care of yourself while going through this transition knowing that we're not there yet, and so you are probably gonna be one of the few who thinks like that. I think that's the point I'm trying to make because believe me, I feel alone a lot of times when I feel like my week is really easy and I don't. You know, a lot of work and I give myself time to grow the circle, for example, and I feel. Am I doing this right? You know, who, who, who else is out there? Who does it like, like I wanna do it. Laura: Oh, you know, I so get that , few weeks ago, I think I decided to kind of just take a step back from launching anything. I was a bit [00:24:00] overwhelmed. I had a lot happening in my personal life. I wasn't ready with the materials like I wanted to be. And I'll say, Okay, no, like just pause. Take the time. You know, I'm very privileged and fortunate that I was in a position that I didn't have to make money right then and there. You know, that may have been a different story, right? But of course then in taking this time, then this is Pushful of, am I doing enough? You know, am I doing this the way that I should? Because like everything out there says that I need to be doing this now. Mm-hmm. , you know, but there's a part of me that's going, No, it's actually. Everything has a season, everything has a time. And to trust that, Yeah, So there is so many different practices I think in, in taking care of ourselves throughout this, but for me, I think it's about returning back to my body, to what it's really feeling, what it's offering, what its energy level is. Because so often, We override our body. You know, when our body needs rest or it needs pleasure, or it [00:25:00] needs stimulation, or whatever it is. And we go, No, I've gotta work. No, I've gotta do this. I've gotta send this email, I've gotta launch this course. I've gotta put this out into the world. And when we do this, when we override our body enough, when we're so disconnected from it, then we really lead to a state of burnout very easily. Mm-hmm. . So coming back to. What am I really feeling? What is true for me in this moment? And then what do I ac? What are my desires right now? What am I callings right now? And so, yes, I need discipline. Yes, I need structure. These are important things that every entrepreneur needs, but also a little bit of trust of ourselves and trust that there is a. And if it is not the time now, that it will be the time at some point that you need to be ready for that. Right. And you need to trust that you'll know when it is. Mm-hmm. . Sarah: Yeah. It really sounds like, , this balance between the being and the doing that I talk a lot about on the podcast, you know, this yin and yang, all of this, and. And if you are [00:26:00] struggling in your mind, which we often do when we're thinking about growth and those things, then it's time to come back to the yin, which in what you said is the body, and you know, just the energy and, and give the mind and break and say, Yeah, I know you want to, you know, grow or whatever, but right now we need to focus on on other things. Yeah. This is so good. Laura: Yeah. I wish there was some nice easy answer for so much of this. Like, you know, you just like, tick this box or like, you know, you take this pill or press X button, whatever it is. Like it doesn't exist. It is this nuanced kind of place between the being and the doing that is like the perfect description. Sarah: Yeah. Do you feel like though, I mean you already are younger than I am, and do you feel like the new generations. It will come easier for them because maybe already they see more people doing it in a different way. Laura: [00:27:00] I want to say yes. , yes and no. I think it really depends on, The environment in which you have for young people been raised in and what they're coming out of. Mm-hmm. , You know, I think for the younger generations there is already an inherent distrust of the system and a desire to do things differently, and I think that is really powerful. And then it will be how, and I know some amazing young people who are already doing this, but how they choose to challenge those systems, right? It's very easy still to kind of fall into. A, or resistance to systems, or as opposed to, Okay, let's actually build something new. Right? And so my hope for the generation younger than me and also for my own, is that we continue to build something new that we do both. That's a place for resistance, and there is a place for trialing and prototyping and experimenting with a new way to do business and a new form of entrepre. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a good segue into your business of Rev [00:28:00] Revolution. So I talk about the Humane marketing revolution. You talk about the revolution, , for business itself, and you have this framework also with the six leaves. Maybe just quickly, , cuz we don't have that much time left, but quickly give us the different leaves and then I wanna dive into the one about choosing life and human centered versus life centered. But give us the tour of the six pillars. Laura: Yeah. So I run a program called Business for the Revolution, and this is really. I hesitate to use the word anti-capitalist, but it's really about exploring what it is for entrepreneurs and solo entrepreneurs to explore business beyond capitalism using feminist principles and anti-oppressive principles. So there's six pillars upon which the work is based, which