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Sexting - what is it? How do you do it? Why would you want to do it? And...most importantly...how do you ensure it goes well - and how do you keep it from going horribly wrong? Whether you have been with your partner for a long time - or are just getting to know someone - sexting can be a fun way to connect and expand the range of your intimacy with another person. There's a lot of serious stuff going on in the world right now, so I thought we'd take a moment on the show to dive into something playful. Sexy texting (or messaging) can be a new (or improved) relationship-building skill for you to experiment with. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: I want to know you better! Take the quick, anonymous, Relationship Alive survey FREE Guide to Neil’s Top 3 Relationship Communication Secrets Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner’s Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) Support the podcast (or text “SUPPORT” to 33444) Amazing intro and outro music provided courtesy of The Railsplitters Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. There is a lot going on in our world right now. A lot. And as much as I personally would like to fix everything overnight, that's not going to happen. And so I'm doing my best, as always, to mix things up because this topic of how to do relationships well, how to find relationships, how to stay in relationships, how to leave relationships, sometimes, let's be honest, it can be kind of heavy, or if not heavy, at least serious. Today, I want to take a step towards a topic that's actually quite useful, quite important, and also on the lighter side of things. I want to talk about sexting. Neil Sattin: I want to talk about sexting in terms of how to sext, how to sext well, what not to do, what to do, why you might want to do it. And we'll talk about sexting also from the perspective of where you might be on the spectrum of how well you know your partner. So we'll talk about what it's like to use sexting as a tool for connection and fostering desire in your main relationship, if you have a primary partnership. And then we'll contrast that with what it's like to do that with someone that you've never met, or maybe you've had some Tinder interaction or online dating interaction. I don't want to necessarily promote just one thing. Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, OkCupid, Plenty Of Fish, whatever the hell it is. Neil Sattin: Whatever it is, if you're meeting people there and if you are being responsible about whether or not you are keeping a distance from them, right now we're in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, then you might consider sexting as a way to boost your intimacy and to have a little fun with someone that you're meeting. But it's very different when you sext with someone that you don't know in person or whom you barely know, especially if you don't actually have a sexual history with that person. We're going to get into the ins and outs of sexting, and hopefully have some fun while we do it. Because I think when done right, sexting can be pretty amazing. And if you don't know what I'm talking about when I say the word sexting, I'm talking about communicating via instant message or texting about sexual things. And not just about sexual things, but actually taking your partner and yourself on a sexual journey, on a fun journey, on a connecting journey, on an intimate journey, it can be intimate, and all over some texting or instant messaging medium. Neil Sattin: So that is what sexting is, at least the way that I'm defining it right now. And before we dive in, I just want to remind you that Relationship Alive is an offering for you so that you can have the best relationships possible. And I can't do it alone. In fact, I really can't do it alone. Over the coming weeks and months, I'm going to be probably putting out a call for some assistance. Because for a long time, this has been pretty much a solo show, although I have had amazing help from my editor, Christy, and some various assistants along the way. It's time to really have a team who's helping carry on the mission. Neil Sattin: Right now, one of the most important people on the team is you being there - listening, putting this stuff into practice, talking to people about Relationship Alive, turning other people on to the show and, if you are able, supporting us through a contribution. You can choose any amount that feels right to you, because every little bit counts. If you're finding the show to be helpful, just visit neilsattin.com/support or text the word "support" to the number 33444 and follow the instructions. This week, the team members I would like to thank are Joseph, Ruthanna, Holly, Mark, Ruth, Jenny, Marie, Timothy, David, Angie, Sylvia, Drew, Lydia, Ann and Valerie. Thank you all so much for your generous and, in many cases, ongoing support of the Relationship Alive podcast. Neil Sattin: Oh, and I don't want to forget that it's been a little bit, Mark, since your donation came through, but I wanted to mention that Mark's donation was made in honor of Annie. You can do that, too, when you contribute to the show. Just tell me who you'd like to thank, who's important or special in your life, who has been, is currently or will be, and I'm happy to thank them as well here on Relationship Alive. Neil Sattin: Before we get into the topic, just a reminder that we do have a free group on Facebook, if you're still on Facebook, I'm not sure honestly how much longer I'm going to be there. But if you are there, we have a Relationship Alive community where we have more than 4,000 people who are listeners of the show gathered to create a safe space to talk about relationship stuff. So, come join us there. It is a closed group, so the only people who see what you post are the people who are in the group. Generally, it's a really supportive community. And the times occasionally when people need a redo, they're generally pretty good about asking for that and giving positive, supportive, constructive feedback so that you can work on your skills at supporting other people as well. So that's the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook. Neil Sattin: If you have a question for me on the show, just email it to questions at relationshipalive dot com. You can record yourself asking the question or you can just email the question to me. I was thinking the other day about how it might be fun to actually have people interview me for the show, so that's something I'd consider, too. If you want to interview me around a particular topic for Relationship Alive, let's do that experiment. That will be fun. Just again, questions at relationshipalive dot com. Neil Sattin: And lastly, if you are looking for ways to improve your communication, we're going to be talking about one particular aspect of communication today. But in general, if you are looking for ways to communicate about things that are intimate or challenging and to stay connected to your partner while you do, then please download my free guide to my top three relationship communication secrets. These are special strategies for communicating in relationship that are a little different than your conventional wisdom around how to communicate well. And by putting them into practice, you can stay connected no matter how challenging the topic that you are talking about. You have a pretty good chance anyway. Nothing is 100% certain, right? You never know. You can do your best, and the other person might not be their best, or they might still be doing their best and it might still go poorly. But to get a really good chance of it going well, start with my free communication guide. To get that, just visit neilsattin.com/relate or text the word "relate" to the number 33444 and follow the instructions. Neil Sattin: Let's get on with the show and talk about sexting. Sexting, when it's done right, it can be super hot, super fun and super connecting. And when it's done not so right, then it can be really horrible and go poorly and really be disconnecting or alienating even. So, let's talk about sexting and some of the principles, 'cause I'm not going to... The way that it unfolds, and the way that it needs to unfold for you or for the person with whom you are sexting, that's going to be different based on every person. In fact, one of the things that I love most about sexting is that when it's done well, it's generally because it's following the rules of good improvisation. Neil Sattin: Now, we've had a couple episodes on the show where we've talked about improvisation and how to do that well, and so I want to give you those episode numbers so that you can listen to them at your leisure. The first is episode number 17, which was called "Stop Worrying, Start Playing", and that was with Patti Stiles who's one of the world's foremost improv teachers. She's based out of Australia. And that was a super fun conversation. And then we had another conversation later with Cathy Salit, that was episode number 78: "How to Have More Fun in Your Relationship." Neil Sattin: If you're not sure how to locate episodes based on number, you can scroll through your podcast app that you use, if you're using a smartphone or something like that. Or you can just go to neilsattin.com, which is the Relationship Alive website, and there's a little search magnifying glass up at the top, and you can just go - in that magnifying glass, you can type in the episode number, and it will pull up the episode for you. I'm going to do that right now just to prove that it works. I just typed in "78" and it brought up episode 178, episode 78, and then some random episodes, so I don't know what to tell you there, but it started with the right episodes. Neil Sattin: Okay, great. Good sexting follows the rules of good improvisation. And basically what that means is first creating space for the other person to respond to you. Second, to be really paying close attention to how they are responding to you and looking for ways to amplify what they do or say or add to it. And there's some responsibility that we have as communicators in general, to be listening well, to be responding to what is actually being offered rather than off on our own tangent. And also, there's a responsibility for us to participate, like in good faith. Neil Sattin: One of the first things about sexting that is important to establish with a person is whether or not they want to sext. Now, some people just don't. For some people, that can be a super edgy thing or it can bring up bad memories about some bad experience, so it's not like everyone necessarily right off the bat wants to be a sexting partner. It might be helpful to have a conversation. Again, download that free relationship communication guide. It might be good to have a conversation about sexting so that you know where the person who you're talking to stands, whether that person is your close intimate partner that you've been with for 10 or 20 years, or whether that person is someone who's totally new to you. Questions you might ask are things like, "Can we talk about a topic that might be a little edgy or a little risky?" Neil Sattin: Hopefully they'll say yes, and then you might say, "I've been wondering if we can talk about sexting and what that would be like." Or, "I'm curious to know if you would ever be interested in having sexy texting time with me." There are a couple ways. Now, you can think of something that feels good for you or that feels right, or that feels right with knowing your partner. But I think it's helpful to, one, get their agreement to even have a conversation with you about something edgy so they know what's coming. And then the second thing is to make it explicit that what you're talking about is being explicit to some degree via texting. Neil Sattin: Now, as you talk about it, if you have a conversation about it, then you'll be able to gauge how well you or your partner... How much you actually want to get explicit. And there are ways to sext that actually don't involve a single naughty word. Sometimes using the naughty words can be fun, other times you don't have to go there. And there's an important reason for that that I will tell you about in just a minute. But it's good to get a sense of whether or not someone is into that. One way is the direct way, which I just gave you. Now, a second way to explore whether or not someone might be into that would be to actually start something with them, to start a chain of potential sexting. But you gotta start off really lightly. It could be something like, "What are you wearing right now?" Something like that, especially once you have the precedent with someone of doing this sort of thing, then it might be very easy for you to just say something like that, and suddenly there you are getting each other in the mood. Neil Sattin: But if you're not sure about another person and their willingness, and you're not sure you even want to ask them directly for whatever reason - although I gotta say, being direct is far and above the best way to go about it - then you can do a little foray into something that leaves the door open for things to be sexy, but isn't next necessarily sexy in and of itself. And I'll give you an example of that in just a moment. Neil Sattin: Actually, I'll give that example to you now 'cause I wasn't even sure - I've had something I was going to say, but now I'm going to give you the example. So something like that might be... Oh, I remember what I was going to say. I'll say it next. You might text something like, "I was thinking of you a moment ago... " and that's it. Now, remember the whole idea of sexy texting is that you are in a conversation with the other person. So if I text you something like, "I was thinking about you just a moment ago, and I was imagining your beautiful eyes and your curves, and I was thinking about un-zipping your dress." If you just go off like that, you don't know what's going on with the other person. They might be in the middle of a business meeting, or they might be changing a child's diaper, who the hell knows. It could be something that is absolutely not sexy, and it might not be the right time for them. Neil Sattin: So if you just kind of launch off onto your sexy talk at the wrong time, then it could be funny, and it could very well have the opposite effect of what you would be intending, which would I hope be to have a hot, fun connecting time with this other person. So you want to engage them. Something simple, "I was just thinking of you... " and then you wait. And sometimes, as one of my favorite musicians, Tom Petty, used to say, "The waiting is the hardest part." But you gotta be patient because what comes after a text like that is so important. You might get a response like, "Oh, yeah?" with a question mark, which is an invitation for you to say something more. Or you might just get a, "Oh, that's cool. What were you thinking about?" Or you might get a, "Awesome, babe, see you later," or you might get a non-response that shows you that the other person isn't really there, or they're not really ready to play with you. Neil Sattin: And then a response like, "Oh, yeah?" that could be an invitation, that could be a, "Hmm, what's going to happen here, I might be willing to play." Or it might just be, "I'm curious, you were thinking about me, how come?" Even then, you don't want to launch right into something. In fact, you don't ever want to launch right into something, and here is why, because the most important thing that happens in sexting, and this actually might be true in any form of communication. I should really think this through, but definitely in sexting the most important thing is not what you say. The important thing is what is happening in your imagination or in your partner's imagination. This is truly one of those times where saying less could be more, because really what you're both trying to do is to go on a journey together, a journey of fantasy together. Neil Sattin: Now, this is why sexting can sometimes be problematic when you don't really know the person, you don't know them, you haven't spent any time with them in person, you've just had some communication with them online or maybe a phone call or something like that, but you've never actually been with them, and you've never even been with them sexually like... So we'll talk for a minute about the risk of that. But right now, just know that so much of what you are trying to do is you're trying to create this shared story that's going to unfold under your fingertips and in between your ears, in other words, in your mind and in your body, because when you're sexting, you're going to be able to have a very visceral experience that incorporates most, if not all of your senses, and your own erotic energy. Neil Sattin: So that is the important part of sexting. Knowing exactly the right thing to say or the perfect combination of words, trust me, that is not as important as saying things that inspire the other person to get into their bodies, to get into their experience, and to get into their imagination about what might be happening. For instance, if you text, "I was just thinking of you... " and the other person responds, "Oh, yeah?" Then you might say, "Yeah, I was thinking about your big broad shoulders," or "I was thinking about your deep blue eyes." Or if it's someone that you don't even know, like an online dating person, you might refer to a conversation that you've had, "Yeah, I was thinking about when you were talking about blah, blah," whatever it is, "and how that made me feel inside." Or you could refer to something, "I'm thinking about you in that red dress or you in that suit, and the way it makes me feel inside." Neil Sattin: Now, that's a pretty edgy thing, especially if you add the, "and the way it makes me feel inside part," 'cause you're basically putting it out there like, "There's something going on, I'm thinking about you." And let's face it, any improv is a risk, and definitely sexting when you don't know if the other person is quite ready for it, or willing or wanting, it's a risk to put yourself out there. So you gotta be willing to be courageous. When you say something like that, now the door is open, and now you wait again to see how the other person is going to respond. If they start asking you questions about how you feel - where they are really with you and they're really curious - then I think most likely the game is on. If they don't respond or if they respond in a business-like manner, or if they respond in a way that leaves you really questioning over and over again, whether they're there with you, then they're probably not there with you, 'cause most people, when they're ready for something like that, it's only going to take a little bit of back and forth before it's super clear what's happening. You gotta take my word for that. Neil Sattin: And the thing is, you don't want to force anyone into it. There's nothing quite as unsexy as trying to continually get someone into this sexy journey with you when they're not interested, so pay attention to what you're receiving, and wait and see how the other person responds. They may respond with something really forward and even graphic. If you said, "I was thinking about you with your big broad shoulders," they might say something like, "Oh, and that makes me think about wrapping my arms around you and pulling you close." Well, if someone responds that way, game on. If they say something like, "Yeah, I used to... They came in really good in rugby," then you really don't know where the person's at. They could be joking with you. They could be just being playful, or they could be not interested. And so you're going to have to take the conversation a little bit further to find out. Neil Sattin: So if someone says, "Yeah, those shoulders came in really handy when I was playing rugby." Then you might say something like, "Tell me a little bit more about what the scrum is like...?" Isn't that what it's called in rugby the scrum? I don't know. I never played rugby, but... "Tell me more about what that's like being all huddled together." You're staying with what they offer you, which in improv is known as "yes...and". You're taking what someone gives you, and you're saying, "And something else" that goes along with what they gave you. So if someone talks about rugby, you don't want to say like, "Well, I hate rugby," or you don't want to say, "Well, let's get off the rugby field and into the bedroom." There might be a time to say something like that, when it's clear that the person is talking about more than rugby. If all they really want to tell you about is rugby, then it might be a little out of place to invite them into your imaginary bedroom. So you're going to have to take the conversation, the play, the improvisation a little bit further to see where they go. Neil Sattin: The reason that this can be challenging when you don't know someone very well - and maybe you've had this experience in the past, I've had this experience before - where because so much of sexting and really any sort of written correspondence... This is one of the most challenging things about online dating is, so much of the interactions that happen are through the written word. We are different people when we're writing versus when we're talking, versus when we are seeing another person versus when we are right there in the flesh with another person. Those are all different modes of communication, and the way that we represent ourselves isn't always the same. Partly that's because the more removed you are from the direct experience of a person, the more you are creating that experience in your mind of the person. Neil Sattin: So perhaps you've had that experience of having a written correspondence with someone that feels passionate and playful, and light, and sexy and engaging, and then you meet them in person and there's just no chemistry, or there's none of that fire, that playfulness or no attraction, or no interest, or no engagement, or whatever it is. Or it's just like awkward and shy and weird, and we will talk in a moment about what to do when that happens. But just recognize that the risk here, when you are sexting with someone that you don't actually know, is that you are going to be creating this whole fantasy world that might not fully be in alignment with what your experiences of that person in real life, real time, and that's challenging. Especially if you've spent days and days and days, maybe even longer, having more of a virtual relationship with a person. If you find yourself there in person and it's just not clicking, well, that can be a real downer. Neil Sattin: In fact, maybe some relationships are just meant to be virtual. They can be fun and perfect just like that, and don't ever have to be more. That could be true. However, I think that it's more common that people will have this amazing virtual experience in real life, it won't go so well, and then the after-virtual experience just never is quite the same, 'cause so much is in the anticipation, so much is in the story that you have told yourself about the other person, about what they are like, what they look like, how they are as lovers. So, yeah, it can be challenging, whereas if you have experience with someone as an intimate partner, then you have some of that experience to draw on in terms of the picture that you paint for each other of what's happening. And also, the experience that you're creating for yourself in your head as you go through it is going to be aligned with what you naturally create with your partner in real life. Neil Sattin: Now, sometimes you can just get a little bit into the sexting with someone that you are with in real life as a way of simply stoking the fire of something that could happen in person later. So all of that, "I was thinking of you... Blah, blah, blah." That can become, "I can't wait to see you tonight," or "Let's make sure we get the kids to bed early," or "I'm grabbing takeout so that we don't have to worry about cooking dinner," whatever it is. And in days like we have now, where you might both be sheltering-in-place in your house, even texting to each other under those circumstances can be fun because again, it is a different mode of communication, and because it allows you to take advantage of the fact that it activates your imagination and your partner's imagination. Neil Sattin: And sometimes that's one of the hardest things about getting out of the routine and into something that's a little bit more intimate or erotic, it's because we're just... We're in the flow of something that's purely domestic, and it can be hard to change gears. So sending a little text, even when you're in the same house as someone can be a way to tap into a different part of them and their experience, and to change up the conversation and the vibe a little bit. That is if someone is willing to do this with you. I'm a big fan. I think it really activates a lot of our imagination and our eroticism, and there are things that we can text to each other that we might not ever say to each other. Sometimes that comes through in a negative way. I don't know if you've ever gotten a text from someone where you're like, "This person would never say that to me in person, but here they are texting it to me." But here it works to your advantage in a positive way where you can say things that you would never say. Neil Sattin: And if it doesn't go so well, whatever it is you say, then you can always kinda laugh it off. So getting back to the whole process of getting started on a sexting-capade, if it's clear that the other person isn't going there with you, then the best thing to do is to just kind of blow it off with a little joke, and that could be like where you just let it go, and that's fine. Or you could be like, "Sounds like you're really busy right now." And if they say, "Yes," then you might be like, "Okay, well, I'm going to leave you alone 'cause clearly my mind was elsewhere." So you're naming it for the other person, which I think is actually a huge mark of integrity where you're not leaving them guessing, "What was that all about? Were they trying to sext with me? What was going on with them?" So you can actually say, "Hey, yeah, my mind was elsewhere, and yours isn't, and that's totally fine. That's totally okay." Yeah, you definitely want to let the other person off the hook so that they don't feel bad about it, because you don't want to create any pressure around this at all, really around anything sexual, if you can avoid it. Neil Sattin: So, if someone is a no, then that's okay, you can be like, "Alright, no worries. I was glad to... It's good to talk to you. It's good to text with you a little bit. I just wanted to check in more than anything." And if someone is reaching out to you in that way and you want to let them down gently...If you barely know the person, and it's actually offensive, then you might not want to be so gentle. You might be like, "Wow, you're really going for it, aren't you? I'm not sure I'm ready for that kind of conversation between us," simple as that. Or if you are more intimate with the other person or you know them well, then you might be like, "I would so want to go there with you, but right now really is not the time for me. I'm so sorry, and I really appreciate that you were willing to put yourself out there like that." Neil Sattin: So you probably heard a lot in there. There is me taking responsibility for myself. There's me naming what I think is going on with the other person. There's me appreciating them. There's me even apologizing, "No big deal. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I can't do this with you right now, but I would love to later. Thanks for bringing it up. Can I have a rain check on this conversation?" There are all sorts of ways where you can let someone down gently and still honor that they were being courageous and taking a risk. This is part of the dual responsibility in relationships. There're any number of ways that this can be illustrated, but here's one clear way where we are taking responsibility for just recognizing, "Oh, you were taking a risk, and I honor that in you," or "I'm taking a risk, and I just wanted you to know that. I'm naming that. Neil Sattin: And these are great opportunities both for shared vulnerability in relationship, but also sharing responsibility for the moment, really owning your part in any moment that's happening goes such a long way to increasing the generosity that you both experience, because when you're taking responsibility for yourself fully, then I won't end up feeling taken for granted, because I know that you've got you and that you recognize how much work I'm putting in, how much effort, how many risks I'm taking. It's so important, 'cause in the end, it's that spirit of generosity and reciprocity that makes for good sexting. It makes for a good relationship-ing. It makes for good everything. Neil Sattin: Now, I need to take a quick break before we dive into a little bit more of where you go, once the sexting starts happening, where you go with that. I want to tell you more about that, but before I do, I just need to mention this week's sponsor. Now, I'm not sure that they can offer you much to help you with your sexting technique. But if you are nervous about sexting or in general, you need some extra support around the things that are getting in the way of your happiness or achieving your goals, then this sponsor offers a great way that you can do that from the comfort of your own home, or from your office, or from your car, anywhere really, and their name is BetterHelp. Neil Sattin: BetterHelp will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist. You can chat via text with your counselor at any time, and you can schedule weekly video or phone sessions all without having to go anywhere. It's more affordable than traditional offline counseling, and they do offer a financial aid if you qualify. They also offer a broad range of expertise so that you can find the person most suited to helping you with your own unique situation. So whether it's needing to muster up some courage, or dealing with depression or stress, or anxiety, trauma, whatever is up for you, try out BetterHelp to help you move past the places where you're getting stuck. Neil Sattin: So to start living a happier life today, you can try BetterHelp. And for being a Relationship Alive listener, you can get an extra 10% off your first month. Just visit betterhelp.com/alive, and join over 800,000 people taking charge of their mental health. Again, that's betterhelp.com/alive. And, thank you so much BetterHelp for your support of our mission here at Relationship Alive. Neil Sattin: Now, let's get into the nitty-gritty of what to do when you're in the middle, when sexting is on, when it's happening. What do you do? How do you make it sexy and keep it sexy? Now, I'm going to just give you my thoughts on this, and my experience. So, this might be different for you, and I'll do my best to cover a few different scenarios so that you might find yourself fitting into some way of doing this that I describe. Amusingly, I just glanced at the clock and I realize that I've been talking for almost 40 minutes about sexting, and who knew I had so much to say about sexting? But there's actually quite a bit to say. And, as you can tell, it branches off into so many other aspects of relationship that are so important. I love that about this topic. Every piece of it is a fractal that opens to a whole different world that's related but different. Neil Sattin: So, what do you do? Let's go back to those conversations about sexting that we talked about at the very top of the episode. What you might want to get clear on is, what kind of language is a turn on for your partner and for yourself, and what kind of language isn't. Now we may have to get a little explicit here. If your children are for some reason listening to this episode, this would be a good time to hit pause and to resume later. I'm assuming you did that. Some people want just delicate language about sex. They don't even want genitals named. Neil Sattin: In fact, even the word genital, if you're one of those people, it probably just turned you way off right now, they probably just want to talk about things that are a little bit more metaphorical. I'm thinking of, for some reason, a good romance novel like, "That's making me feel warm between my legs," or, "Oh, I'm getting really excited, or, "I'm feeling all this energy in my body." Or even just saying that you're getting turned on in a gentle way. Saying turned on is a little bit more gentle. "Oh, I'm feeling so turned on right now." It's a lot different than like, "Man, I want to fuck your brains out right now." Totally different. Neil Sattin: They're essentially saying the same thing, but they're saying the same thing in a very different way. And you want to get a sense of what works for you so that you can communicate that to your partner. And you want to get a sense of what works for them, so that you can communicate to them using the language that is going to be most powerful and evocative for them. So you might talk about things like, "Well, what words do you like to use for your various body parts? What words are turn on to you? What words are turn off to you?" Those are really important things to know because when you are texting, you are in the realm of words. Neil Sattin: You're in the realm of the words that you say, and then you're in the realm of the thoughts that those words get you to think, or get your partner to think. If you're able to have a conversation about it, or if you get a sense of where they land, or just from how you've known them to be, you could be wrong. You could think that someone is super innocent and vanilla, and find out that they really love to talk really dirty, and say really dirty things. That could be true, and you will find out as you try this out, because usually if that is true for them, and they're feeling safe with you, then they'll start by taking a risk with words like that. Neil Sattin: When your partner offers something like that, then you get to be a "Yes, and" to it. The "and" can be steering it in a new direction. The "and" can be just going with it, even if you might not necessarily use that word, but you know that they like to use that word. It could be like, "Wow, you just said that, didn't you?" Where you're actually calling attention to what you're doing in the moment, which can be fun too. It can keep things playful. If you say to someone like, "Oh, I just want you to put your cock in me." A totally legitimate sexting response to that might be like, "Wow, you just went there, didn't you?" Now, you might want to use an emoji there, like a smiley face or a winky face or something like that, just to show that you're not being mean, that you're being playful. The goal here is to be playful and fun, and to also pay attention to what you are saying and what is being said to you, how that makes you feel in your body. Neil Sattin: Now, I'm just going to say it right now that when you are sexting, you have license to touch yourself. Now, if you're at the office, you may need to exercise some discretion about that. Depending on the circumstances, you may just have to be totally in your imagination. But if you have a little bit of privacy, then I give you permission hereby to touch the parts of your body that feel good, to even take a break for a minute from whatever conversation you're having, and just to go into your fantasy about what is happening, and to explore that for yourself, to explore the way it makes you feel, to touch yourself in ways that feel really good, to build the pleasure in you, and to build your story about what's happening and what's unfolding in your imagination, in your experience. And then once you've done that, you can transmit that to your partner. Neil Sattin: It's funny, some of the most hot sexting experiences that I've had that have lasted even the longest, and I've had some that I've gone pretty long - and some can be super short. But it's funny, I'll look back at them and realize that we actually didn't say a whole lot. It's like the art in sexting isn't about how much you say or how graphic you get. It's saying just the right things that evoke the pictures, the experiences for your partner, and then creating the space for them to have that experience and to appreciate it in them. Neil Sattin: A moment ago, when I was talking about those meta moments where you might say like, "Wow, you just went there, didn't you?" I think it is really helpful to the experience to name things like, "Wow, I am so turned on right now," or "I wish you were right here next to me right now," or "Oh my God, I can't wait until you're next to me." Or if you know how it feels to be actually being sexual with the other person, you might say, "Oh, I know exactly what that's like. It feels so good." You're, of course, saying all that with your words. Neil Sattin: Now, as you sext, I think it's a good to note on the punctuation, as silly as that sounds. I think it's really helpful to use dots like dot dot dot, and question marks, and to use those as ways of reminding the other person that you're waiting for them. Again, you don't want to just sext AT your partner unless they've asked you to do that. I could see that happening. "Just send me sexy texts. I'm not going to be able to text back to you because I'm in the middle of making dinner for the kids, but just keep sexting me up, 'cause every time I read those, I get totally turned on." So there's a case where you've been given permission to just monologue your sexting. Neil Sattin: But for the most part, you want to constantly be creating space, so you want to offer a few things and you might... This is a great way to use pauses in your texting, so you might just text a phrase. And I gave an example of this at the very beginning. So here's another. It might be something like, "Now I trace my fingers" and hit Send. Or actually it would probably be like, "Now I trace my fingers... " Send. "Starting at your collar bone... " Send. "Working my way down... " Send. And then you might ask a question like, "Where do you want me to go?" Or, "How do you like that?" So you offer something and then you ask a question. Neil Sattin: Now, sometimes you're going to just offer something, you don't have to always put a question at the end, you don't want to be formulaic about it. So you might be offering something and then your partner might just start texting you back, and then you're in a back and forth. So there's no hard and fast rules about how to do this, or "I need three phrases with ellipses at the end, and then a question with a question mark at the end." It doesn't work that way. If you're stuck, then sure, use those things as ways to foster your own creativity, or to help remind your partner, "Hey, I'm over here. I'm waiting for you. Are you still there?" And in fact, if you lose your partner to some sexy reverie, then you might even ask them like, "Are you still breathing over there?" Neil Sattin: So you want to be kinda playful about it, but it's a way of reminding them like, "Hey, we're on this journey together. Where'd you go?" In this zone, this is a good time to think about painting a picture of how you want to touch your partner, how you want them to touch you, and describing it in ways that aren't too specific unless specificity is asked for. If you asked me, "Where do you want me to go?" I could respond, "Just keep going down." That's one way, or I could respond like, "I want you to grab my cock." Neil Sattin: There's just any number of ways, or like "I want you to tease me and... " And you could leave it at that, "I just want you to tease me. What do you do next?" And now it's back in your court, so you can be like, "Oh, okay, how am I going to tease Neil?" There's all kinds of possibility there. One of the best things I think, is for you to describe something about what you like or what you want to do, and then to be an invitation to whatever comes next. Now, hopefully, that's becoming clearer. As I'm talking about this, I'm thinking "hmmm...maybe I should make a little how-to guide on sexting?" You'll be the first to know if that happens, but I'm hoping that this is giving you a lot of good pointers. Neil Sattin: As this goes on, with you inviting each other into the dance, talking about what you're really enjoying, what feels good, what you want to do, what you want to be done, giving your partner really appreciative feedback, "Oh, like you said that, that just really... That felt so good." or, "I'm just imagining that and that's so amazing." or whatever it is. So you're giving each other feedback. In many ways, this can be great practice for being in the bedroom and learning how to communicate better as lovers when you're actually in the bedroom with each other because it's required here. Neil Sattin: But at the same time, also allowing each other that space to be in your own experience. And if your partner is not squeamish about this kind of thing, you might even say something like, "I can't help myself. I'm just...I'm touching myself right now." Or, "Are you touching yourself? I am." And if they say, "I am, too," then you might say, "Oh, tell me a little bit about that." 'cause you can be in the fantasy world, and then you can bring people into their own experience, "Tell me about what is happening for you right now. I'm so turned on right now." "Oh, tell me more about that. Tell me more about how you're turned on. What are you thinking about? What's getting you? What's getting you the most turned on right now?" So you can learn about each other, too, by asking questions. You're asking questions, you're staying in the flow, you're ramping things up, you're getting more and more excited, and then there's the question about how you bring things to an end. Neil Sattin: Now, if you only have like 10 or 15 minutes to begin with, then you might say that at the beginning so that you both know that you're operating within certain time constraints. If you don't have time constraints, that's a totally different thing. But if you do, then you might ask each other something really blatant like, "Do you want to come now?" And I'm trying to think of even a less direct way. You've probably got something - if we were here talking about this, and we'd come up with probably a half dozen different ways to ask the same question. Or you might offer it, if you're feeling like you don't want to. For instance, you might be like, "Just so you know, I'm totally good right now. I don't need to come but if you want to, I'm totally here for you. Tell me what you want me to do." So you're showing that you're available and you're taking responsibility for yourself. Or you might be like, "I really, really... I have to go in two minutes but I have to come before I do." Neil Sattin: Now, for me personally... And I've talked about this on the show before. I don't like to have traditional climax orgasms all that often. I like to explore more the energetic spaces that happen, that open up when you stop having peak orgasms, and that's just one type of orgasmic experience. But there are all kinds of different nuances to how you have orgasms, and the kinds of orgasms that your body is capable of in different parts of your body, different ways of experiencing it. There's so much more than the tension, tension, tension, and then release that you can feel from a more physical climax kind of orgasm. Neil Sattin: For me, I am often good - not necessarily ejaculating and having to clean all that up. I'm usually good not doing that. No, that's not always true but often it is. But this is something that's very personal. You might have a little conversation like, "Do you want to? Do you not want to? Do you want to just like... " If you decided you didn't want to, then you might just start transitioning your sexting into something a little bit more sweet and connected like you might have after actually having sex. For instance, you might say something like, "Let's just cuddle up and hold each other. I'll be the big spoon. What do you think about that?" So you're even in your story about what's happening. You're transitioning to a different kind of mood that allows you to just bask in everything that you've stirred up. Or again, you might be like, "This has been so amazing. I can't wait to see you later." or, "I can't wait to see you in person, whenever that happens." Neil Sattin: Now, let's say you decide though, that you've gotten to a point where you both just want to come like crazy. Well, that's something that you can do together, too. And you can play with that like, "You want to? I want to. Alright, let's do it. Don't do it yet. Let's sync up with each other." And so you might have to figure out where you're each at and what each of you needs a little bit more of. So if you're both right there on the edge... Neil Sattin: Now, this is something that is so funny, I think. It's not universally true, but for a lot of people, it can be a lot easier to have an orgasm when you're by yourself than when you're with another person. And so you might find that someone with whom orgasm-ing when you're actually having sex is challenging, that when you're there sexting with each other, that they're right there and ready. Hey, we know our own bodies better than other people know them, and that's why sexting can be so powerful, because so much of what's happening is happening in our own heads. And so we are really in control of how the fantasy is unfolding. We can make it unfold exactly like how we would want it to be in real life. Neil Sattin: But then you can experiment with things like you can switch to recording yourselves, sending little audio recordings to each other. You can have a little countdown and you both are like, "Alright, we're going to count down from five, and when we get to one, we're both going to orgasm." And there are any number of ways that you can do this. But in all of those magical, "We came at the same time and the world exploded into beautiful fireworks of ecstasy" moments. You can do that in your sexting because you have that much more control over what's happening. Neil Sattin: So I invite you to play with what feels right in the moment and to show up for each other. If you do go for the big 01 orgasm, then don't just fall asleep on your partner. Take a few moments afterwards to be, one, "How was that?" Or checking in like, "Oh my God, that felt amazing," or, "That was crazy," or whatever it is. Share with them about your experience and give them space to share about their experience, and then offer each other so much appreciation. "That was amazing. That was so fun. You're so good at that. I loved when you talked about blah, blah. Let's definitely do this again." whatever it is, offering each other lots of appreciation and good feelings so that it becomes something that can become part of your repertoire with how you nurture the erotic energy in your relationship. It can be such a useful tool if you are willing and able to go there with each other. Neil Sattin: And lastly, yeah, you might want to offer some closing moments about how great that is or how you can't wait until you can do that in person, or how now you're going to just imagine curling up with the person, and what that feels like, or what that might feel like, and bringing your sexting to a close in a way that feels right for you. Wow. I'm sure when I go back and listen to this or read the transcript, I will realize that there's more that I could say. Oh, I remember I talked about something earlier on, I do want to cover this before we go. So what do you do if you've been sexting with someone that you don't really know all that well, and then you meet in person and it's awkward, you're not totally feeling it, what do you do? Uh-oh. What a downer. Neil Sattin: Well, it's possible that it's not salvageable. It's possible that that's just the reality. The reality is that in-person interactions are different. And when it comes right down to it, the in-person reality of you and this other person just aren't going to work, and that's okay. You can be thankful for the fun experiences that you had in virtual space with that person and just acknowledge graciously that you're not totally feeling it. So that might be one way. Another way might be to acknowledge, particularly leading up to it, because I imagine that if you're anything like me, that if you have incredible virtual experiences with a person, then you might be a little nervous about meeting them in person. What's this going to be like? Is it going to live up to what the virtual has been like? Etcetera, etcetera. Neil Sattin: By the way, I am a huge fan of actual phone calls or video chatting with someone. That can be a step between texting or messaging and actually meeting someone in person, so that can be a good way to get a sense of how it feels with that person. But let's say, you're nervous about it. Well, one of the best things that you can do is to just voice that for the other person. When you're there with each other, you might name it like, "Wow, I'm noticing that I'm feeling a little nervous and a little awkward." or, "Yeah, it's so weird 'cause we've shared such intimate moments virtually, and I'm realizing here in front of you that I actually don't know you at all in this way." Neil Sattin: So talking about what your present moment experiences... You've probably heard me talk about this before, can be such a great way to connect with another person. If things are a little weird and awkward, if you're able to name it, and you're able to name the experience that you're having of that, that can help put you at ease. It can help with the other person at ease, and it just might get you to a place where you can be exploring connection again. Neil Sattin: Again, that's not always going to work, and there's probably more I could say about that, maybe we'll do a whole segment on online dating and transitioning into real life from the online space. But that's my helpful hint for you right now, is to be able to name it as it's happening. And then another thing you can do is, you can talk about the experiences that you've shared together. So you could talk about, "Wow, when we were sexting two nights ago, that was amazing. That's one of the best sexting experiences I've ever had." You're actually building on experiences that the two of you share. "What was that like for you?" Neil Sattin: Now you're in conversation, you're getting related, you're talking about ways that you've known each other. It could be a huge advantage that you've already opened up that erotic intimate space between the two of you, once you get over whatever awkwardness there might be about suddenly being in person when you haven't been in person before or much. Neil Sattin: Okay. Thank you so much for being with me here today to talk about sexting, a very important topic. And just know that I'm available for practice sessions. No, just kidding. Well... No, I am just kidding. That being said, maybe the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook might be a good place to share some of your experiences around sexting or you can always email me. My email address is neilius at neilsattin dot com. I hope you've had fun day, 'cause this has been a lot of fun to talk about. Neil Sattin: I will be back next week. Am I back next week? Next week might be... No, next week is a week off, so I'll be back the following week. I haven't quite decided yet who you're going to hear from, but we've got a couple great possible episodes on tap for you and more are always coming. Until then, take care, happy sexting, and I'll talk to you soon.

This week, Melissa and Jam question the whole system of food. Or rather, the way we calculate food: calories. What are they? Where'd the come from? How are they calculated? Is it a good system for measuring food? What does it actually measure? Can we calculate calories in food at home? Let's dig in.

Saturday June 13th. 60's & sUnNy. Brisk, used to 80's w 90% humidity.The Preacher Man contemplated doing laundry...pile of whites, light colors, dark colors....which to do first? Duh, aLL laUnDry matters.!!! A life is a life, a load is a load.Not covered, David Dorn shot and killed. An African American retired cop shot by a black looter. Not even a blip on the main stream media's radar that a 77 year old UPSTANDING citizen is dead...!Where'd the coronavirus Go.!!!? It's protesting? or you interpret...demands. ML Elrick...lists.Scooter is a huge advocate for PEACEFUL protest, there is power in numbers. The Preacher Man believes COPS is on the air for a reason...there's no host.!!! Reform police...create a task force. Get the people with boots on the street...desk Sergeant, Civil Rights Leader, Chiefs. Congress doesn't know. To create a bill on speculation is bUlLShIT.!!! Get out of the box...!The Preacher Man says "the only thing permanent on this planet is change."Tucker Carlson (PATRIOT) is spot on.!!! Calling out the lEaDErs of our Great Country.United We Stand, Divided We Fall. Must have leadership. Scooter says "We don't have checks & balances." The Preacher Man says "don't go against your gut instinct." Non sToP pOlitiCal bull*&%!.MI Gov...stay at home...then roams...dOwNtOwn marching.Minneapolis city council Pres, Lisa Bender, defund/dismantle the police?!?! Plan? Or stupid juice?Shots.!!! Jamison Coffee & Captain Morgan...with CartMan.Detroit float down with marijuana. Completely original...u-haul to smuggling operation to submarine to floating bags to processing.October 1st have your real ID. Scooter believes in 4 10's. Makes n saves $. The Preacher Man has rant about sleep deprivation. The Godfather's, "Birth, School, Work, Death".76th anniversary of D-Day...we are Patriot's.!!! We Love This Country.!!! Incredible!Joke of the Week brought to U by Hightower Meats...! (810) 434-6188. Don't Do Dick.Scooter's Deep Dive...Berlin "Sex Dwarf"& "The Metro". Terri Nunn has the vocals!The Preacher Man chokin on a cheese curl drinking a Miller Lite finding "Take My Breath Away"  from "Top Gun", only on tHiS show.!!!The Preacher Man's Deep Dive...Kid Rock, first "Fist Of Rage" second "Dark & Grey" Be safe be wize be sanatized as u get out of your cacoon.         

Celebrities were coming out and making generous donations to the Minnesota Freedom Fund. They wanted to show how woke they were and how down with the cause they could be. It got so much publicity that over $35 million was donated. Tony Katz just has one question. What are they doing with that influx of cash? The money was supposed to be used for bailing out protesters, but only $200,000 has been used for that. Where'd the rest go? 

Celebrities were coming out and making generous donations to the Minnesota Freedom Fund. They wanted to show how woke they were and how down with the cause they could be. It got so much publicity that over $35 million was donated. Tony Katz just has one question. What are they doing with that influx of cash? The money was supposed to be used for bailing out protesters, but only $200,000 has been used for that. Where'd the rest go? 

