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April Fool's Day is all about jokes and pranks, but when it comes to retirement planning, getting fooled can cost you real money. Today, we're uncovering the beliefs that fool retirees and pre-retirees into making bad financial moves.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1: It's time once again for another edition of Plan With The Tax Man. And April Fool's Day is around us, all about the jokes and the pranks, but when it comes to retirement strategies, we want to make sure we don't get fooled in a way that can cost us any real money. So let's talk about that this week here on the show.   What's going on everybody? Welcome into the podcast. This is Plan With The Tax Man, with Tony Mauro from Tax Doctor Inc. Serving folks all around the Iowa area. If you've got some questions, some concerns, need some help, please check him out and go talk with a qualified professional like Tony online. You can get some time on this calendar@yourplanningpros.com. That's yourplanningpros.com, or you can call him at 844-707-7381. We'll have information of the podcast if you'd like to click on those as well. Tony's got 30 years of experience helping people get to and through retirement, and a great resource for you to tap into. So, Tony, it is April Fool's Day-ish at the time we're dropping this. I think we're dropping this like maybe a few days beforehand, but are you a big prankster?   Tony Mauro: I'm a huge prankster.   Speaker 1: Are you?   Tony Mauro: It's my second favorite holiday, yeah.   Speaker 1: Oh, okay. All right. So does your wife get tired of it?   Tony Mauro: My wife gets tired of it, my son, my dad, everybody.   Speaker 1: Okay.   Tony Mauro: But they play them on me too, so yeah, we have a lot of fun with April Fools.   Speaker 1: Good. That's good. Yeah, my dad was pretty bad about it when he was with us. He was always pulling something on his family members, so it was like, all right, now you had to be on guard whenever it rolled around.   Tony Mauro: Absolutely.   Speaker 1: You knew he was up to something. But let's talk about a few categories here from a financial standpoint where we don't want to get fooled, Tony. We want to make sure, and look, it's super easy right now. Right. I mean, between the news headlines, social media, the polarization of people, whether you're left or right, you like the administration, you don't like the administration. Everybody's got an opinion every six seconds of the day. Right. And so it's very, very easy to see a bunch of stuff that maybe kind of gets you all worked up. Right.   So we want to make sure that we're not just stepping in something just because we're having a visceral reaction to some sort of media bombardment or whatever. So let's start with the high returns since obviously right now, Tony, we had a choppy March, right? So the markets were choppy. I think it's easy when we find it, we all love it when it's high, right? So we all love the market when it's doing well, and we've had a pretty good market for, let's be honest, we haven't really had a prolonged downturn, right? Since 08, 09. If you think about it, we're closing in on 20 years since we've had a sustained prolonged downturn.   Now we've had blips, we've had the COVID downturn, and we had different things. 22 was rough for a little bit as well, but it's not been sustained more than a couple of months, right? So I think people that are kind of get lulled into the, Hey, the market's beating you up, let's get you into this product that's got guaranteed high returns. Be careful of that, right? Make sure you're really doing your diligence and reading the fine print.   Tony Mauro: Yeah, you do have to have that, because it is, and I always know when maybe the markets are possibly too high, when everybody, especially people that are just tax clients, aren't wealth management clients are saying, "What do you think about this stock? What do you think about that stock?"   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: And,-   Speaker 1: Or should I get into an annuity or whatever?   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: All that kind of stuff, because they think that because where we've been for the last 20 or so years, returns are easy and there's some foolishness to that, I would say.   Speaker 1: Some fool, yeah, fool's goal, I think that's a good way. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Because you got to look at it this way. High returns do come with volatility and some risk. And so whether it's in a stock or you're locking yourself up in an annuity, which is a whole different type of product, then you certainly got to understand what those risks are and have that explained to you. And if that's not your appetite for obtaining that return, which we always work off, we're trying to get you the best return based on how you want to get to point B, so to speak, with the least amount of volatility and the least amount of potential tax consequences. Now that may not be, and even come close to say S&P 500 returns, but for you that might be good, but for somebody else,-   Speaker 1: Good point.   Tony Mauro: It might not be.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: But don't just say, well, I want the highest return out there because there's always something new. Nobody, in my opinion, can accurately predict what the market is going to do tomorrow in the short term. Now, a lot of them, obviously, it's pretty easy to say, well, over the long term, that the market's the place to be.   Speaker 1: Oh, the market always comes back, right? I just saw this earlier today. We were just chatting about it, you and I, before we jumped on the podcast, and it was like, people are freaking out. "Oh, I'm losing my retirement because of this 10% correction we've had in March." And it's like, okay, first of all, and the immediate comment from someone is, "Well, don't worry. The market comes back." And they freak out and they go, "Well, I don't have time to wait for it to come back." Well, if you didn't have a strategy in place and you were planning on retiring and a 10% correction crippled you, then you weren't in good shape to begin with anyway.   Tony Mauro: No.   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: And you shouldn't have been in the market if you're ready to retire or you should,-   Speaker 1: Not at 10%. Yeah. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Not there. So it is,-   Speaker 1: Exactly.   Tony Mauro: We constantly battle that with tempering and making people understand and get their whole plan in front of them, just so they're not so focused on what's going on today,-   Speaker 1: Right. Right. Yep.   Tony Mauro: In the news.   Speaker 1: Yep. Which is the point of this podcast this week is, the April Fools, not that it's April Fools that they're pulling a prank, so to speak, but it's just kind of being fooled into things because of the constant bombardment of the media. You and I talked on the last podcast that in the course of the same day that we were chatting, the news cycle ran from the sky is falling earlier in the morning with the market to, oh, the outlook is looking pretty good because the inflation numbers came in and were down a half a point or a point.   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: So they just run with whatever's going to get them eyeballs. So just make sure we're, I think we all know that, but whenever we start to panic a little bit, that's when that little devil on our shoulder kind of creeps up and taps us and says, Hey, be worried. So let's talk about the next one, which is the tax time bomb. Getting fooled into underestimating taxes on your account. And here's the angle I wanted to take on this, Tony. So again, regardless of what your political slant is, if you find yourself, and here's, let me set this up. It's going to take a second, folks, but I think it'll, hopefully it'll make sense.   I'm one of those people, Tony, that my personal health and the family history says I'm going to probably pass away young, right, in my 70s. Now I could totally plan to liquidate and blow through all my money and have big fun and spend it all by 72 when I think I'm going to croak. But if I'm wrong, right, I'm going to be screwed. I'm going to be screwed, right, because I'm not going to have anything. Well, if you're right now, if you're all excited about the no tax on social security, no tax on tips or the conversation about abolishing the IRS or getting away with, great. Look, if that happens and they get rid, I think I'm sure we'll all be dancing in the street if they get rid of the IRS.   However, if they don't, don't you think you should have a strategy for dealing with the tax time bomb that you're probably sitting on, right? And that's my point, right? If you've got a million dollars sitting in a 401K, don't just kind of like go fool's gold and think, Hey, Trump's going to eliminate all the taxes and Bob's your uncle and you're going to get to keep all that money. Be smart in the event that you still have to pay your RMDs or whatever.   Tony Mauro: And I mean, you look back through all of history. Now, keep in mind what I tell people when they start talking like this is, tell me where you think that this, the biggest arm, the only arm almost for collecting the accounts receivable for the US government is, which is the IRS. They're going to go away. How do you think the government will function? Now, maybe they'll, like you said, maybe they'll come up with something over time.   Speaker 1: Sure.   Tony Mauro: And,-   Speaker 1: Maybe the tariffs will be the end of the solution, whatever, right?   Tony Mauro: Maybe it will.   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: But history points to, it's probably not. And many, many of us, I can't remember how many trillions is probably in the 401Ks right now, but we have,-   Speaker 1: That's a lot. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: We all have an IOU.   Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. It's almost 40 trillion, Tony. I'm glad you mentioned that.   Tony Mauro: It's 40 trillion?   Speaker 1: Yeah. Because the debt's 36 trillion, and they're always talking about the target that is, the retirement accounts is about 40 trillion out there.   Tony Mauro: We got 40 trillion. It's all in traditional 401Ks and of course,-   Speaker 1: A lot of tax money.   Tony Mauro: A lot of tax money. The IRS wants it. We all have an IOU to Uncle Sam with that money. And they know that and they want pieces of it. Hence, they're changing rules as we speak, that nobody seems to pay attention to when somebody dies and you inherit some of this stuff because they want their money.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And look, regardless of your stance, if DOGE does a good job and gets rid of some of the debt and some of the spending and our national debt's able to come down, maybe we don't have to tax ourselves into oblivion. Maybe that's the upside, right? Instead of going, we're in historically low tax rates, right, with the TCJA.   Tony Mauro: Just going to say that. Yeah.   Speaker 1: And at the time we're here taping this, Tony, we still don't know if that's going to get extended or not, right? Maybe it does, that's the prevailing wind, but maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But at least if nothing else, if it does, then we don't have to necessarily go up in taxes. But you're still going to have to have a strategy for being tax efficient, because that's a big chunk of your retirement money.   Tony Mauro: And that's what we focus on, is trying to be as tax efficient as possible, especially from the tax angle side, from being tax people that we want to make sure that they're not getting any more than they have to.   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: And so you have to, especially on the distribution stage, really be strategic about it and make sure you're following the rules and that you're not overpaying just because you don't know any better. And I think that's really the gist of it. And I would also encourage anybody go out and google the history of the tax rates. And you're right, we're at historically low tax rates compared to where we were just even in the 80s.   Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.   Tony Mauro: And so,-   Speaker 1: Well, even during the prior administration. If the TCJA expires, right, we're going back to what it was under Obama administration tax code. So even that goes up a little bit, so.   Tony Mauro: But that goes up. Now one could say, well the way to fix all this is just raise taxes. Well,-   Speaker 1: And nobody wants, I mean, look how we whine about,-   Tony Mauro: Nobody's going to do it.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, we get all bent out of shape about the stock market dropping 10%. You want to pay 10% more in taxes? Of course not.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. No. Nobody wants that. Nobody politically seems to want that. And of course, if you can't, it's like in business, if you can't control your spending, it doesn't matter how much you bring in.   Speaker 1: Yep. That's what,-   Tony Mauro: Right. I mean,-   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: You got to do something.   Speaker 1: Isn't it wild where we're at as a society? We all know we got to control spending, yet when you get somebody in there that starts doing it, they start screaming foul and going, why are you cutting spending? It's like, because we have to. We're $36 trillion in debt. That's crazy.   Tony Mauro: That whole thing is,-   Speaker 1: We're in the goofiest time period.   Tony Mauro: Hours.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. It's just crazy. But we have to, as advisors and as the public, we got to work with what we have.   Speaker 1: Right. You got to play by the rules. Yep.   Tony Mauro: We got to make it try to work for us and I think that's importance of planning.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I've said forever and a day, that it's their chessboard. We have to play by the functioning rules of the chess piece, right? If we're that chess piece is able to move one step at a time, then that's all we can do, right? So,-   Tony Mauro: We're done.   Speaker 1: We have to do those different pieces. So again, no matter what your political slant is, the point of this is you don't want to kind of fall for any one thing, one side or the other. You want to have a good strategy in the event that it does come through, or the event that it doesn't come through. Because you want to make sure that you can hopefully retire as efficiently as possible in any administration or any economy or whatever the case might be. So final one, we'll wrap it up this week just on a couple of things to be careful with, because we knew these were going to be some big ticket items Tony, is Medicare misunderstanding.   We'll switch gears and go to this one. Especially for the folks that are getting close to retirement, their first time stepping into it. My brother just got to 65. He's trying to get his bearings with understanding Medicare and the different things that it does. My mom's 80, in her mid 80s and she's quite used to it, so she's trying to school him on some things, but there's a lot of miscommunication out there on what it covers and what it doesn't.   Tony Mauro: There's tons of it and it's very complex. And then you add on to the top of it the federal government bureaucracy, and it makes it kind of a nightmare for a lot of retirees. But I can tell you this, it certainly doesn't, do not be fooled, it does not cover everything in retirement.   Speaker 1: Correct. Right.   Tony Mauro: You've got to make sure that you have some of these gaps and things covered.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: And that's where what I do is I have a Medicare specialist that I consult with for clients because I can't keep up on all those rules and he helps me with clients. And now of course, if he ends up selling them some insurance they need, well, obviously that's how he gets paid. But nevertheless, he really has the ins and outs of what it does and doesn't cover. And then also, okay, if something's not covered, are you willing to spend X to get it covered? And,-   Speaker 1: Good point.   Tony Mauro: Like everything else, you got to make a decision. Do you want to keep that as a gap and take that risk, or is that risk too big? But boy, Medicare, I mean, it serves a good base, but it does not cover everything and you really need to be on that.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Even within the same category too. And don't forget that they changed the way it's set up and providers can shift too. Like my mom recently, I think in the last couple of years she's gone through three different dentists because something happens with the program and the dentist she was going to says, "Well, we no longer accept it." Right. So, which is, I didn't think you could do that, but apparently you can. So different places can accept different things at different levels. So you have to kind of see who's in network, right, and who's out, all that kind of stuff.   Tony Mauro: My dad's like that. And like I say, he's 83 and he is over insured in this area because he like buys everything just because he doesn't want any gaps. And I think he, we tried to get him not to do that and because he's actually kind of wasting a little money.   Speaker 1: Sure. Sure.   Tony Mauro: But sometimes it does work in his favor.   Speaker 1: Makes him happy, right? So,-   Tony Mauro: Makes him happy.   Speaker 1: He walks in and he's covered, I guess, so.   Tony Mauro: He's covered. Yeah, I mean, he's got coverage, but to your point, sometimes it changes and then he sees a lot of different doctors and whatnot, not because he wants to, because like the plan change covered and they say, "Nope, you got to go over here now."   Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. She sees the same thing. So a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to Medicare as well. So just make sure that you're working with some professionals who can help you. Most advisors, offices, if they don't have a Medicare person on staff, they usually have someone they refer people out to so they can kind of, especially someone who does this in and out every day, they kind of know the nitty-gritty a little bit better. So if you need some help with that, as always, make sure you're reaching or any of the stuff that we talk about, make sure that you're talking with a qualified pro like Tony and his team at Tax Doctor Inc. You can find them online at yourplanningpros.com. That is yourplanningpros.com.   Don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify here at Plan With The Tax Man. Simply type the name of the podcast into the search box. You can find it that way. Or just go to the website, make it easy on yourself, yourplanningpros.com. We'll have links in the descriptions below. And as always, we appreciate your time. Tony, thanks for hanging out my friend. And don't be too hard on folks when you pull some pranks on them in April.   Tony Mauro: Oh, no. No, I'll just get my family and we'll see what happens. I'll let you know on the next podcast.   Speaker 1: All right. Let me know how it goes. Yeah, my dad was crazy. He would pull something that got a little mean-spirited sometimes. It's like, all right, now you need to back it off a little bit there, bud. So have yourself a good one, folks. We'll see you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

Ever wonder what other people talk about with their financial advisors? Well, we're going to discuss that this week here on the podcast, from a new survey of nearly 400 experienced advisors and what they see in their offices, and we're going to share that with Tony and see how that relates to and what he thinks about it, compared to his practice.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:    Speaker 1: Ever wonder what other people talk about with their financial advisors? Well, we're going to discuss that this week here on the podcast, from a new survey of nearly 400 experienced advisors and what they see in their offices, and we're going to share that with Tony and see how that relates to and what he thinks about it, compared to his practice. Let's get into it here on Plan With The Tax Man. Hey, everybody, welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with Tony Mauro and myself, as we talk investing, finance, and retirement, and we're going to break down this new survey. Well, it's not new. It actually came out December of '24, Tony, but we're going to run through this from Financial Advisor Magazine. So they did this interesting survey, so I'm going to get your thoughts on this, and we'll break down some data and see what you think. How you doing, bud?   Tony Mauro: I've been doing good.   Speaker 1: Yeah?   Tony Mauro: Spring is here   Speaker 1: Yeah, baby,   Tony Mauro: As we're recording this, it's staying light a little longer. It's kind of nice.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I know, right? So, everybody's just constantly with the time change thing, "Keep it. Don't keep it. Keep it. Don't keep it." All I know is seven o'clock, it's still light outside, and I'm happy.   Tony Mauro: That's right. I like it. Yeah.   Speaker 1: And you and I were just chatting at the time we're taping this podcast. In my neck of the woods, it is quite warm today, so I am totally digging it, so hope everybody has a good day and a good week. And don't forget to subscribe to us on whatever podcasting app you like using, by the way. Apple or Spotify or whatever, you can just simply type in Plan With the Tax Man in the app, or of course you can find the information at yourplanningpros.com. All right, Tony. Are you familiar with Financial Advisor Magazine?   Tony Mauro: I read it regularly, so yeah, I'm familiar.   Speaker 1: Okay. Well, they've got this new survey in there, like I was saying earlier in the tease there. 400 experienced advisors revealed biggest concerns, challenges, things of that nature from their clients, and everybody had an average of 20 plus years in business, so these are folks that have been around for a little while, so they've seen some ups and downs, so I'm going to give you some data here. Let's just talk through it a little bit. So seeking out a financial professional. Advisors in the survey said about 52% of their clients are looking for financial advice when it comes to retirement strategies. The other 34%, I know that's not totally 100, but 34% said they were just looking for someone to build wealth with. So, does those numbers strike you as interesting at all?   Tony Mauro: For us, I'd say our numbers are a little more skewed towards most of our clients are coming to us for retirement planning. Whether they're in the accumulation stage, that would be the accumulation stage, but I mean, the distribution stage, obviously, they're already there, but most of our clients, I mean, 34% sounds high for just-   Speaker 1: For just for wealth, yeah.   Tony Mauro: ... Building wealth. We're just asking them, "Well, okay. If you want to build wealth, and the next question is for what?" Then, of course they always say retirement, so maybe I'm just beating that a little wrong.   Speaker 1: Right, right. Well, now, to be fair, this is a wide range of ages, so it's not just retirees only that answered these questions, so it could be some younger folks too, right? So, that would make sense if you're in your thirties or forties, and you're just looking for wealth building, but I think if you find yourself in a position where, even if you're in your forties or even in your early fifties, if you're not starting to feel the need to discuss other things than just the wealth building, are you maybe working with the right person, right?   Tony Mauro: That's correct, because as you get, especially in the forties and, of course, in the fifties, there's other questions about the end game, which is retirement, but there's many, many other things that we tend to ask them and they started thinking about some of these stuff, anything from taking social security, to healthcare costs, to long-term care costs, where they want to be and how do they feel about it? There is ways to protect yourself and do things, and then as long as we give them that information and we feel like we help them understand for some of these upcoming big decisions they've got to make.   Speaker 1: Yeah, like RMDs, right? I mean, they'll be coming down the pike. What are you going to do with them? What does it do to your taxable situation? All those little things that we talk about often here on the program, so interesting that, again, 52%, about half the people surveyed, were looking for someone with help for retirement planning, which is good. I think maybe those numbers should be a little bit higher, but again, depends on the age of the person answering. Now, we often hear about people are woefully under-prepared for their future life, their elderly selves, but in the survey, over half of the advisors said the average client they see has around $760,000 saved for retirement, so three quarters of a million bucks, that's not chump change, so that's kind of encouraging to hear that there's over half the people that come in to see financial pros like yourself, Tony, are in pretty good shape.   Tony Mauro: Yeah, they are. I mean, for us, I would say our assets average is probably around that, but I would say it's a little bit skewed on the top end, because some of our clients end up having a lot more than that. Normally though, if you take the bulk of our clients, have assets well below that. Mostly what we're seeing, again, we're here in Iowa, but anywhere from $100,000 to $400,000, $500,000 is what they have saved at the time we end up talking about it, but we are generating a lot of interest from young people that really don't have much, and they're just starting out in that wealth building stage, and we don't turn them away. We don't have minimums that we require for assets. We just try to set the expectations of, your planning is going to be a little different than somebody that might come, that has more, one, because of the complexity, and two, because of just that you don't need that much hands-on advice.   Speaker 1: And every demographic. I mean, there's different cities, different demographics, but I think just in general it's good to see that on average, again, people are a little bit better, in pretty good shape, and I think that's what winds up happening often, Tony, when people do come in to see financial pros like yourself, most of them come in, going, "I don't know if I have enough," or "I don't know if I can retire." Then, when the numbers are ran, more times than not, and I talk to advisors all across the country, hundreds of them, and they all say the same thing. More times than not, people are in better shape than they realize.   Tony Mauro: I think so. Depending on their situation, we find that too, when we start running the numbers is, depending on what your goals are, as long as they're not outlandish-   Speaker 1: Right, right.   Tony Mauro: ... You're better off than you think, especially when you put the numbers to it and explain it to them, because generally, nobody does. If they want to do more, then that's when the planning comes in.   Speaker 1: And a lot of people, I do think they feel like, "Well, I got to get to the million." We've talked about that millions of times, as it is, but depending on what your situation is, as a couple, maybe somebody's got a pension, maybe you've got a good numbers in social security, maybe a million doesn't need to happen. Maybe $700,000 does get it done or $500,000 or whatever, but on average, I think it's still pretty good encouraging to see that people's asset totals are a little bit better than I would've thought, so that's nice to see. Top concerns, check this out. Surveyed advisors say their top concern, no surprise here, Tony, 38% outliving their assets. That's always the top dog, right?   Tony Mauro: For us, yeah. Well, actually, for us, it's the second one here, the reliable income streams.   Speaker 1: Oh, really?   Tony Mauro: Yeah. Just for us. Then, it's outliving the assets, but those two are the top two by far.   Speaker 1: Well, it was 38% for outliving their assets. 31%, right? So, pretty close for the reliable income streams. I mean, they kind of go hand in hand, right?   Tony Mauro: They do, because whether you're young or in your forties or fifties, that's the most important thing, because it's the end game of, do you want to spend every cent of your retirement income? And if so, that's a crapshoot a little bit because, depending on what you do, you could outlive them, and then you could end up with not a whole lot, but most of our retirees want to make sure that their assets, they've worked so hard to accumulate, that they can get a reasonable income stream from them, and then it goes hand in hand with so they don't outlive their assets, because they want to live off the income mostly.   Speaker 1: Well, think about, we were just talking about the number, the pot of money, the $760,000 or the million or whatever you put your number at, and the big bucket pot is not as important as the income streams, right?   Tony Mauro: That's correct.   Speaker 1: So again, $500,000 might get it done if the income streams are there that you need, so if you're both got a pension, maybe both got good social security or something like that, then you probably don't need as much, again, back to that point.   Tony Mauro: Back to that point of it all working it together, which comes back to the financial plan and knowing what those numbers are. My wife just got her, here in Iowa they have IPERS, so guess it's the government funded pension, which she's been in for a long time. I went and ran my own numbers again the other day, just about, here's the number that she's going to have that's going to come in when she's X age, and then what I wanted to know was, "Well, I want the number that we both can't outlive," and then I factored that in with social security and what else we have and say, "Okay." I mean, it was just a quick math, because I do it all the time. We're still in good shape.   Speaker 1: Nice, nice.   Tony Mauro: We're going to hit our goals.   Speaker 1: Nice.   Tony Mauro: So, that's what the planning is all about, but most people don't have even that starting point, because they've never taken the time to figure it out, and I think that's where the planner can help out a lot.   Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, definitely. Now, the next one on here, Tony, pretty interesting. Again, keep in mind this survey was done December of '24, but future stock market downturns was only 12.5% as a concern. Now, today, if that was done this week, that we're taping this podcast, it might be a little different; however, I do want to bring up at the time we're talking right this second, Tony, the market's been about down about 10%. You and I were just chatting about that at the time we're taping this podcast, but at the time, I just pulled it up while we're chatting, it's up right now 1% today on the news that the inflation numbers were a little bit better than expected.   They came in a little bit better, and it's funny because I was looking at the news articles. Just type in S&P 500, and you get the immediate news responses, right? And this morning it was all the sky is falling doom and gloom. Here, this afternoon, and this is just after one o'clock. We're taping this eastern time, and the inflation numbers came out, and now all the news stories are, "Outlook, much better. Market wraps. Three things that could spark a quick recovery." All the news is positive, so you got to be really careful with that stuff, right? Because they're just in it to kind of capitalize on whatever the thing at that moment happens to be.   Tony Mauro: It is. With the news, as fast as it comes out, that's exactly what it is. Really, a lot of this, of course, we try to explain to our clients, take the long-term view. This is very short-term.   Speaker 1: Yeah. 10% is a normal correction. If that's all it winds up being, right? That's not a big deal in the grand scheme, right?   Tony Mauro: It is, and I just sent out, basically, a chart that I just got out of one of the research magazines, and you've probably seen them before, but I just sent it out to all of our clients, just the old cost of timing the market, and they have a chart, January of 3 to now, "You just invested $10,000 and just left it in a S&P 500 ETF. You would have $64,000, and now if you missed the 60 best days in all those 10 years, you would actually have lost money and only have $4,205," so-   Speaker 1: It is a long-term proposition, right?   Tony Mauro: It's a long-term proposition. You miss the 10 best days, and you only have $29,000, so you can't afford to try to say, "The market's coming to an end. Let's get out. Let's go all to cash." In my opinion. We tend to try to keep clients focused on that long-term goal, because short-term Fluctuations are just part of it.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Not to get too political or get off on a tazza, but I feel like sometimes we kind of give people a little bit of both sides of the coin. I was just watching somebody talking, who typically they're slant when they're interviewing or they're asking questions is typically right leaning, but they decided to kind of jump on the market downturn and said, "Hey, listen. With a lot of the layoffs that are happening in the government, people are obviously concerned about retirement, and now the market's been falling. It's kind of hard to factor in, kind of feel confident that you could even retire."   They took it from that angle for people being laid off, and it just occurred to me, through all the years of talking with you, and it's like if people being laid off today are worried about the stock market, like this week, they probably didn't have a good strategy in place, because typically your market monies are your later monies, right? So, if you're thinking about early retirement, and this was the conversation piece, was the early retirement buyout, should that be a factor, Tony? Should the market monies be a factor if you're thinking about an early retirement buyout? Because it's still going to be later money. God willing, you're going to be retired for 20 or 30 years, right?   Tony Mauro: It is, and I think you have to keep that retirement type money in that mindset. There's a lot of people. Obviously, it's getting a lot of news in the federal government.   Speaker 1: Sure, and nobody likes it when it goes down. I get it. Right.   Tony Mauro: And nobody likes to see people in masse losing their jobs, let alone in the private sector, but the bad part is it's part of life, and we have to kind of wait and see how all this is going to shake out. It's kind of only been going on for, what? 2, 3 months here?   Speaker 1: 30, 40 days. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Yeah, and so we just have to kind of wait and see, and hopefully, at the government level, if things get to a point, they've got the mechanisms in place to help turn it around. That's what they're all they're, supposed to be doing.   Speaker 1: Right, and I guess my stance on that was, really my question more was I think people, sometimes it's when we have downturns, we immediately focus on the negative.   Tony Mauro: Oh, yeah.   Speaker 1: And again, it's a human reaction, because nobody likes to see it go down, but if you have a plan and a strategy in place, you do realize that these are your later monies. It's a little easier not to completely freak out, right? At least hopefully, and again, 10% is a normal correction. Now, we don't know if this is the end. We don't know if it'll continue to drop or not at the time we're taping this, but it's just simply pump the brakes a little bit and realize that we were super over-weighted anyway, so some kind of correction was due anyhow.   Tony Mauro: It was, and you look at most individual company stocks, valuations were really high.   Speaker 1: They're all high, all the PEIs are high.   Tony Mauro: Oh, boy.   Speaker 1: And tech, really. Tech was really bad.   Tony Mauro: Really bad, and if you're in mutual funds, and that's their objective to go buy those, they're buying these at high valuations, and all this stuff kind of comes into play. But I agree with you. I think that this is all the more reason to have a plan, number one, and keep an eye on it, mark, watch it, and work with your advisor.   Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah. If you need to de-risk a little bit, hey, nothing wrong with that, right?   Tony Mauro: Yeah, no.   Speaker 1: But we've also been saying that for a while now. I mean, you're talking about the S&P. That's usually the average. That's the index that people cut and your industry use. The all time, 52-week high was at 6,100, and it's at 56 and some change right now. So, again, it's only about 500 points off of that. So again, not a massive downturn, but it's all about perspective and maybe peeling some risk off, which again, a lot of advisors have been saying for a while now, "Hey, the market's been up 22 plus percent the last number of years. Maybe it's time to take a little bit off the top there, just to kind of think about that."   Tony Mauro: Right.   Speaker 1: So, anyway, I won't beat that horse any longer. We'll move on. Healthcare costs was only an 8.5% as a top client concern, Tony. 8.5% on a healthcare cost; however, the advisors, themselves, feel like it should be more like 50% of their perspective client base should be thinking about healthcare costs. What do you think about that?   Tony Mauro: I think, for me, most of our clients that we work with are really concerned about healthcare costs and what it's going to be when they retire, and I think many clients, my older clients are starting and they think about it in their fifties, but I think even the young, which are not thinking about it, and they're still in the accumulation stage, should at least make that part of their plan as that boogie man, so to speak, is out there, from what we know today and make sure that you're factoring that in. But yeah, some of these costs are, as we always say, nothing goes down, but it seems like healthcare costs, and of course cost of education seem to go up way more.   Speaker 1: They always stay up. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: And so, I think it's a big concern, because you got to factor that in when you get off your company's healthcare plan or whatever you've got, and you've got to make it work. It seems like most of these people, like my dad included, who's now 83, boy, he uses the healthcare system a lot, because he's constantly at the doctor.   Speaker 1: For sure, and if you're not having the conversation, only eight and a half percent find it to be a top concern, then you could be setting yourself up for some heartache a little later on when an incident does happen, or if not to you, to your spouse, right? Because that's oftentimes what happens when we talk with advisors, is they don't get a plan together, especially for long-term care. One half of the relationship gets nailed with it, and the other half winds up suffering at the end, right? So got to have a strategy. You at least got to be talking about it. I know it's no fun.   Tony Mauro: At least talking. Yeah.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I know it's no fun, but you at least got to start putting some things together in that grouping. One more thing here, and then we'll wrap it up this week on the podcast for this, Tony, but working in retirement. According to the survey, excuse me, an average of 63% of clients surveyed that are age 55 or older, plan to work beyond age 65. They plan to work into their seventies. Interesting, right? So, 63%, more than half, want to work or are going to work past 70.   Now, the reasons are not necessarily because they were panicked about the market, because again, this was done last year, the December of last year, but I think there was two main things that stuck out. They felt like they didn't know if they had enough to totally feel comfortable retiring. 48% of those clients felt that their savings maybe weren't quite enough to live on, and the other 40% said, "Well, they were doing it for the health insurance," to our point a second ago. So this is where, again, a plan and the strategy's got to come into play, get the numbers ran, so you can even find out where you stand.   Tony Mauro: Yeah, because if you don't, then you are really just grasping at straws there, and you're just hoping that it works out.   Speaker 1: And you want to keep working, but what if your body goes new?   Tony Mauro: Yeah, your body goes new. And then, I would say, for us, probably on average, our percentage of clients, 55 to 65 that say they want to work for us, I would say it's probably around 35, 40%, but our clients that are 65 and older, our average is well above this 30% that are actually still working. Ours is probably closer to about 45%, but it's because they want to. They have a plan.   Speaker 1: Which is totally great, yeah.   Tony Mauro: And they just want to get out of the house.   Speaker 1: Sure.   Tony Mauro: So, they actually love it. They don't have to work for the money. They just want to do something and just stay involved in the world a little bit.   Speaker 1: Right, and I think that's where we want to be, right? That's where we'd like to be, having that work optional decision, but I think finding out that a lot of people are doing it for the health insurance coverage, certainly a little daunting there to think about, or they just don't know that their numbers are good enough to retire, like we started out with.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. I always wonder, when I see an older retiree working somewhere, if they're there because they want to or they have to, especially if they're at somewhere where you'd see, I don't know, maybe an extreme example in maybe the fast food industry.   Speaker 1: More physically demanding job? Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Yeah, yeah. More physically demanding. It's like maybe you just always wanted to do this, and just have no stress and just wanted to get out of the house, or are you really working because you have to?   Speaker 1: Now, that's an interesting point. Now, I've got a friend of mine who retired from a very stressful, big corporate position, managing a lot of people, so on and so forth, and he took a job at a supermarket, stocking the shelves, right? Literally, goes in, six o'clock in the morning, something like that. Works for four hours a day. They grab the baskets of stuff he needs to refill, and he goes out and stocks the shelves, and he said, "Dude, I am so happy. I don't have to manage anyone. No one's reporting to me. I know what I'm supposed to do. They trust me to just grab my stuff and do it."   I said, "But it sounds like such a," sometimes we have this stigma. It's like, "Oh. He must be working stocking shelves because he has to, because he's in his late sixties."   Tony Mauro: Right, right.   Speaker 1: And it's like, no, he's doing it because it gets him out of the house. He's like, "For me, the menial tasks helps me free my mind up," because he didn't have to think. He just does, so everybody's got their thing, right? It's like, don't judge somebody, just because you see them doing something.   Tony Mauro: Absolutely not, yeah. That's why I always want to ask them, because I don't want to judge them, but from what I hear from our clients, those types of work, which is most of the clients that I have, that's what they do is that kind of stuff. It is just menial stuff, because the one on one thing is I don't want a lot of pressure, I don't want to have to think.   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: I just want to get out, do something, feel like I'm contributing, and talk to people.   Speaker 1: Your body gets to move. He gets to talk to people. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: And they enjoy it. The same type of retiree, he drives for the shuttle at my car dealer, and he absolutely loves it. He's like 78. He works for about five hours a day. He drives people around and talks to them, and he goes home. He loves it.   Speaker 1: No stress, no fuss, no muss, right?   Tony Mauro: Nope, nope.   Speaker 1: So yeah, so interesting stuff in today's conversation around this survey done from Financial Advisor Magazine. We'll put a link into it in the show descriptions if you'd like to check it out for yourself. That way, you can read the online survey as well, but at the end of the day, Tony, you just got to see what it is that you have and what it is that you need for your situation, because everybody's situation is different. Tony's is different than mine, and mine's different than yours, and so on and so forth, right? So, get yourself onto the calendar folks. Have a conversation with Tony at Yourplanningpros.com. That is Yourplanningpros.com. He's got more than 30 years of experience helping folks. He's a CPA, CFP, and an EA. He's got all the credentials there. So if you've got some questions, reach out to him and get started today. Don't forget to subscribe to us on Plan With the Taxman. I know we went a little long this week. Thank you for your time, folks. We always appreciate it. Tony, my friend, have yourself a great week.   Tony Mauro: All right. We'll see you next time. Thanks.   Speaker 1: Yes, sir. We'll see you next time here on the podcast. We'll catch you later here on Plan With the Tax Man with Tony Mauro.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

If you've spent years successfully managing your own investments, do you really need a financial advisor? That's the question Bob, one of our listeners, sent in. He's got an MBA, knows the markets well, and has always handled his portfolio solo. So, is working with an advisor just an extra expense, or could it actually add real value? In this episode, we break down when and why even experienced investors might benefit from professional guidance and when they're probably fine on their own.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:    Speaker 1: If you've spent years successfully managing your own investments, do you really need a financial advisor? That's a question that one of our listeners sent in, and it works really well, because earlier this month, we had a similar question, but from a business owner's standpoint. So let's tackle it now from the other side and see if we can help you break it down here on Plan With The Tax Man.   Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with Tony and myself as we talk investing, finance and retirement. Of course, Tony here is the star of the show, if you will. He's the CPA and the CFP, he's the big kahuna. He's an EA with 30-plus years of experience helping folks get to and through retirement. And Tony, we had an email question that came into the website, yourplanningpros.com, you get lots of emails for things, and this one was based off the podcast. But either way, it was still interesting this month, so we tackled really two of them this month, in the month of February, thinking about the business owner's standpoint from our last episode for a question that had come in about, hey, I've built a nice business, but how do I make a retirement plan out of that? So if folks didn't check that out, feel free to go check out that prior episode, Plan With The Tax Man, on whatever app you like using. You can also find that information on his website at yourplanningpros.com.   And this week, we're going to do a similar question, but this is from Bob, and it's more the DIY, just do the normal thing retirement planning yourself. So Bob's question, Tony, says, "I have an MBA and I understand investments well. I've always handled my portfolio myself instead of having professional help, and I've done pretty good at it, if I'm being honest. So in your honest opinion," he says, "Is there really any reason for someone like me to work with someone like you, an advisor?" So we get a lot of this, and the DIY movement's been very popular the last couple of years.   Tony Mauro: It has, yeah.   Speaker 1: And so, it's certainly a fair question, because a lot of people definitely have taken this route. And Tony, I'll set you up this way, I'll let you just jump right in and tackle it how you want to with his question. But to me, the biggest piece is, is it the accumulation phase he's been working on or the distribution phase? Because it sounds like the accumulation, just based on this question, and that is a whole lot easier, I think, than the preservation, distribution, AKA the retirement phase. But anyway, what do you think?   Tony Mauro: The honesty is it depends, because if he truly is savvy enough that he thinks he is and basically doesn't have a lot of worries about what he's doing and how he's progressing and he feels good about it, we would tell him, "Hey, look," if we were sitting... What we do, the first phase of our whole planning process is we sit the client down and have them basically answer 10 extremely easy questions and we score it, and if they don't, based on their own responses, show some anxiety or worry or need for help, I tell them, "I don't really know why you're here in this meeting because it looks like you've got it under control." So then you have a conversation from there, "Tell me why you are here," and let it go from there.   But I think that where we can lend value, even in the accumulation phase... Because I try to convince people right off the bat, it's not about what investments or whatnot we pick, it's basically about setting a plan, let's make sure all the bases are covered, whether it's accumulating to a certain amount, your estate plan, making sure we're doing it with some tax efficiency, whatnot, and then let's check in regularly and let's make sure that this plan's still on track, and that's really what you're paying for. The investments we choose, we tell them, "Look, if you want to go choose your own, you go ahead. You'll just pay us a fee, just like you would your attorney." If you want us to help you manage that a little bit and you want to give us an asset-based management fee, we do it, but it's fee-only, no matter what. And so, we leave it to the client.   So I do think there's some benefit to a good financial advisor, but you have to understand as a client, any financial advisor that's worth their salt wants to do more than just give you ideas for investments.   Speaker 1: And so, let's look at it from that standpoint, Tony, because yeah, Bob sounds like a very smart gentleman, sounds as though he's able to handle things himself just fine, and many people are in that same boat, and that's great if you're thinking about one section of your finances, your money. So I want to look at it from a couple of different places to give Bob some reference. So the questionnaire and the thing you talked about, that's fantastic, helping people break it down. Is it just the portfolio? Because that's what he mentions, the portfolio. Okay, fine, you've got investment skills, you've done well managing your portfolio, but what about all the other pieces, Tony? So the stuff that we talk about here on the show quite often that maybe a lot of DIY people, A, don't consider, or B, really have much knowledge in or even thought about, like estate planning, just that piece of it, or tax efficiency, retirement income, any of those pieces. Wherever you want to go next, just jump in there. But I feel like those are a lot of things you go, whoa, I didn't even think about that.   Tony Mauro: All those things make sense as far as us as advisors being able to help with. And I think a lot of other things too, as far as somebody brings us their portfolio and they're all chest out and pumped up about look how good I did, and we try to run it through some computer models, just to maybe address some of their risks that they didn't think about maybe. It might be they're overly concentrated in a few securities that doesn't really line up with their overall goal or risk assessment. And then, most of the time, the people that do it themselves generally are trying to time markets to an extent.   Speaker 1: Or match the market, right, they're trying-   Tony Mauro: Or match.   Speaker 1: Yeah, I got 22% in the last two years, so I want to make sure I get that 22%, but your risk exposure is awful high.   Tony Mauro: It's awful high. So we always ask them, "In order to get that, what did you have to do, what did you have to risk to get that, and is that really truly what you want?" And then, the other thing is, let's take taxes into that. If you're investing inefficiently, are taxes knocking down your returns? So a lot of it goes into that, especially on the technical side. But let's say he passes all that and he still thinks he's in good shape and we say, "You know what? You are." And then it's up to the client to say, "Am I going to get some real value out of working with this guy or gal?" And hopefully, it's something that they can definitely do and be better off with us than without us.   Speaker 1: Yeah. And as a CPA, I would imagine, Tony, that one of the things, if the DIYers... Again, accumulating your wealth is a little bit easier nowadays, technology is very helpful, there's a lot of just some good stuff out there. Let's be honest, we've had basically a 16-year bull run. Yeah, we've had a couple of blips through the... But we haven't had a prolonged downturn since '08/09, right?   Tony Mauro: Correct.   Speaker 1: Not a long one, no more than a couple of months. The COVID thing was pretty short-lived, it was a little down in 2021, 2020, obviously, shortly there after COVID as well, little blips here and there. But for the most part, we haven't had a prolonged downturn. But let me get back to the CPA point, from a CPA standpoint, if you're doing really well as a DIYer on the accumulation, have you thought about the tax advantages or disadvantages that you're just not aware of? Especially as you get closer to retirement, pulling your money out from what income sources and what that does to your income, and maybe that triggers IRMA, that's another one that people don't think about often. So there's all these little nuances that we're just not normally aware of.   Tony Mauro: Yes, that's true. And I think another big one that we hear a lot of clients talking to us about is they think that they are doing themselves a great favor by, they hear something on TV or the internet and they'll start pulling money out of their IRA and transferring it to a Roth or their 401(k) into the Roth conversion, but what they don't realize is it's much more tax efficient to just fill up your current tax bracket bucket and then postpone the rest until the next year, because you're needlessly costing yourself taxes when you could spread this out a little bit, and sometimes that can add up to large amounts of money.   Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. And we've talked about Roth conversions here, and I think we think they're a good idea, I don't want to speak for you again. But you've got to Roth it correctly, not just wholesale Rothing, but Rothing over time, for example.   Tony Mauro: Over time, yeah. Because I think a lot of people miss, and certainly outside the tax community, the tax efficiencies or inefficiencies that you can do in investing. Now, is it going to kill you? No. But why leave money on the table, so to speak, and give it to the government, when legally you may not have to?   Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. All right, Bob, so here's another thought process for you to go through, to work on. Is this what you want to do in retirement? I think that would be another piece. Or even let me go one more, what about Mrs. Bob? Is this what she wants you to do in retirement, or does she have plans? So I think that's the other thing about the DIY side of things. It's great, we can do a lot of wealth accumulation a lot easier, Tony, than we used to could. But when it gets to the preservation phase, which is retirement, A, it's more complicated, B, do you want to spend your time doing that, or do you want to be with your grandkids and your spouse and fishing and golfing and whatever it is that's on your list?   Tony Mauro: And if you don't like it, and I mean really like it, you're going to end up putting it off, and then you're going to miss some things, both in the accumulation stage and definitely in the distribution stage. That's where, like you said before, it does get tricky, especially as you age. And then, you've got to think about long-term planning and some things there, and of course taking an income and distributing properly. And so, I always say it's two stages in life, like you said, it's accumulation, distribution, and each are vastly different.   Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, totally different animals. And boy, the first time you miss your RMD, you're going to be real mad about that.   Tony Mauro: Real mad about that, and you're going to have to beg the IRS to forgive the penalty.   Speaker 1: Right. One of the other questions that we posed in the earlier podcast this month when we were talking about the business side was the succession plan. So I'll ask Bob, and people like Bob, the same question here, Tony, what is your succession plan? Now, by that, you say, "Well, what do you mean? I don't need a succession plan, I'm my own advisor." Yeah, but you're going to die, we're all going to die, and if you pass away first, which statistically is the case, and again, Mrs. Bob, she might not want to do any of this, she might not have any interest whatsoever, so what is your succession plan for having her taken care of, or vice versa, whatever?   Tony Mauro: Yeah, vice versa. And even if you have this all laid out, whether it's on the computer or a life book, she may not have the same enthusiasm that you do with this and it's going to be difficult for her. I've had clients with this, the husband dies, the husband did it all. Most of the cases, the wife has no idea, not what's going on, but how to manage it and whatnot, nor do they want to. And so, I think that's where an advisor could certainly lend a lot of value in that case as well, and you want to start that relationship before something happens to you preferably, not after.   Speaker 1: Yeah. When you're grieving, it makes it easy to know, hey, when I'm gone, reach out to Tony and his team, they're going to help you.   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: That kind of thing. Or whoever it might be, but that's the idea. So I'll wrap it up with this. So look, you started off by saying if you're just picking items in your portfolio. And it's still funny, because the term advisor is so loose now across different kinds of fields, many investors believe advisors do just that, Tony, that the only thing that they do is help them pick stocks. And so, what would you say to folks who think, well, I'm going to do it myself because I can pick my own stocks? Because as we've touched on, there's so much more to what you do than just that. But what's your final thoughts?   Tony Mauro: I think my final thoughts there is that I would challenge anybody out there to try to not only match but beat the S&P 500 over long periods of time, and/or match what professional advisors can do. Now, that term is loose,, yes, I'm an advisor, but I'm not an investment advisor out sitting in a mutual fund researching individual stocks and bonds all day.   Speaker 1: Right, not run a broker, right, yeah. And you're not day trading, right?   Tony Mauro: No, we're not doing that. I would challenge you though to see if you can match those things year in, year out, when they're sitting there, who have much more knowledge and access to information than we do as Joe Public. And so, I would say that I don't think you could do it, I really don't, I haven't met anybody yet that can do it over long periods of time. And so, the idea for having someone like us is to keep you on track and get you where you want to go outside of the investment portion of it. If you want to go choose your own investments, again, that's great, but I think you need somebody that deals with the planning portion, day in and day out, to keep you on track.   Speaker 1: Yeah. And think about a company like Vanguard, which is a very low-cost option for people who want to buy and do their own thing, they even talk about the value that advisors bring, they rounded about 3% annually. And they also talk about, from the behavioral analysis side, one of the big pieces that they even talk about that advisors bring to the table with working with folks is that behavioral modification, because we are our own worst enemy.   So Bob might be doing a great job, but what if, all of a sudden, he's been reading a while about some new tech thing or some new cyber coin or whatever, and all of a sudden, you want to risk too much? Having that sounding board is a great idea, not only for Bob, but for Mrs. Bob as well, because it could be like, hey, we're on two different pages when it comes to leaving money to the kids. Bob wants to balance his last check so that him and the Mrs. can spend it all and have a great time, but she wants to leave a bunch to the kids or whatever, or the grandkids. So it's all those other pieces that, I think, having that... Well, Tony, basically that sounding board, sometimes you're like a counselor as well as an advisor.   Tony Mauro: We are, and I can't mention how many times... I like to mention it to the clients who will call up and say, during the good times, "Well, we don't feel like we got as much return as we needed in the previous year," or something. Or the best one is a client or a prospect will say, "Well, I'm going to divide up my between you and another advisor, we're going to see who does the best." And I'd say, "We're not in that game." Not that we're not focused on returns, we are, but I like to tell clients, "Our job is to keep you grounded, especially when the bad news comes out." Because clients, it's inevitable, bad news starts coming out, the markets go down a little bit, they're calling, "Maybe we should go all to cash." And I said, "Based on what? Who said that? And then, when do we get back in? Who's going to tell us, the news?"   And so, just keeping them from blowing themselves up, which they don't really ever see, but I like to sit in the background and say, like you said, "The last, what, 15, 16 years, we kept you in the markets, when many times..." Pick the subject that came out, COVID was the big one, we've got to get out, the markets going to hell and we've got to go all to cash. And it's proven that that didn't need to be the case. We did take a little blip, but they're so far ahead of that now that it's crazy.   Speaker 1: Well, and look at the turmoil that we're in right now too. So we've got a new administration, they're doing things that have never been done before, whatever the side of the aisle you find yourself on, there's a lot... We're $6 trillion in a deficit, that's annual, so we're $35 trillion in debt, but we operate at a $6 trillion annual deficit. You can't run your house that way. If you were running your house, Tony, that every year, you were losing $60,000, let's say, you wouldn't survive real long, unless you're mega, mega rich. And the government's been operating like it's mega, mega rich, and it's not.   However, I digress, point being is that there's a lot of things happening, and the market is reacting fast. There's all this AI stuff, there's this new DeepSeek version of AI from China that says they can do it cheaper and less energy and so on and so forth. Then you've got the fact that tech markets are massively overweighted, and they have been for a number of years. It feels very much like there's a bubble, similar to '08/09 with the housing bubble, and we've got all this stuff happening, and to your point about the markets, people can be edgy and they can be like, "Well, I'm going to panic and jump out." Well, okay, well, if you're 40 years old, that's insane.   Tony Mauro: Yeah, that's absolutely insane.   Speaker 1: Because you've still got plenty of time. And maybe even if you're 55 years old, it's insane. But how do you know if you don't have a plan?   Tony Mauro: Yeah, you don't. I just had a client, he's 55, for example, we've done well, and basically, he watches too much TV. I always get the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up when he's calling, because he's calling now saying, "You know what? I want to be more aggressive. I really think that the markets are going to be booming." I'm like, "What? You're starting to get where I'm thinking maybe we should go a little bit of the opposite, not all, but as you get a little closer to retirement, let's give up some of that risk for more steady returns." And so, it's weird, because when people want to get in, generally, if you ever read anything about it, of course, that's the time to be a little bit spooked. And then, when everybody's euphoria or when the market is tumbling and the blood's in the water, that's obviously when you want to be going like gangbusters and putting money in. But that's short-term stuff. Really, the plan is to stay long-term-focused.   Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a great point. The market's about the longevity in it, not jumping in and out and so on and so forth. And I get that it's been booming for a while and that's very enticing, so all that stuff we talked about, comes back to having that ear to lean into, "Hey, Tony, what do you think about this? Is this a good idea, bad idea? And could my portfolio handle this, or could it handle that?" And so on and so forth. "And what does that do to my retirement?" And so on and so forth. And then, we didn't even touch on long-term care, so that's another whole piece there, Bob.   So again, you may be doing a great job, but it also may be worthwhile to sit down with an advisor and have an hour conversation and say, "Hey, what are some things that could be missing?" To Tony's point, they can walk you through those steps. They can put you through a questionnaire and just see where you're at. You may be doing a great job, in which case, they're going to pat you on the back, shake your hand and send you on your way. But you may be shown some areas where there could be some improvement, or maybe you just, at some point, decide you just don't want to deal with all of it anymore.   Either way, if you've got some questions, you need some help, hopefully you enjoyed the content this week, we certainly appreciate it, reach out to Tony and his team at yourplanningpros.com. That's yourplanningpros.com. You can find all the information in the show links below of the episode, and you can find us on Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you like using. Just subscribe, the Plan With The Tax Man, with Tony Mauro, from Tax Doctor, Inc. Tony, thanks for hanging out and breaking it down, my friend.   Tony Mauro: All right. We'll see you next time.   Speaker 1: Always appreciate you. We'll catch you guys a little bit later on in the next month. We'll be back in March for more with Tony Mauro.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

As we kick off 2025, a lot of people consider what they want the year to look like and how to put their best foot forward, especially financially. Think: “new year, new me!” To figure out what the new “you” is all about, sometimes it helps to reflect first on what you've done in the past and what you want to change moving forward. Today, we'll talk about the financial decisions and habits you've maybe had in the past and what changes you can make this year to embrace the new you.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1: New year, new me is the topic of conversation this week on Plan With The Tax Man. As we get firmly into 2025, let's look at ways where we can put the old self to bed and work on our new self from a financial standpoint. Since everybody likes to do that as a New Year's resolution, let's do that financially as well. Let's get into it here on Plan With The Tax Man. What's up, everybody? Welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with Tony Mauro and myself as we talk investing, finance, and retirement with the big dog, the big kahuna over there at Tax Doctor Inc. Tony Mauro, what's going on, my friend? How are you? Tony Mauro: I'm doing good. Coming off the new year and getting ready for tax season. Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Tony Mauro: Very relaxed. Yeah. Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're relaxed, because I'm sure it's going to get hectic right soon-like, you know? So it'll be all up in your business with all that good stuff, but that's all right, because that's what you do. You've been doing this for 30 years, man. You've got a lot of experience. So you ready to go? Tony Mauro: I'm ready to go. We got some good topics to start out this new year. Speaker 1: Yeah. So are you a resolution-y kind of guy? Tony Mauro: Yeah. I have a few, but I tend to write them down, so- Speaker 1: Okay. That helps. Tony Mauro: Yeah, does help. Well, for me, it's a few financial, few personal, and try not to make too big of a list, because otherwise, we don't get it done. Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. I spent most of my life not being one, got into my 50s, and then decided last year to write down four, to your point. I only did four, and I was able to accomplish all four, and it made a difference, so I was like, "All right, not bad." You know? But I did forget, actually, there was a lot of things going on, and I didn't do it this year to walk into 2025, so I'm going to see if starting late makes a difference. But I am starting, I just started 10 days late. But there's this thing called Quitter's Day, which you can look up. People make resolutions and then they quit. I want to say I think it's the 16th, which I think is when we're dropping this podcast if I'm not mistaken. So I thought it would be interesting for us to go ahead and continue that trend by saying, okay. We're not going to do the Quitter's Day thing because we're going to launch this after maybe people have kind of weeded themselves out, and do this podcast on new year, new me. So what I'm going to do here is I'm going to give you the old you financial kind of statement, Tony, somebody who might find themselves in one of these categories, and then I want you to give us the new you spin, like what you should try to focus on if you're trying to go in a more positive direction. Okay? Tony Mauro: Sounds good. Speaker 1: All right. So the old you might say, for example, "I overspend, and I know it, and I live beyond my means." Well, kudos, first of all, if you can get yourself to admit that, right? Because that's a tough step right there. But if you are living beyond your means, that's the old you in 2025, the new you should be doing what? Tony Mauro: I think the best thing for the new you really should be to, number one, you have to track your spending so that you know what you're spending money on, so again, so you can prioritize and maybe purge out some of this overspending. But you have to identify what you're spending on first, otherwise you have no idea. And so rather than trying to just come up with that word that I hate, but you think most accountants like it, is budget, I like to just call it a spending plan. And basically, you've got to prioritize and list what you value most and what you can cut out because that is going to be the biggest thing to help you curb that spending. And I'm guilty of it too. I'm kind of an impulse buyer as well from time to time. And you just have to keep that in check because I think that's why so many Americans run up their bills or credit card bills and everything else because they just keep spending thinking that they're going to pay for it later. That doesn't bode well for a good financial plan and good financial health, if you will. Speaker 1: Yeah. And I know people don't like the B-word, but again, you can do a list of wants versus needs or whatever, something to where you can kind of see what it is. Is it still aligning with your priorities? Do you really need it, or is it just a want, right? And try to curb some of those impulse buys. That'll certainly help on that living beyond our means. So good job. All right. Good job with that one. How about this one? That last one could be anybody, people that are a little younger listening to our podcast, people that are a little bit older, whatever. This next one maybe fits a little bit more, Tony, with people who are getting really close to retirement or even in retirement, and they've been saving really, really well for a long time, to a fault, even. The old you is saying, "Look, I saved to a fault, and now I'm afraid to enjoy it," right? And I know that's a real hurdle for some people. They build this nest egg, they get to retirement, and then they don't want to spend it. They don't want to touch it. And so part of your job as an advisor is to go, "Hey, go enjoy yourself. You're going to be okay." Tony Mauro: You're going to be okay. And I've actually said this to clients before that have told me this, and jokingly, but really getting them to think a little bit is when they say that, that they don't want to go spend any of their money. And we keep telling them, "Look, we've been planning and doing a lot of the right things, and you're going to be okay. The numbers say you're going to be okay." What I tell them is, "You know what? As soon as you leave here, go to a nursing home, and just ask if you can walk the halls. And take a look around, or go to a hospital, and look at the people that are sick," and they'd give anything to have their health, number one. But the point of it is, someday it could be taken from us. We don't know. We don't have a magic card that says when we're going to basically be at the end. And so I think I try to get them to understand and prioritize again with some of the things that are most important to them that they want to do before they die, and let's pick off one or two here and there. And it's challenging for them, but most of them end up doing it if they only have to do one at a time. But I do think that sometimes it can be a fault. We're always trying to get people to save, save, save. And for the people that really save, most people are looking at them and saying, "Well, gosh. That doesn't sound like a problem to me," but it is for them, because they save it all and then they can't enjoy it. And that's the whole purpose of having it, right? Is to somehow enjoy it a little bit. I mean, that's what life's about. So a little more psychological, but yes. That's a big one. Speaker 1: Yeah. And I get that it's tough, right? And that's where we're seeing the stuff written form. Coming in and doing the reviews, Tony, that's where you can kind of see, look, all right, maybe you got to take somebody who's in this mode, and you say, "Okay. Spend just a little bit, and then let's see how that happens." "And then we will do the review. We'll do that annual review, and you'll see that you're still in good shape," and maybe that helps them start to learn it's okay to enjoy some of this money that you work so hard for. And as the fun, old saying goes, if you don't fly first class at some point in your retirement, in your life, your kids will, right? Tony Mauro: That's right. Yeah. Speaker 1: They're going to enjoy it. Tony Mauro: That's exactly right. That's a great saying, because that's what's going to happen. Yup. Speaker 1: So that's the importance, that's the value. Well, one of many values really of working with a financial professional. So don't beat yourself up. It's understandable, you worked hard for it, but you also got to enjoy it. You got to have a little bit of fun there as you get into retirement. All right. So next old you statement might be, "I don't know what I have or really where I have it." And that sounds weird to people to think you don't know where your money is, but there's a lot of folks out there, Tony, who maybe don't quite understand what it is they have and where they have it, so what should the new you be doing if this is where you find yourself? Tony Mauro: Well, the short answer is you need to work with a financial pro. But what I mean by that, because that's self-serving a little bit, I understand, is most advisors are now working throughout their plans that they work with clients on, one of the things they do, and it's all online on a portal now, as long as you as the client help the advisor as to everything you have, they're going to create for you a list of where all your accounts are, the amounts, and basically put together a net worth statement for you that's always updated. And you'll want to review that with them once a year to kind of go over it, so at least you can see here's where we were at last time when we talked, here's where we're at now. Now, if you have your investments with that advisor, that's going to update automatically. But you would, in other words, if you're working with an advisor, you don't have to go out and try to create that on your own. You certainly can use a spreadsheet, you can use some personal finance software, that sort of thing. But if you don't want to do that, you certainly can have your advisor help you with that. But the reason it's important, like you said, is you've got to know what your net worth is, or at least close at all times, especially in retirement, when you get on that fixed income, which will help you identify if maybe you are overspending and some things like that, and your balances are going down. Maybe you can pinpoint some of those things, where that money's seeping out. But I do think it's important, and I don't think it has to take a lot of time to create that. You just got to figure out which way you want to go with it. Speaker 1: No, that's a good point, and there's some good things to think about there. And again, it's understandable sometimes because we're so busy with life, and people say, "Well, it's not my thing, finance and math," or whatever, but you got to have a good working knowledge of what you got going on. So this is the new year. It's a good time to take some of those lessons that Tony just gave and put that plan into action. And what about folks that find themselves like this, Tony? That are in this category, the old you saying, "I'm going to pause my investments until things settle down." Saw a lot of email questions come in. The last three or four months of the last year of 2024, people saying, "Well, until the election happens, or this, that, or the other, I'm not going to pump in." Maybe you're still working. "I'm not going to continue to pump into my 401k until things settle down in case the market has a downturn." And to me, first of all, that's just crazy, right? Because there's a couple of reasons why you shouldn't do that. But if anything we've learned in the last five years, Tony, when the hell does anything settle down, right? There's always something- Tony Mauro: It's never settled. Speaker 1: ... going on, right? Tony Mauro: Yeah. I was just at an investment conference with a couple of colleagues over the weekend, and it was interesting that one of the assistants there, so this is an investment advisor's colleague, or assistant, excuse me, that actually said, and so I'll give you both sides of the political spectrum here for a second. She said that she was moving out of Massachusetts because there's too many liberals and she can't stand it. So one advisor on the other hand said he has a client that said they want to move to Portugal because of the current political situation, so both kind of sides of the fence there, but to your point, doesn't really matter who's president. We're not going to get into all of that. They don't really have direct control of your life. So to plan your life around something like that or something similar, I think, is crazy, especially when you're talking about your finances. Because I looked it up, and I shared this stat with them over the weekend, and I'll share it here, but people that want to try to time the market usually don't have good success. Who's going to say when to get back in? And then I always show them my old cost of timing since '03 to about '23, if you missed even the 60 best days in the S&P, I mean, your return is 93% lower than if you just stayed invested the whole time. And we've had a lot of weird stuff happen, if you think about it, since '02. Speaker 1: Since 2000, really. Tony Mauro: Yeah. Since 2000. You start naming off the big events, and yes, the market goes down at times and then it comes back. So I think by pausing, you or your advisor, I would challenge you. You're not going to beat the market. If anything, you're going to lag it, and then when you miss the best days, I think it's really going to cause you harm. Speaker 1: I mean, even just the basic principles, Tony, your dollar cost averaging, right? So yes, the market's going to dip down. But if you're still working, for example, not only are you not getting the company match because you've paused it, so you're losing money there, but you're also not buying whatever it is that you're set up in on the dips, right? So, yeah. I mean, it's scary, I understand that, but it's a bad strategy. There really is no positive spin on saying, "I'm just going to pause things until it settles down," because nothing ever really settles down. That's why you have a plan. That's why you have a strategy. Then you don't have to necessarily worry about things settling down. And that really feeds to our last one, Tony, which is the old you just says, "My parents didn't have a plan and it worked out for them. I don't have a plan. I'll just hope for the best," right? That's just silly too, because your parents probably had a wholly different set of circumstances than you do, first of all, and hope is not an option. Tony Mauro: I don't think hope's an option in today's world, you know? When our- Speaker 1: Not from a financial standpoint, no. Tony Mauro: Yeah. From a financial standpoint, for sure. Back when the parents, people worked for the same employer generally for 30, 40 years, many had pensions that they can't outlive. Those days are all gone now, and it's up to us. Can't depend on the government or anybody else to finance our retirement. And so I think if you don't have a plan, yeah. There's a chance that you could make it, but I think the risk is there that you may not have the kind of retirement that you thought you would've, and why not just plan? It's not painful. It just takes a little bit of work. Especially if you have an advisor, they're going to kind of guide you and tell you what you need to give them. And then if they're good, they're going to say, "Hey, look. We want to meet once, twice a year, we want to go over this, we want to make changes, so you'll always know where you're at." I wouldn't want to risk my retirement with no plan. I mean, if you do, who knows? Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. That's the whole point, right? You're kind of just playing with those things that you don't need to play with. I mean, in today's era, there's just really kind of no excuse for it, right? So get yourself a strategy put together. The days of thinking you have to be uber rich to have a financial advisor are long over, and most people are in better shape than they realize when they do sit down for an initial consultation with financial professionals. If you've done a modest job of being a responsible financial steward of your money, you're probably in better shape than you realize. I think a lot of people find themselves in that category. So do yourself a favor, get a plan, get a strategy, focus on the new year, new you financially, and reach out to Tony and his team at YourPlanningPros.com. That is YourPlanningPros.com. He's got 30 years of experience in the industry. He's a CPA, a CFP, and an EA, and a great resource for you to tap into. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you like using. It's Plan With The Tax Man with Tony Mauro, and again, you can find all that information at YourPlanningPros.com. Tony, my friend, thanks for hanging out and breaking it down as always. I will see you in a couple of weeks. Tony Mauro: All right. Talk soon. Speaker 1: We'll catch you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

Today, we're unveiling the 2025 Method to transform your money mindset. Whether you're overwhelmed by debt, stuck in a savings rut, or simply stressed about money, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help you think differently and achieve financial comfort.    Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1: Today we're going to tackle the money mindset transformation method. Hopefully to get us on the right path for thinking in 2025, some positive thoughts and some resolutions maybe, if you will, here on Plan With The Tax Man.   What's going on everybody? Welcome into the final episode of the 2024 calendar year of Tony and myself's podcast here. Plan With The Tax Man. Of course, Tony is the tax man, Tony Mauro. He is Des Moines professional alternative at Tax Doctor Inc., of course, he serves clients all over. So if you've got some questions, need some help, reach out to Tony and his team at Tax Doctor Inc., online at yourplanningpros.com. That's your planningpros.com. He's a CPA, a CFP and an EA of 30 plus years experience in the industry. So great resource for you to tap into.   And Tony, you and I were talking about trying to eat better and get healthy and so on and so forth. And it is that time of the year, right? The end of the year going into the new season where we all want to do some sort of resolution or mindset change. And so we thought it'd be a good idea to maybe talk about that from a money standpoint. How to take some of the negative thoughts that kind of permeate our brains and find a positive better way to spend those. And so I thought that'd be fun this last episode. How you doing?   Tony Mauro: I'm doing good. Coming off Christmas and yeah, everybody's thinking about the old New Year's resolution, so this is perfect timing.   Speaker 1: Do you consider yourself a glass half empty or glass half full kind of person?   Tony Mauro: I'm the glass half full for sure.   Speaker 1: Okay, good.   Tony Mauro: And I do spend some time every year just kind of going through what I want to do for the upcoming year, both my wife and I, even on a personal level, whether it's vacations or just stuff needed around the house to financial moves. It's a time of year to put them down and see what happens.   Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so if you've got any tips on how to change your mindset along the way and building new habits, well obviously it's a great time to share them. So what I'll do, Tony, is I'll give you kind of the negative thought that we tend to hear in the industry and then you give us maybe the more positive upbeat way of thinking about it, try to change that mindset. Okay?   Tony Mauro: Okay.   Speaker 1: All right. So we'll just jump around on my list here because Lord knows there's plenty of them. So let's start with a negative thought that's certainly been bothering people this past year with inflation being so high and the cost of living going up and credit card debt got a little out of control. People will say, "Hey, debt, it's ruining my life." They can't see past some of the charges they've ran up. What's a way to reframe those negative thoughts, if debt is ruining your life or you feel like it is?   Tony Mauro: You feel like it is, yeah. Well, and you hear that a lot and most of the time people say that because they look at their credit card statements because that type of debt can be ugly to start looking at. Certain types of debt really aren't as bad as people think. Mortgages are something most of us need. We can't buy our houses for cash. Student loans with low interest rates allow us to get further ahead and make more money with our educations. And so both of these generally are paying for assets that you can use in the future to hopefully help you increase your wealth and get to your goals. Now, the happy-   Speaker 1: It's an investment in yourself, right? Yeah.   Tony Mauro: It's an investment in yourself. If you do have the bad debt though, you need to work with somebody, even if it's bad, there are ways that you can tackle that bad debt. So eventually you're not going to be having that bad thought of it's ruining your life. You got to take action and do something about it.   Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. So looking at the other types of debt and saying, "Hey, these are an investment in me," that's a positive way of doing that. And maybe that flows right along with this one too, which is the negative thought is, well, because it's so expensive right now, I don't earn enough to save, let alone invest. I'd like to, right? I'd like to save more. I'd like to invest, but God, I'm just living paycheck to paycheck. I don't earn enough to do so. And that's a tough one, especially when we're younger, so when we're in our twenties or even thirties, but we've got to find a way to turn that negative positive.   Tony Mauro: You do. And really the easiest way is to start very small. Well, I should back up a minute. The easiest way is you need to work with somebody I think, to figure out what you've got coming in and what you've got going out every month and literally detail it out. Because there are some small, small cuts that we all can make on things we blow money on to at least divert into some savings. I mean, if it's 20, 30 bucks a month-   Speaker 1: Exactly.   Tony Mauro: ... or 50 bucks a month, it gets you on the road to saying, okay, I can do this. And for most of us, whether it's a pack of cigarettes, a case of beer or Starbucks, whatever, once you start itemizing some of that out, you're thinking, oh gosh, we spend a lot of money on that.   Speaker 1: Amazon orders, right?   Tony Mauro: Amazon's another one. And so I think you got to take that mindset of surely you can find a couple of bucks, especially if you sit down and analyze it. Because if you start young enough, even small amounts can add up to big numbers over 20, 30, 40 years.   Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well think about something, I don't know, let me go with something as simple as like Netflix. It's a $30 a month subscription. So do you really need it? How much do you actually watch it? Now, I'm not saying that budgets are fun, but if you find yourself in that negative thought, out of that, I can't put anything away, $30 a month. If you're younger, well even if you're a little bit older, that adds up. 30 times 12. And putting in that something that's growing a little money, well then that's even better. So that's how you get that way.   And actually I'll use that one to jump to the next one. I'm going to jump around on my list here, Tony. But budgets, right? People are like, oh, budgets suck. They're restrictive. I don't want to have to live that way. And you could look at this whether you're a pre-retiree, which is a lot of our demographic, or retiree or even a little bit younger, you've probably lived on a budget throughout every stage of your life, but for some reason, retirees, they hate this word. They feel like, oh, I've worked really hard. I want to be able to enjoy myself in retirement. A budget doesn't mean necessarily that you can't enjoy yourself.   Tony Mauro: That's right. And everybody thinks that. If I create a budget and actually detail it out, that I can't go over this budget. That is so far from the-   Speaker 1: It's restrictive.   Tony Mauro: ... truth.   Speaker 1: I don't want to have to live on a plan. But you've always lived on a plan.   Tony Mauro: Whether you wrote it down or not, you've always had a plan. It may have been a bad plan, but if you ask anybody, in my opinion, what they.... They can kind of give you, "Well, I take in this much roughly, and I spend this much, and I don't know what I spend it on, but I know I do." That's kind of a half budget there. But if you can detail it out, all it is it points out things to help you make decisions. Do I still want to keep spending money on that or maybe I don't and want to divert it somewhere else? I have a budget. I mean, if you're really ultra into it, you need to use some financial software, in other words, Quicken, Mint, or some other ones, and have every transaction that comes in your household, every transaction goes out, detailed out in a little mini P&L or monthly saving or earning and spending report, so you can see.   For us, where we tend to spend a lot of money for example, is dining out. And sometimes we look at our thing and say, "Well, we spent a lot of money last month dining out, that's kind of over where we want to be. Maybe let's try to fix that."   Speaker 1: Reigning that in a little bit.   Tony Mauro: That's all budget is, is just reigning it in.   Speaker 1: Take that negative thought of it being restrictive and switch it to a budget is a tool for freedom. It gives me the freedom to go out to dinner, to your point you just made, because I know what my limits are. So we can go out and have ourselves a good time, but it also keeps me from getting myself into trouble. So again, taking the negative thoughts and reframing them in a positive manner. And look, you can play word association games if you want. A lot of people, instead of calling it a budget, they call it a spending plan, right? It's like, okay, fine, call it whatever you want. Call it hopscotch for all I care. But just realize that it can be a useful tool so that you don't get yourself into bad shape.   Okay, good. Good stuff. Let's see, what else could we talk about? Let's jump around different things. Taxes. So one of your favorite topics. So look, the negative thought is taxes suck. They're complicated, right? I don't get it. They eat up my income. They're taking so much of my money, right? Yes, it's hard to argue this one, Tony. It's frustrating, but how can we be a little bit more positive, at least as far as dealing with the fact that we don't have a whole lot of choice. We have to play this game.   Tony Mauro: You have to play the game. And taxes, you're exactly right, they're complicated. They are one of our biggest expenses. However, as bad, and sometimes I get on the government and everything, it's not like the old English where they just come around and say, pay us X, like to a king type of thing. They give us all kinds of laws that a lot of times, especially if you're trying to do things on your own, you don't take advantage of. Because there is some opportunities that they give you to save for retirement. They give you opportunities for deductions if you're out spending on a new house with a mortgage, student loan interest, some of that stuff we all talked about with the debt. So you've got to be able to take advantage of some of that because that is tax efficient investing and also spending. So while it's a bad thing, you got to use it to whatever laws are on the books at the time to the best of your advantage and to try to grow your wealth using that part of the game.   Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.   Tony Mauro: It's part of it.   Speaker 1: And right along with that is the structure of the system that we have is investing. The negative thought being, man investing is so risky, it's so complicated. Same kind of feeling. A lot of people are like, I want to do it, but I don't understand it enough or it intimidates me. So we've got to be able to be positive because it's still a great way for you to grow your wealth and obviously outpace inflation. So what's the positive spin?   Tony Mauro: I think the positive spin on that is your best bet is to work with an advisor of some kind so that they can explain how over the long term, it reduces your risk over time, especially with diversification.   Speaker 1: With a strategy, right?   Tony Mauro: With a good strategy. It's one of the only ways you're going to be able to grow your wealth for the future. There are other ways. You can have your own business, you can get into rentals. There's all kinds of ways to make money, but you got to be able to save some of that money for the future. And I think that's where some people get a little intimidated, especially with the 24/7 information we have coming at us all the time. I mean, whether it's TV, internet, everything else, it's really not that complicated, especially if you have a long-term goal.   Speaker 1: I was going to say, the key I think I took from you there was the long-term approach. If you've got a straightforward long-term approach, you don't have to be trying to day-trade or be some sort of Wall Street whiz kid, but a simple longterm approach can significantly reduce the risk concerns that you have. Now, you're still going to have money at risk. That's the point. So that you can kind of grow and outpace inflation. But I think it doesn't have to be nearly as intimidating as many of us initially make it out to be. My wife says the same thing. She's like, "Oh, I don't want to mess with that stuff. It just scares me too much." So I started showing her some simpler things and she's like, "Oh, this is not so bad." So it's just a matter of coaching.   Tony Mauro: Training. It is. And really with today's, especially in the funds area, mutual funds, they make it pretty easy, and they have great portfolios, many of them, and make it very easy for a small investor to just get started and it's pretty set it and forget it. You got to have a plan in place, but you definitely want to keep a long-term approach. And I wouldn't let that get you too down about it.   Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure. All right, well I'm going to do one last one, negative thought. I'm going to combine two because they kind of work together to me. But the negative thought people have is just around money in general. I'm terrible with it. It's stressful. I make bad decisions with it. Whatever. Whatever you kind of find yourself feeling about money. Like, "This thing, I stink at it. It just stresses me out." Well, there's a simple way to think, you've got to change your mindset about money because it's obviously something that we have to use in society. So what's the positive thought about it?   Tony Mauro: I think the most positive thought that I always think about, and I tell my son this too, everybody wants to achieve whatever level of wealth that they can. But it really just is a tool, I call it a tool to use for experiences that I want to do while I'm on this planet and give me the time that I can go out and do them while I still have-   Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a tool. Exactly.   Tony Mauro: ... some decent health.   Speaker 1: It's no different than a hammer. If you're trying to build a house, you need a hammer. If you're trying to build a life, you need money. It's a tool.   Tony Mauro: It's a tool. I mean, it would be great if we all could do whatever we want and there was no money and we just did whatever we wanted and we could do it. Well, that's not the way the world works.   Speaker 1: You just showed up at Disney World and they let you go around and do whatever you want. Unfortunately, somebody has to pay for the maintenance, right?   Tony Mauro: Somebody has to pay for all that. So it shouldn't be stressful for you. It shouldn't be the root of your problems. But I think this is where some of the stuff we've talked about in the past and even today, about staying on track and having a plan and having someone help you so that you don't feel stressed out about this money stuff because it really shouldn't be stressing you out.   Speaker 1: Well, as we go into the new year, making resolutions is something we all do. So start trying to be more positive, I think, in not just necessarily making a resolution or a wish, because is it a reality if you don't act on it? Maybe write some things down. That goes a long way for people, have success doing that. Maybe write down some goals that you want to attain and then take some action steps on how to do that. And maybe for many people, the money side of things is just finally working with someone who can shine the light on the stuff that we're just not used to doing day in and day out because we're so busy living our lives. But we do need that tool, that tool called money.   So get yourself on the calendar, reach out to Tony and his team at yourplanningpros.com. Get some time to talk with them in the New Year at yourplanningpros.com. And don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify or YouTube, whatever platform you like listening to podcasts on, and that way you catch new episodes when they come out. Tony, thanks for hanging out my friend. Have a great New Year and I'll see you in the New Year.   Tony Mauro: We'll see you in the New Year and everybody else have a great New Year as well. Stay safe.   Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. We'll catch you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man with Tony Mauro from Tax Doctor Inc.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

The holiday season is here, and while you're stuffing stockings for your loved ones, don't forget to stuff your own financial stocking with tips that can bring you closer to a secure retirement. Today, we're unwrapping 10 bite-sized, actionable ideas to help you save smarter, invest better, and plan for the future you deserve.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1: The holiday season is upon us. And while you're stuffing stockings for your loved ones, don't forget to stuff your own financial stocking with hopefully some tips that can bring you closer to a secure retirement. Today on Plan With The Tax Man, let's look at some financial freedom and some best stocking stuffers in 2024.   Hey everybody, welcome in to the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with Tony Mauro and myself as we talk investing, finance, retirement. We thought we'd have a little fun here. As this is our early December episode, we're going to unwrap a few action items to hopefully help you be a little bit better on your way towards retirement with Tony and just have a little fun with this concept since it's that time of the year. What's going on, my friend? How are you?   Speaker 2: I'm doing good. Just off of Thanksgiving and a quick vacation. So although it's getting cold here, it's the holidays, so. My favorite time of year.   Speaker 1: It is what it is. I mean, it's that time of the year and it comes fast and furious too. It's like soon as one starts, it just, well, snowballs, no pun intended, but it just snowballs its way through to the end of the year. But anyway, well, I'm glad you're doing well. Hopefully our listeners are also. And so let's have a little fun here. Why we might want some of these things as financial stocking stuffers, okay? Is it a good idea as a stocking stuffer? Is it a bad idea? That kind of thing. Have a little fun with it, wherever you want to take it.   Speaker 2: All right.   Speaker 1: All right, so I'll give you the item. You tell us what you think. All right, so the first one, maxing out your retirement contributions. Is this something you'd like to have in your stocking, is to max those out?   Speaker 2: I would say definitely, yes. And for those of the people listening that are in the Iowa area, I actually brought the newspaper article in to share with my staff and it was an article about people that are mostly in the central Iowa area just living on social security. And it's a sad article and I'd encourage people to read it, but the point of it was you don't want to end up just living off social security, which means that, and I tell people this literally like a broken record every tax season, you need to increase your retirement contributions to whatever you're doing. And if you haven't started, you need to start because nobody's going to be there to take care of you and social security, while it's a safety net, it's not a very good existence. And so I would definitely say that's number one on my list.   Speaker 1: Yeah, max it out. Especially as we get to 50. 50 plus, you get those catch up contribution stages, making more money than ever hopefully, kids are off the payroll hopefully. So max those jokers out. Certainly a good idea for a stocking stuffer. All right, diversifying your investments. If somebody says, "Hey, Tony, for Christmas this year, I'm going to help you diversify your investments." That sounds like a pretty good stocking stuffer.   Speaker 2: Absolutely. It goes right along with number one that you definitely don't want to have too much of your investments, of course, concentrated in one area. The old adage, and you still hear some people having it where I've got all my 401(k) wrapped up in my own company's stock. That's probably not the best, that's an extreme example. But I do think you need to be diversified. This is where an advisor can certainly help you and provide some value to make sure you're adequately diversified so that you've always got something in your portfolio that might be doing well when other sectors may not be.   Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And to kind of have fun and play on the holiday spirit here, again, you said you want a qualified professional, an advisor to help you. Yes, that is the preferred thing. Not just having Cousin Eddie from the Vacation movies. You don't want Cousin Eddie helping you diversify.   Speaker 2: We don't want Cousin Eddie. No, no.   Speaker 1: We don't want that. We want a qualified like Tony helping us. Same with all of these. So what about reviewing our social security strategy? So good time to think about that and say, "Hey, you know what? For Christmas, I want to make sure my social security strategy is sound as a pound."   Speaker 2: And of course all of these coming around Christmas, it's kind of coming into the new year where people start to think about this. But social security strategy and when to take it, that's always a big question on people's minds as they approach 50 and beyond. And there's some nice calculators that we have that can help you and that we can discuss that on what's the best optimization strategy for you because it's different for everybody. Yes, social security, you can take it early at 62 and then you've got a full retirement age and then of course the latest. But depending on your situation and longevity and all kinds of other things, I think it's important to review that. And believe it or not, social security administration does make it relatively easy to go out and get your report online. And if you can't get it, we'll help you get it, but I do think that's very important.   Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point for sure. And speaking of optimization, our next one is optimizing tax efficiency. Well, as a CPA, I know you're all on board for that one.   Speaker 2: I am. This is my big pet peeve, because I talked to a lot of people about yes, you might be working with an advisor or maybe you're not, but are you planning with a tax efficiency slant or making sure you optimize or reduce, let's put it should be, taxes because it's usually the biggest thing in our whole life is paying these taxes, whether it's now or deferred. And you really have to try to maximize your tax savings all throughout the investment life. So that's the one we hit on, is that and everything we talk about.   Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, tax efficiency is going to go a long way. I mean, none of us want to pay taxes. We don't like the... We get taxed to death as it is, but the rules are the rules, so we have to adhere and follow along. But you can be efficient and hopefully pay as little as legally possible.   Speaker 2: Exactly, you got to use them to your advantage.   Speaker 1: That's right.   Speaker 2: Yep.   Speaker 1: Play the game as best you can.   Speaker 2: Best you can, yeah.   Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Okay, so another stocking stuffer idea, Tony, would it be a good thing to boost that emergency fund?   Speaker 2: I would definitely say yes. Another thing we talk about with every client that we work with is it's amazing how many people don't have emergency funds and it's never a bad idea to boost it to a level where between you and your advisor agree upon. It's a little different for everybody, the old adage three to six months of income, but it could be different for different things. But boy, it's essential to have that at least until you're at retirement age and then you can back it down some, but it's not a bad idea to even have it in the wealth distribution stage just for those things that pop up. So we do like to go over that. We do like to make sure that people, even if it's just a few bucks every month to get that boosted every year.   Speaker 1: Got you, okay. I'm going to throw a bonus one or two in here at you as well, Tony, catch you off guard a little bit. Not that you don't talk about this enough stuff, you'll be just fine, but based on what you were kind of talking about right there, it made me think about something else. Should we, at the end of the year, we're thinking this is our early December, we're talking stocking stuffers. What about rebalancing our portfolio? Is it a good idea calendar wise, maybe every December or every January to just kind of take a look at things and make sure we're rebalanced properly if we don't have someone like yourself doing it for us?   Speaker 2: I definitely think it is. If you are working on it on your own, you definitely want to go in and rebalance toward the end of the year right after the first to make sure that you're continuing with your original investment philosophy. And because what happens is is if you've got say 10 different investments over 10 different sectors, some of those sectors are going to do very well during the year and some are going to do worse.   Speaker 1: And the market's done great, the last year.   Speaker 2: Yeah, market's done great.   Speaker 1: But you may have a couple of dogs in there.   Speaker 2: Yeah, and so what you want to try to do is rebalance so that two to three years go by and all of a sudden, let's say for example, your growth sector is now 75, 80% of your portfolio, that might be out of balance with what you originally wanted to have in the overall strategy. And so by doing that, you also in essence kind of sell high and buy low, because you're going to rebalance and you're going to keep that balance so that when sectors that were doing poorly start to perform, you're adequately invested in those. So I do think that's a very, very good idea.   Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's been doing really well. The market has to give and take. The market rebalances, if you think about it, that concept of you want to rebalance your own portfolio, well, the market has to rebalance itself and we're probably going to see some volatility coming into the new year with new changes and things happening and administration changes. And I think ultimately, I think if you look at the statistics, Tony, just about every presidency, the market tends to go up, but there is going to be some shakes along the way. That's what it does. It's par for the course.   So rebalancing is a good way, especially at the end of a good run like we're seeing right now to maybe make sure you're still aligned with your risk tolerance and all those good things. So good conversation piece to have. Let's do two more and then we'll wrap it up this week, Tony. How about considering Roth conversions to reduce future taxes, especially now that we may see, we don't know yet, we'll see probably in the first a hundred days, but we may see the current tax cuts and jobs acts extended moving past '25, which it was set to expire on. So that could be a good stocking idea.   Speaker 2: It could be a real good stocking idea. I'm big on the Roth conversions to reduce future taxes. Especially what we do is basically fill up the same tax bracket of clients in, convert some tax deferred to tax-free, which is the Roth conversion, and then try to do that every year and not bump them into the next tax bracket where they're paying more taxes. But I agree, depending on what happens, whether these things are extended beyond '25 or not, it could make more sense than ever to maybe start doing that depending on the news that comes out.   Speaker 1: Because if they don't make a change, your window's pretty limited. You've got basically just a year left to do some conversions and you want to do that smartly so that you're not bumping tax brackets. But if they extend it, well now you can get back to that Roth-ing over time conversation.   Speaker 2: Exactly. And if they don't extend, going back to that's the whole optimizing for tax efficiency is making sure that you're getting enough into the tax-free bucket, but doing it wisely and not needlessly overpaying on taxes, it's not going to ruin you. But why pay more in taxes than we need to?   Speaker 1: And so many people aren't clear on how the steps work. You want to fill up the steps before you go to the next bracket.   Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly. So they don't understand. They forget about the progressiveness of the tax rates, where that comes into play and when we can show them that they can, if we only fill up this bracket, then we can save quite a bit of taxes and trying to do it all at once.   Speaker 1: If you're in the 22% tax bracket, someone's like, well, every dime I make is taxed at 22% and that's not accurate.   Speaker 2: True. Yeah, it's not accurate. And as soon as you go a dime over the limit, now everything beyond that limit is 24.   Speaker 1: Beyond that limit, exactly. So even if you did pop a bracket, it may not be the worst thing. It just depends on how much. So again, it's about filling up the brackets and doing it properly. So that's where again, you want to work with a qualified professional to help you with that stuff because it can get a little tricky. And the IRS make things tricky, no. So yeah, definitely work with someone like Tony's, a CPA and a CFP. And that brings me to my last one, which is just schedule a conversation. So for a stocking stuffer, it's a good stocking stuffer, schedule an annual financial checkup, or maybe even a first time checkup, Tony, with a qualified pro to see where you're at.   Speaker 2: I agree. And of course I have a skin in the game because what we do for a living, but obviously if you have a financial professional already, hopefully they've reached out to you or you're at least getting an annual meeting out of that, because you do need a financial checkup to see how things have gone throughout the year for you. And even if you're on your own, a lot of people will provide free financial checkups or at a small fee and you can bring them in your portfolio and everything else you've got going. And they can sit and tell you, number one, I mean, returns and diversification, some of this other stuff we've talked about, but they may hit on some things in a plan that you haven't thought about. We don't have a lot of time to talk about today, whether it be insurance, long-term care, social security planning, some things like that. Maybe a legacy and estate planning as well. So it's definitely worth at least getting an unbiased opinion.   Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And so certainly would be a good stocking stuffer for yourself to say, "Hey, I'm going to get off my duff and I'm going to go talk with a qualified professional and see what's going on, see where I'm at." Maybe it's a second opinion on a plan you got a couple of years ago. Maybe it's a first opinion, or maybe it's just an annual checkup with your advisor, but you haven't talked to him for a little bit and you're thinking, "I want to make sure things are all set up. My ducks are all in a row, so to speak." So that's our podcast this week. So hopefully you guys had a little fun and enjoyed the conversation with Tony and I as usual to try to highlight some useful nuggets of information when it comes to getting ready for retirement.   And as always, if you need some help, reach out to Tony and his team at yourplanningpros.com. That's yourplanningpros.com or call him at (844) 707-7381. We'll have that information in the show description links as well and you can check all that good stuff out. Tony, my friend, thanks for hanging out. I always appreciate you and I guess we'll talk right after Christmas, so I'll say Merry Christmas to you.   Speaker 2: Yeah, Merry Christmas to you and anybody listening. Have a great holidays.   Speaker 1: Absolutely. And we'll see you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man. Don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify or whatever app you like using. Just type in Plan With The Tax Man.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.  