is really about using abundance over scarcity. So really looking at what it would mean to feel like there's enough. To know that there's enough and to really market and sell at the speed of trust and relationality. The [00:29:00] second is understanding that everything is relational. Everything is connected. You know, there's so many sayings like it's business not personal, and you know, the ends justify the means, or, you know, it's, it's not, it's not real. It's just what I do here, or leave your personal life at the door, whatever it might be. But recognizing that actually business is an extension of us. It is just another ways we're relating to one another. So understanding everything is relational and we need to come back to everything is connected. Now, the third that you mentioned is choose life. You know, in an age of ecological breakdown, which we are in, it is not enough to be sustainable, like sustainability is too often about maintaining the status quo. We need to be actively regenerating both the earth and our culture. So really exploring this idea of a regenerative culture. Right. The fourth principle is dream deeper. You know that we need to embed our vision, our values, and [00:30:00] our vocation. Those callings into everything that we do. We need to really reimagine the world and then reimagine how we want our business to serve a more beautiful world. So we're kind of widening the scope of what we're trying to picture. Fifth principle is that business is political. , for too long business has upheld and perpetuated, , racism, white supremacy, injustice. It still does, Capitalism does, and a lot of global business does where, where more disconnected from it than perhaps we used to be, but it still exists. So understanding that business is political and that we need to be conscious of how we're embed. Anti oppressive and feminist principles into what we do. Mm-hmm. . And the sixth and final principle is about wide streams of value. So Edward Abbey once said that growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. And you know, I love that because when you think about the natural world, the only thing that grows with [00:31:00] that end is cancer until it kills itself. Mm-hmm. . So what we. Looking defined with this principle is really redefining success away from growth. What are our wide streams of value over our tall mountains of growth? So these six principles are really about reimagining how we do business and how we want to show up in our business. It's about embedding these values into our strategy, into our operations, into our marketing, into our sales, into every aspect. So it's no longer about just what we sell or what we do or what we're offering to customers, but the way in which we run the business. Sarah: Mm. Yeah. I just love that so much, really, resonated with me. And on that workshop we, I was on, I was like, Yep. I gotta talk to you, Laura, and have her on my podcast and, and I learned a lot more having this conversation, so thank you so much. One of the concepts that I also kind of had a big aha around was this idea of [00:32:00] human centered versus life centered, right? , human centered is a term that. Myself and other people in business marketers, , have been using a lot, these past years. And it kind of almost got like, you know, like authentic. It became this buzzword. Oh, if you say human centered, then, then that means you're, you're getting it. And, and so when you, , said, Well, actually we need to extend it to life centered, it really kind of blew my mind a little bit. I. Wait a minute, I thought I'd been having it right. All this, all this time, and now here you are expanding my thinking and saying, Yeah, human centered is good, but let's extend it to life. So maybe just talk to us a little bit about the difference in what life centered really means and how, how that looks like in, in the marketing world, for example. Laura: So for me with this point, I think I was speaking about, you know, when we're [00:33:00] talking about the ideology of how capitalism shows up in business, is that it's very human and and human centered. And when we're looking to go beyond capitalism, what would look different? And we're like, well, actually it would just be life centered. And really what this was about was breaking down the binary that there is a difference between humans and the planet or humans in the natural world. Mm-hmm. as if somehow what is good for humans might be good for the planet, it might not be. Or you know, what's good for the planet probably won't be good for humans and vice versa. They're not. We are of the natural world. We are the natural world. We are intrinsically linked. Right. When we're looking as well at these deeper mindsets that actually influence capitalism that have led to the climate crisis and some of the struggles that we are facing today. So much of that comes from a place of separation or a place of domination that humans are somehow separate from everything else and that humans are somehow. Better than or above. And you know this principle, [00:34:00] it's not about being all airy fairy and like, Oh, we need to just, you know, like save every dolphin. We should all be vegans, or whatever it is. It's really just about widening the sphere of value to go beyond the human and to look at the essence of life, you know, the essence of life that animates all living things on this planet and to understand. Where