The Kentucky Distillers’ Association does more for bourbon in the US than just Kentucky alone. Eric Gregory, the President of the KDA, has been on both sides of the government trying to put the interests of the distillers and consumers first. We talk about his experience with government lobbying and how he revived the organization. What is the future of bourbon? Are distribution laws changing, what will happen with tariffs, and how will the Bourbon Trail maintain growth? Show Partners: You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about up and coming writers. Tell us about your background. What was it like at the KDA when you first got this job? What was your first lobbying experience at the KDA? Any good horse racing tips? How do you see bourbon growing? What do you think of the tariffs? Tell us about the lobbying process. How do you keep it bipartisan? When you hear rumblings of new taxes what do you all do? Tell us about the steps you have taken from the promotional side of the Kentucky Bourbon Trail and the Kentucky Bourbon Affair? How many trail visitors did you have the first year? Talk about partnerships. What are some of the weirdest requests you've gotten from people? Are there other states that look to your organization for guidance? What is your position on the secondary market? Why do so many people oppose shipping alcohol? What do you think about bourbon tourism growth in Bardstown vs. Louisville? 0:00 How many visitors Did you have at that time? 0:01 The first year we did the passport in 2007. We had 189 people complete the Kentucky bourbon trail 0:10 and send them a pin. 0:23 Hey, it's Episode 250. Another big number mark and we're glad you're still here with us. And well, it's not much has really been going on because of COVID-19. It's putting a stop on pretty much everything except delivery services. And that's where we start this week's news alcohol delivery app drizzly says it has seen sales explode in the last week of March climbing 537% above the company's expectations. What's more is that 42% of those orders came in from new accounts. The company says that new buyers on the platform have jumped 900% year over year. Same goes for minibar, sales are up 143% new buyer is up 547% and quarters are up 100% with an average order size up 22%. If you haven't had the chance yet, go listen to our podcast back on episode 248 when we had drizzly CEO and founder Corey rellis on the show to talk about his business. A recent study by economics at john Dunham and Associates estimates that America's wine and spirit wholesalers can expect to lose up to $921.4 million in uncollectible or difficult to collect receivables, due to on premise accounts such as restaurants, bars and clubs that have been impacted by the shelter in place environment, and Massachusetts craft distillers are urging their governor to allow permission to deliver spirits. The Massachusetts distillers Alliance asked Massachusetts officials to take steps similar to those made in a handful of other states, such as California, New York. Washington, Kentucky and Virginia to eight independent distillers that are struggling during the current crisis. In a quote by the Alliance's board, they wrote we pay over two and a half times the rate of excise tax per proof gallon paid by brewers. Yet during these challenging times greater latitude is being extended to restaurants, breweries and wineries. While our businesses remain bound by the rules and laws that put us at great financial risk. We have a significant struggle ahead for some good news, and you all are the first to hear it because we are putting on a free online bourbon conference called whiskey from home happening on May 2 2020. Starting at 12 o'clock pm eastern This event will be streamed live through multiple properties with speakers from the entire castle the roundtable but also Peggy knows Stevens. It's bourbon night, the bourbon review, dad's drinking bourbon and more will have live seminars, panels, virtual tastings. The list goes on or incorrect credibly excited to bring more of this great content to you all. And if you can, please share it. Spread the word. Let your bourbon friends know, let your bourbon societies know let your friends that aren't into bourbon and want to get into bourbon know about it and family as well. This is a full five and a half hour jam packed event that will be streamed live, and you will get the chance to network with other people in real time and ask questions through chat. Go to whiskey from home comm and register today for your free ticket. Now for today's podcast, I was super excited to interview our guests. The Kentucky distillers Association does more for bourbon in the US than just Kentucky alone. Eric Gregory, the president of the KDA has been on both sides of the government trying to put the interest of the distillers and the consumers First, we talked about his experience with government lobbying and how it led him to reviving an organization that was struggling. He's maneuvered the KDA into a model that other states can follow. So we discuss what the future of bourbon looks like. Where the laws changing with the regulation of distribution? What's gonna happen with the tariffs and how will the bourbon trail maintain its current pace of growth? All right now Don't forget it. Whiskey from home.com go register now to get your free ticket. I also talked to Joe from barrel bourbon this week and he has a special message he wants me to share that will lift your spirits. You can now buy barrel craft spirits products and have them shipped right to your door. Just visit barrel bourbon.com from the comfort of your home and click Buy now. Alright, here's Fred MiniK with above the char 4:37 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. This week's idea comes from Kyle man or at bourbon numbers on Twitter. He writes nothing better than expanding my whiskey perspective. Are there any up and coming writers in bourbon that deserve the above the char spotlight? Or are there any underrated sites we should add to our family favorites. Thanks. Listen, there's nothing I like more than promoting good writing and a perspective that is different than mine. Listen, I am a big, big fan of the cocktail walk. Now I as you know, I am a big rum head. So I would I would get you to start with the cocktail wonk. That's Matt Patrick. He actually writes for me at bourbon plus, he writes the vintage column and that is a writer, you need to check out he wrote the book, The Tiki minimalist. So that is a great book. He's a great guy. And if you're wanting to learn more about another spirit, rum is the one I would recommend going to of course, I wrote a book called rum curious and Matt edited that for me. So I'm a big fan of Matt and everything that he does for the rum community. After that, I would say if you're not already following him, whiskey jug is a young up and coming writer. He's been at the game for Little bit of Joshua Peters is a. He reminds me a lot of myself about 10 years ago when I was out there kind of investigating and trying to break news in the whiskey circuit. he's a he's a very good, he's a he's a very good no bullshit kind of writer. So I'm a big fan of what Joshua Peters is doing. I think he's got he's got a bright future ahead of him. And I also wanted to ask you to go and check out the classics, the writers who are no longer with us. Gary Reagan wrote the book of bourbon, probably one of the one of my heroes in the, in the bourbon world. He because he kind of came at bourbon in a very similar fashion, as I did, but he was a bit before his time, and he broke into like, he broke away from bourbon a little bit and made his own bitters and kind of got a little bit more into the cocktail movement. And then you have the greatest whiskey writer of all time, in my opinion. Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson, the guy with the glove and the jacket and the weird stuff, I'm talking about Michael Jackson, the beer, the beer critic and whiskey writer. His words just flew off the page. And we're just so beautiful. So check those writers out. I'm a big fan of all of them. And I think they can all add to your perspective. But at the end of the day, it's about whiskey is about an experience for you. While the writers, the bloggers, THE podcasts, were all about bringing the information. We're all about trying to explore this community with you. At the end of the day, it's about you, and what's in your glass what you like, and what conversation Do you like to have around whiskey? So thank you for the question, Kyle man or at bourbon numbers on Twitter. Now that came in on April 4, when I asked people to send me their ideas for above the char. I love getting a good idea. So hit me up on Twitter. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or go to Fred medic comm and send me your idea. But that's this week's above the char until next week. Cheers. 8:15 Welcome back to an episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Fred on the road today down in Frankfort. The you know, it's always funny. There's always a good joke that says How do you pronounce the capital of Kentucky? Is it Louisville or Lewisville? And they're like, Nope, it's Frankfort. 8:30 Yeah. You know, hopefully our guest today is part of a campaign to move it to Louisville, you know, 8:35 oh, well, I mean, they just got this new place that we're sitting and that is true. 8:38 That is true. Well, so this is where at the headquarters of the Kentucky distillers Association. And you know, 15 years ago, these guys could not get a meeting with a lot of the legislators. Now one of the first calls a new governor makes is to the KDA because bourbon is political capital and I believe that the Kentucky distillers association is the most powerful lobby in Kentucky. And that was confirmed to me by the Senate Majority Leader, David Thayer. I asked him, I was like, hey, how powerful is the KDA? They're like, and there's really not anyone more powerful right now. I mean, 9:15 is it basically coming from all the taxes from? Well, like it's fun and back in the mistake, let's take a look at what bourbon has 9:21 done for the state. It's really one of the only good conversations that people can have when they're talking about Kentucky you got the derby but the horse industry has been falling for for a while. I mean, it's that's a signature industry and it's it's been hurting. Yeah, getting the gambling, you know, they're trying to bring it in, but Ryan keeps getting denied. And the coal industry is turned to us. Sadly, I mean, it's not. If you look at Eastern Kentucky, it's hurting. And bourbon is the one thing that's kind of carrying the state forward. And one of the reasons why is because of the man we have sitting here and what the KDA has done for the last 10 years. In 2009 you know, when there was a new sales tax Taxes coming in. They protested. And they poured whiskey on the state capitol steps in the way of their protests. And they've been every single year, they have been peeling away ridiculous laws county by county and in the state and in town by town. And that's why we're able to like have a sip of bourbon while you visit a distillery a mean people don't realize that it wasn't that long ago that we didn't have tours, these guys created the Kentucky bourbon trail. So that is why everybody who's listening to this should be thankful that we have someone like this who has their interests at heart fighting for them in the bourbon industry. 10:44 In Frankfort. Yeah, there's a there's a lot to go over today. And with all that, I mean, taxes, tariffs, you name it. So we'll we'll get to a little bit of that. But you know, we'll first introduce our guests. So today on the show, we have Eric Gregory Eric is the president of the Kentucky distillers Association better known as the KDA. So Eric, welcome to the show. 11:00 Well, thank you, you, you guys are making me blush here. So thank you for the kind words. And I've got to say, we obviously couldn't do this without strong support from our membership. So let me lead off with that we appreciate and value all of our members. And they say guess before 11:15 we before we kind of dive into the KDA in the membership and really what the key days mission is like, let's kind of talk about you real quick. Like, where's where's your background? Where'd you come from? Did you I mean, were you part of, you know, moonshine and you said you know what, I'm gonna go ahead and make this legal and get off 11:31 get into business. I this I liked where you were moonshiners? 11:33 No, no, no, no, I grew up in the cornfields of Western Kentucky. My parents ran a grocery store. My dad was a huge Maker's Mark fan and my mom like ofits and in the 1970s I mean, I could still you know, see in my mind's eye my dad coming home every day from work, boring him little makers and in a glass with one cue, my mom Love ofits and some sprite or some ginger ale and then go on the back porch and sit and that was their time and they talk about their day and have a drink. And so it was just always surveillant in and in our household. So no, really just, I'm the luckiest sob in the world. I started my career many people know as a reporter, with the Lexington Herald Leader newspaper, spent eight or nine years there, immigrated to Hawaii for a couple of years and worked at the Honolulu advertiser. Oh my God, why would you come back here that everybody asked me, you know, how crazy are you? So have you ever lived in Hawaii? It's a great place to visit but it's really really expensive. And it's pretty far away from family. And, you know, once you get over there and you realize that everything that you love deer in the world, to me was in Kentucky and not only my family, my wife's family, but I'm a huge Cincinnati Reds fan. I love Keeneland I love the horses. I love Berman. I love UK basketball and they just want a championship without me and Kentucky and things and the tug of home really starts kind of, you know, getting pretty strong. So since those 13:14 those you'd be late night tip offs, right, I mean, if you're sitting now I 13:18 will do a six hour time difference. I'm sitting there having lunch, you know, at the local bar. And in watching the games that was kind of kind of crazy. But move back to Kentucky work for the paper again for a couple of years, went into political consulting. After that one of my jobs in the newspaper was covering the state legislature and back then the limit every two years. For 60 days. A happy channel used to say that he wished the legislature met every 60 years for two days instead of every two to two years for 60 days. So I covered them and I kind of had the political bug a little bit so when political consulting and public relations running campaigns in Kentucky, Indiana and Tennessee That led to one of my clients was the electric power cooperatives and doing lobbying and things for them and they ended up hiring me as their GM lovers manager. So I spent almost eight years working here in Frankfurt is their contract lobbyist, and, and September of 2007, I got a call from one of my best friends. He said, your dream job just opened up. And I said, What's that? He said, the president of the Kentucky distillers Association, he said they want somebody with a media background check. They want somebody with public affairs, government affairs background check. And they want somebody with lobbying experience to check and I love their product. So check that check. But in a resume, three and a half month interview process, Oh, wow. And they they offered me the job on December 7. And it's funny because they asked me in my last interview, how long do you think you'd stay at KDA Acid Are you kidding me This is like the best job in the Commonwealth outside of UK basketball coach you know where President a church on downs or something like that you I said I'm here as long as you'll have me You can drag my cold dead people body out of that chair someday but but we haven't slowed down since it since taking over it is been an amazing run so far 15:18 I kind of want to kind of want to give a little bit of a historical perspective here about the KDA. At this juncture Go for it. It was not really an organization that was known for doing anything or getting anything done. And no offense to interior history, but they didn't do anything. You know, other than like some some efforts in the 1800s and the 1950s. They were mostly just kind of a drinking club of the distillers getting together and they just, they just let things be dictated to them. And I'm curious because everything changed when Eric took office. And you know, Bill Samuels, Jr, who's the longtime Maker's Mark Chairman, has told me many, many, many times is that A lot of the growth of bourbon is because of this man and his leadership for the KDA. So I'm curious, you get the job, what are those first 40 days? Like, what are you assessing? And how are you? What are you looking at? 16:13 Well, it's funny, because the job description in those conversations, they were saying things like, you know, we'd like you to, you know, can you promote this bourbon trail thing we've got going on and, and I went into one of the the meetings and the interviews, and the New York Times had just done a front page travel section feature on the Kentucky bourbon trail, and actually held it up at the at the interview and said, What did y'all do to get this? And they literally said, Well, I don't know a reporter just showed up one day and like, you're getting front page travel sections in the New York Times without drying. You know, you don't know what you've got here. This is amazing. So, yeah, that first 40 days was really transitioning. My predecessor, a great man senator, former state senator Daniel out of Springfield have I don't think is enough credit back in the 70s and 80s when he was a state senator, he really worked hard to keep the ad valorem barrel tax issue from just exploding and driving a lot of distillers and those aging warehouses that Sandy out of Kentucky. And really, you know, he was running the KDA out of his law office in Springfield. And most people don't know that Katie went part time in the 1980s Oh wow. Because bourbon you know, had taken it on the chin and most people had written it off as Matt Shapiro said to the great liquor store in this guy and there was not much you're right for the KDA to do so. He You know, he but Ed for saw the the bourbon revolution coming and the Kentucky bourbon trail picking up speed and said you need a full time staff again. And so that's that's where I came in. So yeah, that first 31st 3040 days was really quite frankly kind of relaunching the association from scratch. We had to find an office in in Frankfort. We moved our operations here from here was running it out to get him his law office in Springfield, Washington County, find an office. After three or four months, I was allowed to hire an executive assistant and just got thrown into a legislative session, you know, with no idea. We need to come up with priorities. And you know, just really, like you said, start to get the KDA build an image bank among the legislators that we're here and we're lobbying and we're not asleep at the wheel anymore, 18:28 quite frankly. Can you remember that that first lobbying experience you did for the KDA? 18:33 Oh, yeah. They started talking about tax raising taxes in 2008. And myself and the wholesalers Association, and the retailers all went in and started talking to, to the legislators because they had just raised our taxes in 2005, wholesale taxes went from 9% to 11%. So we went in and say, Look, as you just, you know, raise our taxes a couple years ago. You're Gonna do it again and we fought it back that year and 2008 but then it came, you know crashing down upon us is very mentioned in 2009. But, again, I was doing all this I'm a bourbon geek. First of all, I'm a longtime bourbon geek. I'm one of the people that stood in line and you know, outside of liquor barn waiting for the different wax colored bottles and whenever bill Samuels I was one I am one of the first before I took this job, I was one of the first bourbon ambassadors at Maker's Mark. I worked my way through college at a liquor store right before Keeneland All right, what bottles were you stashing away back? at you know, we hidden makers gold that was really about the height of bourbon back then, but I remember vividly when we got the first bottles of Blanton's in the liquor store, and they were $35 and we were like Who the hell in their right minds gonna pay $35 for about a bourbon you get makers for 10 over here, right you know and Because we were the last liquor store before Keeneland in the airport, Toyota had just opened up and all the Japanese executives would stop at our liquor store and stock up on bourbon that before they got on the plane to take back home, and they fell in love with blends, and they love the bottle and the horse on top of the bottle. And so every Friday night, when they were making their rounds back to the airport to go home, there was a line of camrys waiting at the draft through and I knew I had to have cases in cases of Blanton's there and I would just go out and load them in the back of the car and they hand me over the cash and go so is more and more of the small batch really the bean products, the small batch selections, the you know the the knobs and things like that as those started rolling out. I had to really become more knowledgeable about what was coming out for our customers at the time. And so my friends all kind of, you know, kidding me about them being the bourbon geek and in teaching about that. So that's awesome. It really 20:58 does run through your veins. 21:00 You know and again and I got a lot of great tips track tips you know from the trackers coming in I think between that and you know that kind of kept me in school paid for for 21:12 me people can say that they made their way through college just like having a good few bets here and there right? 21:18 Especially my bets I guess what's your percentage on on betting? 21:23 I do. I don't do it anymore. You know when you've got young children Fred so once you your children start growing up and I've got you know, I'm putting my first into college later this year and then my son who is getting ready to turn 16 I got to get a car for him and everything else. My sister works at Keeneland and so you know there every now and then I'll get her to place a bet for me, but, boy, my bidding has gone down exponentially is a head start. 21:55 And he said a more attention and he's like winning by that by that. 21:58 Yeah, what's the best bet is Keep your money in your pocket, right? Yeah, 22:00 exactly as I'd say, if you do have a good horse racing tip, what would it be? Oh, wow, you are gonna go bet. 22:08 You know, I'd probably have to have a form with me, you know, to answer that question. Again, I really used to study that form. And there was a group of us former reporters who are now lobbyists and in everything up here who would hit kealan all the time. So I'm big on Kentucky born and bred, you know, I do get a lot of great tips from from my sister who sees them come through as yearlings, you know, in the Keeneland sales and stuff like that. But mainly, I look at bloodlines, you know, a when a family coming down the form the first thing I'll do is start circling but bloodline so that know that that'll be a good, you know, and then you get to look at, you know, how long it is. And if they're closer. I mean, there's just, I don't know, 22:54 that's a that's a good one. It's nice. 22:56 The Kentucky way, right. Yeah. 22:58 My dad's tip, he said Always circle, the ones that were the owner and the trainer are the same person because he was like they put a little bit more effort into that that horse. Right. That's a good point. That's, that's that's his little tip. But yeah, I like to go ahead and try to run with it again, you're still gambling at the end of the day. So let's go ahead and kind of want to shift gears a little bit and kind of talk about the growth of bourbon and kind of really, where have you seen it? And kind of, you know, you've been a pretty instrumental part of this. And so a few months ago, there was a press release that came out about now that there are more barrels of spirits aging Kentucky than there are people, twice as many, twice as many barrels twice as many. You're right, twice as many. Yeah. So kind of talk about like, Where, where do you kind of see the evolution of this going? And like, do we expect three x four x now coming here in the next two, three years? 23:44 A short answer? Yes. I'm typically pretty optimistic about that. I guess the biggest challenge that we faced are the tariffs, the retaliatory tariffs that are put on us. Because you know, everybody asks y'all, you know, what's feeling The bourbon revolutionary thing and we all know, you know, the rise, the cocktail culture, the madman effect. I think bourbon tourism has been has played a big part of that maybe a bigger part and most people understand the fact that we're just putting out some of the best juice that the Commonwealth has ever delivered, again is good. But really the opening of the global markets to me has been one of the if not the driving factor in the growth of Kentucky bourbon, because the I don't think it's any coincidence that back in the mid 1990s, when we had NAFTA and the EU treaties, that's when you start to see the spike in production, and the you know, the growing global thirst, but because we're fine, we were finally on a level playing field with our friends in the scotch industry who've had a 600 year head start on us. So, yes, you know, we have seen bourbon growth exponentially in the past five years. We're currently in the middle of a $2.3 billion capital investment spree. And most of that is Pre production for that, for that global market. We've you know, especially to the EU, you know, in the past three to four years, you're looking at 20 to 30%, even I think two years ago was 43% growth every single year to the EU market. And so that's when we got the call 18 months ago that the tariffs were starting to be used as pawns in a trade war that none of us saw coming. My first reaction was damn we made it we're being used as pawns in a trade war, then that was that was oh my god. Now we're really, you know, what are we going to do now? I really do believe that. You're going to continue to see growth and a lot of people ask us after that press release came out, you know, because not only do we have more than 9 million barrels aging right now in Kentucky. We filled 2 million barrels for the first time in the modern era of Kentucky bourbon in 52 years. And you know, we'll we thought the tariffs are hurting wires. Are you feeling that many barrels and begin the blessing and the curse of Kentucky bourbon is you can't make it overnight. So administration's change, you know, you're looking six, eight years out, hopefully this issue would be settled. But, you know, if the EU market which is almost half of all of Kentucky's whiskey exports, if that continues to escalate, as it has with the new tariffs on scotch whiskey, then you know, to me, that's a game changer. You know, it's, it's something that could really have long term effects if we don't get this resolved pretty soon. 26:35 And you're you're pretty knowledgeable person on this particular subject. And there is people that talk about this all the time. But when it talks about tariffs, they talk about exports, and they have this very narrow minded view and they're like, that's fine. More bourbon here in America. kind of tell people maybe they I don't believe that's right, but kind of give your kind of explanation rationale on that. 26:57 Yeah, well 27:00 Well tariffs or taxes First of all, and in we'd like to say there are no winners in a trade war. You know, there's no really good way out of this because what most people don't understand is when bourbon took a nosedive most of the bigger distilleries diversify their portfolio so they own a scotch whiskey distillery or an Irish Whiskey distillery, a Canadian whiskey distillery. Tequila distillery. And so that's when you saw the tariffs, you know, enacted back, you know, it wasn't just you. It was Canada and Mexico, and other places as well. A company like brown Forman or Jim Beam that owns multiple distilleries across the world. They're not only taking a hit on the retaliatory tariffs on Kentucky bourbon. They're also taking a hit now on scotch whiskey and Canadian whiskey and Irish whiskey and things like that. 27:50 So they're getting both ends of it. Yeah, 27:52 you know, and so they're taking five punches through the gut right away. So you know, that's not good from an industry standpoint because You're, you know, that that for destroy a purely business standpoint, it's hurting business, then we have, as an industry have done so much over the last generation to convert scotch drinkers, you know, mainly from a global community over to bourbon drinkers. And that's a lot of investment in that that most people don't understand. And that market helps us, you know, grow here in Kentucky and produce more alcohol. So if you're a scotch drinker, if you're a newly converted scotch drinker, to bourbon and you go into your favorite watering hole now and you see that bourbon is 25%, higher in price, do you go back to what you were drinking, and now we've lost you, potentially for a generation, that that's not good. Then you've got the situation where, if you're a company, you try to absorb that 25% or as much of it as possible as you can Which means less jobs and investment here in Kentucky, which again, hurts the Commonwealth. or going to your point out, you know, hey, I've just invested $50 million and doubled my production and I've got these stills do I keep them running? Well, okay, you do that. And suddenly, in six years, there's a glut of spirits on the market, that's gonna cause a price war, which probably the first casualty is gonna be the craft spirits market, it's going to put people out of business. And that's not good from a global spirit spirits industry, as well. So we don't like door number one, door number two or door number three on all those and that's why we've been lobbying awful hard to get this resolved as quick as possible. 29:47 So talk to me a little bit through about what your processes when you're lobbying against efforts like this, 29:53 bang the drum as loudly as possible. We've met with pretty much anybody who would listen to us And I've got to give a hand to our partners at the Scotch whisky association that still spirits counts the United States the American craft spirits Association, the American just just distilled spirits Association I mean this affects all of us. So one of the things that we did in Fred was actually there a couple years ago we brought the world whisky community to Lowell and had a W nine some of their Nanos so we called the W nine and talked about this you know, what are we all going to do about this because it affects everybody and we met for two days and eventually put out a resolution calling upon the world's leaders to get together and resolve this quickly before the long term consequences you know, send them became real and even planted an oak tree right in front of the Frazier there and got a lot of press and we got a lot of phone calls about it and and we all kind of went back to our corners and, and did what we we've continued to do is is just talk to us. Every Congress person, you name it. Congressman Andy Barr in Kentucky was having a fundraiser with Vice President Pence flying in. He managed to get our major companies in a meeting with Vice President Pence who from Indiana knows exactly what bourbon means to Kentucky. And he took that message back to President Trump. The governor here in Kentucky had Vice President Pence in last year during the derby did the same thing for us to help us. We've got you know, we're on speed dial with Senator McConnell's office checking in consistently with them on what more they can do. We've had meetings recently with commerce, cabinet, finance, cabinet trade, you know, Senator Grassley, his office, all these people just really explained to them how devastating these consequences could be if this goes on much longer. And the answer to them is all you know, we understand, but these decisions are being made itself high levels. That's where the frustration comes in. And, you know, we know that the US does have trade issues with countries and we get that. And we know that the steel and aluminum thing is a real issue because here in Kentucky, we have great steel and aluminum plants because of our historical low energy rates. So, you know, we're not pointing fingers at anybody, we're just, you know, going up and just trying to tell our story on you know, what this could mean to the industry. You know, because it's like, again, it's like just putting the brakes on a freight train, which is trying to sell bourbon at the end of the day, or at least 32:38 get and I want to remind, I want to remind people to who are listening, and we're never we're never really going to get a lot of backlash on this. People are gonna think all this is political. You know, you're you're you're bashing Trump and what he's trying to do. I want to remind people that this is not political. This is this is an industry who speaks to both sides. Absolutely. And talk bipartisan Talk Talk to us about about that about how you how you have to kind of keep your personal politics out of it and how you have to work with both sides. What's that like? 33:11 Well, you know, let me start from a state point here. You alcohol bills in Kentucky are incredibly hard to pass no matter what the subject is. I mean, we've even had people up here that will vote against our social responsibility efforts. Just because the word alcohol it's in the title of the bill. So we have to have Democrats and Republicans supporting alcohol measures or they just won't pass. So yes, we are constantly we say we support our friends and we have friends on both sides of the aisle. And the great thing about our Kentucky General Assembly is they understand that because they know that some of their members because of their constituencies and coming from drag counties just cannot support alcohol yet but without like how he said yeah, 33:54 yeah, 33:56 yeah, TBD drywall wedge, the you know, the The great thing about one of the smartest things that the KDA did, you know, years ago back in 2010, was invite the craft distilleries are coming into Kentucky into the Association. We change our bylaws, because not only is it good for them and our our legacy distilleries have been tremendous mentors to them, but it also spread our political footprint across the state now in 32 counties. And so we've had legislators now who never voted wet, who vote wet because they understand the the economic impact and the tourism impact, especially of that craft distillery in their district. So that's really helped. But we know you look at you know, we have a political action committee, we raise money for that. You look at our donations, they're almost evenly split between Democrats and Republicans, because we have to have support on both sides of the aisle. So we're very fortunate in Kentucky. Yes, we have Senator McConnell, who can be a lightning rod, obviously, if you're, you know, in politics, but we're lucky that we have his leadership up there because he has the President's ear and he is always, you know, carrying our agenda. That's why we have given him awards in the past. We're very fortunate to have john Yarmuth out of level now chairing Ways and Means and so met with him recently and, and he gets it because congressman Yarmuth is a huge rabid fan, and especially in local bourbon city right now, you know, and all the tremendous growth there he sees the tourism impact in the economic impact on a daily basis. Having him in the house carrying that message for us is equally as important. And, you know, he and Congressman Brett Guthrie started the bourbon caucus in DC which which is growing and as more and more states you know, produce America's only native spirit. So we have to be bipartisan and it's funny because as presently Katie, you know, you have to be kind of like a chameleon on my Republican friends think I'm a democrat and I'm a democratic friends think I'm a Republican. And I say well, I must be doing something right. Y'all don't know what I 35:55 guess. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you also have to be careful to with your membership of when you go to bar what you pick? 36:01 I do. And it's funny, obviously, you know, when people ask me, what's your favorite bourbon Kentucky bourbon is always my answer. But in it, what I usually try to do one of two things I'll usually try to drink from the county I'm in. right then. I also tend to favor our chairman or Chairwoman right now, at the time if you know this year is the heaven Hill, year to chair the KDA. And our great friend Jessica pentagrams. For heaven Hill, general counsel is is the new Chairwoman, so you'll probably tend to see me drink more heaven Hill products this year. But then there are some bars I go to and you know this Eric, what do you want and just surprised me, you know, just just mix me a good old fashioned then and I'll go from there. 36:48 Yeah, the his memberships got spies on him. 36:51 Yeah. 36:54 They have to though. Yeah, that's right. 36:55 And so I guess one of the other things I want to talk about a part of the lobbying effort here is, you know, There has to be it's got to be frustrating because we're This is a syntax basically at the end of the day right like it's alcohol and I would imagine that government just look at it like it's an easy target right an easy target attacks. When you won't like your rumblings of anything like is it like Alright, here we go like put the bat signal in the everybody get together. We're going to fly there. We're going to squash this before it ever blows up. 37:22 Well, first of all, yes. That's when you look at the government affairs strategies for your strategy number one is always hold the line on taxes. Everything else is one a one B. And Fred, highlighted our 2009 bourbon Tea Party in which we poured bourbon on the Capitol steps. And if you go to my office on top of the cabinet, I have the empty bottles in there that serve as a daily reminder for me and never forget that you know, yes, right now they're your friend but in thirst or for revenue. The first place they usually look is cigarettes or alcohol or one of the what they We think of as sin industries. But I think we've done a good job, you know, challenge changing the conversation in the culture in Frankfurt, especially from sin to signature. And that 2009 bill was probably the best wake up call for the industry and the association. That is one of the best things that ever happened to us. I mean, I can tell you the dates It was announced, if it's ingrained in my memory is announced on February 6, they pass it on Friday, February 13. That took effect on April Fool's Day. I mean, you couldn't have written a better script for how all this went down. But you had the bourbon industry and not just bourbon the alcohol industry in general because you had the beer truck circling the Capitol. You know, we galvanized they in you, we fought the governor, the Senate president and the Speaker of the House on an issue and came within one vote of killing that in one week. And it brought us together more, more and quicker than anything could have. So it's actually a blessing in disguise. For us, because we held an emergency meeting after that, February 26. See, these are how important these dates were to me and the history. And one of our board members looked at the rest of the board and said, Are we really a signature industry? Or is that a self portrait? And you could see everybody just kind of living, they physically took a step back from the table and went, you're right. Are we really a sanction? We'd like to think we're a signature in se, but are we? And so they said, what do we need to do? And so we said, All right, we need to have an economic impact study that shows what our impact is to the Commonwealth, we need to start talking about bourbon not just as a drink, but as part of the culture and the economy and tourism and things like that. And so once we started doing that, and we did, we came up with the first ever economic impact study and it is such a tool for the industry, you know, to showcase what we mean to Kentucky that we do it every two years now. And it's a no brainer. We just know we do it every two years. To update and so that gives us also the ability to forecast right what jobs are going to do what we think is going to be coming in there and down the line. But once we started talking about bourbon as economic development and tourism in and investment in jobs, it really changed the focus here in Frankfort, that we weren't a sin industry more as as Fred said earlier, because I remember sitting in a meeting in 2010 with Bill Samuels and and senate president or Senator Robert Stivers, who's now senate president and him looking as the saying you are not a signature industry. You're an image industry, but you are not a signature industry. Coal is a signature industry because he's from the coal fields of Eastern Kentucky. And now to hear him stand up and say you may be the only signature industry left in the state because coal is is dying tobacco is dead. You know, horse racing definitely has its challenges. That's, that's been, you know, a 180 turnaround from where we were 10 years ago. But it's a lot of it's been a lot of hard work, educating legislators. And, you know, in all, like all the other tools that a trade association uses, like political action committees and things like that, to make sure that they know that we appreciate their support and changing these laws. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

1st Thessalonians 4,5 & 2nd Thessalonians 2 David Berg —The Post–Trib Public Rapture!DFO 151513/4/81 1. PTL! HALLELUJAH! TYJ! AMEN! LORD, BLESS THIS VIDEO & help this little Family here & this team that are helping make it possible. Bless our study of Thy Word tonight‚ Lord, that it may search our hearts & our minds & clarify our thoughts so that we can understand these things‚ that we may study to show ourselves good workmen approved unto God, workmen that need not to be ashamed‚ rightly dividing the Word of Truth." (2Ti.2:15.) So we do ask Thee, in Jesus' name, to help us as we study Thy Word, Lord‚ to understand it, & to help these understand it, about these Last Days, in Jesus' name. Amen. PTL! TYJ! Amen! 2. WELL‚ OUR LAST STUDY WAS ON, AS YOU RECALL, THE 4TH CHAPTER OF 1ST THESSALONIANS, in which we were describing the coming of the Lord, or the Apostle was describing it, Paul, as he writes to the Thessalonicans—Thessalonians as it's called in the Bible—today's Salonica to the North of Athens, Greece, the church there, & telling them how the Lord is going to come. 3. AND I WENT OUT OF MY WAY PARTICULARLY TO EMPHASISE THE FACT THAT WHEN HE COMES HE IS NOT GOING TO BE COMING SECRETLY BY ANY MEANS, but that the whole World is going to know it! For He will come with a lot of noise‚ a lot of light! It will be like lightning shining from the East even unto the West, like continuous lightning! The whole sky is going to be lit up! And there are going to be several big noises! For it said there in Thessalonians that 4th chapter, that the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, & with the voice of the archangel!—There's two big noises! And the trump of God shall sound, there's the third! 4. NOW, I DON'T SEE HOW YOU CAN HAVE THE WHOLE SKIES LIGHT UP, Jesus Himself descending from Heaven with a shout & the voice of the archangel & the trumpet of God & not have the whole World know it! In fact, John later over in the first Chapter of Revelation tells us, 7th verse, "Behold, He cometh with clouds, & every eye shall see Him, & they also which pierced Him"—meaning the Jews. "And all kindreds of the Earth shall wail because of Him." 5. DOESN'T SOUND VERY MUCH LIKE A SECRET RAPTURE, DOES IT?—A secret coming? But that's what the false prophets teach, "a secret Rapture before the Tribulation to whisk you silently, secretly & unobserved out of this World! You just suddenly disappear & nobody knows where you went!" Well, it's just not going to happen that way! Because every place in the Bible that you read about the coming of the Lord, there's a lot of commotion going on, lots of light, a regular light show!—Stars falling from the heavens, sun & moon darkened & whatnot!—Big noises, earthquakes, voice of the Archangel, shout of the Lord, trump of God, all kinds of things! 6. AND THE GRAVES OPEN & THE SAINTS ARISING FROM THE DEAD! All these bodies coming out of the graves!—Not ghosts, mind you now this time, not just spirits, but actual bodies, the new bodies of the resurrected. And we Saints who are alive & remain shall be caught up together with them in the air, right in front of the eyes of the whole World! 7. NOW WHY SHOULD GOD WANT TO MAKE THAT A SECRET? Why should He want to hide that great final triumph of His Bride & His Church as she rises in victory?—Finally out of reach of her enemies in great triumph in the bridal march to Heaven to join her Bridegroom! Why should He want to hush it all up & make it a secret & hide it for some reason? Is He ashamed of it? Is He ashamed of His coming? Is He ashamed of His Bride? Is He ashamed that He's rescuing her right in front of all of His enemies & their enemies? Of course not! 8. THIS IDEA OF THE SECRET RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION IS SOMETHING THAT WAS ONLY COOKED UP BY SOME FALSE PROPHETS ABOUT 200 YEARS AGO! Up until that time the Church had never heard of a secret Rapture, never even dreamed of a Rapture before the Tribulation! The Catholic Bible & all the Bibles from the very beginning taught that the Church at the Last Days was going to have to go through a period of terrible Tribulation. Every Prophet of God in the Old Testament taught it. Every Prophet of God in the New Testament taught it, that the Church was going to have to go through the Tribulation in the very End. 9. IT WAS ONLY WHEN THESE FALSE PEACE PROPHETS STARTED PROPHESYING A COUPLE HUNDRED YEARS AGO to tickle the ears of the Church with what they wanted to hear, that they wouldn't have to go through the Tribulation after all—as they'd always been taught & always believed & the Bible had always said—but that now Jesus was going to come secretly‚ quietly & nobody was going to know when He came & no one was going to know when they left! 10. IT WAS ALL GOING TO BE A BIG SECRET & all quiet & done so secretly & quietly & so slick that they used to illustrate that you'd be driving down the street & you'd just suddenly disappear!—And your car went on careening driverless down the street! Well, you're not going to just suddenly disappear, but you are going to leave your car! 11. YOU'RE JUST GOING TO GRADUALLY RISE RIGHT UP THROUGH THE ROOF OF THAT CAR IN GLORY, seeing the approach of your Lord Jesus Christ, & you're going to just sail right on up through the air right in front of everybody, & everybody will know where the driver went! "Where'd the driver go? What caused this accident?" the police will want to know. "Well, you saw where all the rest of them went!" Although I doubt if there are going to be too many who are going to be leaving any particular scene, because He says, "One will be working in the field, one will be taken & the other left. Two will be lying in the same bed, one will be taken, the other left." (Mt.24:40‚41.) 12. SO NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE SAVED. " Strait is the gate & narrow is the way that leadeth to salvation‚ but few there be that enter therein. Wide is the gate & broad is the way that leadeth unto destruction, & many there be which go in thereat." (Mt.7:13,14.) So by comparison‚ the number of saved to the number of unsaved is pretty small. But there's going to be enough of us. 13. I BELIEVE BY THAT TIME PROBABLY STILL SEVERAL MILLION BELIEVERS WILL HAVE SURVIVED THE TRIBULATION & the persecutions of the Antichrist & his orders that no one can trade without the Mark of the Beast in their forehead or their hand‚ & no one can worship anybody else except the Antichrist & his Image. 14. BY THE WAY, WE STARTED TO TELL YOU THE OTHER NIGHT that we heard that someone in the United States had received a check from the IRS, one of these rebate checks, you know‚ refundable taxes or something‚ & at the bottom of the check it said in clear, plain type & print: "Do not cash this check unless the bearer bears this same number either in his forehead or his hand." And the person receiving the check took it to the Welfare office or wherever it was & said, "What is this?" "Oh", they said, "We made a mistake. We're not supposed to use those checks until 1984 or 1986," or something like that! 15.—BY WHICH TIME EVERYBODY WILL BE BRANDED WITH THE MARK OF THE BEAST, 666, & you won't be able to cash any checks or do any business or buy or sell—as God's Word says in the 13th Chapter of Revelation which we'll get to later—without that Mark. And they're already getting ready for it! They've already got 666 on the Social Security cards in the United States that are going to be issued in 1984! Somebody got one of those by accident & returned it. So they're getting ready! It won't be long now! 16. LIKE THE NEWSBOY ON THE STREET WHO KEPT SAYING, "IT WON'T BE LONG NOW!" Everybody always bought his papers because they wanted to see what it wasn't going to be long till! It wouldn't be long now! That was a good thing to say no matter what the news was. I think I remember that he couldn't even read, so that's all he'd say all day long, waving his papers up in the air. Well, I can wave this paper up in the air & tell you for sure: "It won't be long now! It won't be long now!" 17. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE LONG UNTIL THE ANTICHRIST IS GOING TO BE REVEALED, & his seven-year kingdom begun, the last three-&–a-half years of which are going to be the Great Tribulation! But these Pre-Trib Rapturists who teach that Jesus is going to catch His Church out of this World before the Tribulation & you're going to float to Heaven on flowery beds of ease & not have to suffer any persecution, no torture, no tribulation, God's going to relieve you of all that, you won't have to suffer it, are liars! It's not true! It's not according to the Word of God! I'm reading to you from the Bible! 18. JESUS IS NOT GOING TO COME SECRETLY SO THAT NOBODY KNOWS IF HE CAME & WENT & nobody's going to see you leave except you suddenly disappear. It just isn't going to happen that way, because that's not what the Bible says! I'm reading you Bible here! He's going to come with a lot of noise & a light show & fanfare of trumpets & all kinds of racket going on! Tremendous! The greatest spectacle the World has ever seen! 19. THE GREATEST LIGHT SHOW THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN! You know, these hippies & drug-users, they like their light shows to make'm really trip out—well boy, I'm telling you, we are going to trip out on that one!—Right out of this World! Praise God? Hallelujah? It's going to be the greatest light show you ever saw & it's really going to make you trip out, right out of this World! And that's the time when you can finally say: "Stop the World, I wanna get off!" Hallelujah! And we're going to take off to be with Jesus in the air! 20. EVERYBODY'S GOING TO SEE HIM COMING IN THE CLOUDS: Light, trumpet, voices, thunders, earthquakes, noises, dead rising from the graves, the live Saints rising from the ground‚ floating right up through the ceilings & the buildings & the cars & right up into the clouds to be with Jesus! That doesn't sound like a very secret Rapture‚ does it? No! And it's not going to be! Well‚ I'm sure some of you

1st Thessalonians 4,5 & 2nd Thessalonians 2David Berg—The Post–Trib Public Rapture!DFO 151513/4/811. PTL! HALLELUJAH! TYJ! AMEN! LORD, BLESS THIS VIDEO & help this little Family here & this team that are helping make it possible. Bless our study of Thy Word tonight‚ Lord, that it may search our hearts & our minds & clarify our thoughts so that we can understand these things‚ that we may study to show ourselves good workmen approved unto God, workmen that need not to be ashamed‚ rightly dividing the Word of Truth." (2Ti.2:15.) So we do ask Thee, in Jesus' name, to help us as we study Thy Word, Lord‚ to understand it, & to help these understand it, about these Last Days, in Jesus' name. Amen. PTL! TYJ! Amen!2. WELL‚ OUR LAST STUDY WAS ON, AS YOU RECALL, THE 4TH CHAPTER OF 1ST THESSALONIANS, in which we were describing the coming of the Lord, or the Apostle was describing it, Paul, as he writes to the Thessalonicans—Thessalonians as it's called in the Bible—today's Salonica to the North of Athens, Greece, the church there, & telling them how the Lord is going to come.3. AND I WENT OUT OF MY WAY PARTICULARLY TO EMPHASISE THE FACT THAT WHEN HE COMES HE IS NOT GOING TO BE COMING SECRETLY BY ANY MEANS, but that the whole World is going to know it! For He will come with a lot of noise‚ a lot of light! It will be like lightning shining from the East even unto the West, like continuous lightning! The whole sky is going to be lit up! And there are going to be several big noises! For it said there in Thessalonians that 4th chapter, that the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, & with the voice of the archangel!—There's two big noises! And the trump of God shall sound, there's the third!4. NOW, I DON'T SEE HOW YOU CAN HAVE THE WHOLE SKIES LIGHT UP, Jesus Himself descending from Heaven with a shout & the voice of the archangel & the trumpet of God & not have the whole World know it! In fact, John later over in the first Chapter of Revelation tells us, 7th verse, "Behold, He cometh with clouds, & every eye shall see Him, & they also which pierced Him"—meaning the Jews. "And all kindreds of the Earth shall wail because of Him."5. DOESN'T SOUND VERY MUCH LIKE A SECRET RAPTURE, DOES IT?—A secret coming? But that's what the false prophets teach, "a secret Rapture before the Tribulation to whisk you silently, secretly & unobserved out of this World! You just suddenly disappear & nobody knows where you went!" Well, it's just not going to happen that way! Because every place in the Bible that you read about the coming of the Lord, there's a lot of commotion going on, lots of light, a regular light show!—Stars falling from the heavens, sun & moon darkened & whatnot!—Big noises, earthquakes, voice of the Archangel, shout of the Lord, trump of God, all kinds of things!6. AND THE GRAVES OPEN & THE SAINTS ARISING FROM THE DEAD! All these bodies coming out of the graves!—Not ghosts, mind you now this time, not just spirits, but actual bodies, the new bodies of the resurrected. And we Saints who are alive & remain shall be caught up together with them in the air, right in front of the eyes of the whole World!7. NOW WHY SHOULD GOD WANT TO MAKE THAT A SECRET? Why should He want to hide that great final triumph of His Bride & His Church as she rises in victory?—Finally out of reach of her enemies in great triumph in the bridal march to Heaven to join her Bridegroom! Why should He want to hush it all up & make it a secret & hide it for some reason? Is He ashamed of it? Is He ashamed of His coming? Is He ashamed of His Bride? Is He ashamed that He's rescuing her right in front of all of His enemies & their enemies? Of course not!8. THIS IDEA OF THE SECRET RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION IS SOMETHING THAT WAS ONLY COOKED UP BY SOME FALSE PROPHETS ABOUT 200 YEARS AGO! Up until that time the Church had never heard of a secret Rapture, never even dreamed of a Rapture before the Tribulation! The Catholic Bible & all the Bibles from the very beginning taught that the Church at the Last Days was going to have to go through a period of terrible Tribulation. Every Prophet of God in the Old Testament taught it. Every Prophet of God in the New Testament taught it, that the Church was going to have to go through the Tribulation in the very End.9. IT WAS ONLY WHEN THESE FALSE PEACE PROPHETS STARTED PROPHESYING A COUPLE HUNDRED YEARS AGO to tickle the ears of the Church with what they wanted to hear, that they wouldn't have to go through the Tribulation after all—as they'd always been taught & always believed & the Bible had always said—but that now Jesus was going to come secretly‚ quietly & nobody was going to know when He came & no one was going to know when they left!10. IT WAS ALL GOING TO BE A BIG SECRET & all quiet & done so secretly & quietly & so slick that they used to illustrate that you'd be driving down the street & you'd just suddenly disappear!—And your car went on careening driverless down the street! Well, you're not going to just suddenly disappear, but you are going to leave your car!11. YOU'RE JUST GOING TO GRADUALLY RISE RIGHT UP THROUGH THE ROOF OF THAT CAR IN GLORY, seeing the approach of your Lord Jesus Christ, & you're going to just sail right on up through the air right in front of everybody, & everybody will know where the driver went! "Where'd the driver go? What caused this accident?" the police will want to know. "Well, you saw where all the rest of them went!" Although I doubt if there are going to be too many who are going to be leaving any particular scene, because He says, "One will be working in the field, one will be taken & the other left. Two will be lying in the same bed, one will be taken, the other left." (Mt.24:40‚41.)12. SO NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE ARE SAVED. " Strait is the gate & narrow is the way that leadeth to salvation‚ but few there be that enter therein. Wide is the gate & broad is the way that leadeth unto destruction, & many there be which go in thereat." (Mt.7:13,14.) So by comparison‚ the number of saved to the number of unsaved is pretty small. But there's going to be enough of us.13. I BELIEVE BY THAT TIME PROBABLY STILL SEVERAL MILLION BELIEVERS WILL HAVE SURVIVED THE TRIBULATION & the persecutions of the Antichrist & his orders that no one can trade without the Mark of the Beast in their forehead or their hand‚ & no one can worship anybody else except the Antichrist & his Image.14. BY THE WAY, WE STARTED TO TELL YOU THE OTHER NIGHT that we heard that someone in the United States had received a check from the IRS, one of these rebate checks, you know‚ refundable taxes or something‚ & at the bottom of the check it said in clear, plain type & print: "Do not cash this check unless the bearer bears this same number either in his forehead or his hand." And the person receiving the check took it to the Welfare office or wherever it was & said, "What is this?" "Oh", they said, "We made a mistake. We're not supposed to use those checks until 1984 or 1986," or something like that!15.—BY WHICH TIME EVERYBODY WILL BE BRANDED WITH THE MARK OF THE BEAST, 666, & you won't be able to cash any checks or do any business or buy or sell—as God's Word says in the 13th Chapter of Revelation which we'll get to later—without that Mark. And they're already getting ready for it! They've already got 666 on the Social Security cards in the United States that are going to be issued in 1984! Somebody got one of those by accident & returned it. So they're getting ready! It won't be long now!16. LIKE THE NEWSBOY ON THE STREET WHO KEPT SAYING, "IT WON'T BE LONG NOW!" Everybody always bought his papers because they wanted to see what it wasn't going to be long till! It wouldn't be long now! That was a good thing to say no matter what the news was. I think I remember that he couldn't even read, so that's all he'd say all day long, waving his papers up in the air. Well, I can wave this paper up in the air & tell you for sure: "It won't be long now! It won't be long now!"17. IT'S NOT GOING TO BE LONG UNTIL THE ANTICHRIST IS GOING TO BE REVEALED, & his seven-year kingdom begun, the last three-&–a-half years of which are going to be the Great Tribulation! But these Pre-Trib Rapturists who teach that Jesus is going to catch His Church out of this World before the Tribulation & you're going to float to Heaven on flowery beds of ease & not have to suffer any persecution, no torture, no tribulation, God's going to relieve you of all that, you won't have to suffer it, are liars! It's not true! It's not according to the Word of God! I'm reading to you from the Bible!18. JESUS IS NOT GOING TO COME SECRETLY SO THAT NOBODY KNOWS IF HE CAME & WENT & nobody's going to see you leave except you suddenly disappear. It just isn't going to happen that way, because that's not what the Bible says! I'm reading you Bible here! He's going to come with a lot of noise & a light show & fanfare of trumpets & all kinds of racket going on! Tremendous! The greatest spectacle the World has ever seen!19. THE GREATEST LIGHT SHOW THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN! You know, these hippies & drug-users, they like their light shows to make'm really trip out—well boy, I'm telling you, we are going to trip out on that one!—Right out of this World! Praise God? Hallelujah? It's going to be the greatest light show you ever saw & it's really going to make you trip out, right out of this World! And that's the time when you can finally say: "Stop the World, I wanna get off!" Hallelujah! And we're going to take off to be with Jesus in the air!20. EVERYBODY'S GOING TO SEE HIM COMING IN THE CLOUDS: Light, trumpet, voices, thunders, earthquakes, noises, dead rising from the graves, the live Saints rising from the ground‚ floating right up through the ceilings & the buildings & the cars & right up into the clouds to be with Jesus! That doesn't sound like a very secret Rapture‚ does it? No! And it's not going to be! Well‚ I'm sure some of you

