Podcasts about amy thank

With her first birth, Amy hired a doula and planned to birth at a birth center. During labor, her baby kept having late heart decels which led to transferring to the hospital. At the hospital, Amy stalled at 9.5 centimeters. Baby was having a hard time descending and continued having decels. Amy chose to have a Cesarean and while she was at peace with the experience, she knew she wanted another chance at a vaginal birth. Amy proactively prepared for her VBAC by educating herself and working with her provider to find common ground. Her labor progressed well, Amy coped beautifully, and was able to push out her 10-pound baby! Amy talks about how recovering from birth can be difficult no matter what type of birth you have. Our VBAC Link Doula, Desiree, joins as Meagan's co-host and touches on the importance of breathwork. As a licensed therapist, Amy also talks about how she uses breathwork with her own clients. “Practice it before you are in labor because then it's easier to do while you're in labor.”Desiree's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, Women of Strength. It is an amazing day to listen to another VBAC story. We have our friend, Amy, from Massachusetts coming your way sharing her VBAC story with you. Then we have one of our VBAC Link doulas, Desiree, with us as well. Welcome, ladies. Desiree: Hi.Amy: Thank you. Meagan: Hello. Thank you so much for being with me today. We do have that Review of the Week so I'm going to actually turn the time over to Desiree and read that. Desiree: Yeah, so the Review of the Week this week is provided by Ashley on the VBAC Doula course which I am very familiar with. I am so excited to read this one. Ashley says, “TOLAC/VBACs should be treated just like any other birthing person but there is certain preparation and information that needs to be offered to them. Your course covered that. The value is held in your careful recognition of how to best support our clients who are doing a TOLAC. I cannot praise you two enough for the fear-release activity. Honestly, it is something I can apply to even myself before and after birth and even in life in general. Thank you for that. It has already helped three of my VBAC clients.” Meagan: Oh, that's amazing. That just gave me the chills. I love that. Fear release is so important. Women of Strength, if you are listening, we have that in our course because we truly believe in it. I think fear release in anything in life. We could just be scared to go in and take a test and fear release of that. But when it comes to birth specifically, I don't know if both of you would agree, but we've got to do some fear releases and let go and also process the past, right? Desiree: Absolutely. Yes. I would say it's good for everybody going into birth, but definitely, if you're a VBAC or going for a TOLAC because you take your previous birth experiences into the room with you and if you haven't done the work, then you are just setting yourself up for roadblocks. Meagan: It's so true. I will admit that I did fear releases and I did lots of processing and I still had little bits of bouts of roadblocks in my VBA2C birth. That was really hard, but I was so grateful for the knowledge of how to do that fear release and work through it in those moments in my labor and because I had already done so much beforehand, the little roadblocks that were there even though they were roadblocks, I was able to get through them so much faster and more efficiently. Okay, Ms. Amy. Thank you so much for joining us. Amy: Sure. Meagan: Yes. We would love to turn the time over to you. Amy: Okay. So I actually gave birth to my two kids and then I gave birth in two different states. My C-section story was from when I lived in Massachusetts then I moved back to Minnesota and had my son which was my VBAC and now we are back in Massachusetts. Yeah, so with my daughter, I hired a doula. I gave birth and wanted to give birth at a birthing center that was outside of the hospital but it was connected to the hospital system but it was run by midwives and more holistic, more of what I was aiming for. Just like with your first births, you have all of the plans and I think partly that is some anxiety mitigation of if I feel like I have a plan then maybe I know what to expect. I worked with a really amazing doula. We didn't take a birthing class through the hospital. She did that education and I was feeling relatively prepared as much as you can with a first birth. I had a week's worth of prodromal labor. I always am very cautious. I always call it prodromal labor because I feel like the term false labor is so demoralizing when you're in it like this isn't real labor and I'm like, No, it is. It just isn't progressing the way I want it to. Meagan: Well, but it's still your body working. I think that's what a lot of the time we forget. It's not progressing the way we want but our body is still very much working and making progress behind the scenes whether or not a number of centimeters or a number of effacement is reflecting. We are still doing work and making progress. Amy: Yes, exactly. But my prodromal labor liked to happen only at night so I was going off of probably three or four nights of really not sleeping through the night. Again, as a first-time mom, I didn't really know. I was up with adrenaline because I didn't really know 100% what I was experiencing. I did stop going to work. I was going to work up until labor and then I just stopped going to work the last couple of days because I was like, I'm not sleeping. I'm stressed and tired.I went into labor the night before my daughter's due date and felt the contractions getting a little bit stronger around 10:30. I went to bed. I woke up around 12:30 and told my husband, “Okay, I think this is really actually happening now.” We labored through the night. At 4:00 AM, I called my doula. We met up at the birth center. I was already 6 centimeters. I was obviously so thrilled about that. I was like, “We're going to have this baby by mid-morning. It's going to be great.” Then they started checking her heartbeat. From the beginning, she was having a lot of decels and they kept monitoring it, monitoring it, and monitoring it for 20 minutes which again, wasn't really the plan that I was going to be sitting in bed monitoring her heart rate the whole time. I wanted to be up and moving around but they just couldn't get her heart rate to stabilize at that point so they moved me over to the hospital then. It's a birth center but they are across the street from the hospital so they literally put me into a wheelchair and rolled me across the road. That's when all of the interventions started. From there, I progressed I think to about 8 centimeters but she was having those decels off and on the whole time. Then I think we ended up getting an epidural. I wasn't planning to but I got an epidural about that time. I don't know what time of day this was, maybe noon just because it had been a while now. I was tired and they were like, “Maybe if you rest a little bit, we can get her into a better position or something.” Really, what ended up happening was because of her decels, they wanted me to be on continuous monitoring which made it so I couldn't move around as much because the nurse didn't know how to apply the wireless ones. That happened so it was just one thing after another and my doula was great. She was really supportive. We did try a few different positions, but it was like every time I got in a position that felt good, they were like, “Oh no, we lost her heartbeat. We have to have you move again.” I think the process was frustrating. I did get the epidural. I got all the way to 9.5 centimeters dilated and then we just sort of stalled. And then of course probably around 5:00, this had been close to 20 hours of labor and they were like, “Yeah, I don't know. We could try a few more positions but I think this is just going to keep happening and now we are worried that she's going to get distressed.” So it wasn't really an emergency C-section at all. They were like, “Here's what we think. We'll give you a few minutes to talk about it with your husband and doula and see what you guys think.” It was definitely hard. I was discouraged and frustrated by that but at that point, I just wanted her out. Now that I've read, and when I was listening to The VBAC Link and listening to so many other stories where we probably could have given it more time and all of these other things, they did a C-section and they actually found that her umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck twice. She never really descended into the birth canal fully. She never really engaged in my pelvis. Part of me wonders if it was partly that where she had that umbilical cord and that was going to be tough for her through the birth canal. I don't really know. But she was healthy and everything was good. I honestly didn't feel super traumatized by that experience but obviously I wish it had gone a different way. That was my first birth and then about two years later, well, my daughter was 2.5 when I got pregnant with my son. I was the middle of the pandemic. It was 2020. Is that when I got pregnant? Yeah. It was the fall of 2020. I definitely started looking into VBAC and found your podcast and was like, I would like to really try for a vaginal birth this time around. I think what was challenging about that and as you are talking about going in with fear is that I felt like even though it was my second baby, I felt like I was going through the process like a first birth because I never pushed. I never got to that point with my daughter so I felt like I had that anxiety almost like I was going into my first birth again. That was hard for me, I think, mentally. But we had moved to Minnesota at that point so unfortunately, I didn't get to use the same doula that I had before. I found another doula and I think she had a lot of knowledge and I think she did a good job but I think overall, we just didn't connect as well emotionally. Honestly, I realized that was almost more important to me. Obviously, knowledgeable and certified is good but not feeling like we were always connected, I struggled with that at times. Meagan: Sorry, not to interrupt you but I was just going to say that can impact the way you are feeling and walking into any experience so that connection is really, really key. Amy: Yes. Yeah. I'm a therapist. That's my job and so obviously, I say that to my clients all the time about therapy too. I never got to the point where I was like, Oh, maybe I should look for somebody else, but I think looking back, sometimes I wish I had. But during the labor and stuff, I think she was great. Yeah. It was different than my first time. So yeah, I did a lot of research about Spinning Babies. My doula helped me with some of those exercises. It was stuff I was aware of before, but I didn't look into it as much. Then one of the things I was curious around because when I had my C-section, my OB was like, “Oh, well you have a flat pelvis so it is going to be hard for you to ever have a baby vaginally” is what she said to me. My doula was like, “Well, you know. Around pelvis shapes and stuff like that, that's a very gray area. Generally speaking, we don't subscribe to that because your pelvis is moving and it isn't a shape.” But I was curious about that so I looked into that through Spinning Babies and some of those other resources and about how babies engage in your pelvis and how does baby engage to progress labor.Meagan: Yeah, different stages. The baby can be in sometimes different– I mean, we all have different shapes of pelvises so the baby has to come in different positions and sometimes that even means posterior so sometimes we do all the things to avoid posterior babies, and then our babies still go in posterior but that's actually because of the way our pelvis is shaped or the way it was that day that our babies needed to get into the pelvis in that position. Sometimes they can kind of hang up until we find those positions that can help them navigate down. Amy: Yes. I mentioned that to my doula and we both did some research on it because I think that was part of the issue with my daughter. There wasn't a consistent engagement. Even though my labor progressed for the most part, I was sort of wondering about that. I also was– I can't remember when this exactly happened but I think around 32 weeks, I started measuring big. Of course, my OB who I would say was VBAC tolerant. I wouldn't say she was VBAC-supportive. I did like her quite a bit but she was like, “Okay, your baby is measuring big and because of your history–” she goes through the whole, “here's your percentage of having a successful VBAC.” I'm 5'9”. I'm larger. I'm not a petite person so even if I had been, I don't subscribe to that because of listening to VBAC podcasts and stuff, your body can birth a large baby, but also, I wasn't as worried about it because I know that sometimes those projections are completely off and so it was part of that process of learning to respectfully disagree with a medical professional who I did have respect for and did feel like they had some expertise but to say that we don't have to agree on everything for me to work with you. That was a huge turning point for me just in my life in general working with medical professionals of, I don't have to completely throw everything you say out the window but I also don't have to agree with everything that you say and we can respectfully disagree on that issue. So I was like, “Respectfully, I'm not going to schedule a C-section at that point.” She didn't pressure me at all. She was like, “I understand. Let's move forward with the plan.” That's what we did. I think that was empowering. As we moved closer to my due date, he was big. I was not sure at the time, but I was like, I'm going to go into labor early. That was a mental block for me. Then as it gets closer and closer and closer to my due date, I'm going out of my mind just losing patience. I'm not a good, patient-waiting person as it is so I'm having prodromal labor for the whole week before my due date and at that point, I actually did schedule a C-section for the following week because I needed mentally an out-date. That was what it was in my mind of, Okay. If this goes on for another week, I have an out, even though that's not what I wanted. I think honestly mentally, it took a weight off my shoulders which is counterintuitive to what you would think when everything in me was working toward this VBAC then I was like, No. A couple of days before he was born, I needed that second date in my mind somewhere. Meagan: Well– oh, sorry. Go ahead, Desiree. Desiree: I was going to say I think it actually makes a lot of sense. You say it's counterintuitive, but you're right. We spend so much time and energy thinking about achieving our VBACs and having our babies. Sometimes having– well, even if I don't do all the things, I can still have my baby and then relaxation happens. That's when we see labor starting to take off for a lot of people. Amy: Yep. Yeah, I definitely think that was a piece of the puzzle. Yeah, and I think it was helpful.So yeah, I'm trying to think of how this went. Yeah, so we were doing some Spinning Babies things. We did some side-lying releases all throughout the pregnancy and then on June 4th which was actually my son's due date, having prodromal labor all week and then I felt like there was a little bit more intensity in the contractions I was having that morning so I sent my daughter off to her grandparents' and was like, Okay. I'm just going to focus today. I'm going to focus on getting my body in gear. It wasn't that I was in this mindset of, I'm going to make myself go into labor today, it was just this intuition around I needed to be able to focus on what was going on. We had that plan that my daughter would go stay with her grandparents while I go into labor and I thought that maybe she was just going to go earlier than I thought she would because I wasn't in any kind of active labor. Then I had my doula come over at 10:00 AM and we did more different exercises. I can't remember all of the ones we did because what would happen was that I would have contractions 15 minutes apart, 15 minutes apart and then they would just stop and that would be the end of it and then the next day, the same thing. Or they would be 10 minutes, 12 minutes, 20 minutes– nothing consistent so what we found was if I laid on my left side in the flying cowgirl position, then my contractions were more intense and more consistent. It was again this think of, in my mind I was like, While I'm in active labor, I'm going to be walking around and trying all of these different positions and all of this different stuff, and what I ended up doing is honestly just laying in bed and watching TV in that position almost all day. So again, it was this thing of that's not what I've heard is helpful or whatever but I just think that was where he needed to be to engage in my pelvis at that stage. Then every hour or so I'd get up. I'd do curb walking. I would just get out, walk around, and be active but it was way more laying down than I ever planned to do. You hear that's not how you get your body engaged in labor, but that was what worked for me so that was an interesting, Release what you think is going to work for you and do what your body is telling you is working for you. But it was actually kind of nice. It was relaxing. My daughter wasn't there. It was the summer. We had the air conditioning on in that room. My husband brings me a bubble tea or whatever and I was like, This is actually not so bad. This is okay. Contractions were probably 15, 10 minutes apart that whole day then in the evening is when it ramped up. I turned toward active labor and we called my doula again at 8:00 PM and the contractions were very intense. I was leaning on an exercise ball. My husband was trying to do some counterpressure to get me through it and then she did– and again, this is something where my doula and I were not always on the same page, but I was explaining to her my contractions. “They are about a minute and half long. They were maybe 7-8 minutes apart,” and the first thing she said was, “Oh, well that contraction isn't long enough to progress you at all,” or something like that. She said something about my labor process and it was so discouraging because I felt like I had taken so long to get to that point that when she said that, I was like, Oh, so all of this was for nothing. I know that's not what she meant but I remember just feeling very discouraged by that comment. So that was tough. Then she did the abdominal lift and tuck. I do feel like that helped get my son into my pelvis and more engaged in my pelvis because from that point, contractions were two minutes apart. They were very intense. I ended up signaling. I was like, “I'm ready to go to the hospital.” We agreed to labor at home as long as possible, but I was like, “I think this is the time.” Again, my doula was like, “I think we should wait longer.” My contractions were two minutes apart at that point and I was like, “I don't think we should. I want to go.” I'm glad we did actually because that ended up being the right time. But I remember rolling into the hospital at 12:01 AM and I remember my husband saying, “Well, I guess we're not going to be having the baby on his due date,” because my daughter was born on her due date. I was in active labor on my son's due date and then we just missed it. I remember being like, “That's true. We're not going to make it but that's okay.” So yeah, we walk into the hospital and go through triage. My water breaks while we are in triage and of course, they bring out their little testing stick and they're like, “We're going to make sure this is actually your water breaking.” I was like, “Okay, but I've never wet myself during a pregnancy. This is what it is.” Then we go back in the labor and delivery room and the doctor who is on call is not my doctor. I find out later that this is the most anxious, not-nice-to-work-with OB in that practice. So that was tough. I could tell from the beginning she was just very brusk. She didn't have a great bedside manner at all. She was like, “I see that he's measuring big so we're going to make sure that–” she was really worried about shoulder dystocia. I was very glad again that I had read up on that and that I was not concerned about that. So she was like– they had big birthing tubs there but they don't let you birth in them. They just let you labor in them. I was in there and feeling like I wanted to push for a while and I remember I went to the bathroom and she comes in the room and she's like, “Well, let's get you on the table.” I'm like, “I'm just going to the bathroom.” I don't know if she thought that I was going to try to have the baby without her or something, I don't know. Her whole vibe was very anxious. That was hard. That was definitely discouraging. I think at that point, I actually had asked for an epidural. Both times, I asked for an epidural at transition and then once I'm through transition, I'm fine. They didn't come in time and they checked me and I was already at 10 centimeters so they were like, “Okay, it's time to push. We don't have time for the epidural.” I'm like, “Okay, this is what it is.” That was okay and then I pushed for about an hour on my back which was again, not my choice but the OB was like, “No, I need to be able to see what's going on. I don't want you in any other position,” because again, she was so worried about shoulder dystocia and him being big. Halfway through pushing, she was like, “Okay, you can try on all fours.” But at that point, I was so exhausted that I couldn't even imagine myself getting on all fours. I was like, “That ship has sailed.” That was tough because I had planned the whole time to try to push at least for a little while on all fours because again, knowing about big babies and how that can be a really good position for that, but I just didn't feel like I could advocate for myself. I don't know. In both of my births, when I get in labor, I go very inward. I think having a doula was great, but both times I don't think my doula was super outwardly advocating. But again, maybe they were looking for a signal from me and I was just in my own world. It was okay though. I pushed for an hour. He came out just fine. It was that euphoric moment of, Oh my gosh. That just happened. That was crazy. Having only pushed for an hour felt great with my first vaginal birth. They took him out and they weighed him and he was 10 pounds, 4 ounces. Meagan: Yeah!Amy: Yes. It was so funny because the nurses were trying to guess. They were like, “9 pounds. He's big.” Yes. I felt great and actually, it was funny. The next morning, my OB came in. She was on then. She comes in and she goes, “Well, he was big.” I was like, “And I did get him out, so we were both right.” We were able to laugh about that. Meagan: I love that you said that. Like, “Hey, I was right too.” Amy: Yes. Yes. Yeah, and I felt like it was a good ending. I felt like she was like, “Yep, you're right. You did.” I did tear. I had two second-degree tears which again was maybe not as bad as I expected with a baby that size, but it was no fun. I think that's the other thing that I talk about often is either way, with a C-section or with that kind of a birth, I felt like it took me about two weeks to be able to feel like I could even walk normally. I think the difference with the vaginal birth is that I do feel like I made improvements every day where I gradually got better whereas with the C-section, it was really hard for two full weeks and then it was like then I felt better. It was a different recovery but I would say– and I think other people have talked about this here before but either way, it can be a tough recovery. Meagan: For sure. For sure. Amy: It's hard because my sister had two vaginal births and her second one, she was up and walking. We walked a mile when she was two weeks postpartum and I'm like, gosh. I couldn't even walk down the block at two weeks postpartum after my son. I think obviously not to compare yourself one or the other but I had a big baby and there was some trauma down there and that takes time as well. But it was a great feeling and I think that obviously, it ended up really good. Yeah. That's my story. Meagan: I love it. Thank you for sharing it and congratulations. I think that it's so hard to sometimes have providers who will meet you in the middle. It sounds like you both met in the middle along the way and I think in a perfect world, I just wish that this would happen where providers would meet us a little bit more but there are so many providers who won't even come in. We talk about it all the time with finding the right provider and if the provider is not right for you and if they are not willing to budge at all and meet you in the middle or be a part of the conversations where you were saying things and she was like, “You know what? Okay. Okay. Let's go back to the original plan then.” She said her piece. She said her suggestions. You were like, “No. I don't feel comfortable with this. This is not what I want,” and she was willing to be like, “Okay. Okay. All right. Let's go back to that original plan.” Look what would have happened if you weren't able to advocate and stand up for yourself and be like, “Actually–”, it could have been a very different outcome. Amy: Yes. Yes. For sure. Meagan: Desiree, do you have anything to share on that just as a birth worker or anything to share as far as tips go when we've got situations like that where maybe it seems like it could get really combative but it doesn't have to be? Desiree: Yeah. I mean, I just want to commend you, Amy, for being able to voice your opinion in that way because I think that's really hard for a lot of us to stand up in spaces with doctors who we think are in a position of authority. Yes, they have experience, but no one lives in your body. No one has the lived experience of your body except you. That makes you an equal expert in what's happening. I think it's great that providers bring advice and recommendations and they have a plan for what they want to see, but I think a truly great provider does meet you at least halfway. Ideally, you're right Meagan, they're coming a little bit more than halfway, but I mean, it's nice to hear that your provider was willing to listen to you and follow your plan and probably have hers in her back pocket as the fallback. But that's just great that you were able to advocate for yourself in that way. It doesn't always have to be combative, right? It can be as simple as, “Thank you for your advice. I appreciate your expertise. This is what I'd like to try and if it doesn't work, then we can try something else.” Amy: Yeah. I think that I was feeling anxious about that too and this big realization of, I do. I like her. I trust her as a doctor. I feel like we're on the same page, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything she says and it also doesn't mean I have to fire her and find a new provider. Again, there is a happy medium there. You're right. I was taught that doctors have this authority. They know. They go to years of schooling. Of course, they do. But also keeping in mind that their worldview and perspective might be very different and the lens that they are looking at this through is very different than mine and how do I keep this in mind that they have this medical perspective of what they've seen. They've seen the worst of the worst medical scenarios but also to keep in mind that there's this whole other worldview around that so that ws helpful for me. Meagan: Yeah. That was definitely something that stood out to me with your form. It was, “Disagreeing with a provider doesn't mean that you can't work with them.” You said it in your story too. That is so, so true. It doesn't mean we can't work with them and if it gets to a point where it's like, “Okay, there is no working with this,” and it is actually not working, then we can make a different choice. We can change things up, find a different provider, look at our VBAC Link provider list, and see if there is someone else. But if you can work with it and everything is feeling good and there are a couple of things but we are working together, that is so great. That is so great. Amy: Yeah. Meagan: Awesome. Well, I just wanted to let Desiree share a couple of tips. I love when we have our VBAC Link doulas come on because it's so fun to get different tips and different perspectives from other doulas around the world. Desiree is in California with Be_Earth_Mama. Is that right? Desiree: Yeah. My husband gives me a hard time about this all the time because I guess nobody gets it but it's Birth Mama. Meagan: Oh, I thought it was Be Earth Mama. Desiree: That's what he says. Meagan: That makes so much sense, so much sense. She is in California. Remind us exactly where in California because California is ginormous. Desiree: California is ginormous. I am in the San Francisco Bay Area so Northern California. Meagan: And you do birth and education. Desiree: I do birth and education primarily. Meagan: You do webinars and all the things, right? Desiree: I do webinars. I do online classes. I teach in-person classes. I'm getting ready to start a prenatal belly dance class that I think is going to be in-person for now but might go to virtual if there is an interest so all things birth preparation essentially. That's my niche. Meagan: Really, really cool. Awesome. I know there were a couple different topics that you were talking about and I was like, ooh. Breathing and active relaxing. Tell us all the things. Desiree: Yeah, it's one of my favorite topics and I feel like it's one that is on the list but it's low on the list because you think about breathing. Why do you need to practice breathing? You just naturally do it but if you've been in labor, you know that when that intensity starts to pick up, breathing is the first thing that goes out the window so having a strong breathing practice is the first step to staying really calm and grounded in labor. But even beyond that, I think having a practice is about the process and I think especially for me in my VBAC journey, it sounds like Amy was sort of like this where contractions start and they stop and they start and you are in this waiting game. Is your body going to do the thing or is it not going to do the thing? What's wrong? I feel like having the practice to fall back on gives you a way to stay grounded and centered in your body as you are waiting for labor. So it's two-fold. Keeping your body nice and relaxed while you're actually working through labor but giving yourself the time to be nourishing yourself in those last precious days and weeks leading up to labor I think is almost more important. Something that I work with all of my clients on is having an established breathing practice. It's not about the breathing technique because there are so many different ones out there. There is the up breathing. Up breathing is my favorite, breathe in for 4, exhale for 8. There is box breathing where you breathe in for 4, hold for 4, exhale for 4, and hold that for 4 counts. And for some people, it's just simply breathing as slow and controlled as possible. I think it's about finding something that feels natural and intuitive to you that you can lean into but it's about finding time and practicing really dropping into your body and dropping out of everything that's going on around you and playing into your senses with that. That's something I like to talk about to my clients is hacking your body. Building muscle memory because it's so hard to relax and stay calm when you're going through surges, the contractions are really building, and telling you to stay relaxed is not really going to work. Nobody wants to hear that. But if you have this practice and if you've built in sensory cues– I like recommending people to pick a birth scent either an essential oil or a candle or a lotion, picking a song or a sound, it could be even a meditation track and setting aside just 2-3 minutes every day to run through whatever your breathing technique is with your scent or your sound, maybe you have something to hold onto and practice just actively relaxing every single part of your body through the process of breathing when you get into labor, your body is going to remember that once you launch into this breathing routine and you put on your birth scent and you have your sound or your meditation track playing, your body is naturally going to relax because you've told it that that's what this time is for. I think it's a really special thing that we can do for ourselves to give ourselves this time and this practice where we are just nourishing the deepest parts of us. It's of course helpful for labor, but I think it's also a helpful practice to take into postpartum and into parenthood. I can say I've been doing this for 5 years. My oldest daughter is 5 years old and I still do it every day. I have to run through my breathing practices. Yeah. I think it's especially important for VBAC mamas to have this type of self-care routine. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that so much. Like you said, it just becomes intuitive if we can practice this so much and instill this into our lives, it just becomes intuitive in that labor journey. There are going to be times where we were talking about roadblocks and stuff earlier, but those might come in and breathing in itself is something that can get us through those things. When you talked about the box breathing, I've done that before and I have this weird thing when I do box breathing. My body moves and I'm creating a square. Desiree: I do too. We don't have our cameras up, but I have to do the square. Meagan: Same. I do a square. I literally draw a square with my whole body and my torso and everything looks like a tree swaying in the wind and I can just feel it. I literally, the relaxation from head to toe just comes in. Like she said, there's not any specific way. You don't have to choose one way. You can use them all. You can use anything, just really, really, really having active relaxation practices before you go into labor is so good. And I think it can help along the way. Even when we have a provider who comes at us with, “Hey, we're going to meet you in the middle,” it still can be in our head. We can be like, Okay, she said this. I said this. This is what we're going to do. You've just got that whole conversation and it's just that you're breathing through that and you're processing that and you're going to apply it later on in labor. I don't know. I just love breathing so much. Desiree: I do too. I think it's the most important tool that we have that everybody has. It's the most powerful tool that's available to us. Meagan: We have to do it to live. Desiree: Mhmm. Meagan: We just have to. It's intuitive. We have to do it and we talk about intuition here and tuning into our intuition. If we are really, really tuning into our intuition, that breathing is part of that. Then our minds and our bodies can respond. Amy, did you ever do any breathing or anything like that? Have you ever heard about any of the things we are talking about? Amy: Yeah, yeah definitely. It's something I use in my therapy practice a lot. Meagan: I was wondering if you did. Amy: I work with college students primarily so this is a lot of time for some of them that they are facing some of this but I love what you were saying Desiree about practicing ahead of time because that's what I'll say. They'll be like, “Oh my gosh. I had a panic attack. I practiced your breathing and it didn't work.” I was like, “Did you practice that ahead of time?” When you're in crisis, it's hard to do it then. But if you've practiced it before and cued your body to that place, that's where it is so useful. Ironically, it was something that I didn't use a ton during my labor process as far as intentional breathing practices. I think I wish I had because I think that would have been useful, but my doula would coach me about some forms of taking deep breaths and sort of how you are breathing through some of the surges and stuff. But yeah, I love that. I love the practice it before you are in labor because then it's easier to do while you're in labor. Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. Such a powerful message. Okay, one more time, Desiree, tell everyone where they can find you. Desiree: Yeah. I'm on Instagram. You can find me at b_earth_mama pronounced “birth mama”. You can find me on my website which is www.b-earth-mama.com and that's primarily where I'm at. Meagan: Awesome. Well, go give her a follow everybody especially if you are in California and looking for a doula. And Amy, thank you from the bottom of my heart for joining us today and sharing your amazing stories. Amy: Awesome, thanks for having me. It was great. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Featured Photo is Dr. Amy Huberman The Amy Story, Part 2: The Joys of Doing the Laundry! Amy and her exuberant son, Sasha, and wife, Alena Last week you heard Part 1 of the Amy session, which included T = Testing, E = Empathy, and A = Assessment of Resistance. Today, you will hear Part 2 of Amy's exciting journey from perfectionism to JOY. M = Methods We used a variety of Methods to help Amy challenge her negative thoughts, starting with the first, “I'm failing my patients.” We started with Identify and Explain the Distortions, then went to the Double Standard Technique, and ended up with the Externalization of Voices. As a reminder, you can see Amy's  Daily Mood Log at the start of her session here.. As an exercise, see how many distortions, or thinking errors, you can find in her first Negative Thought, “I'm failing my patients,“ using the list of cognitive distortions on the bottom of her Daily Mood Log. You'll find the list of the ten cognitive distortions if you click here.  After you've identified each distortion, see if you can explain two things about it: Why is this distortion in Amy's thought unrealistic and misleading? Why might it be incredibly unfair and hurtful? You'll find my list of the distortions in this thought at the end of the show notes. But don't look until you've made your list! These techniques we used were effective , as you'll hear on the podcast, especially the Externalization of Voices. You'll hear us doing role-reversals with Amy, and the method that “won the day” was the CAT, or Counter-Attack Technique, combined with the Acceptance Paradox. The Acceptance Paradox involves finding truth in a negative thought with a sense of peace or even humor. The CAT involves confronting the hostile voice in your head and tell it to go fly a kite, or other gentle but firm message You'll enjoy seeing some striking changes in Amy, as her tears and feelings of intense self-doubt are suddenly transformed into joy and laughter. Those changes created strong feelings of joy for Jill and me as well. We both have incredibly fondness and admiration for Amy, and feel great joy as well when she feels joy. Here are Amy's final scores at the end of the session. Emotions % Now % Goal % After Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy 80 25 0 Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened 80 20 0 Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed 90 5 0 Worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent 100 15 5 Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone       Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious       Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing 90 5 0 Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated 80 5 5 Angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset, furious       Other         The Joyous Dr. Amy! Sudden and dramatic change is pretty trippy, but it isn't much good if it doesn't last. And it won't! Negative thoughts and feelings will always return, because no one can be happy all the time. That's why some relapse prevention training and ongoing practice and refinement of what you've learned can be vitally important. In our follow-up session with Amy one week later she said she'd felt way better during the week, but did, in fact, have some relapses and had to challenge her negative thoughts again. She'd been helped a lot by the idea that it was okay to fail, to seek consultation, and learn, and that failing with patients gave us endless opportunities to learn and grow as therapists. And it was also okay not to have to listen so intently to the attempts of the negative self to put her down. In fact, our misery almost never results from our failures, but from telling ourselves that we “shouldn't” ever fail, and from punishing ourselves mercilessly when we do. One of her most exciting statements in our follow-up session was that she discovered that even something as humble as putting the dirty clothes into the washing machine could be a joyous experience without that negative voice in her brain constantly hollering at her that she wasn't good enough! Teaching points It was hard, at first, for Amy to “see” how distorted and unfair her negative thoughts were. She is an extremely intelligent, accomplished, and beloved colleague, and yet most of us cannot “see” or really “grasp” that we can be pretty mean to when we're feeling down and anxious. I have often said that feeling anxious and depressed is a lot like being in a deep hypnotic trance, telling yourself and believing things that just aren't true. For example, Amy is doing beautiful work with the great majority of her patients, and is doing the exact same thing with the patients who are responding beautifully as she is with the two who are stuck. So, when she tells herself she's a failure, she's clearly involved in All-or-Nothing Thinking. In other words, she's thinking that if she's not perfect, she's a complete failure and a fraud. She also seems to have many Hidden Shoulds (e.g. I SHOULD be able to help every single patient quickly) and Mental Filtering (focusing only on the negatives) and Discounting the Positive (ignoring the positives, as if they didn't count.) The techniques that were the most helpful for Amy were Positive Reframing: that's where we pointed out the positive aspects of Amy's Negative Thoughts and feelings. The Externalization of Voices with Self-Defense, the Acceptance Paradox, and the CAT. Be Specific: Amy was Labeling herself as a “fraud” and a “failure,” and she was Overgeneralizing from two patients to her entire self and career. Jill emphasized Be Specific. In other words, focus on and accept what's real. What's real is that Amy has been valiantly struggling to help two patients who are stuck. She can just accept that, and get some consultation and guidance from a colleague, which would probably help her get unstuck. So, instead of labelling yourself as “a failure” and “a fraud,” which are just mean, vague words, you can tell yourself that you have a specific problem—in Amy's case, getting stuck with two very anxious patients. Then you can focus on getting some help in solving that specific problem—for example, by seeking consultation from a colleague. Jill said that's what she does when she gets stuck. I used to do that every week, especially when I was first learning cognitive therapy. Getting stuck, then, can simply be an opportunity for growth and learning cool new tools. If we never got stuck, we'd never learn anything new! The very moment Amy stopped believing her negative thoughts, her feelings instantly and dramatically changed. That change happened suddenly, over the course of about 30 seconds, and you can SEE it in her face and hear it in her voice. But it won't last forever! Jill pointed out that the belief at the root of Amy's problem was Perfectionism, and the idea that “I should know exactly what to do with all of my patients.” That may be a pleasant fantasy, and it might even motivate us to work hard and achieve, but it's also a recipe for misery! Follow-up Rapid recovery is great, but will it stick? You will hear excerpts from our brief follow-up session one week later for Relapse Prevention Training. The idea is that none of us can feel happy forever, and negative thoughts will creep back into our minds sooner or later. However, you can anticipate this and prepare for it by challenging your negative thoughts with the same techniques that helped you the first time you improved. That's because the details will usually be different every time you're upset, but the pattern of self-critical negative thoughts will usually be the same. And this DID happen to Amy, just as it will happen to you. But this was an opportunity for her to deepen her understanding of perfectionism and to refine and enhance her ability to respond to her negative thoughts. During the weeks following the recording of this podcast, Amy found that she experienced some resistance to using the counterattack technique. She began to feel like she was relating to her perfectionism as an enemy and attacking it—and in doing so, was discounting all the good in it, including the values that came shining through during the Positive Reframing. She found that a better fit for her, instead of the counterattack, was to disarm her perfectionistic thoughts by seeing the truth in them. In fact, you could view this as yet another form of acceptance. When she did this, the perfectionistic voice in her head naturally backed down and gave her the space to do what matters to her unencumbered by self-criticism. I thought it was cool when she described experiencing waves of joy while doing the laundry—an activity that had always felt like a chore to her before, when it was accompanied by thoughts like “I should have finished this laundry days ago.”   She discovered that without beating up on herself, something as humble as doing the laundry could be incredibly rewarding! After our follow-up meeting, I got a lovely email from Amy about the joys of giving up the need for perfection, and sent this follow-up reply to Amy: Thank you, Amy, you are the BEST! I did a four-day intensive in San Antonio years ago with a small group of about 25 therapists. As you know, I always BS and say “As the Buddha so often said . . . “ followed by something goofy or quasi-mystical or whatever, and most people seem to kind of like that and see it as fun or humorous or whatever. Well, I was doing that at the workshop, and at one of the breaks a woman approached me and said she was interested in my Buddhist remarks because she had been raised as a Buddhist in an Asian country where Buddhism is prominent. I panicked and thought I'd been found out and exposed as a fraud. She went on to say that their family gave up Buddhism, however, and she was sad. I asked why they gave up Buddhism, and she explained that her mother suffered from severe depression, and the Buddhists taught that's because you think you “need” things, and if you're a good Buddhist you won't think that way and you won't ever suffer. Since she suffered, she felt like a failure as a Buddhist, so the family gave up Buddhism. I told her that she might not be aware that there are actually two schools of Buddhism. There's low-level Buddhism and high-level Buddhism. In low-level Buddhism, you're not allowed to want or need anything, and you're not allowed to suffer. That's sounds like that was the school of Buddhism your family was raised in. But there's another type of high-level Buddhism. In high level Buddhism you're allowed to suffer and struggle, and screw up, and fail, and all sorts of stuff. She got animated and said, “I didn't know that. Thank you so much. You've restored my faith in Buddhism, and I can't wait to tell my mother!” Aside from my being elderly and half-demented, I hope that makes some sense in light of our work together with Jill! So, if you need any translation or explanation, Amy, I'm inviting you to join the high-level Buddhist therapist group where you're allowed to screw up with some of your patients, or even many! Warmly, david Subsequent Follow-Up I forgot to tell you what happened to Amy's two “stuck patients.” Well, she got some consultation about why these patients might be stuck, which is nearly always an Agenda Setting problem—the therapist is working harder than the patient due to the need to “help,” and this plays into the patient's ambivalence. This struck a chord, and Amy was very excited to see her patients again, and both suddenly got “unstuck,” although in somewhat different ways. And that is why I call it the Acceptance Paradox. The moment YOU change, and accept yourself, your world will also change! Or, to put it differently. We often see the world as “different” or as “other,” thinking we are separated. The Buddhists see the world as “one,” and that is certainly true in therapy as well. Answers to the Quiz Question David's list of Distortions in Amy's Negative Thought: “I'm failing my patients.” 1.     All-or-Nothing Thinking. This is not realistic because Amy is not stuck with all of her patients. And even though she's still far short of her hopes for these two patients, they may feel they are getting lots of TLC and support from Amy. 2.     Overgeneralization. This is misleading because she's overgeneralizing from her two failures to her “self,” and labeling herself as “a fraud and a failure.” She also overgeneralizing to the future, thinking things will never change or improve so she should get a new career. 3.     Mental Filtering. She only focusing on the two patients who are stuck. 4.     Discounting the Positive. She's overlooking the fact that she's going excellent work with a great many people, and has tremendous integrity, skill, and commitment to her patients. 5.     Magnification and Minimization. She's kind of blowing things out of proportion, although it's always good to focus on patients who aren't yes improving. 6.     Emotional Reasoning, She FEELS like a failure so thinks she IS a failure. 7.     Hidden Should Statement. She thinks she SHOULD be perfect! 8.     Labeling. Same as Overgeneralization. See above. 9.     Self-Blame. She's blaming herself instead of loving herself and focusing on getting she help she needs and deserves! Thanks for listening today! Rhonda, Amy, and David  