It's hard to believe that election season is over and Thanksgiving is almost here! This week on Plan with the Tax Man, we're diving into the future of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act now that the election results are in. Join us as we explore what changes could be on the horizon and what to expect moving forward.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:    Speaker 1: This week on Plan With The Tax Man, let's talk about the future of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, the TCJA now that we know the results of the election. So let's get into what could be on the horizon in the coming years here this week on Plan With The Tax Man. Welcome into the podcast everybody. Thanks for hanging out with Tony Mauro and myself. Tony of course, a CPA, CFP, and EA with 30 plus years in the industry helping folks get to and through retirement. And he's at the Tax Doctor, Inc. You can find them online at yourplanningpros.com. That's yourplanningpros.com. And Tony, happy Thanksgiving, my friend. We are taping this a little before and dropping this podcast just a few days before Thanksgiving. So happy Turkey Bird Day to you, my friend.   Tony Mauro: Yeah, same to you and everybody else.   Speaker 1: Absolutely.   Tony Mauro: It's getting that time of year.   Speaker 1: Absolutely. Exactly.   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: So hope everybody enjoys the holiday and hopefully we're just going to do a little speculation here this week, Tony. We know now, obviously President Trump is the, Trump President-elect, right, coming in here in January. And so one of the big questions and one of the big things I think that has people, especially in our demographic and the people that you serve and your clientele is what that might mean for the future of tax cuts. Right. So all through the Biden administration, we kind of wondered were they going to make any tax cuts changes or tax rate changes or anything. They never did. And then of course the big kind of question was, well, if Harris wins, will we see the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act go ahead and expire at the end of 25 like it's supposed to, or would we see a new tax program?   Well, now that we know Trump is coming back in, I think it's probably a safe assumption to say that he's going to try to either extend the TCJA or maybe even make it permanent. Right. So there's conversation around that. So I thought we could talk a little bit about what that might mean for retirees, pre-retirees, and just from a planning and thought kind of process should that happen.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. And I think now that hopefully everybody's emotions are calming down a little bit, depending on,-   Speaker 1: We hope.   Tony Mauro: Won or lost.   Speaker 1: We hope. Right.   Tony Mauro: Half of everybody is mad and half of everybody is happy. And I think the big thing with all of this is, and I've been putting it out in our newsletter since the election is even though it may not have gone your way, life is not going to change all that much for you. I mean, you need to be aware of some of these things and how it impacts you and how to use it to your best benefit. Because the end of the day, we go back to doing what we do and trying to make the best of what we've got and so,-   Speaker 1: Right. And we know that fiscally our country's in really bad shape and whatever changes they're going to be working on is not going to happen overnight. It is going to take a little time. They're going to break some eggs along the way. It's not going to be a totally smooth process. I mean, we're in pretty bad shape, Tony fiscally. Right. So it's going to take a lot of work to kind of right the ship. And obviously the voters voted for hoping that prices come down, getting a better grip on the economy. That was one of the biggest poll movers, I suppose, in that conversation. So with that in mind, let's talk a little bit about that TCJA standpoint. If again, this is if, but since they're going to have the House and the Senate, it appears there's a likelihood that they're going to get this passed through at least if nothing else, an extension. Let's just start there. That's good from the fact that tax rates are historically low, right, for the common everyday working American tax rates are historically low. So that's a good place to start.   Tony Mauro: It's a good place to start. Yeah. And from a taxpayer standpoint, who doesn't like low taxes?   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: And me included. And so that's beneficial. Now the big picture, like you say, our financial situation as a country, we already know, everybody knows that Congress tends to spend way more than they take in. And that,-   Speaker 1: Sure.   Tony Mauro: I just read an article the other day about the TCJA, that if they extend it, it could, it could add another 2.6 trillion to the deficit over the next 10 years.   Speaker 1: Correct.   Tony Mauro: Which from a fiscal standpoint, it's like, ooh boy, we're already in bad shape. This is going to make it worse but,-   Speaker 1: Well, okay, so let's kind of talk about that. Let's break that down a little bit for a second. So if you think about it, the reason they put it in the way they did, right, for the number of years, what was it, seven years I think when they put it in?   Tony Mauro: Yeah, seven years.   Speaker 1: Was because they said they were worried about it ballooning the deficit. Well, obviously the deficit's gotten out of control anyway, so,-   Tony Mauro: It is.   Speaker 1: Keeping the TCJA is I think it's, we talk often, Tony about having a three-legged stool for retirement. Right. And I think that's what the leaders are going to have to do from a government standpoint. One is going to be promoting job growth and keeping tax rates low for paying Americans. So again, maybe extending the TCJA, but to your point, it could add to the deficit. So spending has to get under control. I think that's the second piece. Like the conversation, don't like the conversation, but the idea of this department of government efficiency that's being tossed around out there and cutting some of this incredibly wasteful spending that we do, and let's be honest, we waste a lot of money, could make a huge impact and maybe offset some of that cost of the TCJA plus the tariff conversation. Right.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. I think all that is part of what I feel like are,-   Speaker 1: The big picture, right?   Tony Mauro: Policy decisions, yeah, that has to be made by this and future administrations and try to work towards figuring this out to.   Speaker 1: Right. Because it's $36 trillion. You can't fix it with just one thing. Right.   Tony Mauro: No, you cannot.   Speaker 1: So that in mind, that in mind about the ballooning, just from that standpoint, we get that as far as a bigger picture that they have to work on. But what does it mean for everyday Americans? Well, I think one of the places, Tony, besides just having low tax rates, which is good, and the narrower brackets versus going back to the wider is the conversation about, well now it gives you more time to Roth over time. Right. Because if people were talking about doing Roth conversions at these historic low tax rates, well you only had until the end of 2025 to get them done. So your window was narrowing. If again, if they extend the TCJA, that could make planning a lot easier for you for your clients if they do need to do Roth conversions over time.   Tony Mauro: Absolutely. And we're looking at it from that standpoint now that it's over, that we're going to be harping on our clients, assuming they extend this, is to take advantage of this because we don't know when they're going to either reverse it. And I always liked that word, you mentioned it earlier, permanent. Of course, Congress changes stuff.   Speaker 1: Right. Nothing's ever permanent. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Never really permanent, but it's harder to change when it's permanent rather than just let it expire. So it's important to take, like I say, it doesn't matter who's in office, we have to take advantage of what they are allowing us to do or giving us or legally.   Speaker 1: Sure.   Tony Mauro: And making sure that from a financial planning standpoint, it helps all of us if on these Roth conversions and whatnot, because I'm a big fan of them, is to set yourself up for a good retirement, for that end game. So I think that's extremely important.   Speaker 1: Yeah. And it does give you guys a lot more of a window to plan, again, it's the devil that you know. Right. So if we know the tax rates, let's just, we're working off an assumption, but think about when you sit down with a financial professional, they're putting information into the software. They're still working off of assumptions, right, assuming that you don't lose your job or assuming this, this or this and that you can run scenarios for social security at this amount, plus you could run social security projections at the lower amount should they not fix that. Right.   So a lot of what you guys do is assumptions, right? You can put some good educated guesses and you can put stuff in the software and get a good picture, but life changes, things happen. So let's just again, run the assumption that the TCJA gets at least extended through four more years. Let's just say if nothing else through Trump's presidency. Well then that gives you four years of planning strategy around some things to try to get done while we are again in these historic low tax rates. And that can be very valuable.   Tony Mauro: I think so. Yeah. And going to the other side of it a little bit,-   Speaker 1: Sure.   Tony Mauro: Let's say they let them sunset.   Speaker 1: Okay.   Tony Mauro: Now, America's tax bill increases by 2.6 trillion over the next decade, which will help cut into the deficit, but it's going to impact consumption and growth and everything else because if everybody's paying more taxes, then they're going to stop spending, which poses problems from,-   Speaker 1: The economy standpoint. Right.   Tony Mauro: From the economy standpoint.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: And so it really is a tough job to try to balance all this.   Speaker 1: Oh, for sure.   Tony Mauro: And try to make it work.   Speaker 1: And we're not even talking about the conversation that they're having as far as maybe lowering corporate tax rates even a bit more. So under Trump's first presidency, he brought it down to where it's currently at, at the 21, I think it's 21%,-   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: For corporate tax. That brought a lot of business back to the country. Right. A lot of companies, I mean, think about the Apple conversation. Apple brought $250 billion back in when that happened. By lowering that to 15, yes, there's the worry of ballooning the deficit, but again, the idea is to spurn on job growth and economic growth. Then again, coupling that with tariffs on certain things, which again, the tariffs he put in place, the Biden administration, they left them in place. So obviously they were working in that regard. So again, I think it's one of these pieces where it's going to take a while for us to see the end results of this, but I think we can, it feels optimistic that we could make a dent, right, in this massive debt by doing some of these things and also pull the country a bit forward.   Now, who knows, there's a long way to go, right, Tony, and of course the big key, the first thing is going to be the energy dependency. And that's of course, that's one of Trump's big things, is on day one he's going to get the drill baby drill going again. Right. And so people think about that. If we start getting more energy independent right from day one that he takes office, we're not going to feel that in the streets for a little while. Right. Transportation costs and stuff like that, they'll come down, which will bring groceries down eventually, but it will take a few months.   Tony Mauro: It's going to take a little while. Yeah. I mean, nothing they're going to do, like you said before, is going to have an immediate impact. I think for most of us, you want to see, like you said, country moving potentially in the right direction. Of course, everybody's got their own opinion on what that direction is, but,-   Speaker 1: At least fiscally anyway, right?   Tony Mauro: Yeah. Yeah. Fiscally, I think we all can agree that nobody likes to see this kind of deficit and whatnot and constant different administrations continuing to,-   Speaker 1: Yeah, add to it.   Tony Mauro: Yeah, add to it, not do much about it. Then we've got all these problems on the side that nobody really seems to tackle until it's really at the last minute.   Speaker 1: Because we're really mortgaging, not necessarily you and I, Tony, our future, but we're certainly mortgaging our grandkids future,-   Tony Mauro: Absolutely.   Speaker 1: At $36 trillion and climbing. Somebody's paying this bill somewhere at some point. And we think back to the deficits we've had before, and we kind of took care of that into the Clinton administration. And I was talking with, we talked about this before, I was talking with former US comptroller, David Walker, who was part of that, and he's like, "Bill Clinton was the last fiscally responsible president we had." That says something. Not from a party standpoint, but from the fact that we've had multiple administrations since Bill Clinton and none of them have been fiscally responsible. So we've got to get back there. And yes, Trump was already president and they weren't necessarily fiscally responsible. So hopefully he's learned as well. And we try to get in that regard because think about again, what you guys do. If you are trying to help somebody plan for retirement and they come in and you've got the X's and O's, the exact number, what's happening with their income and they're not being fiscally responsible, their retirement strategy is not going to work.   Tony Mauro: Not going to work. We're the ones that have to break that to them and try to figure out some options to help them try to make something work.   Speaker 1: And they have to make changes. Right. Your options are spend less, right?   Tony Mauro: Yep. Yeah.   Speaker 1: Save more. So there's only certain things you can do, and that's where we're at as a country as well.   Tony Mauro: I think it is. And I think you go to the countryside and say, well, okay, you can tell the politicians to spend less if you can get them to do that. But then I think they tend to divert things to other things that they want to do rather than spending less. But I think where they really fall down is, and sometimes it's the tough decision when we're talking to our clients where you have to save more is sometimes they may have to say, look, guys and gals or country, we've got to raise taxes or we got to come up with some ways to make some money somehow, and this is what we've come up with. And nobody likes to hear that.   Speaker 1: Oh, for sure. I mean, I got a feeling that they're going to take a look at this and while we might extend the TCJA, they do want to make some changes. The SALT tax, there's some changes there. They're talking about putting itemization back in, which could be very helpful for citizens into their tax planning. But we could be looking at a slight brazen Medicare tax. Right. So that may be necessary as well in order to help fund that whole situation. So you're not going to make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.   Tony Mauro: That's right. That's right. And we've got all kinds of issues. I think, like you say, social security is one of them. Coming down the pike that's going to get more and more attention as we get closer to those deadlines and yeah, they're got to make some tough decisions. And sometimes they're going to be a little bit unpopular, but I think they probably could do a better job of at least when they do come up with some things, conveying it to the American people a little better.   Speaker 1: Well, the TCJA is going to be a big focal point. We'll see how that goes. Probably within the first 100 days we might see something there. We may not. Right. Because it doesn't expire until the end of 25, but obviously that's starting next year. So I got a feeling it's going to be early on the docket, so it could be something that happens in the first 100 days. And again, we're just speculating, spitballing a little bit here this week on the podcast. So we'll certainly keep an eye on it Tony. As the administration starts and executive orders start to fly, we'll start to kind of see how these things affect not just the market, but other pieces. And when you think about the market standpoint, it obviously reacted very favorably to the election. It slowed a little bit, but I think it seems to be fairly positive for now.   Tony Mauro: I think so for now is right. I think yeah, that election euphoria has kind of subsided a bit, but nevertheless, we're still chugging along. The economy even with higher prices and whatnot is doing pretty well. I think it'll help if rates come down and,-   Speaker 1: Yeah, our unemployment numbers have been climbing obviously, and there was some fudgery there, so I think we've got a little bit more unemployment than we hoped for, but we'll see as the year winds down. I know there's some companies out there laying off and hopefully they'll be able to, and again, I think that's the idea behind some of the job growth. Right. Keeping the tax rates low will help spurn on the job market. So it's a fine line. It really is incredibly complex when you start to think about it. And it's the same thing with what you guys do, helping people plan for retirement.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. And I've only been to Washington DC a couple of times both on business and got a chance to get in front of our Iowa Congress people, and it's fascinating to see how, we all complain about them, but how our government, how massive it is and how it does seem to work with all of its problems, we plot along and it's just an incredible beast.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: You have to try to get things done and make decisions.   Speaker 1: It really is. Yeah. And some would say maybe a little too big, so,-   Tony Mauro: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe.   Speaker 1: Too big a government is not a good thing. So hopefully we'll see some of the reduction in there. And that could help. And again, this is going to be like a three-legged kind of milking stool, same kind of idea. They're going to have to do multiple moving parts to get us in a better space, but we'll keep an eye on things. We'll talk about things here on the podcast and try to shed some light on them. But at the end of the day, you really, as Tony said, to start this whole thing off, you have to kind of build and structure a plan, Tony, that's going to weather whatever administration and whatever happens to come down the pike because we don't have a lot of control.   Yes, we used our voice to vote. Obviously that was very resounding this year for Republicans. They won all three. It appears as well as the majority vote, the popular vote. So we'll see, right? I mean, but we can do that job there. But at the end of the day, you still want to strategize and have a plan that kind of deals with the ups and downs of life because life will keep trucking along.   Tony Mauro: You do. I would say after the first year, my advice would be to get with your advisor or find one and have them explain some of this to you and how it could affect you individually, whether it's on taxes or how it's going to affect your financial life.   Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yep. So if you need some help, reach out to Tony and his team at Tax Doctor, Inc. Again, he's been helping families for 30 plus years. He's a CPA, a certified financial planner and an EA. So great resource for you to tap into. Just give them a jingle or reach out to them online. We'll have all the links in the show notes here for you to check out. But you can go to yourplanningpros.com to get started. That's yourplanningpros.com to get started. And again, we'll have that information in the show descriptions of the podcast. And don't forget to subscribe to us if you would be so kind on Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you like using. If you enjoy the content and find it useful, you can also share that with others who might benefit from the messages as well. And we'll see you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man. Happy Thanksgiving once again to everybody out there and Tony, you as well, my friend.   Tony Mauro: All right, we'll see you next time.   Speaker 1: We'll see you in December here on Plan With The Tax Man.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

You wouldn't necessarily expect Mike Tyson, Shaquille O'Neal, or Lindsay Lohan to dispense valuable insights about financial planning matters. In fact, you'd probably expect the opposite. But with a little bit of creativity, we can get some financial planning pearls of wisdom from even the most unlikely of sources.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:    Speaker 1: This week on Plan With the Tax Man, we're going to talk about unlikely financial wisdom you wouldn't expect from the likes of Mike Tyson or Shaquille O'Neal or even Lindsay Lohan. So let's find out what we're talking about this week here on Plan with the Tax Man with Tony Mauro.   What's going on everybody? Thanks for tuning into the podcast. We're dropping this about a week after the election, and we taped it ahead of the time, Tony, just in case the world was goofy. Plus you went out of town, so you were smart.   Tony Mauro: Yes.   Speaker 1: You ran away during the week of the election. You did your voting prior to, so very cool. And then you got out for a little trip and just tuned out the noise. I bet that was genius. I'm jealous. How you doing, my friend? You doing all right?   Tony Mauro: I'm doing well, yeah. Well rested and yes, I didn't plan the vacation like that back when I planned it, but it kind of worked out.   Speaker 1: It kind of worked out. Yeah. So since you're catching this after the election, but we're taping it beforehand because Tony is leaving, as I just mentioned, that we don't have a conversation for that. So, we'll probably save that for the next podcast to talk about what's going on in the world. So for now, we thought we would do one that was simple and easy and just do some unlikely financial wisdom with some characters we might not have expected financial advice from.   And look, they weren't saying these quotes to be financial advice, but with a little bit of creativity, I think Tony and I can turn those into some. So, let's start with a child actress who had some trouble as a teen, I guess, or a young adult or whatever, got herself into quite a bit of trouble and very scandalous kind of character in the Hollywood scene. And that was Lindsay Lohan, right? So, wound up making some movies when she was younger. Then she wound up getting into some trouble and kind of being very polarizing and so on and so forth.   Here's a quote, and it's a great quote, and it's especially when someone who's struggling with whatever they're struggling with in life, Tony. She said, "I'm my own worst enemy, and I know that." And that's key to fixing whatever problem you have in your life, be it your Hollywood career or your finances. If you know you're your own worst enemy, it can really help you not make more mistakes by maybe getting involved with someone like yourself who can help you battle yourself, if you will.   Tony Mauro: I agree. And with Lindsay Lohan, I'm sure... Well, I think it's a profound statement by her because obviously I don't really follow her much other than what I used to see when she was in trouble, but obviously she must have found some wisdom to make a statement like that, to at least recognize that she had some issues. And hopefully, I think she's got them cleaned up now. I don't know. But in relation to financial planning, there's a lot of truth to this because most people are their own worst enemies because one, they tend to overreact, they tend to be very emotional, especially if they're trying to dive in and out of the markets and time it and things like that.   And then they become their own worst enemy because they overthink things and they really tend to over time, a lot of times if they're doing it themselves, they don't realize great returns or any returns for that matter. And it's generally because they're their own worst enemy and they're trying to do it themselves and they're messing it up.   Speaker 1: For sure. And I think a lot of times we do that, right? Because look, we know that we're supposed to buy low and sell high, but often we panic and do the opposite. I mean, that's just the basic core fundamental that most of us screw up. Not because we don't know better, but because emotionally we freak out and we're like, "I just can't handle it. I just can't stomach it. The market's had a bad week and I've lost $10,000," or whatever it might be. And you're like, "Ah, get me out of here." And that's usually not the right thing to do.   And it could be a myriad of other kinds of situations financially speaking, where you just know that you're not supposed to do XY, or Z, but you do it anyway because your emotions get the better of you. And Tony, that's where you guys come into play. Some of the best value, the biggest value that financial professionals provide is being that sounding board to go, "Hey, look, I get it. All right, but here's why you're going to be okay, just to stay the course," or whatever. Or, "You're right, let's make some tweaks." You guys are that sounding board.   Tony Mauro: I mean, you're exactly right. We have to be the sounding board. And sometimes that's not what people want to hear. But it's [inaudible 00:04:40]-   Speaker 1: I mean, it could be as simple as calling you up and going, "Tony, talk me off the ledge. I'm about to do something dumb. I want to throw all my money into... Or I want to throw 20% of my portfolio into X or Y, or whatever." And you're like, "Okay, let's talk about that." At the end of the day, you're not the money police. If that's what they want to do, it's what they want to do. But again, you're going to give them the pros and cons of the situation and then they can make that informed decision.   All right, well, good job, Lindsey. And good job, Tony. Next one here is from Chuck. We got to go with Charles Barkley. Guy just says all sorts of great stuff. He's hilarious and has some pretty interesting quotes. He said, "I don't create controversies. They are there long before I ever open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention." And I think maybe you guys can do that too, right? It's like, "Look, I didn't create this tax problem you have. I'm bringing it to your attention, but let's now talk about how to address it."   Tony Mauro: Exactly. We do this all the time. This is a great quote from him because part of our job is to, not to tear people apart, but to tell them where we think they need to improve in their financial area of their lives. And so they create some of these controversies, whether it be taxes, whether it be they're behind on retirement planning or whatever else, they don't have any insurance. It's just our job to let them know this and how to fix them the best way so that they can get on the right track. And that's the whole reason for the financial planning process, is to get yourself and to try to stay on track. But like he says, and he does say some crazy things, but he is entertaining.   Speaker 1: And he's got some pretty good wisdom too.   Tony Mauro: He really does. He really does. And I think in order to solve these problems, first of all, you got to admit you have them and then you got to make a plan to get them fixed. It's really in its simplest terms.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'm going to jump to the Shaq one because it really works well as the follow-up to the Chuck one here. Especially with them both being on a same show for a long time with the NBA on the TNT. So if you're talking about the controversy or the problem that Chuck was just talking about and bringing it to the attention, Shaq says, "I never worry about the problem. I worry about the solution."   And I think that's great advice financially speaking too. Maybe not the term never, talking in absolutes, but why worry so much about the problem? Because a lot of times we can't control the problem. We can't control what the government does for taxation rates or what's going on with inflation, but we can worry about the solution.   Tony Mauro: You can, and just like with the election, half of the people in the country are going to be happy, half of them are not going to be. Doesn't matter where you're at. And we tend to focus on, like you say, these minute problems that are most of the time out of our control, all we can do is set up our process, so we're in the mode of trying to be successful. And it's all the time with taxes. I mean-   Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it never ends.   Tony Mauro: ... everybody worries about, "Oh yeah, taxes this, taxes that." Forget about all that. Just worry about how can we take them and use them legally to our advantage to pay the least amount of tax possible. That's just tax avoidance. That's not illegal. [inaudible 00:07:58]-   Speaker 1: Here's the rules of the chess board. We know the chess rules. Now what's the moves we can make with inside the game, right?   Tony Mauro: Yeah. And it's the same on the financial planning side. Same way, they're constantly changing laws and putting new things into place about retirement when you can take money and the deductibility of money. So, you just have to come up with a plan that's best for you and work it to your advantage and really more focus on the process, I think, rather than some of these annoying little things you can't control.   Speaker 1: And even if you feel like, "Oh, they're really big things," yes, but there are things that are never going to... I mean, even like this election, to your point, and well, what's going to happen with the market and what's going to happen with the economy and blah, blah, blah. This is what administration, if you're just now retiring, let's say, and you're retired for 20 or 30 years, guess what? There's only an administration for four years, eight tops. So, you're going to see multiple administrations, which means you're probably going to see multiple tax code changes.   Tony Mauro: Exactly.   Speaker 1: So, you might as well not stress too much over that and instead get a strategy and a plan together to help you weather whatever comes down the pike. Because again, we're all pawns on the chessboard. We have to move within the parameters that the chess piece allows us, right? Chessboard allows us. I think it's a good way of thinking about that. Don't worry about the problem, worry about the solution.   All right, final one here. We'll finish off with one more sports person. I realize we only did one actress or actor, but we were going to go a little bit more sports. Tony and I are sports guys as well, but they're just really good. Sports works so well from a coaching standpoint. Mike Tyson, everybody's probably heard this one and it's a fantastic quote, and it's dead on. "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." And of course he said this back in the day when people were like, they're going to beat him. They figured out how to beat him in the ring.   And he is like, "Yeah, everybody's got a plan until I punch them in the face," and you get woke up real quick. And that's life, Tony. That's dead on for any aspect of life. We can all make a plan and then you get punched in the mouth and you got to change that plan. And so while we're talking about getting people to get a financial strategy and a plan together here on the podcast, you do realize that life is going to still life and throw you curve-balls. That's why you have reviews and that's why you make tweaks and changes.   Tony Mauro: That's right. And I like Mike Tyson. You study him and his life and what a story that has been. Where he came from-   Speaker 1: Had a lot of trouble too, but yeah.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. He had a lot of trouble in his life, was on top of the world as far as money wise. Ended up losing a lot of it to all kinds of things. And I read an article about him when one of his kids were saying that they were to box, and he was telling them, "Why would you ever want to do this with all I've been punched in the face for you, so you wouldn't have to do this."   But taking it back to the financial arena. Yeah, it's exactly that, and we see it all the time. We ask tax clients, "What's your plan for retirement?" They say, "Well, I'm going to retire at 66." I said, "That's it, that's the plan?" And they have not taken it one step further than that. And that's really not a plan, that's just an age you're going to retire. There's all kinds of things that you need to think about is what are you [inaudible 00:11:19]-   Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm going to turn on my social security at 62 and I'm going to start pulling out my retirement accounts at whatever, 67 or whatever it is that then they walk away from the job and hope for the best, right?   Tony Mauro: That's right.   Speaker 1: And it's like, well, that's really not... That's just the basics. That's just the age requirements that you're allowed to do stuff. You got to strategize, man.   Tony Mauro: Exactly. I have a client right now that I'm meeting with in November that is right along these lines. He's 63, she's 62, and they've kind of played a lot in their life, bought a lot of toys and whatnot, don't have a ton of income, just the average American family, but they all of a sudden want to retire and now all of a sudden, they're scared because they didn't have a plan. Now, retirement, in essence is kind of punching them in the mouth saying, well, it's here now. And they don't know if they've got enough money to do it. I don't think they do, I think-   Speaker 1: Which is a lot of people. A lot of people fall into this category.   Tony Mauro: A lot of people, yeah. I mean, that's what I'm talking about. They had a plan, but they didn't really have a plan. They said they did, but they really don't.   Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the back of the napkin stuff, which we all do and there's nothing wrong with it, but at some point you've got to put it into play. I think you said they were in their mid-60s, right? Or early-60s.   Tony Mauro: Right. Is it too late to start planning then? Maybe not, but sometimes it can be. To your point, Tony, you just said, they may not be able to pull off what they want to pull off. They may have to make some tweaks to get it done. So, the sooner you can kind of start... And I think most of us, and I've talked about this a million times, but I think it's a good analogy to think about, even though we're now into November, is that at the age of 50, I think we start waking up a little bit more to the idea of, "Oh crap, it's going to be here quick. When did I get to 50?"   And so you start maybe getting a... And there's a lot of things in place to help you do some of that. Contribution limits get raised and there's hopefully the kids are coming off the payroll, all these things we've talked about before. And so you can hopefully start stocking away more. And that's a great time to start talking with a professional. Have a five, seven, ten-year window to get some planning done, right? It makes a big difference.   It makes a huge difference. And I tell the young people, even if you are not working with a planner in your 20s and 30s, the best advice I can give you is just start saving. Use the Roth IRA. Use your 401(k)s. A lot of them have Roth options now.   Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for sure.   Tony Mauro: Just get in the habit so that when you do start getting a little more serious about it, I'm not saying you shouldn't be early, because you're ahead of the game, but-   Speaker 1: Yeah. 50 bucks a month, man, would make a huge difference if you started in your 20s, early 20s.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. Just get the ball rolling so you've got something. So we're not sitting here when you are 50 and you say, "I really don't have much in anything. Help me out." And we can help everybody, it's just you may not want to hear, which we just talked about, what I have to say. I'm just pointing out some of these gaps and what you'll have to do [inaudible 00:14:23]-   Speaker 1: You can't magically make the money appear that's not there, right?   Tony Mauro: No. I can't just magically create it.   Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. But you can lay out a strategy to go, "Okay, and Mr. and Mrs. Smith or Mr. and Mrs. Jones, whatever, you wanted to retire here in the next, let's say two years. Based on what we've got, based on what you've put together, it's not going to happen. However, if we do XY, and Z, we might could get this done by the next five years," kind of thing or whatever that looks like.   Or the opposite also happens a lot, Tony, which I think people are terrified of, is that people come in to see you for that first time and they're afraid they're going to hear some of the news like you were just talking about, but they actually hear, "Yeah, you guys are in really good shape. With a couple of minor tweaks, you guys are right on time." Or even better, "You guys could actually retire sooner." So, it happens a lot.   Tony Mauro: It does happen a lot. A lot of times people underestimate what they have coming in and they're in better shape than they thought, and they are relieved when they understand not only we have a good nest egg, but that we can live a long time and it's not going to deplete. And now we can start thinking about what are we going to do for our kids and some other thing, grandkids and things when we're gone.   Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So what do you do, right? You take these quotes from these unconventional folks, and you listen to it for a second and you go, "Yeah, you know what? I need to get a plan. I don't want to get punched in the mouth by life," or any of these other little fun quotes we had this week. So do yourself a favor, do your retirement a favor. Sit down with qualified professionals, somebody like Tony and his team. He's a CPA and a CFP and an EA with 30 years of experience.   So, get on the calendar with the team at Tax Doctor Inc. at yourplanningpros.com. That's where you can find them online, at yourplanningpros.com. Check the show note descriptions in this week's podcast for information and links, and don't forget to subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you like using and catch new episodes of Plan with the Tax Man. Tony, my friend, have yourself a great week. Thanks for hanging out and I will see you just right before Thanksgiving.   Tony Mauro: All right, sounds good. Have a great one.   Speaker 1: We'll catch you next time here on Plan with the Tax Man.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

Every firm has distinct principles that guide its approach to financial planning. In this episode, we take you behind the scenes to explore the core values and unique processes that set our firm apart. We'll walk you through how we get to know our clients on a deeper level, create personalized financial strategies, and how our approach redefines what it means to have a successful financial planning experience.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:    Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, we're going to talk about what makes Tony's process and the team's process unique at Tax Doctor, Inc. Let's talk about that this week here on Plan With The Tax Man.   Hey, everybody, welcome in to the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with Tony and I for a few minutes, as we talk investing, finance, and retirement. On this episode, we're going to maybe walk behind the scenes just a little bit, talk some core values, things of that nature, on what Tony and his team do at Tax Doctor, Inc. I thought it would be a good idea to refresh this a little bit. I think we probably talked about this stuff once or twice before over the last couple years of doing the podcast. But it's important I think, to go back to some of the roots, if you will. Some of the basics, if you will. We're going to have a little conversation with Tony.   What's going on, my friend? How are you doing this week?   Tony: I'm doing well. Getting ready to start the week, and weather's still looking good here.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony: Everyone is happy.   Speaker 1: Well, we're taping this the last week of October, dropping it on Halloween. So Happy Halloween! Get your candy on.   Tony: That's right, get your costumes and candy.   Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite candy? I'm in my 50s now, Tony, but I still have a favorite candy. Do you?   Tony: Still the favorite, which I think is the number one for Halloween, and that's Reese's.   Speaker 1: Okay, all right. Yeah. That's one or two. You see it goes back and forth. Snickers, I'm a Snickers guy. I think those are usually the top two right there.   Tony: Right.   Speaker 1: I don't know, black licorice.   Tony: I was just going to say ... Go ahead.   Speaker 1: I was going to say, I was going to ask you a question about black licorice. Do you eat it? Have you ever eaten it?   Tony: I have never eaten it. In fact, oh, it's bad.   Speaker 1: Right?   Tony: To me.   Speaker 1: I don't even know, why do they still make it? Does anybody like it? I don't know.   Tony: Somebody must like it.   Speaker 1: They must. But I have never met anybody, in all my travels, that likes black licorice. Hey, if you like black licorice and you're checking out the podcast, shoot us a message, let us know. I'd be really curious to find out how many people like black licorice.   Tony: I would, too.   Speaker 1: But anyway, you were going to say something?   Tony: I was going to say I just heard, it was actually on the way to work, I don't know if this accurate, but it was on Sirius XM. They were saying the estimated spending on Halloween this year is approaching $11 billion.   Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy?   Tony: Between the candy, the costumes, and all the parties. Boy, that's just a big number.   Speaker 1: Isn't that nuts? That's just nuts.   Tony: On a day that just really you go out, and beg for treats, and get scared.   Speaker 1: Well, I think with the craziness of the world all the time, sometimes we just have to hang on to some of those few traditions, and some of those things that maybe just give us a little fun, a little reprieve, a little whatever.   Tony: Yeah.   Speaker 1: I guess it could be worse. But yeah, that's some crazy ... I think Valentine's Day, too. Crazy numbers that come in on Valentine's Day.   Tony: Yes. That's another one, yeah.   Speaker 1: It's pretty wild.   But anyway, let's get into our topic this week. Tony, let's talk about your core values. What mission statement, if you will, or to go Jerry Maguire for a second here, if you were writing out a mission statement about your patient process, what is the core principles that you and your team try to exude?   Tony: Yeah. Probably the biggest one is we take the approach that you have to do all of your planning with I call it tax-centric or tax in mind. One of the biggest things that people I think lose track of, even though they're always complaining about all the taxes they pay, is taxes over your lifetime are one of the biggest expenses you'll ever pay. You want to make sure, in your planning process, that you're taking all that into account. I think that some advisors don't do that. Obviously, some of them don't have tax backgrounds, which is why they don't do that. I think that you need to use that in there with your process because that is going to make a big difference on that end goal and number.   When we're working through our plans, we always are trying to keep that in mind. Every time we meet with clients to go over their plans, we're discussing that as well. I think if you don't get anything out of this podcast, make sure that you are doing that in your own situation, because that is real key for us.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's an interesting point because not to say that advisors who aren't also CPAs are tax-focused are doing a bad job.   Tony: Exactly.   Speaker 1: But you do have to have this other layer of you're working a financial professional who says, "Okay, here's the things we're doing. Now run that by your CPA to make sure everything's groovy." Granted, to be fair, a lot of financial advisors are very tax smart and very tax efficient. But you have that extra layer there, as a CPA, CFP, and an EA. Of course, it gives you the ability to not only think about it now, which I guess would be the CPA side, but then also the future looking tax implications, which is marrying both of those worlds.   Tony: Yeah. I love 401Ks and everything else, and tax deferred savings.   Speaker 1: Sure, sure.   Tony: A lot of people that are accumulating large balances in those tend to forget that they have an IOU to Uncle Sam toward the end.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony: Now with the new rules, when you die you have to take it out faster and things, it's just something to think about when you're planning.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Let me ask you a question, Tony. I don't know if I've ever asked you this. Which one were you first? Were you a CPA first, or a CFP first? Were you an accountant or a financial advisor?   Tony: I started out as an accountant.   Speaker 1: Okay.   Tony: Early on, when I was working for somebody else, this was 30 years ago plus, all the partners got to talk about all the good stuff. We were just the grunts, if you will. I always wanted to do that-   Speaker 1: The adding machines, yeah.   Tony: Yeah, yeah. We were the operations, and they were the people that got to talk with the clients, and do all the things, and the planning.   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony: I wanted to be that. This was well before even the CFP stuff, and financial planning was even a thing.   Speaker 1: Gotcha.   Tony: It just was one of those things, "I want to be able to do that." That's how I got into it, way back in the day.   But yeah, in answer to your question, I was an accountant first.   Speaker 1: Okay. Again, the role of the CPA typically, it's revisionist history. They're doing their job, they're doing their job well. They're looking at the tax situation that's just expired, the past year. They're going back, and they're helping you do all that kind of stuff. I think by having that hat, and then moving yourself into the CFP, it probably gave you a really interesting and unique approach, which is probably why you set your business up the way you did. To say, "Look, I want to do this not only for the current calendar year, but we've got to be tax efficient through all the years moving forward because that's really where we're going to make a real dent." Is that a fair assessment?   Tony: That's a fair assessment. With tax clients, we already know, at least on the financial side, a lot about them, doing their tax over the years.   Speaker 1: Sure, yeah.   Tony: You know where they're at. You can even back into what they have or haven't saved. It's easy to have conversations about, "You need to start thinking about," say for example, retirement. "Oh, by the way, we have to try to do it tax efficiently." That's how the conversations generally start. If they're not working with somebody, then that's when we will introduce ourselves and say, "Let's try to put something together."   I think most planners are this way, especially us. If people have an outside relationship, we are definitely not out there trying to step on anybody's toes, or steal clients.   Speaker 1: Right, right. There's enough folks out there.   Tony: Number one, it's not good business ethically.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony: It's not good if somebody else is doing a good job. We're basically looking at the tax clients and others that don't have that.   Speaker 1: Sure.   Tony: Or some of the people have retired, or they don't hear from them, that kind of thing, is where we come in.   Speaker 1: Well, I think the new numbers ... We've been hearing for a while now that, it was what 10,000 Boomers a day retiring. We've been hearing that for a couple years. Well, I think now, in 2024 going in 2025, I think it's now at maximum peak. They're calling it Peak 65 that's been making the rounds on some of the media lately, you might have saw that. It's 12,000, I think, people a day are eligible for retirement. That's a huge number. Granted, that's globally. But still, that's a big number. Plenty of business to go around, to your point.   Tony: Yeah.   Speaker 1: There's no reason to go poaching, so to speak.   Tony: No.   Speaker 1: Let's talk about customization and client education. How do you help clients build that strategy and make those informed decisions? Because education clearly is a big piece of this. Some people really want to come see a professional like you, Tony, and say, "Okay, teach me what I don't know, help me understand this stuff." Others will come to you and say, "I don't care, just handle it."   Tony: Right.   Speaker 1: You have to balance that customized plan to, I guess their individual wants and needs, as far as even just knowing the information.   Tony: Really, right off the bat, before we even agree to work with someone is, after we've had a conversation or two and they want to move forward, we basically have them in, and we go through ... It is basic. There's literally 10 or 12 things. We just have them check a box saying, "Does this thing worry you?" Then we score it. Then based on that, I don't show this to the clients, but I basically say, "Yeah, you probably do need some help." Or, "You've pretty much got everything under control by the way you answered this." Then I'll ask them, "Why are we even talking?" But most of them have some anxiety and some pain, so we start there.   Once that's determined, then we go into the plan. Of course, we use software, like most everybody does.   Speaker 1: Sure.   Tony: Then we have some more detailed things to try to get to know them. I always tell people, just like your doctor, I'm uncomfortable with recommending things until I know more about you. I've got the tax stuff.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony: I need to know what some of the emotional stuff is. Your goals, what you want out of life, and all of this, before we can make recommendations. Because I think a lot of people think all we sit around and do is make recommendations, and mine could be further from the truth.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Pick this stock, pick that fund. Right, yeah.   Tony: Yeah. Not it.   Speaker 1: That's definitely not the case. Well, Tony, you said something a minute ago. Let me expand on that. You've been doing this for 30 years, in different capacities. You've been in the financial services world. If somebody walked in for their initial consultation, and handed you their files, their basket of stuff. Like a lot of advisors and professionals who've been doing this a long time, I imagine that you probably could look it over, and probably pretty quickly, within five or 15 minutes, have a rough idea of what they should or shouldn't be doing. But to your point about, "I don't know you yet," that's not the best way to give a recommendation. Could you do it because you have the skillset? Yeah, you probably could.   Tony: Yeah.   Speaker 1: But you need to learn more about ... You can see all the data, but now let's find out about who the person is. I think that's the real happy marriage in that relationship.   Tony: It is. Once you design a plan for them, and I walk them through it on a basic level. We don't like to talk in jargon, or anything like that. We just set some goals. No different than you'd do, whether it's your business, whether it's your fitness. We monitor those goals and say, "Where are we?" When we meet again, are we progressing toward that goal? Or has it changed and we need to reassess?   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony: Because that'll tell us a lot about are we in the right things, as far as investments go, to meet those goals. Or maybe, we need to switch things up. Really, I like to call us we want to be the financial quarterback of your financial situation. Yes, we're going to have some investments in there and some different things, but we want to make sure you're covered from start to end. And not only investments. It could be charitable giving. It could be you're under-insured. It could be you're concerned about putting things in trust for some grandkids, things like that. It gets people talking about some things that sometimes they never thought about, for sure.   Speaker 1: Well, that really brings me to my last point, which is how do you value, or how do you assess success for your clients? Yeah, obviously we could go with the basic financial metrics.   Tony: Right.   Speaker 1: That's pretty much a given. Hey, is the plan solid? Is it going to get you ... "We've run the numbers, you're going to be able to make it until 99 before running out of money," or whatever, something like that.   Tony: Yeah.   Speaker 1: But what other metrics do you guys use to measure success for a client?   Tony: Well, besides that stuff, which is a given, we have some little charts that we call the Client Happiness Charts. We have clients fill this out at different times along their journey. Then toward the end, when they're retired. Because we want to make sure that they're checking of the boxes that really matter to them, as far as what they consider success. For some of them it's "Hey, I'm now able to travel, I've always wanted to do it." For some of them it's, "I've got this little menial job, I love going to it." There's about 25 of them there.   As we go through the process, it's fun to see, especially if somebody started say in their 30s. We've had a few. I pull them out, they're now retired. To show them, "Well, here's what was important back to you back when you were 35, this was 15, 18 years ago. Now look what you're doing." Just show them the progress.   That's what gives us the most joy, is to see them doing what they want to do. Obviously, some of that takes money, and that's the whole point of trying to grow it. It's that, and making sure that they understand how much they can take out each year and not outlive their money, because that's a big issue with all of our retiree clients.   Speaker 1: Yeah. To your point a second ago as well, are you happy with all the other different pieces? Have we addressed and dealt with the legacy conversation?   Tony: Right.   Speaker 1: Just checking off the bucket list stuff. There's all these little pieces that go into valuing or measuring success for the client. Is it a pleasant experience? Do you look forward to coming in, and talking with your advisor? And saying, "Yeah, I feel like we're buddies. We don't hang out and go to dinner together, but I feel like we have a good rapport." I think that's really important in a lot of business relationships in life, but certainly when you're talking about your money.   Tony: Absolutely.   Speaker 1: With your doctor, too. Some people dread seeing their doctor because they don't like their personality. It's like, well, maybe get a different doctor so that you can have a conversation with them that you're going to take to heart, and it also resonates with you. I think same thing financially. If you go see an advisor, and they don't click with you, and they're giving you good information but you just don't like them, and therefore you don't follow through with it or do anything, you're just wasting your own time. You know what I mean?   Tony: Exactly. Yeah.   Speaker 1: It's important. Good stuff. Well, good conversation, man. Thanks for hanging out with us and chatting a little bit about what makes you guys unique. People in general are unique, so every situation's going to be different. Certainly, there's those big generalities, Tony, that affect all of us in the financial world. Social security, and taxation, and inflation, and blah, blah, blah. All the big core tenets that we have to deal with, that's certainly a part of the game that we have to run through. But every person's little puzzle is different from the next. You and I are completely different people, so our strategies are going to be different.   If you need some help, get on the calendar. Have a conversation with Tony and his team. Or if you're already working with him, and you've got some friends or loved ones that maybe should have that chat for themselves, let them know. Let them check out the podcast. Or just reach out to Tony and his team at yourplanningpros.com. That is yourplanningpros.com for a complimentary consultation and conversation with the team at Tax Doctor, Inc.   Tony, thanks for hanging out, my friend. Good conversation.   Tony: All right. We'll see you next time.   Speaker 1: Always appreciate it. Of course, it's Halloween as we're dropping this, so happy Halloween to everybody. Stay stay and sane. Don't forget to get out there and vote, because it's just around the corner. We'll see you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

A random, retired YouTuber did a simple video exploring the top 5 regrets from other retirees he interviewed (all in their 70s). It blew up to almost half a million views (and counting). Let's see what regrets made the list and, more importantly, explore what proactive steps you can take to avoid having the same regrets when you retire.   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:    Speaker 1: A random retired YouTuber did a very simple video explaining the top five regrets from other retirees he interviewed all in their seventies. This week we're going to talk about those regrets here on Plan With The Tax Max and see how they line up with clients that come in to C & Tony. Let's talk about it. Here we go.   Hey everybody, thanks for tuning into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with Tony Morrow and myself as we talk investing, finance, retirement here on Plan With The Tax Man. He has been doing this for many, many years and he's a qualified professional to help you with your retirement situation as a CPA, a CFP, and an EA of 30 plus years in the industry. Again, a great resource for you to reach out to.   And Tony, I thought I'd share this with our listeners and stuff out there. We'll put a link to the video for folks who want to check it out. It was a very simple video. Nice guy. Seemed very pleasant, just asking some other retirees. I think he was maybe around 65 or so. These folks were all over their seventies. It's got like a half million plus views of this video to talk about the things they regret now that they're further into retirement. And maybe so we can share some proactive steps because you do this day in and day out of ways to avoid having some of those similar regrets when our folks or our listeners retire. Okay?   Tony: Sounds good.   Speaker 1: And of course if you haven't checked it out, go check it out folks. Like I said, it's a pretty good video.   But number one, and I think this is probably fairly not surprising across the board there, they wish they had retired earlier. Thinking about that, if they're in their seventies, they probably got to where they're like, "Hey, this is pretty great. I wish we would've been able to do this a little bit sooner." And I know more and more people want to retire earlier, but it certainly is a math problem you're going to have to solve for if that's a regret you don't want to have.   Tony: And I have watched the gentleman's video and I would encourage everybody to go watch it because it is informative. And almost all of these, I can relate back to my own father, but many clients as well. But really a lot of people, if you don't have this on your mind and you're not planning for it ... And it all comes back to what we always talk about is enlisting the help of your advisor to help you with this.   But if you wait too long, generally what people are saying is, I continue to want to work and I thought that I would just push it off and everything's going to be okay. Maybe not financially, and my own father worked too long. He worked till he was 80 years old. And that now all of a sudden stuff starts happening, whether you lose a spouse or your health deteriorates and then you feel like you can't enjoy it like you thought you were going to. And a lot of people have this regret because of that. And a lot of them, I think my father included, didn't really have a plan in place to say, okay, this is the end date I'm going to now start the next chapter of my life. And they wake up one day and they're into their retirement and they can't do what they wanted to do.   Speaker 1: And all five of these, you literally can link them together and see how fixing a one or two things could possibly fix all of these or eliminate these regrets.   Tony: Exactly.   Speaker 1: Wishing you retired earlier, well, A knowing that you've got the funds to do so is going to probably be, I think, paramount there because you don't want to get into retirement too early and then obviously run out of money. That's the number one fear for most people.   Number two, Tony was they wish they had spent more when they did first retire. I think to me, this comes right back to that math problem of they got into retirement ... Or like many people do, they get to retirement. Maybe they fudge the math, a little back of the napkin math or whatever, and they're like, "Yeah, we can make this work, but we'll just play it a little close to the chest in retirement," and then they don't wind up maybe doing those things that were on their bucket list early on. Then they realize, hey, we are going to be fine. But now our bodies, to your point a minute ago, won't let us go do the things. I wish we'd have done that sooner. So again, this to me all comes down to having a spending plan and a strategy.   Tony: Yes. And we do this with every single retiree that we work with, is come up with a spending plan. We come up with a list of their bucket list. Even if it doesn't ever get checked off, at least we have it in the background and we want them to spend some of their money, obviously, according to the plan and according to their lifestyle.   And the other thing I think that's important at least that we do, is we run a lot of analysis to make sure that they're comfortable knowing if we spend X, how long before our money runs out, if ever. And then that way they can feel good about spending money without having to worry about, I don't know when I'm going to run out of money and I don't want to, so therefore I'm going to keep it all. And like you said, then you get too far along and you can't enjoy it. But that is the most important thing in that whole area.   Speaker 1: Oh, for sure. Well, and number three is they wish they had taken better care of their health. Again, see, these all play together obviously, right?   Tony: Yes.   Speaker 1: Because if you took a little bit better care of your health and you planned properly, you might've been able to retire earlier, possibly, and then of course spent more and done more of those go-go phase things.   Tony: As I age, and I watched my father age, he's now 83, you see, especially, at least I do with him, he just can't do things that he used to do. And he's in fairly good health, but he's got the normal issues. But boy, if you've got a lot of health problems and some of them you can't control, I realize, but some you can, and I'm not saying you just have to constantly be just eating salads every day or something, but you do have to try to watch it. And as you get older, I don't know, at least with me, more cognizant of what my blood pressure is, what my weight is, and things like that.   Speaker 1: Mobility. Mobility is a big one, Tony, keeping those knees and stuff moving and those hips because again, think about the downtime that happens to so many seniors when they have a hip replacement or a knee replacement, especially if they've been kind of sedentary in their life. It makes it even tougher.   Tony: And we all think we're going to retire in perfect health and we're going to be able to go out and do things well into our eighties and for many, many, that doesn't happen. So it goes back to some what we just talked about, trying to stay healthy so you can retire earlier so you can enjoy.   Speaker 1: Unfortunately, our laws and a lot of things that we have in place don't make it any easier. So we even have to make the even harder choices because it is easy to get such crap food and do things to put in our body that's not great.   We were just having this conversation and made a joke last night and had family in for my mother's birthday as well Tony, she's the same age as your dad, and she asked if the dogs could have peanut butter. And it's like, well, sure, everybody knows that dogs love peanut butter, but there's a chemical in peanut butter. I think it's Zytitol or something like that. I'm probably saying it wrong. It's not great for them, so you should not give them too, too much peanut butter or go with natural peanut butter, like all natural peanut butter. And I made this joke and I thought, this chemical that's in peanut butter, it's not good for dogs. It's not safe for dog consumption, but apparently it is for humans because they allow it to be in peanut butter for us to eat.   We have these crazy, crazy chemicals that we put into a lot of our food, which does not help our health situations either. So smart eating, to your point, not necessarily a salad every day, but smart diet, mobility, things of that nature go a long way in order to helping you feel better in retirement so that you can go back to doing more of those things that you want to do.   And maybe that flies into this one here, number four, which is many of those folks on there, they said they wish they had taken up a hobby. And I think maybe these are the workaholic type people out there, Tony, that are so wrapped up in their work that said, that's who I am. So many of us do that. My job is my thing. It's my entity, so to speak. And when you retire, if you don't have that hobby or if you hadn't fostered one along the way, you have that, what do I do now mentality?   Tony: Yeah. This happened to my own father because his only hobby really was golf. And he's played golf, but now at 83, he wants to play, but he's had some heart issues and some other things he can't play anymore. But he now really regrets that he didn't have other things he was doing.   Speaker 1: Sure.   Tony: And it doesn't have to be necessarily sports. It could be anything. It could be reading. It could be [inaudible 00:08:51].   Speaker 1: Stamp collecting. Whatever.   Tony: Anything, just something that you have a passion for that you want to do is, I think it's important too to have something to keep your mind sharp rather than just going out and doing, say a golf type thing because studies have shown that your mind starts to go a little bit when you don't exercise it. And I think with a lot of retirees, they tend to be by themselves some if they've lost a spouse and their mind starts to slip a little bit because they aren't, other than watching TV, really challenging it a little bit. So I think it's important for people to have some kind of hobby. It could be anything. Especially with today, you could do everything online if it just occupies some of your time and it's helpful to you.   Speaker 1: I agree. Absolutely. And having that hobby or whatever that case is certainly again, helps with the mobility, helps with the mental, just like you pointed out.   And again, all of these work together because the fifth one, Tony, was they wish they had traveled more. Well, again, look at all five of these and put them together and you can certainly see where these regrets all line up. If you had a strategy, if you had a plan, if you had taken a little bit better care of yourself, maybe you would be able to do all the things on this list and not have the regrets. Now life is always full of regrets. You're going to probably have some, but at least you could check some of these off. And of course, travel is one that many people have. But to your point earlier, maybe they don't feel like that number two, they didn't spend as much, so they're holding onto it. They're keeping the money tight to the chest. They get a little older and now their health won't let them maybe go take that travel trip around the world or over to Italy or whatever.   Tony: And I just returned from Hawaii about a week and a half ago, and I was just mentioning to my wife some of the elderly people that are still trying to travel, and they come in the plane on those little plane type of wheelchairs and whatnot. But they don't make travel easy for the elderly. If you can't walk fast and get down those ramps and-   Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Especially if you've got a layover.   Tony: Then it's a whole other topic.   Speaker 1: Especially if you're stuck on a layover.   Tony: Then you got a layover in some giant airport. Let alone when you get somewhere having to walk. So that's the physical stuff. I think a lot of people, like you said, they don't plan some of this other stuff, and then they always wanted to travel and they get too far along. My dad right now is afraid to travel because he doesn't want to get sick and get laid over and have something happen in even another state's hospital, let alone in our country.   Speaker 1: Oh, sure.   Tony: And he just is very fearful of that. And I think physically he could do it, but he's afraid.   Speaker 1: And hey, the mental aspect goes a long way to keeping you, I guess, stuck. You can't get out of that cycle. You can't get your own brain out of the way.   Tony: I've told my brothers with him, I don't see him ever traveling again unless it was some kind of miracle because he just gets too afraid. And that's, I think, more mental with him. But I know he regrets because he worked too long that he wish they would've traveled more.   Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I can't get my mom on a plane either, so I'm with you there. If she wants to see my sister, my sister has to come to her or I have to drive her there. And that's like a 14-hour drive, so it's not easy to do.   So if you don't want to have these regrets again, you got to have a strategy in place and it's not just for the X's and O's, the money. Obviously that's super important. But Tony, what you guys do is you help people go through and strategize and plan and stress test, and think about the different scenarios that come up in retirement because it's our only retirement when we come in to see someone like yourself. But you've helped hundreds or thousands of families, so you guys have great insights on that.   Tony: And we've seen a lot of different things, so we could certainly share a lot of different things that we've seen both good and bad.   Speaker 1: Sure.   Tony: And try to help people.   Speaker 1: And a strategy and a plan, that's where it all starts so that you know what you got, why you've got it, and how you're going to be able to use it when you get to retirement. And maybe part of that plan is also getting yourself healthy, sitting down with a financial professional, especially once you get to 50 or a little higher, it's a great time. I think we start all focusing a little harder on, hey, my golden years are coming. Many people I know my age fifty-plus are starting to get in better shape and so on and so forth because they don't want to be in the same situation that their parents are in.   So if you need some help, sit down and talk with a qualified like Tony and his team at Tax Doctor, Inc, they are here to help. So you can plan with the Tax Man. Find him online at yourplanningpros.com. That's yourplanningpros.com for a complimentary review and strategy session of your own. Tony, thanks for hanging out and I appreciate you my friend, as always.   Tony: All right, we'll see you next month. Thanks.   Speaker 1: We'll see you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man. Go check out the video as well and make sure that you got a plan in place so that you don't have any of those regrets when you get into your seventies as well. And we'll see you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man.   Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA, SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.

Remember the thrill of shaking a Magic 8 Ball to get answers to your childhood questions? Would we ace that math test? Would we be famous someday? Well, today, we're bringing a bit of that magic back. But instead of asking about pop quizzes and playground crushes, we're turning to the Magic 8 Ball for advice on something much more important: your retirement planning! What would the Magic 8 Ball have to say about these common retirement questions if it had the wisdom of a financial advisor?   Important Links: Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381   ----more---- Transcript:    Speaker 1: Do you guys remember the thrill of shaking that magic eight ball that we had when we were kids and we would hopefully get the answers we were looking for and sometimes be disappointed when not? Well, let's have a little fun this week here on Plan with the Tax Man and go with the magic eight ball's guide to retirement planning. Let's get into it. Speaker 2: Look up in the sky. Speaker 3: It's a bird. Speaker 4: It's a plane. Speaker 5: No, it's the tax man. He may not be a superhero, but Tony Morrow has saved many retirement plans with his extreme knowledge of tax planning strategies. It's time for Plan with the Tax Man. Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome into the podcast. Thanks for hanging out with Tony and myself as we talk investing, finance and retirement. And Tony, I'm going to let you break out your magic eight ball and plan some financial stuff with us. I think sometimes people maybe actually approach their finances with this old idea. Sometimes they just don't quite do the things they should be doing, and I thought it'd be kind of fun, be kind of humorous to, I'll ask you some questions. You give us a magic eight ball answer, but then you also obviously elaborate on that for us. What do you think? Tony Morrow: I think that's good. Going back to the magic eight ball, I'm old enough to have had one of those. So for those of you that are young listening, you should look it up on the internet and see what kind of toys we had as kids. Speaker 1: Well, actually they still make it. Tony Morrow: Do they still make it? Oh my goodness. Speaker 1: Yeah, they still make it. Yeah. So the idea popped up with one of our producers or writers because they have little ones and they saw it and I was like, oh, well, there you go. I didn't know they still made that thing, but very cool. Yeah, so some of the really cool toys still exist, so that's always good to see, right? They're not all going the way of the Dodo Bird. I don't think Stretch Armstrong exists anymore, but I loved my Stretch Armstrong. Do you remember that? Tony Morrow: I remember the Stretch Armstrong. We had that and then we cut him and... Speaker 1: To see what was inside it? Tony Morrow: We wanted to see what was inside. Yeah, that was... Speaker 1: Just sort just some sort of goop? Tony Morrow: Yeah, some sort of goop. We liked The Six Million Dollar Man and all that. The bionic eye... Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Six Million Dollar Man and his a little bionic eye. That was so cool. Tony Morrow: Yeah. So it didn't take much to entertain us. Speaker 1: No, it didn't because we didn't have these stupid phones, which was great. So anyway, let's have a little fun. Let's go back in time here. Tony, let's get it started. Should I start saving for retirement now? What does the magic eight ball say and what does Tony say? Tony Morrow: I have to agree with the magic eight ball because it's going to say yes. Definitely right now. It's never too late. And now it doesn't matter where you're at on the spectrum because you're going to need this. I was just in a meeting with my employees talking to them about that, about state of affairs today. Employers are not going to take care of you. This isn't the day of the pension, the old-fashioned pension, and where you work for somebody for 40 years and retiring at this monthly income, you can't outlive. I mean, it's all on us. So if you procrastinate this, the longer you do, the more you're going to have to save to get to your goals, and you need to have some goals anyway, but that is a short down and dirty on that. Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, no, I agree. And thinking about the magic eight ball too. So it had an assortment of answers, right? It had the yes, definitely. It had a bunch of, I guess what we would call the greens or the positives. Without a doubt. It's decidedly so. Outlook good. And then it had things like reply hazy or can't predict now. Had some of that middle ground. And it had some of those reds, right? My reply is, no, don't count on it. So on and so forth. So kind of thinking about those, Tony as you're shaking that and giving us some answers. But yeah, there's no better time than now no matter where you're at. Waiting another day only makes things even more complicated. So should I start saving now? Yes, definitely. Is a million dollars enough to retire on magic eight ball? Tony Morrow: Magic eight ball says, "Reply hazy. Try again." I'm going to answer. I think what they're talking about there is it depends. And ironically too, I was just reading an article this morning in a financial magazine saying that the new retirement numbers like 1.8, 1.9 million. Now again, that's just somebody's opinion and they make their piece for it. Speaker 1: Sure. Well, how you live, where you live, that's going to change all that. Tony Morrow: That's going to change all that. I think probably it depends on where you live, but it could be enough If you want a modest lifestyle, you're definitely not going to be destitute if we're just talking real general terms. But depending on what you want, what your goals are, that certainly may not be enough in today's world to do what you want to do. But that's kind of the number that still everybody's got in their mind, they like to shoot for. We as advisors like to take that a step further and say, "Look, let's really talk about what you want and see if that's enough or not." I think that's the help of an advisor. Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Tony, we're two different people here on this podcast. A million dollars might work for you, and it might be more than I needed to get to. I could work too long and not enjoy my retirement if because I didn't need that much because maybe I have a pension and you don't to your point earlier. Tony Morrow: Right. Speaker 1: Right? Tony Morrow: Yeah. Speaker 1: Or maybe my lifestyle is much more significantly lower than yours or whatever the case might be. So is a million dollars enough? You have reply hazy great because well, maybe and maybe not. So retirement's a math problem. Tony Morrow: It is. Speaker 1: You got to solve the math. So maybe you've got to work to get to the million and maybe you could retire sooner, or maybe you got to work to get to 2 million, but you're not going to know until you run those numbers so definitely make sure that you're sitting down with a qualified professional like Tony on that. Magic eight ball, can I rely on social security for my retirement? Tony Morrow: I've got it in front of me. I looked it up on the internet. I wanted to see, and the first picture is the answer and it says, "Outlook not so good," and I agree with that. Social security that could be a whole topic and it's discussed a lot. I do a lot of webinars on it and I send out a lot of information on it. It is an important piece, especially for those that are getting closer to it, especially when they take it type of thing. But if you're relying on that, social security wasn't meant to be what some people think it is, and it really was an insurance policy to keep people from being destitute and dying in the streets way back when it was [inaudible 00:05:52]. Speaker 1: And we had much less people and all that. All the things we know. And I think Tony, let ask you to this way, can you do it? Yes, I've got a family member who's surviving solely on social security. Are they happy about it? No. Right? Tony Morrow: Right. Speaker 1: What kind of retirement do you want? And if you want the bare minimum, then yeah, it probably can be done because I mean many thousands of people, millions of people are probably doing it, but it's not the ideal thing, right? Tony Morrow: It's not the ideal thing. And this is where you want to have a plan. It can be part of your plan. Now, obviously, if you're at the end, and like you said, that's all you have, it's better than nothing, obviously. Speaker 1: Sure. That was the point. Tony Morrow: I've got an uncle who just passed away and they didn't do any planning. And ironically, he had a pension plan from the state, but he took the highest payout. So once he died, the pension's over, he does have a spouse that's still living. She's in her late eighties, and so they're down to $1,800 a month in social security net, and their rent is 1400. Now that's leaves $400 for everything else. That probably doable, but not great at all. So I mean, you want to probably stay out of that. And then looking forward, in about 10 years, social security trust fund is going to be paying out well more than it's taking in. They're going to have to fix it. That's why the outlook is really not that good. I don't think they'll let it go by the wayside, but it might look different in 10 to three years from now. Speaker 1: I definitely think it's going to look different for anybody under the age of 40. Tony Morrow: Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1: It's going to almost have to. All right, so let's do a couple more here, Tony. Magic eight ball, can I expect to have fewer expenses in retirement compared to when I'm working? Tony Morrow: Yeah, don't count on it. Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the same thing. That's- Tony Morrow: That's the eight ball answer. Speaker 1: That's the same thing that Marsha Smith said to me when I asked her out to the eighth grade dance. She said, "Don't count on it." People often think this, Tony, they come in and see a financial professional like yourself, and they're like, "Well, listen, we think we got enough to retire on because we're going to spend less money in retirement than we are now." So they're kind of like fudging the math to make themselves feel good about maybe getting into retirement, but they don't truly have that plan. And as you've seen, because you've been doing this for many, many years now, do you want to live a lesser lifestyle in retirement, then don't count on it. Just because expenses change doesn't mean they're necessarily lower. Tony Morrow: Yeah. And then everybody that I see entering retirement two years in, they all are telling me the same thing is my expenses are higher. And it really is, comes down to a couple of things. One, healthcare costs rise tremendously, and two, they're doing more because [inaudible 00:08:22] they're actually out and they're spending more money, which is the whole idea. But the old adage, like you say, of, oh yeah, I can retire and I won't have any expenses. Some will go away, but others will increase. Speaker 1: Others come on. Yeah. Tony Morrow: Yeah. And so you got to watch that when you got to plan it. Speaker 1: Yep, so don't count on them. Don't count on it. It's a great response there from the magic eight ball. And again, all of this is going to come back to that, this is the point of why you need a full strategy design for specialty for yourself, because every situation is going to be a little bit different. So dialing it in, we can get all those generalities because we all do suffer from the same kind of universal questions when it comes to retirement. But then how each puzzle kind of plays out for person to person is different. And that's why it's so important, again, to sit down and talk with qualified professionals like Tony and his team at Tax Doctor Inc. All right, one or two more here, Tony. We'll wrap it up. Will my retirement play and be affected by future changes in tax laws? What might the magic eight ball say? Tony Morrow: Magic eight ball says, "Signs point to yes." I got to think that. Of course, I say that all the time because tax laws change almost all the time now, especially with administrations. And some of them were drastic. Back in the day, I remember tax laws were, major things were pretty few and far between. Now everything changes so quickly. And I definitely think you need to stay on top of that. Obviously you have your advisor for that to help you with that. But if you're not taking that into account that really could blindside you retirement, if you're not careful. Speaker 1: Well, you think about what the tax implications are going to do to us with our retirement plan. And it's one of those ones that can really scalp your plan. So it's like, Hey, we thought we've got a good plan in place, but then taxation rates come along or change or get higher. And obviously with the debt that we have, the signs are certainly likely that that's going to happen. I was just on an interview last week, Tony, with former Comptroller General of the US David Walker, and asked him the question, can we just tax our way out of this debt? And he's like, "No." I mean, even just taxing people to the hilt is not going to get it done. There's going to have to cut spending and there's going to have to be changes in order to fix all this. And the problem is finding politicians that will actually do it and [inaudible 00:10:29] be fiscally responsible. And he was talking about the fact that there hasn't been a fiscally responsible president since Bill Clinton. He said none of the presidents since Bill Clinton have been fiscally responsible. And I thought, well, that's kind of stark, right? So yeah, are we going to be affected by future tax changes? I would say signs certainly point to yes. I think magic eight ball's right on the money there. Okay. Let's see. Should I review my retirement plan annually, magic eight ball? Pretty easy one, I think? Tony Morrow: Without a doubt. Speaker 1: Without a doubt. Tony Morrow: Eight ball. And obviously that's an easy one. I mean, if you're not doing that, really then going to end up getting probably off track, especially if you don't do it for long periods of time. Speaker 1: Yeah. Tony Morrow: This is where I believe that an advisor can offer the most value, is to at least meet with your advisor, I would recommend this at least once a year. Make sure you're still on track. Make sure that your plan is still performing the way you want it to. And gives you a chance to make changes because maybe even your goals are something change. And if you just, especially in the accumulation stage when you're younger, you're just planning pretty easy to skip this and just hope for the best. And you don't want to do that because obviously as things change and a lot of the stuff that we just talked about comes into play, suddenly you could be way off. Speaker 1: Very true. Tony Morrow: Not even know it until it's a little bit too late. Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, course corrections along the way are important. That's why you have those, so certainly, yep, certainly a good idea to do and we'll make this last one a layup here. So should I consider working with a professional as I near retirement? The magic eight ball's got to say yes. Tony Morrow: Magic eight ball says, "Yes." Yeah, he's popping out saying yes. Speaker 1: That's right. That's right. Tony Morrow: I think especially as you get near towards retirement, your focus changes less on accumulation maybe to more of income distribution. Do I have enough to live on and how's this going to look for me? And that's where I think advisor can help not only continue to build things after retirement and making sure you're getting the income you need along with a little bit hopefully of growth and expense management. So I definitely would say yes. I'm not saying that you shouldn't work [inaudible 00:12:28] advisor even if you're young, but it's all the same, I think order to get to where you want to go, have that good plan in place. I think an advisor is a necessity in my opinion. Speaker 1: Yeah, especially as you do near retirement, we get older. Can you get by DIY-ing and building your wealth when you're younger? Yeah. I mean, many people do, and it's a little bit easier to build it than it is to do the preservation stage, which is retirement. But as you get closer to it, there's a lot more to deal with, which we obviously talk about on the regular and that's why you need to turn to a qualified professional like Tony, who's got 30 plus years in the industry. He's a CPA, a CFP, and an EA so he's a great resource for you to tap into. If you're listening to the podcast and you're not already working with him, consider reaching out to them at yourplanningpros.com. That is yourplanningpros.com. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you can catch new and future episodes by subscribing on Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you like using. You can find all that information again at Tony's website yourplanningpros.com, and get yourself onto the calendar with he and his team at Tax Doctor Inc. Tony, thanks for hanging out my friend and walking down the nostalgia path with the old magic eight ball here. Tony Morrow: Yeah, sounds good. We'll see you next time. It was a lot of fun. Speaker 1: Always appreciate you and we'll catch you next time here on Plan With the Tax Man with Tony Morrow. Speaker 7: Securities offered through Avantax Investment Services SM, member FINRA SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency. Investment strategies discussed in this episode may not be suitable for all investors. Please consult with a financial professional.  

Dan Nation is a professor of gerontology and medicine at USC. His research focuses on vascular factors in the brain and how they affect memory decline and dementia in older adults. He joined us to talk about studying blood vessels in the brain to identify early signs of dementia and potential therapies to treat it. Transcript Speaker 1 (00:01): The variability in your blood pressure day to day, month to month, year to year, and sometimes even beat to beat–the variability in your blood pressure is predictive of dementia risk. So higher levels of blood pressure variability are bad, even if you have very well controlled blood pressure levels. And this is important because currently we only treat average blood pressure. There is no treatment for variability in blood pressure. So it's a new area that we should try to look into controlling to see if we can prevent dementia in people who have high variation, even if they're already treated for hypertension. Speaker 2 (00:45): From the USC Leonard Davis School of Gerontology, this is Lessons in Lifespan Health, a podcast about the science and scientists improving how we live and age. I'm Orli Belman, Chief Communications Officer. On today's episode: how Professor Dan Nation is studying blood vessels in the brain to identify early signs of dementia and potential therapies to treat it. Dan Nation is a professor of gerontology and medicine at USC. His research focuses on vascular factors in the brain and how they affect memory decline and dementia in older adults. Welcome to our podcast Dan, and thank you for being here today. Speaker 1 (01:26): Thanks for having me. Speaker 2 (01:28): I wanna start by asking you about blood vessels in our brain. Is there anything unique about the brain's vasculature system, and how did it become the focus of your research? Speaker 1 (01:39): Yeah, it's a great question. So there's actually several things that are unique about the brain vasculature. For one thing, just the number of blood vessels. So you might think about the larger vessels that you can see with the naked eye, but most of the vessels are microscopic. And we have so many blood vessels in the brain that there's actually one blood vessel for every neuron. So every brain cell basically has its own microscopic blood vessel. So it's billions and billions of blood vessels, and this is likely the case because the brain has an incredible need for blood flow to support its very high metabolic rate. And the brain cannot store energy unlike other tissues in the body, and so any energy that the neurons need, they have to get on the fly from blood. So there's a torrential amount of blood flow that's disproportionate to the size of the brain. Speaker 1 (02:34): In addition to that, blood is actually toxic to brain tissue. And so the neurons need a special environment to operate, and so that milieu has to be well controlled. So the blood contains proteins, cells, infectious agents, metals, ions–all of which, if it were to get into the actual brain compartment, would be very toxic and would cause degeneration of the brain cells, cell death. And so their brain has a special structure that divides the blood off from the brain. This doesn't exist in other parts of our body; it's called the blood brain barrier. So that has to have integrity in order for the brain to survive and function properly. In addition, because of that, the way waste products of regular cellular metabolism and so forth, any other toxins that are in the brain, the way that gets moved out of the brain is different than other parts of the body because the lymphatic system in the brain is really different because we have to have this blood-brain barrier. So for a number of different reasons, the vessels are special. A lot of it has to do with the blood-brain barrier because the separation of the blood from the brain means that all of the nutrients have to be pumped actively into the brain. And all of these, again, waste products have to be pumped actively out somehow. And so any dysfunction there could lead to the buildup of toxins in the brain, which would cause degeneration. Speaker 2 (04:11): So your PhD is in psychology, correct? Speaker 1 (04:14): Yeah, neuropsychology. Speaker 2 (04:15): Neuropsychology. So how did you get interested in the vascular system? Speaker 1 (04:19): Yeah, I actually have always studied the vascular system because I was in a neuroscience lab that was focused on relationship between behavior and cardiovascular disease and basically neurovascular function and in particular as a clinical neuropsychologist we're involved in treating patients with neurocognitive disorders of aging, like dementia of Alzheimer's disease. And so I became interested in how these neurovascular factors may contribute to those diseases and to cognitive decline from those experiences. Speaker 2 (04:54): This sounds like a very complex system. What happens to it as we age? Speaker 1 (04:58): So as we get older, most people will develop a number of different vascular changes or will be at risk for different age-related vascular diseases. The most common is hypertension or high blood pressure. As we get older, the odds of developing high blood pressure just go up and up, and ultimately if you live long enough, most people will develop hypertension at some point. The majority of people over the age 65 have high blood pressure. And so that has to do with changes in your overall vascular system that can lead to a hardening or stiffening of the arteries and development of specific changes in the way the blood vessels of the brain work, which can damage the blood-brain barrier, lead to leakage of blood into the brain, decreased blood flow to the brain. And also what we've found is that older adults, their micro blood vessels don't dilate as well, and so they need to be able to dilate in order to provide more blood flow as needed to support brain health. Speaker 2 (06:11): It sounds like you know a lot about what's happening and the inner workings of our brain. Have updated imaging technologies improved our understanding of the role of these small blood vessels, and what can you tell us about your research in this area? Speaker 1 (06:24): Yes, so brain MRI has been very useful because it's usually relatively non-invasive, and we can use MRI to actually study the functioning of these microscopic blood vessels that would be otherwise very difficult to study. And we can actually visualize some microscopic changes such as small bleeds in the brain because they have this blooming artifact on brain MR. So we can see things that are microscopic, and we can study how the blood vessels can dilate or constrict using brain MRI. And we can study whether anything is leaking from the blood into the brain using brain MRI. So there's a lot more that is happening in MRI science that we're constantly monitoring and trying to incorporate into our studies. So I think there will be further advances, and we'll be able to study brain blood vessels even better in the future. Speaker 2 (07:19): And when you look at brain blood vessels, are you looking , particularly, at these microscopic ones? Speaker 1 (07:24): Yeah, we study the blood flow through these microscopic vessels and also whether or not they're leaking the leakiness of these vessels. Speaker 2 (07:32): I listened to a talk you gave, and you mentioned something called a neurovascular unit. What role does that play in brain health or brain dysfunction? Speaker 1 (07:41): It's a relatively newer concept that sort of springs off of the fact that again, there's a blood vessel for every neuron in your brain. It becomes clear when you understand how dense the micro vasculature is in the brain, that really it can't be totally separated from the functioning of the neurons themselves. When an area of your brain becomes active and neurons increase their activity, they need more blood flow, more nutrients, more clearance of waste, more oxygenation. And so they actually send a signal to other cells that control how much blood flow is happening, how much blood flow is coming to the vessels. So the blood vessels and the neurons are connected and communicating with each other. And so it's become clear that there's really this micro organ that we call the neurovascular unit, which is comprised of the blood vessel cells themselves, the neurons and other support cells, astrocytes, pericytes. And so all these different cells work together as a unit to make sure that blood flow meets the neurons' metabolic demand. Speaker 2 (08:50): And when this isn't working correctly, why is early detection of dysfunction in this area so important? Speaker 1 (08:56): Yeah, it's extremely important because if you think about it, when you have a problem with the blood vessel that could predate the actual injury to the brain, you can have dysfunctional blood vessels, but that doesn't mean you have any brain damage yet. You just have vascular disease. The blood vessels have a disease happening within them, but that can ultimately lead to death of the brain tissue. And in the brain, once tissue is dead, those neurons died. They're not replaced, and the brain can kind of rewire itself, but it can't really regrow that brain tissue. So the idea is if you cannot detect the blood vessel problem before the brain injury has happened, then you could intervene and prevent irreversible brain damage. Speaker 2 (09:47): That sounds important. How would somebody know? How do you test for blood vessel function? Speaker 1 (09:52): So, as I mentioned, we're using brain MRI technology. We're also working on blood tests. There's different markers people are interested in. It's still, you know, at the research phase, but we have the ability to quantify how well your blood vessels are responding to stimuli, how much blood flow you have into sensitive areas of your brain that are very important for memory and other mental functions and whether those vessels are leaking, which could lead to, again, irreversible brain damage. Speaker 2 (10:27): What can we do to improve our vascular health? Speaker 1 (10:30): So the number one thing is, well first of all to monitor your vascular health through going to see your physician so that you can catch cardiovascular risk factors early. If your blood pressure is elevated, if you have a problem with your cholesterol levels, if you're pre-diabetic or diabetic, it's extremely important that those cardiovascular risk factors are caught early and are well controlled and treated right away. If they are, they're not likely to lead to brain damage, but if they're left untreated, then you have a very high risk of this ultimately damaging your brain. The other thing is basic stuff that you would do for heart health is also good for brain health. So things like a good healthy diet, exercise. Physical activity doesn't have to be running marathons. Moderate levels of physical activity are helpful for the blood vessels in your brain. Speaker 2 (11:31): That's certainly a message we've heard on this podcast before: what's good for the heart is good for the brain. I think most people are familiar with the idea of high or low blood pressure, but you're looking at something called blood pressure variability. What is that, and what do we know about its connection to dementia risk? Speaker 1 (11:48): Yeah, so as I mentioned, many people over the age of 65 are going to have high blood pressure, and those rates just go up and up. But the research has shown that once you're over 65, if you have high blood pressure, develop high blood pressure, and as long as it's being treated, your actual blood pressure level doesn't really correlate with dementia risk very much. I mean, it needs to be treated; that's important. We know that. But beyond that, where you're at with your blood pressure as an older adult hasn't been very predictive of things like brain degeneration, dementia. But what we've observed is that, even if you are treated and even if you are treated pretty aggressively, have have very low blood pressure with treatment, the variability in your blood pressure day to day, month to month, year to year, and sometimes even beat to beat the variability in your blood pressure is predictive of dementia risk. So higher levels of blood pressure variability are bad, even if you have very well controlled blood pressure levels. And this is important because currently we only treat average blood pressure. There is no treatment for variability in blood pressure. So it's a new area that we should try to look into controlling to see if we can prevent dementia in people who have high variation, even if they're already treated for hypertension. Speaker 2 (13:18): And are the traditional treatments effective? Has your research revealed anything about blood pressure medications and whether they can affect variability? Speaker 1 (13:27): Yeah, we're just now starting to do this work. It's complicated because there's many different things that affect blood pressure variability, and we need to do a lot more research. But it's already known that medications that are longer lasting, drugs that have a longer half-life or have longer term effects, for example, those tend to be better at keeping variability low in addition to keeping your blood pressure levels low. And that makes sense, right? If the drug is wearing off, you know, after a short period of time or by the end of the day, then you would expect to have more variation between doses. And so we plan to do more research on the different types of blood pressure medicines, the classes, specific agents, and we'll call their pharmacokinetic properties, how long they last in your blood, the half-life and so forth. But also adherence to blood pressure medication if people skip a dose or they're taking it at the wrong time of day–that kind of thing can also affect blood pressure variability. Speaker 2 (14:28): And is this research that's still in the lab stage, or is this informing clinical practice yet? Speaker 1 (14:36): Well it's clinical research,  so we're studying human beings, older adults from the community who are taking blood pressure medications and that kind of thing. So it should, you know, our findings will be of value to clinicians, I think. And they're very interested in anything as it relates to blood pressure medicines because they're dispensing these drugs all the time in such a common condition. Speaker 2 (14:58): We have talked to Mara Mather about heart rate variability in this podcast, and I know that's a big area of research for her. Is there a connection between heart rate variability and blood pressure variability? Speaker 1 (15:11): Yeah, they're different things, but they are connected in the sense that your body tries to maintain steady blood pressure. It's not necessarily a good thing to have your blood pressure fluctuating all the time. And one of the ways that that happens, just homeostatically with normal functioning of your physiology, is changes in heart rate can help to modulate blood pressure. So they are related in terms of your cardiovascular system, but they're distinct. High heart rate variability is probably a good thing in relation to better health, whereas high blood pressure variability is a bad thing. Speaker 2 (15:48): This is a little bit of a subject change, but can damage blood vessels repair or regenerate themselves? And what might this mean for cognitive decline? Speaker 1 (15:58): Yeah, so anytime you receive any kind of injury, including a brain injury, the blood vessels and the tissue goes through a regeneration, healing restoration process. And in this case, usually it's the branching of additional vessels off of the existing vasculature. This is a process called angiogenesis, generating new branch points off of the blood vessel. So, if somebody has a stroke for example, you're gonna have a large piece of brain tissue that has been destroyed by not getting any blood flow. There's going to be a healing process that's gonna happen there, and there's gonna be some regrowth of branches of neurons as the brain kind of rewires itself and people healing from a stroke. And that has to be supported by branching off of blood vessels. So I said the neurons are very dependent on blood flow. So they work together during wound healing. And so yes, we certainly have an interest in this process since it's likely ongoing if you have some kind of microvascular damage happening, and we wanna understand more about whether it could be of benefit or it could go wrong and potentially cause harm and so forth. So we're studying this angiogenesis process in people with cognitive impairment. Speaker 2 (17:18): And can you tell me a little bit about how you're studying it? Speaker 1 (17:21): Yes. So we have lots of different projects happening. We are studying these cells that are in your blood circulation and come from different parts of your body, and they're very important in this angiogenesis process. They can actually form new blood vessels to replace damaged or dysfunctional ones. And so we can take blood from, again, older adults in the community who may or may not have different levels of vascular damage in their brains. And we can grow these cells in a dish and try to better understand whether they're functioning well, whether they're able to form blood vessels the way they're supposed to or if there's something wrong with that process. Speaker 2 (18:06): Is this what you're talking about when you say growing a brain in the lab? Speaker 1 (18:09): Yeah, so I've partnered with a bioengineering team that grows these micro brains, little brains in a dish. And what we can do now, and this is our new initiative we just started, is we can take blood from our participants and actually grow their brain vasculature in a dish. So these brain micro vessels that we're studying with brain MRI, we can actually grow them in the dish from these blood samples because we can grow these specialized cells that I'm referring to. They'll grow blood vessels in a dish, and we can see how they function. Are they forming blood vessels that are leaking? Are they forming blood vessels that are not branching properly or have other kinds of dysfunctional properties that don't support blood flow and so forth? And then we can tie that back to what's happening with that person's brain MRI. Do they have leaky blood vessels in their brains? Do they have proper blood flow on brain MRI or not? And so by doing this process, we can actually, the goal is to develop this sort of personalized medicine approach to try and better diagnose and treat brain blood vessel problems. Speaker 2 (19:19): So everybody's brain grows differently in a dish depending on what you're putting in? Speaker 1 (19:25): Yeah, this is what we're testing. So just let me give you a concrete example. If somebody has cognitive impairment and we do a brain MRI and we see that, sure enough, they have leaky blood vessels, might it be the case that this regeneration process isn't working in that person? So we could take their blood and grow a little mini brain that has their brain blood vessels in it and see whether they're leaking or not. If they are leaking, then it suggests that perhaps there's something wrong with this regeneration process, and we can actually try out different drugs in the dish and treat that person's micro brain with different potential therapies and see if any of them work. And then that might give us a clue as to how to fix the problem. Speaker 2 (20:07): Wow, that's really exciting. Is there anything you wanna add or any of your other research studies that you wanna give us an overview of?  Speaker 1 (20:14): Yeah, I think the only other thing I would wanna highlight, something that I'm really excited about that we've made a number of discoveries on and are continuing to, and we actually have some papers just now coming out, is this connection between memory decline and dementia and the functioning of these tiny blood vessels, these micro vessels. We've continued to find that the memory centers in the brain, which are the same areas that are affected by Alzheimer's disease and that degenerate in neurodegenerative disease that causes a really bad memory problem and dementia in older adults, the microvessels in those areas are dysfunctional in people who are at genetic risk for Alzheimer's. And in people who have memory problems, we found that they're leaking. We found that they don't dilate properly when we give them a stimulus that's supposed to dilate the blood vessels. And in some cases they have decreased blood flow. And so it's important because it demonstrates that there is this connection between the micro vessel function and neuro degeneration, which has, I think, eluded the research committee for a long time. We've known that there's a connection between vascular disease and neurodegeneration, but that's something I'm very interested in unpacking. Speaker 2 (21:33): Just to follow up on that, I know we hear a lot about the plaques and the tangles that are associated with Alzheimer's disease. Where does the vascular system come into play with this? Is there a connection? Speaker 1 (21:44): Yeah, so the way we normally think about Alzheimer's disease is that it has, as you mentioned, these two proteins that build up. You could form the plaques and the tangles, but also ever since Alois Alzheimer first described the disease, he noticed that there were problems with the blood vessels, a condition called cerebral amyloid angiopathy, where there's also a buildup of toxic proteins in the blood vessels. And it's been noticed again over the decades that a lot of cardiovascular risk factors are also risk factors for Alzheimer's, but no one was able to quite figure out how the blood vessel changes relate to Alzheimer's disease. And I think it's only just now that we're able to study these micro vessels with newer technology, that we're understanding that the micro vasculature is probably where this link is occurring. And what we've found is that there's a connection to the tangles, the tangles that are happening inside the neurons that lead to degeneration of those neurons. When you have microvascular dysfunction, you tend to see that kind of degeneration happening. Speaker 2 (22:52): Wow. This is a really interesting window into a whole new research direction that we haven't learned about before. So thank you very much for joining us today and explaining it all to us. Speaker 1 (23:01): Thank you. Speaker 2 (23:03): That wraps up this Lesson in Lifespan Health. Thanks to Professor Dan Nation for his time and expertise and to all of you for choosing to listen. Join us next time for another Lesson in Lifespan Health, and please subscribe to our podcast at lifespan health.usc.edu. Lessons in Lifespan Health is supported by the Nay Center for Healthspan Science.