As we’ve seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it’s now become necessary for the spirits industry to adopt technology and delivery services to stay alive. Cory Rellas, the CEO of Drizly, was on the forefront of this years ago. This podcast dives into their business model and how they are helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could mean for Drizly, and if there is an opportunity to extend this business model into cannabis. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Barrell Craft Spirits works with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America’s most curious cask strength whiskies. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about the power of packaging. What is Drizly? How did you come up with this idea? What's the timeline? What was the state of the industry when you got started? What were the challenges? Why did you go through New York early on? What is your big selling point to retail locations? Any pricing restrictions to prevent gouging? Talk about pricing transparency. How are you using the data you are acquiring? Are you sharing the data? Do you have a CRM? How are the products delivered to the consumer? How are you dealing with competition? Are you all interested in getting bought out? What's the end game? What happens if shipping laws change? What is your best selling bourbon? What are the top 5 selling spirit categories? What's your favorite bourbon? How do you work with brands? What needs to change to get more people buy alcohol online? Are you lobbying at all? Is there an opportunity with cannabis? What would the perfect alcohol market look like? What's the latest trend? 0:00 To be the best, you have to learn from the best. Louisville and the surrounding regions are home to many of the most storied companies and innovative startups in the distilled spirits industry. And there's no better place to learn the business of the distilled spirits industry than from a university located in its epicenter. The University of Louisville has partnered with industry experts to offer the distilled spirits business certificate, a six course program designed to accelerate your success in this booming industry. Oh, it's all online. get signed up to make your next career move at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit. 0:36 I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selection has been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head. 0:54 You said it wrong. It goes bourbon bourbon, bourbon, bourbon bourbon 0:58 right brown, brown, brown brown. At 1:01 least that's what we want to hear. 1:03 I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't. 1:21 What's going on everybody? It's Episode 248 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. We just got just a little bit of news to run through. And as you can guess most of it relates to COVID-19. Pennsylvania State run liquor stores are reopening, but only with online and shipped to home orders. Until further notice. Customers can purchase up to six bottles per transaction from a reduced catalog from thousand top selling wines and spirits from the website. All orders must be shipped to home or non store addresses, and only one order per address will be fulfilled per day. This is possibly in reaction to the losses now being seen by the government in an article Hosted by Trib live.com. For the two weeks of not operating, the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board has lost an estimated $91 million in revenue, or around six and a half million dollars per day. quite staggering numbers. And the Virginia ABC has announced that for a limited period of time Virginia distilleries are authorized to ship their spirits to consumers and licensees in Virginia. Now, there's some legal mumbo jumbo about addendums to these distillery store agreements, but it's another big win for consumers and for these distilleries to help everyone get through this period, you can get more information on shipping, including a full list of all 45 Virginia distilleries on the Virginia ABC website. figures released by data analysts IWA ASR have found that for the week ending in March 22 of 2020, that total beverage alcohol sales grew by 40% in value and 33% volume compared to the same period in 2019. And this is to account for the stockpiling that we've seen during COVID-19 Spirits available in one liter one and a half and 1.75 formats have outpaced smaller variants, and the Ws are noted that the larger size formats and value brands tend to benefit from panic buying, as people look to stock their home with as much as possible in the light of a lockdown. According to IWC, or whiskey brands like wild turkey Crown Royal jack daniels bullet and Maker's Mark have been the ones that have seen this most increased purchasing. Alright, now on to something not about the Coronavirus Buffalo Trace distillery continues its exploration into oak tree varietals with the release of its old charter oak Tinker PIN code. This species of oak is native to the Midwest United States. These large Chica Pin Oak trees are often found in parks and larger States after the Chica pin barrels were filled with Buffalo Trace mash number one they were then aged for nine years before being bottled at 93 proof of a suggested retail price is going to be a $70 MSRP and like all other releases in this series, supplies will be limited. And the chicken folk bourbon will be available in limited quantities starting in April. Now today's episode is one that I'm personally really excited about. I'm like a broken record on here preaching how the spirits industry needs a digital revolution. As we've seen with the impacts of COVID-19, it's now become a necessity for this industry to even stay alive. And Cory rellis, the CEO of drizzly, he was on the forefront of this years ago. And this podcast dives into how he even thought of the idea into their business model and how they're how they're actually helping stores build a digital infrastructure to sell their goods online, and get it into the hands of consumers faster. We hit on all kinds of topics such as their competitors in the market, what shipping laws could actually mean for drizzly. And is there an opportunity to even extend this business model into cannabis. Now if you haven't noticed yet, we are doing lots of impromptu live streams that help give you some more entertainment during this time. We've done virtual happy hours with our patrons Our community, late night blind tastings and more. So make sure that you're subscribed to our YouTube channel to get the notifications and also, consider joining Patreon. We're doing zoom meetings to help connect our community. And we'd love to have you there. Check it out. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. Also, don't forget to catch Fred MiniK on his live streams every single day at one o'clock and nine o'clock pm eastern time. They've been highly entertaining and educational. enjoy today's episode. Stay safe. Stay inside. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 5:36 Hey everyone, Joe here again. We work with distilleries from all over the world to source and blend the best ingredients into America's most curious cask strength whiskies. lift your spirits with barrel bourbon. 5:50 I'm Fred minich. And this is above the char this past week. I'm just telling you, my brain has been suffering. I've been working so hard on I've been doing two live streams a day on YouTube. I've been writing a lot for Forbes, I've been blogging as much as I possibly can. And I hit a wall I hit a wall where I had no ideas left me none in the tank. And I want to thank every single one of you who responded to my query on Twitter, where I simply asked Can you please give me some ideas for above the char? I got so many great ones. I'm going to start with this one from the whiskey stop. It's at the whiskey stop on Twitter. And he wants me to talk about the power of packaging. A unique shape of the bottle. Does it have a twist top a synthetic cork, maybe natural cork a great or unusual label? Did it influence your purchase was a good did it suck? Did the packaging work? its magic on you. What a brilliant question and what a time Hundred like truth is that packaging matters. Oh my God does packaging matter. And let me tell you if you overthink packaging, you will fail and that is where you fail. Most of all when it comes to packaging, what I have noticed is is that many people try to target women and they do it with like a like a fluffy pink or they've got some kind of like special dressing on there and they have like rainbow colors, and women rejected every single time. Another one is when someone tries to be overly fancy, they get like a crystal, a major crystal top, a really fancy label, and then they fill it with like two year old MGP whiskey 7:49 adds a big fail. 7:51 So the packaging always has to match what's inside the bottle and the packaging cannot overstate Something so the overselling is the case of a brand that went too far with trying to attract women. And the whiskey not matching would be the decanter or the bottle that had shit whiskey in it. And the bottle was just stunning. And I've always believed that to me, you can measure a bottle by what is fascinating it or the closure. I am such a fan of natural cork you can read my cover story and bourbon plus magazine to get an idea of like, what goes into making court but I am really connected to the earth and I love I love the sustainability aspect of cork. And when I hear that pop when I pull the bottle next to my ears and I go that is an undeniable sound that makes my mouth water and makes me want a sip. A screw top doesn't do that. Lot of the synthetic corks are like stuck in there like they don't make that same sound. And the glass tops that are starting to become more popular. I could never get those things off. I have to pry them off with the damn, you know, butter knife. To me it all starts with with a good cork on the top. Now people can argue all day long of the merits of cork, but I'm just here to tell you I know what I like. And I like hearing this sound every time I open a bottle. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, listen, I'm bound to continue to run out of ideas with this Coronavirus stuff going on. Because I'm not stopping. I am driving content every single day. So hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or YouTube and give me some ideas for above the char I'll select my favorite and read it in the next episode. Next week, cheers. 10:05 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kenny Ryan and Fred in our virtual hangout space. And today we are talking about a topic that we know far or should say, we know all too well, you know, when we talked about this on the roundtables, we talked about it, you know, with distributors, we talked about what is the future consumption and delivery of alcohol really going to look like for the the mass market and we look at, you know, coming from a tech industry myself, we try to figure out, like, how can we get, you know, our product into the hands of consumers faster than anyone else. And what we're gonna be talking about today is really talking to a company that's on the forefront of all this. And when we look at this, it's not only just being able to get in the hands of consumers, but you can get it in less than an hour sometimes. So I think it's gonna be a really cool conversation of how we really dive into this. So Fred, and Ryan I mean, you know, we've we've talked about shipping before, but have you all have y'all ever had a service delivered bottles to you yet? 11:08 No, not yet. But I'm super excited to learn about it. I'm fortunate I live like a half mile from a liquor store so we can get it pretty easy. But yeah, I mean, the liquor industry moves at a snail's pace. So you know, there's a lot of friction points and getting bottles delivered to your house and I've had plenty of bottles delivered to my house just not legally. But I would like to make it legal so yeah, I'm really excited to talk to them about this today. 11:36 Yeah, I've had I've had quite a bit sent to me I also you know, being being a personality on the spirits network, they regularly send me stuff and they you know, that's part of their, their whole thing is that you join and you get to be become a Club member, and they ship barrel pics and stuff to you. 11:56 And so let's go ahead introduce our guests today. So today, we Have Cory rellis Cory is the CEO of drizzly, you might have seen him or the app, you've seen probably their logo and a lot of liquor stores are the ones that deliver bottles from liquor stores to your doorstep. So Cory, welcome to the show. 12:15 Thanks for having me, guys. 12:16 So was that a decent elevator pitch? Or do you have a better one? That's usually us. 12:21 It's a common misconception. So I would actually like to give you my elevator pitch. 12:25 Please do please do. Yes. 12:27 Yeah. So So actually, drizzly was formed a lot with a lot of knowledge around the regulations that you guys have been discussing. I know we're going to talk about that further. So I'll put that in the back for a minute now, but the model is actually different than people think we don't do delivery. And really what drizzly prides itself on is digitizing the inventory of local liquor stores, so that a consumer can come online, shop across their stores and find a larger selection, comparison pricing and ultimately get that delivered to them. But the delivery is done by either the retailer themselves or Third parties, that door dashes Postmates shifts to the world. And so we're really a tech middleman empowering the three tiers, but not necessarily changing the status quo. 13:10 Cool. So it's kind of like a an Open Table kind of concept for liquor stores, maybe you're kind of looking at what's available and can then kind of pick and choose that way. 13:20 Yeah, that's not a bad comparison. And Ryan, you were saying you live next to a liquor store. And I think that's really drizzly, his opportunity is not necessarily to replace the liquor store, but to provide an experience you couldn't get by going to any one liquor store. And that goes again, back to selection, to transparency of pricing to the surface and multiple stores being able to get to you when and where you want it. 13:40 And so I kind of want to roll back the hands of time here and kind of learn more about you so kind of talk us through, you know, where did Where did spirits become or is this just like an idea you had and you said, like, Hey, this is fun. Like, this is a this is an opportunity that's, that's basically ripe for disruption. Like, what What got to the point of like you getting here and saying like, okay, cool, like this is gonna be a good venture to kind of go through. 14:07 Yeah, it's a it's a less sexy story than you might imagine. And it started with regulation. So going all the way back to my cousin Nick, Nick rellis, and then co founder, Justin Robinson. And it was born out of trying to figure out why alcohol was only 2% online, or even one and a half percent online. When you saw grocery, when you saw a restaurant, we saw electronics and clothing, all these other verticals are coming online at a rapid rate. And we started to think about why that is with alcohol. And regulation became the clear component of this whole piece. And so we started digging into the legal code. I mean, truthfully, looking not only at the repeal and the prohibition, but also state by state liquor codes and trying to understand how does this model need to work for alcohol? How can a tech platform both empower the industry but not be a part of the industry and still be an unlicensed entity within it? And then the third piece is, how do you carve your moat? How do you be more than deliberate because you know, when we start projecting the 10 years down the road, that's a commodity at the end of the day and so we need to be better than going to the liquor store and elevate the status or I'm sorry, elevate the physical liquor stores to do something that couldn't do in the physical world. 15:11 Alright, so I don't know if he really answered my question there because I really want to figure out more about you right like Matt 15:17 Boyd. All of those Kenny. 15:19 Bad we want to get to know a little about you, right? I mean, like, like, we're like so where'd you go to school? Like Where'd it Where'd this really kind of like, really spawn from? 15:27 sure my road was a little bit sideways. I grew up in Texas. And I would say that I'm a big bourbon fan for that reason grew up loving bourbon actually, but was a soccer player at Notre Dame spent five years there had a fifth year for soccer and wanted to play professionally after school. But a couple ACLs later, had to give up that dream and ultimately had done an internship after my first injury, kind of preparing just in case it didn't work out in the long run, and took a job out here in Boston at Bain Capital. They're credited affiliates, sanctity advisors. And that's when I started to get to know businesses a little bit better. I started to get to know regulated industries incredibly well, I was dealing with coal and steel and some pretty, pretty old industries at the end of the day. And then the three of us that I was mentioning, started just kicking around ideas. And so this was a big jump for me, I was in, you know, kind of the standard finance track at that point, thinking about what the next couple of years looked like, whether it be business school, or continuing doing what I was doing. And it felt like the right time to jump it felt like the right collection of folks to try something new with and a little bit of naivete got us to the final to the finish line and push us over the edge 16:40 to like your own little incubator, if you will. 16:43 We had a bunch of ideas. They were all terrible. So 16:47 we struck out on a few. This one became, I mean, really, the passion of the other two guys is what got me to believe and then the more we dug in, the more we really peel back the onion, the more we knew something was here, not just as a small thing. company but something that could really turn into something as a larger platform. 17:03 Give us a timeline behind this what was you know, when when did the light bulb light bulb go off? 17:10 Yeah, so 2012 the light bulb was starting to go off with the text of why can't you get alcohol delivered? And the response was you can you idiot. And so that started down the rabbit hole of when you get called out to some extent, what do you have to do? You have to take the next step and figure it out. And so that's when we started researching the liquor code. And it's funny how things work in Boston being a good microcosm of this project. One question you get and put in touch with the next guy who you can then ask the next question to and it starts to unfold unto itself. And it's not necessarily we saw some grand vision of what alcohol e commerce would look like and what drizzly has now become, but the next step was always apparent if you're willing to take the time. So 2012 was the idea. 2013 was the very first iteration and we've evolved since then. But bringing one liquor store online. Learning about consumers and what they're looking for what e commerce was. And then in the last three years, our models really accelerated. 18:07 So walk us through like the state of the industry, then when you guys are getting like what it were liquor stores doing as far as inventory or trying to do online sales, what was kind of the State of the Union when you guys got it started? 18:19 I wouldn't say it's too different now. We're moving it forward, but begrudgingly, I'd say for some of them. So what was fascinating about the current landscape delivery did happen, but it didn't happen in the paradigm in which we have now moved it towards which you could call liquor store. You didn't necessarily know it was on their shelves, but you could say, you know, I'm having 10 people over for a party, I'd like to place a $500 order split between a couple things, can you make some recommendations, so there wasn't transparency into what you could buy nor the price behind it. And you had to have big orders at the store is going to take the time, but delivery did happen to some extent. On the other side. Ecommerce within this space was just like not even on the radar for regulators or legislators. So you're talking about prohibition being repealed, that is still a lot of the framework and the intent behind the laws that are written. And so there was nothing to comment on e commerce at that point. And one of the first things we did I mean, this is the time of Uber, right? The cars are moving around you at the touch of a button, the world's changing because you have a phone in your pocket. And we're sitting here thinking, Okay, well, how does it need to look for alcohol? And unlike Uber, we couldn't just get into a city try to stoke up consumer demand, and then ask the regulations to be changed. That's just not the way this industry works. We had to go the other way. And so one of the first things we did was go to New York State, the Liquor Authority, they're the SLS. And we asked for a declaratory ruling relative to our model to basically say, not only we elite, not only are we legal, but we're three tier compliant, and we're doing things so aboveboard, that the SLA is willing to bless our model going forward and so that was actually the first moment where became not just a hobby, but very real and something that we thought we could then Take a run with. 20:01 So you you kind of said, All right, we need to sit down, look at the laws and figure out how we can sort of navigate these choppy waters. I would imagine when we've we've talked about all the time, anytime you try to put any kind of disruption into this marketplace that there is you're going to be hit hard with a lot of people that are lobbying against you. What were some of those like early conversations, you remember having people that are like this will never work like you're not going to get it to fly. 20:29 I have a hard time remembering ones that weren't like that, to be honest. So I can speak to the other side easier. Most of it was doubt that this is a very slow industry to change. And you have pretty significant entities that control pieces of the supply chain, and if they're not on board, you're not going to have success on a macro scale and other slices of it. That can work. You could do direct to consumer wine, you could do shipping, there's different pieces of it. But on a macro scale of trying to bring the physical footprint of alcohol online. We needed a few things to go right one was New York. And Funny enough, the the woman, Jackie flute, who blessed our model, as the general counsel for the New York State Liquor Authority is now on our team. And she was kind of the veteran in the space when she put her stamp of approval that meant a lot to the industry. The second one was the wholesalers, the wine and spirits, wholesalers of America and powerful group of people and in terms of their lobbying prowess in their space within the industry, and we got them on board as a three tier compliant model that can move forward the consumer experience in a way that they could get behind. So that was that was a big piece of it as well. 21:33 So you talked about being going above and beyond what the authorities there were, what were some of those things that kind of helps sell New Yorker where they were like gave you that that blessing? 21:44 Well, I think transparency is the first thing and not only transparency, communication, but transparency of the supply chain and what consumers purchasing what bottles from what retailer and if you can track all of that which obviously tech can do and can really enable that process. That is a leg up for many Anything that's happening in delivery today, connect. The second one was, we came with an offering for ID verification through delivery. That was again, not only transparent, but did it in such a way that they could have confidence that under age was not going to be a problem within this business model. And then I think the third part was just being very descriptive on how the flow of funds work. And then also what drizzly is and what just isn't, I think there's a line that needs to get drawn as to what is a retailer's job and competencies. And when you encroach on those too far, you start to erode the license that they have worked hard and in need to live up to, relative to what a software platform is doing on the other side. So it was more just a lot of learning and explaining who we are and how we do it. 22:45 So I know that the liquor laws are they're different everywhere. I mean, every state is different. You've got to navigate that everywhere you're trying to launch. And so when I think of New York, one of the things that I know of at least in New York, and who knows if at least There's plenty of stores that actually have websites in New York. And they can deliver within New York as well, like they can run through UPS, FedEx or whatever it is. So what was the idea of going through something like New York first, that might already have some sort of system set up like this versus something like Texas, right, which is a huge market, but has a lot more regulation versus something like DC, which is really like the Wild West? 23:26 Yeah, there's a few things to pick apart there. So we actually got off the ground in terms of our model in Boston. And then we went to New York to get the model blessed one because of their size and then to the regulatory credibility when they put their stamp on something. But what was unique about Massachusetts in one of those fortuitous things that happens. It is a an incredibly regulatory driven market for alcohol. So if you're compliant here, you've almost kind of fit the lowest common denominator for the rest of the states. And you can roll it out from there. So I think that was a big fortuitous bounce in our direction at the beginning. The second thing We learned from a consumer side of things, every state is so different, and how consumers buy alcohol. Because of the regulations in New York, as you're mentioning, you have a wine and spirits store and a beer store, you have a license cap so that you don't have chains. But you have a ton of independence, which is obviously very different than Texas or California, where you have a bevmo or some of these larger chains out there. So the consumer experience really needed to adapt on where you are, and who you're going to be working with on the retail side, the East Coast was set up pretty pretty darn effectively for us because we could work with independence, learn how to bring on a smaller shop make a real difference in their business. And then as we rolled out to larger cities and states, we were more ready. We were more ready to have conversations with some of the bigger retailers. 24:45 Yeah, I think that's one of the things that we should most most people that are in the retail market should really start looking at is how do you become a little bit more competitive in today's market and just being on the corner and relying on your neighbors to kind of keep you in business might not be able to thing that's gonna keep you floating for much longer. So when you go and you have these conversations, or at least in the very beginning, I'm sure you have a whole team that have these conversations now with liquor stores around the country, what's your what's your big selling point to them to say like, hey, like we can bring your inventory online? Do you integrate with like their existing POS? Or does it say like, Hey, you need to have a new POS system that that we we run and manage, like, how does all that work? 25:28 There's a lot to it. But you appeal to them first as a consumer, and you start to think about other industries and how they've come online. And where do you buy airline tickets? Where do you buy hotels? How do you buy or how do you shop? for clothes online aggregator model and starting to get them thinking about this is going to happen in the space. It's not a matter of if it's a matter of when and so you appeal to them on a consumer level to start. The next thing you're really dealing with is fear. You're dealing with fear of competition, you're dealing with fear of transparency of pricing, and that's how far back this industry goes. As you know, they still believe That people can't get their prices if they wanted to walk in, it gets a little irrational. But then you can speak to them around numbers now. And this is obviously changed over seven years. But you can talk to him about incremental consumers that they wouldn't have been able to serve otherwise. And we have data behind that. You can talk to him about how a marketplace actually elevates to the experience to the point where multiple stores are able to succeed at a level that if you were the only one doing delivery in this area, we wouldn't be able to get those consumers to not only come and check out the site, but also come back and shop from you in the future. And then the last thing is, is we need to be more than just the consumer marketplace. And so when you're talking about point of sale systems, we need to be to elevate and help them generate more profit from their in store business, that things there's things like the catalog and the accuracy of what's on their shelves and how they actually think about that there's data on consumer trends and what they want to put on their shelves at what price at what time. So there's a lot of things as a tech company that we have access to the can really elevate their entire business and it's a whole package that when you work with drizzly makes you a better retailer. 27:01 So you brought up up pricing. One thing that we've noticed a trend in liquor retailers is there's a lot of price gouging. Do you have any restrictions or anything like that with the retailers you work with that you set them within like a 27:18 close to the MSRP or anything like that? 27:21 And it's a good question. So in some states, the price in store is legally mandated to be the price online. And I could give it's a couple states, it's not the majority by any means. So that one takes care of itself. But our job is really to bring their in store experience online and the way they want to do it. Our approach to price gouging is not necessarily to give them mandates on what to price it or to keep it in certain things is to insert competition. It's to have a marketplace to keep them honest to the point where if you are going to try to price things 40 50% up because they're rare and Other people that have that same item, they're obviously not going to purchase yours. And so it really just gets back to an efficient marketplace idea and making sure that consumers are the arbiter of what's successful and not regulations or drizzly or someone else. 28:14 And so to kind of like tackle or shall I say, like, tack onto that one a little bit. When we think about pricing, we've actually had KL we've had a spirits on the show, because we kind of talked about like, what does it look like to be in an online first kind of market? Right? Like, like, that's gonna be the new consumer drive. That's the new demand. If If Amazon's next whatever's coming next, if it's drizzly next, whatever, it's going to be like that online marketplaces really where people are going to go for. And so the other thing about the pricing aspect is this is like when you put your prices online, you're creating this level transparency, because you know exactly like what somebody's charging for a 750 ml in early times versus what somebody else is charging. Does that ever like Upset any retailers? And they're like, Wait a second, like, how are they able to charge less than I can like, what's their? What's their distributor? charging them versus what they're charging me? Do you get caught any of those kind of situations? 29:12 There's definitely yes, I mean, transparency introduces more knowledge into the marketplace for sure. Are we introduced to that conversation? Not necessarily. But I'll tell you one of the biggest learnings from early days it drizzly from switching from a single store experience. I am shopping from the store across the street, who I've been brought online through drizzly to a marketplace where I'm shopping by brand first and then drizzle is telling you the best way to access that product, whether it be selection, you can only get it at one place, price delivery, all those different things. And so what's come out of that though, one store may price something as a margin builder. Another one actually may price price it as a loss leader, and the various strategies within those retailers really come to fruition when you break down those physical barriers and put all of those things on one page together, so it's not necessarily that, hey, I'm getting a worse deal from my distributor. But it starts to highlight what someone does in store online in a much, much more transparent way. And you compete a little differently online. And so it started to me an education of this is how I went in store helped me win online. And there's usually an avenue to do that. That's the bigger conversation more so than I'm getting gouged by my distributor. 30:24 Yeah, that was 30:25 actually going to be my question how, as a liquor store, do you compete online, it kind of reminds me of the car business, you know, like the car industry used to have to rely on a salesman and try to whittle them down and beat them down to get the you know, the most fair price but now everybody knows the price What can a store do to compete? You know, if if you guys are and what parameters are you kind of determining that makes a store better or worse for someone? 30:50 Sure. And it's one of those things when you when you come on a jersey you're going to see a bunch of information and that's really where where I think we can win in the long run. Is asymmetric access to information and that includes price. That includes delivery times, that includes your selection, whether it be longtail wines, or high end and rare Bourbons. And so highlighting that is a big piece of it. And then you start to think about other people that are starting to focus in this industry. I mean, grocery, for example, is starting to come online for alcohol in a bigger way, total wine is being very aggressive. They are feeling independence or feeling that distinctly in the cities that we're seeing that, but there are advantages to being an independent liquor store location, for example, you have access to consumers within 2030 or 40 minutes that a total one could never get to in that timeframe. Not necessarily selling private label. Private Label online is a little bit more difficult. And so what of your selection, do you want to highlight? What are your higher margin products? And how do we highlight those to the consumers you're willing to speak to, and then also providing them tools. Again, going back to this data conversation, there's not a whole lot informing what they put on their shelves except for that stuff. salesmen walking in drizzly can bring transparency to that as well. What are consumers in this area buying? What are the trends? How should you think about pricing it? And how do you build that into an overall larger strategy to have a successful business and in a rapidly changing environment, which we're seeing, depending on which city different rates, but it's happening. 32:17 So you brought up data, you bring in a datum, and we are in the age of big data where we are dominated by it. Tell talk, walk us through, like how you use that data? Do you sell it to the to the suppliers? Do you feed it into like a market research hub? How are you using the data you're acquiring at point of sale? 32:40 Almost all of the data we acquire, we are using to inform our own offering. And so it's simply commerce things like how do we construct a better flow to increase conversion your likelihood to hit checkout? How do we start moving shelves around in what is effectively a digital liquor store to be more personalized to you So that the next time you come back in, we're more apt to show you the right product at the right time at the right price. That's really what we use the data for. Going back to retailers and brands, we can aggregate it and anonymize it and give them larger trends that could be cut down by geography, but never anything that's highlighting a particular store or a particular consumer more. So just highlighting a different slice of the market. And one of the interesting things about the alcohol industry is you have your Nielsen's and your IR eyes and some of the bigger data providers who have a interesting offering within the alcohol space. But they're big gaps, the independent liquor store market where you don't have receipt data, or you don't have consistency of point of sale systems. Those are not places so New York has an entire market. Those are not places that people have great insight to and drizzly through its 350 retailers that we partner with in New York City can start to really build transparency into a market that is otherwise been only aggregated into depletion data. So Other things. So there's an aggregated view for the external partners. For us internally, it's how do we create a better ecommerce experience? 34:06 Because that thread can be 34:07 actually, you know, it's fascinating. 34:09 There's a lot to take in, right. 34:11 I used to cover retail, I used to be the tech writer for the National Retail Federation's magazine stores, and I felt myself going back to the old days. Listen to you talk there. And follow up on that data is that, you know, we don't really a lot of the a lot of the numbers that are that are out there that are public. They kind of like you're saying, like the Nielsen numbers. They're not really complete. So my question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public? Since you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there? 34:54 There are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now, more than ever before. So how do you find The best stories and the best flavors will rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rack houses box ship out every two months to 39 states across the US and rack houses April box, they're featuring a distillery that makes us Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how rack house whiskey club is shipping out to whiskies from two bar spirits located near downtown Seattle, including their straight bourbon, go to rack house whiskey club calm to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 35:42 My question to you is like, why don't you guys release these numbers? Why don't you make them public and you probably do have the best database of sales numbers of anybody out there. 35:53 You're hitting on a great thing. And we actually do believe in the democratization of our data just because we think it's going to make all of us Better, including the consumer experience. So we released something a long time ago called the data distillery. We are thinking about how to do this in a larger way, not only for trend data, but again, how do we create something that becomes a backbone for the industry so that we are sharing data? Not because I think some people think you by holding on to it, you're more valuable. Our view is by using it to make the industry more effective, the consumers will win, which is ultimately what we're all about. One, one quick anecdote. I mean, we see trends earlier, our average consumer is millennial, older millennial 30 to 34 years old, 5050, male, female, and these are folks who are trendsetters. These are social people. And so, Rosie a couple of years ago, I mean, seltzer took off about eight months online before it did on, you know, in the physical world. So it's just one of those things where we can really inform based on the trendsetters that purchase on our platform brands and how they should be thinking about the world and then a larger play as to what you're saying Fred around, using data to benefit the industry. 36:59 Fred, you Actually, you know, and you kind of cover my question, but I guess as a liquor store owner, do I have, you know, do I have the same access to that data? Is every single store within your system? Or is it store specific or regional specific? And like, from a CR is do you have a CRM base as well with drizzly for the retailer? 37:20 We do we do. So if you're a drizzly retailer, we have a tool that's actually just culturally retailer and that gives you access to all of your sales data, all of the customers that are purchasing from you. And then also an aggregated view on some of these consumer trends and thoughts around the inventory, you should be stocking. So that is absolutely part of being a partner with drizzly and a CRM side. We're obviously aggregating eyeballs on our site. We're aggregating consumers and want to speak to them in an intelligent way. A piece of what we're doing in 2020 is starting to take our technology and utilizing that to allow retailers to do this themselves. So you can imagine white labeled websites that Allow them to merchandise their own products more effectively and almost have control of their own website by utilizing drizzly assets. And you can start to see where that would go in terms of CRM capability, the ability to talk to their consumers in a more discreet way versus the aggregator marketplace that is drizzly. So there's a lot within that, but yes, I can see us more and more powering some of their ecommerce needs, not only to benefit us, but I think it's a necessity for the market to benefit consumers. 38:26 I also think it's a necessity to because of course it for me, it always comes back to tech. And, you know, you go and you look at some websites, and I mean, some of them are just they're just archaic, right? You know, a lot of liquor stores, these mom and pop shops that try to build a website, there's a flash banner on it, you know, whatever it is. And, you know, that's why, you know, at least not in this particular segment, but this is why a lot of people that are creating their own businesses, they look at things like Shopify because it makes their you know their system a lot easier. I mean, or is that like one of the big selling points that you have for just lead a lot of these retailers is like, let's Let's take you at least to the 2020. Now, 39:03 yeah, that's a great point. So it wasn't when we started, to be honest, we thought more about how to aggregate consumer demand in our marketplace. And so that's a little bit different. That's almost like the Amazon side of things of will collect the eyeballs, we'll build the technology. And we're going to utilize your physical shelf space. On the other side, the selling point there is just incremental consumers incremental profit, so that that works. On the other side, there's so much we can do to look like Shopify to be a platform, which is an entirely different business model, but one that we really think we can enable the hundred thousand independent retailers out there to serve customers, and I keep saying customers because despite everything else that goes on within our business, we talk a lot about internally, the reason for our existence, our purpose behind everything is to to be there for the moments that matter and the people who create them and yes, we sell alcohol and help people transact online. But we're there to actually provide a better consumer experience and allow them the time and the freedom and To find that right bottle at the right price, I mean, we all know how cool that can be. So, it all comes back to democratizing what we do to the benefit of the end consumer. 40:10 Well, first off, hats off for trying to make change, positive change in this world. That's always outdated. That's we know, it's we know, it's insanely difficult to actually do. But I think there's one aspect that you know, we kind of want to touch on as well because it is a it is a part of the drizzly system and no, it's not just you know, basically creating the catalog for for what the consumer sees, but there there is a component of actually how it is delivered to the end consumer. So kind of touched on a little bit about you know, you said the post mates the, that sort of model of like, how does it once once a transaction happens online, at what point is drizzly done with it, and it's either on the retailer, it's on whomever, to get that into the hands of the consumer. 40:57 So when someone hits check out What we have done is send that order through a gateway to the merchant of record, which is the retailer itself. So just one data point there. If you're shopping from ABC liquors, that is the merchant of record on your credit card drizzly is not within that flow of funds at any point. What we do do on the other side is build the technology so that if the retailer wants to do the delivery, they have the ability to do that it almost is like the Uber driver app to some extent for this space. And that's about 92% of our orders. So most of this is retailer delivery using our technology, and we are providing the customer support throughout the entire experience until the bottle has received at its location. The third parties are interesting just because delivery is such a inexpensive piece of this whole thing and they've added scale and efficiency in a way that you almost need multiple categories, multiple verticals to do and you can imagine a mom and pop getting frustrated on a seven 7pm Friday. Too many orders coming from drizzly too many people internally It would be nice to be able to have a courier of some sort. So that's what we built in. They're all tech based, we have full visibility into when it reaches the consumers hands inclusive of ID verification. So we're always a part of it. And at the same time, we're not the ones physically handing the bottle off. 42:16 So you're like a almost like a marketplace, right? As for getting those together? I mean, is I mean, is it really like you're popping out? And it's like saying, like, okay, like Uber Eats, post mates doordash, like, whoever is going to answer this, like, come and pick this thing up. 42:29 We don't put it out to bid per se but we do work with most of the partners you just said. But that was also an idea to be honest. And there's people who have created that, we found that having one option per store is a little bit better just because you get used to who they are and do things in a in a bit simpler way. 42:44 And so I guess a another question that I kind of want to actually go ahead and because it's I'm sure it's a the business side of this. So go ahead and answer it is 42:51 actually a business side. So you talked about how you kind of laid the framework for this whole really, for what is an is an new category that's kind of changing the space and now you got competition. You got all kinds of people coming on board, minibar and a few others. So how do you? How do you how do you deal with that? How do you, you you have to compete with him at individual retailers? Do you guys share retailers? How does that work with your competition? 43:21 Well, Fred, I mean, going back to 2013 when we Magneto got back in the stone age's. Exactly. I felt like I got some grit. Now, that was pretty good. In 2013, when we kind of announced the model, there were about 50 meters out there, minibar absolutely being one of them and have a lot of respect for what they've done. That phase isn't necessarily over at any time, but the big boys are now here. And so we're actually thinking about competition, not necessarily for just alcohol specific, but the logistics firms. I mean, Uber Eats has tried to do alcohol delivery. 10 different times instacart has prioritized alcohol and e commerce. Why Walmart and grocers are starting to think about how to do this in a bigger way, total wine. So you can imagine that there's, we almost need to find a way to succeed. And this is what we talked about a lot internally. In 567 years, every bottle on every shelf could be transacted online and sent to a consumer, whether it be delivery pickup or shipping. And in that world, how does your business model succeed? And that's really where it just has been built for. Not necessarily the me twos today that are, you know, predominantly just about delivery and convenience, within that 44:32 value proposition. At what point do you stop, you know, you're talking about some pretty big names and they're trying to get in the space? what point do you stop competing and just start? You can't beat them join them in that regard, is that the end goal? Seems like with most tech companies, they want to get absorbed or bought out, you know, at some point have an exit strategy. 44:51 Yeah, I mean, there's always there's always thoughts on the next strategy, but to be honest, we're being built for the long haul and alcohol is a bit a bit you I mean, there is a moat, from regulation that comes from embracing them, rather than trying to knock down these laws. Now, if tomorrow, the Three cheers went away, and it looked a lot more like selling electronics online, I might have a different tune as to about where we fit in the long run. But I do think we can stick out a place here for the long term. And a lot of that comes back to kind of this underpinning of how do you take regulation and code that into your technology? And then also, how do you take a mom and pop an entirely fragmented retail base, and then aggregate that in such a way using your catalog, your tech that we know where every bottle is in the country, its price and how to get it to a consumer, what you build on top of that within your product experience? Just kind of opens up the world to you and I just think that's something entirely differentiated and difficult to replicate. All that being said, not looking to sell by any means today, but it's obviously something you sit up a little straighter when Amazon gets into your space. 45:58 Yeah, I would imagine so. Yeah, I mean, I think I think Amazon might have been one of the big names that, you know, people are gonna recognize and you know, they're they're definitely trying to get into the space as well. And so, you know, another question that that kind of follows along with that is the when we start looking at, you know, Amazon, you start looking at instacart, and all these different kinds of companies that are trying to get into it. And if you kind of said something like, if the three tier system is goes down tomorrow, like what what would that really mean for you all? And if basically, this gets democratized to the point that it is just like, buying and you know, buying an electronic off Amazon like, What? What is that? Is that truly like gaming or a game over? I mean, are you really reliant on the three tier system to to make this happen? 46:47 At this point? No, but I think two things become obvious. Right now brands are about as far away that you can be from a consumer when you're a big CPG right. So they are unbelievable storytellers and brand builders from The awareness message side of things. But it's not like Procter and Gamble and Walmart, where you have co located offices and you're trying to figure out where to put things on shelves and incentive basis. And you know, you're buying shelf space and tap space and the rest. That doesn't happen well, at least not legally, at least today. And if that goes away, then the way brands work with retailers changes overnight. And drizzly has a value proposition there, but it does need to shift pretty significantly. The other side of the coin though, is we almost need to plan for the three tiers to go away because drizzly successful, when the product experience, the consumer experience is so good that they no longer need to go to the store. And that goes back to not just the selection and the availability and the transparency of price, but then packaging it in such a way that again, almost guided shopping or personalization to where you almost feel like you're missing out if you're not going to Jersey because you've learned so much about your product. There's a crazy stat we just learned that you know 40 45% of our consumers Unless you're using Drupal as a discovery tool, and not necessarily transacting on the platform, I think that's fascinating. I think that's something that we can really lean into to drive value for the consumers at the end of the day. And again, I think that's one of those unique things that regulation be damned, we can do better than anyone else. 48:16 And how does your game change if shipping laws are broken down? Now, let's say the three tier system still there, and it's great. However, now that you know, New York and shipped to California, Wisconsin, you can go to Florida, and liquor stores can now compete, you know, across state lines, like what is that? What does that do for your business? 48:37 I think it'd be a little bit of the Wild West to start, I think you're going to start to see the macro or the larger chains, assert price dominance because they can then start to think of their business on a national scale versus distributor, distributor and state by state. I think we could really take advantage of that world to be honest again, I keep beating on the same point but if we know what's in 40,000 stores We should be able to surface all of the items at the best price possible for you almost kind of this notion of tell us what you want, we'll figure out the best way for you to get it. And I think that's one in which we would really succeed. Shipping is not a huge piece of our business today. But that speaks to the use case, we're going after more so than the consumer demand inherent within shipping. So I think we could really take advantage of it. It would, it would require a little bit of adaptation and how we do things. 49:24 All right, I want to jump back into some data stuff. This is I think this is some fun. This will be fun for you. What is your best selling bourbon based on your data? 49:36 It's a little different than you might think. It's a brand that we've done a lot of work with, to try to figure out how it resonates with the millennial consumer but bullet bourbon was our largest brand in 2019. 49:48 Bigger than it's a 49:49 popular brand, 49:50 but it's you know, it's not it's not necessarily makers, or Jim are some of these other ones. So yeah, 49:55 still a top 10 bourbon from a sales perspective. Now what are The top five selling spirits so like from a categorical perspective 50:06 category spirits are the spirit themselves. 50:09 The so the know the category spirits so like tequila ROM bourbon like what what's your top five there? 50:16 I might get this wrong but we'll see here I'd go with vodka. I'd actually go with bourbon, rum, tequila, although I think our tequila selections been incredibly high end and what we're actually selling which is kind of interesting. And then I'll check for you here in a second on a fifth. I don't think I know the fifth off the top of my head. 50:37 You said it wrong. It's goes bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, bourbon, 50:41 right. brown brown, brown brown. 50:44 At least that's what we want to hear. 50:45 Well, I didn't I heard there the his mic cut out there when he said another word I don't 50:53 bleep me out but it's funny I've I've sworn on this and I didn't hear any negative reaction. Now I say anything other than bourbon. And there we go. 51:00 Yeah you get around Fred that's that's the type of banter you're gonna get out of it and so you know as we kind of want to like ask a question because we really didn't ask it in the very top of this because you said you were a bourbon fan like what's what's what's kind of like your go to you got some favorites cuz I see behind you you got a Coors Light came behind there I figured figured we could I mean you're in the you're in the spirits business like let's let's get some bourbon on those shelves back there. 51:25 Oh don't worry we do have that this is just one of the rooms 51:29 well so I like to play nice because we work with a bunch of different brands in their businesses. I'm a big Booker's fan I love 100 proof Booker's over a glass device when I go home. I'd say that's more of a Friday night drink than anything else. But that's probably my go to if I'm if I'm opening something on the regular. 51:47 What do you mean by by working with brands? Like what is what does that mean to you? Well, 51:52 I think there's two things. The first would be on the data side. So these are folks who are looking to learn about consumer trends, figure out how their business brands are resonating with consumers. And it's less even about the online spend. It's taking those learnings and apply it to the offline. And again, massive media budgets and trying to make them even 1% more efficient by learning about the online consumer in depth. That's a big piece of it. The second piece is, shirtsleeves, the fastest growing company in the fastest growing channel for alcohol. So to that extent, they are trying to figure out how they're going to win online. Knowing that in five years 10 12% of all alcohol is going to be sold online. So drizzly can be almost a test and learn area for them. You can speak to consumers in a personalized way. You could sell advertising, we haven't done much of that to date. But all of these things are basically a lab for them to figure out how their brands can come online, and either keep or grow their market share versus the physical world. 52:49 So what was that you say? 10 to 12% is what it's going to be in the future. 52:53 Yeah, if you look at some of the larger data providers, they're projecting 13 $14 billion in 2023. Slightly less ambitious than that. But you're seeing this industry come online at 40 50% year over year, which is significant, we do think it's gonna be the fastest growing CPG over the next three to five years. 53:11 So what what do you all need to do to try to position yourselves to say like, we can grow this beyond 10 to 12%? Like how, how do we change the minds of the consumer to say, like, Oh, we can we can get this to 20 to 25%? Like, what do you think has to change in the culture to try and get people to start buying more online? 53:32 I think you're actually hitting at it pretty good there, which is awareness. Not many people know that you're allowed to buy alcohol online. And even if you do, there hasn't been a way to do so that should take away from going to the local liquor store. I mean, that's, that's a behavior that's worked for decades and decades. And so to break that behavior, you need to build something that is not one or two times more effective than going to the store but 10 X and really, that's where the product offering needs. to elevate the purchasing to where I don't need to leave my home, or if I did, I need to at least see what's online to really inform my experience in a way that I could never get on store. So it's a combination of awareness, and then a product offering that is just so superior going to the store, that they're going to order it online. Again, utilizing that store, though, 54:18 for sure. And I don't know, I mean, I guess there is there is also something about, you know, being a consumer going to the store, looking at it holding in your hand. And maybe, maybe that'll just become a thing of the past. Like, what do you what do you try to do to try to like counteract, like, some arguments like that? I mean, but then again, there's also like, Alright, well, you know, people used to love to have the feel of holding a newspaper in their hand, but nobody really does that a lot anymore, either. Can I still read the newspaper? I gotta be honest, physical core. You're killing me, man. Like you're young. You're young and hip, man. You shouldn't be reading a newspaper. 54:54 no and no one I know we call me hip, but that's all right. I wrote for newspapers for a long time. DDS. to bash on them, I mean, for God's sake, 55:03 there isn't. There's a key word in there that was it was wrong. 55:08 Yeah, but to your to your larger point, I don't want to necessarily be in a world where you can't feel a physical bottle where you can't go look at it, I want to lean into that. And so while the physical store might need to change, I hope it still exists. And I do think it should exist, but in a little bit different format. Instead of trying to have 5000 or 10,000 items on your shelves, and trying to have that inventory in that working capital and play that game. I'd love to see a world where you can almost have a retailer that has an e commerce DNA from day one. And then they have the experiential side of going in being able to taste products being an elevated experience knowing that on the back end, you can get any of those products delivered to you shipped to you or walk away with them from a warehouse around the corner. So they almost become showrooms informed by the DNA of e commerce versus having to compete in the current way of doing things today. 56:00 So So drizzly has been very active on the, you know, on the on the trade front. Where what do you do from a legislative perspective? Dr. You do you guys have a lobby firm that you're spending time in DC Do you do lobby in every state that you're in? Talk us through that particular process from the government perspective. 56:23 It's a core competency of ours. It's really what we were built on. So we have an internal team composed of General Counsel who has industry affairs experience, and then also the woman I mentioned Jackie fluke, who was on the New York State Liquor Authority, and they're really quarterbacking state by state, both almost legal protection side of things, and then an advocacy side for what we believe to be the best way to bring this industry online. We have lobbyists in every state that there is legislation moving we're in those rooms and our real thesis here is the engagement is important because I mean, we spend all day thinking about content tumors and the intersection of their needs and desires with a controlled and regulated substance. We want to be a part of that. And we think we can actually help doing so. So that actually speaks to something else we're doing, which is taking our platform into the cannabis world in the near future as well. 57:16 Oh, that's I think you hit on a pretty good topic there because we've we've actually covered on the podcast before what's the effect of cannabis and the, the, you know, this the distilled spirits market? What do you kind of see is the cannabis market kind of being an opportunity? 57:30 Well, I think it's a massive opportunity. And we started, you know, talking about market size. Alcohol is 130 billion dollars sold off premise each year 2% online. So you can do that math. We think cannabis is going to be a 30, maybe $35 billion legal market within five to seven years. But you're talking 40%, maybe even 50% online. It's a different consumer behavior, and there's no ingrained I know how to go to a store and there's no kind of behavior you need to break off, there's actually a stigma from going to a store. So all of that coming together, we think is a great opportunity. We do think it needs to be informed by alcohol legislation and the know how behind bringing alcohol online, it's just it needs to be treated with respect as a category. And that's one of the things we think we can really bring to that conversation. 58:22 Okay, so I have a request for your cannabis stuff, your delivery, you need to have guys on with backpacks on bicycles. Doing the deliveries through through town. 58:35 You mean like the movie half 58:36 but yeah, exactly. 58:40 Yeah, that's not gonna. 58:43 That wouldn't make it right. A legal team. 58:45 Yeah, no, you definitely wouldn't. But you could absolutely work beside me because I come up with these ideas all day long and get shot down. So it's good. I mean, it 58:54 is another thing that you know, even with the cannabis market, I mean, if you're, if you're always engrained in these legal discussions. Do you find it like fascinating that the legalization of cannabis and the l

On the tenth entry of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger chats with Dr. José I. Rodríguez, a professor at California State University, Long Beach, about how he got involved in academia and what about it appealed to him, and he graciously shares the biggest surprise he had arriving into the industry. José also names several programs that are available for persons of color to help them feel supported and connected within the higher education space. Connect with José on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram, and check out his website by clicking here.Learn more about the programs José mentioned, BUILD, the Mellon Mays Undergraduate Fellowship, and RISE.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTAmy: Hello, Dr. J. How are you?José: Good, how are you doing?Amy: Doing great. How's the weather in California today?José: Well, today the weather is good. It seems we have weather. [laughs]Amy: Oh. That's unusual for you guys. [laughs]José: Right, right. It is highly unusual, but we're happy. We need the weather.Amy: So I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit--so you work in the education industry. You're a professor at Long Beach State. And I was wondering if you could tell me, how did you get into academia, or higher education, and what about it appealed to you? Did you always want to do this or did you kind of happen into it?José: Right, thank you. That is a great question. I got into it because I--you know, the pretty typical story that you have going to college, you know, your family tells you that that's the thing to do, and--at least in my family--you have to either be a doctor, a lawyer, or some other profession of that ilk, and I thought, "Well, I don't want to be a lawyer. I don't want to be a doctor. I'm gonna be an engineer." I started out as an engineering major, and I just got tired of doing math if I can be perfectly frank. By the time I finished a third semester of calculus I was done. [laughs] Amy: Fair enough.José: Yeah, exactly. You know how that goes. So I took this GE class in communication, and we sat around, and we were studying small group communication, and we would get together in groups and we would discuss topics and we would share ideas and we would have conversations in a college classroom--which I thought was revolutionary, because up until that point I really didn't have experience with communication in the classroom, and I just fell in love with it. I thought, "Wow, this is really cool. I think that this might be my thing," and the next semester I switched my major to communications studies. I started working with one of my favorite professors, who became a mentor, and one thing just led to another. So it wasn't like I had this grand vision of, "Gosh, yes, I've wanted to be a professor since I was 4 years old." That wasn't me. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. It was quite confusing. And I just stumbled onto what I do. I developed a nice relationship with some colleagues at the university. I got into a good master's program, and then just created a trajectory, really through networking, which I know is dear to your heart, and that networking panned out in some really interesting ways. So it was a lot of networking and things that I really didn't plan a priori but just seemed to work out in the process of doing and connecting with people, and I really loved it, and I still love it, and I think the idea of just connecting with people, connecting with people through conversations, connecting with people through teaching, through doing workshops, retreats, things of that sort, I find that very rewarding, very much, you know, aligned with the things that I value, and I find working with people to be, you know, useful. You see the results of it right away if you impact somebody's life. If somebody is moved by something that you say, you see those results very quickly just by looking into people's eyes. Somebody's getting an idea or somebody's asking a question or somebody's emailing you and saying, "Oh, my gosh, that was great. That was fantastic," and I think I really enjoy that almost-instant feedback in interactions through teaching, through doing workshops and things of that sort.Amy: That's fantastic. So what I heard in that was that you grew up with a value around education--and a lot like I was, right? I went into my college programs not knowing, like, what does that mean, what am I gonna be when I grow up, and sort of through the role of a mentor and sort of happenstance you were able to channel this value of education into something that's giving forward to new students and is true to your values and maybe not so much math. [laughs]José: [laughs] It's true to my values, that's for sure. Yeah, giving forward, you know, connecting with people, making a point or having a conversation with somebody that wasn't there before, right? So you enter into conversation or you enter into dialogue with someone, and in moments that come seemingly from nowhere you develop a line of thought or a line of argument or a conversation that is really meaningful, enriched, and it almost seems like magic is happening, that you're co-creating or co-inventing with someone, and that's really kind of fun and engaging and becoming more and more rare as we lead mediated lives, and I find that really rewarding. Amy: Yeah, I want to come back to that idea of mediated lives in just a moment, but can you tell me first - what's been the biggest surprise to you? So you moved down this path of becoming a professor, and then you got there. So what surprised you now that you're on the other side of that particular journey? What didn't you expect--good or bad--about your industry?José: Yeah, the thing that surprised me the most was the variety of activities that one needs to perform as a college faculty member. so I got into it because I like to teach and I like the interaction with students, I like being in the classroom, I like getting into discussions, I like lecturing, I like having that experience where you share a concept or an idea and it makes sense to somebody. They get it. Their eyes light up, and all of a sudden they are impacted in some positive ways. I really like that, and I thought that that was the majority of the show, but no, that's not the majority. In fact, that's just one third. There's this whole thing about publishing and being on committees and having service obligations, and I found that to be surprising and extremely time-consuming. And not that it's bad. It's just typically not my thing. I think in most areas of academia people have their strengths or their weaknesses or their preferences, and my preference is on the teaching side of things. Service and academic publishing are great and I've done some of that, but that isn't really where my passion lies. So that was a bit surprising at the beginning and at times a bit daunting, just because it's time-consuming. It's a lot of work, especially in publishing and getting your work out there and the process of revision and working with reviewers. All of that can be very time-consuming, and so that's a challenge, yeah.Amy: So I remember being in college, and I can tell you that my favorite professors were the ones that were there because they enjoyed teaching, not the ones that were there because they enjoyed the publishing aspect. They were usually not the best ones in class. I usually learned a little less from them because they tended not to care as much about making connections so much as, you know, they were worried about the publications and that sort of thing. So on behalf of your students I want to thank you for sticking with it and being there for them. I think that's so important.José: Thank you. I hear that. I hear that from students every once in a while, at times. You know, some faculty are very blessed. They won, like, a genetic and I guess personality lottery, right? They're very good at teaching, they're really good at publishing, and they're very good at doing the whole service thing, but I think most people have a strength in a particular area and everything else is okay but isn't as, I guess, you know, dominant in their professional life. So yeah, I think your point is well-taken, and at times it's a struggle for faculty who really are into the whole publishing game to teach as effectively as possible. And don't get me wrong, that's not everyone. I think the vast majority of faculty do a great job, and sometimes people who are very well-published are actually very good teachers because they're kind of on the cutting edge of their field and they are really excited about it and they bring that excitement to the classroom, and that's fantastic. But in my experience, that's fairly rare.Amy: Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody's not in academia now, if that's something they aspire to, maybe they're an undergrad or even a grad student at this point and they're thinking, you know, "Maybe this is for me." Where would they go to learn more?José: One of the places to learn more is through a mentor or a colleague or somebody who's already quote-unquote arrived. If you find a professor, a colleague, who is really a mentor, that's really the best way to find out if the career is for you. Usually when you go to grad school, especially if you're getting a Ph.D, you're gonna have a committee of people that are working with you as you finish your dissertation, and you usually have a faculty mentor or a faculty advisor, and that person typically is the type of person that guides you, that, you know, writes your letters of recommendation, that has you on their research team, and that is the primary way that you get socialized into the process of becoming a professor. Another thing that people tend to do is go to conferences and, you know, networking events where once, twice or three times a year there are national conferences, local conferences, international conferences, where graduate students go and meet people across the nation and really create a growing body of colleagues across the globe or across the United States and find opportunities to work. In fact, most people I believe, still today, get hired that way. You hire people that you know or you hire people that have worked with people that you know. In my experience, that probably happens 60 to 70% of the time. And again, just like in almost any other industry I would assume, networking becomes very critical. It becomes a part of your professional practice, and it's a great way to find out if the profession is right for you.Amy: So you said something interesting, and I know that--I'm betting that you knew I would pick up on this. You said that people typically hire people that they know and networking is important, and since the audience, for at least part of this interview--to use Living Corporate's terminology--black and brown professionals who maybe feel like they're outside of the in group and in academia, right? If we hire who we know, that tends to self-perpetuate the demographics of a department or of a school or of a profession, and so what resources are available to young people of color or to professionals of color in your area that help them maybe navigate those waters in a way that someone like me wouldn't have to do? What advice can you give them to kind of overcome that feeling of otherness?José: The feeling is a challenge, no doubt. No doubt. What's really exciting is that there's more and more programs for persons of colors and individuals from historically marginalized groups, programs like BUILD and the Mellon Mays Research Fellowship. There's another one called RISE, and we have those types of programs on campus--and they're national, they're all over the country, and essentially those are programs designed to help students from minority groups form a relationship with a faculty mentor in a larger community that is designed to help them navigate the murky waters of their professional development. They would start their undergraduate program with BUILD or with Mellon Mays or with the RISE program, let's say, perhaps when they're, like, a sophomore in college, and they would be assigned to a faculty mentor, to a research team. They would participate in conferences and get mentoring advice, and they would get help putting together a statement of purpose, a resume, a [?], and have publications with faculty members or, let's say, conference papers on their own as a part of a research team. All of those things are not only very possible, but I see them happening on campus every day. It's part of--what I do is I train faculty mentors on how to create conversations that are empathic and nurturing and holistic so that people know the kind of language that might be best, the kinds of things to say, how things might be interpreted, and we try to create scenarios where we're asked to engage in everyday conversations in a way that is much more inclusive and less divisive. So that's my best answer. Find one of these programs on your campus and join. Put in your application and take it from there. That's one of the best ways to do it.Amy: Yeah, that's fantastic. Thank you. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know, and if the target demographic for these organizations, if the target age or, you know, the target year is sophomore year, that's very early for a lot of students even where they want to head or, you know, what they might want to do. I know I was, like, mid-senior year and then all of a sudden panicked because what I thought was gonna do wasn't gonna happen, right? So I think it's great that if we can engage students earlier in these kinds of programs so that they can explore what out there, and specifically what's out there for them in terms of help so that they can overcome some of the affinity bias or some of the self-perpetuaing selection processes that maybe existing faculty have, so thank you for that.José: Oh, you're welcome. That's an excellent question.Amy: So what other recommendations do you have for students, and particularly students of color, who want to explore careers in academia? Are there books? Are there articles? Are there websites? Are there other resources around that they should take a look at?José: Well, there are plenty of resources, and again I would just go back to the resources that are available in some of these programs. Obviously all of these programs, BUILD, the Mellon Mays Fellowship, the RISE program and many others that I don't have off the top of my head, are available obviously online. So if you Google the Mellon Mays Fellowship, if you Google BUILD, you will see a major website or local website for your university or for locations across the country and then be able to, you know, gather the information that you need, not only on the website but find out what campus near you, maybe even your own campus, has that program. I know that the BUILD community goes out to junior colleges and does some pretty heavy recruiting to let students know that these resources are available. So BUILD in particular, I'm familiar with them because I've worked with them for the past couple of years, and I know that a huge part of their initiative is recruiting. So not just waiting for students to come to them, but really allowing students to know that the resources are available by going out into the community.Amy: Excellent, thank you. So you had said before that you have kind of this passion for creating connectedness and that you discovered this passion when you took a general ed class in communications, and so can you tell me more about where that passion comes from or what do you think was awakened in you in that moment?José: Yeah. One of the things that was awakened is just the power of solidarity, the power of coming together through dialogue to find what we have in common as opposed to what we have in difference, and that whole idea, you know, it's kind of a nice idea and it sounds like a really nice phrase, but to have that as an experience is life-changing, where you go "Gosh, here I come into a conversation where I thought there was all these differences or I'm not getting along with people or I'm different or there's something wrong with me," and then I go into a room and I have a conversation with a variety of strangers, and all of a sudden there's this feeling of connectedness, there's this feeling that I belong, there's this feeling that I can contribute, there's this feeling of, you know, kinship, right? Father Greg Boyle, who's out here in California, he runs the #1 gang rehabilitation center in the United States--Amy: Homeboy Enterprises.José: Yeah, there you go. Amy: He is a national treasure. He is a hero.José: He is amazing, yes. Father Boyle. He has this great line where he says, you know, "Imagine the circle of kinship where no one is outside that circle," right? And I love that metaphor, the circle of kinship, and I believe that we do that through many means, but primarily through conversation, through discussion, through the process of sharing messages with each other. I see him do this. You know, he has his daily message of the day and he, you know, films himself having a little talk, and, you know, this impacts people not only in his community but all over the country, and he goes and gives talks, and I can see that a part of their process is really this constant conversation of bringing people in, of making them a part of the community, of using a language, a discourse of unity, of connectedness, of how we come together really as an extended family and then bring people into that family, help them feel included so that we can heal what has been broken through this new experience of solidarity, right? And the power to do that through messages, through language, through metaphor, is I think just such a gift, such a beautiful experience to have with people, and I've discovered that that was, like, a rare thing, you know, that I saw in college back at the time. I'd go, "Wow, to be able to study this process of creating messages and using words to bring people together," the power of story for example, telling compelling stories that people can relate to about our challenges and where we came from and how we are similar through the narratives that we construct about our life history, our different positionality, the different intersections of race, class, nationality, sexual orientation that then help us be relatable, human, understandable, vulnerable, right? Those things I think get navigated primarily through the exchange of messages, through the exchange of linguistic, you know, discoursive thought, and those kinds of things I find just very rewarding.Amy: That's fantastic. So for those who don't know, Homeboy Enterprises is--it's a lot of things, but primarily what they do is they take former gang members and teach them job skills, marketable job skills, and then they create businesses, right, with the people in their program. So they might create a whole t-shirt company that's comprised--the employees of which are maybe even rival gang members all working together in sort of this rehabilitative space to overcome the past and to contribute to the economy and to really heal through work and through shared goals.José: Exactly, exactly. I think they have, you know, four or five businesses. They have a cafe. They have a bakery and quite a wide variety of businesses, and about a year ago one of the organizations on campus, the [?] Center for Ethical Leadership, gave Father Boyle an award, and he came--he was invited to come and, you know, accept the award. Unfortunately he was under the weather at the time and I didn't have a chance to meet him at that time, but one of the Homeboys came instead, and Miguel, who was in charge of marketing, just delivered this speech that was stunning. There wasn't a dry eye in the room. It was just powerful, yeah. So very moving work.Amy: That's amazing, and all of that through storytelling and connectedness.José: Exactly, and it was all really through the power of language. A guy up on a stage with a microphone telling his story.Amy: That's beautiful. So in the time that we have left, I would like your perspective on code switching and on cultural dexterity. So you and I had a brief conversation about this before we started recording, and I just want to know, what do those terms mean to you? I know that you use the term code switching to talk about when you're flexing between English language communication and Spanish language communication, but what does that mean to you? What's the feeling behind that term?José: So code switching for me is, you know, experientally that capacity to go from speaking English to speaking Spanish, or then from speaking Spanish to speaking English, and being able to go back and forth from those linguistic traditions, and that's how I tend to use the term code switching, in a very basic, organic, lay type of meaning, right? So nothing too intellectual or crazy cerebral, very simple, and I mentioned that to you in our conversation because I did that in the TED talk. One of the things I wanted to do in preparing for that was to be able to code switch from English to Spanish and Spanish to English, one because I thought that would be really fun, two I hadn't really seen it done before--I'm sure somebody has, but it doesn't happen very often--and also to be able to express through the power of spoken word that capacity to navigate two languages and, by doing that, create a sense of community, reach somebody through an online medium or through the internet or through whatever that message gets sent that says, "Gosh, here's somebody speaking my language," or "Here's somebody code switching," or "Here's somebody kind of going back and forth," and having a moment of identification, and I think through those moments of identification we start to experience solidarity, a sense of unity, a sense that we're not alone, that there's other people out there in the community that are like us, that are human and are willing to put themselves out there and put out a message that can be unifying, can be compassionate, can be empathic and can be, you know, the beginnings of a healing moment, not only for us as individuals but for communities at large. So for me that's my best answer with code switching. I want to just switch to the other topic that you were asking about, which is cultural dexterity, and cultural dexterity comes from a body of academic work looking at cross-cultural or inter-cultural communication, advancing the idea that we need to adapt or to adjust as we shift from one cultural orientation to another, and being able to do that is to have cultural dexterity, to be able to navigate not just my culture of origin or my tradition but to be able to seamlessly adapt to different discourse communities, right, without, you know, excessive effort or, you know, stumbling around, and that capacity I think is a skill that, you know, we really need, not only in our world but in our country, to be able to communicate with people that I perceive are different from me. I think we all need to have that as a skill set, because that is a primary human experience. Difference is a primary human experience. Whenever we meet the other, we are in the experience of difference. And how do we bridge that difference? How do I navigate that conversation with someone that is different from me? For some people that's very easy, for others it's very hard, and cultural dexterity is a concept that tries to get at the ways that we do that. And, you know, as you might imagine, one of the simplest ways to do that is, again, navigating conversations in such a way that we find what we have in common as opposed to what we have in difference. And we do this very organically all the time. When we meet somebody for the first time we say, "Hey, how are you doing? What's your name? Where are you from? What do you do? What do you like? Where'd you go to school?" And we ask all these questions to try to gather enough information to find something that we have in common that we can then zero in on to develop a dialogue back and forth around an issue that we have in common. So if I speak with you and I know that you're interested in networking and diversity, well, then I'm also interested in that, and I go, "Gosh, that's a topic of conversation that we can bridge whatever divisions we might have or whatever difference we might have, because diversity and networking are such a thing that we have in common that the other stuff just is not all that important or is kind of trivial or isn't really central to this passion that we bring to diversity and networking and things of that ilk," and I think that cultural dexterity is an area of study, again, that tries to teach those skills strategically.Amy: Excellent. So I want to commend you on your bilingual TED talk, and the reason I say that is because I think that there's--I think in the current political climate with some of the news stories that I've seen about people who have been harassed or assaulted for speaking languages other than English in public spaces, to me, for you to speak Spanish from a stage is an act of profound resistance against a culture that seeks to punish difference, and I can only imagine what that meant to someone in the audience who, you know, is a first-generation immigrant or, you know, for whom Spanish is their primary language at home, but they have to navigate a world that is in many ways alien to them because, you know, the culture seeks to strip them of language. You know, one of the tools of colonialism has been to strip people of their language and to strip people of their culture by forbidding language, and so I commend you for that. I think that's such a profound act of resistance and a profound act of courage and solidarity to do that so publicly and with so much empathy for your audience.José: Thank you. No, I appreciate that. I have got to tell you, that was difficult to do, yes, yes. It is a challenge because, you know, for all the reasons that you're articulating and more. We live in a climate where it's extremely weird to get up on stage and then not only do that but realizing that you're being videotaped and that is going to be launched at some point all over the internet and people are gonna be able to see that, you know, forever, right? So there's this strange feeling of vulnerability that I never really experienced before because, you know, I'm not someone that does TED talks every day. That was my first one. But there was this whole sense of feeling very vulnerable, very open, very, you know, out there, right? Just without a safety net, right? Especially on the day of rehearsal where you see that there's all these lights on you, right? There's just you, the stage, and these massive lights where you can't see the audience because the lighting is so powerful. You know, in order to capture you brilliantly in all the color and the dynamics of, you know, the technical aspects of the filming, there needs to be just massive amounts of lighting, and at first it was just a shock to the system, you know? Rehearsals for me did not go too well. I was very frustrated because I was distracted. I felt very vulnerable. I felt very agitated, because it wasn't something that I had rehearsed before. And then I knew what I was gonna do. I knew what I was gonna get up there and say. And after saying it though, it felt really good, you know? It felt very rewarding. It felt very evocative. It felt transformative. It felt very emotional. There was a couple of times during the performance where I choked up, because I didn't want to go up there and just be safe. I didn't want to go up there and just be very logical. I didn't want to go up there and just say, "Well, you know, I'm gonna talk about my research and these three areas," and be very linear and Aristotelian and academic because I felt that if I did that I would put on a very easy shield and not really be of service, and I just felt called to just, you know, let it ride, and I was happy that I took that risk for sure, so I really appreciate the affirmation.Amy: Absolutely, and as I listen to you I think about--it was almost a coming out, a public coming out, right, where I've seen and I've experienced, you know, being in front of a room and coming out, and it is, it's terrifying. There's nowhere to hide. You know, physically you're probably safe, but tricking your brain into believing that when you're out there on your own, separated from a crowd, right, the spotlight is literally on you and there's absolutely nowhere to hide once those words escape. It can be incredibly freeing, but it can be terrifying as well, and so--you know, and again, given kind of where we are politically and culturally right now, I just think that was incredibly brave and, you know, probably very affirming to the people that were there listening to you.José: Thank you. That tension between terrified and then having an experience of freedom, right, that is the tension that, no question about it, you feel very liberated, but at the same time a feeling of terror, a feeling of excitement, and talk about intersectionality. Intersectionality as an inner experience of multiple intersections of oppressive, liberating energies in the simultaneity of an insane moment, right? Because, you know, how many people have the blessing or the opportunity to get up on a stage and have all the lights on you and deliver a message? It's such a blessing, such a gift, and I wanted to honor that moment, you know? TED has a great line or a great mission to deliver, you know, a message worth spreading, right? That idea, that brand, a message worth spreading, an idea worth spreading, and every time I prepared I wanted to make sure that I was saying something that was worthy of that mission, that was worthy of that statement, that was worthy of that ideal, and in doing that, right, in attempting my best to stay true to those ideals, it was terrifying, it was difficult, it was liberating, and all of that happening simultaneously, like, you feel like your heart's in one place and your mind's in another and your body's going in a different direction and you forget, and then you bring it back and then you don't know how you're gonna be and you can't predict the future, but you know it's gonna be great, but you're not sure, and it's these weird journeys of the heart and the mind and the soul, and you're hoping, "Gosh, once I go through this whole maddening process, I hope I arrive on the other side okay," right? But it's just really what we talk about in kind of classic stories about the leap of faith, right? Taking a leap of faith, taking the hero or the heroine's journey, finding a way to kind of navigate your journey one step a time by claiming your truth as best you can in the moment and allowing wherever you land to be okay.Amy: Love that, yes. And, you know, the leadership lesson in that, about authenticity and vulnerability, I think is not to be overlooked, because certainly as you're stripping away some of that facade and you're, you know, opening yourself up in that way, people are seeing you as a leader in a way that maybe they hadn't before, and they're identifying with you and your story, and they become personally invested then in your success, and I think that that's--I think that's the real gift of leadership in an authentic and vulnerable way is that other people become invested in your success because they sense that you're equally invested in theirs.José: Right, I totally agree. There's this interesting dialectic, right, there's this interesting reciprocal relationship where I think through vulnerability we make connections with the other because we come to understand, at a very evocative, embodied level, our essential humanity. So I'm a human being just like you're a human being, and we're having a moment of solidarity where you might be admiring me, which is great, but I think the bigger gift is that you see yourself, you see the beauty of you in those moments, because in my, as I like to call it "stumbling successfully," I have said something or I have done something that allows you to see what is already beautiful inside you and helps you recognize it in a moment. And then you might project that onto me, which is fine, but hopefully what happens is that you feel empowered, you feel motivated, and then you feel that you want to pay that gift forward by allowing someone in your life to know that they're not alone, that they have value, that they are here with you for a reason, and in dialogue you get to discover what that reason is.Amy: That's beautiful. And if it's okay, we will end there. Thank you so much for this conversation, and thank you for extending your vulnerability to my audience. I appreciate it.José: It's been a pleasure connecting with you. Always, always wonderful to talk to you. Take care.Amy: Thank you.