there might be value for that. Now you can apply this really looking at regenerative culture into our supply chains, you know, and what is happening at the ends of the supply chain that perhaps we don't see, you know, really examining every end in our marketing. I actually am very curious to hear from you, cause I think you are the expert here around what it might mean to have a life centered approach. Yeah. Sarah: Actually, I'd love to hear from you on that. Mm-hmm. . Yes. So to me, really. I think it, it's a, a different stage, , and maybe, you know, depends on where people [00:35:00] are in their journey. Coming to human centered is the first stage in some kind of development, right? Maybe they have been just. Focused on growth and numbers and scaling and money making. And so coming back to human centered, I feel like that's the first stage maybe in this personal development and kind of seeing the bigger picture. And yet, and once you, you know, got that and you're like, Yes, human connections are important, I think then you are ready to go to the next stage and say, We might have a very limited time here on Earth. It's not enough anymore to just talk about human connections. We really need to extend it. And to me, that brings in this idea of the triple bottom line and doing marketing in a way that involves, yes, our human relations, but then also the win for the planet. And so really, using. [00:36:00] What I talk a lot about in humane marketing is our worldview in our marketing. And that worldview has to do not just with the humans making doing business, but also, , you know, what do we stand for, , in terms of our values and how do we plan to, save this planet somehow. So I feel like it's. a third stage of getting more connected and seeing business as having a role to play in the whole sustainability piece, Right? So, Laura: human flourishing is tied to ecological, flourishing, Right? You know, this idea that we can flourish when the earth is not, or that we can just go to another planet is, you know, It's not accurate. Yeah. It's part it. It will catch up with us. Yeah. And so it's really bringing it back to, Okay, well actually you're right. As business owners, I think we have a tremendous source of power. Even those of us who are solar printers, like you don't have major global [00:37:00] Fortune 500 companies. I don't think they can lead the way to change because they're too stuck in the old paradigm. Yeah. But when you're looking at small businesses and how we can pivot and how we can use our values and. And embed this idea of regeneration, of embedding life, giving principles into all that we do. So into physical products, into supply chains, into materials, but into our communities, into our cultures, into our interactions is so important. I love that definition and I agree it's this kind of next stage of looking at it beyond the human. Yeah. Sarah: The other thing that comes up for me is also what we previously discussed of, you know, seeing the new definition of business post-capitalism. , about something that is holistic and it includes our whole life , and how do we want to create this life, and make it life centered and not just maybe business centered or money centered. So to me [00:38:00] it's also this idea of life centered means we want to create a sustainable life for us ourselves without burnout. So beyond the sustainability piece, which is important. I also feel like life centered means well, let's create a life that we can sustain and, and that we enjoy living rather than, you know, going into that hustle mode and, and always making more and more and more. Laura: Yeah, I think it's about flourishing. Mm-hmm. , you know, it's about thriving. Yeah. And too often we don't think of that in our society or in business. You know, we kind of focus on like just getting by or like just being good enough, you know? You know, How are you? , Sarah: good. I'm busy. You know, Instead of Yeah. Laura: Yeah. But instead we could be flourishing. We could be thriving, and. Shouldn't we, You know, why not design our lives and design our business to promote human, our own and ecological [00:39:00] flourishing, You know, so they're all live around us. And this doesn't mean you need to be out there working with dolphins or whatever else. No. Yeah. But the essence of what you're doing is embodying the principle. Yeah. And that I think is where the change comes Sarah: from. Yeah. I. I'm so glad you brought up the, the busy answer cuz that's when I notice my internal capitalism every time somebody, you know tells me, Oh, I'm busy, I'm. I don't know. I'm not that busy , so am I doing something wrong that I'm not that busy, but I just, yeah. I'm not buying into the busy stuff anymore. I'm like, I don't wanna be busy. And even if I'm, you know, working on something that I wanna really get out, then I don't call it busy. I guess I just. College. Yeah. I'm working on something that gives me great joy. I just feel like busy now has a bad after paste Laura: Yeah. You know, this idea, we need to stop the glorification of busy. Yeah. Because again, but it's that link to the fact [00:40:00] that we're always, well, if we're busy, we're doing more, where we're keeping up, we're doing enough. Like, so that sense of scarcity underlying. Busy is really important to notice. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I know we could keep going and we're, we're having a real fun here, but, , I think we need to start wrapping it up, but this has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Please do share, with people where they can find out more about you, your work, your program. Laura: , yes. So you can go to my website. My school is called Public Love Enterprises. So Public Love Do Enterprises. You can find me on Instagram at Laura Do H dot Hartley. I'm also on LinkedIn and Facebook. So please check us out. Google. Laura Hartley, Public love, public love enterprises, and I look forward to, , Working with you further and getting to know your guests and thank you to everyone who is listening. Sarah: Yeah, thanks Laura. I have one last question. , what are you grateful for today or this week? What comes up? Laura: I'm grateful [00:41:00] for my partner. I have an incredibly supportive partner who always brings me back to myself when I start to go somewhere else. Nice. And so she's who I'm grateful for. Sarah: Nice. Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing and for being here. Thank you.[00:42:00]

Melissa wants her daughters to avoid relationships with abusive men, but she knows that she set the opposite example with her marriage to their father. - Dr. Laura: "You can't change the past, but you can remedy the situation with honesty, compassion and validation."Is your marriage one your children can admire? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

James is beating himself up for not taking advantage of a real estate opportunity that he believes would have been great. - Dr. Laura: "You deserve a pat on the back instead of a kick in the pants."Are you happy with the path you've taken in life? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Brandi wants Dr. Laura's advice on how to stop making poor relationship choices. - Dr. Laura: "You are worth more than your bad choices."What bad choices are you making in life? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Keesha invited her loser brother to live with her, but the arrangement is making her pretty unhappy. - Dr. Laura: "You'll be better off when you start putting more thought into important life decisions."What decisions have you made that you wish you could undo? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Miriam is struggling as the mom of a 5-year-old and attributes her parenting challenges to her ADHD. - Dr. Laura: "You'll be a better mother when you stop viewing yourself as broken."Do you believe you are a good parent? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Laurie and her son are estranged since she told him she doesn't like how his fiancé and her mother to boss him around. - Dr. Laura: "You trained your son to rely on others to tell him what to do."Are you allowing someone to tell you how to live? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Renee's husband encouraged her to pursue her dream job, but now he's pressuring her to reject the job offer. - Dr. Laura: "You have to decide if his pattern of controlling behavior is something you want to continue living with."Does your spouse support your dreams? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Vanessa dislikes a certain personality trait that she inherited from her mother and wants to make a change for the better. - Dr. Laura: "You're an adult who doesn't have to live in fear of upsetting her mother anymore."Have you felt like you were turning into your parent? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Why is Valerie driven to obsessively snoop on her husband's devices looking for porn when finding it makes her so unhappy? - Dr. Laura: "You've designed a way to protect yourself and gain leverage in this relationship." Do you snoop on your spouse? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Leslie and her husband are ready to move on from traveling with their long-time friends, but what's the right way to let them know? - Dr. Laura: "You cannot constrain your life in order to avoid hurt feelings."Have you outgrown a friend relationship? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

22-year-old Connor is at a loss for direction now that his girlfriend of the past 5 years has moved away. - Dr. Laura: "You're just at the beginning of figuring out who you are and where your life is headed."At what age did you figure out what you wanted your life to look like? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

How should Michelle respond to her mother who just confessed that she cheated on Michelle's father? - Dr. Laura: "You are her child, not her friend. Don't let her burden you with her drama." What do you wish your parents would refrain from sharing with you? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Allison says she is sad and having a hard time moving on after breaking off a three-way love affair. - Dr. Laura: "You've successfully avoided the risk of a one-on-one relationship."Have you ever been involved in a love triangle? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Andrea wonders how she can maintain a relationship with her parents who don't get along and constantly put Andrea in the middle of their drama. - Dr. Laura: "You allow yourself to be abused when you listen to their complaining."How do your parents get along? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com What should we do when we've been wronged? In "Surviving a Shark Attack (On Land)," I wrote about overcoming betrayal, humiliation, and pain, including how I've faced challenges in my own life. For a limited time, get the eBook for $1.99 when you click here - https://www.drlaura.com/dr-laura-book-surviving-a-shark-attack-on-landTo participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Kassie doesn't want to see or discuss her friend's husband after learning about the abusive ways he has treated his wife. - Dr. Laura: "You have the right to decide who and what you allow into your life."Have you ever been the unwilling sounding board for a friend? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Teresa isn't sure what to say to her daughter about the secret wedding plans she stumbled upon while searching for information about her daughter's fiancé. - Dr. Laura: "You ask for trouble when you choose to snoop."Has your snooping ever backfired? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Maria says that, since giving birth to her daughter three years ago, her husband has grown distant and isn't showing her the love and affection she needs. - Dr. Laura: "You have to give warmth in order to get it."How has having children changed your marriage? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Max performed poorly in his special Navy program because he had a change of heart and is worried about how to tell his parents that he was released. - Dr. Laura: "You are the architect of your life."Do you allow other people's opinions influence your decisions? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Joshua's father expects him to work in the family business, but he'd like to take a different path. - Dr. Laura: "You're not obligated to follow in your father's footsteps."Is there something you're afraid to admit to your parents? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Gigi took Dr. Laura's advice on how to live after the death of her husband, and she has a beautiful update to share. - Dr. Laura: "You honor your husband by embracing life."Have you had to start over after the death of a spouse? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Angela's mother-in-law is uncomfortably involved in her marriage, and Angela and her husband are ready to move away. - Dr. Laura: "You can't fix a mama's boy, but you can move away from mama."How's your relationship with your mother-in-law? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Siblings Jade and Michael fear losing their father if they tell him about their step-mother's sexually inappropriate behavior. - Dr. Laura: "You cannot be like your father and not look at things because they're unpleasant."How have you dealt with the pain of parental alienation? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Twenty-two-year-old Jen struggles to move on from her heartbreak and disappointment over a potential engagement. - Dr. Laura: "You need to go through this so that you know you can survive this in the future."What would you like to tell your younger self while going through adolescent heartbreak? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coliese questions her choice to keep tracking her adult children's locations to calm her worries. - Dr. Laura: "You don't need surveillance for your adult children to know you love them."What do you think separates a protective versus controlling parent? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Despite drifting apart years ago, Kristy questions if she should cease contact with a childhood friend who suffers from a brain injury. - Dr. Laura: "You're still holding onto a memory of safety, but you don't need it anymore."Have you struggled to leave behind a friendship that was already over? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramPinterest.com/DrLauraYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wendy offered to take care of her boss at the end of her life, but after devoting her time and effort for several months, Wendy feels like a fool and wants her life back. - Dr. Laura: "You can't avoid your own problems by immersing yourself in someone else's."Is there something you're trying to avoid dealing with? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

At 51, Trisha says she still suffers from the pain of living with an abusive father who belittled her and told her she would never amount to anything. - Dr. Laura: “You will know you're successful when you can go an entire day not thinking of him.”Did you have critical or supportive parents? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Brittany says she has always disliked the way she looks and wishes she could feel better about herself. - Dr. Laura: "You'll always be better than some and not as good as others."How do you handle the things you don't like about yourself? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Michael suffers from retrograde jealousy and is demanding a picture of the man his wife used to date before they were married nearly 50 years ago. - Dr. Laura: "You're allowed to have feelings of jealousy, but not to act on them."Has jealousy hurt your relationship? Email me your thoughts at: drlaura@drlaura.com To participate on the radio program; call 1-800-Dr-Laura / 1-800-375-2872 or make an appointment - https://www.drlaura.com/make-an-appointment. Find me on social media at:Facebook.com/DrLauraInstagram.com/DrLauraProgramTwitter.com/DrLauraProgramYouTube.com/DrLauraBecome a Dr. Laura Family Member: https://www.drlaura.com/ See https://www.drlaura.com/privacy-policy for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.