We have another follow-up story on the podcast this week! We love hearing from our previous guests and today, we get to follow up with our friend, Amy. Amy was on the podcast for episode 102 sharing her VBA2C story and now we get to hear her HBA2C story!Amy talks about her journey to embracing home birth with her fourth baby, how she found the right team, and how she worked through her fears. When labor began, Amy was steady and strong. She was ready and so was her team. Then everything completely stopped. Instead of giving in to discouragement, Amy trusted the process. Her team went home and she knew she needed rest. 10 hours later, labor kicked in HARD. Amy birthed her baby shortly after!Meagan and Amy discuss the pros and cons of cervical exams before and during labor. Women of Strength, you do not have to have a cervical exam if you do not want one!Additional LinksThe VBAC Link Episode 102: Amy's VBA2CICAN of Summit CountyThe Lactation NetworkHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, hello you guys. We only have a couple of weeks left of 2023 and it is blowing my mind. I cannot believe how fast the year has gone and how much has happened. I hope that you have had an amazing year and are gearing up for the holidays. I definitely have had a good year and am not ready for the holidays. I'm never ready for the holidays. It is always a crazy hustle and bustle. But I am always ready for a new episode and story to share. Today we have a special episode. I feel like this is a fun one because we like follow-ups. It's really fun to sometimes have follow-ups. We have an HBAC after two Cesarean births to share with you today. I'm going to let our guest tell you more about her births and I'll give you a little bit of a preview, but Amy, is it 102 what you said? It's 102. Amy: Yes. It's 102. Meagan: So episode 102. If you want to go and hear more, she's got four babies you guys. If you want to hear more of the other babies' stories, definitely go check out episode 102. Review of the Week But of course, we have a Review of the Week so we want to get into that. This is by meganlindsayyy. It says, “The support that I needed.” It says, “After my C-section, I said I wouldn't even consider getting pregnant again unless I was guaranteed a VBAC. When we were surprised by our current pregnancy, I felt like I had already lost control and a say in the outcome. I immediately went back to my same OB and hoped for the best. Something happened when I was about 20 weeks pregnant. I wasn't able to sleep. I got up at 4:00 AM and I began researching how to have a successful VBAC. That was the morning I found Meagan and Julie on Facebook. I was listening to their podcast later that day. By the evening, I knew that I had to totally change my plans.” Ooh, that just gave me the chills right there. It says, “I was going to let my birth happen to me.” I was going to let my birth happen to me. That is so powerful right there. Women of Strength, you do not need to let birth happen to you. You can go and you can birth and you can be in control of a lot of things in your birth. It says, “Because of these women I realized that I have a voice in what happens to me. I switched my provider and hospital and am in the process of hiring a doula. I am creating a thought about our birth plan. It is because of these women that I feel confident to go for my VBAC.”Well, meganlindsayyy, I am so happy that you felt that you were able to find your voice again and find your power and take control of your birth and not let birth happen to you. This was back in 2022 and here we are at the end of 2023 so meganlindsayyy, if you are still listening, please let us know. How did things go? How did your birth go? I hope that it went really well and that you felt empowered no matter how it ended. You too, Women of Strength. If you are in a situation where you are not feeling that support and you're not feeling the love, know that it is okay. It is okay to do what's best for you. If that's leaving a provider or switching things up birth location-wise, that's okay. I know it seems daunting. It is. It is daunting. I did it myself at 24 weeks, but it is so worth it usually. Of course, if you haven't had a chance to leave a review in the 2024 year, we would love to bring in some new reviews. Go over to Apple Podcasts or Google Play or you Android users. I don't know. Google whatever or you can actually Google “The VBAC Link” and leave us a review there. Amy's Stories Meagan: Okay, cutie pie. I am so excited to have you back today. So, so excited. I'm so excited to get into this story, but I also want to talk about something that we are going to talk about at the end. I know that this kind of goes into your birth about cervical exams. I want to talk about cervical exams. What do they look for? What do they do? What do they tell us? Are they necessary? And all of those things. We are going to talk more about cervical exams at the end, but I would love to turn the time over to you and your cute little baby. You guys, if you hear the cute little baby noises, we've got a baby on the show today. Amy: We do. We've got a wide-awake 6-month-old. Don't mind the squawks. Well, thank you so much. Obviously, I'm incredibly excited to be back. I didn't think that was ever even going to happen. If anybody has listened to my first episode, at the end of the episode, Julie was cheering on our husband. She was cheering on us both to have a fourth baby. It was a joke between you and I and it was an ongoing thing in our home. My husband would call it nagging. I just called it persistence, but here we are. Honestly, I really didn't think I was going to have another baby so I just feel incredibly blessed, excited, and just really happy to share another story. I'm just really hoping that this story can help somebody else who maybe is feeling some fears about a VBAC or a home birth or any part of my story. I feel like there is a lot of different kind of factors that play into it, so thank you for having me. I'm super excited. But yeah. I guess I'll get started. We know that with every VBAC story, we start with our C-sections. Like you mentioned and I mentioned if you want to hear the full two Cesarean stories and my first VBAC after two C-sections story, check out episode 102 because there are some long, detailed stories. I'm not going to go through them all, but I do think they are important just to hear how I got to where I am today because each birth and pregnancy really builds upon the last. My knowledge, my passion, and just all of the information I learned played a role in my decisions for the next one. So just a real quick birth history. Gosh, it's been almost 10 years ago. My oldest is 9.5. I will go back to 2013. I really did plan the most natural delivery possible with a birth plan but I didn't have a doula. I was induced at 41.5 and on Pitocin for 30 hours. Two epidurals, every drain and tube and monitor coming out of me that could possibly come out of me even though I really wanted none of it and then after two hours of pushing, the covering OB came in and said, “We should have done a C-section hours ago.” I gave up. My body just– you know, the adrenaline kind of left my body and I said, “That's fine. Whatever.”She was 10 pounds and probably OP. I started planning my VBAC in the postpartum room. Let's fast forward a couple of years. I switched providers and thought she was VBAC-supportive. It was a little bit of a bait and switch and some scare tactics at the end. I ended somehow in a scheduled C-section at 40 weeks and day with no TOLAC. I didn't really realize it was insane until I met my next provider, but her C-section was straightforward. It was really nice to have a C-section without the labor and 30 hours of Pitocin, but I just didn't feel like honestly, that was even a chance at a VBAC. She had some big baby fears because she is VBAC-supportive with other people so that was hard to learn about after the fact. My second, Delaney, which is my Delaney. I know you have a Delaney. She's 7. My oldest is Adeline and she is 9.5. My second is Delaney and she is 7. She was my “scheduled” C-section, but I kind of look at her as a CBAC because I really, really did in my heart plan for a VBAC. She was 9 pounds and 3 ounces so also larger. Fast forward a couple more years. I switched to yet another doctor, kind of the VBAC king in the area. I did all of the research and all of the prep, the chiropractic care, and did all of the things, right? I got a doula and I did have my– which is when I was on the podcast– VBAC after two C-sections just riddled with a lot of interventions after getting to the hospital. The most significant one was him breaking my water at 4 centimeters when I got there for really no apparent reason. Baby turning OP, pushing for an hour, and then it was a forceps assist. I think while it was empowering and it was really life-changing, I think after the fact as I thought more about it, I did this big mental dump on my computer even though I assumed we would never have another baby. I did this big document of what I would do next time. It's really interesting to look back because I did it pretty quickly after the birth. Not necessarily regrets, but how I would do things differently even down to the first trimester. Meagan: I actually think that's really powerful. Amy: It was. It was helpful. Meagan: I really think that's great. Amy: I'm glad I did it because I did look back at it and it was interesting to look at. Although it was a VBAC, and I will say I still feel really blessed and I do think it paved the way physically and emotionally to have another baby vaginally, I didn't really have those healing moments that I was hoping for. That was really hard for me because the NICU team whisked him away. It was a boy and that was the first gender we didn't know. It was really special to have two girls and then a boy. He was our smallest baby. He was 8lbs, 12 oz and I think he was 41.4 but I didn't get to hold him after. I didn't get to do the golden hour. I didn't get to do immediate skin-to-skin. He did spend an hour in the NICU for observation which was hard. I was happy he was healthy but with a forceps assist and an OP baby, I could have had a lot more damage than I did and I only had a second-degree tear which I was very grateful for because it could have been a lot worse. But he was fine and we were healthy and I healed well. It was a really great postpartum period and the hormones were real and the birth high is real. That really solidified my passion for birth and what I wanted to do moving forward. I met another mom through my same OB because everybody flocked to this OB. She actually recorded a podcast episode around the same time as me, Tanya. I hope it's okay if I share her name. We actually ended up through meetings and through our VBACs starting an ICAN chapter in our community in November of 2020 amidst the pandemic. We went through the ICAN leadership training which was really exciting. We now have an ICAN chapter that's been going pretty strong now for about 3 years and we have just grown our passion even more and connected even more to the birth community. So yeah. Those are my three stories in a nutshell. Meagan: Tell everybody how to find that ICAN chapter in your area if they're listening.Amy: Okay, sure. I wasn't sure if I should share the details. ICAN of Summit County. I live in the greater Akron area. We serve the whole Summit County area. There is also a very active, large ICAN chapter in Cleveland which is one of the longest-standing ICAN chapters or the longest-standing which is really neat. That is the chapter we started going to and it really helped us. We love having our own chapter here. We're growing but juggling a lot of babies. I had to take some pauses at times, so that's been really exciting and has really just helped grow our passion and desire to keep doing this kind of work. Yeah. Through all of that, I still kept listening to podcasts and just devouring everything I could. I had plans to become a doula and just hadn't been able to pull the trigger yet, but have always had this hope that one day I will be able to help other women. As the years went by, I still didn't feel like our family was complete, but I do want to add that I know a lot of women deal with this so I want to speak to this because sometimes, I think that maybe women are not afraid or ashamed to talk about it, but I did struggle with the difference between if I really wanted another baby or child and do I really want another birth experience to do differently. I've heard other people talk about that. I'm glad I took quite a few years to trick my husband into having another baby, no, to get pregnant again because I wanted to make sure that I was doing it for the right reasons. But yeah. It was tugging at my soul and I think he was unofficially done. Around comes Mother's Day 2022 and I conceived baby number four and that was the best Mother's Day gift ever. That's where the story starts. I think always in the back of my head, I daydreamed and dreamt of this home birth plan. I said, “That's a dream of mine that will never happen because of my history and because we're not having any more kids and because my body probably can't do that. I've always needed an epidural. XYZ.” I had my birth team planned in my mind for years even. This is what I'm going to do if I get pregnant again, but I never thought I'd actually have to commit to that. Along comes this pregnancy and we're super excited about it. I started my OB care with the same doctor who is extremely supportive. I knew he did co-care for home births just from talking to other women. I went along with my pregnancy. It was textbook. I tried to stay as active as I could. I wasn't as sick this time, so I was just trying to really stay healthy and do all of the things right that I could because I know that I have big babies. I don't know if my weight gain plays into it, but I tend to gain a lot of weight every time no matter what I'm doing. With my son, he was the smallest and I had been running the whole pregnancy, so I thought, “I'm going to try to have another smaller baby.” I continued with OB care. I didn't do all of the VBAC things. We have the lists, right? The Spinning Babies and the red raspberry leaf tea and the dates and stuff. I had three kids and I was working. I didn't have time to do all of the things, but I really tried to prioritize what I thought was most important. I tried to start early by interviewing as many doulas as possible and really trying to find somebody who would really be the best support for me whether I was in the hospital or at home because I still hadn't committed even though I knew in my heart I really wanted to at least try for a home birth. I interviewed a lot of doulas. I found one who was spectacular. She wasn't necessarily the most experienced years-wise, but I was okay with that because of some great reviews from friends and we just really clicked. She was comfortable with the idea of home birth or hospital birth and I know not all doulas are. I think that is one important thing to take into consideration. I did start Webster's chiropractic care pretty early because I knew the only time my body ever went into labor on its own was with my third, my VBAC. For me, that was a really huge thing. It was a really huge deal to know that my body wasn't broken because it never went into labor with my first two. Thankfully, that wasn't really a fear of mine anymore because I knew it could be done and I knew it could happen. The other thing that I really did was I wanted to do some mental health work around some of my fears and anxieties to try to really figure out if I was nervous about a home birth because my intuition, like you talk about, had a fear that something was going to go wrong medically or if it was just anxiety. I worked a little bit with a mental health therapist and it was just nice to talk it out. I worked through those things and what my hesitations were and why and what my fears were and why. I really do think that helped a lot. Meagan: Do you have any tips for our listeners that your therapist gave you to help recognize fear versus intuition? Do you know what I mean? We talk about this a lot on the podcast. Amy: She probably gave me tools and I have an awful memory. There were some charts she wanted me to make, so I'll have to find those and send them to you, but it had to do with working through the root and then figuring out the why and not so much– I just had a weird fear of having a really catastrophic emergency. I don't know if that's just because I'm a nurse and that's where my mind goes or if because people tell me that it's so dangerous, so then I finally worked through that by looking at statistics and listening to all of the stories and realizing that it isn't an irrational fear but that we needed to come up with a plan. We had all of the different plans set in place for that. But yeah. I'll have to see. I'm sure she had some. I probably didn't do the homework, but she probably had some exercises for me. Meagan: I think you did. Amy: Yeah, I guess in a roundabout way. It helped to talk to someone who is not your partner and not your mom and not your coworker. So yeah. We did the prenatal co-care. He was on board with the home birth plans as much as an OB can. He was really great in that sense, but I was dragging my feet to make a decision and I think this is partly my procrastination and partly my not-commiting to the idea because then I wouldn't have to do it. I interviewed a lot of midwives and around 28 weeks, I hired a midwife and the medical professional in me decided to go with a CNM. In Ohio, laws are different everywhere, but certified nurse midwives are the nurses who have the nursing school and a master's degree in nursing. Most of those do not practice in the home birth setting in Ohio. Those are the midwives you would get in the hospital and we do not have any free-standing birth centers sadly, so we just have very few options here. But there are about four nurse-midwives now that do practice home births or come to the home. So I hired one and she was really wonderful. I kind of knew her a little bit personally through another friend. I had my first visit with her and I was feeling really excited. I had my doula hired. I had my photographer hired who was a home birth mama herself times two and I loved the idea that she also would just really understand the space and what I needed. She wasn't just a photographer. She was like another doula through my whole pregnancy and she was wonderful too. Unfortunately, after my first visit, we waited about four weeks to see each other again, and then the day of that visit, she let me go as a patient over the phone unfortunately due to some things she read in my records. It's frustrating because she really knew my history really well and I gave her this huge stack of records to be nice. In the op report, it talked about the uterine window which we all know is a little bogus. I understand why she was–Meagan: I had that too. Amy: Yeah. I wonder if she had never seen that, but who knows? I do feel that things worked out the way that they were supposed to but the only reason it was difficult was because I was now 31 weeks and you don't want to have to change providers that late. I respected her and I would rather have someone who was 110% comfortable anyway. The other CNMs in the area, I will say, wanted to do continuous fetal monitoring at home. One wanted to put in a hep lock at home. They are just a little bit more conservative because of, I think, the climate in Ohio and their license which I totally understand. It worked out for the best in the end. But I raced to interview a couple more midwives and thankfully, one that I had heard of but never talked to, we clicked instantly. My husband talked to her. He told some kind of joke about a uterus and she laughed then he hired her on the spot. We fell in love with her. She is just amazing and we just instantly clicked and I knew she was my person.  I continued my care with her. That was 33 weeks on and her office was an hour away. That was one of my hesitations originally with some people up north was the distance. I did some co-care with my OB and with her. Then at 37 weeks, my OB who our whole area just adores, and beyond. Women drove to him from other states. He was unfortunately let go from the hospital. I don't know the details. I hate to say the word fired, but yeah. Terminated. It left a lot of women. It was really devastating for the birthing community up here in northeast Ohio because a lot of women go to him for breech deliveries, twin, triplet vaginal birth. You know, the renegade of the hospital who is kind of operating on his own accord. He would go to home births and a lot of women would never have even been given an option to have a vaginal delivery without him. It was really heartbreaking. Meagan: One of the most supportive people at birth was let go for whatever reason. Amy: Yeah, unfortunately. There were a lot of tears shed by a lot of people who had delivered with him and who worked with him. Anyway, I don't want to get too caught up by that, but it was really upsetting for somebody whose hospital transfer plan was an amazing OB. I had all of these birth plans written out and now, my non-urgent hospital transfer– I didn't really have that option. To me, I'm like, “Well, there goes my home birth because what if I need pain relief or whatnot?” I did transfer to the local hospital midwife group in the hospital about 2 miles down the road in Akron. Thankfully, I delivered my first with them and they had records. They were really wonderful when I went in at 39 weeks saying, “Hey. I had co-care for a home birth.” Even this one OB walked in and I got so nervous because it was supposed to be a midwife. She was running behind and this OB walked in. I'm like, “Oh crap.” The OB just goes, “What do you need from me? I see you are planning a home birth.” I almost cried on the spot because it was wonderful to have this fresh out-of-school OB be okay with that. I'm like, “Thank you so much for that. I really needed that today,” because I am 39 weeks. The end of the pregnancy went fine. I did all of the things, some Miles circuits. I didn't go crazy with the dates or the tea or anything. I tried to stay active. I didn't have as many Braxton Hicks as I had in the past, but I definitely had the heavy pressure in the pelvis. I could hardly walk and everything. I felt really low this time and a lot of back pain and hip pressure and hip pain this time. I tried not to focus on the when. When is labor going to start? You can get really obsessive with that, especially when you are known to go over too. I tried to stay really present and be there for the kids and enjoy those last days. I did begin to lose my mucus plug at my midwife's office which was really funny at 39 weeks. I'm like, “What is this?” She was like, “It's your mucus plug.” I was giving a urine sample. I'm like, “Oh my gosh.” Things were starting to brew a little earlier which was really exciting. I started having some mild contractions and then I think I was– so let's see. I was due on February 2nd. The actual early labor contractions that were noticeable started on a Monday. I was 40 and 4. My parents were over for dinner and they were consistent enough. I was just getting irritable so I went up to my room. I excused myself from dinner. I'm like, “I'm going to go lay down.” That was my first day off work. That was a Monday. My last day of work was the previous Thursday. I had gotten a manicure. I'm like, “This is going to be a pampering day,” which was maybe helpful I think. I think a day of rest really did help my body switch into gear. I know that everyone says to rest and that it will happen when it's time and it did. So yeah. Contractions kind of started kicking up that night. Something of note with my first VBAC, so my third birth was that my contractions immediately went to 1-2 minutes apart and that's why I went to the hospital so early. I was like, “Don't call everybody in too soon. You know that this is how your body is in early labor.” I took a shower and I rested. I was just out in the sunroom which was my happy spot in our new house. I think I was watching The Bachelor which was ridiculous but I was like, “Okay. If I can still watch TV, it's still early labor.” It went on. I texted my team a little bit, but just said, “Hey, I think things are brewing. I had some bloody show around 8:00 PM, but I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing and resting.” So I think it was around 11:00 PM that I could no longer watch TV or want to so I was like, “Okay. I'm going to keep everybody updated, but no reason to call in the troops yet. I'm going to let my husband sleep.” I think I did text everyone around midnight. Contractions were 2-3 minutes apart. They were definitely getting more painful. I was still breathing through them, but just getting nervous because my midwife was an hour away. I think my husband woke up around 1:00 AM and urged everybody to come over. Everybody got there around 2:00 AM. This was 2:00 AM on Tuesday morning, so February 7th. It was the day she was born. My doula got there first. She kind of just stayed by my side. She did hip squeezes and rubbed my back. She was just super wonderful and supportive. Everyone, as they came into the house, just let me be. What I love about home birth is that they don't disrupt you. They hold the space for you. They are quiet and respectful of your environment and just check on you when they need to. They take your vitals every so often, listen to the baby's heartbeat, and really, they just hung out in my living room until I needed them again. I just labored up in my bedroom for most of the night. I took a lot of showers. It was a lot of leaning over the bed and hip rolls on the ball. Nobody ever checked me, so talking about cervical exams. I never really thought about it and they never asked. It would have been interesting to know where I was through all of this, but yeah. I never got checked once during the whole birth. That was, I think, really cool in the end. Everybody filed in around 2:00 AM and stayed through most of the night. Then around 9:00 AM, I went downstairs to see my older kids. They stayed home from school because they were up throughout the night too coming in and out of the room. I really did want them there for the birth. They were really interested and I thought it would be really special. But when I went down to see them, everything stalled and fizzled out completely. I guess I just didn't think of this as an option. I was really in it, I felt. I was having painful contractions that were coming regularly. I was really having to work through them. Everything died down. I had some food. I said goodbye to them. My husband took them to my mother-in-law's for the day. We just thought I was going to rest. I went on a walk with my doula. We did some curb walking. I felt huge pressure to get things moving faster because my team had been there since 2:00 AM. I was doing the thing. We were here. I thought this was the real deal and then it fizzles. I finally had this talk with my midwife. I think I was naked or maybe in a robe after getting out my one of my million showers which I loved the shower. She was like, “Let's just regroup. Let's just have a chat. I think you need to–let's just reset. I think we need to get out of your space. Things are happening. You're doing the work. I don't doubt that, but I think you just need to rest.” I'm a people pleaser and I wanted them to go home and get some rest. The whole team stayed there for 12 hours. They have babies of their own and they were amazing. She said, “I think this will be good for you.” I had a big cry. That release, I felt so guilty that they had all been there. I felt like maybe this was a false alarm and I just had everybody come over for no reason, but in the end, it was good for us. We had a rest. We napped on and off and ate some food. He's smearing blueberries all over my shirt. We ate some food, took some showers, and just hunkered down just my husband and I. I think it was really good for us to just have some time. I was napping on and off and my husband decided to take some clothes to the kids at my mother-in-law's house which is about 20 minutes away. Around 7:00, my mom and dad came over. He planned this behind my back without bothering me. I was like, “Okay, whatever.” My mom had talked about being a deliveries in the past, but it just never felt like the right time. It never really felt right to have someone else in the room. I said, “Whatever. She can sit with me. That's great.” She was just sitting in the corner quietly of the room and I was resting and then all of a sudden, 7:00 hits. My husband is still gone and I am just like, all of a sudden, contractions come back out of the blue super strong and powerful. My husband Facetimes me with the kids a little after 7:00 and then all of a sudden, I had this giant contraction. I threw my phone out of the bed and yelled, “I can't talk.” I felt really bad. I just managed to text, “Come home now. Not doing well,” or something like that. I just didn't even know this could happen where you could labor, have this break, and then it could just shoot you right into active labor, transition. He comes home as fast as he can. My mom is in the room. God love her. She's a nurse by trade of 50 years. Never in OB and she was just like, “Okay. Do you want help? Do you not want help?” Finally, I'm like, “Rub my back or something.” I couldn't really talk at this point. It really went from 0 to 100. She was doing hip squeezes as best as she could. We're getting myself in and out of the tub a couple of times, having to keep putting new hot water in it. God love my mom with her bucket of water and we're doing it. It was just me and her here. I think I texted the group, “Can't do this much longer,” to the birth team but not much information got relayed to the team. No one's fault, it was just a lack of communication between me, my mom, and my husband who was the communicator. Things are getting pretty hard. I'm very vocal and my contractions are back-to-back. My back is just killing me. I think at this point, my husband is home. At 7:40 at night, he's home. He's moving cars to the neighbor's driveway. I'm in the water at this point and there was a pop in the water. I knew from past episodes of other birth stories that that's when your water breaks in the water, Amy. I didn't want to believe that was happening because my water has never broken on its own. It was broken for me. This never gets relayed to anybody. My mom was like, “I knew you were probably in transition, but I just didn't tell anyone.” I'm like, “Okay,” after the fact. Then I was vomiting too. That never got relayed to the team. They're asking my husband, “Are here contractions different? Has she tried an Epsom salt bath? Where are they located?” I'm looking back at the texts and he's like, “She's not answering. They're different. She wants to be checked now.” I feel like I was yelling but I was probably whispering. At that point, I was like, I need to be checked now because if I'm not very close, I can't do this anymore. A lot of things, I think I verbalized but they were probably in my head. I was like, “I need an epidural. This isn't going to happen soon. Get me to the hospital.” I was just–Meagan: Well, that's what happens in the end. We have this sense of, “I can't. I don't want to. I'm done,” but that's the end. Amy: Yep. Yep. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It was pure misery and it felt like my bones were breaking but I was trying. I was relaxing my body as much as I could because I knew I needed to. I was in the tub for most of that portion. So I was definitely in transition and nobody knew. I think my husband called my doula and just recently, she said, “I heard you in the background and I grabbed my keys and ran,” because I think I was doing the low, birthy moaning but no one else. I just never thought to call my midwives because in those moments, I couldn't have even thought straight. I wasn't thinking to text or call anyone because I was just trying to survive in that primal birth state. She was like, “I sped so fast.” God love my doula. She walks in the door first. I think it was 8:45 at this point, so 7:00 PM was when everything kicked up fast. She walks in and she was really just doing all of the comfort measures she could. I was in the water. I think all the other birth team started heading over. My midwife had an hour drive and she got stuck behind a train. The midwife assistant, who was hired because she lived more in my area which is great, happened to be nearby at a basketball game for her son so she headed over to “check” me. It's important to note that when they were there the first time, they had all of their equipment, but they packed it all back up and took it home. So when she comes upstairs to check me, she has a flashlight and a doppler, maybe a pair of gloves in her pocket. I never get checked so that's the end of that. That story ends, but she heads in and our photographer gets there at 9:45. One of the heartbreaking parts of my VBAC was that my photographer left the hospital during my epidural and never came back. I was very heartbroken that I didn't have photos. God love my photographer. She made it just in the nick of time. She shows up and she also had an hour drive and a baby of her own at home. She gets there at 9:45 and at this point, I think I'm just up to the bathroom a lot. I couldn't stop going to the bathroom. TMI, but pooping. I just remember the midwife was dragging me off the toilet. She is very direct and I didn't know her that well. She is a midwife in training also thankfully, so she is very close to the end of her midwifery training thank God, but she was like, “We need to go. Come on, honey. It's okay if you keep pooping. Come on. Get off the toilet now.” I was bearing down. I didn't know it, but I was definitely having fetal ejection reflex at that point. I think I was still in denial that it was the baby. I was doing these grunts and moans. I just think I was still like, “Oh, I'm probably 6 centimeters.” I didn't want to let myself down. I still had so many fears of, “Am I going to end up in the hospital for pain relief? Am I going to get to 10 centimeters? Is the baby going to be OP again?” and all of these things. I get back in the tub and it's all very blurry and fuzzy at this point. But piecing together from what people told me in texts, I know she said to reach down and see what you feel. I said, “It burns.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, it burns.” She was like, “Well, what do you feel?” I was like, “I don't know what that is. It's fleshy.” In that moment, I thought it was a butt. I thought, “Oh my gosh. This baby is coming out breech. My midwife isn't here yet and I'm at home.” I think it was the head. I don't know. I really didn't know what I was feeling. I was kind of afraid to touch it. Meagan: Probably cap it or– Amy: I was like, “What is this?” I guess we knew it was close. She's trying to look with a flashlight. I really did think I wanted a waterbirth, but I guess I wasn't in a position that the midwife assistant liked because I kept liking kneeling where I was giving no room for the baby to come out. She kept going, “You have to lean forward or sit back. You can't kneel like that because the baby can't come out if you're sitting on your leg.” You know, whatever. We decided to get out of the tub which was very hard to get up over that edge of the tub. For anyone who has seen my birth video because I had posted it to the group, they helped me out of the tub. It was very difficult and very miserable. I made my way to the side of the bed. At that point, I think my body is pushing and I don't even realize it. I don't remember if there was pain. It's all kind of a blur. It was just all very intense. I know that from photos, I was squatting next to my bed with my arms around my husband's neck. He's holding up all of my weight. They said that I was pulling him over. He is 6'1”, 250. I'm 5'5”. I was a maniac, pulling on him with all of my strength. I birthed her head next to the bed and I honestly don't remember feeling it. I do not remember any crazy pain or anything. I think I was just so in birthland. Her head comes out and I just remember my body shuts down. No urge to push. No contractions. I've heard other people say this, I think, on your podcast so it felt very validating to hear this. Everybody was like, “You've got to keep pushing.” I really didn't want coached pushing. From the hospital, you get yelled at to push, push, push. But she was like, “You've got to push. The head's out.” I just remember it being very– not scary, but just very urgent and very matter-of-fact. “We need you to push.” Meagan: “You've got to do this.” Amy: Yeah. “You've got to do this.” By my husband, there's a small spot next to the bed. You always birth in small spots. My husband is behind me. My doula is next to me. My mom is somewhere in there. The photographer is across the room. I just instinctively rolled onto the bed. You have to remember, there are no chucks pads down. We are not having a baby on a bed right now. We aren't planning for it, so I had a mattress protector down, thank God, but no chucks pads. I rolled onto my side. My leg was up in the air, and at that point, it gets a little intense because the midwife assistant was by herself and they do like to have two people there. The resuscitation equipment is not in the house. There is nothing to help me or baby if anything goes wrong. There was some intensity in the moment and she did tell my mom to put a timer on the clock and that after 60 seconds, we were going to call EMS. When I heard that, when I heard her say– So 60 seconds does go by and thank God, my mom is a nurse but nobody knows she's a nurse. The funny part is that nobody knows that she was an RN of 50 years and on the other side of the house, my dad, I didn't know he was there. He is a physician by trade, retired. Nobody knows any of that so it was funny after the fact. Funny, but not funny. Comical, after the fact. She's like, “Put 60 seconds on the clock.” I think it is a conservative amount. I know the head can be out for longer, but I think coloring and other things factor in. So as soon as I heard my midwife very calmly– and everything was very calm I have to say. It was the most beautifully handled situation. I never felt scared. I didn't feel traumatized after, but she very calmly said, “Please call 9-1-1,” to my mom which has to be hard for a grandma who was supportive of home birth– I know my mom and dad were supportive and I know my dad especially was concerned from his background. I know they had a lot of questions and they trusted me and my research. I live really close to two huge, big hospitals, but that had to be really scary. When she did it, she did great. She went downstairs to open the doors for EMS and she missed the baby being born because when I heard, “Call 9-1-1,” I gave the most roaring push my doula called it. I scream pushed and my midwife did go in and released her arm. Meagan: She had shoulder dystocia, right? Amy: She did have shoulder dystocia, yeah. I guess technically it was a dystocia if I don't know. I felt like I needed to know and I've done a lot of research of was it really? Could I have changed positions or was it rushed? In the end, I think we'll call it dystocia because she went in and she helped, but she popped right out with a little bit of assistance. By the time my mom got upstairs from opening up the door, baby was born. It's all such a blur. I think she needed a little stimulation. Her coloring wasn't perfect coming out, but I don't think there were any concerns. Her APGARs were fine. We just stimulated her a little bit. She started crying. Everybody had this huge sigh of relief because we didn't have the equipment. My midwife still wasn't there yet. She did a beautiful job and I'm just forever grateful for her skill set and the fact that she knew how to handle it. I love that my story can show people that situations can arise. I don't want to say emergencies, but tough situations can arise where these skills are needed and these midwives are wonderfully trained. EMS walks in and they see this baby that is crying and pinked up. We're all laughing and happy and riding the birth high. They're just like, “Okay, you're good here?” We're like, “Yep, we're good.” They're like, “Congratulations.” They left. They did not. They said, “We would rather deal with a gunshot wound than deliver a baby.” They had a cord clamp. They were like, “Do you need a cord clamp?” We're like, “No, thanks though.” That was all they brought with them. It was cute. There was apparently a line of men down my steps, nine EMS, two squads, three guys–Meagan: They didn't need anything. Amy: No. I'm glad they responded. It's not that I wanted that to be a part of my story necessarily but it was what needed to happen and she felt that she took the steps she needed to feel comfortable delivering on her own. It all ended up wonderfully. Things can go wrong with shoulder dystocia, so I was very blessed that she came out as well as she did. I didn't have a tear. I had maybe a first-degree tear which was great. She was 9.5 pounds so not my smallest either, my second biggest. We found out she was a girl and yeah. The rest is just the beautiful postpartum bliss. My midwife shows up, I don't know. She was born at 10:10 PM. The midwife shows up at 10:25 totally bummed because you don't want to miss it. I loved her and we had such a great bond. I'm so glad she was there with me a lot of the day. She was just, there was just so much joy in the room. They did all of the postpartum stuff you do at a home birth. They weighed her and measured her. We latched. My placenta– I'll go back. My placenta, I love that they don't rush it in home birth. I stood up. They were like, “Maybe gravity will help.” I had cramps. I wanted to get up and take a shower. We just crack up because I walked a few steps across the room and my midwife, God love her, had this chucks pad under me because I'm sure I was bleeding and dripping. I gave this little cough push and midway walking through my room, the placenta just plops out like rapid speed. It drops the chucks pad down to the ground. It lands on it. We all start cracking up. We might have named it my plopcenta. Meagan: Plopcenta. Amy: To this day, my daughter still calls it that. But it was hilarious. It was kind of fun. So that happened. I took my shower. She was here. I still couldn't believe it went down that way and that my mom was there for the birth even though she never was really planning on it. Yeah. I'm sure there are so many details in there I missed, but I've been talked forever. Literally, it was just going from thinking you have this scarlet letter of big babies and C-sections and OP babies to– I don't know. It was really fast. From 7:00 PM to 10:00, it all happened really fast. Meagan: Yeah. Amy: With hardly a push, maybe two coached pushes at the end there with a little bit of help from a midwife, but yeah. It's wild how each delivery is different. I'm just really grateful that I had the team I had and trusted myself and body and the process and yeah. We're just really grateful. In the end, it was beautiful. Meagan: I am so happy for you. So happy. And look how beautiful. I know everybody right now can't see her, but she's so beautiful and so darling. With having EMS and stuff like that involved, that a lot of the time can have trauma involved with that too or maybe for future kids, maybe some people will say, “Oh, well this had to happen last time,” and maybe question you doing home birth. Do you have any tips for anyone? Like you said, “It's not necessarily what I would have loved to have happen, but it happened and it was fine.” Amy: I think I had to debrief a lot because I'm the type that wants to know why. So kind of what happened with my first VBAC, I felt really victorious, then as I started nitpicking the birth and all of the interventions, I kind of had a huge dip in my mood and got really upset about it. I have to work through it and go through all of the details. With this, I remember saying it out loud. I really didn't feel like it was traumatic. I really had to think about the why and why they were called. I felt like it was–Meagan: Extra precaution, yeah. Amy: I said to my midwife after the fact– she's been catching babies for 10 years. I said, “Would you have called at 60 seconds?” I just don't know if she can answer that without having been there because I think you do have to look at baby's coloring. I think they can tell by the cardinal movements as they are coming out. I don't think she was turning as she was supposed to. She wasn't turtling in, but she wasn't doing the cardinal movements that she was supposed to. I don't know had there been two sets of hands if they would have been called that soon. Maybe we would have gotten baby out before, but I'm actually just really grateful they called and I have to reframe it that way. Maybe working with a therapist if you felt like some of the things that happened weren't necessarily healing or what you wanted. Yes, you love blowing raspberries. I just thought of it as, “Hey.” Some of my medical friends that I work with or colleagues who thought home birth was so dangerous, look how proactive they were. There are some midwives who think they can do it but they don't help at the right time or they don't transfer quickly enough. My midwife always said, “I will never second-guess your intuition. If you say that you need to go to the hospital, I'm going to follow your guidance. We're never going to risk anything and we're never going to cut things close.” That's why I felt so comfortable with this team. I had an emergency transfer plan and I had a non-urgent transfer plan. Everything was spelled out very nicely. I knew they weren't going to push the limit. Meagan: Yes. Amy: I just had to tell myself that she didn't have resuscitation equipment. She needed extra hands. When I went through the postpartum follow-ups, they were so wonderful. They come at one day. They come at three days. A lot of that was very therapeutic for me to talk about the why. I didn't even realize at that time that she was born that it was one of the reasons. She really didn't have anything with her. A lot of it was in her trunk because we weren't planning to have the baby that quickly. I think I had this long, drawn-out early labor phase and that's just how my body was in the past. In my first two other labor, I went from 4-10 with an epidural in an hour. I think my body does this pause until I relax and then I go real quick. That's just how it has been with the other two. So yeah. I think if you have some parts that might– and it's okay for parts to be traumatic. It can still be a beautiful birth if there are parts that don't go perfectly as planned. I think that's one of the things I had to work through a lot, but it was just still very healing. I just had to look at the why. That's how I got through that part. I didn't love sharing that part at first because I didn't want people to say, “I told you so,” from some of my more medically-minded friends and colleagues. I think shoulder dystocia is scary, but I think after hearing some other birth stories, I feel like, some doctors aren't even as skilled at handling dystocias as the midwives are or they jump to way more intense interventions because they can and midwives have to have the skills. Meagan: I just love that you did. I love that you did share that because it's not your traditional– it's what people fear when they have home birth of having to transfer and EMS. That's what I noticed is that I love that you were like, “I had to break it down to the why and not let that make it be traumatizing.” She really had nothing, so she was only being the smartest midwife she could be in case this little baby needed help. She knew that this other midwife wasn't close and couldn't make it to her in time, so she got the help. I love that you pointed that out because really, most emergencies can be handled within an appropriate time. I know that there are always nuances, but I love that you are like, they got there and were like, “Are you good? Okay, bye.” Amy: I know. I mean, yeah. I always had a little fear of hemorrhaging even though I never had. I had a little fear of, I don't know, other major things like a dystocia or malposition where I'm not going to be able to push baby out because in my past, I had it and I think it's important to know that having an assisted delivery for my third, for my first VBAC, really cut my confidence down. Meagan: I'm sure. Amy: It really made me not believe in my body and I kept going, “Well, I really didn't push the baby out myself last time,” because he really did jump to interventions really quickly for whatever reason. He pushed the time clock. So I kept going to my midwife like, “But I don't really have the ‘proven pelvis' because I really didn't push that baby out myself. They helped him out.” I don't know where I was going with that, but I think–Meagan: Well, it placed some doubt. Amy: Yeah, it did place doubt. Meagan: It placed some doubt and that's hard and then you went and totally– the proven pelvis thing, it's like, no. You did. You're amazing. Amy: We did it. Yeah. She came out really, really without too much effort. You could see the midwife assistant helped her arm out, but really, we got her out. Meagan: You did it. Amy: I want to say too that for anybody who is nervous about midwifery and their skills, it was her 7th or 8th catch ever by herself and her first dystocia. I asked her just last night, “Were you internally freaking out? Because you were very calm and confident.” She was like, “No, but you know. It was definitely my first dystocia.” I'm like, “Well, I'm almost glad you did it on your own because I hoped it built your confidence as a midwife.” Meagan: Exactly. Amy: If she had that situation. Again, I don't want the whole story to be focused on that one moment and that one instance and be labeled with this shoulder dystocia, but I do think that it's important for poeple who have a history of large babies to know that it doesn't have to keep you from having a low-intervention birth or an out-of-hospital birth. You just have to trust yourself and do what you're most comfortable with. It came down to me. This is where I felt safest and I knew that if I went to the hospital, in the past, one intervention always led to just another intervention that led to a more difficult delivery than it had to be and I just knew that walking into the hospital, I was just not going to have the opportunity to probably have no interventions unless I showed up crowning. I felt safest at home. I hired a team I felt safest with. If I could give any advice, it would be to just think about that and where you're going to feel most comfortable and in control, safest, and hire a team that you feel 100% comfortable with. Meagan: Yes. Thank you for sharing. Thank you. Thank you. I do love all of it. I love every single detail. I love that you shared the ups and the downs. I noticed you were alone for a minute and then that's what your body needed and then you kicked right back into gear. That is just amazing. I want to talk a little bit before we get going on cervical exams. Okay. So let's talk about cervical exams. In the hospital, they are way more likely to perform them. Then out of the hospital, they don't. I don't want to make it sound like we are saying that out of the hospital is better than in the hospital at all. That's just the way the system kind of goes in the hospitals. We have standard cervical exams. So cervical exams before labor, let's talk a little bit about that. Are they necessary? That's a big question. Do we have to start having cervical exams before we're even in labor? Because we have so many providers and even out-of-hospital providers that will say, “Oh, let's just check your cervix and see where it's at,” or they'll say, “Well, we're getting to that 39-week mark. We'd better check your cervix and see if you're going to be capable of having a VBAC.”The question is are they necessary? No. They are not necessary. It does not tell us anything. It really doesn't. All it does is help your curiosity and tell someone where you are on that day in that moment. That is not going to necessarily change anything to predict the future. It's not going to predict the future. If you are 1 centimeter dilated and 40% effaced or something like that at your 39-week visit, that does not mean that your body is not going to do it and you're not going to be able to have a VBAC. What does it help? Nothing, really. Maybe your curiosity. What does it hurt? Well, they can be uncomfortable. It can cause some prodromal labor if they are in there and they are too aggressive and it is stimulating things. It can hurt us emotionally because if we are getting this number and we are being told things at 39, 40, or 38 weeks even. We've had some people. That's really, really hard to hear because then you start doubting yourself. It hurts us emotionally and places doubt. Are you needing a cervical exam before labor? No. Women of Strength, no. If you do not feel like you want one, you do not have to have one. Say no. Say, “Maybe next time.” And maybe next time you want one. Maybe next time, you are still like, “Maybe next time.” So that's before labor. Now let's talk about cervical exams in labor. You know, there are actually no real deep studies demonstrating that there are actually clinical benefits in routine exams before labor, but then in labor, they are doing it all of the time too and there's not a ton of solid evidence that even tells us that it's going to tell us anything but, again, what it is in that very moment. What can cervical exams in labor tell us? Well, it can tell us what we are in that very moment. It can give us an idea. It can appease our curiosity. It can tell a provider a station, a station of the baby whether how high or how low a baby is. It can help– and this is help, not tell exactly– a provider see where a baby is position-wise. But even then, you really have to be dilated enough. Your baby has to be low enough. Sometimes, the water, they can't even tell through the bag of water if there is a bag of water and things like that. So yeas. It can help with the position, but it's not going to always be sure exactly. Okay, so let's see what else it can help with. Induction– if we are going in for an induction, it can help us know a base and a starting point and what method of induction may be appropriate at that time. Okay, so if there's a medical reason or a desired reason for an induction, you may want to get a cervical exam to see what you're going to do because they may want to place a Foley or you may be dilated enough and they may just start Pitocin. Or sometimes, from the mom's standpoint, a cervical exam can sometimes be unofficial– again, it goes back to curiosity, but on their debate on an epidural. Maybe they are like, “I'm really, really tired, but if I'm past a 6, then I'll keep going. If I'm a 3, I need a break.” Again, it's a mental thing. But when would we maybe not? This is another thing. We have a lot of providers standardly every two hours, every two hours, putting their fingers in vaginas. Every two hours. Amy: No, thank you. Meagan: We are introducing things that we don't need to be introducing like bacteria and the risk of infection. So when would you want to say, “Heck to the no?” When do we want to say, “Hell no”? I'm just going to say it. When do we want to say it? Well, we just kind of mentioned it. Maybe if your water has been broken for a long time or just broken at all. Maybe we don't want to introduce that. Maybe we've been told in a previous exam that we've had a bulging bag because we can have an accidental rupture of membranes with a cervical exam. Not too much has changed. In your story, if you were to have gotten an exam further before they left, they would have been like, “Okay, well not much has changed, but let's still check your cervix anyway.” But instead, they were like, “Not much has changed right now. It's kind of slowed down. Why don't we just take a break? We'll leave. You hang.” Versus, “Well, let's do a cervical exam.” If not much has changed, probably not much has changed. They don't feel good, so if you've had a previous cervical exam that didn't feel very good and not much has changed and it's only been two hours, it's probably still not going to feel super good. This is another thing. If one nurse came in two hours ago and now we have another nurse coming in, we probably don't want to do that because guess what, you guys? They are subjective. Is that the right word? I don't even know if that's the right word. They're not always accurate. My hand and your hand are different sizes. My fingers are different lengths and everything and everyone's perspective is a little different. You may get a, “Oh, you're at 5 centimeters,” and then you may get a, “Oh, you're 3 centimeters.” Or, “Oh, you're baby's at 0 station,” or “Oh, you're baby's at +2 station.” It's never a full-on guarantee. A big question is, “Can I say no to a cervical exam in labor?” Again, the answer is yes. You can say no. Never feel like you have to have a cervical exam. That doesn't mean– maybe it's changing from you don't want one now and then maybe you want one later, but you do not have to have a cervical exam and there's really not a ton that it really tells us what we're going to be in three hours. It's just not. It's just not. So anyway, I'm going to get off my rant about cervical exams, but I don't love them. I also didn't have many. I did have some at my birth, but I didn't have many. You know, I've been to births just like yours where we've never known how dilated. We fixate on this dilation number so hard and we don't need to.So, Women of Strength, your cervix does not need to be checked. It does not need to tell anybody any information. If you want the information, get it but just know that even when you get that information, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be 5, 6, 7, 10 centimeters in the next hour or three hours. Look at Amy. She went from 4 to 10 or whatever. We don't even know in this situation with this last birth, really. She went from chill labor to intense active labor to a baby out. We have no idea where she was and that's okay. But do you want to know what I can tell you? She's got a beautiful baby in her arms right now. Amy: I do think that you have to know yourself. I know people love to know the information, but I think I would have been really discouraged had I known maybe I was 4-5 when my team left after the first 12 hours, and then I think it would have been a huge mental block. Then your body can shut down. Who knows if labor would have started back up or kept going? Part of me goes, “Man, I'd love to know where I was just so I could piece it together and tell the story with the centimeters and just maybe help someone else,” but I'm also like, “I dilated to a 10 and we knew it was time to push because my body pushed.” I think the surrendering was what I needed personally and I think that route was the best for me. For some people, that would stress them out to not know, but I think for us it was helpful. Meagan: Yeah. Amy: I do love that there are options and I do think you need to advocate for that in the hospital because you do get pressured a lot to get checked. I will say that. Meagan: Yes, you do. Amy: For sure. We know that. Meagan: All right. We will let you guys go. I will get off my cervical exam rant and we will catch you next week. Amy: Thank you for having Juniper and I. We are so, so happy to share our story so thank you so much. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Kimberley: Is ERP traumatizing? This is a question I have been seeing on social media or coming up in different groups in the OCD and OCD-related disorders field. Today, I have Amy Mariaskin, PhD, here to talk with us about this idea of “Is ERP traumatizing” and how we might work with this very delicate but yet so important topic. Thank you, Amy, for being here. WHY MIGHT PEOPLE THINK ERP IS TRAUMATIC?  Kimberley: Let's just go straight to it. Why might people be saying that ERP is traumatic or traumatizing? In any of those kinds of terms, why do you think people might be saying this? Amy: I think there's a number of reasons. One of which is that a therapy like ERP, which necessitates that people work through discomfort by moving through it and not moving around it or sidestepping it, is different than a lot of other therapies which are based more on support, validation, et cetera, as the sole method. It's not to say that ERP doesn't have that. I think all good therapy has support and validation. However, I think that's part of it. The fact that's baked into the treatment, you're looking at facing discomfort and really changing your relationship with discomfort. I think when people hear about that, that's one reason that it comes up. And then another reason, I think, is that there are people who have had really negative experiences with ERP. I think that while that could be true in a number of different therapeutic modalities and with a number of different clinicians and so forth, it is something that has gained traction because it dovetails with this idea of, well, if people are being asked to do difficult things, then isn't that actually going to deepen their pain or worsen their condition rather than alleviate it? That's my take. Kimberley: When I first heard this idea or this experience, my first response was actual shock because, as an ERP therapist and someone who treats OCD, I have seen it be the biggest gift to so many people. I've heard even Chris Trondsen, who often will say that this gave him his life back, or—he's been on the show—Ethan Smith, or anyone really who's been on the show talk about how it's the most, in their opinion, like the most effective way to get your life back and get back to life and live your life and face fear and all of those things.  DO PEOPLE FEEL ERP IS A DIFFICULT TREATMENT? I had that first feeling of surprise and shock, but also then asked more questions and asked about their experience of ERP being very pressured or feeling too scared or too soon, too much too soon, and so forth. Do you have any other ideas as to why people might be experiencing this difficult treatment? Amy: I do. I think that sometimes, like any other therapy, if you're approaching therapy as a technician and not as a clinician, and you're not as a therapist really being aware of the cues that you're getting from the very brave people sitting in front of you, entrusting their care to you—if we're not being clinicians rather than technicians, we can sometimes just follow a protocol indiscriminately and without respect to really important interpersonal dynamics like consent and context, personal history, if there's not an awareness of the power dynamic in the room that a therapist has a lot of power.  We work with a lot of people as well who might have people pleasing that if you're going to be quite prescriptive about a certain treatment, you do this, and then you do this, and then you do this without taking care to either lay the foundation to really help somebody understand the science of how ERP works or get buy-in from the front end. I know we'll talk a little bit more about that, as well as there's a difference between exposure and flooding. There's a difference between exposure that serves to reconnect people with the parts of their lives that they've been missing, or, as I always call it, reclaims. We want to have exposures that are reclaims, as opposed to just having exposures that generate negative emotion in and of itself.  Now, sometimes there are exposures that just generate negative emotions, because sometimes that's the thing to practice. There are some people who feel quite empowered by these over-the-top exposures that are above and beyond what you would do to really have a reclaim. I'm going to go above and beyond for an exposure, and I'm going to do something that is off the wall. I am eating the thing off of the toilet, or I have intrusive thoughts about harming myself, and I'm going to go to the top of the parking garage, and I'm really going to lean all the way over. Would I do that in my everyday life? No. There are some clients for whom that is not something that they're willing to do or it's not something that's important for them to do to reconnect with the life that they want to live, and there are others who are quite empowered.  If you're a therapist and you don't take care to listen to the feedback from clients and let their voice be a part of that conversation, then you may end up, again, as a technician, prescribing things that aren't going to land right, and that could result in some harm. My heart goes out to anyone who's had that experience, because I think that's valid. Kimberley: I will be completely honest. I think that my early training as an ERP therapy clinician, because I was new, meant that I was showing up as a technician. When I heard this, again, I said my first thought was a little bit of shock, but then went, “Oh, no, that does make sense.” When I was an intern, I was following protocols and I was learning. We all, as humans, make mistakes. Not mistakes so much as if I feel like I did anything wrong, but maybe went too fast with a patient or pushed too hard with a patient or gave an exposure because another person in supervision was saying that that worked for their client, but I was learning this skill of being attuned to my client, and that was a learning process. I can understand that some people may have had that experience, even me. I'm happy to admit to that early in my training, many years ago. Amy: That's a great point. I think if we're all being honest with ourselves, whether it be within the context of ERP or otherwise, there is a learning curve for therapists as well. I think going back to the basic skills and tenets of what it means to have a positive therapeutic relationship is that so much of that has to do with the repair as well. If there are times, because there will be times when you misjudge something or a client says, “I really think that I'm ready to try this,” then we say things like when exposures go awry, when the worst-case scenario happens, or what have you.  That's another philosophical question because I think in doing exposures, we're not necessarily, at least my style, saying the bad thing's not going to happen. It's about accepting the risk and uncertainty, which is a reasonable amount. However, I think when those things happen where it does feel like, “Hey, this felt like too much too soon,” or this felt like, “Wow, I wasn't ready for this,” or “I don't feel like that's exactly what I consented to. You said we were going to do this, and then you took an extra step”—I think being able to create an environment where you can have those conversations with clients and they feel comfortable bringing it up with you and you can do repair work is also important. That it's not just black or white like, “This happened and I feel traumatized.” Again, I don't want to sound like I'm blaming anybody who's had that experience, but I'm just saying that I think that happens on a micro level, probably to all of us at some point.  I think it's also important to acknowledge, and later we're going to talk about it, but the notion of the word ‘traumatizing' is a little bit difficult for me to hear as well because I think from the perspective of an evidence-based practitioner, the treatments that we have, even for so-called big T trauma, many of them integrate in exposure. All of my first-line treatments, including ones that maybe come at it a little bit more obliquely like EMDR or something like that, which is not something that I personally use, are certainly out there as like a second-line trauma treatment. But things like prolonged exposure and cognitive processing therapy, they all have this exposure component to them. Even the notion that if there's trauma, you can't go there or that talking about hard things is traumatizing. I don't know. Can we talk a little bit about that? Because I don't know if that's something you've thought about too, that it's hard to reconcile. Kimberley: Yeah. Let me give a personal experience as somebody who had a pretty severe eating disorder. I was doing exposure therapy, but I didn't get called that, and I didn't know what to be that at the time. But I had to go and eat the thing that I was terrified to eat. While some people might think, “Well, that's not a hard exposure,” for me, it was a 10 out of 10. I wanted to punch my therapist in the face at the idea that she would suggest that I eat these things. I'm not saying this is true for other people; I'm just giving a personal experience. I'm actually really glad that she held me to these things because now I can have full freedom over the things that used to run my life. I know that there is nothing on any menu I can't eat. If I had to eat on any plane, whatever they served me, I knew I was able to nourish my body with what was served to me, which I didn't have before I did that.  The other piece is somebody who has also been through trauma therapy. A lot of it required me to go back and relive that event over and over. Even though I again wanted to run away and it felt like my brain was on fire, that too was very helpful. But what was really helpful was how I reframed that event. If I was doing it and, as I was doing it, I was saying, “This is re-traumatizing me,” it was a very bad experience. But if I was saying, “This is an opportunity for me to learn how to have our full range of emotions, even the darker stuff,” that ended up being a very important therapeutic experience for me. That's just my personal experience. Do you want to speak to that? Amy: Yeah. I wasn't planning on speaking to this part of it, but I will say as well that having had a traumatic event—a single event, big T trauma—that happened at my place of employment years ago. This is over 10 years ago now, which involved being held at gunpoint, which involved a hostage-type situation. It's interesting when you talk about trauma, that you want to tell the whole story, but I'm like, “Oh, we don't have enough time,” which is interesting because our brains first don't want to tell the stories or we want to bury them. But suffice to say that after this very painful, very terrifying experience, after which all the hallmark symptoms of hypervigilance and quick to startle and images in my head and avoidance of individuals who looked like this particular individual and what have you. The most powerful thing for me in knowing this as somebody who works in exposure protocols, going back to work and being so kind to myself as I was, again, I come back to this word reclaim. It doesn't happen overnight. It's not something I wish there were. I do wish there's, “Oh yeah, we just push this button in our brains, and then that's just where we feel resilient again.”  But the process of building resilience for me was confronting this environment, reclaiming this environment. I think any exposure protocol has the ability to have that same effect if the framing is there and if it resonates with the person. Being somebody who's such a believer in exposure therapy for my clients, I was able to step into a role where I came out of that situation feeling so empowered and the ability to hold all of my experience gently and with compassion, as opposed to sweeping it under the rug and then having it come out sideways. Kimberley: I really appreciate you bringing that up because, similarly, I stowed mine down for many years because I refused to look at it until I was forced by another event to have to look at it. I think that's a piece of this work too. You have to want to face it as part of treatment. In my case, I either avoid the things that are so important to me or I am going to have to face this; I am going to have to. I showed up and made that choice. I think that's also a piece of it, knowing that that's an opportunity for you to go and be kind and to train your brain in different ways.  HOW TO MAKE ERP ETHICAL AND RESPECTFUL We're speaking directly now about some ideas and solutions to making ERP ethical and respectful. Are there other ways that someone who's undergoing ERP, considering ERP, or has been through it—other things we might want to encourage them to do moving forward that might make this a more empowering and validating experience for them? Amy: That's a great question because I think we can talk about it both from the perspective of clients who are looking for a new therapist as well as what therapists can do. But if we start first with clients and maybe you're out there, and it's been something you've either been hesitant to engage with because of some of these ideas about it being harmful or you've had a negative experience in the past, I do think that there is a mindset shift into feeling really empowered and really willing.  The empowerment part is coming in and bringing in-- your fears about ERP are also fears that can be worked on. If you're white-knuckling from the first moment of like, “Okay, I'm in here, I know I'm supposed to do this. I already hate it and it hasn't started,” sharing that with a clinician. I know I'm used to hearing that. I'm very used to hearing that. I've had folks come in who have been in supportive therapy, talk therapy, or other modalities that haven't been effective for many, many years. There is a part of me-- I'm sorry, this is a tangent, but it's a little soapboxy tangent. I feel like when I think about my clients who've had therapy for sometimes 10, 20 years and it hasn't been effective, I don't think we talk enough about how harmful that is for people, like putting your life on hold for 10 or 20 years. I don't hear the word necessarily ‘traumatizing,' but that can be harmful as well. People will go through that.  BE OPEN WITH YOUR ERP THERAPIST After these contortions to maybe even avoid ERP because it's scary, they'll come in, and I welcome them, saying, “I'm really nervous about this,” because guess what? Saying that aloud is a step in the direction of exposure. You're owning it. And then having a therapist who can say, “I'm so proud of you for being here.” This is exposure number one. Sitting down on this couch, here we are. Well done, check and check. Because I think that a therapist who's looking at exposure, not just as what's on a strict hierarchy, or even from an inhibitory learning perspective, like a menu—exposure is what you're doing day to day to help yourself get closer to the life that you want and the values you have. When you said, “I can eat anything because I want to nourish my body,” that's a value. When I say ‘empowerment,' like empowerment to discuss that with your therapist. And then that shift into willingness versus motivation or comfort or like, “Oh, I want to wait till the right moment,” or “Things are tough now. I don't want to add an extra tough thing.” I know you're not here to tell anybody, “Well, this is the way you should think.” But if there's any room to cultivate even a nugget of willingness to say, “I can do something difficult, and I am willing to do difficult things on the path toward the life that I want,” those would be two things that come to mind right away. Kimberley: Yeah, I agree. It takes me to the second piece for a client. I think a huge piece of it is transparency with your therapist or clinician. There have been several times where we've discussed an exposure—again, this was more in my earlier days—agreed that that would be helpful for them, gone to do it, and then midway through it, them saying, “I felt like I had to please you, but I'm so not ready for this,” or “I was too embarrassed because this is such a simple daily task and I should be able to do it.” I think it's okay to really speak to your therapist and share like, “I don't know how I feel about this. Can we first just talk about if I'm ready?” We don't want to do that to the degree of it becoming compulsive, but I want to really encourage people who are undergoing treatment of any kind to be as completely honest as you can. Amy: Right. I think that, again, it's an interesting dynamic because people are coming to specialists because we do have the knowledge and awareness of protocols and so forth. But again, I think mental health is-- well, I wish all medical health folks were a little bit more open to these kinds of conversations too. But that being said, I think having that honesty and knowing that-- if you go in and you say, “Oh, I'm a little bit nervous,” and you're getting pushback of, “Well, I'm the doc, this is what you do. Here's step one, here's step two,” frankly, there are going to be therapists who are like that regardless of modality.  It was interesting because I was talking to somebody about this and about—I think if we frame it as a question—"Is ERP inherently harmful” is a really different question than “Can ERP be harmful?” I think any modality implemented without that clinical touch can be potentially harmful.  I know your motto is, “You can do hard things.” That kind of shift as well is so powerful at the beginning of ERP. You've been transparent. You've said, “Look, here are my fears about this.”  And then often, what I will do as a clinician if people don't get to that place of like, I” can do things through the discomfort, there's no going around it,” is ask them about things. If they're adults, it could even be like, “When you were a little kid, did you have any fears, and how did you get over those? What was that like?” Not always, of course, but 9 nine times out of 10, it is some kind of like, “Well, I did the thing.” Or sometimes it's more complicated, “Well, I did the thing and then I got support from others, and then I learned more.” But I think people have this innate capacity to learn by changing behavior and to do things that are outside of their comfort zone, and that doesn't have to mean way outside of their comfort zone. Often, that notion of these hard experiences or these difficult thoughts that you need to-- people will come in and feel like, “Well, I need not to be thinking about them.” That's not really an option. Being a human with a full life, there are going to be things that are provocative. But I think I've heard you talk about this notion of shifting from wanting protection from negative thoughts or discomfort to almost willingness and acceptance. I love that as well. Kimberley: I agree. I want to also maybe back up a little bit and speak to that just a little bit. I do hear the majority of people saying this, coming from those who are seeking treatment from unspecialized people. Even this morning, people are emailing me saying, “I'm following this OCD coach online, and they're saying, ‘Follow my six-month program and you will be OCD-free.'” That sounds good. I'll do whatever you say if that's what I can give you. There is a power dynamic.  But then you're in the program and being told that you have literally two months to go and you better double down or you will fail my program. I think that urgency to get better can cause you to sometimes agree to things or seek out treatment from people who aren't super trained and who aren't taking an approach of, “Let's practice being uncomfortable, let's practice having every single emotion kindly and compassionately so that there is no emotion you can't ever have in your lifetime through the darkest ages.” They're more coming from a, “I'm on a timeline here and I have to get this done, so I'm going to do these things that are absolutely terrifying.” I think a lot of people are speaking to this. Amy: I think that's right. A lot of times, people have been-- I think we, as a field, like mental health professionals, there's this delicate balance of wanting to instill hope and really talk about like this works and to not overpromise or not simplify the circuitous way that we get there together as a therapist and client, because there are a lot of sound bites out there. I know you and I have talked about this. It's like these “better in 12 weeks” or “better in with these five tips” or what have you. I think even looking at research, and I have a strong research background, I was training to be a researcher when I was in grad school. I think it's important as well to remember that even with research, we are looking at-- if we say like, “Hey, this is a 12-week protocol that's been effective.” Okay, what does effective mean? Does effective mean that you get to pick up your baby again? Or does it mean, oh no, it probably means an X amount reduction in the Y box? Does effective mean it was that amount of reduction for everyone? Well, no, it's averages and things like that.  I can wear both hats and say, this is an incredibly empirically validated treatment that works for many people. It's not going to work the same way for every person, so why would we as clinicians go in and be like, “Here's a timeline?” You can't do that. Kimberley: Yeah. Let's speak to the therapist now. What can therapists be doing to make this a more effective, compassionate, and respectful practice? Do you have anything that you want to speak to first? Amy: Yes. I think that if we start at the beginning of therapy itself and the steps that you go through, the very first step is assessment because exposure is something that we know is very effective for anxiety, to a lesser degree, disgust, and not quite right feelings as well, and some sensory issues, to a lesser extent. But exposure is effective for certain things. We want to make sure that those are the things that are occurring. So, making sure because somebody can have OCD, or can have anxiety, or something like that and also have other things going on. I think sometimes when exposure is treated-- exposure and response prevention. I know we talk a lot about exposure, but even response prevention, that side of things, it's just this one size fits all. Okay, something you don't like doing, we're going to expose you to it, and something that alleviates your distress, we're going to eliminate those. If you're doing that outside of the context of where it's clinically indicated for OCD, i.e., areas that provoke obsessions and compulsive behaviors, then you're really missing the target.  I know there's been a lot of discussion about neurodiversity and for autistic people who may have routines and things like that or may have stereotypies or stimming behaviors, things that are pleasant for them or self-regulatory to really get a good assessment in there. Again, you're not having people do exposures or engage in response prevention in places where it's not clinically indicated. I think even if somebody has a trauma history, for something like PTSD, exposure is often, as I mentioned, a part of treatment protocols. The way in which we are doing those kinds of exposures and really centering the sense of agency in the client who's had that sense of agency taken away by prior experiences is really important. I think assessment is the first thing that comes to mind, followed-- Kimberley: I would add-- sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I would add even assessment for depression. A lot of what we teach in ERP school for therapists and what I teach my staff is, if a client has depression, I might do more exposures around uncertainty and not around their worst-case scenario happening because sometimes that can make the depression come in so strong that they can't get out of bed the next day. We can tailor exposure even to make depression, and so forth.  I think it is so important that we do get that assessment and really understand the big picture before we proceed. Even understanding other anxiety disorders, health anxiety, the history of trauma with health, and so forth, or even the things you were taught as a child, can be really important to understand before we proceed with exposure. Amy: I love that you added that in—the things that we were taught as a child—because I love this story. I mean, I love it and hate it, and you'll understand why in a moment. But when I was on my internship—this was back in 2008, 2009—there was a fellow intern. He and I were co-presenting on a case, and we had the other interns. They were asking questions, and this was a makeshift IOP case. We were both doing a little bit of individual therapy, and people in the audience were asking questions, and somebody asked about childhood. This was an adult. The other intern said, “We don't care about that stuff.” I said, “Time out, I care about it,” and we all laughed.  I get where he was coming from in the sense that he was like, “Hey, here are the symptoms, here's the protocol for the symptoms, and it is important.” Like you said, I mean, even from a CBT, this is very consistent with CBT and how we form core beliefs and schemas and our ideas about the world and fairness and justice, and all of that is a part of it. We don't want to lose the C part, the cognitive part as well in ERP. But I love that you said that about depression as well, because even something co-occurring can just nudge. It just nudges the way that we do exposure and so forth. Kimberley: Yeah. I think culturally too. Think about the different traditions that come with different cultures or religions. Sometimes some of their rituals can seem compulsive. If I didn't know that that's why they're doing these, I could easily, as an untrained or ineffective therapist, be like, “Just expose yourself.” We've got to break this ritual, without actually understanding, like, is this actually a value-based ritual that you're doing because of a religion or a culture or tradition that is in line with your values? I think that's very, very important. After assessment, what would you say the next steps are? Amy: I think that-- and this is the part where I'm really going to own that. I get really excited, and I just want to jump into treatment. This is me, I'm calling myself out. But I think psychoeducation, that not only very clearly lays out the evidence and the why, like here's the process, here's why we're asking you to do these things that are really difficult, here are the underlying patterns, and here's what we're looking out for, and so forth.  I think not only that, but also laying out very clearly what the expectations are. “This is how this is going to look,” and maybe at that point as well, clinicians saying—this is very collaborative—"I am here to provide this information, and then together we are going to formulate a treatment plan and formulate these exposures.” I have heard so many people who do a lot of ERPs say how proud they are by the end of therapy when clients come in and they say, “I was thinking I need to do this as my exposure.” They're really taking that ownership.  I think not only again talking about the science and all the charts and things like that, but really talking about this as a collaborative, consensual process, that it's like, “I'm handing this off to you, and this is going to be something you have for the rest of your life.” Kimberley: Yeah. I'll tell a similar story. I had a patient who-- I'll even be honest, I don't think this was in my internship. This was in my career as an OCD therapist. But my client was just doing the exposures that he and I had agreed to. He would come back and be very frustrated with this process until he came to me and said, “I need you to actually stop and explain to me why I'm doing this.” I thought I had done a thorough job of that. I truly, really, honestly did. But he needed me to slow down and explain. We got out the PET scans of the brain, and I had a model of the brain. I showed him what part of the brain was being triggered and where the different parts of why-- from that moment, he was like, “I got you. I know what we're doing. I'm on board now. I got this.”  I think that I was so grateful that he was like, “Hold up, you need to actually slow down and help me to understand because this still doesn't make sense to me.” This was a very important conversation. In my case, I think it's checking in and saying, “Do you understand why we're doing this? Do you understand the science of this?” I think it's so important. What else might a therapist do? Amy: I love that. I was just going to say, I love that you create that culture because that's what I was talking about earlier. Sometimes we don't quite get it right. And then it's like, “What can I do better?” It's such a powerful question.  Knowing the why of ERP and then also the why, like, why is it worth it for you? Why is this? ACT has these wonderful metaphors about it. We've heard the monsters on the bus analogy. You're driving the bus, and all your symptoms are the passengers yelling out or different fears you might have. But so often we don't talk about, where are you driving the bus toward? Where are you going?  I get misty when I think about this. I get almost a little teary because I think that people with OCD have such incredible imaginations, and yet, having OCD can make it so hard to dream and dream about what you truly want. Especially if it's quite entrenched, it can just feel like, “Well, that's a life that other people have. I don't get to have that.” On the one hand, there's this expansive imagination about illnesses, danger, harming others, or what have you. These things that are just dystonic—you don't want to be thinking about them.  I love to see people exercise that other part of their imagination and really encourage them to dream because if you have that roadmap, or rather that end destination of what you want your life to be, those very concrete moments that you want-- for some people, it's like, “I want to have a family,” or “I want to travel,” or “I want to have the freedom to be around whomever I want to be around, regardless of the thoughts that come up,” whatever it is. Sometimes it can feel scary to even dream and envision that, either through values work or if it's somebody who had a later onset thinking about where were you heading before. How did this derail you? What were you heading toward? I think that's really important as well. If we don't do that-- I mean, frankly, I wouldn't want to do anything if I didn't know my why. Kimberley: No, agreed. I think that another thing—I often talk about this with my therapists in supervision—is one thing that I personally do-- and this is just me personally. Every therapist has their own way of doing it, but I often will ask my patients, “What kind of Kimberley do you need today?” I have the question as an opening where they can be like, “No, we're good. Let's just get to work.” We knew what we were going to do and so forth. My patients now know to say, “I need you to actually push me a little today.” They're coming to me saying, “I want you to push you.” Or they'll say, “I'm feeling very vulnerable today. I'm on my period,” or “It's been a hard week,” or “I haven't slept.” I don't consider that me accommodating them. I consider that me being attuned to them. It might be that I might go, “Okay, but there's been several weeks in a row that you've said that. Can we have a conversation?” It's not that I'm going to absolutely let them off with avoidant compulsions, but I love offering them the opportunity to ask, what kind of Kimberley do you need? Sometimes they'll say, “I need you to push me today, but I also need you to really encourage me because I have run out of motivation and I don't have a lot.”  I think that as clinicians, the more we can offer an opening of, what is it that you're ready for? What do you want to expose yourself today? Is there something coming up that you really need to be working on? I think those conversations create this collaborative experience instead of like, “I'm the master of treatment, and you're my follower” kind of model. Amy: Right. I love that, and I love the idea that we can be motivational, encouraging, and celebratory in the face of exposure. Like exposures, I do feel like there has been a shift, and perhaps with the shift away from the strict habituation paradigm in the field, where it's not like you have to just do the thing and be scared, be scared, be scared, be scared, be scared, and then it goes down. You can explore, “Hey, are you feeling stronger now? Are you feeling like I'm nervous, but I'm also curious?”  Again, some of this is just personal style, but I use a lot of humor. There are often a lot of inside jokes with clients and things like that. I don't see that as incompatible with really good exposure work because you're learning that you can be scared and laughing. You're learning that you can feel discomfort and empowerment. These kinds of things are huge. But again, I think when I was newer to ERP, there was a little bit of like, “Nope, we're not cracking a joke, because that would be avoiding negative emotion.” Kimberley: Yes. I remember that. Or being like, “I hope I don't trigger them. I'm not going to [unintelligible].” The joke is what created an attunement and a collaboration between the two of us, which I think can be so beautiful. Another question I ask during exposure is, would you like to keep going? Would you like to make it a little harder? How could we? Even if we don't, how might we? No pressure, but how might we make it so that they're practicing this idea of being curious about making decisions on their own? Because the truth is, I'm only seeing you for 50 minutes a week. You have to then go and do this on your own. We want the clients, us as therapists, to model to them a curiosity of like, “Oh, it's here.” Am I going to tell myself this is terrible and I can't handle it? Or am I going to be curious about what else I could introduce? Would I like to send them a text to a loved one while I do this exposure? How would I like to show up? What values do I want to show up with? Those questions can take the terror out of it. Amy: Yes. I think that all of this is hitting on something. I've noticed that oftentimes this notion of ERP is traumatizing. Again, not to discount anybody's personal experiences with it if that has been negative, but it's often based on this caricature of ERP that all those things that we're saying don't need to have that element of consent. It needs to have that collaborative nature, really good assessment, really good psycho-ed. I think that's something I just realized because I don't like feeling defensive about things. If I feel defensive, I'm like, “Uh-oh, this is a me thing.” I think in this case, it's because I'm seeing a lot of misinformation about ERP, or perhaps just poorly applied ERP. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. I want to be respectful of time. We could make this into a whole training easily, but let's end here on the healing because we've talked about everything today—ideas, concepts, mindsets, conceptualizations. But I also want to really make sure we are slowing down and creating a safe place where some people may actually, like you said, have had not great experiences. What might we do, and what might patients do in terms of healing moving forward? Amy: It's a good question. There's a couple of things. I think if it's something that we were talking about with the transparency and the talking, number one, finding support and finding support from, ideally, somebody who's going to understand ERP enough that they can speak to. That doesn't have to be the type of therapy that you're getting with them, but understands it well enough to have a conversation like this. Just knowing it should never feel disrespectful, it should never feel non-consensual, and if that was your experience, then—I mean, I hate to say this, but I do think it's true—I know I would want to know if somebody felt that way. If somebody was working with me and they felt that way, I know that can be quite a burden for people to reach out to someone with whom they've had a negative experience.  But I think if you're able to do that, that can be really helpful and really restorative, even if you're not looking for a response, even if it's just something that you're letting them know. If you still have a relationship with that therapist, or let's say it's a clinic where you saw a therapist and you ended up moving to a different therapist, consider sharing it with them directly. I think we live in a very contentious culture of, “Well, I've made my mind up. That's bad, and I'm moving on.”  But truly, I think validation also starts with self-validation. My hope is that even though we're both clearly ERP therapists who believe very strongly in its positive application for many people, we want to validate that if you've felt any harm, that's valid. I think that also starts with self-validation as a first means of healing and then seeking support. Kimberley: Yeah. What I think too, if you're not wanting to do that, which I totally understand, sharing with your new clinician. One of the questions we have about our intake is what therapy was helpful and why, and what therapy wasn't helpful and why. As you go with a new therapist, share with them, “This was my experience. This is what I found to be very effective. This is what I am very good at, but these are the things that I struggled with, and here's why.” And then giving them the education of your process so they can help you with that, I think, is really important.  I think you hit the nail on the head—also being very, very gentle. The administering of therapy is not a perfect science; it's a relationship. It's not always going to go well. I wish it could. I truly wish there was a way we could, but that doesn't mean that you're bad, that therapy won't work for you in the future, or that all therapists are similar to what your experience was. I think it's important to know that there are many therapists who want to create a safe place for you. Amy: That's so well said. Kimberley: Anything else you want to add before we finish up? Amy: No, no, I think this has been great. Again, anybody out there, I don't know. I feel like, as therapists, sometimes we're the holders of hope. If this could give you any hope, and again, ERP may not be the route that you choose, but just anyone who's felt like therapy hasn't been what you wanted, you deserve to find what's going to feel like the best, most helpful fit. Kimberley: Amy, I have wanted to do this episode for months now, and there is no one with whom I would feel as comfortable doing it as much as you. Thank you for creating a place for me to have this very hard conversation and a conversation I think we need to have. I'm again so grateful for you, your expertise, your kind heart, and your wisdom. Amy: Thank you. 