What's driving you mad, have you had to cancel, Quarantine questions, Triple Glossy, Where'd they get their kit off, Wednesday WHeel and What are the kids most upset about? See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

- Because at the heart most companies that are really successful have to have that core element that has some level of innovation or difference or connectedness or opens up a market that's new and in order to do that you're going to have to kind of stay focused and bench press a lot of weight. And the only way that most people can do that is to have the heart in it. So John, Emmett, I am so excited to have you guys on the show. Today we're gonna be talking about one of the things that a lot of CEOs and visionaries don't think about but it's really important is finance. Both of you guys have big finance backgrounds. So I want to start off, let me get some background on you guys, like how'd you get into all this? Where'd you get started? How'd you meet? - Emmett and I actually met the first day of college up at Dartmouth and we've known each other for longer than we've known our wives. - Long time friends. Long time. But I got out of school and went into a banking career first in New York, then here in Atlanta. The large banks and then started a bank called Atlantic Capital with a couple of other guys and then Emmett spent his 30-plus year career as a CPA and a CFO, and so together when we formed Practical Growth Advisors, focused on serving and working with privately held companies, we find that we bring kind of complementary strengths to the table in serving the companies that we work with and the business owners. - Yeah, it's great 'cause you're getting from both sides. So let's talk about when people are starting their companies and stuff like that, everybody talks about being set up for success financially, so what are some of the things that you would advise somebody that is looking to start their company, and then also they're trying, they're like at that million dollar mark and they wanna hit that edge, what are some of the key tips, the advice that you would give somebody? - Well, Emmett started up, in addition to being on the finance team in public companies and private equity owned companies he also started three companies. So I'll kick that one to you. - I think the biggest mistake people make is they wait too late to take accounting seriously. And you find that if you haven't done a good job of keeping score you can't prove to people how great your company is. And so you do have to have a decent set of books, and as you're passing that million, two million mark you've gotta kinda have some internal resources. You can outsource for a while, but ultimately getting a good set of books is critical for the score keeping. Second, as you start passing the 10 million plus mark, you really have to begin looking much further ahead. You can't be looking back at August when it's September. You really need to be looking forward to February, March, April, May. So beginning to develop some forecasting tools, even if they're just rough in a spreadsheet, you've gotta start doing that as a management team to start avoiding surprises. - Right, so would you say that, what's the most important, to bring somebody like you guys on, where, is it like right in the beginning, startup phase to bring 'em on to get all their finances in order before they start going, or kinda working through that themselves? I know a lot of entrepreneurs are like I'm just gonna jump in and do it. What would you recommend?

Flags. What's going on there? This week we dive into this topic with no caution. It's not that controversial right? Where'd flags come from? Why do we still have them around? Why are some of them so terrible? Definitely can't answer that one. Maybe flags had a clear purpose at one point, but what is it now? God help us.

*Spoilers, but not all of them, darlin'* Howdy, Pardner. Where'd ya leave your steed, youngin? We tackle some musings on life and what may be when we snuff it. Lets remember the childhood joy of playing the Xylophone and that wooden ridged block. Did you piss in the sand box? I  know Brad did. Put us on whilst you go in the shower, see if that does anything for ya. Sending Love and Sunny Delight. Hugs and kisses from Freda and the family xoxoxoxo. Intro music suppleid by SniffItBigTime (https://youtu.be/qaaspWTc0n4)

This weeks guest is Steve Sims. Do you know anyone that’s worked with Sir Elton John or Elon Musk? Sent people down to see the wreck of the Titanic on the sea bed or closed museums in Florence for a private dinner party and then had Andre Bocelli serenade them while they eat their pasta? Well, you do now. Quoted as “The Real Life Wizard of Oz" by Forbes and Entrepreneur Magazine, Steve Sims is a best selling Author with "BLUEFISHING - the art of making things happen”, sought-after consultant and a speaker at a variety of networks, groups and associations as well as the Pentagon and Harvard – twice!Links: website: https://www.stevedsims.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/stevedsims/ IG: https://www.instagram.com/stevedsims/Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast. Each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild the newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started. As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon if you will, your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're going to find this book on kindle amazon and as always on my website, Sam Knickerbocker. comWelcome back to fuel your legacy and today we have an incredible guest. It's cool the more people that I've had on the more notable people that I've been able to have on which is always exciting. So today, we have Steve Sims And he was here in Utah a few months ago speaking at a conference for, for some people who are looking to, to understand what he does, I'm excited to bring it on. Because understanding the ROI of relationships is, I think key and everything and there is so many of the most successful people that I know that I listened to that I associate with, say relationships are the new economy, right? That's the new currency is how well do you know somebody? So, Steve, he's a speaker and author. He's the founder of bluefish, direct founder of boot camp marketing, and it's your coach and real and he's been called so this is the best thing is when people title you as things because the titles other people give you end up being some of the most wonderful ways to market yourself because you just, it's just raw. So he's been called the real-life Wizard of Oz according to Forbes, and Entrepreneur Magazine so that I mean That's a that's quite a glowing compliment to be called The Wizard of Oz. What? What pen brought that on? Where'd you get your start? And what was your childhood like? And why are you doing what you're doing today?Wow. Um, first of all being called the villain like Wizard of Oz is a double-edged sword because let's be blunt, the Wizard of Oz was a fake.You kind of go, Oh, that's very nice. And then you go, Oh crap, and they called me a fake.So I like to take it on its face value that I am the guy that can less little get you through the journey. So I class myself as an educated man. But I don't believe the school had anything to do with that. I left. I left school at the age of 15 and ended up working on my father's construction site. And I didn't have any future didn't have any hopes didn't have any goals. We didn't live in a world of the internet where we were bombarded with what the other half was living with or what they had. So I grew up ignorant. And immune to all of the luxury and stuff like that. But as an entrepreneur, you don't become an entrepreneur, you are an entrepreneur. It's either your left-handed or your right hand is just, it's just one of those things. And I remember growing up, conflicted, disgruntled, dissatisfied, and all of those things that have everyone going, Oh, you've got a DD and oh, you can't focus and you can't concentrate. It wasn't the fact that I couldn't focus I couldn't concentrate. I wasn't being engaged. And nothing was excited me. Nothing was challenging me. And entrepreneurs, we need to be challenged. We come alive. When we're challenged. And as a bricklayer, I was being told this is what you do, and then you grow old and then you die. That was my life. And it didn't make sense to me. I left the building site, and not knowing what I wanted to do, but just know Do it but just knowing firmly that wasn't what it was. I ended up selling cakes on the back of lorries. I ended up being an insurance door to door salesman. And if anyone's ever seen me, can you imagine me knocking on your door an o'clock at night trying to sell you life insurance. It didn't go well. I ended up getting a job in Hong Kong by completely lying on a resume. I lasted 24 hours and I was fired.Now I was just trying anything to get to something that would challenge and excite me. And I found it in the funniest place. I ended up working on the door of a nightclub. And it was a great position. It was a great pedestal for me to watch the world I was able to watch humanity and to see how they handled themselves how they spoke to others how they interacted, you know, like bar staff is some of the best communicators in the world. You know, they'll talk to someone in a business suit, and then I talked to a group of girls are Guys completely differently within a split second you know they are very good at altering the way they communicate with the different people based on a split second assumption of your attitude, the way you dress how which you look out for you, all those kind of things as a doorman no one wants to talk to a doorman because they're there to punch you in the head. You know, no one wants to talk to him. But I was able to watch them and I would stand on the door of nightclubs and go, I want to be that person. I want to be that group. I want to have them as friends. And so then what I started doing was trying to find a way that they would talk to me as a person and not as a dormant and because I knew where all the parties were and all the best events where I started getting extra tickets and going up to my regulars going Hey guys, I know you like a good night. Did you notice a premiere going on on Friday? Are you going? Now we're not we don't know how to get in. Well, let me make a phone call. Maybe it again for viewing I started becoming this fixer. This, this guy that knew. And the only reason I did it was not that I was a social butterfly far from it was because I wanted to give the people I wanted to talk to a reason to talk to me. It was a Trojan horse. If I can talk to you about getting you into a private body, I can talk to you about what makes you successful, how you had things, why you change, and they always say you are the combination of the five people you hang around with. Well, it was fine. I was hanging around with five bikers. So that wasn't going to get me very far in life. So I had to change my circle when I did. It just started is that before you knew it, I went from getting people in the parties to throw in the parties myself to suddenly being associated with some of the biggest events in the world. From fashion weeks to Grammys to Kentucky Derby. Ferrari's Cavalier no classic Elton John's Oscar party, I became associated with the grandest most often Skylab fluent event on a planet, and therefore my clients were those people, all those people should I say? And then I started marketing them and branding their products you know, I know people coming to me going hey, I've got a company that sells lipsticks, you know, how would you do an advert? And I will I don't like your advert because you're marketing to the wrong people. And I suddenly start became a brand and so on for these companies. Two years ago, I got asked, Hey, would you release a book on the rich and famous people you deal with? And I said, Now I'd bet I'd be dead by cocktail hour. So then they came back to me this will okay. Would you buy a book on how fabric Live from London can now be working with Elon Musk and the Pope? And that made sense to me. So we released a book, not thinking it would be successful not put any marketing behind it. It didn't do well in the first couple of months and then it took off in the third and since then, I've been doing podcasts and speaking engagements all over the world. I consult for Entrepreneurs of all levels. I have an online course called Sims distillery that helps people learn how to communicate. And it's just grown and I've become my brand. So, from bricklayer to dealing with the meanest, most affluent people in the world to now being an author, speaker, and coach, it's a very interesting journey.Yeah, I love it. And so funny how different and different people come into their passion, different ways. And some people I had a guest on a little while ago who she found her passion, really through, it was something that it was her passion as at a young age, then she lost sight of it or she was dissuaded from it. And then she circled back to her passion. And I love one of the things you said, Well, actually, it's kind of a kind of both in hand in hand, you don't become an entrepreneur. You either are one of them or not ones, as a movie, and it's okay not to be an audience. corner, sometimes because I work in the entrepreneur world where I'm actively seeking out entrepreneurs. And, and so the assumption is by a lot of people that I just think everybody's an entrepreneur and everybody can do it. And I just want to work with everybody. And the reality is, I don't know what the percentage of entrepreneurs are, but it's not a high percentage of people who are entrepreneurs, there's a high percentage of them. There's a high percentage of people who are not entrepreneurs who liked the security, as the certainty, as the safety of working for an entrepreneur,and that's fine. That's fine. There's you know, we got three grades at the moment. And it's like me moaning at you because of your height. You know, you have no control over your height. Okay. So you either are an entrepreneur or you're not. There's a lot of one trip owners out there, they look at it and think, Oh, it's a sexy life. Yeah, I'm an entrepreneur, but they can't handle the two o'clock in the morning not being able to pay your bills on Friday or the fact that you all out on the front line, an entrepreneur is a guy that jumps off the cliff, and then builds a parachute on the way down. And there are phenomenal intrapreneurs I think every entre, we had a quick discussion on this before we went live. A good entrepreneur needs to surround himself with phenomenal intrapreneurs These are the people the love that life until the last bit where you're your next on the line, and that's fine. I'm surrounded by phenomenal intrapreneurs that are creative, driven, push it and help support me be on the front line. So I believe there are great entrepreneurs, but the one tripping is not too flaky and they fall by the wayside very quickly. And so how would you help somebody if they're sitting there listening to this and they're not sure who they are, what where they fall in that maybe just because of lack of experience, lack of Discovery a lot of people who listen to this they're their stay at home moms are people who have been basically sacrificed their life for for the love of their children or for other people. And so they've never really gained the experience or tried out the different positions, you could say. How would you help them kind of look at their life and say, Well, what about me? Where would I fit in these categories? Well, first of all, as an entrepreneur, you are mich broke, rich, broke, broke, rich, rich, rich, broke rich. It's a Helter Skelter over life. I don't think any entrepreneur, given the vision chart of how they're going to be over the next few years, whatever, optionally go, Oh, yeah, I like that. Because entrepreneurs will get laughed at spat at ridiculed Elon Musk musk. He said it to me ages ago. He said they laugh at you before they applaud. Now, if you're not the person that can stand being hated, ridiculed and laughed at the maybe you should be an on an entrepreneur. If you don't care, and you want to be challenged, maybe you're an entrepreneur. But it does come down to that final line of are you willing to take it on the shoulders, finances, because a lot of the times we've lost, we've lost as entrepreneurs money, and we've got it, we're up against it. And then all of a sudden, at like five o'clock on Friday, we're going to pay payroll, and we're running all of our credit cards to do that. We've all been through it. The life of an entrepreneur is not sexy. It's not something we chose is something we are.I love that I think that's so beautifully put. And if you go back and listen to it, and just ask yourself, hey, where do I fit, you know, it's okay. You might be as creative as, as eager to create in your life, different things, but maybe you don't have the wherewithal to have people ridicule us. That's something that I, I think I always had inside of me. But it for me, it took a while to expose that because of the social programming, that you should care about what other people think it took me a while to ultimately say no, I like in my heart. I don't care what you think about me. I'm going to do, what I feel confident doing and what I want to do, regardless of whether you think it's a good idea, anybody, right?Yeah, it gets really, it's very hard to run when you got someone sitting on your shoulders. And so careful about what you do, care about what you solve, care about what you do, but don't care about someone's naysaying opinion. you'll usually find that the person sitting in the corner going, Oh, look at Oh, he can't all watch it. That person's never going to be your client and let's be blunt, never amount to anything. Because people like to sit in the corner and tell you you can't do something because they don't want you proven the diamond Quit to do it themselves.Yeah, that is something that I completely agree with. And I tell people that I work with often had one, one woman a few months back who had asked me, and well, because she was thinking about working with me, she said, Well, I don't want to waste your time. And I saw her Look, I don't let people waste my time. Yeah,yeah, not exactly.twice on me. And if you rescheduled twice, you go in the hopper of people I might call once every six months. It's just not committed to their future yet, but you may be in the future like I don't allow people to waste my time. That's not how this game works. So I love that. So moving forward, something else that you said that I think people needs to understand. And I want to add some specificity here because this is I believe, key in this phrase, especially if you're listening to Gary Vaynerchuk. Or there's a lot of people I think Gary Vee is probably the highest one that says as often it's just you have to add value, you have to add value, you have to add value to others. People before you ask for value in return. And I think that that's true. to a point, right, just adding value, there's a lot of ways to add value in people's lives, right toilet papers valuable. Somebody guiding you a Walmarts valuable like there's a lot of value that you could add. But what love what you did, you added value with the intention that the value add was intentional too, as you said, a Trojan horse to get something out of it not that you expected or that you are going to do a tit for tat type expectation of something out of it. But you are very intentional with how you are adding value to whom you are adding value so that you could get around certain individuals. And please speak to that as to why that's so important that the intentional adding value rather than just random value addingyou got to be laser focus today because we're in a world of mass distraction. So you've got to be Short and sharp to the point while creating something that benefits you as well. Now, I agree with you about you've got to add value. I also agree with you that there are multiple different levels of value. But you've got to go to the value that gets as close as it possibly can to the core of the individual. So, you know, I've worked with very affluent people, very powerful people. Not always very famous people. So you can go to these people and you can say, Hey, I know you don't know me. Get that out of the way. That's always a good one to get out of the room straight away. I know we haven't met I know we haven't been introduced, but there's something that I would like to do with you. But before we get into that, I'm aware that you support this charity. I'm aware that you have got a new book coming out. I am aware that you're promoting your media brand. I'm aware that I've got an idea after looking over this, how I can help you get more reach, get more input, get more donations to get better. Marketing getting better, and show that you've paid attention to? Okay? You may well turn around and go all this and they may turn around and go, Well, actually, we've got a marketing team that just actually said that to me. And I've said about what and they've come back to me and they've gone, hey, we've done now I've gone right. That's, that's brilliant. But it shows that you focus and As the old saying goes, they won't care until you show you care. Now, in that conversation, if you dissect what I've just said, I've got out of the room that you don't know me. And when I say you don't know me, you may know my name. You don't know my credibility. You don't know my reputation and your right. reputation and credibility in today's counts. Okay, so I've got that you don't know me. You don't know me, you know my name, but you don't know me. I've also made it clear that I want something from you. If I say to you, I need a tip. 10 bucks. But before we discuss that I want to talk to you about you're going to know straight off the bat I need 10 bucks. So I like to get it out of the way that hey, I need something from you. I've got something I want us to do. But before we get into that, and then you go into the reason why you need to keep me in the conversation because I'm here to benefit you. If you go in with that, they know you need something. Why do they know that? Because you told him quite bluntly, I need something. So there's no, there's no sitting there going, what is this guy after? I've just told you I want something. And she allows the person and relaxes easy-going, Oh, well, he wants somebody to bang on a minute. He's bringing something to me first. And that is a good one to get out of it. So that's how I enter into every conversation, whether it be dealing with the Vatican, whether it be dealing with Richard Branson, I always say hey, I need something but before we get into that, I know you're doing XYZ and go into that route. I love that I love this to me. It's a simple four-step process.Making every conversation intro sample where you're building rapport credibility, and you're building that now. Don't fall on yours. And don't, don't be scared to fall on your face say get as big of the nose as possible. But on the other hand, do your research, right everythingis important.Yeah, every client that I meet with, I have them send out a fill out a form where I get all their social media links so that when I'm sitting down with them, before I meet with them, then I know what things we have in common, what things I can support them with and what things I can't, the things that I can't support them with, I'm probably not going to bring up in our conversation, because that would be like shooting yourself in the foot. To understand who you're talking to understand where you can add value. Don't take on somebody that you can't add value to just because you want to be around them. Be clear and make connections where possible. And too many people want to be the everyman everything guy It's just not. You're not supposed to be the everything guy. You're supposed to be good at what you do. Oh for me, you know, I've got a brilliant gardener that I speak to absolutely every single week about my garden, but I'm not going to have him do my taxes. It's not a problem to turn around and think this person is good for that, but not good for that. Yeah, exactly. I love it. So what would you say? When did you because I know it's a journey. And we kind of talked about this, but what was there an exact moment where the light bulb clicked. You're like, Man, this is what I want my legacy to be.Oh, I don't know if I even know what my legacy to be. And I have heard I've heard that question come up a few times before but I'm kind of in the fight and on the journey and enjoying the view. And I haven't. I have some very basic principles. I want to be crystal clear. I want to be in possible to be misunderstood. And I don't want people to be confused. Now, if that ends up being my legacy or ends up being sketched on my tombstone, I'm happy about that. But there's a lot of people that plan for things. And for a lot of people, they need to plan. But I plan to seconds after I've jumped off the step, and I find that I only become good when I get going. And everything that I have ever started a shit. I know the first time I do anything, the first time I do an interview, the first time I did a podcast, the first time I wrote a pushbike The first time I tried to do a business meeting, every single one of them was rubbish. But you need that rubbish to be yet golden. And I have learned that so if I wake up one morning and go, I'm going to do a podcast I'll do a podcast. It'll have a crappy already. We do have a bad signal, it has a terrible microphone. Everything I try I try differently. And so legacy wise, I don't know if I found my thing yet. I just know what I found is an elf. And I'm going to promote a good friend of mine called Joe polish. He openly talks about elf businesses easy, lucrative and fun. And if what you do can be those three things, those three things, keep doing it. I have had lucrative businesses. I've had lucrative projects, but they've been stressful and they ain't been fun. They made me a lot of money and I bought a new motorbike and I've had great fun doing about great finances doing them, but they ain't been fun. So I now try to find elf projects and elf businesses. And I would say now for the past three or four years with my brand coming out of bluefish did I'm in an elf momentum at the moment and I'm enjoying it. Where is it going? I don't know. But as long as itself I'm stayingwith it. Awesome. I love that I never heard that acronym but I think I will start asking myself what in my life is falls in that category? And what is health? Yeah, that stuff that doesn't for sure.Absolutely. Joe polish. You said some very intelligent things. He's also said some very stupid things because he's a weird individual. But yeah, he's given me some incredible nuggets which have helped my life.That's awesome. So now if you were to say there was like one story or one point in time where you decided to stop caring about naysayers? What was that one, that one moment where you're like, Okay, I just, I just don't care? Or I'm doing my thing.I listened to the worst person in the world and that was myself. And I went through a very, very dark month. My life I had been I was about eight years into being the man that can about eight years, I had some of the richest clients royalty caps in the industry, you know real power players around the world as clients send me hundreds of thousands of dollars so I just a night out or weekend away. And I woke up one day and I thought to myself, Oh my god, you know, I've got to change. I don't know why, but I just thought I had to. So I took all my earrings out and I covered my tattoos by wearing long shirts and you know, I thought to myself, Oh, I have to be a bit more pronounced. Now. I have to be a little bit more British. You know, just everything about me changed. I started wearing suits now anyone that knows me knows I'm on two wheels forever. And I bought a car. I bought a vintage Ferrari to try and impress you. I bought a $50,000 odham up watch. I went to Donna Monaco, and I throw a kickoff party in my suit with my Ferrari with my watch. And I came home, and I got the photographs of that event. And I realized this was the first event in my life that I hadn't shown up to this avatar of who I wanted to be had this pretend Steve Sims. And it depressed me and I got drunk and I was drunk for about three days. I didn't know what had happened and I realized that I had listened to all my subconscious all my inadequacies, all of my self-doubt. And I had become this shield, this persona, this alters ego. And luckily it was my wife that said, Look, people don't buy the suit and the car they've been buying this you for years, they've been sending you money as this quirky guy, the comm spell and anyone that's ever got an email from me knows I can't spell but it didn't stop me write a book. Don't focus on your inadequacies. Don't focus on your weaknesses. Because you end up with incredibly focused, targeted weaknesses. They don't get any better focus on your unicorn. So I realized that I sold the car immediately. I got rid of the suits. Funnily enough, this was in the late 90s. I wanted to keep the suits because they were nice suits. I put them in my cupboard. And it was about three years ago in Los Angeles, I gave them away to goodwill, and I'd never worn them. never worn them since that day, because I felt they were toxic. No, I like putting on a nice suit. But it was never those suits. He ended up going and buying different suits. So that was my dark time when I listened to my doubt, and my inadequacies, and since then it's a case of Hey, this is me. Now I've got an I know you're in Utah, but as far as La is concerned, it's a bit chilly and I've got off No shirt on, but there's a black t-shirt underneath and that's where I'm showing up as me every single day. If you don't like it, we can part ways and we'll all be fine but I am never going to use a single second of effort to be somebody I'm notso that was my tongue fineyeah i think that's often the hardest person to get hundred silence right you can get to the point where you tell everybody else to go screw themselves but being able to tell yourself to go screw yourself as you talk and lean into your uncertainties lean into your your your fears and you say look, I'm going for it regardless that sometimes it's the hardest thing to master as far as like financially going from the different areas. I mean, going from a bar bouncer having lost your job in different areas. How did you spend, how did you make that transition from from employment into employer or entrepreneur financially because I mean, you alluded to this to at the beginning where you're rich, you're broke, you're rich, you're broke, you're rich, broke, broke, broke, broke, broke rich. Like I understand that happens. And I think that's one of the bigger fears of people who are thinking about making the jump. And so how did you level that? How do you handle it with your wife? I don't know if you have kids, but like, how did you make that? an okay thing for them.I have to stop my bank account from becoming my barometer to react. And it took many years, but the thing that would happen was I would have a ton of cash in the bank, and I'd be like, oh, I don't need a try. I got loads of money. And the money goes quickly, especially when you've got a nice house and you know, you got payments and I do have kids, I have private schooling and before you know it that starts whittling down fast. And then you go crap, I got no money, and then you go and get into stressful deals and projects that you shouldn't have got into but you have done now because of the checkbook. So you're going from candlelight, you know, fire to beach fire to the beach. And it's, it's bad. And as I say, I was using my bank account to dictate me. And it was the tail that wags the dog. The smartest thing that happened to me was when I suddenly started realizing that I was pathetic at certain things, and an entrepreneur wants to be great at everything. The Smart entrepreneur realizes, you know, we're not, we're great at one or two things, but the rest of it, we may be adequate, or maybe really bad at, okay. So as an entrepreneur, I realized that my wife was detail-oriented, she would come to me and she'd be like, Well, look, I've looked at the spreadsheet, and I'm like, Well, I don't want to look at spreadsheets was the bottom line. Because that's how I vision things. So then we realized that I can steer the car, you know, I can be the big powerful engine that can make it go fast. But I need other people to help me. I need a good set of tires, I need a good set of brakes. I need a good steamer, you know, and I suddenly started finding those people. And I can go, Hey, we need to send this person a great brochure. Get someone to design the brochure, hey, record what you think will be great. And then get someone to write the copy to translate your vision into what someone else can meet. So, Claire, my wife became good at managing and handling me. And she was like, what, okay, and so what we came up with, we came up with the 10 grand credit card. Okay, which started in my late 30s, maybe 39. Oh, yeah, realtor. I hadn't quite hit 40 at the time. But she said, okay, you're gonna have three credit cards, because no matter where you travel in the world, Sometimes, you know, something can happen to a credit card, and it screws and or, you know, they try to send you a verification code. But of course, you're in a foreign country, so you're not getting it, you know. So we have three credit cards. And she said each one of those credit cards has got 10 grand because no matter where you are on a planet, if you've got 10 grand, you can get a couple of hotel nights and you can get a flight out of it. Or you can pay a hospital bill, you know, 10 grand is a great instant support number. Okay, so she said you got three credit cards for 10 grand,you add a bank account, and she kicked me out of the bank account, I could not go and see how much money I had in there. Now, this is what happens. You stop reacting to your tail. You start looking at someone and going okay, is this a project I want to accept? Is this a client I want to be doing and in focusing on the client and not focusing on the checkbook. You get to accept deals that make sense and don't motivate your bottom line. You start we at you reacting with your stomach in your head and not with your with the fear of how much money's in the bank. You take better deals. And when you take those better deals, you start solving the problems that the client has. And then he starts reaffirming the knock-on effect by stop looking at the bank account was monumental to me. And my wife would just say to me, oh, how's it going? What's your pipeline? Like? And she would talk to me in my language, you know, are you busy at the moment? Well, things are starting to get you to get a bit quiet. Oh, well, maybe there are some opportunities for you to use that time, which was code for the bank account that needs replenishing. But she wouldn't tell me that because then I don't get the wrong kind of deals. So a good entrepreneur needs good support around them. If you are good at designing things but crapper doing invoices and the first time I realized how bad I was at doing an invoice was when I undercharged someone by 10 grand. And I had to pay 10 grand for that trip. Okay, now, do I go to the client and go, Oh, I made a mistake? No, I just paid 10 grand to learn the course, that I should never do invoicing again. And that was the last time I ever did an invoice. I've never done an invoice soon. I have no idea how to get into QuickBooks. I still don't know the potent passcode to get into my bank account. I don't need to it's not what I specialize that it's not my unicorn.Oh, that's so cool. I've talked to one other person who was very similar. He did door to door sales. And he just said Look, when when I decided that I want to stop looking at my bank account and just as long as I'm making more transactions or whatever, I'm helping more people than everybody else. I know I'm making more than anybody else. And that's got to be enough. So Yeah, there's value in that for sure. So how could we if we wanted to get connected with you, or if we had a business that we want to do to help us with? How would we get in touch with you? How do we get in touch with your, your, your book? Your Sam, sorry, your sim distillery, how do we get in touch with some of these tools to help usgrow? What we did an online course that should give you the basics called Simmons distillery.com. There's one aim in Sims. Sims distillery.com is my 16 part course that hopefully will help you get the first steps if you don't want to jump into their bluefish in the art of making things happen, should give you permission to fail and dream bigger. If you want to get hold of me. I'm not hard. I'm at Steve de sims.com. But you can also find me on Instagram, Facebook, all of these places. We've even got a free Facebook community called an entrepreneur's advantage with Steve Sims. So there are loads of ways you can reach out to me if you feel as though you want me to answer help with your company. That's nice. But I would suggest you go through those other ways. First you look at the book, do that do your homework first, you may find by doing that, you actually discover other questions that you would have come up with other you come up with, you wouldn't come up with a view to jumped into me straight away, and I want you to be as productive, productive and as powerful as possible. So it's usually best to get the book, get the seems to Sylvie? And then can I get used to my mentality, you may find, I'm not your best choice, I may not be the best person and only you are going to decide that but you're not going to know they should go through the first steps.That is so true. I'm redoing a training system for a lot of my business partners and our leaders. We're talking about what should be in there. It's like it's all in there. If they come and ask me a question before they've done their research or something and I don't even know what they don't know. But I do know what I've already put out there so they haven't taken it down. of the free content that's already there. I like there's not a lot we can do for them. And so I love that you said it that way. Agree, go do those, those things that he's already prepared for you and if you like him, then reach out and get and get to know him a little bit better. So we're at the pretty much at the end here, but I have two more sections here. So the last one is a legacy on rap. Sorry, the first one is a legacy on rapid-fire. So I'm gonna ask you five questions, looking for one sentence answers to go through these and just kind of fast, fast fast. Are you ready for this?I'm ready.Okay. So what do you believe is holding you back from reaching the next level of your legacy today?dream bigger, but I never want to stop dreaming people hold themselves by not dreaming big enough. And as far as I'm concerned, the bigger the dream, the bigger the achievement.Agree. Awesome. So what next one is what is the hardest thing you've ever accomplished?What the story I told you getting over me You can be your biggest advocate you can be your biggest success your biggest asset but sometimes you can be your, your largest devil and your biggest delta. So try and kick that little monkey off your shoulder.Awesome. And then what do you think your greatest success to this point in your life has been?No carry? I have no care about you laughing at me when I fall over. Just stick around to see me get up again.Amen to that. And what would you say is one secret the wave has contributed most to your success.My dad is probably one of the biggest on educated men on the planet. big thick Irish bricklayer fella. And I remember as a kid, he put his hand on my shoulder one day, for no reason wasn't even looking at me. We were just walking down the street. And he said to me, son, no one ever drowned by falling in the water. They drowned by staying there. Now at the age of 14, I thought I'd swallow the fortune cookie or something I couldn't understand where the bloody hell this came from. But you know that is often stuck with me and now and then I fall over quite often and I go, right. It's my decision whether when I stay here and drown, or I get up so I would give him that credit.Awesome. And what are two or three books that you'd recommend to the fuel your legacy audienceblue fishing, the art of making things happen by me Steve Sims obvious one, Dr. Zeus because I find that they got a lot of stuff in there that people don't realize how powerful anything by Jay Abraham because all of his methodology and style, critique sales techniques from the 80s are actually more powerful and impactful today. And if I can give you the fourth one, anything that allows you to dream, anything that's kind of like science fiction, espionage, spy novels, john Grisham, anything that makes you kind of dream in your head That's good because the difference between us an AI is AI can't dream, create an action act, it can only deliver what you asked for. So start meeting things that make you dream and take you to a world beyond your imagination.That's so interesting. I've never heard anybody put it that way, the difference between us and AI because that's a, if you don't follow the technology that's coming up quick, big difference, like AI is going to be able to replace a large percentage of what humans are currently doing. And the question is, but what do we do with all that free time as you're right asked you an It looks like you have a little bit of free time. What are you going to do with that? And that's a real question to be asked. Millions of people are being put out of jobs daily, across the world because of artificial intelligence or some form of robotics. And if you're not thinking how can I then go create more value for the world and give back then you're going to be sitting there doing nothing? pretty quick.A great, greatyeah. So here's the last one. Question. It's my favorite question. I excited to hear your answer. I don't know what it's going to be. But we're going to pretend that you've died that you're dead. Okay. 210 But okay, no, no, it's 200 years from now, six generations from now. So your great, great, great, great, great-grandchildren are sitting around a table, and you have the opportunity to kind of listen in to the conversation that they're having about you, your life and your legacy. What would you want your great great great, great-grandchildren to be saying about you? 200 years from now.He lived by his standards and not others.Simple as that simple as that.And it doesn't need to be any more complicated. I love it. Thank you so much for your time, Steve. I'm just grateful and honored to have you here on the show. And if there's ever anything I can return the favor to you. I'd love to do so. Thanks. And love to if you ever back in Utah. I love to meet up with you.Hold to a panel. Thank you.Yep, no problem. We'll catch you guys next time on fuel your legacy.Thanks for joining us. What you heard today resonates with you please like, comment and share on social media tag me and if you do give me a shout out I'll give you a shout out on the next episode. Thanks to all those who've left a review. It helps spread the message of what it takes to build a legacy that lasts and we'll catch you next time on fuel your legacy.Connect more with your host Samuel Knickerbocker at:https://www.facebook.com/ssknickerbocker/?ref=profile_intro_cardhttps://www.instagram.com/ssknickerbocker/https://howmoneyworks.com/samuelknickerbockerIf this resonates with you and you would like to learn more please LIKE, COMMENT, & SHARE————————————————————————————————————Click The Link Bellow To Join My Legacy Builders Mastermindhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/254031831967014/Click here to check out my webinar as well!————————————————————————————————————Want to regain your financial confidence and begin building your legacy?In this ebook you will learn:- The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy- Clarify you “why”- Create Daily Action Steps To Launch ForwardWant Sam’s FREE E-BOOK?Claim your access here! >>> Fuel Your Legacy: The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy————————————————————————————————————

After an 11 month hiatus, Mark returns. Who needs guests? Not Bill Burr or Greg Proops. Mark joins the flexible format brigade. And brings you up to speed. Where'd the beard go? What's Lt. Frank up to? How's Venka? What is Heroteer? Mark delivers answers. Recorded at Mark's humble abode, Hollywood, CA. Recorded, mixed & mastered by Mark Roman.