Michelle Keller is an assistant professor of gerontology and the Leonard and Sophie Davis Early Career Chair in Minority Aging at the USC Leonard Davis School. She spoke to us about her research focused on improving patient-clinician communication, medication management, and the identification of dementia in minority older adults. Here are highlights from our conversation. On polypharmacy “When it comes to older adults and medications, it's important to understand that while medications can be incredibly beneficial for treating various conditions, they can also present really unique risks in this population. Older adults often take multiple medications at the same time. This is what we call polypharmacy.” “Older adults can be more sensitive to certain medications, they might experience side effects more intensely or even at lower doses than younger individuals. … This is particularly true for medications that affect our central nervous system, our brain, right? So, thinking about medications that are sedating or that have some sort of psychoactive effect. These medications, especially when they're combined together, can lead to things like confusion, dizziness and an increased risk of falls.” On her study of interventions to address polypharmacy “What we found in this study was that interventions to address polypharmacy can do a great job of reducing medications which are potentially harmful, identifying which medications people should be taking, improving the appropriateness of the medications people are taking, and reducing the total number of medications. So thinking about outcomes related to medications, what we have found is that it is really hard to change more downstream clinical outcomes, things like mortality, falls, hospitalizations, and emergency department visits. We did find that interventions that had multiple components; in other words, where a clinician is meeting face to face with a patient, reviewing their medications, reviewing all the chronic diseases that they have, along with their full patient history of what has happened to them in the past, those interventions tend to have a greater effect on mortality. So in other words, those types of interventions are reducing the risk of that someone actually dies.” “We also found that falls decrease when patients fully stop potentially harmful medications. These may be medications where somebody is feeling very dizzy or that make people feel very dizzy or drowsy, medications that may control somebody's blood sugar a little bit too much… So, their blood pressure's a little too low and they may actually fall as a result of these medications. But what we found was that stopping medications such as benzodiazepines, which are often taken for sleep or anxiety, can take months. These types of medications can have withdrawal effects. And so it's really, really important for somebody to work very closely with a healthcare provider to slowly taper these medications down to try to reduce those withdrawal effects.” “What we have found in working with other researchers and clinicians is that when patients team up with a healthcare provider, such as their primary care physician or clinical pharmacist who's embedded in the healthcare system, they really are able to stop taking some of these medications, and they feel a lot better. They feel much more energy, they're able to do the things that they really enjoy. They have a greater quality of life. But it's something that just takes time.” On the Empower Intervention for benzodiazepines “The typical recommendation for benzodiazepines is that they really should be taken short-term. These are medications that physicians typically recommend somebody take for a maximum of four weeks. What we have found in some of our research is that people are actually taking these for years, if not decades. And so stopping these medications can be quite challenging, and sometimes patients aren't fully convinced about why they should be stopping these medications. So, we took an intervention that started in Canada. It was developed by researchers in Quebec, and this is called the Empower Intervention. And what we did is we tailored it to a health system here in the US. The Empower Intervention is a really great brochure that contains some pretty striking facts about benzodiazepines.” “To give you some examples of benzodiazepine, these are like your Xanax, your Ativan, your Klonopin; these are the medications that we're talking about here. These brochures highlighted some really interesting facts, such as the fact that they can be harmful or linked to hip fractures and car accidents, and they can make people feel very tired and weak. What we did for this intervention is we sent these brochures to about 300 people along with a letter from their primary care physician, emphasizing that these medications can be harmful if taken for too long and especially among older adults. So what we did for this study is we compared patients who had received these brochures to patients who did not receive them. So they're going on usual care. Their physicians may have mentioned something to them, this was our control group, right? We didn't send anything to this particular group.” “We reviewed the medical records for both groups, and we looked at what kinds of medications they had been prescribed. And what we found is that patients who received the brochures were really activated. You know, when they received this messaging they would send messages in the patient portal to their physicians saying, ‘I didn't know that there were these risks of these medications. I would really like to come in and talk to you about them.' They made appointments to start tapering down these medications. What we found was for every 10 brochures that we sent, one person completely stopped taking these medications, which is a really good return on investment. This is a simple intervention. It has now been done in some other health systems in the US, particularly the Veterans Affairs health system.” On challenges in de-prescribing “I think some of the challenges that physicians face in de-prescribing is that de-prescribing takes a lot of time. As we all know, our primary care visits are very short; physicians, particularly in the primary care setting, are really rushed through their visits. And so I think having some of these conversations can just be something that's challenging. I also think they're quite complex conversations to have. They may not have received the training, for example, on how to taper a medication in a safe way so that a patient does not feel withdrawal effects. And I do think that there is something about getting physician buy-in … they are concerned [that] if they bring it up, the patient may be angry with them; they may be upset. And so I think really showing physicians ways in which this can be brought up that are really framed around ‘how do we center the patient's health and quality of life' – I think those are still questions that we as researchers are working on.” On the role of caregivers “It's really important for caregivers to be aware of the medications their loved ones are taking for many reasons. I think they can be amazing advocates in helping bring up potential side effects during doctor's visits. So, for example, if a caregiver is noticing that someone is feeling drowsy or doesn't have that much energy or is feeling dizzy, any sort of cognitive impairments such as those that may be seen in dementia, [they] may actually be a result of medication side effects. So, I think really becoming an advocate for somebody when seeing the doctor is one really important thing that caregivers can do.”  “Another area where caregivers can play a really important role is among people with dementia. People with dementia can have really some challenges in managing their medications. They may miss doses, they may take several medications twice, so they may have an overdose, or they may take the wrong medication altogether. So, caregivers can play really pivotal roles in helping somebody manage medication changes. There have been some early interventions looking at how to engage caregivers and persons with dementia. And some of the challenges that those researchers have seen is that there [is] often more than one person actually caring for somebody with dementia. And so, engaging that whole group of people who may be working with that person has been a real challenge.” On challenges facing patients with language barriers  “There is research showing that patients with language barriers have a greater risk of being hospitalized or re-hospitalized because of some of the communication challenges that come with medication management. So, you can imagine that, for example, older adults and their caregivers with language barriers may have a difficult time understanding medication instructions, which can lead to improper use. So when and how to take medications, recognizing potential side effects, understanding the purpose of each medication. And on top of that, you can layer on things, like if somebody doesn't have a great understanding of the condition. We call that disease literacy, or they may have health literacy issues.” “Right now, a mentee and I are working on this review of interventions that have been done specifically for patients with language barriers focused on improving medication management. And what we found was that interventions that really engaged people from communities with language barriers have been some of the most effective ways to really help people learn about which medications are working really well for them, how to improve medication adherence and other important outcomes. So, for example, an intervention that we found was researchers engaged folks in the community, co-created videos about medications in the community and why it was important to take them. And then when they actually distributed these interventions, they made sure that both in terms of the videos and some of the other educational materials that were handed out to folks that these really were very tailored both language-wise, literacy-wise, and culturally tailored to the communities that they were serving.” On new dementia medications and disparities in the diagnosis of dementia  “We are learning that older Black and Latino adults tend to get diagnosed with dementia once the disease has progressed more. And what that means is that they may not have received some of the kind of services that may help them or their families. So, for example, they may not have received enough support to be able to plan for the rest of their lives, or their families may not necessarily have received caregiving support early on in disease progress.” “I think in regard to these particular dementia medications, for example, if older adults are diagnosed with dementia at a place where they're no longer eligible to receive these medications, I think that'll be a really pretty serious health equity issue. So, I am really interested in how we make sure that people are getting diagnosed in time to make them eligible for really potentially beneficial treatments that may help them down the road.” On effective strategies for de-prescribing  “The most effective strategies that we see de-prescribing these medications is offering something else. So, for example, some of the most evidence for insomnia really exists around the use of using cognitive behavioral therapy. There's also been well-done systematic reviews that have found evidence that music or acupuncture may help people with insomnia. … I think one thing that's very important to think about when we de-prescribe medications is what else can we offer people? We're not just leaving people in the lurch and saying, ‘We're taking this away and we're leaving you with nothing.' We're actually able to offer them some non-pharmacological options as well.” Transcript Speaker 1 (00:02): One thing that's very important to think about when we de-prescribe medications is: what else can we offer people? We're not just leaving people in the lurch and saying, we're taking this away and we're leaving you with nothing. We're actually able to offer them some non-pharmacological options as well Speaker 2 (00:17): From the USC Leonard Davis School of Gerontology, this is Lessons in Lifespan Health, a podcast about the science and scientists improving how we live and age. I'm Orli Belman, Chief Communications Officer. On today's episode: how Professor Michelle Keller is working with older adults, caregivers and clinicians to manage the use and potential overuse of high risk medications. Michelle Keller is an Assistant Professor of Gerontology and the Leonard and Sophie Davis Early Career Chair in Minority Aging at the USC Leonard Davis School. Her research is focused on improving patient-clinician communication, medication management, and the identification of dementia in minority older adults. Hi, Michelle. Welcome and thank you for joining us today. Speaker 1 (01:06): Thank you so much for having me. Speaker 2 (01:08): I wanna start by asking you to talk about older adults and medications. We can all understand why medications are beneficial, but when it comes to older adults, what are some of the ways they can be problematic? Speaker 1 (01:19): Absolutely. So when it comes to older adults and medications, it's important to understand that while medications can be incredibly beneficial for treating various conditions, they can also present really unique risks in this population. So older adults often take multiple medications at the same time. This is what we call polypharmacy. Polypharmacy can increase the risk of drug interactions, right? So I like to think of the example of a suitcase, right? So imagine that you are packing up, getting ready to go to a trip. You start putting one thing into the suitcase, gets a little heavy, but you can manage it, right? You're suddenly adding more and more things and the suitcase is getting heavier and heavier to the point where you actually throw out your back at the airport, right? This is really what I think of when our bodies are kind of processing multiple medications at once with the additional challenge that some of these drugs may actually interact with one another. Speaker 1 (02:15): This is why it's so important for patients to talk to their doctors about the medications they're taking and the potential risks of each medication as people get older. I think one thing that people don't often think about is that when clinical trials are being done, often many clinical trials have excluded older adults. So we don't always have a great sense of how these medications work in older adult populations. And on top of that, they may exclude people with chronic conditions who are already taking a variety of other medications. And so as a result, what is happening now is that we have many people who are taking these medications, and it hasn't been well tested in these populations. It hasn't really been, you know, we don't have a clear sense of what is happening when all of these medications are being taken together. So polypharmacy can really increase the risk of drug interactions. Speaker 1 (03:09): As I was saying, when one medication affects another, and this can lead to a variety of adverse effects. So for example, if someone is taking multiple medications that make you feel drowsy or sleepy when you stack them on top of each other–thinking again about that suitcase, that can lead someone to have an increased risk of falls, potentially a fracture resulting from those falls, car accidents if they're feeling very drowsy or dizzy and other medications can increase our risk of internal bleeding. Another thing that's really important to think about for older adults is that as we get older, our bodies undergo various changes that can alter how our medications are absorbed, distributed, and actually excreted from the body. So for example, kidney and liver function can really decline with age. And so that can actually affect how well we process the drugs through our body. Speaker 1 (04:05): What that means is that drugs may stay in our bodies for longer periods of time leading to more side effects or adverse effects. The last thing I really wanted to bring up is this idea of how things change as we get older. So we maybe have been taking a medication for many years, but as we get older because of the changes that are happening within our body, some medications, which were fine for us when we were younger, are now gonna lead to more serious adverse effects now that we're older. So older adults can be more sensitive to certain medications, so they might experience side effects more intensely or even at lower doses than younger individuals. They might feel the effects. So this is particularly true for medications that affect our central nervous system, our brain, right? So thinking about medications that are sedating or that have some sort of psychoactive effect. Speaker 1 (05:04): These medications, especially when they're combined together, can lead to things like confusion, dizziness, and an increased risk of falls. One medication which people often take to help them sleep is Benadryl or Tylenol PM. This medication is actually a drug that's really recommended to avoid in older adults because it can be very sedating, making people feel very drowsy throughout the day. And it actually also has the effects on the brain and has been associated with a higher increased risk of dementia. So these are medications that again, we don't think of as generally harmful, but again, in an older person might really be an issue. Speaker 2 (05:46): That's a really helpful example 'cause that's just an over the counter medication that anyone can get, even without a doctor. You recently published two papers looking at interventions for addressing polypharmacy. The first one was a review of several studies. What did you learn in that review about the effectiveness or not of programs that are designed to reduce harmful polypharmacy? Speaker 1 (06:08): So we reviewed several systematic reviews. These are collections, as you mentioned, of numerous studies to understand how well interventions to address polypharmacy are working. Many of these interventions include a process called de-prescribing, which is the process of systematically reducing or stopping medications that may no longer be beneficial or might be causing harm, particularly in older adults. The goal of deprescribing is to optimize an individual's medication regimen to improve their overall health and quality of life. What we found in this study was that interventions to address polypharmacy can do a great job of reducing medications which are potentially harmful, identifying which medications people should be taking, improving the appropriateness of the medications people are taking, and reducing the total number of medications. So thinking about outcomes related to medications, what we have found is that it is really hard to change more downstream clinical outcomes. Speaker 1 (07:11): Things like mortality falls, hospitalizations, and emergency department visits. We did find that interventions that had multiple components, in other words where a clinician is meeting face-to-face with a patient, reviewing their medications, reviewing all the chronic diseases that they have along with their full patient history of what has happened to them in the past, those interventions tend to have a greater effect on mortality. So in other words, those types of interventions are reducing the risk that someone actually dies. We also found that falls decrease when patients fully stop potentially harmful medications. So these may be medications that make people feel very dizzy or drowsy medications that may control somebody's blood sugar a little bit too much and so they're actually feeling very low blood sugar or medications where their blood pressure is overly controlled. So their blood pressure's a little too low, and they may actually fall as a result of these medications. Speaker 1 (08:12): But what we found was that stopping medications such as benzodiazepines, which are often taken for sleep or anxiety, can take months. These types of medications can have withdrawal effects. And so it's really, really important for somebody to work very closely with a healthcare provider to slowly taper these medications down, to try to reduce those withdrawal effects. And because it takes so long to fully stop these medications, it's hard for studies to really find an effect unless they're following that person for a long period of time, which studies often don't. And so that's one of the challenges that we've seen in the research is that studies haven't followed people for enough time. Or at the time that they're measuring some of these clinical outcomes, not enough time has gone by to really see the full effects. So what we have found in working with other researchers and clinicians is that when patients team up with a healthcare provider such as their primary care physician or clinical pharmacist who's embedded in the healthcare system, they really are able to stop taking some of these medications and they feel a lot better. They feel much more energy, they're able to do the things that they really enjoy. They have a greater quality of life, but it's something that just takes time. Speaker 2 (09:28): And I imagine it's something you have to balance when someone really might need a medication to treat something and then managing the side effects. That's really interesting. I know the second study looked at a particular intervention and this was the use of educational materials for benzodiazepines. What led you to explore this area and what did you find? Speaker 1 (09:49): Great question. So benzodiazepines are, as I mentioned earlier, medications that are often used for sleep or anxiety. The typical recommendation for benzodiazepines is that they really should be taken short term. These are medications that, you know, physicians typically recommend somebody take for a maximum of four weeks. What we have found in some of our research is that people are actually taking these for years, if not decades. And so stopping these medications can be quite challenging and sometimes patients aren't fully convinced about why they should be stopping these medications. So we took an intervention that started in Canada. It was developed by researchers in Canada, in Quebec, and this is called the Empower Intervention. And what we did is we tailored it to a health system here in the US. The Empower Intervention is a really great brochure that contains some pretty striking facts about benzodiazepines. Speaker 1 (10:45): To give you some examples of benzodiazepine, these are like your Xanax, your Ativan, your Klonopin. These are the medications that we're talking about here. These brochures highlighted some really interesting facts such as the fact that they can be harmful or linked to hip fractures and car accidents and they can make people feel very tired and weak. What we did for this intervention is we sent these brochures to about 300 people along with a letter from their primary care physician, emphasizing that these medications can be harmful if taken for too long and especially among older adults. So what we did for this study is we compared patients who had received these brochures to patients who did not receive them. So kind of they're going on their usual care, their physicians may have mentioned something to them. This was our control group, right? We didn't send anything to this particular group. Speaker 1 (11:40): We reviewed the medical records for both groups and we looked at what kinds of medications they had been prescribed. And what we found is that patients who received the brochures were really activated. You know, when they received this messaging, they would send messages in the patient portal to their physicians saying, I didn't know that there were these risks of these medications. I would really like to come in and talk to you about them. They made appointments to start tapering down these medications. What we found was for every 10 brochures that we sent, one person completely stopped taking these medications, which is a really good return on investment. This is a simple intervention. It has now been done in some other health systems in the US, particularly the Veterans Affairs health system. And you know, groups have found similar effects. We also found that the probability that someone in the intervention group completely stopped their medications was about 10% greater compared to the group that did not get the brochure. Speaker 1 (12:41): So again, you know, for a cheap simple intervention, we were pretty excited about these results. What's been really interesting is I just came back from two conferences, the US De-Prescribing Research Network and the Society for General Internal Medicine Annual Meeting. And we find that other researchers are also finding that engaging patients in reducing these potentially harmful medications is actually one of the most effective forms of deprescribing. There have been plenty of studies where researchers have actually engaged physicians and those have not been as successful. So what I'm really excited about in terms of thinking about future interventions is, how do we really engage patients in learning about what are the best options for them to manage their health? Speaker 2 (13:28): So you just said that physicians, it's been a little harder to see change in their prescribing behaviors. What do we know about ways they can introduce the idea of reducing or stopping a medication? Speaker 1 (13:39): Yeah, I think it's a great question. I think communicating when, how and why a medication should be reduced or stopped can be really challenging. What researchers have found is that when physicians focus on improving a patient's quality of life, that is what is most effective. So for example, thinking about stopping or reducing certain medications can give somebody more energy, help them move around better, they're not feeling as unsteady on their feet or dizzy. They can think more clearly because they're no longer feeling feelings of brain fog or sleepiness or drowsiness. I think these can be some really effective messages. I think some of the challenges that physicians face in de-prescribing is that de-prescribing takes a lot of time. As we all know, our primary care visits are very short. Physicians, particularly in the primary care setting, are really rushed through their visits. And so I think having some of these conversations can just be something that's challenging. Speaker 1 (14:41): I also think they're quite complex conversations to have. They may not have received the training, for example, on how to taper a medication in a safe way so that a patient does not feel withdrawal effects. And I do think that there is something about getting physician buy-in, in terms of, they are concerned about, you know, if they bring it up, the patient may be angry with them, they may be upset. And so I think really showing physicians ways in which this can be brought up that's really framed around, how do we center the patient's health and quality of life? I think those are are still questions that we as researchers are working on. Speaker 2 (15:17): We've talked about physicians and obviously patients themselves. How about caregivers? What role can they play in helping address some of these issues? And are there interventions that especially aim to include them? Speaker 1 (15:28): Yeah, great question. I think it's really important for caregivers to be aware of the medications their loved ones are taking. For many reasons. I think they can be amazing advocates in helping bring up potential side effects during doctor's visits. So for example, if a caregiver is noticing that someone is feeling drowsy or doesn't have that much energy or is feeling dizzy, any sort of cognitive impairments, right? So, such as those that may be seen in dementia, may actually be a result of medication side effects. So I think really becoming an advocate for somebody when seeing the doctor is one really important thing that caregivers can do. Another area where caregivers can play a really important role is among people with dementia. People with dementia can have some challenges in managing their medications. They may miss doses, they may take several medications twice, so they may have an overdose or they may take the wrong medication altogether. So caregivers can play really pivotal roles in helping somebody manage medication changes. There have been some early interventions looking at how to engage caregivers and persons with dementia. And some of the challenges that those researchers have seen is that there are often more than one person actually caring for somebody with dementia. And so engaging that whole group of people who may be working with that person has been a real challenge. Speaker 2 (16:54): Are there particular challenges faciing under-resourced communities or populations with language barriers? I imagine some of this communication is even harder in these cases. What do you think needs to be done in these areas? Speaker 1 (17:09): Absolutely. There is research showing that patients with language barriers have a greater risk of being hospitalized or rehospitalized because of some of the communication challenges that come with medication management. So you can imagine that for example, you know, older adults and their caregivers with language barriers may have a difficult time understanding medication instructions, which can lead to improper use. So when and how to take medications, recognizing potential side effects, understanding the purpose of each medication. And on top of that, you can layer on things like, you know, if somebody doesn't have a great understanding of the condition, right? So we call that disease literacy. Or they may have health literacy issues, or on top of that, we may even have literacy concerns where the person does not know how to read or has a limited ability to read. So layering on all these challenges can really make it difficult to both manage your medications and communicate with physicians about their concerns or side effects regarding medications. Speaker 1 (18:14): Right now, mentee and I are working on this review of interventions that have been done specifically for patients with language barriers focused on improving medication management. And what we found was that interventions that really engaged people from communities with language barriers have been some of the most effective ways to really help people learn about which medications are working really well for them, how to improve medication adherence and other important outcomes. So for example, an intervention that we found was researchers engaged folks in the community. They co-created videos about medications in the community and why it was important to take them. And then when they actually distributed these interventions, they made sure that both in terms of the videos and some of the other educational materials that were handed out to folks, that these really were very tailored both language wise, literacy wise, and culturally tailored to the communities that they were serving. Speaker 2 (19:16): Another area I wanna touch on is your work improving doctor patient communication. And I'm curious if your background as a newspaper reporter has informed your research in this area, and what are some of the ways that patients lose out when communication is not clear? Speaker 1 (19:32): So I think a lot about how we can help clinicians communicate complex information about medications and other treatments in simple, accessible ways. Which is really something that I aimed to do as a reporter, right? When I worked as a reporter, oftentimes I would take studies from medical journals and I would break them down in a way that was really easy and accessible for the public to read. And so that is really something that I'm very interested in. How do we help clinicians do the same thing? Or if we're designing interventions for patients, how do we do something similar? How do we make the risks and benefits of medications very clear to people so that they're able to make the best decisions about those for their health? So one area that I'm really interested in is these new medications for dementia that have come out, which are the anti amyloid medications. These medications have some pretty potentially serious side effects such as brain bleeding and swelling. And I'm working on a research proposal thinking about, how do we best present these medications to patients in a way that they feel like they're able to make the best decisions for themselves and their loved ones? I think it'd be really critical, particularly in terms of health equity for people to have a very good sense of how these medications can potentially help but also understand the serious risks associated with the new dementia medications. Speaker 2 (21:02): And speaking of dementia, I think you've also looked at the diagnosis of dementia and whether or not there's differences in minority populations. Is that something you can tell us a little bit about? Speaker 1 (21:14): Absolutely. So that is an area of research that I'm actually just starting to get into because what we are learning is that older black and Latino adults tend to get diagnosed with dementia once the disease has progressed more. And what that means is that they may not have received some of the services that may help them or their families. So for example, they may not have received enough support to be able to plan for the rest of their lives, or their families may not necessarily have received caregiving support early on in disease progress. I think in regards to these particular dementia medications, for example, if older adults are diagnosed with dementia at a place where they're no longer eligible to receive these medications, I think that'll be a really pretty serious health equity issue. So I am really interested in, how do we make sure that people are getting diagnosed in time to make them eligible for really potentially beneficial treatments that may help them down the road? So I'm thinking about how do we train physicians who are working in under-resourced settings, which may serve large proportions of black and Latino older adults, how to diagnose dementia in a primary care setting, and working with some colleagues in the Los Angeles Department of Health Services on how we can think about making physicians feel more confident, their diagnosis of dementia among older adults. Speaker 2 (22:40): And I wanna go back to sleep and anxiety because I know that's something that affects so many people at all ages. If these interventions are successful and people are able to stop taking some of these medications, are there strategies or interventions that we know might work for helping them with the initial conditions they were struggling with to begin with? Speaker 1 (23:01): Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good question because sleep and anxiety are things that can really affect somebody's quality of life and functioning, right? The most effective strategies that we see de-prescribing these medications is offering something else. So for example, some of the most evidence for insomnia really exists around using cognitive behavioral therapy. There's also been really well done systematic reviews that have found evidence that music or acupuncture may help people with insomnia. So I think one thing that's very important to think about when we de-prescribe medications is what else can we offer people? We're not just leaving people in the lurch and saying, we're taking this away and we're leaving you with nothing. We're actually able to offer them some non-pharmacological options as well. Speaker 2 (23:48): That's a really helpful note to end on. Thank you for joining us, and I know that people are really gonna benefit from learning about all you've been working on and all your work that's gonna continue in the future. Speaker 1 (23:59): Thank you so much for having me today. It's been a real pleasure. Speaker 2 (24:02): That wraps up this lesson in Lifespan Health. Thanks to Professor Michelle Keller for her time and expertise and to all of you for choosing to listen. Join us next time for another Lesson in Lifespan Health, and please subscribe to our podcast@lifespanhealth.usc.edu. Lessons in Lifespan Health is supported by the Ney Center for Healthspan Science.

Find me and the show on social media by searching the handle @DrWilmerLeon on X (Twitter), Instagram, and YouTube. Our Facebook page is www.facebook.com/Drwilmerleonctd All our episodes can be found at CTDpodcast.com.   This week's episode features Ray McGovern. Former CIA analyst and foreign policy advocate in Washington, DC. He join us to give some history and context on the Israeli/Hamas war.   TRANSCRIPT:   Speaker 1 (00:42): Connecting the dots with Dr. Wilmer Leon, where the analysis of politics, culture, and history converge. Dr. Wilmer Leon (00:51): Welcome to the Connecting the Dots podcast with Dr. Wilmer Leon. I'm Wilmer Leon. Here's the point. We have a tendency to view current events as though they occur in a vacuum, failing to understand the broader historical context in which most events take place. During each episode of this broadcast, my guests and I will have probing, provocative, and in-depth discussions that connect the dots between current events and the broader historic context in which they occur. This will enable you to better understand and analyze the events that impact the global village in which we live on today's episode. According to my guest self-proclaimed Zionist, Joe Biden, with no witts about him is assuring the destruction of Zionist apartheid Israel as corrupt US Intel leaders have unleashed the dogs of war. We cannot be bystanders, quote, indifference to evil is more insidious than evil itself. That's Rabbi Abraham Heschel for insight into this. Let's turn to my guest. He leads the speaking truth to power section of Tell the Word a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Savior in inner city Washington. He served as a CIA analyst for 27 years. His duties including chairing the National Intelligence Estimates and preparing the President's daily brief. And he also ran the Russia desk for the CIA. And in January of 2003, he co-created veteran intelligence professionals for sanity. He is Ray McGovern. Ray, welcome and let's connect some dots. Ray McGovern (02:34): Thanks, Dr. Leon Dr. Wilmer Leon (02:36): Ray, you recently published a piece at raymcgovern.com entitled, can You give a brief synopsis of what's happening in Israel? And it's based upon a response to a question from, I believe your youngest daughter. She asked you to explain to her what's happening in occupied Palestine and it opens as follows. I was nine years old, 1948 when there was huge celebration in the Bronx at the founding of the state of Israel. No one told me that Arabs had lived on that land for centuries and were displaced by force. Tens of thousands of them crammed into postage stamped Gaza and now host to millions of Palestinians. Ray, I'll throw it to you. Why was it so important for you to write this piece? Ray McGovern (03:30): Wilmer? Frankly, I was really encouraged that one of my children, and we have five, was interested in knowing what I thought about this. (03:43) Prophets are without renown in their hometowns and sometimes in their own homes. So when Miriam asked me this question, I said, well, she wants a short, concise paragraph, so I'll try and I failed. I couldn't do it In one concise paragraph, I said, look, here's somebody who's genuinely interested. She has three young children. She's got a very busy life, but she knows that this is important. So let me explain some of the background to this. And so I started out first with the, so-called religious justification for what Israel did. Well in occupying lands already occupied by Palestinian people for centuries before I have been in the West Bank, I have been in Israel at one point, we went up a hill to a Jewish settlement. This is about eight years ago now. At the bottom of the hill, there was devastation. There was no running water, there was poverty of an extreme kind. (05:03) When we went up to the top of the hill, whoa, you look like a golf course for God sake, green lawns being watered, okay? And a rabbi from Cleveland telling us why he's entitled to be there as a settler. So one of my colleagues, we were on a little delegation, said, well, a rabbi, how do you explain the conditions right down at the bottom of this hill in Palestinian territory, and you're beautiful settlement up here. And he said, without hesitation. Well, God promised us this land. Now, I had heard that before and I know not enough about the what's so called the Old Testament, the Hebrew scriptures, but I knew this. I knew that they depend on Deuteronomy 15 four for that. So I basically, rabbi, please cite the part of scripture that justifies your settling on this land. And he said, that's easy. He said, Yahweh said to the Jewish people, you shall have this land flowing with milk and honey. (06:22) And I said, continue, rabbi, continue. And he said, what do you mean continue? I said, well, you're only giving us half of the deal, right? He said, well, what do you mean? I said, read the rest of the verse. So there shall be no poor among you. He said, oh, you forgot to. So it was a deal. It was, well, you might call it a covenant. All right. You shall have this land so that there shall be no poor among you. And I thought that Miriam should know this, that when she hears people say, oh, wait a second, I promised this stuff. It was a deal. And the Israelis, of course, have broken that deal in a scurrilous way. So that's the way I started out. I went into some of the more recent history. But go back to the Hebrew scriptures. It's very clear what God's promise was. Assuming you think this is important. And of course the settlers think it's important. That's why they always cited Dr. Wilmer Leon (07:28): Ray two things. One, it would be one thing if the scripture said, I will give you this land of milk and honey so that you will not be poor. But that's not what it says. It says so that there will not be poor among you. And there's also a reason why those individuals are called settlers. And there's also a reason why that region is called the occupied territories. Ray McGovern (08:06): That's right, Wilmer. And it's an embarrassing history we Americans have because we were settlers on the land, peopled by Native Americans, and we kind of pushed them aside just as Israel has pushed the Palestinians aside. So it's not a happy history. But when you're a settler, well, that's a nice way of putting that. You're coming from outside and you've displaced people who have a right to live on those lands. So as I said in the beginning of this piece, I came from the Bronx. I lived there for my first 22 years before I went in and served as an army officer. Now, when I was nine years old, 19 eight, oh man, it was sort of like the 4th of July, 10 times over Israel had a home, right? And as I noted at the beginning, well, nobody told me. Well, he told me that it was not a land for people, a land without any people in it. (09:15) Well, there were people in it. And that's the basic part of all this. And if you go more recent in the history, I was serving as a CIA analyst in 1967 when the Israelis attacked Egypt and Syria decimated their Air Force and enlarged Israeli territory to include parts of Syria, to include the West Bank, to include the Sinai, to include Gaza, lots of places to include, right? Okay. Now we thought, or we were told that Egypt was about to attack Israel. Well, that was the legends put forward for many years after 1967. But finally, man, be a former Israeli prime minister, got up before an audience in Washington in 1982 and call it chutzpah, call it honesty. Call it a cleansing of his conscience. But this is what he said. It's not long. I want to read it so that I don't mess it up. All right, man. Bein former Israeli prime minister quote, in June, 1967, we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the side eye approaches do not prove that SSO is already really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. (11:07) It was duly reported in the New York Times and people in New York and elsewhere where I was living. Oh, isn't that interesting? So the Israelis said, well, that's called aggression. That's calling creating Libens home. Okay? Not terribly dissimilar from what happened in the thirties at the hands of the Nazis in Germany. And so that's the truth behind all this. Now, how did the UN react then back in 67 when all this happened? There was the unanimous security council resolution, resolution two, four, two, that call for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories. Was it a close vote? It was unanimous. Okay. Did the Israelis do that? No, they didn't do that. Why didn't they do that? Because of chutzpah? Because the Israelis can always depend on the United States to defend them no matter what they do. And so they have occupied all those territories. They gave back the Sinai to Egypt when there was an agreement under Jimmy Carter, but the Sinai is not worth keeping. (12:17) Actually. Now the people in Gaza are bearing the brunch of this occupation, this oppression, and as I quoted Rabbi Heschel, one of my very favorite people who marched with Dr. King back in the late sixties, that we're not all guilty, but we are all responsible. How did I put it? How did he put it? Indifference to evil is worse than evil itself. That's what we have to measure up to this time. There's been evil in Gaza, and we have to make sure that we don't one sidedly accuse one side and give the other a free ride, so to speak. As has been the case since the US reacted to the UN resolution, it didn't do diddly, as we say in the Bronx to enforce it. Dr. Wilmer Leon (13:23): There's a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of disinformation and outright lies that are being used in support of the Zionist US narrative of this illegal occupation of Palestine, as well as the genocide of Palestinians. I want to read a brief statement and then show a map before I come back to you. Here's a statement. This is from the foreign office, the 2nd of November, 1917, and it reads, dear Lord Rothschild, I have much pleasure in conveying to you on behalf of his Majesty's government. The following declaration of sympathy with Jewish scientist aspirations, which has been submitted to and approved by the cabinet, his majesty's government view, with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object. It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done, which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. (14:36) I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation, yours, Arthur James Balfour. Now this is known as the Balfour Declaration. The British government decided in 1917 to endorse the establishment of a Jewish home in Palestine, not Israel, Palestine. After discussions within the cabinet and the consulting with the Jewish leaders, the decision was made public. And we have this letter to that point. Here's a map from National Geographic from 1947 where you can see Lebanon, Syria, trans Jordan, Egypt, and Palestine. Israel is not on this map. Why? Because contrary to the dominant Western narrative, Israel did not exist. That's why we know now Israel is actually the occupied territories. Ray people will have a tendency to try to categorize this conversation as anti-Semitic, which is why if we can put the map back up one more time, I want to be sure that people see this map. This is history. This is not narrative. This is not rhetoric. This is history. Ray McGovern. Ray McGovern (16:14): Well, history can be very antisemitic. (16:22) I mean, it's hard to realize that most Americans are blissfully unaware of all this. The maps show the story. Now, the situation right now is different. How is it different? Well, the Soviets, I used to be a Soviet analyst analyst of Russians, foreign policy. The Soviets used to talk about a concept called the correlation of forces. Now, it's not rocket science, okay? It had to do with the balance of power in the world. Now, guess what folks? The balance of power in the world has shifted. People are now talking about a shift from a unipolar world, which is what the US was since World War ii, and particularly since the Soviet Union fell apart to a multipolar world where other countries are allowed to have a say in these things. Well, I look at it as a bipolar world, and I would refer more recently just to the yesterday's vote at the un, where the US was the only one to veto a resolution calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, calling for the Israelis, not to ethnically cleanse Gaza as they apparently still intend to do. (17:53) So what's my point? My point is that everyone, not even the British voted with us this time, okay? 12 to one was there was two abstentions. So what am I saying? I'm saying that the Arab countries, well, here's an example. The Arab ambassadors in Beijing asked the Chinese, please get us all together. We would need to talk about what's going to happen in Gaza. And the Chinese did. The head of Iran calls up arch rival the head of Saudi Arabia and says, we got to do something about this. And they have a cordial conversation. Okay? Next thing you know, he is talking to the head of Hamas. He's talking to the head of Hezbollah, okay? So there are things that are happening here where it's where the deck is being stacked heavily against the United States, and it's sat traps like the UK and France and Germany. They're not very long for this world, those governments, okay? So what we have here is a condition where 20 years ago, the US could work its will. Okay? No longer can it. Hamas is well-equipped. I don't think that killing civilians is a good idea, nor do I. When you look at it or when you look at it, you say, well, was this unprovoked? (19:31) Unprovoked seems to be the adjective of choice here. Just as PCIs decision to defend his compatriots in the DBAs was not unprovoked, neither was Hamas' reaction here without making any moral judgements, which is something that intelligence analysts are not called to do. Actually, we can say you can understand this given the recent history and the more distant history that we've referred to earlier. Dr. Wilmer Leon (20:07): I'm very glad that you put it that way because a lot of times people misconstrue, and I'll just put this on a personal level. I'm not a former, not an intelligence analyst, but I am a political scientist, not a political operative. And so people have a tendency to misconstrue my explanation of events with my agreeing with the events, my saying, I understand why President Putin and Russia went into Ukraine. I understand it because I understand the history. I understand why Hamas took the actions that it did. I don't condone the killing of civilians. I don't condone the killing of children, but I understand why Hamas did what they did. If you could quickly, Tony Blinken, you were just talking about the shift from the unipolar to the multipolar world. Talk a little bit about Tony Blinken and this whole concept of the rules based order, because Tony Blinken in the Biden administration, they love to talk about the rules based order, but when you try to find a definition of it, you can't because it only exists in the mind of Tony Blinken. They rarely talk about international law. They always want to talk about the rules based order. Ray McGovern (21:46): You put your finger on it, the rules based international order, well, it's a contrived expression. It's meant to substitute for international law and the United Nations. It was invented by Blinken and Sullivan and Nolan, and I mean poin and Laro, the foreign minister have made fun of it. Well, tell us about this. We try to Google it, but could you please give us, can you give us a piece of paper to describe what the rules based into law? And of course they can. And what it means is what we say goes, we make the rules, and that's it. Dr. Wilmer Leon (22:30): And you follow our orders. Ray McGovern (22:33): People are getting wise to that increasing number of people witness the vote at the UN yesterday, 12 to one, the one being the United States. The saving grace here, as I say it, is that the UN is still being respected by China, by Russia, and by some of the other countries that are insisting that we abide by UN regulations. First and foremost in this context, security council resolution 2, 4, 2 of November 22nd, 1967 ordering is to relinquish control of the occupied territories that they seized in 1967. So what's the hope here? Well, the hope was yesterday. The US talks about Russia being isolated. Look, (23:34) And maybe just maybe these Zionists, and I'll use that word advisedly. I mean, Joe Biden has bragged about being a real dy in the world. Zionist, so has Blinken and Sullivan, the rest of them. Okay? What does that mean? That means the people that occupied the Palestinian Territories occupied by Palestinians for as just as Native Americans in our example, four centuries before, it doesn't make sense. And it's not going to make any headway no matter how much we invoke this rule space, international order. Thanks for raising that, because it's very telling how we thought that we could just invent a new phrase and substitute it for international law. And the UN Dr. Wilmer Leon (24:29): President Biden, when he went to the region on this, so-called Peacekeeping tour, wherever the heck he was supposed to be doing, he talked about peace. And to your point earlier on, not on this trip, but earlier on he was very clear, I am a Zionist. And then Tony Blinken goes and he says, I am here not only as the Secretary of State of the United States, but I'm here as a Jew. What message do you think that sends to the Arabs in the region who he allegedly is supposed to be trying to find some common ground with and bring about some type of peaceful resolution to this conflict? Ray McGovern (25:18): Well, I think the word is chutzpah and naivete. If blinken doesn't know how that goes over with the Arab leaders that he is talking to, he is hopelessly blind. Wait Dr. Wilmer Leon (25:35): A minute, wait a minute, Ray, does he care? Because what that I remember very clearly probably two years ago when Blinken went to Anchorage, Alaska to meet with the Chinese delegation, and the Chinese delegation got up and said, we're not going to sit here and let you lecture us. We're China. We don't have to sit here and listen to you. And they got up and walked out of the room. That to me, sounds eerily reminiscent or what just transpired with Tony Blinken in the Middle East sounds eerily reminiscent to what he tried to do with the Chinese. Ray McGovern (26:17): Well, Wilmer, you probably have seen President Biden reading from his little notes, even in a very short a session with Netanyahu. So who writes the notes? Dr. Wilmer Leon (26:33): Tony Ray McGovern (26:33): Blink. Well, Blinken writes the notes. Dr. Wilmer Leon (26:36): Victoria Newland. Ray McGovern (26:37): Victoria Newland. Now, what does Victoria Newland have in common? What Jacob Sullivan have in common? They're all of Jewish extraction. Now, should that ordinarily matter? No. Does it matter? Now? It happens to matter. Now we're talking about a Jewish home land created at the expense of the Palestinian people. We're talking about Zionism, which is a political movement, not a religion. So the three top people at the State Department have traditionally been Zionists, not only Jews, but Zionists. Now, this is not lost on the Middle East leaders or China or Russia. And you could see their hold on Biden from the very first part of his administration. The first thing he did, we got up and he said, now China, China's going to be, has aspirations to be the most powerful country in the world, not only economically, but strategically. That's not going to happen on my watch. (27:51) Okay? Next thing he does is he lets himself be set up by Stephanopoulos George Stephanopoulos, who says, now, Mr. President, do you think Putin's a killer? And by, oh, he's a killer. Okay? And then they meet with the Chinese at Anchorage and read him the riot act about the rules. Basically, the Chinese say, we know all about this. We spent a century throwing off your predecessors, the British selling with the gun diplomas. That's all the folks. And as you say, they didn't put up with it. So you have at the very outset of his administration laying down the line, look, were all powerful, which is not the case anymore. We're Zionists, which happens to be the case anymore. Let me introduce one sort of comment that Biden made without reading from his little cards there, I think was on the plane coming home yesterday. He said, I made a note of it. He says, I can understand why people in the Middle East region would not believe the Israelis, or that maybe the bombing of that hospital was not intentional. (29:17) Well, I can understand why the people of that region would not believe the Israeli. The question is why you believe him, Joe Biden, and whether now Jacob Sullivan, I have to tell you, people object to my saying Jacob Sullivan, but that's his first name. Okay? Just like remember Scooter Libby who worked for Janie. His first was Israel Libby. So why does he go by Scooter? Why does Jacob go by Jake? I don't know, but I can make a little guess here. Okay. Jacob Sullivan is Zionist as the Newlands and the Blinken of this world, and of course the president who styles himself as the supreme Zionist. What does that mean? Well, it means that it's over the US and Israel. It's just going to take a couple of months. Now for people to realize that, and the fear I have Wilmer, the fear I have is that there's too much at stake personally for President Biden and for Blinken and Nod and Sullivan and Nolan and Hunter Biden, there's too much at personal stake for them to go away quietly and acknowledge the new correlation of forces. (30:37) If they lose the wars, if they lose the election, they could end up in jail. The evidence is there, and court documents in sworn testimony, bribery, impeachment proceedings may go forward. So I'm always saying, I don't give a rat's patooty about what happens in impeachment considerations. What I care about is how they are likely to react to save their own patootie. And that introduces an element of instability and personal stake that worries me greatly. And it doesn't matter what worries McGovern greatly, I'm sure it worries Russian and Chinese leaders greatly too, and has them on tenterhooks as to what will happen over the next year. Dr. Wilmer Leon (31:29): When you look at the surveys right now, when you look at the polling data, the race for 2024 between President Biden and former President Trump, by most polls, is a dead heat, one or two points. It's within the margin of error. History tells us that countries tend not to shift leadership or change leadership in the midst of conflict slash war. You mentioned if they lose the election, I'm sorry, you mentioned if they lose the war, if they lose the election, does Joe Biden need this conflict in his mind in order to save his administration? Ray McGovern (32:19): I don't think Joe Biden is Compass Menis. I think that Blinken and Sullivan, Nolan, they are extremely Compass mentors. They have a lot to fear. Let's say that Trump wins election, as I said before, the evidence is out there, not only of bribery and those kinds of things, and Hunter Biden's laptop and the inclusion of corrupt former intelligence officials and all that kind of stuff. But Blinken was personally involved in arranging for Biden to win via a subterfuge. What do I mean? Well, when Hunter Biden's laptop was revealed and the scarless repeat stuff on, and his dealings with calling his father's brand name into, well, how did they decide to handle that was three weeks before the election. Oh, what happened? Well, by testimony to Congress, by a former acting director of the CIA, his name is Mikey Morell. He said, I got a call from Tony Blinken, and he said, the best way to handle the Hunter Biden laptop is could you get former intelligence directors to say that it has all the earmarks of a Russian intelligence disinformation operation? (33:56) And Mikey Mell said, sure, I can do that. Three days later, Mikey Morell has rounded up 50 count 'em, 50 former intelligence directors and very high officials, speaks pretty poorly of them, doesn't it? 50 plus Mikey Morrell, and he says 51 former intelligence directors, including four or five former directors of the CIA, as if that enhances their credibility. Say, this has all the earmarks, Russian intelligence, disinformation operation. Now, was that consequential? Well, all I know is that two days later, Joe Biden had his last debate with Trump, and Trump raised this. Biden said, oh, don't you know that this is in all the earmarks of a Russian intelligence operation? Now, why do I go into that detail? I mean, that should not have happened. Okay? I don't know whether that won the election for Biden or not, but you don't do these things. They have to be illegal, in my view. (35:09) So Blinken himself is on 10 hooks. He could be prosecuted, he could be put in jail, and Jacob Sullivan, just the word about him, he invented Russiagate, the non-existent Russian hacking of the DNC computer for Hillary Clinton's emails and all that stuff that showed that she had stolen the nomination for Bernie Sanders. That was Sullivan. He was a big campaign manager for Hillary Clinton. So that's all out there. Now, I don't know if Trump came in, and I will not comment on what I think of Trump. If he came in, he's not loath to hold these people accountable, and on this case, he's got the law behind him. So again, there's great incentive on the part of all these people preparing their notes for Joe Biden to keep the war going in Ukraine and not lose before the election, and to help the Israelis to the degree the US can still not lose in Gaza. The last one is not possible anymore. Neither is the first one. So what am I afraid of? I'm afraid that they will react according to this personal stick they have, and it's to happen before when you have this kind of personal stake and you have advisors like these guys who are saying, Joe, look, if we lose this, look what happens then. You don't have to write notes to Joe. He understands this. He's a politician, and that's what worries me. Sorry to carry on at that point. Dr. Wilmer Leon (36:52): I Ray McGovern (36:52): Think this is an important aspect. It's not really covered elsewhere. Dr. Wilmer Leon (36:58): You are former intelligence official, and you understand the subtleties of diplomacy. And one of the things that I find very interesting is when you listen to President Putin, when you listen to President Xi, when you listen to Raisi in Iran, they speak in very subtle undertones. So when Donald Trump assassinated, general Ray McGovern (37:29): Soleimani, Dr. Wilmer Leon (37:31): Soleimani, Iran said, we're going to retaliate, and a lot of people expected the retaliation to be coming shortly thereafter. It did not come well, as Tony Blinken was traversing the Middle East recently, the Iranian foreign minister was doing the same thing with his allies and released a statement saying, Israel, the time is up. Did that convey to you a not so subtle message that people need to be paying attention to? Ray McGovern (38:17): Well, it does, and that's really one outstanding aspect of what happened over the last week. The notion that the president of Iran would call up the leader of Saudi Arabia to coordinate on what they're going to do. I mean, that's a tectonic shift in the relationship between those two countries. And raci, the president of Iran has been traveling all around, and he's got, he talks to this area and he talks to the Egyptians, and actually the Egyptians and the Jordanians wouldn't even receive Joe Biden when he wanted to see them. So what we need to do is recognize, Dr. Wilmer Leon (39:13): And Mohammad bin Salman made Tony Blinken wait an entire day, actually overnight, because I guess he had gone fishing in somewhere in Saudi Arabia, and he was on a fishing trip in Saudi Arabia and couldn't be bothered. So he thinked Tony, again, from a diplomatic perspective, that's one of those not so subtle messages that says, I really don't feel I'd being bothered with you. Ray McGovern (39:43): And Saudi Arabia is very, very, very important, not only because of the oil, but because of the raro schmo that was going on with China and with others. So maybe the Saudi foreign minister was supervising some beheadings in the public square. You get pretty busy in Saudi Arabia when head start rolling, and I understand he did give Blinken access to a men's room there as he waited. So there's some niceties that were observed, but he gave away overnight. You don't do that with, at least you didn't use to do that with the Secretary of State of the United States of America, least of all. Would the Saudi Arabia's have done that? So that's just one little symptom of the tectonic shift in relations where us is no longer the unipolar power, but rather a bipolar with them with the United States. And I am an American citizen. I really mourn the fact that because they're own ineptitude and chutzpah that would put ourselves in this situation. And I dare say that the Israelis do what everyone thinks they're going to do. Now, it's going to be all hell to pay because the Iranians has Pua, Hamas, the Egyptians, the Hezbollah, the others, even the Saudis for are not going to sit around and tolerate the of 2 million people in Gaza. Dr. Wilmer Leon (41:39): Yemen isn't going to be too happy with this either. Ray McGovern (41:44): Yemen as well. Yeah. Dr. Wilmer Leon (41:46): So people watching this, people listening to this, they may be saying, wow, Wilmer, you and Ray are spending an awful lot of time talking about foreign policy, talking about the Middle East. We have homelessness in the United States. We have abject poverty. We have all these declines in the standard of living in the United States. Why spend so much time talking about this instead of talking about that? Ray McGovern (42:19): Well, because they're connected. As you well know, every billion you send to Ukraine, every billion you send to Israel is at the expense of these people. The poor people in our country that need all that kind of help, there shall be no poor among you. Well, that's a universal. That's a universal, in my view. It doesn't have to be a Hebrew scripture. I mean, the Christian, the Christian, and I say Judeo-Christian attitude toward justice Wiler. We have this American concept of justice where you have this blind lady of all people holding these scales and the images impartiality image, no favoritism to one or the other. Now, lemme tell you something, and your listeners, the Judeo-Christian, the biblical concept of justice is unbalanced and biased to the core in favor of the poor. The hated poor as the Old Testament called the very word in pre Aramaic for justice, denotes not connotes, denotes showing mercy to the poor. (43:46) Now, that used to be kind of observed, FDR, my father's favorite president, he cried when FDR died. He knew in his heart what he needed to do, poor people. He brought us out of that depression. There used to be a Democratic party that cared mostly about the poor. When I asked my father, I said, dad, what's the difference between a Democrat and a Republican? He said, all Democrats care about people. Okay, care about poor people. Well, that ain't the case anymore. They're all joined at the hip. And what do they care about? Stuffing their own pockets. What was really a revelation to me was when Pope Francis came to Congress 2015, I think it was, and there was a joint section, and he stands up there, and to his credit, Pope Francis says, and I quote, the main problem today is the blood soaked arms trade. Okay? The main problem today is the blood soaked arms trade. (45:04) Now what do those congressmen, what do the senators do? Oh, they go, they, oh, yeah, right? And he stood up, and then they looked in their pocket ship envelope from Raytheon was still there, and it went from Lockheed over here. I mean, it was giving hypocrisy a bad name, okay? These guys know what the message was, but they're so soaked in this money and this power that it's going to take a lot of us, a lot of us who care about the poor, and a lot of us who can show opportunity costs is what the economists use. (45:45) For every 150 million you spend on creating an F 35, what could be done in your school district to pay the teachers a decent way? What could be do? What could be done in Iowa or Nebraska or any of these places which are being downtrodden? Okay? People need to make this very specific. This money is going to these high people that are making 20, $30 million a year as salaries, as CEOs or Raytheon and Lockheed general dynamics. That ain't sustainable. We need to get up and find out where these people live. Shame them into relenting a little bit and saying, look, maybe 10 million is enough for your salary, and maybe we'll give the balance to the poor. So round this thing up, I happen to be out of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and this reinforces my, what's the word, my imperative to honor the concept of justice, which is not balanced in favor of everybody because it's, it's not a level playing field. It's a unbalanced, it's biased and prejudice to the core in favor of the poor. Now, that's what I come out of as a faith perspective. I'll just add one other thing. I had a Jesuit teacher who was a real good friend of mine. I said, well, how would you describe your theology? I said, that's very simple. I can put it in one sentence. I said, what's that? He says, well, it all depends on what kind of God you believe in and how God feels when little people are pushed around. (47:47) And, okay, I'll say that again, and how God feels when little people are pushed around. Now, you don't have to believe in God. You can just believe in justice. I had agnostics and atheists tell me, look, Ray, you don't have to go into the Bible here. Human beings know that we're supposed to be fair, and that's true. Human beings used to know that we need to get back on the track here and do everything we can to make sure they realize that. Now, the more so since things are getting very, very perilous for us, not only in Ukraine, but in Western Asia as it's called now, Dr. Wilmer Leon (48:29): In mentioning Ukraine, you also have a piece at your website, Ray mcgovern.com entitled, fact Checking Putin on Ukraine. President Putin gave an interview right before he went to China for the Belt and Road Initiative Conference, and you say, media consumers should be permitted to learn what Putin said, particularly about Ukraine and Russia's problems dealing with various US administrations over the years. Readers who rely on the paper of record, however, will be shielded from his remarks, and thus, any temptation to ask if they might be true. And you went through a lot of what Russian President Putin had to say. You did your own fact checking. And what were some of the conclusions that you came to regarding President Putin's the veracity of his comments? Ray McGovern (49:35): Well, I checked them all, and there were two that I needed to consult others on because I wasn't a hundred percent sure. One had to do with when Soviet Russian forces went up there near Kiev and were abruptly withdrawn very early in the war in Ukraine, I always wondered about that. Putin claims that that was part of a deal, not a covenant, but at least a deal. Now, what was the deal? The deal was reached with Ukrainian officials in Glarus and in Turkey. There was a deal to stop the war, to have a ceasefire, to commit Ukraine, not to join NATO, and to bring Russian troops down from where they were threatening Kiev. That's what Putin claims. Now, I checked around because my memory is just one person, but I found out, yeah, that's probably why the Russian troops went down from that area. It's not because they couldn't have taken Kiev, although they didn't really have all that many troops there. (50:54) But the Russians, from the very outset of their special military operation, appeal to the Ukrainians, look, we'd like to have a deal here. All we want is some respect for our own security. We don't want NATO coming in as a bulwark against us. Now, what happened? Well, the Ukrainians talked and they reached an agreement in Ankara on the 31st of March, 2022, and it said these things that I just spelled out what happened? Well, the US in the person of Boris Johnson from the uk, he visited Kiev right away and said, no, no, no deal. You may be willing to deal with Russia, but we're not. We want to continue this thing. The object here is to give the Russians a bloody nose, a strategic defeat. Okay? And so what does Zelensky do? Oh, okay. Sorry. Sorry. I won't do that anymore. Okay. That's how that thing went down. (51:58) Now, I remember reading this in S, the official organ in Ukraine. I mean, that's pretty good. But when I had confirmation about this from some of the people that know the military situation a little better than I did, I said, yeah, well, that was correct too. Now, Wilmer, without belaboring this, I have to tell you that after fact checking all this and trying to offer this as an alternative view by somebody who had fact checked it, I couldn't get it published. I couldn't get it published on a very, well, what we shall say, a very anti-war website. Dr. Wilmer Leon (52:46): But Ray Ray, that's got to be impossible because Joe Biden has told us that we stand for democracy, that Putin is a dictator and that he's an autocrat, and we stand for the freedom of press in America. Ray, how could you not get something like that published? Ray McGovern (53:07): Well, I guess my point Wilmer here is that I've long since stopped trying to get something in The Times or the Washington Post. I used to be able to do that 10 years ago, like twice a year. But the alternative media, for God sake, the progressive media is now saying, oh, that sounds a little bit too. So here, I check these things. I double check with the people who know about things they're not quite sure about. I put it out there and say, well, that sounds a little bit too, we can't run that. So that's the alternative media. That's the binder where nobody wants to feel like they could be susceptible to criticism of being pro Putin, that my friend, is how bad it has become. Dr. Wilmer Leon (54:02): I was at dinner with some friends, and one of them asked kind of a generic question about this media and whose interests are being served, and this can't be some invisible cabal that is behind the scenes, being sure that a particular narrative is only being articulated. And I said, no, it doesn't really have to be a cabal, because when you look at Jeff Bezos, for example, and he owns the Washington Post, and he owns Amazon, and look at where Jeff Bezos has received most of his money from Amazon Data Systems, which is a defense contractor. I said, look at, what's his name, knowns Tesla, and he controls X, and where does he get most of his money from? SpaceX and starlink defense contractors. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a cabal as much as it is the confluence of interests that understand which side their bread is buttered on. Is that fair to say? Ray McGovern (55:29): Well, Wilmer, I have an expression or an acronym called the Mickey Mat, the military industrial Congressional Intelligence Media, academia think tank complex. It's in some dictionaries now. Okay, why do I say media? Because the media is controlled by the rest of the Mickey Mat. That's the situation we're in now. Now you mentioned Jeff Bezos, and you correctly pointed out he gets lots of money from the federal government, CIA, and others. Okay, but the people he picks, well, there was a fellow named Fred Hyatt who ran the editorial section of the Washington Post, like the op-ed section. Okay? And before the war in Iraq, about 90% of the op-eds were, oh, yeah, they're weapons of mass, weapons of, okay, so what happens after the war when there are no weapons of mass destruction? He goes up to the Columbia School of Journalism, and when a naive student says, Mr. Hyatt, you kept saying that there were weapons of mass destruction as flat fact, and it turned out not to be any. How do you explain that? And Hyatt famously said, well, if there weren't weapons of mass destruction, we probably should not have said that. There were, (56:58) My patron, Robert Perry of recent memory turned to me at that, and he said, Ray, that used to be sort of like a cardinal principle or journalism. If something's not true, you're not supposed to say it's okay. What happened to Fred Hyatt? He stayed in place for 20 more years running the op-ed section. So what's my point? No one, no one is held accountable for these things. That's up to us. We have to find ways to hold people accountable, and what that involves, I leave to people, but we have to start getting off to our rear ends. We have to put our bodies into it as I have in the past. They're not going to kill you. They'll beat you up, all put you in prison, but it's worth it because so much is at stake right now, and I've never seen, never seen a more tentative, a more dangerous time to include the prospect of the use of many nuclear weapons, which eventually would do us all in. Dr. Wilmer Leon (58:01): We have just about a minute and a half or so left, and I want to read, this is from M-S-N-B-C, and this is from the April 6th, 2022. In a break with the past US is using Intel to fight an info war with Russia, even when the intel isn't rock solid. What that means, boys and girls, is M-S-N-B-C is admitting that they are lying to the American people under the pretext of the noble line. They're lying to you. Boy, Ray McGovern American people, first of all, Ray, thank you so much for your time today, and where can folks find your work? Ray McGovern (58:51): Well, I'm sure that Plato and his noble liar kind of turning around in the grave right now. Dr. Wilmer Leon (59:01): Where can people find your work? Ray McGovern (59:03): Oh, where? Okay. Well, I am Twittering. That's @RayMcGovern. Okay. My website is raymcgovern.com. I'm also on Facebook and on Instagram, so I hope that you'll tune in. My son who runs my website always says, Ray, always say, always add. If you don't get it, you won't get it. You don't get it. But I'm too humble to say that. Dr. Wilmer Leon (59:31): Ray McGovern, thanks for joining me. Big shout out to my producer, melody McKinley. Thank you all so much for joining the Connecting the Dots podcast with me, Dr. Wilmer Leon. Folks, this is where the analysis of politics, culture, and history, converge talk without analysis is just chatter, and we don't chatter on connecting the dots. Stay tuned for the new podcasts every week. Also, please follow and subscribe. Leave a review, share the show, follow me on social media. You can find all the links below in the show description. I'll see you all next time, and until then, please treat each day like it's your last, because one day you'll be right. I'm Dr. Wilmer Leon. Peace and Blessings. I'm out.

Joining us to delve into the details on Haiti and so much more, our guest this week is Dr Jemima Pierre, professor at the Institute for the Study of Gender, race, sexuality and Social Justice at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. You can find me and the show on social media by searching the handle @DrWilmerLeon on X (Twitter), Instagram, and YouTube. Our Facebook page is www.facebook.com/Drwilmerleonctd All our episodes can be found at CTDpodcast.com.   TRANSCRIPT: Speaker 1 (00:40): Connecting the dots with Dr. Wilmer Leon, where the analysis of politics, culture, and history converge. Dr Wilmer Leon (00:48): Welcome to the Connecting the Dots podcast with Dr. Wilmer Leon. I'm Wilmer Leon. Here's the point. We have a tendency to view current events as though they occur in a vacuum, failing to understand the broader historical context in which most events take place. During each episode of this podcast, my guests and I will have probing, provocative, and in-depth discussions that connect the dots between current events and the broader historical context in which the events occur. This will enable you to better understand and analyze the events that are impacting the global village in which we live on today's episode. The question before us is why is the United States working to reinve and colonize Haiti? My guest is a professor at the Institute for the Study of Gender, race, sexuality and Social Justice at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. She's a member of the Black Alliance for Peace and an editor of the Black Agenda Review segment of the Black Agenda Report. And she's the author of a very, very substantive piece, Haiti as Empire's Laboratory, Dr. Jamima Pierre. Dr. Pierre, welcome to the show and let's connect some dots. Dr Jemima Pierre (02:12): Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Dr Wilmer Leon (02:15): You write in your piece that the Global Fragility Act presents new strategies for deploying us hard and soft power in a changing world. It focuses US foreign policy on the idea that there are so-called fragile states, countries prone to instability, extremism, conflict, and extreme poverty, which are presumably threats to US security. Explain first, what is the Global Fragility Act and why should Americans, not to mention its victims, be so concerned about it? Dr Jemima Pierre (02:52): Yes, so the Global Fragilities Act was actually presented in 2019, I think under Donald Trump, and then was ratified under the Biden administration. And it really is a way to be brand new as foreign policy. And I don't know if your listeners know about the Monroe Doctrine, which the US passed about a hundred years ago, which basically said that the US had access that no one can encroach in US' influence in the Western Hemisphere. And through the Monroe Doctrine, the US was able to assert its influence, occupy invade nations whenever it deemed necessary, and got away with it for a hundred years. And so the upheaval that we've seen throughout Latin America, the regime changes, the support for support for military dictatorships and so on and so forth has occurred through the Monroe Doctrine. But the Global Fragility Act was really brought by the conservative think tank, the US Peace Institute, which is actually misnamed as far as I'm concerned. (04:10) But it was really a way to look at US foreign policy in a different light or to rebrand it. And what I mean by rebrand is that to basically come together to make it seem like the US was not doing what it was doing, and it was basically bringing together the work of the Department of Defense, the Department of the State, and the U-S-A-I-D. So linking together aid defense as well as political state department moves. And the idea was basically an opportunity to change the way that the US did business to using local partners by not necessarily doing the dirty work of putting boots on the ground if it needed to invade a place. But it was really trying to figure out how to actually change the internal politics of a place to really prevent adversary. And they say in the ACT adversaries such as China and Russia from expanding their influence in this way, they use civil society, they use military, and then they use, so-called diplomacy bringing together. (05:19) But what's key to this, they also use local regional partners such as other states, other formations such as the Caribbean community and so on and so forth to actually assert US power. And so what's interesting about the Global Fragilities Act is that it was passed by Trump, but ratified under Biden and then was implemented. And at first they said they were going to focus on a set of countries, which Haiti being the very first. So what it is, so it's Haiti first and then Libya, Mozambique, Papua New Guinea, along with they call the coastal countries of West Africa. What's fascinating about this order is that Haiti and Libya are the states, two of the states besides Iraq that are probably most destroyed by the US and its allies. And it is going under the guise that these people are, that these states are so fragile, they're a mess, they're full of corruption and so on and so forth without really talking about the underlying problem, which is these states are fragile because of us constant interventions and us creating instability in this state. So I'll stop there to just give as a short background, Dr Wilmer Leon (06:42): One of the things that popped in my mind when you said Haiti and then you said Libya, one of the common threads between the two are the Clintons, because if I remember my history correctly, it was then Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton that convinced then President Obama, then President Barack Obama to invade Libya and assassinate more Mark dfi. And we know that Hillary Clinton, again, was very much involved in the destabilization, the most recent destabilization of Haiti. Dr Jemima Pierre (07:21): Oh, definitely. Well, the Clintons, they've got dirt all over them. I mean, when it comes to Haiti, the Clintons, I have a piece that I wrote a long time ago, about 11 years ago. I say the Clintons are omnipotent, omni, the present, they're everywhere. And so we have to think about what Bill Clinton did by killing Haiti's rice production facility by dumping the rise of his Arkansas farmers into Haiti and destroying Haiti's rise economy. So we have to think about what he did when he was president, but they've been dealing with Haiti for a long time. And we have to think also about after the earthquake where Obama put Clinton and Georgia re bush in charge of Haiti eight. And the people that benefited the most from the earthquake that killed 300,000 Haitians was the Clinton Foundation, which raised tons of money. And Haiti saw nothing except for these fancy hotels that they're making profits off. (08:17) So there's that. But what's most important is in 2011 during the So-called Arab Spring, Hillary Clinton flew to Haiti and changed the election results that actually put in power, the current political, so-called political party that's there now, Michelle Marli, who actually was just named in the UN report as one of the biggest funders for gangs in Haiti, who's also the president, the former president, right? And so they forced Haiti to have elections, right, eight months after an earthquake that destabilized the whole country where about a million people were still living in tents outside, but they forced these elections because this is how they could control Haiti. And when their favorite candidate, Martin Lee did not make the first round, they decided that they're going to force that. So Hillary Clinton flew into Haiti and threatened the sitting president would exile if he did not allow the change to the ballots to make this guy who did not make the first round president. And everything has been bad since then. Dr Wilmer Leon (09:24): You mentioned Bill Clinton decimating the domestic Haitian rice production in his book, the Choice Sam yet talks about the tie of rice to the start of the Vietnam War and how many people don't discuss one of the major motivating factors for the United States to go into Indo-China had to do with protecting American rice interest because they didn't want Asian rice flooding the market. And then that also made me think about nafta. And what NAFTA did to the domestic corn production in Mexico decimated the production of Mexican corn, which then decimated the livelihoods for Mexican farmers, which has contributed to immigration of Mexicans into the United States. So again, the show is called Connecting the Dots. And so any thoughts on that? Dr Jemima Pierre (10:25): Well, definitely I think, I don't even remember where I saw that recently that rice farmers, is it Rice? Rice producers were looking forward to having access back again to Haiti's market once this military invasion happened. And so there's a lot of things to think about under Reagan. Haiti, the Haitian government was forced to kill its local pigs, the black pigs, I don't know if people have heard about this, but you can look up Haiti black pigs. Black pigs are indigenous to that region. And Haiti was told that the pigs had some disease and they had to basically kill the entire population of black pigs on the island in order. And then they were replaced by the white pigs from the south of the US and pigs who are from the US not are not used to the climate in the Caribbean. So then they required very specific kinds of feeding food to eat. (11:30) And so those had to be imported. So that decimated the Haitian economy. So there's a way that you can see all these connected. The other thing is I don't think people always ask, well, you're making a big deal about Haiti. Haiti's not that important. Why would the US spend so much time and energy trying to destabilize Haiti? And then you realize then you have to ask these people, well, why is the fourth largest US embassy in the world in Haiti? If Haiti was not so important, why did the US feel that they have to do it? And why? Despite everything going on this week, despite the fact that you have the genocidal Zionist state killing thousands of Palestinians, they forced the UN to have a meeting about this intervention in Haiti over gangs, right? Supposedly over gangs. So that tells you there's something in there because Haiti actually becomes a big manufacturing hub for the us. And so I think a lot of us have been saying as the us, as the US moves towards a war with China, they will need a replacement of their manufacturing hubs. And Haiti already within 11 million strong population Haiti already provides is a space for a large manufacturing hub already. So as they lose Asia, they're going to rely more on Haiti. And so we have to think about that in terms of the economics of that as well as the politics, which we can get into later on as we speak more. Dr Wilmer Leon (13:01): You write in your piece in April of 22, the Biden Harris administration affirmed its commitment to the Global Fragilities Act by outlining a strategy for its implementation as detailed in the strategies prologue, the US government's new foreign policy approach depends on willing partners to address common challenges and share costs. Ultimately, the document continues. No US or international intervention will be successful without the buy-in and mutual ownership of trusted regional, national and local partners. And you touched on that in your open, but I think it's very important for people to really understand. That's really nice flowerly language, but it's not innocuous. That is a very nice way of saying that the United States is going to use organizations, indigenous organizations in order to promote American interests. Dr Jemima Pierre (14:15): Oh, definitely. Not just indigenous organizations, local states. I mean the recent upcoming invasion, military invasion of Haiti supposedly over gangs is actually being led supposedly by Kenya. And so all of a sudden you're asking yourself, Kenya's, all the way across the world on the east side of the African continent, what does Kenya have to do with Haiti? Well, before Kenya, the US tried to use Racom, which is a community of Caribbean states and nations. And that didn't work as well before them. They tried to get clac, which is the central and Latin American communities to lead in the invasion. Before them, they tried to get Brazil. So before them, they tried to get Canada to lead the invasion. And before that they tried to get Brazil to lead the invasion. The thing is to not have boots on the ground, as we've seen in the US in Ukraine, for example. (15:14) The point is to use other, so-called stakeholders, get other people to do the dirty work of US intervention and foreign policy and to get buy-in. And the reason I say Haiti's a laboratory, this is not the first time this is happening. And in the piece I outlined the Canada, France and US back Kuta that happened in Haiti in 2004, where the US and France, who our membership in the security council, they were behind the Kuta in 2004, immediately after the US Marines landed, took our president, put him on a plane and flew him to Africa. You had French Canadian and US soldiers there, but these two UN security council members were able to use their position to call an emergency security council meeting to push for a multinational. So-called stabilization force in Haiti. So to me, the UN is bankrupt with this security council in this particular sense. (16:23) So these people were able to use that, and then they convinced the UN that Haiti needed a chapter seven deployment. And chapter seven deployment is only for countries that are at war with other, there's a civil war. There was no civil war in Haiti, but they managed to convince the un. So then what they ended up doing was sending, getting a un, so-called peacekeeping mission to Haiti in a country that was not at civil war. But what it meant that was that you can have up to 50 to 60 nations participate in an occupation of Haiti. And that's what ended up happening. Brazil led that meeting and you had people from all over the world, police and military from all over the world occupying Haiti on behalf of the US under the guise of providing civility. That group stayed there from 2004 to 2017 when they drew down and brought back a smaller force. (17:15) But so Haiti is still under un occupation. And this is what this amazing law scholar, and I'm forgetting her name, I think it's China Mayville calls multilateralism as terror because the new, and this is what the Global Fragility Act, and that's why Haiti's always a laboratory is because you use Haiti. They tried it on Haiti and it worked. In fact, the WikiLeaks paper said the Minister peacekeeping mission in Haiti the cheapest was a foreign policy bonanza for the US because it was so cheap they can use the UN and then they can use all the local Latin America countries to do the dirty work. And so it's just really important to think about that and to think about how they're going to move forward from that on. And now the other thing to talk about aid is that they've already established a second phase of the Global Fragilities Act in the summer, and they're saying they're going fund, they're going to fund 260, so-called civil society NGOs on the ground in order to basically shape policy in Haiti as they leave for elections. So the plan is to actually take over the political structure of Haiti using the guise of civil society and Haitian solutions. Dr Wilmer Leon (18:32): So to that point, what this results in and what the Global Fragilities Act does is it takes the Department of State and it combines the Department of State and the Pentagon. And it's using, as you said in your piece, the hard power is the Pentagon. The soft power is the Department of State and under the pretext or pretense of bringing stability to the country, that enables the United States to go in with the military and engage in regime change and engage in control of the domestic space, but leaving out the fact that the reason the country is unstable in the first place is because of American policy in the country. Dr Jemima Pierre (19:34): Oh, definitely. And that's one of the key things we have to remember is this 2004 coup deta is a coup deta where Canada Friends and the US got together in Ottawa and Canada in 2003 and decided they needed to get rid of our elected democratically elected president. And then they follow through with this coup deta. And then it was given a go ahead by the UN because they run the security council and the other states on the permanent council also need to be held accountable because they sat quietly and let the US and France run this right the same way they did with Libya allowing a no fly zone of Libya. And so Haiti has been under occupation since 2004. And so at the beginning of the coup DTA in 2004, Haiti had about 7,000 elected officials. As of today, Haiti has zero elected officials, the US and the UN through the core group, which is a group of unelected non Haitian officials from the European Union, the organization of American states that meet that. (20:40) So-called court that meet to make plans for Haiti. They're the ones that have been running Haiti since 2004. So if there's a problem in Haiti, if there hasn't been any elections where we have no regional elections, no local elections, no presidential elections, it's because they have allowed that if there are guns in the country, because Haiti does not manufacture guns, it's because, and the guns are coming from the us, it's because they control what comes in and out of Haiti. They know who it is. In fact, the UN put out a report just last week stating explicitly that the former president that Hillary Clinton installed actually was funding two major gangs in Haiti to go after his enemies and to wreak havoc in the neighborhoods. And so all this tells me that everything that's happened in the last 19 years has been why Haiti is under occupation. And what they want to do is wreak havoc. And I don't know if people know this, the US has been trying to get an intervention force in Haiti for two years since the assassination of the president. And I have to say, as an aside, the Dr Wilmer Leon (21:46): Assassination was that Ju Moiz the Dr Jemima Pierre (21:47): Assassination, Jon Moiz, right? I have to put that an aside, that assassination happened about a month after Moiz came back from Russia trying to establish relationships with Russia. And I have to, this is an important piece that I think matters. And that was the first time Haiti was trying to establish relations with Russia. So part of that is because Haitians were protesting against intervention from the very beginning. They were always in the streets. And people forget that Haitians have been protesting against us, meddling for the longest times from 2018 19, in 2020, there were millions of Haitians on the street protesting to get rid of this public government that the US had installed and so on. People were protesting over and over again, and the US could not get this passed. And I don't know if you realize it. And then so all of a sudden, this gang problem emerges and it seems out of hand because the amount of guns entering the country the past two years has been unprecedented. And they're dumping guns and ammunition into the country. The guns are coming directly from Haiti. So they're fomenting this idea that there's this gun Dr Wilmer Leon (22:58): Coming directly to Haiti, Dr Jemima Pierre (22:59): To Haiti through the ports that are owned by the elite, the ports that are owned by the elite, the Haitian oligarchy that a couple of 'em have been named in the UN report just last week, that they need to be sanctioned. The US hasn't sanctioned any of them. They have not followed through the embargo that the Chinese government said that they should put. So they basically created, exacerbated the gang problem. That's what I should say. They exacerbated the gang problem. So then every news media you see about Haiti the past year has been about gangs, not about the fact that Haitians were protesting the fact that this illegitimate government signed this deal with the IMF to remove fuel subsidies and made life extremely expensive for Haiti, or the fact that the people were protesting this prime minister that was installed by the US in the core group. And so we forget that people are protesting against US Empire protesting against a defacto government that they didn't elect, and now we're only focusing on gangs. And it's easy to do that because they can manufacture that consent because they can control everything that's going on Haiti. So then they create the basket case, and then they come in and they say, well, we have to fix this problem because they need help. Dr Wilmer Leon (24:10): What is the average daily income for a Haitian? Dr Jemima Pierre (24:15): Oh, I haven't checked that in a while, but it's under three us. I think it's under five US dollars per day. Dr Wilmer Leon (24:21): Okay. Okay. $5 a day under. (24:24) Well, let's just for simple math, $5 a day, seven days a week, $35 a week, okay. A Beretta 40 caliber handgun costs about $600, a heckler and cock, 40 caliber handgun. It's about $800. An AR 15 style rifle is about $1,200. How does a person making $35 a week and that's on the high side afford a $600 handgun, a $1,200 assault rifle, assault style rifle, unless they're being supplemented, supplemented in quotes by some external force. So I wanted to make that point so that people could understand when you say that they're being imported by the elite, that you're not just spewing a just random foolishness. There's a logic to this and talk about the gangs because we've been hearing about the gang problem, but it's not just simply not all gangs are gangs. How about that? Dr Jemima Pierre (25:54): Yes, definitely. Well, in addition to the guns, you have to think about ammunition. You can have a gun if you don't have ammunition, what can you do with it? Dr Wilmer Leon (26:03): Throw it at somebody. Dr Jemima Pierre (26:06): And so I have to say, so in the past three years, a number of high powered military grade guns in the country has gone up to almost a million. And so you're trying to figure out these, and then when you see the pictures, you see pictures of young men in flip-flops and mismatched shorts and rioty shirts, Dr Wilmer Leon (26:30): Raggedy t-shirts and shorts, Dr Jemima Pierre (26:31): Raggedy T-shirts where they dump us youth clothes in Haiti. That's what they're wearing, Dr Wilmer Leon (26:38): That a lot of that clothing is made in Haiti, right, Dr Jemima Pierre (26:44): Right. Am I right? Exactly. And then set back as charity right after people stopped wearing them. Right. But yeah, so you have to ask yourself and you're like, well, is this really what is this problem? It's not like militaries are fighting against people. It's not like there's a civil war in Haiti. It's like these young men who are being paid to wreak havoc. And because the unemployment is so high in Haiti, it's really easy to find some young men and give 'em some guns and make them think that they're doing something or you send them annual ammunition. And just recently the Haitian police stopped a van that was full of ammunition coming from the Dominican border into Haiti. So we have to think about that. And this is the other part is Haiti has had a problem paramilitary since the US occupied Haiti in the 1915, changed our constitution and set up the Haitian police when they left 19 years later, which became the bane of our existence, but also led to the coming to power of Papa Doc and his really horrible military force, paramilitary force, Tonto Maku. (27:57) So we've had this long history of us sponsored terror through police, and then what ends up happening is with the end of the Risid government through ata, you have a lot of former police, former military disbanded the military because he said the military was always the bane of Hades existence. So he abandoned the military, and a lot of them actually became part of these paramilitary troops that would come back and be paid by the CIA to try and overthrow him. And so what you talk about gangs is this ragtag the news media likes to show these pictures of burning tires, rack tack, guys holding AK 47, whatever they're holding as if Haiti is engulfed. And the reality is, a lot of this is in the Capitol city with these groups. Some of them are right near the US Embassy, so they know who they are. (28:51) But the other thing is you have the police, the former police who also have formed what we call paramilitary groups. You have the local elite who fund armed groups to do what they needed to do. So you have a combination of things, but to me, there's also racialized part of this because it's easy to say, well, Hades filled with gangs, and these black people look at them, look at the pictures, but look at this. There's a mass shooting in Maine with this guy holding a gun. They still can't find him. Many mass shootings in the US are with white guys holding guns, but you don't see the breathless report. Imagine if we report about US mass shooting the way they report about hate Dr Wilmer Leon (29:35): 537 mass shootings in the United States the 1st of January, 2023. And Dr Jemima Pierre (29:44): That's right. And we only have 360 days, 365 days in the year. The reality is in places like Jamaica, they've been under state of emergency because of gang violence. And so why is Haiti and you have to think there's something else going on. It can't be just about the gangs. The other thing is the biggest gangsters in Haiti, as I always say, is the us, the core group and the UN mission there, because how gangster can you get meet in a different country, France, Canada and the us, they meet and they decide they're going to remove an elected president, or how gangster can you get any more gangster than Hillary Clinton flying in and changing the election results of a supposedly sovereign country? So we have to redefine how we're thinking about this gang thing and really think about, well, who's funding these young men and who are the real gangsters of the world that can allow this to happen or that make this happen and then turn around and present themselves just because they're wearing suits, they present themselves as the real people that can bring solutions. Dr Wilmer Leon (30:52): The name of this podcast is connecting the dots. Who did the United States follow into Vietnam, France? Who is the United States following t, Niger, France? Who is the United States following into Haiti, France? Should we be connecting these dots? Dr. Pierre? Are these relevant dots to connect? Dr Jemima Pierre (31:20): I think on some level, I think for West Africa, it's very interesting in terms of seeing the fall of French influence and empire. And I think the US is coming in to clean up to make sure that West Africa doesn't fall in the hands of supposed Russia. And so as France wanes, they're jumping in to do that. And I think with Haiti, it was the same thing. It was like the US came in, especially in the early 19 hundreds and through its Monroe doctrine, was basically to get rid of the European presence. And because there were a group of Germans actually that were trying, that owned a lot of stuff in Haiti that were doing business in Haiti, and the US did not want to have anyone outside of themselves to control the political and economic situation in the region. And so that's exactly what's happening. The US took over from France way early in the early 19 hundreds, and it's been doing that, and then France then just turns around and becomes a junior partner and continues the work of the White West Elite. Dr Wilmer Leon (32:25): Well, and not to get too deep into the weeds, but wasn't the basic premise of the Monroe Doctrine. It was an agreement between the United States and Europe. The United States committed to staying out of the affairs of Europe if Europe agreed to stay out of the affairs of the Americas, leaving the Americas to the United States. Dr Jemima Pierre (32:48): Exactly. Exactly. Except that now the Global Fragility Act, the US is viewing Europe as junior partners, as intensifies its control of the region, Dr Wilmer Leon (33:03): Who was the face of US policy going into Haiti and ushering out Jean Beron aee. Was it Colin Powell? Was he the face? The story that I understand is he was the messenger that went in to Haiti and told President Risid, you got to go. There's a plane on the tarmac if you don't get on it. Dr Jemima Pierre (33:36): Yeah, it wasn't Colin Powell, it was the US Ambassador to Haiti. I forgot his name at the time that actually the Marines had, but it was Colin Powell that was with Georgia re bush threatening. And if you go back to the media, you'll see it's always a black face. I mean, there's always a black face to do that work, Dr Wilmer Leon (33:56): Right? That's the point I want. That's the dot. I want to connect because it's now Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin that went to Kenya with the bag of cash to establish what a five year defense agreement with Kenya in order to entice them. So another black face on American imperialism. I call that minstrel diplomacy. Your thoughts. Dr Jemima Pierre (34:27): Definitely. And that's the most disappointing part, is that this has been going on. It Dr Wilmer Leon (34:35): Doesn't always Wait, wait minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. And it was, when we want to talk about the Racom and the Global Fragilities Act, it was a, not Gregory Meeks, it was the minority leader in the house from New York, Dr Jemima Pierre (34:55): Hakeem Jeffries. Dr Wilmer Leon (34:56): Hakeem Jeffries, and it was Hakeem Jeffries. It was Vice President Kamala Harris, Dr Jemima Pierre (35:02): Kamala Harris Dr Wilmer Leon (35:03): That went to Caricom. And when you mentioned Global Fragilities Act, I think that was Co-sponsored by Karen Bass. Dr Jemima Pierre (35:13): Karen Bass, and I forgot the name of the other person. Yes. It was two black Dr Wilmer Leon (35:19): Faces on two Dr Jemima Pierre (35:20): Black faces of the Empire. And if Dr Wilmer Leon (35:22): We go to the un, Linda Thomas Greenfield, Dr Jemima Pierre (35:27): And the State Department representative for the region is Brian Nichols. And this is the most disturbing part to me is because it wasn't always this way. So for Frederick Douglas, the great abolitionist, Frederick Douglas was sent to Haiti as a US representative in the late 18 hundreds, wasn't he? Ambassador? Yes. To sent to Haiti, and they really went, they sent him to actually negotiate to get this Bay Molson Nicola, which they still want actually to basically set up a base there, a US military base there. The Haitians have always gone against that, which is why they ended up setting up the base in Guantanamo Bay. So if you look at the map, it's a perfect way place for, it's between Cuba and Haiti, and this bay is there. And so it is perfect for the US ships to go through, get through the Panama Canal, wherever they need to get through to get to the Pacific. (36:20) And so Frederick Douglass came back and advocated against that on behalf of Haitians. He felt a responsibility. And he also have the NAACP wrote writing on behalf of Haiti during the occupation from 1915 to 1934, saying that this is talking about how Citibank was behind the occupation and how badly the US is treating Haitians and so on and so forth. It wasn't always this way. Now you have Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, and then you have Barack Obama because it was under Barack Obama that this latest political party was put in power. This neo Deval political party was put into power. And so you have this, and then you have them sending Brian Nichols who's trying to, who's behind pushing this intervention. So meeting with all of these people, getting the Caribbean, getting these, I call neo-colonial coons, whatever you want to call them, the head of Jamaica, the head of Barbados, the head neo motley, right? (37:38) Who's the UN's darling? Because apparently the word on the street is that she's up for the UN Security Council secretary general job. And so she's doing whatever needs to be done to get there. So the US has managed to get all these black people. Now, Kenya, who knows nothing about Haiti get this, Kenya did not even have diplomatic relations to Haiti with Haiti until last month right before the un vote. So Kenya knows nothing about Haiti. They're talking about training their police to speak French when the majority of Haitian people don't speak French, they speak Creole, right? And so part of that is to think about how easy it is to use black people to use black faces to do empires bidding. And I actually think China and Russia had been pushing against this intervention for the past two years. And I think this last time, after two years of pushing back, they abstained. And I think part of the reason they abstained is because you had all these black countries pressuring them. And I think one of the things is I also think they're looking out for themselves and their relationship with these countries in Africa and the Caribbean. So they stepped back and allowed this intervention to go forward. But I think they stepped back because it was the onslaught of pressure from the black countries on Dr Wilmer Leon (38:56): Them. But why abstain? Why not vote no and kill the deal? Dr Jemima Pierre (39:03): Right? Because that's what I'm saying. I think they're looking out for their own best interests. I think they don't want to ruin their relationships with these black countries who are pushing. I think that's part of that, right? So they voted no all along and this time, so if you have Nia Motley, you have Ruto, you have all these people saying, this is Pan-Africanism. We're going to go help our brothers and sisters in Haiti by sending a military intervention. That's what Ruto is using. They're using the language of Pan-Africanism Racom is using the language of helping our brothers, even though Caricom has some of the most draconian anti Haiti immigration policies, deportation rules, but they're all using this language. And I do think that actually applied the pressure that the US got them to apply on China. Russia actually worked to get them to abstain. At least they didn't vote yes. But the abstention, I think, is a result of the pressure. Dr Wilmer Leon (39:55): You mentioned the training of Haitian police through these Kenyan interlocutors or these Kenyan invaders, and these Kenyan forces have been labeled as Kenyan police. But from what I've read, they're not Kenyan police. They're Kenyan paramilitary forces that have a reputation of being incredibly, incredibly brutal against their own countrymen. Dr Jemima Pierre (40:29): Yeah, definitely. And what's most distressing about this situation is that the only solution that these people think that they can have for Haiti and Haitian is a violent military. One is the one that has to do with force. They never tried. They never tried diplomacy. They never tried actually sanctioning these elites that they know run guns into the country. So yeah, the thousand police is not police. It's pe, military force, but also Kenya has a terrible reputation in Somalia in the proxy war there going in there and devastating Somalis. And so for me, just because they're black, in fact, if anything, I think these police officers will treat Haitians worse because they're black in a way that they wouldn't, can you imagine sending a Kenyan police force to Europe? Or why not send a Kenyan police force to Ukraine to help? And so part of that to me is it is telling, and I want to quickly just say Dr Wilmer Leon (41:36): Briefly, oh, well, the reason you won't send those black Kenyan forces to Ukraine is because the Nazis, the racist Nazis in Ukraine would chop off their heads. That's why. Dr Jemima Pierre (41:47): Well, definitely. But this idea that it's easier to watch one black group kill another. Oh, no, no, Dr Wilmer Leon (41:52): No. I truly understand the basis of the Dr Jemima Pierre (41:54): Question. No, I know. Dr Wilmer Leon (41:56): Go ahead. Dr Jemima Pierre (41:58): Yes, yes, we know. We know. It's really distressing to think about that because look at what's happening right now in the Occupy territories where you have Zionist state destroying killing. And right now, as we know, more than 7,000 people, 3000 children, and we have an internal, so-called gang problem, but we're getting a chapter seven military deployment to invade Haiti. But Zionist state Z, its entity can get away with killing how many people, and nobody's thinking about sending a military force to stop this bombing. So just think about that. No, the Dr Wilmer Leon (42:38): Military force that's being sent is facilitating the bombing Dr Jemima Pierre (42:41): Is to facilitate it. And so I want people to make those connections because you have to think, well, why isn't it absurd to send an armed military force to deal with gangs? So-called gangs in Haiti, but you're not doing it for Jamaica, which has been under state of emergency for two years over gangs. You're not doing it in the Middle East. And so we have to think about, well, this makes no sense. This idea of a military invasion of Haiti makes no sense in light what's going on in light of Ukraine and in light of what's going on in the occupied territories. Dr Wilmer Leon (43:13): You mentioned China a little bit earlier, and I always say to folks, when you engage in these type of conversations, it's usually a good idea to have a map in front of you so that you can understand the geopolitics. So we know that China has been establishing relationships with Nicaragua. We know that China is establishing relationships with Guatemala, and those are in Central America. And we know that there's been discussions about China building a canal to rival a Panama Canal through Nicaragua. And we know that the United States does not want that to happen. And we'd also know that the United States has been anxious to build a naval base in Haiti. So if you could connect those dots. Am I wrong to, again, the show is connecting the dots. Am I wrong to connect those dots? Dr Jemima Pierre (44:19): No, you're not wrong at all. The Global Fragilities Act specifically names China and Russia. So let's get that clear. And so one of the things is the waning power of the empire, right? Because they know that what their military used to be able to do, they can't do anymore. Look, they got beat by the Taliban 20 years later. How many trillions of dollars they destroyed Iraq, when was the last time the US won a war? I mean, let's be real, except maybe World War ii. And even that, Dr Wilmer Leon (44:51): They Dr Jemima Pierre (44:51): Had a lot of help from the Red Army. Let's be real Dr Wilmer Leon (44:54): Panama, Dr Jemima Pierre (44:55): Right? Panama or Dr Wilmer Leon (44:58): A big, huge military power called Panama, Dr Jemima Pierre (45:01): Right? Grenada, we just celebrated the 40th anniversary of the invasion of Grenada. Or you land in Haiti and you send special forces and you remove the sitting president. So they know that they're losing militarily. They know that they cannot sustain the multiple fronts, but they also know the rise of China and Russia is inevitable. Not even. They're already there. And so they know that they can't compete. And so they have to figure out how to mitigate that. And I do think so. That connection is good. Do you know that Haiti is only one of 11 countries that recognizes Taiwan, right? So what does that tell you? And they were forced to recognize Taiwan. And I think, I don't remember if it was under Duvalier who was a staunch anti-communist and really terrorized Dr Wilmer Leon (45:57): Who forced Haiti to recognize Taiwan. Dr Jemima Pierre (46:00): It was the US government to right, Dr Wilmer Leon (46:02): But wait a bit, Dr. Pierre, that can't be because we have a one China policy. So how could that be? Dr Jemima Pierre (46:09): No, it's just really fascinating. The more I think about it, the more I come to know this history, and you realize, well, why is Haiti only one of 11 countries to recognize Taiwan? And why was Taiwan coming to Haiti to sign bilateral deals and so on and so forth? And so part of that is they've been able to keep Haiti as one of the few in the region as one of the few people to recognize Taiwan as opposed to China, even though the US itself, as you say, has a one China policy. So I do think this is all connected. I think the US is trying to entrench itself. It wants to be near Haiti, closer to Haiti because it's worried about Venezuela. It is still mad about Cuba. It's worried about this. You're right, this canal that Nicaragua wants to get with the help of China and war with China is inevitable. (47:01) They all know that because they know that that's the only way they can try to hold on to this flailing empire. And so they're going to need to do as much as they can, but because they don't have the strength from military numbers to the capacity, you have 800 bases. That's a vulnerability. So they're going to get other, look what's happening right now in the Middle East. Your bases are being attacked. They're sitting ducks. And so if you have all of these things there, if you can talk, some people still into the dirty work for you, which is why they have military exercises with the Caribbean operation Tradewinds, they have military exercises with West Africa, and so they want to use these as proxies the way that they use Ukraine as a proxy against Russia. So they're going to use these as proxies against China. And that's the connection, right? The connection is all about trying to maintain global dominance, but not having enough firepower, not having enough political power to do so. So then using these others while you still can to do the dirty work for you, Dr Wilmer Leon (47:59): Talk if you would please, about the Dominican Republic, the Dominican Republic's role as it relates to Haiti and Columbia as well. Because I think that I read a number of reports that some of the assassins that went into Haiti and assassinated President Maise were Columbia or were out of Columbia, and we know that Columbia is one of the training bases for the CIA as the CIA projects this power in Central and South America. Dr Jemima Pierre (48:37): Yeah. Well, so Columbia also outsources mercenaries, and so it's very easy to use trained Dr Wilmer Leon (48:47): By the Dr Jemima Pierre (48:47): United States, right? 23 out of the 26 mercenaries come out of Columbia. Columbia's interesting. And I'm not a Columbia expert. What's interesting is the fact that they elected this leftist president, but Columbia has a long history of, right-wing governments also would fey to the us. And so we have to ask Columbia, well, why are there still US military bases in Columbia, right? So why did they sign an agreement to be with NATO to be like a NATO ally, NATO ally? And so Columbia is definitely part of that. I think I forgot your question, but No, Dr Wilmer Leon (49:25): I was asking about the relationship between the Dominican Republic and Columbia as it relates to being proxies basically for the United States. Dr Jemima Pierre (49:37): Well, definitely, and I don't know. I know the relationship with Dominican Republic, with Haiti, and one of the things, Haiti during the Haitian Revolution took over the entire island to get rid of the Spanish and to end slavery. And it's a very complicated history. And after Haitians beat the French, they had to take over the entire island in order to stop the constant attacks that were coming around, but also they got rid of slavery. And so then the Spanish help the elites get back. That part of the island and the relationship has always been fraught. The Dominican Republic has a deep anti-Asian, which is very much deep in racism. And so then that you have is our legacy with the Dominican Republic is in 19 seven massacre, parsley massacre, where they chop down about 30,000 Haitians and dumped them in the river, which is why that river, if you've heard that, and it uses called Massacre River, is the Dominican Republic massacre. (50:41) And Haitians, they've always, with the 2004 Kuta, a lot of the paramilitaries were trained in the military in the Dominican Republic. A lot of the arms are going into from the Dominican Republic and this ab, who's one of the most racist, right-wing presidents of Dominican Republic has had been going after Haitians forever. So for example, in 2013, the Dominican Republic nationalized 240,000 people, Dominicans of Haitian descent going back eight generations. So these people were Dominicans and basically removed citizenship from them. And Ab Nair has been rounding up the Haitian workers that have been in the Dominican Republic for generations cutting cane and so on and so forth. And that itself is a result of policies in the region that impoverish people and force them to go out and provide cheap labor. So the Dominican Republic and Haiti have had a really acrimonious history, but then the US Border Patrol is helping the Dominican Republic build a wall to separate Haiti in the dr. (51:45) So the US' hand is always in there, and we always have to, it is not to take away agency from the Dominicans or from the Haitians, but the truth is the reason that Haiti becomes significance because one of the few places that's still fight back, and I don't think people realize it. And that's one thing you have to think about, HAES, not that it's a mess. The reason they're still going after is because it's still fighting back places like Jamaica, for example. I don't know if people saw, there's a report recently that Jamaicans have no regular, Jamaicans no longer have access to their beaches. They have all been privatized and owned by foreigners. And so what they've become is a captive labor force to provide labor for these resorts. Well, Haiti, we don't have that yet. I mean, we have it in the northern part where in La Bai, which the Duval sold to, I think Royal Caribbean cruises. But this is what they want for Haiti. They want to remove the people from the land where people still own a lot of their land, where the country's still predominantly agriculture. They want to remove them from the land, privatize everything, steal the land, and turn it into a captive labor force for capital. And so, Dr Wilmer Leon (53:00): Wait a minute. To that point, I read and that the Clintons have purchased an inordinate amount of land in Haiti to build a private resort. Basically the model, what's been done in Jamaica. Dr Jemima Pierre (53:16): Jamaica, definitely Jamaica, Barbados, all those places that the other thing we have to talk about, the mineral wealth in Haiti. Wait, Dr Wilmer Leon (53:24): And one more point real quick is that you talked about resistance. I believe if those Kenyan forces make land on Haiti, Dr Jemima Pierre (53:38): They won't know what's coming. Dr Wilmer Leon (53:39): They got to fight on their hands that be prepared to manage. Dr Jemima Pierre (53:45): Yeah, I don't think it is going to be as easy as they think. And Dr Wilmer Leon (53:50): You wanted to hit on the mineral. Dr Jemima Pierre (53:52): On the mineral. And people also don't remember, don't know that Haiti, you can look this up. There are all these reports that Haiti has millions minerals and that people want, in fact, when they decided to start mining for gold, the first person that got a mining permit was Hillary Clinton's brother, Dr Wilmer Leon (54:14): Brother out of Canada, right? Dr Jemima Pierre (54:18): And so we have to think about Canada too, because Canada's people think of Canada as like Little Brother and Peter, but Canada has been front and center. In fact, Canada still has big manufacturing hubs. Gildan still produces T-shirts and stuff like that in Haiti. So it's just really interesting to think about how I wanted to end by saying, this is not a victimization. I think people like to say, oh, poor Haitians. Oh, look at this. People suffer so much they can't get a break. And I'm like, well, the truth is they've been fighting back, which is why they can't get a break, and they're going to continue to fight back. And you can't only see them as perpetual victims. What you need to see is do analysis and connect the ways that all the, the ways that Empire has tried to keep the people down, despite the fact that they're standing up to fight back. Dr Wilmer Leon (55:03): You've got a hard stop. I greatly appreciate you giving me the time today. You talked about minerals. There are geological reports that show there may be more oil off the coast of Haiti than there is in Venezuela. Venezuela, and Venezuela has the largest reserv of oil in the world. Dr. Jamima Pierre, how can people find you, connect with you if they need to? Dr Jemima Pierre (55:30): Yeah. Well, you can find me on YouTube through all these various interviews and my publications all over just a basically Dr Wilmer Leon (55:37): Black agenda report Dr Jemima Pierre (55:38): And black agenda report, as well as the Black Alliance for Peace. We have a whole Haiti resource page. Dr Wilmer Leon (55:43): Dr. Jamima Pierre, thank you so much for your time. Really, really appreciate it. Dr Jemima Pierre (55:48): Thanks so much for having me. Dr Wilmer Leon (55:50): Thank you folks. I got to thank my guest, Dr. Jamima Pierre for joining me today. And thank you all so much for listening to the Connecting the Dots podcast with me, Dr. Wilmer Leon. Stay tuned for new episodes every week. Also, please follow and subscribe, leave a review, and please, please, please, please, baby. Please baby. Please share my show. Follow us on social media. You can find all the links below in the show description. Remember, this is where the analysis of politics, culture, and history converge because talk without analysis is just chatter, and we don't chatter on connecting the dots. See you again next time. Until then, I'm Dr. Woman Leon. Have a great one. Peace and blessings. I'm out Speaker 1 (56:47): Connecting the dots with Dr. Wilmer Leon, where the analysis of politics, culture, and history converge.