Amy Spurling is the Founder and CEO of Compt, helping companies build and scale flexible perks, stipends that delight teams. She explains how Compt's approach to benefits aligns with an employee's life stages, and shares insights from data that revealed the vast diversity of vendors utilized by employees. Amy talks about fundraising for Compt, highlighting the gender investment gap and the difficulties faced by female founders. She also shares her personal experiences as a lesbian founder and emphasizes the importance of a diverse workforce. She outlines Compt's mission to provide equitable compensation and foster a broader perspective within companies, the economic miss of not investing in female-founded companies, and the complexities of transitioning into different roles within a startup. Amy's leadership values of balance and belonging are explored, and she shares insights about navigating hurdles like SOC 2 and GDPR compliance. Additionally, they talk about trends in the tech industry, such as AI's use in healthcare and the potential for bias in software, along with data privacy issues. __ Compt.io (https://www.compt.io/) Follow Compt.io on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/compt/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/compthq/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/ComptHQ), or Xr (https://twitter.com/ComptHQ). Follow Amy Spurling on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyspurling/) or X (https://twitter.com/amyspurling). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. And with us today is Amy Spurling, Founder and CEO of Compt, helping companies build and scale flexible perks, stipends that delight teams. Amy, thank you for joining. AMY: Thanks so much for having me. VICTORIA: Amy, I saw in your LinkedIn background that you have a picture of someone hiking in what looks like a very remote area. So, just to start us off today, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about that. And what's your hobby there? AMY: Sure. I do spend a lot of time backpacking. That picture, I believe, was actually taken in Mongolia a couple of years ago. We spent ten days kind of hiking around in, I mean, everything is backcountry basically in Mongolia. So, spending a lot of time walking around, looking at mountains, is kind of my pastime. WILL: I have a question around backpacking itself. When you say backpacking, what does that mean? Does it mean you only have a backpack, and you're out in the mountains, and you're just enjoying life? AMY: It depends. So, in Mongolia, there were a couple of folks with camels, so carrying the heavy gear for us but still living in tents. My wife and I just did a backpacking trip in the Accursed Mountains in Albania, though, and everything was on our backpack. So, you're carrying a 35-pound pack. It has all your food, your water, your camping gear, and you just go. And you're just kind of living off the land kind of. I mean, you're taking food, so it's not like I'm foraging or hunting but living in the outback. WILL: Wow. What does that do for you just internally, just getting off the grid, enjoying nature? Because I know with tech and everything now, it's kind of hard to do that. But you've done that, I think you said, for ten days. Like, walk us through that experience a little bit. AMY: Some people use yoga, things like that, to go to a zen place, be calm, you know, help quiet their mind. For me, I need to do something active, and that's what I use this for. So getting off away from my phone, away from my laptop—those are not available to me when I'm in the mountains—and just focusing on being very present and listening to the birds, smelling the flowers. You know, pushing myself to where I'm, you know, exerting a lot of energy hiking and just kind of being is just...it's pretty fantastic. VICTORIA: And I'm curious, what brought you to decide to go to Albania to get to that experience? Because that's not a top destination for many people. But -- AMY: It is not. So, we travel a fair amount, and we backpack a fair amount. And the mountains there are honestly some of the most beautiful I've seen anywhere in the world. And so, we're always looking for, where can you get off the grid pretty quickly? Where can you be in the mountains pretty quickly in a way that still has a path so that you're not putting yourself in danger? Unless...I mean, we've done that too. But you want to make sure you have a guide, obviously, if you're going completely no path, no trail kind of camping, too. But it just looked really beautiful. We planned it actually for three years ago and had to cancel because it was May of 2020. And so, we've had this trip kind of on the books and planned for it for a while. VICTORIA: That's awesome. Yeah, I know of Albania because I had a friend who worked there for a few years. And she said the rock climbing there is amazing. And it actually has one of the last wild rivers in Europe. So, it's just a very remote, very interesting place. So, it's funny that you went there [laughs]. I was like, wait, other people also go to Albania. That's awesome. I love the outdoor space. Well, what a great perk or benefit to working to be able to take those vacations and take that time off and spend it in a way that makes you feel refreshed. Tell me more about Compt and your background. What led you to found this company? AMY: Sure. I've been in tech companies for, you know, over 20 years. I've been a CFO, a COO building other people's dreams, so coming in as a primary executive, you know, first funding round type of person, help scale the team, manage finance and HR. And I loved doing that, but I got really frustrated with the lack of tools that I needed to be able to hire people and to retain people. Because the way we compensate people has changed for the last 10, 15 years. And so, ultimately, decided to build a platform to solve my own problem and my own team's problems, and started that getting close to six years ago now. But wanted to build a tech company in a very different way as well. So, in the same way, I take time off, I want my team to take time off. So, we operate on a basis of everyone should be taking their time off. Don't check in while you're out. We'll make sure we're covered. You know, let's build a sustainable business here. And everybody should be working 40 to 45 hours a week, which is definitely not a startup culture or norm. WILL: Yeah. I love that. I was doing some research on Compt. And so, in your words, can you explain to everyone exactly what your company does? AMY: Sure. So, we build lifestyle benefit accounts for companies. And what that means...and the terminology keeps changing, so some people may call them stipends or allowances. But it's really looking at how you pull together employee perks, benefits that will help compete for talent. And right now, retention is kind of the key driver for most companies. How do I keep the people I have really happy? Competitive salaries are obviously table stakes. Health insurance for most industries is table stakes. So, it's, what else are you offering them? You can offer a grab bag of stuff, which a lot of companies try and do, but you get very low utilization. Or you can do something like a stipend or a lifestyle spending account, which is what we build, which allows for complete flexibility so that every employee can do something different. So that even if you're offering wellness, you know, what the three of us think about as wellness is likely very different. I spend a lot of money at REI, like, they are basically, like, as big as my mortgage. I spend so much money there because I want backpacking gear. Wellness for you folks may be a little bit different. And so, allowing for that personalization so everybody can do something that matters to them. VICTORIA: Right. And I love that it comes from a problem you found in your own experience of working with early-stage startups and being on the executive level and finance and building teams from the ground up. So, I'm curious, what lessons did you find in your previous roles that were maybe ten times more important when you started your own company? AMY: I learned so much through all of my prior companies and pulled in the lessons of the things that worked really well but then also the things that it was, like, wow, I would definitely do that different. DEI is very important to us. I knew building a diverse team was going to be a competitive advantage for us. And none of my prior teams really met that mark. You know, most of them were Boston-based, the usual kind of profile of a tech company: 85%-95% White guys, mostly from MIT, you know, very, very talented, but also coached and trained by the same professors for the last 20 years. So, I knew I wanted different perspectives around the table, and that was going to be really key. So, looking at non-traditional backgrounds, especially as we were looking at hiring engineers, for instance, that was really interesting to me because I knew that would be part of our competitive advantage as we started building up this platform that is employee engagement but very much a tax compliance and budgeting tool as well. VICTORIA: I love hearing that. And it's something I've heard from actually thoughtbot's founder, Chad. That is something he wished he invested more in when he first started it. So, I'm curious as to how that's played out from when you started to where you are now. You said, I think, it's been six years, right? AMY: January will be six years, so five and a half-ish, I guess, right now. I mean, it was a stated part of what we were going to do from day one. All of my prior companies wanted that as well. I don't think anybody starts out and says, "Hey, I'd really love a one-note company." No one says that. Everybody thinks that they're doing the right things and hiring the best talent. But what you do is you end up hiring from your network, which usually looks just like you. And when you get to be, you know, 100, 150 people and you're looking around going, wow, we have some gaps here, it's really hard to fill them because who wants to be the first and the only of whatever? You know, I've been the only woman on most management teams. So, for us, it was day one, make it part of the focus and make sure we're really looking for the best talent and casting a very wide net. So, right now, we're sitting at 56% female and 36% people of color, and somewhere around 18%-19% LGBTQIA. So, we're trying to make sure that we're attracting all those amazing perspectives. And they're from people from around the country, which I also think is really important when you're building a tech company. Don't just build in areas where you're in your little tech bubble. If you want to build a product that actually services everyone, you need to have other kind of cultural and country perspectives as well. VICTORIA: Yeah. And that makes perfect sense for what you described earlier for Compt, that it is supposed to be flexible to provide health benefits or wellness benefits to anyone. And there can be a lot of different definitions of that. So, it makes sense that your team reflects the people that you're building for. AMY: Exactly. WILL: Yeah. How does that work? How does Compt accomplish that? Because I know early on I was doing nonprofits and I was a decent leader. But I struggle to get outside of myself, my own bubble if that makes sense. So, like, that was before I had kids. I had no idea what it meant to have kids and just the struggles and everything if you have kids. So, there's so many different things that I've learned over the years that, like, just people have their own struggles. So, how does Compt accomplish the diversity of a company? AMY: So, it's so interesting you mentioned that. I was on a podcast the other day with somebody who was, like, "You know, we didn't really think about our benefits and how important they were." And then, the founder who was the person on the podcast, and he was like, "But then I had kids. And suddenly, I realized, and we had this amazing aha moment." I'm like, well, it's great you had the aha moment. But let's back it up and do this before the founder has children. Sometimes you need to recognize the entire team needs something different and try and support them. My frustration with the tools out there are there are tools that are like, hey, we're a DE&I platform. We will help you with that. You know, we've got a benefit for fertility. We've got a benefit for, you know, elder care. There's all kinds of benefits. These are great benefits, but they're also very, very specific in how they support an employee. And it's very small moment in time, usually. Whereas with something like Compt, where we say, "Hey, we support family," your version of family, having children is very different from my version of family, where I don't have children, but we both have families. And we can both use that stipend in a way that is meaningful for us. What puts the employee back in charge, what matters in their lives, instead of the company trying to read everyone's mind, which is honestly a no-win situation for anyone. So, it just makes it very, very broad. VICTORIA: Yes. And I've been on both sides, obviously, as an employee, but also previously role of VP of Operations. And trying to design benefits packages that are appealing, and competitive, and fair is a challenging task. So -- AMY: It's impossible. It's impossible. [laughs] VICTORIA: Very hard. And I'm curious what you found in the early stages of Compt that was surprising to you in the discovery process building the product. AMY: So, for me, I mean, discovery was I am the buyer for this product. So, I wanted this about five years before I decided to go and build it. And I was talking to other finance and HR professionals going around going, "All right, are you feeling this exact same pain that I'm feeling? Because it is getting completely insurmountable." We were all being pitched all these different platforms and products. Everybody had something they wanted to sell through HR to help attract, and engage and retain talent and all the things, right? But there's no tracking. It's not taxed correctly. And ultimately, no matter what you bring in, maybe 2% to 3% of your team would use it. So, you're spending all this time and energy in putting all this love into wanting to support your team, and then nobody uses the stuff that you bring in because it just doesn't apply to them. And so, I realized, like, my pivotal moment was, all right, none of this is working. I've been waiting five years for somebody to build it. Let's go build something that is completely vendor-agnostic. There's no vendors on this platform by design because everyone ultimately wants something different. And, you know, through that process, we were, of course, pushed by many VCs who said, "Hey, build your marketplace, build your marketplace, you know, that's going to be your moat and your special sauce." And I said, "No, no, no, that's not what we're going to do here because that doesn't solve that problem." And we finally had the data to prove it, which is fantastic. You know, we actually did a sample of 8,700 people on our platform, and we watched them for a year. And said, "How many different vendors are these 8,700 people going to use?" Because that's the marketplace we'd have to build because we have 91% employee engagement. Nobody can beat us in the industry. We've got the highest employee engagement of any platform in our category. So, how many different vendors could 8,700 people use in that time period? Do you guys have any guesses how many they used in that time period to get to that engagement? VICTORIA: Out of 8,700 vendors? AMY: No, 8,700 employees. So, how many different vendors they used in that time period. VICTORIA: Hmm, like, per employee, I could see maybe, like, 10? I don't know. Two? AMY: We saw 27,000 different vendors used across all the employees, so 27,000 different unique vendors. So, on average, every employee wants three unique vendors that no one else is using. VICTORIA: Oh wow. WILL: Wow. VICTORIA: Yeah, okay. [laughter] Right. AMY: So, it's just you can't build that, I mean, you could build that marketplace, but nobody's going to visit that marketplace because nobody wants to scroll through 27,000 things. And so, it just keeps changing. You know, and I saw that even with the woman who started the company with me, you know, when she...we, of course, use Compt internally. And she started using her wellness stipend. You know, at first, she was doing 5Ks. So, she'd register for the race. She'd go train. She'd do all the things. Then she got pregnant and had a baby and started shifting over to prenatal vitamins, to Lamaze classes, to, you know, mommy yoga, things like that. Then once she had the baby, it shifted again. And so, it allows for a company to flow with an employee's lifecycle without having to get into an employee's life stage and, "Hey, what do you need at this moment in time?" Employees can self-direct that, so it makes it easier for employees and a lot easier for companies who are not trying to...we don't want to map out every single moment of our employee's personal life. We shouldn't be involved in that. And so, this is a way to support them but also give them a little space too. WILL: I absolutely love that because that is, yes, that is a flow. Like, before you have kids, it's, like, yes, I can go run these 5Ks; I can do this. When you have kids, it totally changes. Like, okay, what can I do with my kids? So, workout, or that's my away time. So, I love that it's an ebb and flow with the person. And they can pick their own thing, like -- AMY: Right. We're all adults. WILL: Yes. [laughs] AMY: I think I sat there going; why am I dictating someone's health and wellness regimen? I am not qualified for this on any stretch. Like, why am I dictating what somebody's mental health strategy should be? That's terrifying. You're adults. You work with your professionals. We'll support it. WILL: Yes. I remember at one company I worked for; they had this gym that they had, you know, got a deal with. And I was so frustrated because I was like, that's, like, 45 minutes away from my house. AMY: [laughs] Right. WILL: It's a perk, but it means absolutely nothing to me. I can't use it. So yes, yeah. [laughs] AMY: Well, and, like, not everybody wants to work, say...there was, you know, we see a lot of that is there's been a transition over time. COVID really changed that as people couldn't go to gyms, and companies shifted to stipends. But you may not want to work out with your co-workers, and that's okay, too. Like, it's okay to want to do your own thing and be in your own space, which is where we see this kind of decline of the, you know, on-site company gym, which, you know, some people just don't want to do that. VICTORIA: Yeah. So, I love that you stayed true to this problem that you found and you backed it up with data. So, you're like, here's clear data on, say, why those VCs' advice was bad [laughs] about the marketplace. AMY: Ill-informed. They needed data to see otherwise. [laughs] VICTORIA: Yeah. Well, I'm curious about your experience going through fundraising and starting up for Compt with your background as a CFO and how that was for you. AMY: It was...I naively thought it would be easier for me, and maybe it was because I had all this experience raising money as a CFO in all these prior companies. But the reality is that women receive less than 2% of all funding, even though we start 50% of the businesses. And if you look at, you know, Black female founders, they're receiving, like, 0.3, 0.5% of funding. Like, it's just...it's not nice out there. You know, on average, a lot of VCs are looking at 3,000, 4,000, or 5000 different companies a year and investing in 10. And so, the odds of getting funded are very, very low, which means that you're just going to experience a whole lot of unique situations as a female founder. I saw that you folks work with LOLA, which is fantastic. I'm a huge fan of LOLA and kind of what their founders put together. And I've heard some amazing things about the pitches that she's done for VCs and that she's just not shy about what she's building. And I really appreciate that. It's never a fun situation. And it gets easier the later stages because you have more metrics, and data, and all of that. And we ultimately found phenomenal investors that I'm very, very happy to have as part of our journey. But it's definitely...it's not pretty out there is the reality. VICTORIA: Right. And I saw that you either attended or put on an event about the gender investment gap, which I think is what you just referred to there as well. So, I'm curious how that conversation went and if there were any insights about what the industry can do to promote more investment in women and people of color founders. AMY: So, that's actually coming up August 10th, and so that's coming up in a few weeks that we're going to be hosting that. I'm actually part of a small group that is spearheading some legislation in Massachusetts to help change this funding dynamic for female founders, which I'm pretty excited about. And California also has some legislation they're looking at right now. In Mass, we're looking at how fair lending laws can apply to venture capital. There are laws on the books on how capital gets distributed when you look at the banking system. But there's virtually no regulation when you look at venture funding, and there's no accountability, and there's no metrics that anybody is being held to. I don't believe that you know, just because I pitched a VC that they should be funding me, you know, it needs to be part of their thesis and all of those things. But when you see so much disparity in what is happening out there, bias is coming into play. And there needs to be something that helps level that playing field. And so, that's where legislation comes into play and helps change that dynamic. So, pretty excited about the legislation that's before both the Senate and the Mass State House, likely going to be heard this November. So, we're pretty excited about that. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design‑driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. WILL: So, Amy, you're talking a lot about diversity, inclusion, and just biases, and things like that. You're doing a great job with it. Your product is perfect for that because it reaches so many different levels. And I just want to ask you, why are you so passionate about it? Why is this so important to you? AMY: For me, personally, I am a lesbian founder. I am the only, you know, LGBTQ in many of my companies. And I'm always the, I mean, very frequently, the only woman in the boardroom, the only woman on the leadership team. That's not super comfortable, honestly. When you are having to fight for your place at the table, and you see things that could be done differently because you're bringing a different perspective, that, to me, is a missed opportunity for companies and for employees as well who, you know, there's amazing talent out there. If you're only looking at one flavor of talent, you're missing the opportunity to really build a world-class organization. And so, to me, it's both the personal side where I want to work with the best people. I want to work with a lot of different perspectives. I want to work with people who are bringing things to the table that I haven't thought about. But also, making sure that we're creating an environment where those people can feel comfortable as well, and so people don't feel marginalized or tokenized and have the ability to really bring their best selves to work. That's really important to me. It's a reflection of the world around us. It's bringing out the best in all of us. And so, for me, that's the environment I want to create in my own company. And it's also what I want to help companies be able to foster within their companies because I think a lot of companies really do want that. They just don't know how to go about it. They don't have actual tools to support a diverse team. You pay for things for the people you have, and then you hire more people like the people you have. We want to be a tool to help them expand that very organically and make it a lot easier to support a broader perspective of people. VICTORIA: I appreciate that. And it speaks to something you said earlier about 50% of the businesses are started by women. And so, if you're not investing in them, there's a huge market and huge potential and opportunity there that's just not -- AMY: The economic miss is in the trillions, is what's been estimated. Like, it's an absolute economic miss. I mean, you also have the statistics of what female-founded companies do. We tend to be more profitable. We tend to be more capital efficient. We tend to, you know, have better outcomes. It's just so the economics of it are there. It's just trying to get folks to understand where their biases are coming into play and funding things that may be a little outside their comfort zone. VICTORIA: Right. That's going to be a big project to undo all of that. So, each piece that works towards it to break it down, I think, is really important. And it seems like Compt is a great tool for companies to start working towards that, at least in the equity of their benefits, which is -- [laughs] AMY: Exactly. Because, I mean, if people can't use a perk, then it's inequitable compensation. And if you have inequitable compensation, you're already going down that path. You end up with wage gaps, and then you end up with promotion gaps. And all these things feed into each other. So, we're just trying to chip away at one piece of the problem. There's lots of places that this needs to be adjusted and changed over time. But we want to at least chip away at that one piece where this piece of compensation can be equitable and support everyone. WILL: Yeah, I love that. I was looking at your LinkedIn. And it looks like you've been almost, later this year, maybe six years of Compt. What was some of the early traction? Like, how was it in the early days for you? AMY: It was an interesting transition for me, going from CFO and COO over to the CEO role. That was easier in some ways than I thought it was going to be and harder in other ways. You know, on the easy side, I've already done fundraising. I understand how to write a business model, and look at financial plans, and make sure the concept is viable and all the things. But I also am not an engineer. I'm not a product designer. And so needed to make sure we immediately surrounded ourselves with the right talent and the right help to make sure that we could build the right product, pull the things out of my brain that are conceptual but definitely not product design. No one wants me touching product design. I've been barred from all codebases in this company. They don't want me touching anything, with good reason. And so, making sure that we have those right people to build and design the software in a way that functionally makes sense. VICTORIA: I think that is great that...I laughed when you said that you are barred from touching any of the code. [laughs] It's like, you're able to...I think a strong leader recognizes when other people have the expertise and makes space for them to do their best work. I also see that, at the same time, you've been a mentor with the MassChallenge group. And I'm curious if you have a most frequent piece of advice that you give to founders and people starting out building great products. AMY: The biggest piece of advice, I think, is to make sure you're taking care of yourself through this process. It's an exhausting process to build a company. And there's always way more that you should be doing every day than you can possibly get done. And if you just completely absorb yourself in it, you're going to end up burning out. So, making sure that you rest, that you still make time to exercise and to move, and that you spend time with family. All of those things, I think, are really, really important. That's been part of our core tenets. From day one, I said, "No more than 40 to 45 hours a week." It doesn't mean I'm not thinking about this business far more than 45 hours a week, but I'm not going to sit behind a computer that many hours in a week because I will burn out. And if I'm out and I'm reading something, or I'm, you know, going for a walk, I'm going to have moments of inspiration because I can actually have those creative thoughts firing when I'm not just putting out fires. And so, I think that's really, really important for founders to make sure they take that time and allow their brains to clear a little bit so that they can build more efficiently, build faster, and have really good critical reasoning skills. WILL: I love that you not only have the product to, you know, help taking time off, but you also are preaching it per se, like, take time off. Don't work more than 40-45 hours. Like, take care of yourself. So, I love that advice that you're giving is right in the message with your product. So, I love it. AMY: Thank you. I do hammer home with this team. What we build is obviously very, very important to me, but how we build this company is equally important. We spend just as much time thinking about how we're building and designing this company internally as we do about our product because they need to be a virtuous cycle between the two, quite frankly. And so, if they aren't aligned, we're going to fail. WILL: Definitely. Wow. Awesome. What does success look like for you and Compt in the next, you know, six months to a year? AMY: For us, it's really about reaching as many people as possible. So, how do we have an impact on as many lives as possible and help people be able to access this piece of their compensation? What is interesting right now is we're in a really interesting moment. The tech industry is going through...shall we call it an awakening? Where money is tighter. There's been some layoffs. You know, it's just a very different world in tech right now. And everybody's in a little bit of a holding pattern to figure out, okay, what's next? What we're seeing across our portfolio of companies is that there's a lot of industries that are, for the first time, really thinking about how do we retain folks? How do we think about hiring in a new way? So, industries like construction and manufacturing. Industries that never had employee kind of lifestyle benefits or perks they're taking a look at that because unemployment is so, so low. And so, for the first time ever, we have the ability to have an impact on groups that never had access to professional development, to wellness, to things like that. And that's really exciting because you can have such a huge, impactful moment where people have just been without for so long. And so, that's pretty exciting for us. VICTORIA: You're touching upon a topic that I've thought about before, where in the tech industry, we're used to having a lot of benefits and perks and that not every industry is the same way. So, I'm curious; you mentioned construction and some other groups that are looking to adopt more of these benefits because unemployment is so low. I'm curious, like, if there are any patterns or things that you see, like, specific industries that are more interested than others, or what's going on there? AMY: Our portfolio of tech companies are only about...they're less than 40% of our customers, actually. So, a relatively low percentage of our customers come from the tech industry. What we find is that healthcare systems this is really important. As you're thinking about how you're going to retain nursing staff, it is incredibly difficult. And so, we see a lot of movement in the healthcare space. We see a lot of movement, again, across manufacturing and construction, you know, financial services. Pretty much anybody who is struggling to hire and is worried about retaining is trying to figure out what's my strategy? How do I do this in the least expensive way possible but reach everyone? Because those employee engagement metrics are so consistently important to look at. And most platforms and things that you could be doing out there are going to give you a 2% to 3% utilization. So, it's very, very low. You know, wellness is by far the most common use case we see companies putting in place. It's good for employees. It's good for the employer. That's by far the most important or the most common. But we also see things like family, and just more of a whole well-being kind of concept as well, so beyond wellness, so allowing for that broader reach. We're also seeing industries where people are starting to age out. So, we've got five generations at work right now. There's industries where folks have historically stayed forever. You know, you've got the people who have been there 20-30 years. Well, those same industries are now sitting there going, all right, how do I get the next two generations to come in here? Because it's such an old-guard and old approach. We've got to change things up. And so, we're seeing a pretty big cultural shift happen within a lot of these more nascent industries. WILL: Yeah. I can definitely see how that would be tough going from, you know, you said five generations are currently in the workforce? AMY: Yep. WILL: I didn't even think about that. Wow. AMY: Yeah, you got a lot of different parts of the life cycle. You know, think about professional development. Professional development for a 22-year-old is very different from professional development for a 65-year-old. But both are in the workplace, and both want to keep learning. It's just what your needs are and what you need to learn. And how you want to learn is going to be very, very different. WILL: Wow. So true. I love how you're talking about your leadership and just the way you lead. I can just hear it in what you're saying. What are some of your core values that drive you every day? AMY: One of the big ones, and it probably goes back to, you know, I'm sure, birth placement, whatever. I'm an oldest child, all the things that come with being an oldest child. But fairness is a really big one for me. And so, it's thinking about how we apply that as a company, so equitable compensation falls under that. Making sure that we've got a team that is balanced and diverse is really important to me. You know, thinking, you know, our core values are balance and belonging. That runs through absolutely everything that we do and is core and central to it. Because, again, how we build this company is just as important to me as what we're building. And so, making sure that we hold true to those values is critical because we have amazing people, and they need to feel supported as well. VICTORIA: Well, that really comes through in everything that you say and that we've talked about so far today, and I really appreciate that. And I'm curious if you could go back in time to when you first started Compt and tell yourself any piece of advice or information; what would you say? AMY: That piece of advice has changed over time; I will tell you that. The one that is most recent for me is really because we're an HR tech platform, and we service, you know, an entire organization, is really thinking about how you support different industries at different moments in time, the concept of product-market fit. When you're that type of a platform, which there aren't many, there's not many platforms that sit across an entire organization, but compensation is one of them. You need to be thinking about which industries are struggling to hire, which are struggling to retain at this moment in time. And so, I don't think there's one place, like, hey, we have product-market fit, now we can scale. I think that's a misnomer for our part of the HR tech space. And so, it's constant experimentation on go-to-market strategy and constant kind of adjustment as markets ebb and flow over time. WILL: What is some of your biggest hurdles right now or even in the future that you can see coming? AMY: If I had a crystal ball, life would definitely be easier. I'd love to know when this economic cycle is going to shift and, you know when things get a little bit easier for companies. You know, HR leaders and finance leaders are not having the most fun at this moment in time. They're being tasked with making everybody happy but on very small budgets, and so they're really challenged with that. And they're really burnt out, and they're exhausted. So, I'm looking forward to a shift so when people can get back to feeling a little bit physically better. But also, it just helps navigate a market and be better able to support your employees. VICTORIA: I've been thinking about that question recently, what I would tell my past self, and I think it's mostly, like, food related. [laughter] AMY: Ooh, interesting. VICTORIA: Use better vinegars, like, invest in fancier olive oil. [laughs] AMY: So, my new luxury pro-tip is you buy a $7 bunch of eucalyptus at the grocery store, and you tie it above your shower head. I'm not kidding; you will feel like you're at a spa. It costs $7. I learned it because I was at some fancy resort. One of my investors, you know, paid for us to go to a conference that I was not paying for. And I was like, that is genius. You suddenly feel like you are in someplace fancy, and it was seven bucks. It's amazing. WILL: Yes. VICTORIA: That sounds incredible. I'm going to do that. WILL: Same. [laughter] VICTORIA: [inaudible 34:35] buy some. No, it's so good. Do you have any questions for us, Amy? AMY: Yeah. I mean, what trends are you seeing in the market right now? Like, what types of companies are being developed? Where do you see growth happening in the market? VICTORIA: That's probably a better question for me. As a managing director, I spend more time networking and going to events. And it's interesting being in San Diego. There's a big biotech startup here. So, I went to an EvoNexus Demo Day and saw the things that people were using. And there seemed to be a trend of using AI and machine learning to create better health outcomes, whether that's for predictors for which people will respond better to anti-cancer drugs, or, you know, how do we monitor the release of drugs for someone's system who's, you know, going through methadone in therapy. So, it's really interesting. I think that you know, you mentioned that there's not the same amount of money in the tech market, but I think there is still a lot of work being done to solve real problems that people have. So yeah, I'm really curious to see those types of projects and which ones are going to be successful, and how much the AI trend will really fade out. Like, clearly, in some use cases, you can see how beneficial it could be. And other times, it seems like it's kind of just like slapped on there for -- AMY: Agreed. VICTORIA: Marketing purposes, so... AMY: That's really just a database query. It's not AI. [laughs] VICTORIA: Right. [laughs] It's interesting because, you know, I just had lunch with a bunch of other CTOs in San Diego, and we were talking about AI, and some of the inherent risks of it, and the damage it can cause. And I always like to bring it back to, like, there are some people who are already harmed by these trends. And we have to work around that. Like, there is some, you know, greater supposed existential threat with AI that I think is rather unlikely. But if we think about that too much and not focus on the current harm that's being done, then that's, you know, more dangerous than the other one. AMY: Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, there's definitely, I mean, even just with facial recognition and how that's applied and what that's used for. I mean, any software that is built with people has bias. And so, whatever biases they're bringing into it is the bias that's going to exist in the software. And so, there's...we already are starting from, you know, going back to our earlier conversation, if companies are not diverse and not building for really diverse perspectives, they're inherently going to build bias software, whether or not, I mean, I don't think that's anybody's intention. But that's what's going to happen because you just didn't think about things you didn't know. VICTORIA: Right. And, of course, I'm here in Southern California. There's the strikes for the actors and writers' strike happening a few hours north of us. And they were actually, you know, for some actors, signing away their rights to their likeness. AMY: Wow. VICTORIA: And then they could make an AI image and -- AMY: Wow. You could just create an entire movie with somebody's image and dub in a voice, and suddenly you don't need actors. VICTORIA: Right. And it's, of course, more often non-White actors and models who are being replaced. And so, I think that's a very interesting trend that people may not have thought about yet. AMY: Fascinating. VICTORIA: So yeah, I mean, having people on your leadership team who are thinking about these [laughs] different types of issues, like, yeah, I think it's really important. And then also, from, like, a data privacy perspective, all the laws that are coming out and that have come out. And I think that some founders and CTOs are really struggling with how to comply and protect everyone's data that way. AMY: No. It's something we think about a lot because we have the potential to have access to a lot of employee data. We take a very minimalist approach stated, not a big data play. That's not what we're here for. That's not what we're trying to do, this mountain of data on people, and then we'll figure out how to monetize it. We want to build something a little bit different. And so using only data that needs to be used so that we can truly support people with what our actual goal and aim is, rather than having that be a secondary cause. VICTORIA: Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about that actually because you have SOC 2 and GDPR compliance. And it's a topic that I think a lot of founders know that security is important, but it can be a significant investment. So, I'm curious your trade-offs and your timing for when you went for those compliance frameworks. AMY: We went early for it. I mean, so our platform, I mean, we're integrated with payroll platforms. We're touching employee data. So, we went for it early because we knew that it was going to be important, and it's a lot easier to do it before you make a mess than it is after the fact. I've done SOC 2 compliance in two prior companies. It's not fun. It is not my most fun thing that I've ever done. Fortunately, there are geniuses out there who built platforms to make this very, very easy now. We use a platform called Vanta that is absolutely incredible, made it super easy to get SOC 2 compliant, go through our audits, do all the things, so that, at least, is a lot easier. But it was something that we needed the funding to invest in. It's not inexpensive. But we knew that it was going to be critical because people need to feel that their data is secure and that you know what you're doing, and that you're not just kind of flying by the seat of your pants. There's a lot of tech companies that operate on, we'll figure out the tax, or we'll figure out the law. We'll figure out the compliance later. And that's been a stated part of their mission. That's just not the way I'm going to operate. And that doesn't work very well when you're dealing with HR, quite frankly, or finance because we have to comply with laws. So, getting ahead of that early was part of our strategy. VICTORIA: That makes sense. Your finance background making it clear what the legal implications are. [laughs] AMY: Exactly. Like, I'm not messing around with the IRS. Nobody wants to get audited by the IRS. It's not fun. Let's just keep things tax compliant. Chances are you're not going to get audited by the IRS. But if you are a tech company, if you do want to go public, if you do want to be acquired likely from a public company, you have to have these things in order because otherwise, it's coming off your purchase price or your stock price because you've got disclosures you've got to put out there, so little hidden, nasty gotchas. And it can be a six-year lookback period. So, you're like, oh, I'll worry about it later. Six years is a long time. And if you start messing around with that, it gets very, very expensive to clean up. So, just do it right from the beginning. You know, the same way you're doing payroll correctly now, invest a little bit, and it makes it a lot easier. VICTORIA: Yeah, I agree. And I think the tooling that's out there makes it a little bit easier; at least then, you know you have the confidence that your data is protected. Especially if you're a non-technical founder, I can imagine that makes you feel better that things are the way they should be. AMY: Exactly. Somebody has looked at this thing. Somebody is making sure that it's working the way it's supposed to. You know, that definitely helps when you're a non-technical founder, or just not a tax expert, or a legal expert, you know, around these things. It's not even the technical founders that have to worry about it. Data comes in all kinds of forms. VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. AMY: This has been a fantastic conversation. I've really enjoyed it. VICTORIA: Well, thank you. WILL: Same. VICTORIA: I've enjoyed it as well. I really appreciate you taking the time. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Amy Spurling.

Welcome back to our weekend Cabral HouseCall shows! This is where we answer our community's wellness, weight loss, and anti-aging questions to help people get back on track! Check out today's questions:    Amy: Thank you for all you do! My son has extreme allergy induced asthma. I've ordered the Allergy Protocol and Sinus Support however he cannot swallow pills. I tried mixing in some apple juice but it tasted really terrible and he couldn't drink it (he never complains about medicine/supplements). How can I get these supplements in him? Thanks   Anonymous: Hi Dr, I have candida and bacterial imbalance and I am purchasing the CBO protocol. I know that I can get better but the biggest hurdle in my health journey is that I can't seem to stick to cutting out gluten and dairy permanently. I have had a sort of food addiction since I was a kid and cutting out sugar in my teens helped a bit. Gluten and dairy(lectins in general) give me extreme fatigue, depression, inflammation but even knowing this I cant seem to cut them out permanently. I know it is just a habit that I gotta break but nothing I have tried the past 20 years has worked. I feel so weak.I keep going through cycles of cutting it out for like 6 months and then I see a cookie while shopping and I am back to the same patterns. I need to get healthier I need more control. What can I do? Could you also please explain to me the link between gut bugs and hair loss. Also, how does one avoid getting candida or sibo again when eating soluble fiber, healthy sugar like fruits etc Thanks!   Anonymous: Hi! I was wondering: why are bananas on the sensitive gut guide. Would they not cause an issue for someone with candida? A bit confused about what foods are okay while treating candida. Lots of contadictory info online lol. Thanks in advance!   Anonymous: Hi Dr. Cabral I wanted to know if it was possible to trigger histamine intolerance/MCAS when taking antimicrobials and probiotics at the same time? I've tested positive for gut dysbiosis, low secretory IGA, high zonulin and 6 different types of mycotoxins. Low b-vitamins and low minerals. No candida, no h pylori and no heavy metals toxicity.   Thank you for tuning into today's Cabral HouseCall and be sure to check back tomorrow where we answer more of our community's questions!      - - - Show Notes and Resources: StephenCabral.com/2570 - - - Get a FREE Copy of Dr. Cabral's Book: The Rain Barrel Effect - - - Join the Community & Get Your Questions Answered: CabralSupportGroup.com - - - Dr. Cabral's Most Popular At-Home Lab Tests: > Complete Minerals & Metals Test (Test for mineral imbalances & heavy metal toxicity) - - - > Complete Candida, Metabolic & Vitamins Test (Test for 75 biomarkers including yeast & bacterial gut overgrowth, as well as vitamin levels) - - - > Complete Stress, Mood & Metabolism Test (Discover your complete thyroid, adrenal, hormone, vitamin D & insulin levels) - - - > Complete Food Sensitivity Test (Find out your hidden food sensitivities) - - - > Complete Omega-3 & Inflammation Test (Discover your levels of inflammation related to your omega-6 to omega-3 levels) - - - Get Your Question Answered On An Upcoming HouseCall: StephenCabral.com/askcabral - - - Would You Take 30 Seconds To Rate & Review The Cabral Concept? The best way to help me spread our mission of true natural health is to pass on the good word, and I read and appreciate every review!  

We asked parents about their struggles, and what question they wanted to ask us about parenting. Amy Weber and I are planning our next coaching group for parents of neurodivergent kids, and we want your input! The questionnaire will only take a minute or two, and we will reach out personally to answer your questions! Hear my conversation with Amy Weber, LCSW, as we answer some fantastic questions from parents! Kate: We are answering questions for the wonderful people who filled out our parent survey, and if you fill out the parent survey this week, we will come back and answer your questions too! Amy: Thank you to the people who did fill out the survey. Kate: Yeah. So we're just gonna go in the order that we received them. It's totally anonymous. If this applies to you, good. It might. A lot of these apply to me. If you haven't submitted a question yet, the survey is here we'd love to hear from you: https://forms.gle/eye1Ux6CVnSZqgTAA Hi, I'm Kate! I'm a yoga teacher and mindful parenting coach who helps highly sensitive parents self-regulate so they can enjoy parenting their atypical kids. Connect with me at https://www.healthyhappyyoga.com/ or https://www.instagram.com/healthyhappyyoga/, --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/oceansmama/message

In this episode of The Antidote, Amy and Grace connect with comedian, writer, and actor Dulcé Sloan. In a live conversation from this year's New York Comedy Festival, Dulcé shares her favorite murder mysteries, the joys of crafting, and savoring hobbies. Amy and Grace share their bummer news of the week –  owl attacks are becoming more common, and how Stacy Abrams' loss felt like a gut punch for Black women. They also share their antidotes: a new Netflix show and waffles.  Do you have a favorite antidote, or need an antidote suggestion? A question for Grace and Amy, or something you loved that Amy, Grace or one of their guests has said on the podcast? Share a message with The Antidote team: https://mpr.tfaforms.net/111 or tag us on Instagram with the hashtag #ThatsMyAntidote, or leave us a message on our hotline at 833-684-3683. FULL TRANSCRIPT Amy The world is a dumpster fire. I'm Amy. Grace And I'm Grace. Amy And we want to f---in help. Grace We're comedy writers in Los Angeles, and we like to take the bad sh-- we hear and work through it together. Amy We talk about cultural moments we love. Grace Talk to people we adore. Amy Crushes we have. Grace And self-care we stan. Amy During these trying times, we all need a show that focuses on joy. Grace This is The Antidote. Live. Amy That's right. That's motherf---ing right. Friends, we are very happy to share with you all our first ever live show from Brooklyn, New York, which was a part of the New York Comedy Festival on November 12. Grace We're joined by our friends Dulce Sloan and Jordan Carlos. Amy Not only were they the funniest and most awesome guests ever, that live energy really just gotten to all of us. It was so much fun. Grace This is part one of the antidote live with Dulce Sloan motherf---ing Brooklyn. Thank you all for coming to our first live show. We're so excited to be here with you. Amy We're super excited. And, you know, like for you guys who know the podcast, we always talk about our antidotes and our bummer news. But I do want to say that this live show is coming at the end of a month of New York with my best friend, Grace. Yeah. And there have been some real highlights to be in New York with you. Like our fancy dinner, we had to scarf it up. Grace Literally bought, like everything on the menu and they're like, Can you eat all this f---ing food? I was like, Yeah. Amy Yeah, yeah, watch me, watch it. Also also, we saw Top Dog Underdog on Broadway. Grace We did. And let me tell you about. Yeah, yeah. Amy Yeah, Ya-Ya can get it. He can get it. I don't know what the play was about because in my head the play was about his thighs. I don't know what I saw. Grace But it was really good. Like I would recommend everybody see it. First of all, like Corey Hawkins, such a great actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A great actor as well. Didn't really focus on his acting because like I said. Amy Once again, the thighs. Once again the thighs. And we also did other fancy things, like we had a little nightcap at Dumbo house one night. I saw how the other half lives, the other half being my friend Grace. Um, it was really, really fancy. But I'm really glad we had these moments together because it's a distraction from how sh---y the world is. Yeah. Yeah. So starting now, top with our bummer news of the week. Grace The bummer news. Amy So guys, first up is an owl attack. I don't know if anyone has seen this news, but apparently owls have been attacking people. Okay, so so this is a live show and you guys are seeing the visuals. I love that you're enjoying the visuals to our guests who are just tuning in through their ear holes. It's an owl. Attacking a man on screen literally keeps happening. Apparently in Washington, there is a woman who's been attacked by the same owl twice. Grace Twice. Amy Her name is Kristen Matheson, and she was walking in the woods near her house when she got attacked. And she said, quote, It felt like getting punched in the back of the head by someone wearing rings. And apparently people are saying barred owls are aggressive owls and they're highly territorial. So maybe she thought they were her woods, but they were the owls. Grace No. Well, first of all, we still got to worry about COVID, right? We got to worry about Nazis. Right. And we got to worry about owl attacks. First of all, I want to know what she did to that owl, because that's what attacked twice. Like, did you steal that owls, man? Did you like did you, like, talk about his mom and dad? She caught that beak twice. Amy The thing to me is like nature is clearly trying to take us out, and it just keeps happening. Like, I'm literally like Mortal Kombat. It's like, finish him because the owl is trying. And I really just think it's time for us to go. Grace Yeah. Amy Nature wants us out of here. Grace It might be a wrap for the human race. 2022 is wildin. Owl attacks? Amy Yeah, but that's not the only bit of bummer news or something else. So you guys have been following the midterm elections, obviously. Stacey Abrams lost. Yeah, Georgia. Exactly. I heard a note backstage by someone you're going to meet later, one of our guests. And honestly, for Black women, this felt like a punch in the gut. It felt like an owl attack on our hearts. Grace Our attack on our democracy. Amy Exactly. Yeah. Abrams lost her rematch bid in Georgia's gubernatorial race on Tuesday night, and some black women and activists have called it a devastating blow. In an opinion piece with The Daily Beast, contributing editor Goldie Taylor said that Abrams didn't look like a governor. Which makes me wonder what the f--- a governor look like. This woman, she had a blazer. She had a cold chain on. Grace She got a gap in her tooth. She got a fabulous lip. What a bad bitch. That's all I'm thinking about. Amy So to me, I got to be honest, I decide to because I hate to lose. But you know what? I hate more being insulted every day. Every day she's in the spotlight. She gets insulted. And I'm tired of that, honestly. Stacey, so good for the race. Grace I mean, honestly, she saved democracy. I mean, like, I remember, like, in Georgia f---ing blue. I know she turned Georgia blue. She has done so much to, like, register voters. And the only reason that these new school wild ass Republicans are not, like, fully in control of everything is due to this queen. And what does she get lost to? Brian Kemp. Y'all want Brian Kemp again? Again? Yeah. That was so f---ing sad outside that day. Amy Yeah. So how do you feel after discussing this bummer news, Grace? Grace Not good. I mean, I'm looking for owls. I don't want to catch nobody's speak. And Stacey Abrams is not the governor of Georgia. What she should be. Amy Yeah, I agree. I agree. Grace So you know what? Let's get into this antidote. Amy Yes, it is. So for people who are new to this but about to be true to this, this is the segment where we tell you about the culture we consumed and things we did this week that made us feel better about the bummer news. So, Grace, I'd love to know what was your antidote? Grace Okay, well, it was it was a rough week this week because like there I was stressed about these midterm elections because everybody's like, yeah, it's going to be a red wave. And I'm like, okay, are they going to bring slavery back? I don't know. Like, I keep getting worse, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? I was so, like, scared this week, so I wanted to, like, flush my brain out with something good. So I saw on Netflix there was a show called From Scratch. Oh, my God. Tell them about them that scratched my itch. It's basically starring Zoe Saldana, created by Attica Locke and Tenby Locke, who are sisters. Isn't that f---ing cute? They, like, created a show together based on Tempe's book of the same name about a true story about her, like falling in love with this chef in Italy and making spaghetti king. I know. Amy And you better twirl that linguini. Grace He made her spaghetti. He did make her some other making spaghetti and he did other things, too. So it was so delightful because, like, it was just so sweet. It was like, beautifully written. It was well-shot. It just gave me what I needed. I love comedy. Obviously, the only thing that I love more than comedy is people falling up. I love. So it was really just a delight to see. And I mean, there was so much yummy food. I went to Italy for the first time with this bitch last year. Amy Yes, she did. Yeah, that's right. We're gross. We travel together and we do everything together. Grace And I don't know, it just really was beautiful escapism. And I know that there's cancer later, but. Amy Spoil. I haven't seen it. What! Grace I didn't get to the cancer part yet. So I got to the only the happy. Amy Who dies? Who? Grace Maybe nobody dies. I don't know. Amy Who dies? Not the Black woman. Grace No, no, no. So, I don't know. It was just really fine. I was drinking some wine. I cried. Happy tears. Amy Very Italian of you. Grace Yeah, very like. So that was definitely my antidote this week of just crying, watching. So leave it. Still to fall in love with an Italian man.  Amy That was lovely. Loved it. Yeah. Italians love Black women. That's like a thing. Oh, they made a show about it. It's called, like, from Italy with Love. And it's just like women being like, I'm looking for my Italian king and a lot of Italian men being like, I love your lips are a little problematic get and where you fit in. Okay I will imports. Grace Well, no, but I didn't I didn't get any Italian love when I was there. Amy So we got to go back. We got to go back. We got to go back. Grace Got to go back and say from scratch, you heard of it? I want it. So what was your antidote this week? Amy So last night I had like a real New York night and, you know, I came here for work, so and I'm very if you all know me, I'm a double Virgo. Like, I'm all about my work. I'm like, I want to prep. I want to do a good job. I want to be working. And so I hadn't gone out, out like we've had our fancy dinner or whatever the f---, but we haven't like gone out in New York. And last night I went out with a friend and that's not even the antidote part. And she's here in the audience and she's going to hear the story. And she didn't know that this happened, but that's her. Give me I'm about to tell you a story. Basically, we went out for a very early like grandma dinner, like we were trying to be responsible, have dinner at like 5 p.m. and then it rolled into another spot and then we're doing an orange wine and then we stumble. I got this. I don't know where it entered my head. I think we're sitting in front of a grocery store and there's an ad for waffles in the window. And I was like, I want a waffle. And then my friend looked up a waffle spot, pies and dice, and we walked over to pies and pies and they were out of waffles. And I was there in my class. Grace I mean, you had one job, pies and thighs. Amy My slightly drunk splendor. Like you have pies and you have thighs, but you don't have waffles. And they were like, It'll be about 20 minutes. Like we're making them. And I was like, Well, I can't wait. So my friend. And I said, goodnight. I waved goodnight. I got in my little car and I drove home. And guess how long that car ride was? Well, it was about 20 minutes. So I got home and I just thought to myself, Well, what if I went on DoorDash and looked to see if the waffles were ready? Jimmy The waffles were ready. Apart from pies and thighs, and it wasn't enough to complete an order. So I also ordered a single catfish in a single biscuit and a full. And then I had a meal. And so they delivered it. And I ate this waffle and fell asleep on my couch eating this waffle.  Grace Oh, my God. Amy And that was my antidote. Sometimes you need to doordash happiness to your. That was my answer. So stay tuned. You'll hear more from our live show right after this break. Our guest is a hilarious and dope ass comedian, writer and actor. She's a correspondent on Comedy Central's The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Rolling Stone recently hailed her as one of the top ten comedians you need to know, declaring, quote, She speaks and they simply fall in line behind you.   Grace Yes, Queen.   Amy Please welcome one of the stars of the Fox series, The Great North and costar of my co-host movie Jodi out next year. Dulce f---ing Sloan. It's nighttime here in Brooklyn, and we're here to learn about your antidote.   Dulce Sloan So I have a craft room in my house. And, uh, recently I was like, because I enjoy the crafting and I was looking on the TikTok and part of it I saw like this thing called a knitting machine.   Grace And knitting is like, it does it for you.   Dulce Sloan Yeah. Because like I had I not a knit, I know how to crochet, but I also can't dedicate six years of my life to making one scarf. No, no.   Amy You're too busy for that. Like you said, you won't see your son truly.   Dulce Sloan So I don't know who lives a lifestyle where they can make a scarf in less than four years. But I am not that person. So basically it's this machine, just like 48 hooks on it and it's just a knob that you turn. It was like some 40, 60 bucks. I won pansies and so I made like a knitted cap in like 20 minutes was.   Amy That should take 20 weeks, right?   Dulce Sloan Yeah, it does. Like a hundred rows of knitting. That's so cool. And like 20 minutes.   Amy What were the colors?   Dulce Sloan When I started with. Because I bought like, this really pretty like a teal kind of yarn, the.   Grace Ahhh.   Dulce Sloan Go to. And then I just make like this really long, long, long scarf. But I bought like a lot of these little, like, poofs. So I was like, F---, I got a little clothes that you put on.   Amy Pom pom pom.   Dulce Sloan Pom pom thing, but like the little fauz fur ones.   Amy Yeah.   Dulce Sloan I got those. And then one of my friends was like, ah, like, I'll make you a hat. She's like, I got to have it. The silk glasses, though.   Grace So you worried about the pearls?   Dulce Sloan I hear you. I hear you. So I got some of those really, like, long, like, bonnets. Yeah. So now I have to figure out how to sew, though. I mean, I could, so. So I got to just figure out how with the yarn and everything, I'm going to get like this. So I guess apparently when I start making satin lined knit can.   Amy Wait a second. No, that's really dope.   Dulce Sloan Because of life. But yeah, there is that then a very silly thing. So I enjoy murder mysteries. Okay, but I don't like the true crime ones.   Amy You like the fake one?   Dulce Sloan I don't want to know that somebody died. I want to know somebody like that. Like, oh, this person's dead. And somebody went.   Amy Cut, and then they went and got lunch.   Grace And they were not dead. They just had.   Dulce Sloan They were not dead. But I don't like the really intense emotional.   Amy I can't do that.   Dulce Sloan I can't do it too much. So I was trying to find a New Yorker, like I started watching Murder. She wrote Homicide was f---ed up. Poppycock, Peacock. I won't watch a murder she wrote for the past year, right?   Amy Yeah.   Dulce Sloan And Ms. lansbury. Yes. R.I.P. Met the Lord. Yes, she did. All of a sudden, now all a murder. She rose behind a paywall. No.   Amy Peacock what.   Dulce Sloan I'm in like the seventh show is like 15 f---ing seasons. So it was really for like 1987 to like 22. I had no f---ing clue. Right. It was on for most of my life.   Amy Yes. And so I watched it as a child.   Dulce Sloan Right. And saw that because I remember when I was like, I want another show to watch because I watched like the little like British shows or whatever. But I'm going to British shows get too intense. So I'm just like, first of all, turn the volume up on this f---ing show.   Amy First of all.   Dulce Sloan Am I  the only person watch the British shows like because they're very quiet. They're very.   Grace Very quickly and very quietly.   Dulce Sloan It's very quiet, very darkly lit. I'm like, I even know the race of this person who's speaking. There's all this bitches blond. With all the information that I.   Grace Spicy white, you don't know.   Dulce Sloan Right, listen. And also, can we retire spicy white? Because I guess because spicy whites are just white people trying to disassociate themselves from the bad white. Oh, I.   Amy Think about it that way. For me, it's any time I see someone who's got a little olive tone.   Dulce Sloan Naw, it's a set up. The Italians also colonized? Yeah.   Amy No, that's true. That's true.   Dulce Sloan You ever heard of Ethiopia? Yeah. The Mali guy. Yeah. Yeah, the Portuguese. Brazil.   Amy Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a Jewish friend from Ethiopia and everyone was like, How are you Jewish? And she was like, Bitch, we're the originals. Colonialism.   Dulce Sloan It was like, That's how we got Ethiopian Jews. It's like the Ethiopian Jews was like the 12 tribes, man. They were right there. They were like, Oh, Israel's nice. But what, what is happening in Africa, from what I hear from Ethiopian Jews are like not we're from the first like the first 12 dudes. Yeah, that was us murder mysteries.   Amy Then what are the ones?   Dulce Sloan So I found a very silly one. So I have now added the Hallmark mystery movies. Zero. So my.   Amy Wait. So those are religious?   Grace So you have to like pay for that. It's like a hallmark plus.   Dulce Sloan It's like six bucks. I have six dolalrs.   Amy There are so many pluses.   Dulce Sloan So you have to say to yourself, Should I add this show? You're like, bitch, you have six times. You will always have $6 if you spend more than that at a sandwich at your local corner store. Yeah, you have $6, bitch. And so they have all these they have all these murder mysteries, but it's the same f---ing formula, cause it's so it's a woman. They're usually white. I found one with Holly Robinson Peete on it, and I was.   Amy Like, Well.   Dulce Sloan You know, where she is? So they all have, like, a professional job.   Grace And they're jogging.   Dulce Sloan No, no, no. These bitches don't jog. They're running businesses. They don't have time to jog. And so it's the same formula I, I've watched like the garage sale mysteries where. Lori Loughlin. Yeah.   Amy Lori Loughlin is bad.   Dulce Sloan Oh, her and her friend. We hate her. Mark, I have no qualms about this woman. Wasn't my kid, so no qualms. This lady couldn't give a sh--. Her and her friend owned an antique store. It's called the Garage Sale Mysteries because you would go to garage sales and get like, sh--, the governor antique store. And then she would find something like, Oh my God, I've got this antique camera. There's a picture of a murder on here. That murder just happened. I got to solve it. So it's.   Grace A picture of a murder.   Dulce Sloan So now her husband. And then the first of all, the kids keep changing the actor. So the actor, the player. Yeah. So they.   Dulce Sloan The actors that play the kids keep getting progressively worse or if I'm watching the show out. Of order or all those like they're. All an hour and a half long. So it's basically like a f---ing movie. So to like this isn't it's either I can binge watch. I would in my mind since it's a TV show, it's not like a movie. So like watching a movie seems like a dedication to time, but like watching an hour long TV show. I just. David So I watch those shows, those like garage sale, mystery murder. She Bakes is based on the bakery.   Grace Did the murder happen at the office?   Dulce Sloan No but a rival baker did die in the kitchen after she helped this guy and then there's murder. She bakes. And then there's the chick that has, like, a flower shop whose work I think is Brooke Shields. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's like Alison Sweeney. Brooke Shields. Holly Robinson Peete is like a cook on. She has like a cooking segment on a TV show, but they also in a restaurant, there's that sh--. And then I'm like, Right, there's that. And then Korean dramas is the other thing that I watch.   Amy Wait, but I love this. First of all, I love TV that works on a formula like I'm Nigerian and Nigerian films. Like for the longest time before, like Nollywood really blew up. They all had a formula. It was always like a man gets possessed by a witch and then he cheats on his wife. And the while we used to.   Dulce Sloan Like when we moved back to Atlana, we lived with Nigerians. And I remember like I don't speak Yoruba, so I know what the f--- is going on, but there was, but like, I know like, oh we don't like this later.   Amy Yeah.   Dulce Sloan That I couldn't figure out. Also I don't know how they were all in a village and it was an all white and it it's f---ing spotless. I was watching this woman. She walked out. I'm seeing a woman walk out of a hut. And they're in the village because they're going to visit family or some sh--. Yeah, everyone's in white. It's immaculate.   Amy It doesn't make any sense. The wind is blowing. There's a lot of dust.   Dulce Sloan There are no floors. And these bitches are in the cleaners. I'm like, God bless.   Amy Nollywood mansion.   Dulce Sloan Bring your skills over to the great USA. Very because I have a washing machine and my weight ain't never been that sharp that you can feel the crystal air. But yeah, that in Korean dramas and I've been watching Korean dramas since I was in high school.   Amy I'm obsessed with both of these antidotes. The fact that you are first of all, you have a craft room and you're crafting and you're sewing and you're making things. I'd love to know when the Etsy store opened, like when.   Dulce Sloan Listen. I used to have a jewelry business.   Amy Yeah.   Grace And what did you make?   Dulce Sloan So, like feather earrings. I was the first one to start.   Amy Okay. Wait. That was the thing, that was a moment.   Dulce Sloan That was a big moment. I started making my mom and my mother was like, because my mother always had businesses. She has a clothing business named after me. All these other sh-- I've been like. And my first business when I was like, nine. I'm very tired because I've been working for 30 years. Yeah. And so and I'm not 40. It's not fair, but this man's not having to sweep me away. We got to figure this sh-- out. And I mean, you hope, but hope's hard. So I would make all this handmade Legos, like beadwork and stuff like that, and I would go to different things around Atlanta and sell jewelry. And then I used to do crafts at kid's birthday parties, so like scavenger hunts, all kinds of sh--, and then at the same and then still having a day job, still doing stand up. So acting all of that sh--. Yeah. So I'm just, I'm tired.   Amy You're like, I'm not going to do the jewelry store. It's for you now.   Dulce Sloan I thought, because, like, I had a bunch of jewelry that I had made cause I started getting into U.V. resin, and I was like, I could sell this as merch. Then I'm like.   Amy Wow. That's that's the best part about a real answer is that it's just for you.   Dulce Sloan It's just, yeah, like, I have this whole crowd from, like, a, like, the silliest thing. Like I made like these like every year for my manager's birthday, I'll do like, a vintage of him. So, like, the year, like two years ago, I'm like a doll out of him. Yeah.   Amy Oh, no, that. Wait, what? Voodoo. What?   Dulce Sloan Now I'm saying they invited the Holy Ghost. Don't play me.   Amy So he didn't, like, clip his hair and then make it out of him? No. Gotcha. Okay. Sorry, sorry. I heard.   Dulce Sloan I hear you. It's a little because I did one for my nephew too, so that could be like a little felt doll out of him. I used to work at like my last day job was a stucco supply company, like construction materials. So like, I made like a picture of him out of, like, different colors of stucco just from the guys in the back.   Amy Yeah. Um.   Dulce Sloan But it's funny because he's Jewish and he had a little Jewish afro, so the dude in the back was his new black clothes are like, so you've been a, you have a black man, a picture itself. I was like, That's not what's happening. I see why you would think that I actually for page stucco, you need to calm down. Um, so then like from I've done like parlor beard, uh, vinyl all kind of like every year I just come up with like a different is a stupid thing that I started myself. I did like a big cross-stitch thing. I have one time oh wow that it faces. So it's just like it's a face.   Amy I know but that's our too is like not doing the face is is of that is a choice a choice like choice.   Dulce Sloan But like so I have a cricket as well. So this year I was able to like I took a picture of him and then did the image of it.   Amy Do you mean where an actual cricket or a cricket phone or what do you mean the cricket either?   Dulce Sloan Okay.   Grace We are not crafty bitches, you know. We don't know the terminology.   Dulce Sloan I hear you because I said cricket. Somebody was like, Yeah, like am I am I right off the bat? So no, there's no magical creature at my house.   Amy You don't have a little Jiminy.   Grace I was like, Jimmy.   Amy All right tell me what it is. Go.   Dulce Sloan It is. It's a so basically it's like a they call it a is a cricket like crap machine. So basically there's a computer program that you can use to create like different images and then you can either cut them out or draw them on whatever material you want to see, whether it's because, like, I'm bad at drawing.   Amy Yeah, yeah, me too.   Dulce Sloan So, like this year when I did, like, the thing of him, it was like, I guess it's giving like Andy Warhol because I had, like, this marble paper that was like four different colors, this marble paper. And then I had like I was trying to, it was Shrinky Dinks, but it didn't work so that like four suckers are hard to use. It's an ad for different colors of the construction paper. That was the main color out of the marble paper. And then so it drew the image of him on the paper and I cut it out and I just colored it. And so it's like a a square thing of him and like in like, primary colors.   Amy Thank you. You are a woman of many talents.   Dulce Sloan Yeah, thank you. I'm very tired.   Amy Yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. You know what? Yeah, yeah. I feel like.   Dulce Sloan I mean, I tried. We tried to pitch like a crafting show with an Amy Poehler show was our yet. And I was like, f---.   Grace Making things.   Amy Wait a year, make it again.   Dulce Sloan Make it easier, do it again. I mean, it's great, but I'm just like, but what if it was black people? Yeah.   Amy But like lit a lot of a lot of things. What if it was Black people? Right.   Dulce Sloan Cause I often cause, like, honestly and what I really want to do, because, like, I watch all of these, like, murder mystery shows. Yes. They call, like, the cozy mysteries, the best that the whole like the genre of the book. So you have three you're like and I wonder.   Amy A blanket with your tea being like who got murdered.   Dulce Sloan Just holding with two hands like, oh, who did it?   Grace I'm safe here. Right.   Dulce Sloan So they have like 20, literally like 15. They got the one for the bitch. You play DJ on Full House.   Amy She be out here getting murdered.   Dulce Sloan I don't know. No. She's trying to solve the crimes.   Amy She's of solving the murders of murder.   Dulce Sloan And like Miranda Teagarden or some wild sh--, I don't know that that would be shady. And everyone I'm saying is that they have like, you can go like this, look like the crossword murders. The matchmaking works. Yeah, after like 20 of these shows, but there's only one with a black woman. And then her love interest is Rick Fox and all.   Amy And I want to start crafting with Dulce Sloan. I want this in my life.   Dulce Sloan This and we have to work on it because I want to be on my f---ing Scooby-Doo, Sherlock Holmes, Nancy Drew bullsh--.   Grace And we want to see that sh--.   Dulce Sloan Roll up to your neighborhood being like, I'm not sure who did it, but I have an idea.   Grace And then you go and interview the wrong person first, right?   Dulce Sloan Yes. She's out here looking for clues. And then there's my will. They won't. They love interest.   Grace Yes.   Dulce Sloan Because like the one with Lori Loughlin, like that was the only one where someone's married. Yeah, all the other ones. And they keep having these B and C storylines where her kids that are very useless.   Amy We don't care about the kids. We care about the woman who's solving the mystery. Yes, we care about the women solving the mysteries.   Dulce Sloan Right? So, like, I love her, but I'm just like, I'll give a f--- if your son that passes math test. You killed Pastor John.   Amy And that's the question to take home tonight, ladies. Who killed Pastor Justin. Thank you so much, you guys, for coming and seeing The Antidote Live.   Grace Oh, yeah. We hope this injected a little bit of joy into your week. I know it did mine. How about you, Amy?   Grace Yeah, it definitely did. We should do this again sometime. We should do this again. Live sometime.   Grace We couldn't have done it without you, our lovely audience. So thank you so much for being a part of our first live show. We hope to do more of these in the future.   Amy Yea, we doing with that. Goodnight.   Grace If you'd like to follow us on social, follow me. Grace at GracyAct. That's G-R-A-C-Y-A-C-T.   Amy And follow me. Amy at AmyAniobi. That's A-M-Y-A-N-I-O-B-I and follow the show at theeantidotepod.   Grace That's thee with two E's.   Amy If you like, feeling good about yourself. Please subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Antidote is hosted by us Amy Aniobi and Grace Edwards. The show's production team includes senior producer Se'era Spragley Ricks and associate producer Jess Penzetta.   Grace Our executive producer is Erica Kraus and our editor is Erika Janik. Sound Mixing by Evan Clark.   Amy Digital Production by Mijoe Sahiouni. Talent Booking by Marianne Ways. Our theme music was composed and produced by TT the artist and Cosmo The Truth. Send us your antidotes at AntidoteShow.org And remember to follow us on social media at theentidotepod. That's thee with two E's, y'all. What, what!