Michael Myers sits down to tell us his story of starting Distillery 291. He had a booming photography career, but while living in NY during the events of 9/11, it made him want something else. He found out early on that he liked whiskey, so like most of us who start off with something new, he researched and used his skills from a past farm life to make it a reality. Michael actually built his very first still on a tight budget and ended up using some of his photography equipment to create the still. From these humble beginnings, his whiskey has gone off to win many different awards and they are now expanding even further, creating a whiskey that is Aspen stave finished and authentic to Colorado. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Maker's Mark Solar Panels: https://www.wlky.com/article/makers-mark-now-powering-rickhouses-with-help-of-500-solar-panels/31017612 Beverage Daily Article: https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2020/02/17/Alcohol-s-three-tier-system-slows-ecommerce-and-dates-the-industry Why Does Whiskey Taste Like Whiskey: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-does-whiskey-taste-like-whiskey-an-excerpt-from-lew-brysons-new-book-whiskey-master-class Rate Our Podcast: https://ratethispodcast.com/bourbon This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about blended whiskey. When were you first introduced to bourbon? Where are you from? How long where you in Savannah? Let's talk about your background in photography. Which more enjoyable, photography or whiskey making? Tell us about your experience with 9/11. How were your first attempts at making whiskey? Did you lean on any outside consultants? Tell us about building and designing your still. How much did it cost to build your still? What was your end goal when you first started? Tell us about your barrels. What was going through your mind when you first started? Did your photography career fund the whiskey business? Tell us about your awards. What is the operation like today? Was it daunting coming to Kentucky with your bourbon? Did you experience growing pains? What do you want our listeners to leave with about 291? 0:00 To be the best you have to learn from the best local in the surrounding regions are home to many of the most storied companies and innovative startups in the distilled spirits industry. And there's no better place to learn the business of the distilled spirits industry. Then from a university located in its Epicenter, the University of Louisville has partnered with industry experts to offer the distilled spirits business certificate, a six course program designed to accelerate your success in this booming industry. Oh, it's all online. get signed up to make your next career move at U of l.me slash bourbon pursuit. 0:36 Michael Myers Michael Michael Myers got it. 0:40 We didn't want to say anything but I'm sure you get all the time people like Michael Myers especially down like Halloween coming up and studly yo Yeah, never 0:48 your 0:50 damn life. 0:52 And my first name is Jason. Believe it or not, he shouldn't be though. Oh my gosh. 1:07 This is Episode 242 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny. And if you're ready for your bourbon whiskey and overall spirits news, it's about time we get to it. According to the US securities regulation charges in its 2014 and 2015 fiscal years biagio North America pressure distributors to buy excess inventory in order to meet internal sales targets in the face of declining markets, and now is hit with a $5 million dollar fine from the SEC, johnnie Walker's owner Diaz you failed to disclose the excess stocks to investors creating a misleading impression that the audio and the audio North America were able to achieve their sales targets through normal customer man according to the SEC. Now without admitting or denying the SEC findings, Dr. Gao has agreed to pay a $5 million penalty and agreed to cease and desist from any further 2:00 violations. The SEC has accepted the offer. Lexapro distillers is paying homage to the past by relaunching an old bourbon. The Davis county Kentucky straight bourbon is being released in three varieties. The Nashville is a mix of weeded bourbon and rye mash Bill said it liver a sweet and spicy taste. There will be the original a Cabernet Sauvignon finish in a French oak finish. Davis county distilling company was the first to release the bourbon, and the brand dates back to 1874 and was one of the few distilleries to survive prohibition. 2:34 Maker's Mark has added more than 500 solar panels to its facility. In Loretto to power its Rick houses, and it's done through a partnership with the Kentucky utilities company. The 560 panels will provide energy for security, lighting, barrel elevators and office spaces in the brick houses. However, I'm curious if there's actually office space at a brick house. If it's true, I don't know if it's a good or bad thing because 3:00 You've been sequestered to sitting in a wreck house every day might get a little bit lonely, almost like Milton then as red stapler in the basement from the office space. But I guess it smells like bourbon, which is better than a basement so you got that going for you. All right, well back to the topic. The new solar array first began producing power for Maker's Mark in early February, and is expected to produce about 268,000 kilowatt hours per year. e commerce analytics company profit, tiro said that online alcohol sales could explode from anywhere to seven to $15 billion in the next few years, noting that e commerce is making an impact on just about every industry imaginable. And alcohol looks to be the next sector to be disrupted by the continued shift to digital. However, as we've been saying on this podcast time and time again, the three tier system is slowing this down and is dating the industry and an article by beverage daily calm. It looks at platforms such as drizzly go, puff and thirsty 4:00 brands can catch on and partner. It also goes into detail on how these brands can differentiate themselves and not be paired next to other brands that could be either cheaper or delivered in a shorter time period. You can read more with the link to beverage daily calm in our show notes. Last week at the inaugural us distilled spirits conference, Mitch McConnell offered no relief with the ongoing tariff dispute for American and foreign whiskey. The European Union is a key market export for Kentucky bourbon, and it imposed 25% tariffs on us whiskey in 2018. In response to us tariffs that Trump enacted on imported steel and aluminum. Now, late last year, the US left a 25% tariff on imports of single malt Irish and Scotch whisky liquors, and that also affected global companies like brown Forman and biagio that import these products to the US. Now I common excuses that the US whiskey industry has just been collateral damage in Trump's trade disputes. 5:00 And Chris Walker, President and CEO of the spirits council said that the industry hasn't lost hope and that the levees will be removed. And now there's even more coverage that the chief executives of the Scotch whisky Association and the distilled spirits Council of the United States are calling on the UK and US governments to urgently find a negotiated solution to unrelated trade disputes and remove all terrorists on distilled spirits. Have you ever wondered, why does whiskey taste like whiskey? Well, when we nose and taste bourbon, we get leather, caramel dried fruits, but it was never made with any of that. And a new article by Lou Bryson at The Daily Beast, he explores every step of the process and how flavors are derived with grains like rye and their spice in his character. Why using the same Nashville at two different distilleries will result in two different very whiskies. And then there's 5:55 an organic compound formed by bacteria that's found in Water Agency 6:00 And is responsible for that musty or earthy smell like some lake water, but can also be found in whiskey too. There's more talk about stills barrels, proofing and more and you can read all this with a link to the Daily Beast in our show notes. For today's podcast, Michael Myers tells a story of the starting distillery to 91 he had a career in photography in the events of 911 made him want to do something else. So like anything most of us want to venture into you research and research and research. Michael actually built his very first still on a tight budget ended up even using some his photography equipment in the still itself. The distillery has grown but that original still is used as as doubler today, from these humble beginnings, his whiskey has gone off to win many different awards, and now they're expanding into more and more states. The distillery is expanding itself and he's creating a whiskey that is asked when the state finished that he feels his 7:00 authentic to Colorado. We're currently doing our 2020 bourbon pursuit audience survey. So we want to know more about you, our listeners. So if you've got 30 seconds to spare, please visit bourbon pursuit.com slash 2020 survey. It really it only takes 30 seconds. We appreciate the time. Are it Showtime, here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char 7:28 it's Joe from barrel bourbon. In 2013. I launched barrel craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day My team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle a cast strength. Find out more at barrel bourbon calm. 7:44 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. As I put the bullseye upon my lips for the first time, I could feel it tingling upon the bottom of my lip and the top. Once it hit my tongue it just overwhelm my palate with flavor 8:00 drenching down the bottom of my jaw line, tingling the sides of my tongue tingling the top of my palate. Just feel warming me all the way down. And you know what? It's not a bourbon. And it's not a rye. It's a blend of straights. It's a blend of straight rye whiskey and straight bourbon and it is motherfucking delicious. Right now I'm putting it as one of my contenders for whiskies of the year. You can see my full review on it on my YouTube page. But this, this whiskey and all the barrel releases and all these other blends that we have seen come out in recent years from from high West and barrel and numerous other you know, blending houses that are really doing a great job right now. They really are shaking up our traditions in American whiskey. You see the term blend used to be a really dirty word and American whiskey 9:00 ski and it all goes back to the 1800s when Canadian blenders were infiltrating the straight whiskey scene and undercutting the Kentucky bourbon distillers and putting their Canadian blends on the market and you know what consumers really, really liked them. And so it begins there and the Canadian whiskey distillers were trying to block the bottle and Bond Act of 1897. Of course, they were unsuccessful. The Canadian whiskey distillers also rise up again after prohibition, and they actually ironically tried to put bottled and bond on their label. Now, what's interesting is that the US government ended up terrifying their their whiskey to block them from using bottled and bond so that basically stopped them from using bottled and bond. But at that same time, American distillers did not have a lot of stocks from their left over from prohibition. So they actually had to use blends and 10:00 cells to get their brands out onto the market. And so you would see neutral grain spirit being added to, say, a four year old bourbon that had just been distilled a couple of few years ago. And that really kind of like people were like, ah, I really like blends, but this is all I got. And the straight bourbon distillers were just kind of reluctantly doing it, but they had to and so you couple that what they would later call rocket whiskey with the the the blended whiskey from from Canada, and you had distillers in the 1950s not even allowing the the word blend being used in their distilling house, and that's where the words mingle and marrying or born. And for every decade after that the Kentucky distillers especially, would call out blend as a dirty word and would not let people say putting two barrels to 11:00 Together was blending that was mingling. And so that's where those words come from is because people were never wanted to use the word blend in Kentucky distilleries. Now fast forward to 2020. You have a lot of new blood in the industry, a lot of new blood that does not care about old terms or old ways. They just want to put out great whiskey. And I got to tell you some of the more exciting whiskies that I have tasted in the past five years, our blends of straight whiskies. They are absolutely fantastic. But you will never, ever hear me say those words around the great Jimmy Russell. If you ask him, blend is still a dirty word. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, make sure you're checking out my new podcast the Fred Minix show where I interview musicians 12:00 And I pair whiskeys to their palate. I'm having a blast and coming up I've got an American Idol winner on the show. Until next week cheers 12:12 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Ryan here in our official recording studio, which is deemed Kenny's basement. Yes, yeah. Where we shoot everything. Whiskey quickies the podcast unit Hey but you know we started get everything together we got lights we got cameras we got everything happened in here so it's fun for especially people that are either watching on YouTube or on Facebook or something like that and you want to get something different than just something audio only at least get a fancy background. Yeah, unfortunately for our guests, when they show up, they're like, damn it what you're in a house, like a recording studio. are gonna be we'll get another one of these days. One of these days. One of these days we'll get there you know, as much cooler sailors whiskey, I'm sure But well, we'll get the studio there one of these days. We'll get some sound panels and everything like that. That makes us feel a little bit more legit 13:00 But you know, today I'm really excited about our guests because this is a distillery that, you know, we've heard about, you know, we've read about it before and bourbon and banter and everything like that. He's even been a guest with Fred MiniK on his show on Youtube before and so now something in common. You know, Fred's the mutual connection here right here we go and then and so being able to have him on the show kind of talk about their stories stuff like that is you know, pretty exciting because anybody that isn't watching on TV he brought to find whiskeys for us to sit on here. So we got their their bourbon and their rye, which you might be hearing us sipping up throughout the show. Yes, and it's very highly decorated bottle. So tons of awards. And I just had it for the first time and I can see why. For a distiller this young, it seems like some pretty good, juicy got here. So I'm excited to hear the story and dive into how it got to this ball. 13:53 See, they put stickers on Oh, yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and introduce our guest. So today we have Michael Myers. 14:00 Michael is the founding distiller and CEO of distillery to 91 out of Colorado Springs. So Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Glad to be here. Well, good. So you know, before we, you know, talk about the whiskey and the distillery let's kind of let's rewind the hands of time here kind of talk about your first introduction to bourbon or spirits or anything like that. Yeah, so the it's funny. The first time I drank whiskey that I remember was, we always have those stories, too. Yeah, I 14:31 was I was 18 and turn just turned 18 that day and went to a local bar with friend He must have been in Canada or something. 14:41 Now in Georgia, 14:43 close 18 That all changed but I went to bar and wanted to drink a whiskey and ordered Yukon jack, which was sort of the whiskey at the time. Sweet and now it's really not I mean, I think it's GNS what's 15:00 Some natural flavorings and stuff, but you would know better now I know konjac is a new one on me. It's from Canada. 15:08 That you said Yeah. And it's Yeah, it's a liquid. Gotcha now and so yeah with my friend Todd Hawkins and we had a lot of fun and drank you know, a shot of it and 15:23 and then probably the next time I mean, I was drinking jack jack daniels, as well later and then college. One of my worst experiences was super bowl and I had bought some really nice Crown Royal, moving up in the world and 15:40 and drank not a fifth but maybe 375 of that throughout the Super Bowl and just got so sick and actually woke up the next morning was like, I love whiskey. I am going to the bar and forcing myself to drink more whiskey so that I don't have that issue. 16:00 Where I can't smell that ever again. And so I did that day I got up that afternoon went to the bar and that first shot of whiskey was rough. can imagine you can even like try to like get a bloody or bloody married Atlanta your way in here though. No hair, the dog, and it was great. And now I make it. Yeah, that's one hell of a story. I know. That's like the most badass story I've ever heard. There's no way that I mean, I remember back in college and stuff like that. There was no way I get up after feeling hungover after a bad night and be like, I'm going for a gator, right? Like coconut water. I'm like, What can I do to feel better? I mean, back then everybody was drinking like Pedialyte, they would actually go and buy like, I'm guilty of that. There you go. It doesn't work. I think my times way before video. 16:48 Were salty. I was in Savannah, Georgia. They just kept drinking. 16:53 I was like, yeah, definitely different time we're searching for pedia lightnings like it just bring it up for us. 17:00 right now. 17:02 So let's kind of talk about more of like your history and stuff like that. So you were in Savannah, how long were you in Savannah? So I was in Savannah for school. I'm born and raised Georgia. With my summers spent in California. My mom lived out there since I was six. And so I went to about two different Yeah, ends of the spectrum, Georgia and California really different because we raised Tennessee walking horses, so and in middle school, we had 11 acres inside the perimeter and then moved out to Alpharetta with 70 acres and another 80 so we had horses and cows and all kinds of stuff. And I was given a camera when I was 15. My mom gave it to me and picked it up and never looked back. And so I went to Savannah College of Art and Design, believe it or not, that's where 291 comes from for me. So I my dorm room was 291 and after I moved in there I went school and learned in history. 18:00 class that the very first photo gallery ever was gallery 291 was in New York in 1907. And so I'm like, meant to be a photographer. And that's where 291 came from, which is my brand name. And that just those three numbers just have just stuck with you for forever. Yeah, as a I was a fashion beauty photographer for over 27 years and like for models are young ones. Yeah, very cool. Yeah. Mainly makeup beauty stuff, like Revlon. Clairol? Yeah, I still only know this because my wife's a cosmetology 18:33 Tiffany and company but I did shoot for this old house and Forbes FBI and what kind of cameras us Michael Jordan a Canon What do you know I shot with a Pentax six, seven, and it's a it's it's looks like a 18:49 35 millimeter that's on steroids. And so the negative is six millimeters by seven. So that's that's pretty big, almost playing card but a little smaller than that. 19:00 You guys are speaking a different language to me. I've tried, like, I've dabbled in a lot of things in photography. It was like one of them and it lasted for like two months. So I like it though. But it's collecting dust. Nice. Now just like iPhone, you know, I bought it right. That's everybody asked, Do you still do that? And I'm like, I have an iPhone. I mean, it's, it's in my pocket. It's all branded. I mean, it's, it looks like a phone. I'll show it to you afterwards. Yeah, that's what the sake is. Most people. You know, I remember when I had my first kid and, and they said, like, Oh, you've got to go out. You've got to buy an awesome camera. And, you know, here's your here's your cannons, your DSLRs. And I'm like, 19:37 I don't know if I'm going to be lugging this thing around with me everywhere we go. I just don't know if I'm gonna do it. But I remember I did look into it. I just never pulled the trigger on it. Yeah, yeah. good reason. Yeah. 19:47 I mean, if you're going to shoot, you might need it a better one. But family stuff. It's always been best. The camera in your hand or the camera in your pocket, because you'll get the image. It doesn't matter if it's hype. 20:00 quality or not putting you at least have the moment. Yeah. And that's what matters. I'm probably not gonna make it poster size when I was shooting. I'd be so focused on like getting a shot that I would forget the moment, you know, not being in the moment. That's why I was like, just doing my iPhone, but right. We're not here talking about cameras. No, no, but I want to hear a little bit more about the photography and like, because that seems like it was a pretty mean 20 years as you said that you were doing that right. 27 Yeah, yeah, I mean, so, so kind of talk about you've got to have some, at least some pretty funny stories or something good from those days, too. So I shot Angelina Jolie when she was 15. I have that picture on my 14 year old was. 20:39 And when she was 16. I shot her a couple of times. Some of my last clients were the Olsen twins. shot down. 20:46 Shot. 20:48 Like geeking out right now. She's like an Olsen twins. Yeah, so I had a really great career. It was still a struggle. It was you know, a lot of work and living in New York. 21:00 Not easy raising a family there and you know being a freelancer so as about to say so like the the dynamic of photography and freelancing versus making whiskey, like what Be honest what's more enjoyable now 21:16 making whiskey and how do you merge the tape? 21:20 I built my still out of photograph your plates. Okay. So a photograph of your plate is a flat copper plate you chemically edge an image in, you put ink on the plate, you put a piece of paper with it, run it through a press and you get an ink photograph. So I took those seven copper plates of different images from my life and water jet cut them took them and rolled them through a roller so that curve and then had a guy TIG weld it together. And that was that was my original still 45 gallon still. I had a 21:53 cask for the thump kegger doubler and I built a stripping still out of a 22:00 55 gallon gallon stainless drum. So you built this all yourself? I did. How do you do that? Like YouTube or something? Yes. I grew up on a farm I can build. Okay. I'm a redneck. Yeah. 22:15 And yeah, I mean, my story's intertwined with New York and 911 and then building this still. And the process of distillation reminds me the dark room. So that's where 291 came from, for the brand name for me, but I built that still and that still is the thump keg to my 300 gallons still that I built had built in Colorado Springs. So these these guys department of defense contractors, and they built things like titanium ball valve that's like 10 inches across four new killer sub, you know, valves and and nickel plate press not plate but nickel press rings for proposal. 23:00 tubes. And they're like, we like whiskey. Do you need a bigger still? And I'm like, Yeah, great. Sharon so gave them my plans and they built 300 gallons still that looks identical to mine. And the funny thing was, there's a little bit of pressure in a still like five pounds, but not much, but they were engineers. I went to art school. And they didn't believe me that it didn't need to be that thick. So they built it out of plate copper. So it is thick and heavy, but it's beautiful. It works really well too. So kind of talk about that, because you kind of intrigued me right there because I remember reading a little bit something about 911 and that happening and you couldn't get back to your apartment or something like that. And you kind of just had to move the family for a little bit kind of talk about that time. Yeah, so 911 we live three blocks from the World Trade Center. We lived on the corner of Warren and West Side Highway. And I was on granted and Dwayne with my son on my shoulders when the first plane flew over my older son 24:00 So they were four and five, my oldest son was in, in our building in ps 89, which is on the second floor, we lived on the 25th floor, and we had just dropped him off. My wife and I and my son walk into his class or his school, and that's when the first plane flew over. And so yeah, so everything that day was a crazy day, needless to say, spent the night on North more. 24:27 And then with seven families and then couldn't get back in our apartment, went to Long Island. Long story short, moved to Colorado for about nine months. I commuted move back to New York, was there a couple of years and it wasn't good for my family. So I said we'd move back you're still doing photography at this time? Yeah, I got to do in photography. And so we moved back and I commuted another four years full time, and then was just trying to figure out something else to do and still, like wrote some TV, worked on some movie stuff. 25:00 And just nothing really panning out. And I shot a vanity fair job in New York in August 2010 and on the way home read an article about the guy that created Sailor Jerry and Hendrix shin and he, you know, created an idea and branded it and all that somebody else made the juice form and I came back thinking wow, I could brand a whiskey you know, and and talk to a friend of mine, Mike Bristol, Bristol brewing. And he said, get your license and I'll try and help and so and then somebody else said why don't you try and make it because you can always hire somebody if you can't. And I'm like, they make it in the woods of Georgia. It can't be that hard. 25:41 And so I decided to build my still moved into 300 square feet. Got my DSP distilled spirit plant permit in April with I got it in four weeks from when I applied, which is amazing time. That's right takes us for 26:00 TTP doesn't move that fast anymore. And so I was in 300 square feet. I could make 60 gallons a month of Finnish whiskey that was working my butt off that was you know, 17 hour days seven days a week. Wow for talking about those like first attempts at making whiskey what's it like what do you do going into like are you reading a manual? Or how like are you just like going off like I'll travel knowledge and what will you do that? Yeah, he's got a he's got a landline to somebody with some some overalls on be like, No, you gotta tweak. You gotta move this. Yeah, so I'd never brewed beer. And I'd never distilled until I started this in my first distillation true. Finished distillation was September 11 2011. 26:42 My still the guy, TIG welding it together finished it after it took him all summer to get started on it. finished it September 9, and so I waited for that to remake that anniversary. And yeah, during that time, I read YouTube blogged everything. I 27:00 Heard about how you make whiskey. And and it is funny. The one thing that I do say is I watched popcorn Sutton's documentary, the original one. And in there, there's a point where he talks about taking, he takes a stick and the worms there. And he puts the stick in the end of it and lets it balance. And he says, if the whiskey is thicker than the stick coming off, it's fighting whiskey. So from that I learned you need to run it really slow to make really good whiskey. And there's other things that I learned books, I read things, and I love to cook and I love the dark room. And so I really feel that was like my home brewing experience. Putting those two things together to get to make whiskey. So are there any other like outsiders or consultants that you leaned on to kind of pick their brains or kind of guide you along? Or is it totally just you? Totally me? That's cool. How did you know you weren't gonna like blow up the place? Like, you know, just, I don't know, you know, there's a lot of pressure on 28:00 Nice other like five pounds pressure but yeah run high. That seems like a lot of back and happen. I knew that it was an open system so as long as you don't plug the system you're good and and as long as you keep cooling the steam coming off the still, you're okay but if that water stops 28:21 that can be a problem. Yeah, there was one point where that happened for me and it was a mess and 28:29 I think there was a room full of 160 proof steam all wrapped around me and I was just like, okay, let's calm down. slow this down. Yeah, and I just I read a lot I paid attention to what how it was supposed to work and and did it that way. The funny thing is, is I steam heated everything. So I put a steam coil in my mash tun that also was my stripping still with a different top on it and a column and then my finish still had a steam code. 29:00 illinit and I bought a home steam unit for steam shower. And I first time I hit the button that came on, it was all hooked up. I'd like to say we're like close from 29:11 anywhere. Close. That's funny. 29:15 And so I hit the button, went to take notes for a little bit about an hour later the day turned off. And I'm like, What? walked over there looked at everything. It was heat hot and push the button and came back on. I'm like, great, literally an hour later cut off again. And I was like, Damn, it's a home steam unit. It's got an automatic off on it. So literally for the next two and a half years. 29:42 Every run from 29:45 finish run stripping to mashing then I had to reset that button every 45 minutes. Gosh, that's awesome. It sounds terrible. 29:56 So I'd run home cooked dinner. That's like the great bootstrapping story. 30:00 Like somebody just like going in and just giving it their all and like figuring it out. I don't know. It's pretty cool. That's right. And I'd go home cooked dinner, come back, push the button, go home eat dinner, go to the liquor store and make a sale come back push the button go back to another store to settle alarm on your phone. 30:18 Reset, Steve, I know 45 minutes pretty good now. 30:24 Somebody goes up how the wind take their 45 minutes. Don't worry, I got that. I got 30:30 I mean, that's that's it isn't it is impressive story of being able to go and learn and actually build it yourself. You know, it's like, it's like most of the people that you know, you say like, Oh, you wanna write a book on something? Or if you're if you want to learn something, right, write the book on it or do whatever it is to actually learn how to do it from the inside out. And, you know, you could go to moonshine you and you can learn and look and be able to like look at it but mean you you really like dope the pieces that actually made this all together. I did and moonshine you wasn't around at that time. 31:00 And there wasn't a lot It was mainly have gone if it was already just done it yourself. 31:06 That's an interesting question. I probably wouldn't have. So when I went to buy a still, that's why I built my own Vendome had a 55 gallon or 50 gallons still, that was like $50,000 I'm like, I don't have that money. I've never made this stuff. How What? So I, 31:25 I decided to build my own. So that probably the same with 31:30 moonshine, you probably would have been expensive. I wasn't sure. You know. Yeah. So just, you know, just wing it. Looking at your best, right, I guess then talk a little bit more about because I think one thing that's interesting here was you're talking about your copper plates that you use that you you took and then if I understood correctly, you said you rolled it out thin enough that you could then kind of form it and build your still so didn't roll it out. It was fairly thin copper. It is then copper. I mean, it's it's rigid. 32:00 But you roll it just to curve it to put the curve in it. So 32:05 that's why you roll it not not squeezing the copper out. But the etchings are still on the still you can see them when you go and take a tour. It's pretty amazing. But yeah, I just 32:19 researched it. Not everybody can take weld copper, and I found a man that was an amazing welder. Another God guy that could could take weld copper and did really nice job with it. So and talk about the design a little because I know we've had we've had Vendome on the show before. And you know, they they talk about all the crazy designs and you go You mean you go to anywhere like you see the different steel boxes, you see the different ways that people are putting it I mean, it could be a spatial issue could be a bunch of different ways. But you know, unless you're doing a copper pot still everybody more it's a column still but everybody's is a little bit different, a little bit unique. So kind of talk about how you came to the design of what yours was. 33:00 Going to be so mine's a copper pot still, there's no plates in it at all. The only sort of plate is the thumb keg. So that kind of works as a what plates do and still. And that design I found on the web. Somebody had built one and I was like, that's really cool. And I designed it more how I needed it. But the the design of the still, there's a secret behind that. I figured it out. 33:29 I'm a visual person and I just I found a few stills that I liked and came up with a concept and idea and how, what the sizes should be and drew it out. So I had in high school I had 11 quarters of mechanical drafting. So I'm not great at it now because it's that's a long time ago, but I can draw that like AutoCAD or before was AutoCAD. Like pencil and paper. 33:58 T square Yeah. 34:00 Exactly with a maybe a compass compass. Exactly. tractor. Exactly. And that's what I did. I drew it out, I bought a drawing board, which is a piece of soft wood, thick, you know board and I bought paper and drew it out. I still have those drawings of it. I actually drew a limbic still first. And it's a really beautiful drawing, but I never went that direction. I went with the pot still. So how about you said vinden was 50,000 How much was your homemade $500? Wow. The cost savings? Yeah. All the parts I you know, I sourced all of it. That's not with my time in it or anything like that. But sure, yeah. Where'd you get all the parts like Craigslist or? Pretty much? No. Granger, actually. Okay. 34:46 A lot of parts on there. They have more stuff than you'll ever know. Yeah. You're like, do you have this and like, yeah, and I'm like, What? You'll have that too. So yeah. Craigslist would be a better story though. I know. 34:59 In search of 35:01 Such of a doubler misconnection where's my doubler? Yeah, so I guess um, you know so we're talking right now about making your still and making white dog and and kind of talk about what was that next progression of it so he's shown us the the picture of it right now so yeah, that's it is it's an exact replica of your of your original. It's really cool. Oh, that's awesome. That's really cool. So making white dog here at the very beginning so were you were you thinking like okay like I'm gonna make whiskey I'm gonna make bourbon or was it just like, what was the kind of like your end goal that you had in mind. So I set out to 91 Colorado whiskey, I set out to make a Western whiskey whiskey that you would walk into a bar and a Western asked for, you know, whiskey, walk up, the bartender finds a Western whiskey for you. So mine is a Colorado whiskey and it's big, bold and beautiful, like the state of Colorado. Okay, so 35:58 and they slam the bottle down. It'd be too 36:00 91 and you know, get to drink it and you have a deal afterwards. Yeah, exactly. And so I love rye whiskey before I made my own Thomas handy was my favorite. So both these my rye and my bourbon are my original recipes. The bourbon is changed slightly. It's 80% corn 19% modify 1% malt barley. It started out at 20 mile rye, and that's because Mike Bristol had a bag of corn 50 pound bag of corn, and it was over a weekend I wanted mashin. So I went to the homebrew shop and bought I was looking for a ride. They only had Ryan mall. I'm like great, I need them all to convert. So I did that mashed in and ran that. I ran that on a very small I stripped it and then ran it on a very small Olympic still. And that was truly my first distillation ever. And then the next distillation and I have all these notes written down with the dates on it and everything. 37:00 The next Captain's log. Yeah. Yeah, the ttv you have to a lot, you know, and I didn't I didn't have any money. I wasn't doing any, you know, computer stuff. So I was handwriting notes in the notebook. And they're funny to go through because I talked about, you know what I'm doing distillation, but I also talked about my son's running cross country that day, or an event I was going to or what was going on in my life throughout these days. So it's kind of cool to look back. It's all chicken scratch scribbled scratched out spellings wrong, you know, all that good stuff we need to do today. Like why the fuck is this? 37:40 What the hell is wrong with this mash? Yeah. Or, Oh, that smells like throw up. That is not good. Yeah. But that is gold because you can always look back on that and be like, this is where I started and always kind of bring you back to that. That is awesome. Yeah. And we go back to it actually. There's another mash in there. That is a 38:00 Special release comes out, usually in October. It's called bad guy. And that was my third recipe. And we we went back a couple of years ago because the newer bad guy wasn't tasting the same as the old bad guy and so we went back and read the recipe in the directions and 38:21 bad guy came from so I did as a single barrel for restaurant and I had done this mash to try I hadn't experimented so I was going to experiment and bad guys a four grain we did bourbon and when it came up still I was like, that is really good white dog. I mean, was sweet, amazing. And I put it in a in a tank and was waiting and was supposed to have already mashed in for this other one for the restaurant. And I got behind and I needed the cash and so I was like, you know I got the that one in the in the tank over there. I'll just 39:00 Cell it so I called him to come hammer the bong it's done, put it in there hammered the button. He was talking to his son on the phone who was like four. He's like, what should I call it? And his son goes bad guy. 39:12 And I was like, Oh, damn, and 39:16 so he he year later, when the whiskey was coming out of the barrel, I'm like, what are we gonna name it? And he goes, I don't know. And I'm and I had written on the barrel bad guy, so I didn't forget. And I'm like, you gotta call it bad guy. We got to call it bad guy. And he's like, No, I don't know. And then I talked him into it finally. And so that's why it's bad guy bourbon to 91 bad guy bourbon, very cool store grand weeded bourbon, you have a lot of cool stories. 39:46 Just sit back and listen, not just keep talking. I'll shut up. 39:50 I mean, kind of talk about that a little bit as as you were, you know, how much do you producing and what kind of you know at that time like what kind of barrels you putting them in like a 40:00 Talk about that process to 40:05 with the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that is in finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown bourbon company have teamed up with rack house whiskey club rack house whiskey club is a whiskey a month club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merch 41:00 side. And as always with this membership shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon by signing up at rack house whiskey club.com use code pursuit for $25 off your first box 41:15 How much do you producing and what kind of you know at that time like what kind of barrels you putting them in like kind of talk about that process too. So the barrel mill, I found them online somehow and they were fairly new out of Avon, Minnesota. And so I called them they would FedEx me a barrel. So I'm like that works. You know, everybody else wants to sell you a palette 41:38 palette. 41:40 There's a funny story about palette too. And so I just bought a barrel and would fill it up and and I had a few barrels in that 300 square foot space. And I'd harvest it and hand bottle and label it and go out and sell it. So the very beginning here kind of talk about what's your because I remember you said you were doing would you say 42:00 50 6060 gallons in a week, right is my month, a month, a month. And that took that took, you know, six. So my fermentation tanks were 55 gallon Pepsi, you know, plastic drums with the top cut off. And so it would take, I'd mashin six. So I could do two matches in a day. So that's three days, I could strip two in a day. So that's three days of stripping, and it would yield about 3540 gallons of low wines and at 35% or so and then I'd finish on it and it would I end up with like 15 gallons. And so in a you know, in a month period, I had 60 gallons to put in barrels. So I mean talk about it, like as we talked to, we talked a big boys right and they're pumping out that in 20 minutes, right? I mean, 42:54 yeah. So kind of talk about you know, like, you know, where where did you kind of see yourself 43:00 Like, were you like, this is awesome. Like, this is fun. I'm having fun with this, or you like I'm in, I'm in over my head, like kind of talk about what was going through your mind at that time. It was amazing. So when it first came out still and I tasted it, and I had a friend that was a bartender, phenomenal bartender, Nate Windham, and he would taste it. And he's like, Damn, that's really good white dog. And so he had a couple of cocktails that he was using some white dog that was on the, on the shelf at the time. And he just started trading out with my white dog and my fresh. And I always say if, if it came off, and it had been a grind to figure out the recipe, and it wasn't that good coming off, it would have been, it would have been a lot harder. But when it was that good, and Nate was already making cocktails with it, it was like, all right, this is working, and I could taste it and tell. And so but I mean, the whole process, you know, you've got to make those tale cuts and that's, that's the art of distillation. And I didn't know anything and so 44:00 That was made me nervous, you know, what are you going to do how you're going to do this? And so 44:06 in my processes of photographers solving problems, you know, the, the head cut is easy, it's a percentage, or you can taste the difference really quickly. It also drops improved quite a bit at head cut, and then you got ethanol coming off and then tail it's like where do you stop as a distiller the art of distilling, where do you stop and so when it started dropping and proof, I decided to take you know, a quart mason jar and and collect it every 10 proof and then go back, you know, I had the main amount of ethanol but here I had tails coming off. And I just decided started tasting them and deciding where, how much I would put back into, you know, the ethanol that had already come off. 44:56 And so that's that's how I figured out my cut. 45:00 Yeah, and we got to make sure you pick up the cuts cuz well that should make you go blind if you get it wrong. That's the that's the head cut. There you go okay. acetone, methanol and all that that comes off first loser, high, high alcohols that have a low boiling point. So were you like cash flow in this with your photographer photography? What the photographer you're you've only had one port right now get it I'll spit it out. Get it out your photography, photography career was it paying for your gosh what can I say that photography career? I just did it 45:38 photogra man 45:41 was your photography career was this kind of fuel in this baby or were you just like out on your you know on your own trying to make this work. I know my photography was not. I did do a design job for for charity. They were trying to save 46:00 The hospital from being sold to large corporation. And so they had this whole campaign they wanted. And so I designed and did commercials and did all kinds of stuff for it. So it paid me really well. So I use that money to start to 91. Gotcha. And to go back to the original distillation and all that, you know, when I started making to 91 I wanted to be Colorado and kind of branded and so it we haven't talked about that, but it's 291 Colorado bourbon or 291, Colorado rye whiskey, and it's Aspen state finished. So I take toasted pieces Aspen, pop the bung on the barrel, put the Aspen in the oak barrel, and for the last few weeks, we finish it on Aspen. admins are the trees that guys may turn yellow, but they don't lose their leaves. Is that right? No, they they lose. Okay, they've turned yellow and red. They're really beautiful. Yeah. 47:00 Why we only Aspen reference I knows we the dumbing down. Oh, yeah, yeah. So talking about City College. 47:07 So the way I figured that out was I wanted to ask been on the label I, I took some aspirin, toasted it, put it in a mason jar with some Finnish whiskey and was riding to Boulder with a friend that was about a two hour drive. And I just shook the mason jar. And when I got up to Boulder I had, you know, some of the original and then what it tasted like on Aspen and I'm like, that's good. And so that's where that came from. That's awesome. Yeah. Very cool. What's what is it about Aspen that's different from Oak that kind of gives it some different. It's there. So for me it it pushes common notes to maple and it adds a little spice to it and a little smoke. This rye has a beautiful color on it by the way too. I need to try the wrap the porcelain arriving on the nose on the rise really good. I love it. So it's one on 1.7 48:00 proof. 48:01 The bourbon was 100 proof 48:04 and how long you, you agencies and what type and how big of the containers and everything like that. Let's get let's get into it for that was all there. It's all secret. Yep. Oh gosh, man. Guess we had to go on a tour to find out. 48:21 So it's American oak barrels deep charred. We age a year to two years. Right now, you know the ride that you're talking about in 2018 one world's best ride from whisky magazine. It also won America's best in 2016 from World whiskey magazine. And then that's an interesting thing that in that 300 square foot space, my barrel number two of this rye got 94 points from Jim Murray's whiskey Bible. Congratulation. Thank you and and we have seven liquid gold from Jim Murray. 49:00 six different recipes. So it's been so Jim Murray's a fan of you. Yeah, I'm a fan of his He's great. His tasting notes are amazing. I don't know if you've ever read any we haven't had him on the show yet. We'll get him on we'll get him there probably much more elaborate than ours. I'm like tastes like smores are 49:19 or always try relating to our breakfast cereal you know like cocoa Chris for Count chocula I don't notice that you do you do a lot of cereals Don't you know I get a lot of cereal like when you're a kid. You get a lot of those cereal notes with it with the milk one of our Bourbons has a it's a char high rye. It has a cherry fund up 49:41 to it. It says it says he's that one now. You know fun dips that powdery my kids so it's like dry. And so the high proof of it make its cherry but it dries out just like fund up it's really funny. So yeah, you can find my my distill. 50:00 Eric jet had one whiskey and he's like, you know, it's like that. That dusty old Poncho and team was like, What are you talking about? And what were you on at that time? It's not your grandma's attic you know there is a note sometimes that dryness Yeah, you know that musty old basement. musty old isn't good but yeah dusties not so bad. Because it's the dryness part have tasted like, like you talked about cherry funded like grape Kool aids like, you know, the manufacturer grape flavors, you know, like, I get, like, come out a lot. Yeah, a lot. Talk about today's operation. So, so you're you're you're the founding distiller sounds like you're not distilling anymore, but kind of talk a little bit more about, you know, what the size of the operation is the people if you're still doing you know, 60 gallons in a month or if you're if you're if you progress so kind of talk about that. Yeah, I wouldn't be here if I 50:55 guess I don't like only bottles. 50:59 Well, that was interesting. 51:00 Same thing was like 2016 when I sent whiskey magazine, they needed two bottles and I had to pay money and and I was like, I don't have that much whiskey. So that's why it took me a while to start putting in awards. But all my tanks, the 55 gallon drums, the fermentation tanks, my stripping still. I mean, yeah 55 gallon drums have all moved up to 1500 gallons, including the stripping still. I showed you that picture has the 300 gallon finished still in it. All the whiskey still goes across the original still as the thump keg. we distill twice a week, and we're producing about 240 finished gallons a week right now. We're working on some barrel financing to add the first of the year that will move up to producing five days a week. And we are right now. I've been in 7500 Square Feet for six years. Wow. 52:00 That's hard to believe. 52:02 And we are moving within a year we will be in a campus with 28,000 square feet, four different buildings. One will be a distillation building the other one will be fermentation, barrel storage and then tasting room. So you just you're looking at it like this. Let's keep investing into this growing and bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah, I mean, we did 20 609 liter cases last year. Sold and and we've produced the year before 20 609 liter cases. And so we're selling everything we make. 95% of it is in Colorado. We just opened Kentucky this week. We're in 27 Kroger stores in Kentucky and it's going really well. But we could sell more if we had it and that's what we're working on. But we still the quality we are. It does not come out of the barrel until it's ready. 53:00 What's it like coming to Kentucky is it like coming to Kentucky to play basketball you know like we got faced the Wildcats when you're coming to Kentucky you don't face all the big boys environment is that daunting or you like Bring it on. 53:14 I don't know that it's daunting. The community's amazing. And that's the great thing. Everybody I meet is incredibly helpful. Even Fred MiniK he's he's the one that helped Kroger. So by introducing me to, to the buyer, and you know nothing about this rod tasted very familiar. Not had it at Fred's office. He goes, this is the next big distillery 53:40 because the smoking is that or reminds me of when I had it. So anyway, side note. 53:46 Yeah, so it's been amazing. I mean, at the one of the awards thing, Jeff Barnett, one master distiller jack daniels, Master distiller and I went up to talk 54:00 Cuz you want to say hello, you know, right oh my god, and he was the nicest man and we got talking, and he's from Jackson, Tennessee where my brother lives that's a surgeon. And we had a family farm in Shelbyville, which is which flat Creek, Tennessee, which was seven miles from jack daniels, seven miles to deckle. So I told him that and we really hit it off. And then my brother was doing a charity didn't know I had met Jeff, but knew he was from Jackson and reached out to him to do a tasting of the charity. And because he was from Jackson, he did it. And my brother called me and said, You know, that's who's coming. And I was like, Oh, I just met him. And he's like, wow. And so I went with my brother's friend, our partner that had a twin prop plane, and we flew from Jackson to tullahoma and picked up Jeff, and literally when I walked off the plane, he was walking up on the tarmac, and he's like, hey, Michael, how's it going? And I mean, I hadn't met him once in person, but he knew 55:00 who I was and was, it was amazing and we've become friends. I texted him all the time. I'm going to go see him tomorrow. The first time I went to jack, you know, shortly after that charity, he said, Come down, I'll show you around and and he put me in his personal truck. And he said, What do you want to see? He said, whatever you want to see, I'll show you anything. And that's amazing. And there's gonna be respect because Jeff's had everything he's awesome as to but you gotta check company like jack daniels get every resource imaginable to you whereas you kind of had no resources and made it work. So there's got to be something that you both can learn from each other. I yes. And he's alluded to that and is very respectful that I make a Colorado whiskey and and you know, that's the thing. I love Kentucky bourbon, I love Tennessee whiskey. I love all kinds of scotch Irish whiskey, but I'm not looking to make a Kentucky bourbon and Colorado. My bourbon my whiskey, my rye are to be done. 56:00 Different big bold, beautiful of my brand there's a few names but one's rugged refined rebellious, we also hard made the Colorado way. And then another tagline is 56:15 write it like you stole it, drink it like you own it. Nice like it. So, you know that's what I set out to do this and and it's been amazing 56:25 i mean i think it's it's had a pretty warm reception right and congratulations for coming to Kentucky you know this is it's a it's a big step this nationals feet. Definitely, definitely. And not only that is you know, talking to you about the progression of where it is or where it was to what it is today. It's everything comes with with growing pains too, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So kind of talk about at least Did you have a specific time of growing here that you're like, Okay, like, I wish was just me and the 60 gallons. 56:57 So, the one thing about being a photographer 57:00 Consistently you have to build teams of people especially doing fashion. So hair makeup, you know stylist, model, all that kind of stuff location that was helpful for me in in growing this and finding people that could help me grow it. So I have a team of about 13 people right now. It's an amazing team they do phenomenal work. But yeah, there were there were times and there's still times you know, I'm bootstrapping it. So there's tight times with money there's tight times with barrels not being ordered. panic, you know, bottle panic, you know things like that when I first started that was something I wanted to mention earlier about a palette to get not this bottle but my original bottle which is similar this but this one came along when I could buy 30,000 or promise I'd buy 30 Yeah, promise but this one I could buy a pallet of and my mom had given me a cooler and at some point and enjoy 58:00 Grant is an ounce of gold. And thank you for explaining that because I was about to say I have no idea what you're talking Yeah, it's a South African coin. And so I was making whiskey in that 300 gallon I needed a bottle they were they give me a better price if I bought a pallet or or to buy the bottle I had to buy a pallet and gold was up expensive than and I literally took that Cougar and cashed it in and bought a pallet of bottles 58:28 and was able to put them in that 300 square foot space I built I built shelves and made it where you know they weren't really in the way and it was kind of crazy but so there are growing pains. I mean you know i the most nervous I've been that I can remember is working on this move for this. You know 20,000 square feet. It's It's big. We We won't renovate it and build it out beautiful with for production line facility. 59:00 We're going to move in with what we have now and grow it like I did from the 300 to the 7500 square foot that worked really well. But we have a our model is a ramp. I mean, it's a it's a steep curve. And so we have a lot to get done in the next four years with making whiskey and, you know, there there are growing pains. It is not easy. There hasn't been a day where I was like, Oh my god, I'm not going to the distillery I give up. I'm done from day one to now. There's never that's never crossed my mind. Yeah, that's awesome. At least that means you're loving it. Yeah, I guess it. You don't have to think of the Olsen twins and they still need me. Right? 59:43 Yeah, that's a funny thing. I broke out a box of Polaroids. So, back in the day before digital, you were doing light test and stuff you used a Polaroid back on the camera. So you would take the picture of strobes go off and you pull the Polaroid Wait a minute, and then 1:00:00 like pushing that button every 40 and you peel it and you'd look at light so I have I kept most of those Polaroids I've got boxes of them and I opened one up the other day and there's some just really beautiful pictures in it showed it to a friend and they were like oh my god you got to start shooting again I'm like I don't know that that's happening but I did reach out to a hairdresser friend and a couple of them at the time with the Polaroids and posted on Instagram with it and hadn't talked to them in years 10 years and they're like what's up and it was really great makes me want to maybe try one day and who knows but not union at the distillery was like oh here's a great you know all your photography client car I got a photography clients and you know, bring them to your distillery like wonder now party this party There we go. But these you can get bottle shots done on the cheap, right you can do those. That's the funny thing. I don't shoot my bottle. Really you don't don't okay jars while you're here. 1:01:00 I shoot on with the iPhone for like in situation but to set them up and shoot them. I mean I can do it no problem but I'm a little too close to the product and also it's a different frame of mind and to get in that frame of mind it would take me a few days or week I'm working with the bottles and stuff to get the light and and it's just easier to for me to pick somebody and go I like his pictures and I can direct what I want from there and so that Yeah, I you know you coming from a photography background and you know, we're all kind of like doing a lot of stuff with whiskey and and I remember I talked to somebody about doing bottle photography and I'm like you charge what like to take a picture of bottle i mean it's it's something that I had no idea that even existed before then so it's a it's it's a really cool that you kind of have you can blend a lot of these worlds together and you know how to direct and stuff like that because I'd be like, I don't know a river in the background like you tell me what looks cool. 1:02:00 Yeah, and I have a business partner in New York. Or we were in a retouching company, Russ gun lack. And he, he still retouches. He's an amazing retoucher. And so I sent him stuff all the time. I mean, funny things, but I send him bottle shots and, and I can direct him and I can I can take a bottle, you know, if it was shot in the same light and have him put it like five bottles in one picture very easily and stuff like that. So I understand how to do that. So that's where I, you know, I can direct it and get it done on the cheap. I mean, everybody else that would cost them a ton of money. 1:02:41 But But I did, we were at a tasting and there was an airplane behind me and had a callsign number on the side of it. It's old, you know, World War Two type plane with that block number. And I took a iPhone picture of it and send it to Russ text it to him and said can you change that to 291 1:03:00 Literally 30 minutes later it came back to me on my phone and it was perfect. I'm like Yep, there you go awesome and posted it and people like out to 91 and I also did it this summer on a bowl. The brand on a bull somebody It was like 301 and I asked him to do 299 on it and they're like, I didn't see that bowl with that brand. 1:03:21 It's really funny. That's good to know people I guess. So I guess kind of last question before we start wrapping this up is you know, you've you said 95% in Colorado, you're growing to Kentucky I'm sure that you've got plans to even go beyond their kind of talk about you know, one last thing that you want to kind of leave listeners with as they are looking at another or walk in the store. They see your bottle and then maybe they hear this like what's one thing you want to leave them with? I want them to enjoy my whiskey. There's the funny thing I I drink my whiskey neat. It's rare. I drink it on the rocks, but I I also in the summer, or when I feel like it I drink my bourbon with 1:04:00 Mountain Dew. I drink my ride with lemonade and my only person I know it does as my dad. It makes it it's amazing drink and it's a nice drink summer drink. Yeah, and I want to drink bourbon. I also drink. I don't drink vodka Bloody Marys. I drink rye Bloody Marys. And those are phenomenal. But I want somebody to try my whiskey. I wanted to take them back to Western days and enjoy it and it it's an unapologetic whiskey. It's it's a big bold whiskey, and 1:04:33 I'm really proud of it. The other thing that we didn't talk about is the cage that's on there. So when I was young, there was a the cork and cage cage holds the cork and when I was young, I'd watch TBS in the morning and saturday morning cartoons and then if it rained, the later it got old movies Come on. And there was an old movie where they were transporting nitroglycerin in a wagon, and they had wired all the bottles in 1:05:00 So it wouldn't bounce. And when I started making high proof whiskey, I'm like, we got to wire the cork on. And so that's where that cage comes from. Gotcha. Gotcha. Now we know there's a story to everything. Really. There is my watch. Yeah. My watch is my dad's watch. And every time I shake it down, it reminds me of home. Yeah, go. Cool. Very cool. Well, Michael, thank you again for coming over here coming on the show. And of course, sharing your whiskey with us. I think it's an incredible story of what you've built and the team that's building this and you know, the direction it's going as well. I think everybody's pretty excited for really the future of what this is going to entail for you. Thank you. Same here, Kenny and Ryan. very appreciated to be on the show. And yeah, that's, you know, we have experimental batch called the E. We love to experiment. I love making my whiskey. I love selling it. I love giving it away to people to try it. tastings and even people I meet give them a bottle. 1:06:00 Cuz they'll share it. And I love that. So I really appreciate today. Thank you guys. Absolutely Yeah, no, thank you for coming. It was a true inspiration. I mean, most companies we have on air even if they're new they go out and get big time investments or you know, get a lot of cash flow to back them up and like to hear somebody just go source parts from Craigslist, not kidding. But, uh, just, you know, just wanting to do something and find a way to like, make it happen is like, It's so inspiring to me. I think it's a very cool story and I'm excited for the brand. It's, gosh, the rise awesome. I love the really good things like thanks so much. But uh, yeah, it's, um, it was a pleasure talking to you and hearing all your stories, for sure. I'd be a part of it. Absolutely. And so make sure you follow distiller to 91 on all the social medias. give a shout out as well as your address where people can go and visit 1647 South 200 Street, Colorado Springs, Colorado. And o

We go WILD on the champion of the peanut and influential African American inventor George Washington Carver! Where'd he come from, did he invent anything afterall, and why is Chrissy changing his carnivore status!

Have you ever noticed a place name on your Google Maps or GPS, and thought, "I wonder what that is?" That's what happened to South Milwaukee resident Mary Holtz, when she was driving near Bay View. "My husband and I were interested in something we spotted on our navigation screen called the Town of Lake," Holtz told WUWM’s Bubbler Talk . "We were curious about its history. Does it actually exist anywhere other than this digital navigation? What happened to it? Where'd it come from? Where'd it go?" Mary and I took a drive, in search of the so-called Town of Lake. The name pops up west of Bay View. It hovers over Bolivar Avenue, a few blocks east of Howell Avenue. But there is no town there. Rather, it's part of the city of Milwaukee. To learn the story behind the town that isn’t, we turned to local historian Ron Winkler. He literally wrote the book on the Town of Lake. "The Town of Lake is a neighborhood on the south side of the city of Milwaukee," Ron says. "And it goes by three names:

Founder of Phiture Andy Carvell joins us to muse on his early career in mobile gaming development, his pivot toward marketing tech, and what it takes to consult on tech stacks, app store optimization and growth-minded strategy. *Hosted by Dave Goldstein and PJ Bruno LIVE at LTR 2019*     TRANSCRIPT: [0:00:17] PJ Bruno: Welcome back to Braze for Impact, your Martech industry discuss digest, and we're back again with another episode from our humanity series. Today we got with us one of our very good friends, close partner, Andy Carvell, partner and co-founder at Phiture. Andy, thanks for being here.   [0:00:34] Andy Carvell: Thanks for having me.   [0:00:35] PJ Bruno: Absolutely man. And also to my right. Dave, the golden boy, Goldstein, head of Global Solutions Alliances. Dave, this has been a long time coming,   [0:00:44] Dave Goldstein: Long-time coming, so happy to be here.   [0:00:47] PJ Bruno: Andy, for those people out there who don't know what Phiture is, why don't you just give us a little summation there.   [0:00:52] Andy Carvell: Yeah, sure. We're a mobile growth consultancy based out of Berlin. We're a team of 30 mobile growth experts, and we help companies with mobile apps to get a grip on some of their mobile growth challenges. Quite specifically, that would be things like app store optimization and data-driven experimentation. With CRM.   [0:01:10] PJ Bruno: It sounds like the need there is probably just growing bigger and bigger every year. Right?   [0:01:14] Andy Carvell: There's plenty of demand. Yeah, it's pretty healthy.   [0:01:16] Dave Goldstein: I'm actually just curious Andy, cause obviously it's incredible what you've done building out Mobilegrowthstack.com you're clearly like an incredible industry leader and the thought leadership that you guys put out is unparalleled, and it's free for everybody. Even your competition can go and read all that content, which is just unbelievable that you actually put all that-   [0:01:37] PJ Bruno: That's confidence right there.   [0:01:37] Dave Goldstein: That is confidence. That's exactly what that is, and it's fantastic. But, can you tell us a little bit about your journey? Your background, how did you get to start this consultancy and develop all of this thought leadership? Where'd you start, and how'd you get to kind of where you are today?   [0:01:51] Andy Carvell: Yeah, sure. And thanks for the kind words, Dave. When I was growing up, all I wanted to do was make games. My father brought a home computer for me and my brother when we were pretty young. I was like five years old or something. And he taught us how to program it. My father was like one of the first generation of computer programmers, so I was kind of fortunate enough that I got taught how to code, long time ago, and all I wanted to do was make games. Just was really into computers, really into games. Went to university, did a bachelor's degree in computer science, and after I graduated, I just fully expected to go into the console games industry and make PlayStation games, and I've done a PlayStation game for my final year project. It was straight forward career path as far as I was concerned, but actually ended up working for Nokia who were hiring for games programmers to make games on mobile phones, which were kind of a new thing at that point. I didn't have a mobile phone when I joined Nokia.   [0:02:39] Dave Goldstein: Wow. Do you remember what year that was?   [0:02:41] Andy Carvell: Oh, that was 1999.   [0:02:42] Dave Goldstein: Oh wow. Okay. I probably had the StarTAC, the Motorola StarTAC flip phone at that point.   [0:02:48] PJ Bruno: The project, the PS game that you created, what was it? What was the concept of that?   [0:02:54] Andy Carvell: I made a puzzle game. So it was something... There was a TV show in the UK called Blockbusters, which kind of gave me the idea of... You have to basically create a path like a cross, not exactly a chessboard, but something similar. And the idea was... With this puzzle game, you kind of had this character, and you would run around a board flipping over tiles, and they would flip over in different colors. You had to build a path of the same color from one end to the other.   [0:03:21] PJ Bruno: Very cool.   [0:03:21] Andy Carvell: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I joined Nokia back in 1999, making embedded games. I made a game called Space Impact, which is one of the first like side-scrolling shoot'em up arcade games for a mobile phone. And I just really fell in love with mobile and the technology, the disruptivity of it. And also actually for making games on really resource constrained devices. It was an interesting optimization challenge, and I stayed in mobile games for about 10 years, eventually kind of decided to go do something new, so I went to business school, got my MBA and there is where I kind of specialized in marketing and marketing strategy and it was kind of after that when I came to Berlin and joined SoundCloud, I was kind of able to marry those kind of two disciplines of sort of technical background and all the sort of new marketing stuff I'd learned and apply that at SoundCloud, helping them to kind of transition from being a web-first company to a mobile-first company and that's kind of where these two things kind of came together.   [0:04:21] PJ Bruno: Is that when you moved to Berlin, or you were already there?   [0:04:24] Andy Carvell: Yeah, actually, I moved to Berlin to do a 10-week project to finish my MBA. I had to write a dissertation based on some research that I'd done in industry, and I did that with an ad tech company called the SponsorPay now called Fyber. So I wrote my dissertation at Fyber but decided, actually, I wasn't super keen on staying in ad tech, so I looked around what else was happening in Berlin and yeah, SoundCloud were hiring for somebody with a... With mobile experience. So it was kind of like perfect fit really.   [0:04:51] Dave Goldstein: It's amazing. And when I think about some of the savviest digital marketers out there, what comes to mind is folks in gaming. I mean, it's unbelievable how tight they are around marketing processes and conversions, right? It seems like that industry was the first to lock it down, and it's like if you knew that industry you, would do well anywhere, right? You could take that to Legacy Enterprise and blow people's minds.   [0:05:19] Andy Carvell: The games folks are always kind of ahead of the game I'd say like a couple of years ahead. In terms of a lot of the best practice, you see usually happening first in games. Yeah.   [0:05:28] PJ Bruno: Do you miss gaming?   [0:05:29] Andy Carvell: I don't miss it as much as I thought I would when I kind of like made the switch. Actually, I really thought that I was going to go back into gaming industry after business school, but just didn't... It didn't turn out that way.   [0:05:39] PJ Bruno: That's life, isn't it?   [0:05:40] Dave Goldstein: Truly. And so as you kind of made this transition from your SoundCloud days to starting this consultancy, I imagine folks are trying to kind of capitalize on this incredible knowledge base that you've developed over the years. What are some of the challenges that, common, maybe uncommon these days, as it relates to enterprises that are in businesses of all types that are trying to figure out how to do growth cause you clearly understand it intimately?   [0:06:10] Andy Carvell: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of challenges. It's hard to generalize, I think, to a huge extent. But we definitely see a few kind of common themes with the kind of companies that are coming to Phiture and asking for our help. We see a lot of companies just sort of struggling to navigate the vendor space and the tool space and just sort of understand what is the right kind of tech stack that's going to work for them and what exactly will that enable for them and what are their options there. We see that a lot, and we also see companies, particularly on the app store optimization side, just companies either don't realize quite how complex an operation they need to really operationalize ASO at scale across like multiple geographies. And we can sort of help them first of all to understand that and help them to either build out that process in-house or we give them an outsource solution for it.   [0:06:57] PJ Bruno: So Phiture can do things like what you're just talking about at a very macro level, but you guys also can do the very tactical HTML design as well when it comes to in-app and other things. Is that right?   [0:07:10] Andy Carvell: Yeah, that's right. We've built out actually a bunch of cool stuff on top of the Braze platform. For example, you have the in-app template technology that we've built. Yeah, we're doing some pretty cool stuff there. I think it's really important for me personally that our company is not just telling people like, "Oh, you can do this or you know, this, this, this would be a good way to do, you know, do something and," and building out a strategy with them. We definitely do the strategic work, but I think it's really important to me that we stay really current, and we stay at the cutting edge of what we're doing, and we really want to be like leading the way with the implementation side of things as well. I think it's important that... Otherwise, we get stale.   [0:07:44] PJ Bruno: Right. And it's all conjecture until you actually put something together and have something to show. Right?   [0:07:49] Andy Carvell: Yeah. Right. And be able to drive measurable impact with it. We're all about measuring things and real impact.   [0:07:55] Dave Goldstein: It's incredible the level of sophistication and complexity, right? When you think about... To your point, right? People are trying to choose the right technology to do the job. That in itself, I mean, seems like a full-time job. Just to evaluate all the technologies out there and align it with what it is that you're trying to do as a business. On top of that, you've got organizational structure challenges, right? Where people are just... They're not organized. You could give them the best toolset in the world. You could put in the best plumbing, and they're just not organized to use it effectively. Right?   [0:08:27] Andy Carvell: I'd say that's a really big one actually. In fact, that's probably the most common thing that we're helping companies with. It's not really the tool setup. It's more about building good processes around whatever tool stack they're using. We can work with companies with very varied tool stacks. But typically their biggest challenge is operationalizing the actual kind of growth process, and that's really comes down to having a really strong experimental process kind of rigid instrumentation and sort of dedication to actually measuring impact properly and then getting into a good strong experimental cadence. And that's the kind of stuff that actually is our bread and butter that we help companies with.   [0:09:08] Dave Goldstein: We're always talking about nailing the fundamentals and ensuring that... I mean, you've got to get those down first, right? Because so many people get caught up in the hype of new technologies. Speaking of which, there is a lot of kind of quote cool technology out there, voice AI, bots. I'm trying to think of all the different things that I've seen and heard as of late. Right? And there have been some, what I consider to be pretty interesting implementations of them. Is there anything in particular that you're really excited about to see the evolution of and can actually envision how it might fit into the future of growth for some of the organizations that you help?   [0:09:47] Andy Carvell: So, I mean, I think the technologies that I'm super excited about... I'm a bit of a sci-fi nerd, so I tend to look a little bit further ahead. I'm excited for quantum computing kind of brain-computer interfaces. This kind of stuff, which will for sure have implications for growth, but it's probably a little further out. So if I would kind of bring it back a few years, I think I'm kind of interested to see how mobile evolves as... I think the screen will kind of eventually disappear and we'll just get like retina projection and things like that. I think that the device will kind of evaporate, but the mobile computing capability will definitely stay with us. I think wearable devices, conversational interfaces, I think we're seeing the kind of early stage of that with devices like Alexa and Google Home and Chatbots and things like that. But I think conversational interfaces will... You'll have a way to go as well. And that, of course, then merges with AI and yeah, a bunch of fun stuff.   [0:10:42] PJ Bruno: Retinal interference.   [0:10:45] Dave Goldstein: It's not long until we're living in the world of Minority Report.   [0:10:49] PJ Bruno: Have you seen these tech tattoos yet? Have you seen these?   [0:10:52] Andy Carvell: I haven't seen the tech tattoos.   [0:10:53] PJ Bruno: It's basically an ink that is a conductor with some sort of circuit in there, and basically, I guess the thinking is, in the future, instead of getting your regular physical checkup, this is some sort of circuit that actually can check your vitals regularly and keep you kind of not just doing it annually, but day to day, kind of know where you're at with physical health.   [0:11:17] Dave Goldstein: Wow. Where do I sign up?   [0:11:19] Andy Carvell: I think personalization in the healthcare sphere is also super interesting. Especially when you get into gene editing and-   [0:11:24] PJ Bruno: Oh, man. Yeah. I mean not just wearables, but I mean, where does it end, right? I mean robotics in general, adding to your body. When does it, when is it no longer you?   [0:11:34] Dave Goldstein: Well, technically, it is no longer you, right? We are bionic. We carry around this supercomputer in our pocket, and many people have it attached to their wrist. Right? In essence, we've got the knowledge of all mankind right here with us.   [0:11:48] PJ Bruno: I'm a little bit of a sci-fi nerd as well, and I had the conversation with my roommate about where does humanity end if like Oh like years from now, great, you got a bionic arm, you had an accident. Like you know what? I want to add some stuff as well, and I just kept pushing the limit. I was like, all right, if everything's a robot, but your head is human, are you still human? So yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I'm still me, and I just kind of kept pushing it like, all right, your consciousness is downloaded into a hard drive. It's replicated. Is that still you? No. I don't think that's me anymore. I love pondering those things.   [0:12:18] Dave Goldstein: I've long thought we're just the caterpillar waiting for our robot overlords to blossom into the beautiful butterflies-   [0:12:25] PJ Bruno: Does that scare you at all? AI at all?   [0:12:28] Andy Carvell: Yeah, it does actually. One of my favorite books is Neuromancer by William Gibson, which is really all about a rogue AI, which is trying to kind of augment itself and join with it's other... It has like...But there are basically two AIs based in different places in the world, and they're trying to kind of connect a network together because then they'll basically become this like super-entity-   [0:12:50] PJ Bruno: Disguised, as an ecosystem, takes over the world.   [0:12:53] Andy Carvell: Yeah, I mean, it's a great story. It's a great book, but it's... I think we've seen many times over the last like kind of 10, 20 years that technology takes on interesting... Has interesting effects on the world, which are not entirely predictable. I don't think anyone would have necessarily predicted Cambridge Analytica or the Facebook stuff. And the ways that social media is being kind of subverted. And I think things like AI will be no different. And it's also already being heavily kind of weaponized and invested in, as the new frontier in warfare. So yeah, I think it's going to be pretty scary. But also there'll be some really cool applications for it. So...   [0:13:34] PJ Bruno: Yes. Well, I also... I got to get around to promoting your podcast, Andy, as a fellow podcaster. It's very clear that you have a passion for what you do. And I fully believe that those who have a strong passion for their careers are the ones that are going to succeed the most. And so from all the great stuff that you guys are doing outcomes, Mobile Growth Nightmares and I just love to hear about what brought that about. And I mean, clearly, it's something that you care about, and Dave mentioned you guys give away a lot of your content for free. That feels like a cause that feels like a mission. That's something that can actually kind of stand the test of time. So I'd love to hear about it.   [0:14:13] Andy Carvell: Sure. Yeah. So Mobile Growth Nightmares... We'll also to say for the record; it's not a feature production. I do it with Jessica from Blinkist, which was also kind of very deliberate that... We didn't want to just do another corporate kind of podcast-   [0:14:29] PJ Bruno: Not selling something here.   [0:14:30] Andy Carvell: Exactly. It was just kind of a bit of fun. We're both kind of working in the industry. We have a pretty good network of people that we can kind of just invite on the show. We record it when we have time, which is why there's not many episodes out. It'd be like... It's kind of like best efforts kind of thing. So it's all kind of quite informal, quite casual and it's kind of a fun project, but it's a great way to connect with people in the industry and just have a chat like we're doing now. And yeah, the kind of general concept is that we talk about growth fuck-ups basically like times when people have done something which they've learned from. Which that they've made some kind of mistake and yeah. What they've learned from it, which we find is just a fun angle to take.   [0:15:13] Dave Goldstein: Do you have a favorite nightmare that you've heard or perhaps even experienced yourself? Like something in particular like, "Oh man, I clicked send to 10 million people," an oops campaign. Anything to that effect that you would share?   [0:15:28] Andy Carvell: So we actually... We had a guy called George from [Glovo 00:15:31]. We did an onstage kind of a variant of the Mobile Growth Nightmare show. It wasn't actually with me and Jessica, but we did it at our ASL conference in New York lately. And yeah, I mean basically his... I won't give too much away because it's a really fun story and I guess we might get him on the podcast at some point, but it ended up with, I think the police being involved and yeah, his boss... Emails from the boss at nine o'clock in the morning. So yeah, I think those kinds of nightmares are the best ones where he... As he pointed out after, it's like, look; this is a real nightmare. This is not the not, not an [AP] test that's gone wrong.   [0:16:10] PJ Bruno: This is a real nightmare. This is not just a growth nightmare.   [0:16:15] Andy Carvell: I think when law enforcement got involved. That's a good mobile growth nightmare.   [0:16:18] PJ Bruno: Jeez loueez. Can't imagine.   [0:16:19] Dave Goldstein: Unbelievable. So I suppose one of the questions I had, right? Is as folks who are looking to level up their growth game. They look to experts like you. If you can give away one actionable tidbit, one massive takeaway that someone who would be listening to this would be able to take back and ponder over and apply to perhaps level up their growth engine and their growth strategy. Anything, in particular, come to mind?   [0:16:49] Andy Carvell: So yeah, I'm not a big fan in general of sort of growth hacks or sort of specific tactics that you could apply it across the board. Because I think you want to look at sort of things specifically in terms of your situation. However, I'm going to now contradict myself and say one thing which I would pretty much always recommend, which we also don't see very often, even in pretty sophisticated setups. Often this is missing. And it'll really help any growth marketer. And that's to have a global holdout group. It's actually pretty simple, but keep a group of users back and have that holdout group kind of refreshing with new users as you get new cohorts in and basically just keep back, whether it's 1% or 5%, whatever you need to get a significant... Statistically significant result in a meaningful amount of time and have those not exposed to whatever growth experiments you're doing. And [I see this work 00:00:17:42] particularly for CRM and for folks using Braze this is really valid, but if you're doing growth work and you don't this global holdout that's just not exposed to any of the experiments that you're running, you won't be able to prove the ROI and the overall impact of your initiatives. So you'd think as any growth marketer or growth professional in the industry, I'd really recommend you do this because it's really going to help you when you're going for promotion next year to be able to actually demonstrate the value that you've actually delivered for the business and the only way you can really do that, particularly with something like CRM, where you have loads of different campaigns going on with the different touchpoints, is to look at the aggregate impact by having a holdout group.   [0:18:21] PJ Bruno: And I guess the whole point of that is complete randomness. Just take a bunch or-   [0:18:26] Andy Carvell: Yeah, absolutely. It should be just a random sample. Yep.   [0:18:29] PJ Bruno: There you go. Holdout groups, control groups, do it.   [0:18:31] Dave Goldstein: As always, an open book sharing of information. It's just incredible. Thank you so much for all you do for our industry.   [0:18:38] Andy Carvell: Thanks for having me on the podcast, and thanks for your kind words.   [0:18:41] PJ Bruno: Yeah. Thanks, Andy, and thanks Dave, for joining us and thank you all at home. Take care. [0:18:46]

We've already counted down the top 10 horror films of 2019, now your co-hosts Rob Galluzzo, Rebekah McKendry, Elric Kane, and Ryan Turek are looking back at the last decade and picking their top 10 personal favorites. This last 10 years saw the rise of so many distinct horror voices: Jordan Peele, Robert Eggers, Ari Aster; films like IT FOLLOWS, GET OUT, the EVIL DEAD remake, South Korean classics like TRAIN TO BUSAN. Where'd they all land on the Shock Waves crews lists? Tune in to find out!