In this episode, we're tackling some common complaints and fears that can arise during the retirement planning process. We'll discuss which concerns are well-founded, which are based on misconceptions, and offer insight on how retirees can best navigate their financial future. Important Links:  Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1: Welcome in to another edition of the podcast. It's Plan With The Tax Man with Tony Mauro from Tax Doctor Inc. here to talk with me this week on the show. We're going to dive into exposing some retirement planning complaints, tackle some common complaints and fears people have about their financial situations during retirement, and which of these are kind of well-founded or maybe just full of misconceptions, things of that nature. So we'll have a good conversation with Tony this week on the podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to us at yourplanningpros.com. You can check out Tony's website at yourplanningpros.com, or type in Plan With The Tax Man in the search box of whatever podcasting app you like using like Apple, Google, or Spotify.   Tony, my friend, what's going on buddy? How are you?   Tony Mauro: I'm good. As we're recording this it's state fair time here, which usually signals toward the end of the summer.   Speaker 1: Well, it's-   Tony Mauro: It's the last hurrah.   Speaker 1: It's hot. It has been hot for sure.   Tony Mauro: It's hot. Yeah, it's been hot here too.   Speaker 1: Yeah, it was 98 like the last four days in a row, but they said it felt like 110 or something like that.   Tony Mauro: Wow. Yeah. We got that coming again next week, so it'll be interesting.   Speaker 1: Well drink plenty of water, right?   Tony Mauro: Yeah. That's right.   Speaker 1: So you don't overdo it, especially for a lot of our demographic that we talk to and listens to the show. Making sure that you have plenty of water and stay hydrated is important, that's for sure. My mom, she's 82, and she does these daily PSAs on Facebook. She's like, "Morning y'all, it's going to be real hot. Drink water."   Tony Mauro: Uh-huh. Yeah. That's nice.   Speaker 1: I'm like, "All right, well there you go." But anyway, we're going to talk about some retirement planning complaints this week. So I've got some pretty basic statements here that people say often, Tony. So we'll talk about whether, like I said, these are well-founded or just full of misconceptions and just offer some insight.   Tony Mauro: Mm-hmm.   Speaker 1: So let's start with the first one here. My advisor takes too much risk. Obviously this has been something that people have said for often when things are not going well you go, "Oh well my advisor takes too much risk." But I would challenge the question of why is that? Is that because they're taking the risk without talking to you? Or have you gone through some scenarios? What do you think?   Tony Mauro: I hear this sometimes as well, and these first two couple topics here I can relate back to this last weekend when I was out visiting my son and my new daughter-in-law. And they're very young, 27, but she had made a comment like this, and so I asked her, "Well why? Why do you think that?" And the answer is what I get a lot, and that is, "Well it seems like my account's not going up." So I hear that a lot. I hear the fact that I'm not making as much as my neighbor, things like that. Or, like you say, when things are going down they think there's a lot of risk. And it might be the case, but it's not always. And I think, as I told her, "Well you just need to talk to them and explain what you think." And in her case, she's 27 years old, she's investing for retirement, long timeline.   Speaker 1: She should be taking risks.   Tony Mauro: [inaudible 00:02:58] a lot risk over the last few years. Yeah. And I looked at the funds that she's in and really they're actually very good funds, they just haven't done much the last year and a half. But I told her, I said, "That's not unusual in the market we're in." And she's not real risk averse, so I think that's one thing... I think if you just communicate with your advisor, talk about that kind of stuff. Or if-   Speaker 1: If you're feeling like they're doing it right, you got to first of all find out why.   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: Well, actually you mentioned account's not growing, so that's actually on my list, so I'm going to jump down to that one and pair these two together then.   Tony Mauro: Okay. Yeah.   Speaker 1: So they takes too much risk, or my accountant didn't grow much last year, and to me a lot of this seems like the same problem. And that problem is it's the highs and the lows. We all like the risk when it's up and nobody likes it when it's going down. And so last year obviously was a rough year '22, right? 2022 was a down year in the market. So this is probably your risk profile. To me this comes back to how are you allocated, right? So you hear somebody say, let's just make up a number, "The S&P was up 30%." All right?   Tony Mauro: Mm-hmm.   Speaker 1: And then you go, "But I only got 15, so my advisors not doing enough."   Tony Mauro: Right.   Speaker 1: Or then the inverse of that is, "The S&P was down 30%. Well phew, I only lost 15." Well, that's because of your risk portfolio, so you don't get all of it unless you're completely exposed.   Tony Mauro: And that's true. And with the whole "My accountant didn't grow last year", I got the same thing out of her. And I asked her the very same questions is, "Well, which accounts are we talking about here?" And of course it was the retirement accounts, and I quickly pointed out that, "You've got maybe 35, 40 years before you need this money." So it's easy for us as advisors, and I told her to say, "Don't worry about it." But in reality, you got to take a longer time horizon. And with your risk profile, like you said, and hers as being somewhat on the aggressive side, you can't let it be your main focus. She's focused on the wrong things. I think us as advisors got to remind them.   Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, and like a quarterback on a football team you get all the credit or all the blame. Right?   Tony Mauro: Mm-hmm.   Speaker 1: So it's like, "Oh man, my advisor did a great job. I made a bunch of money this year", or something like that. Well because there was an up year on the market and your portfolio was allocated properly for your risk tolerance.   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: Conversely, if that was the case and it was down, you'd also be happy because you didn't lose as much as your neighbor or whatever the case is.   Tony Mauro: Exactly.   Speaker 1: So it's all about that risk profile, making sure that you're taking the right amount for your situation versus the kind of generic common complaints.   All right, so that's two of them. So let's go to my fees are too high. And the statement here to me is always the same kind of thing. Nobody likes fees, we don't want to pay more than we have to. But what are you getting for the fees? Is that worth it?   Tony Mauro: And that's the question you have to ask, and it should be addressed when you start the relationship with your advisor, is understand how he or she's being compensated. Most are going to just be flat out and tell you, "This is how we do it." Some are asset based, which is a fancy term for taking a small percentage of the account value every year. Some are just regular fee based. It's X amount for me to help you every year, like a consulting fee, coaching fee, whatever you'd like to call it. And so as long as you feel like you're getting value for that fee that you're paying, I wouldn't tie it to investment returns. This is the fee, just like you'd pay an attorney, an accountant, anybody else to do things for you and keep you on track.   But on the flip side of that, if you're paying fees and you're not getting anything... Because one of my daughter-in-law's complaints was, "He never calls me." And I said, "Well, what would he call you about all the time? What do he want to talk about? Because you're not a stock picker, what do you want to talk about?" She just felt like, "Well, I think I should be getting talked to all the time." And I said, "Well, have you addressed that with them?" And she hadn't. I said, "Well, then they may not know that you want to do that. So your whole little fee that you're paying might be misaligned."   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: So I think it's communication, and I think that you have to understand what you're paying for. And then the services that are provided... I mean we try to list them out in exact number of calls and what you can expect and things like that, because that way there it lessens the chance of miscommunication.   Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the first two to me are definitely misconceptions in how you're probably working with your advisor. And if they're not, they're just straight up taking too much risk or whatever the case is that we covered on that first part and not listening to you when you say you don't want to be that far into it, well then that's obviously a problem.   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: With the fees are too high I feel like it's the same thing. It's probably based on misconceptions. It could be a little well-founded as well, but understanding what it is that you have, because certain products are going to have higher fees than others. So just making sure that you have that conversation point.   For the next one, social security won't be enough to cover my expenses. To me, this is totally a legitimate concern, because that's correct. It's not going to be enough to cover everything. It does a great job, but it's not everything.   Tony Mauro: No, it's not everything. And it is, that's a legitimate concern. And the easy answer to that is that's exactly why you A, need to plan, B, save and take the time. Like I said, as I told her, I keep going back to her, "You've got a lot of time, you just need to keep saving. Because a lot of people think that social security, if they haven't looked at it, is going to be enough." And like you said, it's nowhere near enough. It's a good start, good safety net, but you definitely need to plan and save. Otherwise it's going to be pretty paltry by the time you get to the end.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you've got to make sure that you realize that. And I think I've shared before my mom's in this situation where she's living on social security only and it's not the ideal situation that she wanted to find herself in. Through the course of decisions it's what's happened. So avoid that by doing some proper planning ahead of time and having the right pieces in the puzzle, and being aware that while it does a lot of things for you it's not going to cover everything. Now if you strategize right, maybe the social security is that income piece that takes care of the cost of living, let's say, and then you're pulling from your nest egg for the fun stuff. It just depends, right? It depends on how you structure your income strategy, and also depends on what you as a couple might be bringing in from that versus anything else.   Tony Mauro: Right.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. I don't understand my financial plan. This one I think is a fairly well-founded concern because sometimes people just aren't getting it. And maybe they don't do themselves the advocacy service of saying, "Hey, you know what? I'm sorry, I know you explained this, but I'm just not getting it. Can you help me go through it again?"   Tony Mauro: Yeah, I think you need to do that if you truly don't understand your plan. I also think that if you're in a relationship with an advisor and they are charging you fees, you should have a plan. In other words, it may not be on paper, but it should be in your portal or somewhere where you can access it. That's what we do, is we put the plan in the portal and it's all electronic. But the client can actually see, "Here are the major steps you said you wanted to tackle. First, second, third, and on and on and on. And here's what the whole plan looks like based on when we did it." And obviously then we change it over time and move goals around, but you should have that. And then it should be laid out in a way that it's not too complicated so that it's full of graphs and charts and things like that. It really should be more of, "Here are the goals, here's what we're going to do right now to try to achieve those goals", and then the progress towards those goals. And I think if you're having trouble with that then, again, requires a conversation. Ask them to explain it because it's your plan, you're paying for it. And so it's like anything else, you want to know what you've got.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. An older gentleman, older advisor taught me this years ago. I thought it was funny, I may have shared it on here before or not. But he was like, "I like to subscribe to the rule of 11." And I was like, "I don't think I'm familiar with that one." The rule of four and rule of 72, all that kind of stuff. And he's like, "Yeah, if you get your financial plan and then you can't turn around and explain that plan to an 11-year-old, it's too complicated."   Tony Mauro: I would agree with that.   Speaker 1: And I love that, right? Because it's like you got to be able to re-talk it to someone else.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. And you should be able to at least know what your major goals are and what you're doing to accomplish them. Do you need to know what the mutual fund and your retirement plan is doing and what investments they have? Maybe not, unless you're really into it. But yeah, you need to know the basics and you need to be able to explain it. Absolutely.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Definitely. So I thought that was a cute saying. I definitely loved that one.   All right, last one here. I only hear from my advisor when they want me to buy or sell something, I don't really get advice on other things. Absolutely a legitimate concern here. But maybe you should ask yourself what kind of professional did you go to? Because they may just be doing what they do, they may not do these other pieces. And that's kind of on us, I think sometimes, by not vetting out or seeing the right kind of professional we should be working with for the time of life we're in.   Tony Mauro: We should. And what that question is to me is saying the old days where everybody was considered a "broker". And you would see that. You'd see TV shows and movies about that kind of stuff too, but a lot of that's been moving away from transactional and more into an advisory role. And you do need to ask that question of if you've just got a broker... And some people want to do that. Although I don't know if it's as prevalent today, simply because there's so many ways to trade securities yourself now that you may or may not need that. But who knows, maybe you've got somebody that's like that. I think that that's, for most, not what you want. I think you might want more of an advisor, but you definitely should know who you're working with. And I think in our case, one of the things we do before we even take a client on is we sit them down and have them go through a questionnaire and they kind of score themselves.   But one of the landmines that I look for before working with a client is... And you can usually tell this by the way they're talking to you. Is if you just want to sit and trade stocks and have me give you recommendations and/or be the facilitator, I'm not your person because that's not what we do. You don't need us for that. You can go do that on your own. All you're going to end up doing is I think spending extra money. And then on top of that you're going to want us to give you recommendations, and then as soon as give them a bad one the blame game comes out.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: So I don't even engage in that. That's not what we do. There might be some advisors that do that, but I'm more focused on the long-term.   Speaker 1: Well yeah, and to your point you're probably working with a broker only. You're working with someone who's a transactional based, commission based person. Now there's nothing wrong with that if you know what it is that you have and if that's what you're looking for. But part of this complaint is I don't get advice on other things, well then you're not probably working with an actual true planner and advisor that is talking about social security and taxation and legacy and so on and so forth. So again, part of that I think is legitimate, but I think it also is a misconception, or could be on our part, for just not finding the right professional to work with. Or not realizing that who we started with is maybe not who we need to end up with kind of thing.   Tony Mauro: That's right. Yeah.   Speaker 1: All right, well there you go. So that's our conversation and podcast this week with Tony Mauro on Plan With The Tax Man. Reach out to Tony if you've got some questions or concerns about your own situation and need to get down to the nitty-gritty and get on the right plan and strategy for yourself. Again, you can find him online at yourplanningpros.com for a consultation and review. Yourplanningpros.com. Tony, thanks for hanging out buddy.   Tony Mauro: All right, well see you next time.   Speaker 1: I'll see you next time right here on the show. This has been Plan With The Tax Man.   Disclaimer: Securities offered through Avantax Investment ServicesSM. Member FINRA, S.I.P.C. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency

Almost everyone has made investment mistakes at some point. In this episode, we'll talk about how to bounce back from mistakes and avoid making them again in the future.   Important Links:  Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1: ... Back here for another edition of Plan With The Tax Man, into the month of August here in 2023. And it's time to talk about overcoming investment setbacks, bouncing back really if we've had some issues in our financial lives. And that's what we're going to get into this episode and how to, hopefully, avoid some of these again in the future. Things happen, we all make missteps and mistakes, but there's no reason we can't try to correct those and course correct and keep ourselves on the right path to get to and through retirement. So we're going to have that chat with Tony this week here on the podcast. What is going on, my friend? How are you? Tony: I am good. Just still enjoying the summer. It's going to be over before we know it here. Speaker 1: Well, we're into August, so yes. Tony: It'll be state fair time. Speaker 1: There you go. Now I got a little weakness for the funnel cakes there, the elephant ears. Tony: For the [inaudible 00:00:48]. Speaker 1: Yes, whatever you want to call them. Some places they call them elephant ears, someplace they call them funnel cakes. It's the same thing, but at least I think it is anyway. Now I'll tell you something though, I've never had one of these before and I didn't even realize it was a thing until I tried it. Have you ever had what they call the walking taco? I believe that's what they call it, where it's basically all the taco stuff inside a like Doritos bag or a Frito bag. Tony: A chip bag. Speaker 1: Yes, a chip bag. Tony: I have had it. I haven't had it at the fair, but I have had them. That's what they are. Speaker 1: I never saw one before until I saw one at the fair and I was like, "Ooh, this is calling my name. This is incredibly not good for me, but I don't care. I'm going to eat it ..." And it was fantastic. Tony: It is good, yes. Our fair is so big. It's a big highlight around here. And every year they put out what's new at the fair for the food list because everybody goes for the junk food. Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: And it's just incredible what we have. Just weird stuff, like everything's on a stick here. Speaker 1: All right. Tony: And it's fried and it's just crazy, the foods. But I don't know if you guys have a big state fair or not?- Speaker 1: Yes. Tony: ... but ours is big and- Speaker 1: Interesting stuff. Tony: ... I'm actually looking online here. I don't even know what some of this stuff is. Speaker 1: Like snicker bar on a stick? Tony: Yes, deep-fried sweet corn nugget. Sweet corn fried?- Speaker 1: The sweet corn and you deep-fry it. We'll- Tony: Deep-fry it. Speaker 1: Humans will deep-fry anything, I think Tony: I know it. We're Americans. Yes, we do a lot. Speaker 1: That's for sure. But anyway, well, hopefully you guys will enjoy and you don't get too crazy, make yourself sick to your stomach, but- Tony: We'll be bouncing back from fair. Speaker 1: You'll be bouncing back. There you go. Nice segue. I like it. I like that. Tony: That'd be a mistake. Speaker 1: That's right. Well, let's get into some of these financial bounce backs we might need to do. First thing you need to do, if you do have a financial misstep, Tony, is just obviously determine the cause, right? Tony: Yes. Speaker 1: So what's some bullet points here to think about how you got there in the first place? Tony: Well, most people are going to look at this and say, "Well, I mistimed some stock or some investment." Speaker 1: True. Tony: And most of the time what we see is the mistakes themselves are really not starting soon enough. And that means saving, and that's the biggest one of all. Yes, you can miss time and do that, but you shouldn't be trying to time anyway. But really what you got to do is, whatever the mistake is, whether it's that or just not starting soon enough or something else, is- Speaker 1: Bad luck, whatever. Tony: ... Just figure out, say what caused it, what kind of spot I was in my life when it happened, what kind of information did I have available to me? Maybe you're one of those people that listened to everybody but the right people about everything. Speaker 1: I always refer to that as the cousin Eddie, if anybody who's ever- Tony: Cousin Eddie. Speaker 1: ... Watched any of the vacation movies, right? Tony: Yes. Speaker 1: The cousin Eddie moments because he's always doing something goofy or wrong or whatever. He tells you advise and it's usually not good. Tony: It's usually not good. No. And we get that out on the tax side. Clients will call and say, "Well, I heard from such and such." And my first question is, "What does such and such do for a living?" And they'll say, "Well, he's a barber." And I say, "Well, I don't know that's really his realm to be giving that kind of advice." Speaker 1: To give you tax advice, right? Tony: Yes. So you get a lot of that and it's proliferated with the internet. You got to watch you listen to. Speaker 1: Oh, of course, yes. And that's usually the number one source of bad advice any more is the internet. Because it's- Tony: It is. Speaker 1: ... Just so much on there. Tony: There is so much on there. It is. And so you got to watch what you're getting. That could be a whole conversation on its own. You Google a topic and you think it's right, and it may or may not be. There are probably elements that are correct. Speaker 1: Exactly. Tony: But it might not be all of that. Speaker 1: There's actually a whole industry, Tony sorry, wrapped around internet ads that are designed to look like news articles or news stories so that you feel like it has a bit more realism to it. "Oh, this is news related or newsworthy." But it really is just an ad. It's just a solicitation or a sales piece. So definitely easy. So determining the cause, I think, great place. You've got to figure that out. Did you get the right information? Did you get enough information? Was it just bad timing? It's okay, you've made the mistake. You mentioned savings, so now we need to make up that difference we've lost. So what are some things to do as far as increasing our savings rates? Tony: Well, once you've identified the mistake, and if you have lost some money, the easy thing is to increase the savings. That's really not really all that complex on how to do that, but it's easy to be able to increase it. Especially as you progress in life, some of your expenses start to decrease, and so you're going to have more disposable income that you can then take and increase the savings rate. Speaker 1: The government gives us some catch up contribution provisions in various different things. So there's some of that, right? Tony: Yes, you can do that. You pay off a car, continue making the payment, but make it to yourself and put it in your retirement account or your savings account. Speaker 1: As my dad used to call us, maybe get the little ankle biters off of your payroll. He used to call us ankle biters. Tony: When you were kids. Yes, you do. You get the kids out of the house and then all of a sudden you've got an instant raise. And so there's a lot of ways to increase the savings rate. I've seen people go get a second job and say they just want to save more [inaudible 00:06:09]. Speaker 1: Depending on the kind of damage that you've had to the setback. And I think most of the time, if we've just made a mistake, Tony, it's usually not super detrimental, but you do want to recalibrate your goals or recalibrate your plan because maybe you did make a bad investment. Well, let's do something recent, maybe you got on the crypto train or something, and you were a crypto millionaire one week and you were crypto broke the next, whatever it might be. But that's when you say, "So now I've identified the problem. I know what I did wrong. Now we're working towards making that shortfall back up by increasing our savings contributions to paying our future self, AKA retirement fund. So now let's recalibrate that plan or recalibrate the goals." Right? Tony: Yes. And it's easy to do because, again, it doesn't take a lot, especially if you're talking through it with somebody who, well, and say, in my case, we visit with this clients all the time. It could be as easy as maybe delaying retirement for a year, could mean, hey, we just change our lifestyle a little bit and reduce our expenses. It's not going to be something drastic, and maybe you're in a giant home that you need to downsize and you could save some money there. Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: Maybe it's just watching things a little bit more until you feel more comfortable. I think- Speaker 1: You don't get the muscle car you've been wanting, or you don't get the- Tony: No. Speaker 1: Maybe you get the muscle car, but you just don't do all the remodel on it just yet. You don't do all the- Tony: Repairs. Speaker 1: ... Repairs just yet, or... Little ways you can do stuff, right? Tony: Yes. I have a retiree client and she calls me, and really a lot of our conversations are based around, for lack of a better word, me talking her off the ledge because she likes to put money in her home, and she really likes to keep it spruced up and remodeled. And I'm there really more for the sounding board of, well... She's got plenty of money and she could do it, but it's like, "Well, do you really need it right now? Maybe you take it a little slower so it doesn't affect the other fun stuff you like to do." And many times listen to that and follow along on those lines. But I think if she was out on her own, she would probably be dipping into and probably taking much more than she needs. Speaker 1: A little more often. Tony: More often. And then I think she would be not happy with that because she does like to balance it and do other things in life. And- Speaker 1: That's a great point. Tony: Again, balance is the key because- Speaker 1: Well, to me, I don't know, Tony, with all the technology we have at our fingertips now, I think a big portion of what you guys do as financial professionals is what they call behavioral management, right? Tony: It is. Speaker 1: Because- Tony: And much more so than investment management, yes. Speaker 1: It can be, right? Because just about everybody's got the same software, just about everybody's got the same access to the various different things out there, depending on what kind of license that you have as a financial professional, but really it's relationship building and that behavioral management. To your point to that story you just told this client's comfortable calling you up and saying, "All right, I'm thinking about doing something silly. What do you think?" And then you talk through it and you go, "Based on where we're at, go ahead and go for it." Or "If you do, maybe we're going to make a change to that vacation that was planned for next year." Or something like that. Tony: Yes. And then that's all it comes down to is just some simple discussion. Speaker 1: And then rework the plan. Tony: And you got to rework the plan a little bit. It's funny because from our standpoint, we take a lot of notes so we can remind the clients like, "Well, last time we talked you said this, but you can change your mind. But that is what you said last time." It's a fun conversation. You can have fun with it. But it is interesting because I think clients, you could survive it, of course, yourself, but you may make bigger mistakes and take longer to recover- Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: ... Without some advice of some kind. Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's when getting a real plan in place certainly comes into play. So maybe if you're in a situation, Tony, where you've made a financial mistake and you haven't started working with a professional yet, now is the time to really do it. And often, it's like going to the dentist, I hate to equate what you do with going to the dentist, but it's the same kind of feeling sometimes where we're like, I just know he's going to say or she's going to tell me something bad and it's going to cost me pain. In this case, the dentist analogy, and then maybe you wind up going and it's not nearly as bad as you thought. And I think that's what happens with advisors a lot. People are like, "Oh no, I'm going to go in there and I'm going to have to tell them what I did, or I have to show them my stuff and it's going to be painful and they're going to tell me I can never retire." All those kinds of things. Tony: Oh, I know it. Speaker 1: And often it's not nearly as bad as we think that it is. I think as humans, we just do that naturally. Tony: We do. I've actually got a client, as you were saying, that in fact we're emailing back and forth this week, he's an accounting client, not a financial planning client. He's got an advisor. And I don't think the advisor's giving him bad advice, but what the client wants to do, and get this, he's about, I don't know 63, 64, he wants to pull a million dollars out of his retirement account because him and his wife found a little place and a little acreage, and they want to build a house on it. It's just south of where we're at. And he's a big outdoors guy. And so he's trying to rationalize this with me and his advisor as his tax account. And I'm saying, "Well, boy, you're going to owe a lot of tax on that. Maybe you want to split it up." The advisor's telling him, "Well, maybe you want to just go borrow because you're going to pull all this out, and then when you start to need this for income, it's tied up in your house." Which she's got a point too. Speaker 1: Well, she does have a point there, but borrowing right now, it is not a borrower's market. Tony: That's what the client's saying is, it's not a borrower's market. So we're trying to put some numbers together and say, well, if you borrowed, here's how much it's going to cost you, if you spread the tax out. And try to get the best scenario for him, and then he'll have to make that decision. But- Speaker 1: Exactly. Tony: And he's got me on the tax side, his advisor on the advisory side, both trying to help him make the right decision and whatnot. Speaker 1: And that's interesting. Tony: But that goes back to really maybe if he didn't have us, he would probably... Because what he wanted to do is just pull out all the money in one year and pay the taxes. And he thought that would be a better deal than spreading it out. And I said, "No. Here, here's the exact numbers because I've got them right off your tax check." Speaker 1: Going to kick you up a tax bracket and all sorts of stuff. Tony: It would've cost him like $75,000. And I said, at least spread it out to save 75,000. But it's just one of those things though, where even though he has a plan in place, he's changing his plan because he wants something in his life and hey, there's nothing wrong with it. But- Speaker 1: Exactly. They're modifying the plan, that's part of the process because they think life's going to happen, we're going to do different things. And me personally, I think kudos to you and him as well for doing that. But oftentimes many advisors, they struggle with that whole split thing where you're the tax person, the CPA, but you're also not doing the financial side because it is hard when you have two different people giving you, maybe, conflicting advice. So as the person in the middle, sometimes you wind up being in a tough spot, but at the same time, at least he does have those sounding boards. So I think- Tony: He's got that. And for me, if we have an accounting or tax relationship, if they've got an advisor- Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: ... Of course that they like, I like to think we're on the same team. Unless the person was completely crazed and- Speaker 1: Bad advice. Tony: ... Offering horrible advice, but try to be on the same team because- Speaker 1: Sure. Tony: ... I don't want to interfere with that relationship and you just don't know. But some accountants don't like it, some advisors don't like it. Speaker 1: I was going to say, it just depends on the relationship and again, kudos to everybody from making that work. But that's a great illustration though of why even if you make a mistake or have a looming mistake, having a financial team to help you out can go a long way towards hopefully staving off a financial mistake or bouncing back from one. So that was a topic this week. Hopefully that helps out a little bit. And if you have made a mistake and you're worried about going and seeing a finance professional, don't. The longer you procrastinate, just like that tooth, that dentist analogy I was going with, it's only going to hurt worse. It's only going to get worse if you ignore it. And when you finally do go to the dentist and then you maybe have to have a root canal and then it's all more expensive and more painful. So go find out what you need. Go get a plan together for where you're at in life, whether you've made any mistakes or not. And that way, even if the news is not great, at least you know what you now need to start doing in order to get yourself into that better spot. Sooner is always better than later. So get yourself onto the calendar. Reach out to Tony and his team at yourplanningpros.com. That's your planningpros.com. He is a CPA, a CFP, an EA of 27 plus years experience. So get onto the calendar today at yourplanningpros.com Tony, thanks for hanging out, buddy. Tony: We'll see you next time. Speaker 1: See you later on this month, in August, we'll be getting closer to football season for all you football bands. So we will catch you next time here on Plan With The Tax Man with Tony Mauro from Tax Doctor Inc. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Google, and Spotify.   Disclaimer: Securities offered through Avantax Investment ServicesSM. Member FINRA, S.I.P.C. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency.

Today's episode is all about understanding the crucial role of income analysis in retirement planning. We'll uncover the secrets of guaranteed income versus the uncertain stuff and shed light on the consequences of retiring without a clear income plan. Don't worry if you're feeling lost - we've got your back with practical solutions and expert guidance. Tune in and take charge of your retirement cash flow!   Important Links:  Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1  0:00  Welcome into another edition of the podcast. It's playing with the tax man with Tony Mauro and myself here to talk about mastering some retirement cash flow really kind of understanding income is going to be the topic conversation on the podcast this week with Tony. Who is de Moines professional alternative at tax Doctor Inc. And you can find them online at your planning proz.com at your planning proz.com What's going on, buddy? How are you?   Speaker 2  0:25  I'm good enjoying the summer? How about you?   Speaker 1  0:27  Yeah, pretty much the same. It's been a bit of wet one, though. It's been a lot of lot of rain. Yeah, down here where we're at. It's been a lot of rain. So   Speaker 2  0:32  yeah, we have not had a lot of rain. And we just got some scoring well needed. Yeah, it's funny   Speaker 1  0:37  how the country does that Right? Talk to several people all the time every week. And it's, it's always a little something different. And then whatever neck of the woods you happen to be in. So right here lately, it's just been been really wet. So our Fourth of July got kind of rained out. But that's okay. We still had a good time and with family and friends. And so everybody out for everybody else that as well. We are back here. This is for our our later July edition here. So this is our second half of July. So let's get into understanding some income. Because you know, cash is king. We've heard that Tony a million times. But in retirement incomes King right? Income is always King in retirement. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I guess it is all the time. But it's really, it's really more important, or certainly critically important in retirement. So what's kind of some scenarios that some issues that you can be looking at, if you don't really have a good clear picture of your retirement income?   Speaker 2  1:33  If you're, you know, if you're kind of DIY, and you're thinking, well, I'll just figure it out when I get there. What are some of the issues you've seen people bump into, you know, I've seen, I've seen a lot of it up this way. And some of the people that own land, and farms and whatnot can probably relate to this. But I've seen, you know, retirees come in, and they'll say, you know, I'm ready to hang it up. But I've, I've got all this land, you know, but the land itself isn't really producing any income. So while they have a lot of assets, that that asset or assets isn't really throwing off any income? I see that a lot. Yeah, yeah, I see a lot of people trying to work their retirement income from a basket of, or a portfolio of securities that they had when they were younger, and trying to kind of make shift pull money out, you know, as they need it. Because they don't have a real clear picture. In other words, most of the time, it's, you know, not income generating stocks, and they're just going to wait for prices to go up. And, you know, hopefully sell and make gains and use that when that doesn't happen, or, or it takes longer than expected. They're stuck with out income. Well, I'd like to make life app,   Speaker 1  2:36  I guess what we should do is maybe identify some potential sources of income that people might have as a retired person. So what are some examples of different places that you know, you might be able to draw income from depending on obviously your life? Right? Well,   Speaker 2  2:51  I mean, the list is long, but the easy ones are, you know, your 401 K's pensions, if you have one, IRAs, of course, Social Security. Yeah, that's the big one. Everybody knows if you have some annuities, dividends and income and interest income from either investments, or bank accounts, CDs, things like that bonds, some of you could have some other type of income, you know, maybe you're working part time, maybe you are doing a little side hustle. And you've got some income coming from that. Yeah, yeah, sure. All of those things are potentials, but the three or four biggies prior Social Security, IRAs and 401 K's.   Speaker 1  3:29  So you know, we talk often about being diversified Tony in the realm of investments. And I think that's where people's mind goes to, okay, I need to be diversified and not have too much in large cap or, you know, or something like that. But you really also want diversification of income sources. So you're not relying overly heavily on just one. And obviously, the big one here to think about is if you've not done any planning, or you've not done any savings properly, or some things happen in your own social security, either completely, or it's making most of what you need to live on. And I'll throw my mom under the bus with this, because unfortunately, that's where she's at in her life in her 80s. Now, I help her out. But you know, from her own potential standpoint, that's where she got she lost just about everything in the Oh, eight downturn, and in addition to some bad choices and things of that nature. She's on Social Security only. And that is clearly not where we want to be.   Speaker 2  4:23  That's definitely not really where you want to be. And I've seen that too. And I've seen tax clients that get to the end. And that's really it. Because at that point, you are, it's impossible to try to generate other sources of income, you know, because your timetable it's got Yeah, it's just too late, you know, and so most of these sources need to be thought out along the way. And so which, again, begs the question of, you got to you got to get a plan and you got to work the plan, which we're always talking about. And, you know, that   Speaker 1  4:52  importance of saving, you know, paying your future self right, Exactly.   Speaker 2  4:57  Yeah, I mean, that's what it isn't, you know, it's hard for to take Get a 65 year old and even if they've got a large portfolio, say of of stocks or bonds or something like that and say, well, let's, let's let's diversify a little bit and go out and buy for rentals, you know, that might not be the wisest move, because, you know, they take, even though they could throw off some income, for example, well, you know, that's actually work, you know, and they may not be the wisest of choices. But you know, for a guy that's had rentals for a long time and wants to continue to have them in retirement, you know, it's a great another source. But I do think you're right, we're really trying to aim for before we even talk about what types of earnings you're getting on them or what the income is, but the different sources, the I think the more you different sources you have the more potential to really live the retirement you want.   Speaker 1  5:43  Exactly. And that way, you're not overly reliant on any one thing, which again, is that diversification key. So let's talk about the two kinds of income in the way that most advisors, I think, probably categorize this or people have heard it, which is going to be what, what are the two kind of ways we would think about income? Well, a lot of times people think about it as guaranteed versus not guaranteed. Right. And, you know, I like to phrase it a you know, on the guaranteed side is guaranteed for as long as you live. So security first. Yeah, that's the first security.   Speaker 2  6:19  yeah. If you have an annuity and you annuitize it, you know, it kind of becomes like a social security payment. It's annuitize.   Speaker 1  6:26  So security check even say annuity on the top of it, I think. I think it does, yeah, anyway.   Speaker 2  6:31  So those are the two, you know, and if you do and are lucky enough to have an old fashioned pension that works the same way, you know, it's a monthly income stream for life. So if you've got those, those are kind of, you can't make changes to them. You know, I mean, you get x and that's it. It's over when generally,   Speaker 1  6:49  yeah, whatever you like, whenever you turn on your Social Security, you know, that's your that's what you're locked into that kind of, that's what you're like, yeah, and you're not guaranteed is that's going to be the that's gonna be our personal stuff, right?   Speaker 2  7:00  As we all have personal stuff, your IRAs 401 K savings, you know, pretty much everything else that you're kind of hoping to use in retirement, and I say non guaranteed, because it you know, you have to initiate, I mean, even if the IRA or 401 K or your investments, you know, fully invested, you got to initiate Okay, and figure out how much is it going to earn? And how much can I take, and so in that could fluctuate a little bit. And that's why most advisors when they start talking about retirement, you know, and you hear a lot about, well, what's the sustainable rate? You know, is it 4%? Is it 3% 5% That I can take out month in month out every year, you know, and maybe not use my principal, or maybe some of my principal, but because retirees, you know, we're, again, we're thinking about that income of how much do I need every month? And then how much you know, above that? Do I do I want?   Speaker 1  7:52  Well, so if we're thinking about guaranteed versus non guaranteed now, balance was where I was going to go with this, I got ahead of myself. So you know, somebody might say, well, what's the proper balance? Like, I want more of the guaranteed many of us would just say that, because we feel like, okay, great, that means that we're covered. But often if you're thinking about this, okay, so if that's where the strategizing comes in, because let's say you've got your, your assets that you've built up of, let's just keep it an easy number, a million dollars, right? And a 401k, or whatever, you know, various different sources like that. And then you got your Social Security, your polling, and the balance that comes into play, Tony, when you're trying to figure out how much you need to pull from what place at what time to create that difference of that shortfall, but also not cause yourself taxation issues, correct?   Speaker 2  8:36  Correct. Yeah. And that's where the good planning comes in more for retirees. I think that even people, you know, just trying to get to the end, right. They're working because, yeah, yeah, in the working years, but it really comes down to, you know, sitting down and trying to analyze what your expenses are, so you can figure out what is covered what isn't, I think a lot of times, people don't realize that, even on the non guaranteed side, once you get this number, or your shortfall number. And depending on what you have, you know, it's fairly easily to predict, especially with today's software, where you can take a person's, let's say, let's say they had a million dollars, and we were going to assume a 4% withdrawal rate you can easily see based on different investments scenarios, how much predictability or what percentage of the time if they live to say 95 to 100? Would they absolutely run out of money and, and so then they could sit there and say, okay, so you know, there's a, for example, a 95% chance, if I have x amount of my guaranteed side, and I take my Million Dollar Portfolio invested in such a way that it's going to throw off X that I'm never going to run out of money and I I've already got everything covered, plus what I want to do and then they can feel good about that, you know, and that's, that's where the numbers come in.   Speaker 1  9:55  Well, now many of us have heard the term paycheck and play check. And if not, I think that was actually coined by Tom hegner, I believe, financial professional as well, you know, so typically, we might think of, okay, well, I need that guaranteed money. That's my quote unquote, paycheck, right? That's covering my must haves and must haves, or you know, the house, rent, or mortgage or food, right? You know, the things we have to have. And then the paycheck side, often people say, well, that's gonna be the non guaranteed and that's the fun stuff in retirement. Do you see that as kind of accurate? Or is that still a really is there other strategizing to where maybe we want to try to pay for everything out of those paychecks and then let the paychecks grow or be really special.   Speaker 2  10:40  you know, a one off kind of deals, I suggest that to some people that are in in the position where they're guaranteed side can cover everything. Right, you know, I don't have any clients right now that have taken me up on that, you know, that say, I want my my stash my paycheck side to just sit and grow for legacy for right. Yeah,   Unknown Speaker  11:00  I guess it depends on your what you want. Right? Legacy is a great, yeah.   Speaker 2  11:03  Yeah. But it is it is a point to consider. I mean, most of the people that we work with, even their you know, without increasing their, their lifestyle, the guaranteed side, the paycheck side is not generally fully covered by guaranteed stuff. Right. And so we all right, yeah, it's a shortfall. Yeah. And so we're kind of dipping into and then we got to show them. Well, you know, but you know, that shortfall could easily be covered by the other side of things. Yeah, the   Speaker 1  11:31  million bucks put away. Let's say that was the exam. Yeah. And that's I think that's where most of us go right, Tony, I mean, because unless you're lucky enough to have a pension. And so because, like the like the milking stool philosophy, right, the analogy, excuse me, were the three legs of a milking stool, right you so if you've got a pension and Social Security, usually a fairly modest or even or a good, you know, nest egg built of your own, you may not have to touch that nest egg very often, because the Social Security in the pension covers it. But most of us are not in that boat. So Right. So that shortfall is a little bigger, because we don't have that quote unquote, pension leg. That's true. Yes. And even,   Speaker 2  12:06  I mean, it's hard to to find these days, where they've got that, you know, because most people aren't in, you know, a place for 3540 years, most places don't have pensions, like government, right, or stay at, let's say, government. And so there is that shortfall. Now, in my own personal situation, my wife happens to be in a government spot. She's been there for 35 years. And so she has our IPERs, which, even though it's extremely good, you know, it doesn't replace 100% of her salary, but it replaces about 70%. And so the   Speaker 1  12:38  shortfall, you gotta kind of you may have to look at like your own personal nest egg, correct my own   Speaker 2  12:42  personal essay, and then she's gonna have Social Security on top of that. So I think with, like, in her case, about 80% of her pre retirement income is going to be covered. And so that's pretty pretty darn close, you know, and then with the other investments, you know, we have and whatnot that that's our play, check slash, fill in the gap money. And that's what you go with, you know, when you got to get engineering   Speaker 1  13:08  well, so and this is where I guess the strategizing of maximization for your income streams or sources, comes into play, right? So having a good conversation, having a good strategy, put together with an advisor, like yourself, so we can it cuz we hear like terms like, hey, get us Social Security Maximization, right? For example. What's the strategy for doing that? And that's really where working with a Pro comes into place is we talk all the time, Tony about the DIY movement of the last number of years has been very easy. It's in it's been easy for quite a while, let's be honest, to accumulate money, right? So if you do the basics, you can probably save, you know, for your future self. But the retirement aspect, that preservation distribution, and the little funky nuances of how to maximize this, what's the best strategy for that? How's it gonna affect tax aid, you know, taxation by taking this money out at this time, and so on. And so that's where the nitty gritty gets really tough for folks. And that's where, obviously, you know, folks like you come in   Speaker 2  14:05  it is and even with a Social Security, you know, planning for because everybody's got the question, Well, should I take it early? Or? I'm gonna take it a second I, you know, I for retirement benefits they owe me it's mine. Right? Yeah, it's mine, you know, and so I tried to talk to him about well, but if we do this, based on what you have, it might be better to wait, you know, type of thing. And I know, and big money that we're talking to, can be big money, big money. And in my own case, again, back to my wife's pension, you know, the, one of the decisions we'll have to make is, well, do we want to just take the straight pension and then when she dies, if she dies before me, I'm out, or do we want to make sure it takes a little less and so you know, if she dies before me, I've still got it till I die, you know, and then run that it's over. So it's those kinds of little decisions you got to put a pencil to and try to figure out what's best for your own situation.   Speaker 1  14:57  Yeah, and often you definitely want to make sure you're making the right one there. or because, depending again on the strategy, because some people might say, well, we're gonna take the bigger dollar option, which does eliminate the spousal often, right. And so if you do that you better have that backup plan in place to know that the spouse is still covered, once that pension runs out, so or the exactly person passes away prematurely, or, you know, whatever the case might be. So there's a lot of little nuances to that. So understanding your income is really important. So this is kind of a quick rundown of some of some different categories you might find. And, again, the guaranteed versus the non guaranteed and how they kind of all play together. And that's why it's important to get a plan and a strategy. So if you need some help, and you're not already working with Tony, reach out to him and have a conversation, hopefully this kind of sparked some interest for you to start thinking about, Yeah, where is my income sources coming from? Or how do I make my 401 K and income source, things like that? Reach out to Tony and his team at tax Doctor Inc. find them online at your planning proz.com That's you're planning proz.com or call him at 844-707-7381. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast playing with the tax man on Apple, Google or Spotify. Alright, Tony, thanks for hanging out, buddy. I appreciate it.   Unknown Speaker  16:06  All right. We'll see you next time. Yeah,   Speaker 1  16:07  I'll see you in a couple of weeks and we'll be back in August with a new episode here on plan with the tax man   Disclaimer: Securities offered through Avantax Investment ServicesSM. Member FINRA, S.I.P.C. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency.

On this week's show, we'll answer some mailbag questions that have come in. We'll discuss if you should pay off your house, financially support adult children, and how often you should communicate with your advisor.   Important Links:  Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1: Back for another edition of Plan With The Tax Man, with Tony Mauro, from Tax Doctor Inc. We're going to talk, well, actually, email questions this week. We haven't done an email show for a while, so we're going to take some questions from folks that have sent stuff into the office, or the website at yourplanningpros.com. That's yourplanningpros.com. You can get your questions asked and answered, and get yourself some time on Tony's calendar to sit down and talk about your retirement situation, or your tax situation. Tony is a CPA, CFP and EA of over 27 years experience, and a great resource for you to tap into here. Well, he's got clients all over the place, but his office is in Des Moines, so reach out to him online at yourplanningpros.com. What's going on, my friend? How are you? Tony : I'm good. Enjoying the summer. How about you? Speaker 1: Doing the same. Hanging in there, rocking and rolling. Well, actually, about the time we're going to drop this, it's going to be probably right after 4th of July, so I hope that you had a good 4th of July. We're taping it ahead of 4th of July, but we're dropping it after, so hopefully you have a good one. Tony : Yeah, yeah. Hopefully everybody out there is going to get out and get a chance to enjoy the summertime. I like the summers the best. Speaker 1: Any 4th of July plans, both since we're ahead of time? Tony : Not much for us this year. Probably just relaxing around home a little bit. Maybe playing a little golf, and watch fireworks. Yeah. Speaker 1: There you go. Sounds like a plan. Yeah, we got some family coming in. We'll be around the pool, hot dogs and burgers, and all that good stuff. Classic 4th of July for us. Anyway, hope everybody has a good one, and had a good one, I should say by the time you're catching this podcast. But let's go ahead and take some email questions, Tony, from around the area, we'll have a fairly short podcast this week, but we'll see if we can help some folks out. We got an email from Tony, and it was not you. Tony : Yep. Speaker 1: But Tony did say, "Hey, Tony, I'm hesitant to pay off my house, because I don't have many other tax deductions at this point, but I do have a hundred grand on the bank, and only owe 45 grand on the house, so I'm really tempted to pay it off. What's your thoughts?" Tony : I'd tell Tony to pay it off. Speaker 1: Yeah? Tony : I'll tell you why. A lot of people get hung up on, "I don't have any other tax deductions," and they don't realize how, especially with only a $45,000 mortgage, how little their tax deduction really is, if even they can use it on the federal side, because they don't have a lot of other deductions. This particular deduction goes on a schedule A, and there's a threshold you have to get over, which is, for singles $12,000 and some change. If you don't have other deductions to get you over that, you won't even be able to use it. I would say that even if, let's say your mortgage interest, for example, is $2,000, $3,000 a year on that, probably even be [inaudible 00:02:37] by now, your tax savings, if you're in a 20% bracket, maybe $600 versus, I don't know how much you're spending on the mortgage, but let's say your mortgage payment's $800 a month, times 12, that's $9,600 a year. I'd rather have that in my cash flow, and build that a hundred thousand back up. Then keep letting that money grow. Speaker 1: Yeah. Tony : That's my philosophy. I'm not a big debt guy. Especially, I like to not have a lot of debt, and I advise people not to carry a lot of debt. Speaker 1: Now, the tax deduction- Tony : Obviously... Oh, go ahead. Speaker 1: Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there. The tax deduction part of this question is a moot point right now, correct? Tony : It is. Speaker 1: Yeah. Tony : Yeah, it is a moot point. I think that you're better off long-term, is snowballing your cash flow, and it won't take you long to recoup the money, the $45,000. Then it's just all gravy from there, and you're out of that debt. But obviously, you can't do that if you're a young person going out, and just buying their first home, generally. Speaker 1: Right, right. Tony : But you could try to pay it off early. Speaker 1: Well, this is always an interesting question, when we get something like this, Tony, because first of all, okay, he's probably still sitting on a pretty nice rate, right? Tony : Sure. Speaker 1: He's got a $100,000 in the bank, he owes $45,000, he's probably paying like 3%, is my guess. He's probably had this mortgage for a while. It's probably before the rates started going back up. Many people do find themselves wondering, "Well okay, right now, even at in a CD I could get 5%, is it worth doing a short-term CD, or something, and getting more than I'm losing on the house? But to your point, there's the emotional factor, and he's so close that it's like, "Well, all right, maybe this difference is not that massive," that it's not draining you down too much. I think that's always the math. Then you do all the math, and then you add in the tummy factor to go, "Just how much better would I feel not having the mortgage on my head?" Tony : That's right. Speaker 1: Yeah. Tony : That's right, and multiply that out over the number of years. But at the end of the day, yeah, it's the math, and it's pretty easy math to do, you just got to lay it all out. Speaker 1: Yeah, very true. All right, well great question, Tony. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast, and congratulations on being in such great shape as well. $45,000 on the house is, obviously, awfully fantastic. Whatever you do there, certainly kudos for that. Of course the team's going to reach out to you anyway, since you've submitted the email and has. But for other folks who are in a similar situation, that's why we share these emails, because if it's happening for one person, it's probably happening to another somewhere. That way, if you've got a similar question, you can run the numbers specifically for yourself by reaching out to Tony and his team at Tax Doctor Inc. You can find them online at yourplanningpros.com. All right, let's go to David. David says, "Tony, I'm positive that I have more than enough money saved to last the rest of my life. There's just no way I could spend it all. I'm not bragging, I just find myself to be in a blessed position. Is there any advice you'd give to someone like me, or can I just coast, financially speaking?" Tony : Yeah, I would say to David, not knowing any more than what you've submitted, I would say, and this is a little bit of a fun response, but prove it. What I mean by that is, congrats on the fact that you think you've saved enough, but maybe get some advice from your advisor, or someone else, put in some numbers to it just to see. Because one person might say, "I have enough to for the rest of my life," and that could be a million. Another person, it may take 10 million. You just don't know, because it depends on your spending habits, and what some of the things you want to do are. Then of course your longevity, and everything else. I would just maybe double check it. Get an opinion, and then if that verifies it, then I would say work the plan you've got, and then you could be, quote, on Easy Street the rest of your life. But maybe you might find something that you didn't think of, and you might have to rethink a couple of things there. Speaker 1: When it comes to situations like David's, always good just to find out for sure. He says he knows, and he's not bragging. I guess my first question, when I see stuff like this, Tony, is, well, how do you know for sure? Is it because you've done the math, and you've run it out? He may be right. Is it because you've sat down and talked with a professional, and you have a written plan and a strategy that you know you're fine? Or are you back of the napkin this? Now granted, I don't know David. If you're sitting on $40 million, you probably are good. Tony : Absolutely, yeah. Speaker 1: But if it's the age-old question of, "Hey, I've got 2 million bucks," or, "I've got a million bucks," or whatever, "I'm in great shape." Maybe, right? Tony : Maybe. Speaker 1: There's so many variables. I hope that you are in a great shape, and I would say, to find out if you could coast, just sit down and have a complimentary review done, and find out. Run the numbers, make sure. Stress test it for multiple scenarios, whether if you check out our prior podcast, whether something comes up like a medical issue, or something. There's just lots of things that could come up and derail you. Just have them stress test it, Tony. That's one of the things you guys do. You can run various scenarios in case he is incorrect or correct. Tony : We can, yeah. With today's software, on the financial planning side, you can easily take a portfolio, and run run the numbers, ask him a few easy questions on how long would you like to run this for, and your life expectancy type thing. Give me a rate, a good conservative rate, and the software is going to spit out and say, "Your chances of outliving your money are only 5%, or maybe it's 0%." In other words, you've got enough money, based on what you've told it, you are right, or maybe you aren't as as you thought. Speaker 1: Yeah, very true. Especially when it's complimentary, and it's easy to do, no reason not to get a second opinion on the strategy you have in place. Great question. Thanks so much for listening to the podcast. We certainly appreciate it. All right, let's go to Kate. Kate's got a tough one here. She says, "Tony, my son's 27 years old, hasn't landed a legitimate job since he finished college four years ago. We've been supporting him, car insurance, cell phone, that kind of thing. I'm not going to be able to continue to do this much longer; in a couple of years I plan to retire. How do I cut him off without making this a big problem?" That's a tough one, right, Tony? Because there's a fine line between helping and enabling. Tony : There is. That that's a tough one, and it comes a lot down to how you think. My personal opinion would be, well, a couple of things, I guess, is if he's 27, he's been out for four years. I don't know what legitimate job means. Is he working at all? But let's say that he is, or if he isn't, well then that that's a different problem, then you probably are enabling him, and not forcing him to find something. But if he just is working, and maybe not making the money he thought he was going to, or whatnot, then I think by helping him, maybe you're not enabling him, but at some point you have to have a tough conversation. Just explain it to him that we need to start weaning you off, or cutting this back. Maybe you do it in steps to help him out, rather than just pulling the rug out from under him. There are things that people can do. I tell my own son this is, there's easy ways to go make more money. One is just go work more, trade your time for money. If you have to do it to pay your bills, you'll find a way, generally. That's a little bit more of the tough love, I guess you could say. Speaker 1: I agree, Tony, and I think a lot of times, what happens to people in this situation is some people will come in to see you, and sit down for a planning process. They'll say, "Hey, we want to enjoy our retirement. Whatever's left over, the kids get." I think, to me, that's the healthiest approach. Others will say, "We want to leave them a bunch," and others will say, "We're doing something like Kate's doing, and we're doing a ton of helping." But at some point, you start to sacrifice your own retirement, and the success of your retirement plan. Maybe Kate's plan has gone from all this helping, has gone from 100% surety for her own retirement, her and maybe her spouse, down to 80%. Is 80% good enough for you? If you keep helping him, if it goes down to 70% chance that you're going to be okay in retirement, is that acceptable? At some point, we have to not help our kids to the detriment of our own life. Because what's going to happen is, Kate, you're going to end up on his couch at some point. It's going to flip. [inaudible 00:11:18] Right? Tony : Yeah, it's going to flip. Speaker 1: Then neither one of you're going to be happy. It's tough. Tony : It is. I've seen it. That happens, and I don't understand it. I see it with clients, and even some family members, that are still helping their kids, and they're 30 years old and married, and they both have jobs. It isn't like they're destitute. I could see if your child, and I would help my kid as well. Speaker 1: Yeah, we all- Tony : He falls on hard times, everybody's going to help him, but with some constraints, and some, maybe, rules, and whatnot. I don't think you want to let them get to a point where they know that, or maybe they don't know, but they just feel like, "Well, Mom and Dad's always going to be there, no matter what." Which we are, but most of us probably want to stay in the background, only help if you really fall on tough times. I think some of these young people, I don't know, I just feel like they're just freewheeling. I think they need to do a little bit more to help themselves. If, truly, he's in a profession, he's not making the money he wants. He's young enough, he certainly can go out and find something new, and maybe even retrain, go take some classes. Speaker 1: Yeah, and to your point, you started to touch on something there, and we'll move on to the next one. But also, does he know how badly he's affecting your retirement, Kate? If you're not being honest with him either, and you're just helping him, and not saying, "Hey, listen, we need to have a chat, because this is what it's doing to us." He may be, like, "Oh crap, I didn't mean to do that. Let's make some changes." Tony : Absolutely. Speaker 1: It's got to be communication in there, as well. Lots of things to think about. Great question. Tough spot to be in, Kate, but I think you're probably doing yourself, and him, a service by starting to cut this off, in some form or fashion. But anyway, always talk with the professional, make sure, also, again, another reason to run the review, Tony, to make sure that Kate's own retirement is not in bad peril from the help itself. Tony : Exactly. Yeah. Speaker 1: All right, final one this week. Laura says, "Tony, I like my financial advisor. I enjoy the podcast, so I've been listening. It's nice to listen to you guys. I'm reaching out because, well, they're hard to get in touch with. I rarely get phone calls returned, and I just wonder if my account is not large enough for him to pay attention to me. I've got about $350,000 with him, and I believe most of his clients are doing considerably better than I am. Is this a common problem within the industry?" Tony : In some cases it might be, but to dissect it a little bit for Laura, it depends on how much, since I don't know how much you're trying to get ahold of him, because some clients tend to think, in his corner on this, defending him a little bit. But just basically, if a client thinks that they need a call every week, every two weeks, just to discuss market conditions, that might be, and hopefully you're not that way, but generally, then they get mad when the advisor won't call them back. Speaker 1: Sure, that's a little unreasonable, because you've got tons of clients, but- Tony : It's unreasonable, yeah. But at the same time, he or she should, when you decide to work with them, be very upfront about the communication, how much of it is going to happen, and how often, because often that way everybody's on the same page. Speaker 1: How often you [inaudible 00:14:45] meetings and stuff like that, right? Tony : Yeah. You're just setting expectations. Speaker 1: Yup. Tony : If they haven't done that with you, or even if they have, and you're just talking about what I would consider probably once a quarter type of call, when you're getting together and reviewing things, even if it's every other quarter, so twice a year, then I think that they should at least be cordial, and prompt enough to, if not return the call, get your questions answered somehow, whether it be a quick Zoom call or email. Speaker 1: I would think, Tony, in a situation where, maybe the client's being a little unreasonable, and again, we don't know that Laura is, we're just talking speculation, but if a client is being unreasonable, someone on the staff is probably going to be reaching out anyway saying, "Look, we've addressed this conversation, or whatever. We just don't have the manpower, or whatever, to every single time. That's what the plan is for. We got to stick with the plan." If you want to schedule a review, that's a different conversation, I guess. But yeah, I think a lot of people find themselves in this situation with advisors, or they've been with a firm for a while, and unfortunately I think there is some truth to the size of the account. Sometimes it's not a big enough account for them to jump up when, maybe, a random call does come in, versus a scheduled one. Think about the size of the firm, Tony, you guys are what I would call a boutique firm, versus- Tony : I would say we're boutique firm. Speaker 1: Yeah, versus a giant big box with 35 advisors in a building, four story building, or something like that. Because that's what you choose. You want a small boutique firm. Some clients are looking for that, because there they do feel like they're a name, not a number. Maybe Laura's working at a firm where she feels more like a number. I don't know. Tony : She could be. If the financial advisor's doing, what I feel like they should be doing, is that when a client calls in, they may not be able to jump right on the call, but- Speaker 1: Of course not. Right. Yeah. Tony : But they should have a staff in place to say, "Okay, well, let's schedule a call for this date, and then let me know what we're going to be talking about." Then we jump on a call, and we do it. But I think some advisors, it is true out there, where they institute minimums, because it is a business at the end of the day. Some advisors have this stigma of, "I can't really make any legitimate living unless my clients have X with me." Speaker 1: Right. Tony : That, I think, is to the detriment of everybody. But I understand, because there are people out there that, and there's nothing wrong with it, because you got to start somewhere that, I want to open up a $2,000 IRA this year, and I want weekly meetings, and we want to discuss. Most advisors are going to say, "Well, that's just not profitable for me. Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not the right business model for- Tony : ... at the end of the day. Speaker 1: Yeah. Tony : Yeah. Speaker 1: That's the other piece of it too. That's the expectation conversation you brought up. Tony : Yes. Speaker 1: Not only when you go to sit down with someone is the expectations about the meetings, and how often you're getting together and discussing things, and the strategy and the plan, but also, is it a worthwhile business venture for both? I think a lot of times people are auditioning an advisor, they don't realize the advisor is auditioning them right back. It's got to be a good relationship both ways. Tony : It really does. When we interview clients, we basically, we'll sit them down in a room, by themselves, with a sheet of paper. It's got about 10 or 12 questions on it, and they'll just rate themselves, and we say, "We'll be back in 20 minutes." Then we come in, and start discussing, and I'm auditioning them as well. I'm looking for landmines. Speaker 1: Yeah. Tony : I'm looking for, "Do they really have some pain that they need help with, or want help versus I just want somebody to talk to, type of thing?" Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, you can't help, literally, every person. Tony : You can't. Speaker 1: You'd love to, but at the same time, your business model is that boutique firm. There's only so many hours in a day that you can see people. Tony : That you can do it, yeah. Speaker 1: But I would say with Laura, $350,000 is not $3,500. Tony : No, not at all. Speaker 1: I would say it's a substantial amount of money, I think, to anybody. They should at least be getting back in touch with you somehow, and scheduling calls. Tony : Yeah. Speaker 1: Because I don't think that would be right. Okay. All right. Well, great questions and of course, obviously, Tony and his team are going to reach out to everyone, and have reached out to folks that sent these emails in. But if you've got similar questions, or you feel like you're in a similar boat, reach out to Tony and his staff, and have a conversation for yourself. Get set up with a time to come in for a complimentary review with the team at Tax Doctor Inc. You can find them online at yourplanningpros.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Google, or Spotify, which you can find at the website as well. Again, it's yourplanningpros.com, and you can drop an email if you'd like as well. We take some from time to time, and ask him here on the show. But either way, reach out to a qualified professional, like Tony, he's been helping families for many, many, many years. He's a CPA, CFP, and an EA, and he's here to help. Tony, thanks for hanging out, buddy, and answering these questions. I always appreciate your time. Tony : All right, we'll see you next time. Speaker 1: Yep, absolutely. We'll see you a little later on, in July. In the meantime, enjoy the summer, and we'll catch you later on Plan With The Tax Man.   Disclaimer: Securities offered through Avantax Investment ServicesSM. Member FINRA, S.I.P.C. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency.

Ever find yourself reminiscing about the good old days when tunes from The Tragically Hip filled the airwaves? My pals, Tim and Pete, and I sure did, as we took a deep dive into their 6th studio album, Phantom Power. We discovered that our own past experiences and relationships managed to shape our views on this collection of radio hits, which seemed like a pivotal moment for the band. We weren't just content with superficially jamming out to the music. We dissected the unique sound and lyrical themes, compared them to previous Hip releases, and found ourselves swapping stories from past concerts. One standout memory was Tim being recognized by lead vocalist Gord Downie backstage. We also discussed the historical context of the album, like how its recording coincided with a major ice storm and a surprise tour that benefited a children's cancer camp. Stick around as we analyze some standout tunes like 'Poets' and its references to Gwen Jacobs' fight for women's equality. We also shared our thoughts on 'Fireworks' and how it reminded us of Canada's victory in the hockey series against Russia in 1972. So, whether you're a die-hard Hip fan or just love a good music chat, this episode is for you!TranscriptSpeaker 1 It's June of 1998 and I'm done with York University. To celebrate, my friends and I embarked on a camping trip to the Pinary Provincial Park just down the road from Grand Bend. It was just outside the liquor store in town that I heard a finished version of Pullets for the first time. Gord had long been one of my favorite Pullets, so to me this song resonated in a way that I can't quite describe. It was a feeling of euphoria and relief. This new record was going to be just fine, i thought to myself. Little did I know that several tracks on this record would stand the test of time and join the pantheon of great hip songs I still enjoy to this day, from the meandering escape is at hand to the traveling man, to the exquisite Bob Cajun and the downright delicious Emperor Penguin. Phantom power was right in the pocket, coming off of the exceptional trouble at the henhouse. As I got inside the truck to head back to the campsite I turned the volume up and just let Pullets sink into my brain. This was living. Today. We're going to hear from our friends Pete and Tim to check out what they think of Phantom power. Will it stack up? Find out today. On Getting Hip to the Hip. 0:01:41 - Speaker 2 Long sliced brewery presents Getting Hip to the Hip Hey it's JD here. 0:01:58 - Speaker 1 Welcome back to Getting Hip to the Hip. This week we are talking about Phantom Power, the sixth studio record by Seminole Canadian rock band, the Tragically Hip. I'm joined this week, as always, by my pals Tim and Pete Fellas. how are you doing? 0:02:19 - Speaker 3 Hey guys, hey guys, hey guys, glad to be here. Good to see you, i'm ecstatic to be here. 0:02:26 - Speaker 4 I'm ecstatic to be here right now. 0:02:27 - Speaker 1 Oh, I love it. 0:02:28 - Speaker 4 I love the energy This is happier than a pig and shit. 0:02:31 - Speaker 1 Oh boy, oh boy, that's pretty happy. I've seen some, some porcine creatures rolling in fecal matter and they sure love it. Okay, so if you are wanting to experience The Tragically Hip's music for the first time, tim and Pete are your avatars this week because they got to experience the record Phantom Power, which again is the sixth record produced by Steve Berlin, first record on Universal. But I guess I should tell you guys both. I guess I should say this to you both as honorary Canadians. Now, happy Canada Day. It's almost the 4th of July. It's July 3rd today, but it's July 4th tomorrow for you, but July 1st for us is Canada Day. So happy Canada Day, folks. 0:03:20 - Speaker 4 Wow, Yeah, Very close to the other 4th of July, which is America's Independence Day. In the UK they call that Thanksgiving. No, No, I had a. I took a flight one time on some shitty airline and the pilot was British and it was on the 4th of July and he was like so I just want to say you know, that's my shitty British accent Happy 4th of July was we call it. We're on from Thanksgiving. Enjoy Whatever. 0:03:57 - Speaker 1 That's great. Oh, anytime you can burn an American a little bit, it's. you know there's some fun. There's some fun there because you guys are so goddamn good at this shit, you know Anyway let's get into the record as a whole. Before we go into the song by song segment, let's just talk about this record, produced, like I said, by Steve Berlin. Five singles come from this record. All music rates at a three out of five Three. So there's that. What did you guys think? I want to know where you listen to it, how you listen to it and what your initial thoughts were, and you know, maybe, what they percolated up to. What do you say there, tim? 0:04:45 - Speaker 3 Well, there's a pause. I thought it was a three star album, kind of like all music I felt wasn't really sure. it felt a little bit deluded in a way. to me It felt a little bit, a little bit more generic from what I've heard in the past. But it also felt kind of expected for the whole catalog of albums this band has produced and the timeline going into the late 90s. You know this album felt like full of radio hits but at the same time I was missing a little bit of that raw kind of hip feeling. You know, i was wondering like, should I be okay with this album just being kind of fine? This was the turning point for me. I was really not sure. When I read kind of some reviews about it, i think there was some sentiment, some shared sentiment, and also some people were like it's my favorite album and some hip fans said it's their least favorite album. So this one's kind of a gray area for me. 0:06:00 - Speaker 1 It's funny. Well, I'll get into my, you know, sort of backgrounder on this for you guys after we hear from Pete. Pete, what did you think? 0:06:09 - Speaker 4 I hear you on the gray area, because I could totally see that. I could totally see how some hip fans are like this is the best album they did. Or this is not my favorite album. For me I listen to it everywhere. I listen to it in my office, so for my computer, with some some decent cans, i took it out running a lot. Probably. I think maybe the first time I listened to it was that took it in the car. It sounded great. The thing I found like I would say 3.5 for me, tim, instead of a 3. But you know I feel you on that My initial thoughts were that a lot of rawness of the hip was gone from this. In the first couple of listens it sounded very watered down. It was like somebody pulled Gord Downey aside and said Hey man, can we just like, kind of like the dude, can you, can, you fucking can you take it easy, man, you know, just like. Told him to just like chill out a little bit, and I don't know. The more I listen to it though, the more I dug into it and see how much work maybe not production, but just from the band themselves went into this record maybe changed my tune a lot Like I dig it. And Phantom Power, that was the coolest thing in the 90s, man Like because sometimes you didn't know what it was. If you never heard of Phantom Power before, it has a fucking cool name. If you had a guy that had like a condenser mic or something with Phantom Power, you're like dude, yeah, he's got a mic, that's got a Phantom Power. It was just like fucking. You were 17 and you heard that it was fucking cool. 0:08:00 - Speaker 3 Yeah, you know, i went and looked at a number of albums sold by a bunch of different bands, including the hip, and I was trying to kind of have this try to find this correlation of how many albums sold from the band start to like 10 years later, or 10 albums later, something like that. And I compared the hip with a bunch of bands And it's, it's. It's really all apples, oranges, of course, but when you look at how many albums they've sold and how they, you know, started off selling a ton and then just kind of went down to this million album mark. And then when I heard this album and I like UP, i listened to it all over the place. I listened to it on the plane I traveled, listened to it in the car, listened to it at home with the cans on. I mean I listened to it in more places than past listens because I was really trying to give it a go. I mean, it was the first time, upon first listened, that there were a couple songs where I was like okay, get it, i'm going to go to the next one, like I had not fast forwarded songs, you had her skipped ahead. So this, yeah, but but one of those songs that I skipped ahead on, sorry hip fans. You know I came back to and it's might be one of my most favorite on the album, so this this one like yeah, this one, this one to me like didn't grab me right away. Maybe it will more over time, maybe it's one of those types of albums, but well, i'll tell you what this record has. 0:09:36 - Speaker 1 An interesting, an interesting story, i think, and it it's my own headcanon This is. This is not like actual fact by any stretch, but in my opinion, trouble at the Henhouse, which is one of my absolute favorite records by the Tragically Hip or or or any other band, is, was maligned Like it, it, it, it, it both it and day for night didn't perform as well as fully, completely, and fully completely was very, if you recall, it was very polished, it was very produced. You know they went to London to record it. It was like a big deal. And then, following that, the next two records, they were sort of self-produced, with Mark Vreakin and Mark Howard on day for night and just Vreakin on fully, on Trouble at the Henhouse, and those records are sparse and they are. The core energy is, is there, it's, it's. It's like boiling hot magma, you know, and they're and they're forming these songs that are just age old now and and just wonderful, and then phantom power comes out and phantom power goes back to the like. To me it's sort of back to the back, to the basics. It's like back to really structured songs, really produced, and, like I always said, that this record was the baby of day for night and fully and completely, fully, completely, rather not fully and completely fully. It's sort of the baby of those two records. It's got the, it's got the production values, but it's still got songs. So I'll challenge you guys on that, because I think this record has songs and I think it has songs for days. You know what? 0:11:40 - Speaker 4 you are JD, let me tell you who you are. So when I was like 19 or 18, working with the movie theater, i dated this girl that that worked at the calendar place across the way And I just kind of went out with her because I was like really stoked. She gave me your number But I really wasn't that into her and all my friends were like, dude, she's really hot man, she's really amazing, and I just didn't see it. And so then like I stopped going out with her. We only went out a couple of times and that was that. And then I saw her again. I was like, damn, i really screwed that one up And that's kind of felt with this record, but I didn't want to like make that same mistake again. So like I, i'm sticking with it. I'm sticking with this being a solid album. Yeah, you know, yeah Masked it for, you know, a third and fourth date. 0:12:26 - Speaker 1 Yeah, i think, and I think three out of five stars is fair Like it's not it's not one of my. it's not my favorite record, but it's a lot of hit pants favorite record It's a lot Yeah, yeah. 0:12:39 - Speaker 3 That's that's what I found in my research. The covers are awesome. The covers are great. 0:12:43 - Speaker 1 They have that They actually have that panel in in their studio and bath, which is really cool. Yeah, so that's, you know this is. I want to say this is the second record they recorded at their studio. So they didn't go anywhere, you know, adventurous or anything like that, but they were at home. And what happened in 1998, i don't know if it made news anywhere else but Quebec and Ontario there was a major ice storm, yeah, major ice storm, and in Ontario it, like it absolutely shut down the city of Toronto. It shut down, you know, major thoroughfares. It was like devastating this ice storm. And we'll get into that a little bit more as we talk about the songs. But you know, they bring Berlin in and they're sort of trapped in the studio. You know like during during this, so really fascinating I think. 0:13:43 - Speaker 3 But yeah, it's a go ahead. Did you see this tour? Did you see them play on this tour? You want to hear a story Now? 0:13:52 - Speaker 1 people who listen to the movie and completely heard this. But the hip announced five secret shows that they were going to do, and all proceeds from these shows were going to go to a charity I forget which charity now at the oh, it was Camp Trillium. Camp Trillium, which is a camp for children with cancer, children that have cancer, and there's a location of that is near where I grew up And I'll show you when we, when you're in town for the finale. My friend's parents were on the committee for the cancer camp in our community, and so my friend Heather had intel and she she knew that they were going to go on sale at this time in this place in Hamilton, which is about an hour outside of Toronto, when traffic's good, and so we ended up getting third row center seats Wow, in this small theater in Hamilton, like 2000 people, and they blew the roof off the place. And a band called oh my goodness. They sang, come for a ride. Open for them, and they were tremendous as well. I forget the bands right now who open for them, but if you know it, send me an email. Jd at getting hip to the hipcom. So we're third row center. We watched the show, But the kicker here is is that Heather has got gifts to give the band And it's been arranged with the stage manager that we're going to go backstage afterwards to give. She's going to go backstage afterwards to give these gifts And she ended up inviting me along And so we got to go backstage and I introduced her to the tragic lab. So this was like this was like full circle for the two of us And it was just a wonderful experience. We went backstage after the show and they were all there and Gord had a. Gord Downey had a soccer ball And he was doing that thing where you flip it out, catch it and roll it back in your arms. Flip it out, catch it, roll it back in your arms And he just kept doing that And I remember at one point I must have looked silly or something, because somebody said and maybe it was Gord Downey said is everything all right? And I said, oh, everything is fucking perfect. I could go outside and get hit by a bus right now And it just wouldn't matter. And Gord Downey looked at me and he goes Oh, don't do that, jane. He called me Jane, only my mom calls me Jane. Like it was so cool It was cool. 0:16:37 - Speaker 4 How did I not know the story? How did I not know that you had interactions with Jesus? 0:16:44 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, how was this? 0:16:45 - Speaker 4 coming up in episode. What fucking episode are we on. 0:16:48 - Speaker 1 Well, it was Tim asked me the question, yeah. 0:16:50 - Speaker 3 I don't know. We're like 15 minutes in. I think we could just call it. That was good enough. 0:16:55 - Speaker 1 Well, here's the kicker. Here's the kicker. I don't think I told this part on fully and completely, but the kicker is I had been dating a girl all through university and I broke up with her the summer of 98 and sewed my wild oats And this was all toward the end of the summer of 98. And she was in Hamilton to meet me after the show. So I'm backstage with the hip and they go Okay, well, we're going to go to the after party now in the next room over, because this was in the green room or whatever And we're going to go in the after party room and drink some beers. Do you guys want to join us? And I had to say no. I had to say no because my girlfriend was waiting outside for me. Now, in hindsight, what a boner move I made, because I wanted to get back together with her. Totally. It only lasted another two years after that, like I then absolutely blew up, but it was those. Those final two years were awful anyway, like they just weren't, you know, like both of us would agree to that now I'm sure the university years were wonderful, they were, they were great, but those those two years after our break up we're not so good And I blew a chance to go party with the hip. 0:18:15 - Speaker 3 You had a Davis Manning moment. 0:18:18 - Speaker 1 Yes, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 0:18:22 - Speaker 3 He chose the girl over your fandom. 0:18:25 - Speaker 1 The hip lived between us. 0:18:27 - Speaker 3 They totally lived between you. They might still sorry, sorry, jess. 0:18:38 - Speaker 1 Well, folks, should we go song by song? 0:18:41 - Speaker 3 Yeah, let's do it, let's do it. 0:18:44 - Speaker 4 So I really liked this song. I really liked poets. This is probably the song I would say I have the least to say about. I really like the verse phrasing. I think it's probably the best part of this song, the way he phrases the verses. There's a part where the lines of a verse he kind of like carries into the next measure. It's really weird, like, like, like the mind, you think, okay, you sing the verse, then it's the next measure, but like he sings that verse over there Because it's when you look at it it's a complete line. I can't remember the line specifically, but it was. It was cool man. It's a hard thing to pull off man, but like that guy just does. It was so much, so much finesse. I liked the layered guitars in it, yeah. But I think, going back to what we're saying sort of at the beginning of the top of the show, it was, this song didn't punch me in the face Like right when I, right when I started listening, i dug it. I it was a soft open, it was a soft open. 0:19:59 - Speaker 1 All right, how'd you feel, tim? 0:20:01 - Speaker 3 I felt it was a harder open. I thought it was it. You know this. Like we've talked about before the cadence of songs and track orders. You know the first one I expect to really get me, bring me in, and this one did it. I thought it was pretty good. There's a fun kind of change over into the chorus It again I spoke about this a little bit before, but the kind of remind me of REM in REM's, like first half of the 90's albums, like they come on with like a punch of a song and then, like the cadence of the album kind of goes soft and then gets whoa, got a little dirty there, gets a little bit harder as time evolves. But yeah, this I thought this was a good start off. The themes you know I looked into a little bit of the song's meaning regarding lyrics and you know just talk about agriculture and super farms and like I don't know, ultimately fresh vegetables versus buying frozen and what that means. And this, this is the song that references Gwen Jacobs. Right, you know the story about her JD, and she was this woman who walked into town I think in Ontario topless and it created this whole. I don't have to look into this more, but I'm pretty sure this was the song about the Gwen Jacobs case. So Gwen was a woman who walked through town topless and was arrested and started this whole kind of woman's lib. You know movement with. You know making it okay to cut your lawn without a shirt on, just like the men do. That's kind of where the line in here from Gord comes from. It's a let's see. 0:22:02 - Speaker 1 Oh, that's great Lawn caught by breasted women. 0:22:04 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it's kind of this comment on pushing for women's equality and gender rights. So I thought that was fucking cool And that, to me also, is like really appropriate for the 90s or late 90s, you know it was. we were kind of circling back to, of course, some things we've had in North America before and prior decades. So I thought this song was cool. Again, it really reminded me of REM. I kind of went back and started looking at some of REM's albums and I wish, again, i wish I could know what the band listened to when they were traveling Me too. You know what they were sharing, what albums they were digging. you know if any of them were like Oh my God, did you hear REM's new one? We're going to put it in the the the buses stereo or whatever. Like I wish I could know what was influencing them, because I'm hearing, i'm hearing some some themes for sure. 0:22:57 - Speaker 1 Okay, earlier I was telling you about the ice storm. The next track, something on, was recorded and they literally were trapped in the studio. They were, you know, they couldn't leave the bath house, they couldn't leave the studio in bath. So they did what they do best They wrote a song and there's some lyrical content in there about the ice storm even And I think it's really wonderful lyricism. What did you guys think of something on? 0:23:33 - Speaker 3 I felt like, okay, i read about it, i read about this and I read about the ice storm and you know sounded awful. And for I hate to say this, but to go get stuck in a studio, for me that'd be like the time to really fuck things up, like really experiment. You know, you know, just hopefully somebody shows up with a huge bag of weed and somebody shows up with a bunch of acid and somebody shows up with a shit ton of beer and like this is when you like really go to town to experiment and what do we got out of it? We got like kind of a radio hit. So it was a little surprise to kind of hear the whole story and it just made me realize that maybe for this era, the guys were really I mean, they were at a point to where they could bust out a really good album, you know, and what, for me, that really good album is? like you go to a restaurant and it's like yo, that was a good meal. You know, everything was like satisfactory. 0:24:37 - Speaker 1 Well, yeah, it's a blooming onion man. 0:24:38 - Speaker 3 It's a blooming onion, Yeah, but to get stuck in a studio and ice storm, it's like I personally would want to just start going places. I haven't been before with my band, but you know this one's interesting take. Yeah, this one felt. This one felt a little radio felt a little you too, dave Matthews like splash of John Cougar melon camp or something like I don't know. Man, it felt, i know. I know, i know, i know. 0:25:10 - Speaker 1 And I was a big melon camp guy at one point. 0:25:13 - Speaker 4 But Dave, Matthews are regular. 0:25:16 - Speaker 1 Cougar and regular. 0:25:18 - Speaker 3 Yeah, like I couldn't get overly excited about this one. Well, again. 0:25:26 - Speaker 1 I think you were waiting for the follow up from the follow up to trouble at the house, and this isn't the follow up that you're expecting on a trajectory perspective. You know no no, i agree. 0:25:44 - Speaker 4 It's funny. You talk about getting trapped in the studio, like I mean, i don't know if I'd go like full steely Dan when they recorded the Albuquerque show, where, like you know, there maybe was not that much cocaine around, but I still agree with him, i would. I'd get really spacey, and I think they do it on a couple songs that we'll get into, but first time I heard this song got some heavy Jim Blossom's feels. Yeah yeah, Yes that's the first thing that hit me and I couldn't think of any of the band that it was like a buddy of mine used to play the band that they open for them a ton, and I was like the first band that came to mind like this Oh, and it was really poppy. And okay, my notes. Once you get past the repeated cheesiness of the chord progression and the vocal melody, it's not a bad song. 0:26:40 - Speaker 1 Oh dammit, with faint praise here. No, no, no, it's not a bad song. 0:26:44 - Speaker 4 I think it's a good song, but you know it's a good song. If, like you, take this song and go, is this a good song? Anybody will say it's a good song, but like you, said to me compared to the follow up of what you really wanted after trouble. Then else, and this was a song where I feel like Gord sounded a bit like he was put in the cage Like whoever was a universal when this record was getting recorded, put baby in the corner. And this is a song where really I feel like you know he's, he wants to be himself, but somebody's like, hey, man, just could you like you don't have to do it all the songs, but like at least on this one could you just, fucking, you know, tone it down a little bit. And I was just like, ah, where's my fucking, where's my lead singer. 0:27:33 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I totally agree, Because you know it's still a good song, because it's still all the guys and it still has themes, because it's Gord, you know you're still going to get one liners that are amazing. I feel like probably no matter what in any hip song there's going to be some standout lyric to me, some standout part like to the core fan. That's. That's really what I'm imagining. The line that stood out in this one for me was your imaginations having puppies, I mean yeah, yeah. I've had so many letters of puppies, you guys. It's like I'm just, i've got puppies all over the place. It's like. 0:28:11 - Speaker 4 I was a cool. I really like that one. Yeah, like that, like that video for new recruits or something. 0:28:17 - Speaker 3 Yeah, so I like identified in it. You know, at that personal level, which I think they're able to do just about on any song which is fucking amazing for a band to do, because I could probably name 10 bands right now. What that does not happen to me, yeah, so you know. So, in that regard, like hip fans, you know I'm, i'm I'm not really trying not to be the bad guy here, but we this, this, this just made this song, just made me keep going So into save the planet. I mean, i got to this one, arrived at this one, and I was like, is this the band's fucking Earth Day song? or stretch their reach to get on the farm aid bill, like what is going on here? I felt like I don't know, there's a flute in there. Who's playing the flute? 0:29:09 - Speaker 1 Who plays the flute? You know, i don't. I don't have the liner notes handy And on the wiki page it is remarkably barren in terms of additional players. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't have them, so I need people to write in. 0:29:25 - Speaker 3 If people know, let us know, because there's some flute in there And it made me wonder like what else? 0:29:31 - Speaker 1 there's keys all over this record. 0:29:33 - Speaker 3 Yeah, what else have I been missing in the background that maybe other people are participating in? But I felt, like you know this song, in the placement we were, we were filling, we were filling in the gaps on the menu And you're like, no, I had a burger yesterday. No, I'm not in the mood for that. Oh, I could really use some lasagna. Here we go. That's that's how Save the Planet felt, felt very time appropriate. This is, like you know, the millennial song. 0:30:02 - Speaker 1 Okay. 0:30:03 - Speaker 4 All right. So if anybody's got a line on the flute player, email Tim getting hip to the hip, talk there you go. Right, i copy Pete at getting hip Yeah. Save the Planet. I thought it was a banger. I really dug it. I at first I saw that too, but then I kind of look past the name of it And just look at the song itself. There's a. There's two references in this album to Crossing the Street, to pedestrian crossings. Yes, i'll point out the other one. This is the first one Fucking solo bangs in this. I thought the flute at the end was cool because it was so random. 0:30:47 - Speaker 3 I was like well, what the fuck is that? Yeah? 0:30:50 - Speaker 4 Same. 0:30:52 - Speaker 1 There's. You just can't imagine listening to road apples and having a flute right Like. It's just not part of this band. You know like and and and it works It works well, no, right? 0:31:05 - Speaker 4 Yeah, you know, if they went into that I'd be like, well, what the fuck's going on? 0:31:10 - Speaker 3 But I'll just quickly, quickly add that I'm okay with the flute. Like sometimes, the flute really is awesome. Oh, i think it's great. So you know, like some people like hear the flute and they're like oh why You know, but it works. 0:31:24 - Speaker 4 No, i dug it And this is again. This is not the first song, or not the only song in this record where I got some heavy Alanis vibes. The phrasing on if the bathwater is clear and my ears underwater, it's a tolerant hum from the core. Carry the water Like that the way he phrases that shit, it's just. I don't know if I see because it's a Canadian band, if I see everything through the lens of like Canadian pop artists. But like it's just the vibe I got from this and it's a great tune to get out and move your feet to get running. It's a fucking cool song to run. 0:32:09 - Speaker 3 All right, i'll put it on my point first I hear your Alanis vibes marry and up with my Michael Stipe vibes. I think those are in sync for sure, for sure. 0:32:20 - Speaker 1 I think there's a nice correlation between the hip and REM, like I think you're right, like they both have that enigmatic front man, you know, who is really literate and really interesting in the way they sort of phrase things and put things together. 0:32:39 - Speaker 4 They both went bold too, halfway through the careers, that's right, that's a fair point. 0:32:45 - Speaker 1 Fair point, fair point, all right, we're getting in the car right now and we are cruising northeast of here and we're going to Bob Cajun. I left your house this morning. 0:33:40 - Speaker 7 It was quarter after nine. I left your house this morning. I left your house this morning. I drove back to town this morning This morning with working on my mind, i thought I'd maybe try to leave an ear behind. I went back to bed this morning and it's time pulling down the blind. Yeah, the sky was dull, it was high but never come. And morning went down at a time that night in Toronto And I was jacking boardboards, riding on horseback and keeping order restored. Tell the men they couldn't hide. Step to the mic and sign and their voices rang with the area of time. To your house this morning. It was quarter after nine. In the middle of that riot I couldn't get you off of my mind. To your house this morning. It was just a little hour tonight Cause it was in my page on the rossard and constellation, but they themselves won't starve at time. To your house this morning It's a little after nine Cause it was in my page on the rossard and constellation, but they themselves won't starve at time. 0:37:32 - Speaker 5 Tell the men they couldn't hide, they didn't choose your bones and bones. They're all south of the wind and down the lawn to the lake For as long as it takes. 0:38:05 - Speaker 7 I don't want to be a hill of the birds last hour. I don't want the last words out of my mouth to be stained Out of my way. 0:38:16 - Speaker 4 Okay, I fucking love this tune. I got some heavy and Tim, yes or yes. If I hear no, I'm just I'm off this podcast Got some really strong G love special sauce vibes from this. Yes, Just the way they owe up. Am I my GD? 0:38:42 - Speaker 1 I don't know, i think I think I'm very familiar. 0:38:46 - Speaker 3 I did not go there, but I will Okay. 0:38:51 - Speaker 4 Right, i mean the. there's a oh dude that it could have been Willie, could have been the wine. I heard that song. The first time I heard that song I was. I took it out for a run and I came home and I like I listened to it again because I just thought it was such a good fucking song, because it's a weed. reference to may not necessarily be about them listening to Willie Nelson. It's like they were smoking weed or they were drinking wine, absolutely Yeah. The opening, like spacey guitar licks The dobro which I think he's playing. there's a dobro in there that he's playing which kind of gets sort of like a banjo slash guitar vibe. Oh God, just. 0:39:40 - Speaker 1 I feel like that lyric that you just quoted, though, could have been the Willie Nelson, could have been the wine. That's like one, like when he wrote that he should have just put the book down, put on a fedora, long overcoat, grabbed his briefcase, just went home for the day, that's. That's the days. That's the day at the office, that's a fucking. Exactly. 0:40:00 - Speaker 4 That's just a great lyric Exactly dude, no, 100%, it's so good. I was like you know. You know, a line is a good line when you hear it and it's so good you think you've heard it before. Meaning like I'm like right, i mean because it just sounds like it belongs on this in the history of life, Like like someone has, like if someone hadn't said it, they sure as shit should have said it. Does that make sense? Yeah, you know, it sounds like it's just. It's a great fucking line. I thought I maybe quit that line. It's just. It's really the part of this song where Gord starts coming out of the cage. On this record, i feel like that was the moment Somebody gave, somebody unlocked the door of the cage and he's starting to come out, and then the song ends on a random minor chord, which is so weird, it's such a happy, spacey song that ends on this minor chord. 0:41:09 - Speaker 3 I loved that. I loved that about it. So for me this one it felt a little Out of the gates. I need to listen to the beginning of it to see your G-Love reference. But out of the gates. It felt to me a little bit country and a little bit like are we reaching again for some crossover fans Along? the southern belt of the US. Like where are we? What's happening here? You know there's some slide guitar, but is it a song about lost love? You know looking up at the stars waiting for a reveal. You know there's synth work in here again, so there's some sort of keyboard happening, which is fucking cool. And to me, the first lesson I had all those kind of questions going through my head And then I thought at one moment like this is actually a fucking beautiful song. Like it's a little bit of an odd man out on the album, but it's actually a beautiful song. There's this long ending with no singing. It's just mysterious. Like you said, pete, the last five seconds or so, or this just bizarre tune out. It's like I found one quote when Gord was asked about this song. He said this was an interview in 2004,. He said this one asks the question evil in the open or evil just below the surface? That was his comment about this song. So it's like this song to me was super mysterious Yeah, super mysterious song which I fucking love, like I don't need literal storytelling every single song you know. Social themes, i don't know all these different things, i don't need that. Every single song I love you know kind of the knuckleball that comes in. You're like whoa okay, this is reeling me back in to the album in a good way, a way that I'm looking for, you know, i'm hoping for, but still, again, this one felt a little bit odd, man, just the way it fits into the album. They've done this before. They've gotten. 0:43:15 - Speaker 4 They lose green man. 0:43:16 - Speaker 3 Yeah, they've gone on this path of like okay, this one, now we're going to turn off the highway and head down this two-lane road and we're going to stop at this farm and we're going to have an afternoon barbecue with this family, and you know, i don't know, like it's just this one's off the highway. 0:43:35 - Speaker 1 Cool. What do you guys think of the bridge? It makes my arm hair stand up That night in Toronto with the checkerboard floors. There's a bar in Toronto that's famous legendary in fact called the Horseshoe and that references the Horseshoe, the checkerboard floors. Oh shit, that's one of the first big gigs they played in Toronto. 0:43:55 - Speaker 4 Can I get taken to that bar when I come visit Toronto? 0:43:57 - Speaker 1 Absolutely. Let's do it. Sure shit hopes so man. 0:44:00 - Speaker 4 That would be cool. This song is actually the most listened to hip song on Spotify. 0:44:07 - Speaker 1 Oh, wow Yeah. 0:44:09 - Speaker 3 Surpasses. I read something about that as well. 0:44:13 - Speaker 4 What was the one that it surpassed? 0:44:16 - Speaker 1 I can't remember Anyway yeah Well, so it's a hit all around Pop Cage. 0:44:21 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it was a fucking interesting song, right? This is. 0:44:25 - Speaker 1 So we shift gears now in a well, not in a huge way, because this is sort of low tempo or slower tempo. We go to Thompson Girl and you're both hesitating to start Thompson Girl. 0:44:41 - Speaker 4 Go ahead Tim. 0:44:42 - Speaker 3 Yeah, well, you know what's the story about here. I don't know. It's the story potentially about where is it here, This town in Manitoba, thompson, yeah, or it's. You know it's potentially about a nickel mining company up there. You know it's got this kind of sweet, forlorn grunt work somewhere between dream and duty, poking through with all them shoots of beauty. I mean, what is that about? You know, this is kind of a cute, in a way stripped down acoustic song. There's some banjo in there. You know, i've kind of been waiting for, I had been waiting for this type of stripped down, simpler song that you know it's kind of this forlorn, sad song to me at the same time. 0:45:42 - Speaker 1 Probably Pete. 0:45:44 - Speaker 4 I loved it. I thought it was cool. I think I don't know if it's consistent with you and I, tim, but like I really try not to look too deep into the lyrics because oftentimes I'm disappointed, that's why I don't do it. I know you do it a lot more than I do I totally do. 0:46:03 - Speaker 3 I mean it's because of Gord, like Gord Gord. for me, gord merits it. 0:46:09 - Speaker 4 I get intrigued though, but like dude so does. I mentioned Celie Daner earlier. Like Donald Fagan's lyrics are notoriously cool as fuck. But have you ever asked that guy like what he you know what's, what's the meaning of? you know Dr Woo or whatever, like he'll be, like I don't know man, we're on so much cocaine. Back in the day I was just getting shipped to prime or whatever you know like, and I know that's not really the case here. But that line, the way he goes up so high with grunt work, i can't. I'm not even gonna fucking try lest I fucking destroy your listener base JD by singing that line. But when he goes grunt work time between dream and duty the melody is so fucking good It's then there's a part. Um, i don't know if it's like, i don't know, i wouldn't call it the bridge, but it is a bit of a some sort of key change to the regular chord progression. When he goes really high and then the mandolin starts to come in fucking dug that. And then the piano kind of comes in at the end as well, it's fucking cool. I really dig it. Yeah, i liked it First. I didn't like it. I didn't like the chord progression. It just seemed to like, like you said, tim, acoustic. It's sending, like it was like this should be an acoustic song. 0:47:30 - Speaker 3 Keep it that way. Yeah, yeah. But then it grew on me real quick, which is maybe something I would potentially envision. From a stuck in the studio couple days, you know, you'd get to a point to where everybody's kind of burned out and you pick up the acoustic and somebody says to the piano and you talk about is it INCO, inco and the fucking nickel mining, and I, you know, i looked at it a little bit into that in Manitoba and was like, oh geez, here's, here's a historical. You know, just rabbit hole that I can't go down right now. But it just this, to me, is just one of those, one of those songs that fits in well with this whole album And it's something we haven't really had in the past. So it's kind of happy to hear it. Next one membership Who's who's singing backups Somebody found, is it Gord Is? 0:48:28 - Speaker 1 it Gord over. Usually it's Paul Angla, usually Well. 0:48:32 - Speaker 3 I don't think it's Paul. It might be doubled. If you, if you go in and listen again, check out membership and listen to the backups, because it sounds like a woman to me and it sounds really familiar, like I've heard this voice before And I've looked and looked and looked but I can't find anything. It might be one of the guys, just you know, editing it in post or something, i don't know. But there's, there's some beautiful backup happening. This one, though you know it's wasn't my favorite on the album, i'm not going to put it on the playlist There's kind of a big change after the three minute mark with, like this new chorus. Of course it has my fade out at the end. You know there's there's kind of this bigger start to the song, but it's kind of slow in a way. I don't know. It's maybe about addiction, it's kind of a ballad. you know this, this one, it just felt like it didn't really fit in, didn't really wasn't really sure how it was working and it it made me consider you know I've done this a few times that it made me consider the band and what they were feeling you know they're coming in on 2000 here What they were feeling after 10 years, which is long for any band to retain some amount of success 10 years of playing and predominantly being popular in their home country and not even gaining a huge you know the level they deserved in the neighboring USA. So this this kind of made me think about all those things. I just didn't know if it was like about power abuse of power addiction or longing loss, i don't know. This song was kind of all over the map for me, but ultimately the chorus bugged me and it stuck in my head for a little while. I was like, oh, i need, i need some other, i need some other hip song stuck in my head and that's kind of where, honestly, that's where, like blow a high dough, just comes and takes over my brain. So that's what happened. 0:50:50 - Speaker 4 on membership, I you know I have a ton to say about this song. It's kind of like I put in the same categories Poets. It wasn't my favorite song in the record. I liked it, felt it like it was a very drone rock with a chord progression. It's the way it sounded. I love the harmonies. Tim mentioned the harmonies being drawn along by it. Like that line with the harmonies come in The middle, guitar solo where they kind of tease you with the guitar solo helps build the song kind of cool. But then, yeah, the fade out at the end is just like to me. It felt like they maybe didn't have, they didn't nail everything down with this one. That's all I'll say, you know, but yeah we can move on if you want, let's slide over to fireworks. 0:51:46 - Speaker 7 You like fireworks? Yeah, me neither. The frustrating part Never back in old 72 Without school, just a gun, without a gun or trigger. I don't remember a reason. Set me sight of you. You said I couldn't get a fuck about the party. Never heard something true back before You held my hand. We were on the long way Loosing in my grip on Bobby Moore. Never heard anything wrong before I blushed. When these ever sensations get in your way, no doubt this shit me spurred right now By your shoulder, and that an amazing what you can't accomplish now I'm not together every single moment. That's what we thought. We'd be married. We both do deep with the grip of art, of fish chaos, believing in the country, me and you. Christ has a faith in Christ, the sinner cramming Yeah, we've heard all this before It's winter time. The house is solid to the bones, loosing in our grip on this fake cold war. Is it an amazing and a better accomplish When we don't let no nation get in our way? No doubt this shit me spurred right now By your shoulder, and that an amazing what you can't accomplish now, next to your comrades in the nation of fitness, the program regarding some eternal past time, clopping to the mind in a fit of laughter, showing no patience, no tolerance, no respect By your words, next to the distance, contemplating towering, towering star By your words. And in late, never, till there are no stars anymore By your words. And in, straight in heaven, contemplating towering, towering star, till there are no stars shining up in heaven, till there are no stars anymore. Isn't it an amazing and a better accomplish When we don't let no nation get in our way? No doubt this shit me spurred right now By your brand of error, shining up in heaven, contemplating towering, towering star. I think this one thing never goes away And this ones thing's always supposed to stop. Oh, this funny thing doesn't have to go away, and I'm gonna lie. 0:55:41 - Speaker 4 Oh fuck, How much time you got, then Fucking song, this song, i just have the word. It's this fucking rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. Just so much rush in this song. Really, there's a couple of rush references on this record and this is number one. I would say that is it. Gord Sinclair, yeah, so like and I think he would agree with me, because I don't know that I don't know any bass player in Canada, let alone the entire world, would put them up against Geddy Lee. So I can't like, true, Like. I don't think the bass in this song was supremely rushed, but the chord progression, the structure of the song, the lyrics, isn't it amazing? anything's accomplished Is fucking. It's so fucking dude, it's fucking rush, completely Fucking. It's like they should have just made a record with one song on it and sent it to Rush and been like this is for you guys, we love you guys. And dude, i'm not saying anything remotely like they jocked anything. It's an homage in the sweetest sense. It's fucking beautiful. I fucking listened to the song so many times. There's I don't know if he's playing a Les Paul or a Hamer Rob Baker, but it's got some hollow tone electric guitar. There's a line in there Christ in the Kremlin. I'm fucking. The words in this song are fucking spectacular. I bet it just destroyed. Destroyed. The crowd live Like. I mean if they played this fucking live you'd have to close with this or I don't know what you'd play with this. I mean it's just fuck. What's the other line Next year? comrades in the National Fitness Program caught in some external flex arm hang dropping the mat. Dude the lot. This that the way he speeds up that verse and fits all those fucking words into that, and then he goes back to the normal cadence, like when I say cadence I mean like the tempo, not a modal cadence, but like tempo. He goes back to that. I just bet when they, when they all listened to this track after it was mixed, or they all recorded everything, they all just fucking high-fived and hugged each other and had a big old fucking circle 100% Yeah. Dude, it's a fucking. It's one of my favorite fucking hip songs period. 0:58:23 - Speaker 3 Oh, you know what they. You know what they said after they recorded this. They were like this is going to be an every jukebox across Canada. I mean, it's a jukebox song. I mean, really, this is like play something by the tragically hip. Okay, i'm at the jukebox. Stick in a quarter. Oh, here's fireworks. Everybody loves this song. You know, that's that's. I couldn't agree more, pete. I just felt like this could be put on a seven inch only and out in the world. You know it was one of the first songs in a while where, like, i immediately just started snapping my fingers. It was like, okay, this, this song's, this song's moving. I completely agree with the rush references I love. I so identified with this girl. There was actually a girl who said she didn't give a fuck about hockey. I never heard a girl swear and I've never heard someone say that before. It was like there was some whole other world out there which is hard to fathom at times. I don't follow hockey. I totally identify with this. When I go on Facebook and it's like near the weekend it's mostly fucking NFL comments from people I know in Southern California. It's like, god damn, i wish I had a sports filter on my life because I don't really follow any sports. So the hockey the hockey comment, i was like yes, i, i want to hang out with you, let's go drink beers. You know, i probably follow that. It's whatever I just I just identify with that part, it's. You know this, though, you're right, pete, isn't it amazing you could do anything when the notion isn't in your way, believing in the country of me, and you, ah, you know, it's just, it's, it's, this is, it's more. It's more than an anthem. 1:00:17 - Speaker 4 You know, the crazy is so it's so, Getty Lee, though man. 1:00:21 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. What's? 1:00:24 - Speaker 4 this, it's, it's spirit of the radio. Okay. That's the song thing you have in so many ways. Yeah, i mean, and I don't think any musician in the band would say like they can you know drum? like Neil Pert? I think the guitar is pretty. It's got some solid Alex life and vibes. like you could fucking compare that guitar wise. but like bass and drums, you can't fucking come close to those, like it's just. but sorry, tim, i didn't mean to interrupt you, but it's just a fucking. 1:00:55 - Speaker 3 That's good. Good, it's such a JD. What JD, what? what were your thoughts on the song? Do you have, do you have memories of hearing the song, or anything, or like? 1:01:03 - Speaker 1 I think it's, I think it's a romantic song, Like. I think it's like the firework of like meeting somebody that is just, you know, absolutely the sparkle of your eye, you know, sort of thing. The context, to give you some context, the goal that he's talking about, the goal that everyone remembers, is when Canada beat the Soviets in 1972. And that was, that was during the Cold War. So it was a big deal, that series, Canada playing hockey against Russia. you know a few games here in Canada and a few games in Moscow. It was a big deal, Like for these Canadian hockey players to go to Russia. Like at that time Russia was so mysterious And there was a very famous goal that won the series by Paul Henderson that everyone remembers. It's one of those moments in Canada, the, if you're of the right age or generation I'm not, I'm born in 74. So it's over my head, But if you were there then it's one of those like you know where you were moments. you know what I mean. 1:02:10 - Speaker 3 It's huge huge moment in sports history. 1:02:13 - Speaker 1 So for him to be just blown away. Like you know, loosening my grip on Bobby Orr, like I just picture, the 16 year old who's in love with Bobby Orr has the hockey cards on the wall, you know, he's just tremendous and all of a sudden he just oh, there's girls out there. Oh, and there's this particular girl who doesn't give a fuck about what, like whoa fireworks, you know. 1:02:40 - Speaker 3 Yeah, great song, Great song. This. yeah, I could have had this song, you know, and had a satisfied meal and went to bed. 1:02:49 - Speaker 1 You and your food All right. Go next to vapor trails. 1:02:58 - Speaker 3 So vapor trails, like I started this one and paused and had to come back to it, i didn't keep going like this, this, this, this was one of the breaks. And now for me, where I was like, okay, i'm not, either not in it enough or not focused enough, let's come back to it and didn't hold your attention. He would not not at the get go, but eventually it did. Oh, eventually it did bring me in. It totally was one of those songs that I wasn't so sure about, but over time was like humming it while walking around the house. You know, there's just to me it has some mysticism to it. There's this mysterious not to say it again but backup singer, whoever is in there. I mean there's some really good backup singing happening, but I just love some of the lyrics. There's nothing uglier than a man hitting a stride. 1:04:00 - Speaker 1 What a great lyric, right Dude And just the way he says it as well. There's nothing uglier than a man hitting a stride, yeah. 1:04:09 - Speaker 3 I can't wait to use that some point in life. You know, watching something happen, yeah, chords, use that line, throw away the rudder, float away, like they portrayals. You know, i get this. It's like, it's this feeling of like giving up. You know, at some point we all, everyone, i think everyone has contemplated, you know, life being different or serious change, or giving up, or you know, we've all had these heavy times in our lives and maybe the song kind of hits on that. There's amazing guitar riffing just towards four minute mark. It felt, you know, just to kind of wrap it up. For me it felt like a produced ending. You know, the fade out was like it wasn't just let's wrap the song up, let's just fade it out, it was like let's produce the fade out. So it was a little, i don't know a little more, a little more orchestrated. But yeah, it's, this song is. This song was a banger. I think it was really good for the spot in the album. I think it was like really fitting. 1:05:27 - Speaker 1 Yeah, because we're well into the second side now. Yeah yeah. Second track, second side, if you're playing by those roles, It has a good place, good place in the album. What do you think of APR Trail's Pete? 1:05:39 - Speaker 4 Well, this is the other thing that I thought was it's not. It's not a Rush reference, but I actually think there's a possibility that Rush's 2001 record Vapor 12, vapor Trails was perhaps, maybe, an homage to Tragically Hip. Wow, i don't know, that's my, that's my in my dream world. I don't know if that's really true, but and I saw them on that tour and they were fucking just amazing. Saw them at the Irvine Meadows man. 1:06:18 - Speaker 1 Such a great show. 1:06:19 - Speaker 4 Never saw. 1:06:20 - Speaker 1 Rush. I was supposed to see Rush on a tour in 93 and guess who was opening for them? Who, tragically Hip Jesus Christ. Wow, on Road Apples. Yeah, dude. 1:06:30 - Speaker 4 I don't know what's a bigger fail That or not partying with them. 1:06:34 - Speaker 1 Oh God, it's the, that's the, that's the fail. 1:06:36 - Speaker 3 They're close. Not partying, I think. 1:06:39 - Speaker 4 Well, we, let's put it this way, we, we, we showed to that concert, i think, and they were they, we were at that time. It's strange, real quick, because I know. but during that time, because 2001 was coming out of the Napster years and years, right And into, like I think it was right where the iPods came out, um, so people started buying music online again, sort of. So bands didn't have money to pay for opening bands during that time, so a lot of bands would tour and be like who's opening? And like there's nobody opening. So we assumed that somebody was opening, for Rush happened to me with pavement one time, but that's another story Um, and we walked, we're, we're racing through the parking lot Because we hear a spirit of the radio, but right into Red Bar Chat after that and just fucking made my, made my life. But to the song. Paper Trails. Um, the fucking vocal melody in the opening verse same. I got the same cadence, Tim. I don't know if you mentioned this as Thompson girl. Um, but the song I loved it. I imagine when they sung this song live, that when Gord sings the line you can throw away the rudder. He probably blows out either part of the low end or part of the mid end frequencies in the fucking speakers at this this, this house, his voice is just at that frequency where, if he really punches it like he could, he could break. He could break some fucking windows, because it's, it's just fucking just the way he delivers that shit. Throw away the rudder, um, uh, what else? Yeah, just that line to me was worth buying the fucking record. Pulled the car over. There's nothing uglier. Yeah. Then a man hitting his stride. Yeah, there's a transition from the bridge back to the chord progression. That's super abrupt And it's so cool because there's no transition. It's just like boom, boom, they go right back into the chord progression and it's fucking cool. I'm not, can't think of any band that I've heard do that. And then the last thing is the line, and it's it's. It's maybe Rob Baker, i don't know who's singing the backup, but Mexicans dressed in beige shirts Crazy line, yeah. 1:09:16 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I've never heard that Mexicans dressed in beige shirts. 1:09:19 - Speaker 4 It's. It's like almost whispered. 1:09:25 - Speaker 3 Wow references you know references, folks who spend their life picking the strawberries and raspberries. 1:09:31 - Speaker 1 We, i believe, Yeah, I would guess so. 1:09:37 - Speaker 3 I believe it does So yeah. 1:09:39 - Speaker 4 Are we going to? 1:09:40 - Speaker 1 rules. You got it, dude. 1:09:48 - Speaker 4 I love the song. It was so fucking cool and so chill. This starts out with those huge cymbal crashes in the beginning. This is the second song in the record that references a pedestrian crossing, talks about a crossing guard not doing their job. 1:10:04 - Speaker 1 So yeah, it's really reference of and the second reference of super farmer. Uh-huh Right. 1:10:11 - Speaker 3 In that same in that same Stan's line. Got some agricultural themes happening. Probably the third agricultural theme. 1:10:21 - Speaker 4 Yeah, I don't know I just the phrasing was beautiful. I'm wondering what a bard is. B-a-r-d. 1:10:28 - Speaker 3 There's a couple of references with that. One is it has to do with a Shakespeare reference. 1:10:35 - Speaker 1 That's what I thought, yeah. 1:10:36 - Speaker 3 Yeah, and then the other one is I'm not going to butcher it, the other one has to do with fighting. I have to look it up. 1:10:46 - Speaker 1 Let's just go with Shakespeare. 1:10:48 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it's some Shakespeare reference. 1:10:52 - Speaker 4 And then to the line about the vacuum's got a guarantee. I just that line hooked me in so much because it was so random that I was like really in just pay super close attention to what he said. And the next line that he delivers, which is it could suck a virus, an ancient virus from the sea, is like what the like again put on the hat, put on your jacket, close the briefcase. Fucking. Done your job today. 1:11:23 - Speaker 1 Leave the office, gordon, that's right Punch out or whatever. 1:11:27 - Speaker 4 The whole, that whole stand is fucking amazing. There's a table slide And then oh, by the way, this song, and fuck, there was one other song. God damn this song. and one other song at the record. on the record It's earlier. I want to say it may be something on or say the planet. at the very end of it You hear the word somebody in the studio is cool. Yeah, so it doesn't feel so and there was one other two, one other song on the record that they did, so I was like they did that twice. 1:12:05 - Speaker 1 That's cool. I'm going to need access to your premium sound system. 1:12:10 - Speaker 4 Well, I mean GD, that's. We know this is not stuff we just hand on. It's kind of like you know top secret Clarence, There's a lot involved, A lot of screaming All right, all right, all right. 1:12:22 - Speaker 3 He passed. He's done it. Yes, true, yes, we're adjourning my current, for he's had it. Yeah, i heard the song and I thought Pete loves this song so much And when we come talk about it on the pod it's going to be all Pete. 1:12:43 - Speaker 1 You know how much to say. 1:12:44 - Speaker 3 I thought it was kind of a yonder. I got you know some, some from it, But you know I was like this. The song isn't for me. I thought it was kind of a yonder. I was going to leave it to Pete. 1:12:58 - Speaker 1 We're going to come back in a year because it's going to be a grower for you. I guarantee this song will be a grower for you. 1:13:04 - Speaker 3 If it's not, you guys both have to buy me beers. I can live with that, Yeah, yeah. 1:13:11 - Speaker 1 Okay. Well then let's slide into Sugar and Falls Ohio. 1:13:15 - Speaker 4 Take it Timbo. 1:13:17 - Speaker 3 Yeah, so Sugar and Falls. So this song I thought was basically a huge fuck off to corporate man, to the man. I thought this is like. This song is driving some culture into the fan base. It's probably, you know, was played a lot on the radio. I thought this one you know I could be wrong, but this song to me felt like on the verge of angry a little bit more than usual. I'd maybe really wonder about it live, if this got more raucous, if it got a little bit more I don't know violent feeling. And I think it's because it thematically, which is where I'm going to go, not so much with music on this one, but thematically it Sugar and Falls, in my research. That's the headquarters of Clear Channel, which at the time Clear Channel Corporation was slowly taking over media, especially North America. Yeah, so that's a lot of the references to Grand Falls. You know where the unknown won't even go. Because at this point I mean that line to me says if you're an artist and you're trying to make it like, avoid your Grand Falls, avoid Clear Channel, you know, be careful with what radio you're sending your tapes to your CDs to like this. This is that song that is kind of the band's shout to the world of, you know, corporate media is taking over the airwaves, you know, be aware So that that to me the song has like a mission. It felt like the first time I listened to it. When I got to you know, three quarters, two thirds of the way through, i thought is this song like over five minutes? you know it felt long, but it didn't feel long in a bad way, like it felt like a good, just a really well written song. Like I was kind of digging through Grand Falls, it felt like a five minute song, but it's not a five minute song. I didn't look up live versions of it but I definitely want to find something. 1:15:47 - Speaker 1 Yeah, get the answers to your questions. I can't, unfortunately, answer because I saw them on that tour and I don't remember if they played it, but I can't. 1:15:57 - Speaker 3 It was somewhat rare. I feel like it was probably going to be a rare rarely. 1:16:01 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it would be one that would be, you know, gosh. Well, let me just quickly look up how many times they played it. 1:16:09 - Speaker 3 I mean for people that don't know, Clear Channel took over corporate. I mean took over FM radio. Over time, like so many stations became Clear Channel stations and became programmed. And I remember hearing the transition because, as a big radio listener, being bored in 71, you know, i listened to radio for like 20 years, 15 at least, 20 years and they just completely took over And I remember hearing DJs demeanor changing from independent radio station to now being put into this box And I feel like that's what the band is trying to talk about in this song And I think it's their fuck you to this corporate system of being in a band and trying to make it and just to inspire people to be independently minded. 1:17:08 - Speaker 4 Yeah, it's funny you mentioned Clear Channel only because I want to talk about the song, because I feel a little bit different about the song in some ways than you do, tim, and it's funny, like Tim, i didn't do fucking a pubic here. The research you did for this fucking song. I had to look up where Chagrin Falls was but, and I dug it. But yeah, that's when there used to be a great station in classic rock station in LA called Arrow 93. And they went over to that Jack. You know that Jack format Jack FM, which is just, it's just a guy who like record something and it's like a cheesy line and he