In This Episode: Amy Mariaskin, PhD shares her new book, Thriving in relationships when you have ocd What is Family accommodation and how does it apply to ocd Ocd family accommodation vs family support,  What is OCD reassurance and how it can creep into one's relationship Relationship ocd, also known as rOCD Relationship issues with ocd and how to manage them Sexual orientation OCD, Gender related OCD, and Harm OCD and the impact this has on relationships Attachment styles in ocd and how to understand them to help you navigate communication.  Links To Things I Talk About: Thriving in Relationships When You Have OCD: How to Keep Obsessions and Compulsions from Sabotaging Love, Friendship, and Family Connections Amy's Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ocdnashville/?hl=en ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor:This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety...If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 312.  Welcome back, everybody. This is going to be a really important episode for you to listen to. Today, we have the amazing Dr. Amy Mariaskin, who is what I consider to be a very dear friend, someone I very much respect. She has written a book about relationships and OCD, and we talk all about it. We go deep into some of the core skills and discussions she has in her upcoming book. And this is just going to be an episode I really feel like you could take away and put some skills together right away. I'm so thrilled. So, thank you, Amy, for coming on this show.  But before we do that, I would like to do the review of the week, and I really hope you listen carefully to this. Not because it's reviewing the podcast, but because I actually think the person who wrote this, who put in this review, is following some key points that I want you to consider. And this is what I encourage a lot of people to do. So, let's go.  This is from Detroitreview and they said: “Thank you, I just started listening today after having a few weeks of anxiety and irregular thoughts that I never experienced. I randomly chose your podcast and am thankful for your experience, knowledge and personal and situations. As a 46-year-old father of two boys and loving wife, your podcast gives me a sense of calming. I'm taking notes on each cast.” Guys, I encourage you to do this. This is a free resource. It is jam packed full of skills. I encourage you to take notes. So, I love that you're doing that Detroitreview. “While I started with the most recent, I have listened to #301/302/303.” And then they went on to say: “And they've already given me strategies that I'm using. I decided to start from your first podcast in 2016.” And that is what I encourage you all to do, mainly because those first 11 episodes are core content. I want you to take the content I talk with my patients about all the time. He went on to say, “I have been so impressed. I've listened to 1-2 daily. I'm up to 10 and 11. There's so many things to listen to and I'm so grateful for you. The meditations are amazing. Keep up the great work.” Thank you so much for that review, Detroitreview. That is exactly my intention. This is a free resource, you guys. I want you to take advantage of the skills and tools so that you can have a toolkit for yourself. And so, I'm so thrilled for that review. It just makes me feel like, yes, that's exactly what I want you guys to take from this podcast. Okay, before we get over to the show, let's talk about the “I did a hard thing” segment. This one is from Kelly, and they said: “I recently faced one of my biggest fears – general anesthesia.” Holy moly, Kelly, I feel you on so many levels with this. “I started struggling with some gallbladder issues and was told I needed to have it removed. I was terrified, and I didn't think I could go through with it. Thoughts were racing out of control. I sought help with therapy and your podcast. Thoughts are thoughts and not facts was huge for me. It was calm the day of the surgery, and I did it. Thank you.” That is amazing. You guys, listen, thoughts are thoughts. Just because you have them doesn't mean they're facts. I love that they're bringing in that key concept as well.  Alright, let's go over to the show. This is the amazing Dr. Amy Mariaskin. She's an OCD therapist. She's an advocate. She's an author of an upcoming book. You must go and check it out. I'll leave the link in the show notes. I am so, so honored to have you on the show, Amy. Let's get over to the episode. Kimberley: Welcome, Amy Mariaskin. I am so excited for this episode today. Can you do a little introduction of who you are and all the good things about you? Amy: Yes. Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. I'm Dr. Amy Mariaskin. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and owner and director of the Nashville OCD and Anxiety Treatment Center in Brentwood, Tennessee. I've been working with OCD and anxiety for over 15 years now, and I just absolutely love it. Kimberley: And you wrote a book? Amy: And I wrote a book. I know I need to get better about that. I was like, “Oh, do I say it now or do I say it later?” Kimberley: You say it all the way. Amy: All the time. I wrote a book. It was fun and not fun and everything in between. And I think we'll be talking quite a bit about it. It's called Thriving in Relationships When You Have OCD. Kimberley: Right. Now, when you told me that you were going to write this book, I was so excited because I feel like at the crux of everything we do, a lot of the time, the reason people with OCD want to get better or the thing that propels them is how much their OCD impacts relationships. Not always, but I feel like that's such a huge piece of the work. So, I am so grateful for you for writing this book, and it is an amazing book. I've read it myself. You did a beautiful job. And I want to cover some of the main pieces that you cover in your book today and go from there. So, first of all, congratulations. I know writing a book is not easy. Amy: Thank you. Yeah, it's been a dream for a long time. So, I'm excited about the accomplishment and I'm ready to figure out the next topic. When Ocd Is The Third Wheel Kimberley: Yeah. I love it. I love it. Okay. So, Chapter 1, I think it's funny. I'll have to tell you how, when I was reading your book, I was lucky enough to get an early manuscript. I remember sitting, it was with my kids at track and they were running. And I opened the book and the first chapter said, “The Third Wheel: Understanding OCD's Role in Relationships.” And I was like, “That's exactly it.” So, I was excited right off the bat. Tell me, what do you mean by the third wheel? Tell me a little bit about that. Amy: Yeah. First, I should also thank you for writing the wonderful foreword for the book. So, if anybody is a fan of Kimberley, yet another reason that you might be interested in this book. Well, let me think. So, yeah, the third wheel analogy, it felt very apt because when I work with couples, I often imagine, and sometimes I'll have couples imagine that the OCD is like this other presence in the room sitting there with us. Not physically, but in all the things that are important for relationships, all the ways that we develop intimacy, and that we even structure our time or the activities we choose to do together that OCD can wiggle right in there and can be this like third presence. And the thing is, it's really easy, I think, for somebody without OCD if they don't have good education or they don't understand it, to get that third wheel confused with the person with OCD itself. So, like, “Well, you never want to go out,” as opposed to saying, “We both want to go out.” And here's this other guy, OCD, really bossy, really pushy, really oppressive, who's also coming along with us. And even when you do the things that you love, OCD can come along.  So, it felt to me like this sense of something in the relationship that makes it both unbalanced and is this separate component and that both people, in coming together, have to find creative ways to connect around it or eventually connect and evict it more and more. And so, that's why I chose that metaphor. Kimberley: Yeah, I love that. And it's funny because I remember when I was an intern and I was seeing a family or perhaps the wife who had OCD, what was interesting is I'm sitting in my chair and I noticed that the family members always sat across from her as if it was like her versus them, like who's on which side of the team. And a big part of it was like, all you guys need to be over on that side of the room. You're the team. I'll be over here with OCD and we'll work this out. But I think that that, even metaphorically, is such an important part of how OCD can turn everyone against each other. Is that how you've experienced it? Amy: Yeah, I think at times there are a lot of conversations about how everybody has a common goal to figure out how to live with one another, develop intimacy, connections, be they friendships, parenting relationships, romantic relationships, even work relationships, and things like that, how to form those and how to come together around common goals. And sometimes OCD can be, again, confused as a goal that one person in the relationship has. And the truth is, everybody's suffering in a way, and that everybody can be a part of that process of, again, reducing symptoms or evicting it, things like that.  I do the thing as well when I have people in my office to just look at where are they sitting or when OCD comes up, what is the body language? Are both people really like arms crossed? Is the person with OCD hanging their head in shame, which we know could be such a powerful emotion and such an inhibitor of connection and vulnerability. So, I look for some of those and I remind them, “Head up, we're all talking to OCD right now, and we're all working with that, and we're all on the same team.”  Family Accommodation & Ocd Kimberley: Such an important message. Thank you for that. I think that's beautiful. So, let's say the third wheel, I always think of like you go on a date and the third wheel shows up. And we know that definitely happens with OCD. You addressed a lot in your book about family accommodation. Can you share what that means and how that can impact a relationship? Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Accommodation is this thing where we're extending this metaphor. You're on a date, you're with somebody, and the third wheel rolls on up. It's, “Hey, my buddy from college is here, what's up?” Essentially, accommodation is like, “Hey, why don't you have a seat right here? Here's the menu, here's a place mat.” It is anything that the person in the relationship without OCD is doing to make OCD have a comfortable place at the table. So, that's the metaphorical way. That's abstract, but bringing it down to practically what it looks like, it means doing things generally in the service of what feels comfortable in the moment for the person with OCD. We're going on a trip and I have concerns about contamination and I really want you to check all the hotels, do all this research to make sure that none of these places have ever had bedbugs or things like that. Then when we get there, we're dirty from traveling, so I'm going to need you to take a shower. And so, the person, the spouse is taking showers and doing research and perhaps taking over responsibilities from the person with the OCD in order to provide that short-term relief. But it ends up, again, making a place for OCD in the relationship. And it reduces that motivation for the person with OCD to change.  Family Accommodation is tricky. There are a lot of ways that it can happen. I think reassurance-seeking is certainly one that I think we'll talk about, but providing excessive reassurance about things to the person with OCD in a way to keep them comfortable but keep them caught up in compulsions. And I think it's important to note that a lot of times, partners will hear about accommodation. And just as much as we think being apprised of accommodation and looking out for it is important, it's also, I think, really important that partners understand that that's nuanced and that they don't take it to like, “Well, I'm not going to do that for you. That might be accommodation,” or, “I'm not going to reassure you about anything,” or “Is that your OCD?” I guess I say that to say that it's a little tricky, but it's really anything that is preventing the person with OCD from experiencing discomfort and thereby strengthening the cycle. Kimberley: Right. No, I'm grateful that you bring that up actually, because probably the one that I get asked the most from parents, and this not in every relationship, but with parents, is like, okay, my child is having a really hard time getting homework done, their OCD is impacting them. So, if I don't help accommodate them, if I don't do some compulsions for them, read for them or so forth, they won't do their homework. And then there's an additional consequence. So, they'll say like, “I feel like that's too risky. I could actually be letting my kid fall behind, so I can't stop doing this accommodation.” What are your thoughts on that? Again, how would you approach that type of situation? I mean, there's many examples. Amy: Sure. I think with a situation like that, first, I would validate the parents' love and desire for their child to do as well as possible. Most accommodation is coming from a place of love and not a deliberate enabling or anything like that. Of course not. So, I really provide a lot of validation there. And then I help them reframe it as, “One way to be loving and supportive in the long run is to really cheer your child on in taking over, taking on more and more ownership of that.” So, does that mean, “I know that I've been reading. Right now, I've been reading for you, and that makes it easier to do your homework. We also know that you have OCD and we know that your brain tells you, you've got to reread and reread and reread. So, can we be on the same team together, fight that rereading? I'm not going to read it for you because I love you, because I know you can do this. Boy, is it going to be hard at first and I'm going to be there to cheer you on and motivate you.” I sit with kids, I'm always about gamifying it. “Do we want to just race through this? We don't have to be perfect.” Again, it depends on the symptoms, if it's perfectionism or what's getting in the way.  And then what I say is, if a parent says, “Well, then they're really just not going to get their schoolwork done,” sometimes then I'll say, “Well, if it gets to the point where it is interfering with things like that, then it may be that they need a little bit more support.” Because it's like, with kids, your job is school and with the adults, your job can be a job or it can be care taking. It can be a lot of different things. But if one of those major domains of living is affected, then it may just mean that you need more support. So, we might up the number of sessions per week or refer out to another program or things like that.  But those kinds of things would be the same things I would say in any kind of relationship where there's an accommodator, which is, wow, you love your friend or partner or coworker so much that you're willing to do this stuff for them so that they're not suffering or so that they can demonstrate their potential as in the case of the kid with homework. But here's why that's not the loving response in the long run. Ocd Family Accommodation Vs Ocd Support  Kimberley: Right. You're right. I mean, you mentioned like, then we have the complete other end of the spectrum where people are going, “No, I'm cutting you off completely.” And I think too, I think it's important, as you said. Some accommodation happens in every relationship. I don't particularly like cleaning hair out of the sink drain. That's not my favorite. So, I'm going to ask my husband to do it, knowing that I take the trash out or whatever. We trade-off. So, how might people identify accommodation through the lens of OCD compared to loving exchanges of acts of service?  Amy: Right. Oh, I love that question, because essentially, what we call compromise in relationships could be called accommodation – accommodation by a gentler name. And I think part of that has to do with, what's the motivation there? You do such a wonderful job in your podcasts and online and everything of talking about how doing the hard things are important, and how if you're not doing the hard things and you're avoiding difficult things that can really shrink your world over time and put anxiety or OCD in the driver's seat. So, if the motivation, if a child or a spouse or a friend is asking-- well, if you are asking a child or a friend or a spouse, if you're saying, “Hey, can you do this for me,” or “I'd feel a lot more comfortable if you did this,” thinking about, is it a compulsion or a preference to me? There are so many different ways that we can look into that, but is it in the service of just like, I could, but I prefer not to? Or is it, I feel like if I do that, I'm going to be too anxious or I'm going to do too many compulsions, or something bad is going to happen? So, I think if the motivation there is more avoidance due to anxiety as opposed to just preferences, I think that's helpful.  Sometimes I'll say to people when they'll say to me like, “Well--” and I think division of labor in the house is such a good example. When people say, “Well, I don't ever take the trash out,” I will often ask, “Well, what happens when your roommates are out of town?” Let's say they're living in a roommate situation. And if they say, “Well, it just piles up and I can't deal with it,” then I say, “Aha, this might be a place that we need to work on and chip away.” And again, reducing accommodations doesn't mean like all of a sudden, I'm a garbage master and I'm the only one doing it. It might mean that I'm doing some exposures to get up to the point where I can have that role in the household.  So, I love that question of like, well, what if you had to do it? What would that be like? And if it's really hard, then hey, let's help break down some of those barriers and reduce accommodation. OCD Reassurance Kimberley: Yeah. I usually tell clients like, “Okay, let's just do it so that we know you can, and then you can move on to the next exposure.” Tell us about reassurance. You talked about it a little bit. And in your book, actually, the thing I highlighted, because I read it in Kindle, that I love the most is your reassurance tracking. Tell us a little about that.  Amy: Yes. Because again, I love that you're highlighting this because reassurance is something that is okay. Reassurance happens in all relationships. Again, we might call it by different names. It might just be checking in. It might be clarification. It might be getting information from one another. So, I developed a worksheet that's also available with the book that allows for people to track when they're asking for reassurance from loved ones, and to answer a series of questions that aren't going to give you a 100% certain answer of whether or not it's compulsive, but are going to give you some clues. So, on the worksheet, it says, people write down the situation. So, for example, I was asking my friend if she was mad at me. That might be the situation. And then there's a column that says, what were your emotions?  Again, if we're seeing anxiety, guilt, shame, some of those words might be a clue that our OCD is at play, but not always. And then people track, did you ask only once? Because we also know if it's truly the type of reassurance, “Oh, I just need to know. I'm having a vulnerable moment. I just need to know, is this okay with you? Are you upset?” Then asking once and accepting the answer is generally how it goes. So, if you're asking more than once, if you answer no to that, it's a clue that it could be compulsive reassurance. And then also, was the source credible?  I feel like I talk about this example a lot, but I just love it so much, which is that I worked with a little girl who was really worried about getting strep throat. She would ask everybody for reassurance about her tonsils. I mean, anybody and everyone. At one point, she took a picture and she was just old enough that she got social media. She put it on her Instagram and she was like, “Do you guys think I have a strep throat?” That was the caption. That was the little caption, which is like, she was laughing about it afterwards, but that's not a credible source. I mean, she wasn't even friends with all the docs in town or anything, or ear, nose, and throat specialist. So, was the source credible?  Now, often if it's social reassurance, it is a credible source. If I ask you, if I say, “Kimberley, was I too long-winded,” you're going to be able to tell me. So, you would be a credible source. If I leave this room right now after doing this podcast and I ask somebody, “Do you think I was long-winded? Do you think I was?” and they're like, “Well, we weren't there,” that's that answer. That's that question about credibility.  And then the last one is, did you accept the answer? Anxiety and OCD have this way of undermining. Well, pretty much everything, but undermining any answer we get and countering with it. ‘What if,' or ‘Are you sure?' ‘But I think...' So, if it's starting with a ‘but,' a ‘maybe,' a ‘what-if,' then again, it may not be that helpful reassurance-seeking. Relationship Ocd (Rocd) Vs Relationship Issues With Ocd Kimberley: Yeah, I love that. And thank you for adding that because I just love that template so much. That is just like gold. I love it so much. Alright. So, as you move into Chapter 4, I believe it is, you talk about specific subtypes of OCD that are commonly impacted in relationships. Can you share just briefly what your thoughts are around that? Amy: Yeah. I love this question too because as I've been talking about the book, a lot of people are like, “Oh, great, a book about ROCD, or relationship OCD.” And my answer to that, or my response to that is, “Yes, and...” Just a step back, any subtype of OCD can affect and often does affect relationships. Why? Because OCD goes after what's important to us. And for many of us, our connectedness with one another is just so important. That being said, there are subtypes of OCD that are relational in nature. And so, I do have a chapter that is more devoted to these types, and one of which is relationship OCD. This is a passion of mine. I've done now a few iterations of an ROCD treatment group at my clinic, and I have other plans to expand that group and do some cool programming around that.  But relationship OCD, it's basically when OCD symptoms are about the relationship itself or about the person with whom you're in relationship. So, it could be about-- we think about it a lot of times with romantic relationships, but it could be any relationship. To use a different one, it could be, am I a loving enough parent? Do I love my kids enough? How do I know? Do other parents have these thoughts? So, it could be about the relationship or it can be about the individual. Like, my spouse doesn't like the same music that I do, and are we ever going to get past this? And so, something that might be seen as, yes, it's an actual difference, but then there's all this story making around the difference and how the difference is going to be the demise of the relationship. Those are the two flavors of ROCD, relationship and partner-focused.  I also want to pause here and say that oftentimes when people talk about ROCD, I feel like there's this pull to say, “Well, if you know you have ROCD, if relationship issues come up in your relationship, it's probably your ROCD.” And that's just like another backdoor to the certainty that we all want. I think all relationships have some crunchy bits and some edges that chafe. And so, I want the people with ROCD to feel empowered to also develop the relationships that they want and then notice that maybe the ROCD turns up the volume on some of their concerns, if that makes sense.  Kimberley: It's hard, isn't it? Because so many times a patient will say, “But I don't know if I really love-- is he the one?” And we're like, “Well, we'll never know.” There's no way to objectively define that. And then someone, a friend is like, “Well, if you don't know, it must be a problem.” It's so hard for those people because people without OCD also don't know all the time either, so it's a common concern. Sexual Orientation Ocd & Gender Related Ocd Amy: Right. No, that's a great point. So, I have some stuff about relationship OCD in there and then the identity subtypes of OCD as well. So, sexual orientation OCD and gender-related OCD. I put those in there because oftentimes our identity is the foundation from which we interact with others and create relationships and things like that. So, I talk a little bit about sexual orientation OCD, not just even in dating, but in finding a community and friendship and things like that. SOOCD can rear up and lead to lots of social comparisons or it can just really try to sabotage certain relationships, and with gender-related OCD as well, be it somebody who is cisgender and wondering if they are transgender or vice versa. I've worked with people in the transgender community who have OCD and have these unwanted thoughts about like, “Well, what if this is not who I am? What if I've been doing this for attention?” And then, therefore, are wanting to compulsively disengage from their community because of the feeling of like, “Well, I don't feel authentic enough.” So, that's a way in which that can root in relationally. Kimberley: Right. So, we've got relationship OCD and identity. What are the other ones?  Harm Ocd & Its Impact On Relationships Amy: Yeah. And then the last one that I highlighted in here in that section is harm OCD. And I put that in there because harm OCD, which again is a huge category, which I would say under that are anything that's violent. That could be sexual as well. So, sexual violence toward others or sexual intrusive-- obviously, all intrusive thoughts, but intrusive thoughts about being sexual with children. I would roll all that into the harm OCD category. And this one is just, it's always so striking to me the ways in which OCD can take something that's really important. Like, I want to be a good person, I want to be a kind person and then undermine it. So, the amount of people I've worked with harm OCD who are experiencing isolation and really the self-imposed isolation, the irony of which is “I'm isolating myself because I don't want to harm others,” but then they're withholding themselves as this fantastic person to be out in the world. And so, that's what I always say, is you're doing more harm isolating, but sort of. Get out there. You have so much to offer and in fact, your OCD has attacked this area because it's important for you generally to have relations with others. Kimberley: Yeah, I love that. So, I love how you've given us a way, and as you said, it can impact any relationship outside of those subtypes as well. What I'd love to do is give you the mic and tell us just now, in general, give us your best relationship ideas, advice, tips, tools, whatever you want to call them, for the person with OCD and the loved ones of people with OCD. Amy: Yeah. Thank you. I feel like that's a dangerous thing to be giving me the mic. Kimberley: It's all yours. Go for it. What's the main thing you want people to know? Amy: I think I want for people to be able to-- number one, there's no right or wrong way to have a relationship provided that everything is consensual and respectful. And so, taking a step back-- and actually Russ Harris just put out this. I don't know if you saw this, but this incredible list of relational values words. So, there's an activity where-- or I don't know if it's new, it's new to me. That's clarifying what are your relational values and what are they with different relationships? Is it playfulness? Is it intimacy? And so, figuring out what you want and having your spouse do the same. In our relationship OCD group, most recently, we had people and their significant others, I shouldn't say spouse, do this and figuring out ways to connect around those things. I think it comes down to connection and to supporting each person, like supporting each other's goals.  I think I'm bringing this up in part because I think sometimes there are these narratives out there about like, we have to have all the same interests or opposites attract. And again, to that, I say yes, and... For some people, they want people with really similar interests and for others, they want somebody who's going to be different. But I think what we can do is support each other and try to see the world through your loved one's eyes and try to celebrate when they're celebrating.  I think part of this is like, I'm married to somebody who's a huge thrill seeker. He's paragliding. He just got his private pilot's license. He does things that are not in my nature. If he's gone out and he's done some sort of paragliding trip in a different country, and he'll come back and he'll say, “I found a lift here and there were thermals,” in my head, I'm like, “You didn't die. You didn't die. Yeah, you didn't die.” And I have to stop my own anxious story about it or my own interpretation of “I wouldn't like that” and just be there with him in that moment of sharing his joy. It's finding joy in others' joy. It's being there with other people's emotions about whatever they are. Because I think with anxiety and OCD, it can always be this upper-level analytical process of like, “Oof, I don't like that. Is that okay?” or things like that. I know a lot of the Gottman's research will talk as well about how very important it is to just support one another, be cheerleaders, et cetera.  Attachment Style & Ocd  I think too, knowing your attachment style. And this is a whole topic that we could spend forever on, but knowing if you're somebody who-- when you get close to others, do you feel more resistance in getting closer or do you feel worries about like, “Ugh, I don't want to lose myself by merging with someone else”? Or do you have more resistance around, “I'm worried they'll abandon me, I'm worried they won't love me enough?” And that's a very, very, very rudimentary look at two of the concepts of attachment, that more avoidant attachment where it's, “I'm worried I'll be subsumed by the other person and I value independence,” or more anxious attachment, which is, “I'm worried they won't love me enough or I'll be abandoned.” Knowing that and knowing when those thoughts come up, take a pause, take a step back and check in with yourself and your body and the facts and things like that, instead of reacting in that moment. When anxiety is there, it wants us to just react to every alarming or provocative thought that we have. So, yeah, those are some things. I know that I had them scrolling through because I know I had more in the book from the Gottman. They're top of mind. Kimberley: I think back to when I was first married, I was so young. So, if someone had explained to me attachment styles, it would've made the first five years so much easier. You know what I mean? My husband would go away. He's actually away right now. He would go away because he loves to fly fish. And for me, I would feel anxiety because he would leave and I would interpret, because I'm anxious, and I was like, “No, this isn't hard for me to be alone.” It would quickly turn to anger towards him for having a hobby. I'm totally fine to say this too. I'm feeling anxious here by myself. He's off doing something fun for him. So then I got angry that he's doing fun things and leaving me to have my anxiety. He would come home not to a happy wife. He would come home to wife with her hands on her hips. You know what I mean? And I think that that is so common for people with anxiety. When you're feeling anxious, you feel like they're doing it to you like, “Why are you doing this to me?” And then that can create a whole narrative that can interfere in relationship. So, that's just a personal example of how, if I had have known my anxious attachment early in our marriage, I think that would've saved us a lot of fights. Amy: Yeah. Oh, I love that example. And I feel like for me, as somebody who tends toward the other side, I tend to feel more worried about being stifled by relationships. I want to be fully seen and encouraged. And so, sometimes, in particular with friendships, if I've had people who are like, “I've felt exactly the same way,” or “I had the same experience,” or “We should do this all together. Let's get matching jackets,” I'm like, “I am an individual.” I get really threatened because my feeling is-- my brain's automatic interpretation is they don't see you because they think that you are just-- they assume like we're all the same, whereas they're just like, “We want to affiliate.” So, I've had to do some work there as well, even with friendships, to know like it's not-- people aren't trying to kidnap my identity and merge it with theirs. They're actually just being loving.  Kimberley: Right. But it feels threatening. Yeah, absolutely. I think the last question I have for you is, it goes back to that accommodation reassurance piece, particularly related to these dynamics. And maybe this is just my experience, I'd actually love to hear yours. What I do find is, when the person with OCD is coming from an anxious place, like often overanalyzing things, hyper-attending hyperawareness of things, their need for reassurance or their need for everyone to follow what OCD tells the family to do, I have found that the partner, because it's so overwhelming for them, tends to flip to the other end of the spectrum where they don't worry about anything or they're like, “It's fine.” Or maybe even they're frustrated of like, “It's fine, it's fine.” Have you noticed that as a trend in dynamics of a relationship? Amy: Yeah. Sometimes almost like there's a dismissiveness. Yes, I have noticed that and I think that there are so many reasons why that can happen. And I think for the partner and their experience, getting at what that is and what's motivating that is so interesting because, to the person with anxiety or OCD, it can feel really invalidating, or it can feel very comforting. But I think a lot of the times, it can feel invalidating and the partner might be doing it because they might be having their own feelings come up about, “I don't know what to say.” I've tried to use facts and sometimes facts can bounce right off of OCD if you're not in the mindset to accept them. OCD is skeptical about everything. So, I've tried everything and I'm really now at this place of like, “I am so tired.” And it'll come out. “I'm so tired of hearing you talk about this.” And that's when, as a clinician, I see time out. I think you're both really tired of this cycle that OCD has you both in.  So, yeah, I will see that. And I think sometimes when that's the pattern as opposed to a lot of overly accommodating, I think when that's the pattern, the element for me in working with couples to inject back in there is the validation of, “This is really hard.” And also for them to take a step back and realize, well, not everything is going to be OCD either. Sometimes if there is reassurance-- I mean, again, the irony is sometimes this pattern can lead to more reassurance because then it's like, “Well, you just dismissed me. You said that there's nothing wrong in our relationship that you did it in a manner that felt dismissive. And so, now I'm going to ask again.”  So, yeah, deconstructing that pattern. Does the partner feel angry? If so, you're angry at this pattern, not your partner. Does the partner feel helpless, hopeless? Did they feel scared? Are they grasping at straws? So, yeah, that would be how I would look at that when I see it come up. Kimberley: Oh, thank you. I'm so grateful that you shared all that because I think they are all great questions that need to be addressed within the relationship. Thank you. So good. Okay, tell us about your book. I want to be respectful of your time. Tell us about your amazing book, which I think every family that has members should read. Tell us about it. Amy: It's called Thriving in Relationships When You Have OCD: How to Keep Obsessions and Compulsions from Sabotaging Love, Friendship, and Family Connections. It's available for pre-order as of the recording of this, which is in October, but I think this is going to come out later. It will be hot off the presses December 1st from New Harbinger Publications, available on Amazon, available through New Harbinger, I think available on other websites. People keep sending me links and I'm like, “Wow, that's really cool.”  So, yeah, I tried to cover all different kinds of relationships. We talk about family relationships, parenting, romantic relationships, sex and intimacy and those kinds of relationships, friendships, work, and really just a relational lens to what can be a very isolating and security disorder. And I don't want anyone to feel like they have to go at it alone. Kimberley: Thank you. Again, hats off to you. Much respect. You did a beautiful job writing the book. It's an honor. I was so honored to write the foreword. And I think, again, it's like a handbook I think everybody needs to have on the onset of being diagnosed. Here's the book to make sure you can protect your relationship and nurture the relationship outside of OCD. So, thank you. Amy: Well, thank you for having me.

You know your body. You know when something isn't quite right. Your symptoms have a cause and you shouldn't accept comfortability. Join a conversation on recognizing discomfort and making a change with a certified nutritional practitioner and professional basketball player.  If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:The support and lifestyle of women in professional basketball Starting before being the expertSpace and grace in the comparison game Your optimal health shouldn't be a dreamIdentifying and getting over our fear of failure. Episode References/Links:Flo By Alisa VittiIG @coachamyraeGuest Bio:Hello! I'm Amy, a retired professional athlete who was diagnosed with my 2nd autoimmune disorder in 2016. I went from playing professional basketball all over the world to battling professional fatigue and not recognizing myself in the mirror. From my rock bottom moment, I felt a nudge that told me there had to be a better way & I relied on my mindset built within my athletic career to pave the way to feeling like myself again--and even better! Currently, I'm certified as a Nutritional Therapy Practitioner (NTP), specializing in thyroid health, striving to support women in advocating for their health, getting their energy back, and feeling like themselves again  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  Hey, Be It listener. What's up? Okay, so I just love, I love the way the world works. I love that how you can meet people and have conversations with people and learn something you never knew you'd have. And I don't think we do that enough. So if you are feeling stuck, if you are feeling alone, if you are feeling like uninspired. I want you to have a conversation with someone you don't know. I want you to ask them questions. So if you're like, "How do I do that? I'm so scared. I'm an introvert." Look at the local meetups, look at Eventbrite, look at like opportunities that are happening for a networking situation. And then you're gonna find someone who makes eye contact with you. And you're gonna smile at them. And then you're just going to ask them questions, you don't have to a... you don't have to say anything. You can just ask them questions like think 40 Old Virgin just like ask a question, if you don't know what to say ask a question. And the reason is, people do like to talk about themselves, but also going to learn something about somebody. And I think we underestimate how inspiring it can be to learn another person's story and what they're going through. And even if it maybe not inspiring, but maybe you feel seen, and feeling seen as something that we all truly, truly want. And so my next guest for you this week is Amy, Amy Denson, and I am really excited for you to hear her story. And I want you to listen to her story because maybe you don't have this story. Like maybe you weren't this like professional and NB like women's basketball player. I certainly wasn't. But as I listened to her story, I thought about my health story. And I thought about some of the health stories of people who have listened to the show and written in. And I truly think that a lot of times we think we're alone, and this is only happening to us. And I know for myself, when I started actually sharing my story about my stomach, I started of find out how many people had stomach issues. And I wish I had started talking about earlier, it was embarrassing. So I didn't want to but I wouldn't have felt alone. And so as you listen to today's interview, I really want you to hear her story and see yourself in it. And I, I really am excited for you to hear what she's up to, which is excited about next, how she got on this mission that she's on. And also, of course, you know, I love those BE IT action items that hers are really cool. And they're going to challenge you in the best ways. So after this message here, Amy.Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.All right, Be It listeners I have a very special special guest Amy Denson here. Amy has an incredible story, I've be... I'm really excited for you to hear it because I think it's really easy to think, "Well, it must be easy for them. But I've got these things going on or I have this setback or this obstacle." And we can kind of let those obstacles become just like a reason to not do something. And Amy is certainly not letting that happen. So, I'm excited for you to be inspired by her and hear how she did it. So Amy, tell everyone who you are and how you got here.Amy Denson 3:42  Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and to meet you. Um, so my story is, you know, it's all of ours probably could go on forever. But I grew up playing basketball and I always knew that in my heart. That was what I was supposed to do. And I you know, felt most in my skin and confident and as a pretty tall, broad shouldered, strong young woman who did not fit in in any other scene. Basketball was really home for me. I received a full ride scholarship to Arizona State University. We did some amazing things there. We created history there. We were the first team to make it into the Sweet 16 tournament of the NCAA tournament. (Lesley: Whoa! That's a insane journey.) Oh, yeah. So. Yeah, yes. And it was really cool because we had a really young team. So for the majority of my career, I got to play with the same people which is very, very special. (Lesley: That's incredible) Yeah, and then after I graduated, I just wasn't done and I signed with an agent and then I ended up playing overseas professionally for eight years. So I played in Puerto Rico for four seasons. I played in Australia for three years. I played in Poland, Romania and Spain. And so ...Lesley Logan 5:04  What a life? Like how (Amy: Yeah) cool. I so when we moved to Las Vegas there, I mean, LA had a WNBA team but I'm not going to downtown. So but the Las Vegas team is like (Amy: The Aces) ... Yeah, the Aces. (Amy: Yeah) It's a short stint down the street actually from (Amy: Yeah) where I live, like really close and my Dad and I would go we'd like, "Oh, hey, there's a game today. Let's go." And it was Brad came and it was so fun we get, we actually probably get the worst seats in the house. And most people think but like it's just the side of this of the of the basket. So it's like all the action is there the whole game (Amy: Yeah) and it's like, so fun. (Amy: That's so awesome.) Those women are amazing. I mean, (Amy: Yeah) as were you but like, it's kind of crazy. I don't think people realize that. (Amy: No) So many female basketball players spend most of their life playing for multiple teams at the same time and around the world. Like you're, they're not (Amy: Yeah) making NBA wages, which is really annoying.Amy Denson 5:53  No. And that's the thing. Yeah. And so really the WNBA I mean, it's, you know, still probably the best league in the world, but women make their money overseas. And so unless you know, do get some sponsorships here as well as your pay. You know, if you do have WNBA on your resume, you can make pretty decent money overseas and overseas is much different as far as like really even support wise for women. And I don't think that women, even young women in college, understand maybe they do more so now but when I was in college, how many opportunities there are to play at a next level? And yes, sometimes, I mean, there's just so many different options, maybe that just means you get paid, you know, a little bit extra, but you get your room and board and you know, a couple of meals, but you you're basically traveling for free, right, you're seeing the world for free. I was able to make a pretty decent wage. And I you know, really kind of moved up the ranks and played in some really amazing conferences against some really amazing athletes. And I think, you know, people may not like to, you know, I think put the women's game down quite a bit as far as pace and athleticism and all that kind of stuff. But I do think, I don't think people understand the amount of effort it takes to be professional edit anything. (Lesley: Yeah. No I don't think so.) Right. And then you add anything physical in there. And yeah, physical is a huge part of it. But the once you're at a professional level, it's the mental game, right? It's an emotional game. It's, it's a, you know, the battle to how do I, how do I beat my opponent? That's probably just as good or better than me, you know. SoLesley Logan 7:27  Right. That might, that you might end up being on the team with in another time.Amy Denson 7:32  Right. Yeah, so it was a beautiful experience. I actually, I really miss traveling, like to my core right now. I just I lived out of a suitcase and had a laptop for eight years. And it just was the most amazing experience. It was hard. And it was isolating at times, especially (Lesley: Yeah) with language barriers, but I got to get paid and travel in my gift for my gift. And so I was so blessed because I got to live out my first dream. (Lesley: Yeah.) And I don't know how many people can really, you know, say that when, as you're growing up, and it's just something that I always knew that I was going to do. And it was, there was no doubt or question in my mind.Lesley Logan 8:12  Yeah, I think that thank you for saying that. Because I do think a lot of people make sacrifices or they think, "Okay, I went to college, and I gotta do this, I gotta go be a grown up." And like, you know, you are one of the few people who's like, "You know, I'm gonna keep doing my passion." And, and yeah, it's not making you the money that's going to like, put a house on the ground or anything like that. But it did allow you to see the world and experience the highs and the lows from that. And so, you know, I cut you off in your story. Like, what made you leave? Did you just like injure out? Did you age out? Did you get (Amy: Yeah) tired of what was that? What was the next step?Amy Denson 8:47  I don't know why, but I always had it in my mind that I would probably retire by around age 30. And I was really, I was just kind of burnt out. I was really tired. I'd been playing year around for a long time. I just needed a break more so emotionally and mentally. And I also was getting into a serious relationship with my best friend who is my now my husband. And I just felt in my heart. It was time. (Lesley: Yeah.) And so when I came back to the United States, it was it was so hard because I hadn't lived here for eight years. I couldn't get a job. Nobody would look at my professional history as a job. So it looks like to them I had gra... unless they had a sports background. Like I'd graduated college and then I just showed back up when I was you know 30. (Lesley: That's so interesting.) Yeah, it was just ...Lesley Logan 9:45  I never would have thought about that. Like it would be so it's like your resume like doesn't start and so they're like, you have no experience except for that you (Amy: Right) like so much experience like what it takes to be (Amy: Right) on a team, what it takes to win a game like you know, like you're right unless they know sports, they don't see a talent, skill set there.Amy Denson 10:00  Yeah. And so there was like a major, major identity crisis. You know, I didn't really understand or know how to introduce myself without saying, "Hi, Amy, I'm played professional basketball." It was it was just everything, you know, it was my pride, it was my joy, it was everything. And so to now really kind of step back and, and not only not be acknowledged for that effort, but really have to start over not only like career wise, but for my for myself, like, who am I without basketball, (Lesley: Yeah) which was very hard, and I knew it was going to be hard to retire. But it did not know how hard it was gonna be. I didn't know, I didn't realize the grieving process I would have. (Lesley: Yeah.) And so I just kind of floated around, I got my personal training and certification so that well, this is obviously the next thing. I still want to be active. You know, I didn't know what to do. And ...Lesley Logan 10:52  But you know, what all I see is like, of course, like, who wouldn't want to train with like, I mean ...Amy Denson 10:56  Yeah, why not? I want to work out. Let's work out together, you know.Lesley Logan 10:59  Yeah. Who would want to train with a WNBA player or a women's (Amy: Yeah) basketball player? Like, I like that would be a great calling card. (Lesley laughs) (Amy: Yeah, exactly.) I mean, you'd have to want to do it. So how, so you went and got your training? (Amy: Yeah) And how did that go?Amy Denson 11:11  It went okay. It was just, it was just a hard time, it was a really hard time, it was a rough transition for a couple years, I ended up landing in a college coaching position for a small division one at college in Oregon. And I thought, "Well, duh, this is what I'm supposed to do, hello." And I actually, I loved it, I really think that it could have been a really good path for me, it's just again, for women's basketball, the money is nothing, which is not everything, but we've got to live (Lesley: We got a paying bills. Yeah) We gotta pay. And it's just, you know, it just, I wasn't in a very good working environment as far as with the other adults, unfortunately. And this is when I started to really experience some symptoms that I wasn't used to. So I only knew how to work out one way. If I was dealing with anything stress wise, you know, lifewise, for me working out with, you know, it's a much as a mental and emotional release as it is a physical, so I only knew how to work out one way, which is like, balls to the wall. Like, if you're not close to puking, and you push through the wall, all of these things that we had, like we did to (Lesley: Yeah) stay in shape, right. But I noticed like it wasn't really quote unquote, "working" like it used to, I noticed, like I was just so fatigued, I was really, really high stressed. I just felt like, emotionally a little out of control. And (Lesley: Yeah) I wasn't sure I don't know how to describe that I just did not feel like myself. And ...Lesley Logan 12:45  And I can resonate with that though, Amy because it's like, a you like you're already in a transition of some kind anyways, like your life as you knew it has changed. And you're, it's not like it was like easy to step back into the world. And so then you're like trying different careers out. And then also the way you train isn't working the way it used to. And also like, our bodies are getting older, like there is this weird thing because I was an athlete too. And then like, you hit 30 and you're like, "Wow, I can't do two a days anymore. Should I be doing two a days?" (Amy: Right) But like, I also don't know a different way. (Amy: Right) So, (Amy: Yeah) you know, you're kind of going, like, in, in your health and your workouts in every part of your life. Everything is different and out of control. So of course you're gonna feel stressed. (Amy: Yeah) And all these things, and it's hard to articulate when you're in it.Amy Denson 13:31  Absolutely. And so I started to go to a couple doctors for some help. And, you know, just kept getting the all, "Eat less and workout more," duh. (Lesley laughs) Cool. (Lesley: Okay thanks.) I just really felt like in my experience. You know, after seeing multiple doctors, I started to lose my hair. I started my hair was thinning. I just noticed all of these things. And I was like, "My God I just ..." I just feel off, right? I just feel off. I went I was just you know, as we do, I was like on Google and this and that. So I I read that a dermatologist could help with hair. So I went to a dermatologist who told me I was prematurely balding at 33 and I was like, "Are you sure? Like is like really?" And so I ended up going to an endocrinologist who one of the top and in the field for Oregon. And I had gone to the ER because I had I have nosebleeds or I had nosebleeds that I couldn't get stopped. So I had to go to the ER. And when I leaned back for them to, to basically cauterize my nose, I have two huge nodules on my neck and the guy was like, "Have you gotten those checked out?" And I said, "No, I didn't even know that they were there." So I went to this endocrinologist. We did an ultrasound and she's like, "Yep, you've got Hashimotos." And I was like, "Okay, what, what's Hashimotos?" And she's like, "Well, it's an autoimmune disorder where your body is attacking your thyroid tissue" because it thinks that there's a foreign invader, something's going on. I'm like, "Okay, well, does this explain, you know." Because a lot of times Hashimotos and hypothyroidism go hand in hand. "So does this explain me having cold hands and feet?" So poor circulation? "Does this explain me losing hair? Does this explain me gaining weight specifically around my midsection? Does this explain me feeling like I'm losing my GD mind?" She said, "Yeah." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, great. So like, what do we do about it?" She goes, "Nothing. (Lesley: No) We wait, we wait until your body attacks your thyroid so much that it doesn't work anymore. And then we will start hormones."Lesley Logan 15:31  That is not an option. That is, so you just have to suffer?Amy Denson 15:34  And I think, I think it's really interesting because, you know, the way that I was raised to is like, well, she obviously knows more than me, right? Because she's a doctor. (Lesley: Yeah.) And so I walked away from that feeling, obviously very defeated. And also, the way that I approach things as an athlete is like, I'm going to control it as much as I possibly can. So what can I do? What can I do? Not knowing the things that I was doing, were probably escalating it. (Lesley: Yeah) Um, and so it was about two years later that I, we had some people over for Memorial Day, and I got incredibly sick. And I literally remember, like shutting the door that like saying our goodbyes, and as soon as I shut the door, I just started crying. And I just said, "I can't live the rest of my life like this. Something is wrong, something is off. And I need help." (Lesley: Yeah) And from that day forward, that has been my mission. And now that I have more information, because Hashimotos is my actual life, my second autoimmune disorder. And with thyroid related disorders, illnesses, whatever, it's so common, and there's just so much that goes into it. And a lot of it kind of goes against the grain of like our diet culture, workout culture, and all of that. So there's so much mental and emotional stuff that's tied up into that, you know, the two a days or the, you know, anyway, working out, eating less all of that. So, once I kind of started on my own health journey, I've now made it my mission to help other women not feel alone, and really to feel like themselves again, because I really think the biggest thing that's missing right now, in like, our standard medical care system is that we're just there's no empathy. I don't think we're even being heard. (Lesley: Yeah.) And of course, you know, I think a lot of times, which is okay, I'm not saying anything is wrong with medication, but I do think we have to also be aware of everything else that goes into the healing process, besides support for medication. (Lesley: Yeah) I have absolutely nothing against it, if it if it helps people, I am on it. But that's not the only thing that we can't just pop a pill and it be okay, we can't just pop a pill and not address our stress levels.Lesley Logan 17:58  You're... (Amy: You know) that's just it and like, I think, you know, some... one of my, my previous assistant was amazing. And she actually teaches people on how to be their own health advocate, or how to be an advocate for others. (Amy: Yes.) And I think we all like I'm sure, maybe generations younger than us, maybe they they are wise and all knowing that the doctors ... (Amy: Probably, they probably. Yeah) they're they come out knowing that no one knows what they're doing. (Amy: Yes) We, I grew up like the doctor knows they knew everything. (Amy: Well, yeah.) They went to school. They're the most educated person. (Amy: Absolutely.) And I had similar, like health issues where like, they literally like, "Well, you have IBS, so just, you know, eat like this, don't eat these things." I mean, those are very nutritional things. I think I'm probably supposed to eat those. You know, and I wasn't my own advocate, I probably wouldn't, I probably be dead right now, to be honest, because I was just like, suffering so much. And it was I my nutritional levels were so bad that I like had no B 12, no vitamin D, all these things. I think I would probably be divorced. And, and (Amy: Yeah) and a shell of a human. So I want to go back to something though, because you've made it this mission to like really help women who are going through this? Because you're going through this, I think the question is like, how do, how, what were the first steps or what the steps that you took to help other women go through something that you yourself, were still learning? Because I do think a lot of listeners get stuck in that they're like, "Well, I'm not the expert yet. So I can't do the thing that I'm feeling called to do." And you were like, "I'm being called do this." How did you do that? How did you kind of wrap your (Amy: Yeah) head around that?Amy Denson 19:32  Well, I think you know, it really started with obviously my own, getting my own ish together, and I don't have it together. But I do have a lot of knowledge around it. I do have a lot of knowledge around what works for me and what doesn't, which I feel like provides a lot of I don't know security, or when we feel out of control and we don't know what's causing what. It's like we just go down this rabbit hole of symptoms or what did I eat? What did I not eat? How did they move? What did I do different here? And that's all I used to do. And it was just so time consuming and energy sucking and defeating. So I think really, for me, the first step was, if anybody is out there, find some a doctor of some sort that's going to support you and has experience in whatever if you do know your diagnosis or don't know, I found a naturopath that it like changed my life, and I'm still with her today. I think that's your first step. I think me going on my own health journey, and then feeling a little bit better, always helps to like feel like I have capacity to help other people. (Lesley: Yeah) And I really think that the health journey is all it is, is a trial and error, I think we get so stuck in doing the right and wrong things. That it just, it's just like destabilizes us. And it's just trying this, see how this works. How does your body feel in this? Hey, if it doesn't feel good here, let's, let's tweak it and try try this and like just keep continuing to do that along the way with the intention of healing your body or with the intention of supporting your journey supporting your body in that. I think we just we've got to be a little bit more flexible in our thinking, and what we are willing to try it and not try or you know, really not get stuck and what diet worked for for your best friend. And it's not working for you now. I think we really get stuck in food specifically. (Lesley: Yeah.) Where I think that we don't always need to be, we don't need to always label how we eat as a diet. It's just how we eat. (Lesley: Yeah.) You don't need to be in a specific lane all the time. And I think that so, (Lesley: Yeah.) I would just say just being a couple steps ahead. Those couple steps make a really big difference for somebody else. And I (Lesley: Yeah.) always tell myself, "If I could help this person feel 10% better? How would their life improve?" Because when I was at my rock bottom, when I shut that door and said goodbye and started crying, I would have given anything to feel a little bit better. Or I would have given anything to have a little bit more knowledge around, "What the hell is going on with my body?"Lesley Logan 22:13  Yeah, um, I thank you for sharing that because I do I do believe like, people think that they have to be 15 steps ahead, the people that they're going to help. And it's like, you just have to be a couple steps ahead. Like, you know, because 15 steps ahead is like, you know, I know like, well, look like, well let's just talk about we're on a podcast, you're listening to this. Some of the people I look up to have like, a thousand episodes. I'm like, "That is overwhelming. That is like, yes, it's yes, inspiring. Yes, it's showing me the what's possible." But also like to think of it from, I don't know what episode this is going to be while we're recording it, but it's at least 100 and I don't know, eight. And, (Amy: Ah, that'a awesome.) you know, and so that that feels like a big gap. But I was just talking to somebody yesterday who has 300 episodes, and he was giving me some tips. And those felt very doable. He's only a few steps ahead of me, right. So I love that you share that. And I also think it's like not to underestimate like the power that you can help someone even if it's a couple percentage, you know, a little bit, (Amy: Yeah) and then you're because you're working on yourself, you're getting a couple more steps ahead. And so you're bringing (Amy: Right) everybody with you. (Amy: Right.) So thank you for sharing that. And I also think, you know, and I don't know, you'll have to tell me how long was for you. But I don't think a lot of people give the things that they're trying out enough time. (Amy: Absolutely not.) You know, like, Jenn Pike has been on our podcast before. She says, "When it comes to your hormones, it's 100 days. So the things we're doing, you're like, you don't get to even tell me anything for 100 days, like maybe you're gonna feel better right away. But the reality is, is like, it's going to take some time because the you know, like, the stuff we did has already affected what's happening right now."Amy Denson 23:51  Right? You know, it's taken us, you know, for a lot of clients or people that are around me, or that I work with, it's probably, you know, mid 30s, 40s. It's taken, we've been through a lot of shit by now. It's taken us a while to get here. And I don't think we realize just like you said, our habits and actions and everything. It's all led up to this. So in, you know, thinking back, we didn't necessarily get away with eating and drinking and moving a certain way. It's just where we've kind of caught up to this moment. And in this moment, and so, yeah, in our 20s we I feel like we're always in this comparison mode, but you have a family now, we have responsibilities. It looks different now, you know, our stress level is so incredibly high. And we keep addressing everything as, well, it's not mean it's not too high. It's probably normal, right? No, it's absolutely not and we don't realize that, all of that that how that is affecting our health. And even you know, my clients I work with 1 on 1, 6 months is probably the baseline. And that's just getting started. And I think that people feel like at the beginning at the starting line, like six months, like, "Oh my gosh, that's so long." But we're talking about the rest of your life. Six months is nothing and, and I'm not trying to, like, (Lesley: It's like, diminish or...) If you feel bad. Yeah, it make you feel bad, but like, we're just getting started. (Lesley: Oh, yeah.) We're just getting started this and I think that we just have this, you know, I think getting ready for a wedding or getting ready for a vacation or whatever, there's always a start and an end and a start and end, which is creating this yo yo dieting, culture mindset. And it literally like indicates it like as a, our blood pressure's going up and down, up and down, up and down, which is so hard on our body, we've got to instill some consistency within our, our health, within our life. And that comes with time, we never give anything enough time. And if we would just do really tiny things like tiny steps, and did them consistently for 90 days, for 100 days, for six months, for a year, we we discredit the amount of momentum we could build by (Lesley: Yeah) just doing small things, we think we have to start the diet on Monday, we think we have to, you know, start working out five days a week, no excuses, all of this kind of language, which yes, it worked for us at one time, and I was a part of all of that. But if we are going to be sustainable over a life, and you are dealing with health issues, and you have stress in your life, and and and you're a woman, (Lesley: Right) we have to, we have to find a different way.Lesley Logan 26:53  There has been a lot, there's like space and grace, it's like, I think you men... you mentioned it before, like there's comparison in there, we're comparing ourselves to like other people, even our own age, and it's like, like, specifically specifically for you, you have two autoimmune diseases, you said, just like two up two that's a lot. Like one's a lot. Two is different, right? So you can't compare yourself to somebody that have any, just like, I can't compare myself to somebody who never who never had an injury or never like, and I think we're wasting a lot of time there. We're also not giving ourselves credit for what we did do to get here. (Amy: Right. Absolutely.) And, and, you know, you said earlier, like six months sounds like a long time. But like, I dealt with some issues for 10 years, 10 years. And so I can say now that I am like, six years post, like actually got the diagnosis actually figured the thing. Now when I have a flare up, I'm like, "Oh, I know exactly what the trigger is." (Amy: Yes.) I'm stressed out. I'm stressed out and I am not being kind to my body. I need to bring everything all the (Amy: Yeah) cortisol down where and you know, I am I ended up even using this tracking app for my cycle, because I filmed for workout. So I'm there are some weeks where I'm filming 14 workouts, which in the grand scheme of things, it's like an hour of workout. So I so I, it's like the workout for the day, right? But I should not be doing that one of the weeks of everyone, that week, (Amy: Yeah) I should not be doing that I should be like, "Okay, I can go for my walk" I can do you know, like run, but I'm not going to like push myself, that needs to be low impact really kind in my body, stretchy stuff. And so when they changed once I had that information, I changed when I was working when I was filming, my inflammation and my stomach issues also went down. And so (Amy: Yeah) it's this thing that like we sometimes we take things like that's just how it is. And other times we think like, (Amy: Right) "Oh, that's too long, I don't have that kind of time." But to your credits, like once you have the information you start to have the healing process, then you have your whole life ahead of you and like that's gonna be a lot longer than the six months of like, (Amy: Yeah) having to trial and error and figure things out.Amy Denson 28:56  Yeah, I think there's just so much reassurance and, and really getting to know your body. And I you know, I think we talk so much about things that are common, but they're not normal. So your body is talking to you all the time. And we've got to start listening. We have to, we cannot push it aside and just keep pushing forward. I'll sleep later all, I'll put myself first later right or when when this ends, then you know when summer starts, whatever that is, because if you are having awful periods, your body's screaming at you. If you are having bloating, gassing, women if you are not pooping every day, your body is telling you something. So so many things that I think that you know, for a long time I just thought well, my cramps feeling awful for for the first day or two my period or the week up to, it's just how my mom experienced it. That's just how it is for me. Absolutely not. We are not meant to feel in this comfort most of our life. (Lesley: Right.) And so I think really starting to listen to your body and that is the information that we can work with.Lesley Logan 30:09  So can we talk about that? Because I think that that is a really important thing that some people like, "Now I like, I listen to my body." And then there's the perfectionist and overachievers listen to like, "But wait. Like, what does that mean? How do I do that?" So you mentioned, we gonna poop everyday ladies. You also mentioned like, serious cramps, like, yeah, people like, "Oh, I have PCOS or I have this." It's like, yeah, but even people with that don't have to have the worst cramps, there (Amy: Right) are still things you can do. So, (Amy: Absolutely) you know, because I used to have a friend, I had a friend of my practice, I remember, she was only going to the bathroom once every two weeks. And she was (Amy: Right) going to the doctor for this. And the doctor was like, "You just have a really lazy colon." And she's like, "I got that, you didn't, I don't need your medical opinion for that." She's like, I (Amy: Right) she did not have a lazy colon, though (Lesley laughs) (Amy: Right) like rolling faster.Amy Denson 30:56  My colon is not inherently lazy. It's not a choice. It's not on the couch watching Netflix like what do we need to do here?Lesley Logan 31:02  Yeah. So what are some others like, what are some? It maybe they're not easy, but what are some ways that people could listen to their body? Do they journal? Like, is there an app? Like what tool did you use to start listening to your body and paying attention to signs?Amy Denson 31:16  Um, I think my I mean, my awareness is pretty high. I've been listening to my body for a while, as an athlete, I had to, to make sure we're good to go, you know, all of that. But I mean, I think journaling is is a great form. I think really listening to podcasts, listening or books information. Alisa Vitti has a great book in the flow about women's cycle, about even like you were saying, how do you, how can we move within our cycle to really support our cycle? How can I eat within my cycle to really support my cycle? So I think if you're experiencing any discomfort, I would just note that or even imagine like, if, if I imagined my health is like, optimal, though, you know, I imagined myself like, walking through a beautiful field and, you know, the sun shining, and I just feel my absolute best. What does that look like? It does that look like I don't have heartburn anymore? Does that look like I don't have awful periods? Does that look like you know, my hair isn't thinning? Does that look like I don't feel cold all the time? Or I feel like I'm in control of my body. And I'm not just gaining weight all of a sudden, I don't know why? You know, what is that, what is that perfect ish health look like for you? And what symptoms are you experiencing that you would like to either reduce or eliminate?Lesley Logan 32:54  Yeah, I like that, I think because that's like, that allows every single listener to choose it for themselves. And you're not comparing my loves because that's not going to get you, (Amy: No, no, no.) you can't like everyone's going to have something that's a different optimal health. But I do think that like, you know, like, so if you're listening to this, if you heard any symptoms that she mentioned there, you're like, "Oh, the I have heartburn." Like, you don't have to have heartburn. And you don't have to take the Prilosec or whatever it's called to like, get rid of it every time you eat. Like, there are things you know, and holistic doctors, like I love mine. She's she's been on the (Amy: Right) podcast before and like, there's things I'm like, "Oh, I just live with this." And she's like, "No, you don't, actually."Amy Denson 33:34  Not necessary. (Lesley laughs) And it's just it's just really, it's about what can we do in specifically with heartburn, your body is just telling you, there is a need for some functional support there. We are, you know, and so what can we do to get your body to start performing digestively a little bit more optimally, so that we are not only reducing you taking any like, you know, Prilosec or PPI or anything like that. But we want to reduce the heartburn because it's just an indication that your body is not properly digesting, which (Lesley: Yeah) is everything. (Lesley: Right and that's all your nutrition and all the things. Yeah.) Yeah, just another, it's just another symptom. It's just another way of your body's saying and it. You know, there's no shame around our symptoms. (Lesley: Yeah.) And I think we really need to step away, step back from that. Even weight gain, that's a symptom of something. Right? Weight loss is a symptom of something. So let's figure it out. And you know, I don't think, you know, a lot of time we keep going back to, "Well, I ate this, I didn't eat that. I can't eat this because this causes that." It's a matter of function and really supporting that, rather than having to pick out which foods that you can and can't eat for the rest of your life. (Lesley: Yeah) We really need to get down to the root of what's going on and just say, "Hey, this is what I'm experiencing. I'd like some relief in these areas or more knowledge around these areas. And let's make a plan to move forward." But because you're experiencing something, you are not doing anything wrong. We just need to get more knowledge around what the heck is going on. And I understand that there is hope for some relief. And for a long time, I didn't feel like I had a lot of hope it was something that I had to deal with. (Lesley: Yeah) And so I would get so hard on myself for doing this or doing that, and then my symptoms would pop up, or symptoms would pop up. (Lesley: Yeah) And I felt like I would personally attack myself for, for doing this and that. So let's, let's try to take that off of there as well. And just look at it as information. And that can direct us on where we need to go.Lesley Logan 35:50  That's... Yes, all the yeses, because I, you know, I was like you're talking, I was thinking like, so many of these listeners are moms and 100% if their kid was saying something hurt or burned, or they're tired, they would be like figuring out all the things (Amy: Yeah) that would go on to make sure that that was not there. But when it comes to our own bodies, we excuse it away, or "Oh, it's just because I ate that," or "Oh, I shouldn't have ate that. And I know I shouldn't eat that." And that's why it was it's like we're not taking the same care to to make sure that our bodies which are the vessels that you need to continue to be the parent to your the person you love for as long as you can as seriously and I think like we that, that we all could bit change that. And also, I hear you saying a lot of things like being kind. I mean, really kind of yourself because your body's just trying to tell you something, and it's not like you did anything and you're wrong. And I love what you said about the symptoms like think it's amazing. So currently, Amy, before we wrap this up, what are you? Right now, is there anything that you are being it till you see it like? Are you taking new steps, new leaps? Like how are you, how is this mission going for you? And what are you doing that maybe you've never done before but you're working on figuring it out?Amy Denson 37:04  Yeah. Well, I mean, I literally just yesterday found out I finished my restorative wellness practitioner certification. You guys, I can test poop now. And I'm so excited. (Lesley laughs) I know not many people would be like, "What are you talking about?" And I actually I have nothing to do with it. But so ...Lesley Logan 37:25  You can ask, you can get the test for the, (Amy: I can now...) people to send the poop to the place. (Amy: Yes) Yes.Amy Denson 37:29  So I can now offer it's called the GI-MAP. And I can now offer an MRT, which is not a food sensitivities test, it's a test to see what foods are causing inflammation in your body, which is really what we want to get that inflammation down. So with that GI-MAP, we can, we can see the good bacteria, the not so good bacteria, we can see information, we can see auto immune activity. And we can we can really pair that with that MRT test so that we can have a plan to see, "Hey, this is what's going on inside of your gut. Everybody wants to talk about gut health. Well, let's look inside your dang, gut." And this really, really will help with them. I mean, everything lives in our gut. It's our second brain. It has a ton to do with our thyroid functioning, our you know, HPA axis, all of that. So I, I I am pursuing a deep dive into really finding out what's going on for people. So we can try to get to some root causes and really see where we need to support overall function and digestively to (Lesley: So cool.) and I think that that'll just be kind of a waterfall effect for most people's symptoms. So I am so excited. I think this is going to be a game changer.Lesley Logan 38:41  I cannot (Amy: ... feeling) I cannot even wait for my husband to listen to this. And he (Amy: Yeah) like, he'll be like, "All of a sudden it's like all this stuff and health. It's great and be kind. And it's like I'm excited because we can test poop now." Like he'll laughs so hard.Amy Denson 38:54  Yeah, absolutely.Lesley Logan 38:55  Oh my gosh, this is amazing, Amy. I'm really excited for our listeners to hear this and I can't wait to hear how they take away but before we let you go we have to hear your BE IT action items after this brief message.Okay, Amy, how can people find you, follow you, get to know you more?Amy Denson 39:14  Sure. I'm on Instagram at @coachamyrae and you can email me at amyraenutrition@gmail.com The website is getting a beautiful reboost which will be done in a couple of weeks. And yeah and then I also have a podcast as well called The Chronic Athletes and really just featuring stories of resilience inspiration and all things wellness just to you know show proof that it can be done in exactly what you're doing as well. SoLesley Logan 39:44  Oh, I love that so much. Okay, well that's cool because we definitely have some some athletes that are listening and also I had a girl on I'll have to connect you, I have to look it up. She actually was a D1 athlete as well. And then she wrote a book on like, how do you like go into life ...Amy Denson 40:01  Oh my gosh, that's so needed. The transition is so yep, (Lesley: Yeah) that's so cool.Lesley Logan 40:04  I'll I'll, I'll find (Amy: Oh great) her episode and I'll connect you two because like, yeah, it's amazing. (Amy: Thank you.) So okay, before we let you go, bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us?Amy Denson 40:17  Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this and I just listened to, to a message the other day. And I think, really identifying and getting over our fear of failure. And I think really just going, just going after it, right, whether it's your health, whether it's your career, whether it's your family, whether it's just getting to know yourself, and understanding that if we are in pursuit of something with intention, there, there really is no failure, right, there's only going to be maybe learning lessons along the way. But if we're not ever pursuing anything, obviously, we're not going to be growing. But I think the pursuit is something is really what starts open more doors in your life, it starts to create that momentum. And I think if we can look at it as more of an opportunity in our pursuit, rather than the lens of failure of something, and really focus on the process, rather than the outcome, right. So a lot of people come with the goal is weight loss, which is great. But what else can we get out of the process? (Lesley: Yeah) What else can we get out of, of you taking that step forward for yourself and your health? Just just, you know, in that pursuit of intention, so I think really letting go of that, that lens of fear of failure, (Lesley: Yeah) and pursuing everything with with that lens of opportunity.Lesley Logan 41:49  Oh, I love this. I love those so much. Thank you. That another amazing and unique and I love them. Y'all, how are you use these tips in your life? Co... you're gonna tag @coachamyrae and the @be_it_pod and let us know. Post this on your socials, so we can see your takeaways, so we can shout you out, so we can share it. So we can also just see what you're up to and also what's resonating. If you're like, "I don't know how to do that." Then text this message, send this podcast to a friend. And that is not only how we get Amy's message, it's also how podcasts get heard. And the you have no idea how every single download matters. So every single one of you listen to this, it really does matter to all of us because we can't do this without you. So we want to know how you're using this in your life. Tag us both. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 43:09  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.Lesley Logan 43:20  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Brad Crowell 43:25  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 43:33  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 43:45  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Welcome back to our weekend Cabral HouseCall shows! This is where we answer our community's wellness, weight loss, and anti-aging questions to help people get back on track! Check out today's questions:  Summer: Hi doc! Thank you so much for the time and effort that you put in to serving your fellow man. I've learned so much from you and share your podcast every chance I get! Long story short, I learned about natural health a little too late in life. After years of imbalance, infertility, dis-ease, and irreversible surgery, my husband and I are hoping to adopt an infant and I've recently learned that it is not our decision whether or not the child is fully vaccinated according to the standard vac schedule. It is the state's decision until the child is 6 months old when the paperwork has all gone through. So basically I will be forced to take the baby to every ‘well child' appointment and hand them over to a well meaning, but ignorant hospital employee for all of the neurotoxins mandated by the gov. After learning this I initially decided that I can't be a party to that. I've wrestled with this for months and decided that any poor child in the system would at least be better off with us where we can try to mitigate the damage immediately and give them a healthy full life to the best of our ability. So I'm wondering what is the best way to physically prepare the baby for each visit and how to detox from these unnecessary tox injections? Thanks again! Summer   Summer: Hi Doc! In the case of adoption, since the majority of infants in the system are born addicted to drugs and alcohol, and within hours are bombarded with vacs and antibiotics, what is the best approach to help their poor little bodies find balance and healing for the first time in their young life? Also, if the birth mother has some kind of infection like an STI, would you recommend allowing the use of antibiotics especially in the eyes or can some kind of a modified natural anti-v protocol be used if all parties are in agreement? Thanks! Summer   Even: Is H pylori bad for you if left untreated? I don't have any symptoms but tested for it on stool test so I don't want to spend all this money to treat if it doesn't matter. Thank you!   Kenzie: Hi dr Cabral! I have Gilbert's syndrome and typically have no symptoms from it. I am a wine sales rep and do love wine so sometimes my job requires to drink a little. I try to limit it but when I do drink I am pretty hungover. How do I support my liver when I do? I've heard milk thistle is bad for Gilbert's   Amy: Thank you for all of work & sharing this information Dr Cabral! My son is 7.5 years old and has suffered from allergy induced asthma for the last 6 years. We thought he was doing much better, then last October he was hospitalized for 3 days due to an asthma attack. Less than 3 months later he ended up with pneumonia and not to mention all the viruses he's had between. Of course the allergist wants him on Flovent 2 times a day, Albuterol, allergy shots & daily Zyrtec but this just doesn't feel right. We've done a food sensitivity and removed those items including dairy & gluten. We met with a holistic nutritionists that did a stool test & learned he has gut dysbosis & a presence of H . Ployri. He is currently on a supplement regimen to help those issues but still doesn't seem to be improving. We have an air doctor, water filter, only use natural cleaning products & hygiene products. We eat organic & only local grass fed meat. We have removed all the toxic burdens that we know of and are at a loss of how to help him heal. I appreciate any feedback for next steps. Thank you!   Greg: Hi Dr. Cabral, I love fruit and sometimes I enjoy the crunchiness and convenience of freeze dried fruit. No additives, fruit is the only ingredient. What are your thoughts? How does it compare it to frozen or fresh   Anonymous: I want to first off thank you for all that you do! Providing valuable information for free is very altruistic and appreciated by all of your listeners. I have a few quick questions: -Do you have any recommendations for seasonal allergy support for dogs? My dog gets hot spots for a cluster of weeks 1-3 times a year and I want to be able to help support his gut health/suspected histamine response during those times. -What are your thoughts on the ayurvedic herb, Neem? I am a kapha-pitta (pretty even split) and it was recommended to me by a practitioner and has helped me greatly especially when pitta is aggravated. I was just curious as to your thoughts on it. -What are your thoughts on vegan meat alternatives (for example, Sweet Earth Benevolent Bacon)? Are there any good brands you know of that you would recommend for eating occasionally instead of having the actual processed meat? Sorry if that was too many questions for one submittal, and thank you for your guidance!   Thank you for tuning into today's Cabral HouseCall and be sure to check back tomorrow where we answer more of our community's questions!    - - - Show Notes & Resources: http://StephenCabral.com/2269 - - - Get Your Question Answered: http://StephenCabral.com/askcabral   - - - Dr. Cabral's New Book, The Rain Barrel Effect https://amzn.to/2H0W7Ge - - - Join the Community & Get Your Questions Answered: http://CabralSupportGroup.com - - -  Dr. Cabral's Most Popular At-Home Lab Tests: > Complete Minerals & Metals Test (Test for mineral imbalances & heavy metal toxicity) - - - > Complete Candida, Metabolic & Vitamins Test (Test for 75 biomarkers including yeast & bacterial gut overgrowth, as well as vitamin levels) - - - > Complete Stress, Mood & Metabolism Test (Discover your complete thyroid, adrenal, hormone, vitamin D & insulin levels) - - - > Complete Stress, Sleep & Hormones Test (Run your adrenal & hormone levels) - - - > Complete Food Sensitivity Test (Find out your hidden food sensitivities) - - - > Complete Omega-3 & Inflammation Test (Discover your levels of inflammation related to your omega-6 to omega-3 levels) - - - > View all Functional Medicine lab tests (View all Functional Medicine lab tests you can do right at home for you and your family)