Sandra Samoska tells us how she dealt with her dogs having a romantic interlude that went on too long. She is loving her T-shirt that says "Sorry I'm late, I didn't want to come." She shares with a a crazy coincidence and the best advice she's ever been given.  Find Sandra on her blog, Outnumbered by Sandra Samoska. Follow Sandra on her Facebook page, Outnumbered by Sandra Samoska, Instagram @outnumberedbysandrasamoska, and Twitter @outnumbrd4kids. Subscribe to the show so you don't miss a laugh! Follow Fancy Free on Instagram, & Facebook. Request to join the Fancy Free Facebook group and go answer the question of the week!   Transcript: Joanne Jarrett: You are listening to the Fancy Free Podcast, where my girlfriends and I tell our most embarrassing, funny stories so that we all feel less alone in our imperfections. I'm Joanne Jarrett. And today I have with me a new friend that I met through a writer's group I'm a part of on Facebook. Her name is Sandra Samoska and Sandra is a writer, blogger, wife, mom of four, and a doer of all things. So she and I have a lot in common I think. She writes about faith and family and she teaches a women's Bible study and she spends most of her time caring for her little and not so little anymore people. Sandra, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. Sandra Samoska: Oh, absolutely. Thank you for inviting me. Joanne Jarrett: Yeah, so much fun. Well, fill in the blanks. What did I miss about who you are and what you do? Sandra Samoska: I am a stay at home mom. I'm married. I have four children. I met my husband in junior high. Joanne Jarrett: What? Oh. Sandra Samoska: Is that insane, or what? Joanne Jarrett: Yes. Sandra Samoska: We went to high school together and started dating our senior year and then we ended up going to two different colleges but stuck with it, with one another and got married almost 16 years ago now. Before I had kids, I actually did have a life. I was in journalism. I did journalism for a little bit and then after I got married, we moved. I started working at a consulting company for the oil and gas industry, which that's kind of what you do in Houston is oil and gas. And then after I started having children, I decided to stay home with them and luckily I still have a position with that company as a consultant. So I still have my adult time where I can kind of use my brain for something other than kids' schedules. And then I got into writing for fun, not just for work and journalism. Back when my youngest was little, my husband finally said, "You love to write, you should do something." And I did. Joanne Jarrett: As you know, the point of this podcast is to take someone who looks like they have it completely all together from the outside and show our listeners that nobody as this fancy as they look. So we can all feel a little less alone in our imperfections. What not so fancy story do you have for us today? Sandra Samoska: I have a lot of not so fancy stories. It's kind of embarrassing, but there was one that I just, every time I think about it, it makes me laugh out loud and people actually bring it up to me sometimes when we're in casual conversation, which isn't awkward at all. So, we have dogs and I don't know if you have dogs, we're a dog family. Joanne Jarrett: We have one dog, so we have singular dog. Sandra Samoska: Just the one? Oh, I'm so jealous. Joanne Jarrett: Well I decided I might need to get her a dog and then I dog sat for two weeks for another golden doodle and they didn't do anything together. I was like, "She does not need a dog." Sandra Samoska: That's smart. You tested it out first. I love that. It's wisdom. Joanne Jarrett: It was a happy accident. But it worked out for me. So you have multiple dogs. How many and what kinds? Sandra Samoska: Currently we just have two, which is great. When this particular embarrassing thing happened though, we had three, and before that we had had four. So we're slowly moving down to a more manageable, I feel like, number. Right now we have two, they're called black mouth cur, which is a hunting dog. My husband likes to hunt. Unfortunately, he likes to go hunting without his hunting dogs, which makes me a little bit upset because I feel like that's why he got them in the first place. Sandra Samoska: About three years ago we had three dogs. We had the two we had now and one older one that my husband had gotten before we got married. And the older one, her name was Rose, she was about 50 pounds, 15 years old, and she kind of had that, I'm queen of my domain and everything I see attitude, she mostly hated everybody except for my husband. She wasn't mean, but she was just kind of like disdainful, you know? We were all just kind of existing in her space. Joanne Jarrett: Like a cat? Like kind of just, I'm too good for you standoffish? Sandra Samoska: Yeah, very much. Very much like that. But she was like getting old and she had, you know, was partially deaf and arthritis and her legs would go out from under her and we were just like, "It's okay, Rose. Just hang on." You know? So we had her and then we thought that she needed friends and so we got a second dog and his name is Davey and he's a black mouth cur and he is super sweet but very, very deeply stupid. He's just a very dumb dog. But I mean like super sweet. Sandra Samoska: Like he loves us but just not smart. And he was kind of afraid of Rose and he would like slink under the table if she looked at him. So they weren't like friends by any means, but that's okay. We loved Davey. And then we got a third dog and her name is Jill. And Jill, even though that she's the same breed as Davey, she's a lot smaller. So she's only 35 pounds. And my husband assured me when we got her, super awesome, important breed and really amazing. And wouldn't it be wonderful if we could breed her one day, which I was not a fan of, but I was like, okay. But Jill felt like she should be the queen of the house. And even though she was kind of usually content to let Rose be the puppet queen, she kind of ruled from the shadows. Sandra Samoska: So we kind of had this interesting emotional dynamic going on. Now Rose and Davey, the older one and the boy, they were both fixed, because Rose had been a rescue dog and Davey was really too dumb to breed. But Jill was not fixed because my husband and my daughter ganged up on me and they were like, "No, puppies, wouldn't it be wonderful?" And I thought, "No." But okay, so we've kind of let that go. So Jill was not fixed. So Jill goes into heat right? And is like an emotional powder keg. I had no idea this was a thing. But dogs get hormonal too. Joanne Jarrett: Oh, no, really? Uck! I just thought about their period going everywhere. Does that happen too? Sandra Samoska: That happened, and someone suggested some kind of doggy pad and I said, "No, I'm drawing the line. I'm not changing a dog pad, the dog must go outside during this time period." It was ridiculous, like ridiculous. But before the bleeding starts is like this PMS period for dogs. Joanne Jarrett: Right, while they're fertile. Sandra Samoska: Right. Joanne Jarrett: Oh, gosh. Sandra Samoska: And so it made her super cranky, not with people, but she had less tolerance for Rose's shenanigans. Joanne Jarrett: Oh no. Sandra Samoska: So one morning I had gotten two of my older children onto the bus and I was starting to kind of get breakfast for the younger two and my husband's getting ready for work and evidently Rose, the older dog, looked sideways at Jill and Jill decided to take offense and like charged in and jumped on Rose and they start wrestling in the living room and everything. And even though Rose is bigger, she's not as strong and so, fur is flying and my husband comes in and breaks them up and sends Jill outside. And so, we're kind of trying to tend to Rose who, I mean she wasn't seriously injured, but it was a little bit shell-shocked. It was crazy. And we sent Davey, Davey, who's like in love with Jill, we sent him outside. We're like, "Okay, y'all go outside, let us take care of the older dog." Joanne Jarrett: Calm her down, Davey. Sandra Samoska: Right. Calm her down. Like you need to talk her through this because she's having a moment. And so my husband leaves, he really abandoned me on the field, it's how I feel at that moment. But he goes to work because that's what he does. And I'm kind of taking care of the kids and I look out the back window and I see that Davey apparently has gotten excited by the girl on girl fight and he's trying to mount Jill and he doesn't know what to do because he's very dumb and he's like on her back and on her leg and on her face and I don't even know. Joanne Jarrett: Oh, my goodness. Sandra Samoska: And I look out there, and I'm like, "Well, Jill can handle herself. Clearly she knows what she's doing. I'm just going to let that go because I'm not a dating service for dogs. So that is not my job." Joanne Jarrett: I got other things to do. Sandra Samoska: Exactly. So I go and I keep kind of caring for the kids. That's what I do. And a little bit later I kind of hear this weird noise coming from the laundry room, which is where we have a doggy door, that goes into our backyard and we can shut the door into the rest of the house so that the dogs can't come in. And so I hear this weird noise coming from the laundry room and I kind of opened the door and Jill is standing really still with like this weird look on her face right inside the doggy door. And I'm like, "What's going on? Are you okay?" And I get closer and I see Davey standing outside the door and they are attached like through the doggy door, Joanne, and they're attached together. Joanne Jarrett: Oh, no way. How did they even do that? Sandra Samoska: What? Thank you! Right? Joanne Jarrett: Yeah. What are the odds? They have to be infinitesimally small. Sandra Samoska: They're like fused at the inappropriate place, through the doggy door. I was like, "What do I do?" And so, my kids are coming, "Mom, what's happening?" "No, no, stay back. You don't need to see this." And I call my husband and I'm like, "Okay, this seriously, one, this is your fault. Like these dogs are yours. You left me. These are totally your fault. And what do I do with these dogs stuck together? Do I pull them apart? Like I don't want to get in the middle of that." Joanne Jarrett: That's right. There are so many reasons why that could be a bad idea. Sandra Samoska: Right? I don't want to break anything. I don't know. So my husband, who is giggling inappropriately, he's like, "I don't know, call our friend." We have a friend that's a vet. And so I said okay. So I hang up with him and I call my friend's cell phone, who's a vet. And she of course doesn't answer because she has a life. Joanne Jarrett: She's busy being a vet. Sandra Samoska: She's busy working. And so I said, "Okay. So my sister works for a different vet." And so I called my sister's office thinking, "Okay, well maybe I can get some help over there." And luckily a doctor actually answers, which what are the odds, right? Usually the doctors don't answer the phone. Joanne Jarrett: Man, that was lucky. Sandra Samoska: But he answered and I didn't know him. But he's like, "Okay, what can I help you with?" And I said, "Okay, well, so my dogs are kind of stuck together. Their bottoms won't come apart." And I'm thinking, "Please for the love do not make me use the word dog penis in this conversation. Don't." Joanne Jarrett: Did you feel like you had to reassure him first, "This Is not a prank phone call." I really literally need help with this. I'll send you a picture if you need photographic evidence. Sandra Samoska: I'm like, "I don't know what to do and I have this problem and they are stuck." And he's like, "Oh, okay. Well, how long have they been stuck together?" I'm like, "I mean, I don't know. Like a few minutes maybe. I don't know." And I'm thinking like my whole life really. Joanne Jarrett: Less than an hour, more than 30 seconds. Sandra Samoska: Okay, I've been staring at this atrocity forever now. I don't know how long. And he said, "Okay, well, they should probably separate on their own in a minute or two, but hold on, let me check something." And he kind of, I don't know, Google search, ask a friend. I'm not sure what he does. Joanne Jarrett: Uh-huh. Whipped out the textbook. Sandra Samoska: He says, "Well, unfortunately it could take an hour or two. And I'm like, "Okay, what?" Joanne Jarrett: What? Are you kidding me? Jill is like, "I cannot do this for an hour." Sandra Samoska: I know, like the look on her face. I just, I was like, "I'm sorry, baby, I don't know what to do for you." So the doctor said, "Well, just leave them alone." Joanne Jarrett: Did you happen to peek around at Davey? I want to know what Davey looked like. Was he smashed up against the house? Like, I can picture his jowls like smashed up along the wall of the outside of the house. Sandra Samoska: He'd like twisted his body somehow so that he was still like one leg up, you know, because he was inserted and the rest of him was like sideways. Joanne Jarrett: Okay. Neither of them are going to be able to walk for a week. Sandra Samoska: I was like, "You know, that's not comfortable." And I'm not about to shove Jill out the doggy door. I mean, I don't know. Joanne Jarrett: She's somewhat in the safety zone. You don't want to throw her back out to the wolves. Sandra Samoska: Right. She's like, "Get me away!'. So the doctor says, "Okay, well, just leave them alone and they'll come apart when they can." Like this is a thing. Like they just like get stuck like this. I'm on the phone, and I said, "Okay, well so it turns out that they're stuck together through the doggy door." Silence. There's silence on the other end of the line and the doctor's like, "So, they're tied together through the doggy door?" I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one is on the inside of the door and the other one is on the outside of the door." And I'm pretty sure he put me on mute, because it was like dead air, nothing, nothing. Joanne Jarrett: I'm crying. Sandra Samoska: I mean, Joanne, the kids are coming in, "Mom, what's Jill doing?" I'm like, "Stay back, stay back." And I'm listening to this dead air. Joanne Jarrett: I am not ready to have the birds and the bees conversation with you guys right now. Sandra Samoska: Right! And the doctor comes back and I kid you not. He says, "Okay, first you need to take a picture. Because, that's hilarious." Joanne Jarrett: You're like, "Oh yeah, veterinarians are humans too." Sandra Samoska: Oh my gosh. So then he's like, "There's nothing you can do just that's all. That's all I have for you." And we hang up. And like 20 minutes later my sister calls and she's like, "Oh yeah, the whole office is laughing at you right now. Right this minute. Our whole entire ... the doctor got off the phone with you and was like, 'Let me tell you what's happening.'" Joanne Jarrett: Productivity has come to a screeching halt while we laugh about what's going on in Sandra's home right now. Sandra Samoska: It's true! And then they called their sister clinic, where my friend works and I get a phone call from my friend, the vet, saying, "Hey, I heard you had an eventful morning." Joanne Jarrett: So now the veterinarian's offices are calling each other. Sandra Samoska: They are. They're just like, "let me tell you about what happened." And they're all, "Did you get a picture?" I'm like, "No, pervert. I did not take a picture." Joanne Jarrett: You're like, "Must she lose all of her dignity in one day?" Sandra Samoska: Oh my gosh. I feel like that would be like doggy porn. Like, I don't know. There's probably some kind of watch dog out there for that. Joanne Jarrett: Apparently that's where you draw the line. Sandra Samoska: It was fantastic. Joanne Jarrett: Oh my gosh, I have to blow my nose. I'm a mess over here. Oh, that's so hilarious. So how much longer did it take before they separated? Sandra Samoska: They got separate really not too much longer, and then she kind of went and took a nap and I'm pretty sure Davey went and found a beer. I'm pretty sure he had to go find a beer. Joanne Jarrett: And a cigarette. Oh my gosh. Sandra Samoska: Amazing. Joanne Jarrett: Wow. That is awesome and hilarious. I love, I love that the veterinarian's offices were calling each other like, "You guys will never believe this. This will surely make your day." Sandra Samoska: Right? Joanne Jarrett: So there's some kind of anatomy issue where there's a ... thank God that doesn't happen to humans where there's a ... what the heck? I mean, I'm a physician, so I'm like, I thought I was pretty up on anatomy. Although I did have to look up dog anatomy when I wasn't sure if my dog had a vaginal infection or a bladder infection and it turns out they pee through their vagina. Did you know that? I'm like, what? Sandra Samoska: I did not. Joanne Jarrett: Well, I mean, I Googled it, so I could be wrong. If you're a veterinarian out there, and I'm wrong, email me. But I was like, that seems like an odd design. I mean, I guess I understand why they would... Getting stuck together ensures a more effective transfer of genetic material. You know? Sandra Samoska: Seems like an odd design to me, but I'm not in charge. Joanne Jarrett: Yeah, we're not in charge. Thank goodness. I don't want to be in charge. Especially of stuff like that. Oh, that's so amazing. I love it so much. Poor Jill. Sandra Samoska: Poor Jill, poor me. Joanne Jarrett: So how was their relationship after that? I'm wondering, you said Jill was pretty smart, so she probably knew it was Davey back there. Sandra Samoska: Yeah, they're fine. We got her fixed shortly thereafter, because I said, "I'm going to have to draw a line here. This cannot happen again." Joanne Jarrett: We can't keep getting these two clowns stuck together. Sandra Samoska: This is not what I signed up for when I decided to stay home with my children. This was not in the job description. I'm done with this. Joanne Jarrett: Yeah. Sandra Samoska: So now they coexist very peacefully. Joanne Jarrett: I wonder if Jill have nightmares about it. Davey's like, "Why do I love looking at the back of the house so much? What is going on with my brain?" Sandra Samoska: Well, now she'll sit in the laundry room with her head out the doggy door and block Davey from coming inside because he still slightly scared of her. She sticks her head out and is like, "No." Joanne Jarrett: She is a smart dog. She's like, "I am not going to be caught unawares with my bottom anywhere near that doggy door ever again. In fact, you have to give me the password before I let you in here." Sandra Samoska: Oh gosh. Joanne Jarrett: That is great. I love it. Oh gosh. Yeah. So many things. So many things in parenthood and domestic life are like, I could say I look at my husband probably every week and go, "This is not something I signed up for." I really, the things that happen, but I think that one takes the cake. So now, every time I think I didn't sign up for this, I'll just think about you trying to figure out what to do with your poor dogs through the wall of the house. Sandra Samoska: At least I'm not having to explain to my children about the dogs and their reproductive system. Joanne Jarrett: Okay. So now that we're talking about reproductive systems, you have another sort of reproductive system related story regarding Sunday school teachers. Can you tell me about that? Sandra Samoska: Oh my gosh. Okay. So we go to this church and we love it there. My husband's gone there since he was a child and my in-laws go there. And so it's wonderful. We love it. But when my oldest daughter, when she was, I'm guessing maybe two or so, we had her in Sunday school, so she would go to Sunday school while we were in service. And one day I went to go pick her up from Sunday school and the teacher, she's like, "I need to talk to you." I said, "Okay." And so she kind of steps out of the classroom away from all the other children- Joanne Jarrett: Don't you hate hearing that? It's like, "Oh no." Sandra Samoska: Worst nightmare, right. You know something horrible happened. And she said, "So your daughter was talking about this show she watches with the crack brothers and she said they had power dicks." Wait, what? The what? And she said, "You know the crack brothers with power dicks?" No, no, no, no, no. And she said, "Oh yes, that's what she said." And the little boy next to her, when the teacher tried to say, "Oh no, I'm sure that's not what they're called." The little boy next to her said, "Oh yeah, dicks, you know dicks." So she's looking at me and like what are you showing your children, you crazy woman? And I was like, "No, it's on PBS. It's educational." And she's like, "What?" "No, no. So do you know the Kratt brothers, the Wild Kratts, it's a show about animals and kids and they have power discs, discs." And she's just looking at me. It's on PBS. I promise. Joanne Jarrett: That reminds me of one time I took my oldest daughter was, I think she was right around two years old, because my youngest daughter was still in a baby bucket and they're 22 months apart. I took her to the story time at the library and the librarian was reading this about a duck and she said, "Can any of you children think of a word that rhymes with duck?" And so my total extrovert, verbal, engaged two year old yells the F word out at the top of her lungs. And I'm like, it's crickets, total silence. The librarian looks at me like, "Oh my mistake." And then she just kept on reading and I was like, "Okay, how do I play this?" Because, my daughter does not hear that word at home, but probably some people in there are thinking, "Well, of course she hears that word at home." I was like, "No, she's just a really smart little girl and she picked a consonant out of the air, right?" Sandra Samoska: A consonant, yes, oh my God. Joanne Jarrett: I was like, "If I gather my kids up and run out of here, then they're going to really think that we are doing some crazy shenanigans at home. So I'm just going to sit here and try to recover my dignity." But I never went back to story time again. That was it, first and last time. Sandra Samoska: I mean, no, you're labeled, they put your picture on the wall. Joanne Jarrett: I like those don't accept a check from this woman. Do not allow this woman or her child to come to story time. Oh Lord have mercy. This is my 20th podcast interview I think. And you're the first person who's ever made me cry. Sandra Samoska: I'm so glad to hear it. Joanne Jarrett: My nose is just like dripping. And one of the reasons why I love to tell embarrassing stories to other people is because when people tell me their embarrassing stories, then it's like I keep it as a gem in the back of my head and it'll come back to me at random times and I'll just start laughing out loud and my kids know this about me. So they're like, "Which one are you laughing about now, Mom?" Jill and Davey are forever going to live in the little funny story area of my brain to be surfaced at random times throughout the rest of my life. Sandra Samoska: I'm so glad to hear it. Joanne Jarrett: Yeah. So you've given me a great gift. Joanne Jarrett: Okay well now that I've recovered my composure somewhat and I'm breathing normally again, what have you been loving lately that you think the listeners would love too? Sandra Samoska: My very favorite thing that I own right now, this is a silly thing, it's not really serious, but my husband bought me a T-shirt and it says, "I'm sorry I'm late. I didn't want to come." And he bought it for me because I'm slightly introverted. And for the most part, I prefer to be at my home. I have to go places all the time because I'm one of those people that volunteer for a lot of things and just I'm always going and doing things. And so it's coming so handy because I wear it all the time. Joanne Jarrett: Yeah. Well I think you and I are the same person. Like I am the sociable introvert that can't say no. They'll make an announcement at church. "Oh, we're looking for Awana's leaders." And my husband's like gripping my hand so tight. Like, "Don't you dare, you just keep your mouth shut." You know? Because if I volunteer for something then I'll be like, "I'm all out of words. I can't do this today. What is wrong with me? Why did I volunteer?" Sandra Samoska: Yes. And it's exhausting. And you finally get home and you just lay on the couch in your pajamas. Don't talk to me. Joanne Jarrett: Exactly. Like I know I look like I'm here, but I'm not here. I'm alone in my head and I can't come out right now. You have four kids. So that's a lot for an introvert. And I'm an extreme introvert, but I'm very sociable, so I don't mean to be deceptive, but people don't realize that I'm an introvert until I explain what I've got going on. I guess it's complicated. But anyway, sounds like maybe that's what you're like too. And I have one extremely extroverted child who needs a lot of face to face engagement. Joanne Jarrett: And I finally had to start saying like, "What's more important? I need to give my daughter what she needs." And my husband's pretty much like that too. And I need to give my husband what he needs so I have to cut way back on all of these people pleasing things that I'm doing that aren't as significant to the lives and souls of my loved ones. You know? Have you kind of experienced that too with four kids in your house? Sandra Samoska: Yes, I can totally relate to that. And I think as they're getting older, some of it is getting a easier because more of them are in school. And so I have these pockets of time where I literally schedule alone time. No. Joanne Jarrett: So smart. Sandra Samoska: So that I can like recharge and I try really hard not to put tasks in there. I don't know if you're like this, but I'm kind of a doer, I like to check things off my list, [inaudible 00:25:26] done. Joanne Jarrett: Heck yeah. Sandra Samoska: But you only have so much time. Joanne Jarrett: That's the reason why I'm late everywhere I go because I'm also an optimist. So I'm like, "Oh, I have to leave in five minutes, let me unload the dishwasher and forward the laundry." And then I'm late. And I'm like, "Oh." I did not mean to be disrespectful of whoever's waiting for me. But I just feel like I always have to be doing two or three things all at once. Sandra Samoska: Yes, I'm the same way. And so I had to start scheduling alone time so that I could fulfill my obligations that I'd already committed to, but not be completely shut off from the kids. Because I, just like you, I have a daughter who, she is very, she needs to be all up in your business all the time. You know? She likes affection and she likes to be with you. And if I'm sitting on the couch, she's sitting on me. So if I'm going to be able to like, like you said, be emotionally available to her then I really have to kind of schedule my quiet time so to speak. Joanne Jarrett: Yeah. Your recharge. Yeah. I feel like right now, in this stage of life, the inside of my car is my favorite place because it's like my sensory deprivation chamber. Obviously when I'm in there by myself, not when I'm in there with my kids, but we're to this stage now where I have to take my kids places that then I don't have to be in there with them. So I'll go to the library or I'll just stay in my car and have my "office hours" where I'm doing whatever I feel like I need to be doing. But I'm getting quiet inside my own head and I can totally control the atmosphere and that has ... it's so important. It's so, so, so important. Do you have any crazy coincidences that you could share with us? Sandra Samoska: Sure. Yeah. So this happened fairly recently, I was trying to put together a book proposal. So I'm trying to write a book. Joanne Jarrett: Good for you. Sandra Samoska: And I was kind of doing some research online and what I was coming across was suggesting going to writing conferences so that you can meet with other people who are involved in your craft and develop it- Joanne Jarrett: Yeah. Network. Sandra Samoska: Right. Exactly. And so I thought, "Okay, well we live here in Houston and obviously I'm a stay at home mom so we have one income so I'm not going to be able to fly all over the place and spend tons of money on the conferences." And so I do this Google search, because that's where you go when you have questions. Right? Joanne Jarrett: Heck yeah. Sandra Samoska: I Google Christian writing conferences near me. Right. And nothing comes up and I'm like, "Okay well, maybe now is not the time, I'll just have to do it another time." So I was kind of discouraged. I get in my car because it was time for me to leave to go pick up my son and I'm in the car. And it was funny because I was, you know, when I'm in the car, that's kind of my quiet time. And I was praying and I was talking to God and I was like, "You know, God, I get discouraged sometimes and I think that I need to be doing this, but I don't know how to do this. And sometimes I think I just need you to kick me in the pants. You know, God. So I just really need you to kick me in pants because I think I need you to kind of propel me a little bit." Sandra Samoska: And I have a thought, and I'm not saying that God was talking to me at that time because I did not hear a voice or anything, but I just had this thought, you know, you need to call Cindy. Cindy is a friend of mine from church who is very like, tell it like it is and she'll kick you in the pants if you need it. And I was like, "That's a good thought. Maybe I'll deal with that tomorrow." So, I went and picked up my kid and finished the day. And then the next morning I was sitting on the couch and I'm scrolling through Facebook and I see this ad for a Christian writers conference in Houston at the end of the summer. And this was like in the spring or something. Sandra Samoska: And I was like, "What?" Because sometimes I feel like God uses Google and Facebook and like has them talk to each other. Joanne Jarrett: Heck yeah. Sandra Samoska: And then like send me messages through those. Joanne Jarrett: Okay, why didn't this come up? And now all of a sudden it's popping up on my Facebook feed. This is like a personal gift for me. Sandra Samoska: Yes, super, slightly creepy, but amazing. And so I was like. So I thought about that a little bit and then I saw that Beth Moore was going to be there, which- Joanne Jarrett: Slam dunk. Got to go. Sandra Samoska: Right. I love her. And so I kind of verified it through Beth Moore's Twitter because that's where you go for your real news, to make sure it was legit. Joanne Jarrett: If you can't figure it from Facebook, then you have to cross reference with Twitter. Clearly. Sandra Samoska: That's right. That's how I get my information. Joanne Jarrett: Oh, I can tell my husband I'm not the only one, he's like, "Where'd you hear that, Facebook?" And I'm like, "Yeah." Sandra Samoska: So it must be true. I verified it with Twitter and Google. And so then I call my mother because she's my sounding board a lot. And so I'm kind of telling my mom about this crazy, creepy coincidence that had happened. And she's like, "Well, maybe you should really think about signing up for this conference." And I was like, "Well, maybe." ... And then I get a beep on my phone and I look at my phone and it's my friend Cindy just calling me out of the blue. Joanne Jarrett: No way. Sandra Samoska: Yes. Joanne Jarrett: What? Sandra Samoska: And I look at my phone- Joanne Jarrett: I was like, well maybe you should call Cindy after you hang up with your mom. No, she's calling you. Sandra Samoska: She's calling me and we don't talk a lot. We're not phone friends, you know. And so I look at it and I get back on the phone with my mom. I was like, "Mom, I got to go, God is calling me." She's like, "Well, I guess you better answer." Joanne Jarrett: That's awesome. So what did Cindy say? Sandra Samoska: Well, she was just calling because I had had a story published in a book and so she had seen that that had happened and so she wanted to just call out of the blue and congratulate me because she'd seen it and I said, "Well, I'm so glad you called. Let me tell you what's going on in my life right now." And kind of explained kind of what was going on in my conversation we've got about needing a kick in the pants and she's like, "Well, I don't know how I feel about the fact that you think I would kick you in the pants. If that's what you've been like, then sure." So I went to the conference. Joanne Jarrett: You did go to the conference. Okay. Awesome. Well you'll have to let me know when you have more information about your book. That is so exciting. I'm sure all my listeners will want to follow along with you. What is the best piece of advice you've ever been given? Sandra Samoska: The best piece of advice that I have been given actually came from my mother and she used to always say and still says it. It's the little things in life. So it's really about how it's not the big things or the super exciting moments that really make up your life. It's the little things, they kind of go in day by day. Those small little pieces of happiness or joy and those are the things that you need to cling on to and be grateful for instead of constantly waiting for the next awesome thing. Joanne Jarrett: I love it. That's such a good thing to remember and this is why one of those things you can do is keep these funny story nuggets in the back of your head and then when you feel like nothing interesting is happening, they can just roll into your mind and make you laugh out loud. One time I went to a party and my girlfriend invited all her friends from different walks of life and so it was one of those gift exchange parties. And when our number came up we had to tell our most embarrassing moment and then get our gift. And there are so many nuggets from that party. The interesting thing about that is these were women that I knew superficially and from a distance, most of them. And I left that party feeling like I knew them so much better. Joanne Jarrett: We laughed together. We kind of showed our underbellies. You know this one girl told a story about how she was in Home Depot in the morning and she had her toddler with her and she had just thrown some clothes on when she got up and she had loose soccer shorts on and she's shaped like a ballet dancer. She put her son down to pay for her item and her son was kind of trying to crawl up her leg to be picked back up and he ended up pulling her shorts down all the way to the floor and she was commando under there. So she had to bend all the way down to the floor to pick her shorts up and pull them up and then she's like, "Maybe nobody saw." Joanne Jarrett: So she looked behind her and there was a Home Depot employee standing right behind her and I'm like, "I am so sorry that that happened to you, but I am going to laugh about that off and on and as long as my brain works." I just said, "Thank you for that nugget." But anyway, I'm also kind of excited that you mentioned the whole conference thing because I have been trying to figure out a podcasting conference to go to, but I'm like you, we're one income. I live kind of in the middle of nowhere, unlike you and so I need a podcast conference that's in Spokane or Seattle. So if you're listening Facebook, Google, God, anyone. Joanne Jarrett: How can our listeners follow along with you and get more Sandra and make sure they know what's going on with you as these developments come along? Sandra Samoska: Well, I have a website where I have my blog, then that's SandraSamoska.com and then I'm most active on Facebook. My page is Outnumbered and that's kind of where I share a lot of blog posts but also just kind of like funny things that are going on in my life or things that I've noticed about life or crazy ways that God is working. It's more fun. And then I also have Twitter and Instagram, which I'm a little bit less active on because Instagram intimidates me because there's lots like pictures. But I'm getting there. Joanne Jarrett: Awesome. I will link to your Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and your website in the show notes. So you guys, if you want to just figure out where to click to find more Sandra, if you're on an iPhone, go down to episode webpage and click on that and then it'll bring up all the links. And I'm sure it's similar on other things, but that's the only thing I know how to do it on. Thank you so much for being on the show with me today. It was super fun to talk to you. Sandra Samoska: I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for inviting me. Joanne Jarrett: Well, that was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for joining us today on the Fancy Free Podcast. I hope you got some good belly laughs like we did and I hope you feel less alone in your imperfections. Make sure you return next week, I have Esther Goetz as my guest and she is going to tell us some really funny stories about parenting teenagers. Remember to subscribe to the show if you're having fun with it. If you have a story to tell, please email me at notfancy@fancyfreepodcast.com I'd love to have you on the show. I promise it's not scary at all. Also, request to join the Fancy Free Facebook group. We're having a lot of fun in that group. Every week we have a different question of the week and this week, the question of the week is, what is the funniest thing your pet has ever done? Have a wonderful week and until next week, remember, no one is as fancy as they look.    

Are You Ready To Be Your Own Boss?   Commonly Asked Questions:   1️⃣ Where'd you work before starting your own business?   2️⃣ What was your process of transitioning from your corporate role to your current role?   3️⃣ How'd you define the kind of business(es) you wanted to create? Ways To Connect With Me: Instagram: @twoweeknoticesociety https://www.instagram.com/twoweeknoticesociety/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/twoweeknoticesociety/ Website: www.twoweeknoticesociety.com

"So he records in a barn? Where'd he get that?" jeffersonhour.bandcamp.com/album/working-with-ken-burns Find this episode, along with recommended reading, on the blog. Support the show by joining the 1776 Club or by donating to the Thomas Jefferson Hour, Inc. You can learn more about Clay's cultural tours & retreats at jeffersonhour.com/tours. Check out our new merch. You can find Clay's publications on our website, along with a list of his favorite books on Jefferson, Lewis & Clark, and other topics. Thomas Jefferson is interpreted by Clay S. Jenkinson.

Stories in this episode: Ken’s professional future is uncertain until a unique series of dreams leads him down the right path; A challenging move to Fiji and a brush with dengue fever leave Craig and his young family desperate for a message from Heaven;. After the death of her colleague’s son, Emily receives a unique message of hope for her grieving coworker. This Episode of This Is The Gospel is sponsored by LIGHT THE WORLD. Join us as we #LightTheWorld this Christmas and sign up to get daily service prompts through text message or email. Text the word “LIGHT” to the number: 71234 or visit LighttheWorld.org. That's also where you'll find "The Christ Child", a brand new short film that New Testament scholars are calling the most historically accurate depiction of the Nativity ever filmed.  SHOW NOTES To see pictures, and find links to things mentioned in this episode, go here. To find out more about the themes we're developing for upcoming episodes, follow us @thisisthegospel_podcast on Instagram and Facebook :) TRANSCRIPT KaRyn Lay  0:05   Welcome to "This Is the Gospel," an LDS Living podcast where we feature real stories from real people who are practicing and living their faith every day. I'm your host, KaRyn Lay and if you can't tell, I have a cold. But don't worry, you can catch it through the podcast so I think we're safe. And I hope you can still understand me. I'm not exactly sure where I got the dream book, probably in the discount section of Barnes and Noble where I got almost all of the books that were not textbooks in college. Or maybe it was a gift. But wherever it came from, it was a hit at parties. Someone would just mention the word dream in casual conversation and I'd immediately run to the shelves and come back armed with this book that was somewhere between a dictionary and a comic book. I think it was even called "The Dictionary of Dreams." So anyway, I'd have the person tell me all the specifics of their dream, every little detail, and then I would look up every symbol so that we could try to interpret the dream together. Did you dream your teeth were falling out? Well, according to the book on page 72, you are feeling insecure about some aspect of your life. There was a chicken in your dream? Page 193 says that something new and exciting is coming around the corner. Abraham Lincoln showed up fighting vampires in your last dream? You have a strong and honest character, or you don't and you need to clean something up. Like I said, hours and hours of party fun. Now I know what you're thinking, "Wow, I really want to come to one of KaRyn's riveting parties." But maybe you're thinking, "That's a load of psychobabble," as my dad would call it. And I have to agree on some level. As hokey as all of this dream stuff might sound, there is definitely precedent for dreams and their interpretation making an appearance as an important tool for revelation of truth. Lehi's dream ring any bells? Well, today we've got three stories about the way God sometimes uses our dreams to talk with us as we navigate our way through discipleship.    Our first story comes from Ken, whose experience with two revelatory dreams in his life helped to guide him in his career in two very different directions. Here's Ken.   Ken Alford  2:13   In the fall of 1978, I was wearing an ROTC uniform to the first day of class at Brigham Young University. It was a political science class, I still remember the classroom. And just as the class was ready to begin, we had no professor in the room. And the professor came running into class just seconds before the class began, had a big stack of books, dropped it on the desk, and we all expected he was going to begin class. Instead, he looked around the room, he zeroed in on my army cadet uniform and ran up to my desk and said, "It's just so good to see a uniform."  And so I said, "Well, why would you say that?"  And he said, "Well, I just retired, after 30 years, serving the country in the United States Army and now I'm a professor here at BYU."  And so I asked what was probably the dumbest question I could have asked. I said, "You can do that?" Well, obviously you could do that because he had done it. But he was very patient. He said, "Yes, I, I just retired just a week or two ago. And now I'm teaching here." And in the back of my head, I could hear the spirit say, "If you do it right, you can do this too." And that day in 1978, the seed was planted to come back and be a faculty member at Brigham Young University. So after that experience in that classroom, I finished my senior year, along the way got engaged to the cutest girl at the school, and she became my wife. That actually was quite a week. On Thursday, graduation week, I was commissioned in the army by my father. The following day, I graduated from Brigham Young University. Then five days later, I married my sweetheart over the altar in the Salt Lake temple. And then the following day, we left for Fort Harrison in Indianapolis and that began kind of a whirlwind experience in the army.  I had a very unusual military career. I never served in a division. I had the opportunity in my career to do lots of educational things. First, the army sent me for a master's degree. And then I taught computer science at West Point for four years. And then I had the opportunity after working in the Pentagon, to reapply to West Point and I was selected again, this time for a Ph.D. in computer science. And then I went back to West Point for four years. But while I was doing my Ph.D. program, I was kind of, quite frankly, a fish out of water because I had a political science background as an undergraduate. I had a Master's at that point, but I hadn't done anything really advanced in computer science. My Ph.D. dissertation was on large scale databases, and they had given me three years to finish what's—the average in our program was four and a half to five years—and they gave me the loving advice "Be dead or be done." And I decided I would rather be done than be dead so I was going to finish in three years. But what that meant was that you had to do your dissertation research in a very compressed manner. And at that time, large-scale database search engines, Google was brand new, they were on the cusp of what was happening and we were all trying to figure this out together. And so I reached a point in my research where I was kind of stuck. Because in the sciences and computer science included, you have to advance the field in order to get your Ph.D. You just can't report what others have done. I went up to talk to research lab personnel and other Ph.D.'s and they said, "Yeah, you're kind of stuck." And what happened was in December in January of 1999, and then into the winter of 2000, over a period of about three weeks, I had the most amazing experience. I would dream—it wasn't every night but it was most nights—I would dream the next portion of my research and my dissertation. And I would wake up in the morning and it had been handed to me. And I would get up and write it down and it would work!  One of the problems that I had was trying to figure out how to load quickly such large amounts of data. And the answer just came in a dream and I did it and it worked and it ran in just a fraction of the time of what I'd been doing. And it's cut weeks off my research, and it came from a dream. Other times, I would wake up and I knew exactly what to write, I knew exactly how to approach the problem. And it was just day after day after day, and it got to the point where it was exciting to go to bed because I couldn't wait to see what the next part of my dissertation was going to be. And then, as soon as I reached the point where I was kind of over the hurdle and now just needed to write it up, it stopped. It just stopped. It was just—I don't know what else call it—it was just a tender mercy. But it came at the exact right time, in the exact right amount. If I'd gotten the whole thing in one night, I would have been frustrated, I couldn't have remembered. But it became in just these doses that were perfect to help me finish my Ph.D. And I finished on time and went to West Point and taught as a Ph.D. professor. And I was not dead. The experience I had over that series of weeks, and from my perspective, it was just truly miraculous, it was just a wonderful, wonderful time. And exciting to see what was coming next because I was just sometimes as surprised as anyone else. And I remember my advisory Professor kept saying, "Where'd you get this from?" And I really didn't know how to answer the question. I couldn't say, "Well, I dreamed it last night." But it was one more confirmation kind of along the way that the thought I'd had, the impression I'd received in 1978, that If I do it right, I can return to BYU one day, was just kind of confirmed along the way.  So I was able to finish my Ph.D. on time. And really, quite honestly against all odds as my dissertation chair kept telling me, and then we went to West Point just a few weeks later and began four wonderful years there. Fast forward, in 2006, I went into the kitchen in our home in Virginia, and there was a Michael Buble, a song called "Home." And my wife and I started dancing in the kitchen. And I just turned to her at the end of that song after one of the lines and I said, "It's time." And she said, "It's time." It's time for us to start thinking about what's next. And so that's when we turned and began looking at applying to BYU to see if what had happened in 1978 we could bring it to fruition. Throughout my career, especially in Virginia, Brigham Young University used to send out to recruiters and they would talk about what you have to have to even apply to teach at BYU. And so I went to several of those meetings before I had my masters or before I had my Ph.D., and learned what the requirements were. And so I just kind of made sure I did all of those. I don't know if the folks in the church history and doctrine department had planned on having that requirement filled with a computer science degree who had published on databases and taught at the Military Academy, but it met the requirements of the law. 30 years as a full military career, I was approaching the 30-year mark. And it's a fairly traumatic thing when it's time to leave that military environment. It's similar, in many ways, to the kind of environment that the church provides, people just as wonderful I will say. There was never an opportunity in my entire career where the military ever tried to place me in a position where I had to consider whether or not I would compromise any of our values, or break the word of wisdom or anything else connected with the church. I worked with just a wonderful group of people.  But in the back of my mind, I wanted to pursue the opportunity with Brigham Young University. And so I had applied to teach religion. I had been teaching institute and seminary as a volunteer for over 20 years and wanted to do something different in retirement other than leadership or computer science. And what had happened is I was kind of in a box that I really didn't see the way out of because of timing. Brigham Young University is a wonderful place and has wonderful things. But one of the things it does very slowly is hiring. I've heard them described as glacial. So what was happening is I would not hear from Brigham Young University whether or not I had been hired until the window would have closed for me to submit my retirement papers in time to begin the fall semester at Brigham Young University should I actually be hired. We were trying to decide what to do. It was a matter of our daily prayer, my sweetheart and I were asking the Lord, you know, what's the way forward? What's the way out of this? So I went to bed, and in the dreams of the night, and it's just as vivid today as when I had the dream—the details of this dream are just so vivid. I found myself viewing a meeting. It was in a small office, there were several individuals seated around a small little table and they were in the process I could see of counting votes. And so I listened in, I recognized two of the people in the room and knew exactly who they were. And they were counting votes and discussing a vote that had just taken place among the faculty. And I soon, very quickly realized that I was watching the hiring meeting where the faculty had voted on whether or not would be selected as the next faculty member. And the votes were tallied. And at the end of the meeting, the department chair said, "Well, then it's agreed. We will send forward Ken Alford's name to fill this position that we're looking for on the faculty." And they went around the room and everyone concurred with that decision. And then the meeting ended.  When I woke up, I recognized that that dream was just different. There was just a spiritual nature about it. And I was just absolutely comfortable that the time was now that I was to go ahead and "drop papers" as the army slang is, that I was to drop my retirement papers and to move forward in faith. Even though I hadn't heard from Brigham Young University yet that I was hired, I had absolutely no fear at all whatsoever. I talked with my wife, I said, here's what happened. She felt very good about it as well. And she said, "Are we going to do it?" I said, "We're going to do it." And about two days later, I turned in my papers and then several weeks later, it was actually about two months later, I got the call from the department chair. He confirmed what I had seen in the dream and I was hired to be a professor in church history and doctrine at Brigham Young University, in many ways, against all odds.  From the time we arrived and kind of signed in to the university, it's just felt like home. That was just so wonderful. And then after I arrived at Brigham Young University, several years later, someone just mentioned, just off the cuff, "Oh well I was on the hiring committee at the time you were hired." And it was one of the individuals that I had recognized in my dream. The other individual, I recognized, the department chair at the time, and when I saw the room where the meeting was held, I recognized the room from my dream. I recognize that these revelatory dreams that I'd been blessed with—and they're really a rare event. I'm in my mid-60s and it's happened a couple of times in my total life. But I recognize, I just see them as just tender mercies, just kindness that they came in times when I'd reached a point where I needed outside help. I needed information I didn't have or I needed an understanding that I didn't have. It's just so wonderful and reassuring to know that Heavenly Father knows who I am, He knows what I need, and He's just so willing to help. The revelatory dreams I've shared here that happened with my dissertation, and then also to know that it was okay to go ahead and retire and leave the army at that point. They all, even at the time, they just kind of seemed to fit with the thoughts that have been placed in my head and 1978. It just seemed to be kind of like the next piece and I was just getting a little nudge and it was just really fun to be on the receiving end.   KaRyn Lay  15:15   That was Ken Alford. Ken is one of the authors of a new book called "Dreams As Revelation." And he, along with Craig Mansell, whom we're going to hear from next and Mary Jane Widger have spent years researching and seeking to understand the nature of our dreams from a spiritual perspective. After he was done telling his story, I asked Ken a few questions about how dreams work in real life.  So, Ken, I have this reoccurring dream and it's where I'm in a station wagon. I'm in the front seat, but you know how they used to have those benches in the old station wagon?  Ken Alford  15:46   That face backward? KaRyn Lay  15:47   Yeah. So I'm in the front seat, but there's no seat belt and I'm in the middle and there are no pedals. And I can't stop it and it's going over a cliff. So, that's not revelatory, right?  Ken Alford  15:58   I think not. KaRyn Lay  15:59   Okay, okay, that gives me some peace. Actually, I don't think I've ever had a dream that is revelatory. I think God speaks to me in a totally different way. As the author of this book, you've done tons of research about dreams as a revelatory tool. What would you say to someone like me who's never had a dream that we can count as revelation? Ken Alford  16:19   While researching this book, we learned very quickly that revelatory dreams are the exception and not the rule. And not everyone has them and that's okay. God speaks to us each individually in many different ways. And some people seem to be more prone to these, that God can speak to them this way. Other people have other ways of receiving information from the Holy Ghost. And it's an individual matter and there's nothing wrong with anyone if they haven't had these. And in fact, quite frankly, those who do have them, when they look at it objectively they're very rare. This is a very rare event over the course of your life. KaRyn Lay  16:58   Yeah, because you said you'd had them a couple of times—smaller ones—before that dissertation "Bonanza," I don't know what else to call it. And then the big dream that helped you to know to "drop your papers" before you knew what was coming next. Ken Alford  17:15   Very briefly, it's kinda like this. We think of the Apostle Paul as a visionary man and we talked about Paul's visions, the road to Damascus. But when you look at Paul's life, it is a very rare event, even in someone who is considered a visionary. Or Joseph Smith, we consider him as being so visionary, but if you look, most days are not attended by angels, most days are not accompanied by visions. And it's absolutely the same situation for even people that do experience occasional revelatory dreams. They are a rare and unique and wonderful opportunity, but they are not the only way God surely communicates with man. KaRyn Lay  17:54   So what would your advice be to somebody who does have one of these dreams? Ken Alford  17:59   First, I would just caution that you listen to the spirit to see if this is a revelatory dream. Because we don't want to convince ourselves that something that's occurred is something that it's not. It's also important to recognize that revelatory dreams fit within your stewardship. You won't receive dreams to direct others, you won't receive dreams to direct the church, and that this is something sacred from the Lord. And, for example, the dreams about my dissertation, I haven't really shared that much until now. But I felt the time was right to be able to do that. KaRyn Lay  18:38   So seek counsel from our Father in heaven about how and when you share these things?  Ken Alford  18:42   I would say very much. You need to be comfortable and recognize that there's a time and a place for everything and every place is not the time to share everything. KaRyn Lay  18:52   And just be grateful. Ken Alford  18:54   Oh absolutely. Be grateful when it does occur, but be open to all of the ways that the Lord can speak to you. KaRyn Lay  19:01   Thanks for sharing.  Ken Alford  19:02   Thank you.   KaRyn Lay  19:04   So, friends, there's the good news. Not every dream that you have about vampires and Abraham Lincoln under your bed is a revelation. And one thing that I really appreciate about Ken's book is that it contains some pretty well-researched guidelines that can help you and me as we try to determine whether our dream is revelatory, or just that late-night Philly cheesesteak coming back to haunt us. That actually happens to me. We're going to have an excerpt from that part of the book in our show notes because we all need a little bit of help figuring out what's real.  Another thing that I, as a storyteller, really love about this book is that it's essentially a collection of stories written down from church history, from Joseph Smith to modern-day prophets and apostles and visionary women, covering all the many ways that those dreams can appear. The dreams in their purposes and the stories are as varied as the people who experienced them. For instance, some dreams are warning dreams and some dreams are teaching dreams. Some are guiding like they were for Ken and some, like the one in the story we're about to hear from Craig, they just help us to know that we're exactly where we should be doing exactly what we should be doing. Here's Craig.   Craig  20:13   Not all dreams are revelatory, but some are. We have Lehi's, and that dream led his family out of Jerusalem into the wilderness. I had been led out of Ogden, Utah, into the wilderness and life was tough.  I grew up in the Ogden area, and I come from a small family farming community called Farr West. I worked on a 250 cow dairy herd all my life. I knew what hard work meant. I love the mountains. I love to be, you know, around my family, that was everything to me. Soon after my mission, once faced with the decision of a career, I knew I wanted to be a teacher because I love to see what the teacher does in the classroom and how ideas change people's lives. And coming off a mission, I wanted to teach religion. So if I could teach Latter-day Saint doctrines, concepts in history, I would love that. And I would love to be able to work with the youth of the church. And so I was fortunate enough to be hired at seminaries and institutes. I began teaching in the Ogden area, and I was now living my dream. I met the sweetheart of my dreams and we married, we had had two children, we were teaching seminary, life was grand. And then a phone call came. Administrators from seminaries and institutes, we appreciate all this and, and then he says, "Craig, we have a new assignment for you if you choose to receive it."  I go, "A new assignment? I've only been in my assignment here for just six months and now you would like me to change it?  He says, "Yes. We need someone to teach English as a second language in Suva, Fiji and we need to know the answer within 24 hours." I decided whatever the Lord asked me to do—discipleship was very important in my life—and the Lord's hand would be in it. Others were inspired, we took time to pray about it, talk to our parents, they all said, "Don't go." And I turned to my wife and I said, "The hand of the Lord is in this. We are to go."  And she says, "I'll support you." And we call them back and in two months, we found herself as Suva, Fiji. Now our administrators might have known how much of a cultural shock this was going to be because they gave us a round trip airfare, meaning we could come home if this wasn't going to work out. My wife, Jana, had never lived outside of the United States, let alone hardly Utah. And while I served a mission and traveled a little bit, this was new to her and she was very homesick. And so she was suffering from a lot of things, trying to deal with the language, trying to figure out how to, you know, make meals in a different culture. She would have to take a bus downtown to the open market area, and she would have to learn a different money system, different kinds of vegetables she's looking at, and the meat was on the hoof, or it was live. And I remember she said to me I'm going to bring home dinner."  I said, "Great. What's that going to be?"  She says, "Chicken." She says, "And oh, by the way, the chicken will be live. You're gonna have to kill it." And I go, "Okay, yeah."  She said, "You grew up on a farm, you'll know what to do about that."  I go, "Yeah, but my dad's not here to show me what to do." And the truth of the matter is, is what happened is the chicken got loose on the bus and was sort of flying around. A Fijian lady grabs the chicken by the neck, and ringed it and killed it right on the bus. And she came home and the chicken was dead. And she says, "I'm sorry the chicken lost its life on the bus." And that was our first experience having our meal. And I plucked the chicken, cleaned the chicken and we had chicken. It wasn't long after when we were there, we all came down with a fever. We learned that was called Dengue fever, which is a mild form of malaria. We suffered through that. Our two children were suffering with heat rash because it was so hot. We were sweating profusely and the humanity was high, I mean, we were just going through all of this. We began to question, "Oh my gosh, what have we gotten ourselves into? We have no friends other than the new people we'd just been introduced to up at LDS Technical College—which is the school I was now asked to teach at. They call it a college, but it really is a high school. And it had forums 3, 4, 5, and six. I was called in to teach forms four and five. And my job was to be able to help the students successfully pass the British system school cert exams. If you don't pass the exam, you cannot go on to form five, which is the pre-course to go to a university. And both math and science and English, all those courses at the school were failing and the students were not being able to move forward to the university. And the church went out on a limb and built this school and Fiji, primarily for its members, so that they could further their education of their young people, the dreams of their parents. And what the school has become nicknamed was "The low down school." Low down because they're so low on their scores, they'll never get their students into university. So the church took action and brought three "pelongis," three of us white folks into this multicultural, diverse situation to bring the scores up. And I was then, teaching English as a second language, something I had really never been trained to do. And so that added to the stress and the difficulty of making the adjustment. My biggest fear was whether I would succeed because if you don't have 80% or above, you have failed and mom and dad will take them out and just put them on the plantation. And their life is pretty much you know, that's what it's going to be the rest of their life. So there I was, day in day out, I was working through what I was doing with my work. I needed something. I needed some answer, that this was the Lord's well for me. And I prayed about that, I fasted about that and I received my answer. It was in the form of a dream.  I remember, the dream is if it was yesterday, it never leaves my mind. I was in my very classroom, in the building that I teach at. I remember I was teaching. But as I was teaching, my students started looking and pointing, and they could see something behind me that I couldn't see. And I turned around and there was someone standing in the air, and he was dressed in white and immense light. And no words were spoken and I could see his feet, and I could see the wounds hit his feet.  Now at that point, everything in the classroom had just dissolved. The students who were there, they weren't part of the dream anymore. But I remember seeing His feet and I bathed His feet in my tears. And I held them close. And I recall, He lifted me up to Him. And He then encircled me in His arms, His ever-loving arms, and He pulled me close. And He said to me, you can do this. And I woke up. I woke up at that point, I sat straight up in bed. I thought I was going to be in the presence of the Savior when I woke up. And then I clearly understood it was a dream. I left our bedchamber and walked over into our of the room. I sat there, just stunned what had happened. And I knew that this was different, a different experience than I had ever had before, my first experience of a revelatory dream. I could not journal it for the longest time. I couldn't bear to write it down in words because it was so sacred to me. And I was filled with this love that He had—my Savior—had shared with me. I was filled with this love that overcame all the obstacles that we had felt. I soon realized that I had transcended the pain and the obstacles that were still in front of us. But my wife had not because she was still suffering and I had now come above that suffering and could understand. She had noticed that something had happened to me. And I finally realized I must tell her about this dream. And so I sat her down and I shared it with her. And I said Jesus said, "We can do this." We can do this. And she says, "I knew something had happened to you. You've changed over the last couple of weeks." She says, "That makes all the difference to me, because if you can do this, then I can too." And it changed our life forever. We stayed three years. And what happened after the students had their exams, they went from the low 50-60 percentile that year, to 86%. And the following year 91%. And then the third year, they were up into the 94 percentile. We won the spelling bees and we won the drama events, we had the best yearbook competition. Every different way we could find to make English live in the lives of the students through lots of curricular activities with them. And it happened for science and for math and for English. When we left, they've never had to bring in a plunge again. And they've continued on and to this day, for 40 years. And from that experience in Fiji, every time the phone call comes, and they have come several of them. Jana, we've got another phone call. And she says, "Where are they asking us to go?" And I will tell her and she says, "Are we going to go?" I said, "We're going to go." It comes back to the dream. You can do this. Not just Fiji, but it meant anything the Lord would ask me to do. I learned that God knew my thoughts and the intents of my heart that I wanted to be a disciple. But it was hard at that time. He knew my thoughts. I believe the Lord knew how to succor me and how to give me that answer. And for me, it was in a dream.   KaRyn Lay  33:50   That was Craig Mansell, one of the three authors of "Dreams As Revelation." That moment in Craig's dream when the Savior encircled him, is such a beautiful image. It makes me wish that I could remember a dream that I've had at some point in my life. I love to think that Heavenly Father can and does sometimes use our dreams just to comfort us, and in the process reveals something about ourselves that can help us move forward. For Craig and Jana, his wife, it was that reminder that our strength and sustaining power to complete our missions and callings here on Earth, doesn't have to come from us. Because when we are yoked with the Savior, embraced by him, we move together, and we have access to his power. And we can have hope in that kind of success so that when the phone rings next time, we're ready to heed the call and head wherever we're asked to go. Our final story comes from Emily who learned that while we can't receive revelation for another person, sometimes God does use our dreams to help us minister to one another. Here's Emily.   Emily  34:50   When I came back to work full time, the man in the cubicle next to me became a really good friend. He had been hired by the same man who hired me. He was a mutual friend of ours who had died of cancer some years previous. And this colleague of mine had spoken at his funeral and we just were really close and had a great relationship. This colleague had a son, his only son, who had been introduced to drugs in elementary school and struggled with them for years and years. And finally, as parents they had to make him leave the home and have him try to figure out on his own what to do with his life. And he was figuring it out and had actually come home as an adult and was working on putting his life back together and making really good progress. So you can imagine how shocked they were when one day the sheriff showed up at their door and said that their son had died of an accidental drug overdose.  It was a terrible, terribly sad turn of affairs and my friend was devastated and sad, but faithful. And he spoke at his son's funeral, which I thought was incredibly courageous. When you're in that much pain and have that much grief, I just, I can't imagine having the strength to be able to speak at that funeral. But he wanted to tell his son's story. He wanted to be sure that people understood the whole picture, and how he knew that his son had been doing his best to return to the light. So some months after the funeral, one night, I had a very vivid dream in which I dreamed of this young man who had died. The son of my colleague and it was really strange because I didn't ever meet him. I didn't know him at all, and I'm not even sure I knew what he looked like. But in my dream, I knew that that was who it was. And while I was watching him, a man came and put his arm around him and started walking with him and was sitting down with him, and clearly talking with him and working with him. And it was clear again to me that this man who was doing this was our mutual friend who had passed away, the man who had hired us. That it was that friend who was now working with my colleague's son on the other side of the veil. It's so interesting to think about how I recognized that it was our mutual friend who was helping this boy. I'm not even sure that I knew it from looking at him, although, you know, he was very familiar to me, of course, his face would have been very familiar to me. But it was almost more a feeling that I had, and it made so much sense to me, that it would be him because that was the kind of person that he was, that was the kind of friend he was. And I know he would have done anything he could have for my colleague. If he'd been here he would have. And so it made sense that he would continue to feel that way on the other side of the veil. When I woke up from that dream, I felt so calm and clear. And it was so clear in my mind that what I had experienced a certainty about what I had seen, and a clarity of detail in that whole interaction. I didn't hear anything that was said, I'm not even conscious of there having been sound, just of being an observer of this interaction going on. But I do remember feeling an urgency to capture that while it was clear in my mind, so I could share it. The next day, I wrote a letter to my colleague who had since retired. When I thought about sharing the dream with my friend, my first thought was, "That's a little presumptious." Like "Who am I to be getting a dream for you?" Which is why when I wrote to him, I tried very hard to make it clear, "I don't know why but I just want you to know this is what happened." So a little nervous, just because it seemed unfair, in a way, that it should be me and not him that would get the dream. And I said, "I don't know why I was given this dream and not you. It seems very strange to me because I don't have any skin in the game. There's no reason for this to have come to me, except that I think Heavenly Father knew I would tell you about it, I would share it with you and that maybe it would mean more to you, or might be easier for you to believe it, if it came to somebody who just didn't really have a stake in this. Maybe you would have thought it was wishful-thinking if it had come to you, but I want you to know that this is what I dreamed, and this is what I saw. And I feel certain that our friend is taking care of your son on the other side." Just another really interesting message that people who cared about us here, continue to care about us. That we have people who have been in our lives who really are a lasting part of our eternal lives and our eternal progression. I have wondered why Heavenly Father gave me that dream. The more I have thought about it over the years, the more layers I uncover about what it really means to me and what I've learned from it. And it was a really rare occurrence. It's not a way that the Lord typically speaks to me. And I think part of it is because he knew that I had the kind of friendship with my colleague that I would share it with him. And then I would actually write it and share it in a form that he would keep that is sort of my form of communication is writing so that he knew it would be a record for my friend. It makes me want to listen to my friends more. Someone says, "I've been thinking about you," or some of those kinds of things, it makes me want to listen more to my own feelings. I've been thinking about somebody, I should tell them, I better let them know that means something. I don't always get it that clearly, as clearly as it came in that dream. Not that I think you should get revelation for other people or should plan on doing it, because I don't believe that but sometimes I just think He's just generous in that way. But it was a good reminder that the Lord really does want to communicate with me and with his children, all his children. It really helps me to know that there are things that I can learn that are specific for my development or for the help of people that I love, that the Lord really wants to help us and He'll do it through whatever avenue will get us the help that we need.   KaRyn Lay  43:02   That was Emily. I love that Emily's experience with this dream was a personal call to action. It would have been really easy for her to brush it off, or even share that one time and call it good. She didn't. And as a friend of Emily's, I can attest to the fact that she often sends the scripture, the note, the poem at just the right moment. And that is the beauty of our relationship with revelatory experiences and ministering. They're meant to open a connection between our earthly existence and our heavenly one, to unite our spirits and our bodies for a brief moment so that we can be different forever. And so I take two lessons from Emily's story. First, to be the kind of disciple God can trust to write it down. And second, to be the kind of disciple God can trust to let the dream or the prompting or the ministering assignment, change me.  While I've never had anything more than anxiety dreams, like the one I mentioned to Ken. Our producer, Sarah, has had so many symbolic and revelatory dreams. In fact, she even shared one with us in Episode 12 of this podcast. It's the episode called "Love Is What Brings Us Together Today." So of course, I had to ask her thoughts on this theme. And first of all, she echoed what each of the storytellers says about the dreams that they've had that have revealed something. They said, "This dream felt different. Other dreams are mostly nonsense, but for some reason, this one felt special, and I knew it immediately." Sarah also shared this thought, "In our dreams, we are sort of uninhibited. We're free from some of the constructs and constraints of real life, like the laws of physics or the passage of time. But also, we're not always free from some of the social constructs or the limits that we put on our thinking. And I think that juxtaposition of the freedom of physical law and the ways that we're still tied to the earth, I think that's kind of where the rubber hits the road. The contrast opens us up to seeing our world in new ways or learning something that we didn't expect to. Messages can come through with different clarity because we're in a different kind of world. I personally love that idea that God can use this unique revelatory tool to cut through some of what I often call 'Earth dust.' 'Earth dust' is that feeling that settles on us little by little that lulls us into thinking that the ways of the world are the ways of God, or that who we are here right now is all we'll ever be. That earth dust can be so subtle and so insidious, and really detrimental to our spiritual growth. I can't help but think what a gift it is to have a dream, a moment of otherworldliness and connection with our heavenly parents through revelation. Which by the way, the word revelation comes from the Latin, 'to unveil to uncover or lay bare.' Through revelation, however it comes to us, we are laid bare as true children of God in those moments and we see ourselves, and our true nature as problem solvers, creators, teachers, just as Ken did. Or we see ourselves as worthy, capable and embraced by Christ as Craig did. And we see ourselves as true friends and trusted allies in the work of ministring as Emily did. Every one of those revelatory moments helps us to be better able to move forward in our discipleship, despite the inevitable accumulation of more and more Earth dust. Revelation is a clearing off, a starting over. Whether your moments of heavenly connection and uncovering come through dreams or one of the myriad other ways God uses spiritual gifts to communicate with us, what we can absolutely trust is that He is doing everything He can to reveal us and our true nature to ourselves so that we can win, so that we can come home to Him. That's it for this episode of "This Is The Gospel." Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for putting up with my winter voice. And thank you to Ken, Craig, and Emily for sharing their stories and their faith. We'd also like to offer a special thanks to Dr. Mary Jane Woodger for helping us to make this episode happen. If you want more stories about dreams and revelation, well, you definitely need to check out the show notes at LDSliving.com/thisisthegospel. We'll have a link to "Dreams As Revelation," as well as an excerpt about the different guiding principles that can help you determine if your dreams are a revelation, or indigestion.  We really appreciate those of you who've taken the time to leave a review on iTunes for this podcast. You're probably sick of me asking but, hey, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I know that if we don't ask, we don't receive. So if you haven't already told us in a review how you feel about our stories about the podcast, please take a minute to do that. It really does help more people find the show. All of our stories are true and accurate as a firm by our storytellers. If you have a great story about your experience living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, well we want to hear from you on the pitch line. Leave us a short three-minute story pitch at 515-519-6179 and you can find out what themes we're working on right now by following us on Instagram and Facebook @thisisthegospel_podcast. This episode was produced by Sarah Blake with story producing and editing by me, KaRyn Lay, Katie Lambert, and Kelly Campbell. It was scored, mixed and mastered by Mix At Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. You can find past episodes of this podcast and other LDS Living podcasts at LDSliving.com/podcast. Have a great week.