Ever find yourself reminiscing about the good old days when tunes from The Tragically Hip filled the airwaves? My pals, Tim and Pete, and I sure did, as we took a deep dive into their 6th studio album, Phantom Power. We discovered that our own past experiences and relationships managed to shape our views on this collection of radio hits, which seemed like a pivotal moment for the band. We weren't just content with superficially jamming out to the music. We dissected the unique sound and lyrical themes, compared them to previous Hip releases, and found ourselves swapping stories from past concerts. One standout memory was Tim being recognized by lead vocalist Gord Downie backstage. We also discussed the historical context of the album, like how its recording coincided with a major ice storm and a surprise tour that benefited a children's cancer camp. Stick around as we analyze some standout tunes like 'Poets' and its references to Gwen Jacobs' fight for women's equality. We also shared our thoughts on 'Fireworks' and how it reminded us of Canada's victory in the hockey series against Russia in 1972. So, whether you're a die-hard Hip fan or just love a good music chat, this episode is for you!TranscriptSpeaker 1 It's June of 1998 and I'm done with York University. To celebrate, my friends and I embarked on a camping trip to the Pinary Provincial Park just down the road from Grand Bend. It was just outside the liquor store in town that I heard a finished version of Pullets for the first time. Gord had long been one of my favorite Pullets, so to me this song resonated in a way that I can't quite describe. It was a feeling of euphoria and relief. This new record was going to be just fine, i thought to myself. Little did I know that several tracks on this record would stand the test of time and join the pantheon of great hip songs I still enjoy to this day, from the meandering escape is at hand to the traveling man, to the exquisite Bob Cajun and the downright delicious Emperor Penguin. Phantom power was right in the pocket, coming off of the exceptional trouble at the henhouse. As I got inside the truck to head back to the campsite I turned the volume up and just let Pullets sink into my brain. This was living. Today. We're going to hear from our friends Pete and Tim to check out what they think of Phantom power. Will it stack up? Find out today. On Getting Hip to the Hip. 0:01:41 - Speaker 2 Long sliced brewery presents Getting Hip to the Hip Hey it's JD here. 0:01:58 - Speaker 1 Welcome back to Getting Hip to the Hip. This week we are talking about Phantom Power, the sixth studio record by Seminole Canadian rock band, the Tragically Hip. I'm joined this week, as always, by my pals Tim and Pete Fellas. how are you doing? 0:02:19 - Speaker 3 Hey guys, hey guys, hey guys, glad to be here. Good to see you, i'm ecstatic to be here. 0:02:26 - Speaker 4 I'm ecstatic to be here right now. 0:02:27 - Speaker 1 Oh, I love it. 0:02:28 - Speaker 4 I love the energy This is happier than a pig and shit. 0:02:31 - Speaker 1 Oh boy, oh boy, that's pretty happy. I've seen some, some porcine creatures rolling in fecal matter and they sure love it. Okay, so if you are wanting to experience The Tragically Hip's music for the first time, tim and Pete are your avatars this week because they got to experience the record Phantom Power, which again is the sixth record produced by Steve Berlin, first record on Universal. But I guess I should tell you guys both. I guess I should say this to you both as honorary Canadians. Now, happy Canada Day. It's almost the 4th of July. It's July 3rd today, but it's July 4th tomorrow for you, but July 1st for us is Canada Day. So happy Canada Day, folks. 0:03:20 - Speaker 4 Wow, Yeah, Very close to the other 4th of July, which is America's Independence Day. In the UK they call that Thanksgiving. No, No, I had a. I took a flight one time on some shitty airline and the pilot was British and it was on the 4th of July and he was like so I just want to say you know, that's my shitty British accent Happy 4th of July was we call it. We're on from Thanksgiving. Enjoy Whatever. 0:03:57 - Speaker 1 That's great. Oh, anytime you can burn an American a little bit, it's. you know there's some fun. There's some fun there because you guys are so goddamn good at this shit, you know Anyway let's get into the record as a whole. Before we go into the song by song segment, let's just talk about this record, produced, like I said, by Steve Berlin. Five singles come from this record. All music rates at a three out of five Three. So there's that. What did you guys think? I want to know where you listen to it, how you listen to it and what your initial thoughts were, and you know, maybe, what they percolated up to. What do you say there, tim? 0:04:45 - Speaker 3 Well, there's a pause. I thought it was a three star album, kind of like all music I felt wasn't really sure. it felt a little bit deluded in a way. to me It felt a little bit, a little bit more generic from what I've heard in the past. But it also felt kind of expected for the whole catalog of albums this band has produced and the timeline going into the late 90s. You know this album felt like full of radio hits but at the same time I was missing a little bit of that raw kind of hip feeling. You know, i was wondering like, should I be okay with this album just being kind of fine? This was the turning point for me. I was really not sure. When I read kind of some reviews about it, i think there was some sentiment, some shared sentiment, and also some people were like it's my favorite album and some hip fans said it's their least favorite album. So this one's kind of a gray area for me. 0:06:00 - Speaker 1 It's funny. Well, I'll get into my, you know, sort of backgrounder on this for you guys after we hear from Pete. Pete, what did you think? 0:06:09 - Speaker 4 I hear you on the gray area, because I could totally see that. I could totally see how some hip fans are like this is the best album they did. Or this is not my favorite album. For me I listen to it everywhere. I listen to it in my office, so for my computer, with some some decent cans, i took it out running a lot. Probably. I think maybe the first time I listened to it was that took it in the car. It sounded great. The thing I found like I would say 3.5 for me, tim, instead of a 3. But you know I feel you on that My initial thoughts were that a lot of rawness of the hip was gone from this. In the first couple of listens it sounded very watered down. It was like somebody pulled Gord Downey aside and said Hey man, can we just like, kind of like the dude, can you, can, you fucking can you take it easy, man, you know, just like. Told him to just like chill out a little bit, and I don't know. The more I listen to it though, the more I dug into it and see how much work maybe not production, but just from the band themselves went into this record maybe changed my tune a lot Like I dig it. And Phantom Power, that was the coolest thing in the 90s, man Like because sometimes you didn't know what it was. If you never heard of Phantom Power before, it has a fucking cool name. If you had a guy that had like a condenser mic or something with Phantom Power, you're like dude, yeah, he's got a mic, that's got a Phantom Power. It was just like fucking. You were 17 and you heard that it was fucking cool. 0:08:00 - Speaker 3 Yeah, you know, i went and looked at a number of albums sold by a bunch of different bands, including the hip, and I was trying to kind of have this try to find this correlation of how many albums sold from the band start to like 10 years later, or 10 albums later, something like that. And I compared the hip with a bunch of bands And it's, it's. It's really all apples, oranges, of course, but when you look at how many albums they've sold and how they, you know, started off selling a ton and then just kind of went down to this million album mark. And then when I heard this album and I like UP, i listened to it all over the place. I listened to it on the plane I traveled, listened to it in the car, listened to it at home with the cans on. I mean I listened to it in more places than past listens because I was really trying to give it a go. I mean, it was the first time, upon first listened, that there were a couple songs where I was like okay, get it, i'm going to go to the next one, like I had not fast forwarded songs, you had her skipped ahead. So this, yeah, but but one of those songs that I skipped ahead on, sorry hip fans. You know I came back to and it's might be one of my most favorite on the album, so this this one like yeah, this one, this one to me like didn't grab me right away. Maybe it will more over time, maybe it's one of those types of albums, but well, i'll tell you what this record has. 0:09:36 - Speaker 1 An interesting, an interesting story, i think, and it it's my own headcanon This is. This is not like actual fact by any stretch, but in my opinion, trouble at the Henhouse, which is one of my absolute favorite records by the Tragically Hip or or or any other band, is, was maligned Like it, it, it, it, it both it and day for night didn't perform as well as fully, completely, and fully completely was very, if you recall, it was very polished, it was very produced. You know they went to London to record it. It was like a big deal. And then, following that, the next two records, they were sort of self-produced, with Mark Vreakin and Mark Howard on day for night and just Vreakin on fully, on Trouble at the Henhouse, and those records are sparse and they are. The core energy is, is there, it's, it's. It's like boiling hot magma, you know, and they're and they're forming these songs that are just age old now and and just wonderful, and then phantom power comes out and phantom power goes back to the like. To me it's sort of back to the back, to the basics. It's like back to really structured songs, really produced, and, like I always said, that this record was the baby of day for night and fully and completely, fully, completely, rather not fully and completely fully. It's sort of the baby of those two records. It's got the, it's got the production values, but it's still got songs. So I'll challenge you guys on that, because I think this record has songs and I think it has songs for days. You know what? 0:11:40 - Speaker 4 you are JD, let me tell you who you are. So when I was like 19 or 18, working with the movie theater, i dated this girl that that worked at the calendar place across the way And I just kind of went out with her because I was like really stoked. She gave me your number But I really wasn't that into her and all my friends were like, dude, she's really hot man, she's really amazing, and I just didn't see it. And so then like I stopped going out with her. We only went out a couple of times and that was that. And then I saw her again. I was like, damn, i really screwed that one up And that's kind of felt with this record, but I didn't want to like make that same mistake again. So like I, i'm sticking with it. I'm sticking with this being a solid album. Yeah, you know, yeah Masked it for, you know, a third and fourth date. 0:12:26 - Speaker 1 Yeah, i think, and I think three out of five stars is fair Like it's not it's not one of my. it's not my favorite record, but it's a lot of hit pants favorite record It's a lot Yeah, yeah. 0:12:39 - Speaker 3 That's that's what I found in my research. The covers are awesome. The covers are great. 0:12:43 - Speaker 1 They have that They actually have that panel in in their studio and bath, which is really cool. Yeah, so that's, you know this is. I want to say this is the second record they recorded at their studio. So they didn't go anywhere, you know, adventurous or anything like that, but they were at home. And what happened in 1998, i don't know if it made news anywhere else but Quebec and Ontario there was a major ice storm, yeah, major ice storm, and in Ontario it, like it absolutely shut down the city of Toronto. It shut down, you know, major thoroughfares. It was like devastating this ice storm. And we'll get into that a little bit more as we talk about the songs. But you know, they bring Berlin in and they're sort of trapped in the studio. You know like during during this, so really fascinating I think. 0:13:43 - Speaker 3 But yeah, it's a go ahead. Did you see this tour? Did you see them play on this tour? You want to hear a story Now? 0:13:52 - Speaker 1 people who listen to the movie and completely heard this. But the hip announced five secret shows that they were going to do, and all proceeds from these shows were going to go to a charity I forget which charity now at the oh, it was Camp Trillium. Camp Trillium, which is a camp for children with cancer, children that have cancer, and there's a location of that is near where I grew up And I'll show you when we, when you're in town for the finale. My friend's parents were on the committee for the cancer camp in our community, and so my friend Heather had intel and she she knew that they were going to go on sale at this time in this place in Hamilton, which is about an hour outside of Toronto, when traffic's good, and so we ended up getting third row center seats Wow, in this small theater in Hamilton, like 2000 people, and they blew the roof off the place. And a band called oh my goodness. They sang, come for a ride. Open for them, and they were tremendous as well. I forget the bands right now who open for them, but if you know it, send me an email. Jd at getting hip to the hipcom. So we're third row center. We watched the show, But the kicker here is is that Heather has got gifts to give the band And it's been arranged with the stage manager that we're going to go backstage afterwards to give. She's going to go backstage afterwards to give these gifts And she ended up inviting me along And so we got to go backstage and I introduced her to the tragic lab. So this was like this was like full circle for the two of us And it was just a wonderful experience. We went backstage after the show and they were all there and Gord had a. Gord Downey had a soccer ball And he was doing that thing where you flip it out, catch it and roll it back in your arms. Flip it out, catch it, roll it back in your arms And he just kept doing that And I remember at one point I must have looked silly or something, because somebody said and maybe it was Gord Downey said is everything all right? And I said, oh, everything is fucking perfect. I could go outside and get hit by a bus right now And it just wouldn't matter. And Gord Downey looked at me and he goes Oh, don't do that, jane. He called me Jane, only my mom calls me Jane. Like it was so cool It was cool. 0:16:37 - Speaker 4 How did I not know the story? How did I not know that you had interactions with Jesus? 0:16:44 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, how was this? 0:16:45 - Speaker 4 coming up in episode. What fucking episode are we on. 0:16:48 - Speaker 1 Well, it was Tim asked me the question, yeah. 0:16:50 - Speaker 3 I don't know. We're like 15 minutes in. I think we could just call it. That was good enough. 0:16:55 - Speaker 1 Well, here's the kicker. Here's the kicker. I don't think I told this part on fully and completely, but the kicker is I had been dating a girl all through university and I broke up with her the summer of 98 and sewed my wild oats And this was all toward the end of the summer of 98. And she was in Hamilton to meet me after the show. So I'm backstage with the hip and they go Okay, well, we're going to go to the after party now in the next room over, because this was in the green room or whatever And we're going to go in the after party room and drink some beers. Do you guys want to join us? And I had to say no. I had to say no because my girlfriend was waiting outside for me. Now, in hindsight, what a boner move I made, because I wanted to get back together with her. Totally. It only lasted another two years after that, like I then absolutely blew up, but it was those. Those final two years were awful anyway, like they just weren't, you know, like both of us would agree to that now I'm sure the university years were wonderful, they were, they were great, but those those two years after our break up we're not so good And I blew a chance to go party with the hip. 0:18:15 - Speaker 3 You had a Davis Manning moment. 0:18:18 - Speaker 1 Yes, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 0:18:22 - Speaker 3 He chose the girl over your fandom. 0:18:25 - Speaker 1 The hip lived between us. 0:18:27 - Speaker 3 They totally lived between you. They might still sorry, sorry, jess. 0:18:38 - Speaker 1 Well, folks, should we go song by song? 0:18:41 - Speaker 3 Yeah, let's do it, let's do it. 0:18:44 - Speaker 4 So I really liked this song. I really liked poets. This is probably the song I would say I have the least to say about. I really like the verse phrasing. I think it's probably the best part of this song, the way he phrases the verses. There's a part where the lines of a verse he kind of like carries into the next measure. It's really weird, like, like, like the mind, you think, okay, you sing the verse, then it's the next measure, but like he sings that verse over there Because it's when you look at it it's a complete line. I can't remember the line specifically, but it was. It was cool man. It's a hard thing to pull off man, but like that guy just does. It was so much, so much finesse. I liked the layered guitars in it, yeah. But I think, going back to what we're saying sort of at the beginning of the top of the show, it was, this song didn't punch me in the face Like right when I, right when I started listening, i dug it. I it was a soft open, it was a soft open. 0:19:59 - Speaker 1 All right, how'd you feel, tim? 0:20:01 - Speaker 3 I felt it was a harder open. I thought it was it. You know this. Like we've talked about before the cadence of songs and track orders. You know the first one I expect to really get me, bring me in, and this one did it. I thought it was pretty good. There's a fun kind of change over into the chorus It again I spoke about this a little bit before, but the kind of remind me of REM in REM's, like first half of the 90's albums, like they come on with like a punch of a song and then, like the cadence of the album kind of goes soft and then gets whoa, got a little dirty there, gets a little bit harder as time evolves. But yeah, this I thought this was a good start off. The themes you know I looked into a little bit of the song's meaning regarding lyrics and you know just talk about agriculture and super farms and like I don't know, ultimately fresh vegetables versus buying frozen and what that means. And this, this is the song that references Gwen Jacobs. Right, you know the story about her JD, and she was this woman who walked into town I think in Ontario topless and it created this whole. I don't have to look into this more, but I'm pretty sure this was the song about the Gwen Jacobs case. So Gwen was a woman who walked through town topless and was arrested and started this whole kind of woman's lib. You know movement with. You know making it okay to cut your lawn without a shirt on, just like the men do. That's kind of where the line in here from Gord comes from. It's a let's see. 0:22:02 - Speaker 1 Oh, that's great Lawn caught by breasted women. 0:22:04 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it's kind of this comment on pushing for women's equality and gender rights. So I thought that was fucking cool And that, to me also, is like really appropriate for the 90s or late 90s, you know it was. we were kind of circling back to, of course, some things we've had in North America before and prior decades. So I thought this song was cool. Again, it really reminded me of REM. I kind of went back and started looking at some of REM's albums and I wish, again, i wish I could know what the band listened to when they were traveling Me too. You know what they were sharing, what albums they were digging. you know if any of them were like Oh my God, did you hear REM's new one? We're going to put it in the the the buses stereo or whatever. Like I wish I could know what was influencing them, because I'm hearing, i'm hearing some some themes for sure. 0:22:57 - Speaker 1 Okay, earlier I was telling you about the ice storm. The next track, something on, was recorded and they literally were trapped in the studio. They were, you know, they couldn't leave the bath house, they couldn't leave the studio in bath. So they did what they do best They wrote a song and there's some lyrical content in there about the ice storm even And I think it's really wonderful lyricism. What did you guys think of something on? 0:23:33 - Speaker 3 I felt like, okay, i read about it, i read about this and I read about the ice storm and you know sounded awful. And for I hate to say this, but to go get stuck in a studio, for me that'd be like the time to really fuck things up, like really experiment. You know, you know, just hopefully somebody shows up with a huge bag of weed and somebody shows up with a bunch of acid and somebody shows up with a shit ton of beer and like this is when you like really go to town to experiment and what do we got out of it? We got like kind of a radio hit. So it was a little surprise to kind of hear the whole story and it just made me realize that maybe for this era, the guys were really I mean, they were at a point to where they could bust out a really good album, you know, and what, for me, that really good album is? like you go to a restaurant and it's like yo, that was a good meal. You know, everything was like satisfactory. 0:24:37 - Speaker 1 Well, yeah, it's a blooming onion man. 0:24:38 - Speaker 3 It's a blooming onion, Yeah, but to get stuck in a studio and ice storm, it's like I personally would want to just start going places. I haven't been before with my band, but you know this one's interesting take. Yeah, this one felt. This one felt a little radio felt a little you too, dave Matthews like splash of John Cougar melon camp or something like I don't know. Man, it felt, i know. I know, i know, i know. 0:25:10 - Speaker 1 And I was a big melon camp guy at one point. 0:25:13 - Speaker 4 But Dave, Matthews are regular. 0:25:16 - Speaker 1 Cougar and regular. 0:25:18 - Speaker 3 Yeah, like I couldn't get overly excited about this one. Well, again. 0:25:26 - Speaker 1 I think you were waiting for the follow up from the follow up to trouble at the house, and this isn't the follow up that you're expecting on a trajectory perspective. You know no no, i agree. 0:25:44 - Speaker 4 It's funny. You talk about getting trapped in the studio, like I mean, i don't know if I'd go like full steely Dan when they recorded the Albuquerque show, where, like you know, there maybe was not that much cocaine around, but I still agree with him, i would. I'd get really spacey, and I think they do it on a couple songs that we'll get into, but first time I heard this song got some heavy Jim Blossom's feels. Yeah yeah, Yes that's the first thing that hit me and I couldn't think of any of the band that it was like a buddy of mine used to play the band that they open for them a ton, and I was like the first band that came to mind like this Oh, and it was really poppy. And okay, my notes. Once you get past the repeated cheesiness of the chord progression and the vocal melody, it's not a bad song. 0:26:40 - Speaker 1 Oh dammit, with faint praise here. No, no, no, it's not a bad song. 0:26:44 - Speaker 4 I think it's a good song, but you know it's a good song. If, like you, take this song and go, is this a good song? Anybody will say it's a good song, but like you, said to me compared to the follow up of what you really wanted after trouble. Then else, and this was a song where I feel like Gord sounded a bit like he was put in the cage Like whoever was a universal when this record was getting recorded, put baby in the corner. And this is a song where really I feel like you know he's, he wants to be himself, but somebody's like, hey, man, just could you like you don't have to do it all the songs, but like at least on this one could you just, fucking, you know, tone it down a little bit. And I was just like, ah, where's my fucking, where's my lead singer. 0:27:33 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I totally agree, Because you know it's still a good song, because it's still all the guys and it still has themes, because it's Gord, you know you're still going to get one liners that are amazing. I feel like probably no matter what in any hip song there's going to be some standout lyric to me, some standout part like to the core fan. That's. That's really what I'm imagining. The line that stood out in this one for me was your imaginations having puppies, I mean yeah, yeah. I've had so many letters of puppies, you guys. It's like I'm just, i've got puppies all over the place. It's like. 0:28:11 - Speaker 4 I was a cool. I really like that one. Yeah, like that, like that video for new recruits or something. 0:28:17 - Speaker 3 Yeah, so I like identified in it. You know, at that personal level, which I think they're able to do just about on any song which is fucking amazing for a band to do, because I could probably name 10 bands right now. What that does not happen to me, yeah, so you know. So, in that regard, like hip fans, you know I'm, i'm I'm not really trying not to be the bad guy here, but we this, this, this just made this song, just made me keep going So into save the planet. I mean, i got to this one, arrived at this one, and I was like, is this the band's fucking Earth Day song? or stretch their reach to get on the farm aid bill, like what is going on here? I felt like I don't know, there's a flute in there. Who's playing the flute? 0:29:09 - Speaker 1 Who plays the flute? You know, i don't. I don't have the liner notes handy And on the wiki page it is remarkably barren in terms of additional players. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't have them, so I need people to write in. 0:29:25 - Speaker 3 If people know, let us know, because there's some flute in there And it made me wonder like what else? 0:29:31 - Speaker 1 there's keys all over this record. 0:29:33 - Speaker 3 Yeah, what else have I been missing in the background that maybe other people are participating in? But I felt, like you know this song, in the placement we were, we were filling, we were filling in the gaps on the menu And you're like, no, I had a burger yesterday. No, I'm not in the mood for that. Oh, I could really use some lasagna. Here we go. That's that's how Save the Planet felt, felt very time appropriate. This is, like you know, the millennial song. 0:30:02 - Speaker 1 Okay. 0:30:03 - Speaker 4 All right. So if anybody's got a line on the flute player, email Tim getting hip to the hip, talk there you go. Right, i copy Pete at getting hip Yeah. Save the Planet. I thought it was a banger. I really dug it. I at first I saw that too, but then I kind of look past the name of it And just look at the song itself. There's a. There's two references in this album to Crossing the Street, to pedestrian crossings. Yes, i'll point out the other one. This is the first one Fucking solo bangs in this. I thought the flute at the end was cool because it was so random. 0:30:47 - Speaker 3 I was like well, what the fuck is that? Yeah? 0:30:50 - Speaker 4 Same. 0:30:52 - Speaker 1 There's. You just can't imagine listening to road apples and having a flute right Like. It's just not part of this band. You know like and and and it works It works well, no, right? 0:31:05 - Speaker 4 Yeah, you know, if they went into that I'd be like, well, what the fuck's going on? 0:31:10 - Speaker 3 But I'll just quickly, quickly add that I'm okay with the flute. Like sometimes, the flute really is awesome. Oh, i think it's great. So you know, like some people like hear the flute and they're like oh why You know, but it works. 0:31:24 - Speaker 4 No, i dug it And this is again. This is not the first song, or not the only song in this record where I got some heavy Alanis vibes. The phrasing on if the bathwater is clear and my ears underwater, it's a tolerant hum from the core. Carry the water Like that the way he phrases that shit, it's just. I don't know if I see because it's a Canadian band, if I see everything through the lens of like Canadian pop artists. But like it's just the vibe I got from this and it's a great tune to get out and move your feet to get running. It's a fucking cool song to run. 0:32:09 - Speaker 3 All right, i'll put it on my point first I hear your Alanis vibes marry and up with my Michael Stipe vibes. I think those are in sync for sure, for sure. 0:32:20 - Speaker 1 I think there's a nice correlation between the hip and REM, like I think you're right, like they both have that enigmatic front man, you know, who is really literate and really interesting in the way they sort of phrase things and put things together. 0:32:39 - Speaker 4 They both went bold too, halfway through the careers, that's right, that's a fair point. 0:32:45 - Speaker 1 Fair point, fair point, all right, we're getting in the car right now and we are cruising northeast of here and we're going to Bob Cajun. I left your house this morning. 0:33:40 - Speaker 7 It was quarter after nine. I left your house this morning. I left your house this morning. I drove back to town this morning This morning with working on my mind, i thought I'd maybe try to leave an ear behind. I went back to bed this morning and it's time pulling down the blind. Yeah, the sky was dull, it was high but never come. And morning went down at a time that night in Toronto And I was jacking boardboards, riding on horseback and keeping order restored. Tell the men they couldn't hide. Step to the mic and sign and their voices rang with the area of time. To your house this morning. It was quarter after nine. In the middle of that riot I couldn't get you off of my mind. To your house this morning. It was just a little hour tonight Cause it was in my page on the rossard and constellation, but they themselves won't starve at time. To your house this morning It's a little after nine Cause it was in my page on the rossard and constellation, but they themselves won't starve at time. 0:37:32 - Speaker 5 Tell the men they couldn't hide, they didn't choose your bones and bones. They're all south of the wind and down the lawn to the lake For as long as it takes. 0:38:05 - Speaker 7 I don't want to be a hill of the birds last hour. I don't want the last words out of my mouth to be stained Out of my way. 0:38:16 - Speaker 4 Okay, I fucking love this tune. I got some heavy and Tim, yes or yes. If I hear no, I'm just I'm off this podcast Got some really strong G love special sauce vibes from this. Yes, Just the way they owe up. Am I my GD? 0:38:42 - Speaker 1 I don't know, i think I think I'm very familiar. 0:38:46 - Speaker 3 I did not go there, but I will Okay. 0:38:51 - Speaker 4 Right, i mean the. there's a oh dude that it could have been Willie, could have been the wine. I heard that song. The first time I heard that song I was. I took it out for a run and I came home and I like I listened to it again because I just thought it was such a good fucking song, because it's a weed. reference to may not necessarily be about them listening to Willie Nelson. It's like they were smoking weed or they were drinking wine, absolutely Yeah. The opening, like spacey guitar licks The dobro which I think he's playing. there's a dobro in there that he's playing which kind of gets sort of like a banjo slash guitar vibe. Oh God, just. 0:39:40 - Speaker 1 I feel like that lyric that you just quoted, though, could have been the Willie Nelson, could have been the wine. That's like one, like when he wrote that he should have just put the book down, put on a fedora, long overcoat, grabbed his briefcase, just went home for the day, that's. That's the days. That's the day at the office, that's a fucking. Exactly. 0:40:00 - Speaker 4 That's just a great lyric Exactly dude, no, 100%, it's so good. I was like you know. You know, a line is a good line when you hear it and it's so good you think you've heard it before. Meaning like I'm like right, i mean because it just sounds like it belongs on this in the history of life, Like like someone has, like if someone hadn't said it, they sure as shit should have said it. Does that make sense? Yeah, you know, it sounds like it's just. It's a great fucking line. I thought I maybe quit that line. It's just. It's really the part of this song where Gord starts coming out of the cage. On this record, i feel like that was the moment Somebody gave, somebody unlocked the door of the cage and he's starting to come out, and then the song ends on a random minor chord, which is so weird, it's such a happy, spacey song that ends on this minor chord. 0:41:09 - Speaker 3 I loved that. I loved that about it. So for me this one it felt a little Out of the gates. I need to listen to the beginning of it to see your G-Love reference. But out of the gates. It felt to me a little bit country and a little bit like are we reaching again for some crossover fans Along? the southern belt of the US. Like where are we? What's happening here? You know there's some slide guitar, but is it a song about lost love? You know looking up at the stars waiting for a reveal. You know there's synth work in here again, so there's some sort of keyboard happening, which is fucking cool. And to me, the first lesson I had all those kind of questions going through my head And then I thought at one moment like this is actually a fucking beautiful song. Like it's a little bit of an odd man out on the album, but it's actually a beautiful song. There's this long ending with no singing. It's just mysterious. Like you said, pete, the last five seconds or so, or this just bizarre tune out. It's like I found one quote when Gord was asked about this song. He said this was an interview in 2004,. He said this one asks the question evil in the open or evil just below the surface? That was his comment about this song. So it's like this song to me was super mysterious Yeah, super mysterious song which I fucking love, like I don't need literal storytelling every single song you know. Social themes, i don't know all these different things, i don't need that. Every single song I love you know kind of the knuckleball that comes in. You're like whoa okay, this is reeling me back in to the album in a good way, a way that I'm looking for, you know, i'm hoping for, but still, again, this one felt a little bit odd, man, just the way it fits into the album. They've done this before. They've gotten. 0:43:15 - Speaker 4 They lose green man. 0:43:16 - Speaker 3 Yeah, they've gone on this path of like okay, this one, now we're going to turn off the highway and head down this two-lane road and we're going to stop at this farm and we're going to have an afternoon barbecue with this family, and you know, i don't know, like it's just this one's off the highway. 0:43:35 - Speaker 1 Cool. What do you guys think of the bridge? It makes my arm hair stand up That night in Toronto with the checkerboard floors. There's a bar in Toronto that's famous legendary in fact called the Horseshoe and that references the Horseshoe, the checkerboard floors. Oh shit, that's one of the first big gigs they played in Toronto. 0:43:55 - Speaker 4 Can I get taken to that bar when I come visit Toronto? 0:43:57 - Speaker 1 Absolutely. Let's do it. Sure shit hopes so man. 0:44:00 - Speaker 4 That would be cool. This song is actually the most listened to hip song on Spotify. 0:44:07 - Speaker 1 Oh, wow Yeah. 0:44:09 - Speaker 3 Surpasses. I read something about that as well. 0:44:13 - Speaker 4 What was the one that it surpassed? 0:44:16 - Speaker 1 I can't remember Anyway yeah Well, so it's a hit all around Pop Cage. 0:44:21 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it was a fucking interesting song, right? This is. 0:44:25 - Speaker 1 So we shift gears now in a well, not in a huge way, because this is sort of low tempo or slower tempo. We go to Thompson Girl and you're both hesitating to start Thompson Girl. 0:44:41 - Speaker 4 Go ahead Tim. 0:44:42 - Speaker 3 Yeah, well, you know what's the story about here. I don't know. It's the story potentially about where is it here, This town in Manitoba, thompson, yeah, or it's. You know it's potentially about a nickel mining company up there. You know it's got this kind of sweet, forlorn grunt work somewhere between dream and duty, poking through with all them shoots of beauty. I mean, what is that about? You know, this is kind of a cute, in a way stripped down acoustic song. There's some banjo in there. You know, i've kind of been waiting for, I had been waiting for this type of stripped down, simpler song that you know it's kind of this forlorn, sad song to me at the same time. 0:45:42 - Speaker 1 Probably Pete. 0:45:44 - Speaker 4 I loved it. I thought it was cool. I think I don't know if it's consistent with you and I, tim, but like I really try not to look too deep into the lyrics because oftentimes I'm disappointed, that's why I don't do it. I know you do it a lot more than I do I totally do. 0:46:03 - Speaker 3 I mean it's because of Gord, like Gord Gord. for me, gord merits it. 0:46:09 - Speaker 4 I get intrigued though, but like dude so does. I mentioned Celie Daner earlier. Like Donald Fagan's lyrics are notoriously cool as fuck. But have you ever asked that guy like what he you know what's, what's the meaning of? you know Dr Woo or whatever, like he'll be, like I don't know man, we're on so much cocaine. Back in the day I was just getting shipped to prime or whatever you know like, and I know that's not really the case here. But that line, the way he goes up so high with grunt work, i can't. I'm not even gonna fucking try lest I fucking destroy your listener base JD by singing that line. But when he goes grunt work time between dream and duty the melody is so fucking good It's then there's a part. Um, i don't know if it's like, i don't know, i wouldn't call it the bridge, but it is a bit of a some sort of key change to the regular chord progression. When he goes really high and then the mandolin starts to come in fucking dug that. And then the piano kind of comes in at the end as well, it's fucking cool. I really dig it. Yeah, i liked it First. I didn't like it. I didn't like the chord progression. It just seemed to like, like you said, tim, acoustic. It's sending, like it was like this should be an acoustic song. 0:47:30 - Speaker 3 Keep it that way. Yeah, yeah. But then it grew on me real quick, which is maybe something I would potentially envision. From a stuck in the studio couple days, you know, you'd get to a point to where everybody's kind of burned out and you pick up the acoustic and somebody says to the piano and you talk about is it INCO, inco and the fucking nickel mining, and I, you know, i looked at it a little bit into that in Manitoba and was like, oh geez, here's, here's a historical. You know, just rabbit hole that I can't go down right now. But it just this, to me, is just one of those, one of those songs that fits in well with this whole album And it's something we haven't really had in the past. So it's kind of happy to hear it. Next one membership Who's who's singing backups Somebody found, is it Gord Is? 0:48:28 - Speaker 1 it Gord over. Usually it's Paul Angla, usually Well. 0:48:32 - Speaker 3 I don't think it's Paul. It might be doubled. If you, if you go in and listen again, check out membership and listen to the backups, because it sounds like a woman to me and it sounds really familiar, like I've heard this voice before And I've looked and looked and looked but I can't find anything. It might be one of the guys, just you know, editing it in post or something, i don't know. But there's, there's some beautiful backup happening. This one, though you know it's wasn't my favorite on the album, i'm not going to put it on the playlist There's kind of a big change after the three minute mark with, like this new chorus. Of course it has my fade out at the end. You know there's there's kind of this bigger start to the song, but it's kind of slow in a way. I don't know. It's maybe about addiction, it's kind of a ballad. you know this, this one, it just felt like it didn't really fit in, didn't really wasn't really sure how it was working and it it made me consider you know I've done this a few times that it made me consider the band and what they were feeling you know they're coming in on 2000 here What they were feeling after 10 years, which is long for any band to retain some amount of success 10 years of playing and predominantly being popular in their home country and not even gaining a huge you know the level they deserved in the neighboring USA. So this this kind of made me think about all those things. I just didn't know if it was like about power abuse of power addiction or longing loss, i don't know. This song was kind of all over the map for me, but ultimately the chorus bugged me and it stuck in my head for a little while. I was like, oh, i need, i need some other, i need some other hip song stuck in my head and that's kind of where, honestly, that's where, like blow a high dough, just comes and takes over my brain. So that's what happened. 0:50:50 - Speaker 4 on membership, I you know I have a ton to say about this song. It's kind of like I put in the same categories Poets. It wasn't my favorite song in the record. I liked it, felt it like it was a very drone rock with a chord progression. It's the way it sounded. I love the harmonies. Tim mentioned the harmonies being drawn along by it. Like that line with the harmonies come in The middle, guitar solo where they kind of tease you with the guitar solo helps build the song kind of cool. But then, yeah, the fade out at the end is just like to me. It felt like they maybe didn't have, they didn't nail everything down with this one. That's all I'll say, you know, but yeah we can move on if you want, let's slide over to fireworks. 0:51:46 - Speaker 7 You like fireworks? Yeah, me neither. The frustrating part Never back in old 72 Without school, just a gun, without a gun or trigger. I don't remember a reason. Set me sight of you. You said I couldn't get a fuck about the party. Never heard something true back before You held my hand. We were on the long way Loosing in my grip on Bobby Moore. Never heard anything wrong before I blushed. When these ever sensations get in your way, no doubt this shit me spurred right now By your shoulder, and that an amazing what you can't accomplish now I'm not together every single moment. That's what we thought. We'd be married. We both do deep with the grip of art, of fish chaos, believing in the country, me and you. Christ has a faith in Christ, the sinner cramming Yeah, we've heard all this before It's winter time. The house is solid to the bones, loosing in our grip on this fake cold war. Is it an amazing and a better accomplish When we don't let no nation get in our way? No doubt this shit me spurred right now By your shoulder, and that an amazing what you can't accomplish now, next to your comrades in the nation of fitness, the program regarding some eternal past time, clopping to the mind in a fit of laughter, showing no patience, no tolerance, no respect By your words, next to the distance, contemplating towering, towering star By your words. And in late, never, till there are no stars anymore By your words. And in, straight in heaven, contemplating towering, towering star, till there are no stars shining up in heaven, till there are no stars anymore. Isn't it an amazing and a better accomplish When we don't let no nation get in our way? No doubt this shit me spurred right now By your brand of error, shining up in heaven, contemplating towering, towering star. I think this one thing never goes away And this ones thing's always supposed to stop. Oh, this funny thing doesn't have to go away, and I'm gonna lie. 0:55:41 - Speaker 4 Oh fuck, How much time you got, then Fucking song, this song, i just have the word. It's this fucking rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. Just so much rush in this song. Really, there's a couple of rush references on this record and this is number one. I would say that is it. Gord Sinclair, yeah, so like and I think he would agree with me, because I don't know that I don't know any bass player in Canada, let alone the entire world, would put them up against Geddy Lee. So I can't like, true, Like. I don't think the bass in this song was supremely rushed, but the chord progression, the structure of the song, the lyrics, isn't it amazing? anything's accomplished Is fucking. It's so fucking dude, it's fucking rush, completely Fucking. It's like they should have just made a record with one song on it and sent it to Rush and been like this is for you guys, we love you guys. And dude, i'm not saying anything remotely like they jocked anything. It's an homage in the sweetest sense. It's fucking beautiful. I fucking listened to the song so many times. There's I don't know if he's playing a Les Paul or a Hamer Rob Baker, but it's got some hollow tone electric guitar. There's a line in there Christ in the Kremlin. I'm fucking. The words in this song are fucking spectacular. I bet it just destroyed. Destroyed. The crowd live Like. I mean if they played this fucking live you'd have to close with this or I don't know what you'd play with this. I mean it's just fuck. What's the other line Next year? comrades in the National Fitness Program caught in some external flex arm hang dropping the mat. Dude the lot. This that the way he speeds up that verse and fits all those fucking words into that, and then he goes back to the normal cadence, like when I say cadence I mean like the tempo, not a modal cadence, but like tempo. He goes back to that. I just bet when they, when they all listened to this track after it was mixed, or they all recorded everything, they all just fucking high-fived and hugged each other and had a big old fucking circle 100% Yeah. Dude, it's a fucking. It's one of my favorite fucking hip songs period. 0:58:23 - Speaker 3 Oh, you know what they. You know what they said after they recorded this. They were like this is going to be an every jukebox across Canada. I mean, it's a jukebox song. I mean, really, this is like play something by the tragically hip. Okay, i'm at the jukebox. Stick in a quarter. Oh, here's fireworks. Everybody loves this song. You know, that's that's. I couldn't agree more, pete. I just felt like this could be put on a seven inch only and out in the world. You know it was one of the first songs in a while where, like, i immediately just started snapping my fingers. It was like, okay, this, this song's, this song's moving. I completely agree with the rush references I love. I so identified with this girl. There was actually a girl who said she didn't give a fuck about hockey. I never heard a girl swear and I've never heard someone say that before. It was like there was some whole other world out there which is hard to fathom at times. I don't follow hockey. I totally identify with this. When I go on Facebook and it's like near the weekend it's mostly fucking NFL comments from people I know in Southern California. It's like, god damn, i wish I had a sports filter on my life because I don't really follow any sports. So the hockey the hockey comment, i was like yes, i, i want to hang out with you, let's go drink beers. You know, i probably follow that. It's whatever I just I just identify with that part, it's. You know this, though, you're right, pete, isn't it amazing you could do anything when the notion isn't in your way, believing in the country of me, and you, ah, you know, it's just, it's, it's, this is, it's more. It's more than an anthem. 1:00:17 - Speaker 4 You know, the crazy is so it's so, Getty Lee, though man. 1:00:21 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. What's? 1:00:24 - Speaker 4 this, it's, it's spirit of the radio. Okay. That's the song thing you have in so many ways. Yeah, i mean, and I don't think any musician in the band would say like they can you know drum? like Neil Pert? I think the guitar is pretty. It's got some solid Alex life and vibes. like you could fucking compare that guitar wise. but like bass and drums, you can't fucking come close to those, like it's just. but sorry, tim, i didn't mean to interrupt you, but it's just a fucking. 1:00:55 - Speaker 3 That's good. Good, it's such a JD. What JD, what? what were your thoughts on the song? Do you have, do you have memories of hearing the song, or anything, or like? 1:01:03 - Speaker 1 I think it's, I think it's a romantic song, Like. I think it's like the firework of like meeting somebody that is just, you know, absolutely the sparkle of your eye, you know, sort of thing. The context, to give you some context, the goal that he's talking about, the goal that everyone remembers, is when Canada beat the Soviets in 1972. And that was, that was during the Cold War. So it was a big deal, that series, Canada playing hockey against Russia. you know a few games here in Canada and a few games in Moscow. It was a big deal, Like for these Canadian hockey players to go to Russia. Like at that time Russia was so mysterious And there was a very famous goal that won the series by Paul Henderson that everyone remembers. It's one of those moments in Canada, the, if you're of the right age or generation I'm not, I'm born in 74. So it's over my head, But if you were there then it's one of those like you know where you were moments. you know what I mean. 1:02:10 - Speaker 3 It's huge huge moment in sports history. 1:02:13 - Speaker 1 So for him to be just blown away. Like you know, loosening my grip on Bobby Orr, like I just picture, the 16 year old who's in love with Bobby Orr has the hockey cards on the wall, you know, he's just tremendous and all of a sudden he just oh, there's girls out there. Oh, and there's this particular girl who doesn't give a fuck about what, like whoa fireworks, you know. 1:02:40 - Speaker 3 Yeah, great song, Great song. This. yeah, I could have had this song, you know, and had a satisfied meal and went to bed. 1:02:49 - Speaker 1 You and your food All right. Go next to vapor trails. 1:02:58 - Speaker 3 So vapor trails, like I started this one and paused and had to come back to it, i didn't keep going like this, this, this, this was one of the breaks. And now for me, where I was like, okay, i'm not, either not in it enough or not focused enough, let's come back to it and didn't hold your attention. He would not not at the get go, but eventually it did. Oh, eventually it did bring me in. It totally was one of those songs that I wasn't so sure about, but over time was like humming it while walking around the house. You know, there's just to me it has some mysticism to it. There's this mysterious not to say it again but backup singer, whoever is in there. I mean there's some really good backup singing happening, but I just love some of the lyrics. There's nothing uglier than a man hitting a stride. 1:04:00 - Speaker 1 What a great lyric, right Dude And just the way he says it as well. There's nothing uglier than a man hitting a stride, yeah. 1:04:09 - Speaker 3 I can't wait to use that some point in life. You know, watching something happen, yeah, chords, use that line, throw away the rudder, float away, like they portrayals. You know, i get this. It's like, it's this feeling of like giving up. You know, at some point we all, everyone, i think everyone has contemplated, you know, life being different or serious change, or giving up, or you know, we've all had these heavy times in our lives and maybe the song kind of hits on that. There's amazing guitar riffing just towards four minute mark. It felt, you know, just to kind of wrap it up. For me it felt like a produced ending. You know, the fade out was like it wasn't just let's wrap the song up, let's just fade it out, it was like let's produce the fade out. So it was a little, i don't know a little more, a little more orchestrated. But yeah, it's, this song is. This song was a banger. I think it was really good for the spot in the album. I think it was like really fitting. 1:05:27 - Speaker 1 Yeah, because we're well into the second side now. Yeah yeah. Second track, second side, if you're playing by those roles, It has a good place, good place in the album. What do you think of APR Trail's Pete? 1:05:39 - Speaker 4 Well, this is the other thing that I thought was it's not. It's not a Rush reference, but I actually think there's a possibility that Rush's 2001 record Vapor 12, vapor Trails was perhaps, maybe, an homage to Tragically Hip. Wow, i don't know, that's my, that's my in my dream world. I don't know if that's really true, but and I saw them on that tour and they were fucking just amazing. Saw them at the Irvine Meadows man. 1:06:18 - Speaker 1 Such a great show. 1:06:19 - Speaker 4 Never saw. 1:06:20 - Speaker 1 Rush. I was supposed to see Rush on a tour in 93 and guess who was opening for them? Who, tragically Hip Jesus Christ. Wow, on Road Apples. Yeah, dude. 1:06:30 - Speaker 4 I don't know what's a bigger fail That or not partying with them. 1:06:34 - Speaker 1 Oh God, it's the, that's the, that's the fail. 1:06:36 - Speaker 3 They're close. Not partying, I think. 1:06:39 - Speaker 4 Well, we, let's put it this way, we, we, we showed to that concert, i think, and they were they, we were at that time. It's strange, real quick, because I know. but during that time, because 2001 was coming out of the Napster years and years, right And into, like I think it was right where the iPods came out, um, so people started buying music online again, sort of. So bands didn't have money to pay for opening bands during that time, so a lot of bands would tour and be like who's opening? And like there's nobody opening. So we assumed that somebody was opening, for Rush happened to me with pavement one time, but that's another story Um, and we walked, we're, we're racing through the parking lot Because we hear a spirit of the radio, but right into Red Bar Chat after that and just fucking made my, made my life. But to the song. Paper Trails. Um, the fucking vocal melody in the opening verse same. I got the same cadence, Tim. I don't know if you mentioned this as Thompson girl. Um, but the song I loved it. I imagine when they sung this song live, that when Gord sings the line you can throw away the rudder. He probably blows out either part of the low end or part of the mid end frequencies in the fucking speakers at this this, this house, his voice is just at that frequency where, if he really punches it like he could, he could break. He could break some fucking windows, because it's, it's just fucking just the way he delivers that shit. Throw away the rudder, um, uh, what else? Yeah, just that line to me was worth buying the fucking record. Pulled the car over. There's nothing uglier. Yeah. Then a man hitting his stride. Yeah, there's a transition from the bridge back to the chord progression. That's super abrupt And it's so cool because there's no transition. It's just like boom, boom, they go right back into the chord progression and it's fucking cool. I'm not, can't think of any band that I've heard do that. And then the last thing is the line, and it's it's. It's maybe Rob Baker, i don't know who's singing the backup, but Mexicans dressed in beige shirts Crazy line, yeah. 1:09:16 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I've never heard that Mexicans dressed in beige shirts. 1:09:19 - Speaker 4 It's. It's like almost whispered. 1:09:25 - Speaker 3 Wow references you know references, folks who spend their life picking the strawberries and raspberries. 1:09:31 - Speaker 1 We, i believe, Yeah, I would guess so. 1:09:37 - Speaker 3 I believe it does So yeah. 1:09:39 - Speaker 4 Are we going to? 1:09:40 - Speaker 1 rules. You got it, dude. 1:09:48 - Speaker 4 I love the song. It was so fucking cool and so chill. This starts out with those huge cymbal crashes in the beginning. This is the second song in the record that references a pedestrian crossing, talks about a crossing guard not doing their job. 1:10:04 - Speaker 1 So yeah, it's really reference of and the second reference of super farmer. Uh-huh Right. 1:10:11 - Speaker 3 In that same in that same Stan's line. Got some agricultural themes happening. Probably the third agricultural theme. 1:10:21 - Speaker 4 Yeah, I don't know I just the phrasing was beautiful. I'm wondering what a bard is. B-a-r-d. 1:10:28 - Speaker 3 There's a couple of references with that. One is it has to do with a Shakespeare reference. 1:10:35 - Speaker 1 That's what I thought, yeah. 1:10:36 - Speaker 3 Yeah, and then the other one is I'm not going to butcher it, the other one has to do with fighting. I have to look it up. 1:10:46 - Speaker 1 Let's just go with Shakespeare. 1:10:48 - Speaker 3 Yeah, it's some Shakespeare reference. 1:10:52 - Speaker 4 And then to the line about the vacuum's got a guarantee. I just that line hooked me in so much because it was so random that I was like really in just pay super close attention to what he said. And the next line that he delivers, which is it could suck a virus, an ancient virus from the sea, is like what the like again put on the hat, put on your jacket, close the briefcase. Fucking. Done your job today. 1:11:23 - Speaker 1 Leave the office, gordon, that's right Punch out or whatever. 1:11:27 - Speaker 4 The whole, that whole stand is fucking amazing. There's a table slide And then oh, by the way, this song, and fuck, there was one other song. God damn this song. and one other song at the record. on the record It's earlier. I want to say it may be something on or say the planet. at the very end of it You hear the word somebody in the studio is cool. Yeah, so it doesn't feel so and there was one other two, one other song on the record that they did, so I was like they did that twice. 1:12:05 - Speaker 1 That's cool. I'm going to need access to your premium sound system. 1:12:10 - Speaker 4 Well, I mean GD, that's. We know this is not stuff we just hand on. It's kind of like you know top secret Clarence, There's a lot involved, A lot of screaming All right, all right, all right. 1:12:22 - Speaker 3 He passed. He's done it. Yes, true, yes, we're adjourning my current, for he's had it. Yeah, i heard the song and I thought Pete loves this song so much And when we come talk about it on the pod it's going to be all Pete. 1:12:43 - Speaker 1 You know how much to say. 1:12:44 - Speaker 3 I thought it was kind of a yonder. I got you know some, some from it, But you know I was like this. The song isn't for me. I thought it was kind of a yonder. I was going to leave it to Pete. 1:12:58 - Speaker 1 We're going to come back in a year because it's going to be a grower for you. I guarantee this song will be a grower for you. 1:13:04 - Speaker 3 If it's not, you guys both have to buy me beers. I can live with that, Yeah, yeah. 1:13:11 - Speaker 1 Okay. Well then let's slide into Sugar and Falls Ohio. 1:13:15 - Speaker 4 Take it Timbo. 1:13:17 - Speaker 3 Yeah, so Sugar and Falls. So this song I thought was basically a huge fuck off to corporate man, to the man. I thought this is like. This song is driving some culture into the fan base. It's probably, you know, was played a lot on the radio. I thought this one you know I could be wrong, but this song to me felt like on the verge of angry a little bit more than usual. I'd maybe really wonder about it live, if this got more raucous, if it got a little bit more I don't know violent feeling. And I think it's because it thematically, which is where I'm going to go, not so much with music on this one, but thematically it Sugar and Falls, in my research. That's the headquarters of Clear Channel, which at the time Clear Channel Corporation was slowly taking over media, especially North America. Yeah, so that's a lot of the references to Grand Falls. You know where the unknown won't even go. Because at this point I mean that line to me says if you're an artist and you're trying to make it like, avoid your Grand Falls, avoid Clear Channel, you know, be careful with what radio you're sending your tapes to your CDs to like this. This is that song that is kind of the band's shout to the world of, you know, corporate media is taking over the airwaves, you know, be aware So that that to me the song has like a mission. It felt like the first time I listened to it. When I got to you know, three quarters, two thirds of the way through, i thought is this song like over five minutes? you know it felt long, but it didn't feel long in a bad way, like it felt like a good, just a really well written song. Like I was kind of digging through Grand Falls, it felt like a five minute song, but it's not a five minute song. I didn't look up live versions of it but I definitely want to find something. 1:15:47 - Speaker 1 Yeah, get the answers to your questions. I can't, unfortunately, answer because I saw them on that tour and I don't remember if they played it, but I can't. 1:15:57 - Speaker 3 It was somewhat rare. I feel like it was probably going to be a rare rarely. 1:16:01 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it would be one that would be, you know, gosh. Well, let me just quickly look up how many times they played it. 1:16:09 - Speaker 3 I mean for people that don't know, Clear Channel took over corporate. I mean took over FM radio. Over time, like so many stations became Clear Channel stations and became programmed. And I remember hearing the transition because, as a big radio listener, being bored in 71, you know, i listened to radio for like 20 years, 15 at least, 20 years and they just completely took over And I remember hearing DJs demeanor changing from independent radio station to now being put into this box And I feel like that's what the band is trying to talk about in this song And I think it's their fuck you to this corporate system of being in a band and trying to make it and just to inspire people to be independently minded. 1:17:08 - Speaker 4 Yeah, it's funny you mentioned Clear Channel only because I want to talk about the song, because I feel a little bit different about the song in some ways than you do, tim, and it's funny, like Tim, i didn't do fucking a pubic here. The research you did for this fucking song. I had to look up where Chagrin Falls was but, and I dug it. But yeah, that's when there used to be a great station in classic rock station in LA called Arrow 93. And they went over to that Jack. You know that Jack format Jack FM, which is just, it's just a guy who like record something and it's like a cheesy line and he

Jane Healey is the #1 Washington Post bestselling author of The Secret Stealers, The Beantown Girls, The Saturday Evening Girls Club, and the new book Goodnight from Paris.  Healey shares her journey as a writer and how she got her first book published after facing rejection from 70 agents. She also discusses the importance of having a day job while pursuing writing and the different pathways to success in publishing. Healey talks about her writing process, marketing strategy, and how she aims to publish one book every two years.  Are you an aspiring writer struggling to get published? In the latest episode of the Work From Home Show, bestselling author Jane Healey shares her journey to becoming a published novelist. Here are 5 lessons we can learn from her experience: Perseverance is key: Jane faced 70 rejections before getting her first book deal. She didn't give up on her dream, and neither should you. Have a day job: Writing can be a tough industry to break into, so it's important to have a steady income while you work on your craft. Jane worked as a product manager while pursuing her writing career. Consider different publishing options: There are different pathways to success in publishing, including self-publishing and traditional publishing. Jane won a crowdsourced publishing contest called Kindle First, which led to her dream editor offering her a publishing deal. Writing can happen anywhere: Jane has been known to write in skating rinks and school pickup lines. While she now has a home office, sometimes she needs to leave the house to focus on the first draft. Marketing is key: Jane invests in a publicist and uses social media to promote her books. She is also grateful for the support of readers and libraries in the New England area. So, keep these lessons in mind as you pursue your writing career. And don't forget to check out Jane's books, available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and other bookstores. Happy writing! Introduction [00:00:01] Introduction to the podcast episode and the hosts. Jane Healey's background [00:01:03] Discussion of Jane Healey's background and her journey as a writer. Working in tech and pursuing writing [00:03:05] Discussion of the benefits of working in tech while pursuing writing as a side hustle. Different pathways to success in publishing [00:05:09] Discussion of the different pathways to success in publishing, including traditional publishing, self-publishing, and independent publishing. Jane Healey's path to getting published [00:06:18] Discussion of Jane Healey's path to getting her first book published, including submitting manuscripts to agents and participating in a crowdsourced publishing contest. Discovering the Contest [00:08:40] Jane Healey talks about how she learned about the contest that helped her get her first book published. Different Paths to Publication [00:09:05] Naresh Vissa and Jane Healey discuss the various ways authors can get their books published. Writing Process and Location [00:10:08] Jane Healey shares her writing process and where she prefers to write. Frequency of Book Releases [00:12:46] Naresh Vissa and Jane Healey talk about the ideal frequency of book releases and how it affects marketing. Marketing and Promotion [00:15:04] Jane Healey discusses the role of her publisher, publicist, and social media in marketing and promoting her books. Web: www.janehealey.com   TRANSCRIPT Speaker 0 (00:00:01) - Forced to work from home by your employer laid off or feeling depressed at home. Do you wanna make money working from anywhere? We'll show you how to do it from your couch. It's time for another episode of The Work From Home Show coming to you from their homes in Austin, Texas, and Tampa, Florida. Here are your hosts, Adam and Naresh. Speaker 1 (00:00:28) - Hey everybody. Welcome to the Work From Home Show. Shout out to all our homies, homeboys, homegirls, home Trans, all the work from Homers out there. I'm Naresh Bisa. Today we have Jane Healy on the show. She is the number one New York Times and Washington Post bestselling author of The Secret Steelers, the Beantown Girls, the Saturday Evening Girls Club, and the new book Goodnight from Paris. Jane Healy, thank you so much for joining us on the Work from Home Show. Speaker 2 (00:00:59) - Oh, thank you so much for ha having me. I'm so happy to be here. Speaker 1 (00:01:03) - So are you a f would you characterize yourself as a full-time fiction writer Speaker 2 (00:01:08) - Now? I am, yes. Yeah, I wouldn't care for, you know, the first 10 years I was doing this, I wouldn't characterize myself as that. But yes, now I am. Speaker 1 (00:01:15) - Well, let's talk about those first 10 years, . Did you work a full-time job and do this on the side? Obviously it makes sense now for you to be full-time because you have all these New York Times and Washington Post bestselling books. But walk us through those first 10 years, how you got started, how you got your first book published. Speaker 2 (00:01:34) - Yeah, so, um, I was actually, um, back in the day I was a product manager in high tech, believe it or not. I was a, I was a whole different thing. And then, um, my daughters were born, uh, they're 19 and 16 now. And so I pivoted to doing, um, freelance writing with, so I would really, I was working from home actually doing whatever anyone would pay me for. So it was a lot of, I did a lot of magazines and journals and things like that, but also a lot of private client work. Um, but I'd always wanted to write novels. And my first novel, the Saturday Evening Girls Club is actually came from an article I wrote for Boston Magazine about, um, about the group and the pottery that they, um, that they made. And so that I worked on the Saturday Evening Girls Club, um, novel in the fringes of my life, I like to say, for about 10 years. And, um, and you know, the first time out I just, I tried to get it published. I got a, like, I don't know, I stopped counting at 70 rejections, I think , I don't even know. Um, but then in 2017, um, I finally got a break and that novel came out in 2017. Speaker 1 (00:02:39) - So your first book was published in 2017? Speaker 2 (00:02:42) - Yes. Speaker 1 (00:02:43) - And you, so that means you've come out with almost a book every two years if, if I'm not mistaken, correct. 20, Speaker 2 (00:02:50) - It's, that's exactly right. Yes. Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:02:52) - Okay, cool. So your background, you said you worked in tech. Is your background in business or technology, is that like what you did after college? Tell us a little bit more before you started working and how you ended up working in tech. Speaker 2 (00:03:05) - Yeah, that, you know, um, it, it was a, I, I'm from Boston, Boston area. There's a lot of tech companies. It was kind of a boom when I first got outta college. So, um, you know, and I knew, you know, I've always wanted to write novels, but I didn't know anyone who got outta college and just started writing novels and paid off their student loans and were able to move outta their house and, you know, all of that. So, um, so, you know, there was a lot of tech jobs and I always tell young people who wanna be, you know, who wanna write novels, I said, I always say, don't count out tech because, um, you know, you need to make a living. And tech, you know, the tech field always is always looking for good writers, good communicators, you know, and, and it's, it's fascinating. You know, there's always new technology is fascinating and changing all the time. So I, I always tell people like, don't, you know, don't rule that out because you can make a living and, and also pursue your dream of fiction on the side. Speaker 1 (00:03:57) - Yeah. And when, when you got started, there wasn't self-publishing, now you have self-publishing available, correct? Mm-hmm. , I, and, and of course you're not a self, you're New York Times Washington Post bestseller list. So you, you have your own publisher, you, you have your own agent most likely. But now it, it's easier. And we've done a few episodes in the past about how we recommend that you work a job, you work in tech, you work from home, and you do this on the side. And that's what I've been doing. I've, I've published five books, uh, self-published. Speaker 2 (00:04:32) - Oh, awesome. Speaker 1 (00:04:33) - Yeah. Through through my publishing company. Uh, and I'm a technical writer. I write mostly business, non-fiction, e-commerce technology. Speaker 2 (00:04:41) - Oh, okay. So we have that in common. Yep. Speaker 1 (00:04:44) - . Yeah. Not a whole lot of, of, of fiction though, but, but I think the important takeaway is, like you said, there are a lot of aspiring authors out there, especially fiction authors. Yes. And if you think you're just gonna quit your job and write a book or graduate from school and, and write a book, our recommendation is work that product manager work, work wherever. Yes. And, and write the book on the side. Speaker 2 (00:05:09) - That's absolutely right. Um, we're, you know, yeah, work with work the fiction as a side hustle for a while. And I, and I think you brought up an important, important point. We're in a really interesting time in publishing. Um, there's many different pathways to success now with, with independent publishing, self-publishing, traditional publishing, and um, you know, cuz I've had some friends who, you know, for years tried to get an agent, tried to get published, tried to get, you know, get that publishing deal and, um, a couple of them have broken out. One of them is a romance writer and she decided to self-publish. Um, and she put three books out, um, and had a very strategic marketing plan along with it, social media. And she's crushing it. She's crushing it as a self-published romance author. And I'm so thrilled for her. So that, you know, there's more than one path to success in publishing now. And it's, it's, it's evolving all the time. Speaker 1 (00:06:01) - So the, the important question that many people are wondering and people who do want to go the traditional route, cause it's very hard to go the traditional route. How did you get that first deal? Did you just submit manuscripts to publishers or did you meet an agent somewhere? Speaker 2 (00:06:18) - Yeah, so my path, again, there's a lot of different paths. I was, you know, the first time out w with those 70 rejections I mentioned , those were all from agents, you know, I mean, I think the traditional route you usually think of, like, you get the agent first, then you, you know, the agent shops your book to publishers and hopefully you get a, a publishing deal out of that. Um, so that didn't happen for me. I, you know, I, I wrote another manuscript that we'll never see the light of day. And then I took the Saturday Girls Club out like a year later and was like, you know what, I'm just gonna give this one more try. And I started putting my agent list together. But at the time there was, um, there was this contest, um, this Kindle first contest, um, and it was, it, it's no longer, it was only up for like a year, but basically it was like a crowdsourced publishing contest where you could, you'd put your manu, you'd submit your manuscript to this website. Speaker 2 (00:07:12) - It was run by Amazon. Um, and, um, people would vote for it whether they thought it deserved to be published or not. But I knew that I, I put it up there because I knew that agents and editors were also checking out that mm-hmm. that contest for pro projects. And I actually said when I put it up there the night before, I said, I'm really just doing this cuz I want Danielle Marshall from Lake Union Publishing to, to see it on there and offer me a publishing deal. And my husband was like, and I were just laughed like, yeah, sure. Like that's a pipe dream. And so I put it up on Kindle first and um, 30 days later I found out that I won. Now there was multiple winners on that contest. Um, was Speaker 1 (00:07:53) - This voting based? Speaker 2 (00:07:54) - Yeah, it was vote people voted for your PR on this website, um, as to whether you deserved a publishing deal. And it was an e-book publishing deal, which was not what I wanted either, but I was like, I have nothing to lose this manuscript. Speaker 1 (00:08:07) - Yeah, you gotta start somewhere Speaker 2 (00:08:08) - Sitting on my computer, . I might as well try. Um, so I, I I wanted the real deal, but I'm like, whatever, I'll give it a try. I'm just, you know, all the angles. And, um, so I won that. But then two days later, um, Danielle Marshall from Lake Union Publishing, um, de my dream editor actually called me and said, um, you know, we wanna publish the Saturday Women Girls Club. Speaker 1 (00:08:34) - That's awesome. And, and Speaker 2 (00:08:36) - Yeah, it was wild. Speaker 1 (00:08:37) - How did you find out about this contest? Speaker 2 (00:08:40) - Um, you know, it was, as you probably know, like I'm on a lot of writers, you know, writer inbox, different platforms, different groups and um, and people were talking about it and, um, on social media and everywhere else. And so that's, that's how I first learned about it. And, you know, it, it was only out, out and up there for like a year. But, um, but uh, it was long enough for for me to get on there and for Danielle to find my project. So that was amazing. Speaker 1 (00:09:05) - I think it's great because we've interviewed, we continue to interview a lot of number one New York Times bestselling authors and everyone has their own unique story as to how they got that first deal. We've never heard this before where you got it through a contest. We've had people who said they self-published a book, did really well, the, they sold the rights. We've had people say, you know, I just submitted a manuscript and, and boom, they liked it. Yeah. And we've had people like you who, or we haven't had, you're the first one who said, you got you, you got your foot in the door or your feet in the door through a contest. Speaker 2 (00:09:41) - Yeah, it, yeah. And that's, that goes to show you, um, there's many different paths to publication I should mention too, like I am, um, Amazon charts bestselling author, author number one on Kindle and, um, Washington Post bestselling, but not New York Times. I, I wanna just correct that just to, to let you know, I'm not sure if that, if you, you, you might have, uh, been given that detail wrong. Speaker 1 (00:10:02) - Well I'm sure your next book or the book you will eventually make the New York Speaker 2 (00:10:07) - Times . That's right, yeah, Speaker 1 (00:10:08) - That's the home and how much your books have. So I mean, your bulk books have sold super well. So do you write from home or do you have an office or what, what's your writing process? Speaker 2 (00:10:17) - I write, um, you know, I was with the Saturday Evening Girls Club cuz I was writing it between other writing projects and in the fringes of my life, I, I've, I can write pretty much anywhere including like skating rinks and school pickup lines and everywhere else. Um, I do have a home office now, which is nice. And I, I'm actually, we have a basement office cuz my husband's often working from a home now, like a lot of people. Um, so I'm in the basement hiding from my pets and people. Um, but yeah, I, I can work anywhere. Um, sometimes getting the first draft down is the hardest for me. I think it's the hardest for a lot of people and, um, I, I find it's better if I leave the house and I put my headphones on and I go somewhere where I don't have to be interrupted by laundry and other things . So, um, so the first draft I often have to like go somewhere quiet. Um, and just like the focus and the concentration, um, is better when I'm not at home. Speaker 1 (00:11:12) - So when you're at the skating rinks, pickup lines, are you writing on your phone or are you actually taking a laptop with you and like writing Speaker 2 (00:11:19) - The car? Oh yeah, yeah. Usually a laptop. Although, um, you know, sometimes, especially now if I'm like working on a new project and I mean, I'm, I'm, I will sometimes like dictate into my phone more than type, cuz I mean, I feel like I just, my fingers aren't small enough for that . So yeah. So yeah, I will all I'll, I'll sometimes dictate into my phone, um, you know, just so I won't just, so I won't forget frankly, like later on, um, if I'm, if I'm walking or running or in the car or wherever, Speaker 1 (00:11:50) - That's pretty impressive because I, I do a lot of writing on my phone, but to do it at random places, like pickup lines and, and skating rinks, especially fiction where like non-fiction, I feel you can go back reference, verify, if you forget something, it's EAs but fiction, you just have to write whatever in, in the moment. You have to write in the moment. Yes. Which makes it a lot harder because if you're in a pickup line and then you get interrupted by somebody who you're picking up and then it's like, that's, that thought is kind of gone. Speaker 2 (00:12:26) - . Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not easy, but, but that's exactly why I, you know, like I said, sometimes I'm dictating, sometimes I'm, you know, whatever, whatever works right to get, to get the story down . Speaker 1 (00:12:39) - So are, are you planning to write more books maybe one every two years moving forward? Is that the long-term plan? Speaker 2 (00:12:46) - That is the long-term plan. I, I, you know, frankly with the amount of research, um, historical fiction requires, I, I don't think I could do it faster than that. I'm really in awe of, of writers who can, um, some writers can crank out a book a year. I just, that's just not, that's not how I work. I mean, just from just coming up with the i an idea that I think is compelling and fresh and new and, uh, you know, lesser known history, whatever it is, um, that takes time. And then research to see if there's enough there, there, um, to, you know, I like to use history and research as a jumping off point for stories. So, um, so yeah, the, the process, it takes me longer than, um, than some people, but, um, but you know, it, it works for me. So I'm ho uh, that's my plan is hopefully every other year, Speaker 1 (00:13:32) - I think once every two years is more than enough. And f from a marketing perspective, I just think if you're coming out with so much with one a year, e every book is gonna, essentially can cannibalize the previous book. Uh, whereas if you come out, you know, once every two years, once every three years, you can really focus on that book that comes out, promote only the, um, that's just how I feel from, from a market. I, I think it's overkill because we have interviewed authors who come out with one book a year, even two books a year. Yes. And, and you just lose track. When I read their, their titles, they're like, oh no, that was my book from six months ago. I just came out with one last week. And it's like, oh, uh, okay. And then, and then they'll promote their next book that's coming out in like three months after that. And it's like, this is, this is overkill. You know, why don't we just stick to one book? Speaker 2 (00:14:21) - . Yeah. I, I, I kind of tend to agree I, unless maybe, um, like I said, my friend, my friend who writes romance, like the, that market, um, those readers are hungry for, for at least a book or two a year. I, but yeah, for anything else, like I, I feel like this is enough and I don't want people to get sick of me , frankly. Like, I don't wanna be on your show next talking about another book, you know, so, so yeah, I, I agree with you. I think I, I think the pace of this, um, feels right to me. Speaker 1 (00:14:51) - And is it your publisher who's doing the marketing? Like you have a huge following, you're selling a lot of copies, you have a fan club, is it them or did you do anything on your own to develop your, your readership? Speaker 2 (00:15:04) - Yeah, you know, it's funny, it's a little bit of everything. Um, my publisher's super supportive. They do a lot of marketing. Um, but I also, um, have a publicist that I, I decided to, you know, invest in myself. I, um, I do a lot of social media, but I, I've tried to balance that. I, I've pulled back a little bit from that, frankly, because I think the most important thing is the work, you know, is, is due in the, is is writing quality books and, and if you spend too much time on social media, you don't have enough time for writing. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think it, I I think the hustle in publishing in in is real. And, um, and I, I've really been blessed with, um, you know, I have a, I have some really wonderful readers who have become friends over the past six years, and, um, and that's been terrific. I also have a lot of really supportive libraries in the New England area. So I'm, I'm doing a lot of talks at different libraries and bookstores, a lot of, some really great independent bookstores. Um, so that's, that's been really fun too. And, and, and they've been super supportive. So I'm, I'm really blessed in that way. Speaker 1 (00:16:09) - Jane Healy, thank you so much for joining us on The Work From Home Show. Check out her books on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever books are sold. She is a number one Washington Post bestselling author of The Secret Steelers, the Beantown Girls Saturday Evening Girls Club, and her new book, which is on the, the stands right now. Goodnight from Paris. The website is jane healy.com. Healy is spelled H e a l e y Jane healy.com. Jane Healy, any final thoughts you'd like to share with our listeners or anything else you want to promote? Speaker 2 (00:16:48) - No, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I, you know, I, I feel like, um, you know, I didn't realize your background was a, as a writer as well, so it's always fun to talk to other writers about process and, and you know, where you're at with all of that. So it, this was a great conversation. Thank you. Speaker 1 (00:17:05) - No, thank you Jane. It's been a pleasure. To Wal our listeners, check us out at work from home show.com. That's www.workfromhomeshow.com. If you have any questions for us or comments, email us hello at work from home show.com. That's hello work from home show.com. Follow us on social media, we're on Twitter, we're on Facebook. Leave uss a review on whatever podcasting platform you use, iTunes, tune in Stitcher, et cetera. And until next week, keep on working from home.  