Victoria: Hey everyone, it's Sensei Victoria Whitfield here, your journey partner in business, welcoming you back to episode196 of the Journeypreneur Podcast. This is your source for channeled holistic stress management techniques, guidance, inspiration and motivation to stay on your path to rapid financial ascension and massive impact as a conscious entrepreneur. The title of this podcast episode is Case Study Interview with Amy Lindner Lesser. So in this podcast episode, I'm so grateful to get to share another case study with you. So this is a special where we are featuring an amazing magical client of mine and her story of transformation in her life in business, doing strategic meditation work with me, and just to share what it's been like as well as any wisdom for those of you who are listening in and who are curious like, what what happened when you were Victoria does something happened what and this is like someone who I love deeply and who we've had a mutual working agreement, so it's not just that she's been a client of mine, but I've also been a client of hers as well in the past and we've served people together lifted each other up.    It's Amy Lindner, lesser, incredible incredible now coach, Goddess and consultant for ins you can find her@inntrospection.com as well as her podcast, the introspection podcast and by the way, it's spelled i n n inntrospection. So that's really about her supporting me and keeping industry people who are looking to be in hospitality who are in hospitality and ready to serve at the highest levels what she does, and that is actually when we first convene. How we collaborated is Amy was the original innkeeper at my my Two Day Live retreats at her in and a lot has happened and manifested over the years and so we'll we'll see what we could get into in this podcast episode but I just want to welcome you to the podcast. Amy Thank you.   Amy: Thank you so much for inviting me. So exciting to be here.   Victoria: Yeah, and you are such a love you're such a ballbuster but also like a nurturing presence. So I think you're wonderful grounded person to share for people who are in the tribe are considering like becoming part of it. You give a really beautiful perspective for those who are seeking and so with that in mind, like we're both here, not only to celebrate you in all of what you have manifested and shifted, but also we're here to serve the listeners so that they understand more of is Victoria the right person for me or should I go with somebody else like what what does this look like? - Let's talk about it! - Thanks for stopping by! While you're here, let me ask you a question: Do you ever feel like you're having a hard time sustaining the level of energy you need in order to keep up with the demands of your business? Or do you find yourself struggling to stay consistent with your self care - like meditation, movement, and nutrition - because you're so busy and distracted at work? Searching for safe spaces to celebrate your wins and work through your sh*t as an energy sensitive entrepreneur? If that resonates, know this: you are in the right place; in fact your intuition has lead you here to the gateway for your next breakthrough: GO HERE NOW.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why the most important thing a jewelry designer can invest in is high-quality photography How Amy finds the topics she writes about for JCK's “All That Glitters” blog How designers can find the story that helps them break through the crowded marketplace Who today's most exciting emerging and independent designers are How the jewelry industry changed during the pandemic, and what retailers must do to engage young consumers About Amy Elliott Amy Elliott is a writer, editor and brand storyteller who specializes in fine jewelry and fashion, and is fluent in other lifestyle categories, including food, weddings and travel. As a former staff editor at The Knot, Bridal Guide, Brides Local Magazines + Brides.com and Lucky, Amy is known for delivering high-quality editorial content across a variety of print and digital media. After recently serving as the Engagement Rings Expert for About.com, Amy joined the freelance staff of JCK as its All That Glitters columnist, while contributing articles about jewelry trends, estate and antique jewelry and gemstones to its prestigious print magazine. Amy also serves as the Fine Jewelry Expert for The Bridal Council, an industry organization composed of luxury bridal designers, retailers and media, and her byline has appeared in Gotham, Hamptons, DuJour, Martha Stewart Weddings, GoodHousekeeping.com and more. Additional Resources: Amy's Website Amy's Twitter Amy's Instagram JCK Article: Cicadas Swarm on Sienna Patti Gallery in Lenox, Mass. JCK Article: Christopher Thompson Royds' Flowers Bloom at Sienna Patti Gallery JCK Article: Look What Happens When Annoushka Gives Peridot A Go Examples of posts that reflect the intersection of jewelry with history, culture and current events: Bob Goodman Wants Jewelers To Join Him in Disrupting the Status Quo: https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/bob-goodman-jewelers-disrupting/ The Ten Thousand Things x Met Museum Collaboration Is Coming In Hot: https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/ten-thousand-things-x-met-museum/ Go “Sea” Some Serious Silver Treasures At Mystic Seaport Museum: https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/sea-as-muse-silver-seaport-museum/ New Jewelry From Rafka Koblence, Olympic Wrestler Turned Designer: https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/new-jewelry-from-rafka-koblence/ Transcript: As author of the “All That Glitters” blog for JCK, Amy Elliott has a front row seat to the jewelry industry's up-and-coming trends and designers. She's also been lucky enough to work with some of these designers, helping them refine their brands and create stories that resonate with customers. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what designers and retailers should do to stay relevant with younger consumers, how art jewelry has influenced high jewelry, and what jewelry trends to watch out for in the coming months. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: When you say you like strong, new collections, what catches your eye when somebody's presenting a new collection to you or sends you a press kit or email? Amy: Every time I'm ever interviewed for something, I always say this, but photos are so important, beautiful, beautiful photos. Whatever budget you have, use it for the photography. I love glamorous jewelry. I love high jewelry. I love glamor, big, bold, extremely extravagant jewels; from an editorial standpoint, I love them. I love to excite the senses with beautiful jewelry that makes you stop in your tracks. So, the jewels have to be beautiful, and you need to have beautiful photos to accurately portray that. It's just a strong point of view.  Boucheron came to me, and they have a whole series inspired by a cat that belonged to the Maison Boucheron early on in their life. His name is Vladimir, and it's a whole collection that takes this Persian cat with his swept fur. There's a story there; there's a heritage story. I love that. I love to take a new collection and look back at how it came to be. I love figuring out what a designer's signature is, whether they're well-established or they're just coming out. Every once in a while you'll find a newcomer with a strong point of view and you're like, “I've never seen this before. I'm so excited to tell that story.” Sharon: I think it's so important to say or to reiterate that for everybody, no matter what kind of jewelry you're selling, whether it's fine jewelry or antique jewelry. I'm thinking of some of the tradeshows when I've talked to dealers and they're like, “Oh, I don't have the money for photos.”  Amy: I don't know what to say. I've been saying it for 20 years and it's still a problem. There are some designers that are really overexposed and there are some that are underexposed. I'm always excited to discover somebody I'm not following on Instagram. How exciting! A lot of times, they're international. I'm connected with a PR firm in Paris right now. They've been calling me a lot, and it's a goldmine of designers that don't get featured a lot over here. I think I'm the only editor at JCK that covers estate and antique jewelry. I'm always covering auctions and exhibitions in that vein and all of the art fairs. I've written about Sienna Patti up in the Berkshires several times. It really is a pleasure, and anything goes. I have an action-packed calendar for the holidays. Sharon: It sounds like it, yes. Sienna Patti, I know she's in the western part of Massachusetts.  Amy: Yes, she's in the Berkshires. Sharon: She has an art jewelry gallery I'd love to get to someday. How does art jewelry fit in here? Does it catch your eye if the right photos are sent to you? Do you see it taking more of the market or having a higher profile? Amy: It's interesting. The one thing I will say, and it's so hard to speak in terms of trends when you're dealing with very expensive, high-end, collectible jewelry, but what I have noticed a little bit of is the selling of sweet sets, something that might be convertible, a multipiece set. Christopher Thompson Royds does that. You get a beautiful box, and then it's an earring that can be worn three or four different ways. Annoushka did a collaboration with Fuli Gemstones. Beautiful, bright green peridot like you've never seen. It was not really a collection; it was an eight-piece set. That is what the customer is being asked to buy into, and that feels very collector, very connoisseur, a very specific kind of angle. It's a very specific customer that is going to want to invest in jewelry that can be worn but is presented as an art object or sculpture or something to display in your home as sculpture, but then you can take it out and wear it. I see that as a direction with very, very high-end jewelry that's being shown in galleries, this notion of buying a boxed set. Sharon: When you said sweet sets, I was thinking edible sweets. That's interesting. Amy: Sets of jewels.  Sharon: There's an idea. Tell us who the emerging, independent designers are today. Who should we keep our eye on? Who's overlooked? Who's being so creative, knocking it out of the park, but you don't hear talked about? Who's collectible? Amy: I know this is a very informed and qualified audience, Sharon, so I'm sure these names are going to be familiar to many in your audience, but I think the industry has collectively embraced the work of Harwell Godfrey. Sharon: Now, that's one I don't know.  Amy: Lauren Harwell, I think she's based in LA, and she has a strong point of view. It's beautiful inlaid jewels, weighty, substantial, geometric, absolutely a strong point of view, Sharon. Sharon: I see her on Instagram a lot.  Amy: Yes, Harwell Godfrey is probably one of the strongest voices to emerge in the pandemic era. Before that it was Anna Courey, absolutely with her diamond ear cuffs. I think she set us on a course with that. Glenn Spiro is an under-the-radar but highly, highly couture jeweler. There's a book out from Assouline on him that Jill Newman wrote. I think his name is going to become more well-known among collectors. He's a private jeweler based in London, I believe, and I think we're going to be hearing more about that. Anytime there's a book or an auction, the names are elevated; the names are surfaced and get a little more traction, so I definitely would be watching Glenn Spiro. Nikos Koulis has been around for the last three or four years. He's Greek, and it's sort of neo-Art Deco, very geometric, very strong uses of color, edgy, really modern. Bea Bongiasca with her enamel and ceramic pieces— Sharon: How do you say that? Is she here? Amy: Bea. I think she's based in London but is Italian. She works at Central St. Martin's. Alice Cicolini, also British, does extremely beautiful work with enamel. I think her work is going to be really collectable in the coming years. I think she has a strong point of view. Sharon: Can I interrupt? What does that mean, a strong point of view? What does that mean to you? Amy: It means singular and inimitable.  Sharon: You know it's her when you see the piece of work. Amy: Yes. It's very singular and striking and absolutely inimitable. There's a lot of borrowing of ideas that goes on in the jewelry industry. I think the people I'm mentioning here, their voices present themselves to me as something unique. You can't replicate it; you're not going to see that show up in some form on Amazon. Maggi Simpkins, we all fell in love with her in the Brilliant and Black exhibit at Sotheby's. She did the most beautiful pink diamond ring. Everything is centered in these fan-like, feathered cocoons of gems. It's very feminine and lavish and beautiful. So, Maggi Simpkins is someone, and then Studio Renn. My editor at JCK, Victoria Gomelsky, writes for the New York Times and she did a piece on them. She really has seen everything. They are part of an exhibit that is now ongoing at Phillips that Vivienne Becker curated. I think Studio Renn is a newcomer that is going to be sticking around for a while. Finally, there's Fabio Salini, who's also part of the Vivienne Becker capsule at Phillips. Those are just a few. It changes all the time, but the pandemic era has brought incredible work from the designers in our industry, and they are just now hitting their stride. After all that time creating and dreaming and ruminating, refining their voices, cultivating their Instagram audiences, getting feedback from buyers—now they're out there in the world and ready to be embraced.  Sharon: What about pre-pandemic? Everybody's at home in their living room thinking and designing, so I could understand why it's emerging right now, but what about pre-pandemic? Do you see a big difference? Amy: Yes, the industry has modernized considerably since the before times. The biggest difference is that a mom-and-pop jeweler in the middle of country who had a website but never updated it, they've gone in there, hired a firm, hired a chat bot, completely modernized. The pandemic era forced the industry to fast-track into the digital age. That is a huge, huge difference, making it so you are available to your customers, wherever they may be, whether that's texting or someone dedicated to Instagram inquiries. A lot of this is being done on Instagram now, and that was not true in January 2020. Since jewelry emerged as a category that is a portable asset, it's not a flash in the plan; it has staying power. It's not like buying a trendy handbag, but using your discretionary income to buy jewelry became a thing and was embraced a lot of people during the pandemic as they were sparkle scrolling, as they call it, on their phones. Sharon: I haven't heard that term.  Amy: A lot of people used the time to upgrade their engagement rings and wedding bands, so the bridal industry saw a huge boost. The jewelry industry is really healthy right now, I think, in terms of sales, but what I have noticed is not everybody has a wedding band. Not everyone has a budget to upgrade to a big, giant, 20-carat eternity band, so I'm noticing a lot of brands creating price points under $1,500. They're creating little capsules, creating diffusion lines, if you will, so a customer with modest means can have that same meaningful purchase, that same, “I'm investing and treating myself to something that will last, my first diamond bracelet or my first diamond pendant.” I'm seeing more of those opportunities at the retail level. Sharon: That's interesting. In terms of the emerging designers you've mentioned, is this trickling down to the rest of us who don't have $15,000 to go out and buy a trinket tomorrow? Amy: There's definitely a spectrum. I think estate jewelry in general is so hot, and there are a gazillion ladies on Instagram. They're moving delicate, little gold charms for $200 a pop. There's so much. I hate the term low-hanging fruit, but there is so much attainable luxury out there at the regular-person level. If you're the type to spend $200 on a bunch of drinks on a Saturday night, you can easily do that and buy yourself a beautiful paper clip chain estate piece on someone's Instagram feed.  Also, even further than the art jewelry investment piece, there's a run on pink diamonds, practically, and yellow diamonds were a big story coming out of JCK. That color, yellow, that bright, hopeful, joyful feeling that yellow presents, suppliers and manufacturers—cases were filled with yellow diamond engagement rings. A lot of people are talking about a potential uptick in yellow diamond engagement ring sales, both from the rarity of the investment angle and from the pure joy of it, the feeling that it gives. Also, there's this idea that today's young woman getting engaged doesn't want anything to do with what her mother had. Any ring that remoted resembles that chunky, big, platinum, three-stone diamond ring from 1990, she wants something completely new and different feeling, and yellow diamonds fulfill that. They check that box. I have heard from some of my diamond tiara friends that people are buying very high-end and special loose, fancy-colored diamonds from an investment standpoint because it's a portable asset and they are decreasing in supply. Like I said, there's a whole spectrum of possibilities. Sharon: It's interesting you mention that diamonds are not so much in demand for young women getting engaged or getting married today. Sometimes I look at my diamond wedding ring, which is actually an upgrade from my first one, and I look at it and go, “This looks really dated.” What are you seeing in terms of what's more contemporary or modern? Amy: Here's what everyone's doing. Everyone is taking their old jewelry and up-cycling it, whether their old engagement ring, in your case, or they're taking their grandmother's engagement ring that was given to them and creating a whole new design and style. Heirloom stones are recast as something new and wearable. It could be an engagement ring; they could be breaking apart a clustered diamond pin and creating a “diamonds by the yard” style necklace. That is a huge trend right now because it also covers sustainability. You have this precious item in your possession, but it just isn't your style. You have the materials to work with a designer to make it something new you can wear and enjoy. I feel like every independent designer I speak with nowadays has taken on commissions along those lines. Entire businesses are being built around that very concept of reimagining old jewelry. Sharon: What about non-diamond wedding rings or engagement rings? Are other stones being used besides yellow diamonds?  Amy: I think we can anticipate a sapphire—I hate to say a sapphire boom because jewelry is slow and static, but blue sapphires. The Crown season four, I think, came out last winter, and it centered around Diana. There's a whole generation of young women out there that were not clued into that story, and that blue sapphire engagement ring from Garrard was back in the spotlight again, even though Kate Middleton wears it as hers now. Anyway, there's a whole generation of consumers for whom Diana's blue sapphire ring was not on their radar. Then there is a movie coming out with Kristen Stewart in the starring role called “Spencer” that will center on Diana. I think that's going to put the blue sapphire engagement ring on people's radar again. Honestly, any time the royals or once-were royals are in the news—and they are—it definitely trickles down into consumer appetite. Sharon: Amy, you've seen a lot from both sides of the desk. You've seen the big people; you've talked to people on the business side; you've talked to the designing side, the creative side, and I know you've written several books and things like that. If you had to distill it down into one book or a couple of paragraphs, what would you say are the main challenges? How would you advise people like this? Amy: I love to give advice. I'm solicited in other ways. To retailers, I would say listen to your customers and tune into the social climate. The customers are giving you information you need every time they set foot in your store. Ask them what they like, what they're into. There's an adversarial relationship, almost, between the younger consumers of today and the old-school jewelry retailer, and change is necessary. Try to learn and understand them. If they want a salt and pepper diamond ring and you think it's ugly, that's fine, but you still have to find it for them if you want to retain them as a customer. I think a willingness to change is vital; a willingness to modernize is vital on the part of the retailer. Diversity and inclusion and social justice is very important to the majority of young consumers. You can look at what Zales and Kay Jewelers and these mainstream guys are doing for clues; the same with Tiffany. You can look at what they're doing. That's all informed by serious market research that is telling them that today's younger consumer prioritizes diversity and inclusion, and they're watching companies to see if what they're doing aligns with their values. I'm certainly not the first person to say that, but it is critical; it's essential. To designers, I would say please use whatever discretionary funds you have, again, towards shooting your jewelry with a professional photographer. That is the most important thing. Don't worry about a campaign. Don't worry about hiring models. Literally just still-life photos and giant, big files are what you should be spending your money on. Stay true to your signature and try to be as authentic as possible, but also take advice. Just don't design in a vacuum. Look at what's out in the world and try to see where your point of view fits in. The market is saturated with a lot of same old, same old. How can you break through that? How can you break through the basic and come at it in a different way? It could be as simple as everybody knows alphabet charms are popular and wonderful and a new jewelry wardrobe essential, so what's your thought going to look like? How's your thought going to reflect who you are? What does the alphabet charm reflect for you, and what's the story? Did you see it on a poster for a 1960s Grateful Dead show? Did you go to an exhibit and see an illuminated manuscript? There are so many ways, I think, to get inspired and find your voice. Sharon: That's great. That's very good advice for both sides of the desk. Amy, thank you so much for being here today. Amy: Thank you, Sharon, it's a pleasure. I'm always happy to talk about jewelry and give my opinions. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you'll learn in this episode: Why the most important thing a jewelry designer can invest in is high-quality photography How Amy finds the topics she writes about for JCK's “All That Glitters” blog How designers can find the story that helps them break through the crowded marketplace Who today's most exciting emerging and independent designers are How the jewelry industry changed during the pandemic, and what retailers must do to engage young consumers About Amy Elliott Amy Elliott is a writer, editor and brand storyteller who specializes in fine jewelry and fashion, and is fluent in other lifestyle categories, including food, weddings and travel. As a former staff editor at The Knot, Bridal Guide, Brides Local Magazines + Brides.com and Lucky, Amy is known for delivering high-quality editorial content across a variety of print and digital media. After recently serving as the Engagement Rings Expert for About.com, Amy joined the freelance staff of JCK as its All That Glitters columnist, while contributing articles about jewelry trends, estate and antique jewelry and gemstones to its prestigious print magazine. Amy also serves as the Fine Jewelry Expert for The Bridal Council, an industry organization composed of luxury bridal designers, retailers and media, and her byline has appeared in Gotham, Hamptons, DuJour, Martha Stewart Weddings, GoodHousekeeping.com and more. Additional Resources: Amy's Website Amy's Twitter Amy's Instagram JCK Article: Cicadas Swarm on Sienna Patti Gallery in Lenox, Mass. JCK Article: Christopher Thompson Royds' Flowers Bloom at Sienna Patti Gallery JCK Article: Look What Happens When Annoushka Gives Peridot A Go Examples of posts that reflect the intersection of jewelry with history, culture and current events: Bob Goodman Wants Jewelers To Join Him in Disrupting the Status Quo: https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/bob-goodman-jewelers-disrupting/ The Ten Thousand Things x Met Museum Collaboration Is Coming In Hot: https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/ten-thousand-things-x-met-museum/ Go “Sea” Some Serious Silver Treasures At Mystic Seaport Museum: https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/sea-as-muse-silver-seaport-museum/ New Jewelry From Rafka Koblence, Olympic Wrestler Turned Designer: https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/new-jewelry-from-rafka-koblence/ Transcript: As author of the “All That Glitters” blog for JCK, Amy Elliott has a front row seat to the jewelry industry's up-and-coming trends and designers. She's also been lucky enough to work with some of these designers, helping them refine their brands and create stories that resonate with customers. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what designers and retailers should do to stay relevant with younger consumers, how art jewelry has influenced high jewelry, and what jewelry trends to watch out for in the coming months. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, our guest is Amy Elliott, founder of Amy Elliott Creative. She is a writer, editor and thought leader who specializes in fine jewelry and fashion which makes most of us envious. That's a great profession. She is a contributing editor to the industry publication we all know, JCK, and writes the blog “All That Glitters.” We will hear all about her jewelry journey today. Amy, welcome to the program Amy: Thank you very much for having me, Sharon. It's a pleasure to be here. Sharon: So glad to have you. I'm always envious of people who are writing about jewelry or makers and designers. That's fabulous. I have no talent in that area, so when I hear about people writing, I think, “Wow, it's great.” Tell us all about your jewelry journey. Amy: My jewelry journey is a mix of personal and professional. I'm an avid collector of jewelry. My mother is a big collector of jewelry, so from age 12 on, jewelry was always a part of my life and something that I gravitated to. As a professional, jewelry has been central to my career as a journalist and a writer since the very beginning, starting at The Knot in 1999. Sharon: The Knot being the bridal publication. Amy: Yes. At that time, it was just a website. I was there when they moved into magazines. I helped coordinate the gowns and accessories for fashion shoots and got a taste of engagement rings and diamonds, the 4Cs. That was my first introduction to jewelry on a professional level. Then I took a job at Bridal Guide Magazine, which is a leading print publication still around, privately owned. I was a senior editor there. I had many duties, but one of them was to produce a jewelry column, and that is when my education in jewelry really began. I began forming connections within the industry to educate myself on the 4Cs, pearl buying, colored gemstones. I've always been drawn to color, so that's when I became a student, if you will, of gems and jewelry and how jewelry fits into conversations about fashion trends and cultural and social current events. That was when I really got into jewelry as a métier. I was one of the founding editors of Brides local magazines, which was a Condé Nast publication of regional wedding magazines that no longer exists. Because we were short on staff, I would call in all the jewelry for our cover shoots. Even though I had a leadership role there—I was the executive editor—I also made it part of my job to call in jewels for art cover shoots. I kept that connection, and then on the side I would freelance for luxury publications. It became the thing that I liked to do the best. I loved the people in the industry. I would always learn something. No matter what I was doing or writing about, I would learn something new, and that's still true to this day. There's always something for me to learn. I discovered that jewelry is the perfect combination of earth science, history, culture, and straight-up beauty and aesthetics. It's a very gratifying topic to cover. I love the way it intersects with current events and with, as I mentioned, the fashion conversations at large. Sharon: When you went to Vassar, did you study writing? They're not known for their metalsmithing program, so did you study writing with the idea “I just want to write”? Amy: Pretty much. I was always pretty good at writing and facility with language, so I went there knowing I'd be an English major. For my thesis I wrote a creative writing thesis; it was like a little novella. I've always had a love affair with words and expression of thoughts, and I loved reading, so I knew I would do something that had to do with words and writing. I actually graduated thinking I would be a romance novelist. That was what I thought I would do. Then, of course, I started out in book publishing, and I found it really, really slow and boring, just painfully slow, and I decided perhaps that wasn't for me. Then I took a job in public relations. I really loved the marketing aspect of it and the creativity involved. Of course, it involved a lot of writing.  Eventually I decided I wanted to be on the editorial side of things once and for all. I had always written for the high school newspaper. I had done an internship at Metropolitan Home Magazine in the design department in college, so magazines were always lurking there and were always the main goal. I ended up there; it just took a couple of years for me to get there. Once I did, I knew I wanted to work for a women's magazine. I love things that would fall under the heading of a women's magazine, relationships, fashion. The wedding magazines I worked at were a great fit for me because it's pure romance and fantasy and big, beautiful ball gowns and fancy parties. It was a good fit for me, and I was able to take that and home in on jewelry as a particular focus elsewhere in my career after those first years.  I will say Vassar is known for its art history program. I was not a star art history pupil by any means, but I took many classes there. I find myself leaning on those skills the most as a jewelry writer, looking closely at an object, peeling back the layers and trying to understand what the artist or jeweler is trying to say through jewelry, much like you would with a painting from the Renaissance. So, I am grateful for that tutelage because I found myself drawing on it often, even though I was definitely a B- student in art history. Sharon: It seems to me if you're not going to be a maker, if you're not going to be a metalsmith or a goldsmith or if you're not going to be selling behind the counter, it seems like art history is a fabulous foundation for jewelry in terms of the skills you draw on. Amy: Absolutely. Historical narratives and every historical event that's going on in the world can be—you can look at jewelry from the past and tie it into something that was going on, whether it was the discovery of platinum or the discovery of diamonds in South Africa. It all intersects so beautifully. Vassar taught me to think critically; it taught me how to express myself, to develop a style of writing that I think is still present in my writing today. I always try to get a little lyricism in there. A good liberal arts foundation took me into the world of magazines and eventually digital publishing. I stayed with Condé Nast for a long time. Then I went to Lucky Magazine and was on staff there for a little over a year and a half. I was exposed to fine jewelry on a more fashion level, like the kind cool girls would wear, gold and diamond jewelry that wasn't big jewels by Oscar Heyman. It was a different category, but still within that universe. That was a great education, to look at fine jewelry in a fashion context. They had layoffs in 2012 and I was forced to strike out on my own, but I've been freelance ever since, doing a mix of copywriting for fashion brands and writing for various publications. I've been writing for JCK since 2016. Sharon: Wow! Amy, we want to hear more about that, but just a couple of things. First, thank you to our subscribers. I want to thank everybody who's gotten in contact with me with their suggestions. I love to get them, so please email me at Sharon@ArtsandJewelry.com or DM me @ArtsandJewelry. Also a big shoutout to Kimberly Klosterman, whose jewelry is featured in the exhibit “Simply Brilliant: Jewelry of the 60s and 70s” at the Cincinnati Art Museum. It's on now through February 6. You can listen to our interview with Kimberly on podcast number 133. Now, back to our interview with Amy. Amy, what I like about what you said—you expressed it very well—is the intersection of jewelry with current events and history. I know I always have difficulty explaining to people why I'm interested in jewelry or jewelry history. They think, “Oh, you like big diamonds,” and it's hard to explain how it tells you so much about the period. Amy: Yes, I think acknowledging how global our industry is and learning about different cultures has been so critical to becoming fluent in this world and the gemstones that come from Afghanistan or Ethiopia or Mozambique. Just learning about the sapphires from Sri Lanka—it's so global and all-encompassing. I read the Cartier book, and their story is so fascinating. I am interested particularly in World War II and how that impacted the jewelry industry, how Susan Beltran saved the business of her lover, how the events of World War II Germany impacted Paris and the jewelers there, how the Cartiers would do the birds in the cage and all that stuff. I think you can look at historic jewels and see reflected back at you current events and moments in our history. Sharon: Definitely. I imagine when you look at something, it's not just seeing the jewel, but you're seeing the whole background behind it, how it sits within that context, that nest of history with World War II and platinum. It's an eye into the world. Amy: Even someone like Judith Leiber, who fled Hungary during wartime and became this amazing designer of handbags in New York. So many of the jewelers that are leaders and pillars of our industry came here because of the pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe. It really does intersect with what was happening in the world. The jewelry industry is a microcosm of all those events, even going to back to the Silk Road and Mesopotamia and the Armenians and the Ottoman Empire. It is a rich tapestry of moments. Historic jewels in particular can give you insight, not just into an artist's vision, but into a moment of time. Sharon: I didn't know that about Judith Leiber; that's interesting. You left Lucky Magazine and opened your own shop. You do a lot of writing and editing. How do the graphics also play into it? Do you art direct? If clients come to you and say, “I need a brochure,” I assume you're doing all the copy and editing, but do they bring you the photos? How does that work? Amy: My background in magazines definitely has given me a pretty robust skillset in terms of working with graphic designers and art directors, conveying ideas and working with them to solve problems. You do emerge with a sense of the visuals, and a taste level is part of it when you're covering fashion and jewelry and things related to style. So yes, I think as a copywriter, one of the things I bring to the table is that I will be able to advise you on the quality of your photos and your look book on the crops, on the model even. Also there's the hierarchy of information; that's definitely a form of direction. It's not very glamorous, but I'm good at understanding how things should be stacked and arranged on a page in terms of hierarchy of messaging. I do have a lot of opinions, I guess, about what looks good and what doesn't. If that feedback is welcome, I'm always happy to share it. Sometimes a client will send me an email for review, and I know they just want to get it out, but I'm like, “No, this is spelled wrong, and the headline should be this, and this needs to go there,” and I'll mock it up on the screen as to where things should go. The best editors and writers, especially when you're dealing with jewelry and fashion and beautiful objects, you have to have a strong sense of the visual. Sharon: I know sometimes clients push back, but I assume they come to you because they want your opinion or they'd do it themselves, right? Amy: Yes. My favorite clients to work with are emerging designers who are just getting out there. They have so many ideas, so many stories to tell, and I help them refine their vision, refine their voice. For many of them, it's the first time they're coming to market, and I can help them present themselves in a professional way that will be compelling to buyers and to media. Sharon: What type of issues are potential clients coming to you for? Is there an overarching—problem might not be the right word—but something you see, a common thread through what they're asking? Amy: There are a number of things. One could be a complicated concept that needs to be explained, something technical like the meteorite that's used in a wedding ring. “We have all this raw material from our supplier. How do we make that customer-facing? How do we make that dense language more lively and easier to digest?” Sometimes it's collection naming. “Here's my collection. Here are the pieces. Can you give them a name? Can you help name this product?” Sometimes it's, “We want to craft a story around this,” and I'm able to come at it with, “I know what the story is here. We've got to shape you to be able to present that story to the world, whether it's a buyer or an editor.”  Usually there is some sort of a concept that is involved; it just hasn't been refined and it's not adjustable. They're so focused on the work and the design vocabulary, they need someone to come in and look at it holistically and figure out how they're going to package this as an overarching idea. Sometimes it's as simple as, “I need to write a letter. These are the things I want to get across to buyers or new accounts or an invitation to an event.” I can take these objectives, these imperatives, and spin them into something compelling and customer-facing and fun to read. It's a mix of imaginative work and down-and-dirty, let me take this corporate document and finesse it and make it more lively and more like something a consumer would want to read on a website. Sharon: They must be so appreciative. Their work may be beautiful, but they have to condense it to say what they are trying to express and get that across to somebody who may not know the language, so somebody wants to pick it up and say, “Oh, that's really interesting.” Amy: Storytelling is a big buzzword right now in the industry, but it's so important. The marketplace is so crowded, and it's not enough to be like, “I have a new collection of stacking rings,” or “I've expanded these rings to include a sapphire version.” You have to come up with some sort of a story to draw in an audience, and then you can use that story on all of your touchpoints, from social media to your email blasts to a landing page on your website. There are a host of jewelry professionals out there that can advise in different ways, to help you get into stores, to help you with specific branding, refining your collection from a merchandising standpoint. There are so many professionals out there that specialize in that, but I think what I bring to the table is knowledge of the industry and a facility with language. It's almost like I'm a mouthpiece for the designer or the corporate brand and a conduit to the consumers' headspace. Sharon: It sounds like a real talent in the areas where there are gaps in what a designer and retailer/manufacturer needs. Telling the story may be a buzzword, but it's words, and you have to use the right words. Tell us about the JCK. You write the blog “All That Glitters,” which is very glittery. It's very attractive. Tell us about it. Amy: Thanks. I was JCK's center for style-related content. Obviously, there's no shortage of breaking news and hard business news, because JCK's first and foremost a serious business publication. Sharon: With the jewelry industry. Amy: With the jewelry industry. I've evolved the blog to be—my favorite things to cover are new collections. I like to interview designers about inspirations. I like to show a broad range of photos from the collection. A lot of it is just showing collections that I love. Maybe I've seen them at Fashion Week; maybe I saw them at the JCK shows or at appointments in the city; maybe I saw something on Instagram. I love to cover design collaborations. Those are one of my favorites things to cover: how two minds can come together to create a new product, like when Suzanne Kalan partnered with Jonathan Adler to do a line of trinket trays. I am interested in cultural events. I like to cover museum exhibits. I covered the Beautiful Creatures exhibit at the Natural History Museum. Because I live in Connecticut, I was able to make it up to Mystic Seaport. They have a beautiful collection of silver trophies by all the best makers, from Tiffany to Shreve, Crump & Low and Gorham. I was able to go up there and see that collection.  It's a blog about culture. It's a blog about things I love. I've written about TV shows that have to do with jewelry. I like the title “All That Glitters” because it gives me a lot of leeway in terms of what I can cover. I've written about writing instruments. Fabergé did a collaboration with whiskey brands and I wrote about that. I try to leave it open, but if there's a strong, new, exciting collection, especially from a high jewelry brand—I'm going to be writing something on one from David Webb coming up. They just released a new collection called Asheville, inspired by his hometown. I like to do a deep dive into a designer story or to show a new collection. My colleague, Brittany Siminitz, does beautiful curations. Sometimes I'll do curations, meaning a roundup of beautiful products that correspond to an overarching theme. I love to do those, but I am happiest when designers come to me with a new collection and something that people haven't seen before. I particularly love discovering new voices and emerging designers that haven't been featured in the press before, so I can be that first introduction.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why Amy onboards new law firms with a day of learning, and why familiarity with the business is crucial for long-term relationships with law firms  Why it is beneficial to have parallel relationships between the level of law firm associates and the level of in-house counsel Why law firms that are passed over by in-house counsel in the first round shouldn't give up on forging a relationship How junior attorneys can build relationships with in-house counsel without overstepping boundaries Why diversity and inclusion is more than just a buzzword About Amy Yeung Amy Yeung is General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer, for Lotame, the world's leading unstacked data solutions company. Recognized as an expert in digital data and privacy, Yeung was previously Deputy General Counsel at Comscore, which she successfully helped guide through a corporate crisis. She also served as Vice President of Legal at Dataminr and Assistant General Counsel for ZeniMax. Yeung earned a J.D. from Duke University School of Law and a B.A. in political science from the University of Chicago. Additional resources: Amy Yeung's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-yeung-0518883/ Lotame - Website: https://www.lotame.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LotameSolutions LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lotame/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/lotame Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast The relationship between law firms and in-house counsel is complex, but it boils down to one thing: how well each party understands the other. That's a lesson Amy Yeung, General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer at Lotame, has learned all too well during her time as in-house counsel. She joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about how she selects the law firms she works with, how junior attorneys can prepare for partnership, and why diversity and inclusion isn't just a fad. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Amy Yeung, General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer at Lotame Data Management. The Lotame Data Management platform is a data collection application that gathers and unifies audience data from a plethora of sources such as blogs and websites as well as offline information. Today, we'll hear more about that as well as how Amy evaluates and selects outside counsel. Amy, welcome to the program. Amy: Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here. Sharon: Thank you so much. It's great for you to talk with us. Give us an overview of your career path. You're quite accomplished. Amy: You've very kind and generous, thank you. I went to law school, and from that, I clerked in the Delaware Court of Chancery under Vice-Chancellor Parsons, which was a phenomenal experience and gave me a chance to look at corporate law and corporate law litigation. After that, I joined the wonderful firm of Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr, where I was in a very broad securities group that included regulatory litigation enforcement as well as some corporate work. It was from that point in time that I took, let's call it, an early detour.  These days it's a little different, but at that time, going in-house was not expected, certainly not at those mid-level years. I spent nearly seven years at my first in-house counsel role. They were a publisher, and I helped them expand it for print and software across to a global platform. It was a phenomenal experience. I really enjoyed it. I think for all the lawyers and law firm individuals in the audience, it was a great way to get your chops and have an opportunity to work through a variety of issues, for me, squarely in the software and data space. During that time, I became a subject matter expert in data privacy and product counsel, which I mentioned. These days it has a name and phrase; back then, not so much. I also gained understanding of hardware, software, intellectual property and a lot of those issues. It's from that experience that I became general counsel for the then-unicorn in New York. There was another company that had already gone public, and this company, Dataminr, focused on social media and big data in the software and data space. In that regard, I helped them scale and easily pivot in significant ways. My work for Dataminr included things like getting certain tweets better geolocated and specific to subject matter that is an interest and for organizations like, say, the Orlando Pulse nightclub.  At that point in time, when there was a shooting in a gay nightclub, it provided media opportunities, like there were eyeballs inside the club just because of the number of people that were tweeting about the situation indoors. It really has made and continues to make such an impact on how we think about tweets, how tweets can be used in the broader public policy and global arena. These days when we get news, there's a reason why there are now tweets incorporated in stories about Pulse. Otherwise a journalist would have to go and search for them instead of tweets just being provided and shared by somebody.  From there, I went to Comscore, which was going through a corporate crisis. Two public companies merged, and then weeks later, an SEC investigation was announced for corporate recognition. So, I was comprehensively redoing business development with clients and redoing data privacy in light of the impending GDPR requirements. They were going through a lot of financial and other considerations. Where I am today is Lotame, which is still in the space which focuses on advertising technology, and in that regard, continues to do a lot of data collection. I continue to stay in software and data, but I'm particularly in this area. I help companies and organizations get to audiences and bridge the gap and encourage the sale of the products that we sell.  Sharon: It seems like an amazing application and platform, to be able to gather all this data from different sources and build a picture of who you're targeting or where they are. Amy: That's absolutely right. Certainly, many of the companies I've been involved with have a component of that. At ZeniMax, they started, frankly, in the digital age and did digital advertising when very few people were focused on that, not knowing, of course, that there would be a big pivot in the coming years. They do have a platform to be able to incorporate advertising data themselves. Dataminr had a slightly different use scenario, especially when it comes to where the true value is in the company, but being familiar with how one uses those platforms to derive those insights is very much fundamental to Comscore.  What we want to focus on, which is to your point, Sharon, is really understanding who your audience is, trying to drill down and get that full picture. Also, as we all realize, we have a laptop for work; we have a different laptop for personal use; there's a phone. What we do on each of these devices is very different, and it's also very different from how we watch TV or use Roku. These days, as I know we all realize as marketers ourselves, are trying to get that singular picture, which is very complex. We're not trying to bombard you across all the platforms, in most instances anyway. We're trying to get a personal product directed to you when you're using your personal device, as compared to a work-related product when you're using a work-related device. Sharon: It sounds like as you've been building your career, you've had to learn about marketing, or get more into marketing. How has that been for you, as somebody who didn't study that in school? All lawyers have to be marketers, yes, but— Amy: That's absolutely right. You're so on point. I'll say one thing here is knowing what your core products are at the heart. I serve as strategic advisor to these companies. Of course, there are certain areas in the law, in data privacy, in intellectual property, that could put me in a much larger position or disproportionate position to be able to serve as a strategic advisor as the companies themselves pivot what they're trying to sell. That's certainly one of the key areas, but to your point, other things I didn't study in school include the business of the business itself, as well as the marketing. I am grateful to have individuals who are generous with their time to help me understand what they do, which gives me the opportunity to think about how I can service them and service their needs. Also, frankly, I'm a consumer just like everybody else. There are lots of things I like buying. In that vein, perhaps different from some of the other areas of my practice, it is intuitively helpful to have those analogies, because I'm a consumer just like anybody and everybody else. Keeping my finger on the pulse of how marketing turns and what those initiatives are helps me round out the picture, which in turn helps me become the best strategic advisor I can be. Sharon: I would imagine that when you're evaluating outside counsel, or when a lawyer's trying to get to know you, that demonstrating that understanding would be very important to you. Amy: It's essential for every company I work with. I will say that, especially when it comes to law firms, one of my expectations—and I know this is not typical, although perhaps it may not be far off the standard—is that I always expect our new law firms to onboard with a day of learning with us. I say that because I have been counseling disruptive companies across all life cycles, so many of these companies are going through a significant change. It's not standard work, and I'm not looking for a standard law firm; I'm looking a partner in the long run. In order for you to best serve me, and for me to be able to best serve my clients, it means understanding what the business does, understanding where the asks are coming from in the big picture. It also relates to the level of risk, because in each of these companies there has been a different risk. There have been different short-term and long-term risks that we know and need to balance. That is the explanation to how there have been some wonderfully successful law firms I've worked with in the past. I think we all recognize and agree that the legal answer needs to be massaged in shape for the client, but it's really difficult, I think, for the law firms and partners and teams to give unqualified advice if you don't have familiarity with the types of choices and operational work the company is going through. Some of that is default. For a large, multinational public company, you can probably guess what that risk is going to be, or for a public company in a corporate turnaround. That probably gives you some ideas you can guess at, but there's still a wide variety. The day of learning is very much an investment with both parties, both the partners and anticipated staff on my side, individuals and executive leadership—who also have busy days—to share in terms of understanding what everybody does.  Sharon: When you select outside counsel, are you looking at it for your clients or for your company, or for both? Who are you choosing for? It sounds like you're advising your clients as to who would be a good firm to talk to. Amy: Yeah, there's a little bit of that. Obviously, when I say client, I mean the people in the company I service. Some of it's a little bit of both of those pockets. As general counsel, I'm looking at their whole company's profile and what the risk is. There's certainly a level of understanding what we can do on the legal side to make sure we've got a well-rounded team, which includes reaching out to outside counsel and drawing the line between what's in and out based on experiences with what the company's gone through and the current legal team. After that, selecting a law firm and understanding their expertise and niche is, perhaps to your quite astute point, Sharon, a little bit of magic as well as a science, in that you are looking for the right fit, the right team with the leader, what their fundamental goals and purposes are. That can significantly narrow or generally broaden the number of law firms that are in that pipeline. I will say for me, the best practice, both normatively as well as philosophically, is that I will ask for multiple RFPs from different law firms. I want to give everybody a shot. I also want to give many individuals an opportunity to get to know us, because even if this time it doesn't work out, it still gives us exposure and a learning opportunity. I think fundamentally, that's important. Sharon: Have you ever gone back to a firm when you initially selected a different firm, but the other firm stuck in your mind? Something came up and you went back to them and said, “This would be great for you,” or “I'd like to work with you on this.” Amy: Yeah, I think that goes along with the philosophical approach of a long-term partner. It doesn't make sense, in my opinion, to spend that much time thinking about an isolated circumstance. I think there's a lot to be learned. Frankly, I wouldn't be doing an RFP if the team wouldn't be learning something new. To your point, there are several times I can think of off the top of my mind. I might not have any doubt, but either we learn something new, or, frankly, it comes down to the way the firm continues to build and maintain their relationship. They've already given more reason to take a look at them a second time. Sharon: How have they continued to build? How would you suggest somebody continue to build on that initial contact of presenting an RFP? How do they build and maintain that relationship and demonstrate that they would be the firm for you the next time around? Amy: There are any number of ways a firm can do this. I'm thinking about discrete examples that can be useful. I think it's fair to say we all get hundreds of emails a day, so adding a line to a newsletter, while it may be on point, doesn't actually help me winnow down what's useful. There are a number of partners, for example—and not even partners, associates—who will add another line or two as they forward, to say specifically, “Take a look at X, because I think X would be applicable.” By definition, if they catch my eye, it gives me the opportunity to examine a lending opportunity and say, “Yes, that was very much on point,” or “No, it wasn't.” It's a next step which in and of itself I see as a learning opportunity.  There are events, for example. I know it is frequent that people want to send those along. It's often useful for the contextualization, such as, “This event might be of use in particular. When we talked about X, I thought the panel at Y would be really useful to you.” Again, it's an opportunity to learn more about us. It's an opportunity for them to respond and think about somebody on the team, if not myself, to join. There are a number of conferences and events that law firms have and host. You can see where I'm going with this item. Knowledge about that for in-house counsel, especially when compared to my law firm experience, resources are far fewer. Being able to quantify that, especially in a discrete way for my team, is helpful. We've all got so many virtual panels right now, so having a virtual panel, a virtual conference alone, is not necessarily going to move the needle. But again, being tactful about it paves the way for that type of relationship, because I know you're not going to inundate me; I know you're already working hard to understand the business in different ways. That is a distinguishing factor, in my opinion, with a number of law firms and individuals who reach out.  Sharon: I think it's important for lawyers and marketers to hear the fact that you do consider firms you passed over the first time around. I'm sure a lot of lawyers say, “Well, that was a waste of time,” and put the RFP on the shelf and never look at it or think about you or your needs again, whereas it sounds like it would be worth it for them to build on what they've already invested. Amy: I think that's right.  Sharon: You've been involved in several attorney organizations. Can you tell us about which ones, attorney or personal, that have been most beneficial? Maybe you've identified lawyers there at times because you've gotten to know them. Amy: I'll say as somebody who builds teams, I'm always on the lookout. When I think back to any of the organizations where I haven't otherwise met someone connected with somebody or hired in some capacity—I'm not sure I can think of one where I haven't had that situation. As we all know, talent comes in all shapes and forms, so it's my role to keep my eyes open in that regard. To your first question, Sharon, I certainly had a wonderful and many years with the D.C. Bar and the ADA, both being elected in initial polls with the D.C. Bar as well as some of those roles overlapping with the American Bar Association. I found that organization to be and continues to be wonderful and a great source of broad legal networking and the like. It was great, especially for me in understanding contextually the variety of things that somebody, even in the business law section or another section, could still be involved in. With that said, since then, I've also been very active and involved in other groups, which might arguably be a little smaller in nature. That includes, for example, NAPABA and other voluntary bar organizations. Sharon: NAPABA? I'm not familiar with that one.  Amy: Sure. NAPABA is the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association. It's a great group of individuals. Ultimately, we are not only serving our leadership on the local level with NAPABA D.C., but also on the national level, culminating with my last role as the Chair of Diversity and Inclusion in that committee. I am also serving in leadership as the char elect for the Association of Corporate Counsel, ACC. It provides an opportunity for in-house counsel to come together and share their experiences in a way that, as some would say, avoids the law firm “sharks in water” situation and permits individuals to speak frankly about their experiences. I think the ACC, under this leadership, does a wonderful job of being able to balance that. We all realize it's a full life cycle in terms of needs between companies as well as law firms and law organizations in order for all of us to be successful in our careers. That's been a wonderful set of experiences with law.  Sharon: You mentioned diversity and inclusion. Has that grown in importance? Have you ever experienced that a law firm has brought in a team to meet you, and they had their token Asian, let's say, or their token ethnicity to prove diversity and inclusion? How has that been for you? Amy: I have to say it's been a bumpy road. I'd like to think the issue is much more prominent on its face, and in particular much deeper and richer conversations are happening. To your point, I do still have experiences where individuals will pull together a team and think that's the right message to send to me, but ultimately that message is short-lived and doesn't actually prove itself out in the way the work is done and the way in which the individuals themselves are being paid and compensated. Those are issues and concerns that I have always been of the mind to note. I would be surprised if there's any in-house counsel in a position to hire where that isn't a competitive factor. That's the case, at least for me, in software data, because all of my companies and teams have been global in nature. The reason for that is because from my perspective, it is impossible for me in my role to be able provide the appropriate guidance to a company that has so many points of view. So, I need my teams, whether or not they're inside the four walls of the company, to be able to provide the creative guidance and global perspective in order to advise the business. If they're not able to do that, I'm not doing my job, and if I'm not doing my job, you know what needs to happen.  I've had a lot of success in that. Maybe one can say, “Well, she's in software; she's in data and a lot of things.” I admit that things like pivots of a company, disruptive business ideas, these are all traits that can only encourage a diverse team to be able to come up with creative solutions. I also admit that, at least for a while there, this industry probably entertains larger, greater ideas in that scenario than perhaps a traditional company, but you can't tell me, especially in the days of Covid, that there isn't a company that isn't otherwise struggling for better places broadly in our ecosystem. If I don't have these few clients, I simply don't do enough of a good job for my company. My team is encouraged to think outside of the box, in alignment with the legal requirements of what needs to happen. Where we end up ultimately is another thing, but I want to make sure my team is supportive of the company leads, and in order to do that, we need global views, whether or not that's in data privacy, whether or not that's in intellectual property. We need to be able to see and peer around the corner. The only way we are able to do that is when there are fresh perspectives and multiple perspectives, when we discuss and debate, and then ultimately align with the course of action that comes with the next steps.  Sharon: Do you see things outside of your firm? Do you see things changing in the world of diversity and inclusion, things that are going to stick? Maybe people are saying, “Well, that's the buzzword of today,” like Earth Day was the buzzword decades ago and then it popped up again. At least, that's my interpretation. Amy: Yeah, it's a great question, Sharon, and I thank you for asking it, because it's a very important topic. I mentioned earlier that the conversations these days are richer. By that, I not only mean total conversations and the transparency with which these conversations happen, but also in terms of the metrics that I and a number of other general counsel and chief legal officers expect. We anticipate a more fulsome picture, especially from law firms, in their data. I was just having a conversation last week with a global law firm. They had identified mutual stacks in terms of initial hiring and the like. We all know and recognize that we need to invite diversity of all sorts. It continues to be a work in progress, but is perhaps the easiest of all of the steps to achieve, to be able to then build that in your attention and create that pipeline is something I think all companies or organizations continue to struggle with. This is what I would expect to be the next steps in this dialogue. How has your firm retained diverse individuals moving up? How has your firm been able to elevate? I've worked with partners in law firms to be able to ensure that potential elevations are getting the substantive work that puts individuals in a position to be partner ready. We need that. That, to me, is a full cycle of success for all lawyers. That is the business model that I not only believe in, but I actually put the investment in. That is how this conversation is richer, but we need more people in the conversation, and we need more transparency with respect to how we can advance the profession overall. Sharon: What would your advice be to emerging attorneys or those that want to rise up the ladder, who don't have the sponsorship or patronage you're talking about? I think it's fabulous to be able to say to a partner, “This is a person we need to groom.” How would you suggest that lawyers pierce the corporate veil, in a sense, to get to you? That's my vision of it. Amy: Yeah, that's a great question. I'll add to your good observations what I've described as a dialogue. It happens over the course of a few years, so it's not just me who might say, “You've got an excellent attorney for these following reasons.” It's a way for us to get that full cycle of improving the next generation of attorneys coming in, which is what I hope all juniors in our space want to do. With that said, there are a number of things a junior attorney can do to put themselves on the radar. I know from a law firm perspective, the one thing that is often said is do the best you can do. Always say yes, all of those good things that I don't need to go over in our interview today. But certainly make a mark on the people for whom you work.  These days, more junior attorneys are getting mentorship with their counterparts, which is amazing and certainly didn't exist when I was on the law firm side or when we went to in-house counsel. I think there are more people on the in-house counsel side that create the opportunity for those parallels. I think that would be another thing I would tell junior attorneys to ask, which is to say—at least in my book, I make sure all of my attorneys start getting early exposure with law firm colleagues. It's important not only to understand the cadence and the business model, but also to build upon the ways in which one can create a relationship. If I'm expecting you on my side, that's an opportunity attorneys can ask for on the other side, which is to say, “Look, I'm not going to bill for my time, but it goes without saying there cannot always be a fly on the wall. I'd love to hear that early exposure about the way in which you, senior counsel or partner, are able to manage the client. Help me understand the political dynamic on this case. What's the risk profile?” Being curious and thoughtful about the group picture is something that a decade ago, I don't know that law firms were necessarily thinking about in terms of giving the right answer. That's a terrible generalization. I don't mean it to be quite literal, but what I mean to say is that these days, there are so many more opportunities. It's so much better for senior attorneys to bring in their junior attorneys to have that experience and start giving attorneys earlier opportunities for that exposure to be thinking about as they rise. I'm pretty positive that a lot of junior law firm attorneys I speak with or mentor are looking for that. It's a huge benefit to them in so many different ways.  Sharon: I could see how it would be a tremendous benefit in having the people within the firm know who you are and what you can do, but I'm saying, “Hey, I don't want to wait around for that,” or “Yes, I do that, but I want to get to know you better,” or “I want you to see what I'm learning here.” Basically, how do I get to you without having to wait for the partner to make the introduction or do whatever he or she has to do to get me to you? What's the best way to do that? Speak at conferences? Publish? What are you looking at?  Amy: That's a really great question. Let me see if I can't break it down, because you raise what is, at the essence, a complication of human dynamics. I don't mean that to be so philosophical, but I think that's true, because there's no one way that's going to catch my eye or catch somebody's eye. When you accurately identify, for example, writing an article, that is bound to catch somebody's eye. I don't know if it's going to catch my eye or somebody else's, but you got to put yourself out there. That's the number one rule in marketing, they say. You can't get the business unless you're at least trying to do that. There is some nuance in the other suggestions I raised, which is to say I'm not sure. I wouldn't necessary be advocating for a junior attorney who's on an account to directly reach out to the general counsel without having connected with the relationship partner. Sharon: I understand, but what if the relationship partner—if they don't feel threatened, let's say—says to the junior attorney, “You've got to figure out how we're going to build this relationship with Amy. We have our foot in the door. Where do we go from here? I'm too busy to think about it. You come up with a plan.” What would you say? What would your advice be? You've given us ideas, but how would you help advise him to expand the relationship? Amy: For a junior attorney? Sharon: To maybe go to the relationship partner or one of the partners and say, “Hey, I have Amy's ear. Let's do something with it.” Amy: Yeah, it's a great question. I would hope that all junior attorneys are thinking about how the state of relationship is more than just doing the work and thinking about the bigger picture. Maybe one way I would respond to this—again, this really does boil down to human relations—is that if this individual is involved in other types of organizations, such as the voluntary bar, it's a good opportunity. To answer your question, Sharon, which I think gets to the heart of human dynamics, I would hope that every junior attorney is thinking more broadly than just, “Let me do the work that's being asked of me,” and they are learning more about the client; they're thinking about the business relationship and, in particular for those who want to help develop the business, are taking all of the experiences they're learning from in each of their client matters and understanding where the core of that relationship is. That relationship can change quite drastically, whether it's a core corporate client of the law firm versus somebody who's smaller.  To answer your question more specifically how a junior attorney might be able to help expand, I think this is also where things like bar associations or just your knowledge on the street might be helpful. There might be something that comes in over email that they can forward on to the partner to say, “Hey, the law firm is doing this, and I think it would be great to forward for X client. I'm happy to do it unless you prefer to do it.” This is also where having parallel relationships between the level of the law firm associate and the level of in-house counsel can be helpful, because now you're not having to go up and down the ladder, so to speak, but rather you can just forward that on to the mid-level, and it's probably something you are both interested in, in terms of expertise or takeaways. Another way to do it is if you are learning about something yourself, bullet point three to five takeaways and share them with the partner for the panel. The recording might be of interest to the associates you're generally working with at that company, or it could be something you send directly to your midlevel. Again, if it's something new you've learned, I suspect it might be something your counterpart in the company might also be interested in, or at least it's an opportunity for you guys to be able to synch on knowledge. Sharon: I think that's wise. What you said is almost the essence of this whole conversation. First of all, I want to make it clear: I'm not advocating for anybody to go jump over their senior professional, their partner, whoever, even though I've seen that. The relationship doesn't end up very well. That's not what I'm advocating for. I do think what you're talking about is level-to-level, in a sense that the rising professional, the rising outside in private practice, if they are building that relationship with somebody around the same level in-house, how that could work in the long run very well, if one assumes they are providing value. Maybe I'm naïve, but some of the things you're talking about, I don't have to bring them up because—doesn't everybody say, “O.K., the bottom line is you've got to do good work, and you got to let everybody else know you're doing that good work”? I guess I skip over that because, to me, it's a given. Maybe it isn't. Amy: No, I wish it were a given. It wasn't in my life. I'm still struggling with that. I think studies show, actually, that is not a given with cultural considerations. Some assume that the work speaks for itself, so it is a plea to them to acknowledge, in a tactful way, what you're doing and elevate that. That's an art, and we all have to practice it. To your point, I'd love to think it's a given, but I don't think it is. Doing good work is also contextualized. I've said for many years, for myself as well as from others when listening to them identify, that you have to do the best work you can do, but what exactly does that mean? I think in this day and age, what it means to do good work is to understand what your fundamental client needs are, and that oftentimes isn't information you necessarily get from the first round. You have to be proactive about understanding that. That goes not just for the junior attorneys, but also for the relationship partners and the individuals who are working on the matters. Sharon: I think that's very sound advice, sound thoughts. We could have a whole conversation about what doing good work is. Amy: We certainly could. Sharon: Amy, thank you so much for being here today. Amy: Thank you so much. I really appreciate the invitation, Sharon.