Born in Connecticut, and now residing in Connecticut, Daniel has been involved in the entertainment business since he was a fat 3rd grader. At 8 years old Dan starred as Paul the Paleontologist in the off-broadway smash: "Where'd the Dinosaurs Go?!" and played drums in various funk and punk bands over the years. A self-confessed film geek, Daniel finally got out from behind the drum kit and got involved in stand-up in 2009. His big break came when he met the lead singer of Soul Asylum at a Bar in New Haven, Connecticut. In the last year, Daniel has shared the stage with some of the funniest people in comedy & would probably like to share your stage too.

Description: Welcome to our first episode, where we talk about our weird conspiracy of the day, why we have the urge to believe conspiracy theories, and the theories around the 9/11 terrorist attack. ------------------------------------------------------------- Twitter: @Perfidious19 https://twitter.com/Perfidious19 Music: www.bensound.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Timestamps: 00:57 - Weird Conspiracy of the Day 03:44 - What Are Conspiracies/Why do we believe them? 15:18 - 9/11: Our personal experience 19:03 - 9/11 recap/aftermath 22:24 - Conspiracy #1 - Beams / Jetfuel? / Bombs? 27:53 - Conspiracy #2 - How the towers collapsed 31:23 - Conspiracy #3 - Tower 7 32:59 - Conspiracy #4 - Where'd the planes go? 34:00 - Continuance - Pentagon 41:42 - Conspiracy #5 - Drone talk / Government knew 44:50 - Conspiracy #6 - Insider Traders 56:46 - Final Remarks ------------------------------------------------------------- Sources: Weird Conspiracy of the Day: Shane Dawson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNuKpwX6Tz4 Conspiracies: VeryWellMind Why People Believe in Conspiracy Theories https://www.verywellmind.com/why-people-believe-in-conspiracy-theories-4690335 BBC Why so many people believe conspiracy theories https://www.bbc.com/news/world-47144738 9/11: Skeptical Inquirer The 9/11 Truth Movement: The Top Conspiracy Theory, A Decade Later https://skepticalinquirer.org/2011/07/the_911_truth_movement_the_top_conspiracy_theory_a_decade_later/ Popular Mechanics Debunking the Myths About the 9/11 Attack on the Pentagon https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a5659/debunking-911-myths-pentagon/ History 5 COMPELLING 9/11 CONSPIRACY THEORIES https://www.history.co.uk/shows/road-to-911/articles/5-compelling-911-conspiracy-theories

What's up with shorts? Where'd they come from? Are they the next evolution in legwear? Or do they represent the past? Also are we that lazy that the only word we could come up with was shorts?

Beecher has performed in the Rogue Island Comedy Festival, the World Series of Comedy, the Park Slope Comedy Festival, the Brooklyn Comedy Festival, Skankfest, & the Boston Comedy Festival. He was the winner of the Connecticut Comedy Festival. Beecher's recorded segments for the Wendy Williams Show, the Danish news network TV2, & MTV2. He can also be heard on SiriusXM radio, NPR, & appears in 'The Get Down' on Netflix. Born in Connecticut, and now residing in Connecticut, Daniel has been involved in the entertainment business since he was a fat 3rd grader. At 8 years old Dan starred as Paul the Paleontologist in the off-broadway smash: "Where'd the Dinosaurs Go?!" and played drums in various funk and punk bands over the years. A self-confessed film geek, Daniel finally got out from behind the drum kit and got involved in stand-up in 2009. His big break came when he met the lead singer of Soul Asylum at a Bar in New Haven, Connecticut. In the last year, Daniel has shared the stage with some of the funniest people in comedy & would probably like to share your stage too.

Motherless Brooklyn, Terminator Dark Fate, Artic Dogs, Harriet, Last Christmas, Midway, Primal, Playing with Fire, Doctor Sleep, Racetime, Charlie's Angels, The Good Liar, The Report, Frozen 2, 21 Bridges, A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, Knives Out, Dark Waters. DVD and Bluray Releases: Hobbs and Shaw, Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark, The Art of Racing in the Rain, The Kitchen, Ophelia, Good Boys, Angry Birds 2, The Peanut Butter Flacon, Dora and the Lost City of Gold, Blinded by the Light, Where'd you go Bernadette. Video Game Releases: Just Dance 2020, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020, Garfield Kart Furious Racing, Death Stranding, Disney Tsum Festival, Need for Speed Heat, New Super Lucky's Tale, Romancing SaGa 2, Astroneer, Jaumanji: The Video Game, Pokemon Shield, Pokemon Sword, Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order, Shenmue III, Civilization VI, Sniper Ghost Warrior Contracts. Movie Classic: Lord of the Rings Two Towers. What have we been up to lately.

Joker, Where'd you go Bernadette?, In The Tall Grass --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/brijandez/message

Born in Connecticut, and now residing in Connecticut, Daniel has been involved in the entertainment business since he was a fat 3rd grader. At 8 years old Dan starred as Paul the Paleontologist in the off-broadway smash: "Where'd the Dinosaurs Go?!" and played drums in various funk and punk bands over the years. A self-confessed film geek, Daniel finally got out from behind the drum kit and got involved in stand-up in 2009. His big break came when he met the lead singer of Soul Asylum at a Bar in New Haven, Connecticut. In the last year, Daniel has shared the stage with some of the funniest people in comedy & would probably like to share your stage too. Stosh Mikita is a New Haven, CT based comedian whose comedy combines observational humor, self-deprecation, and dark personal stories from an unusual upbringing. Starting in 2013, Stosh has quickly become a regularly featured comedian in New England and NYC, performing on WNPR's Colin McEnroe Show, New York Comedy Club's Roast Battle, and Comedy Fight Club on the Gas Digital Network.

Zach speaks with Lionel Lee, Zillow Group's Head of Diversity Engagement, and they discuss his unique personal career journey up to this point. Lionel details what influence and coalition-building look like in his position, and he also shares some of the things that he's been able to do at Zillow that he believes have helped to improve the sense of belonging and inclusiveness for black and brown folks in the workplace.Connect with Lionel on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTSheneisha: Hey, y'all. Sheneisha here with Living Corporate. As you know, we're about having real talk in a corporate world. With that in mind, before we get into this amazing discussion with Lionel Lee, we want to let you know this content makes mention of violence, which may be upsetting, so if you're listening with some little ones, discretion is advised. Zach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with the Living Corporate podcast, and of course you know what we do. We have interviews, conversations, right, that serve to amplify the voices of black and brown folks at work. And what do I mean by that? I mean we typically have black and brown folks, leaders, executives, creatives, entrepreneurs, you name it, on the show, having real conversations about real topics, and today is no different. We actually have with us today a very special guest. I'm very excited to speak with this person. I've been in contact with him for a little while, and I'm excited just to, like, get him on the show, 'cause, like, we've been texting, and then we talk on LinkedIn, and then, you know, we've been trying to coordinate. Even today we were coordinating back and forth. Lionel Lee. Lionel Lee is the head of diversity engagement at Zillow Group. He provides career development support to underrepresented employees and works with executives to develop equity and belonging policies to improve employee experiences. He also serves as a connecter between employees and community organizations. Prior to joining Zillow Group, he worked in talent acquisition, sourcing candidates across technology and banking industries. Okay, so really quick y'all, all of that to say he's by the people, for the people, you see what I'm saying? Okay. Helping communities has always been a constant throughout his life. Lionel has created and developed community groups that promote health and wellness. He's worked with HIV/AIDS education groups, substance abuse/addiction organizations, as well as health groups for youth. Lionel immigrated to the United States from Korea at age 5. His experiences growing up in south-central Los Angeles and later in the projects of Honolulu, Hawaii--I'm gonna ask a question about that in a little bit--helped nurture his passion for community building. With all that being said, Lionel, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Lionel: I'm doing well, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.Zach: Now, look, you know, of course I've got all of these questions for you and everything, but the first thing I gotta ask - you talked about the projects of Honolulu. Hawaii has projects?Lionel: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Honolulu has projects, and growing up there in the '70s and partial '80s, yeah, it was kind of rough, 'cause most people don't know about that, 'cause what they see about Honolulu and hear about Honolulu is it's just a paradise, but it's not really a paradise for all. You know, the level of poverty there, still to this day, is [amazing?], but back then it was like--where I grew up, in Kalihi--Kalihi is a town right outside of Waikiki, and it's--the projects are called Kuhio Park Terrace. We call it KPT, or Killer Park Terrace. Kill People Today. That's what it was, and I lived on the 16th floor, and I had to actually walk up the stairs to get to my apartment because there was a young lady that got her head cut off in the elevator, so the parents and kids, you know, catch the elevator. And then, you know, you have the same stuff that you have in a lot of different projects. You know, you have a lot of drug abuse, and, you know, you have people defecating in the stairwells. So that was the smell you walked into every single day. The crazy thing is that the dude that cut off the woman's head lived two doors down from me. And he kept it. Kept the head. Zach: What?!?!!!!!!????????????Lionel: He kept the head. But, um...Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sorry. Wait, wait, wait. You said he kept the head?Lionel: He kept the head. He was--he was a Cambodian dude, and he was just mentally disturbed, you know? He just had some serious stuff going on, and he kept the head, and we found out, like, you know, two weeks after it had happened, you know? That was--it was a very different kind of place. Very violent. You can still look up--actually, you can go on YouTube and look up videos from Kuhio Park Terrace, and they'll show you videos of what it's like at KPT to this day.Zach: To this day. That is--that is--wow, that is shocking. I'ma tell you, you know, Lionel, in your short 3 minutes of being on the Living Corporate podcast, you have given us the most gangsta introduction we've ever had. And I'm not making light of anything. I'm just taken--I'm very taken aback by this. Wow.Lionel: Yeah, I don't have the typical--you know, I don't have the pedigree of someone that's in my position, definitely. I'm not--you know, I just wasn't raised like that. I wasn't--you know, I didn't think I was gonna go to college. I didn't go to college. I didn't get a degree. You know, I had to work and do all of that kind of stuff. It's just I was given certain opportunities and took advantage of every single one, you know? Made the very best that I could, and I've always had a tremendous work ethic, you know? Just, you know, been out of my house since I was 17 years old. I've lived in my car for, like, three days, just so I can be out here, you know, just doing my thing. You know, just doing my thing and just trying to keep it moving.Zach: Wow. Well, kind of to start there, let's talk a little bit about that. So you've started on that path, but kind of talk to us about your journey from Hawaii to the head of diversity and engagement at Zillow. What did that look like?Lionel: I was a gogo dancer at one time. That was pretty weird. I've done everything, man. Like, I can do stuff around my house--like, right now I'm remodeling my house, and my kids will be like, "Where'd you learn how to do that?" And I'm like, "Man, it wasn't nothing about learning. I just had to survive." Zach: Wait, wait, wait. So let's take a step back. You said you were--you were a what dancer?Lionel: I was a gogo dancer for a little bit. [Zach laughs] Yeah, when I was, like, young, you know, and that kind of stuff. So I was raised extremely religious. My grandfather is a Baptist minister, and I was raised in the church, so we didn't go out and do that kind of stuff a lot, you know? And I went to, like, school dances every once in a while, and I always liked to dance, so as soon as I got out of my house and, you know, I didn't have nobody telling me what I could and could not do, you know, I got caught up in the dance club scene for a while, and I was going there a lot, and the dude that owned the club, you know, he asked me one day if, you know, I'd want to just come in and, you know, get paid for it, right? But it was like--I don't know if you remember. I don't know how old you are, but--Zach: 29.Lionel: There was this one dance that I was really good at. It was The Prep. I don't know if you remember what The Prep is.Zach: Nah, what's The Prep?Lionel: It's just a dance that, you know, like, a lot of black folks did, you know, back then. You know, I'd have to show it to you in order for you to know what it was, but people around my age group, they know what that dance is, and I was really good at it. You can be extremely creative with it, you know? So the dude just kind of, you know--and I didn't paid, like, a lot. It was--like, that was my part-time gig. My full-time gig was, you know, managing the Church's Fried Chicken, which was down the street from the club, right? So after work at Church's Fried Chicken I would shoot over there, and back then they would throw some, you know, neon sweater or some shit on me, and then I'd get on there and, you know, do my thing. [both laugh] So yeah, that's a snippet of my background, but the way that I got into where I'm at now is--the funny thing is I met a dude on a basketball court, right, like, when I was in my late twenties, and it was one of those stereotypical things, you know? I got into a fight with this dude on the basketball court, you know? Like, you know, you get into a fight on the basketball court, they find out you can fight, and then all of a sudden everybody wants to be your friend, right? So dude wanted to be my friend. He was a white dude, and I had never had too much interaction with white people honestly, and definitely not on a personal, you know, like, friendship level. That just wasn't the way I was raised. So I was kind of cautious, and at that time I worked for an organization called Street Outreach Services, and it was an HIV/AIDS prevention organization. It was led by this amazing sister from Brooklyn. Her name was Amani Wood. She recently passed, like, a couple years ago, and I consider her one of the strongest individuals I've ever met and was lucky enough to have her as a mentor for a very large portion of my life. But anyway, she and I were working together, and then I came up with this crazy idea that what we should be doing is we should be documenting, you know, crack addicts and crack dealers under the age of 18, 'cause that's a group that we were not capturing. So the city of Seattle liked the idea. My organization liked the idea. So I ended up doing that for about 2.5 years. So I was going into crack houses and stuff, like, you know, at 3:00 a.m., you know, 4:00 a.m., and dealing with a whole bunch of kids, and I dealt with the kids--I mean, I had one sister, her name was Beautiful, literally, and she was 13 years old, you know? She was 13 years old with a baby and she was a crack addict, and she was a crack dealer. So, you know, I had to deal with that, and that kind of stuff is emotionally extremely taxing, and the--I just couldn't do it as--I couldn't put as much of myself into it as I was, so I was starting to get burnt out, and dude--you know, he was a recruiter, this white dude that I had met, right? He was like, "Hey, you ever thought about, like, recruiting?" And I was like, "I don't even know what that is, man." And he brought me up to his office to show me what he did, and, like, a lot of young black men and young black women and kids that come from, you know, lesser economic areas, you know, when I saw a computer I thought, "Nah, I can't do that," you know? 'Cause, you know, "Computers are magic, right?" They're not meant for me. They're meant for, like, geniuses, right? You know, "Black kids can't do math." You know, "Black kids can't do this kind of stuff," and I bought into a lot of that. I bought into a lot of that kind of stuff. But I had a two-year-old child, so I had to do something, you know? 'Cause I wasn't making enough money, and I wanted him to have a better lifestyle than I did growing up. So I took him up on it, and, you know, I shot across the bridge over into Bellevue from Seattle, and then--I don't know if you know Seattle, but in Seattle you have east side and west side, and when you go across that bridge, man, it's completely different. Extremely affluent. Very, very white. You know, as a brother back in the, you know, '90s, you couldn't be on that side if you weren't an athlete, right, or somebody else, you know, that they recognized, because if you were a black person that they didn't recognize, the cops would give you a hard time. Like, literally. They would follow you around and stuff, right? But I went over there and I interviewed, and I interviewed with, like, nine blonde-haired, blue-eyed women, man, sitting around the table. I was like, "Man, I don't know if I want to do this," and they offered me the job, you know? And I was like, "Whoa, what do I do now?" And at that same time I was actually interviewing with the fire department, and walking out of that office--I drove, like, this beat up 1984 Volvo, you know? And when I say it was beat up, I mean it was *beat up*. There was 100 and something thousand miles on it. The paint was peeling, you know? That kind of stuff, you know? I put on the best clothes that I had at that time.Zach: That was a bucket.Lionel: It was a bucket. Man, it was a buck-et. And I'm walking out, and every car in the parking lot was like Mercedes, Audis, BMWs, you know, that kind of stuff, and I was like, "I don't know, maybe I can do this." And so I accepted and started there, and struggled, man--I struggled a lot. I mean, I struggled so bad the first three months. There's a very large organization. It's called EDP Contract Services. Now I think they're called TAC Worldwide, and it's one of the largest recruiting organizations in the world. At that time, I forget exactly how many people they had, but I know that at one time I was ranked, like, something like 2000th or something out of the company of recruiters, and by the time--I had to make a decision at one point because--you know, because I was basically told that I could be pretty successful in this if I got the street out of my voice, right? So I started [?]--you know, I went home and was, like, frustrated over it, you know? And my girl at that time, she was pretty hood too, so she was like, "[BLEEP] them. You know, we can sue them. Blah, blah, blah, blah," you know? But I went to bed with my two-year-old son, you know, and I was like, "Man, I've got to do something." So I made up my mind. You know, I made up my mind that okay, well, this is what I'm gonna do, and I walked into the office the next day--I got there at 6:00 in the morning. Nobody was there. And I didn't leave until, like, 8:00 at night, and then I did that for, like, a whole year, and I became #2 in the company, and my income went up something like 300% in a year. Zach: Goodness gracious.Lionel: Mm-hmm. And so I figured out that yeah, I can do this. And then I went to--excuse me, sorry. I went to San Francisco right after that. I got recruited by a staffing firm there. I didn't like them too much, so I started my own staffing firm. We did $2.5 million in our second year of business, and that was just, like, you know, three of us, right? And then we added some people on and that kind of stuff. Then I came back to Seattle and, again, you know, got recruited by another company and became the manager for recruiting for a startup during the dot-com era. I was killing it there, then the dot-com bubble burst, and then I went to Washington Mutual as their diverse executive recruiter, and that was probably one of the worst work experiences I've ever had, 'cause what happened--what happened was they wanted this person, but one of the head people in this department didn't want this person. They didn't feel the need for a diversity executive recruiter. So they waited for her to go on maternity leave and then, behind her back, hired me, right? So my first day of work I'm walking down the hall and this woman walks up to me and she goes, "Who are you?" And I said, "Oh, I'm Lionel Lee." And she goes, "Well, what do you do?" And I said, "Well, you know, I run diversity executive recruitment here," and she just looked at me, and I got this, like--it was chilling. Like, this look was crazy, and then the next thing I know, man, like, seven months later or eight months later, you know, maybe close to a year later, you know, the whole group was disbanded and we all had to leave and, you know, go do our own thing. And it was kind of crazy too. The way that they told you was, you know, they asked you to come in for an early morning meeting. I went in for an early morning meeting and they had HR there, and they said it's disbanded.Zach: So where does Zillow come into play?Lionel: 2007 hit, man. 2007, 2008, 2009, you know, and I went through all of my money, and I had to get back to work, you know? So I joined a really small recruiting firm that was, you know, bullshit. They didn't know what they were doing. [both laugh] But then there was this other recruiting firm that I really wanted and I went and joined them, and they were amazing, and--that's one of the crazy things too, the dude that hired me--he's, like, this really young--comparatively. I think he's, like, you know, close to 40 now--Republican white dude, right? And he hired me on to the company, and I go in there and I'm on the phone the first day, and he said "Hey, Lionel, can I [?] you for a second?" And I was like, "Yeah, what's up?" And he goes, "Man, who the hell is that on the phone?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" He goes, "Do you know you sound white?" And I was like, "What?" He goes, "Yeah. When you talk to me normally, you know, we're fine, but whenever you get on the phone you sound white," and it's because of what I learned in the earlier part of my career.Zach: Code switching, man. Yeah.Lionel: I was code switching. And I told him, "Well, you know, that's how--" And he goes, "Nah, man. I don't think that's why you're successful. I would really love to see you be you. I got enough white dudes in my office. That's why I hired you." [Zach laughs] And I was like, "Oh, okay," and then I started really, like, trying to understand what just happened, and the reason I ended up here at Zillow Group--I stayed there for, like, five years, six years, right? And I ended up killing it there. I was always either #1 or #2. And the reason I ended up here is that the person who had hired me on at Washington Mutual, she became the vice president of talent acquisition here at Zillow, and she--I started my own company after a while, again, right, and she was one of my clients, and she asked me to come in, and she said, "Lionel," you know--this was, like, 2016. "Lionel, we're really trying to do this diversity thing, man, but we don't know what we're doing." You know, "Would you want to help us?" And I said, "Well, I can put something together." You know, I talked about it with them a little bit. They wanted me to do it. I couldn't dedicate time to it 'cause I had my own staffing firm at that time and my staffing firm was doing extremely well, but what happened was that it kind of grabbed a part of me that I didn't know really existed. My experience in tech as a black man was horrible. I mean, it was horrible, so I decided that, you know, by doing this I would be given an opportunity to better the experiences of other people that are underrepresented in the tech space, right? 'Cause when I was starting out, you know, there was no other. You know, there was me. There was me, and I was probably the only one that I knew with the exception of, like, one or two that worked in other agencies. But it was me, right? And it was horrible. I hated it. I mean, I couldn't--there was no way that I could tell somebody that "Yeah, this is a good day." I woke up every single day begrudging going to work, and eventually I was able to push down to the point where I didn't realize that, you know, there was a part of me that was always anxious, right? And that's when I got a chance to change, you know, within this organization, and then what I'm hoping for is that this organization will be--you know, will be, like, a beacon for others to take a look at, right? Like, "What did they do to make a difference?" Right? 'Cause we did. We changed how we are as a company. We've changed the way that we're perceived. You know, people want to come to work here, you know? That kind of thing, and, you know, the brown and black folks here are much happier now than they were. We know that because I'm very data-driven, and we took some surveys and things like that that let us know that the things we're doing are working. But that's how I ended up in this position. And I was a consultant at first, and they--you know, we talked about 20 hours a week. 20 became 40. It became 60. It became an obsession, you know? Because I--you know, I was like, "Ooh, I get a chance to--"Zach: Really move the needle in some way, yeah.Lionel: Yeah. Not just move the needle, but, you know, just--you know, we talk a lot in those kind of terms, right? Like, "move the needle," you know, that kind of stuff, and the way that I looked at it was never really like that, you know? The way that I was looking at it was, you know, "Improve the day-to-day experience of the underrepresented worker going into the tech space." That was my--that's my driver, right? The way that I describe what I do is that my job is to make sure that everybody that comes to work is happy and feels like they belong. That's my job. That is my job, and I--I don't like to say I love my job, because I don't think in that way, but I'm extremely proud of what we've done here at Zillow Group. I'm extremely proud, and I'm hoping to continue on this path and, you know, continue to make us an employer of choice.Zach: [applause sfx] I mean, what can I say? I mean, I hear you. This is incredible. Look, I have another question, but I want to get into this really quick though. You talked about some of the things that y'all are doing here and, like, they've been serving well. What are some of those things that you've been able to do at Zillow that you believe have helped to improve the sense of belonging and inclusiveness for black and brown folks? Lionel: Well, that was the thing, right? 'Cause one of the things that they had asked me to do was go out and find best practices, and the crazy thing is that there were no best practices 'cause nobody was really killing it. Nobody's numbers said that they were killing it, right? So I had to come up with my own stuff, but what that gave me was green fields. So I could do a couple things. So one of the first things that I did is I was walking through the office one day--and we had this wall of speakers, right? And the speakers--I looked at that wall, and it's a pretty big wall of all of these, you know, headshots of all of these speakers that we've had come into the office, and I was like, "Damn, every single person on there is white." Like, literally. Like, every single person on there is white except for one brother that we had, and of course he was a football player, right?Zach: Of course. Of course.Lionel: Right? And I was like, "Come on, man." You know? So I changed that immediately. That was one of my goals, to change that, and I did that. You know, we brought in people like Van Jones. We brought in people that were from the Islamic community. We brought in people from the Latinx community. Totally changed that whole landscape, right? And then we started talking about, like, just simple things like events, you know? Because that's one of the things that tech companies are known for, right? We have these crazy-ass parties where everybody has a good time, but not everybody gets down like that, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't grow up that way, you know? I don't go out and--you know, I'm not one of those people that like to [imbibe?] in that way and that's how I party. That's not how I do. I like the music. I like to dance. I like that kind of stuff, you know? And I'm not saying that we're all the same, but there are certain foundational pieces that make us a little bit the same. [?], right? And so we started throwing, like, parties, but I would tell the dudes that came in--I started going out and creating relationships with external organizations that were representative of underrepresented groups within our company. So we had professional organizations that I went and made agreements with, and then they would come in and they would throw the parties. And they asked me, they said, "Well, how black do you want this to be?" [both laugh] And I was like, "I want it to be as black as you want to make it."Zach: Right. It needs to be black black, with a Q.Lionel: It needs to be, 'cause you have people here from, you know, predominantly black areas, right? You've got a kid that grew up in a predominantly black area. He goes to an HBCU, you know, does really well there, and then all of a sudden he's thrown into this, right, where he's one of--I think we're at, like, 9% or something like that, right? We're still improving in that area, right? And then he's just got to, like, hang out and do what these guys do? You know, why don't we give him some of what he had back home? You know, why don't we create a sense of community for him, you know what I mean? And we did that, and then we started taking a look at some of the things--and it's all from my own experience, right? One of the things that really bothered me is, like, when all of the brothers was getting shot, you know, I felt completely alone in the office, and I had nobody to talk to about it, right? And what we did is we started--we created a forum here where people can--when things like that happen, for example when the El Paso shooting happened recently, you know, we had a forum here inside the office where people from the Latinx community could get together, along with people that were not from that community but allies that were in positions of power and strength here at the company, we all got together and we had a conversation, and we, you know, basically video-taped everybody in from all the other offices, and we had this, you know, straight up conversation about what this feels like, and that made a difference in people's experience, right? And then we talked about "How do we do our recruiting?" We started taking a look at--I started taking a look at how we do the recruiting in the first place, right? Many of our people that come on board come on from internships, so how do we effect that? Well, we start creating more relationships with organizations that are representative of us. So we started a relationship with NSBE, the National Society of Black Engineers. We started a relationship with SHPE, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, right? And then we put into practice talking to the CTO, the chief technology officer, who is just--you know, he's cool, he's just really cool, and I gave him an a-ha moment when I took him to AfroTech, like, two years ago.Zach: Oh, yeah. Shout-out AfroTech. Shout-out Blavity. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Lionel: Yeah, by Blavity, right? And I took him--he was one of the only white dudes there, and I was like, "Look, you know, I'm gonna introduce you to some people. You're gonna have some good conversations, and then we're gonna talk about it afterwards," and he was like, "Cool," but he walks in and there's THOUSANDS of black people, man. Where people were telling him, "Oh," we can't be found, which is bullshit. Zach: It is, man. No, it is. It is so annoying, Lionel. Well, it's annoying and it's insulting and it's racist, right? So you said, "Well, we can't find this talent"--like, we're all over, and, like, look, AfroTech is an obvious one, but man, there are also, like, a lot of, like, local, like, groups, right? Like, there's all--if you go to any major city, there's some grassroots coding group that is black and brown, right? And honestly, even if you just take the time and look in the PWIs that you're recruiting, if you just look one more time, they're there too. Like, we're here. Lionel: Right, right. So what we did--he saw that, and we came back and he was like, "What do we do?" And I said, "Well, let's figure out some strategies," and what we started doing is we started making--'cause Boeing has doing been this forever, but Boeing's been going to NSBE and making offers on the spot, right? And so it was like, "Okay, well, let's do that," and we started doing that, and we started increasing our numbers because of that, right? And then those kids that were coming in as interns, we started converting them to full-time, and then on top of it their experience as workers here is real cool because, like, I'll walk by, you know, and I'll talk to 'em and be like, "Hey, what's happening, brother?" You know? "How you doing?" And they'll look at me like--Zach: Even that alone, which is small, right? It's huge to them.Lionel: It's small. It's really, really small, but it's so important, right? People gotta feel like they feel belong. People gotta feel like they're appreciated, right? That's what has to happen, and that's what we started doing. That's one of the things. I could go on and on, man. We've done--when I say I'm proud of the work that we've done here, I'm extremely proud of the work that we've done here.Zach: Rightfully so.Lionel: Yeah. The executives have been fully on board. You know, we also do this other thing where we understand the C-level, the C-Suite, has to be on board. So we do a thing called the MB Learning Series, which is twice a month. You know, we get together, myself, the senior VP of community and culture, and some other key individuals that are well-versed in this space. We'll get together with a bunch of people from the C-Suite, and we'll sit down and we'll talk for about an hour, an hour and a half, about whatever it is, right? It could be a current event that has impacted an underrepresented group, or it could be about something that they've encountered themselves, right, that they want to know more about, right? So we work with them, and they get to learn, they get to learn what's happening, and it changes their perspective and it changes the way that they go out and approach things and make decisions, right? We have our CEO--our CEO is, like, one of the only CEOs where, you know, in his signature file, you know, he has his pronouns, right? Because that's important, you know, to understand that not everybody identifies in that way. Understanding that people identify differently is extremely important, 'cause it puts you in a different place in your learning, in your journey, and that's how we got here. I mean, there's--you know, I could go on and on, but that would take up your whole segment.Zach: No, no, no. This is great, and look, Lionel, we'll just have you back. It's not a problem, man. We'll just have you--[both laugh] You'll just come on back. But it's interesting, really quickly, about the pronoun point, right? So, you know, some research that Living Corporate has been doing, you know what I'm saying, on our whitepaper--if you check us out on the website, you know, you'll see us on there, and we talk about the fact that, you know, 14% of millennials identify as trans or non-binary, right? So it's a real statistic.Lionel: Oh, it's a real statistic. It's real. And, you know, there's so many different groups of other people that do not feel like they belong. You know, they just--you know, especially with the current climate in our country today. That kind of stuff, the divisiveness of our country today, and, you know, we just--we want to make sure, in our company--and we've been voted, like, one of the best places to work forever, right? ["ow" sfx] Forever. But what was not being considered was that not everybody felt that way. It was not the best place to work for everyone. We found that out through our data, you know? We pulled some data that showed us that. So our goal is to make this the best place to work for everyone, and we don't--I mean, we look at everyone and make sure that they're taken care of. And we started our ERGs here two years ago. We dedicated a lot of resources to it. It has its own program manager that manages everything. That's his full-time gig. That's what he does to make sure that, you know, they're good. You know, we have all of the infrastructure in place for that. They're fully capitalized. Yeah. We do--you know, we do a lot of stuff here that a lot of companies don't do, and I think a lot of it just has to do with the fact that we've been following best practices. 'Cause, like I said, we didn't find any, so we had to create our own.Zach: No, that's incredible, and you're absolutely--this is the thing. It's so interesting because as commercialized and, I'm gonna say it, colonized as diversity and inclusion has become, right, like, as a space, when it comes to actually delivering and doing the work, we're still very much so in our infancy, right? Like, there's not a blueprint for anything.Lionel: No. No, there isn't, and that's--yeah, I would agree with you that there is a lot of stuff in our space that, you know, I kind of, like, look at three or four times too, you know? Like, "Really? That's what we're gonna do now?" [Zach laughs] But that's the thing, you know? Let's be creative, you know? Let's figure it out, and for me it was very personal, you know? That's why, you know, a lot of the stuff that we did here was me imagining me, you know, sitting there at work. You know, what would I want? You know, when I first started in this stuff, what would I want? I'd want to be able to come into work and feel like I can be the best me possible, right? But I don't have to, like, play by nobody else's rules about how I talk, how I walk, and all of those kinds of things. I don't believe that people should or can bring their whole selves to work. I don't believe in that. I think that, you know, there's some shit you need to leave at home, right? [both laugh] I don't believe--you know, like, my grandmother used to tell me, you know, "Tell some. Keep a lot." You know what I mean? You don't need people knowing everything, right?Zach: Yeah, keep going.Lionel: You should be able to be comfortable when you go to work. You shouldn't have to code switch as much. You shouldn't, you know, have to wonder about your place there as much, you know what I mean?Zach: I do. You're 100% right, yeah. Lionel: Yeah, that's what we did. Zach: You said, "Share a little bit. Keep a lot." But you're right though, and some of that, Lionel, is cultural, right? So, like, I would say black and brown folks--and I'll just speak for my experience. Like, I was raised, you know, you keep your business to yourself, right? Like, there's certain things, where as then, you know, there's stereotypes that white folks love to just tell everything they got going on. They'll talk about the medication they're taking, if they're depressed, you know? They'll share everything. But you're right, like, I'm not tripping on--I don't necessarily--my quote-unquote "whole self," like, I don't have to do that, but I should feel comfortable--right, I should not feel uncomfortable and dread going to work or feel like, man, just so otherized to the point where I can't even function.Lionel: Exactly, and being othered is real, and it's difficult for people to see that, you know? Like, "Oh, we're paying you," you know? "I don't know why you don't feel appreciated," you know? It's that kind of stuff, and it's like, "Man." You know, if I'm coming into work and I can't wait to get home--not because, you know, I just don't want to be at work for whatever reason, but just because I don't feel comfortable and when I get home is when I feel comfortable? Or I'm dreading going to a company event because I don't feel comfortable? You know, that's a problem. That's a problem. That's why there's more brothers and sisters that are consultants than full-time employees in the tech space.Zach: Man... listen. Oh, my goodness. So look, Lionel, you gonna have to come back, because I've got, like, four more topics we can talk about, [laughs] but you're 100% right, right? Like, you think about, like, it's these temporary, transient roles, right, that give you space, but then also, like--they give you space to kind of move around and not get too uncomfortable in these environments. Man, not to mention the pattern where I'm seeing a lot of black and brown folks are in these, like, non-client-facing positions. Like, they'll typically in, like, the security tech roles, but let me not even--let me not step on too many toes today. Let's keep going though. I want to respect your time. Let's get into how you and I connected. So of course, you know, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm active active on there, but I seen you on there, and you sent me a link about a project you're working on, which really got my attention, and I'd love to--I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that as well as--and just kind of your passion and interest as to why you're doing the work that you're doing on it.Lionel: Yeah. I think you're referring to the microaggressions survey that we sent out.Zach: That's right. Lionel: So Rebekah Bastian is the VP of Community and Culture here. She's my boss, right? I have a direct line to her and then a [?] line to the chief people officer. She and I sit right next to each other. It's an open kind of space. And she's a contributing writer for Forbes. So she was writing this thing on microaggressions, and I was like, "Let me read that," and I read it, and it talked about microaggressions towards women, right, and more microaggressions towards women, and I was like, "Man, that's crazy," you know? Because we suffer from microaggressions. And she was like, "You do, I know that." And I was like, "Yeah, I know you know that, but, you know, there's no data around it. Why don't we do our own survey?" You know, 'cause we couldn't find no data, right? We did the research and whatever, and she was like, "Yeah, I would love to write something on that, but, you know, I can't find any data," and I said, "Well, let's create our own data, you know?" So she put a survey together, and I sent it out to my network, which is pretty broad, and then many of my--that's one thing I want to thank everybody for, including yourself, you know? Many of them sent them out to their networks too. Like, "Hey, you know, this is happening. Let's talk about this." Right? And yeah, I came back and--I think we're gonna try and do this, like, yearly, and try to go even deeper, 'cause I think that it was a great introduction, but I think that we could have covered a couple areas that, you know, people really don't want to cover. But it's important, right? 'Cause I know that I suffer for them still today on a daily basis. I have to check somebody in a meeting or, you know, I also have to be mindful about certain things, right, you know, that they don't have to, you know? When I say them, I mean, like, white folks that are in my same position or at the same level that I'm at, right? And yeah, we still go through it, and it's difficult. You know, it's difficult, and we had to put that information together ourselves 'cause we couldn't find any.Zach: Well, to that point though, why do you think that I&D programs--so I have a bevy of my own theories, right, but why do you think, when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, we don't zoom in on black male or brown male experiences specifically?Lionel: I don't think people really want that wake-up call yet, you know what I mean? I think that people want to imagine that "Hey," you know, they got to this particular spot in their career, you know, they're making this particular amount of money, you know, they should be happy, right? But they don't know that for a lot of us--I mean a lot of us, man, a lot of us--you know, we have to deal with [BLEEP] on a daily basis that they never have to deal with, they never have to deal with. But nobody really wants to put light on that, you know? 'Cause then that would mean that we have to do some more work, and I think people don't want to do that, you know? I think that, you know, people try and find the easiest and fastest way to get to a certain point, right? But when we're talking about something that's this complicated and this nuanced, it's gonna take some work. It's gonna take some serious work, and--what is it--the implicit bias trainings and all of those kinds of things, you know, that's, like, the tip of the iceberg. Nobody wants to.Zach: No, they don't. And it's aggravating too, because even--so I've talked to--so in my current job, and then at previous jobs too, but, like, I have mentors here, and I've [?]--you know, what I find frustrating about us always running into implicit bias is that it makes the presumption that all bias is accidental or unconscious, right? And it's like, "No." Some of y'all actively don't want black and brown people here. Like, come on. It is 20--it is the age of our Beyonce, 2019. We know the deal. [both laugh] We know where people align politically. Like, more than ever we have direct insight into political idealogies, beliefs, and points of view on race, gender, sex, religion, sexuality. Like, we know all these things, so, like, let's not act like everything is "Oh, I stumbled across this racist thing." Like, come on. That's not the reality. So let me ask you this as we kind of wrap up. What are some of the challenges that you've come across as a black executive leader within an I&D space? 'Cause you're the second person. You're only the second person in one of these positions that I've met that is a black man. So you're in this position, right? Typically I see folks in this position are white women and maybe even white women who identiy as LGBTQ, right? As a black man, what does influence and coalition-building look like in your position?Lionel: Influence and coalition-building in my position? Well, one is--you know, one, you've got to have allies. I don't believe that we're in a position right now, that we have the power right now, to be able to make the change that we need to make without powerful allies, right? But at the same time, those powerful allies are working with biases themselves, so you need to make sure that you're training them up, mentoring up with them, to make sure that when they are supporting you that they're supporting you effectively and they know where it's coming from. I agree with you in many ways that, yeah, I don't necessarily think--well, let me change that. I don't believe that bias is a strong enough word for one thing. Two, I don't believe that it is all implicit. I do think that some people are just that way, and they just believe, you know, all of the propaganda and rhetoric that has been going on in the United States forever about us, right? And coalition-building really means getting rid of some of that, you know? Doing the, you know, behavioral change and thought change is important, you know? That kind of thing has to happen before people can really try to support you, because they have to understand that they are being affected, and their actions are being affected, by things that they've been taught for most of their lives in the United States, you know? The United States, man, we're--this is a country built on racism. This is a country that's, you know, built on the backs of us, you know? Whether you're Asian, Latino, Native-American, you know, that's what this country is built on. [to this day sfx]Zach: Straight up.Lionel: To this day.Zach: To this day!Lionel: To this day, right? To this day, and we have to get to a place where we recognize that. We have to get to a place where we're not okay with it. It is something that we're ashamed of, but it's something that we're gonna admit, right? That this is what's going on with us, and we need to move forward from here. That's coalition-building, you know? Getting people to really understand the mistakes that were made. Fess up to them. Own up to them. Make some changes, right? [?]Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Man, I love it. And, you know, this is the thing--you're the first person who I've had a conversation with who talks about the fact that coalition-building is not only bringing things in but also pushing things away, right? It's both. I love that. I love that. Well, look, let's do this. If you had three points of advice for any leader seeking to specifically recruit and engage black men, what would they be?Lionel: Make sure that what you want to invite them to is welcoming of black men. Do that, right? I mean, don't ask me to come to your house if your house is falling apart. Don't do that. Like, make sure your outline's right first, right? Make sure that you work with recruiting to help them to understand that, yes, they are out there, you're just gonna have to work a little bit harder. Make sure that you work with your executive staff to make sure that they're on board with whatever programs that you put in place so that you can make sure that you keep people once they get there. Zach: I love it. Just like that. And listen, y'all, you heard Lionel's advice, so we looking at you now. So you're gonna come around trying to invite black and brown men to your organizations, and we're looking back at you like [haha sfx]. Look, don't play yourself. Pay attention. This has been great, Lionel. Before we get out of here, any parting words or shout-outs?Lionel: No, man. Thank you for having me. You know, we've got a lot of work to do. You know, we're nowhere near where we could be, and a lot of this is about the economic divide, the wealth gap, and it's just gonna get wider and wider and wider. We've got to get on, you know, our bikes, man. We've got to get to work, you know, 'cause--we've got to get to work. We've got to get to work.Zach: Well, they're projecting that the median wealth of black families from a household perspective will be zero dollars, like, by 2050 or so, so you're absolutely right. We gotta--man, Lionel, this has been--like, no shade to everybody else, y'all, this has been top two dopest conversations we've had on Living Corporate. Thank you so much for being a guest. We very much so want to have you back. We'll talk about that offline. Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Lionel Lee at the Zillow Group. Make sure you check out all of his information. Links in the show notes. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Where'd all the Nazis go??? We've got a few ideas.

The three dots that surround us every day. In our books, quotes, movie posters, and the text messages we don't want to reply to. Where'd they come from? Were they always so evil or passive aggressive? How did they go from potentially functional literary device to being the thing that people use whenever they want? We don't know and even if we did I'm not sure we'd be legally allowed to tell you.

Happy Sunday! Time is running out on this weekend. Let's make the most (and best) of it by creating some content! Are you focused on football today or making your dreams come true? Real talk. Ok so it's football. What about before the game(s)? After? What about half-time? Come on, we have work to do. Today I explain the various content forms, types, and delivery methods online, as well as how to find ideas. I have a lot of ideas to share with you that might motivate you to get creative and start producing output to your audience and/or customers and/or fans.  I also touch on keyword search and search engine optimization (SEO) but will get more into that tomorrow and in the future. I'm here to bring you the knowledge that I'm picking up along the way to save you some time and hassle, baby. I'm also here to digress off subject, swear, and talk about whatever the fuck I want. WHOA! Where'd that come from?! But mostly, I stay on topic.

We are all out and about this week, but that does not mean we forgot about you! Please enjoy our reviews of "Good Boys", "Angry Birds 2", & "Where'd you go, Bernadette?"

Yesterday was Labor Day, the kids are back in school, therefore, it's the unofficial end of summer. The ladies of TAYF podcast decided to take a look back over our summer and the verdict is in... we are Golden Girls NOT Hot Girls - but that's not all bad. Listen to hear what made the summer a GG one instead of a HG one? Where'd your summer fall? Plus, we chat about what you should be watching this summer. Check us out on all the social media platforms @tayfpodcast. Thanks for listening!

Hey all, this is Cody Garcia speaking, producer of this podcast. I was asked by Ben and Max to come in and help out with the setting up and management of their show. Only, neither of them thought of a name, found any music, or came up with much of anything other than that they both want to yell at each other on air and have it be about movies in some fashion. In the first episode of the show, the boys discuss their take on the critically mixed Where'd you go, Bernadette?(The latest from writer/director Richard Linklater.), Will Smith's acting career, where they first met, and what exactly their show should be called!

Where'd You Go, Bernadette has finally arrived in theaters. The Richard Linklater film starring Cate Blanchett was set for release on May 11, 2018, but it was pushed back four times until it was dumped into theaters on August 16, 2019. We knew something was amiss with this one from seeing the trailers ever since we began the Lodgecast last year. Oh boy were we correct. Where'd we go for this one? The AMC Sunset 5 was the setting, but Linklater took us to the ends of earth and the edge of our sanity in this two-hour adaptation of the bestselling novel. Besides Cate Blanchett, the movie also features Billy Crudup, Kristen Wiig, Judy Greer, and the always delightful Laurence Fishburne. Listen to our podcast episode and find out where Bernadette went!

In this episode of It's A Mimic! the panel of Dungeon Masters takes a look at the three different styles of campaign styles: Railroads, Sandboxes, and Funhouses. They cover the main Pros and Cons for each style, from both the DM and Player perspective, and look at how player agency plays a part in each. SUMMARY: What happened to Terry?! Where'd this new guy come from? Why does Dan sound so happy? Let us know in the comments! On-Air Shoutout: @questchests Available On: iTunes | Spotify | Podbean | YouTube Don’t forget to Like/Follow/Subscribe/Whatever when you listen! Social: Facebook | Instagram | Twitter Email: info@itsamimic.comIntro/Outro Music by: Cory WiebeLogo by: Kate Skidmore   This post or video contains affiliate links, which means we may receive a commission for purchases made through our links.