Land Investing From the Road: Update Number 3 (LA 1863) Transcript: Speaker 1: Steven, Jill here. Speaker 2: Hello. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Speaker 2: And I'm Jill DeWitt, broadcasting from Hall, the MotorCity from Detroit. Speaker 1: Today Jill and I talk about land investing from the road and this is update number three. We started in Arizona, we worked our way across the country. Spent way too much time because we were having a blast in Colorado. Didn't spend too much time, but had a blast in Nebraska, Iowa and Wisconsin. Speaker 2: So last week when we were recording, we were coming to you from Traverse City, Michigan. As you can see, we didn't make it that far. We have a lot of family to see and we're actually having a good time. You know what? We have a lot of family to see and the weather has been cooperative. And those of you who know Michigan, especially know the northern parts, it's so pretty with your lakes. It's just awesome. My favorite's been Harbor Springs now. Now I moved, I keep changing my favorite places. Speaker 1: There's a huge, huge gap between the sale prices for houses and sale prices for land, which is great for us. Speaker 2: It's true. Speaker 1: So the whole time that we've been doing this, Jill and I have been researching land, land values, all the way, every time we get in a car. So I've come up personally with a bunch of places I want to send mail throughout. Speaker 2: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? So wait, let me just go... I want to continue that thought for just a minute. We're on the north west side of Lake- Speaker 1: St. Clair. Speaker 2: St. Clair, okay. And I've noticed homes around here. You can get a home for $200 000 to $300,000 and then there's lots for $200 000 to $300,000. So you're right, these numbers being all over the map are good for us. Speaker 1: It is great for us. Where we're sitting is not a place you want to buy land at all. But there have been places on the way here where you got 5, 6, 7 and mostly upstate Michigan, we call it up north here, $800,000 houses. And then lots are on the MLS for $20,000 in the same vicinity. So those are great places to send mail. Speaker 2: Well the Michigan started to come out there for a second. Speaker 1: Oh yeah? Speaker 2: Yeah. I like it. Speaker 1: I'm not happy about it. Speaker 2: It's good. Speaker 1: Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free and I hope by now Jill and I instruct a handful of new and existing Land Academy members in a one on one class called Career Path. So it's for people who, this is already your career or you want it to be career called Career Path. I think Jill, you got a class coming up, right? Speaker 2: And by the way, October 12th, as this launches we are 10 days out. I may still have slots for recording, I do. As of, when this is releasing, I'm not sure. But if this is something that you really think about, please schedule a call with me and you could actually schedule a call with me. Just go to landacademy.com/careerpath, scroll down and there's a spot to click on and schedule a call and I'll call you. If you think, "Ah, shoot. You know what Jill? I think this is the direction we're going. I think I'm ready for it or I just don't want to wait that long to get ramped up. I got this. How fast can I get to your level?" That's who Career Path is for and I will happily have a chat with you and even Jack too. Speaker 1: Or, "Haha, we passed you guys a long time ago, but we could use your advice." Speaker 2: Oh, not usually that, but that's okay. Anyway, just to click on that, schedule a call and I'll have a chat with you and we'll figure it out. So, thank you. All right, so back to the question Kim wrote, "I have a purchase agreement signed and there are three owners. The seller I'm talking has stated he has talked with ma...

Land Investing From the Road: Update Number 3 (LA 1863) Transcript: Speaker 1: Steven, Jill here. Speaker 2: Hello. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Speaker 2: And I'm Jill DeWitt, broadcasting from Hall, the MotorCity from Detroit. Speaker 1: Today Jill and I talk about land investing from the road and this is update number three. We started in Arizona, we worked our way across the country. Spent way too much time because we were having a blast in Colorado. Didn't spend too much time, but had a blast in Nebraska, Iowa and Wisconsin. Speaker 2: So last week when we were recording, we were coming to you from Traverse City, Michigan. As you can see, we didn't make it that far. We have a lot of family to see and we're actually having a good time. You know what? We have a lot of family to see and the weather has been cooperative. And those of you who know Michigan, especially know the northern parts, it's so pretty with your lakes. It's just awesome. My favorite's been Harbor Springs now. Now I moved, I keep changing my favorite places. Speaker 1: There's a huge, huge gap between the sale prices for houses and sale prices for land, which is great for us. Speaker 2: It's true. Speaker 1: So the whole time that we've been doing this, Jill and I have been researching land, land values, all the way, every time we get in a car. So I've come up personally with a bunch of places I want to send mail throughout. Speaker 2: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? So wait, let me just go... I want to continue that thought for just a minute. We're on the north west side of Lake- Speaker 1: St. Clair. Speaker 2: St. Clair, okay. And I've noticed homes around here. You can get a home for $200 000 to $300,000 and then there's lots for $200 000 to $300,000. So you're right, these numbers being all over the map are good for us. Speaker 1: It is great for us. Where we're sitting is not a place you want to buy land at all. But there have been places on the way here where you got 5, 6, 7 and mostly upstate Michigan, we call it up north here, $800,000 houses. And then lots are on the MLS for $20,000 in the same vicinity. So those are great places to send mail. Speaker 2: Well the Michigan started to come out there for a second. Speaker 1: Oh yeah? Speaker 2: Yeah. I like it. Speaker 1: I'm not happy about it. Speaker 2: It's good. Speaker 1: Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free and I hope by now Jill and I instruct a handful of new and existing Land Academy members in a one on one class called Career Path. So it's for people who, this is already your career or you want it to be career called Career Path. I think Jill, you got a class coming up, right? Speaker 2: And by the way, October 12th, as this launches we are 10 days out. I may still have slots for recording, I do. As of, when this is releasing, I'm not sure. But if this is something that you really think about, please schedule a call with me and you could actually schedule a call with me. Just go to landacademy.com/careerpath, scroll down and there's a spot to click on and schedule a call and I'll call you. If you think, "Ah, shoot. You know what Jill? I think this is the direction we're going. I think I'm ready for it or I just don't want to wait that long to get ramped up. I got this. How fast can I get to your level?" That's who Career Path is for and I will happily have a chat with you and even Jack too. Speaker 1: Or, "Haha, we passed you guys a long time ago, but we could use your advice." Speaker 2: Oh, not usually that, but that's okay. Anyway, just to click on that, schedule a call and I'll have a chat with you and we'll figure it out. So, thank you. All right, so back to the question Kim wrote, "I have a purchase agreement signed and there are three owners. The seller I'm talking has stated he has talked with ma...

Land Investing From the Road: Update Number 3 (LA 1863) Transcript: Speaker 1: Steven, Jill here. Speaker 2: Hello. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Speaker 2: And I'm Jill DeWitt, broadcasting from Hall, the MotorCity from Detroit. Speaker 1: Today Jill and I talk about land investing from the road and this is update number three. We started in Arizona, we worked our way across the country. Spent way too much time because we were having a blast in Colorado. Didn't spend too much time, but had a blast in Nebraska, Iowa and Wisconsin. Speaker 2: So last week when we were recording, we were coming to you from Traverse City, Michigan. As you can see, we didn't make it that far. We have a lot of family to see and we're actually having a good time. You know what? We have a lot of family to see and the weather has been cooperative. And those of you who know Michigan, especially know the northern parts, it's so pretty with your lakes. It's just awesome. My favorite's been Harbor Springs now. Now I moved, I keep changing my favorite places. Speaker 1: There's a huge, huge gap between the sale prices for houses and sale prices for land, which is great for us. Speaker 2: It's true. Speaker 1: So the whole time that we've been doing this, Jill and I have been researching land, land values, all the way, every time we get in a car. So I've come up personally with a bunch of places I want to send mail throughout. Speaker 2: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? So wait, let me just go... I want to continue that thought for just a minute. We're on the north west side of Lake- Speaker 1: St. Clair. Speaker 2: St. Clair, okay. And I've noticed homes around here. You can get a home for $200 000 to $300,000 and then there's lots for $200 000 to $300,000. So you're right, these numbers being all over the map are good for us. Speaker 1: It is great for us. Where we're sitting is not a place you want to buy land at all. But there have been places on the way here where you got 5, 6, 7 and mostly upstate Michigan, we call it up north here, $800,000 houses. And then lots are on the MLS for $20,000 in the same vicinity. So those are great places to send mail. Speaker 2: Well the Michigan started to come out there for a second. Speaker 1: Oh yeah? Speaker 2: Yeah. I like it. Speaker 1: I'm not happy about it. Speaker 2: It's good. Speaker 1: Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free and I hope by now Jill and I instruct a handful of new and existing Land Academy members in a one on one class called Career Path. So it's for people who, this is already your career or you want it to be career called Career Path. I think Jill, you got a class coming up, right? Speaker 2: And by the way, October 12th, as this launches we are 10 days out. I may still have slots for recording, I do. As of, when this is releasing, I'm not sure. But if this is something that you really think about, please schedule a call with me and you could actually schedule a call with me. Just go to landacademy.com/careerpath, scroll down and there's a spot to click on and schedule a call and I'll call you. If you think, "Ah, shoot. You know what Jill? I think this is the direction we're going. I think I'm ready for it or I just don't want to wait that long to get ramped up. I got this. How fast can I get to your level?" That's who Career Path is for and I will happily have a chat with you and even Jack too. Speaker 1: Or, "Haha, we passed you guys a long time ago, but we could use your advice." Speaker 2: Oh, not usually that, but that's okay. Anyway, just to click on that, schedule a call and I'll have a chat with you and we'll figure it out. So, thank you. All right, so back to the question Kim wrote, "I have a purchase agreement signed and there are three owners. The seller I'm talking has stated he has talked with ma...

Career Path Alumni Call Topic: Mailer Yield is Subjective (LA 1852) Transcript: Speaker 1: Steven Jill here. Speaker 2: Hello. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Speaker 2: And I'm Jill DeWit, broadcasting from the Valley of the Rain. If you're watching this and you are looking over my shoulder like, "I see a lot of green." Yeah, that's a lot of green. And it's wet green. We are literally sitting... As you can see, it's not as glamorous. I may or may not be in an RV dinette. Yes, that's exactly where I'm sitting. Highly encourage you to go on YouTube and you'll get a kick out of this. And, "Jill, why is your hair frizzy?" Oh, because it's big hair day here in the Valley of the Rain. It's a- Speaker 1: Our final child is officially in college, and the same week we left, Jill and I left in our RV and are driving across the country. We're in Madison, Wisconsin today. We were in Nebraska for the last couple of days before that, in Colorado for an entire week. Tomorrow will be in Michigan and we've got a wedding to go to in Northern Michigan. And then, who knows? Speaker 2: I got to tell you, this has been a blast. We've talked about this a lot. If you worry about, is there enough land out there? Take a drive across the country just once. I don't care where you go, what state you cross, just get out of your little bubble and drive around a little bit. You're going to go, "Oh yeah. There's a whole lot of land out here." There's also a whole lot of corn out here. We've found all the corn. Speaker 1: And beans. Speaker 2: And beans. Speaker 1: And- Speaker 2: Soybeans. Yup. Speaker 1: We obviously spent a couple of days in the heartland. Nicest people you ever want to meet. Speaker 2: Oh, we're having so much fun. Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely a blast. Yeah. Speaker 2: I find myself saying things like, "I had no idea Iowa was so cool", and "I had no idea that..." Yes, we did watch the Green Bay Packers and the Minnesota Vikings game. This is what's so cool, we got to see Iowa and Iowa State play, in Iowa, in a bar. And then the very next day, that was on a Saturday night, and the next day on Sunday night, we watched in Wisconsin, at Green Bay- Speaker 1: In Madison, Wisconsin. Speaker 2: In Madison Wisconsin. Speaker 1: Close to Green Bay. Speaker 2: Here. Yeah, we watched the game, the Green Bay and the Vikings game. Not going to talk about how that all went. Speaker 1: Yeah. We're the wrong Speaker 2: Those who live here where we're sitting, we won't bring that up. But anyway, it was fun and cool to say that I'm here and I get to be here with everybody watching I'm going to have such a blast. Speaker 1: The point is, we're in an RV doing our job's pretty effectively. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: All the land academy roles we have, and buying and selling land. So if we can do it, you can do it. Speaker 2: You can do anything. You really can. Speaker 1: If we only had to buy and sell land, we would work like half a day a week. Speaker 2: Once a week. That's it. Four hours, that's all I need Speaker 1: Today. Jill and I talk about career path alumni topic: how mailer yield is subjective the first Tuesday of every month. Everybody who has been through our career path program, and I think Jill's got another one start in October, we all get together and kind of have a mastermind group and this topic came up, and it was so... it hit me so square in the face in a good way that I want to talk about it today, because I think it's really going to help everybody. Speaker 2: Thank you. Speaker 1: Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the land investors.com online community. It's free Speaker 2: And can I say about this? Can I give this little- Speaker 1: Sure. Oh sure. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: So before you launch into Career Path, let me talk about career path for just a second. We are T minus 30 days.

Career Path Alumni Call Topic: Mailer Yield is Subjective (LA 1852) Transcript: Speaker 1: Steven Jill here. Speaker 2: Hello. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Speaker 2: And I'm Jill DeWit, broadcasting from the Valley of the Rain. If you're watching this and you are looking over my shoulder like, "I see a lot of green." Yeah, that's a lot of green. And it's wet green. We are literally sitting... As you can see, it's not as glamorous. I may or may not be in an RV dinette. Yes, that's exactly where I'm sitting. Highly encourage you to go on YouTube and you'll get a kick out of this. And, "Jill, why is your hair frizzy?" Oh, because it's big hair day here in the Valley of the Rain. It's a- Speaker 1: Our final child is officially in college, and the same week we left, Jill and I left in our RV and are driving across the country. We're in Madison, Wisconsin today. We were in Nebraska for the last couple of days before that, in Colorado for an entire week. Tomorrow will be in Michigan and we've got a wedding to go to in Northern Michigan. And then, who knows? Speaker 2: I got to tell you, this has been a blast. We've talked about this a lot. If you worry about, is there enough land out there? Take a drive across the country just once. I don't care where you go, what state you cross, just get out of your little bubble and drive around a little bit. You're going to go, "Oh yeah. There's a whole lot of land out here." There's also a whole lot of corn out here. We've found all the corn. Speaker 1: And beans. Speaker 2: And beans. Speaker 1: And- Speaker 2: Soybeans. Yup. Speaker 1: We obviously spent a couple of days in the heartland. Nicest people you ever want to meet. Speaker 2: Oh, we're having so much fun. Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely a blast. Yeah. Speaker 2: I find myself saying things like, "I had no idea Iowa was so cool", and "I had no idea that..." Yes, we did watch the Green Bay Packers and the Minnesota Vikings game. This is what's so cool, we got to see Iowa and Iowa State play, in Iowa, in a bar. And then the very next day, that was on a Saturday night, and the next day on Sunday night, we watched in Wisconsin, at Green Bay- Speaker 1: In Madison, Wisconsin. Speaker 2: In Madison Wisconsin. Speaker 1: Close to Green Bay. Speaker 2: Here. Yeah, we watched the game, the Green Bay and the Vikings game. Not going to talk about how that all went. Speaker 1: Yeah. We're the wrong Speaker 2: Those who live here where we're sitting, we won't bring that up. But anyway, it was fun and cool to say that I'm here and I get to be here with everybody watching I'm going to have such a blast. Speaker 1: The point is, we're in an RV doing our job's pretty effectively. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: All the land academy roles we have, and buying and selling land. So if we can do it, you can do it. Speaker 2: You can do anything. You really can. Speaker 1: If we only had to buy and sell land, we would work like half a day a week. Speaker 2: Once a week. That's it. Four hours, that's all I need Speaker 1: Today. Jill and I talk about career path alumni topic: how mailer yield is subjective the first Tuesday of every month. Everybody who has been through our career path program, and I think Jill's got another one start in October, we all get together and kind of have a mastermind group and this topic came up, and it was so... it hit me so square in the face in a good way that I want to talk about it today, because I think it's really going to help everybody. Speaker 2: Thank you. Speaker 1: Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the land investors.com online community. It's free Speaker 2: And can I say about this? Can I give this little- Speaker 1: Sure. Oh sure. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: So before you launch into Career Path, let me talk about career path for just a second. We are T minus 30 days.

Career Path Alumni Call Topic: Mailer Yield is Subjective (LA 1852) Transcript: Speaker 1: Steven Jill here. Speaker 2: Hello. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Land Academy Show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Speaker 2: And I'm Jill DeWit, broadcasting from the Valley of the Rain. If you're watching this and you are looking over my shoulder like, "I see a lot of green." Yeah, that's a lot of green. And it's wet green. We are literally sitting... As you can see, it's not as glamorous. I may or may not be in an RV dinette. Yes, that's exactly where I'm sitting. Highly encourage you to go on YouTube and you'll get a kick out of this. And, "Jill, why is your hair frizzy?" Oh, because it's big hair day here in the Valley of the Rain. It's a- Speaker 1: Our final child is officially in college, and the same week we left, Jill and I left in our RV and are driving across the country. We're in Madison, Wisconsin today. We were in Nebraska for the last couple of days before that, in Colorado for an entire week. Tomorrow will be in Michigan and we've got a wedding to go to in Northern Michigan. And then, who knows? Speaker 2: I got to tell you, this has been a blast. We've talked about this a lot. If you worry about, is there enough land out there? Take a drive across the country just once. I don't care where you go, what state you cross, just get out of your little bubble and drive around a little bit. You're going to go, "Oh yeah. There's a whole lot of land out here." There's also a whole lot of corn out here. We've found all the corn. Speaker 1: And beans. Speaker 2: And beans. Speaker 1: And- Speaker 2: Soybeans. Yup. Speaker 1: We obviously spent a couple of days in the heartland. Nicest people you ever want to meet. Speaker 2: Oh, we're having so much fun. Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely a blast. Yeah. Speaker 2: I find myself saying things like, "I had no idea Iowa was so cool", and "I had no idea that..." Yes, we did watch the Green Bay Packers and the Minnesota Vikings game. This is what's so cool, we got to see Iowa and Iowa State play, in Iowa, in a bar. And then the very next day, that was on a Saturday night, and the next day on Sunday night, we watched in Wisconsin, at Green Bay- Speaker 1: In Madison, Wisconsin. Speaker 2: In Madison Wisconsin. Speaker 1: Close to Green Bay. Speaker 2: Here. Yeah, we watched the game, the Green Bay and the Vikings game. Not going to talk about how that all went. Speaker 1: Yeah. We're the wrong Speaker 2: Those who live here where we're sitting, we won't bring that up. But anyway, it was fun and cool to say that I'm here and I get to be here with everybody watching I'm going to have such a blast. Speaker 1: The point is, we're in an RV doing our job's pretty effectively. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 1: All the land academy roles we have, and buying and selling land. So if we can do it, you can do it. Speaker 2: You can do anything. You really can. Speaker 1: If we only had to buy and sell land, we would work like half a day a week. Speaker 2: Once a week. That's it. Four hours, that's all I need Speaker 1: Today. Jill and I talk about career path alumni topic: how mailer yield is subjective the first Tuesday of every month. Everybody who has been through our career path program, and I think Jill's got another one start in October, we all get together and kind of have a mastermind group and this topic came up, and it was so... it hit me so square in the face in a good way that I want to talk about it today, because I think it's really going to help everybody. Speaker 2: Thank you. Speaker 1: Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the land investors.com online community. It's free Speaker 2: And can I say about this? Can I give this little- Speaker 1: Sure. Oh sure. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: So before you launch into Career Path, let me talk about career path for just a second. We are T minus 30 days.

Dental Marketing with Legwork Podcast Website Follow @dental_digest_podcast Instagram Follow @dr.melissa_seibert on Instagram Connect with Melissa on Linkedin Dental Digest Podcast Facebook Digital Smile Design My guest this week is Dr. Christian Coachman and we'll be talking about Digital Smile Design.  Transcript:  Speaker 2: [00:01:56] So I'm here with Christian Coach and I'm a huge fan of your work. I'm a huge fan of what you've done for digital dentistry and integrating it into dentistry. I'm a big fan of just everything you've brought. So would you just start by telling us your story? You have a bit of a unique story. [00:02:11][15.4] Speaker 1: [00:02:12] Thank you for having me here. Great pleasure to participate and share a little bit of my story. And so my story starts in Sao Paulo, Brazil, where I was born and raised, where I went to dental school at the University of Sao Paolo, where I did my dental technician course as well. And in starting in 95, I started to work as a technician for my father and then started to work with other Brazilian doctors. And I was able to grow into this position as a dental technician, creating a certain reputation in Brazil. And because of that, I was invited in 2004 to join Team Atlanta in the US was a big move for me at that time, became their head ceramicist and worked there for almost five years. And of course I was able there as well to pursue another passion of mine that is lecturing and teaching. Since they were all very well-known speakers, I was able to to learn from them and to also they opened doors for me and I started to lecture all over. And during that time as well, I started to develop the concept of digital smile design. That was basically a concept of improving the dentist technician communication, and it grew into something much bigger. And that was 2007 eight nine, when social media was growing. I was able to get that wave and really be one of the first ones to start promoting my work in social media. That took me all over the world and travel a lot. From 2009 to 2014 into 2014, the DST concept got a little bit more mature and 3D technology started to kick in and we then partnered with software company and developed the center here in Madrid. My two brothers. Then I was able to convince my brothers to join the project and moved to Madrid to start running the project here since I was traveling all over. The project grew and two years ago I moved with family here to Madrid as well. And that's exactly what I'm speaking now from my home in Madrid. [00:04:38][145.9] Speaker 2: [00:04:39] And so I've heard a little bit about your story from our mutual friend Dr. Bill Robbins, also a big fan of his work. And he said that effectively what you've created all kind of started because you were trying to find a way for the dentist to better communicate with you and to have better back and forth communication. [00:04:55][16.2] Speaker 1: [00:04:57] Mm hmm. Yeah. I remember many years ago, I was hearing I was reading somebody talking about communication outside dentistry, and they mentioned that two thirds of all the problems in human history are related to bad communication from family problems all the way to world wars, the lack of communication skills. So I was always very passionate about communication that combined with my passion for teaching. And I realized that a lot of our problems, they come from not being trained on communication strategies, dentist, technician and also anticipation. So I started to really absorb and analyze the communication process and started to develop ideas on how to improve that dentist technician communication, to improve efficiency, to understand, to pass better information and to minimize errors and to save time in the patient's mouth, basically. And then on the other side with the patient, improve communication with the patient to calibrate expectations and to create perceived value, to differentiate yourself, to increase case acceptance, to to sell better, more comprehensive dentistry, things that we are usually not trained in dental school. So the DST concept is basically focused on those two things, what I call digital dentistry and emotional dentistry. Digital dentistry based on this creation of smart systems to improve the flow of the information and emotional dentistry, everything that we can do to make patients value us more and understand the importance of what we do. Of them. [00:06:56][118.9] Speaker 2: [00:06:56] So would you start by telling us of what is digital smile design? I mean, this is one of the concepts that you lecture about globally. [00:07:03][6.5] Speaker 1: [00:07:04] So Digital Smile Design is, is this name that I created to 2009, so 13 years ago now known as DSD. As I mentioned, started in a more technical way for me. Initially, my my idea was to help me as a dental technician work with less stress and be more efficient. Right. So I started to analyze the common mistakes that I was I was doing. And even though I was working with some of the best dentists in the world, and I was a very good technician myself, I realized that we were all making some mistakes, repeating some mistakes, and DST started as a bunch of techniques and workflows to improve the way the information was coming from the patient to the dentist, dentist technician technician back to the dentist, dentist into the mouth. So I wanted to be more efficient. I wanted to waste less my time. I wanted to work less and make more money. And to be honest, so that's how it started. But I naturally started to understand that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much more efficient you become, the effort that you put to be more efficient, the patient needs to value that because at the end of the day, they need to pay for it. They need to sponsor your investment in being better. So I realized that the best way to convince people to incorporate my ideas of better systems was to help the doctors create more value towards the patient. So this is when I coined the term emotional dentistry and it became all these strategies that makes us different from the patient's perspective, makes us special from their perspective. How can you make the patient say Wow, for all the little things that you do for them are even more challenging? How can you make them say Wow even before you start the treatment? So how can you become the best spokesman of yourself, of your team? Of the amazing things that you can do for people? How can you incorporate visual communication principles, storytelling technique into the way you sell yourself? You sell your treatments, the way you create your brand, the way you make this experience be wonderful for the patient. Since patients usually don't like to go to the dentist, I realized that we had a huge opportunity to completely change the experience of going to the dentist. [00:09:53][168.6] Speaker 2: [00:09:54] And so, of course, you know, in this podcast, people are only kind of getting a brief window into some of what you teach, but how do you do that? How do you implement this emotional dentistry and how do you change patients expectations and how do you communicate with patients to get them to say, wow. [00:10:10][16.1] Speaker 1: [00:10:11] So, of course, this is this is exactly the main topic of what we teach on the course, right? So we divide the concept into two, five steps design, plan, present, perform and lead. So how to use technology to understand better the link between the face and the smile and avoid mistakes? And then how do you make the patient value that? How do you use technology and communication systems to take advantage of collective intelligence, cloud dentistry and make better decisions for the patient? So how can you use technology to make better decisions every single day for every single patient? How do you use technology, storytelling and visual communication to improve the way you present the plan, the way you make the patient embrace the plan, the way you make the patient change their priorities, the way you make the patient, make dentistry priority number one. So that's number three. Number four, how to use technology and teamwork to improve the execution of dentistry in a more streamlined way, in a more predictable way. Delivering delivering outcomes that are more similar to the initial projects that you offer to the to the patient. So how do you bring this close, this gap between what you show at the beginning and what you deliver at the end of the treatment by using technology and what we call guided dentistry and digital quality control. And at the end, how do you become a better leader? Because the magic or the. Happens if you have a great team. How do you build your dream team as a dentist? To make this whole magic happen? So these are the five pillars of the content that we share on our courses. Design better smiles, plan better your cases present and sell better your treatments, execute with more precision efficiency and become a better leader. Empower your team. So this is basically the DST concept. [00:12:25][133.8] Speaker 2: [00:12:26] What are some of the technologies that you're using to design these smiles? I mean, would you give us practical examples of what you're doing? [00:12:32][6.0] Speaker 1: [00:12:32] So of course that to design, to deliver better smiles to our patients, we need to follow up. We need to follow these steps. So the first the first step is to rethink the way we gather the information. What technologies can we use to understand better the human being sitting in front of us? So of course using scanners, you know, using CBC DS, but using videography, using all kinds of new technologies that can understand better. The problems of the patient sitting in front of us and of course, also fascinate the patient. So so these two things come together on the floor, right? It's being more efficient, delivering better care, and at the same time, simultaneously fascinating the patient doing each one of these steps, you know. So the first step is acquiring better data, using all the technologies that are available today that are usually underutilized by most doctors. So we teach doctors about the technologies available. And more important is not only about buying these technologies, but is about knowing how to take full advantage of these technologies so you get the return on your investment. Then the second step is how do you use technology to make better decisions? And that is utilizing simple cloud based chat systems and info sharing systems, you know, data sharing. So you can pick the brains of people that can help them make better decisions. So this is what we call cloud dentistry, asynchronous communication and collective intelligence, and using simple platforms that are available, many of them for free. Incorporating this in your daily routine to constantly be uploading your patients in the cloud and allowing the team to brainstorm in an a synchronous way so you don't waste your time. So that's number two. Number three is utilizing 3D software to simulate your ideas. So test driving your ideas before touching the patient. This is a big thing for us. You know, it's like the flight simulator that allows pilots to make mistakes virtually before they kill people for real. So we say you need to use 3D technology not to execute the treatment, but to test drive the treatment before you execute. So simulate your ideas. Make sure you are having the best ideas, compare ideas and use 3D technology to understand better the pros and cons of each one of the options that you are imagining for your patient. I say make mistakes in the computer to avoid mistakes in the mouth. Right. So this is the third pillar of how technology can help us that. The fourth pillar is patient education, patient motivation, expectation, calibration, but also creating excitement. So that means that we we use visual communication tools, digital technology to present better in a much more exciting way. You know, usually the way then does of presenting treatments are kind of boring, kind of nothing special, and we reinvent completely the way we present treatment plans. I usually tell them, General, you need to become the Steve Jobs of your treatment plan the same way Steve Jobs was presenting his first iPhone. You know, watch that video. And in 5 minutes, he was able to move the whole world into believing and batty on that broad project. Right. So when you build a nice treatment plan, you need to use all these strategies to present this treatment plan if you want to really differentiate yourself. So that is pillar number four. And then pillar number five is the treatment itself. And this is when we use 3D software's and printing technology to perform what we call guided dentistry. What I see is that in the near future there will be very few free hand procedures in dentistry. Everything is going to be guided and is very obvious why this is going to happen. You know, first, because patients love the idea of guided them to three. It's a much better way to sell a procedure. They feel safer. You can tell amazing stories about why guided dentistry diminishes the risks of errors and so on. So it's a great story. It's great for your business and it's of course also great for dentistry because you create more predictable results. So we talk about Guide to Dentistry and how to use digital quality control with 3D softwares. And then the final point is leadership and team building. And then we bring smart platforms from the business world on how to incorporate this into your clinic, to analyze the the vibe of your office, how your staff is actually evaluating your work and your leadership, and how pleasant it is to work in your office. And how can you create and transform your office into the best place to be working and and really make people see that they have a future, they have a career inside your your project. [00:18:05][333.2] Speaker 2: [00:18:07] So many, Dennis, are just using stone models mounted on articulation and then wax to present treatment plans. And this can be incredibly problematic if you're trying to convince a patient of a 30 or $40,000 treatment plan, wax just doesn't translate to the tangible outcome to the patient. You know, and this is primarily what you teach. Would you tell us more about why this way of presenting a treatment plan can be flawed? [00:18:28][21.5] Speaker 1: [00:18:29] The first thing you know, I did a test. You know, in my old days when I was a dental technician, I showed to a patient a beautiful, properly done wax up. And then I showed the patient a horrible, ugly wax and they had no clue which one was the right one and which one was wrong. So patients don't understand waxes, and even when they shake their hands and they say, I got it, they didn't. They just don't understand. By the way, patients usually don't understand most of the things that dentists are saying to them. We have this tendency to speak as a dentist, to speak, you know, we were trained to talk about dentistry to other dentists, and then we kind of talk to patients in a similar way. And we believe they are they understood, you know, they're shaking their hands because they are under pressure. They're they don't want to you know, he's the doctor. I need to pretend that I'm understanding or whatever. So we need to change completely. You know, we need to study a little bit human behavior and communication strategies. The key for me is to engage emotionally and communicate visually. So engaging emotionally means that, you know, you train, you practice communication and listen, you picking the right words to connect with people. And this has nothing to do with dentistry, right? We know people that are much better with that, other people that are not that good. So you need to practice that. Somebody, the person in your office that is the one presenting treatments needs to understand how to engage emotionally through communication. The other thing is visual communication, meaning that you need to explain things visually and we need to use what we have. The best tools that we have and the best tools we have nowadays is 3D technology. And it's just interesting to see that the few doctors that are using 3D technology, they're only using after they resold the treatment. So they sell the treatment and then they're going to use 3D technology to do whatever they want doing the treatment. And I'm telling people this is not smart because at the moment we need more help, is not on the treatment. Execution is on the treatment building and the treatment selling. Making the plan and convincing somebody to pay for the plan. These are the two most challenging moments in dentistry, right? And nobody talks about it or very few people talk about it. So we focus on that moment, how to build the best plan and how to communicate that plan, how to convince the patient to invest in that plan. These are the two key moments to have a great business in dentistry. [00:21:26][177.2] Speaker 2: [00:21:27] When you're actually bringing those wax hopes to the patients are the, you know, the digital sculpting, what you've done, are you showing them screenshots of what you've done or are you actually having them sit there in front of the software with you and walking them through and letting the patient make suggestions and then making adjustments accordingly? [00:21:44][16.5] Speaker 1: [00:21:45] So the way we present the plan, we actually divide the presentation in three moments. We call it the the emotional phase, the problem phase and the solution phase. So this is how we structure the way we present the treatment plan. By the way, this is the way I structure any type of communication in my life, even outside dentistry. Connecting emotionally, then. Explaining. That there is a problem somewhere and you can you can help with the solution and then explaining the plan and the solution. Right. So you need to first engage emotionally with the patient or make the patient engage emotionally with the treatment. That's the first step to make people change priorities. People are coming to you. And dentistry is one of the lowest priorities in their life. They're going to try to find any excuse not to invest on what you are about to present. So we need to know that we have a client that is there trying not to pay for what we going to present. So the only way to make people change priorities is to understand that we humans, even though we think we are rational beings, we are actually much more emotional. So the first step is to gain emotional credit, to even start any conversation. If you don't gain emotional credit, people will not listen to you. Then after you gain emotional credits, you need to then emphasize the problems, emphasize the findings before you explain solutions. This is another common mistake. Since we know the problem and we know the solution, we tend to jump the problem and we explain the solution. That's what you need. Basic vision. You need this. And when we say you need this, we are not allowing the patient to value that solution because they don't understand the problem. So they they know it's very hard to value a solution if you don't understand the problem. So the step number two is to deep dove into the problem journey as we call. And for that problem journey, we use the technology. So we we bring our scanners. We open the scanners in front of the patient. We connect the scanner to a huge TV so they can see everything very big. And with touch screen, we can show in 3D everything that we found. We show the CBCS, we show the face, we show the videos, the images, the x rays. But we connect all these visuals in a very dynamic way to give a complete list of everything that we were able to find as an issue or a possible issue or something that can be improved. So now after they they they went through the emotional journey first. And the emotional journey that we didn't mention is basically what we call the emotional smile test drive, where we do the facial scans, the infrared scans, and then we do the 3D design, we print this design and we place it in the mouth. And without saying anything, we record the before and the after and we present this. So we use 3D software and printing technology to generate the emotional smile test. Right after those ten, the ten minute, 50 minute experience, we go into the problem journey, we use the scanners, the CBCS, the videos, the images, etc. and we go through this deep, dove into all of the issues that we found. And then only after that we get into the treatment presentation. So now that you have, you know, where you want to be with the smile test, right? You know, the problems that you have with this journey, this digital journey through your issues. Now you can validate the plan. And this is the plan that we want to explain to you at that point. What we do is that the lab will create because the lab has the software, the dentist doesn't have the software. So the lab creates a presentation for the dentist with great maps, screenshots and videos from the software and organizes into a storyline. So the dentist can then present this in 3D as if they had the software without having to have the song. [00:26:04][258.7] Speaker 2: [00:26:04] I love that and I think what you've talked about with actually taking time to present the problem can't be emphasized enough. I'm very much so guilty when I'm presenting treatment plans of just immediately jump to this is what we're going to do for you. This is what's involved in this. And, you know, it's no wonder that at times I'm failing to have a little bit of buy in from the patients where perhaps at that point they're just defaulting. To my expertize, I'm sure I'll venture to say my treatment acceptance is reasonable. I'm not getting a considerable number of people declining treatment, but yet at the same time, how powerful would it be to really spend that time investing with the patient and enumerating for them what the problem list is. [00:26:41][36.3] Speaker 1: [00:26:41] Is so many ways, you know, because we are not dentists are usually not focusing on that because we were trained to focus on the treatment itself. You know, we know that at the end of the day, we need to deliver good quality care. And that is of course the most important part. So we are usually driven to put energy on that, the clinical execution, so we don't take much care of building the plan and selling the plan. We were not trained. We we don't have the natural skills for that. So this is why, you know, it's so important to focus on that if you are already and I always say that if you are already a good clinician, you're ready to come to a DC course and learn how to make the magic happen. [00:27:25][43.4] Speaker 2: [00:27:25] So why are you using. Videography when you're gathering data, that's a bit unique. [00:27:30][4.1] Speaker 1: [00:27:31] Yeah, this is something that we also brought to to restorative dentistry is amazing today to realize it until ten years ago, nobody was doing videos, you know, for us is a mandatory piece of information because the beauty of the smile comes from the movement. A beautiful smile is a beautiful smile in the real life. In real life is moving. You know, you don't want to look just good on a static photo. You want to look good in real life. So we need to analyze faces. We need to analyze the motion of the face. We need to analyze the motion of the lips. We need to analyze the motion between the teeth and the lips. So the only way to do this is through video. Video also captures the patient's emotions. The video captures the patient explaining what they like and what they don't like. Video allows you to understand a little bit of the character of that human being. The video allows you to also understand phonetics, understand the way that job movement is happening so you can see function from a different perspective. So I don't know, in like a one minute video, you can have so much information. And besides that, every second of a video brings an average of 30 photos. There's 30 photos inside every second, all of you. So it means that when you make a one minute video, you have hundreds of photos that you can pause this video in all of these moments and make a print screen. You make a screenshot of that and create a whole documentation out of the video. So for us is mandatory. All the dentists that work with us as part of the basic initial documentation, the video of their face, the patient's face in this interview, the video of this interview, this interaction is a mandatory piece of documentation for us. [00:29:21][110.8] Speaker 2: [00:29:22] And not only that, but certain critical measurements that are really important for small design, such as incisal display or how much gingiva they show when emoting. You really can't gather in a photo or just even chair side because oftentimes it's very artificial. How often, when you're asked to smile, are you truly giving your true smile? Whereas in videography you can actually see them emoting. You can see how much ginger is displayed. [00:29:43][21.5] Speaker 1: [00:29:44] Exactly. You know, for example, you mentioned the rest position, the real rest position, understanding the relationship between the wrist position of the upper lip and display on the teeth. We know how important this initial analysis is for treatment, planning, for decision making. Right. And many times when you ask the patient to rest and you take a picture, you know, the patient moved a little bit the lip, and then you have that picture and you think that is the best position. So I don't like to analyze the lip rest position in photos. I always analyze the lip rest position in the view and I move slowly. Video until I can capture the moment where I can see the muscles completely at rest. You can see that on the video, and then you pause and you can make a prescreen and say, okay, this is my real rest position. The same thing with the full smile. Another information that we know is key, you know, and you and me as fans of Bill Robbins in his book Global Diagnosis. It's the whole book. It's all about these two pictures. It's like the starting point comes from these two pictures. And if you capture these two moments wrong, you're going to make wrong decision. So when you ask the patient to actually give you a false smile and you click your picture, usually the patient is not getting your full smile, right? So the patient can usually show around 30% more of gum than what they show on that picture. So it's not a good starting point in the video. On the other hand, if you play the video you have, if you're recording the video, the patient after a few seconds forgot about the video. You know, you see something funny, they're interacting with you, they laugh. And you captured that moment when the patient really forgets about the video, loser loses it up and moves the leg all the way to the top. And you can then see that the exact lip designed, the way the lip moves and how much exposure you really have on that patient. [00:31:48][124.0] Speaker 2: [00:31:49] What are your thoughts on face photos? Why might this not be a very accurate way to capture data when we have other tools available? [00:31:56][6.5] Speaker 1: [00:31:57] And this is a good point. You know, I mean, I've been for 14 years, I've been bringing topics into my lectures that many times. You know, people wanted to to kill me. You know, I remember when I ten years ago, I said that the iPhone would become one of one of our major meditation tools, you know, and I posted it on Facebook and and people wanted to kill me, you know, so many bad comments that you're crazy. You shouldn't say that. And nowadays everybody uses. You know, the way, you know, we were the first ones to talk about a monolithic esthetic restorations with high quality. And for many years, people were saying this is impossible, and now everybody's doing it. And the other the other topic, you know, byte registrations with scanners that we were talking about. But registrations will disappear, you know, because you're going to scan the bytes and you're going to remove all the distortions of byte registrations and mounting models on that particular ITRs with that, all the mistakes that we did for decades, you know. So and nowadays everybody's registering by the scanners. And the other topic that for many, many years people would go crazy would be this is the is the Facebook, right? Because I've been telling people since 2014 that the Facebook is completely useless and it is completely useless. There's absolutely no reason. Not even one reason for that is to do a Facebook. If they work with the lab that understands CAD software, if your lab understands CAD software, all you need is an iPhone photo of the face and an integral scan. So if you have facial photos in an inch or scan, you can do a much better job on the software than trying to transfer a Facebook to an articulator. So this is it's pretty young people. Of course, people have a hard time accepting things that they usually don't even want to think about it because it's something new and they fight against the new. But I was able to convince all the major presidents that I have a good relationship. And nowadays it's a common sense. You don't need Facebook's. [00:34:14][137.4] Speaker 2: [00:34:19] You guys, believe it or not, ratings on the Apple Podcast app actually really matter. So if you benefit from this podcast, could you please be sure it's liberating and subscribe? And as always, send me direct message and podcast Instagram, which is Don't buy this podcast. All right. I'll see you next week. [00:34:19][0.0] [1918.5]

Shannon Westin and Virginia Sun discuss the JCO article "Patient-Reported Outcome-Based Symptom Management Versus Usual Care After Lung Cancer Surgery: A Multicenter Randomized Controlled Trial"   TRANSCRIPT Speaker 1: The guest on this podcast episode has no disclosures to declare. Dr. Shannon Westin: Hello everyone. This is Dr. Shannon Westin, your JCO Social Media Editor here with another episode of Journal Clinical of Oncology After Hours Podcast. So excited to bring you in depth discussion on some of the amazing studies and manuscripts that have been published in the JCO. I am joined today by Dr. Virginia Sun, who's Associate Professor in the Division of Nursing Research and Education and the Department of Population Sciences Education at City of Hope. Dr. Shannon Westin: She has 17 years experiences as an oncology nurse, four years experience as a nurse practitioner, before becoming a full-time nurse scientist. And her research program is meant to develop and test interventions to improve patient and family-centered care and outcomes, specifically on cancer surgery and cancer survivorship populations. And what better person to have with us today as we're discussing the article, Patient Reported Outcome Based Symptom Management Versus Usual Care After Lung Cancer Surgery, a multi-center randomized control trial by Dr. Dye and colleagues. So welcome, Dr. Sun. So excited to chat with you today. Dr. Virginia Sun: Thank you so much for the opportunity to be here. Dr. Shannon Westin: So let's get right into it. I think this article caught several of the editors' attention, because it really is an exciting [inaudible 00:01:42] into how we might take care of patients after surgery. And as a surgeon myself, I was completely intrigued so I can't wait to get your perspective. So let's start off first, the author's note that patients with lung cancer have a high symptom burden after surgery, as a non lung cancer expert, can you walk those of us through a typical post op course and some of the issues that might be experienced by these patients? Dr. Virginia Sun: Sure. So, I think symptoms is something that probably all of our patients who just underwent surgery experience. But for our patients with lung cancer, some of the common symptoms would include pain. I think pain is one of those universal symptoms that many of our patients experience after a procedure. But particularly for this population, they would also experience shortness of breath, of course, because anatomically there were certain parts of their lung that were removed as part of the procedure. Dr. Virginia Sun: Cough is something that they would experience regularly as well. And I think sleep disturbance is one of those general symptoms that all of our patients may experience. And also just emotionally, the anxiety perhaps, and the stress may continue probably in the immediate post op timeframe when they just transition home. And then also the functional decline, also happening along with the fatigue. Many of our patients, although we get them up and out of bed as soon as possible, as a nurse, I know that's generally sort of our responsibility in the post-op recovery period. Certainly fatigue and the functional decline is something that our patients will experience in this population as well. Dr. Shannon Westin: Certainly many of those are universal across what we see in patients in the postoperative period. But I know personally, and I'm sure you could speak to this as well, we're busy post op, right? Especially whether you're rounding in the hospital, or you're seeing patients in post op in the clinic, I don't know how much we really get super deep dive into a lot of these symptoms. So I think that's what makes this work so important. So I'll just have you, if you could, briefly discuss this study design that was performed by Dr. Dye, and Dr. She, and their colleagues. Dr. Virginia Sun: Sure. So the intervention is really patient report outcome based symptom management. And this is done by way of alerts and completion of the MD Anderson Symptom Inventory, which is very well known symptom inventory tool well validated within this population as well. And also when patients share that information after surgery, and while they're recovering in the hospital, that will prompt an alert. So there were predetermined thresholds by way of the symptom score. So if a patient on the trial that reported a four to 10, which is generally a moderate to severe intensity for a symptom, and that will trigger an alert to the surgeon and the surgical team for management purposes. Dr. Virginia Sun: Now, in terms of this trial, the investigators chose several very relevant symptoms to focus on for this population to assess. And that would include pain, fatigue, cough, shortness of breath, and sleep disturbance, although the MD Anderson's Symptom Inventory does cover more of symptoms and beyond those as well. And in addition, I think, to the surgeons in response to the alerts, there were also other management, I think, that were triggered from the alert itself. So there may have been other services that were triggered as part of the intervention. But the first line of response to the alert were from the surgeons for this particular trial. Dr. Virginia Sun: So the patients after they were discharged home continued to provide, I believe, twice weekly symptom information by way of completing the MD Anderson Symptom Inventory. These are all done electronically, and then the alerts I think were continued. And this was done up to four weeks post discharge. And they also did include on data that's collected in the pre-op setting, I think, one baseline, and then after post-op there were several data collection time points. In the hospitalization period I believe it was a daily symptom report, and then after they return home in the first four weeks, it's I think twice a week. Dr. Shannon Westin: I think it's perfect to have a way to automatically alert the surgeon and their team. Because again if we just don't have time to engage on that level with the patients on.... Can you imagine every day your team having to call? Just the amount of operationalizing that that would take, it would just be bonkers. And so I love this because I'm already kind of thinking tick, tick, tick in my mind, "Okay, how would I incorporate this to the patients of mine that are in the postop setting?" So tell us, should I do that? What are the benefits of incorporating patient reported outcomes into the post op care? And then of course, were there any negatives to the strategy? Dr. Virginia Sun: Sure. I think we have quite a bit of evidence now by way of patient report outcomes guided management. This was done in many different settings, I think primarily starting in the chemotherapy setting, but now more and more in the surgery population as well. And so I think first and foremost, it's a great way to make care more patient centered, right? Everything is driven by the patient's needs. And everyone may be presenting different symptoms at the same time, even though there are common symptoms that we may see from patients with lung cancer after surgery. But it makes it really personalized and relevant to each of the individual patients. Dr. Virginia Sun: Another way I think about it is sort of the proactive versus reactive approach of postoperative care. In most settings, perhaps, I don't want to say all, but certainly in most settings our approach to postoperative management, while the patients are at home and in the community, I think are more largely reactive. So most of the time we may... We have information that we give to patients, "If you are having any symptoms, or you're meeting any of these criteria where you have a fever or anything like that, please call us." And many institutions may have a phone number that patients can contact during business hours or after hours. Dr. Virginia Sun: But this approach gives patient an opportunity and places to contact us when they're experiencing challenges. But it relies on the patients, right? So it's still the patients who need to remember that, "Oh, I need to call when I have these things." In most situations unfortunately, it may be a little too late. We may get a phone call from patients or families when it's kind of at a crisis mode and we need to bring them in or they need to be you readmitted. So I think the patient reported outcomes approach to me is more of a proactive way. Dr. Virginia Sun: The patients share their information with us at certain time points, during the perioperative setting or postoperative setting. And the healthcare team and oncology team, the surgical team, somebody on that team is the one who is monitoring or getting the alerts from this team, and then we proactively contact the patients to perhaps assess and manage. So I think another way that I kind of tend to look at it is that, the responsibility is really on the healthcare team to sort of act on the patient's information rather than sort of more of the reactive approach, where we wait for patients to call us when they're having pain issues, when they're having sleep disturbance issues, or shortness of breath issues. By that, it kind of makes also for a more patient centered approach too that patients have a way communicate with us and they know that someone is on the other end that will be reacting. Dr. Shannon Westin: Well, and I think some of the symptoms that you're covering, I feel like patients will call for, "Oh, gosh, I'm really short of breath, or my pain is uncontrolled." People feel really comfortable with that. But some of the other things like, "Well, I'm not sleeping that well," or some of the other things that could be precautious to a worse issue, exactly to your point, they may not call early on, and then you get behind the eight ball and you're in a really serious situation. Dr. Shannon Westin: So I do. I like this and I like that they know, "Okay, there's someone on the other end of this. I'm not just shouting my issues out into the ether. Someone is going to hear this and respond." And then conversely, the care team is prepared. They know, "Okay, these are coming in and these are the triggers. These are the thresholds at which we're going to mobilize what. Okay, we're going to get pulmonology involved for this, so we're going to bring the patient into clinic to have them look at a wound," or whatever. I think to me, this makes so much sense. Do you see any negative? How's the burden on the patient, I guess, is one obvious question. Dr. Virginia Sun: From this trial, we see that the investigators did assess and try to examine sort of the burden on both the patients, and I believe the surgical team as well. And the patients were very favorable in their response in terms of the system, because it's another way for them to communicate with the care team. Especially for our surgery patients who were before surgery at home, right? There may be had been some visits, but they're mainly out of the community, and in the home setting. And then of course, when they're discharged after. Dr. Virginia Sun: So one of the things I think we should think about is, this is of course.... And this is a great study but it's done in, I would think, a different healthcare system. So this is a study out of China. And so is it replicable, perhaps, within the United States Healthcare System, where there may be differences in terms of when we get patients into the OR versus sort of the care that's provided after. And who will be monitoring this information? It's great to see that the surgeons, and I think the data from this trial shows that on average, it took them three minutes to manage some of the symptom alerts, which is great. Three minutes, it's actually really, really amazingly quick, right? Dr. Shannon Westin: That's incredible for that. Dr. Virginia Sun: I know. Dr. Shannon Westin: Well, which Is great. Dr. Virginia Sun: But is it possible for example, within a healthcare system in the United States? And of course within the United States different healthcare systems have different systems too. And so it's identifying who are the people that are going to be receiving this information, and then are there resources for them to be able to react in a timely fashion? And then communication processes in place with the surgeon and the surgical team, if there is a need. Because I think that would be helpful in terms of these types of information, these types of trials, being helpful for surgeons in surgical teams to make decisions about care. Should we be bringing the patient in a little bit earlier, for example, for the first post-op visit or do we need to see them a little bit more often? Dr. Virginia Sun: The other thing I think that would be very important for us to think about, is the digital health and the digital technology disparities. Technology is great. Being able to capture symptoms in a remote fashion electronically and in a relatively quick fashion is great. But we also, I think, need to be mindful of the fact that, what is the comfort in terms of using these kind of programs and devices, and does everyone have access to this? During the pandemic we've heard a lot about Telehealth. We use Telehealth quite often. And Telehealth has great potential. But Telehealth and digital health can also create disparities. And so, I think we just need to be mindful of the population. And perhaps be mindful of the fact that not all patients and families will come with the knowledge in relation to using mobile applications, or technology based programs. And just have those support systems in place, so that we can make things at equitable, right? And that everyone will be able to access these kind of systems to communicate with their surgical team. Dr. Shannon Westin: That's a great point. And I could see something around the fact that for the patient population that maybe doesn't have the devices necessary, needing to kind of lend out devices to the patients, and make sure that the nursing staff or medical assistance can counsel the patients. Then they should walk them through the process. So yeah, I could see where that would be a place where making sure that it was generalizable to the population here and equitable will be essential. The other thing, and this may be completely off base is, for us and I think for you all as well, we use quite a bit of enhanced recovery. We have a pretty elaborate enhanced recovery program request. Really all of our surgical services. And I noticed that wasn't something that was mentioned in this particular article. I don't know if that's something that they were doing. Do you think that that would have an impact in any way on these findings, or if there's a way to incorporate this into some type of enhanced recovery pathway? Dr. Virginia Sun: I think definitely. Perhaps the more long-term, if there is a need to do more long-term remote monitoring when patients are out in the community, or more frequent timeframes in terms of follow up. A lot of this work can also be thinking about what does the data mean? And how can this data not only drive sort of the symptom management piece, but is there a way for us to utilize this data perhaps at the very beginning, as part of that ERAS program, right? In terms of being able to identify those who may need a little bit more communication, or monitoring after they're discharged home. So I don't see this as replacing the ERAS program, I see it as something that could potentially enhance, and perhaps really be able to bring in that program and that approach where we are able to see what's happening to our patients when they're in the community, or at home while they're recovering. So I see it as an augmenting rather than a replacement, if you will. Dr. Shannon Westin: Well, and I think that's really how enhanced recovery has been. I feel like when we first started, we had some of the basics and then we added on, "Okay, let's reduce opioids and let's send less opiates home. And okay, we're going to inject the incision." So I feel like that's what's great about that pathway is you can keep kind of adding to it. And I guess that leads to my final question. I can't believe how quickly time has passed. This discussion went fun. What do you think ultimately this study is going to mean for clinical practice? Do you think this is ready for Prime Time or kind of what are next steps for us here in the states, or our colleagues in Europe? Is this something that we can start doing? Dr. Virginia Sun: Sure. Great question. So I think definitely there's pretty strong evidence now within oncology care that remote monitoring, whether it's symptoms and other approaches, definitely has a benefit. Our patients appreciate the opportunity to communicate with their care team this way. And it's beneficial for the clinical team as well to understand what's happening to our patients out in the communities, and especially for surgery patients, when they're recovering. In terms of whether it's ready for Prime Time, I think we definitely need to maybe replicate a trial like this within the United States or a European healthcare system, and really be able to understand who are the key stakeholders in this process, right? The patients, the surgeons, the surgical team, or nurses, or other team members that are going to either be monitoring this data or benefit from the data that's being collected from patients in terms of guiding the clinical care. Dr. Virginia Sun: I think it would be important to understand the processes a little bit better in terms of who's responding, and then what happened during these encounters? For example. What are the things that we're hearing from patients? So that within a system or within an institution, we can understand what are the resources needed to have a program like this take place, but also understand more from the patient and the surgeon, surgical team perspective, in terms of how this could benefit care. Dr. Virginia Sun: And then also I think the other piece, I think would be important for us to think about is, beyond symptom monitoring, are there other, perhaps, information that would be worthwhile to remote monitor or collect from patients? For example, for surgical population, perhaps functional recovery is something that is quite important. And so is there some other data that we could incorporate beyond sort of the subjective reports? Which are very important, but is there a way perhaps to think about subjective and objective measures combined together? And really be able to understand what it means in terms of the data that we're collecting. Dr. Virginia Sun: And then also, what types of symptoms data, for example, and other kinds of data that we absolutely should collect versus everything under the sun, right? That is going to be most helpful in terms of informing care for our patients. This is because by way of thinking about burden, we can collect data. I think the technology's there to collect data as much as possible, but how we use it and what does that data mean, we still need to understand a lot of that work. And so I think bottom line, no doubt, this is something that's beneficial from the patient's perspective, and the cancer care delivery surgical team perspective as well. But understanding a little bit more about the stakeholders' perspectives and the details of the care, I think, will make it much more efficient and more successful, perhaps, in terms of implementing into standard of care. Dr. Shannon Westin: Great. Wow. Well, thank you so much. This was an awesome discussion and I know our listeners will be intrigued and hopefully are planning some trials of their own to explore these patient reported outcomes. So, listeners, thank you so much again for tuning in to JCO After Hours, and we will see you again next time. Speaker 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.  

In the second part of this Oncology, Etc. episode Drs. Patrick Loehrer (Indiana University) and David Johnson (University of Texas) continue their conversation with Dr. Susan Desmond-Hellmann, exploring the prominent leadership roles she held, from first female Chancellor at UCSF to CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and member of Facebook's Board of Directors. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts | Additional resources: education.asco.org | Contact Us Air Date: 11/18/21   TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This is not a substitute for medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. PAT LOEHRER: Hi, Everybody. I'm Pat Loehrer. I'm director of the Centers of Global Health at Indiana University, Melvin and Bren Simon Comprehensive Cancer Center. DAVE JOHNSON: And I'm Dave Johnson. I'm Professor of Medicine here at UT Southwestern Medical School in Dallas, Texas. So Pat, we're back for another episode of the award winning "Oncology Et Cetera." PAT LOEHRER: Just seems like last month we were here time, you know? Time just flies. DAVE JOHNSON: Exactly. Before we get started, you were telling me about an interesting book you were reading-- something about friends or something. Can you elaborate? PAT LOEHRER: Sure, sure, yeah. This book I picked up-- actually, my wife picked it up. It's called First Friends. It's written by Gary Ginsburg. It's a really interesting book. It was-- basically talks about-- it probably has about eight or nine presidents but the importance of having a friend that guides him. And these were people that were, in many ways, unelected people that were close to the presidents that helped change the face of what we see today, and some of them are stories of really good friends and some of them are, I think, opportunistic friends. But it gives you a background of people like Madison and Lincoln and Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson. It's actually a fun read. DAVE JOHNSON: I'll definitely put it on my reading list. It sounds like a pretty exciting one. Well, speaking of influential people, we're really excited to jump back into our interview with Dr. Helman. In our last episode, we covered her early life and career, her work in Uganda, her views on global oncology, and her experiences in private practice and industry. In the next half of our interview, we'll learn more about her incredible career and her multiple leadership roles. Let's start by hearing about her time as chancellor of UCSF. PAT LOEHRER: Let me transition a little bit. What I'd like to do is talk a little bit about your leadership. One Of the next big roles you had, you became chancellor at UCSF, correct? SPEAKER 2: Mm-hm. PAT LOEHRER: And so as Dave said, I think you were the first woman in that role. SPEAKER 2: I was. PAT LOEHRER: You were a groundbreaker from that capacity. So now instead of working for people-- obviously, I understand that there's people you work for when you're chancellor too, but tell a little bit about that transition from industry back into academics and how that felt in the role of being a leader and then maybe the responsibility of being the first female chancellor. SPEAKER 2: There were parts of being the chancellor at UCSF, I would say most parts of it, that I just thought were fantastic. I loved being back at a hospital and clinics. Just the way the hospital and clinical enterprise at UCSF works, the chancellor is the board. And so once a month, you'd have neurology or cardiology come and tell you about what had happened, quality control, things that had gone on and I would have done that all day long. I mean, it was just so interesting. It was so important to run a great clinical enterprise that getting back closer to patients and medicine I thought was fantastic. The other thing was the educational enterprise, and UCSF, as you know, has medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, nursing. I always tell people, no undergraduates, no English majors, no marching band. And the other chancellors reminded me, no athletic director, which apparently is a very good thing. So UCSF is a very special and unusual place. And I loved the science. I would show up at research seminars and things like that as often as I could. So there were so many parts of being at UCSF that I thought were just off the charts great. The hardest thing about being at UCSF-- being the first female chancellor, I think, was challenging but not in ways that you might expect. I was used to being a woman leader in medicine and biotech, which was unusual. So being the only woman in the room, being the first, wasn't new to me. But the thing that was hard on our family was there are roles for the spouse of the chancellor that fit more neatly into more of a classic female role, hosting things. There was a tea party for the wives of the faculty that the wife of the chancellor typically had. And for some reason, Nick didn't think that that suited him. We sort of laughed about that. DAVE JOHNSON: He can't make tea? SPEAKER 2: He can't make tea to save his life. And he's a strong introvert, which made it worse. I will tell you, some of the under-recognized, underreported people in life are spouses of chancellors and presidents of universities. And talk about unpaid labor-- my goodness! And so we sort of struggled with how did Nick show up, what did that look like. Because we didn't have any role models for what that looked like. I still laugh that Bill Clinton said he would be First Laddie. So when you have a pattern recognition, life is easier. And then being one of 10 chancellors at the UC system, I struggled a little bit with the UC Regents just because it felt-- I became chancellor in 2009, and we had some fiscal realities that we were dealing with. And the pace of the UC Regents and the format of the UC Regents, I actually made a proposal for UCSF to kind of break off from the other 9. And that was not well-received, got me in the newspaper. And I did not do that again. People saw it as disloyal and not very smart. But all in all, I thought then and think now that our public universities are absolutely-- they're treasures in America. And I was really proud to be a part of it and hope that I had made a contribution. DAVE JOHNSON: Speaking of leadership, what was it like to be CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation? What caused you to step away from chancellor to philanthropy? PAT LOEHRER: It's not a step down. It's not a step down, basically. DAVE JOHNSON: It is not a step down. SPEAKER 2: So I would say a couple of things. First of all, Bill and Melinda pushed me hard to take the job. I was not looking to change. My husband worked at the Gates Foundation for a couple of years on HIV. So they knew us, and they knew Nick better than me. But they knew both of us. We awarded Melinda the University medal at UCSF. And to my great surprise and happiness, she accepted and came. I later think that she was using that as a reason to talk to me about the CEO job, but she got a twofer. And I was really compelled by the mission. Who wouldn't be? I was really compelled by the mission and the chance to get back into global health after the experience I had had in Uganda. But I'll tell you, it is the ambition of the Gate Foundation, the scope of the Gates Foundation, the resources, and the need to get something done. I tell you, it is hard work. It is really hard work-- from China to India to all of the continent of Africa and then US education. Throw that in on top of things. So I was thrilled to be a part of driving the agenda and the mission. Some really talented people who are working very hard at the Gates Foundation-- I was surprised, especially on US education, with the amount of pushback. And I worked really hard to be successful at working with Bill, who's known as a tough character and lived up to that mutation. DAVE JOHNSON: Good to know, just in case he calls Pat or me. PAT LOEHRER: Yeah, yeah, I'm not going to get a medal at UCSF either. So that's a-- DAVE JOHNSON: You never know, Pat. PAT LOEHRER: It's a non-starter. And this may not apply to you, but there's a lot of maybe disproportionate number of women who feel they suffer from this imposter syndrome. To be honest, Dave and I have talked about that. We both feel in that syndrome too. But along the way, I mean, if you think about growing up in Reno, Nevada, and suddenly now being a chancellor and head of the Gates Foundation, the National Academy of Science, was there ever this sense of the, wait a minute, you know, what's going on? Is this real? SPEAKER 2: For me, there has always been that sense. There has always been that sense, and I look at it as I hope there always will be that sense-- that the kind of need to demonstrate your value. And there's a part of the imposter syndrome that is humility and not overestimating what you can do. And so on my best days, I think that leads me to say I've got to work with really terrific people. My job is to bring out the best in others. If I lead, it's because there's a great thing we're going to accomplish, and I can help people see where we're going together. And so I definitely have had imposter syndrome. But the one thing that I probably overused and kind of grew to like too much was the thing of people underestimating me and then proving them wrong. That gets a little wearying after a while. It's like, OK, we're going to waste some time while you decide whether I'm worthy or whether I can do this. And let's not waste that time. Why don't you assign to me-- give me some confidence, and I'll live up to that. And I mentioned Art Levinson was my boss for most of the time I was at Genentech. And he had no time for imposter syndrome. He was like, look, how many promotions do you have to get before you think, OK, I can get this done? He thought that was sort of-- he just didn't have time for it. We have things to do, and he had jobs to get done. And one of the things I loved about him is he would constantly push me to say, you're capable of more than you think you are, which I think is the sign of a fantastic manager, which he was and is. And so I've tried to push myself to do that. And the thing is, like, you can do this. Come to me for help. We'll make sure you succeed, but don't underestimate yourself. And I think that's a consequence of imposter syndrome is both wasting time proving yourself and not taking on something that you think, actually, let me give that a try and stack the deck in favor of succeeding. And so I think that's the thing that-- there's a certain fierceness that I've always had that I like about myself that, like, of course we will succeed. Failure is not an option. Of course we will succeed. And I think that comes from working on things that I value a lot and care about a lot. PAT LOEHRER: You have been on a number of different boards, including Pfizer as well as Facebook. And in that capacity, you've seen a lot of leaders. Can you talk a little bit about the strengths and the weakness of various leaders as well as serving on the boards and the capacities of the different companies? SPEAKER 2: Yeah, well, first, let me say I know ASCO is actually a really good about being careful about conflicts of interest and things like that, and I am too. So when I became chancellor at UCSF and then CEO at the Gates Foundation, I avoided being on life sciences boards. And so I got asked a lot by Biotech and pharma boards to be on their boards. Initially, I joined Procter Gamble's board, where I served for, I think, about six years. And then I joined Facebook's board. And those were both fantastic experiences. And I actually joined the boards for two very different reasons. One, P&G's board, I wanted to learn about branding and consumers. And I felt like in medicine, I didn't really learn about consumers or branding as much as I needed to or might. And then Facebook's board I joined because as Dave mentioned, I was with Charles Sawyers. We wrote the precision medicine report for the National Academy. And I really love-- to this day, I love the concept of using the social network to connect people. There was sort of an infamous story or famous story-- it's actually a good story-- of patients with a certain form of myeloma who found each other on Facebook and went to Genentech and said, make a new medicine for those of us with this genetic abnormality. And we'll all enroll in a trial. And so these connections to me felt really powerful on precision medicine. And so getting to work with CEOs at Procter and Gamble, the CEO Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook, I do see the really different attributes of leaders. But when you're a board member, you see those attributes of leaders with a very different lens. What's the return to shareholders? How does the community think about them? What's the impact-- and increasingly for Facebook, what's the impact on the world? What's the impact on our social discourse and our ability to have a free and fair election? A lot of those things became much more operative on the Facebook board while I was on the board and really tough social issues that continue to this day. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah, so we could go on for another hour, hour and a half, but I have one question to ask you which may seem a little bit silly in retrospect. But if you could look back on your youthful self at 21 or 22 knowing what you know now, with all the things that you've done during the course of your career, what advice would you give yourself? And perhaps I'll addend that by saying what advice would you give particularly to young women in the medical profession who are trying to balance that work-life balance that everyone talks about and worries about and struggles with, quite frankly. SPEAKER 2: I'll give you one thing I should have done better and one thing that I think I did well. So the advice on the one thing I should have done better, I think slow down a little bit and take a bit more time for fun and enjoyment. I was extremely worried about money when I was in college, and being number two of seven-- every summer, I worked. I remember at one point in medical school, I had three weeks off, and I got a job for those three weeks at a deli making sandwiches. And I went to college for three years, crammed it into three years so I wouldn't have to pay for the fourth year. So I just think that I could have taken on more loans. I could have done some things to just dial it down a bit because you don't get those years back. And that's such a great time of your life when you're 21, 22, something like that. So I wish I'd have just slowed down a bit and not been so driven for those seven years of university and medical school that I really just either worked or studied all the time. The thing that I feel like I did well, and I would say this to anybody who's going into medicine, is there's so many opportunities. There's so many wonderful things to do. But whoever your spouse is, whoever your partner in life is, take the time and energy to make sure that's the right person for you. I feel so blessed. Actually, my husband, who I've mentioned several times in this discussion, Nick, was my roommate in San Francisco when I was an intern, like real roommate. And we've been roommates ever since. And we're very compatible. He's one of seven kids too. It's another Catholic school kid. And we just have fun together and support each other. And there's no way I could have taken these crazy jobs or done the kinds of things I've done without Nick. So having a wonderful, supportive partner makes everything better. DAVE JOHNSON: That definitely resonates with Pat and me. We're both very blessed to have wives and spouses of, for me, it's 52 years. I can't remember, Pat. Yours is close. PAT LOEHRER: I had my first date with my wife 50 years ago, yeah. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah. SPEAKER 2: OK, so you guys know what I'm talking about. PAT LOEHRER: Absolutely. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah. PAT LOEHRER: Yeah. DAVE JOHNSON: Go ahead, Pat. PAT LOEHRER: I was going to ask a question that you probably may have already answered there, but Bob Woodward just came out of an interview with Colin Powell. One of the last questions he asked him was if he could reflect on that one person that was a moral compass for him. And so for you, that one person, alive or dead, that has been not the most powerful person you've met but the one that's really influenced you the most in terms of giving you direction, who would that be for you? SPEAKER 2: Probably, if I look at through line the entire time I've been alive, it would be my dad. He had the ability to look at a room and find the person who was struggling and go over to them. And I really loved that about my dad. PAT LOEHRER: I love it. DAVE JOHNSON: One last question. So we're at the top of the hour, and I know you're a very busy person. Pat and I love to read, but we're also documentary fiends and whatnot. We're interested. What have you read recently that really resonated with you? Do you have a recommendation for us? SPEAKER 2: I will say during the pandemic, I've gotten back into reading biographies, which I love. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah. SPEAKER 2: So I did the Caro, Lyndon Baines Johnson, which, Master of the Senate is really good. But my favorite book of the last two years is The Code Breaker, Walter Isaacson's book about Jennifer Doudna. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah. SPEAKER 2: One of the things I love about Walter Isaacson is he teaches you science through his biographies. Like, I think I understand relativity based on his Einstein biography, which is great. But The Code Breaker is really super good. DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah, we both read it. We couldn't agree with you more. PAT LOEHRER: Love it. Love it. DAVE JOHNSON: So Sue, again, it's been a real honor to have you as our guest, and we really appreciate the time you've taken. Thank you so much, and we hope you enjoy the beautiful weather in Alamo California, and I hope it does turn green and the rain continues for you. SPEAKER 2: Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. Thank you both. DAVE JOHNSON: Take care. SPEAKER 2: Bye. DAVE JOHNSON: I want to take the moment to thank our listeners for tuning in to "Oncology Et Cetera," an ASCO educational podcast where Pat and I really will talk about anything and everything. So if you have an idea or a topic you'd like to share with us and like for us to pursue, please email us at education@asco.org. Thanks again, and keep in mind that Pat is a giant in oncology, but he's a short instructor. Thanks, everybody. SPEAKER 1: Thank you for listening to this week's-- to make us part of your weekly routine, click Subscribe. Let us know what you think by leaving a review. For more information, visit the comprehensive e-learning center at elearning.asco.org.

An interview with Dr. Leslie Fecher from the University of Michigan Health System, author on “Management of Immune-Related Adverse Events in Patients Treated With Immune Checkpoint Inhibitor Therapy: ASCO Guideline Update.” She reviews considerations for the use of steroids to manage immune-related adverse events in patients treated with immune checkpoint inhibitor therapy in the final episode of this 13-part series. For more information visit www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines   TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care, and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. BRITTANY HARVEY: Hello, and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast series, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content, and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today we're continuing our series on the management of immune related adverse events. I am joined by Dr. Leslie Fecher from the University of Michigan Health System in Ann Arbor, Michigan, author on "Management of Immune Related Adverse Events in Patients Treated with Immune Checkpoint Inhibitor Therapy. ASCO Guideline Update" and "Management of Immune Related Adverse Events in Patients Treated with Chimeric Antigen Receptor T Cell Therapy, ASCO Guideline." And today we're focusing on considerations for the use of steroids to manage immune related adverse events in patients treated with immune checkpoint inhibitor therapy. Thank you for being here, Dr. Fecher. LESLIE FECHER: Thank you, Brittany, for this invitation. BRITTANY HARVEY: Great. Then I'd like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The full conflict of interest information for this guideline panel is available online with a publication of the guidelines in the Journal of Clinical Oncology. Dr. Fecher, do you have any relevant disclosures that are related to these guidelines? LESLIE FECHER: The details of my disclosures are included in the manuscript, but I'd just like to note that I have received research funding, specifically in the form of clinical trial funding, from companies that do manufacture these immunotherapies. BRITTANY HARVEY: Thank you. Then getting into the content, so steroids are valuable agents in the management of immunotherapy related adverse events. So first, what should clinicians consider pretreatment with steroids? LESLIE FECHER: So I think one of the first things is obviously going back to the traditional history and physical exam, and making sure you understand any preexisting comorbid conditions, such as diabetes, high blood pressure, preexisting cataracts or glaucoma, infections, osteopenia or osteoporosis. It's always good to try and optimize things before getting started on steroids. Additionally, it's typically considered very reasonable to check hepatitis B and C serologies prior to starting immunotherapy treatment. And also consideration of assessment for tuberculosis, if there are specific risk factors, understanding if somebody already carries a diagnosis of HIV, and Understanding the status of that in advanced would be relevant. BRITTANY HARVEY: Those are important considerations. Then in addition to that, how should opportunistic infections be prevented? LESLIE FECHER: So one of the most common infections that we tend to try and prevent is pneumocystis jirovecii pneumonia, or PJP, previously known as PCP pneumonia. And this is one of the more common things that we recommend prevention for. So in patients who have received the equivalent of prednisone dosing of 20 milligrams per day for four or more weeks, or greater than 30 milligrams per day for three weeks or more, that's when it would reasonably be indicated. There are obviously specific institutional guidelines for the preferred regimen, but I think that's important to consider. The role of viral prophylaxis as well as antifungal prophylaxis is a bit less clear, but is something to be considered, especially depending on the duration of the steroid course. And whether or not in the setting of herpes zoster, for example, if the patient has had issues with zoster in the past. BRITTANY HARVEY: OK. and then the use of these steroids is to treat immunotherapy related adverse events. But what are the key recommendations for monitoring both the short term and long term adverse effects from steroids? LESLIE FECHER: So I think being aware of the side effects as well as making sure that the patients and the family members or loved ones that are helping them are aware of them as well. From a short term standpoint, typically we recommend things such as GI prophylaxis, with either a proton pump inhibitor or a histamine 2 antagonist, to reduce or prevent gastric ulcers or duodenal ulcers or gastritis. Given some of the long term effects, such as bone loss as well as steroid myopathies, we encourage exercise as well as physical therapy in some circumstances. But really one of the most important things is to make sure that you're constantly both assessing and eliciting from the patient and family members for any other side effects. So often, common acute short term side effects can be increased risk of infection. So making sure you're asking about it. They may not have the typical manifestations of infection, such as fevers or chills. Insomnia or difficulty with anxiety, irritability, skin changes for sure, or high blood pressure. And then obviously being aware that laboratory evaluation for glucose intolerance is important as well. BRITTANY HARVEY: Definitely. Those are important points for clinicians, patients, and caregivers. So then we've had some of the other authors on this guideline talk about tapering steroids. So what are those recommendations on how clinicians should taper steroids? LESLIE FECHER: So tapering is an art in and of itself in my opinion, and there's lots of different ways to do it. Some general concepts are you want to really try and understand what the side effect is that you are managing, because that will require frequent reassessment. And so when we talk about reassessing patients during the treatment of their toxicities, the management of the toxicities, in my opinion, is almost as important as the management of the immunotherapy itself. And so patients still need to be seen, still need to be assessed, still need blood work done. And so reassessment for the toxicity that you're managing, given that we can see rebounding of symptoms. So for example, if they were getting treated for diarrhea or colitis, having a really good understanding of what their baseline bowel movements were, how bad they got, and then a constant reassessment and making sure that the patient, as well as the family, knows that this should not come back again, if you will, in the midst of the taper. I think the other things to be aware of is that I tend to always reassess before giving the next decrease in dose of the steroids rather than having an automatic decrease. Because again, patients sometimes will follow those, even if their symptoms recur. So ensuring that there's that, again, reassessment. When we're on oral steroids, some of the general concepts we say is that the course should be at least usually about four weeks total, sometimes as long as six weeks or even longer, depending on the toxicity. And we think about, on average, decreasing from a prednisone or prednisolone amount roughly 10 milligrams every three to seven days, depending on the side effect that you're managing. The longer the taper, the slower you might need to go, depending at the end. And also being aware of the risk of adrenal insufficiency towards the end of a long steroid course is also an important thing to assess for. BRITTANY HARVEY: Great. I appreciate you reviewing those considerations. So then in your view, Dr. Fecher, how will these recommendations for the use of steroids in the management of immune related adverse effects impact both clinicians and patients? LESLIE FECHER: I think it will bring ongoing awareness to the physician and their team, as well as the patient and their team. I think that this is obviously really important that everybody is involved and aware. And I use the term engagement from a patient and family member standpoint. It's really critical to have an understanding of the side effects, have an understanding of the prednisone management. And explaining that not only to the physician team and nurses and other people involved in their care, but when patients call in, that they know to look out for rebounding of their symptoms and to report them immediately, as that can impact steroid tapering. I think, again, the awareness and engagement is going to ensure that patients get the best care and best results. BRITTANY HARVEY: Absolutely, and thanks for highlighting both that awareness and engagement. So thank you so much for your work on these guidelines, and for taking the time to speak with me today, Dr. Fecher. LESLIE FECHER: Thank you so much, Brittany. I appreciate your time. BRITTANY HARVEY: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast series. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/supportive care guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO guidelines app, available in iTunes or the Google Play store. If you have enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

An interview with Dr. Marc Ernstoff from the National Cancer Institute, author on “Management of Immune-Related Adverse Events in Patients Treated With Immune Checkpoint Inhibitor Therapy: ASCO Guideline Update.” He reviews identification, evaluation & management of ocular toxicities in patients receiving ICPis, including uveitis, iritis, and episcleritis in Part 12 of this 13-part series. For more information visit www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines   TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. BRITTANY HARVEY: Hello, and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast series, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content, and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today we're continuing our series on the management of immune related adverse events. I am joined by Dr. Marc Ernstoff from the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, author on "Management of Immune Related Adverse Events in Patients Treated with Immune Checkpoint Inhibitor Therapy, ASCO Guideline Update" and "Management of Immune Related Adverse Events in Patients Treated With Chimeric Antigen Receptor T Cell Therapy, ASCO Guideline." And today we're focusing on ocular toxicities in patients treated with immune checkpoint inhibitor therapy. Thank you for being here, Dr. Ernstoff. MARC ERNSTOFF: Thank you, Brittany. BRITTANY HARVEY: First, I'd like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The full conflict of interest information for this guideline panel is available online with the publication of the guidelines in the Journal of Clinical Oncology. Dr. Ernstoff, do you have any relevant disclosures that are directly related to this guideline? MARC ERNSTOFF: I have no further disclosures at this time. SPEAKER 1: Great. Thank you. Then let's get into these ocular toxicities. So first, what are the immune related ocular toxicities addressed in this guideline? MARC ERNSTOFF: So the ocular toxicity is addressed in the guidelines represent a relatively uncommon side effect of immune checkpoint inhibition, and represents inflammation of all components of the eye from the superficial component to the internal uveal component. So there is iritis. There's episcleritis and uveitis, are the ones that are usually identified by physical examination and by complaints. BRITTANY HARVEY: Understood. Then so let's start with what are the key recommendations for identification, evaluation, and management of uveitis and iritis. MARC ERNSTOFF: So those are excellent questions. I think that it's important for clinicians to recognize that while most of the eye toxicities are relatively minor, low grade, and can be managed effectively, there are some that are very important to identify, particularly as they may lead to blindness, particularly uveitis or pan uveitis. So identification of these symptoms and signs are important. So evaluation of the patient by asking whether there are any eye symptoms-- dryness or irritation-- is important in your evaluation of the patient's side effects. In addition, looking at the eye, both with a penlight, looking for any inflammatory signs, and doing a ophthalmologic examination to make sure there's no cloudiness or anything identified in the retina is important. BRITTANY HARVEY: Great. And then furthermore, what are the key recommendations for identification, evaluation, and management of episcleritis? MARC ERNSTOFF: So episcleritis can usually be seen by irritation in the superficial areas of the eye. Usually if it's low grade, it can be managed with topical steroids and continuation of the immune checkpoint inhibitor. On the other hand, if it's more bothersome and not responding to topical therapy, evaluation by an ophthalmologist, potentially interruption of immune checkpoint inhibitor, is important. And if it's severe, systemic steroids might be required at that time. BRITTANY HARVEY: Great. Thank you for reviewing how to best identify and manage that particular toxicity. So then in your view, how will these recommendations for the management of ocular toxicities impact both clinicians and patients? MARC ERNSTOFF: So again, I think it's important that both from symptom management, that these, many times, can be managed with topical steroids and tears effectively, and that a patient's therapy can continue, which I believe is important. On the other hand, identifying areas that may be beyond the expertise of an oncologist, would require evaluation by an ophthalmologist, including a slit light examination. It is important to recognize that uveitis can have minimal symptoms and yet be more severe in its condition, requiring intervention and holding of immune checkpoint. And if really severe-- grade 3 or 4-- the interruption and discontinuation of immune checkpoint inhibition is probably going to be required to manage the side effect. Again, if undiagnosed and untreated, it can lead to blindness. So while not quote life-threatening, clearly a major impact in quality of life of a patient that is preventable, if identified. BRITTANY HARVEY: Great. Thank you so much for viewing these recommendations for the management of ocular toxicities, to ensure both the quality of life of patients and the best practices for management of these toxicities. So I want to thank you for your work on these guidelines and for taking the time to speak to you today, Dr. Ernstoff. MARC ERNSTOFF: Thank, you very much, Brittany. BRITTANY HARVEY: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast series. Stay tuned for additional episodes on the management of immune related adverse events. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/supportive care guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO guidelines app, available in iTunes or the Google Play store. If you have enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

An interview with Dr. Pauline Funchain from Cleveland Clinic, author on “Management of Immune-Related Adverse Events in Patients Treated With Immune Checkpoint Inhibitor Therapy: ASCO Guideline Update.” She reviews the recommendations for cardiovascular toxicities in patients receiving ICPis, including overall cardiac toxicities (i.e., myocarditis, pericarditis & arrhythmias), and VTE in Part 11 of this 13-part series. For more information visit www.asco.org/supportive-care-guidelines   TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care, and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. BRITTANY HARVEY: Hello, and welcome to the ASCO Guidelines podcast series, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content, and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all the shows, including this one, at asco.org/podcasts. My name is Brittany Harvey, and today we're continuing our series on the management of immune related adverse events. I am joined by Dr. Pauline Fontaine from the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio, author on "Management of Immune Related Adverse Events in Patients Treated with Immune Checkpoint Inhibitor Therapy, ASCO Guideline Update," and Management of Immune Related Adverse Events in Patients Treated with Chimeric Antigen Receptor T Cell Therapy, ASCO Guideline." And today we're focusing on the cardiovascular toxicities in patients treated with immune checkpoint inhibitor therapy. Thank you for being here, Dr. Fontaine. PAULINE FONTAINE: Thank you, Brittany, for the invitation. BRITTANY HARVEY: First, I'd like to note that ASCO takes great care in the development of its guidelines, and ensuring that the ASCO conflict of interest policy is followed for each guideline. The full conflict of interest information for this guideline panel is available online with the publication of the guidelines in the Journal of Clinical Oncology. Dr. Fontaine, do you have any relevant disclosures that are directly related to these guidelines? PAULINE FONTAINE: So I do. My institution receives research funding from Pfizer and Bristol Myers Squibb for clinical trials where I'm a primary investigator. And I have done some consultation work with Eisai. BRITTANY HARVEY: OK. thank you for those disclosures. Then talking about the content of this guideline, what are the immune related cardiovascular toxicities addressed in this guideline? PAULINE FONTAINE: So there are two major categories. One is an overall cardiovascular category. That includes myocarditis, pericarditis, arrhythmias, impaired ventricular function with heart failure, and vasculitis. That's overall. And there's a second category of venous thromboembolism. BRITTANY HARVEY: Great. Then starting with that overall category, what are the key recommendations for identification, evaluation, and management of myocarditis, pericarditis, arrhythmias, impaired ventricular function with heart failure, and vasculitis? PAULINE FONTAINE: So in that overall category, I think it's important to recognize that there are symptoms that are a little bit more general. They may be cardiovascular. They may be pulmonary. But we have to be aware that some of these can be cardiovascular. So that would include worsening fatigue, progressive or acute dyspnea. I think they're generally going to be other things, but you really have to recognize a potential cardiac IRE, as those can have major medical consequences. I mean there are other things that are more obviously cardiac, like chest pain, arrhythmia, palpitations, acute onset peripheral edema. And it is important to note that they can, like every other IRE, happen at any time. In the literature, the median time to onset is 6 weeks, but the range is somewhere between 1.4 to 54, and we know that it can be all over the place with IREs in terms of presentation. Then next would be evaluation. So with evaluation, whenever you see this type of side effect, fatigue, dyspnea, chest pain, it's natural to want to get an EKG troponin. I think that's a great place to start. And I think if there's more concern for cardiac type of IRE, then an echocardiogram, a chest X-ray, I think, are probably the next easiest evaluations to assess for cardiac IRE. One of the important things to note is that cardiac IREs, especially myocarditis, tend to happen along with concurrent myocytis, so it's important to check a CPK to rule that in or rule that out. And typically, then if people need more evaluation, the cardiac MRI is the next step, but things like cardiac catheterization may be involved. And so that's where I think it's really important with management to have cardiology involved early. I mentioned this briefly before, but it's really important to know that myocarditis has a very high fatality rate, up to about 50% in published series. I think as we get better at recognizing myocarditis, that fatality rate will likely go down, but catching a cardiac IRE late can have some very serious implications for our patients. So immediately recognizing that a cardiac workup is necessary, and referring early to cardiology is really important, no matter what grade of cardiac IRE we see. And I do think that with cardiac IREs, it's really, is it an inpatient workup? Does it require immediate cardiac consultation and workup? If there are elevated troponins that are going up, or conduction abnormalities, does that patient need to be in a cardiac unit? I think those are the major things to keep in mind with management. Another thing, I think, that is really important because of the high fatality rate: starting corticosteroids early. So like our other IREs, you can start corticosteroids that 1 to 2 mgs per kg per day. And doing that early has the potential to quickly improve cardiac inflammation, keep people from the very serious and potentially fatal side effects for cardiac IREs. And it really doesn't have that much of a consequence in the short term. So I think in discussions about this guideline, we all felt that if a patient has a Grade 2 or higher IRE-- so that's anything that has a cardiac biomarker that's abnormal plus symptoms of any kind-- it's important to keep in mind early steroids and early cardiac consultation. For very, very severe cases where management with corticosteroids is not improving the patient's status, then we highly recommend considering cardiac transplant rejection doses, which would be methyl pred at 1 gram daily, or adding other immunosuppressants. So there are not as many studies as we would like, but mycophenolate, infliximab, antithymocyte globulin have all been reported. There have also been case reports on abatacept or alemtuzumab, with good outcomes. So those are things to consider, of course, with cardiology input for severe cases. BRITTANY HARVEY: Thank you. Those are important notes for clinicians to keep in mind for management and evaluation. So then, the second category that you mentioned, what are the key recommendations for identification, evaluation, and management of venous thromboembolism? PAULINE FONTAINE: So for identification, most everyone listening to this podcast knows what a venous thromboembolism looks like. That's extremity swelling, extremity pain, sometimes accompanied by fever, pleuritic pain, cough, dyspnea. And the evaluation is the same as what you would see in clinic. That would be venous ultrasounds for any suspected deep vein thromboembolisms. And CT, PE for any suspected pulmonary embolism. And of course, a VQ scan if you can't do that type of CT. And the management is the same as what you would normally do in clinic. So if it's a superficial thrombosis, that would be a grade 1. You would do a warm compress, do supportive care. But importantly, you can continue the immune checkpoint inhibitor per our recommendations. For grade 2, so a symptomatic thrombosis, a deep vein thrombosis, that would require anticoagulation. But again, once anticoagulation has been started, the recommendation is that it is safe to continue the immune checkpoint inhibitor therapy, because at this point, you're protected. Should be, in theory, protected from future embolic events. And then, I think the major thing is that for management in general once there is anticoagulation on board, then there isn't necessarily a reason to hold immune checkpoint inhibitor therapy. I think that the major reasons we would recommend to hold it are life threatening consequences, organ damage. So grade 4 embolic event, where you would have to admit the patient. And then it becomes a risk benefit discussion after an admission. In general, I think the recognition and treatment are the same in terms of venous thromboemboli that are identified in the context of immune checkpoint inhibitor therapy. The major thing is just to know that it exists as a potential side effect, that the incidences appear to be higher, and that there is something about immune checkpoint inhibitor therapy that may put our patients at higher risk for these embolic events. BRITTANY HARVEY: Definitely. That's key to know, and particularly also when to hold or continue ICPI therapy. So then in your view, Dr. Fontaine, how will these recommendations for management of cardiovascular toxicities impact both clinicians and patients? PAULINE FONTAINE: I think the major thing is to know that these exist. The overall cardiac toxicities are less common, so if we're talking about myocarditis, that is a pretty rare event. But it's important to know that this is an event that is potentially fatal, that that fatality happens often, and that myocarditis can occur along with a myositis, and in some cases with myasthenia gravis. So these are three different rare side effects that can happen together, sometimes in pairs, sometimes in triplets, sometimes just one of them. But any one of these three has a higher risk for fatality. So I think just to know that it's out there. So that that is just hanging around in the differential for someone who is tired or out of breath. It may be pulmonary, but also keep in mind that it could be cardiac, and that is serious, and that should be worked up early and treated early. I think that's the major thing that I hope these guidelines do, is put these important but rare side effects out there and potentially save lives. I will say for VTEs, for venous thromboemboli, again, so PE can happen, and it can be fatal. I think this is not as rare, but of course, it's not rare in our patient population either. So these are things that we already look out for. Just, I think, if this podcast and the guidelines can add to the education that immune checkpoint inhibitors will increase the risk of thromboembolism, I think that those are the important takeaways. BRITTANY HARVEY: Absolutely. Recognition of these IREs is a common theme across the affected organ sites that we've heard in many of these podcast episodes. So I want to thank you for your work on these guidelines and for taking the time to speak with me today, Dr. Fontaine. PAULINE FONTAINE: Thank you for having me. BRITTANY HARVEY: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the ASCO Guidelines podcast series. Stay tuned for additional episodes on the management of immune related adverse events. To read the full guideline, go to www.asco.org/supportive care guidelines. You can also find many of our guidelines and interactive resources in the free ASCO guidelines app, available in iTunes or the Google Play store. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please rate and review the podcast and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