About Amy Arambulo NegretteWith over ten years industry experience, Amy Arambulo Negrette has built web applications for a variety of industries including Yahoo!, Fantasy Sports, and NASA Ames Research Center. One of her projects modernized two legacy systems impacting the entire research center and won her a Certificate of Excellence from the Ames Contractor Council. She has built APIs for enterprise clients for cloud consulting firms and led a team of Cloud Software Engineers. Currently, she works as a Cloud Economist at the Duckbill Group doing bill analyses and leading cost optimization projects. Amy has survived acquisitions, layoffs, and balancing life with two small children.Website: www.amy-codes.comTwitter: @nerdypawsLinkedin: linkedin.com/in/amycodesWatch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/xc2rkR5VCxoThis episode sponsored by CBT Nuggets and Lumigo.TranscriptJeremy: Hi everyone, I'm Jeremy Daly, and this is Serverless Chats. Today, I'm joined by Amy Arambulo Negrette. Hey, Amy thanks for joining me.Amy: Thank you, glad to be here.Jeremy: You are a Cloud Economist at the Duckbill Group, so I'd love it if you could tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and your background and what you do at the Duckbill Group.Amy: Sure thing. I used to be an application developer, I did a bunch of AWS stuff for a while, and now at the Duckbill Group, a cloud economist is someone who goes through cost explorer and your usage report and tries to figure out where you're spending too much money and how the best to help you. It is the best-known use of a small skill I have, which is about being able to dig through someone's receipts and find out what their story is.Jeremy: Sounds like a forensic accountant, maybe forensic cloud economist or something to that effect.Amy: Yep. That's basically what we do.Jeremy: Well, I'm super excited to have you here. First of all, I have to ask this question, I've known Corey for quite some time, and I can imagine that working with him is either amazing or an absolute nightmare. I'm just curious, which one is it?Amy: It is not my job to control Corey, so it's great. He's great to talk to. He really is fully engaged in any conversation you have with him. You've talked to him before, I'm sure you know that. He loves knowing what other people think on things, which I think is a really healthy attitude to have.Jeremy: I totally agree, and hopefully he will subtweet this episode. Anyways, getting into this episode, one of the things that I've noticed that you've done quite a bit, is you create technical content. I've seen a lot of the talks that you've given, and I think that's something that you've done such a great job of not only coming up with content and making content interesting.Sometimes when you put together technical content, it's not super exciting. But you have a very good way of taking that technical content and making it interesting. But then also, following up with it. You have this series of talks where you started talking about managing FaaS, and then you went to the whole frenemies thing with Fargate versus Lambda. Now we're talking about, I think the latest one you did was about Lambda and the container support within Lambda. Maybe we can just go back, or start at a point where, for people who are interested in maybe doing talks, what is the reason for even creating some of these talks in the first place?Amy: I feel a lot of engineers have the same problem, just day-to-day where they will run into a bug, and then they'll go hit the all-knowing software engineer, which is the Google search engine, and have absolutely either nothing come up or have six posts that say, I'm having this problem, but you won't ever get an answer. This is just a fast way of answering those questions before someone has to ask.Jeremy: Right. When you come up with these ... You run into this bug, and you're thinking to yourself, you can't find the answer. So, you do the research, you spend the time digging through, and finding the right way to solve it. When you put these talks together, do you get a sense that it's helping people and then that it's just another way to connect with the community?Amy: Yeah. When I do it, it's really great, because after our talk, I'll see people either in the hallway, or I'll meet someone at a booth, and they'll even say, it's like, I ran into this exact same problem, and I gave up because it was such a strange edge case that it was too hard to fix, and we just moved on to another solution, which is entirely possible.I also get to express to just the general public that I do, in fact, know what I'm talking about, because someone has given me a stage to talk for 30 minutes, and just put up all of my proofs. That's an actually fun and weirdly empowering place to be.Jeremy: Yeah. I actually think that's really interesting. Again, for me, I loved your talks, and some of those things are ... I put those things at the back of my mind, but I know for people who give talks, who maybe get judged for other reasons or whatever, that it certainly is empowering. Is that something where you certainly shouldn't have to do it. There certainly should be that same level of respect. But is that something that you found that doing these talks really just sets the tone, right off the bat?Amy: Yeah, I feel it does. It helps that when someone Googles you, a bunch of YouTube videos on how to solve their problem comes up, that is extremely helpful, especially ... I do a lot of consulting, so if I ever have to go onsite, and someone wants to know what I do, I can pull up an actual YouTube playlist of things that I've done. It's like being in developer relations without having to write all of that content, I get to write a fraction of that content.Jeremy: Right. Unfortunately, that is a fact that we live with right now, which is, it is completely unfair, but I think that, again, the fact that you do that, you put that out there, and that gives you that credibility, which again, you should have from your resume, but at the same time, I think it's an interesting way to circumvent that, given the current world we live in.Amy: It also helps when there are either younger engineers or even other younger professionals who are looking at the tech industry, and the tech industry, especially right now, it does not have the best reputation to be able to see that there are people who are from different backgrounds, either educationally or financially, or what have you, and are able to go out and see someone who has something similar being a subject matter expert in whatever it is that they're talking about.Jeremy: Right. I definitely agree with that. That's that thing, where the more that we can amplify those types of voices and make sure that people can see that diversity, it's incredibly important. Good for you, obviously, for pushing through that, because I know that I've heard a lot of horror stories around that stuff that makes my blood boil.Let's talk to some of these people out here who potentially want to do some of these talks, and want to use this as a way to, again, sell themselves. Because I can tell you one thing, once I started writing blog posts and doing talks and doing those sorts of things, clearly, I have a very different background, but it just gave me a bunch of exposure; job offers and consulting clients and things like that, those just become much easier to get when you can actually go out there and do some of this stuff.If you're interested in doing that, I think one of the hard things for most people is, what even makes a good talk? You've come up with some really great talks. What's that secret sauce? How do you do that?Amy: I think it can also be very intimidating since a lot of the talks that get a lot of promotion are always huge vendor events that they're trying to push their product, they're trying to push a solution. That usually takes up a lot of advertising real estate, essentially, where that's what you see, that's what you see all the threads and everything. When you actually get to these community conferences, or even when I would speak at AWS Summit, it was ... I had a very specific problem that I needed to solve. I ran into a bug, the bug was not in the documentation, because why would it be?Jeremy: Why would you put that in there, right?Amy: Of course. Then Google, three pages down, maybe put me on the path to finding the right answer, and it's the journey of trying to put all of the bug fixes in place to make it work for your specific environment and then being able to share that.Jeremy: Right, yeah. That idea of taking these experiences that you've had, or trying to solve a problem, and then finding the nuances maybe in solving the problem as opposed to the happy path, which it's always great when you're following a blog post and it says, run this command, then run this command, then run this command. Well, what happens on that third command when the thing blows up, and you have no idea what to do? Then you end up Googling for five hours trying to find your way out of that.You take this path of, find those bugs or find that non-happy path and solve it. Then what do you do around there? How do you then take that ... You got to make that interesting somehow.Amy: Yes. A lot of people use gifs and memes. I use pictures of food and screencaps from Dungeons and Dragons. That's usually just different enough that it'll snap someone just out of their phone going, "Why is there a huge elf on my screen trying to attack people screaming elf errors." Well, that's because that's what they thought it would be great to call it. It's not a great error code. It doesn't explain what it is, and it makes you very confused.Jeremy: Right. Part of that is, and again, there's that relatability when you create talks, and you want to connect with the audience in some way. But you also ... This is the other thing that I've always found the hardest when I'm creating talks, is trying to find the right level. Because AWS always does this thing where they're like, it's a 200 level, or it's a 400 level, and so forth. I think that's helpful, but you're going to get people of all different skill levels, and so forth. How do you take a problem like that, and then make it relatable, or understandable, probably? Find that right level?Amy: The way I see it, there's going to be at least one person of these two types in the room that are not going to be your target audience, someone who doesn't know what you're talking about, but sees that a tool that they're considering is going to pose a problem, and they want to know how difficult it is to fix it. Or there's going to be a business person who has no technical background, and they just want to know if what they're evaluating is worth evaluating, if this error is going to be so difficult to narrow down and try to resolve that, yes, why would we go through something that my engineers are going to spend hours to try to fix something that's essentially a configuration issue?When I write any section of a talk, I make sure that it addresses a person who may not have come into that with that exact problem in mind. For the people who have, they'll understand the ... In animation, it's called key images, where there are very specific slots where you understand the topic of what is happening and the context around it. I always produce more verbose notes that go with my presentation. I usually release it either at the end of the day, or later on that week, once everyone has had time to settle, and it provides a tutorial-esque experience where this is what you saw, this is how you would actually do it if you were in front of a screen.Jeremy: Yeah.Amy: There are people who go to technical talks with a laptop on their lap because they're also working while they're trying to do it. But most of the time, they're not going to have the console open while you're walking through the demo. So, how are you going to address that issue? It's just easier that way.Jeremy: I like that idea too, of ... I try to do high-level bullet points, and then talk about the bullet point. Because one thing that I try to do, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well. Here I am picking your brain trying to make my own talks better. But basically, I do a bullet point, and then I talk through it. I actually animate the bullet points coming in.I'm not a huge fan of showing an entire slide with all the bullet points and then letting people read ahead, I bring a bullet point in, talk about the bullet point, bring another bullet point in. Is that something you recommend doing too? Or do you just present all the concepts and then walk people through it?Amy: I think it depends. I tend to have very dense slides, which is not great for reading, especially if you're several rows back. I truly understand that. But the way I see it, because I also talk very fast when I'm on stage that I want there to be enough context around what's happening, so that if I gloss over a concept, then you visually can understand what's happening.That said, if that's because the entire bullet block on my slide is going to be about a very specific thing that's happening. It's not something that you have to view step-by-step. Now, I do have a few where, especially in a more workshop scenario, where you're going, I want you to think about this first and then go on to this next concept. I totally hide stuff. I just discovered for a talk that I was constructing the other day, that there's an animation that drops them down like index cards, and that's now my favorite animation right now.Jeremy: When you're doing that, like because this is the other thing, just for people who have ever ... If you're out there and you've ever written a talker or you've given a talk, the first iteration of it is never going to be the right one. You have to go through and you have to revise. It is sort of weird, and I don't know, maybe you felt this way too, in the pre-pandemic world, when you would give talks in person, most of the time, you'd give it to a relatively small audience, a couple of hundred people or whatever, as opposed to now, when we do talks, post-pandemic, and they're online, it's like, they're immediately available online.It's hard to give the same talk over and over and over and over again, without somebody potentially having seen it. A lot of work goes into a single talk. Not being able to use the same time over and over again, is not great. But, how do you refine it? Is it that you tested it with a live audience, or do you use a family member or a friend, or a colleague? How do you test and refine your talks?Amy: I'm actually an organizer at a meetup group, and specifically built around giving people of marginalized gender identities, and a place to stage and write technical content. It is a very specific audience.Jeremy: I can imagine.Amy: But it addresses that issue I had earlier about visibility, it also does help you ... If you don't have a lot of contacts in this industry, just as an aside, technical speaking is a way to do it, because everyone loves talking to each other after the stress has worn off, and you become the friendliest person after you've done that.But also, there are meetup groups out there, specifically about doing technical feedback, or just general speaking feedback. If you want to do something general, Toastmasters is a great organization to do. If you want to do strictly technical, if you do any cloud-related stuff, the DevOps communities are super friendly, even if it's not specifically about DevOps. I'm not a DevOps person, but I have a lot of DevOps friends. Some of my best friends are DevOps people.And you can get on a meetup or a Zoom call and just burn through your slides for about 10 or 15 minutes and see ... Your friends will be very honest with you, in a small group.Jeremy: Right. One of the things I did notice, too, giving a speech in person or giving your talk in person versus giving a talk via Zoom call, is sometimes when you don't hear any laughs or chuckles from a little joke that you make in there, it can feel very lonely in that space after you're waiting for something in there, but. It's a little bit ...Amy: It's worse when there are people in the room. I assure you, it is so much worse.Jeremy: That is very true. If something falls flat, that's a good point. Just going back to more this idea of creating good talks, and what makes a good talk. Where do you find ... You mentioned, maybe it's a vendor conference or something and you maybe install the vendor stuff, and you find the bugs and so forth. But is there any other places that you get inspiration from? Are there any resources you use to sort build some of these talks?Amy: Again, the communities help. The communities will tell you, really, it's like, I don't understand this thing, can someone hop on a call with me for real quick minute and explain why this concept is so hard? That's a very good place to base your talk off. As far as making them engaging, and interesting, I tend to clone video gaming videos, just because that's what I watch. I know, if it's going to be interesting to me, then it will probably be at least different than the content that's out there.Jeremy: Right. That's a good way to think of things too, is if it's something that you find interesting, chances are, there are lots of other people that will find that interesting. All right, let's go back to just this idea of creating new talks. You had mentioned this idea of, again, finding the bugs and so forth. But one of the things that I think we see quite a bit is always that bleeding edge stuff. People always want to write content about something new that happened.I'm guilty of this, I would think from a serverless standpoint where you're talking about things that are really, really bleeding edge. It's useful and they're interesting. Certainly, if you go to a conference about serverless, then it's really nice to see you have these talks and what might be possible. But sometimes when you're going to more practical type things. Again, even DevOps Days, and some of those other things, I think you've got attendees or talk listeners who are looking for very practical advice.I guess the question is like, how do you take a new piece of content, one of these problems, whatever it is. I guess, how do you keep finding new content is probably the better way to ask that question?Amy: Well, to just roll back just a little bit. My problem with bleeding edge content, I love watching it, but bleeding edge content will almost always be a product demo because it's someone who developed a new solution, and they want to share with everybody, which is just going to walk you through how it's used, which is great, except, and this is just a nature of what the cloud industry is like, all of this stuff, it changes day-to-day.These tools may not be applicable in a few months, or they may become the new standard. There's no way to tell until you're already six months out, and by then, they've already gone through several product revisions. I once did a talk where I was talking about best practices, and AWS released their updated best practices the day before my talk, and I had to update three slides. It threw off my timing, it was great.That's just one of those kind of pitfalls that you have to roll with. As far as getting new content, though, especially if you're dealing ... It depends who your audience is, because my audience tends to be either ICs or technical leads, and by then you're usually in a company ... If you're not developing these bleeding edge solutions, you're just using the tools that's out there already.You had brought up my "Serverless Frenemies," which is still my favorite title of any talk that I've ever made, because when I did the managing containers one, and I love all my Devro friends, but they all got into my mentions about why don't you just use Fargate? If you're at the containerization stage, why don't you just use Fargate, because it's not even close to the same thing, it is closer to Kubernetes than it is to Lambda, and I'm looking for a Lambda-like solution. That's what that whole deal was about, and I was able to stretch that out into I think 30 minutes because Twitter will tell you what's wrong, whether or not it's accurate or not, and whether or not they're actually your friends. They are my friends, but come on.Jeremy: Twitter can definitely be brutal. I think that, and maybe unpack a little bit what you were saying, is you're creating content around existing tools. One way to do it is, you're using existing tools, you're creating content around that, or you can create content around that. Looking at those solutions, you introduce a new solution to something, or you're even using an existing tool, nothing's perfect. You had mentioned that idea of bugs and so forth. But just, I guess new solutions, or just solutions, in general, maybe higher-level abstractions, everything creates some new type of problem that you have to deal with, and that's probably a pretty effective way to generate new content.Amy: It is. If you ever have to write down an RCA, which, for those who have not had the pleasure of doing one is called a root cause analysis, where you took down production, and you had to explain why.Jeremy: Yep.Amy: Or you ever did this, hopefully, in stage, or hopefully, in development where you ran into a situation where ... I had a situation once where Lambda would not delete itself. I call it my Skynet problem where it just hit a stage where it was both trying to save and delete at the same time. It would lock itself and I had to destroy the entire stack and send that command several times just to force that command through.If you ever have a problem like that, that is a thing that you write up instantly, and then you turn it into slide decks, and then you go to SlidesCarnival, you throw a very flashy background on it, and next thing you know, you have a TED talk, or a technical talk.Jeremy: Right. The other thing too, is, I find use cases to be an interesting, just like ... Non-traditional use cases are kind of fun too, how can I use this in a way that it wasn't meant to be used, and do something like that?Amy: I love those. Those are my favorite. I love watching people break away from what the tutorial says you have to do, and I'm going to get a little weird with it, and that to me is totally fascinating. When the whole, I fed these scripts into a computer meme came out, I thought that was super fascinating because that was something a company I had worked for did, they used analytics ... I used to work for Fantasy Sports, to write color commentary for your Fantasy Football team, and they would send it out.If you did really well, you would get a really raving review, and if you did really poorly, you would get roasted by a computer, and then that gets sent to everyone in the league, and it's hilarious. But that is not a thing that you would just assume a computer would do, is just write hot takes on your Fantasy Football team.Jeremy: That's ... Sure, go ahead.Amy: It's so much fun. I love watching people get weird with the tools that are there.Jeremy: There are times where you could do something like that, you could maybe create a content around some strange use case or whatever, and I love that idea of getting weird with that. The other part of it, though, is that, I guess, if you're sitting through a talk, and it's some super interesting problem that you're listening to, and again, I don't know, maybe it's some database replication thing, that you're just really into, whatever. That makes sense. But I think the majority of problems that developers have, are not that interesting, they're just frustrating.Probably the worst thing to do is wanting to sit through a talk that talks about some frustrating issue you have. Is there a way to basically say, "Look, I have a problem that I want to talk about. It's not the most interesting problem, but how can you flip that and take a problem that's not interesting and make it interesting?Amy: The batching containers and the frenemies talk was all based off of a bin library error from within the Lambda AMI. That, on paper is extremely boring, and should be a thing that you can easily look up, it is not. When I went around it trying to make tracking down library errors interesting, just saying it is very slow and can drain the energy out of your voice.But, I put a lot of energy into my work in general, and that's just how I had to approach pulling these talk is like, I like what I do, just, generally. When I try to explain what I do to people, it sounds super boring, and I own that. Now I'm doing it with spreadsheets, which is much, much worse. But when I tell people, it's not about the error itself, it's about everything that happened to make this one particular error happen. The reason why this error happened was because Lambda uses AWS's very specific Linux AMI when they did not used to, and they left stuff out for either security or performance purposes.Whether or not we as a group agree with that, that's a business decision that they made. How does their business decision affect your future business decisions and your future technical ones? Well, that becomes a way more interesting conversation, because it's like, we know this is going to break at this part, do we still want to use SSH? Do we still need it for this reason? You can approach it more from a narrative standpoint of, I wasted way too much time with this, did I need to? It's like, well, you shouldn't have, this should not have happened, but no bug should have happened, right?Jeremy: Right.Amy: You work through your process of finding a solution instead of concentrating on what the solution is because the solution they can look up in your show notes later.Jeremy: Right. No, I love that idea of documenting your process as opposed to just the solution itself. You find the problem, you pull the thread and where does that take you? I think to myself, a lot of times I go down the rabbit hole on trying to find the solution to a problem that I have or a bug fix, whatever. Sometimes, the resolution is underwhelming. Maybe it's not worth sharing. But other times, there's a revelation in there. I think you're right, with a little bit of storytelling, you can usually take that and turn that into a really interesting talk.Amy: One of the things it will also do, if you look at it from a process and from a narrative standpoint, is that when you take this video, and you send it to either a technical lead or a product manager, they'll understand what the problem was because you did not bog it down with code. There's very little live code in mine because I understand that people build things differently, just because every code is as different as every person. I get that and I've come to terms with it. This is the best way to share that information.Jeremy: Absolutely. All right, let's wrap up the idea of building talks. What is your advice to someone who is starting out new? What's the best way for them to get started, or what's just some general advice for people starting to build talks?Amy: The best content new engineers can do, and that's mostly because this is never the standpoint from which tutorials are ever written in, is that, as someone who knows very little of the way a language or a framework should work, write down your process, the entire thing on you getting either a framework onboarded, how you build, and a messaging system, things that people have written a billion times because chances are, one, you got that work from someone else's blog post or their documentation, and you can cite that. And two, when you do it that way, you not only get into the habit of writing, but you get in the habit of editing it in a way that makes it more palatable for people who are not in your specific experience.When you do it this way, people can actually see, from an outsider's perspective, exactly what is hard about the thing that they built, or what people who do not have a different level of experience are going through. If a tutorial is targeted at engineers who know where the memory leaks in PHP are, that's the thing that comes with experience, that is not the thing that can be trained.When a new engineer hits that point, and they found it in a new framework where you fix it, then you start knowing where to fix other problems. That way more senior engineers and more vetted people can learn from your experience, and then they will contact you and they will teach you how to find these issues, so you don't run into them again, and you end up with someone you can just bounce ideas off of. That's how you get pulled into these technical communities. It's a really self-healing process.Jeremy: Yeah. I love that. I think this idea of you approaching something from a slightly different angle, your experience, the way that you do it, the way that you see it, the way that you perceive the word or the next prompt that comes back, or how you read an error message or any of those things, you sharing your experience around that is hugely valuable to the people that are building these things. But also, you may run into problems that other people like you run into, and it's just ... Sometimes, all it takes is just a tiny twisting of the words, rearranging a sentence in a way that now that clicks with somebody where the other time it didn't. I love that.That's why I always encourage people, just even if somebody has written his content 100 times before, whatever slight difference there is in your content, that could have a powerful effect on someone else.Amy: Yeah, it really can.Jeremy: Awesome. All right, let me ask you a couple of questions about Lambda and Functions as a Service because I know that you spent quite a bit of time on this stuff. I guess a question, especially, maybe even from a cloud economist, what's next for Lambda and Functions as a Service? Because I know you've written about the Lambda containers, but what's maybe that next evolution?Amy: What AWS did recently when they released Lambda Containers is basically put it at feature parity with Azure and GCP, which already had that ability, they had either a function service or a function to Json service where you could upload your own container. They finally released the base image, where, granted, if you knew where to look, you could get it before, but they actually released it, and announced it to the general public, so you don't have to know someone in order to be able to use it.What I see a lot of people being able to do with this now is they really want to do local development testing, so they don't have to push anything to their account and rack up those charges, when all that you want to do is make sure that whatever one line update you made, actually worked and you didn't put the space or the cab in the wrong place, which is, I guess, how it works now and it takes down the entire stack, which again, we've all done at least once, so don't worry about it. If you've ever taken down production, don't worry, you're not the only one, I promise you. You can't throw a t-shirt into an empty conference room and not hit a dude who took down production. I'm going to save that for later.Local development testing, live simulation is a really big thing. I've seen asked to do full-on data science just on Lambda containers, so they don't have to use Kubernetes anymore, because speaking of cost stuff, it's easier to track cost-wise than Kubernetes is, because Kubernetes is purely consumption-based, and you have to tie a bunch of stuff together in order to make that tracking work. That would be great.I think from here on, and a lot of the FaaS changes, they're not going to be front ends anymore, it's all going to be optimizations by the providers, you're not going to see much of that anymore. It's not like before, where they would add three more fields and make a blog post about it. I think everything is just going to be tuning just from Lambda's perspective now. That and hooking it to more things, because they love their integrations. What good is Lambda if you can't integrate it yourself?Jeremy: Right, if you can't hook it up to events. It's interesting, though, this move to support containers as a packaging format. You're right, I think this has been available in IBM, it's been available in Google, it's been available in Microsoft, these capabilities have existed for a while to use a container, and again, that's a very overloaded word, I know, but to use that as a packaging format. But moving to that, the parity there with the other cloud providers is one thing, but who's that conversation for? Whose mind does that change about serverless, or FaaS, I guess.Amy: The security team.Jeremy: Security, okay.Amy: Because if you talk to any engineer, if it's a technical problem, they'll find a way to fix it. That's just the way, especially at the individual contributor level, that's how the brain works is like, oh, this is a small thing, I bet I can fix it with a few days, or a weekend. Weekend turns into a month, but that's a completely different problem. I've had clients who did not want to use Lambda because they could not control the containerization system. You would be pushing your code into containers that were owned by Amazon, and the way they saw that, they saw that as liability.While it does have some very strong technical implications, because you're now able to choose the kind of runtime you do, easier than trying to hamstring layers together, because I know layers is supposed to fix this problem, but it's so hard. It's so hard for something that you should be able to download off of Docker and then play with it and then put it back. It's so unnecessarily hard, and it makes me so angry.If you're willing to incur that responsibility, you can tweak your memory and you have more technical control, but also you have more control at a business level too, and that is a conversation that will go way easier as far as adoption.Jeremy: Right. The other thing, in terms of, I guess the complexity of running K8s or running Kubernetes is one of those things where that just seems like a lot of complexity. You mentioned the billing aspect of it and trying to track cost. Not that everyone's trying to narrow down exactly how much this Lambda container ran them, maybe you have more insight into that than I do, but the idea of just the complexity.It seems to me that if you start thinking about cost, that the total cost of ownership of running a container and a Lambda function or running it in Fargate, versus having to install and maintain ... I would say, even if you're using one of the managed services like EKS, or something like that, that the total cost of ownership of going down the serverless route has got to be better.Amy: Yeah, especially if you're one of these apps that are very user generater based. You're tracking mostly events and content, and not even a huge amount of content, you're not streaming video, you're sharing pictures, or sharing ... If you were trying to rebuild Foursquare, you would just be sharing Geo data, which is comparatively an extremely small piece of data.You don't need an entire instance, or an entire container to do that. You can do that on a very small scale, and build that out really quickly. That said, if you go from one of these three-person teams, and then there's interest in your product, for whatever reason, and it explodes, then not just your cost, but if you had to manage the traffic of that, if you had to manage the actual resources of that, and you did not think your usage would stick with your bill, that's not great.Being able to, at least in the first few years of the company, just use Lambda for everything, that's probably just a safer solution, because you're still rapidly iterating, and you're still changing things very quickly, and you're still transmitting very small bits of data. That said, it's like there are also large enterprise companies that are heavy Lambda users, and even their Lambda bill compared to their Kubernetes bill, it is ... If you round it to down there Kubernetes bill, you would get their Lambda bill.Jeremy: Right. Gotcha. I think that's really interesting because I do ... I actually would love to know your thoughts and whether you even see this. I don't know if we have enough data yet to know this, but this idea of using Lambda, especially early on in startups, or even projects within an enterprise, being able to have that flexibility and the low operational overhead and so forth, I think is really great. But do you see that, or is that something that you think will happen is, you'll get to a point where you'll say we've found some sort of stability point with this product, where we now need to move it over to something like Kubernetes, or a container management system because overall, it's going to end up being cheaper in the long run.Amy: What usually happens when you're making that transition from Lambda to either even ECS or Fargate, or eventually Kubernetes is that your business logic has now become so complex, or your infrastructure requirements have become so complex that Lambda can't do it cleanly anymore. You end up maxing out on either memory or CPU utilization, or because you're ... Apparently Lambda has a limit on how many times you can invoke it at the same time, which some people have hit in real life.Those are times when it stops being a cheaper solution, and it stops being a target solution because you can run your own FaaS environment within instances, and then you can have a similar environment to what you're building so you don't have to rebuild everything, but you don't have to incur that on-demand cost anymore. That's one path I've seen someone take, and that's usually the decision is that Lambda, before, when it was limited, can't hold it.Now that you can put your own container, so long as it fits in that requirement, you can pad that runway out a little bit, and you can stretch out how long you have before you do a full conversion to ECS environment. But that is usually how it is because you just try to overload or you have, maybe, 50 Lambdas trying to support one application, which is totally a thing you can do, it may not be the best ... Even with Step, even with everything else. When that becomes too complex, and you end up just going through containers, anyway.Jeremy: Right. I think that's interesting, and I think any company that grows to the point where that they need to start thinking about that next little infrastructure, it's probably a good thing. It's a good point to start having those conversations.All right, I got just one more question for you, because I'm really interested. You mentioned what you do as a cloud economist, reading through people's bills and things like that. Now, I thought Corey just made this thing up. I didn't even know this thing existed until, Corey comes out, and he probably coined the term. But in terms of that ...Amy: That's what he tells people.Jeremy: He does tell people that, right. I think he did. So, I will definitely give him credit there. But in terms of that role, of being a cloud economist and having to look through people's bills, and trying to find them ways to save it, that's pretty insane that we need people like you to do that, isn't it?Amy: Yes, it's a bananas job. I cannot believe this is a job that I'm actually doing. It's also a lot of fun. But if you think about it, that when I was starting out, and everything was LAMP stack, when I started. That was a hot new tech when I started, was the LAMP stack. The solution to all of those problems were we're going to throw more hardware at it. Then the following question was, why are we spending so much on hardware?Their solution to that problem was, we're going to buy real estate to store all of the hardware on. Now that you don't have to do that, you still have the problem of, I'm going to solve this problem by throwing more hardware at it. That's still a mindset that is alive and well, and you still end up with the same problem, except now you don't have the excuse that at least we own the facility that data is in because you don't anymore.Since you don't actually own the cases and the plates and everything, you don't have to worry about disposing of them and having to use stuff that you don't actually use anymore. A lot of my problems are, one of our services has gone out of control, we don't know why. Then I will tell you, who is spending that money. I will talk to that team to make sure that they know that it's happening because sometimes they don't even know what's happening. Something got spun up into their account, and maybe it was a testbed, maybe it was a demo, maybe they hired a vendor to load something into their environment and those costs got out of control.It's not like I'm going out trying to tell you that you did something wrong. It's like, this is where the problem is, let's go find out what happened. Forensic cloud bill person, I'm going to workshop that into a business card, because that sounds way better than the title that Corey uses.Jeremy: Forensic cloud accountant or something like that.Amy: Yes.Jeremy: I think it's also interesting that billing is, and the bills you get from AWS are a leading indicator of things that are potentially going wrong. Interesting, because I don't know if people connect this. Maybe I'm underestimating people here, but the idea that a bill that runs, or that you're seeing EC2 instances cost spiking, or you're seeing a higher load or higher bandwidth or things like that. Those can all be indicators of poorly written code, it can be indicators of the bad compression or missing compression settings, all kinds of things that it can jump out at you. Unless somebody is paying attention to those bills, I don't think most developers and most teams, they're not going to see that.Amy: Yeah. The only time they pay attention when things start spiraling out of control, and ... Okay, this sounds like an intuitive issue, and first thing people will do, will go, "We're going to log everything, and we're going to find out where the problem is."Jeremy: It'll cost you more money.Amy: There is a threshold where cloud watch becomes very expensive.Jeremy: Right, absolutely.Amy: Then they hit that threshold, and now their bill is four times as much.Jeremy: Right.Amy: A lot of the times it's misconfiguration, it's like, very rarely does any product get to the point where they just can't ... It's built so poorly that it can barely hold itself up. That's never been the case. It's always been, this has been turned off, or AWS also offers S3 analytics. You have to turn them on per bucket, that's not a policy that's usually written in anyone's AWS config. When they launch it, they just launch it without any analytics. They don't know if the thing is supposed to be sending things to Glacier, if it's highly used data, there's no way to tell.It's trying to find little holes like that, where it seems like it shouldn't be a problem, but the minute it becomes a problem, it's because you spent $20,000.Jeremy: Right. Yeah. No, you can spend money very, very fast in the cloud. I think that is a lesson learned by many, many people.Amy: The difference between being on metal and throwing hardware at a problem and being on the cloud and throwing hardware at a problem is that you can throw hardware at a problem at scale on the cloud.Jeremy: Exactly. Right. There's no stopping point like we have to go by using servers ...Amy: No one will stop you.Jeremy: No one will stop you. Just maybe the credit card company or whatever. Anyways, Amy, you are doing some amazing work with that, because I actually find that to be very, very fascinating. I think, in terms of what that can do, and the need for it, it's a fascinating field, and super interesting. Good for Corey for really digging into that and calling it out. Then again, for people like you who are willing to take that job, because that seems to me like poring through those numbers can't be the most interesting thing to do. But it must feel good when you do find a way to save somebody some money.Amy: Spreadsheets can be interesting. Again, it's like everything else about my job. If I try to explain why it's interesting, I just make it sound more boring.Jeremy: Awesome. All right. Well, let's leave it there. Amy, thank you again, for joining me, this was awesome. If people want to find out more about you, or maybe they have horribly large AWS cloud bills, and they want to check out the Duckbill Group, how do they do that?Amy: Honestly, if you search for Corey Quinn, you can find the Duckbill Group real fast. If you want to go talk to me because I like doing community engagement, and I like doing talks, and I like roasting people on Twitter just about different stuff, you can hit me up on Twitter @nerdypaws. If you want to be a professional, I'm also on LinkedIn under Amy Codes.Jeremy: All right, and then you also have a website, Amy-codes.com.Amy: Amy-codes.com is the archive of all my talks. It's currently only showing the talks from last year because for some reason, it's somehow became very hard to find a spot for the past year. Who knew?Jeremy: A lot of people doing talks. But anyways, all right, Amy, thank you again. Appreciate it.Amy: Thank you. Had so much fun.

Amy Balliett is Founder and CEO at Killer Visual Strategies, an agency that specializes in visual communications design – creating such “products” as info and motion graphics, data visualizations, virtual reality, and interactive content. An Inc. 5000 company for four years in a row, Killer, now part of Material, has won over 30 excellence in visual communication awards. Clients include such Fortune 1000 companies as Amazon, Boeing, the Discovery Channel, Edwards Lifesciences Corporation, and Microsoft. In this interview, Amy talks about the “spammy” beginnings of infographics, when people slapped up on their websites images that had nothing to do with their brand.  She says, a high-quality infographic visually communicates significant meaning so efficiently and effectively that little text is required. Amy notes that around 10,000 infographics are released daily . . . and 99% fail. The 1% that succeed don't use much text, use custom (as opposed to stock) illustrations, provide proper data visualization, and clearly show attention to detail and time put into the design. The agency's services keep evolving to meet changing client needs. The biggest challenge is “to find that one illustration style that won't go out of style.”  HubSpot reports that “91% of audiences prefer visual content as their primary, secondary, and tertiary form of information delivery.” A visual strategy would consider the first, second, and third pieces of content a prospective client might see going into a funnel. Amy says, “Content is king . . . visual content reigns supreme, and visual strategy is content strategy, just leveled up.” Amy recommends a 90-second “motion graphic” as the most important piece of visual strategy content a company might invest in now. That 90 seconds can be broken down into “dozens of visually designed scenes” that can be used on social media, stacked to create an infographic, or paginated to create an eBook. She notes that visual content has to be matched both to channels and to audiences.  Killer evolved over the years . . . through a pivot that exploded . . . first in a good way . . . and then not. Exhausted from the frenetic pace, the agency had never stopped to consider such core questions as: “What's the type of client that we want? What's the type of work we really want to do? What's the type of person we want to be bringing on to our team? What are the values of this company that are going to drive these decisions?” Amy hired a business coach for herself and the team (probably the best decision she ever made) and an HR consultant to help establish policies. A new focus on building a values-driven culture and hiring and firing employees and clients based on these values changed “who we were, our level of productivity, and the clients we attracted . . . our revenue went up 50% in one year.” The agency's values are simple: Keep Learning, Inspire Others, Lead by Example, Love What We Do, Embrace Change, and Respect Others. Amy can be found on LinkedIn at: Amy Balliett on Twitter @amyballiett. Her book, Killer Visual Strategies, available on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Killer-Visual-Strategies-Amy-Balliett/dp/1119680220), was recently awarded “one of the best marketing and sales books of 2020.” Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Amy Balliett, Founder and CEO at Killer Visual Strategies based in Seattle, Washington. Welcome to the podcast, Amy. AMY: Thank you so much for having me. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. You have one of those excellent names for your firm that I think probably tells us what you do, but why don't you tell us about Killer Visual Strategies and what the firm's superpower really is?  AMY: Definitely. To tell you that, the best way to say it is our original name. Our original name was Killer Infographics, so even more focused on what we were doing. At the time, we really focused on developing high-quality infographics for marketing needs and things like that. Over the years, our services kept evolving based on the needs of our clients. But ultimately, everything still lives on the foundation of what we view as our superpower, which is visual communication design. A high-quality infographic is something that you don't have to read; instead, you can look at it and cull important information from it without diving into paragraphs of text. So everything we do centers on that. It's about graphically representing information to efficiently and effectively create meaning and using as little text as possible. That's really what our superpower is. ROB: That's interesting. As little text as possible. What do you recall in your own mind as the emergence of infographics? When did they start catching your eye? When did it become so obsessive for you that it seemed like the business? AMY: It's so interesting, because infographics have a very rich history. The very first known infographic was the 1600s, although you could say cave paintings on walls were the first infographics. They've been around forever, but around 2008 they started to be used more regularly for SEO needs, for link-building and other forms of content marketing. I started to slowly get into them because I was heading up SEO at a company here in Seattle and really wanted to use them for the link-building value. But the company I was at never really wanted to use them. So, when I left to start my own company – which was actually a completely different business model than what Killer is today, and which had a bunch of different websites that I was marketing – I started creating infographics to do link-building for all of those websites. That was June of 2010. At that point, infographics were this big trending thing, and everybody was questioning how long that trend would last. Everybody really thought this was something that was going to be a one-and-done trend, and by 2011 we were going to move to something else for content and content marketing. So I got on it at a time that I thought was the very end of a trend. [laughs] And it turns out it was the very, very beginning. ROB: How has the use of infographics evolved? There was a point in time where it felt like a well-designed and executed infographic targeted at the right audience really extensively lived as a life of its own, but the fad didn't end as a fad; it just integrated into the visual language of the internet. AMY: That's exactly right. The thing is, at first infographics were so spammy. People would put out content that had nothing to do with their brand, nothing to do with their website. They just really wanted to put out something controversial that was driven by visuals because today's audiences crave visual content. They were really trying to use infographics to hook somebody and get backlinks primarily. After that spammy part of the fad started to die down – which happened because Google kept changing their algorithm, and when Google did their Penguin and Panda updates back in 2010 and 2011, all of a sudden the big content farms that were really being fueled by infographics started disappearing from Google. As a result, infographics stopped being as spammy. The market stopped being flooded with these really spammy designs, and instead large brands started to take notice and said, “Oh wow, this is an amazing way to connect with my audience and really get them to understand our brand, our service, our products without having to give them a big long whitepaper.” The trend was moving away from whitepapers and moving more and more towards media as a form of entertainment and education in all forms. ROB: That's a really fascinating evolution there. If we look at today, is there still that link-building aspect to it? Or is it more broadly about brand at this point, and about speaking to an audience coherently with your brand attached to it? AMY: It's about speaking to your audience coherently with your brand attached to it. Links definitely come with infographics – not like they used to. In 2010, I put out some awful infographics because I was still learning, and they'd get thousands of backlinks. Anybody would celebrate anything with the word “infographic” attached to it, whereas today, we have far more discerning eyes. If you jump back to 2010 versus today in 2021, the fact is, media within the internet has evolved so much. There's so much more of a wow factor in everything we see. That also has led to a heightened expectation for what a good infographic is. There's still about 10,000 released a day, but 99% of them fail. The 1% of them that truly succeed are the ones that don't use a lot of text, the ones that use entirely custom illustration, proper data visualization, and the ones that clearly show attention to detail and time put into the design. But if they're slapped together, they're using stock imagery, or if there are paragraphs of text next to a small illustration, things like that, they're going to fail. People are still jumping on the bandwagon because they think they're going to get a bunch of backlinks, but if they don't actually execute them properly, they're not going to get backlinks, and they might even hurt their brand on top of it. ROB: It's good to know the danger there. In the evolution of your firm, you can see this evolution where the infographic is part of a broader visual strategy, probably with a much more expanded vocabulary. What are the elements you see now as the language of visual strategy as you think about it? AMY: It's so interesting. There's this really great stat from HubSpot that 91% of audiences prefer visual content as their primary, secondary, and tertiary form of information delivery. When we think about visual strategy today, we think about the top of the funnel and we say to ourselves, what's the first, second, and third piece of content somebody's going to see as they're going into that funnel? Then we start to identify what channels those people are living on to deliver that content, and the channels and the audience define what type of content we choose to put out into the ether for the visual strategy of the brand. Sometimes it might be short form social media images with at most 6 words on them. Sometimes it'll be a visually rich eBook where each page has at most 200 words. Other times it's a motion graphic. I always say to anybody who's thinking about getting into visual strategy for their own brands, the most important piece of content that you can invest in right now is a motion graphic. That's going to give you so much to work with. It's usually about 90 seconds. It should never be over 90 seconds. It's usually about 90 seconds of content that breaks down into dozens of visually designed scenes that you can pull out and use on social media. You can stack the scenes up and create an infographic. You can paginate the scenes and create an eBook. You have so much more than just a motion graphic if you invest in one. You have dozens of other pieces of content you can produce out of it. It's really about identifying the right content for the right channel for the right audience. I know that's kind of the answer to all contact marketing, really, but with visual content there's definitely different types of visual content that work on different channels. You really have to understand that landscape and choose what's going to connect with that audience the best. ROB: Sure, and there's a distinction in there. Much like the graduation from infographics to visual strategies, when you're referring to a motion graphic, what I'm picturing is that explainer video, is what some people would call it. Some people would come to you saying they want an explainer video, but I think what you're saying is that's not really what they want. If they just got an explainer video that didn't consider this trend that comes and goes online but is always true, this atomization of content where you can take something and pull it apart into individual pieces that are bite-size and put them lots of places – just asking for an explainer video doesn't get you there. AMY: Exactly. Today's marketers are using 12 to 14 types of visual content just to accomplish singular goals. It can never be one-and-done. You always have to consider all of the different ways you can use that content. You can create derivatives to develop even more campaigns and strategies around it. It is really content marketing. The concept that content is king, which comes from a Bill Gates article in 1999, is still true. Content is king. But visual content reigns supreme, and that's really what we have to focus on when we think about visual strategy. It's content strategy, just leveled up. ROB: Right. One thing I think about in this category that maybe isn't thought of this way when it comes out is Mary Meeker annually puts out this internet trends deck at the turn of the year. Have you run into that before? AMY: Yes, definitely. ROB: It's hundreds of pages, hundreds of slides in a PowerPoint deck. If you said, “Do you want a 200-slide deck from a venture capitalist?”, I don't know if you do. But then you look at the pieces of it, and each slide – you know better than I do – seems like it has pretty good value. It seems like it tells a story as a whole, and it seems like it builds a brand for her in whichever firm she's with. AMY: Exactly. That's so spot-on. That's the entire point. If that were 200 pages of paragraphs of content, do you think it would be given the same level of attention it gets today? Not even at all. Not close. ROB: Nobody anticipates that one. AMY: Exactly. ROB: Amy, you alluded a little bit to the journey, your own journey in starting the firm. It looks from your LinkedIn like, as you mentioned, you were working in SEO. You had a job. You had someone else who was responsible for your paycheck. What led you to turn that corner and go into this process of being responsible to kill what you wanted to eat and then to eventually be responsible for an ever-growing – or maybe not ever-growing, but in many cases a payroll of people who depend on you, and it's a lot of responsibility? What caused that transition? AMY: It's so odd because it's hard for me to pinpoint an exact time. I owned my first company when I was 17. I actually owned an ice cream parlor and candy store in a summer vacation resort. It was open only during the summer, so it didn't compete with school. That was my first foray into entrepreneurship – and I hated it, I'm going to be honest with you. I loved it and I hated it. I was working 80+ hours a week during my summer breaks my junior and senior year of high school. That gave me a sour taste in my mouth. But then about – jeez, I don't know how long later; maybe it was about 6 years later – I came up with an idea for a social network. This was before Facebook had opened up to non-.edu email addresses. I didn't even know that Facebook existed yet. I came up with this idea for a social network, but all I had was the idea. I could not execute on the idea because I had zero coding skills. At the time, I was a video editor; my degree is in film, so I was doing video editing and motion picture marketing and really couldn't bring much to the table for this idea. I had my cousin join in on the idea, and he could bring everything to the table. He's a full stack developer and the best designer I've ever met. So here's this guy taking on the weight of the world, basically trying to make my idea come to fruition, and all I can do is try to market the idea, try to build a user base. It failed really quickly because you can't just come to the table with an idea. You have to be able to execute on that idea. We got to a point after 6 months where it became clear that this was just way too much to put on one person. During that 6 months, I started to learn SEO and online marketing, so I decided to pivot my career into SEO and online marketing. In that part of my career, I learned web development as well. It really just came down to I had started to stack up a series of skills – nothing that I was fantastic at; everything I was good enough at. If you're trying to be too many things at once, it's like trying to learn 10 instruments at once. You're never going to master one instrument. But I was good enough at enough skills. I was good enough at graphic design, good enough at animation, good enough at development that I was finally in a place where I felt like I could do all of this on my own. I had tested a few proofs of concept within the last company I worked at, really seeing if I could create new revenue streams for that company. Once I did, I realized, crud, I'm bringing in millions in revenue streams to this company; why can't I do this for myself? You get to a point where you have the confidence in your career to take that chance, but I also got to the point where I had enough in savings to take that chance. I'm not going to lie, that was incredibly important to me. I think I would not have taken the risk at all if it weren't for having a nice safety net of cash just in case everything failed.  ROB: Amy, a lot of people have that interesting stack of skills, but they may not recognize it. They may not know how to apply it. To your metaphor, they may still be trying to be the best at a particular instrument when it's really the intersection of several skills that is where they can be truly unique in their world. How did you come to understand that concept of the stack of skills and see it in yourself?  AMY: It was really just every idea I came up with, I started to realize, “Crud, I need a designer for this, and I need somebody to develop this.” I just started thinking about all the things I needed for somebody to execute on the work. I'm a control freak. I really am. So I started to say, “I need to learn these things myself because I can't really give away trust too easily and put that work on somebody else's plate.” For me, that's really what made me realize I needed that stack of skills: wanting to execute on so many ideas, but not having the capacity to do it myself. I'm really glad that over the years, I learned to release the reins, because every single employee I've hired is 20 times better than me at any one of those skills. And that's really important. You always have to hire somebody who's much better than you. But the fact that I've been able to play every single role in my company and that I have played every role, that I've sat in their shoes – it's so much easier to manage everybody because I know what they're going through. I know how long it would take me to do a task, so I can judge how long it would take somebody on my team to do that same task. I know what expectations to put in front of them, and I also know when to pull back and let them take the lead and run the show. ROB: Right on. I've certainly experienced, at least in my perception – and you never know whether you're wrong in your perception at the top; it's always worth questioning. But when I'm hiring people within my stack of skills, I feel like I can get to a decision faster, and I feel like I almost get to be the Pied Piper a little bit. There's a sense of trust and safety that they may feel where they felt wary. I tend to hire software developers for a lot of what we do, and there's almost an unspoken bond that moves quickly when you can send the right signals, I think.  AMY: That's so, so true. That's exactly how it's always felt. I remember when we brought on our first developer to the team and I sat down with him and I was talking about a couple of lines of jQuery. He looked at me and said, “Wait, I haven't had a boss who knows jQuery before.” It was just this weird “aha” moment. ROB: It's such a good discussion, the skill stacking thing. I think I have often heard of it spoken of on – there's a podcaster, James Altucher, and I think he talks about it a good bit. But I don't know – have you had any good sources for these concepts? Because I think it's underexplored, and maybe there's a book or something that I'm less familiar with. AMY: I haven't necessarily dove into any books related to this specific concept, no. It really has more come through networking with the right people, getting to know more people who have faced the same types of challenges, but also, again, surrounding myself with such a curious team, a team that will never rest on their laurels. One of our values at Killer is “keep learning,” and it's probably the most embraced value in the company because everybody's just trying to stay on top of trends and stay ahead of trends. I think that's also a part of it. There's a bit of a competitive attitude where all of us want to be in the know of what that next big thing is. ROB: It's such an interesting through line. You mentioned that Google's obviously changed algorithms, and it feels like they're a lot closer to trying to provide the result you actually wanted. But there was an era of SEO that was very competitive; it was very much about tactics and how ethical those tactics were. Kind of secret knowledge. But some of that transitions well, probably, into process around visual strategy. There is always something to learn. There is always a new cutting-edge frontline of what's working and what's not. You have to keep learning, just like you did in SEO. AMY: Exactly. It's so true. What's interesting is with SEO, you're trying to game Google's algorithm, for lack of a better phrase. It is really what you try to do in a lot of ways, whereas with visual strategy, you're trying to consider so many disparate audiences. What's going to trend for one audience isn't going to trend for another audience. There's not one universal algorithm to break. Instead, it's really identifying all of the different aesthetic directions that could impact Audience A over Audience B over Audience C and so on. ROB: It's an infinite game, too. You can't just go for the moment. You could position the whole thing as being there to hack the human brain, but in the context of a brand, you also have to consider how people feel afterwards and in the long run. It's not a short game. It's not “look at this graphic,” right? AMY: Exactly. And you also have to consider the timeline of that campaign, because sometimes we'll have a client where they want a visual language and aesthetic look and feel to uplevel their brand, but something that's going to last for decades to come. That's a whole other feat to accomplish, trying to find that one illustration style that won't go out of style. That's been an interesting experience. ROB: Absolutely. Amy, as you reflect on building Killer Visual Strategies, what are some things that you've learned along the way that you might do a little bit differently if you were starting from scratch? AMY: The biggest thing I've learned is about being proactive versus reactive. Killer was a pivot from a completely different business model, and because it was a pivot, we didn't spend a lot of time thinking proactively about what we wanted the business to be. Instead, we just lived in a reactive state for about 3 years. We basically went from our very first quarter of work being 14 orders to the first month in our second quarter being 40 orders, and it just kept going up and up and up and up. The first 3 years or so, we were just so exhausted by reacting to the demand that we didn't take the time to say, “What's the type of client that we want? What's the type of work we really want to do? What's the type of person we want to be bringing on to our team? What are the values of this company that are going to drive these decisions?” All of those things that seem corny initially – when you're an entrepreneur and you want to start a company, the last thing you say is, “What are the values going to be of my company?” It's rarely something an entrepreneur does first. But had we done that first, I think we would have grown faster and even more intentionally than we did. Our first 5 years felt like a wild, wild west, and we had a culture inflection point at Year 5 where, honestly, almost everything exploded. And almost everything exploded because we were not a values-driven company. We had a great team; we knew we wanted to go out and get a beer with everybody, but we didn't all approach conflict in the same way. When you have a values-driven company, you have a set of guidelines with which to attack conflict together as a team, but we didn't have that. Nobody really knew what our values were, even though they spelled out the word “KILLER.” So we had to reset and focus on building a values-driven culture, hiring and firing by our values and hiring and firing clients by our values as well. That drastically changed who we were. It also drastically changed our level of productivity, the types of clients we attracted – I mean, our very first year of really paying attention to that, our revenue went up 50% in one year. So there's more than just the corny feelings that you get with coming up with your mission, vision, and values. When you actually truly embrace those and live those and lead by those, you'll see a team that is so much more inspired, so much more willing to take on the hardest challenges with you. You can really grow your company by leaps and bounds when you do that. That's the biggest lesson I've learned. ROB: Was it the explosion that pushed you to this realization of the need, or was there another catalyst in your life? AMY: It was the explosion, it really was. And that explosion was such a slow burn. That powder keg – we knew it was going to explode at some point, but we were still being so reactive that there wasn't time to pay attention to it. By the time it happened – we actually joke in the company and we call it “emailgate” because it all started from an email. [laughs] But we brought in the right people at that point. I hired a business coach to come in and coach myself, coach my leadership, and coach the team as a whole. I hired a really good HR consultant to come in and do the exact same thing, to really help us build the right policies in that arena. By bringing on the right experts, I was really, really lucky. I was also somebody who kept saying, “Why do I need a coach? I don't need a coach! This isn't a sports team!” [laughs] It turned out that having a business coach was probably the best investment I have ever made, and I know my team feels that way too, because they saw me change as a result of having somebody really help me look at problems differently and react to critiques from the team differently. When you're a business owner and you're at the very top, it is extremely lonely. And when you're in a creative firm where everybody is really emotionally driven – because to be creative, you have to bring emotion into your work. When you're that passionate – that's what I mean by emotionally driven – you're going to be passionate about what's working and what's not in the company, and you're going to be very vocal about that. I used to take that as such an affront to me. I would get offended by really positive critiques, people coming to me with good ideas, and maybe I would just look at it as them critiquing me instead of an opportunity to improve in the company. So having a coach really helped me look at that very differently and embrace the amazing feedback of my team. ROB: I think it's so helpful for you to share that, Amy. The perception people have is – in some cases it's true that a cheesy coach is cheesy and cheesy values are cheesy. Sometimes I feel like I can sound a little bit needy in the course of a conversation because I will tell people about my coach and my therapist and my entrepreneurial support group. But I think we just need to talk about it. For me, those things are all healthy, but maybe there's sort of the cult of the CEO, where we feel like we need to have all the answers. AMY: Yes, that's exactly it. You get imposter syndrome when you don't necessarily have the right answers. I also have an entrepreneurial support group, and that has been immensely helpful for me. Just talking to other business owners – they don't have to be in your same industry – and realizing, “Oh, hey, these problems exist across all businesses, not just a creative content agency, or not just a mom and pop shop down the street.” There's very similar problems that exist across any culture, across any work environment, and when you can get other business owners to tell you what they've gone through and game a solution together, it is so much better than just being in your own silo, trying to figure it out yourself. ROB: Such a healthy conversation, Amy. You've really shared the journey and shared the experience. When people want to connect with you and when they want to connect with Killer Visual Strategies, where should they look you up? AMY: You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. Just Amy Balliett on LinkedIn. You can find me on Twitter @amyballiett, although I'm not nearly as active as I should be on Twitter. Then you can also check out my book, which is Killer Visual Strategies, on Amazon. It was just awarded one of the best marketing and sales books of 2020. ROB: Congratulations. I think we all needed a nice visual book along those lines in 2020 – something to think about aspirationally and not just looking into our own basements. AMY: Right? That's so true. Oh my gosh. Good old 2020. [laughs] ROB: Yeah. Hope is on the way. I'm tremendously hopeful for the year, and I think probably you're very similarly positioned with your positioning and with what people are about to need to do with you as a partner. AMY: Yeah, definitely. I'm very excited for what 2021 has in store for us. ROB: Excellent. Amy, I wish you the best. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I encourage everyone to look Amy up, look up her book, and I would imagine that Killer Visual Strategies probably has a solid couple of social feeds to pay attention to as well. AMY: Definitely. Thank you so much, Rob. I really appreciate it. ROB: Thank you, Amy. Be well. Bye. AMY: You too. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy. I'm Amy McPhie Allebest. Today's episode will be a discussion of the book The Chalice and the Blade, by Riane Eisler. This book was published in 1987, and along with other female archaeologists working at the time, Eisler proposed  theories about humans' prehistoric past that caused quite a stir in the field of archaeology and gave rise to a spiritual “goddess” movement within feminism in the 1980's and 90's.  (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-11-tm-2975-story.html (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-11-tm-2975-story.html)) But before we dive in, I'm excited to introduce my first reading partner, Malia Morris. Hi Malia! Malia: Hi Amy! Amy:  Malia and I are neighbors here in California, and Malia, I'm thrilled that you joined this project because you are such a brilliant thinker and an amazing person. So Malia, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Your background and what you like to do and your point of view that you bring to the text? Malia: (Bio) Amy: Can I also ask you what interested you in the project? Malia: (What interested Malia in the project) Amy: Thank you so much for being here! And with that, let's dive in. Malia, can you give us some background on Riane Eisler, and some of the main points that we'll be discussing in her book, The Chalice and the Blade.  Malia: Riane Eisler is a social systems scientist, cultural historian, and attorney whose research, writing, and speaking has transformed the lives of people worldwide.  She lived through the Nazi occupation of Austria when she was a child, and she writes the following about that experience: “I was born in Vienna, and my parents and I lived there until Austria was annexed by Nazi Germany. On Kristallnacht, so called because of all the glass shattered in Jewish homes, synagogues, and businesses, a gang of Gestapo men broke into our home and dragged my father off. That was terrifying. But that night I also witnessed something I carried with me the rest of my life. My mother stood up to these men.”  Riane fled from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_seizure_of_power (Nazis) with her parents to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba (Cuba) as a small child, and later emigrated to the United States. She obtained degrees in sociology and law from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Los_Angeles (UCLA), and her lifelong questions about how and why human beings are so brutal to each other led to her work in Anthropology.  Eisler taught pioneering classes on women and the law at UCLA; and has taught in the graduate Transformative Leadership Program at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Institute_of_Integral_Studies (California Institute of Integral Studies) and the Anthropology Department at the University of Alabama, Birmingham, as well as online through the Center for Partnership Studies and the Omega Institute. She is editor-in-chief of the Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Minnesota (University of Minnesota) and President of the Center for Partnership Studies, dedicated to research and education on the “partnership model” introduced by her research.   Sources:  https://rianeeisler.com/ (https://rianeeisler.com/) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riane_Eisler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riane_Eisler) https://centerforpartnership.org/ (https://centerforpartnership.org/)  This book is full of information, but we chose to highlight these three points: In multiple locations, at various times, there is archeological evidence of peaceful, woman-centered cultures. Eisler calls these societies “Partnership cultures.” Every one of these societies was eventually overtaken by invaders that brought aggression and the institution of social hierarchies. Eisler calls these societies “Dominator cultures.”  Eisler points out the...