In this episode of Beneath the Subsurface we turn back time with Daniel Orange, our ONE Partner for multibeam technology and seafloor mapping - and incredible storyteller - and Duncan Bate, our Director of Project Development in the Gulf of Mexico and Geosciences. Dan takes Duncan and Erica on an expansive journey through time to meet a special variety of archea that dwell in the impossible oases surrounding sea bottom vents. We also explore the relatively recent discoveries in geoscience leading to seafloor mapping and how seep hunting offshore can enrich the exploration process today. TABLE OF CONTENTS00:00 - Intro03:35 - What is a seep?09:06 - The impossible oasis11:45 - Chemotrophic life24:15 - Finding seeps26:51 - The invention of multibeam technology30:11 - Seep hunting with multibeam32:48 - Seismic vs. multibeam34:43 - Acquiring multibeam surveys44:32 - The importance of navigation46:20 - Water column anomalies49:12 - Seeps sampling and exploration56:23 - Multibeam targets59:12 - Multibeam strategy1:03:11 - Reservoir content1:06:44 - A piece of the puzzle1:10:21 - ConclusionEXPLORE MORE FROM THE EPISODELearn more about TGS in the Gulf of MexicoOtos MultibeamEPISODE TRANSCRIPTErica Conedera:00:00:12Hello and welcome to Beneath the Subsurface a podcast that explores the intersection of Geoscience and technology. From the Software Development Department here at TGS. I'm your host, Erica Conedera. For our fourth episode, we'll welcome a very special guest speaker who offers a uniquely broad perspective on the topic of sea floor mapping. We'll learn about the technology of multibeam surveys, why underwater oil seeps are the basis of life as we know it and how the answer to the age old question of which came first, the chicken or the egg is the Sun. I'm here today with Duncan Bate, our director of projects for the US and Gulf of Mexico. Do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself Duncan?Duncan Bate:00:00:56Sure, yeah, thanks. I basically look after the development of all new projects for TGS in the, in the Gulf of Mexico. I'm here today because a few years ago we worked on a multi beam seep hunting project in the Gulf of Mexico. So I can share some of my experiences and - having worked on that project.Erica:00:01:15Awesome. And then we have our special guest star, Dan Orange. He is a geologist and geophysicist with Oro Negro exploration. Hi Dan.Dan Orange:00:01:24Good morning.Erica:00:01:25Would you like to introduce yourself briefly for us?Dan:00:01:28Sure. Let's see, I grew up in New England, Texas, so I went to junior high school, just a few miles from where we're recording this. But I did go to MIT where I got my bachelor's and master's degree in geology, then went out to UC Santa Cruz to do my PhD and my PhD had field work both onshore and offshore and involved seeps. So we'll come back to that. And also theoretical work as well. I had a short gig at Stanford and taught at Cal State Monterey Bay and spent five years at the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute. Again, pursuing seeps. I left MBARI and started working with the oil patch in 1997 and it was early days in the oil industry pushing off the shelf and heading toward deep water and seeps were both a bug and a feature. So we started applying seep science to the oil industry and have been doing that for oh, now 21-22 years.Dan:00:02:32The entire time that I was at Embargin, and working with the oil patch. And in fact, ongoing, I do research for the US Navy through the Office of Naval Research. It started out involving seeps and canyon formation and it's evolved into multibeam seafloor mapping and acoustics. And that continues. So in the oil patch I was with AOA geophysics, we formed a company AGO to commercialize controlled source EM sold that to Schlumberger. And then we formed an oil company, Black Gold Energy, that would use seeps as a way to, go into oil exploration. And we sold that to NYKO, since leaving Black Gold with Oro Negro. We've been teaming with TGS since 2014 so now going on five years mapping the sea floor, I think we just passed one and a quarter million square kilometers, mapping with TGS as we mapped the sea floor and sample seeps, pretty much around the world for exploration.Erica:00:03:35Awesome. So let's begin our discussion today with what is a seep, if you can elucidate that for us.Dan:00:03:41So a seep is just what it sounds like. It's, it's a place on the earth's surface where something leaks out from beneath. And in our case it's oil and gas. Now seeps have been around since the dawn of humanity. The seeps are referenced in the Bible and in multiple locations seeps were used by the ancient Phoenicians to do repairs on ships they use as medicines and such. And in oil exploration seeps have been used to figure out where to look for oil since the beginning of the oil age. In fact that, you know, there seeps in, in Pennsylvania near Titusville where colonel Drake drilled his first well, where Exxon, had a group of, of people that they call the rover boys that went around the world after World War II looking for places on the Earth's surface that had big structures and oil seeps.Dan:00:04:39Because when you have a seep at the sea floor with or on the Earth's surface with oil and gas, you know that you had organic matter that's been cooked the right amount and it's formed hydrocarbons and it's migrating and all those things are important to findings, you know, economic quantities of oil and gas. So seeps have been used on land since the beginning of oil and gas exploration. But it wasn't until the 1990s that seeps began to affect how we explore offshore. So that's seeps go back to since the dawn of humanity, they were used in oil exploration from the earliest days, the 1870's and 80's onward. But they've been used offshore now since the mid 1990s. So that's, that's kind of, that seeps in context.Duncan:00:05:31But it's actually the, I, the way I like to think about it, it's the bit missing from the, "What is Geology 101" that every, everyone in the oil and gas industry has to know. They always show a source rock and a migration to a trap and a seal. But that actually misses part of the story. Almost every basin in the world has leakage from that trap, either, either directly from the source rock or from the trap. It either fills to the spill point or it just misses the trap. Those hydrocarbons typically make their way to the surface at some point-Dan:00:06:04at some point and somewhere. The trick is finding them.Duncan:00:06:08Yeah, that's the seep. And thus what we're interested in finding.Erica:00:06:12As Jed Clampett from the Beverly hillbillies discovered.Erica:00:06:15Exactly.Dan:00:06:15I was going to include that!Erica:00:06:19Yes.Dan:00:06:19Jed was out hunting for some food and up from the ground came a bubbling crude. That's it.Erica:00:06:27Oil that is.Dan:00:06:29Black gold.Erica:00:06:29Texas tea.Dan:00:06:30That's right. So that's that seep science. So today what we're going to do is we're going to talk about seep communities offshore because what I hope to be able to, you know, kind of convince you of is if oil and gas leak out of the sea floor, a seep community can form. Okay. Then we're going to talk about this thing called multibeam, which is a technique for mapping the sea floor because where you get a seep community, it affects the acoustic properties of the sea floor. And if we change the acoustic properties of sea floor or the shape of the sea floor with this mapping tool, we can identify a potential seep community and then we can go sample that.Dan:00:07:14And if we can sample it, we can analyze the geochemistry and the geochemistry will tell us whether or not we had oil or gas or both. And we can use it in all sorts of other ways. But that's where we're going to go to today. So that's kind of, that's kind of a map of our discussion today. Okay. So as Duncan said, most of the world, he Duncan talked about how in- if we have, an oil basin or gas basin with charge, there's going to be some leakage somewhere. And so the trick is to find that, okay. And so, we could, we could look at any basin in the world and we can look at where wells have been drilled and we can, we can look at where seeps leak out of the surface naturally. And there's a correlation, like for example, LA is a prolific hydrocarbon basin. Okay. And it has Labrea tar pits, one of the most charismatic seeps on earth cause you got saber tooth tigers bubbling outDuncan:00:08:18It's literally a tourist attraction.Dan:00:08:20Right there on Wilshire Boulevard. Okay. And it's a hundred meters long by 50 meters wide. So a hundred yards long, 50 yards wide. And it, that is an oil seep on, on the earth surface in LA okay.Duncan:00:08:32Now, it's important to mention that they're not all as big as that.Dan:00:08:34No, no. Sometimes they're smaller. It could just literally be a patch of oil staining in the sand.Erica:00:08:41Really, that's little.Duncan:00:08:41Oh yeah. I mean, or just an area where there's a cliff face with something draining out of it or it, you know, it could be really, really small, which is easy to find onshore. You know, you send the rover boys out there like you mentioned, and you know, geologists working on the ground, they're going to find these things eventually. But the challenge, which we've been working on with, with the guys from One for the last few years, and now is finding these things offshore.Dan:00:09:06So let's, let's turn the clock back to 1977. Alvin, a submarine, a submersible with three people in it went down on a Mid-ocean Ridge near the Galapagos Islands. And what they found, they were geologists going down to map where the oceanic crust is created. But what they found was this crazy community, this incredible, oasis of life with tube worms and these giant columns with what looked like black smoke spewing into the, into the ocean. And so what they found are what we now call black smokers or hot vents, and what was so shocking is the bottom of the ocean is it's a desert. There's no light, there's very little oxygen, there's not a lot of primary food energy. So what was this incredible, oasis of life doing thousands of meters down on, near the Galapagos Island? Well, it turns out that the base of the food chain for those hot vents are sulfide rich fluids, which come spewing out of the earth and they fuel a chemically based, community that thrives there and is an oasis as there because there's so much energy concentrated in those hot sulfide rich fluids that it can support these chemically based life forms.Dan:00:10:34So that's 1977 in 1985 in the same summer, chemically based life forms, but based on ambient temperature, water, not hot water were found in the Gulf of Mexico and off the coast of Oregon that same summer, 1985 in the Gulf of Mexico, the base of the food chain, what was fueling this chemical energy was hydrocarbons, oil and gas, and off the coast of Oregon, what was fueling it was hydrogen sulfide. So this is 1985, the year I graduated college. And so I started graduate school in 1986 and part of my research was working with the group that was trying to figure out the plumbing that was bringing these chemically rich fluids up to the earth's surface that were feeding this brand new community of life. You know, what we now call cold seeps. So, we, you know, depending on what you had for breakfast today, you know, eggs or pancakes or had your coffee, all the energy that we've got coursing through our veins right now is based upon photosynthesis.Dan:00:11:45We're either eating plants that got their energy from sunlight or we're eating eggs that came from chickens that eat the plants that can, where the came from, sunlight. Everything in our world up here is based upon photosynthesis. So, but the seep communities, the hot vents and the black smokers and the cold seeps, the base of the food pyramid is chemical energy. So they're called chemosynthetic communities or chemoautotrophic because the bacteria get their trophic energy, the energy that they need to live from chemicals. And so the bacteria utilize the chemicals and organisms have evolved to host these bacteria inside their bodies. And the bacteria metabolize the chemical energy to produce the enzymes that these larger organisms need to live. So these larger organisms can include clams, tube worms, the actual bacteria themselves. But, so the kind of how does this work is- let's get, because if we understand how seeps work and we know that seeps can be based upon oil and gas seepage, then you'll understand why we're using these seeps to go out and impact, oil and gas exploration.Dan:00:13:09So the- at the bottom of the ocean, we have a little bit of oxygen, but as we go down into the sediments, below the surface, we, we consume all that oxygen and we get to what's called the redox boundary to where we go from sulfate above it to hydrogen sulfide below it. And so below this redox boundary, we can have methane, we can have oil, but above that redox boundary, the methane will oxidize and the oil will be biodegraded and eaten by critters and whatnot. Now, living at that boundary, are bacteria who metabolize these compounds, and that's where they get the energy they need to live. These bac- Okay, now kind of turned the clock even farther back before the earth had an oxygen atmosphere, the only way that organisms got energy to live was from chemicals. Okay? So before we had algae and we created this oxygen atmosphere that we breathe billions of years ago, the organisms that lived on earth were chemosynthetic.Dan:00:14:13So these bacteria survive today and they live everywhere where we cross this redox boundary. Okay? So there they're actually archaea, which are some of the most primitive forms of bacteria, and I'm not a biologist, so I can't tell you how many billions of years ago they formed, but they're ancient and they're living down there.Erica:00:14:33So they haven't changed since then. They're basically the same?Dan:00:14:36Nope.Erica:00:14:36Wow.Dan:00:14:36They figured out a way to get energy to survive. It works.Erica:00:14:40Why change it?Dan:00:14:41If you're an Archea, right? So they're living down there at that redox boundary. Now, if we have seepage-seepage, is the flow of liquids. You actually lift that redox boundary. And if you have enough seepage, you can lift that boundary right to the sediment water interface. If you step in a pond and you smell that, sulfide, that rotten egg smell, your foot has gone through the redox boundary.Dan:00:15:08Okay? And you've disturbed some archaea down there and they'll get nudged aside. They'll go find someplace else. Okay? So with seepage, we lift the redox boundary to the sediment water interface and, and the bacteria are there and they're ready to utilize the reduced fluids as their source of energy. And so you can see them, we have pictures. You can do an internet search and say, you know, bacteria chemosynthetic bacteria and images and look at and look at photos of them. They it, they look like, okay, when you put the Guacamole in the back of the fridge and you forget it for three weeks and you open it up, that's what they look like. It's that fuzzy. It's this fuzzy mat of bacteria. And those are the bacteria. They're out there. They're metabolizing these fluids. Okay. Now in the process of metabolizing these fluids, they produce the bacteria, produce enzymes like ATP.Dan:00:16:01And I wish my partner John Decker, was here because he would correct me. I think it's adinase triphosphate and it's an enzyme that your body produces and sends out to basically transmit chemical energy. Okay. Now at some point in geologic time, and I'll, I'll actually put a number on this in a second. The larger fauna like clams and tube worms, evolve to take advantage of the fact that the bacteria are producing energy. And so they then evolve to use the bacteria within themselves to create the energy that they need to live. Okay? So, what happens is these seep fauna produce larva, the larva go into, you know, kind of a dormant stage and they're flowing around the ocean. And if they sense a seep, okay. They settle down and they start to grow and as, and then they, they, they, the bacteria become part of them.Dan:00:16:56They're the, the clams. You open a clam in the bacteria live in the gills. Okay. And so they'd grow and, and so these clams and tube worms start to grow and they form a community. Okay. So that a clam, what a clam does these clams, they stick their foot into the, into the sediment and they absorb the reduced fluids into their circulation system. They bring that, that circulating fluid to their gills where the bacteria then metabolize these reduced fluids and send the enzymes out to the tissues of the clam so it can grow. So this clam does not filter feed like every other clam on the planet. The tube worms that host these bacteria in them don't filter feed. So the base of the food chain is chemosynthetic. But the megafauna themselves, don't get their energy directly from methane or hydrogen sulfide. They get their energy from the bacteria, which in the bacteria, you know, the bacteria happy, they'll live anywhere.Dan:00:17:59But sitting here in a clam, they get the reduced fluids they need to live and they grow. Now it's what's cool for us as, as seep hunters is different species have evolved to kind of reflect different types of fluids. So if you know a little bit about seep biology, when you pick up like a batheum Modiolus mussel, you go, Huh? There could be oil here. Okay. Because that particular mussel is found in association with, with oil seeps. Okay. So that we won't go too far down that path, but there are different organisms. The important thing is that these communities, form again an oasis of life, a high concentration of life where we have a seep. Now, the oldest seep community that I'm aware of is Devonian. So that's between 420 and 360 million years. It's found in the high atlas mountains of Morocco.Dan:00:18:58And that seep community, a fossil seep community includes the same types of clams in tube worms that we find today. Okay. But they're also found with authigenic carbonate. Okay. Which is like limestone. And so, and that limestone in cases, this fossil seep community and has preserved it for hundreds of millions of years. So where does limestone come from? So remember we've got methane, CH4 in our, in some of our seep fluids. Well, if that's oxidized by bacteria, cause they're going to get energy from the methane they produced bicarbonate, which is HCO3 as a negative charge on it. And that bicarbonate, if it sees calcium, they like each other. And so they'll form calcium carbonate, limestone. And since sea water is everywhere saturated with calcium, if we have a natural gas seep, the bacteria will oxidize in natural gas and the bicarbonate will grab the calcium to form this cement.Dan:00:20:04Now deep enough in the ocean, it actually is acidic enough that that cement will start to dissolve. So we just have this, we have a factory of of bacteria. It might be dissolving some places, but most of the places we look, the carbonate doesn't dissolve. So we've got clams, tube worms, we've got the limestone authigenic carbonate, and if the pressure and temperature are in the right field, that methane can also form this really cool substance called gas hydrate and gas hydrate is a clathrate the, it's a combination of water and methane where the water forms an ice-like cage and the methane sits in that cage. And so you can light this on fire in your hand and the gas will burn. Nice yellow flame will go up from your hand and the cage will melt. The ice melts. So you get cold water on your hand with flames going up. It, it's cool stuff.Erica:00:21:03Did you bring one of these to show us today?Dan:00:21:06The pressure and temperature in this room are not, methane's not an equilibrium. You need hot, you need high pressure, moderately high pressure and you need very low temperatures. So, if we had-Duncan:00:21:20Neither are common in Houston, (Laughter)Dan:00:21:22No, and we wouldn't be terribly comfortable if that was what it was like here in this room. But the, the important thing for us now as we think about seep science and, and seep hunting is that this, this limestone cement, the authigenic carbonate, the gas hydrate, the shells of a clam, okay. Are All harder. Okay? Harder, I will knock on the table. They're harder than mud. So the sea floor, most of the most of the world's ocean is gray-green mud and ooze from all sorts of sediment and diatoms and plankton raining down onto the ocean floor. So most of the world's oceans is kind of just muddy sandy some places, but sediment, it's where you get these seep communities that now we've, we've formed a spot that some that's harder and rougher than the area around it. And that's our target when we, deploy technologies to go out and, and look at seeps.Dan:00:22:26So, so hot smokers, hot vents were discovered in 1977. Cold seeps were discovered in 1985 and were found to be associated, in the Gulf of Mexico with oil and gas seepage. That's 1985. Those were discovered with human beings in a sub in submersibles. Later, we deployed robotic submersibles to go look at seeps, ROV's and even later we developed tools to go sample seeps without needing to have eyes on the bottom and we'll come and talk and we'll come back and talk about that later.Dan:00:22:57But for kind of recap, a seep is a place where something is leaking out of the earth surface. When we talk about seeps, we're talking about offshore seepage of oil and gas that supports this profusion of chemically-based life forms as well as these precipitants, the authigenic carbonate limestone and gas hydrate. And the important thing is they change the acoustic properties of the sea floor.Duncan:00:23:28Yeah. Then the key thing is that you've gone from having, seeps onshore, which are relatively easy to walk up to and see, but hard to find, to seeps offshore, which are impossible to walk up to or very difficult. You need a submersible to do it. But because of this, chemosynthetic communities that build up around it and our knowledge of that and now gives us something to look for geophysically. So we can apply some geophysics, which we'll get on to talk about next in terms of the multibeam, to actually hunt for these things in a very cost effective way and a very fast manner. So we can cover, as Dan said, right at the start, hundreds of thousands of square kilometers, even over a million now, in a cost effective, timely manner and identify these seeps from the sea surface.Dan:00:24:15Now fishermen, know where seeps are because all of this limestone provides places for fish to leave their larva where they might live, they call them refugia. It's a, it's a place where, you know, lots of little fish and where you have lots of little fish, you have lots of big fish. And since we're also increasing this primary productivity, you get, you get profusions of fish around seep communities. So we've found authigenic carbonate in the front yards of fishermen in areas where that we've gone to study seeps. And if you chip a little bit off it, you can go and analyze it in the lab or if you can get somebody who fishes for a living to tell you their spots. And that involves convincing them that you're not going to steal their spots and you're not gonna tell everybody where their spots are. But if you go into a frontier area, if you can get somebody who fishes for a living to talk to you, you might have some ideas of where to go look for them.Dan:00:25:14So it kind of, one other point that I wanted to make here about seeps is, remember I talked about how seep organism creates kind of a larva, which is dormant and it's kind of flowing through the world's ocean, looking for a seep community, doing some back of the envelope calculations. If, if a larva can survive for about a month. Okay. And you have a one knot current that larva can move about 1300 kilometers in a month, which is about the length of the island of Java. And it might be about the length of the state of California. So if you think now, so if you think about that, then all you need is a seep community somewhere to be sending out larva. Most of which of course never gonna survive. And then if we get a seep somewhere else, the odds are that there's going to be a larva bouncing along the sea floor that is going to see that and start growing.Dan:00:26:08So for us as explorationists as the, the important thing is if there's a seep, there's a pretty good chance that, that a seep community will start to form, if the seepage lasts long enough, it will form a community depending, you know, might be large, might be medium size, but it changes the acoustic properties of the sea floor. Okay, so that, remember we're going to talk about seeps what they, what, what's a seep and that is how it's related to hydrocarbon seepage out of the or natural gas oil, you know, reduced fluids. What we were going to talk about, and now we're going to talk about how offshore we use this technology called multibeam to go and find them. Okay.Dan:00:26:51So back in, back in the Cold War, the air force came up with a tool to map the former Soviet Union called synthetic aperture radar. And when the navy saw the air forces maps, they said, we want a map of the sea floor. And at the time, you know, if you remember your World War II movies, the submarine sends out a Ping, somebody listening on, their, on their headphones and and the ping comes back and the amount of time that it took for the ping to go out and the ping come back is how deep the water is. If you know the speed of sound in water. But that's, that's just one point directly beneath you, that's not good enough to get a detailed map of the sea floor. So, driven by these cold war needs, the navy contracted a company called general instruments to develop a tool to map the sea floor and they develop what's called SASS, the sonar array sounding system, which we now call multibeam.Dan:00:27:49In the 1960s, it was unveiled to the world during a set of, submersible dives to the mid Ocean Ridge, I believe in 1975 as part of the famous project. And the geoscientist looked at that map and it was a contour map of the mid ocean region. They said, holy smokes, what's that? Where'd that come from? And the navy said, well, we kind of developed a new technology and it was first commercialized in 1977 the same year hot smokers were discovered on the world's oceans. And it has been continuously developed since then. And in about the 1990s, it got resolute enough for, for us to take this, this kind of seeps, seep hunting science and take it offshore. So until then, 1980s, we were deploying submersibles. We were going down and looking at them. We had very crude maps. We had some side scan shows, a little bit about, the acoustic properties of the sea floor.Dan:00:28:46But it wasn't until the mid 1990s that we realized that with these tools, these sea floor mapping tools that had acoustic, analyzing techniques that we could identify areas that were harder and rougher and had a different shape, that allowed us to start, instead of just driving around and, and, we're finding one by, by luck or chance actually saying, Huh, there's a, there's an interesting acoustic signature over there. Let's go take a look at it. And deploying submersibles and ROVs and realizing that yes, we had tools that could, be used to, to map the sea floor and identify seeps and driven by their own interests. The Navy, the US navy was very interested in these and, was, was a early, early funder of seep science and they've continued with it as well as academic institutions around the world that got very interested in seep communities.Dan:00:29:45And in fact, NASA, NASA is really interested in seep communities because they're chemically based life forms in what are basically extreme environments. And so if NASA wants to figure out what life is going to look like on a different planet, or a different moon on it, or surrounding a different planet that doesn't have an oxygen atmosphere, here's a, a laboratory on earth that, that they can use. So NASA has been funding seep science as well.Dan:00:30:11So multibeam what is it and how does it apply to, to, to hunting seeps. So multibeam, which is this technology that was developed by and funded by the navy in the 1960s and commercialized in the 70s uses two acoustic arrays of transducers. one array is mounted parallel to the length of a ship. And when you fire off all those transducers, it sends out a ping. And the longer the array is, the narrower that beam is. That's how antennas work. So that that long array sends out a ping, which is narrow along track and a shape, kind of like a saucer. So if you can imagine two dinner plates put together, that's what this, ping of energy looks like. And that's what we call the transmit beam. So then if you listen to the sea floor with an array that's perpendicular to the transmitter ray, we are now listening to an area that's, that's narrow across track. Okay. And it's long elongate a long track. So we've got this narrow transmit beam in one direction that's, that's now perpendicular to the ship. And we've got a narrow receive beam that's parallel to the ship and where those two intersect is what we call a beam. And so with, with lots of different, transducers mounted, perpendicular to the ship, we can listen from all the way out to the port about 65 degrees down below the ship and all the way over to starboard, again, about 65 degrees. And we have lots of beams.Dan:00:31:51So right now the system that we're using, on our project has 455 beams across track. So every time we send out a ping, we ensonify the sea floor on, on these 455 beams. And as we go along, we send out another ping and another ping. And we're basically, we're painting the sea floor. It's, it's like mowing the lawn with a big lawn mower or using a Zamboni to drive around an ice rink. You can just think of it as as a ship goes along. We are ensonifying and listening to a wide patch of sea floor and we typically map, about a five kilometer, about a three mile, a wide swath, and we send out a ping every six or 10 seconds. Depends how, you know, depends on the water depth. And so we're able to map 1000 or 2000 square kilometers a day with this technique. This multibeam technique.Duncan:00:32:48Since a lot of our podcast listeners might be familiar with seismic is that's probably the biggest percentage of the, the geophysical industry. This is not too different. It's an acoustic based technique. I guess the main difference is are we live working in a different, frequency bandwidth. And also that we have both the receiver and the transmitter both mounted on the same boat. So we're not dealing with a streamer out the back of a boat. we have transmitter and receiver are both whole mounted. But after that it's all pretty similar to seismic. We go backwards and forwards, either in 2D lines or in a, in a 3D grid and we build up a picture. Now because of the frequencies we're working with, we don't penetrate very deep into the sea floor. but as, as we mentioned, we're interested in seeing those seep communities on the sea floor. So that's why we this, this is the perfect technology for, for that application.Erica:00:33:40Oh, can you talk a little bit about the post-processing that's involved with multibeam?Dan:00:33:44Well, let me- Erica, Great question. Let me, come back to that later cause I want to pay, I want to pick up on what Duncan talked about in and add one very important wrinkle. So first of all, absolutely correct, the frequencies are different. In seismic, we're down in the hertz to tens of Hertz and in Multibeam we're in the tens of kilohertz and in very shallow water, maybe even over higher than a hundred kilohertz. In seismic, we have air guns that send that radiate out energy. And we, we designed the arrays so that we get most of the energy in the direction that we're looking with multi beam. We have a narrow, remember it's one degree wide in here. If you got kids, see if anybody still has a protractor anymore, grab a protractor and look at how wide one degree is. It's very narrow.Duncan:00:34:39There's probably an iPhone app for that. (Laughter) see what one used to look like.Dan:00:34:43But with, with seismic, the air guns sends out energy and we listened to the reflected energy out on the streamer back behind the ship or on a node somewhere else. It's reflected energy. With multibeam, the energy goes out and it interacts with the sea floor and the shallow subsurface. Most of it gets reflected away and we don't, we don't, hear that it, but some of it actually comes back in the same direction that the sound went out and we call that backscatter. So backscatter energy comes back to you and it's that backscatter that, can increase when we have hard and rough material either on the sea floor or buried below the sea floor. So the way that we process it is since we know the time of length, the time of path on how long it took to get out, hit the sea floor and come back, or you can correct for path lengths, energy radiates outward and spherical patterns. So we correct for spherical spreading. we know the angle that it hit the sea floor, so we correct for angle of ensonification. And then the next and most important things are where was the ship, when the pulse went out? And where is the ship when the pulse comes back, including what's the orientation of the ship? So we need to know the location, the position of the ship in X, Y, and Z to centimeters. And we need to know the orientation of the ship to tenths of a degree or better on both the transmit and the receive. But the key thing is, if we know that path length in the spherical spreading and we correct for all of that and we get a response that's much greater than we expected, we get higher backscatter energy and it's, it's those clams and tube worms authigenic carbonate gas hydrate that can increase the hardness and the roughness of the sea floor that kicked back the backscatter energy.Dan:00:36:46Okay. Now what happens if the oil and gas, or the reduced fluids if they shut off? Well, I'm sorry to say for the clams and the tube worms that they will eventually die. The bacteria will still live at that redox boundary as it settles back below the sediment. And then when we pile some sediment on top of that dead seep community, it's still there. The shells are there, the carbonate's still there. So with the, with multibeam that the frequencies, we use 12 and 30 kilohertz penetrate between two, three 10 meters or so into the sediment. So if you shut off the seepage and bury that seep community, they're still there. And if we can sample that below that redox boundary at that location, chances are we're going to get a oil or gas in, in our sample. And in fact, we encounter live seep communities very, very, very, very rarely, you know, kind of one in a thousand.Dan:00:37:50But, we, we encounter seep fauna down in our sample cores, which we'll talk about later, much more frequently. And, and we, we find hydrocarbons, we are very successful at finding hydrocarbons. And the key thing is we're using seep science to go look in, in basins or extend outward from basins in areas where there may be no known oil or gas production. And that's why the seeps are useful. So multibeam unlike a seismic, we got to collect the data, then we got it and you to do all sorts of processing and it takes a while to, to crank the computers and whatnot. Multibeam we can, we can look at it as it comes in and we can see the backscatter strength. We can see what the swath that it's mapping every ping, every six seconds. And it takes about, it takes less than a day to process a days worth of multibeam.Dan:00:38:47So when our ships are out there working every morning, when we get the daily report from the ship, we see another thousand or 2000 square kilometers of data that were mapped just the previous day. So it's for, those who can't wait, it's really satisfying. But for those of us who are trying to accelerate projects, it's great because when the data come off the ship, they're already processed. We can start picking targets and we can be out there, you know, in weeks sampling. So that's so multibeam it's, it's bathymetry, it's backscatter, but we're also imaging the water column. So if there's, a gas plume, coming out of the sea floor, naturally we can see that gas plume and, so that we can see the water column. We can see the sea floor or the bathymetry, and the backscatter. Erica, you asked, you know, about the processing and I talked about how we have to know the position and the orientation, of the ship, that means that we have to survey in using a laser theodolight.Dan:00:39:54We have to survey in every component of the system on the ship to, you know, fractions of a millimeter. And we drive the surveyors nuts because we are, we are more demanding than the, the BMW plant in South Carolina. And they point that out to us every time. Yes, we're more demanding. But if they have a problem with, with a robot in the BMW plant, they can go out and survey it again, once we put this ship in the water, I can't go survey the array that's now welded to the bottom of the ship. It's there. And so that's why we make them do three replicate surveys and do loop ties and convince us that we've got incredibly accurate and precise system. So that's when we survey the ship. We use, well we go back and we go and we check their math and we make sure all the numbers are entered into the system correctly.Dan:00:40:46We, measure the water column every day so that we have the best velocity data that we use to correct the, that position. We measure the salinity in the water column because it affects how energy is absorbed. It's called the absorption coefficient. We measure the acoustic properties of the ship. So we understand maybe we need to turn off the starboard side pump in order to get better multibeam data. And we evaluate every component of the ship. Something. Sometimes they'll have, you know, the, the waste unit was, was mounted onto the, onto the deck of the ship and nobody thought about putting a rubber bushing between that unit and the hall to isolate the sound. And it just so happens it's at 12 kilohertz. So it swamps your acoustic energy or degrades our data quality because it's all about data quality so that we can find these small, interesting high backscatter targets. We polish the hull. We send divers down every eight weeks or 12 weeks or 16 weeks because you get biofouling you get, you get these barnacles growing in a barnacle in between your acoustic array in the sea floor is going to affect the data. So we send divers down to go scrape the hull and scraped the prop.Duncan:00:42:05So it's probably worth mentioning that this is the same type of multibeam or multibeam data is the same data that is used in other parts of the oil and gas industry as well. So I mean, any pipeline that's ever been laid in the last few decades has had a multibeam survey before it. Any bit of marine infrastructure that an oil and gas company wants to put in the Gulf of Mexico. Certainly you have to have a multibeam survey ahead of time. what's different here is that we're, we're trying to cover big areas and we're trying to get a very specific resolution. So maybe it's worth talking a bit about that. Dan what we're actually trying to achieve in terms of the resolution to actually find seeps.Dan:00:42:42You got it. So we, we can, we can control the resolution because we can control how wide a swath we go and how fast we go. So, if you're really interested in, if you want to do a site survey and you want to get incredibly detailed data of a three kilometer by three kilometer square, you could deploy an autonomous underwater vehicle or an ROV and get very, very, very resolute, like smaller than half a meter of bin size. for what we do, where our goal is exploration, the trade off is between, do I want more resolute data or do I want more data and it that that is a tradeoff and it's something that we struggle with. And we think that the sweet spot is mapping that five kilometers swath and three miles wide, swath at about oh eight to 10 knots. So let's say about 16 kilometers an hour.Dan:00:43:40That gets us a thousand to 2000 square kilometers a day. And by acquiring data in that manner, we get a 15 meter bathymetric bin independent of water depth and our backscatter since we subsample that bathymetric bin for the backscatter, we can get a five meter backscatter pixel. So now if I have four, if I have four adjacent pixels, you know, shaped like a square, that's a 10 meter by 10 meter spot on the sea floor, it's slightly larger than this room. We could, you could see that now you might need a couple of more to be larger than that. So to have a target actually stand out, and that's about how accurate our sampling is with the core barrel. So, the long answer to your question is about a 15 meter bathymetric bin and a five meter backscatter pixel is what we're currently doing for our exploration work.Dan:00:44:32Now we pay attention to what's going on in the navigation and the positioning world because it affects our data quality. So the higher the quality of, of our navigation, the higher the quality of our data on the sea floor. So about a decade ago, the world's airlines asked if they could fly their airplanes closer together and the FAA responded and said, not unless you improve GPS and so sponsored by the world's airlines. They set up ground stations all in, in the, in the most heavily traveled parts of the world that improve the GPS signal by having an independent orbital corrections. What that means is for us working off shore, we take advantage of it. It's called wide area augmentation. And, using this system, which is now it's a, it's add on for a GPS receiver, we're able to get six centimeter accuracy of a ship that's out there in the ocean that surveying.Dan:00:45:27So that's six centimeters. What's that? About two and a half inches. And for those of us who grew up with low ran and very, you know, where you were lucky if you knew where you were to within, you know, a quarter of a mile. it's, it's just astonishing to me that this box can produce data of that quality, but that flows through to the quality of the data that we get on our surveys, which flows through to our ability to find targets. So I think, I told you about sub sampling, the bathymetry for backscatter and I've told, I told you about the water column and we've talked about the resolution. I think we've, we've pretty much hit what multibeam is. It's, it's a real time near real time acquisition, high frequency narrow beam. We image the sea floor and the shallow subsurface. Okay and we use that to find anomalous backscatter targets.Duncan:00:46:20Well, let's talk about the water column a little bit more done because I know we've published some pictures and images from our surveys. Showing the water column anomalies. The backscatter data, in the water column itself can actually help us find seeps. The right mixture of oil and gas coming out of this, an active seep and migrating up through the water column can actually be picked up on these multibeam data also. So that's, a real direct hit that you've got to see and that it's actually still producing oil today,Dan:00:46:53Right, so when, when gas and oil leak out of the sea floor, the gas bubble begins to expand as it comes up, just like a would in a, in a carbonated beverage because there's less pressure. So that gap, that bubble is expanding. If there's oil present, the oil coats the outside of the bubble and actually protects it from dissolving into the water column. And so the presence of gas with a little bit of oil leaking out of the sea floor creates these bubbles that, are big enough to see with these 12 and 30 kilohertz systems. And so when we see a plume coming out of the sea floor, that's natural, a seepage of gas, possibly with a little bit of oil and it provides a great target for us to go and hit. Now those seeps are flowing into the water column and the water column has currents and the currents aren't the same from one day to the next and one week to the next.Dan:00:47:47So if we image a seep a couple of different times, one day it will be flowing in one direction and the next time we see it flowing in a different direction. The area in common between the two is pointing us toward the origin point on the sea floor. And that's what we're going to target. And if you, if you hunt around, look for NOAA studies of, of the US Gulf of Mexico, over Mississippi Canyon near where the deep water horizon, went down because there are, the, NOAA has published, images of the gas seeps in that area where there are natural oil and gas seeps leaking, leaking other, the sea floor. And these natural seeps occur all over the world. Okay? And they're bringing oil and gas into the water column. But remember, nature has basically provided, the cleanup tool, which is the bacteria. So where oil and gas settle onto the sea floor, there are bacteria that will consume it. You don't want a lot of it in one place, cause then then you've got, you know, a real environmental disaster. But natural oil and gas seepage goes hand in hand with natural seep consuming organisms that metabolize these fluids. So a multi beam seeps backscatter okay. That I think we've, we've talked about what the target looks like. Let's talk about how we go in and sample it.Duncan:00:49:12Yeah, no, I think that's the real key thing. Particularly here in the Gulf of Mexico. I mean we talked at the start about how I'm using seeps can tell you whether a basin has hydrocarbons in it or not. Clearly we're decades past the point of knowing whether there's oil and gas in the Gulf of Mexico. So even in the deep water gulf of Mexico, especially here in the US side, we know that there's oil and gas, so that information is long gone. We don't, we don't need an update on that anymore. What we need to know is information about the type of oil, the age of the oil, the deep positional environment that the oil is deposited in. And if we can actually get a sample from these seeps, then that's the sort of information that modern geochemistry can start to pull out for us.Dan:00:49:57we've sat in the same meetings where the, the potential client companies have said, why are you, why are you gonna map the deepest part of the Gulf of Mexico? There's no oil out there. And lo and behold, we found anomalous backscatter targets on a diapirs, which are areas, mounds out in the deepest parts of the Gulf of Mexico. And lo and behold, if you, if you look at the data, know that that statement was incorrect. There is oil and gas out there in other parts of the world. We've had companies say, oh, this part's all oil and this part's gas. Well, how do you know that? Well, because we've drilled for oil out here and we don't think there's any oil. Once you get out there and you don't know, you don't know what you don't know until you go map it and sample it and then you come back, you put the data on their desk and they go, huh, hey, we were wrong man. I guess there's oil out there. And, and in other parts of the world where you know, we've done all our exploration close to land or in shallow water, we go out into the deepest part and nobody's ever drilled a well out there. So, you use the seep science to go to basically fill that in.Dan:00:51:09So in order to make money exploring for oil, you had to have organic matter. Originally it had to be, it had to be buried and cooked. Okay. So you needed temperature and pressure. You need time takes time to do that, then it needs to migrate. Okay. With the exception of unconventionals, we're not gonna talk about unconventional today with the exception of unconventionals, the hydrocarbons have to migrate, so they're concentrated so that you can go drill them and recover them. And they need to be in a reservoir.Dan:00:51:41And it has to be sealed. And so when we find a seep and all of that goes into what we talk about in oil exploration as the risk equation, like what's the probability of success? If you don't know whether you have a migration, you have maximum uncertainty and that flows through into your, into your risk. Well, if we find a seep, remember we've proven that there was organic matter. We've proven that it was buried and cooked for the right amount of time to create oil and gas and that it's migrated. We can't tell you anything about reservoir or seal or timing, but we can, we can materially impact the risk equation by finding a seep. Okay. So right before you drill a well, wouldn't you like to know whether or not there's oil or gas in the neighborhood? Cause a well can be a can be $100 million risk.Dan:00:52:34Okay. Usually you wouldn't, wouldn't you like to know? So remember when we started looking at seeps, 1977 for the hot vents 85 for the cold vents, we used human beings in a submersible. Later we shifted to using robotic submersibles where a human being sit on a ship in a control room, operate the ROV with joysticks, and you watch the videos come through. Well, those are great, but they're really expensive and you can't look at much sea floor on any given day because you're limited to how fast you can move across the sea floor and how much you can look at. So if we surveyed 2000 square kilometers in a day, we want to be able to evaluate that in less than 20 years. We want to be able to evaluate that in, you know, in a similar length of time, a day or two. So what we've done is we've shifted toward using what we, what's called a piston core, which, which is a six meter long, 20 foot long tube with about a thousand kilos on a 2,000 pounds.Dan:00:53:37And we lower it through the sea floor, operating it with a winch from a ship. And by putting a navigation beacon on that core, we can track it through the water column in real time. And if we have this high backscatter target on the sea floor, we can lower it to the water column. Once we're about fit and we're within 50 meters, 150 feet of the sea floor, we can see whether we're on target and then we let it go. When the pist- when the, it has a trigger weight on it, you can look this up, how to, how do piston cores work, that the core, lets go and it free falls that last little bit and it penetrates the sea floor. You haul it back to the surface. Now if it had gas hydrate in it, if it has oil in it, if it has gas in it, you can see it right away. when you pull the clear liner out of the core, and there it is, you know, whether or not you've got success, for most cores, there's no visual evidence of hydrocarbons that we sample that core tube, three different samples. One of them, we take a sample into what we call a gas can and seal that. And then we put a couple of hockey puck size chunks of sediment into Ziploc bags and everything goes into the freezer. And you ship that back, from the next port call. And about a month later you get a spreadsheet in your email, that says, oh, guess what you found methane, ethane, propane, butane, and Pentane. And look at this, you've got enough fluorescents that this is a guaranteed oil hit. So, again, you think about the time we map a couple thousand square kilometers a day.Dan:00:55:18We mapped for a month, we'll look the data for a month. We go out and core for a couple of weeks and a month later the Geochemistry starts flowing in. So real quick, multibeam as we've, as we've discussed as a way to get a detailed map of the sea floor, both the shape of it and the hardest roughness, acoustic properties. So any company laying a fiber optic cable across the world's oceans is acquiring multibeam data. Any, municipality that's worried about how deep their ports are and whether there's enough space for the ships to come in, is acquiring multibeam data. The corps of engineers who pays companies to dredge sand in the Mississippi River has to have a before and after multibeam a map, when MH370 went down and needed to be hunted for before they deployed the real high resolution tools. They needed a map of the sea floor and that was a part of the ocean that has never been mapped in detail before.Dan:00:56:23So most of the world's oceans have net have never been mapped in the detail that we're mapping them. We're using the tool to go hunt seeps. But there are all sorts of other uses of, of that multi beam technology. So, what are we looking for when we, when we, when we're looking for seeps, you know, what have, where have people found oil and gas leaking out of the sea floor? What does it look like? Or what are the targets? Well, if the gas burps out of the sea floor, it creates a pockmark. And those are targets, in many parts of the world, the Apennines of Italy, Azerbaijan, there are what we call mud volcanoes, where over pressured mud from deep down in the earth is kind of spewing out gently, slowly and continuously at the earth's surface. And lo and behold, it's bringing up oil and gas along with it. So mud volcanoes are known, oil and gas seeps onshore. Of course we're going to use them, offshore. Any place where we have a fault, you can create fracture permeability that might let oil and gas up. Faults can also seal, but a fault would be a good target, an anticline, a big fold that has a, can have seeps coming out of the crest of, it's similar to the seeps that were discovered early in late 18 hundreds. And in, in the USA, we can have areas where we have oil and gas leaking out of the sea floor, but it's not enough to change the shape of the sea floor. So we get high backscatter but no relief. Those, those are targets. So when we go out and we sample potential seep targets, we don't focus on only one type of target because that might only tell you one thing.Dan:00:58:04So we spread our, our targets around on different target types and we'll spread our targets around an area. Even if we, if we have more targets in one area than another area, we will spread our targets all the way around. Because the one thing that we've learned in decades of seep hunting is we're not as smart as we think we are. Nature always throws a curve ball. And you should, you should not think that you knew, know everything before you go into an area to analyze it because you might, you probably will find something that's, that startles you. And you know, as someone who's been looking at seeps since 1986, I continue to find things that we've never seen before. like our recent projects in the Gulf of Mexico, we found two target types that we've never seen before. The nearest analog on earth, on the surface is called a Pingo, which is when ice forms these really weird mountains up in the Arctic. And the one thing I can guarantee you that's not on the bottom of the world's ocean is an ice mound similar to what's forming the Arctic. But, but it had that shape. So we went and analyzed it and lo and behold, it told us something about the hydrocarbon system.Dan:00:59:12So those are all different types of target types so that the core comes back, we send it to the lab, we get first the very, what call the screening geochemistry, which is a light gases, methane through Pentane. We look at how fluorescent it is, cause that'll tell you whether or not you, you have a chance of of having a big oil hit. And we also look at what's called the chromatogram, which is a gas chromatography. And that tells us between about C15 and C36 C being the carbon length. So the, all your alkanes. And by looking at a Chromatogram, a trained professional will look that and say, oh, that's biodegraded oil. Or, oh, that's really fresh oil cause really fresh oil. All the, alkane peaks get smaller as they get bigger. So it has a very, very distinctive shape. Or they can look at it and they can tell you, you can, you can figure out the depositional environment. You can figure out whether the organic matter came from a lake, lacustrine, or maybe it's marine algal. We can say something about the age of it because flowering plants didn't evolve on earth till about the end of the age of dinosaurs. So at the end of the cretaceous, we got flowering plants. And so flowering plants create a molecule called oleanane. And so if there's no oleanane in the oil, that oil is older than cretaceous. So now we're telling something about a depositional environment.Dan:01:00:39We're saying something about the age, we can say the, the geochemist can say something about the maturity of the oil by looking at the geochemistry data. So all of this information, is now expanding what we know about what's in the subsurface and everything we know about seepage is that it is episodic in time. And it is distributed on earth's surface, not in kind of a random scattered, fashion. You get seepage above above a mud mud volcano, but for the surrounding hundred square kilometers around this mud volcano, we don't find any seep targets. Okay. So, our philosophy is that in order to find, in order to analyze the seats, we have to go find where we've got the highest probability of seepage and leakage. And that's where we target. So if you went out and just dropped a random grid over an area, you have a very, very low chance of hitting a concentrated site of seepage. And so, our hit rate, our success rate is, is high because we're using these biological and chemical indicators of seepage to help us guide where we sample. We have very precisely located sampling instruments this core with this acoustic beacon on it. And so we have, we have a very, very high success rates. And when we get hydrocarbons, we get enough hydrocarbons that we can do all of this advanced geochemistry on it.Duncan:01:02:13That's a good point Dan, even with- even without just doing a random grid of coring, piston coring has been done in the the US Gulf of Mexico for a long time now. And using seismic information, to target it. So like you say, looking for the faults and the anticlines and those type of features and very shallow anomalies on the seismic data. Even even guiding it with that information, typically a, a 5% hit rate might be expected. So you take two or 300 cores you know, you're going to get maybe 5%-10% hit rate, where you can actually look at the oils, and the geochemistry from the samples that you get. Using the multibeam, we were more like a 50 to 60% hit rate. And that's even with like Dan said, we're targeting some features where we know we're not going to find oil. so we could probably do even better than that if we, if we really focused in on finding oil. But obviously we're trying to assemble all the different types of seeps.Dan:01:03:11One of the things that we're asked and that we've heard from managers since we started working in the oil industry is what is this sea floor seep tell me about what's in my reservoir. And there's only, there have been very few, what we, what we call the holy grail studies published where a company has published the geochemistry at the reservoir level and the geochemistry on a seep that they can tie to that reservoir in the Gulf of Mexico. We collected dozens of seeps that can be tied to the same basin where there is known production. So in that Gulf of Mexico Dataset, a company that purchased that data and who had access to the reservoir oils could finally have a sufficient number of correlations that they could answer that question. What is the sea floor seep? Tell me about the reservoir. Because once you're comfortable in the Gulf of Mexico, that that seep is really telling you what's down in your reservoir.Dan:01:04:08Now you go into other parts of the world where you don't know what's in the reservoir before you drill and you find a good, a fresh seep with fresh oil right at the sea floor. Now you're confident that when you go down into the reservoir that you're going to find something, something similar. So let me talk a little bit about other things that you can do with these cores. And I'll start by kind of looking at these mud volcanoes. So this mud volcano, it had over pressured mud at depth. It came up to the surface of the earth and as it came up, it grabbed wall rock on its way up. So by analyzing a mud volcano, if we then go look at, say the microfossils, in all the class in a mud volcano, we can tell you about the age of the rocks that mud volcano came through without ever drilling a well.Dan:01:04:54So you can look at, at the, at the vitrinite reflectance, you can look at the maturity of the, of these wall rocks that are brought to you on the surface. You can look at heavy minerals. And when we go out and we do field geology, you know, you remember you're a geologist has a rock pick they and they go, the geologist goes up to the cliff and, and she or he chips a rock out and they take it back to lab and take a look at it. And that's how they tell something about what's in the outcrop. Well, it's hard to do field geology on the bottom of the ocean using a multibeam map and - acoustically guided core. We can now go and do field work on the, on the ocean floor and expand our knowledge of what's going on in a field area.Duncan:01:05:42So maybe it's worth talking a bit Dan about how we're jointly using these technologies or this group of technologies, at TGS, to put together projects. So the, I think generally the approach has been to look at, basin wide study areas. So we're not just carving off little blocks and doing, one of these, one of these projects over, over a particular block. We'll take on the whole Gulf of Mexico. So we, we broke it up into two. We looked at the Mexico side and the US side. But in total, I think it was nearly a million square kilometers that we covered and, about 1500 cores that I think we took, so we were putting these packages together in different basins all over the world, whether they're in mature basins like the Gulf of Mexico or frontier areas like places we're working in West Africa at the moment. But I think we're, we're looking to put more and more of these projects together. I think the technology applies to lots of different parts of the world. Both this side of the Atlantic and the eastern side of the Atlantic as well.Dan:01:06:44So since 2014, five years, we've mapped, we as in One and TGS have mapped, I believe over 1,250,000 square kilometers. We've acquired over 2000 cores. Oh. We also measure heat flow. We can use - is how the earth is shedding heat. And it's concentrated in some areas in, and you want to know heat flow if you're looking for oil, cause you got to know how much your organic matter has been cooked. So we've, we've collected thousands of cores, at dramatic success rates and we've used them. We've used these projects in areas of known hydrocarbon production, like the shallow water Gulf of Mexico, but we've, we've extended out into areas of completely unknown hydrocarbon production, the deep water Gulf of Mexico, the east coast of Mexico over in the Caribbean. We're looking at northwest Africa, Senegal, The Gambia, Guinea-Bissau, and the area, that's a jointly operated AGC. And we're looking at other frontier areas where we can apply this to this technology in concert with traditional tools, multichannel, seismic, gravity and magnetics to help, our clients get a better feel for the hydrocarbon prospectivity. You've got to have the seismic cause you've got to see what the subsurface looks like. But the, the multibeam which leads to seep targets, which leads ultimately to the geochemistry is what then affects the risk going forward into a basin.Duncan:01:08:20That's a good point, Dan. We don't see this as a technology that replaces seismic or gravity or magnetics or anything else, but it's another piece in the puzzle. And it's a very complimentary piece as well.Dan:01:08:31It is. And any areas you could argue that probably the best places to go look are where, your colleagues and other companies have said, oh, there's no oil there. Well, how do you know? Well, we don't think there's oil because we don't think there was a organic matter or we don't think that it was cooked enough. Well, you don't know until you go there and you find, so if you found one seep in that field area that had live oil and gas in it, you would know that that premise was incorrect. And now you have a competitive edge, you have knowledge that others don't and that can, that can affect your exploration, strategy in your portfolio. we haven't talked about cost. Multi beam is arguably one of the least expensive tools per square kilometer in the geophysical toolkit. Just because we don't need chase boats. We're not towing the streamer, we're going 10 knots. We're covering a couple of thousand square kilometers a day. So it's, it's, it's a tool that's useful in frontier exploration. It is complimentary to seismic, and it's a tool that, that you can use to guide where you want to spend money and how much money if you, if we survey a huge area and let's say half of it has no evidence of oil and gas and half of it has excellent hydrocarbon seeps, both oil and gas. I would argue that as a company you might want to spend less money on the first and more money on the second. You migh

What was originally supposed to be a tribute to Richard Linklater's new film Where'd you go Bernadette (2019) instead turned into just a one-off episode still inspired by the now August released film. Based on that initial idea, Jonathan (@berkreviews), Corey (@coreyrstarr), and Michael (@servermonkey) looked through their movie viewing history to pick out the Top Five Movie Mysteries. No real limitations were set as to what movies were eligible and, as a result, quite a diverse list appeared. Jonathan's list: 5. A Simple Favor (2018) 4. Memento (2000) 3. Rashomon (1950) 2. Brick (2005) 1. Rear Window (1954) Corey's list: 5. Clue (1985) 4. Scream (1996) 3. Shutter Island (2010) 2. The Others (2001) 1. The Prestige (2006) Michael's list: 5. The General's Daughter (1999) 4. Identity (2003) 3. Malice (1993) 2. The Crimson Rivers (2000) 1. Lost Highway (1997) --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/berkreviewscom-moviecasts/support

Where'd you go? I miss you so. Corn The Pear is back after a couple of weeks off to review a couple of dodgy performances and preview another probable dodgy performance against GWS. All smiles and positivity!!!

Cora has a new book out, "Ferocious Warrior." Where'd she get the sword she posed with for the cover photo? What are the dangers of using fat cream? How'd she make money as a kid growing up in the megachurch Potter's House? And, most important, who is her favorite Braxton sister? This one is worth at least eight stars.

Get groovy and rock out to these new jaaaaams! xoxo 00:00 - Intro 01:15 - Introducing New Vibrations 02:08 - Flash - Gauche 06:11 - Copper Woman - Gauche 09:57 - Dirty Jacket - Gauche 13:52 - Again - Gliterer 16:04 - Destiny - Gliterer 18:31 - Mic Break 19:22 - Kingpin of Lost Souls - illiterates 21:48 - Red Han Solo Cup - illiterates 24:57 - Gravity - Versus 28:32 - Mummified - Versus 34:12 - Pin - Hippo Campus 38:10 - Kentucky - Hippo Campus 42:19 - Outro 44:52 - Don't Travel Far - U.S. Highball 47:38 - Where'd the Century Go? - U.S. Highball 50:21 - Snow is Falling in Manhattan - Purple Mountains 56:25 - Storyline Fever - Purple Mountains 61:12 - Finish

We're back with another round of celebrity mysteries! Where'd this celebrity go? Who did that celebrity con? You know...THE USUAL! Oh, and we recently set up a Ko-Fi page. If you enjoy Uncovered the Podcast, please consider supporting our lil baby pod by buying us a coffee or two. We'll give you a personal shout-out on the show! All donations will go toward keepin' us caffeinated...and maybe upgrading our equipment a smidge. TIA!  On this week's show --  Katie keeps the US Women's Soccer obsession going... and Beth chats about the boy bands that said "Bye, Bye, Bye" to Lou Pearlman.  SHOW NOTES: BUY US A COFFEE!Autographs on eBay#GetOutsideHope Solo's statsWedding bells for Jeremy & HopeArticle about Hope's arrestZika chantLou Pearlman's bookBye, Bye, ByeMore on the Trans Continental Airlines fraudChurch Street StationThe Boy Band ConSwindled For pictorial evidence related to this episode, make sure you follow us on Instagram.  Care to weigh in? Shoot us an email - uncoveredthepodcast (at) gmail (dot) com   Music: Kiaro di luna by Intiman

Born in Connecticut, and now residing in Connecticut, Daniel has been involved in the entertainment business since he was a fat 3rd grader. At 8 years old Dan starred as Paul the Paleontologist in the off-broadway smash: "Where'd the Dinosaurs Go?!" and played drums in various funk and punk bands over the years. A self-confessed film geek, Daniel finally got out from behind the drum kit and got involved in stand-up in 2009. His big break came when he met the lead singer of Soul Asylum at a Bar in New Haven, Connecticut. In the last year, Daniel has shared the stage with some of the funniest people in comedy & would probably like to share your stage too.

ALRIGHT, MOTHER FUCKERS! For the two of you who keep hounding us, we are FINALLY releasing the last season of BaBaT that we recorded in November (lolz). We are here for it. But you know who isn't? Bernadette. This season on BaBaT, we are talking about "Where'd you go, Bernadette?" Just as elusive as Carmen Sandiego, Bernadette is missing and it's up to her ten (fourteen?) year old child to find her. It's a real Where's Waldo situation. So let us start the season like all the others and GET TO THOSE REVIEWS! GET A FREE AUDIO BOOK AND 30 DAY FREE TRIAL TO AUDIBLE, THE INTERNET’S LEADING AUDIO BOOK PROVIDER! http://www.audibletrial.com/BaBaT YouTube: COMING SOON Art by Kaitlin Hartung: http://khartgraphics.com Music by Kevin MacLeod: http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Kevin_MacLeod/

Super Mario Bros 2 is the oddball of the NES Mario Bros games. Along with Super Mario Sunshine, it's the oddball of the entire Super Mario series. But you know what? I like oddballs.*   *I rewrote that about ten times, and that was the least creepy sounding thing I could come up with...   I like Super Mario Bros 2. A lot. I owned Super Mario Bros 1 & 3 as a kid, but never got my hands on the second one. So any chance I had to play it, I jumped all over it. I couldn't wrap my little mind around it! You could pick up bad guys and throw them at each other! (Before picking up Koopa Troopa shells, this was crazy). There were weird potions that took you into an alternate universe, and that's the only place you could find mushrooms. Stars floated up from the bottom of the screen. You could play as Princess Toadstool (old school) and Toad!?!? Where'd this game come from????   As we would all later find out, it came from Japan. Because they decided that the kids over in North America that played Nintendo weren't good enough to play the game they originally wanted to release as Super Mario Bros 2. And after playing that original sequel (released everywhere as The Lost Levels years later), there were right.    But this episode isn't about the sequel we didn't get (there's already an episode of the show about that game, The Lost Levels - Episode 26 if you're interested!), it's about the one we did. Super Mario Bros 2 is a beauty of a game. It introduced gameplay mechanics to the Mario Bros series that still exist today, like Birdo, Shy Guys, and the Princess's floating ability. It's still as fun to play in 2019 as it was in 1988, and it's about damned time it got it's own episode of the podcast.    My buddy/fellow comedian/improv king David Rae is my guest this week, and we have a great chat about the Cousin Oliver of the Super Mario Bros series; Super Mario Bros 2. Enjoy!

Born in Connecticut, and now residing in Connecticut, Daniel has been involved in the entertainment business since he was a fat 3rd grader. At 8 years old Dan starred as Paul the Paleontologist in the off-broadway smash: "Where'd the Dinosaurs Go?!" and played drums in various funk and punk bands over the years. A self-confessed film geek, Daniel finally got out from behind the drum kit and got involved in stand-up in 2009. His big break came when he met the lead singer of Soul Asylum at a Bar in New Haven, Connecticut. In the last year, Daniel has shared the stage with some of the funniest people in comedy & would probably like to share your stage too.