A physician attempts to ease a patient's pain, a painful moment somewhat eased by the joy of music.   TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. [MUSIC PLAYING]   RICHARD LEITER: Ode to Joy. "Is now an OK time?" I asked as I quietly entered the dimly lit room on a Saturday afternoon. "Yes, we've been waiting for you," my patient's wife Julie responded in the same calm, composed voice she had maintained all week. "Before we start, what questions do you have?" "I think you answered all of them this morning. I'm ready. Tom is ready. We just don't want him to suffer anymore." "OK, we'll get started." When I was in training, I had seen my preceptors initiate palliative sedation, but this was my first experience doing so as an attending physician. After being dormant for so long, my impostor syndrome returned. Though I was confident that I was taking the clinically-appropriate next step, I was nervous. I asked Tanya, our charge nurse and the nurse who was primarily caring for him over the last few days, to draw up the syringe. She did so with practiced confidence and handed it to me. I held it between my fingers, wondering how slowly I would need to push it to ensure the 2 milliliters of midazolam went in over a full five minutes. Tanya cleaned off the side port of his IV. I twisted the syringe into place. I looked up at Julie. She squeezed Tom's hand. I had first heard about Tom nearly a week earlier, when my colleague was handing off the service to me. "He's in his 50s, metastatic cancer. He was home on hospice and came in yesterday with uncontrolled pain. We started him on ketamine and he looks much better. The plan is to wean his ketamine, increase his methadone, and get him back home, hopefully in the next day or two." Stoic from years of pain from cancer eating away at his bones, Tom lay in bed with his eyes closed, his furrowed brow the only sign of his ongoing agony. When the nurses tried to move him, he screamed. After we weaned his ketamine, his pain quickly worsened. We increased methadone and hydromorphone. Neither gave him adequate relief. We restarted ketamine, but it proved to be no match for his pain. On rounds one morning, Julie asked if Tom could make it home. I told her I didn't think so and explained how worried I was about his pain. If we sent him home, I was concerned the pain would force him to come right back. Julie told me her kids would be disappointed, but that they'd understand, as she did. Easing Tom's suffering was more important. The hospital bed his family had set up in the living room would remain empty, a physical manifestation of cancer's unending cruelty. The hospital bed his family had set up in the living room would remain empty, a physical manifestation of cancer's unending cruelty. We talked about what would come next. If further titrating his medications proved ineffective, which I worried it would be, we would need to consider palliative sedation. "Whatever you need to do," Julie responded, her voice barely betraying the exhaustion I imagine she was feeling. Palliative sedation is a procedure used to relieve refractory suffering in a terminally-ill patient. Clinicians carefully sedate the patient, often to the point of unconsciousness, to relieve symptoms such as pain, nausea, shortness of breath, or agitated delirium. It is a procedure of last resort, and in our hospital, requires the approval of two attending physicians and the unit's nursing director. Though palliative sedation may shorten a patient's life, ethicists and clinicians have long regarded it as acceptable because its goal is not to hasten death but rather to relieve suffering. This is known as the doctrine of double effect, by which an action with at least one possible good effect and at least one possible bad effect can be morally permissible. Back in his room on that Saturday afternoon, I looked over at Tanya, the nurse, then at Harry, my fellow, who had been caring for Tom all week. I took in a breath under my mask, then slowly began to inject the contents of the syringe into his IV. In the quiet, I could hear the music coming from Julie's phone, which she had placed on the pillow beside his head. A pianist played a slow, mournful rendition of the final movement of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, the Ode to Joy. In my head, I sang along. (SINGING) Joyful, joyful, we adore thee. I went to a traditionally Anglican school. 600 boys of all faiths and backgrounds, we'd rise each morning in assembly and sing hymns together. We cheered, yelled, and thumped on our pews-- a few minutes of raucous togetherness before we devolved into the usual bullies and cliques for the rest of the day. Tom's room couldn't have been more different. He remained completely still. Though Julie held his hand, he was alone, as we all felt in that room. (SINGING) Hearts unfold like flowers before thee, opening to the sun above. I felt the soft resistance of the syringe's plunger hitting the barrel. I looked back up at Tom. His chest fell, but didn't rise. I waited. He didn't breathe. The music slowed down. I felt Harry's eyes pivoting back and forth between my face and Tom's chest. I fixed my eyes on Julie's hands wrapped around her husband's. Despite the tension of the last week, she was calm, gentle. I matched my breath to hers. If she could exude such peace, so could I, I thought. I noticed Tom's hands. He had a piano player's fingers, long and slender. I pictured him sitting at the piano in their living room. I wondered who would take his place on the bench. I wondered if he could hear the song playing beside him. Had he and Julie chosen it for this moment? Did it bring back joyful memories, as it did for me? (SINGING) Melt the clouds of sin and sadness, drive the dark of doubt away. He didn't breathe. Did my first attempt at palliative sedation become euthanasia? Even if so, was this OK? I rehashed our conversations from the last few days. We talked about the risks. I went over the dose. Double effect, I reassured myself. Even so, as bedside nurses have told me, it's easier to talk about philosophy when you're not holding the syringe. I thought about how I would explain Tom's death to Julie. I wondered if she would be angry, upset, relieved? With the help of my outpatient colleagues, they had spent years preparing for his death. His financial affairs were in order, and he had done legacy work with his kids. More than nearly anyone I had cared for, they were ready. Were we? Was I? (SINGING) Mortals join the happy chorus which the morning stars began. He breathed in. Not a grand gasp, a slow, soft inhalation. Tom's hand flexed ever so slightly around Julie's. In my head, I thumped a pew. [MUSIC PLAYING]   SPEAKER 2: Welcome to "JCO's Cancer Stories-- The Art of Oncology," brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all of the shows, including this one, at podcast.asco.org. SPEAKER 3: The guest on this podcast episode has no disclosures to declare. [MUSIC PLAYING] LIDIA SCHAPIRA: Welcome to "Cancer Stories-- The Art of Oncology" podcast series. I'm your host Lidia Schapira. And with me today is Dr. Richard Leiter, physician and member of the Psychosocial Oncology and Palliative Care team at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in Boston and the Brigham and Women's Hospital. Welcome to our podcast. RICHARD LEITER: Thank you so much for having me. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: It's a real pleasure. You submitted a beautiful narrative piece called "Ode to Joy." And I'd like to start today, Richard, by just focusing first on the case that you present to us. Let me tell you how I understand Tom's history, and then you can correct me if this is not the way that you'd like him to be understood. And remember, Tom is a man in his 50s who's lived with metastatic cancer to bones for years. In your narrative, you're very careful and document the fact that you've worked with many members of your palliative medicine team for a long time, that there had been many efforts to control his pain, his suffering, and he had to be hospitalized for pain management. He was already receiving home hospice care. There was a bed in the living room in the center of the family home. And he had a very supportive family and a wife that we'll call Julie at bedside. Is that the proper framing for the story? RICHARD LEITER: Exactly. Yep. Yeah. I think what I would add is that the goal was really to control his pain and get him back home. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: So now you're there as the fresh attending in palliative medicine, and you're called in, and it becomes quite clear to you after a few days of changing his medications that the pain is refractory. And that it-- you note here that he screams when he is moved, that the level of pain reaches what you have called agony. So tell us a little bit more about how a palliative medicine consultant or physician approaches this kind of situation in hospital today. RICHARD LEITER: Yeah, no. Great. Thanks so much. So we were, I would say, lucky enough to have him on our intensive palliative care unit, where we're caring for patients with difficult and sometimes refractory symptoms at any stage of the disease. So not only for end of life. But we do see a number of cases like his every year, every few months, where someone is getting closer to the end of life. The goal is to really focus on intensive symptom management. And their symptoms are challenging to control. So I think the first step, always, is a good history, right? Where is this pain coming from? What treatments have they tried already? What's worked? What hasn't? We're going to titrate medications, but select medications based on that and titrate them. I think someone who has been involved with my outpatient colleagues and has been receiving hospice services at home has often gone through many treatment modalities. So it's really taking what they've been on before and starting to add to it. So for Tom, I had inherited him from one of my colleagues, who had admitted him a couple of days earlier. And at that point, he was already on a hydromorphone infusion and ketamine, as I talk about in the piece. Ketamine had been started, hopefully, as a bridge to get him back home. And he had been on methadone, which is one of our most potent agents for, not only nociceptive pain, so our basic kind of bony pain or visceral organ pain, but also if there's pain with a neuropathic component. Methadone is an opioid that can be particularly effective there. So I think it's saying, OK, well, have we hit all of our receptors in managing their pain? Are we managing the anxiety on top of that? Are we doing everything we can? Are there procedures that we could do to help with their pain? Sometimes we're talking about intrathecal pumps for instance. And obviously, that's a more involved discussion. How much time does someone have left? Are the goals really to put them through a procedure in order to get their pain under control? But we frequently work with our interventional pain colleagues to tease out whether a procedure would be helpful for a particular patient. So those are the thoughts that always go through my mind when I'm approaching someone with severe cancer-related pain. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: So this is a very thoughtful approach. And I think one of the messages is that it seems palliative medicine and pain management are integrated into the care of patients with advanced cancer, which is a very important message for our listeners and our readers. And here you are, you have all of this, you have good communication, it seems, with your team members, with the patient's family, and there's nothing more that you can think of doing. And you're now starting to think about interventions that we normally don't think of, except as a last resort. Bring this to the bedside. Tell us a little bit about the recommendation for palliative sedation and when that's indicated in care. RICHARD LEITER: Yeah. So palliative sedation, as I write in the piece, it's a measure of last resort. And certainly, in our hospital's protocol, it explicitly states it's when all other options have been tried. As we start to integrate more options, it's always a conversation we're having among our team-- is when is palliative sedation truly indicated. How many boxes do we need to check before going down the palliative sedation route? And I think-- so we started to think about-- we had him on ketamine. We tried to wean him off, it didn't go well. We restarted ketamine. We started dexmedetomidine, which can be useful. Precedex, the brand name, they oftentimes use it in the ICU for sedation, but we find that it can be helpful in cases of refractory pain as well. And my practice has been-- and though I haven't gotten to palliative sedation until this case-- when I'm thinking about Precedex, I'm also starting conversations with the patient or their family, and certainly our team, about palliative sedation to say if this doesn't work, this is where we're headed. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: And why is this situation so difficult, so personally anxiety-provoking for you? You do use words that convey that you are feeling nervous, or perhaps even anxious. Tell us why. RICHARD LEITER: I think it's-- relieving our patient's suffering, relieving their families suffering is certainly the core of much of medicine and very much the core of what we do in palliative care. And I think to have someone in just such a terrible situation-- putting aside the pain, right? This is a man who's dying of his cancer, has a relatively young family. That alone is an awful situation. And my job is to make that situation a little bit less bad, is to ease the suffering. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: And there's something about this particular procedure, however, that adds a level of intensity and nervousness for you, and that is that perhaps-- you can describe this better than I-- but the fact that in some cases, this could have the unintended effect of actually causing respiratory depression or even hastening death and something that you have explained in your piece, if I understood you correctly, as the double effect. Did I get that right? RICHARD LEITER: Yeah, that's right. So the worry or one of the considerations with palliative sedation is that it could hasten someone's death. Oftentimes, the doses of the medications that we're using, if we're titrating them slowly, there are studies that show that it doesn't necessarily. I do think, though, when we tie it into withholding artificial nutrition and hydration, in that case, had the person been awake enough to eat and drink before, we do know that it would probably hasten their death, right, from that part of it, but not necessarily the sedation aspect. So double effect is basically saying this is ethically OK-- and there are a number of criteria. But if we are intending the good effect and not the bad effect and that it's proportional to the gravity of the situation so that not every patient who comes in with bad pain undergoes palliative sedation. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: My favorite line, Richard, in the piece-- and one that I now have read probably dozens of times-- is this-- "the double effect, I reassured myself. Even so, as bedside nurses have told me, it's easier to talk about philosophy when you're not holding the syringe." And that just gives me goosebumps thinking about it. What did you feel when you were holding the syringe? RICHARD LEITER: Exactly as I wrote about. There's all of the cognitive processes going on. And I ran it by another attending, I ran it by the nursing director, I ran-- everyone was on the same page, that this was medically indicated in this situation. And yet, when I'm standing there in the room-- patient, his wife, my fellow, and the nurse-- and I'm the one holding the syringe, watching the medication go in, it felt completely different to me. And there's a power that comes with it. In one sense, I felt like I was there for my patient. Here I am, standing here doing this to ease his suffering. And then the other, the unintended consequences of the sedation are real, and that feels different when you're the one physically doing it. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: I think one of the incredible gifts you've given us as readers is to share this with us and really adds a different dimension to the discussion of the complexity of what it is to be present, not just as a witness, in this case, but as somebody, as you say, with a power to really control so many things in the situation. And I thank you for sharing that with us. And question to you is, did writing about it in any way help you process this emotional, very powerful experience? RICHARD LEITER: Absolutely. I write to process. I write when I feel like I have something to say. And oftentimes, I write when a particular moment struck me. And I think that that moment, sitting there, pushing the medication, waiting for that breath while the music was playing was so poignant for me that I walked out of the room and I remember thinking to myself that night as I was decompressing on my walk home from work, I think I need to write about this. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: So thank you for writing about it, and then, of course, for submitting for review and to share it with people. Let me bring the music in. Music is such an important part of our sensory experience. So as you were holding the syringe, Julie, Tom's wife, puts the phone on the pillow and she plays the piano version of Ode to Joy from Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, which I want to play for our listeners now. [MUSIC PLAYING]   So Ode to Joy meant something, clearly, to Tom and Julie. And you said that you watched-- perhaps you were watching for his reactions. But tell me a little bit about what it meant to you. You sprinkled your essay with the lines for the choral for Ode to Joy, which has a religious significance as well. So tell us a little bit about that. RICHARD LEITER: Yeah. So I grew up in Toronto. I went to an all-boys school there that had a traditionally Anglican background, though I'm not-- I'm Jewish. We would sing hymns. And over the course of my time there, the hymns became less denominational and more multicultural and inclusive. And it was a moment-- it was a nice moment where everyone got into it. It's 600 boys singing, and so I still remember the words to Ode to Joy vividly. Anytime I hear it, I can replay the words in my head. And I found myself, in those moments in the room, really thinking about it. And the words were still-- as I was processing and watching Tom and Julie and making sure I was pushing the medication at the right speed, there was this soundtrack. It's a strange moment too, because they're good memories for me, and yet I'm in this incredibly solemn, intimate moment in my patient's room. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: And so as we're getting to the end of the piece and there's all of this tension that you've built up in the writing and the narrative-- and here you are, you're waiting and you hear the music and so on-- and then you finally let the tension out and he breathes. It's not a huge breath, but it's a soft, slow inhalation. And you see that the hand is flexed slightly around his wife, so he's still breathing. And you finish with this line that you say, "In my head, I thumped a pew." And I have to ask you about that. What does that mean to you? RICHARD LEITER: Yeah. So in that moment, it was relief, is what it was. Just the sense of, OK, this went-- it's my first time doing this, and this went OK. He appears more comfortable. He is still breathing. This is OK. And it just brought me back when we would thump the pews as we were singing the hymns. Our principal did not like it, but-- [LAUGHTER] But I think it was just that it was relief. I hesitate to say it was joy because I don't think there's joy in a situation like that, in the room. But there was a sense of satisfaction maybe, or professional satisfaction, the, OK, this is what we can do. And as bad as the situation is, there was something that we could do to make him somewhat more comfortable. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: Well, I certainly learned a lot. I wonder if now that some time has passed since this event, if you have any additional reflections on how this story has impacted your professional delivery of care, or perhaps the way you teach others, and if there are any parting comments that you'd like to leave us with. So I haven't had another case where I've needed to do palliative sedation, though we've thought about it in a couple of cases. I do think it's helped me, when I talk about palliative sedation with our trainees, to add the emotional valence. I think I was pretty good at talking about the importance of making sure everyone's on the same page and talking to the patient and the family and nursing staff. But to really talk about the significance of that moment for us as clinicians and how it does feel different-- at least it did for me-- and I think drawing on my personal experience is helpful in teaching it to the fellows that it's OK to feel like that when you're doing this. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: There are moments in medicine-- certainly in what you do-- that are really difficult. And this, probably, I would imagine, ranks as one of the top things. And it should never be easy. It will never be easy. The day that you think it's easy, you need to find something else, right? RICHARD LEITER: I think that's right. I think that's right. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: Well, thank you so much, Richard. You made me laugh, you made me cry reading this, and I thank you very much. My last question is, have you had a chance to talk with Tom's widow Julie about what that moment felt like to her? RICHARD LEITER: I have not, although I hope to in the near future. LIDIA SCHAPIRA: And that will be your next piece for us. [CHUCKLES] All right. Well, thank you very much and until the next time. Hope you all enjoy reading Ode to Joy. RICHARD LEITER: Thank you so much. SPEAKER 1: Until next time, thank you for listening to this "JCO's Cancer Stories-- The Art of Oncology" podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. While you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. "JCO's Cancer Stories-- The Art of Oncology" podcast is just one of ASCO's many podcasts. You can find all of the shows at podcast.asco.org. [MUSIC PLAYING]

A mother mourning the loss of her daughter discovers that she has lost something else important to her.   TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. SPEAKER 2: Welcome to JCO's Cancer Stories, The Art of Oncology, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all of the shows, including this one, at podcast.asco.org. ELIZABETH CONROW: Access Denied, by Elizabeth Conrow. I lost my daughter, Amanda, in 2015. She was diagnosed with a brain tumor at age three and was in treatment for 2 and 1/2 years. Less than two weeks after she died, friends and family were getting on with their lives, but I was still in shock. I couldn't believe that Amanda was really gone. Early in the day, I looked at my kitchen table and tried to imagine her eating a bowl of rice, an unusual breakfast for a five-year-old. But that was Amanda. My eyes filled with tears as they rested on the empty chair. She was really gone. In that moment, standing in the kitchen, I struggled to remember every detail of who she was. It felt like the memory of her was slipping away. My heart beat quickened, and my mind raced with compulsive nagging thoughts. How tall was she the last time we were in the outpatient clinic? How much did she weigh? I realized I would never be able to put her on a scale again or mark her height on the cupboard door. I fear that this information would be lost forever, just like Amanda. I moved to my computer and started to log on to our hospital's online patient portal to see if I could find answers to my questions. How many times had I logged into this system looking for Amanda's test results or to message one of her doctors? How many times did it serve to confirm appointment times or remind me of medicine doses? I clicked the Sign In button, and my heart stopped. I couldn't get in. Instead of viewing her chart, I saw an alarming red stop sign and a message saying "access denied." I stared at the screen in disbelief. Just two weeks after losing my daughter, I faced yet another heartbreaking and unexpected loss. I no longer had access to Amanda's medical records. I no longer had a connection to her medical team and the hospital family I had grown to love and care for. Everything Amanda had been through for the last 2 and 1/2 years was gone. It was as if she never existed. She had vanished. I was caught off guard, deeply saddened, and utterly unprepared to have this connection to the hospital and this connection to Amanda ripped away. I was confused and embarrassed by my emotions. I certainly didn't need this access. But I was devastated that it had been taken away. I reached out to my daughter's oncologist to ask how and why the patient portal had been turned off. I let him know that it was really important to me to be able to view Amanda's records, at least for a time. It had never occurred to him that a parent might want to see this information again. He explained that it was a system designed safety measure that automatically turned off access to an account once a patient had died. I was the first parent to reach out to him with this question. Amanda's oncologist immediately contacted the online records office to reactivate her chart so I could search out answers to some of my questions. It brought me so much comfort to be able to go back in and revisit her medical journey. As I thanked her doctor, I shared with him how important it was to protect families from this type of trauma. I didn't want another family to experience this pain. He listened and helped put a manual reactivation system in place. Going forward when a child died, the online records office would manually reactivate each pediatric account individually. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it was a step in the right direction. It has been six years since Amanda's passing. I am now the bereavement coordinator at the same hospital where she received care. When I started in this role, I was surprised to learn of several families who, like me, had been denied access to their child's medical record. Hadn't the hospital resolved this issue years ago? I was frustrated that our institution hadn't found a better solution in the six years that passed. Last spring, as I followed up with bereaved families from our hospital, I had a conversation with a mother, Diane, that was hauntingly familiar and heartbreaking. Diane and I spoke on the phone shortly after the loss of her son, Evan. As we wrapped up our call, almost as an afterthought, she sheepishly asked about Evan's medical records being deactivated. I was immediately brought back to my kitchen table and the pain I felt when I experienced this secondary loss just two weeks after losing Amanda. I knew why Diane felt silly asking about this. And I deeply understood her need to log in. Diana explained that she was creating a record of everything Evan had been through, every transfusion, every chemo treatment, every inpatient and outpatient visit. And she could no longer complete that task. She shared her experience with me. I know for me, it was really difficult to wake up that very next morning, literally only about 12 hours since he died and not be able to look at it. Even though I know there had been no additional tests run since the last time I had checked, it was my morning routine to look at it. I would check it each morning, even before I got up. It had been that way for months while we were inpatient. First, looking at his ANC and counts, and then in the final month and a half, checking his bilirubin and liver numbers. There was always that hope that things were going to improve. This would be the day. So that first and subsequent time was just a blunt reminder that he was gone and there would be no more checking. I wanted to go back and look at his results, too. Oddly, I thought it would make me feel closer to him and closer to the routine I had while he was alive. Diane wanted to feel closer to her son. I wanted to feel closer to my daughter. Accessing a child's online medical portal is one way a parent begins to come to terms with this impossible loss. Snaman, et al, 2016, suggest that parents who are grieving significantly benefit from the creation and continuation of bonds with a child who has died. Revisiting a child's journey through the lens of the medical portal helps strengthen that bond. As I looked through Amanda's chart and remembered various times we visited the hospital, it helped me picture her more clearly. And it helped me feel a connection to her that I was deeply longing for. Looking through a child's medical record, while painful, can be part of healing and connection. In addition to creating bonds with a child who has died, the medical portal helps parents stay connected to the hospital and the medical team that cared for their child. According to additional research by Snaman, et al, 2016, bereaved parent's benefit from the ongoing support of a hospital throughout a time of grief. When a child dies, the secondary loss of the medical community can leave families feeling abandoned by those they have come to trust and depend on. Anyone who had taken care of Amanda felt like family to me. Sending messages to Amanda's medical team after she died provided a feeling of familiarity when everything else around me was spiraling out of control. A continuing connection with the medical team through the online portal can positively impact grief outcomes for bereaved parents. Accessing a child's medical record provides a grieving family with an easy way to communicate with, and ask lingering questions of the medical team. Access to medical records should not end when a child dies. The 21st Century Cures act acknowledges the need to provide patients with open notes and immediate access to medical information. As we implement real-time access for living patients, continuing access after a loss should also be considered essential. Dr. Alan Wolfelt, from the Center for Loss, discusses the need to say hello to one's grief and welcome it before saying goodbye to the person who died. In those early months, saying hello to grief meant reading through Amanda's medical records, communicating with her medical team, and uncovering every connection I had to her while she was alive. In some small way, logging into Amanda's medical portal and discovering that she was 42 inches tall and weighed 41.2 pounds brought me immeasurable comfort. As parents grieve the loss of a child, comfort and connection should be readily available without having access denied. SPEAKER 3: The guest on this podcast episode has no disclosures to declare. SPEAKER 4: Welcome to Cancer Stories, The Art of Oncology podcast series. With me today is Elizabeth Conrow, bereavement coordinator at the University of Rochester Medical Center and the author of Access Denied. Welcome to the program, Liz. ELIZABETH CONROW: Thank you so much for having me here. It's an honor to be here. SPEAKER 4: It is our pleasure. And first of all, let me start by saying I was very moved by the piece. And I'm so sorry that you lived through this experience. And really interested in knowing how you transformed your personal grief into now, your profession. ELIZABETH CONROW: Sure. Well, it's definitely been a process. Obviously, as a family, we never thought we would be down this road. I never thought I would have a child who had cancer. I never thought that I would have to go through the grief of losing a child and then comforting my own family, and my husband, and those around us through that experience. And I can tell you that for the first couple of years, I really didn't feel equipped to do anything. I felt like I lost my confidence in anything that I had an ability to do prior to this. Simple things like making a meal for someone who was sick became way too overwhelming to even consider doing. So it was definitely a process of years. But when the opportunity came up to work at Golisano Children's Hospital, the same place where Amanda had been cared for, the timing was right. And I knew that it was a great step to take and a way to honor Amanda's life, and really in some way, offer just a little bit of support and comfort to bereaved families, because I understood a little bit of what maybe they were going through. So it just seemed like a really good fit and a really good match for my experience at that point and a way to help and honor Amanda. SPEAKER 4: Let's start by talking a little bit about Amanda. Tell us a little bit about her and her story. ELIZABETH CONROW: Sure. Amanda is one of five children. So she was the fourth of the five. Very silly, loved to wrestle with daddy, had the biggest blue eyes that anyone had ever seen. She was just a delight and a joy. And when she was 3 and 1/2, she was diagnosed with a brain tumor. And we were in the hospital for a number of days. She had surgery and a full resection. And we were told that if after a resection and radiation it never came back, that we would be good. But that if it came back, it would likely be terminal. So we knew at the outset that this was-- we're not dealing with a cold or a headache. We're dealing with something pretty serious. So she went through the surgery beautifully. She went through all of her radiation treatments. We did a clinical trial of chemotherapy. And six months from when she was diagnosed, we really felt like we did well. She did amazing. And we were ready to walk away from everything and just celebrate really, kind of getting through this. And her very first follow-up scan two weeks after she was done with treatment-- her doctor, Dr. Koronas, called us and let us know the very devastating news that the tumor had returned, and it was all in her brain and down her spine and too many places to count. So six months from diagnosis, we knew that this was not going to end well. And we kind of had to struggle to prepare for that, as well as to recognize that in that moment, she was still Amanda. And she was still doing really well. But we knew that time would be limited. And so we had actually a very good year and a half with her, as much as you can say that. She went through additional radiation treatments. And we continued to try other chemotherapies to do what we could. But ultimately, in February of 2015, surrounded by her family in our home she passed away. And we then had a whole new struggle with grief and really, coming to terms with a new life and a devastating loss. But she was a joy. And she was a joy throughout it. So it was not all terrible. SPEAKER 4: She sounds like an extraordinarily little girl. And in your essay, you start by telling us that just after she died, I think a few days or weeks, you're thinking about her, and you want to access her medical record through the portal that you had gotten used to using all the time. And then as you're logging in, you get the signal that says "access denied." And that triggered a tremendous wave of grief for you or something. Tell us a little bit about that and what you did with that. ELIZABETH CONROW: Sure. I think I didn't realize at the time that I was really just trying to hang on to who she was, that I was trying to connect with her in some way. I mean, it was just two weeks after she had died. And I just-- I wanted access to see, what did she weigh? Goodness, if I could recreate her in the form of a stuffed animal, how long would she be? How much would she weigh? And when I went to log in, it was a horribly devastating loss. It really felt like all of the sudden, I knew in my mind she was gone, but logging into this wealth of information that contained all of her blood counts and numbers and information that we had access so often, to all of a sudden have that gone. It was just a punch in the gut reminder that she truly was gone and that her records had disappeared. And she just wasn't here. And I wasn't prepared for that. I really thought that I'd be able to go in and find the things I wanted to find and have peace about that. It was shocking to me. And I remember feeling so embarrassed like, how can I call her doctor and say, I lost this access and I really need it? When she's not here, there's no reason. I don't need it. He's going to think I'm crazy. But it was important enough to me that I reached out to him. And I said, you've got to help me. How can I still access this? SPEAKER 4: So what happened next? ELIZABETH CONROW: So he-- actually, I was pretty surprised. I was the first parent he said, that had ever reached out to him with this issue. And I thought, how is that possible? How is that possible? And I'm guessing other parents had experienced it, but didn't know what to do, didn't know where to turn. And he was very compassionate. And he reached out to our online medical team, our portal team, and tried to figure out a way to reactivate the account for me. And got that done very quickly. And I said, well, it's not enough that it's been reactivated for me. No other parent can go through this. We have to come up with a plan. And so he really did work very hard with our team here to come up with something that would hopefully fix the problem. And it did. I know many families then, had their access turned back on manually, through a manual process that they put in place here. But I know that in the last six years, there have been several families who went to log in and had this experience. And unless you've been there and unless you've been the parent on the end of losing a child and then going in and having more taken away that you didn't expect, you don't understand the pain of that. And so I think the driving force behind me really wanting to write this article was to say, I know that this isn't just my institution. I know this is happening across hospitals. I know that when a child dies, this access is turned off. And that really hurts families. And if there's a way to bring attention to that and say, hey, we can do better, we need to. SPEAKER 4: Now that you have this perspective, I know that you have actually developed some training for oncology fellows and staff to train them a bit to talk with bereaved parents. What are some of the lessons that you want people to learn? ELIZABETH CONROW: That's a great question. I'm working with another doctor here. It's an advanced communication training where we're helping young doctors share bad news for the first time. And it's amazing to me how afraid people are to approach the bereaved. And I guess, having been through it, I see now how poorly we really do bereavement and how afraid we are to kind of approach someone who's lost a child and just wrap our arms around them and say, I'm so sorry. I'm here with you. Everybody wants to fix it. And there's no fix. And people don't want to approach a bereaved parent and bring up their child, because they don't want to make them sad. And what many people realize is that our children are always on our mind. You're not reminding us of anything we're not already thinking about. I was pretty surprised after losing Amanda that someone could be on my mind all the time-- all the time when they're not here anymore. You know, you think about people here and there, time to time, people in your life. But once she was gone, she was right at the front of my mind and still is, every moment of every day. And so if you see a bereaved person, it's OK to mention their child's name. I actually-- I go to the dentist. And the woman who cleans my teeth, every single time I go, will mention Amanda. And I know it's intentional. And I know it's because she wants me to know that she cares. And so those kinds of simple acts that people do as a way of recognizing and honoring the child whose passed means so much to a bereaved parent. SPEAKER 4: Just listening to you and the emotion in your voice, I imagine it must have been difficult in a way to go back to the same place where Amanda was treated and now, work with the staff and the clinicians who treated her. Tell us a little bit about how you've managed those relationships? ELIZABETH CONROW: One of the things I've learned, and that's partly through the role I have now in supporting other bereaved parents is that everyone grieves differently. And I know there are some parents who, the first time they come back to the hospital, it's really, really hard for them. And it's almost like a PTSD moment. For me, I appreciated and cared about all of the medical staff so much that coming back here to me, was a need. I needed to get back here and find a way to connect with these doctors and nurses and the people who cared for Amanda so beautifully while she was here. In those first months of grief, I showed up at the hospital-- I remember there was one day I showed up, and I felt so lost. But I just needed to see those nurses and give them a hug. And I felt awkward and out of place, because suddenly, I'm here and she's not with me. But I just needed to be in a place where she had been and a place that meant so much to us. So coming back here for me, certainly had its hard moments. And there have been challenges with it. But it's been a place of comfort. And being able to talk about Amanda with other parents has really been a gift for me, because it's not an opportunity you have all the time, especially six years later to talk about the child who died. So it's been a gift. SPEAKER 4: What is it like for you to be with other parents now who are going through what you experienced? How does your experience of loss influence your role as a counselor for a newly bereaved parents? ELIZABETH CONROW: I do a lot of listening. I do a lot of listening. And there are some parents who I'll call and follow up with and check in on. And they're good. And they don't need anything. And to be honest, I think when we first lost Amanda, if someone called me and I had never met them before, I might say I'm good. I don't really need any support right now. I've got my family. But there are some parents who I will call, and they will talk to me for 45 minutes. And they will cry. And they will say, you're the first person I've been able to talk to about this, because you understand and you've been through it. And so I'm able just to listen. And when they say things that they think are crazy, I wandered into my son's room and I slept in his bed last night, I say, I understand that. I once found Amanda's socks in a travel bag. And when I found them, I pulled them out and I slept with her socks. So there are things that people think are crazy that I'm able to help them normalize some of those feelings and understand that it's OK. SPEAKER 4: I don't think it's crazy at all. You speak with such knowledge and also such empathy. I wonder if you can help us also understand how you see the clinicians now-- the doctors and nurses who are actually are caring for these patients-- how you see them react to the death of a patient and how they maintain their relationships with what the parents once the kids are gone? ELIZABETH CONROW: It's been very interesting, I guess you could say to be on the other side of this, right? I was on the parents side before, where I was able to receive kind of the love and comfort and support of those who cared for Amanda. And I was able to see them showing up at the funeral and the ways that they would reach out and send notes and cards. But now, being on this side working with many of those same people, I've been really struck, even during our weekly meetings when they talk about different cases and different families and the losses that they've had, how significantly it does impact them, and how much those families and those children really do mean to them. And you know, I've often sat there now wondering, well, what did they say about my family? What did they say about us? And not a conversation I can go back to and sit in on. But I'm just struck by how much they really do care and how much it extends beyond this just being a job for most of-- all of them. SPEAKER 4: Yeah, in your role now, in your professional role, what kind of changes have you implemented in the way clinicians and parents communicate, or the way the system communicates with parents? ELIZABETH CONROW: At our hospital where I work, we have probably around 80 or 90 losses a year. And I came into this and said, I can support these families. And I can follow up with 80 or 90 families in a reasonable manner. But really, we need more parents doing this. We need to expand kind of what we're doing. So I've been trying to work toward implementing a mentoring program of sorts, where bereaved parents who are a few years out in their grief can come alongside newly bereaved parents and really support them, one on one for a year or a year and a half to help them get through that time, so that it isn't just me. And as great as I am, I really know that we can do much, much better by parents if we expand kind of the support network that we have. So I've been trying to grow some of our bereaved parent base. And those who can give input on some of the things we're doing-- because I know bereaved parents have so much wisdom and so much they can share from their own experiences. SPEAKER 4: You sound like a force. I wonder, have you connected with other hospitals, other teams? Or is your-- are you concentrated on your hospital and your community? ELIZABETH CONROW: The greatest support to me, actually has been St. Jude. They have such a fantastic program. Their bereavement, their parent support is really outstanding. Actually, just this week, I was able to sit in on one of their parent mentor trainings to kind of learn, well, how do you train your people, and what do you do? And so that was fantastic. So I'm really grateful-- grateful for their support. So they've been really wonderful. SPEAKER 4: I imagine Amanda's passing really affected your entire family and the other kids. Can you tell us a little bit about how all the other kids dealt with their grief? ELIZABETH CONROW: Sure. I know at the time when Amanda was diagnosed, my oldest was 9, and my youngest was 9 months. So everybody was pretty little. And they went through that at a really young age. And then when she passed, my oldest was 11 and my youngest was 3. So they were still little. And they had been through what I consider to be significant trauma in those early years. And when things first happened, I mean, I had a therapist describe it to me as a children's mobile that hangs over their bed you know, that once it becomes imbalanced, it just tips on its side. And that's the way things felt at home for quite a while. You know, just nothing felt right and things felt out of order. But kids are so resilient and so forward looking. And my kids really did beautifully through it. And I had someone tell me, well, kids are going to revisit grief. And they're going to come back to it from time to time. And it'll surprise you. And I will say, that's so true. You know, I would think everything was going along OK and everyone was coping well. And then, my daughter Jessica, who was closest in age to Amanda, would come down at 10 o'clock at night in tears because she was thinking about her sister. And that would catch me a little bit off guard. And my oldest just went away to college. And she's now 18. And she's had some conversations with me lately just about everything they went through and really revisiting some of her feelings about it all. And so they don't really get over it. But helping them to kind of process it and work through it and really, just talk about her. We talk about her constantly. She's a part of everything we do. We still make her a birthday cake. So we just keep her memory alive and celebrate her life together. But grief for kids is certainly different, and it doesn't end. But they are definitely forward looking and really can handle more than I think sometimes we give them credit for. SPEAKER 4: And your husband and you I hear have also been involved in some activities to talk about this publicly or teach others. What was that like for you as parents? ELIZABETH CONROW: There are a few things that we've really wanted to help move forward in terms of childhood cancer awareness and things that people can do to really help bereaved parents. And I think there's just so much that people don't know or understand. Many people don't realize how underfunded childhood cancer is. So it just means a lot to us to be able to kind of get that message out now. SPEAKER 4: I imagine there's so much work to do. And as we've had this great opportunity to chat about Amanda to remember her, to think about your experience and the amazing work you seem to be doing-- are there any final comments that you want to share with our listeners? ELIZABETH CONROW: It's an honor for me to really share this experience. And that bereaved parents need support, and they need to know that people care and remember, even as time goes on. So just take good care of those who know who are grieving. And love one another. SPEAKER 4: Thank you so much. This is Liz Conrow, author of Access Denied, published in Journal of Clinical Oncology. Thank you very much. Until next time. SPEAKER 1: Until next time, thank you for listening to this JCO's Cancer Stories, The Art of Oncology podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. While you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. JCO's Cancer Stories, The Art of Oncology podcast is just one of ASCO's many podcasts. You can find all of the shows at podcast.asco.org. [MUSIC PLAYING]

Dr. Hayes interviews Dr. Sarah Donaldson and her pioneering work in pediatric radiation oncology.   TRANSCRIPT SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. [MUSIC PLAYING] DANIEL HAYES: Welcome to JCO'S Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content and offering enriching insights into the world of cancer care. You can find all of these shows, including this one, at podcast.asco.org. Today my guest on this podcast is Dr. Sarah Donaldson. Dr. Donaldson has really been instrumental in much of the development of both, in my opinion, modern radiation oncology and especially related to pediatric radiation oncology. Dr. Donaldson was raised in Portland, Oregon. She received an initial undergraduate and nursing degree at the University of Oregon in Eugene and ultimately in Portland. After a few years working as a nurse with Dr. William Fletcher, who I hope we'll get a chance to talk about later, she elected to go to medical school and spend her first two years at Dartmouth and then finished with an MD from Harvard. She was planning to do a surgery residency at the Brigham Women's in Boston but then elected to do an internal medicine internship at the University of Washington and ultimately then a residency in radiation oncology at Stanford. After a residency and a few side trips along the way, she joined the faculty at Stanford and has remained there since. Dr. Donaldson has authored nearly 300 peer-reviewed papers, probably more than that by now. That was when I last looked at her CV a couple of weeks ago, and it seems like she brings them out every week. She has served as president of the American Board of Radiology, the Radiology Society of North America, and the American Society of Therapeutic Radiation Oncology, ASCO's sister organization, of course-- ASTRO. And she also served on the board of ASCO, the board of directors, from 1994 to 1997 and, in my opinion, perhaps as importantly, on the board of directors of the ASCO Foundation for over a decade. She has way too many honors for me to lay out here, but a few that caught my eye. Named after a distinguished scientist in the past, the Marie Curie award for the American Association of Women Radiologists, the Janeway Award from the American Radiation Society, and the Henry Kaplan Award for Teaching from Stanford. And she was the inaugural recipient of the Women Who Conquer Cancer Award from our own Foundation, the Conquer Cancer Foundation. Dr. Donaldson, welcome to our program. SARAH DONALDSON: Thanks so much, Dan. It's a privilege to be talking with you today. DANIEL HAYES: I hope I got all that right. It's pretty tough to cram the distinguished career you've had into about a minute. [LAUGHS] Anyway, I'm going to start out. So I've interviewed a lot of the luminaries and the people who really started our fields or even the subfield within our field, and you yourself had quite a journey. I know you started out as a nurse. Can you just give us some background about going to nursing school and then who and what influenced your decision to become a physician? SARAH DONALDSON: Yes, I did. I can, Dan, and it's an interesting story. Because when I grew up, girls that wanted to go on to college-- and it wasn't all girls didn't go to college, but I did. The three areas that one could do in that era were become a teacher or maybe a librarian or a nurse. And so I elected to become a nurse, and I went to nursing school. And I loved nursing school. I had a terrific time in nursing school, and along the line, I met the house officers and such and ultimately got to know a surgical oncologist. That was before surgical oncology was a field, but a young man from the Boston City Hospital training program, which was a very good surgical training program at the time, who was recruited to the University of Oregon to start a cancer program. His name was Bill Fletcher-- William S. Fletcher. And when I graduated from nursing school, Bill Fletcher was looking for a right arm assistant. He was looking for somebody to help him develop a cancer program. And he offered me a job, and the job was to work with him in the operating room, either scrubbing or circulating, to run his tumor board-- and that meant just scheduling it and taking notes and such-- and working with him in his tumor clinic. And in the tumor clinic, he was at that time beginning clinical trials, and Oregon was part of something that was called the Western Cancer Chemotherapy Group, which ultimately merged with SWOG. But at that time, his helper-- me-- filled out the forms, and we sent them to patients that were entered onto the study and got consents and measured lesions and that sort of thing. And I worked hand in hand with him. In addition to working with him in those clinical parameters, he gave me a little laboratory project, and so I worked with him in the lab and learned a little bit about small animal oncologic research, et cetera. And after a couple of years working with him, he suggested that I would be a better employee if I took some additional courses, and he suggested that maybe I should take physics because at that time he was doing isolation perfusion. I was running his pump oxygenator. He asked me what I would do if there was a pump failure. I didn't know. And he said, well, I think it would be good if you took physics. Well, the prerequisite to physics was organic. I hadn't had organic, and he was also working with radioisotopes in the lab. And he said, you could really be more helpful to me if you could work in the lab. That meant I had to take organic, and the prerequisite to organic was inorganic. To make a long story short, I took these series of classes in night school while I was working for Dr. Fletcher in the daytime. And then one night, I was working on my hamster project, and he said, I think you should go to medical school. I said, I can't go to medical school. And the long and the short of it was Dr. Fletcher thought I should go to medical school, and he made that possible for me. It's a very, very interesting story, but what it means is that I was mentored by somebody who was a visionary, and he could see a lot more than I could see. And he got me excited about medical school and everything that I knew about medical school is what he had taught me, so I of course wanted to be a cancer surgeon. And then after I went to medical school and I went to the same medical school he did, I just followed his advice. Every time I needed some guidance along the way, I asked Dr. Fletcher what I should do, and he told me what I should do, and I applied. And that's what I did. And so when I came time to choosing a specialty, I decided I would train in surgery, and I applied at the Brigham and was accepted into their surgical program. It was run by Francis Moore at the time. And that was a big deal because they hadn't had women in their surgical field, and I was very excited about all of that but feeling totally inadequate because I didn't think I knew enough medicine. And so I went to Dr. Moore and said, I think I'd be a better house officer if I knew some medicine. He says, OK, well, go take a medical internship, and we'll hold you a spot. So I went to the University of Washington and took general medicine, which was a very vibrant program, a really exciting program, and I just came alive in my internship. I loved everything about it. And then I decided I wanted to be an internist. So at this point, I was offered a position in Washington, and I had already accepted Dr. Moore in Boston. And I didn't know what to do, and I asked Dr. Fletcher what I should do. And he said, Sarah, the world of-- he called it radiotherapy at the time, but what we would call radiation oncology-- needs more surgically oriented physicians. I think you should go down and talk to my friends at Stanford. So I came down to Stanford. I met Henry Kaplan and Malcolm Bagshaw and the leaderships in the department, and including Saul Rosenberg, who was one of the people who interviewed me, and I left that day visiting at Stanford making a commitment that I would come to Stanford as a radiation oncologist. So I wanted to do everything, and I met some very inspiring people along the way, perhaps like you have in your own career. And it's for that reason that I am now excited about mentoring because it's a little bit of payback because somebody opened the door for me and made it possible for me to have a most gratifying professional career, and I would like to do that for as many people as I could. DANIEL HAYES: I love that story. And there were two things about it that came out. One is I normally don't like people who namedrop, but when you can namedrop the names you just dropped-- Bill Fletcher, who I consider really one of the early surgical oncologists, Henry Kaplan, Saul Rosenberg, Franny Moore. I was in Boston of 15 years, and he was a legend. He was not the chair anymore by any means. In fact, he passed away. But it was legendary. You should be doing these interviews instead of me. [LAUGHS] You've been there. SARAH DONALDSON: Well, it's all about where you are at the time you are and meeting the right people. I think so much of my gratifying career is just because I happened to be at the right place at the right time and met the right people. DANIEL HAYES: Well, the other thing I want to say is I always believed I don't trust people I interview who say they know exactly what they want to do. And the reason I say it that way is I have a young woman who's been a technician in my lab that just got into med school, and she sat with me and said, now, when I go there, should I tell them I know exactly what I want to do? Because she's interested in the oncology. Or should I go through my rotations and see what I like? And I said, I forbid you from going there knowing what you want to do. Go to your rotation. See what you like. You're going to run into somebody who just inspires you beyond words who-- I don't know-- maybe selling shoes. But whatever it is, become like her, and you'll be extraordinarily successful. So if there are young people listening to this, I think that your story, Dr. Donaldson, is a classic for that, the way you kicked around. And actually, you didn't tell us, but I'm going to have you tell us about your trip to Paris and that experience too and how that influenced you. SARAH DONALDSON: Oh, that was another wonderful opportunity. When I finished my training, it was 1972, and that's when America was in the Vietnam War. All of my classmates were being recruited to a mandatory draft and were having to go to Vietnam, and I felt like I too should be just like all of my best friends and I too should join the military and go to Vietnam. But that wasn't possible. Women couldn't do that. So I looked for things that I could do where I could do something useful, and I thought about joining the ship Hope and all sorts of fanciful things, but basically I was lost, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And at that time, there wasn't a carve-out of pediatric oncology as a specialty. It hadn't been defined, but there were people that were doing pediatrics. And as a resident, I had had a little rotation at the M.D. Anderson, and when I was in medical school, I had spent a fair amount of time at the Boston Children's, so I kind of knew a little bit about those institutions. But the thing was at Stanford, I knew that I wanted to be at Stanford. But Stanford didn't have a cancer program either. And so again, I went to Henry Kaplan and Malcolm Bagshaw-- at that point, Kaplan was head of the department, and Malcolm was his associate director. But they changed positions about a year after that. So I trained under both of them, really, but I went to Dr. Kaplan and said, I'm interested in pediatrics. And I said that because we didn't have a program at Stanford and that was like a carve out that nobody had addressed yet. And he said, oh, well, if you want to study pediatric cancer, you have to go to the Institute Gustavo Roussy and train under Odile Schweisguth. And I said, no, I don't speak French. I can't do that. I'd like to go to London because I like the theater. And he said, no, no, no, no, no, that's not the way it is. If you want to be a pediatric doctor, you have to go learn pediatrics and learn to think like a pediatrician, and that means you have to go and train under Odile Schweisguth. She was at the Grand Dame of pediatric oncology. She took care of all the children in Western Europe. And so I went to Institute Gustavo Roussy to be a fellow in pediatric oncology, although I did spend some time on the radiotherapy unit as well. But that's where I learned pediatric cancer because I learned from Odile. And in French, there's a formal and an informal, and I never understood the formal because when you talk to kids, you talk in the familiar form. So I was just talking to and not [SPEAKING FRENCH]. I would just say, [SPEAKING FRENCH] and such. [INAUDIBLE] French. And that's how I learned French. More importantly, I learned the biology of cancer from Odile. It was largely observational. And I learned a lot of late effects of children who were cancer survivors. So when I came back to Stanford, at that time Mal Bagshaw was chair, and he said, well, why don't you work on starting a cancer program? We'd like to have a cancer program. So I worked with the pediatric cancer doctor at Stanford. His name was Dan Wilber, and he had just come from the M.D. Anderson. And the two of us started a cancer program at Stanford. And so I've been kind of doing that ever since, of doing pediatric cancer. So I would say my skill set came along just because the right people told me where to go at the right time. DANIEL HAYES: Were the pediatricians welcoming, or did they resent the fact that you'd never been a pediatrician? SARAH DONALDSON: Malcolm Bagshaw gave me the clue to that by saying the only way the pediatricians will accept you is by having them accept you is one of their own. So you have to learn to think like a pediatrician, and then they will accept you onto their team as one of theirs because pediatric doctors are very possessive about their patients, and pediatric cancer doctors are possessive about their patients. So it worked for me. But it worked because I had had this special training under Odile Schweisguth, who was a general pediatrician, and so I was accepted because I was at that point thinking like Odile thought because that's what she taught me how to do. So I always felt like I was accepted by the pediatric cancer doctors who then became the pediatric oncologists because that field didn't really open up for a couple of years later. DANIEL HAYES: For our listeners, Dr. Donaldson and I have not met before, and I certainly have never worked with her. But she's talking, she's glossed over that when you work with the French, you really have to speak French. When you work with the pediatricians, you really have to speak pediatrician. And you've managed to do both of those. I don't know anybody who's been that successful. I should take a sabbatical and come work with you. [LAUGHS] SARAH DONALDSON: Well, I'll tell you, Dan, there was one wonderful thing that happened because shortly after I was working at Stanford doing pediatrics, our dean wanted to recruit some more people and buff up our pediatric cancer unit. And he recruited Michael Link, who had just come out of his training at the Dana Farber. And so Michael and I started working together his first day as an assistant professor at Stanford, and pediatric oncology is a team sport. Pediatric radiation oncology is a team sport. And I had a wonderful teammate, Michael Link, with whom I worked very well, and we became very fast friends. And we did pediatric lymphoma and sarcoma, bone sarcoma, and soft tissue sarcoma, and all sorts of stuff. And I had a wonderful, wonderful colleague working with Michael Link. So one of the keys to my most gratifying part of my career at Stanford has been working with Michael Link and his associates. DANIEL HAYES: As an aside, by the way, Michael and I overlapped just a little bit at Harvard, but then he proceeded me as president of ASCO by two years, and we got to be pretty close friends during that period of time. And I echo your fondness for him. He's just an amazing human being, as far as I was concerned. And he's one of the-- he may be-- I'm trying to think, has there other pediatricians that have been president of ASCO? I'm not-- SARAH DONALDSON: No, he was the first. Yeah, he's the only one to date. DANIEL HAYES: Yeah. And he left a big stamp on the society in terms of-- we always had some pediatrics involved-- you, especially-- during the years, but as president, he was able to leave a big footprint of what we do. So he was terrific. I'd also like you to talk a little bit about the early days of the co-operative groups. You threw out that you were in the Western Group that became part of SWOG, and what were the hurdles and obstacles to getting all these folks to work together? And what do you see the pros and cons of the cooperative groups in the country? SARAH DONALDSON: I know the cooperative groups mainly through the lens of the pediatric cooperative groups. I mean, I can tell you about the adult ones, but I really know the pediatric ones. And at the beginning, there was one, and then there were two. And we worked competitively, and then ultimately the pediatric doctors learned early on that the children they took care of had rare tumors, and no one physician had a whole lot of experience with any cancer. For example, this tells the story well. When Hal Maurer was chairman of Pediatrics at Virginia, he had a child with rhabdomyosarcoma. And he called his friend Ruth Hein, who was at Michigan, and said, Ruth, I've got this child with rhabdomyosarcoma. Have you ever treated a child like this? And Ruth said, oh, I had one patient, but I think you should call Teresa because Teresa, I think, had a patient. And so Teresa Vietti was at Washington University, and so Hal Maurer and Teresa Vietti and Ruth Hein and a few other really, really pioneers started to throw their lot together and decided that the way they could answer a question about these rare tumors is by deciding what was the question of the day and working collaboratively. And then Hal Maurer became the first chair of what was then called the Innergroup Rhabdomyosarcoma Study, which has now been merged into the other pediatric groups. But that same process that worked for rhabdomyosarcoma was then employed for Wilms tumor, and then subsequently down the line, brain tumors and all the other solid tumors. And of course, St. Jude was doing this with their leukemia studies and Dan Finkel, and then Joe Simone did it with leukemia. They got everybody to join in on their team, decide together around the table by consensus what is the question that we want to have an answer for, and then just treat all the patients in a consecutive fashion, analyze those, and then take that step and go on and build to the next step. That's how the pediatricians have done it because their cancers are so rare that one person doesn't have very much experience. They have to throw their lot together and work collaboratively. So they don't work competitively. They work collaboratively. DANIEL HAYES: This is very similar to the stories I of course heard from Drs. Frei and Holland that they came ultimately to CALGB to be after a couple of mis-starts. But it's one of the things I worry about COVID. It's not the same Zooming with somebody or talking on the phone as it is sitting around dinner and just saying, maybe we could do this and make it work. So I'm hoping young people are listening to this and saying, OK, maybe we can start something new that a bunch of us work together and get things done. That's a really great story. You were early on and ended up taking both diagnostic and therapeutic radiology boards, correct? When they were combined? SARAH DONALDSON: No, no I didn't. Radiology was combined at that time, but Stanford was one of the few institutions that had a carve-out for radiation oncology without diagnostic training, and I wasn't in the first class. I was in the fourth or fifth class, so my formal training was only in what was called radiation therapy, now called radiation oncology. So it was one department, and I worked collaboratively with a diagnostic radiologist because I knew nothing about image interpretation-- nothing at all. So I'd see an X-ray. I didn't know how to interpret it, and I'd have to go and ask for some help. But they were like our best friends. But the diagnostic people could take the picture, but the therapists had access to the patients. So that made all the difference in the world because we really had access to the material, the clinical material or the blood or the bone marrow or the biopsy specimens or whatever it was, and allowed us to do studies. But to clarify, no, I was not. I do not have formal training in diagnostic radiology, although I have worked with them so closely now that I feel like they're all my brothers because you cannot do radiation oncology without collaborating closely with the imagers. DANIEL HAYES: And my first interview was with Sam Helman. This has been three or four years ago. And he was still lamenting the split because he thought it was to learn both-- and for the reasons you just said. If you don't know where it is to shoot your bean, you can't shoot your bean. That's not exactly what he said but something like that. On our side, they team hematology and oncology. Like you, I never got trained in hematology. I only trained in solid tumor oncology, which has not hurt me in any way. In fact, in many respects, I focus my efforts on things I seem to know about and let somebody else worry about blood clotting. Of all the things you're well known for-- and again, it was hard for me to get it all into a minute or two, but probably teaching and mentoring. And in this conversation, I see why. Tell me how you think that's evolved in your field, especially in radiation oncology, teaching and mentoring, and the importance of the things you've done-- and perhaps some of the people you have trained yourself and you're proud of. SARAH DONALDSON: Well, when I think of all the things that I love about my professional career, I love taking care of patients. And I've had very joyous experiences of watching pediatric cancer patients grow up and watching them in their process and treating them when they're toddlers and then getting invitations to graduations and wedding invitations and baby announcements and following through that. That's very, very gratifying. But the single most important and most gratifying part of what I do is the volumetric feedback and gratification from training residents because one patient is one patient, but one trainee then goes into academic medicine and that person has 30 or 300 or 3,000 trainees. And you see your impact is just explosive. And Stanford has had a training program in radiation oncology from the very, very beginning. It was one of the first programs that did train in radiation oncology, so a lot of talented people have come through Stanford. They need to have what Bill Fletcher did for me, which was open doors and help them with networking and giving them an opportunity and giving them some guidance and being their new best friend. When your trainees trust you like that, then you can really, really have a relationship, and you can really help them. And so I am very, very, very proud of our trainees that are now all over the place as cancer center directors or directors of departments or divisions that are doing what they're doing. You just meet the best of the best. That is the most gratifying part of-- maybe it's because that's what I'm doing now, but it's the most gratifying part of medicine that I've experienced. DANIEL HAYES: This is the third time I've said this on this call-- I hope there are young people listening, and I hope they're looking for a mentor and they can find someone as generous and trusting and helpful as you have been. SARAH DONALDSON: Dan, let me just say one little thing. DANIEL HAYES: Yeah. SARAH DONALDSON: It was extremely helpful to me-- and wonderful recognition for ASCO-- to provide the opportunity that I received the Women Who Conquer Cancer Mentoring Award. Because when I won that award, I was the inaugural-- but when I won that, all of a sudden people thought that I knew something about mentoring. I'm not certain I did know anything about mentoring, but I was asked to talk about it and asked to give advice, et cetera. And it gave me a carve out that was quite novel at the time, and now, of course, it's a mandated requirement in every training program, et cetera, but it wasn't then. And for me, it was just to return what Bill Fletcher did for me. The only way I can say is that it's a pay out, and it's so gratifying. It just makes you happy to get out of bed every morning and interact with the people you do interact with. DANIEL HAYES: He was pretty young when he began to mentor you. And I think having seen and been mentored and mentored other people, I always worry about a young person trying to mentor because you've got your own career to worry about, and it's hard not to be selfish when you're building a career in academics. He must have been a remarkable-- is he still active? Is he still around? He must have been a remarkable guy. SARAH DONALDSON: He was a remarkable guy, and no, he passed away. But that was true. And that is true because junior faculty are busy making their own professional career, and they don't have time. They're busy on their own path, and it's a hard path to go on. So most junior faculty don't really have very much time to do formal mentoring. But in Bill Fletcher's case, we worked hand in hand as sort of partners. And so I think, in some ways, I was helpful to him because I could do literature searches for him. I could write the first draft of his paper. I could write the first draft of his grant. I filled out the forms. I did a lot of things that were labor saving for him, but for me, what was he doing for me? He was teaching me to suture. He was teaching me how to resect normal [INAUDIBLE]. He was teaching me lymph node drainage from cancers. He was teaching me about drug metabolism, methotrexate, and phenylalanine mustard. And 5-FU was an experimental agent. So was vincristine-- those kinds of things. So I learned a lot from him just in the ordinary practice of taking care of the patients. DANIEL HAYES: By the way, two stories I read about you-- one is how you met Henry Kaplan, and the second is the first paper you wrote with him. Can you give us those two? And then I think we've got to sign off. SARAH DONALDSON: Well, let me tell you about the first paper I wrote with him because the other one is too funny. Everybody will laugh at me. The first paper I wrote with Henry Kaplan, I worked really, really hard on it. It had to do with bacterial infections in patients with Hodgkin's disease because we were doing splenectomies on everybody, and they were getting pneumococcal bacteremias and meningitis. And I was running the ward at that time. I was taking care of a lot of patients that were sick. So I was writing up this experience. And I wrote what I thought was the perfect paper because, see, Kaplan had a high bar, and you didn't want to disappoint him. So I wrote the paper that I thought was perfection. I had gone through a lot of drafts. And I gave it to him, and he returned it to me the next day. He read it that night. But I only looked at the first page because the first page looked like a blood bath. Everything he wrote, he wrote with a red pen. And there was red writing all over the first page. I couldn't see any white paper. It was all red comments. DANIEL HAYES: [LAUGHS] SARAH DONALDSON: And I went through-- I don't know-- 24 different drafts of that paper finally being published. And so one of the things I try to do with residents now is to teach them, you have to have a hypothesis. You have to make certain you have a database. You have to have a long term follow up. You have to understand statistics, and you have to write a paper knowing what you're doing. You don't just start writing. You do a section and a section and you build it with evidence. So I enjoy doing editing, and I think I can help some trainees focus their thinking in terms of writing a grant proposal or a manuscript that's worthwhile publishing. My introduction to Henry Kaplan-- there are many, many funny stories about them, but to end them all, I will have to say that he was very, very, very good to me. He provided a lot of opportunities and was a huge role model. He taught by scarification. We were all scared to death of him, but he was absolutely a wonderful, wonderful huggable person, if you felt like you could hug him. We didn't do that very often. We might have hugged Saul Rosenberg, but we didn't hug Henry Kaplan. But they were both helpful to me, especially in understanding lymphomas. DANIEL HAYES: For those of you listening who don't know who Henry Kaplan was, I think it's fair to say he was one of the first people to prove you could cure Hodgkin's disease with radiation. Do you agree? Is that a fair statement? SARAH DONALDSON: Yes, that's where his name came. But of course, what Kaplan did was he recruited Saul Rosenberg, and the two of those worked hand in hand, and they brought to Stanford what we call the Lymphoma Staging Conference, which was a combined modality conference where we talked together over each patient. And together, they wrote clinical trials that were institution-based clinical trials. So what Kaplan did was he did a lot of technical work with the linear accelerator, but that was just a tool. My way of thinking is his most important contribution was the importance of combined modality therapy and understanding what your colleagues can contribute and what you can contribute in doing it as a team. DANIEL HAYES: And I will encourage anyone who's listening to this to go back to the website and listen to my interview with Dr. Rosenberg who laid that out in spades. And the first few patients he treated, he had a chair outside his exam room. He would examine the patient, take them out, put them in the chair, start the IV himself, go mix the chemotherapy, hang it up, and then see the next patient in the room while the first patient was getting chemotherapy. It's a little different now. [LAUGHS] Anyway, thank you so much. By the way, I have a copy of Dr. Kaplan's book on Hodgkin's disease, which was the Bible when we were training. You can't see it because it's on my bookshelf behind my camera, but I still open it up quite a while, even for a breast cancer guy. It was a classic. I also want to say, it's very clear to me you're a nurse at heart. You've been a fabulous physician and researcher and mentor, but your love for people shines through, so congratulations. I think that's terrific. SARAH DONALDSON: Thank you so much. DANIEL HAYES: Thanks for taking your time to speak with me today. I'm sure people are going to be thrilled to listen to this, and thanks for all you've done to feel. It's just really remarkable-- and what you've done for ASCO and the Foundation, which is a big, big, payback. Thanks for everything. SARAH DONALDSON: Thank you. DANIEL HAYES: Until next time, thank you for listening to this JCO's Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology Podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. While you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. JCO's Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology Podcast is just one of ASCO's many podcasts. You can find all the shows at podcast.asco.org. [MUSIC PLAYING]

Transcript:Speaker 0 (0s): Hello, my friends. And welcome back to another edition of the TrueLife podcast. I've been on vacation for a little bit, but I'm bad. I was thinking about you guys. I hope everything is going well. I hope your COVID free care-free and free to do what it is you think is right. I'm going to start off with a quick joke today. I hope it makes you laugh and that makes you smile. There's a businessman and he has started a company in his garage. He's been working hard on it for the last six months. And lo and behold, he gets a call from an investment banker in the big apple, New York city. The investment banker says, I have noticed your product and I would like to make you an offer. Can you come and meet me and my team in New York to hear that offer a gentleman says sure, a day of the, he exits off the plane. The day of the meeting, he's there pretty early. However, he finds his flight was delayed. And now as he's exiting the airport, he's beginning to scramble. He realizes that he is supposed to meet these investment bankers in front of Carnegie hall. However, he's never been in New York city. And so he is beginning to worry. As he comes out of the airport, he sees a young woman exiting a cab and she is carrying a violin case. So he runs up, she's dressed nice. And he says, maybe she'll know. And so he runs up to her and he says, ma'am do you play in the symphony? And she says, well, yes, I do. He says, fantastic. Could you tell me how to get to Carnegie hall? And she pauses for a minute. She looks him up and down and she says, practice, practice. I thought that was kind of funny. I'm so fascinated by all the things that are happening in our lives today. And it has been such a, a culture shock. It has been such a cultural divide, a natural disaster or a man-made disaster, or maybe both. If man has in fact part of nature, then maybe it's both. And that's kind of a subject that I wanted to get in today. I've been revisiting this book called the master in his emissaries, and it's about left right brain lateralization. And what goes on in between those two hemispheres, they've done plenty of research on victims that have had lesions in their left brain, in lesions, in their right-brain. And for those of you who have done some research on it, I'm sure you're aware of this. And for those of you who have yet to do some research on it, I hope to peak your interest. Let me just give you a couple examples of what happens when there's trauma on each side of the brain. So when there's trauma on the left side of the brain, it tends to cause people to forget how to speech or ruin their speech patterns or makes it very difficult for them to communicate via their speech. They can be paralyzed on the right side of their body. However, if the stroke or the trauma victim can overcome this, they can teach themselves how to speak again. And they can at times learn how to walk again or gain mobility in the side of their body. That is paralyzed, which would be the right side. If indeed the trauma's on the left, a lesion on the right side is completely different. It, it causes someone to no longer be able, excuse me, to no longer be able to understand the in implicitness has that a word. It causes people to be that changes their worldview. You see the right brain, the right hemisphere of the brain holds all the context and concepts, the underlying meaning what the situation is telling us, the body language, the, the humor, the, all these parts of communication that aren't words are done in the right hemisphere of the brain. And there's been some fascinating, fascinating experiments done. One area that I wanted to talk about, and this is just kind of coming off of that book and kind of my own theories about what's happening again. The guy that the book that I'm referencing is the master in his Emissary, in his, by Ian McGilchrist. It's a fascinating read. He's actually got another book coming out pretty soon. I highly suggest that you get an opportunity to check it out. I think you'll enjoy it. The right hemisphere of the brain has these just beautiful notions of an art and seeing the world in a way that is not hyper analytical. It may help to see it may help to follow this conversation. If you think of the left hand or the left side of the brain is a scalpel. That's constantly dissecting. It's constantly criticizing. It's constantly making sense of it's kind of crazy, but I like to think of it as like this arrogant, cocky, no, at all. And I know that seems kind of hard. Like, you know what to think about yourself like that, but it's necessary and it's necessary for the left side of the brain to act that way. Like it needs to be able to categorize stuff so that you can function in this world. It needs to be able to say like, okay, is that a, is that something I could eat? Or does it not? You know, what has to be a definitive? Whereas the right hemisphere of the brain is trying to see things the way they've never been seen before and say, why not? It's constantly looking for a little idiosyncrasies or looking for little bits of detail that are very difficult to describe. And in fact, when you even talk about the right hemisphere of the brain, it's difficult because you have to translate it in the left side of the brain. The right side is the master. That left side is the Emissary. It's another good way to think about it. Any type of a metaphorical thinking is usually done on the right when you find yourself, here's a, here's a, here's an interesting thing. If you find yourself grasping for language, see the term grasp to reach out on the left side of the brain. That means to actually pinch something or grab it, or to reach out, to get something. But on the right side of the brain, the grasp means to get a hold of and understand in reaching out can mean more than just extending your arm. It can mean trying to connect with something else beside yourself. Okay? So that's kind of a little bit of a background now that I'm going to try to tie this into another thought, a couple of thoughts I've been having, especially since this pandemic is, you know what you should really, if you can do this, here's a strategy of a music. If you can try to see yourself in everybody, around you, if you can't begin to understand that the person you're talking to is a different version of you, right? And I promise you, regardless of how different that person is, you can see something and then that you recognize. And if you can't, then here's one for you to have. Everybody can learn. Everybody can learn. Everybody can learn. That is a good first step. If you're having difficulties identifying yourself in someone or something else, you can start there. But once you begin looking at it, that way you can see yourself in anybody else, you can see yourself in a tree. You can see yourself in the ocean. You can see yourself in a porcupine, and if you could begin doing it, I think it's a great exercise to understand where we're going wrong in life. I'm not saying, I think we're all equal, cause we're not, we're not. That's the noble lie. We're not born equal. That's all bullshit. But there is parts of us and everything else around us. And that to me is the unifier. That is, that has a very good beginning, a building block in order to build back better. Right? There is a great quote. My wife told me, and I forgot where she picked it up from, but Speaker 1 (9m 47s): It says last year I was, how does it go? He says, last sure. Speaker 0 (9m 57s): I was very coy. And I thought I could change the world. As I've grown older, I've become and Y's and realize that I can change myself. Right? And that quote is everywhere. That's gone. D and B the change you want to see in the world. And this is a good start to it. Seeing yourself in the other is a great way to start. And once you do that, at least for me, like up a gun too. And I'm beginning to have new ideas open to me, or maybe these ideas have always been there, but it's becoming more easy to see like the scales falling from your right. Like it's, it's all fractal. It's all fractal. And let me give you, let me try to, let me try to tie this together a little bit. So the left side of the brain is analytical. The right side of the brain is conceptual. Look at all the debates we're having in our society. It seems that on one hand, we are this, it seems to me, you could make an argument that there's like this technocratic bureaucracy that has been evolving and growing and becoming ever more assertive. When you think of the way Eric Schmidt, mark Zuckerberg and Larry Ellison in this new class of oligarchs are beginning to emerge as the world leaders, people from like the world economic forum, CEO, these large multinational corporate CEO types, not all is that I would never say it all, but a large percentage of these people, for whatever reason, B it, they were born too. A good family be that they're smarter than everybody else. Whatever reason it is that they find themselves in this position, they have begun to see the world at a similar way. And since they control the authority and the money they are able to, well, I think that they're trying to look at the world the way they look at their company. And when they do that, the way they make sense of the world, the way they make sense of their country or their company is, and even their country is to see it from an analytical point of view. They're using this left brain, break it down to a common denominator and move from there, right? Believe the science trust the science. If we can harness all the resources, we can make things. Even for people, you know, it's this, it's this analytical, broken down formula. That make sense. It's on paper. No, that's why employees that large corporations, employees have employee numbers and they've, they had extrapolated the they theory of interchangeable parts. And they've applied that to the human being kind of making us an a instead of a human being. We become a human appearing and they've are they broken down our society and our world on the left hemisphere of the brain. It's this rep re representation, representation, representation. Think about that word, re present, represent re present. When they look at the world's problems, they represent them. They try and find a solution. They, they look at the problem and then they apply. They apply their potential solution to a representation of the problem. That's basically what an experiment is, right? But let me tell you why that's wrong. Anytime you represent any time you re present something, it's no longer the actual thing you're trying to solve. Instead of solving the issue, you're solving a representation of the problem and that's different. And if I see two people fighting and then I go, wow, how can I say next time? I see that? How can I stop it? Or let's say, if I see two people fighting and I'd run over and I was a gay, you dummies stop fighting, or let's say, I don't do anything. And I go home and that I draw two people fighting. And I say, how could I stop that? See, I'm, I'm re presenting the problem, but that's not the actual problem. That's just a drawing of the problem. Right? If I do that drawing, I could come up with 10 different ways to solve it. I could run over there and stop it. I could yell at them. I'd throw a rock at them. I could do all of these things to try to stop those people from fighting. However, I am unable to map out or come up with a solution because I can't factor in the unknown. In reality. If I went over there and try to stop it, one of those guys would pull a knife and stab me. That's not in my drawing. You see? So when you come up with a solution to represent a problem, you're leaving out all the unknowns. That's the, that is in a nutshell, the whole problem with our world, that we have these people, that positions of authority that are pretty smart, but they're using this analytical scalpel of the left hemisphere of the brain to solve problems via represented . And the more we go down this road, the more the people in positions of authority use this analytical, left hemisphere scalpel. The further we get away from it, right? The right hemisphere of the brain is taking in so much information. And it seems that at least in our society, the problems that we see are due to the atrophie of the right hemisphere. And that might not be a literal atrophie and that it's getting smaller. But it seems to me that it's a being applied less to the actions of our world. And yeah, I'm going to kind of go out here. I'm going to, I know that this might be a little bit crazy already, but what if, what if like what we are seeing right now, if you think about our planet, the whole globe, if you think about our planet and our a globe as a brain, in a large percentage of the people are left him, his feet, like are or make it like this. The tech, the technocratic CEO political class is like the left hemisphere and all the people on the right or like the right hemisphere. It's very easy to say all, all these people, he's working, people, all these people in third world countries, they are dumb. They're stupid. They're useless eaters, but that's not true. The truth is they're not being allowed. They don't have a seat at the table. They're not being allowed to apply solutions that they have thought of Speaker 1 (17m 46s): It's as if the left has caged the right hemisphere, this political Speaker 0 (17m 55s): SCIO class, this technocratic class has decided to put a cage around all the working people to try to enslave the working people so that it doesn't have to face the fact that it is wrong. All these protests around the world is like the right hemisphere exploding. And the left hemisphere has no idea what to do. And so it's constantly making up excuses for the reasons that the world is so shitty. And that's what our politicians, the bankers, the technocratic class, the world, economic forum, the trilateral commission. That's what all these fucking dummies are doing are sitting around making excuses so that they don't have to change the world in which they live. They refuse. They flat out refuse. Every person in that class seems to be tainted by this desire to never lose anything, to never give up anything they have. Instead they want to steal it and rape and pillage people that work for a living. And they indoctrinate people through schools and they indoctrinate their kids'. And they sit around in lie to themselves about that, how they are not privileged, but they're smarter. And that's what this internal struggle is. So in a way, it just goes back to what I was saying, as far as if you can see yourself in the other. And if you can see the microcosm as the macro and the macro as the micro, if it, if it is fractured, what I think you could make the case for us as individual human beings, but you know, a lot like individual thoughts, some of us are on the right hemisphere. Some of us were on the left hemisphere and that if both hemispheres, the brain are fighting. If the, if the left is struggling for dominance, because it doesn't want to face the truth, that it doesn't know everything. It's afraid. It'll if it, if it admits that it doesn't know everything it's going to lose. If it's, if we're unable to come together and work as a whole, then we're unable to grow as an organism. I think we're running from the very thing that would free up what it's this unwillingness to admit that we're different. It's this unwillingness to admit that everybody should be able to do the same thing. It's this soft tyranny of equality. It's not true. It's not true. And it's a painful truth to know, but it's a liberating truth to know. And the more we allow our kids, the more we allow our colleagues, the more we allow people, we love to believe these lies that we live in this world, where there should be equity and equality. Maybe there can be more equality and equity, but it can't be forced. No, you can't create policies that say this. These people all have to be the same and they have to have the equality of outcome. You can have the equality of opportunity, but not that equality of outcome. It's just becoming a so perverse way that I don't see how we can continue to move forward without collapsing. It's like we it's like were a big, giant game of Jenga. And the only way that we've grown so fast, economically socially, is by pulling the blocks from the foundation and placing them on top. And anybody who's ever played Jenga knows that the higher you build, the more you use that strategy of pulling from your foundation to put on top, the more unstable the tower becomes on another note like that, it kind of scares me to think that maybe the only way to really transition out of this is to have a collapse. Maybe the foundation has been so undermined that the only way to move forward is to start over. And it's a scary thing to think about if there's a lot of evidence that that's exactly what's happening. And if you look at how many trillions of dollars have been printed and given out to the biggest institutions, if you look at the financial system, especially in the United States where I'm from, you know, you can see that the, the government, the federal reserve is not supposed to loan directly to the government, but they just give money to their own banks. And then the banks give them a, you know what I mean? Like it's just this big circle jerk. And it blows my mind to think about how many trillions of dollars we're spending and how little of that money really trickles down to the individual. Like, where is it all going? What we're printing trillions of dollars, you know? And it makes me think for every person that earns a dollar, probably a person that gets a dog and that doesn't deserve it. That means there's somebody who deserves it, that doesn't get it. You know, that's the, that's this predator class that was just pulling from the foundation and putting it right on top and then taken the spoils and putting in their pocket. I'm going to try to do some more research on the left, right brain hemispheres in and break it down. I really think that it's a really good metaphor for a world. That's a really interesting idea that can at least help people begin to try and reestablish a connection with beauty and another, as I talk about it, I began thinking more, you know, if you look at some of the like agenda 30 or agenda 21, or the great reset, what you see from the master class of people or the, the people who have been born into prestigious authority, you know, they would like to push people into smart cities. They want to track people. They want to get them away from nature. And the more you do those things, the more you strengthen the analytical left hemisphere, you know, it's, it's only in nature that we begin to have these ideas about how the world really works. It's only when you're in nature, that you're surrounded by beauty and you can feel this connection to the earth. And that's the right hemisphere. That's this conceptual thinking that these are these ideas that at first are very difficult to explain and rightfully so because the left hemisphere has the speech centers. And I think being away from nature, most people, you know, they live in a box and they get in their box car and drive to work. They need, they have a box lunch and then they get back in their box and they drive back to the box in which they live. And maybe just, maybe they have a cylinder to change their state of mind. You know, we can be creatures of habit. We can be creatures that are stimulus response, and that's the left hemisphere. But what we really are is creatures of creativity. That's when the world's the best. When you think about the Renaissance and the artwork and the sculpture and the beauty, the poetry and the language like this is, this is the dominant right hemisphere. This is a society that's healthy, a society that is creating beauty and is not just creating for creating a loan, right? When you begin creating just for the sake of financial procurement, then that, which you begin creating becomes meaningless. It becomes a habit strictly for the habits, purpose alone. It does that make sense? Like we're building there's right now. It seems to me, there's no goal except for the goal of expanding. And that is pretty much a cancer, right? This is uncontrollable growth that continues to growth for growth's sake. If we could just draw that down and take a look at ourselves in the mirror as a, as a world of what, what the fuck are we doing? What are we doing? Just stop and think about that for me. Like, what the fuck are we doing? We just get up, go to work, consume, come home. Like, what the fuck are we doing? And there's all this crazy rhetoric about this billionaire oligarchs, a Jeff Bezos, his company didn't make a fucking dime until he got a contract from the government. Don't tell me this. Guy's the fucking smartest man on the planet. Like, okay, how about this? Here's a paradigm shift. Look at all these fucking billionaires. And they're, they're presented. They're represented to us as if some there's some sort of savior, as they say, there's some sort of a God-like creature that they have created. All of these things. They've created all these jobs. And, but what I see when I see bayzos, when I see Elon Musk, what I see is the parable of the prodigal son. What I see is this story of a man who wished he could have everything and made a deal with the devil and didn't realize he's going to lose everything. Look at him, look at Jeff Bezos. That guy is so he looks like a fucking, the saddest child that I've ever seen in my life. They look at pictures of him before he got money. And then after he had money, it's like, he rubbed a magic lamp and he got all his wishes, but he didn't understand what he was going to give up. When you look at him prior to the government contract, he was like this skinny kind of nerdy guy that had this fascination with books and loved all stuff. And then all of a sudden he gets, he gets a government contract and he starts taking testosterone. He starts fucking kind of a bulk it up a little bit. And then he loses his wife. I mean, you fucking lose control of your relationships. You lose your wife, you lose your kid. Same thing with Musk, right? How many times that I've been married? How many kids does he have? Like that guy is not a hero that these are stories. These are ideas. And they're being shown to us. And what not to do, let's say that they are incredibly intelligent. I'm sure that they are. What lesson are they teaching the world? Hey, look at me. I can buy everything. And while the world around me fucking crumbles, I'm going to fuck and try to go into a space, but I'm going to, they're not even going in this space. They're going 50 miles into the air. It's like a, a really expensive, hot air balloon ride. Hey, congratulations. Fuckheads, you've spent billions of dollars on a fucking giant carnival ride. Congratulations. Meanwhile, the middle horsepower, the, all the, the money and love and everything that was given to you to build a better future. You spent on a fucking carnival ride. You got Magic Beans. Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson, the Ross child, all these fucking billionaires. The people in the world have given you everything. And you gave us Magic Beans. No wonder your kids are fucked up. The wonder Bezos is divorce. No wonder bill gates has divorced. They're a fucking wives. Hate them. Think about that. The woman you love more than anything in the world fucking hates you. Like you took a wrong turn. Fuck heads. Look at these ruling families. What pieces of garbage they are all. They have his money. All they have all of these intrinsic, a fucking pieces of paper. That a reality. You don't mean shit. They're nothing. They're fucking up our planet. I think that there's gotta be a way for us to change the channel. Like I truly believe like what if we just all stopped using Amazon for one day? What if everybody just tweeted at bill gates, you are a horrible person. We gave you everything and you gave us Magic Beans. If you guys read this, just start tweeting Magic Beans to all the billionaires. Elon Musk, Magic Beans, bill gates, Magic Beans, Jeff Bezos, Magic Beans. They don't want your Magic Beans. Politicians, Magic Beans. Speaker 1 (32m 38s): Get it. Trump Pelosi, Clinton, Obama, magic fucking beans, man. That's all you got. You got nothing. You got nothing. We trusted you with everything and you gave us Magic Beans. McCrone president Z fucking Magic Beans, man. 

Recently, H.E.B. grocery stores have announced a massive recall of millions of pounds of chicken products due to the risk of listeria contamination. Listeria is a deadly pathogen that can cause illness and is of particular risk to pregnant women. If you have purchased these possibly listeria contaminated HEB chicken products, return them immediately. If you ate one and feel ill, seek medical attention now. Transcript: Speaker: Welcome to Hill Law Firm Cases, a podcast discussing real-world cases handled by Justin Hill and the Hill Law Firm. For confidentiality reasons, names and amounts of any settlements have been removed. However, the facts are real, and these are the cases we handle on a day-to-day basis. [music] There are not many law firms in San Antonio that handle as many food poisoning cases as we do and we have. Probably the most recent largest food poisoning lawsuit in San Antonio revolved around a outbreak at Pasha in San Antonio. That involved hundreds of people who were injured and became sick as a result of eating contaminated food. That case recently resolved. Recently in the news was a story that HEB was recalling some 8.5 million pounds of ready-to-eat Tyson Food chicken products that included some of their Meal Simple products. If you live in San Antonio or you shop at HEB, you know what these Meal Simples are. They're ready-to-eat meals, you buy them and heat them up. Also, included in the recall, were some Tyson grilled chicken breasts, fajita chicken, grilled and ready pulled chicken, a bunch of Tyson products, a bunch of Meal Simples to include Meal Simple buffalo chicken, pepper trio chicken, barbecue chicken, curry chicken. Then even some of their SoFlo products, which is pizza, their buffalo chicken pizza, and their crustless Buffalo chicken pizza had been recalled. They've all been recalled as it relates to a potential outbreak of Tyson chicken with a pathogen known as Listeria. You may know of Listeria from the Blue Bell recall a few years back that almost shut down Blue Bell. Listeria is a really nasty illness. Listeria can and does kill hundreds of people in America a year. It's something that can be through proper food handling techniques eliminated or very, very limited from contaminating food. One of the bad things about Listeria is that it can be a very, very deadly, and very dangerous sickness specifically for pregnant women. Pregnant women are 10 times more likely than other people to get a Listeria infection. On top of that, it can cause all kinds of complications with the pregnancy and really anybody who would be at risk from other illnesses, older people, people with weakened immune systems, but in particular, pregnant women have a real risk with listeria. Some of the facts include that pregnant Hispanic women are 24 times more likely than the general population to get a Listeria infection. This is straight from the CDC website. According to the CDC is the third leading cause of death from foodborne illness or food poisoning in America and that approximately 260 people die per year. What we know right now is that HEB has taken on upon themselves to withdraw some and recall some 8 million pounds of chicken. If you have any of these products, you need to throw them away or go back to HEB and get a refund. If you think you have eaten some of them and you feel sick, please go to the doctor. Food poisoning is something people talk about like it's a tummy illness, but in reality, food poisoning is very dangerous and can kill people and does kill people. If you think you have been part of the Listeria HEB food poisoning outbreak and you'd like to seek counsel, please reach out to us. if you have not been injured by this, but have some of the products, call HEB, get a refund, and let them properly dispose of any products you have. Anyway, thanks for tuning in. We'll try to keep you all up to date on what's happening in Texas and what's happening in San Antonio and what's...

Part-Time Real Estate Investing | Land Investing (LA 1525) Transcript: Speaker 1: Steve and Jill here. Jill DeWit: Hello. Speaker 1: Welcome to the Land Academy show entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Jill DeWit: And I'm Jill DeWit broadcasting from sunny Southern California. Speaker 1: Today Jill and I talk about part time real estate or land investing. Let me tell you, we all started part-time. Jill DeWit: That's true. Speaker 1: With very, very, very few exceptions that I know of. We all started part-time until we made enough money and convinced ourselves that there's some longevity in it and we quit our jobs. Jill DeWit: Beautiful. Speaker 1: But I'm going to say this, if you start this right off the bat, because you hate your job so much and are consumed with trying to get to that starting line so you can quit your job, you're just causing problems for yourself. Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free and if you are already a member, join us on Discord. Jill DeWit: Corey asks, did I send to escrow too early? I received a signed PA the other day. The signature had a small note under it saying that the owner was deceased, minor detail, right? PS- Speaker 1: Gets good though, this is a good start. Jill DeWit: Wait, this is going to be funny. It sounds funny. I haven't read this before. I'm just envisioning, sure we want to sell, we love it. PS, mom's dead. Here you go. Like we're not going to notice. Speaker 1: Figure it out. Jill DeWit: Exactly. Speaker 1: At least they told you. Jill DeWit: Well, there is that. And then just sign mom's name and pretend. Small note under it saying that the owner was deceased and that the person responding is a daughter of the deceased. The daughter didn't leave any contact info to reach her. I did due diligence on the property and realized that this is a very good deal. I signed the purchase agreement and also included a letter asking the daughter to contact me with my contact info on the letter and overnighted it to her on... This is all real time. This is a new. June 3rd. Jill DeWit: In the meantime, I went ahead and sent the signed purchase agreement to an attorney and started escrow. The letter was delivered on 6/4/2021. I still haven't heard anything from the daughter as of June 8th. The attorney got back to me today and told me that mother conveyed the property to her in a revocable living trust and left the daughter who signed the purchase agreement as a successor trustee. This is good. Speaker 1: Good start. Jill DeWit: Yeah. So in parentheses, it says we're good to go there. All of that to ask this, do you guys think I sent it to escrow/attorney too quick? Should I have waited until the daughter contacted me? Or would you guys have done the same thing I did? I got with a realtor that was recommended and he told me that he thought the property would sell quickly and it would gross a profit over $130,000. I love it. Here's my only thing, I probably would've done the same stuff. Speaker 1: I would skip trace this daughter and I would blow her phone up. Jill DeWit: Yeah. Just make sure. Speaker 1: Did you do it too early? No. You did everything right. Jill DeWit: So, and I imagine too right now, because you're having an attorney close the deal obviously. I think you're having an attorney close a deal. Is that what he said? Speaker 1: Attorneys are great at finding people by the way. Jill DeWit: That doesn't say it's nice. And let's see, in the meantime, I went ahead and saw the attorney and started escrow. Okay. So that's why I'm assuming they're doing the deal. So you're trying to reach the daughter and the attorneys try and reach the daughter. Pretty sure one of you is going to reach the daughter because what's needed from the daughter is, hey, by the way, we need to get your signature and where do you want your money to go?