Even in a virtual world, you still sweat. That's why it's important to keep your HMDs clean, especially if there's multiple users. Cleanbox devised UV light technology for just such a purpose, then found a higher calling during the Coronavirus. Alan: Hey, everyone. Alan Smithson here, with the XR for Business podcast. Today, we're speaking with Amy Hedrick, co-founder and CEO of Cleanbox, a smart technology hygiene company that's providing hospital grade decontamination of shared hardware, which I guess we can all agree right now, is very necessary in the current situation. In this podcast, we'll also learn how the team at Cleanbox is helping hospitals maintain mask hygiene. All that and more, coming up next on the XR for Business podcast. Amy, welcome. Amy: Thank you, Alan. It's great to be here. Thank you so much for taking time. I know you are crazy busy, working probably 20 hour days right now. You are on the front lines, bringing hygiene in a time where it could not be more important. So thank you for joining us and taking the time. Amy: It's my pleasure. I'm happy to do it. And you're right. It is very timely. Everybody's focus right now -- globally -- is on hygiene and public safety and public responsibility, and how we can better stay safe when we're able to go back out in the world. Alan: Absolutely. So I'm going to get right into it. I know you were working with the VR community very heavily, but I think right now this is just kind of top of mind with everybody. So maybe in your own words, you can explain what Cleanbox Technologies does. Amy: Sure. Well, OK, so Cleanbox technology provides hospital grade decontamination of shared hardware. We designed our core technology with-- actually with XR in mind, with the idea and the belief that virtual and augmented reality had great potential in terms of business and enterprise purposes, as well as in healthcare, and of course, entertainment. Seeing the value there and thinking ahead of what would be the pain points that would prevent a successful global deployment, or a successful corporate deployment, and adequate actual consumer adoption. Few years ago, thinking back on how we would be able to meet some of those pain points and eliminate them and lower the barrier of entry, hygiene seemed to be one of those things that was easy to forget. So with XR technology, it's so sexy and there's a lot of very interesting and cool and unique things you can do with it. So the logistics sometimes gets gets a little bit lost. We came at the XR community from the point of risk mitigation. How could we reduce the risk of contagion transfer and thus some detrimental event happening within the industry? And we've grown since then. Alan: So right now it's an interesting time, because we're all stuck at home. So things like location based entertainment facilities are empty. Where is your business coming from now? I know you-- from speaking with one of your advisors, Terry Schussler, that you're booming right now. You can't fulfill the orders fast enough. Where's this business coming from, if it's not coming from location based entertainment? Amy: Well, we've always been addressing multiple markets at once. Location based entertainment is, of course, first and foremost in people's minds because that's -- I guess -- the best education for the average consumer into what immersive technology can do. So it's-- and it's very dear to my origins and we definitely take care of the LB community. On that note, I would say that there are plenty of organizations looking forward to the day that they can reopen, and realizing that not only just the idea of hygiene, but actual hygiene is really critically important to reopening those busine

Even in a virtual world, you still sweat. That’s why it’s important to keep your HMDs clean, especially if there’s multiple users. Cleanbox devised UV light technology for just such a purpose, then found a higher calling during the Coronavirus. Alan: Hey, everyone. Alan Smithson here, with the XR for Business podcast. Today, we're speaking with Amy Hedrick, co-founder and CEO of Cleanbox, a smart technology hygiene company that's providing hospital grade decontamination of shared hardware, which I guess we can all agree right now, is very necessary in the current situation. In this podcast, we'll also learn how the team at Cleanbox is helping hospitals maintain mask hygiene. All that and more, coming up next on the XR for Business podcast. Amy, welcome. Amy: Thank you, Alan. It's great to be here. Thank you so much for taking time. I know you are crazy busy, working probably 20 hour days right now. You are on the front lines, bringing hygiene in a time where it could not be more important. So thank you for joining us and taking the time. Amy: It's my pleasure. I'm happy to do it. And you're right. It is very timely. Everybody's focus right now -- globally -- is on hygiene and public safety and public responsibility, and how we can better stay safe when we're able to go back out in the world. Alan: Absolutely. So I'm going to get right into it. I know you were working with the VR community very heavily, but I think right now this is just kind of top of mind with everybody. So maybe in your own words, you can explain what Cleanbox Technologies does. Amy: Sure. Well, OK, so Cleanbox technology provides hospital grade decontamination of shared hardware. We designed our core technology with-- actually with XR in mind, with the idea and the belief that virtual and augmented reality had great potential in terms of business and enterprise purposes, as well as in healthcare, and of course, entertainment. Seeing the value there and thinking ahead of what would be the pain points that would prevent a successful global deployment, or a successful corporate deployment, and adequate actual consumer adoption. Few years ago, thinking back on how we would be able to meet some of those pain points and eliminate them and lower the barrier of entry, hygiene seemed to be one of those things that was easy to forget. So with XR technology, it's so sexy and there's a lot of very interesting and cool and unique things you can do with it. So the logistics sometimes gets gets a little bit lost. We came at the XR community from the point of risk mitigation. How could we reduce the risk of contagion transfer and thus some detrimental event happening within the industry? And we've grown since then. Alan: So right now it's an interesting time, because we're all stuck at home. So things like location based entertainment facilities are empty. Where is your business coming from now? I know you-- from speaking with one of your advisors, Terry Schussler, that you're booming right now. You can't fulfill the orders fast enough. Where's this business coming from, if it's not coming from location based entertainment? Amy: Well, we've always been addressing multiple markets at once. Location based entertainment is, of course, first and foremost in people's minds because that's -- I guess -- the best education for the average consumer into what immersive technology can do. So it's-- and it's very dear to my origins and we definitely take care of the LB community. On that note, I would say that there are plenty of organizations looking forward to the day that they can reopen, and realizing that not only just the idea of hygiene, but actual hygiene is really critically important to reopening those busine

On the thirteenth installment of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger speaks with Traci Adedeji, the AIO program lead at AIPSO and president elect of the Rhode Island Chapter of the CPCU Society, in a wide-ranging interview about her unique role, her unconventional journey into the insurance industry, and so much more. Traci espouses the importance of establishing mentoring relationships at work and shares some advice on how to foster a very strong professional network on LinkedIn. Check the links in the show notes to connect with her and find out more about the CPCU Society!Connect with Traci on LinkedIn.http://bit.ly/2T9giYRFind out more about the CPCU Society on their website. They're also on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook. Links in order, beginning with their website:https://bit.ly/3cWpbh7https://bit.ly/3giUQeGhttps://bit.ly/2WUwfFuhttps://bit.ly/3e6nON4Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org:https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach Nunn. Now, listen here. Y'all know what we're trying to do. We're trying to build, inspire, encourage, empower, all on a platform that affirms black and brown experiences in corporate America. And it's interesting because as I came up just kind of coming into myself as a professional, I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me in consulting. I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me in human resources either. But when I would come across someone who looked like me doing something I wanted to do, it gave me encouragement. It gave me a stronger sense of hope that I could do it too, and so it's with that that we're really excited to talk to y'all about and bring you another entry, actually, into our See It to Be It series. So the next thing you're gonna hear is an interview between Amy C. Waninger, a guest on the show, a member of the team, and the author of Network Beyond Bias, and a leader who just happens to be an ethnic minority. In fact, yo, Sound Man, give me some air horns right HERE for my leaders. [he complies] Yo, and give me some more air horns right HERE [he complies again] for the See It to Be It series. So catch y'all next time. I know you're gonna enjoy this. Peace.Amy: Hi, Traci. Thank you so much for joining me today.Traci: Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm honored that you asked me to join you.Amy: Well, I am excited, because you and I have worked together before on committees and projects, but never in the same company, although we are at least in part in the same industry, in the insurance industry. And so I was wondering if you could tell me just a little bit--because your job title is program manager, but a lot of people who are not in a project management space or in a corporate space with a lot of projects may not understand what a program manager does, so can we just start there with kind of what is that job?Traci: Okay. So technically it's "program lead." I work for AIPSO, which is not an insurance company, but we provide services to the insurance industry. So the easiest example that I can offer for what we do would be let's say that in the state of Rhode Island, most--every state actually has a mechanism to handle what's called residual market business for automobile insurance, because in just about every state you have to have automobile insurance to be able to drive. So what happens is that, you know, if Allstate writes 40% of all of the standard automobile business in a state, the state will say, "Well, you also have to write 40% of the residual market business in that state," and--Amy: And the residual market is typically, like, really high-risk drivers that couldn't get insurance other ways, right?Traci: Essentially--exactly, people who are unable to get insurance through the standard market for a variety of reasons. So what Allstate might say is, "We know we have to write this business, but we really don't want to program our systems to handle this business. We don't want to hire people to handle this business that's underwritten and processed a little bit differently than our standard business, so what we're gonna do is we're gonna hire AIPSO or a company like AIPSO to handle it on our behalf." So that's probably the cleanest example I can give of what we do. There's some variations on the ways those different mechanisms work, but that's probably the clearest example. As the program lead, my responsibility is a little bit of underwriting, a little bit of program or project work. If we have to implement changes in the system, I'd be involved in the business requirements and working with the technical folks to make sure that our systems can accomodate what it is that we need to do from an underwriting and processing perspective.Amy: Thank you for that. I appreciate that. So how did you get involved in the insurance industry? Because I'm guessing, based on all of the people I've talked to in the insurance industry, that when you were 5 years old and, you know, you went to a family event and Grandma said, "And Traci, what do you want to be when you grow up?" You probably didn't say, "I want to be an insurance program lead." [both laugh]Traci: You are absolutely correct, although I do love insurance so much that I think we have to get to a point where, especially little brown boys and girls say, "We want to work in insurance." I was--I'm 54 years old. I'll be 55 in April. And when I was 16 years old, I was a teen mom, and when I was 17 years old I had another baby. So here I am, two children, college dropout, and my parents said, "You gotta get a job. You gotta do something to take care of your babies." So I got a job working at an insurance agency as a file clerk, and one day everybody was busy, the phone rang, I answered the phone, and it was a very simple call that I was able to answer because I had been listening to the people who were customer service representatives, so I just handled the call. I got promoted to customer service [?], and this was in 1984, and just worked my way up. I went from working on the agency side of the business to the company side of the business, as an assistant underwriter to an underwriter to an underwriting manager in different companies around the New York City area. In 2007, I thought I was in love, [laughs] and actually left the industry and moved from the New York City area to Rochester, New York. That relationship and the business that we were trying to build together in a different industry didn't work out, and I had to get a job, and insurance was all I knew at that point, 'cause at that point I had worked in the industry for over 20 years. So I came to Amica in Rochester, moved to Rhode Island, and, you know, Amica is an amazing place to work. I was very happy working there, but I got a call one day from a recruiter--that's what happens when, you know, people have your information out there when you're networking, and the gentleman said, "I've got this position I'm trying to fill. Do you know anyone who would be interested?" And when I looked at it, it looked like it was the perfect storm of everything that I'd learned to do in all of the different positions that I'd had in insurance. So I went on to interview and I said to myself, "Okay, I really don't want to leave Amica [?], but, you know, this is a really cool opportunity." So I had a number in my mind. I said, "Okay, if they come back at that number, that's gonna be the universe telling me that this job is for me." I interviewed on a Wednesday, and on Friday I got an offer at the exact number that I had in my mind.Amy: That's amazing. So I always tell people, "When a recruiter calls, answer, because you never know what's waiting on the other side of the phone for you," and if not for you, then someone that you know, right? You may think, "Oh, I have no interest in that whatsoever, but I know someone," and if you can connect those two people, you've just created something amazing for someone else.Traci: Exactly, which was also the relationship with that recruiter, because if you then get to the point where you legitimately are looking for a position, they're gonna remember how you helped them out when they were trying to place folks and they're gonna do their best for you.Amy: Absolutely. And sometimes you even get a little referral bonus out of it if you--[both laugh] if you, you know, send them to somebody that they can place. So I've had that work out for me too. I was never expecting it, but when it happened it was always nice. So you've already told me about the different types of positions that you've held in the industry, but, you know, you came into this industry kind of by chance, right? You just happened to get a job at an agency. What has been the biggest surprise to you about working in insurance that you didn't realize as someone from outside?Traci: This is something that I've known for a while, but I think the thing that solidfied my interest in insurance and was my "a-ha" moment was when I started studying insurance, when I started studying--I actually started studying for my CPCU, which is, as you know, a professional designation in the industry. I started studying for my designation in 1992, and in studying insurance I came to have an appreciation for first of all how important insurance is, but also how diverse the industry is. Pretty much any discipline that you would be interested in studying, there is a job for you in the insurance industry, and that is I think the coolest thing about insurance.Amy: Yeah, I had a similar experience. So I came into the insurance industry as an IT professional. That was my background. No insurance background whatsoever, but I just happened to be a consultant that got placed at an insurance company, and when I then later got hired by the insurance company, somebody told me about the CPCU designation, which--it stands for Chartered Property Casualty Underwriter. It's a professional designation that requires 8 courses to complete. You have to pass some tests, which thank goodness they're multiple choice now. They used to be blue book.Traci: [laughs] Yeah, I remember the books.Amy: No, thank you. I wouldn't have done it. I would've been too scared. But anyway, I started studying because, you know, I wanted to prove myself in this industry, and I wanted to frankly get the bonus that came with getting the designation that my employer offered at that time, and I was amazed by the scope of the insurance industry and the mission of the insurance industry, and when people ask me "Why do you love insurance?" And, you know, my focus of my company is not insurance-specific, although maybe it will be someday, but I think insurance is so fascinating because it does two things. It makes all economic investment possible. There's no part of the economy that insurance is not affected by or that it affects, right? I mean, every single transaction that happens is backed somewhere by an insurer. And the other thing we do in the insurance industry is we're there when people need us most. I mean, on somebody's worst day, we're there to help in, you know, ways that we can to make them whole and get them back on their feet, and I can't even imagine a more meaningful industry than that. So if somebody who has maybe never considered the insurance industry before and wants to learn more about the kinds of jobs available and how to get in--you know, how to kind of break into this industry, where would you recommend that they go?Traci: I would recommend that they get in touch with the local chapter of CPCU. I would also recommend that they get in touch with professional insurance agents and brokers, because they have professional organizations. Depending on where they are in their career, I would, you know, for example, if they're a high school or college student who's interested in the industry, I would look at internships with companies, with insurance companies. So those would be my suggestions. I do also know that through professional organizations, those of us who are invested enough in the industry and in our careers to be a part of these organizations have a tendency to be pretty generous people, so it would be pretty easy to even get a one-on-one informal, or even formal, mentoring relationship with someone who is in the industry that could offer some guidance.Amy: That's a great idea, and I know that there are a number of formal programs, but like you said, LinkedIn is a great way to just connect with someone if you have a target company in mind and you want to learn more about it. Most people are open to a phone call or at least exchanging emails and, you know, seeing what they can do to help. That is true. So, you know, the insurance industry has a reputation--and I won't say whether I feel that this is deserved or not, and you know exactly where I'm going--but the insurance industry has this reputation for being stale, pale, and male, and it's all a bunch of old white men, and that's it, right? And I know a lot of different industries suffer from this stigma, but for people who are maybe not older or white or men, what resources have you found that can help them kind of find their place in the industry, feel connected to others, feel a sense of community so that we can retain that talent in this industry and not lose it to somebody else?Traci: For me, I think back to a company that I worked for in 1990, and that was where I really got my start as an insurance professional and learned the most about the industry, but it's also where I recognized that at that particular company, in 1990, the early '90s, if I wasn't a white man with a degree from the right school, there was a very distinct feeling on how far I was going to progress in my career, and that was why I ended up leaving the company. I think that we--you know, it's great to join organizations, but I'm a grassroots kind of chick. I think that it is important to give back to each other, whether it's women, whether it's people of color. It's, like, whatever commonality you have with someone, if you see someone that's struggling or you see someone who's where you were previously in your career, you have a responsibility to reach out to that person and to offer them guidance if they're receptive to it. I'm the type of person that I have no qualms about reaching out to other women, to women of color, to just form those informal mentoring relationships, even if it's just "Let's have lunch once a month." There's people I don't even work with anymore. It just might be, like, an email or a LinkedIn message every now and then. So I think there's great value in forming those types of relationships. Yes, it's professional, but I think that if it's sort of a little more casual where you bond with that person and feel comfortable speaking with them, they're gonna be able to really guide you in a meaningful way.Amy: So that leads me right into my next question, which is I've noticed about you that you have a very strong professional network. I mean, you know everybody it seems like. [both laugh] And not all the same kind of people. Like, you really know people up and down the hierarchy. You know people across the industry, and when we were together at a conference last year I was just so impressed by the span of the network that you have, and so I was wondering what's your approach or what are your tips to networking and how do you stay connected with so many people with such limited time?Traci: LinkedIn makes it easy, because I can be on my computer at, I don't know, 2:00 in the morning when I wake up and can't sleep, and I can pop in and see what people have posted. I don't even have to tell you I absolutely adore your content, and every single thing you post I read and I share, you know, because I just find a lot of value in what you post, and I do the same for other people who are a part of my network. As far as I guess connecting with people, my advice would be ask. It's simply to ask. There's a woman who worked at a previous company, and she was pretty high up, you know, in the food chain if you will, and we didn't really--I mean, we had casually and in passing at work spoke, but it's not like we had a relationship. She ended up leaving the company, and I had no qualms about sending her a connection request on LinkedIn. I said, "Well, the worst that could happen is that she won't accept it, and if she says no I'm no worse off than I was before." I think that everyone has something to offer, regardless of their discipline, regardless of their position or title. I think that a lot of times we don't make those connections because we pre-judge and make assumptions. So I think that you just ask. Amy: That's good advice: So I have a friend in the speaking industry who says, "Every time you ask you risk getting a yes," and I really like that, and so I tried to kind of shore up my nerve to ask more, because I would not mind risking getting a yes.Traci: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I tell people this. I am by nature a pretty shy and reserved person. I grew up as the kid who got teased a lot in school and, you know, that whole thing, so not a lot of self-confidence in my younger years, but when you get to a point where you've got kids to feed and you recognize that the higher you achieve in your career the more money you're gonna make, you kind of put that to the side, you put your game face on, and you make what magic happen you need to make happen, and what happens is that as you practice that, even if you say to yourself "I'm gonna try to connect with one new person this week at work," "I'm gonna try to make a connection with one person who I've not had a connection with previously." The more you do it the more comfortable it becomes and the more confident you are in doing it.Amy: That is absolutely true, and I think a lot of people see networking as something very fake and forced and inauthentic, and they don't feel good about it, right? It kind of leaves, like, an icky, like, feeling about it, and when you approach it from, you know, almost gamifying it--I've done that in the past, right? "I'm gonna meet three people today. I'm gonna help three people with something," whether it's, you know, I'm gonna carry somebody's bag or I'm gonna hold open a door and say hello. Like, something, and so I think sometimes just kind of reframing how we think about networking can make a huge difference in our behaviors and our attitudes and ultimately in our results.Traci: Right. You actually said something that I think is very important, that networking and connecting with people if you treat it as "What can you do for that person?" versus "What can I get from that person?" Because people know when you're being fake. People know when you, you know, just have your hand out or you're looking for something, but we need to first of all not undervalue ourselves and recognize that we each bring something unique, but there's only one me. Nobody else brings exactly what I bring in this combination, and we have to recognize that that has value and that other people will see that value, and if we focus on "What can we offer others, even if it's a small kindness?" You know, those things, the universe will bring those things back to you.Amy: Absolutely. So I know that in addition to your day job you also volunteer with the CPCU Society's diversity and inclusion committee, and I know what a time commitment that is because I'm on the committee as well, but can you tell me how and why you got involved?Traci: I got involved because I was asked. [?]. I was new to Rhode Island, and I actually got--I'm on the board of the local chapter [?], and I was moving to Rhode Island. I said, "I don't know anyone. I want to, you know, meet folks, so joining this organization would be a great way to make friends and immerse myself even more deeply in my industry." So my request to volunteer resulted in me being asked to be on the board, and my relationship with David resulted in him asking if I was interested in being on the diversity committee. And it's a lot of work, but I think that it is important. I think the idea of diversity and inclusion has evolved so much over the years. When a lot of people hear diversity, you know, they think racial diversity, they think gender diversity, but there are so many other types of diversity, and it really I think is about making sure that there are opportunities for everyone, but I think it's also toward being a catalyst for the mindset that needs to happen so that opportunities are there for everyone automatically. We don't have to say, you know, "Oh, we have to go out and make sure that we have a person of color," there's a person of color because we just organically created a culture and a society with people of color in our community, so of course they're gonna have a role in our company, in our organization.Amy: Absolutely. And I tell people, "If you look around and you don't see someone's group represented, it's because you've got work to do to make people feel welcome and make people feel comfortable there." The responsibility is not on others to seek you out, right? And so, you know, I'm thrilled to be a part of the diversity and inclusion committee because I see that what's coming for us in terms of our talent, right, we have so many people on the verge of retirement in the insurance industry, and we just don't have the groundswell of interest among people, you know, that we need to replace all of that knowledge and all of that talent, and so I think, you know, we're gonna have to get beyond the "certain people from certain schools" and, you know, really reach out broadly and show people what we've got and why we're such a good place to have a career.Traci: Right. I think it's about building the excitement about the industry. You know, insurance isn't sexy to most people, and I think that, you know, the work that we do, particularly with the CPCU Society and the diversity and inclusion committee, is to educate the public about the excitement. Like, it's kind of our job to get them excited about insurance and to show them what next level opportunities there are. It's not just sitting behind a desk in a blue suit and white shirt and red tie. [both laugh]Amy: Absolutely true. So I wanted to ask you too about role models. Do you have any professional role models, and if so, what about them inspires you? Traci: So there's a woman--the woman that I mentioned that used to work with me, and I consider her a role model. So a few things about her that resonated with me... first of all, she's very tall like I am. [laughs] And that's something that it took a lot of years for me to overcome, because there's a tendency when you're quite tall to not want to intimidate people, so you tend to kind of--you slump a little, you try to make yourself small. So it takes a courage to just be, to stand up and just be who you are and recognize that you're putting that in your mind about, you know, your stature intimidates people, but she had such a grace about her and just a way of connecting with people. I don't know. She just had influence. She had such presence and influence, and that is something that I admire greatly and something that I work toward emulating.Amy: That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. So I hear men a lot of times will talk about "tall privilege," right? So if you're a tall man, and the statistics bear this out, tall men make more money than short men. They get promoted to higher positions. Like, we revere tall men in our society. Tall women have a different set of characteristics ascribed to them, and I am--I am not blessed with height. I'm only 5'3", but I can--you know, I can imagine how that might play out and how that might affect the way you show up. And, you know, if you're trying to make yourself smaller physically, you're probably also trying to minimize your presence in a room and minimize your contribution and not call attention to yourself and not let the best of you thrive in an environment. Traci: Actually it's interesting, 'cause I had a conversation with someone probably about six weeks ago about the idea that as a very tall not petite woman of color, if I am annoyed at work or if I feel very passionately about something, I feel that I don't have the luxury of being as vocal as someone who is not of my stature and my pigmentation, because it's perceived differently. Amy: If you're vocal about a frustration, I would imagine that the word that comes back to you is "angry" or "aggressive." If I get upset about something, if I'm frustrated and I express my frustration, I'm [BLEEP], right? I'm not angry 'cause I'm white and I'm not aggressive 'cause I'm short, but I'm [BLEEP] or I'm overreacting or I'm sensitive, right? And so I think that we all kind of operate in these constraints of words that are going to be used to describe us to kind of keep us in check, 'cause I don't like it when people say that I'm being sensitive. It's like, "No, I'm not being sensitive. You're being a jerk." But--[both laugh] that's not on me. So I can understand how that would be a struggle. So what advice do you have for young people of color in navigating those kinds of interactions? Because you want people to be, I'm guessing--I mean, we want people to show up authentically, right, but we don't want to lay a trap for people who the moment they speak up and advocate for themselves they get labeled in a way that's damaging to their careers.Traci: I can tell you what's worked for me. I think--to your point, it is important that you be who you are. So I'm 5'10". I'm gonna wear my four-inch heels because that's what I want to wear. If I think that something is not right, I am going to speak up about it. What I try to do is--and I'm just gonna say it, because I don't want to suggest that anyone be manipulative, but in a business setting, okay, what I do is I say to myself, "What is it that I want to get out of this exchange?" And, you know, know who my audience is and know what I need to say and how I need to say it to get what I need out of this interaction. You know, and I'm not talking about things where, like, I don't know, I'm being discriminated against or harassed or something like that, 'cause that's a whole different--and that's, thank God, never happened to me to my knowledge, but that's a whole other kind of conversation, but just an every day--you know, your boss has said something that you didn't like, or you've been assigned something that you don't think you should have to do or something to that affect. I think that it's important to always conduct yourself professionally. I think it's also important to separate your feelings from what the situation is, because just like the other person has their biases and this whole set of ideas and backgrounds that's influencing their behavior, so do we, and we have to recognize, like, the things that we're sensitive about. We have to recognize how we might have contributed to that situation, and we need to present our case in a constructive way. And it's interesting, because I have a 25-year-old daughter who's going through this at work right now, and what I've encouraged her to do is, you know, write down what you want to say. Ask your boss for a meeting, and even if you need to have that piece of paper in front of you, make your point. You know, if you feel a certain way, rather than saying, "You, you, you, you, you make me feel, you did, you, you, you," I would turn that around and say, "When you say or do, I perceive it as," because what you're then doing is you're taking ownership of your feelings and you're very clearly drawing that path from "This is what happened, this is how I felt, and this is how I responded to it. What are we gonna do now to fix it?"Amy: Mm-hmm. And so really what you're describing is emotional intelligence, and, you know, in my experience I've found that I am the most emotionally intelligent when I am the least represented in the room, and I am probably the least emotionally intelligent when I am most represented in the room, and so I try--once I recognized that about myself, I try very hard to think about the dynamics of a meeting or the dynamics of a conversation and "Do I need to kind of practice some of those skills because I'm dominating and maybe running over someone who doesn't feel safe to speak up with me?" Right? And so I think that if we can all do our part, right, to recognize when maybe we've got a little bit more influence or a little bit more social power and kind of back off a little bit and make some space.Traci: Yeah, and there's actually power in being able to do that I think, right? I think that when your peers see you navigate let's say a contentious situation, you know, if everybody's on 15 on a scale of 1 to 10 and you're on maybe 7 and bring everybody down to where it can be resolved, then people are gonna look at you as a change agent, if you will. So I just think that that's powerful.Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And that's leadership, right? Leadership is getting everybody to a better place together. So no, I think that's great. In the time that we have left, I'd like to ask you to finish my sentence. First is "I feel included when ______."Traci: I feel included when I am able to express myself.Amy: Oh, I like that. And then the second part is "When I feel included, I ______."Traci: When I feel included, I'm able to include others.Amy: I love that. I love having people answer this, because everybody answers differently, and it's always powerful. So Traci feels included when she's allowed to express herself, and when she feels included, she is able to include others, and I don't know that there's anything more powerful than that, to be able to widen that circle and bring others in. So that's fantastic. Traci, thank you so much for your time today.Traci: Oh, it was my pleasure. I appreciate you so much.Amy: Oh, thank you very much.

For those not in the know, The Mars Agency is an independent agency that combines the best of technology with the best human intelligence to provide solutions to businesses throughout the world of retail and eCommerce. And one of the Martians who leads the charge at Mars is Amy Andrews, the SVP Business Development & eCommerce. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Amy walked us through all the trends she’s been seeing in the eCommerce industry, including the changing consumer behavior, the rise of omnichannel experiences, and why companies that can crack the code of using voice plus video technology could see a huge payoff. Key Takeaways: There is an opportunity to merge eCommerce and influencer content in order to make a more relevant and personalized shopping experience The amount of data in the eCommerce world is overwhelming and can lead to losing the humanity of the work, which Mars tries to avoid by having a blend of the best technology and the smartest humanity Voice shopping still hasn’t reached its tipping point, but there is data that shows that voice technology is growing in the world of eCommerce For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible eCommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, this is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org and your host of this lovely podcast. Today we're joined by Amy Andrews, SEP of business development and eCommerce at the Mars Agency. Amy, how are you? Amy: I'm doing well Stephanie, how are you doing? Stephanie: Doing great, yeah as great as can be. So, when I heard of the Mars Agency, I saw that you called your, was it your customers or your employees Martians? Amy: We call our employees Martians, very lovingly. Stephanie: Oh man, I love that. I was trying to think of a name I wanted to give our employees, but nothing comes close to that. Tell me a little bit about the Mars Agency and how all that came about. Amy: Sure. So the Mars Agency has been around for over 45 years, started by an amazing woman, Marilyn Barnett, and really our focus has been on marketing to shoppers over that last, almost half a century. And Marilyn was really a pioneer in this space, she used to be when she started kind of the grocery model who would hold the box of laundry detergent as people walked by. And really just, yeah, and talk about women in business. She was just such an interesting leader and saw that as a marketing opportunity for brands at retail, and started the Mars Agency. And we have a long history in shopper marketing, and shopper marketing is really just marketing to shoppers so, as that has evolved and how people shop has evolved, we followed them and led them to all those different places. Stephanie: Got it. So are you working with large brands to kind of teach them the trends in the industry and how to market to, like you said, the shoppers, is that how to think about the Mars Agency? Amy: Yep. We work with a lot of large consumer package good clients so, like Campbell Soup, Nestle Waters, several others across top retailers. So Walmart, Target, and for me in the eCommerce space, Amazon is definitely a huge player. Stephanie: Okay, cool. And what is your day to day look like there, what is your role look like? Amy: So I lead our eCommerce team, which I mentioned some of the retailers but we really work across all eCommerce retailers and digital platforms. If you think about things that some of you probably use more recently than others like Instacart and other delivery services. We help brands market to their shoppers in those spaces, and really anywhere that you can buy a product online. Which used to be physical stores would convert it online, or your kind of Amazon, Pure Play retailers, and now as I'm sure you've experienced definitely, there's a lot of different options to buy online as you're scrolling through. Instagram you can shop now and kind of always be almost we're moving towards one click away from a purchase in any environment so, that's really what my team focuses on, for our clients, how do we help them market and ultimately sell more online? Stephanie: Got it. Has everything with COVID-19 kind of adjusted your strategy of what you're advising your clients to do? Or what kind of shifts have you made when it comes to that advisory role? Amy: Yeah that's a great question. I think we have seen a lot of data as this, sadly continues for us. But it has definitely had a huge impact on the eCommerce space, particularly for grocery, since a lot of our clients are the CPG packaged clients. We've seen online grocery projections in the last couple of weeks reach what we thought they would be in 2025. So there's been, yeah huge growth in this space, and a lot of new users to this space so, we know that's out of necessity, but again as this kind of continues, we think that a lot of these people, like 60% of people tried a delivery service for the first time in the last six weeks. That's a ton of new people who are buying new groceries online and, yeah there's been a lot of experience as I'm sure you've heard with, not being able to find what you want, or having slow delivery time- Stephanie: Yeah. Being out of stock of my favorite matcha tea, very disappointing. Amy: Out of stock, yes. Which is a little bit easier to deal with than toilet paper but- Stephanie: Yeah, I guess. Amy: I guess it depends on where you are on both with your supply but, no we've had ... Yeah, a lot of people are having to make different choices and having to try things but as this continues, I think people are forming new habits, and even new preferences, so it's definitely influencing how we're advising our clients and where they should invest. I think what's also interesting is because of a lot of those issues, a lot of our clients and a lot of retailers have just put their marketing on pause, to make sure that they can get things in stock, and for retailers to make sure that they're not price scourging or kind of promoting things in the wrong way that would send the wrong message. Amy: So I think what will be interesting long term is, some retailers and brands kind of catch that, and once they have products in stock, once, even Amazon this week has fixed some of their Amazon Fresh delivery issues. As those things start getting worked out, I think they'll be a lot more interesting marketing opportunities, especially as you think about all those new users, either to a retailer or to a brand. I don't know if you bought a different tea brand when you couldn't find yours. Stephanie: I did, I did. Amy: Yeah, a lot of people are having that experience right, so then it's like how does that new brand try and keep you and then how does your old brand try and get you back? So we're definitely working with our clients on all those types of questions. Stephanie: Got it. Do you think clients should be turning off their marketing budgets? As you mentioned, a lot of them are doing that right now, do you think that's a good strategy, or should they till be maybe thinking of ways to experiment because this is a whole new world, it might be actually a good opportunity to kind of experiment a bit without offending people if possible? Amy: Yeah, no, I think ... Yeah, I think it is a bit of both. I think initially, not just marketing but a lot of businesses and industries, just kind of paused to figure out and make sense of what was going on and determine what they should do next. And I think that was, probably a smart move at the time, just to not make any rash decisions. But we're definitely partnering with our clients now on, what is the right way to market. I think one of the trends that we'll see is probably a lot more regional and geographic differences. Like we in the Bay Area are still sheltering in place for another month. So, online shopping here will be very different than other states that are opening up. Amy: And, marketing to those people might be very appropriate now, and I would definitely recommend testing and trying things in that space. Stephanie: Got it. Amy: So I think it's going to have to be a combination. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. Do you see the companies you work with coming to you with similar struggles? Like other themes that you're hearing and any advice around some of those struggles that they're experiencing? Amy: Yeah. I think a lot of the marketing struggles, or just some of the struggles on a more macro level of just the unknown, especially in terms of timing and how long it will continue. And then we kind of have some of the same issues in terms of data, you know there's so much out there, like when you turn on the news, you see so many different stories and different points, sometimes it's kind of hard to determine what are the right guidelines, or what's the right data that you should follow. So, we're really treating this as an ongoing conversation with our clients. And it does differ by geography, it does differ by category or industry. So, I think taking a really custom approach and being able to adapt now, and have a strategy where you're also able to easily adapt moving forward, is going to be really important. Amy: We typically do annual planning with our brands, and we've already been talking, you know we're already in the stages of re-planning but, I think re-planning will be something we do all year now, I don't think it's kind of the pre COVID plan and the post COVID plan, I think it's going to be continuing to adapt. And the brands and retailers that are able to evolve in that way are probably going to be the most successful. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. It seems like a good time to kind of pivot in certain areas, cut projects that aren't, maybe as necessary, and thinking in a completely new light based on everything that's happening. What kind of things do you see being cut or changes be made in these re-planning sessions at these companies? Amy: I mean, the big question now, which the Mars Agency is tackling with our clients is, what might come back in-store and what might not, in terms of marketing and planning around that? There's the kind of legal or even not legal, but kind of the official guidelines or restrictions side of things, in terms of how people shop and how many people can enter the store at what time. But then I think there's also a very real consumer behavior piece of it. So, one thing that has happened in stores and that a lot of our brands being food brands, we've done is, things around sampling and trying new products. And whether that's a cooked piece of food outside of a wrapper, or a sealed up new product, I think in both of those cases, I don't know if for myself, and if I think about other shoppers, I don't know how eager we're going to be to take either one of those samples now. Amy: So, we're trying to rethink things like that that have been really traditional vehicles to encourage trial, how do we think about that in a new way? Either if that's a re-plan in terms of, what do we do with those dollars and invest them in something else? Or what I think is maybe more creative and exciting is, how do we think about sampling in a new way? Or how do we think about demos in a new way? And that's where we really see the in-store and the eComm world kind of colliding, and really creating some of these omnichannel is the word that we use a lot. Stephanie: Yeah. Amy: Omnichannel experiences, so that we're moving towards that anyway, and I think COVID has been an interesting tipping point to, as you said, kind of pivot and think about these things, and push ourselves to think about them even more differently now, to deliver the best shopper experience. Stephanie: Yeah, it seems like it could be with everything bad that happened, maybe a good forcing function to kind of push some brands into the eCommerce world who maybe weren't fully utilizing it before, or not at all. Do you see them being able to adapt to some of these changes that you're recommending them or being able to shift something that they've always been focused on selling in-store, always focused on someone having that in-person experience, like you said, whether it's a sample, a demo, have you seen them be able to pivot on to eCommerce, or being open to that, or even having the technology to do it? Amy: Yeah. I mean I'm pretty optimistic, so I think yes, I think all brands can do this and adapt and pivot and do so relatively easily. I think that was a big question before all of this, and the crisis was just how quickly should each, brand based on their category, be moving into this space? And a lot of brands were over-invested in eCommerce because they felt that that was going to be the future so they're a bit of a step ahead. And that doesn't mean that other brands can't catch up but, I think COVID has just been a kind of internal tipping point for a lot of organizations to think about how they're treating eCommerce and maybe prioritizing it a little bit differently. Amy: So, yeah for brands or companies who weren't thinking about it before, I would definitely say, now's the time. And, because the whole industry and the whole world is really shaken up, it's a great time to think about how you're treating eCommerce differently, and then within the eCommerce space, what we can be doing differently there as well. Stephanie: Got it. Is there anyone that you ever looked to in the industry, where you maybe point your clients in that direction of being like, hey, here's an industry leader when it comes to the checkout experience, or the shopping experience, or the unboxing, or anything like that? Anyone that you guys kind of look to as like a leader in the space? Amy: Yeah, that's a great question. I think there are a lot of examples of brands or retailers doing, I would say pieces of the puzzle really well. The one that comes to mind for me as someone who is creating a really holistic, best in class experience, is actually a retailer. I think IKEA does a phenomenal job in this space, in terms of just digital experiences. They have different digital technologies, and apps and platforms, and AI, and all of that, that is really just helping recreate the experience of going to an enormous, huge physical retail destination, I mean, I can't think of a more traditional shopping experience than kind of browsing through those huge displays in IKEA. Stephanie: So many levels, at least here in Palo Alto. Amy: Yes, definitely. I think of like a huge retail footprint that they've had to translate into a digital experience. There's one now where instead of IKEA saying, what's the best .com site or digital catalog? They are thinking what's the best shopping experience? And now you can as a shopper, walk through an IKEA store, through virtual reality, and pick different products, and then also using AI to see them in your own bedroom. So I think they've just done a great- Stephanie: Oh wow, that's awesome. Amy: ... Job. Yeah, I think I've just done a great job of thinking about it a little bit differently, and kind of doing it in a fun way that that's the biggest piece for myself as a shopper as well, that's sometimes missing from the online shopping experience. It's so convenient, and there are so many wonderful, wonderful benefits that come along with that. But you do lose kind of the fun of shopping, and browsing around, and I think IKEA has done a nice job of bringing some of that physical experience in a fun, very branded IKEA way, to their shoppers digitally. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. I think sometimes people forget that it's not just shopping and trying to buy the thing, but really, like when I go to IKEA, it's my day. It's a whole experience, I'm ready, I'm prepared, I've had my snack, and I'm ready to go through every single setup area to like look at their bedroom, and see how they set it up, and look at this living room setup and incorporating VR into that shows that they know exactly why their customers, at least customers like me come there, is to be able to experience it like I'm actually there. So yeah, that's great. Are you advising other companies to kind of, not only think that way but maybe moving into technologies like that, that they weren't utilizing before? Whether it's VR, or AR, or any of that kind of stuff? Amy: Yes. And I would say just even more broadly, we're advising our clients, and working with a lot of our clients right now on, how do we create the best digital content that's going to be relevant for an eCommerce shopping experience? So, yes that could be an amazing VR IKEA type experience, or that could be a six-second video on a product page, that tells you exactly what you need to know about the benefits of this new water that you're drinking. So I think it's about, what's right for those different brands and, then having that content strategy that then dictates what technology you might need to use to deliver it. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah, I definitely see that shift of a lot of companies, brands, turning into kind of their own media companies when it comes to producing their content, and focusing heavier on that, and not just on a paid strategy where maybe that's been, how it's been for a couple of years. Amy: Yeah, I think I've also seen brands, hopefully, using technology to deliver experience instead of just kind of using or testing, technology for technology's sake, or to have something new. So, it used to be QR codes, and then maybe some AR that just, is just kind of there for the fun, cool factor, that's interesting. In some cases, it's kind of fun, but I think if you're just doing it for the tech's sake, and it doesn't deliver a consumer, or a shopper benefit, it's really a fad and kind of dies quickly. So, we're always trying to think about, what's the need first, and then what can we use to deliver against that? Stephanie: Yeah, it's good to flip that mindset when it comes to that, because yeah I can think of, especially QR code, that's a good example. I've seen random places it's on there, like a cereal box or something that delivers no value, and I don't actually want to even see what's behind that QR code, it seems like it was just placed there because everyone was doing it. So- Amy: Right someone told that- Stephanie: ... You definitely- Amy: ... Told that marketer, "You need a QR code." And they checked that box. Stephanie: They did it. Amy: Yeah. Stephanie: Have you, when it comes to content, I know a lot of brands right now like you said, are focused on that and trying to make sure they get, of course, new customers in that vertical, and also make sure they put out great content. Have you seen any best practices with their clients around like you said, short product videos seem to really increase conversions where you know, like something on YouTube, if you've never been on YouTube maybe isn't the best way to go? Is there any themes around that? Amy: Yeah. I would say generally we always start with what's going to be the right message for the type of media, or for the type of tactics. So, you mentioned YouTube, that's obviously a very different format than say Pinterest, who's also having quite a moment with everyone at home looking for inspiration and recipes, and all of that. Obviously, that type of content you would develop for that would be very relevant to our brands, but also relevant to that platform and what we know people are looking for there. Yeah, I think we're definitely moving towards kind of more bite-size, or smaller content formats, in general. So definitely short format, we always give the example of, you don't want to have your 30 second or 67, 60 second, excuse me, TV spot and just use that everywhere, on your eCommerce sites or on your digital media more broadly, we want to be tailoring it for the environment. Amy: I think another thing that we're trying to do a lot more of now, in terms of a trend, is how are we leveraging influencer and user-generated content in a new way? So, if we talk about relevancy, especially in the eComm world where reviews are so important, and the new mom, you might go on and you're testing the reviews of a stroller, or a really important product for your baby more than you trust advice from your own parent, or from your mom peer group even right? So, people play a ton of influence on that, especially in the eComm space. So, thinking about how we merge eCommerce and influencers, has been really interesting and we've been working with our clients on taking influencer content from a particular shopper since we're in that space. Amy: So, how do you leverage Walmart influencer content on walmart.com, and Amazon influencer content on their site? And in doing so, you create an even more relevant experience for the shopper, because not only do they have those product details and reviews, but you've kind of put all that influencer content in one place, so they can have more ideas on how to use your products, or just more relevant images and messages based on people like them. Stephanie: Yeah, that completely makes sense. I wonder if right now, with how the market is, if it'll kind of give the wrong signals to companies. Like maybe, you have all these people at home so, if you see content is very easy to get right now, you have people maybe at home who actually want the longer podcast and the longer clips. Whereas after all this starts to calm down, I wonder if it'll be hard for brands to kind of pivot again, if all that reverses. And, all of a sudden there's not many consumers who want to create content for free anymore, and long reviews and, people want those shorter clips, like you talked about. Do you see any problems coming up by brands acting too quickly right now, to kind of pivot to what the environment is now? To then it reversing maybe again in a month or six months. Amy: Yeah, I think that's a good question, and that's why I think, as I kind of mentioned earlier, we're taking a proactive but kind of cautious approach. So, one thing we did for one of our brands was, we just went out immediately and pulled out content that, I don't want to say offensive, because that's almost too strong of a word, but pulled out content that wasn't culturally sensitive. For example, a group of people in a home that was more than 10 people. Stephanie: Got it. Amy: We went in and took all of that content down, you know, just to make sure we were being sensitive, and we were also being relevant. Even if someone wasn't particularly upset about it, and maybe they had no thought on it, but we want to make sure we're giving them the most relevant message of how our brand can be used in their lives. So I think that it is going to be an evolution, it's going to be really interesting to see kind of what behaviors stick. I think bread makers was one of the top terms searched on Amazon, the last several weeks. So, I wonder if we're going to get burnt out on making bread anytime soon. Stephanie: That does sound delightful but I'm like, yeah, I don't know how long that trend will last because, my mother-in-law makes bread, and man is it a process. Amy: Well, maybe she needs a bread maker. Stephanie: I know, she does. Amy: But yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see how much of those are kind of the COVID trends that then people get sick of it, or people want to, I'm not sure, maybe people will want to race back to the stores like you said, it'll be maybe really exciting when an IKEA opens, and you can go back in, and browse around and get your meatballs and all that. And I'm thinking people are going to do that in a different way. And I think that we're going to have to continue to evolve. So, that's what I mentioned about the kind of planning, I think annual planning is dead. I think we're going to be planning over and over again, if that's monthly if we can get kind of more on a routine, or maybe that's just continuous as things change, and as the news changes. Stephanie: Yep, completely agree. So, the Mars Agency has been around for almost 50 years I think, how does the company and the Martians of the company, recognize trends and then act on it quick enough to help your clients? Amy: Yeah, I think, I honestly think that's why we have been able to be around so long. In the marketing and advertising world, we're one of the few independents who's left, we're still family-run, the company is now run by Marilyn's son and Ken Barnett. And I think that having that independence, and having really just a lot of still that entrepreneurial spirit, has allowed us to really adapt as the industry has adapted and, in most cases kind of stay one step ahead. We talk a lot about our Martians, as you said, and really think that there's a balance between, our people and our technology. So, over the years we've, of course, as most industries have invested more in technology and data, and all of that, we've also really balanced that with our Martians and having, what we say is the latest technology and the smartest humanity. Amy: I think some companies, especially in the eCommerce space, because there's so much data there, and so many different tech platforms, I think if you go too far in that direction, well one, there can just be kind of data overload, and you're not able to find the insights and all the data. But two, I think you just lose a lot of that humanity, and kind of that person who we like to be who's saying, "Well, why is that the case? And, what does that data point mean?" And kind of taking it that step deeper, so that we can really understand what the human behavior is because I think that's where you have the best marketing ideas that really resonate with people, instead of just kind of trying to attack a data point. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. Are there certain metrics or data points that you've seen many brands use that you're like, you guys are all using this, but it actually doesn't really tell you much. Instead, maybe you should look at this instead. Amy: Well, because we're focused on shopper marketing and conversion, I mean, our ultimate data point is always sales. So we're always looking at, how many products were we able to sell as a result. Along with that though, you obviously want to understand what other impact you might have had on engagement. Or, in some cases, there are other circumstances that are affecting sales that are out of our control. We, of course, want to measure all the other media metrics as well. I think to answer your question on, are there certain metrics that brands are looking at that they shouldn't? I don't know if I would say you shouldn't look at this, but I think a lot of brands are placing a disproportionate kind of weight in the eCommerce based on their ROAS or their return on ad spend. Amy: And there's just some interesting ... There are some ways that you can get a very high ROAS, and that a lot of media companies or retailers will say, you had a very high ROAS and it's typically because you are reaching people who would have purchased anyway. So I think that's one where, it does beg the question of sometimes having a person or maybe a smarter data set that's kind of suggesting, why is that the case? And digging a little bit deeper to understand the why behind that metric. Stephanie: Yeah, that seems like an easy way for someone to be like, hey, look how great those ads doing when you're like, all those people were already previous customers so. Amy: Right if you're ... Yes, if you're targeting past purchasers, you can typically get a pretty high ROAS so. Stephanie: Yeah, that's pretty funny. Are there any new emerging technologies that you're advising marketers to look at or other like eCommerce platforms that you're telling people to check out? Amy: I don't know if I would say this is an emerging technology, but just in light of all of the changes around COVID, I would say looking more at new delivery platforms or channels. And this is something that, we're just having early conversations with our clients on now. But, there are a lot of what used to be in the world of retail, relatively niche players You see a lot of those platforms having really explosive growth now, kind of during this COVID period. So it'll be interesting to see how that behavior might change over time. Amy: I think we're also seeing some really interesting partnerships, so you can have your 7-Eleven order delivered by DoorDash. Or you can make a reservation to shop at a local store on OpenTable. Again, those aren't new technologies, but I think it's kind of new platforms and new channels that will be really interesting to test and learn as we go, as you're suggesting, and then also as things, hopefully at some point, kind of start to normalize. Stephanie: Yeah, cool. And then how do you think about, I saw on your website that you were talking about getting the most out of voice technology and how to conquer Amazon? Do you think, I know voice technology, it feels like it's been trying to ... It's been like that up and up for a while and no one's really cracked it. Even when I was at Google, it still felt like they couldn't crack it. How do you think about incorporating that into what your clients are doing? And same with Amazon as well? Amy: Yeah, that's a great question and you nailed it. I think it has been growing, we have on my eCommerce team, a dedicated voice specialist has a background in user experience. And, similarly, I think we've had tons of great conversations around voice, we've seen tons of great data in terms of how it's growing, but I don't think we've reached the tipping point yet of voice shopping. I think it's still, some of the data and it'll be interesting again, to see kind of how this being at home more might change that. But, there are definitely different behaviors that have grown with voice more than shopping has. We're still actively pursuing and exploring that with our clients. Mars is the preferred Alexa developer, we also work with Google Voice as you mentioned. Amy: But I think it just comes back to, really the foundation of what we do which is, how can we create better shopper experiences, and voice definitely has the technology to do that. I think it's just about the adoption, especially in the shopping space. So to date, we've worked with our clients on, creating skills that can be useful to shoppers based on their different categories. But I think it'll be interesting to maybe see how COVID changes the voice space as well. Stephanie: Yeah, I could see that becoming useful, especially as the catalogs get bigger of what the brands are putting on their eCommerce sites. It'll be easier if you're able just to tell the website like, I want to find this, instead of having to go through the whole catalog and try and find exactly what you want, and it probably growing by 50% from the time you were there maybe two months ago if they can crack, getting the voice technology to actually work and be seamless, and not an extra step. Amy: Yeah. And then I think another thing that'll be interesting now is just, I even have to remind myself as we're talking because typically we think voice and we think, speaking into the speaker, but with the combination of voice and video. Plus people being at home and maybe wanting more, we know there's been a huge surge in recipe searches for example. I think having the voice plus visual is a different way that brands should be thinking about voice now, and something that we're working with some of our clients on. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. And what about the conquering Amazon piece? I'm only thinking about how that maybe has shifted a lot, especially lately because of everything Amazon is doing of like, only surfacing maybe essential things, and changing shipping times, and maybe kind of burying certain retailers if they didn't view them as essential. I could see a lot of people kind of getting scared about relying on Amazon as their platform to sell from, and maybe moving away from that and trying to build their own eCommerce store on their own, and just do their own thing. Do you see that kind of happening? Or what are your thoughts around Amazon? Amy: Yeah I mean, Amazon could probably be a whole nother topic or hour. Stephanie: A whole podcast one. Amy: Exactly, I'm sure there are millions. But, I think in terms of, we've been really digging into what has this last six or so weeks meant? And where have we seen new growth? Walmart.com in March was the number one downloaded app in the grocery space and surpassed Amazon for the first time. So, it's interesting to kind of see all these stats and you think, oh, maybe Amazon isn't as important. Amazon just still dominates the eCommerce space. Which is why you mentioned, we have it on our website. I would say even as of two months ago, people were using Amazon and eComm interchangeably, almost. Amy: So, it's great and it's exciting to see that, and as we have always advised our clients, we should think about this holistically across this space and across all different retailer dot-coms and delivery platforms like your eCommerce strategy should be comprehensive. But I don't see Amazon ever not being a component of that, at least not in the near future. There are a lot of issues now from a user experience, from a shopping experience, also as you mentioned with brands and maybe being deprioritized for essentials or not being able to market in the way that they have been able to before. But it still really is the lion's share, it's still seeing the most growth during this time period. Amy: So it's not, I don't think it's a place that brands can afford not to be, with the exception of maybe a couple of the really big ones. But I think the idea of trying to tackle eCommerce without Amazon, or without having a strategy around Amazon, and there's by the way, a bunch of different ways that you can do that, it definitely doesn't have to be every brand's number one eCommerce retailer. But I think it probably has to be part of the strategy, just because of the number of shoppers that are using that as their primary eCommerce destination. Stephanie: Yeah, agree. So earlier we were talking about brands creating content, how do you think about the intersection, or what do you advise your clients when it comes to the intersection of content management system, their commerce platform, and their CRM? How do you see that working in their space are any best practices around that or advice? Amy: Yeah, I think, I mean one is to be thinking about the total experiences we've been talking about, and making sure that, no matter what agencies or, in our case, we're oftentimes working with a lot of other agencies either at different parts of the funnel or that the brand is working with for different pieces of their advertising. A lot of our clients are large enough that they're hiring multiple agencies. So I think it's, having IT as planning processes that are very integrated, and making sure you're connecting all the different partners so that you can leverage all of the different content and all of the different wonderful assets. Amy: In terms of, what should the content strategy be, I think it comes back to, what's going to be best and what's going to be needed and relevant for the shopper in that environment. So, we're really working with our brands in the eCommerce space on, how are you creating eComm content that typically doesn't always exist in other brand channels? So, how are you creating content for your product pages with information that people need to know when they're at that point of buying you versus buying a competitor. If you don't have that right content, let's create it, we help our clients map that out on what's needed in terms of assets, and videos, and enhanced content, and all of that. Amy: And then really track that over time to make sure that we're constantly optimizing it. We have a new technology, an eShelf maximizer tool that uses data to look across different websites, and identify across thousands of skews for a lot of our brands, what product pages might have some issues or some areas of opportunity, and then we can fix those right away. And with the retailer's constantly changing their algorithms and limitations, and all of that. This is kind of a huge pain point for our brands so, even though we'll optimize content as brands change their packaging, or new products launch, there's kind of continual issues and continued opportunities to optimize. So we're using technology to make sure that we can stay ahead of that and be really proactive for our brands. Stephanie: Got it. Do you see them being able to kind of manage that in a way that stays organized? Because, I kind of view a lot of brands having their content management as one silo, and their CRMs another one, and their commerce platforms another one, it doesn't seem like they've been able to integrate like, well, here's how our content is affecting our customers and actual conversions. Do you see that kind of shifting now? Or are a lot of your brands already ahead and they're already kind of all intertwined, and they got it? Amy: Oh, I wish that was the case. No, I think, I mean, I think we have silos within the Mars Agency, I think most companies have silos, I think most of our clients would say that they have silos within their companies as well. Unfortunately, I think that is a reality so I don't want to gloss over that picture too much. I think it's about, how do you look for ways to work and collaborate across those silos, for more of a common goal? So, I think eComm has been a silo for a lot of brands today. We've kind of siloed it off and said, let's deal with that separately because we don't quite know what to do with it, or maybe it's still a little bit too new for our brand or company. Amy: And this is really a moment when I think we can be integrating it in, we certainly have done that at Mars. Our team is now integrated with our customer development team. So when we're working on a Walmart plan, it's not the Walmart in-store plan and the walmart.com plan, we're all one team. So I think hopefully, that would be an outcome of this time period is kind of breaking down some of the eCommerce silos. But I think as you pointed out, there's definitely still an opportunity for, I would say most brands, to kind of better connect. I think content and eComm are coming together much more naturally. I think CRM is still a piece that we could, as an industry, probably better connect to some of the other pieces. Stephanie: Yep, completely agree. Have you seen, like what do you think the first step is to that digital transformation? Or have you seen a company really do it well? Is it like start from scratch, throw everything away and start over? Or, how have you seen that work? Amy: I think that actually, most companies have kind of, that we've worked with, have kind of taken eComm out and brought it back in, or taking the digital team out and brought it back in. And I think that's actually an okay approach in terms of, especially where you are with your company's growth in this space, some kind of half joking that eComm has been a silo. But, in a way that's been necessary for some companies because, as eCommerce has grown, it typically starts off as an add on within a current team, and then as it grows, it kind of gets its own silo, or its own little team on the side, and then as they get big enough, they come back into the integrated team, typically the marketing team, or in some cases, the sales team. Amy: And I think that that makes sense because, as the space grows for different clients, it needs different resources. I think a lot of companies are going to be fast tracking that now, so they might skip that step of having the separate eCommerce team and just automatically integrate it. I don't think that's a bad thing, I think that could be beneficial to, instead of kind of separating it or starting from scratch, just integrating in from the team from the beginning. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. That sounds like good advice. So, do you see any disruptions coming to eCommerce? Like one thing I've been paying close attention to, or reading up a bit is about these pop up retail stores. And I think maybe that could be a trend that a lot of retail stores are closing down right now, and people might be scared to actually set up locations for 10 year leases, after all this dies down. So I'm wondering how maybe that could influence the future of retail and eCommerce. Do you see any disruptions like that that is on the horizon that you guys are looking into when it comes to eCommerce? Amy: Yeah. I mean I think there's going to continue to be a lot of disruptions, and probably a fast tracking of what would have happened anyway. So, some, as we've seen in the last several years, some really established big box retailers have closed down, or shut several of their locations, because that huge size of space didn't make sense anymore, and to your point that frees up space for other types of retailer formats. I think coming out of this that, one of the disruptions will be, what we go to a physical store for, versus what we continue to buy online. So I think there's going to be a lot of differences in those categories, and even in in subcategories within that. I think what's going to be interesting about the physical stores is just, how do we deliver an experience in those stores that is worth kind of leaving your house for? Amy: And I think some of the best retailers, and some of the best brands have been talking about that for years, right? How do we create a physical experience of our brand? If you think of like the flagship stores, that's meant to be bringing the brand to life and delivering on that experience, and then you think of retailers who have been improving their in store experience, to get people to browse other categories, or browse other sections. I think a lot of that was a trend that will now really be pushed and challenged, and fast tracked as we rethink about what that physical space means to a shopper. So, pop ups, as you mentioned, were great because they were delivering a different experience and that was a reason to go, see something new, or maybe see something that you could only buy there. Amy: I think exclusives will probably continue and be played around with in a new way in terms of what's exclusive online versus in store. But I think it's a little early to tell what disruptions are going to continue, and how people are going to use those physical spaces. I mentioned it earlier, but I could also see there being a big difference in geographies. The coasts have always been a little different anyway, but I could see the the retail experience on the coasts being a little bit slower to change at first, and then probably having more disruptions in the end. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. I can see also when they start streamlining the return process, I've already started see that at least with Amazon, where it's like, you don't even have to bring a box now or anything, just bring the good back there. Once that starts feeling easier, it seems like a lot of things could shift because, to me that's been the biggest hang up of ordering things online and, not knowing how to really return it, and not knowing if I'm going to feel like doing it, and keeping the box, and printing out the label and all that stuff. It seems like that could be a big shift too, and it's kind of already been forced that way over the past couple months. Amy: Yeah, no, that's a great example of now people are having to get creative in how they do things, both retailers and shoppers. And also, just as you try things and get used to it, you might realize that the return process wasn't as bad as you thought. Or the delivery window that your groceries came was actually more convenient than what you'd wanted before. So, I think some of those habits are going to change, which is always interesting to see, because now we're still in kind of the survey phase of, what do you predict that you're going to do? Or will you use this service again? And it's always interesting of course, to see what people say versus what they actually do. Stephanie: Yeah. Amy: And I think just over time as we all keep doing this, we could say, we hate it and it's a pain. But some of that we're going to be adopting those new habits that will stick with us in the longer term. Stephanie: Yeah that'll be really interesting to see what actually comes from that. So before we move into our lightning round, is there any other thoughts you have for eCommerce leaders or trends or anything else you want to highlight? Amy: No, I think you've covered it. I mean, I think this is just such an interesting time for the eCommerce space that, if you talk to someone else next week, they might say something different, and that's what's kind of exciting about it is watching how quickly it's changing, and just really being able to adapt quickly to stay relevant. Stephanie: Yeah, that's why this podcast is so fun. All right. So the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where you answer each question in a minute or less. So you have a minute, you don't have to rush too much, but it's kind of whatever comes top of mind. Sound good? Amy: Great. Stephanie: All right, I'll start with the easier ones first, and then move to the harder one towards the end. What's Up next on your Netflix queue? Amy: Oh, this is the lightning round. Let's see. Stephanie: When your eight month old and three year old aren't hanging on you. Amy: Exactly. I have to move into my adult entertainment mode which also doesn't sound like the right phrase to use, so that shows that I've been watching a lot of cartoons lately. Stephanie: No more Daniel Tiger for you. Amy: I know I'm just glad that I can get off Disney Plus and over to Netflix. We are big fans of Nailed It, and with the at home baking, I know I'm a season behind on nailed it, so I need to get caught up on that. Stephanie: Cool. What's up next in your travel destinations after the pandemic is over? Amy: Oh, we were supposed to go to Vienna for my husband's 40th, so hopefully we can get that back on the agenda. But, next week I'm going to be driving from the Bay Area to Aspen to see my new niece so- Stephanie: Oh fun. Amy: It will be a road trip. Stephanie: Sounds awesome. What is the best shopping experience that comes to mind that you've had lately? Other than being in a store? Amy: Yes, I have not been in a store lately, nor had a good experience in a store lately. Well, just this week was the first time that I could get an Amazon Fresh order, and I am a pretty heavy user. So they had a lot of issues, so I was really excited this morning at 7:00 AM when my Amazon Fresh order arrived. Stephanie: Yeah, that's game changing. I love seeing them come up and deliver it. I'm like, this is nice. Not having to do it. Amy: Yes. Stephanie: What was the last thing you bought from an ad? If you remember? Amy: The last thing I bought from an ad. That wasn't one of my clients products? Stephanie: Yes, yep, that wasn't one of your clients [inaudible 00:51:31]. Amy: Yes, that I was actually buying as a consumer, let's see. I bought some Hannah Andersen Star Wars pajamas recently for my three year old. They're very cute and available now and actually they did arrive quite quickly so. Stephanie: Awesome- Amy: I'd recommend that for the- Stephanie: ... For PJ's. Amy: Yes for the toddler PJ's, they are great. Stephanie: Yep, I know all about that. All right, and the hard one, what's up next for eCommerce pros? Amy: Oh, that's a big switch from PJ. Stephanie: I know, that's why I saved it for last. Amy: Yeah, I think eCommerce pros are going to be ... Have much higher regard in their own industries, and have a lot more influence. So, hopefully what's next for them is being able to kind of take a greater role in that brand and marketing experience across retailers. I know we've talked a lot about Amazon, but I think it's, how do we integrate eCommerce and into everything that we're doing, and that should be really exciting for the eComm pros. Stephanie: Cool. Love it. All right thanks so much for coming on the show Amy, this has been fun. Amy: Thank you so much. Appreciate you having me.