Dr. Bill Petty is the co-founder, former CEO and Chairman of Exactech, a company that makes orthopedic implants. Petty, an orthopedic surgeon and his co-founder Gary Miller, a biomechanics engineer, realized in 1985 that replacing shoulders, hips and knees would be a lot more effective if manufacturers talked more to surgeons to figure out what they really needed. Petty, along with his wife Betty, built up Exactech from a small Gainesville, Florida startup to a global company with 900 employees in 7 countries. TRANSCRIPT: Speaker 1: 0:01 Inventors and their inventions. Welcome to radio Cade and podcast from the cave museum for creativity and invention in Gainesville, Florida, the museum is named after James Robert Cade, who invented Gatorade in 1965. My name is Richard Miles. We’ll introduce you to inventors and the things that motivate them, we’ll learn about their personal stories, how their inventions work and how their ideas get from the laboratory to the marketplace, Speaker 2: 0:38 Shoulders, hips, and knees. Maybe you saying that as a kid and maybe you’re getting ready to replace them all. Welcome to radio Cade. I’m your host Richard Miles. And today I’m pleased to welcome Dr. Bill petty, the former CEO and chairman of Zack tech, a company that makes orthopedic implants. Welcome to radio Cade bill. Thank you . So bill, usually I save the personal questions for last, but I have to ask and only cause you look in great shape. Have you had any joints replaced yet? Are you still all original bill petty? Speaker 3: 1:04 I am all original, but Betty Petty, my wife has had two exact technium plant , so we do have it in . Speaker 2: 1:11 Okay, good. So you’re living the brand, you’re using your own product. So that’s good. What I want to do. I think most of our listeners are probably fairly familiar with orthopedic implants and what they do. But I do know that probably some particularly on the younger side are not exactly sure what that even means. It occurred to me that they’re probably not tracking this technology. Like guys say who were in their late fifties, purely hypothetical example. So why don’t we start by you explaining what an orthopedic implant actually is and what it does. Speaker 3: 1:37 There are many different kinds of orthopedic implants. Perhaps the ones people are most familiar with are the ones that are used for fixing fractures or torn ligaments in actuates , but that’s not our business. Our business is orthopedic implants for treating arthritis and basically arthritis is a disease, hugely degenerative or osteoarthritis that the joint gets damaged. The cartilage is damaged, that comes painful, limitation of motion, those sorts of things. So what our orthopedic implants do, what the surgeons do with them rather is we go in and shave off a part of the bone and replace that part of the bone with on one side , usually a metal, a very high tech metal, such as cobalt, Chrome, or titanium. And the other side with ultra high molecular weight polyethylene makes a very low friction artificial joint , not quite as low friction is our normal cartilage that God gave us, but still very good. Now the implants or the ExacTech currently makes include total hip replacement, total knee replacement, total shoulder replacement and total ankle replacement. So basically that’s what they are. Uh , results are excellent. I would say in general, 95% are better. Good results. That’s not to say there aren’t potential complications as there can be with any surgery, but overall the results are very good. And in fact, it’s been stated rather kind of people have studied this sort of thing is total joint replacement or total joint. Arthroplasty is one of the best medical procedures developed over the last 50 years. So Speaker 2: 3:14 That helps a lot, I think, to understand what these things do. You mentioned that primarily these are implants related to things like arthritis. So I’m guessing here that a typical patient for an orthopedic implant probably tends to be on the older side, but are there any other demographic characteristics of people who need or get orthopedic implants, background, occupation, that sort of thing, or is it sort of all over the map eventually? Do we all need orthopedic implants or does it tend to group itself? Demographically? Speaker 3: 3:41 Let me first just answer the question back page, probably two thirds of patients you have, or TPD implants at this time are in the Medicare age or 65 are older, but that means one third are younger than that. So the most common as I’ve already mentioned is osteoarthritis or degenerative arthritis. And frankly, other than post-trauma or some deformity, we don’t really know why some people get that kind of arthritis. And don’t now rheumatoid arthritis, which is a less common cause of meeting on arthroplasty or replacement of a joint. We have learned a lot about, about the immune part of it, but even that, that we now have better medications for it. We still don’t know all the causes of this kind of our sprites. Speaker 2: 4:28 So that’s really interesting. Cause I remember growing up that one of the causes of arthritis and I didn’t know if this was true to Smith was overused, right? So runners are skiers. I remember distinctly being told as a little kid, not to crack my knuckles because that would cause arthritis. Is that a myth or is there something to that that’s overused or extensive use or particularly joint is going to cause arthritis and some people under that age of say 65, Speaker 3: 4:50 It’s mostly a myth. Actually one of my colleagues at the university of Florida was Rick Panish. He was rheumatologist . He was an avid runner as was, I still run some. He actually did a study and did an age matched and otherwise matched controls of different age groups, comparing runners to non-runners and he found no difference in the incidents of arthritis. One could even argue maybe not running, but at least aggressive walking. Our normal cartilage gets each nutrition by the fluids being pumped in and out or the cartilage as we use our joints. So it’s probably worse to not use the joint than to use it. Now, overused now become operative. People run a hundred miles and whatever I don’t know about that, I’ve never done that. I’ve run a few marathons, but that’s it for me and my joints are all still really good. So I think that’s mostly myth. On the other hand, let’s take a football player who plays for many, many years and may have some cartridge chairs and some ligament tears and those sorts of things that then sets up the joint to be not normal like it should be. And because of that, they may be more likely to get arthritis at a younger age. Speaker 2: 6:03 That’s a huge relief because I’m a runner. And a couple of years ago, I actually started developing osteoarthritis and I thought, well, that’s it. I can’t run anymore and should have quit running a long time ago. And I was relieved to find the physical therapist said, no, some stretching and so on. You can get through this. And so now I’m back running again, not quite as much as I used to, but I’m glad that submit that makes me feel a lot better. And I can at least another 10 years for, I have to worry about this. So bill you , this technology of orthopedic implants has been around for a while and we’re going to hear more about how you started the company in just a minute, but first let’s peek into the future. What in your field, in the field of orthopedic implants, orthopedic surgery, what is the cutting edge or now under development? What will the next generation for instance, be able to expect or is likely to see coming out of the field Speaker 3: 6:47 First to talk about joint replacement. There’s not already mentioned results over many, many years are better than 95% are in many series better than 98%. So when we talk about an improvement where you have to be very careful that an improvement is really an improvement or not just to change. And in fact that exact check , one of our mottoes was evolution, not revolution because sometimes it’s revolution, you may get some unintended consequences for total joint replacement. Actually there’ve been some conferences established by the NIH and the American Academy of orthopedic surgeons. And they actually came to the conclusion that improvement in surgical technique is one of the best ways. And there was a famous surgeon who said for a total joint replacement the best time to do it right as the first time. So there are some technological developments , particularly related to using digital means of being more accurate in the placement of the joint , exact tech . It’s worked on a , what we call a GPS system, which is a digitally control instrumentation system just to help the surgeons be more accurate. So I think that’s the area for total joint replacement. Now we can get into that , say more future risks. Are there some genetic things we can do to begin to curtail the incidence of arthritis? Are there some, let’s say biologic materials. If we had an artificial cartilage , wouldn’t that be wonderful if you were your joint out and you’d get the osteoarthritis. If we had a way to go in and replace the actual cartilage, that would be fantastic because then the body renews, it just like it does under the normal circumstances, there are some treatments like that, but currently they’re for small defection the cartilage . So let’s say you have a defect in your car. What’s the size of a dime or a size of a quarter. There are some biologic treatments that work for that , but not complete joint as we did with joint replacement . So those are just some of my thoughts about where we may be going in the both with joint replacement and with other more bottom line , Speaker 2: 8:59 That’s really exciting. And again, probably should emphasize for the younger listeners who would think like I’m not going to have a joint replaced for a long, long time. This is really can be life-changing for someone who has lost mobility, right? Who can no longer walk or lift or something to be able to get another 10, 20 years or more of a full use of their limb or their body. That’s a big deal, isn’t it Speaker 3: 9:18 Sure is. And in fact, one of the things we’ve always said it exact tact . In fact, it’s part of our purpose. And I think inspirational to our employees that really our purpose as a company, to help people regain and then retain or maintain their activity and independence. And whether that activity named dependence means working so they can earn a living or maybe they’re retired and they just want to go out and do something with their grandchildren and kick the ball around. So it makes a huge difference. And I think also keeping people are off of crutches, out of wheelchairs, out of nursing home so they can have a more productive, active life . Speaker 2: 9:56 So now we get to the part of the show. I always enjoy on radio Cade . We’d like to hear about origin stories and you’ve got a great one. You were trained as an orthopedic surgeon and you decided to form this company way back in 1985, along with your wife, Betty and Dr. Gary Miller, a biomedical engineer, and also has been on the show was a guest of radio K last may. And I have a little bit of experience with that on a much smaller level with the kid museum, working with my wife to found that. And so my obvious question is like, what on earth were you thinking and why? So take us back to 1985, you’re a surgeon. What made you decide you wanted to start a company? And what were your expectations? 36 years ago? Speaker 3: 10:33 You may have gotten some addition , Gary, I don’t know what you talked to Gary about, but Gary is very integral in this as has been Betty and of course, many, many others. So Gary and I were both on the faculty in the medical school at university of Florida. I was just searching . There is an engineer, as you pointed out. And we did a fair amount of research related to joint replacement because they weren’t as good as they are today. They certainly were not perfect. It’s still not perfect . So we were doing research and one of the companies happened to be Johnson and Johnson ask us to do some work with them and develop an instrument system for a total knee system. They had developed basically Gary and I were having a conversation one day and he said, you know, if I were doing this kind of development, I would approach it differently. And I said, what do you mean? He says, it seems that that what we’re doing is we’re trying to touch up with your competitors. I said , makes good business sense. Of course, what would you do? And he said, you know, we have our own knowledge. We talked to surgeons, we go to conferences, we read the literature, we understand what some of the complications, some of the problems are. If I were leading this kind of development, I would look at those problems and say, let’s focus on one or two or three or whatever. Let’s try to find a solution or a partial short sheet that really a bell with me. And I started thinking about it because I was taking care of patients into your every day and began to study the industry. I studied entrepreneurship , uh, all those kinds of things and dairy was in my office. One day we were talking about some research and I said, do you remember that conversation with , he said, Oh sure. I actually don’t think he did. I think it was just said in passing by him . I said, I’ve really been thinking about it. And I think we should start a company and try to do what she, she just, and he looked at me and said, we’re going to compete with Stryker and Zimmer. And I said, sure. And he said, you’re crazy. So that kind of ended that conversation . So I went home and convinced Betty that this was a good idea. And we’d been talking about it for months. And actually our vacation time, I would sit on the beach and read these books and try to understand if this is early a feasible thing to do. So Betty , I actually went to Tallahassee, got the company incorporated, all that we had Gary over for lunch on a Saturday, showed him the corporate papers. And he said, Oh, you’re serious. And I said , yeah, I said , are you going to join us? And reluctantly he joined. So that was how it got started. I know this is often about invention. We didn’t have a product, we hadn’t invented anything. We just had a lot of knowledge and research related to orthopedic implants. So once we did this, we said, okay, how are we going to get a problem ? And we met some wonderful people up in the Northeast who are supportive of our idea and that’s how we got started. Speaker 2: 13:23 Well, as I’m sure you’ve known bill , a lot of people are , you know , ideas , truly original, right? I , and ideas , really a formulation of other ideas that have pre-existed it all the way back to the Bible, there nothing new under the sun, but it’s fascinating how people do get these insights. And I want to go back just one minute to that insight or the comment that Gary May or may not have made about why just form a company to chase competitors. Because I think that was probably key right? To your longterm success is that from the very beginning, you weren’t just a, me too type of company making another type of widget. You were doing something at least different than the competitors. So you establish , I imagine a niche from the very beginning. Speaker 3: 14:00 Just let me make one other comment about that in our work that we have really an engineer’s daring , an awful lot of others in the company. Now it’s absolutely essential that we work with surgeons because they’re the ones in ELR, they’re the ones samey issues in the, or they’re maybe the ones seeing an issue with the patient postoperatively may not be quite as good as either the patient or the surgeon wanted them to be. So we do that now. That’s not to say other companies don’t do that, but we have had surgeons that if we’ve put on what we call a surgeon design team , and they’ve said, you really want our input. You really showed it. You need it to get products better for our patients . And I think that’s a subtle nuance, but I think it’s been important to the surgeons we’ve worked with and also important to our success. Speaker 2: 14:45 When you started this, you know, you had a good idea, you got Gary on board, but what were your actual expectations in 1985, fast forward 36 years. So on exact tech has over 900 employees in seven countries, annual sales of plus or minus $350 million . Did you imagine your company would do so well back then? Or were you just initial goal was like, you know, let’s just sell a few implants and see how we do, and maybe we can hire somebody. Well , what was your vision back then? Speaker 3: 15:12 Before I answer that size question, our vision was to do just what Derek originally recommended, make a difference. You make a contribution, reduce complications and hopefully help surgeons get better results. Of course, if we don’t get on the market with it, it doesn’t do any good, no matter how smart we are, how great our products are, any of those things. But that was key to us from the standpoint of growth. Sure. We wanted to grow. I just gave the reason we can do the best. We can have the best for the surgeons, the best for the patients. But if nobody uses our product, we’ve not really done it. So did I expect exact tech to be East coast ? Largest city is now the answer’s yes. Maybe even larger. I don’t consider it where we are in any way, a lack of success, but sure. And I think if you’re going to be an entree for newer , if you don’t have that approach, you’re probably wasting your time. Now I’m more a developer and an operator, and that’s why we’ve stayed with exact tech because we know a little about serial entrepreneurs and how they do one thing and sell it in five years and go do it again. That’s great. And I’m all for that. It’s just not what we set up . Speaker 2: 16:20 So you really anticipated my next question and that is you’re trained as a surgeon and you did that successfully for a while , but then you started a company and obviously this sort of your to-do list every day , when you wake up and running a company is different than a to-do list of a surgeon who goes in and does surgery. So did you like that aspect of running and growing a company, the hiring people that doing the market research or did a part of you want to stay in surgery? Speaker 3: 16:44 Correct . The answer is yes. And in fact, for many years I did stay in surgery. People often ask me the difference of the personal gratification and my kind of surgery, total joint replacement. I’ve already talked about the positive results and what it does for people. People do everything from come in and hug your neck to bring your stone crab claws because they’re fishermen over on the West coast of Florida to show that appreciation. So that’s a very direct one-on-one appreciation. However, being involved in the company and all of that involves if we can have our products used around the world and they benefit from those products to surge in juice , that’s also very gratifying. It’s not the personal, one-on-one that being a surgeon is , but still very gratifying in a more indirect way. Speaker 2: 17:35 Yeah, that’s a great answer. And I think again, the limited experience I’ve had with starting organization, one big difference that I think people who don’t have the experiences to realize how many different things you have to worry about. Because I imagine the surgeon, obviously you’re working with a team in the, or, but yet you don’t have to sit there and worry how the hospital’s going to pay the light bill or who’s cleaning up at night or locking up the hospital at night. But when you start your organization, you do worry about those things you have to, and you have to use a much bigger part of your brain to solve a long and never ending list of issues. One thing that I’d like to ask specifically, bill, and again, only cause I’ve done a little bit of as well. I have to ask, what was it like working with your wife, especially starting your own company. Now you can take the fifth amendment on this if you’d like, but I want to see what I did wrong. So what was that like? Speaker 3: 18:19 Yeah. We’re often asked that and sometimes we’re asked that in the way that, how do you spend all day with your husband at work and then go home and not Betty’s answer usually? Well, it works . I don’t sit on his lap. I’m doing what I do. And he doesn’t like he does . And of course is a company got bigger. We got more separated geographically within the facility. And there were plenty of days that I didn’t see value at all at work. We may see each other for 30 minutes or an hour and a meeting and then go about what we do. I think more deeply though, we were both very passionate about what we were doing and we want her to be successful. We want her to be helpful to surgeons and patients. So I think I can admit more driven than Betty is, but still we were both driven by this passion to be successful and to use our individual talents and competencies, as you well know, everybody’s different and everybody has a different talent and everybody has a different ability ready. For many, many years, I was in charge of our human resources department and was very passionate about hiring the people that would fit the values of exact tech . Later. She became more involved in facilities administration and was passionate about that because our facilities important to our employees, for sure, we have a lot of surgeons to visit from all around the country and all over the world. They want to see what we do and how we do it. For some people think of manufacturing machine it’s kind of dirty and all, all over the floor . We’ve often said you could eat off the floor. They check, check. It’s not quite like an LR , but we’ve tried to make it a little bit like that. So we’ve used our different talents to try to help the company succeed. Speaker 2: 20:01 Phoebe and I have talked to other sort of husband, wife, teams, particularly ones who’ve run their own organizations. And there are definitely pros and cons, right? I mean the pro is, as you said, you both share the same emotional investment and passion in making this thing work. You don’t have to worry about separating those two parts of your life. But on the other hand, we found with the kid museum at a certain point, you have to draw a line in the day and go like, okay, we’re watching a movie or we’re going out to eat and we’re not talking about this project anymore. Cause otherwise you can go to midnight discussing various things for various aspects or organization. And there’s no end point, which doesn’t really happen. If your spouse has nothing to do with your work . Speaker 3: 20:37 That’s a super important point. And we worked very hard to maintain a good family life. When our kids were still with us, coach basketball at the boys club, Betty was supportive of Judy’s ballet. In fact, she said she put in a lot of miles between the boys club in the ballet and we’d go to theater and after dinner and she’d say, and try to have a normal life and marriage. I won’t say that we’re never came up, but we certainly had a life beyond work . Speaker 2: 21:03 So bill, I always ask each guest a little bit about their CRE professional selves. So take us back to a young bill petty. I know you were born and raised in little rock and your mom was a homemaker. Your dad was a salesman. What were you like as a kid? Were you a good student? Did you play sports? Did teachers love you? Or were you always in the principal’s office? Like I was, I know there’s a lot to unpack. So take your time. Speaker 3: 21:24 I was a good student. I was never in the principal’s office except to get awards. My parents were very supportive, but also let me be somewhat independent. Obviously I was a normal kid. My sport was track . Maybe that’s where I’m still a runner. I was pretty good at it. Pretty good at it. They want to try to recruit me to the football team , but I didn’t want to get knocked around like that. So I feel about experience was when I was in the air force. We did flag football because there must be . And I was pretty good at that as well, but I didn’t get knocked around because it was flag football. I’ll tell you a very quick, interesting story. I don’t have a high school diploma. You’ve already noted that I’m from little rock Arkansas and you may or may not remember or have learned that little rock was one of the first school systems in the South to be integrated. And I went to little rock central high school, great school by the way still is. But that’s where her father was first close to schools and subsequently president Eisenhower since a hundred first hour born. And it was very interesting. So in the 10th grade I went to school with just soldiers. Everything was fine. This was a school of 2000 students. There were seven black kids that came obviously all good students. I mean, they’re going to pick them very carefully. Then it was the following year. The governor fathers closed the high schools in little rock that was bad for some, but kids do different things. They went to other cities. There was relatives, there were some private schools that were already there and open. I took correspondence courses from the university of Arkansas during the 11th grade. If the end of that, nobody knew what was going to happen. So the colleges in Arkansas said, if you have a certain number of credits and can make a certain grade on the sat or act or whatever, you can come on to college, even though you have not graduated from high school. I did that. I actually went to little rock university. That was an easy discovering and I’m still a pretty young kid. It’s now part of the university of Arkansas system, but that’s where I went. And two or three weeks after I was there, they opened this high schools and middle rock . So I had a decision to make, I should, I’m already here. I think I can do this till I stayed in college. So I have a bachelor’s degree, a master’s degree and a medical degree. I do not have a high school diploma still. Don’t early in my life. I would get all these advertisements, finish your high school, get your over to fall in love with . And that went on for years and years and years. The other wonderful thing about that is they’ll allow you to be a 12th grader in college. Betty’s family had moved back to lower rock from another city in Arkansas because they knew they were doing that. She finished high school in a regular way . She did extra, got all the credits and graduate . So Betty and I met when we were 16 students at little rock university and you know, the rest of the story, Speaker 2: 24:08 That’s a great story bill. And I imagine it gives you a , probably a fair amount of empathy for the students last year in high school who basically couldn’t finish or had to finish online or whatnot. And it makes me wonder all of a sudden, I wonder if they’re gonna be some future bill Petty’s out of that cohort because they had to do something similar. He sort of patched together the last year, their school, and maybe they started your early in college and so on. But that’s a great story. And I got to ask, is that like a trivia question at an exact tech dinner? Which one of our C-suite executives doesn’t have a high school degree ? Speaker 3: 24:38 Yeah. When I was chairman of orthopedics at the university, they would make light of that in one time. One of the guys gave me a certificate to make up for not having a high school diploma back to your point. Yes. There probably are people that what’s happened over the last year. It worked out better. As we also know, there are a lot of people don’t have that kind of support. And so I’m sure they’ve been hurt by it. So we’ll have to see how we work through all of that Speaker 2: 25:04 One particular moment in your early schooling where you thought that maybe one that you’d become a surgeon and two, that you would run your own company, you remembered liking the idea of that or thinking about it or did that come much? Speaker 3: 25:16 Well, Betty always laughs . When people used to ask me in my youth, what I wanted to be, I said a charter boat captain. I still love voting . But in answer to your question, I started in college and business administration. So I had an interest in business. However, I also had a real interest in science and I was just talking before class one time with a girl who said a friend, but his girlfriend, actually, this girl is the one who had kind of introduced to me also, but she said, well, why don’t you try more science and think about medical school. That was really the first time I’ve thought about it. So that was kind of toward the end of my freshman year in college. So I kind of went that way. And then other than that early business experience, no, I had no plan. Once I got into medicine and eventually orthopedics to go into business that really came more from the work that Gary and I were doing and the conversations we had. And that’s when I more studied business. Now I will say one other thing about that. When I first moved to Gainesville, I got to read orthopedics all the time, you know, and that’s what I do. That’s who I am. I want to read something else. So I started taking a couple of business magazines, really just more as a diversion to read something outside of medicine and orthopedics. So over probably gosh, 15 or 20 years probably got a pretty good business education from reading those magazines, even though I don’t have any formal business degree or anything of that time . So, you know, you’re somewhat Speaker 2: 26:44 Of an unusual combination because we talked to a lot of inventors, entrepreneurs, founders, and generally speaking, it’s rare that you have somebody say the inventor themselves, the researcher, the physician also start and run a successful company and a to start companies, but they quickly step aside because that’s not really their deal. So to have someone who is both trained as a surgeon, worked as a surgeon and then develop and run a company it’s not unheard of, but it’s fairly unusual. Yeah . Speaker 3: 27:10 There are a few who have been very successful. I know one ophthalmologist was very successful and then much later, so this company out Johnson and Johnson, so there are some, I think for me it was, you cannot combine the, to make the kind of contribution for the treatment of arthritis that I would like to make way back in medical school. I became interested in arthritis and said in my career, I’m on developed a cure for arthritis. Well, I learned a lot along the way. There are a lot of different kinds of arthritis. I haven’t done that, but I would say that kind of where I’ve got to was a combination of orthopedic surgery and business has helped a lot of people with arthritis. So from that stoma, I did have that little thing in my brain very early in my medical career, even before I graduated from medical school, physicians are pretty smart people. First of all, just to get into medical school was extremely difficult. And then you work really hard. So it’s a matter of , do you have the desire and then are willing to apply yourself in another way? I think most of those shoes start companies that maybe eventually become very successful, but step aside, fairly early and remain on it as consultants, whatever, I think that’s what they want to do. And I totally respect that. I wanted to go a different route and be more involved in the whole situation. So I think that’s how we got where we got with exactly. Speaker 2: 28:34 So bill final question, people in your position who’ve done really well, very successful, often get asked for advice. So I’d be really interested. What are the most common questions you get from people seeking advice and what are your answers? Speaker 3: 28:47 It’s a straightforward question. How do you do what she did? I know a very, very successful surgeon in Arkansas, by the way, who sediment. I want to be bill petty. When I grow up, I mean, he’s a very successful renowned surgeon . He says that . So how do you do it? Study what you’re interested in it . Some people say, I want to make money. We’ve done okay financially. But that was never our goal. Our goal was to make a contribution, do something that we were passionate about. Perseverance don’t give up. I think it was Winston Churchill there . I’m sure many people have said never get up. It was back in world war two that Winston Churchill said we will never give up. So don’t give up because there are going to be obstacles things you’re going to run into, associate yourself with competent, passionate people of integrity who are positive and also want to make a contribution golden rule or platinum rule treat others as you would like to be treated. It’s actually Stephen Covey who developed the platinum rule, treat others as they would like to be treated. First of all, you have to figure out what that is and then you can treat them that way. And I’ll get you in a little bit , bit to exact text values and my own personal values. You have to build trust and exact X values are integrity. Number one, compassionate, teamwork, excellence and innovation. So work with the people and live there because there’s, I don’t see you doing that. They’re not going to do that communication skills, especially for me, I’m a very shot or there’s nothing. I hate more than a cocktail party because I don’t feel comfortable with that though. My wife now says, Betty says, you’re really very good at it . It doesn’t mean I like it. And then finally recognize your customers may know more than you do a whole lot of things. So be a great listener and in pay attention to them and work with them. So that’s kind of been my, our company’s philosophy. And I think that to what success we’ve had, Speaker 2: 30:49 It’s all great advice, bill. I got a comment on the cocktail party. I don’t like cocktail parties. It didn’t come naturally to me for a while . And then finally I realized the secret to cocktail parties is you find the one person who looks like they’re having a worse time than you are. You go up and just say, how you doing? And they’re so happy to be saved. I actually was originally an introvert and then I joined the foreign service and I finally decided, you know, if the U S governments pay me to diplomat, I’d better get good at this. I got to talk to people, Speaker 3: 31:15 Enjoy the same for me. I talked about listing, unless you can communicate with people, you’re not going to be a good listener . Right? Speaker 2: 31:22 Well , thank you very much for being on radio Cade . It’s been a great conversation, strongly encouraged listeners to also listen to our interview with Gary Miller ILS co-founder of exact tag . That was from May, 2020, I think may of last year. Listen to those together, I think would be a great combination, but wish you all the best. Thank you for everything you’ve done. Particularly for people who now can probably walk or do things they couldn’t do before and look forward to having you back at some point. Speaker 3: 31:44 Thanks a bunch. We have huge respect for the K kids can learn what they can do and they can be , I think it’s fantastic. Thank you. Thanks. A bunch. Speaker 1: 31:55 Radio Cade is produced by the Kadan museum for creativity and invention located in Gainesville for Richard Miles is the podcast host and Ellie , Tom coordinates, inventor interviews, podcasts are recorded and Parkwood , soundstage, and edited and mixed by Bob McPeak radio. Cade theme song was produced and performed by Tracy Collins and features violinist Jacob Lawson.

Everyday people around the world step on to a scale to see what they weigh, but is this really the most effective tool for measuring our health? Michael Fedewa and Mike Esco, lifelong health and fitness researchers, co-founders of MADE Health and Fitness, and Cade Prize finalists tell us why cutting edge technology on our smartphones may be the best tool for managing our health. By simply downloading an app and taking a photo we can gain an accurate assessment of our health, body fat % included, that is as accurate as what we could get from a high-tech lab. TRANSCRIPT: Speaker 1: 0:01 Inventors and their inventions. Welcome to radio Cade and podcast from the cave museum for creativity and invention in Gainesville, Florida, the museum is named after James Robert Cade, who invented Gatorade in 1965. My name is Richard Miles. We’ll introduce you to inventors and the things that motivate them, we’ll learn about their personal stories, how their inventions work and how their ideas get from the laboratory to the marketplace. Speaker 2: 0:39 Welcome to radio Cade . I’m your host, James de Virgilio. And here’s something for you to think about as you’re beginning to listen to this podcast, why are you measuring weight loss? Should you even measure weight loss when you got on the scale this morning, this week, last week, a month ago, is that number relevant? And is it telling you what you want to know about your health? My guests today, both co-founders of the made health and fitness app, Michael FITO and Mike ESCO, joining the program to tell us about maybe why we’re not reading our scale correctly, Michael and Mike, welcome to the show. Thanks for being with us. Thank you for having us . All right . So you told me pre-show that we’re going to call Michael FITA his last name, and then we’re going to call Mike ESCO to keep things simple for our listeners. So we have FITO and ESCO and de Virgilio three last names that are great for a podcast. Let’s start talking about this then right away, weight loss, something that obviously is very, very important, perhaps even more important in light of COVID now, but here we are teasing out the beginning saying maybe your scale, isn’t the primary thing you should be using to measure whether or not you are getting more or less healthy. That’s right. I’m curious. Tell me why. That’s the case. That’s the primary way in which people will evaluate progress on a weight loss program? I mean, after all, they want to lose weight, but the question becomes, where is that weight loss coming from? We have fat mass, which is the culprit of poor health. And then we have lean mass with muscle involved in that. And we’re just based in our progress on weight loss in general, there’s no way of really knowing how much fat mass was lost versus fat free mass or muscle mass as lost research shows that through most weight loss programs, there is muscle that is lost through that. And then the question becomes how much. So imagine we’re starting out and someone says to you, I’d like to lose some weight. I’m just going to eat less calories or exercise more. And we could spend hours discussing that in a podcast, but I want to lose more weight. Of course the response would be, well, you really are saying you want to lose fat and you want to maintain your muscle and what you are suggesting. And I think science is definitively telling us is that if I lose 10 pounds, what matters to me is where did those pounds come from, right? How much was fat and how much was muscle and the scale is not going to tell me that. Correct? Yeah, you’re absolutely right. You know, in our research we have pretty good evidence. We kind of use a three quarters rule. So if you a pound of weight, Speaker 3: 3:00 Most of that is coming off as fat mass. And it’s probably about 75%, about 25% ish somewhere around that is going to be fat free mass. And so some of that weight is going to be muscle, but that also depends on how early you are in your weight loss program in the earlier weeks, or whether you kind of progressed into the later months. It depends on if you’re a highly trained athlete or if you’re just kind of a general weekend warrior like ESCO and I are so that 75% rule that doesn’t always hold true. And so I think with our app, we’re trying to shift the focus away from how much weight can I lose and smaller and skinnier is always better. We would actually like to completely shift the focus and say, well , stop actually tracking weight loss. What if we just walked away from that and said like, how much muscle can I add or how much stronger it can we get you and , and actually focus on building stronger and healthier bodies rather than just trying to be smaller and thinner. Speaker 2: 3:51 And that works both ways. As you mentioned, if I want to gain 10 pounds and I say, I’d like to gain as much of that as muscle. And all I use is a scale. Again, I have no way to see how much is muscle and how much is fat. So this brings us to the point now where if you’re a listener and you’ve done anything like this, you’re aware of measuring body fat. You’re thinking, well, wait a minute, there’s calipers out there. If you’re near a university or you’ve been a high level athlete, you’ve probably sat in the egg, so to speak, potentially you’ve gone under water, right? All these different ways to manage your body fat. So why do we need something else? Speaker 3: 4:22 So the majority of those techniques, and there’s a lot of techniques out there, there are laboratory techniques that we have that we do research with. And those are very sophisticated and they’re very accurate. But the problem with those is they’re limited to laboratory settings and they’re costly. They require somebody that knows how to run that equipment, to perform the measures. And then there are field tools like skinfold calipers or the handheld or the specialized bioimpedance scales or whatnot. And those have a cost associated with it as well. And usually those are found in gym settings. They oftentimes can carry a range of air that’s pretty wide too. And a person that would want to have those measurements performed would need to go into a fitness facility or a clinical facility or a laboratory, and have someone else perform that measure the system that we have takes that away, puts the power, so to speak in the user’s hands, where they do not have to have a professional perform the measure, which is for a lot of people is pretty intimidating to have someone pinch their body part, right, or perform a measure where they’re required to know what their body weight is. And that’s been private and personal information for people. And that can pose as a barrier for them getting assessed and therefore getting going on an appropriate weight loss or exercise or lifestyle program. Speaker 2: 5:33 Here’s something that that’s obviously interesting if you’re an elite athlete or if you’re me and you happen to get to live in a university town and think that you were an elite athlete, even though you really weren’t, you found a way to get yourself into the bod pod as they called it right. Or the egg. And I had used calipers my whole life. I love nutrition. I love fitness. And I thought, here’s my body fat level. And I go in there and it was at least three percentage points higher than what I had ever measured. And it was really interesting because as you mentioned, they also told me all about how they have to fine tune that machine for really each athlete. Like every person is different. You can’t just fire it up for one person and fire it up for someone else. You get a different result. At the time they told the story of Tim Tebow, he’s a different calculation requirement. Then one of the cornerbacks is, and if you put the same calculations in there, you get wildly different and actually inaccurate results. So it’s a complicated thing. It’s really important. But when I saw what you did, first of all, it seems like a no brainer . It seems incredible. But how were you able to put something onto an app that can be accurate? It seems like if it’s so difficult to get the bod pod to work, which is this really expensive, complicated piece of machinery, how can my cell phone accurately tell me what my body fat percentages , Speaker 4: 6:41 That’s actually a good point. So when we start comparing across different methods, there’s a few percentage points different. When we go from skinfolds to underwater, weighing to the bod pod, to bioimpedance to DEXA. So we started cycling through, and if we’re trying to track changes, we want to make sure that the person is being measured with the same technique. Every time we can’t just use those interchangeably and assume that one measure taken on one machine is going to be the same as something we would get from a different method. So we started looking at that and some of the assumptions that you mentioned, people are all different. And so there’s changes in muscle mass that come naturally, as we age there’s changes in body fat, that happened because of the normal aging process there’s differences between men and women and muscle mass and fat mass there’s differences in bone density and the density of fat free mass. Maybe if we look at different racial and ethnic groups and children versus adolescents. And so these are all things that ASCO and I deal with almost on a daily basis, as part of our research is trying to figure out how to more accurately measure what someone has made of accounting for all these external factors. We work a lot with underwater weighing or with the egg, like the bod pod, like you mentioned. And we figured out that we can measure how big someone is based on the amount of space that they take up in a picture. So just like the underwater weighing tank is measuring fluid displacement or water displacement, and the bod pod is measuring air displacement. We figured out that we could actually measure somebody’s size or body volume with about 99.8% accuracy from a picture just by looking at how many pixels they displaced or how much space they take up in the image. And from there, we can take that volume measure and estimate density based on how heavy they are, and then convert that to fat, using some pretty standard lab techniques that we have. And then boom, we get numbers that are right in line with what we would get with the egg or with the bod pod or with underwater weighing or skin folds. And the data that it was all based off of at the sample that we had collected were adults 18 up into their eighties. We had a pretty good representation of men and women. We had different race and ethnic groups. And so we had data that we had collected that was pretty representative of the general population. We had a couple athletes in there. And so we knew that we were onto something and we’ve kind of refined the algorithm a few times to account for differences in age and sex and race and fitness level. And I think we actually have a product that we can use it in a research setting to get comparable values to what we get from our lab based techniques. But the benefit like you kind of already mentioned is that it’s portable and it does exist on a smartphone. And the measurements that we can get are so quick and so accurate that a coach could take this and they could scan their entire team one right after another boom, boom, boom, boom. And you could go through the entire basketball team or the entire football team in minutes where it would take hours, days or weeks to go through an entire series of data collection on a big athletics team like that. Speaker 2: 9:25 That’s obviously tremendously exciting. So it sounds to me like we obviously have proof of concept. Has there been any challenge in the industry to say, Hey, I don’t really think that’s going to work, or there’s an issue with their methodology or so far proof of concept is sound no challenges, no issues. Speaker 3: 9:42 We’re so new to this. I mean, our product has just been released and the feedback we received from the research community that we’re acquainted with and professional community had been positive. I’m sure that there are going to be some challenges along the way. But the good thing about the creators of this device are also the ones that are involved in the lab and doing research. And we’re going to work continuously to make our processes even more accurate. There are a few areas in which we’re planning to do the research in already and continue to advance our process. I wanted to mention too, that one of the reasons why some of those techniques that you mentioned have to be modified to count for a certain individual or different individuals is because body composition itself and what optimal body composition may be. That’s individualized as well. In other words, what’s optimal for me is not what’s optimal for everyone else. And sometimes it’s with a mentality of the drive for thinness. We get this stall that, well, everyone should be this certain body weight or this certain size or this certain look, that’s not necessarily the case. It’s individualized. And now we have this device that we’ve created will given the ability for people to measure and take the personal measures to where they better understand what their body composition is and they can make the right decisions. Speaker 4: 10:50 Actually, James, you mentioned something about the skepticism that we’ve gotten from the industry or from the potential users that we’re trying to hook up with. And I appreciate the skepticism. If somebody came and told me that you could measure how much muscle I had from a picture, I think that I would be pretty doubtful that that was actually possible to , and some of the people who doubted that it was even possible. I think it actually turned into some of our bigger advocates because we have the data and we’ve gone and talked to different gyms and different fitness centers on a couple of universities. And we’ve had people come in and go, yeah, man, I almost actually ignored your email when you contacted us about partnering and using the app or our fitness assessments, but then downloaded it. And sure enough, the number that came back with the app was just about where I thought I was. And it’s just about what we got from our bioimpedance device that we already have. And so, yeah, I believe that. And one of the things that we do too, we have our research conference abstracts that we send right along with our emails and we posted them all on social media. So people can have the data. We’ve got our research articles out there to Apple, believe it or not to give them kind of a shout out for the app store when we submitted everything to the app store so that it could go live and people could start downloading it. They actually flagged us. And they said, you can’t do that from a phone man , get outta here. And so they actually required us to submit all of our research data and publications and everything that we had supporting it, which they expected us to come back and be really upset with that . It was dragging out the approval process. But on our end, I appreciate that because that means that somebody can’t come in behind us and say like, no, we have an app that can do that from a picture, too guys, check this out and not have any research or data to back it up. So we actually appreciated that skepticism and we appreciate the hesitation to jump two feet into using the app too . Cause we’d be doubtful. Also Speaker 3: 12:33 The biggest critics that we’ve had have been ourselves when we first started this, we were blown away at the simplicity of it. And we had to continue to analyze the data over and over again, to verify what we were seeing because we’ve been doing this sort of stuff and validating different body composition techniques for years and to have come to this has been remarkable and we were blown away. Speaker 4: 12:52 Good that I made a mistake. Actually, when we were analyzing the data, I sent him a screenshot and I said, Hey man, this correlation is really hot, but I don’t think that I did this right. This can’t actually be true. Speaker 2: 13:03 Right. And in correlation obviously indicating that the relationship is close, this is moving in tandem. And then that’s an important finding your data’s there. The app is here before we dive into the app because I wanted to set the context for how exciting this is. And if you’re a listener who loves nutrition, you’re probably already really excited in . You’re thinking I’m going to download the app right now. And if you’re new to it, we’re going to talk about why this is really exciting. Even if you haven’t ever thought about your body that way. But first, why don’t you both give us a quick background of what you did before this, because you’re coming at this from a scientific angle. This isn’t like you left your profession as a pilot to discover a body fat eater. Tell us about your backgrounds. Speaker 3: 13:38 My personal background is I’ve been doing research in body composition and really addressing the question of how we accurately predict or measure the different parameters of physical fitness. So body composition is one over then. We also have aerobic and muscular fitness and flexibility and all the things that really make what comprises a fit person. So I’ve spent the majority of that and body composition, where we validated different techniques for different people, from athletes to clinical populations to really bring them what we do in the lab and put it in the hands of practitioners and consumers. Most of that is involved. Other techniques like skinfold or circumference measures or different prediction equations with body mass index and have a certain level of accuracy to them. But this has been the most accurate, actually that I’ve come across. Speaker 4: 14:23 When I was in high school, I was about 300 pounds and lost a good chunk of that weight through diet and exercise. And the struggle that I had through high school and through college through undergrad was weight loss, wasn’t linear. And so there were plateaus and there were setbacks. And if I knew what I knew now, back then, I would have been much more successful in the way it would have come off much more quickly. And I think for a long time, the research that I wanted to get into was what are the health risks cause of obesity and having higher body. And then how do we use exercise and a healthy eating strategy to help lose that weight? And so before I got to Alabama, that was a , where a lot of my research was, was the health risks associated with having higher body fat. And then how do we help lower that risk with exercise and then ESCO. And I teamed up about five years ago with our research and really started figuring out how do we measure these changes more accurately? Because the barriers that we kept running into, like he mentioned, where we have this research study, we have one unit on campus. Like we have one decks and machine that we have access to, or we have one underwater weighing tank. And so the logistics of having one machine that’s shared space that all of the researchers are using that every participant would have to go through it . Then we have to schedule a time out. It’s a tremendous time burden. It’s a transportation burden. It’s a cost burden like for our DEXA machine, there’s a radiation safety concern that presents another barrier. And so we were like, there has to be a way to work around this. And so we jokingly agreed a few years ago that we were going to try to move the entire exercise fizz lab into a phone. And so this is kind of our first step. And we had tried to validate other methods and had done research, comparing the accuracy on other techniques. And like you mentioned, this is the one that we feel the most confident about. And we have the strongest data to support. You can move from the lab out into the field without sacrificing too much accuracy. And you can do it compared to DEXA for about 50 to $80,000 cheaper. So that’s a win too. Speaker 2: 16:15 So that brings us to where we are now. Right? You have a long background in this you’re experts in the fields. You’ve discovered something, you’ve proved a concept. You have the research to back it up. And I think we approached this podcast, or at least I wanted to this way to overcome the natural skepticism that is there. But in reality, as you guys both mentioned, I think if you’re starting something new, you really would rather have a lot of skepticism because that means you are truly innovating something brand new, because it’s almost unbelievable. So with that, let’s talk about how this actually works. So if I go download this app on my phone, which I think right now it’s only available on the iPhone. Is that correct Speaker 4: 16:50 Platforms? You can get it on Apple and Android. Speaker 2: 16:52 That’s good because I have an Android and I was going to say, don’t , don’t leave me Nicole . Speaker 4: 16:57 Again , we’re optimized for tablets too, so you can get it on an iPad. Speaker 2: 17:00 I love it. So I go and I download this and you can look right now, I’m looking on my phone. I see it on the app store right now. And it’s right there. I see my Android and I see it on the internet, on the Apple app store. And it’s called me with a blue logo, made health and fitness. And now what happens? I download it. Let’s walk me through it. What do I need to do? How does it work? What’s going on? Yes. Speaker 4: 17:17 We download the app with the download. You get a free scan to try it out right now. So you get to go in and actually test to see if these numbers look like what you’re expecting to. Cause we debated. Did we just have people like trust us and download this and pay for it and then decide to go? Or should we give them the proof like watch this actually does what we’re claiming it does. So download the app is free trial. You can get a scan, check it out to track your data. Long-term , there’s an upgrade for that. So it is a paid app. When you go in, you set up your user profile, we ask you to enter your age and your sex and your race, your height and weight. And then we have just a couple of basic fitness questions that we have you answer also. So how many days a week do you typically exercise? And then how many push-ups can you do to be kind of a crude marker of muscular fitness? Now , from there, your profile set up that all the program actually takes as a single image taken from the front view. So if you turn your camera to selfie mode and take a total body selfie from head to toe , we have an automated image analysis program that scans your image, filters out the backgrounds and identifies all the landmarks that we need on the body. And once we’ve identified those landmarks and kind of pinpointed them, it takes about 20 seconds for us to actually calculate body fat percentage. And then because you’ve told us your weight, when you set up your user profile and we can back calculate and figure out how much of your percent body weight is fat mass in , in raw pounds and then fat free mass in raw pounds. And the cool thing about the app too, is that we can also tell where most of that fat you can have it where you’re storing it. So we can tell whether it’s being stored kind of around your midsection. So in the Android region, like belly fat, we can also tell the users if it’s being stored kind of around their hips and thighs. So kind of gyno weight in the lower body, Speaker 2: 18:56 Which is just remarkable, like hearing you describe this, you’re thinking that’s incredibly right now, my process is I go grab my caliper. I do a couple of skinfold measurements. I look at the table, I find my age. I get a range that works right every week you do that. And it certainly works enough. It’s a benchmark as you’re mentioning, but with this, I can take one photo. I presume each week I could take one photo and I can watch my progress. So let’s just take a hypothetical male and say that male weighs 200 pounds and they’re 15% body fat. So they weigh 170 is lean muscle mass and 30 pounds is fat and they want to lose some weight. Obviously, if they’re going to lose weight and maintain their muscle, they’re going to see that their body fat number drop as they lose the weight, but their fat free muscle mass, as you’re mentioning, stay roughly the same. And that is now worth full circle. That’s the benefit of not just looking at the scale is if they go from 200 to one 90, but they’ve maintained most of their muscle mass they’ve actually changed their overall body composition. And they’re watching it in real time with an app that is going to track their progress. It becomes a record keeper. Speaker 4: 19:55 Absolutely. The cool thing about the app too, when you’re taking those pictures to track changes over time, the device doesn’t store the app, doesn’t store the images. So when we’re analyzing those images, the app doesn’t see them like a person never actually sees the picture that you take. So it’s not stored. And we did that for privacy reasons. We didn’t want images getting out or to be a hack or something happened to where everybody’s personal health information. And in these images of people are floating around the internet. So we decided to just completely walk away from that. And so we take the image, it goes up to the cloud, it’s analyzed. And then the only place that had ever exists is on your phone. And so if you don’t have it stored to your camera roll, it goes away completely, which we did again, very, very kind of strategically and changes over time. We’ve been have been really cool to look at. Obviously we just finished Thanksgiving and we’re kind of going into the holiday season and we were tracking changes in our body, composition the holidays in our group message. Cause I think you have Thanksgiving and everybody goes, Oh my gosh, I gained like seven pounds this week. This is crazy. And you take a scan and you realize that 95% of that is waterway . And so it’s not that big of a deal because the app is sensitive enough to capture those changes to where the scale may have increased. And so you are heavier, but most of that is being tracked as fat free mass. Cause you haven’t gotten any bigger in a week to where they would cause significant changes in body fat. So that is one of the cool things about the app is that we’re sensitive enough to detect those really small changes. And we can pinpoint which part of you is changing fat mass or fat free mass with really good accuracy, Speaker 2: 21:24 Which again is just remarkable. As you just mentioned, right? For anyone who’s been in the fitness world, maybe you tried to lose some weight you’ve done. So for a while you start eating again, you get some surplus calories and you see the scale shoot up four pounds and you’re thinking what is going on, right? And of course, that’s that water weight that you’re mentioning, but this alleviates the fluctuation of the scale. A lot of people step on the scale every day and it moves a lot and they overreact or under-react. And what you just said in reality is often the most important takeaway that number is not that important. What’s important is what’s happening with my fat free muscle mass, what’s happening with my lean weight, et cetera. And I think this is really exciting for someone like myself who loves nutrition, because this does have the opportunity to really change everyone. Like you mentioned, if you’re an elite athlete here at university of Florida, what happened during COVID? The players were not on campus. They weren’t near the coaches. They were having to work out on their own. The nutritionist had no idea what was happening with their progress. They had no way to measure it. Same thing at the university you’re at. So this is such an interesting application because you can think of this applying to everyone, whether you’re 75 or you’re 18, or you’re again, a lead athlete, we can warrior all across the spectrum, knowing what your lean body mass is, is such an important thing. But for a long time, it seems like really only maybe the bodybuilding community or the elite athletes or those would ever view their body that way. Speaker 4: 22:39 That’s absolutely correct. A person doesn’t have to wait months down the line to get a DEXA scan or an underwater weighing measure or any other more invasive body composition techniques. They can take it right onto their phone and do it routinely and make decisions earlier on to make some changes. If they see increases in fat mass decreases in fat free mass, when they’re running the opposite, they can detect those changes much earlier. Yeah, I think COVID has really brought a lot to the forefront. Like a lot of the limitations and things that we were doing in the industry in athletics and in the fitness industry, it really brought them forefront. And I think we’ve done a good job of pivoting hard, right? So COVID hit last spring, everyone got sent home, all the athletes were released and we were like, okay, well how are we going to keep them training? And like on their plans, working out the way they’re supposed to, how do we track progress? So teams were sending wearable devices to track workouts. They were videotaping workouts, but the one thing they couldn’t capture was actual changes in muscle mass and fat mass. And so now we have that, you could send the athlete home in the off season and put them through a workout program and have them do weekly check-ins with the app. And you can measure at least to make sure that they’re maintaining muscle mass and not seeing big shifts in fat master in the off season and from the fitness industry. From that perspective, I think this has really opened up a lot of opportunity for online coaching. So we have a number of people that we’re working with that do personal training or do group fitness classes, they’re zooming or streaming them for their members, but they don’t have access to their facilities. So they can’t come in in person to do check-ins or fitness assessments. They don’t have those same luxuries that we used to. So they’re teaching online, they’re doing personal training online, and now they can track online also because with the app, a person can take a picture from their home that you can be working with a client and they can take a picture at home on their own device and then share the results directly with their trainers. So we can export that via text message or through email, and you can send your results to your trainer every time you step on the scale, you can snap another image and send them a real time , updated live body composition number. And you can do that weekly. You can do a biweekly , you can check in as often as you want to. So now we’ve eliminated that barrier and we’ve also eliminated the barrier of time when people eventually do go back to the gyms and when they do get back in person, we don’t need to spend an entire session now meeting with somebody for a fitness assessment and to spend 45 minutes getting ready for an underwater weighing we’re going through all of our skinfold tests. You can have somebody scan at home and send the results before they get in for their fitness assessment and then be ready to talk about the results when they get there. And so I think this has really opened up a lot of opportunities for us. Speaker 2: 25:11 Yeah. Again, it’s one of those things and , and I’ve done obviously a lot of podcasts here at the Cade with people doing amazing things. And this one is maybe one of the most immediately useful and societal changing right now. I think you have less than a couple hundred downloads. You just released the app. But if you look at other fitness apps, they have tens of millions of downloads. And obviously again, I think yours has the potential to go beyond that. So if you’re looking to get on the ground floor of something as , Hey, I was in on this app early, maybe this is the one to download and try it out. Let’s ask the tough question then here at the end. So the investor side of me always wants to know, look, this sounds so good. This seems so useful. It actually lines up with something I do in my own life. Everything about it seems too good to be true. What are some potential hurdles that would prevent this from working three or four years from now, we look back and say, you know, this just didn’t work. What are those hurdles? Or are there none Speaker 3: 25:58 When we’re doing the research on it to come up with the algorithms and then research going forward, we’re really good at controlling how the picture was taken, the lighting, the clothing, but now the app is in the user’s hands. So it’s up to them to make sure that that everything in the image is appropriate, where we see an accuracies or where our process doesn’t work is if the body is not in the right position or if the lighting is inappropriate or if they’re wearing baggy clothes or if there’s too much noise in the background. So it’s very important that the user follows the instructions that are on the app. And once all those assumptions are met, then our accuracy is as good as, or better than any of the other techniques that are on the market and much simpler. Yeah . Speaker 4: 26:35 And ASCO. And I were very careful when we were planning like what we want the app to be and what we want the company to be. And so we had really hard meetings about, we saw our growth kind of strategically and where we wanted to be in five years. And I think we’ve heard this phrase, like stay in your own lane. We don’t want to be in a position where we’re delivering fitness advice or exercise prescriptions or programming within the app. We envision this as being just a measurement tool. And so we want this to be the go-to first option for body composition now, but then every other test that you can do in the lab, aerobic fitness, or muscular strength or endurance or power, whatever you want to measure in the lab, we want this to be also a part of the app. So we have plans to expand to the research side of things and develop additional features, but we don’t want to try to edge out personal trainers or the group fitness staff, or we don’t want to try to edge out and try to be the next Fitbit. We actually want to partner with the next Fitbit. And we don’t want to edge out and try to muscle in on my fitness pal. Right? Cause those are probably the two giants right now. We’ve got a few 30 million and 20 million active users on those two platforms. We don’t want to try to edge those folks out. We want to have people use this in addition to them. So if you have a fitness program or you have an app that’s already tracking your workouts, or if you have something that’s established and it’s working, we want to be the go-to for measuring your progress in every aspect. And so I think where this goes wrong is if we get away from that and start trying to be things that we’re not our research is in validating this device for tracking changes, but not causing the changes through the exercise or through the diet or through whatever workout program you’re on. It’s a great point. We want to show that what a person may be following that exercise or diet program that it’s actually working and doing what they want it to do. We’ve talked to, we teach our students this in class. We say, look, your prescription has to be individualized. Like you can’t train everyone the exact same way. You wouldn’t put everybody on the exact same deal planet . Everyone is different. And so we wouldn’t assume that we could just box up a workout program within the app and give it to everybody and expect to get the same results. And so we really believe since we’re teaching our students that , and since we believe that medicine and your exercise program should be individualized, keep working with the experts that are giving you the individualized program, like keep working with your strength and conditioning coaches. Absolutely. And keep going out and working with registered dieticians and personal trainers. Absolutely just use us to track the changes. And I think that’s the one piece that all of these other programs and these other apps are missing is that they’re great at the programming piece, but we want to be the ones that are tracking the changes. Speaker 2: 29:08 And that’s what makes it is so important in life. Pretty much, no matter what you’re doing, you have to have an accurate way to evaluate your progress. And that’s what you’re talking about. And in fact, I love in a world of free ideas and free exchange that if you’re really good at what you do, you’re going to have proof behind that. And now if you’re a strength trainer, you can tell the prospective client, let me show you how good I am at having my clients gain muscle over time and then change their body. And their body composition here is the data, right? And pulls out a sheet and it’s tracked everything. That’s happened with a thousand people that they’ve used on this app. Here’s their body composition changes in the first six months. I work with them. Speaker 3: 29:45 How many trainers take before? And after pictures, now we can quantify what the picture is showing. Yeah. Speaker 2: 29:49 And you can see it. You can show it to a person that’s so long. It takes here’s what the experience is. Here’s someone in your similar range and that’s obviously very powerful and that’s accurate. As you’re saying accurate data is what allows us to get better, be more precise, do things more efficiently, really exciting stuff, right? Let’s end the show with something that we always do here at decayed . And of course you were a Cade finalist for the Cade prize this year. And it’s important for you guys to pass on some words of wisdom. So I imagine once upon a time, neither of you probably dreamt of being an entrepreneur per se, but yet you both find yourself now in that boat, give us some tips for those who maybe don’t see themselves as entrepreneurs or those who are going through it right now. What are some words of wisdom? Speaker 4: 30:27 I got one actually right here. So looking back over the past five or six years, the best things that have happened to me and for this project and for the business are the breaks that didn’t end up panning out. Every roadblock that we ran into. So we try to recruit PhD students. They decide to go somewhere else. We apply for grant funding. We don’t end up getting it. It goes to someone else, right? So if one of those breaks would have happened over the past five or six years. So I do get the student that decided to go to another school, or I did get a grant that took my research in a different direction. The app wouldn’t be here, right? Because I’d be working on something else. Like my research agenda when I first started in Alabama was different than it is now. And so now five or six years later, and we have a startup , we haven’t had we’re on a podcast, like look at how different this is , ended up based on where we started. And when you keep running into these roadblocks and people keep telling you no, and you keep getting rejected and rejected and rejected, those could end up being the biggest breaks that you will ever get is thank you for telling me know so that I will end up being where I’m supposed to be. I mean, man, if you think about that, I’m getting goosebumps right now. But I mean, that is really like the best piece of advice. If you keep getting rejected, that is probably a good thing. Because if you believe in what you’re doing, like the next opportunity is right there. Speaker 3: 31:44 That’s a great point. And along those lines, just go, just move, just keep going forward and keep pushing forward. When we started this, we had no idea. And we were professors we’re in a lab, we’re in a classroom. We’ve had a little bit of practical experience, but not near as much as academics. We were reluctant to even get started. But we went forward and the barriers that we thought were there were not even there in the first place. We had tremendous support. I mean, support came out all over from our Dean and our administrators at the university of Alabama partners showed up and we surround ourselves with a great team and we’re continuing to build our team and learn along the way and just trust the process and everything will work out. It gets stressful, but we grow through stress and we just keep pushing through, keep moving our Dean. Speaker 4: 32:26 You use the phrase when we pitched this to our Dean, he said, man, that sounds crazy. It sounds great. You guys do your thing, whatever you need from us just goes , zoom, zoom. So we started laughing. We were like, who says that in a meeting? But he’s like, yeah, you guys just go zoom, zoom and let me know. Or I can. And so we went at zoom, zoom, and everybody, we kept turning around and saying like, Hey, we have this idea and they go, man, nobody’s done that before. So I don’t even know where we can help you out, but go for it. And so I think that energy is contagious. And so we went zoom, zoom, and that’s our running joke now is keep going forward. And that energy is like, people will see that. And they’ll be like, man, I want to be a part of what those guys are doing over there. Even though we have no idea what we’re doing, because nobody, nobody certainly that we know has been where we are. And we’ve never even imagined that we would be here either. So yeah, it goes, zoom, zoom, man, everybody will catch on and they’ll want to help point to bring up quickly. We’re passionate about this. This is our life. This is what we spend our time doing. This is what we enjoy doing. And that passion that’s what drives our energy. And that’s what really makes us want to continue to go to, and we know that we have a bright product and we know we have a great vision for the future. And those things are very important. Speaker 2: 33:32 Yeah. Great idea. And the execution of it is often the intersection of thousands of life experiences and learning points before it, that culminate into where you are. And then you have to have the optimistic view of the future to overcome setbacks, hurdles, things that seem bad and turn them into things that can work out to your good. And both of you have definitely echoed that. Well, my guest today, Michael fetal and Mike ESCO, the co-founders of made health and fitness app that tracks of course, body fat, amongst many other things. This could potentially be the next big thing. And you heard it here first on Radio Cade. Thanks for joining us both today. It was a great discussion for Radio Cade. James Di Virgilio Speaker 1: 34:13 Radio Cade is produced by the Cate museum for creativity and invention located in Gainesville, Florida. This podcast episodes host was James Di Virgilio and Ellie, Tom coordinates, inventor interviews, podcasts are recorded at hardwood , soundstage and edited and mixed by Bob McPeak. The Radio Cade theme song was produced and performed by Tracy Collins and features violinist, Jacob Lawson.

Deals Dont Close Themselves (LA 1057) Transcript: Speaker 1:                           Steve and Jill here. Jill DeWit:                            Guten tag. Steven Butala:                   Welcome. You look up different ways to say hello? Jill DeWit:                            I only know about four in case you haven't noticed. Steven Butala:                   Welcome to the Land Academy show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Jill DeWit:                            And I'm Jill DeWitt, broadcasting from sunny Southern California. Steven Butala:                   Today Jill and I talk about how deals don't close themselves. Jill DeWit:                            Oh, I wish they did. And it's funny how many people think that once you just get the ball rolling it's just going to happen. Yeah, yeah right. Steven Butala:                   Jill and I have actively chosen, we can choose what to work on. We're at that point in our career. We can choose to develop new websites that we can sell to private equity companies, which we're doing. We can choose to work on real estate deals, which we're doing. What we've actively chosen for the next few months, to sit in an office together, for better, for worse. And I create and generate real estate transactions and Jill does them. And what I've learned, and then thus the title of this show, is how much freaking work goes into purchasing a piece of property. Just on the phone and there's a lot of time and a lot of manipulation and just a lot of stuff to do to get somebody to sign, to get a deal done. Let's just put it that way and we'll talk all about it. Steven Butala:                   Before we get into it. Let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Jill DeWit:                            Daniel shares. "Hi everyone. I know that the majority of the people in this community sell land for cash and I usually do as well. However, I have a piece of land in Utah that I'd like to sell on terms. I'm hoping that someone can share a good template for a land contract that they're using. Cheers, Daniel." Well, that's probably in chapter eight, nine. I don't know. Steven Butala:                   Yeah, there's- Jill DeWit:                            We have one in there. Steven Butala:                   Yeah, in the cash flow ... The original program, Cash Flow from Land program. There's contracts. Jill DeWit:                            Exactly. Steven Butala:                   It's all at the end. There's a bunch of agreements and tools and a dictionary and all kinds of stuff. But I'll tell you this, I'm glad you mentioned Utah because every state's very, very different on this topic. And as people get more creative from how they invest in real estate, us included, there are more and more rules being developed state by state. So check Utah and they may say, I'm sure that they're going to have a lot to say on how you sell a property on terms. Steven Butala:                   For example, we used to do a lot of term sales in Arizona and California and they're so dramatically different, and Colorado. Really dramatically different on how you're supposed to sell property on terms. So step one is not so much a contract. Step one is to really pull the statutes and talk to some people who are already doing it successfully. Which is what you're probably doing here and glad. Jill DeWit:                            Thank you. Steven Butala:                   Did he stop it? Deals don't close themselves. This is the meat of the show. Jill DeWit:                            You were talking to the intro, you heard ... It was making me think of the call that I had with the sweet lady named [Mai 00:03:15] yesterday, who you heard about oh, six phone calls back and forth. Steven Butala:                   Yeah. Jill DeWit:                            "How about this?" "Okay, I'll talk to my husband.

Why HouseAcademy Launch was so Successful (LA 1048) Transcript: Speaker 1:           Steven jewel here. Hello. Welcome to the Land Academy show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala Speaker 2:           And I'm Jill Dewitt, broadcasting from sunny southern California Speaker 1:           Today. Jill and I talk about why, how's academy, why the launch was so successful? What do you think? Really quickly Speaker 2:           I will [inaudible] Speaker 1:           Buyer's ready to go. That's what I think too. Okay. That's exactly what I think. I think people in our land academy for things and that's people in our Atlanta Academy group. We're just ready to expand into a different product type and add it to their business. Is that what you mean by ready to go? Yup. Awesome. Me Too. Speaker 2:           I'll elaborate one way. How often is it that we agree on this show? Look at us. We've come a long way, baby. You know what it's like. It's like we could read each other's mind. Gosh. It's like every man's nightmare. I'm going to, next time I'm going to, next time I say oven. Yeah. I know exactly what you're thinking. You're going to go spoil. I hope not. Yeah. Speaker 1:           Before we get into it. Let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Jeremy Ass. Speaker 2:           I'm an ex. Pat. Been living around Southeast Asia for the past few years and really don't have plans to be in the u s for a few more than a few weeks a year. Is there anyone else here that operates from outside the U s I'd love to hear what road bumps you have had due to location. This biggest ones I'm currently predicting have to do with paying for the land. The advice I hear is to send out a mobile notary with a deed and a cashier's check, but not being the U s I'm not sure how I would actually mail the note or a cashier's check. Thoughts on this or anything else that might be missing. Speaker 1:           It's interesting we had this topic yet on our Thursday call last week, Thursday webinar and Joel answer, you know, go ahead and answer it because I am Ireland. My advice, yeah, it's going to be very shortened and at the end, indifferent. Speaker 2:           Yeah. Yours is very different than mine. Well [inaudible] my advice was do like this person's doing and put a note in land investors and talk to other members because we've had several of their members that have done this successfully. So, and the Nice thing is you can get a, you can get a mail place in the United States like a remote nail place, so your mail looks like it's coming and going from the U S and they'll bundle it up for you. We'll even open it and scan it for you. So it takes a lot of that part out of it. But there are a few things like this like, okay, how am I going to get money over there real quick? I mean you could maybe wire money. It does. There's just some tricky issues and I know everybody has different ways that they do. I'm trying to think what else I, what else did I say about it yesterday? I already for the, there's Speaker 1:           A lot of ways to address all the little tiny things that need to go on in the land transaction from another country. But here's the way they address them all in my opinion. Get yourself a partner that's in state side and who's close to a bank branch and cut them in on the, maybe somebody that's retired, maybe an old buddy something where you guys have a joint bank account. And he's, you know, understands computers and how to print stuff out and, and that is easy, you know, that is the absolute best way. So I'll tell you. So here's an example. I mean, I see how I run these companies could be run from anywhere cause I don't actually do any of the real work except for like the stuff that I on a computer. So I can do this from Japan easily. [inaudible] Cause I know store the bank anyway, we did that on purpose, right? So you don't,

Working with Your Spouse (LA 1047) Transcript: Speaker 1:           Steve and Jill here. Hi, welcome to the Land Academy show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala and I'm Jill Dewitt, broadcasting from sunny southern California. Hi, Jill and I talk about working with your spouse. Speaker 1:           I love it. I have never seen you feverously scribble notes before an episode like you just did just now. I have a lot to say, so this is either going to go really well for me or not. It's going to go just one. We felt our group took a while. That's it. You've got to find your group like a decade. I can help. Yeah, that's true. Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Tabitha shares new member here. I've decided on two counties to mail, but wondering has anyone used the data list they downloaded for county more than once for a mailing for instance, or if I choose to only mail one fourth of the list after it's been scrubbed, but say the remainder to mail a month or a couple months later, is that feasible? Yes. Or does the data change rapidly enough that it's worth pulling and paying for the data? Again, for rural vacant land, you're going to be fine. Speaker 2:           Okay. Speaker 1:           In fact, real quest itself, we're a licensed provider, shows you how the age of the data exactly for houses. If you wait in a, in a real Hyde style, real low days on market area Speaker 1:           Yeah. Can you go turn that fan on? Yes. In a real low days on market area, Speaker 3:           You're going to see exactly how many d properties are turning. So if you've got a universe of properties in a zip code that are like a 5,000 and you've got two or three or 400 turning every month, which is substantial percentage wise, you might want to refresh the data and here's why data's real cheap. You don't have a line of data's 10 cents through us. You're not going to find it much cheaper than that. Right? What's expensive is the mail. So you don't want, you don't want to let this data kind of age on your desktop in excel for too long because now you're wasting 55 cents to send a send out an offer to somebody that's no longer there versus just 10 cents to to get you know, to purchase a data and keep it [inaudible]. Speaker 1:           So what do you think? I think, let's just say if she did it within 90 days. Speaker 3:           Yeah. Okay. I mean for houses you gotta be for houses? No, I think you need real fresh data for rural vacant land, I really think you can get away with you can get away Speaker 1:           Voter data a little longer. Yeah. So I think that's a really good question. And so we will do that. Like, like, you know, you don't want to send out 8,000 at once. Maybe you can't handle that, you know, volume wise, but maybe you can do chunks of 1500 at a time and have the next six weeks. You don't have 1500 drop in 1500 job and then play with it. And you'll know next time. Yep. I can more, I should pull less. No kind of thing. Speaker 3:           Earlier on in the life of this podcast, we were really advocated sending out 1500 units a month. Right. and [inaudible] yeah. Well yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, I really we're experimenting personally in our own company sending out 20,000 units all at once and it's actually working out pretty well, but we're really well staffed. Speaker 1:           It's so nice. The more that you send out, I will say this, the more you send out, the more deals that come back, the more you get to review at that one time and pick the top five or 10 or whatever you could afford or handle. That's the best. So I love it. And now deal funny, you can handle more, but just more. Speaker 3:           We're just on vacation. A couple of episodes. We were talking to a guy, we were talking about it and we got like a VRVO with another family. So it was a house and the backyard was a source...

Real Estate Product Type and Financial Goal Setting (LA 1045) Transcript: Speaker 1:                           00:01                     Steve and Jill here. Good day. Speaker 2:                           00:03                     Welcome to the Land Academy show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala and Jill dewitt broadcasting from sunny southern California. Today Jill and I talk about real estate pro, a real estate product type and financial goal setting. Speaker 1:                           00:18                     This is sounding like a real exciting show. Boy, I can't wait Speaker 2:                           00:24                     every week we have webinars for Land Academy House Academy, and for our advanced group members. And this came up in great detail last week. You know, and people were shocked because I think people's schedule, uh, set up budgets just like I want to make a a hundred grand this year instead of really getting into an about product type and setting the gold per product type every week. How many levers it back into it. So I'll cover it all. I know it's Boring Gel, but it's important. Speaker 1:                           00:55                     I have to tell you, I took no notes. I'm gonna just ask questions before we get into it. Speaker 2:                           01:01                     Okay, that's perfect. Let's take a question posted by one of our members on the landinvestors.com online community. It's free. Is this a real name? No, I don't think so. Speaker 1:                           01:12                     Okay, but somebody put it in there like that. I copied and pasted it. Okay. Do it has in there. Wait a minute. If it was real well I haven't, I know of there's like, there was a, um, this is funny cases. Really good to, if you know who this is, you're going to go, how the heck do you know that one, Jill? But from the 80s there was a actor slash dancer who did a break dancing movies and it was Adolfo Shabu Quinones. This is coming from, I can't remember what happened yesterday. I know. I just heard cause I rivers watching. I had a couple of friends that really likes the breakdancing and I watched the movies with your friends, your friends. Like the Lord knows I can't dance so I couldn't do it. But anyway, it was a, it was a thing in the 80s right? For five minutes. So yeah, friends like to consume alcohol too. Don't there. Who? My friends, my car friends do. Speaker 1:                           02:18                     I have a friend who likes to watch break dancing. I'm, even though I've memorized it, right? The actor's name from the 80s it's all your friends. I'm sure it's right. So, uh, shabu says asking for a friend. Just kidding. Okay. Who has hired a transaction coordinator? I was looking, I've hired good ones and not good ones. I was looking to see if anyone would mind sharing their TC job description with me. Right now I am a one man show, but I'm trying to get an idea of what I could expect. Should I locally post a job for a transaction coordinator out of the public in my, out to the public in my area. I understand that. I will train them for my own specific systems and needs, but I wanted to get a real feel for what a land investors centric transaction coordinator job description might look like. I happen to have one of those. Oh by the way, I have a lot of stuff to say. I appreciate any guidance or advice or if you wouldn't mind emailing, emailing me one or if you know one posted online, I'd really appreciate the assist. Thanks in advance. Speaker 2:                           03:25                     Do you have a job description memorized? Cause I know you guys just sent all that out. Speaker 1:                           03:29                     I do not. I do not. I'm yours Speaker 2:                           03:33                     cause I have a lot to say on this. This is so important. This is a great question. And it,

Managing Your Business on Vacation (LA 1044) Transcript: Speaker 2: (06:06) If you enjoyed the podcast, please review it in Apple Podcasts . Reviews are incredibly important for rankings on Apple Podcasts. My staff and I read each and every one. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to email me directly at steven@BuWit.com. The BuWit Family of Companies include: https://BuWit.com https://offers2owners.com https://landinvestors.com https://landacademy.com https://landpin.com https://parcelfact.com https://countywise.com https://deedperfect.com https://ownersdata.com https://houseacademy.com I would like to think it's entertaining and informative and in the end profitable. And finally, don't forget to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript: Speaker 1:           Steven and Jill here. Speaker 2:           Hi there. Speaker 1:           Welcome to the Land academy show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Speaker 2:           And I'm Jill DeWit broadcasting from the sunny southern California. Speaker 1:           Today Jill and I are talking about why playing at your level is imperative. Speaker 2:           Steven do you always play at your level?

Transcript: Speaker 1:           Steven and Jill here. Speaker 2:           Hi there. Speaker 1:           Welcome to the Land academy show, entertaining land investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Speaker 2:           And I'm Jill DeWit broadcasting from the sunny southern California. Speaker 1:           Today Jill and I are talking about why playing at your level is imperative. Speaker 2:           Steven do you always play at your level?

The Epiphany Bridge, State Control, Kinda Like Bridges Today's episode is part 1 of a 3 part series of Russell speaking at a $100k event where he taught about the psychology of funnels. Here are some of the things you will hear in part 1: How if you have something you are geeking out over or passionate about, it is the perfect thing to sell others on. How the epiphany bridge works including how to get your audience to have the same epiphany you had in order to get them to buy into you. And how to tell a story to make your audience feel how you felt. So listen below to hear the first part of Russell's presentation about the epiphany bridge. ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:           How many of you have this thing called a website? Okay. Speaker 2:           What's that? Speaker 1:           Now, yeah it's this thing on this thing called the internet, that came out a couple decades ago. I look at anything online as real estate. Back in my direct mail days, when there was no internet, I always loved the line, “The difference between a one dollar bill and a hundred dollar bill is the message on the paper.” Same paper, same ink, different message. One change in the message could make that same piece of paper worth a hundred times more. The same thing goes with any of the virtual space. It's what you say, how you say it, how you compel people. Someone that actually knows how to print virtual money, would be Russell Brunson, and he has a whole process and a whole company and a whole software that can do this for you, and so he's going to take you through something that I'm sure could be potentially worth millions, if not tens of millions of dollars to all of you. Give it up for Mr. Russell Brunson. Russell Brunson:               Well, I'm excited to be here. Excited to share some cool stuff. I didn't do my presentation until last night, cause I wanted to see what you guys, what I think would be the most help for everyone. That's kind of where I came up with some handouts. Do you guys all have these? Okay, so what I want to do is, I'm not going to show you guys anything about click funnels, cause that doesn't matter. I want to bridge some gaps, hopefully help you guys understand the psychology of funnels, cause if you understand that, then everything else becomes easier. I think that's the most essential part for us as the entrepreneurs in the business, to really understand. Hopefully this will kind of bridge some of the things from the copywriting and other things we've been talking about. Okay, a couple things. Craig yesterday was talking about Maslov's hierarchy of needs, which was like, I was totally geeking out and loving it. I look at things very similar. I just flip it on the side kind of. I want to kind of reshow this, cause it'll help my next thing I'm going to explain make more sense. I look at the world where there's like, there's cold traffic, there's warm traffic and then there's hot traffic, right? I got the picture there in my little handouts. If you've ever read my book, Dot Com Secrets, I sketch out everything I do, cause I'm a visual person, so this is the sketch. I learned this originally from Jean Schwartz. He talked about, if you look at any market, there's this awareness, this cycle of awareness, right? Where we hear people are unaware of what's happening. After they're unaware, eventually they become problem aware. From problem, they become solution aware. From solution, they become product aware. Then they're most aware. Just kind of noticing, the peoples companies here who are doing well, but not where they want to be, it's almost … The biggest thing I see everyone doing, is that you've become masters at selling here. This is the warm market, right? You become really good at that, but to scale, you've got to step back. You've got to come back to here. This is like your existing audience, who loves you. This is like Facebook, they love the market, but they don't understand you. This is like the cold, hard masses and in my mind, the only way to drill past 10 million or so … I think most businesses can be really successful here, you have to master this to get to about 10 and beyond 10, you've got to become a master of this. This is like, how do you create your offer in a way that it goes to the masses, which is very similar to what Craig was talking about. That's kind of how I look at things, and it kind of leads me to the first important thing I want to talk about here. It's called the Epiphany Bridge. Anybody here ever done network marketing? Speaker 1:           We're very [inaudible 00:07:36] Russell Brunson:               [inaudible 00:07:36], they've done network marketing. Okay, so I'm going to grab something real quick, cause it'll help illustrate this. I have a buddy who started a network marketing company and he wanted me to join in and to market. I said no a million times, but eventually he sent me some of the product. I loved it, it was really, really good. This is a company called Prove It. Anybody here ever heard of Prove It? No one here? Okay. If you've studied Dave Ashbury's stuff about high fat diet, skinnier body [inaudible 00:08:03], this is the product they made. You drink it, outs your body immediately in ketosis. Tastes like candy, and it's awesome. I helped them write a pitch and wrote this pitch for them. They took it out and in the first six months, the company had $20 million dollars this pitch. This year'll be over a hundred million dollars, and it's just growing like crazy, because of the pitch. Now, I want to explain. After the pitch, they wanted me to come out to the leadership team and explain to these network marketers how to use this [inaudible 00:08:30] that I created for them, right? I'm like, I love network marketers, but I'm also scared to death of them, cause they're like … They just pounce on you. You know, that feeling where you're just like, I was getting pounced by everyone. I come in this room, and I walk in, it's this room, probably about three times as many people as this, and they want me to show them how to use this new message to sell more stuff. I'm looking out in the audience, and I'm trying to think, “What am I going to talk about to these guys. They don't understand funnels or marketing. They're a bunch of people who are selling stuff. As I'm looking out at this audience, of these network marketers, and prior to me coming in the room, I was watching them as they were pouncing on hotel employees and other people, and I had this thing just popped in to my head. I want to share this, cause it's the key now to everything we do. This is a typical person, right? I'm going to make fun of network marketers, but this is you, right? In your business. We were born, we went to school, things were going well, and all of a sudden, something happened in your life that got you excited about what you're excited about, right? Dean probably, initially he sold a car and was like, “Holy crap. I can sell cars and make money.” Right? Then he sold a house. Every one of you guys, something happened. You were just normal humans. Something happened and all of a sudden, you had an epiphany, where you were like, “Holy crap, real estate's the greatest thing in the world. Holy crap, financial stuff.” Something happened, where you had this big epiphany, and it changed your whole life, right? Do you guys all remember that moment, when it happened for you? He got his epiphany and then he went over here and then all of a sudden, the worst thing possible happened. You started like, “This is the coolest thing in the world.” You start geeking out on it, right? I'll draw this dude with glasses. You start geeking out, and you're like, “Oh this is so cool.” You start studying, and you just start doing the research, and you start going deep. I was looking at these network marketers, and I was like, “This product …” I was watching these guys in the hallway and people walking by, and they're pouncing on people, and they're like, “Dude, you've got to quit burning glucose. That's why you're so fat. You got to switch your fuel from glucose to ketones. If you do that, you won't be fat anymore.” It's like, “Man, if you had beta hydroxy blueberry salt in your drinks and in your coffee …” All this stuff. I'm watching this, right? What happens is we come in to this world, we get excited, and we start geeking out, and the worst thing possible happens to us. We learn this thing we call techno babble. In every one of your businesses, you've got a crap ton of techno babble, right? IT's these words that you use to describe things. What happens is, you meet this prospect, and they're so cool, and you grab them, and you're like, “Okay, this is my prospect. I've got my shot at him.” You're about to, like, “I'm going to tell him everything I know, and they're going to buy my crap, and it's going to be amazing.” Then it's “blugh,” and you spew out all this techno babble on the person, right? I'm watching these network marketers just spew out this stuff out at people and they're freaking out and they run away. For most of your businesses, how many of you guys know that you use techno babble? There's words for your industry that you use, that you shouldn't probably be using, okay? The reason why … What happens, this warm market understands your techno babble. They're excited and they'll buy your crap over and over and over and over again. Okay? Everybody else? They haven't geeked out yet. They key, this is what I found, the key for me to sell anything, is I have to stop this right here. I've got to cross out techno babble and I've got to stop this, cause this is what kills sales. I've got to figure out what was it that gave me the experience that caused me to go on this journey? If I can figure out what gave me this epiphany, and if I can give somebody else that epiphany, I do not have to sell them anything, ever. They'll have that epiphany in their mind and they're going to geek out and then they will cause a revolution. They will go so crazy on it. I've got to step back here. When I was talking to this network marketing group, and the pitch I wrote … I was telling Craig this yesterday. I got equity for the company for writing a pitch. It took me less than an hour to write the entire thing. The reason why, the [inaudible 00:12:11] wrote this pitch he sent to me, it was like the worst thing ever. I was dry heaving in my mouth, like “Ugh, that was such a bad …” It was all this. Thousands of pounds of techno babble, just spewing forth and I couldn't even read the whole thing. I was like, “This is so bad.” He's a friend, it was like two o'clock in the morning, I was sitting in bed. I was like, “I know he's going to call me, wanting me to critique it and give him feedback, but it just sucks, the whole thing.” I just deleted the whole thing and I was like, “I'm just going to rewrite this for him.” The first thing I did, is I was like … Cause I believe in this product. I believe in the concept. I was like, “This is really, really cool.” I was like, “What was it that gave me the epiphany, that got me excited? Why do I drink this crap every day now? What was it that gave me that epiphany?” I was thinking back and it took me a while to realize. I was thinking like, “When was it? Some time in my life, something happened where I was sold on that.” Then I was going back here, and all of a sudden, I remembered. I remembered the moment that I had the epiphany. I was at a seminar. I went out to eat with my buddy, his name's Aaron Lily. Do you guys ever remember in Skymall Magazine, the cream that they would sell that you put on your mole and your mole would fall off? Have you ever seen that? He's the inventor of that. I'm out to dinner with the guy. Super cool, doing insane amounts of money with that business. We sit down to eat and he's super ripped and healthy and everything and he … I order this amazing dinner, and he's ordering chicken with a side of butter. I thought it was weird. Then he's eating it, and he's dipping his chicken in butter and eating it and I'm like, “Dude, you are a freak. What's wrong?” He was like, “Oh, it's this whole thing.” All of a sudden, he started giving me techno babble and so I started making fun of him more, cause it just that gave me fuel for my teasing, right? I'm making fun of him and he's like, “No, no,” He said, “Okay, let me explain it like this.” He's like, “Your body … ” Wow. “Your body's kind of like a campfire, right?” He said, “If you think about it, you have a campfire, you feed it kindling, right? You throw a bunch of kindling on it, what happens?” I was like, “It burns really fast, then it goes away.” He's like, “Okay, cool. That's like carbs. That's why you wake up in the morning, you eat Cheerios and you get like Ahh and then like 10 minutes later, you're starving. Your kids have ADD and they're bouncing off the walls, cause it's carbs. You just keep putting more carbs in, your body gets more hungry. That's how that world works.” I was like, “Okay, cool.” He's like, “Proteins are kind of like getting a log and you throw a log on the fire and it'll burn a little bit longer, but same thing. It burns up and then it eventually goes away.” He's like, “Fats are like coal. It's like throwing coal on. It's harder to get the fats to catch on fire, but once they're on fire, they burn warm and hard and dark. That's the best energy source, cause as soon as they're lit up, they'll burn all through the night.” He said, “That's like eating fat. If you can transition your body from needing carbs and proteins, to processing fat, then you've got this amazing thing where you lose weight, you feel more energy and everything.” I was like, “Oh, so that's why you're dipping your chicken in butter. I get it.” It made sense to me, right? [inaudible 00:14:48] this pitch, I just wrote a little, it's a three minute explainer video, about a dude and a campfire. I tell my epiphany and why it's important to be in ketosis and how this product puts you in ketosis instantly and that was the pitch. Three minute video, took the company from zero to a hundred million dollars in 18 months. It's because I figured that out, cause that speaks to everyone. I'm not dropping techno babble and all this other stuff. Does that make sense? The biggest thing that I think I can share with all you guys, is this. Is figuring out how to get out of this state, cause this is where all you guys are stuck at. I've heard you guys talking about your business and you're always throwing techno babble, assuming that any of us have any idea what you're talking about and most of the times, I have no idea what any of you guys are talking about. It's because this is so second nature, so you're super power, this is what you're good at and you understand. This is where you lead from. If you get rid of that and figure out this piece, this is the key. I'm going to share some other things, because I have so much respect for what Craig does. I don't think anyone's ever studied him. It's probably creepy for him to know how much I watch  what he does, cause I have so much respect. What he does is like a sniper rifle, right? He spends so much time to craft his message, he's just flawless. When he gets it right, it's like a sniper rifle and blows up a company. I'm not nearly as skilled as him. What I've become a master at is this process, at telling these stories. I watch good copy like his, so I can get good at incorporating it in to my speech patterns. I think I'm kind of like a blend between these two. I'm kind of in the middle there, and I'm doing a lot of stuff to be able to figure out messaging. I'll kind of show you guys that here in a minute. This is the best copywriting, I think, is mastering this piece. Mastering the telling of stories, because the process that I'm going to show you guys here, you can do a lot of them, every single day you're doing them, and you're finding the ones that work and you're pushing away the ones that don't. You can move through things really, really quick. Okay? Any questions about epiphany bridge? One other thing, I had a big realization the other day, as I was kind of going through this. How many of you guys have ever had something amazing happen to you, and you go to tell your friend, like, “This cool thing happened.” You're telling this whole story and they're like, “Oh.” You're like, “No, no, no, no.” You tell it to them again and they're like, “No, that sounds really cool man.” You're like, “No, dude. God, you had to be there. If you were there, you would have felt what I felt.” How many of you guys have ever done that before? Right? That's the biggest problem we have, is a lot of times when we tell these stories, this is why it's so important to become good at this, is we just, we suck at telling the story and then they don't have the epiphany. My job is not to tell them what epiphany they're supposed to have. My job is to set up an environment and a story that causes them to have this epiphany. When Marcus Lemonis spoke at our last funnel hacking live event, I had a 30 minute window before the event started, where we could sit down and just kind of talk, right? First time I'd ever met him and he gets there and he walks in and he's got this really confused look on his face. He's like, “I thought you guys were a website builder.” I'm like, “Yeah, we are.” He's like, “Why is everyone so crazy outside?” You come to our events, it's more like a Tony Robbins event than anything. People are going nuts and going crazy and I was like, “Well, it's more than that. We're building a culture of people that love what we do [inaudible 00:17:57]” He's like, “What's a funnel?” First thing I do, stupid me, I start trying to explain from here, and he's like, “All right, so why's everyone so excited? I don't get why everyone's excited. You build websites.” I was like, “Ugh.” All of a sudden I was like, “Okay, I've got to tell my story.” I came back and I told him a story, the story that got me excited about funnels, and I explained that story to him and he was like, “Wait. You're telling me that these can work for anyone, right?” I'm like, “Yeah.” He's like, “Well, how would it work for Camping World?” I was like, “Well, this is what I would do.” He's like, “Okay, well how would this work for Sweet Peas?” I'm like, “I would do this.” “How would this work for …” He starts going through his businesses and after three or four of me telling these stories, he stops and he goes, “Man, every business needs a funnel, right?” It's like, “Yeah.” He goes, “I got to get you on the show, okay?” I didn't tell him, “Hey man, Marcus, every business needs a funnel. You should have me on the show.” I took him on a journey, told him a story, then I put it up in the air and let him have the epiphany, right? That's the key. I want them to have the epiphany. I don't want to tell it to them. You get them to that state by telling them about the epiphany you had. A couple things about the story telling process, that I've learned that work so good. How many of you guys have ever seen the movie, the X-men movie, where they were little kids, before they became the big X-men? You guys remember that? I can't remember which one it was. There's this scene when Magneto before he … He was a little kid and they're taking him to a Nazi concentration camp and they start taking him in, he's freaking out and they see the fences start kind of bending and they're like, “There's something with this kid. He's got some magic powers.” They pull him in this room and it's this really tiny room, it's got Magneto sitting here, it's got the head of the Nazi party there and it's got Magneto's mom. She's sitting there crying, standing there. The Nazi guy is telling him to move this coin, there's a coin on the desk and little Magneto's trying to move it and trying to move it and he can't get the power to do it. He's trying and he's trying and he's trying, nothing's moving. Then the Nazi guy gets kind of frustrated and looks over, pulls out a gun, shoots his mom in the head, boom and the mom falls dead on the ground. Then you see this scene that's like so powerful. You see this little kid's face and you see the pain and the agony. You see his whole body convulse down, like “My mom just died.” Then it transforms from this pain, to this anger and then he comes back up with this just pure anger in his eyes and everything. You see him and he shoves the coin across, he starts crushing all the metal , crushing and everything starts falling around him and he just destroys this whole room. That's how he found his power, right? Now, when watching film, you see that, right? Now words were said, but you see all these things that were happening. You see the pain, you see the frustration, you see the anger, you see … Us, as an audience, as we're watching that, we feel it. [inaudible 00:20:31] I was just explaining it, you kind of felt some of that. You felt that stuff, right? That's the magic of film. We don't … Most of us aren't producing films to sell our stuff, and so we have to do that through our words. Imagine if Magneto came and he's like, “Yeah, so when I was a kid, I was in a Nazi concentration camp. They wanted me to move a coin and I couldn't do it, so they killed my mom. I was pissed, so I blew the whole thing up.” You're like, “All right.” You wouldn't have had the experience, right? Magneto came and he started talking about how he felt. When I'm telling my stories, I go in to how I feel. I talk about, “Man, I was sitting there, I was so freaked out because my bills were due and I had this stuff and I had this pain in my stomach and it was almost like a heart attack, but it was lower, and I felt this pressure coming down and I literally felt like someone was sitting on my back. Everything was coming down on my. I looked down at hands and they were sweating, yet I was freezing cold. My whole body was shaking and shivering, because I was in so much pain and frustration, so much fear.” You notice as I'm telling that story, I'm walking you guys through what I'm feeling and you start feeling it your audience starts feeling those things as well, right? My goal, for me telling the story, is I have to get you in the exact same state that I was in when I had the epiphany, or else you will not have that epiphany. If you look at a good author, I mean you'll read books where an author will come in to the room and they'll spend 30 pages explaining the room and the lights and the look and the feel and everything, to set up a scene. Deliver some line, cause they need you to feel that line, but you won't feel it if they haven't set it up correctly. If I want you to have this epiphany, I have to get you in the exact same state that I was in when I had it. Okay? Tony Robbins 101, stay in control. I have to control their state and I do that by telling the story in a way to get you to feel what I felt, so that when I explain how I had my epiphany, you have the exact same epiphany. Does that make sense? Is that the coolest thing? I realized that, I was just like, “This is like a whole nother level.” It's so easy when you start understanding, this is how the pieces work and how they all kind of flow together. Any questions about that at all? All right, so if you flip over to the next page. In my inner circle group, people always ask me, “Okay, I got that [inaudible 00:22:44]. What's the process now?” I'm a big … What I do a lot of times, I go through and I look at patterns. I go through and dissect like a hundred sales videos like, “What's the pattern?” Then I like sketching out patterns, based on that, so I can replicate it over and over again. I started going through all the stories I tell and I was looking at commonalities. Also, we had an event where we hired … Any of you guys know Michael Hauge? Michael Hauge, I write his name down, Michael Hauge, H-A-U-G-E? There's an audio with him and, I think, Chris Volgler, on Itunes. It's like a six hour story telling workshop they gave. It's like the best thing in the world. Michael Hauge is, he works in Hollywood and he … We had him come to one of our events and he was showing everybody, he was like, “Look at any movie that's ever been successful from the beginning of time, like Batman, Spider man, Titanic, anything. They all follow the exact same script.” He's like, “If you look at the screenplay that you get,” He's like, “On page number three is when the hero does this. On page 13, they always do this. On page 26 … Every movie, it's exactly the same.” He came and talked, but if you listen to that class, it's a college class he's teaching on story telling. It's insane. In fact, have you guys ever seen the movie Hitch? When Will Smith wrote that movie, it was before him and Michael Hauge were like best friends. Will Smith said, “I was studying Michael Hauge's stuff and I was writing Hitch, 100% trying to follow the keys that Michael Hauge taught.” Then when it was done, he met Michael Hauge and they became best friends, like super good friends. Now Will Smith, all these guys, Michael's the dude they go to help map out the screenplay. Super fascinating stuff. This became, as I started looking at it, the outlines for most of my stories, but also the outlines, very similar to what they teach in Hollywood. It's kind of interesting, if you go in to it. If you're looking at how I typically teach things, or how I tell my stories, they all start with the backstory. The big reason why is because it's this, right? Coming back to here, people see you over here as this guru on the mountain, if you start your presentation from there. They have no faith r trust or hope in you, right? It's like, “Ugh. That's Dean. He can get there, but I can't.” You've got to come down the mountain, come back to where they're at and be like, “Hey man, this is where you're at. I was here too. Come on, let's go on a journey. I'm going to take you where we're going.” You start with the backstory. The backstory usually leads you to some kind of wall, which typically is the same wall that your audience is in right now, that's listening to you. Then the first thing you talk about is the external struggle, cause this is what your audience is willing to admit. “Yeah, I needed more money,” or “Yeah, I needed to get in shape.” You talk about, that's the first struggle. Then the second thing's, you've got to get to the internal struggle, cause this is the only thing that actually matters. This is what Dean was talking about yesterday. Seven why's. This is how I get to my internal struggle. External, I need more money. I ask five or six or seven why's. Why, why, why, why, why? That's the real reason why they care. In your story, you don't talk about … You mention the external, cause that's where they're at. Then you go in to the internal. You talk about the internal thing that you were struggling with, cause that's where it gets them. You're controlling state, right? That's where you get in to the same state you were in, cause you're actually talking to them on a level that they don't ever share. When you're willing and able to share that, then it causes the empathy you need. From there something happens, you had this epiphany. “Whoa, check out how cool this thing was.” Then, after the epiphany, you're like, “Here's the plan, what I'm going to do.” After you have the plan, usually you still freak out like, “Ugh, is it going to work? What if it fails?” We talk about the painted picture of failure. Then we have the call to action, and then, at the end of it, we have the result. This is kind of an example. I have this on my desk, when I'm doing videos, doing stuff, I just look at this all the time. I make sure I don't miss pieces of it. I probably tell, I don't know, 40 or 50 stories a day. If you look at how much we're publishing stuff, I'm just telling stories all day long, and I want to make sure that I'm following a process. This is there, and this little thing will help, these questions will help walk you through what's your back story and what did you want? There's a problem you encounter, how'd you make it feel? What was the external struggle? What was the internal struggle? What was the epiphany you had? What plan did you come up with after the epiphany? What would happen if you failed? How'd you take action? What was the end experience? Some epiphany bridge stories I tell are a minute to two minutes. Some of them are 30 to 40 minutes. I tell a lot of them. Every one of my presentations … One of the presentations I did, one of the guys on my team was counting things and in a 56 minute presentation, I told like 30 something stories. I'm telling them a lot, consistently, over. If you guys ever watch  my stuff, I can tell story after story after story after story, because that's what gets people here. If you notice, any time I get to something where I come to some kind of technical thing, like when I did the pitch for this. I had to explain ketones, causes there's a word called ketones. Ketones is techno babble, right? As soon as I get to the word ketone, I say, “Ketone.” Then I stop and I say, “Ketones kind of like,” I step back, “It's kind of like a million motivational speakers, running through your body.” Like, “Oh, cool.” Now they've got what ketones are and I keep moving on. Any time I introduce any kind of techno babble, I stop instantly, take a step back, I tell a really quick story to make it so that that word means something to them, and then I can keep moving on. Anyway, I'm doing that over and over. Does that help for like a tool for you guys, how to … People always say “How do you do your sales videos now?” It's Really this. These are how, mostly everything we create is from that.