On the twelfth entry of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger speaks with OJ Gordon about his entering the real estate industry from the insurance industry and the unique role he's taking on in doing so. OJ also suggests that people interested in getting started or learning more about the industry look into getting involved with the local chapter of their National Real Estate Investors Association (REIA). Check out the show notes to find out more!Click here to find your local National REIA chapter.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every now and then we try to mix it up for y'all. So look, dependency and consistency is really important, but even within those lanes of consistency, you gotta have a little bit of variety, you know what I mean? You don't come home and just eat the same thing every day, or even if you do--you know, you got a meal prep thing--maybe sometimes you put a little red sauce. Maybe sometimes you put a little green sauce. You know, you gotta just, you know, mix it up from time to time. Maybe sometimes you grill it. Maybe sometimes you saute. Maybe sometimes you rotisserie. You gotta just--am I hungry? Yes, I'm hungry, y'all. My bad. Listen, check it out. We have another entry for y'all from our See It to Be It series. Amy C. Waninger, CEO of Lead at Any Level as well as the author of Network Beyond Bias, she's actually been a member of the team for a while now, so shout-out to you, Amy. Yes, thank you very much for all of your work here. And part of her work has been in driving this series called See It to Be It, and the purpose of the series is to actually highlight black and brown professionals in these prestigious roles, like, within industries that maybe we--and when I say we I mean black and brown folks, I see y'all--may not even know exist or envision ourselves in, hence the name of the series, right? So check this out. We're gonna go ahead and transition from here. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and a super dope professional. I know y'all are gonna love it. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Hi, OJ. Thank you so much for joining me today.OJ: Hey, thank you for having me. Glad to be here.Amy: Oh, it's great talking to you again. So you're one of my Network Beyond Bias success stories because you and I met at my very first ever industry conference when we were both in Hawaii for the CPCU conference, and you were part of my "I'm gonna talk to three people today if it kills me" program, and we were both sitting front and center at a big session, and I think I turned to you and said, "Hi, you're sitting front and center too. We should probably talk," or something really dorky like that, and then we became friends from that. So you were one of the people that I kind of collected at that conference just because I forced myself to talk, and I'm so glad I did.OJ: And I'm glad you did as well, absolutely.Amy: Well, thank you. So we're gonna talk today about your entering the real estate industry--and the role that you're taking on is a little unique from what most people think of in terms of real estate, so can you tell me first what it is that you do, who you help and how you help them?OJ: Sure, absolutely. So my primary focus is helping people who have real estate problems. So folks who have repairs that they can't make at their home. They have code liens, tax liens, debt that they can't pay off, or for whatever reason they need to get out of the home that they're in and they don't have a solution that traditional real estate can help [?]. So for whatever reason they can't put this house up on the market. They can't make a profit selling that house on the market. Planning unique solutions to help them get to where they want to be.Amy: And so this is--like I said, it's kind of a special situation that you're creating, a special opportunity that you're creating for yourself. Can you tell me how you got involved in this and sort of what about it appealed to you?OJ: Yeah, absolutely. So as you know I work in insurance, and there are many times where you run into a situation where there's something not covered by a policy, and that could be a $10,000, $15,000, $100,000 problem, and when someone has an issue like that and they're not able to get financing or fix the problem, you know, it becomes a safety issue where they're living in a home that's potentially unsafe, they're living in a situation where, you know, no one should be living, and I got into insurance because I wanted to help people, and for the most part we can. There are tons of things that are covered, but in those situations where something isn't covered and, you know, there are people who feel helpless, they don't know what to do, and I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to [?]. So I started looking into different solutions, and I actually met a couple real estate investors who were like, "What? That's exactly what we're looking for." I was like, "Why would you want this house that has, you know, $30,000 worth of damage? There's a mortgage on it. There's all these issues," and they were like, "This is exactly the situation that we're looking for. We want to help people who are in these situations, because we want to get them living somewhere safe, and we want to take that home and put in a position where someone can live in it again." So it just really appealed to me. You get the opportunity to help people. You kind of get to be thrifty and take something that was broken and fix it, and just, for those reasons, this industry really appeals to me.Amy: That's fantastic. So I recently moved into a new home about three years ago, and it had a lot of problems that we weren't anticipating. You know, we knew it would need a new roof for example. We didn't know that within the first year of ownership we were gonna lose our water heater, our HVAC system, our sump pump, you know, and have problems with some other things, and so I can see how very easily, even without, like, a traditional insurable loss--like, you know, there was no fire, there was no flood, right, it was just wear and tear on a house that had not been maintained for 20 years--and, you know, it was expensive, and we were already sort of maxed out on the mortgage, and so, you know, we had to kind of take out a second mortgage. It's really embarrassing to say, but we had to take out a second mortgage to pay for, you know, several thousands of dollars worth of repairs to a house so we could live in it, 'cause you can't live in a house in Indiana without heat, right? You can't live in a house in Indiana, you know, that's leaking carbon dioxide into your house. So, like, we had real problems, and people don't have a lot of reserves. A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck. I know that's been my situation for most of my life. You know, it's really easy to get upside down really fast, not just in your mortgage but in your monthly expenses, and then to have somebody who can come in and say, "Hey, I can help with this." You know, "You're not gonna be homeless. You're not gonna lose money on your house." I can see where that would be a really welcome message for folks who are struggling or who are concerned about those things, because I can see how, you know, just a lot of people are just a few thousand dollars from disaster. I know I've been there many times in my life.OJ: Absolutely.Amy: So it's wonderful what you're doing. So what's something--I know you have already alluded to this a little bit, but what's been the biggest surprise to you about this industry? Something that you weren't expecting when you first got into it?OJ: So actually, the thing that surprised me most was, you know, you hear about real estate investors and you're like, "Oh, they're these slimy people and, you know they're just trying to make a quick buck and, you know, they're gonna offer you way less than what your house is worth," and that's kind of the stigma, and there are a few bad people who do those kinds of things, but for the most part everyone I've come across has really just wanted to help people. You know, whether it was me first getting into the industry and wanting to learn, people were willing to take the time out of their day to explain things to me, to walk me through processes. Their main focus is not how much money I've made, it's how many people did I help, and I think when you can go to bed at night knowing that your main focus is how many people we can help, you can sleep well, and it really kind of changed this thing in my mind. I was thinking, "Oh, man, I'm gonna be one of these slimy real estate investors," and really it's not that. You know, there are many times where a person doesn't need a real estate investor. They just need a real estate agent or, you know, they don't need either one of those things. They need help managing their cash flows, right? They're just spending too much on their discretionary spending, and that's taking away from their needs. And just being able to have those conversations--like, I went and got my real estate license also so that I could help those folks who need, you know, a traditional solution. And, you know, I partnered with some credit repair and some budgeting specialists who can talk to people about money management and focusing on taking care of their needs before going out and, you know, spending on things that they want, and that's really been able to help people, and it's just an amazing feeling knowing, "Hey, you know, I might not have made any money today doing this real estate investing, but I've helped someone, and this thing that I've done is gonna benefit them and it's gonna benefit their kids for years to come."Amy: That is wonderful. And it's always a shame to me when somebody says, "I was surprised by how nice people are," or how much people want to help, because we--I think so many industries have a bad reputation, right, that people are only out for themselves, you know, they're snakes in the grass and they're just waiting to attack, you know, and I have found too, as I've shifted my career a few times now, that there are always people willing to help. If your heart's in the right place--and you do have to be careful about it, right? Because there are some people who are out there looking to take advantage, but I would say probably 99% of the people that I've met at different stages of my career, when I'm ready to take on something new or make a jump or learn about something new, 99% of the people I meet are genuinely helpful, genuinely want to have a positive impact and, you know, show me something that will help me move forward. OJ: Right, and I've been fortunate to come across those people and really--in the real estate industry you kind of hear, you know, it's cutthroat, and I have not encountered that. I'm really--maybe I've been lucky. Maybe this is just the norm. But I've been fortunate to meet people who are genuinely interested in helping me to develop, helping me to learn what I needed to know so that I could help more people.Amy: That's fantastic. So if somebody's not in real estate today and they're interested in getting started or learning more, what resources are available to them or where would you suggest that they start?OJ: Sure. I would suggest find the local chapter of the National REIA. Here in Orlando there's CFRI, Central Florida Real Estate Investors. It's a nonprofit group that focuses on real estate investment education, you know? There's an ethics course that you have to go through, and it's really designed to help real estate investors who are starting off in the business start making the right decisions for the right reasons and to be well-informed, and it's a great way to just network and meet with people who have been in the industry for a very long time, meet people who have just started, and kind of be able to pick their brains and partner with them and figure out how you can come together to find solutions for folks. So definitely get involved with the local chapter of your national REIA.Amy: And REIA is a Real Estate Investors Association? REIA.OJ: Right. Correct.Amy: Okay. And so just to be clear about this, you didn't take--I'm gonna pick on Trump University. You didn't take a Trump University $30,000 real estate course to figure out how to do this, right? You went and talked to people who were really doing this every day who are in it for the right reasons, who are highly ethical and willing to help you without thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in investment. Is that correct?OJ: Absolutely correct, and don't think that you have nothing to offer, right? So my background is in insurance, right? Well, if you're buying homes you need insurance, so knowing about the insurance industry--and, you know, I've been an adjuster and I've been writing estimates, so I have, you know, building [trades?] knowledge, and, you know, bringing whatever you have from whatever it is you do can benefit you, right? Like if you're an accountant, well, you're gonna need to be able to keep track of a lot of moving parts and a lot of numbers, so that's a skill that's needed. You know, if you work with your hands--if you're an electrician or a plumber or a carpenter, these are skills that are needed to get these homes up to code and make them safe for people. So, you know, having that trade knowledge is something that's tremendously beneficial. So this isn't limited to, you know, white collar jobs, blue collar jobs, anyone can do this. Amy: That's excellent, and I love that message, that you bring what you have and you find a way to contribute and people are there to help you and guide you and partner with you along the way.OJ: Absolutely. Amy: And, you know, that builds such a sense of community in an industry, when you know that you can't know everything, right? The accountant is probably not gonna be the plumbing guy also or, you know, vice versa. So I think that's a wonderful message, and I think it's important for people to realize that so many skills are transferable from one industry to another, and it sounds like this is an industry where maybe more than usual skills are transferable in.OJ: Absolutely. Amy: That's wonderful. So what are your thoughts on where this is headed in the future? Is this industry gonna need more people, or do you see this as a short-term set of problems that maybe in five to ten years will sort of take care of itself? Like, what do you see as the talent needs going forward? OJ: So just like the market is cyclical, the real estate investing needs are cyclical, and so this isn't something that's going away. People need to live somewhere. Anyone can come across a real estate problem. Like, when I bought this house, Matthew hit in Florida and destroyed, you know, pretty much everything in my backyard, and I did not realize how expensive fencing could be.Amy: And you're an insurance guy. You should know how expensive fencing can be, OJ. Come on! [laughs]OJ: And so I had a huge lot, right--the house sits on a third of an acre, and most of it is the backyard, so I was actually deployed helping folks who had damages at their home and I find out "Hey, you know, your fence is down," and I have a pool so I can't leave holes in the fence because that is a huge liability issue. So I called around to get some folks to kind of get me an estimate, and the first guy called back and said, "You have 321 linear feet of fence and two gates," and I just knew. I was like, "Oh, man. This is terrible," and, you know, he quoted me a price, and, you know, if it hadn't been a catastrophe, that was not something that I would have been able to do. And so, you know, I know how real these problems are, these things that come up are. And the policy I had didn't have a ton of adjacent structures coverage, and so, you know, the policy was only gonna cover a small portion of it anyway, so I had to pay for that fence out of pocket, and if I had to charge that to a credit card and make those payments, that would have been tough for me. And so I realized just how tough it is when those unexpected events happen, and sometimes your insurance can't help you or, you know, the things that you were counting on just don't work out for whatever reason, and it's, again, just something that isn't going away. This is an industry that will be here. As the market changes the needs change, and so we'll be here finding solutions for folks.Amy: So I want to take a step back for a minute because, you know, insurance--and I've worked in insurance for 10, 12 years now, right, insurance is one of those things that people hate paying for and they hate using it, right? Because if you're using your insurance it means something horrible has happened, and it's something that we think, "Okay, I want my premium as low as possible because the threat of having a claim is a remote possibility that we don't really know how to calculate," right? We don't know how to calculate that risk. What are the odds that I'm going to use this? We're afraid to use it sometimes if it's, you know, a minor thing. Who can people--let's talk about prevention for just a second. Who's the best person for someone to talk to when they purchase a house or even if they're renting about what kind of coverage they need and what they should be paying for coverage? Because that sounds like a first step to preventing getting yourself into this sort of a financial crisis to begin with, right?OJ: Right, and so if you have a financial planner, that's someone who you should talk to. There are agents everywhere. Go talk to an agent. You know, I sold insurance when I first got into insurance, and the way I look at insurance is you pay me your premium and I give you peace of mind, right? So I need to make sure that this policy that you're purchasing is going to give you that peace of mind, and so when you're purchasing insurance you shouldn't start off with how much premium you want to pay. You should start off with "How much coverage do I need to have peace of mind?" Right? So if you have a home that would cost $300,000 to rebuild if there was a total loss, total fire, and you only have $50,000 of insurance, you do not have peace of mind. You are not going to be able to rebuild that home, right? And so you just want to talk to your agent and talk to your financial planner. Understand the costs, you know? You don't have to become a builder, right, but understand the costs associated with rebuilding a home or, you know, if you're getting an auto policy, right, if you cause an accident, right, there are financial implications. You could end up liable for thousands of thousands of dollars of someone's medical bills, lost wages. You could be hurt and not be able to work, right? And so these are situations that your agents and your claims professionals come across every day, and, you know, I've been on the liability side, and I've seen where someone, you know, got hit by an uninsured driver and had $10,000 of uninsured motorist coverage but $50,000 worth of medical bills, and, you know, they were trying to keep their premium low, and you're not doing yourself a justice by saving $20 in premium when that $20 in premium is tens of thousands of dollars of additional coverage, and you don't know when you're gonna have an accident. That's why people call them accidents. You don't know when you're gonna have a fire. You don't know when these unexpected events are gonna come. If you're purchasing a policy, don't do it because a state says you have to do it. Don't do it because, you know, your mortgage company is saying you have to do it. Do it because you understand that this policy is gonna provide peace of mind in a time where you need peace of mind. The stress of going through these things, right, is overwhelming sometimes, right? And just having, you know, a professional on the other end who can say, you know, "Hey, I know what you're going through. These are the things that are gonna happen and, you know, here's how we can help," is tremendously beneficial.Amy: Absolutely. And, you know, higher premiums don't mean better coverage. OJ: Right. Read your policy. [laughs]Amy: Read your policy, but not just that. Shop it around, right? Because I had--so when we moved into our house I went through the insurer that I had on our old house, and I won't name names, but we'll call them Company A, and Company A, my premiums on my new house were about $4,000 a year, and my coverage was I want to say about four... no, it was about $500 worth of coverage on just the house, and about a year later I decided I was gonna shop it just to see because it was coming up for renewal, and I got coverage through Company B, and Company B was $1,300 a year, and they estimated the rebuild cost of my house at over $700,000, and that's what they insured me at. So I was paying a lot more--I was paying three times the amount that I could have been for about half of the coverage with the first company versus the second, and it's all about how much do they know about your area, how much do they know about the kind of house that they're insuring, how much do they know about the risks and the likelihood of risk where you live, and how good is their math, right, when they're running those numbers, and so I think it really pays for people to talk to different companies and find out, because if I thought when I bought myself--I didn't pay $700,000 for my house, but if I had thought when I bought my house I needed $700,000 for the replacement cost coverage, I would not have insured it for $450 or $500,000, right? Because the other thing that happens that people don't know--and I don't want to go off on a big insurance thing, but the other thing that happens that people don't know is if you do have a total loss and you're under-insured, you don't get all the money your insurance company promised you at the beginning.OJ: Right. So there's that [?] percent co-insurance and [?] the cash value. Right.Amy: Right, so if you have a $200,000 house, let's say, and you have $100,000 worth of coverage on it, and you have a total loss, your insurance company will say, "Well, you know what, it's a lot more common to have a $100,000 loss on a $200,000 house than it is to have a $100,000 loss on a $100,000 house," right? "So we're only gonna pay 50% of your policy payout, or 80% of your policy payout, because you weren't insured to the full amount of your home." And so not only are you not getting the full value of your home, you're not even getting the full value of your policy at that point. You really want to make sure you've got full replacement cost on your home.OJ: Right. So, again, start with the amount of coverage that you need and then shop based on the coverage that you need. So compare apples to apples, right? 'Cause one company, like you said, could offer you--like, let's say Company A offered you $400,000 worth of coverage for the same $700,000, right, and then Company B said, "Hey, we'll offer you, you know, $700,000 worth of coverage for $1,000," right, you're getting the same coverage, right, but if Company A was saying, "Hey, $1,300 a year for $700,000 worth of coverage," and Company B said, "$1,000 for $400,000 worth of coverage," you're paying a lower premium, but you're also getting less out of the transaction, definitely. Your starting point should be "How much coverage do I need?" And then shop around, and always say "Hey, these are the limits that I want. This is the coverage that I need. How much are you charging for that amount of coverage?"Amy: Yep. Absolutely. Thank you, OJ, so much. That is so helpful, and I see several spinoff topics on this conversation, because I think it is important, and I think people really don't understand this. Insurance is kind of a black box, right? I pay a premium and then I pray I never use it, and we need to be more educated consumers about that, definitely. So I wanted to ask you a little bit, any other recommendations for our listeners about what they might want to learn about this industry or where they might go, you know? Articles or places that they might just show up and read or listen to learn more.OJ: Sure, sure. So there are tons of podcasts out there about real estate investing. There are seminars that happen throughout the year, but some of those seminars are thousands and thousands of dollars. I wouldn't recommend that you pay thousands and thousands of dollars starting off, especially not knowing if you're gonna dive in full-time, right? You don't want to spend $30,000 on something that might be a hobby, right? But just definitely reach out to folks. So if you get involved in your national REIA there are Facebook groups, and just reach out to folks who are in the industry and talk to them. I mean, the best value that I've gotten is just conversations with folks and learning things that I never would have thought about, right? I remember one conversation I was having with a guy named Bill Cook, who's a really successful real estate investor, and we were talking about mobile homes, and it was like, "Well, why would anyone want to buy a mobile home," right? And he shared with me that during the recession that was the best investment that he could make, because people were calling him and saying, "Hey, I need somewhere to rent, and I can't spend $700 or $800 a month. Do you have anything for $450?" And his phone is just ringing and ringing and ringing, and he had nothing in his inventory that he could rent for $700 or $850 a month, and then he got into investing in mobile homes, and he was able to now provide clean, safe housing for folks who couldn't afford $700 or $800 a month, but they could afford $450, and it was a smaller investment for him, right? Instead of buying a stick-built home you buy a mobile home, right, the costs are way different, and so he could make that work in his business model and help folks out who needed somewhere to live. And so, like, just having those conversations and understanding that, you know, you might have a preconception or you might be thinking of something in a way that is gonna prevent you from helping people, and just really having those conversations and being open-minded.Amy: That's fantastic. I would like to ask you to finish this sentence. "I feel included when ________."OJ: The people around me are laughing.Amy: Well, OJ, I can tell you that I am so happy to have you in my network and count you among my friends. I have so much fun talking to you, and I think the world of you. I think that you are on just this meteoric rise, and I expect great things from you. You're somebody that I want to, from the moment I met you I wanted to invest in you personally, because I wanted to see what you would become and what you would do in the world, and so I want to thank you for letting me be a part of your journey and thank you for joining me today.OJ: And I want to thank you for having me. It has been truly amazing getting to know you and seeing all of the wonderful things that you're doing and all of the value that you're bringing and all of the awareness that you're bringing just on the side. We had a conversation about intersectionality, and there was a talk on intersectionality here in Orlando, and I went, and, you know, I figured "I'm a person of color. I kind of understand other folks," and it was astounding how much I didn't know, right? And so just kind of--that conversation with you kind of inspired me to kind of go and learn about different groups and, you know, I actually had a mentor who identifies as a gay man, and I had no idea, and we were having a conversation surrounding intersectionality, and he confided in me, "Hey, you know, I've been a gay man for my whole life, and I don't share that with people because I've been ostracized." And, you know, here's a guy who's, you know, in his 50s, right, who doesn't feel comfortable being himself or expressing himself. And I had known him for quite a while and didn't know this about him, and it was kind of humbling to have him share that with me and realize that, you know, while I may have had my struggles, there are other people who are experiencing different struggles, and, you know, there are conversations that need to be had so that those people are empowered, right? And it was at that talk about intersectionality that, you know, we kind of talked about identity privilege, and I didn't realize how much identity privilege I experienced, and it was really eye-opening that, you know, here I am as a minority, but I experience identity privilege, and there are things that I need to do to empower those who don't have the same identity privilege that I do, and so I want to thank you for just bringing awareness to me and inspiring me to kind of go out and learn more, because it really is important.Amy: Thank you so much for saying that. I think one of those most powerful things that we can do as people, right, not as managers, not as coworkers, not as in whatever role but just as people, is ask questions and give each other the space to share, because it's in those spaces where we learn and we grow and we really build connection. And, you know, in the talks that I give I always tell people, "Look, if you think no one in your inner circle is LGBTQ, there's a really good chance you're wrong about that. And it's not that they're not there, it's that they're not comfortable talking to you about it." And the same goes for a lot of other identities too, right? You know, I know a lot of white people who will say, "Oh, I'm friends with--you know, I have lots of black friends," which is always a sign that they don't of course, but when you ask, like, "Who?" You know, it's usually somebody at work that they kinda sorta know, and, like, "Have you ever talked to them about their experience being black in the workplace?" "Well, no." I'm like, "Well, you're not a very good friend, are you?" [laughs] Wouldn't you want to know what that experience is like for your friend? So no, thank you so much for opening yourself up to those conversations and for sharing so much of yourself with me. I'm just honored to know you, OJ. I really am.OJ: Thank you. The feeling is very mutual, Amy.

Welcome back listeners to The Whole View, episode 41.! (0:27) Sarah corrected Stacy, this is episode 401. One of the things that Sarah is finding to be challenging during the coronavirus quarantine is the lack of things that mark the passage of time. Every day seems the same, which is disorienting. This time has been eye-opening to Stacy from a quality of life standpoint. If you missed the announcement on episode 400, this show is now The Whole View. However, it is the same podcast, just with a new name. This week Stacy and Sarah are going to jump right in and talk covid-19. Stacy is in week six of quarantine. If you are enjoying this show, please leave a review. And if you left a review when the show was The Paleo View, please leave a new review. This will help people find the updated show. Sarah has received some amazing compliments on the coronavirus podcast episodes that have aired so far.   Listener Comments “Thanks for all of the amazing actionable content during this health crisis! I’ve been tuning in to the podcast every week.” - Mariel (4:43) “I’m a long time listener, one of those who’s gone back and “caught up,” I know Stacy, but they were so helpful! I mainly attribute the fact that I’ve maintained control of my RA for 3 years without my double dose of DMARDs to you two! Saved my life! Thank you both for all that you do. It would be an honor just to be given a shout out on the new show: The Whole View, congrats! I can’t wait to hear the first episode!” - Amy “Thank you for all the energy and passion you put into every episode! I learn something new every time and I've even gotten my husband to listen along with me.” - Renee   Listener Questions Sarah wanted to give a special shoutout Charissa who does all the pre-show prep and is Sarah's, Chief Operations Officer. (6:47) Charissa goes through all the listener questions and the podcast inbox and organizes them into topic groups. She then helps Stacy and Sarah put together their recording calendar, and puts a ton of time in the pre-production projects. Sarah wanted to say a huge thank you for all that Charissa does. She was a huge help in collecting and organizing the questions for this week's show. The first question is, what is our way out? The scale of shutdowns globally is unprecedented. This is unique in human history. These shelter-in-place orders have had a huge effect on the global economy, with unemployment numbers extremely high. All of this has been done to flatten the curve, which Sarah explained in greater detail. One of the big challenges with this virus is that it has a high hospitalization rate. This virus is highly infectious and is a strain on the healthcare system. Because this is such a challenging virus and we don't have a treatment yet, our only option has been to quarantine. So the question is, how do we get back out? And life as normal? The way to get beyond this is that we need one of three things to happen. The first thing, which will be the most effective, is herd immunity. Sarah broke down the way that herd immunity works. In the absence of herd immunity, the other big thing that would get us back to life as normal would be an effective anti-viral treatment. There is also the option of using medications that would prevent the virus from infecting a person. However, this is much less likely since there aren't many drugs that are effective that do this. In the absence of those two options, the other option is to do these shutdowns and quarantines long enough to ramp up testing capabilities. There were countries that ramped up testing at the beginning who were able to successfully slow the spread of the virus.   More on the Three Options There are challenges with each one of these three cases, which Sarah will breakdown further. (18:42) None of these scenarios are fast. The fastest way out is probably the discovery of an effective antiviral. There are a number of candidate drugs that are being tested. Many have been shown to kill the coronavirus in test tubes. However, this doesn't mean that the drug will successfully reach the part in our body that would make it effective. Understanding safe dosages is critical. We actually don’t have many truly effective antivirals. For example, Tamaflu can decrease the duration of influenza illness by 30% to 40%, and decrease flu severity by about 40%. However, it only works if taken in the first 36 to 48 hours of illness. As commonly taken, it shortens the duration of flu by about a day. It has not been proven to have a positive impact on hospitalizations or mortality of seasonal, avian, or pandemic influenza. There are some good examples of effective antiviral treatments though. The best example we have is the antiviral cocktail that is given to HIV positive patients. Sarah explained the way in which the HIV cocktail works in the body. We do have these examples of antivirals that can be very effective.   The Need for Data However, what we need right now for covid-19 is randomized controlled, double-blind clinical trials of the antivirals that we already have. We need to look for drug combinations, and we need to establish risk profiles. Safety is a huge concern with antivirals in general. Many have high adverse reaction rates, which is why we don’t have an antiviral for the common cold. Data is needed to make decisions. The hydroxychloroquine initial trial was unblinded, uncontrolled in 20 patients, and excluded severe illness from the study. All these types of trials are supposed to do is indicate whether something is worthy of further study. Sarah shared more on this study out of Brazil. Preliminary findings suggest that the higher CQ dosage (10-day regimen) should not be recommended for COVID-19 treatment because of its potential safety hazards. Such results forced us to prematurely halt patient recruitment to this arm. Given the enormous global push for the use of CQ for COVID-19, results such as the ones found in this trial can provide robust evidence for updated COVID-19 patient management recommendations. There is promise with antivirals as a treatment for covid-19. However, it is very important to take preliminary studies with a very large grain of salt. We need bigger studies to prove efficacy and safety, which takes time. Matt made a very rare appearance on the show to add this breaking update to Sarah's recommendations. (31:55)   Vaccine Development More tricky than antivirals is vaccine development. One of the things that is really important to understand is that vaccine development, especially for a new virus, takes years. The fastest vaccine that has ever been developed was for mumps, which took four years. The Ebola virus vaccine was a close second and took five years to develop. We are trying to develop a vaccine for the coronavirus in a year, which is unrealistically optimistic, given the challenges with developing vaccines against other members of the coronavirus family. Covid-19 is the seventh identified coronavirus that infects humans. The early vaccine development for 2002 SARS cause vaccine-enhanced immunity in rodents. Not all antibody responses are protective. By the time they had a candidate, researchers were unable to test their SARS vaccine candidates for effectiveness in humans because they would have had to inoculate a population that was exposed to SARS, and the disease was effectively wiped out using public-health measures before that could happen. What is happening now with covid-19, is that vaccine research is picking up where SARS vaccine research left off. We need to understand the antibody response to covid-19. There have been some studies that show that the bodies producing several different types of antibodies when it is infected with covid-19. However, they are not all neutralizing antibodies. The chances of a vaccine causing vaccine enhanced infection are still there with covid-19. Sarah shared information from this study.   The Complexity of Vaccine Development It will be complex to develop an effective vaccine against the novel coronavirus. There are many different vaccines that are in phase-one clinical trials. We will need to do the human trials at the same time as the animal trials in order to expedite the timeline. It will also take a huge investment in mass-producing vaccines. Once a vaccine is proven to be effective, it takes six months to a year to mass-produce that vaccine to the level that we will need to achieve herd immunity. We hope that the SARS vaccine research was progressed far enough that picking up from that for this related virus will help expedite the vaccine development. Stacy shared her appreciation for these facts. These details help to give perspective.   Natural Immunity There is this whole other side of it, which is developing natural immunity by people getting infected. (41:25) However, there are still some questions as to how immune people are after getting the disease and how long that immunity lasts. Sarah shared information on this study out of China on antibodies in coronavirus cases. There is still this piece of science that needs to be figured out and researched. We need to understand what kind of antibodies need to be produced by our bodies to be immune, and how much. Once we know that, we need to know how long those are going to last. One of our ways through this is by ramping up testing, which needs to be done on both active infections and immunity. There have been a ton of antibody tests that have been rolled out. This is interesting to Sarah because tests have been introduced without basic science to interpret the data. Tests don’t have high enough specificity or sensitivity. Poor sensitivity means false negatives, poor specificity means false positives.   Testing We need the antibody tests to be better, and we need the diagnostic tests to be a rapid test. (47:33)  Right now, testing is taking five to twelve days to get results back. We need a diagnostic test that acts very much like the rapid strep test. Once we have the testing capabilities and we have a good enough handle with the shutdown, then we could potentially start returning to a more normal life without waiting for a vaccine or antiviral. This requires a huge amount of tests. Sarah explained that way widespread frequent testing would help. However, contact tracing presents privacy issues with smartphone tracking. This is a resource-intensive process. Stacy added that she loves the idea of using tech for these purposes! Sarah shared more on the flaws in this approach. We need to be able to take the human resources out of contact tracing, and crazily ramp up testing. We need to be testing as many people per day as we have tested total in America so far. Then we need to do these targeted quarantines based on who has been exposed. We also need to better protect our healthcare workers. While the mortality rate from covid-19 increases dramatically with age, the hospitalization rate is still really high in young people. The rate of severe illness requiring hospitalization is not that different between young, healthy people and either people with preexisting conditions or who are older.   Continuing Our Work Together We have to figure out how to carefully return to life as normal bit by bit so that we don't completely overwhelm hospitals.  This is the part that is painful and heartbreaking for Stacy to deal with. Thinking about those healthcare professionals and those other people on the frontlines and the sacrifices that they are making. We are coming together as a community to help those people who are still fighting that fight and who are risking their lives. Stacy focuses on these realities, which makes all the other frustrations worth it. She has so much to be grateful for, and these are the pieces she focuses on. We can all find something to give us that compassion for those who are fighting on the frontlines.  Sarah shared on the struggle of sympathizing with those on the front lines who are facing a very different set of challenges while trying to also process and address your own personal challenges. It is very important to give people permission to know that their struggles are valid.  Do not dismiss the challenges that each one of us are having. Also, work to maintain awareness about the things that deserve gratitude. From a mental health perspective, it is really important to be able to appreciate that we have these challenges. Then be able to apply a solution-oriented mindset to them. If you are feeling frustrated and overwhelmed, something that has given Stacy hope and something to look to is donating time, resources, and money when they can.   Reinfection The other group of questions that have come up has to do with reinfection. (1:02:44) There have been some reports out of South Korea and China where they have people who tested as negative and then were rehospitalized a couple of days later after testing positive. It is probably a testing failure. We know that in the course of covid-19, people who are going to have a mild course of the disease tends to resolve in 10 to 14 days. The moderate to a severe course of the disease is a four to six weeks recovery timeline. So around that 10-day mark, people start to feel like they are getting better. If they received a false negative, and then developed into a severe case, this is what would have led to hospitalization. The reinfection cases are likely a result of false negatives with testing. Thus far, the research shows that people cannot actually be reinfected with the virus, at least on the time scales that we have been dealing with. Sarah shared information from this reinfection study out of Bejing. There was another study on reinfection out of China that Sarah shared on, which you can find here. Right now the data points to once you've had it and gone through the other side, you should be good.  We don't know if you will be good for the rest of your life, or a few years, but definitely for the next little while.   Face Masks Do non-medical grade face masks really make a difference? (1:08:49) The answer is yes. Face masks reduce our aerosol exposure by a combination of the filtering action of the fabric and the seal between the mask and the face. In order to have an effective homemade mask, you want both a material that will do a good job of filtration and you want it to fit around your face well. You still want to social distance and be very careful about what you are touching.  Still, work to not touch your face while you are out of the house until you have had the opportunity to thoroughly wash your hands.  Also, when you take the face mask off, you want to think of it as if it is contaminated.  You want to take it off carefully and put it directly into the washing machine, and then wash your hands again. Think of the mask as a contaminated surface.  There was a study done on homemade masks made of different fabrics and how effective they are based on the various design factors.  This is not an N95 mask that is going to protect you against everything.  It is still really important for two reasons.  One, if you have it and don't know, it is going to contain a large amount of the virus in which you are shedding. This will reduce your risk of infecting others around you. Second, this is going to help you if you are exposed to an infectious person. The virus exposure, how much you are exposed to when you are infected, is a major contributor to the severity of the illness.  One of the challenges that healthcare workers face is that they are being exposed to so many different particles when they do get exposed, due to their proximity with so many different covid-19 patients.  This is why we need the appropriate levels of PPE for our healthcare workers, and we need them to be able to change them between patients.    Closing Thoughts If you are exposed to the virus when you are out of the house, but you are wearing an air mask that reduces your risk by 75% you just decreased your inoculation dose by 75%. Statistically, this will increase the liklihood of a more mild course of the disease. Stacy learned so much in this episode and thanked listeners for asking these questions, and Sarah for taking the time to research and answer these questions.  If you have enjoyed the show be sure to share it with people in your life who you think would also enjoy the show.  And leave a review and rating on whatever platform you enjoy listening in.  Stacy and Sarah thank you so much for following along on the Whole View.  It is taking Stacy and Sarah a little bit of time to get use to this change. We have received so much great feedback on this change, and Stacy feels like we are celebrating this milestone as a family.  Thank you for being a part of this community! We will be back again next week! (1:21:40)

On the tenth entry of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger chats with Dr. José I. Rodríguez, a professor at California State University, Long Beach, about how he got involved in academia and what about it appealed to him, and he graciously shares the biggest surprise he had arriving into the industry. José also names several programs that are available for persons of color to help them feel supported and connected within the higher education space. Connect with José on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram, and check out his website by clicking here.Learn more about the programs José mentioned, BUILD, the Mellon Mays Undergraduate Fellowship, and RISE.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTAmy: Hello, Dr. J. How are you?José: Good, how are you doing?Amy: Doing great. How's the weather in California today?José: Well, today the weather is good. It seems we have weather. [laughs]Amy: Oh. That's unusual for you guys. [laughs]José: Right, right. It is highly unusual, but we're happy. We need the weather.Amy: So I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit--so you work in the education industry. You're a professor at Long Beach State. And I was wondering if you could tell me, how did you get into academia, or higher education, and what about it appealed to you? Did you always want to do this or did you kind of happen into it?José: Right, thank you. That is a great question. I got into it because I--you know, the pretty typical story that you have going to college, you know, your family tells you that that's the thing to do, and--at least in my family--you have to either be a doctor, a lawyer, or some other profession of that ilk, and I thought, "Well, I don't want to be a lawyer. I don't want to be a doctor. I'm gonna be an engineer." I started out as an engineering major, and I just got tired of doing math if I can be perfectly frank. By the time I finished a third semester of calculus I was done. [laughs] Amy: Fair enough.José: Yeah, exactly. You know how that goes. So I took this GE class in communication, and we sat around, and we were studying small group communication, and we would get together in groups and we would discuss topics and we would share ideas and we would have conversations in a college classroom--which I thought was revolutionary, because up until that point I really didn't have experience with communication in the classroom, and I just fell in love with it. I thought, "Wow, this is really cool. I think that this might be my thing," and the next semester I switched my major to communications studies. I started working with one of my favorite professors, who became a mentor, and one thing just led to another. So it wasn't like I had this grand vision of, "Gosh, yes, I've wanted to be a professor since I was 4 years old." That wasn't me. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. It was quite confusing. And I just stumbled onto what I do. I developed a nice relationship with some colleagues at the university. I got into a good master's program, and then just created a trajectory, really through networking, which I know is dear to your heart, and that networking panned out in some really interesting ways. So it was a lot of networking and things that I really didn't plan a priori but just seemed to work out in the process of doing and connecting with people, and I really loved it, and I still love it, and I think the idea of just connecting with people, connecting with people through conversations, connecting with people through teaching, through doing workshops, retreats, things of that sort, I find that very rewarding, very much, you know, aligned with the things that I value, and I find working with people to be, you know, useful. You see the results of it right away if you impact somebody's life. If somebody is moved by something that you say, you see those results very quickly just by looking into people's eyes. Somebody's getting an idea or somebody's asking a question or somebody's emailing you and saying, "Oh, my gosh, that was great. That was fantastic," and I think I really enjoy that almost-instant feedback in interactions through teaching, through doing workshops and things of that sort.Amy: That's fantastic. So what I heard in that was that you grew up with a value around education--and a lot like I was, right? I went into my college programs not knowing, like, what does that mean, what am I gonna be when I grow up, and sort of through the role of a mentor and sort of happenstance you were able to channel this value of education into something that's giving forward to new students and is true to your values and maybe not so much math. [laughs]José: [laughs] It's true to my values, that's for sure. Yeah, giving forward, you know, connecting with people, making a point or having a conversation with somebody that wasn't there before, right? So you enter into conversation or you enter into dialogue with someone, and in moments that come seemingly from nowhere you develop a line of thought or a line of argument or a conversation that is really meaningful, enriched, and it almost seems like magic is happening, that you're co-creating or co-inventing with someone, and that's really kind of fun and engaging and becoming more and more rare as we lead mediated lives, and I find that really rewarding. Amy: Yeah, I want to come back to that idea of mediated lives in just a moment, but can you tell me first - what's been the biggest surprise to you? So you moved down this path of becoming a professor, and then you got there. So what surprised you now that you're on the other side of that particular journey? What didn't you expect--good or bad--about your industry?José: Yeah, the thing that surprised me the most was the variety of activities that one needs to perform as a college faculty member. so I got into it because I like to teach and I like the interaction with students, I like being in the classroom, I like getting into discussions, I like lecturing, I like having that experience where you share a concept or an idea and it makes sense to somebody. They get it. Their eyes light up, and all of a sudden they are impacted in some positive ways. I really like that, and I thought that that was the majority of the show, but no, that's not the majority. In fact, that's just one third. There's this whole thing about publishing and being on committees and having service obligations, and I found that to be surprising and extremely time-consuming. And not that it's bad. It's just typically not my thing. I think in most areas of academia people have their strengths or their weaknesses or their preferences, and my preference is on the teaching side of things. Service and academic publishing are great and I've done some of that, but that isn't really where my passion lies. So that was a bit surprising at the beginning and at times a bit daunting, just because it's time-consuming. It's a lot of work, especially in publishing and getting your work out there and the process of revision and working with reviewers. All of that can be very time-consuming, and so that's a challenge, yeah.Amy: So I remember being in college, and I can tell you that my favorite professors were the ones that were there because they enjoyed teaching, not the ones that were there because they enjoyed the publishing aspect. They were usually not the best ones in class. I usually learned a little less from them because they tended not to care as much about making connections so much as, you know, they were worried about the publications and that sort of thing. So on behalf of your students I want to thank you for sticking with it and being there for them. I think that's so important.José: Thank you. I hear that. I hear that from students every once in a while, at times. You know, some faculty are very blessed. They won, like, a genetic and I guess personality lottery, right? They're very good at teaching, they're really good at publishing, and they're very good at doing the whole service thing, but I think most people have a strength in a particular area and everything else is okay but isn't as, I guess, you know, dominant in their professional life. So yeah, I think your point is well-taken, and at times it's a struggle for faculty who really are into the whole publishing game to teach as effectively as possible. And don't get me wrong, that's not everyone. I think the vast majority of faculty do a great job, and sometimes people who are very well-published are actually very good teachers because they're kind of on the cutting edge of their field and they are really excited about it and they bring that excitement to the classroom, and that's fantastic. But in my experience, that's fairly rare.Amy: Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody's not in academia now, if that's something they aspire to, maybe they're an undergrad or even a grad student at this point and they're thinking, you know, "Maybe this is for me." Where would they go to learn more?José: One of the places to learn more is through a mentor or a colleague or somebody who's already quote-unquote arrived. If you find a professor, a colleague, who is really a mentor, that's really the best way to find out if the career is for you. Usually when you go to grad school, especially if you're getting a Ph.D, you're gonna have a committee of people that are working with you as you finish your dissertation, and you usually have a faculty mentor or a faculty advisor, and that person typically is the type of person that guides you, that, you know, writes your letters of recommendation, that has you on their research team, and that is the primary way that you get socialized into the process of becoming a professor. Another thing that people tend to do is go to conferences and, you know, networking events where once, twice or three times a year there are national conferences, local conferences, international conferences, where graduate students go and meet people across the nation and really create a growing body of colleagues across the globe or across the United States and find opportunities to work. In fact, most people I believe, still today, get hired that way. You hire people that you know or you hire people that have worked with people that you know. In my experience, that probably happens 60 to 70% of the time. And again, just like in almost any other industry I would assume, networking becomes very critical. It becomes a part of your professional practice, and it's a great way to find out if the profession is right for you.Amy: So you said something interesting, and I know that--I'm betting that you knew I would pick up on this. You said that people typically hire people that they know and networking is important, and since the audience, for at least part of this interview--to use Living Corporate's terminology--black and brown professionals who maybe feel like they're outside of the in group and in academia, right? If we hire who we know, that tends to self-perpetuate the demographics of a department or of a school or of a profession, and so what resources are available to young people of color or to professionals of color in your area that help them maybe navigate those waters in a way that someone like me wouldn't have to do? What advice can you give them to kind of overcome that feeling of otherness?José: The feeling is a challenge, no doubt. No doubt. What's really exciting is that there's more and more programs for persons of colors and individuals from historically marginalized groups, programs like BUILD and the Mellon Mays Research Fellowship. There's another one called RISE, and we have those types of programs on campus--and they're national, they're all over the country, and essentially those are programs designed to help students from minority groups form a relationship with a faculty mentor in a larger community that is designed to help them navigate the murky waters of their professional development. They would start their undergraduate program with BUILD or with Mellon Mays or with the RISE program, let's say, perhaps when they're, like, a sophomore in college, and they would be assigned to a faculty mentor, to a research team. They would participate in conferences and get mentoring advice, and they would get help putting together a statement of purpose, a resume, a [?], and have publications with faculty members or, let's say, conference papers on their own as a part of a research team. All of those things are not only very possible, but I see them happening on campus every day. It's part of--what I do is I train faculty mentors on how to create conversations that are empathic and nurturing and holistic so that people know the kind of language that might be best, the kinds of things to say, how things might be interpreted, and we try to create scenarios where we're asked to engage in everyday conversations in a way that is much more inclusive and less divisive. So that's my best answer. Find one of these programs on your campus and join. Put in your application and take it from there. That's one of the best ways to do it.Amy: Yeah, that's fantastic. Thank you. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know, and if the target demographic for these organizations, if the target age or, you know, the target year is sophomore year, that's very early for a lot of students even where they want to head or, you know, what they might want to do. I know I was, like, mid-senior year and then all of a sudden panicked because what I thought was gonna do wasn't gonna happen, right? So I think it's great that if we can engage students earlier in these kinds of programs so that they can explore what out there, and specifically what's out there for them in terms of help so that they can overcome some of the affinity bias or some of the self-perpetuaing selection processes that maybe existing faculty have, so thank you for that.José: Oh, you're welcome. That's an excellent question.Amy: So what other recommendations do you have for students, and particularly students of color, who want to explore careers in academia? Are there books? Are there articles? Are there websites? Are there other resources around that they should take a look at?José: Well, there are plenty of resources, and again I would just go back to the resources that are available in some of these programs. Obviously all of these programs, BUILD, the Mellon Mays Fellowship, the RISE program and many others that I don't have off the top of my head, are available obviously online. So if you Google the Mellon Mays Fellowship, if you Google BUILD, you will see a major website or local website for your university or for locations across the country and then be able to, you know, gather the information that you need, not only on the website but find out what campus near you, maybe even your own campus, has that program. I know that the BUILD community goes out to junior colleges and does some pretty heavy recruiting to let students know that these resources are available. So BUILD in particular, I'm familiar with them because I've worked with them for the past couple of years, and I know that a huge part of their initiative is recruiting. So not just waiting for students to come to them, but really allowing students to know that the resources are available by going out into the community.Amy: Excellent, thank you. So you had said before that you have kind of this passion for creating connectedness and that you discovered this passion when you took a general ed class in communications, and so can you tell me more about where that passion comes from or what do you think was awakened in you in that moment?José: Yeah. One of the things that was awakened is just the power of solidarity, the power of coming together through dialogue to find what we have in common as opposed to what we have in difference, and that whole idea, you know, it's kind of a nice idea and it sounds like a really nice phrase, but to have that as an experience is life-changing, where you go "Gosh, here I come into a conversation where I thought there was all these differences or I'm not getting along with people or I'm different or there's something wrong with me," and then I go into a room and I have a conversation with a variety of strangers, and all of a sudden there's this feeling of connectedness, there's this feeling that I belong, there's this feeling that I can contribute, there's this feeling of, you know, kinship, right? Father Greg Boyle, who's out here in California, he runs the #1 gang rehabilitation center in the United States--Amy: Homeboy Enterprises.José: Yeah, there you go. Amy: He is a national treasure. He is a hero.José: He is amazing, yes. Father Boyle. He has this great line where he says, you know, "Imagine the circle of kinship where no one is outside that circle," right? And I love that metaphor, the circle of kinship, and I believe that we do that through many means, but primarily through conversation, through discussion, through the process of sharing messages with each other. I see him do this. You know, he has his daily message of the day and he, you know, films himself having a little talk, and, you know, this impacts people not only in his community but all over the country, and he goes and gives talks, and I can see that a part of their process is really this constant conversation of bringing people in, of making them a part of the community, of using a language, a discourse of unity, of connectedness, of how we come together really as an extended family and then bring people into that family, help them feel included so that we can heal what has been broken through this new experience of solidarity, right? And the power to do that through messages, through language, through metaphor, is I think just such a gift, such a beautiful experience to have with people, and I've discovered that that was, like, a rare thing, you know, that I saw in college back at the time. I'd go, "Wow, to be able to study this process of creating messages and using words to bring people together," the power of story for example, telling compelling stories that people can relate to about our challenges and where we came from and how we are similar through the narratives that we construct about our life history, our different positionality, the different intersections of race, class, nationality, sexual orientation that then help us be relatable, human, understandable, vulnerable, right? Those things I think get navigated primarily through the exchange of messages, through the exchange of linguistic, you know, discoursive thought, and those kinds of things I find just very rewarding.Amy: That's fantastic. So for those who don't know, Homeboy Enterprises is--it's a lot of things, but primarily what they do is they take former gang members and teach them job skills, marketable job skills, and then they create businesses, right, with the people in their program. So they might create a whole t-shirt company that's comprised--the employees of which are maybe even rival gang members all working together in sort of this rehabilitative space to overcome the past and to contribute to the economy and to really heal through work and through shared goals.José: Exactly, exactly. I think they have, you know, four or five businesses. They have a cafe. They have a bakery and quite a wide variety of businesses, and about a year ago one of the organizations on campus, the [?] Center for Ethical Leadership, gave Father Boyle an award, and he came--he was invited to come and, you know, accept the award. Unfortunately he was under the weather at the time and I didn't have a chance to meet him at that time, but one of the Homeboys came instead, and Miguel, who was in charge of marketing, just delivered this speech that was stunning. There wasn't a dry eye in the room. It was just powerful, yeah. So very moving work.Amy: That's amazing, and all of that through storytelling and connectedness.José: Exactly, and it was all really through the power of language. A guy up on a stage with a microphone telling his story.Amy: That's beautiful. So in the time that we have left, I would like your perspective on code switching and on cultural dexterity. So you and I had a brief conversation about this before we started recording, and I just want to know, what do those terms mean to you? I know that you use the term code switching to talk about when you're flexing between English language communication and Spanish language communication, but what does that mean to you? What's the feeling behind that term?José: So code switching for me is, you know, experientally that capacity to go from speaking English to speaking Spanish, or then from speaking Spanish to speaking English, and being able to go back and forth from those linguistic traditions, and that's how I tend to use the term code switching, in a very basic, organic, lay type of meaning, right? So nothing too intellectual or crazy cerebral, very simple, and I mentioned that to you in our conversation because I did that in the TED talk. One of the things I wanted to do in preparing for that was to be able to code switch from English to Spanish and Spanish to English, one because I thought that would be really fun, two I hadn't really seen it done before--I'm sure somebody has, but it doesn't happen very often--and also to be able to express through the power of spoken word that capacity to navigate two languages and, by doing that, create a sense of community, reach somebody through an online medium or through the internet or through whatever that message gets sent that says, "Gosh, here's somebody speaking my language," or "Here's somebody code switching," or "Here's somebody kind of going back and forth," and having a moment of identification, and I think through those moments of identification we start to experience solidarity, a sense of unity, a sense that we're not alone, that there's other people out there in the community that are like us, that are human and are willing to put themselves out there and put out a message that can be unifying, can be compassionate, can be empathic and can be, you know, the beginnings of a healing moment, not only for us as individuals but for communities at large. So for me that's my best answer with code switching. I want to just switch to the other topic that you were asking about, which is cultural dexterity, and cultural dexterity comes from a body of academic work looking at cross-cultural or inter-cultural communication, advancing the idea that we need to adapt or to adjust as we shift from one cultural orientation to another, and being able to do that is to have cultural dexterity, to be able to navigate not just my culture of origin or my tradition but to be able to seamlessly adapt to different discourse communities, right, without, you know, excessive effort or, you know, stumbling around, and that capacity I think is a skill that, you know, we really need, not only in our world but in our country, to be able to communicate with people that I perceive are different from me. I think we all need to have that as a skill set, because that is a primary human experience. Difference is a primary human experience. Whenever we meet the other, we are in the experience of difference. And how do we bridge that difference? How do I navigate that conversation with someone that is different from me? For some people that's very easy, for others it's very hard, and cultural dexterity is a concept that tries to get at the ways that we do that. And, you know, as you might imagine, one of the simplest ways to do that is, again, navigating conversations in such a way that we find what we have in common as opposed to what we have in difference. And we do this very organically all the time. When we meet somebody for the first time we say, "Hey, how are you doing? What's your name? Where are you from? What do you do? What do you like? Where'd you go to school?" And we ask all these questions to try to gather enough information to find something that we have in common that we can then zero in on to develop a dialogue back and forth around an issue that we have in common. So if I speak with you and I know that you're interested in networking and diversity, well, then I'm also interested in that, and I go, "Gosh, that's a topic of conversation that we can bridge whatever divisions we might have or whatever difference we might have, because diversity and networking are such a thing that we have in common that the other stuff just is not all that important or is kind of trivial or isn't really central to this passion that we bring to diversity and networking and things of that ilk," and I think that cultural dexterity is an area of study, again, that tries to teach those skills strategically.Amy: Excellent. So I want to commend you on your bilingual TED talk, and the reason I say that is because I think that there's--I think in the current political climate with some of the news stories that I've seen about people who have been harassed or assaulted for speaking languages other than English in public spaces, to me, for you to speak Spanish from a stage is an act of profound resistance against a culture that seeks to punish difference, and I can only imagine what that meant to someone in the audience who, you know, is a first-generation immigrant or, you know, for whom Spanish is their primary language at home, but they have to navigate a world that is in many ways alien to them because, you know, the culture seeks to strip them of language. You know, one of the tools of colonialism has been to strip people of their language and to strip people of their culture by forbidding language, and so I commend you for that. I think that's such a profound act of resistance and a profound act of courage and solidarity to do that so publicly and with so much empathy for your audience.José: Thank you. No, I appreciate that. I have got to tell you, that was difficult to do, yes, yes. It is a challenge because, you know, for all the reasons that you're articulating and more. We live in a climate where it's extremely weird to get up on stage and then not only do that but realizing that you're being videotaped and that is going to be launched at some point all over the internet and people are gonna be able to see that, you know, forever, right? So there's this strange feeling of vulnerability that I never really experienced before because, you know, I'm not someone that does TED talks every day. That was my first one. But there was this whole sense of feeling very vulnerable, very open, very, you know, out there, right? Just without a safety net, right? Especially on the day of rehearsal where you see that there's all these lights on you, right? There's just you, the stage, and these massive lights where you can't see the audience because the lighting is so powerful. You know, in order to capture you brilliantly in all the color and the dynamics of, you know, the technical aspects of the filming, there needs to be just massive amounts of lighting, and at first it was just a shock to the system, you know? Rehearsals for me did not go too well. I was very frustrated because I was distracted. I felt very vulnerable. I felt very agitated, because it wasn't something that I had rehearsed before. And then I knew what I was gonna do. I knew what I was gonna get up there and say. And after saying it though, it felt really good, you know? It felt very rewarding. It felt very evocative. It felt transformative. It felt very emotional. There was a couple of times during the performance where I choked up, because I didn't want to go up there and just be safe. I didn't want to go up there and just be very logical. I didn't want to go up there and just say, "Well, you know, I'm gonna talk about my research and these three areas," and be very linear and Aristotelian and academic because I felt that if I did that I would put on a very easy shield and not really be of service, and I just felt called to just, you know, let it ride, and I was happy that I took that risk for sure, so I really appreciate the affirmation.Amy: Absolutely, and as I listen to you I think about--it was almost a coming out, a public coming out, right, where I've seen and I've experienced, you know, being in front of a room and coming out, and it is, it's terrifying. There's nowhere to hide. You know, physically you're probably safe, but tricking your brain into believing that when you're out there on your own, separated from a crowd, right, the spotlight is literally on you and there's absolutely nowhere to hide once those words escape. It can be incredibly freeing, but it can be terrifying as well, and so--you know, and again, given kind of where we are politically and culturally right now, I just think that was incredibly brave and, you know, probably very affirming to the people that were there listening to you.José: Thank you. That tension between terrified and then having an experience of freedom, right, that is the tension that, no question about it, you feel very liberated, but at the same time a feeling of terror, a feeling of excitement, and talk about intersectionality. Intersectionality as an inner experience of multiple intersections of oppressive, liberating energies in the simultaneity of an insane moment, right? Because, you know, how many people have the blessing or the opportunity to get up on a stage and have all the lights on you and deliver a message? It's such a blessing, such a gift, and I wanted to honor that moment, you know? TED has a great line or a great mission to deliver, you know, a message worth spreading, right? That idea, that brand, a message worth spreading, an idea worth spreading, and every time I prepared I wanted to make sure that I was saying something that was worthy of that mission, that was worthy of that statement, that was worthy of that ideal, and in doing that, right, in attempting my best to stay true to those ideals, it was terrifying, it was difficult, it was liberating, and all of that happening simultaneously, like, you feel like your heart's in one place and your mind's in another and your body's going in a different direction and you forget, and then you bring it back and then you don't know how you're gonna be and you can't predict the future, but you know it's gonna be great, but you're not sure, and it's these weird journeys of the heart and the mind and the soul, and you're hoping, "Gosh, once I go through this whole maddening process, I hope I arrive on the other side okay," right? But it's just really what we talk about in kind of classic stories about the leap of faith, right? Taking a leap of faith, taking the hero or the heroine's journey, finding a way to kind of navigate your journey one step a time by claiming your truth as best you can in the moment and allowing wherever you land to be okay.Amy: Love that, yes. And, you know, the leadership lesson in that, about authenticity and vulnerability, I think is not to be overlooked, because certainly as you're stripping away some of that facade and you're, you know, opening yourself up in that way, people are seeing you as a leader in a way that maybe they hadn't before, and they're identifying with you and your story, and they become personally invested then in your success, and I think that that's--I think that's the real gift of leadership in an authentic and vulnerable way is that other people become invested in your success because they sense that you're equally invested in theirs.José: Right, I totally agree. There's this interesting dialectic, right, there's this interesting reciprocal relationship where I think through vulnerability we make connections with the other because we come to understand, at a very evocative, embodied level, our essential humanity. So I'm a human being just like you're a human being, and we're having a moment of solidarity where you might be admiring me, which is great, but I think the bigger gift is that you see yourself, you see the beauty of you in those moments, because in my, as I like to call it "stumbling successfully," I have said something or I have done something that allows you to see what is already beautiful inside you and helps you recognize it in a moment. And then you might project that onto me, which is fine, but hopefully what happens is that you feel empowered, you feel motivated, and then you feel that you want to pay that gift forward by allowing someone in your life to know that they're not alone, that they have value, that they are here with you for a reason, and in dialogue you get to discover what that reason is.Amy: That's beautiful. And if it's okay, we will end there. Thank you so much for this conversation, and thank you for extending your vulnerability to my audience. I appreciate it.José: It's been a pleasure connecting with you. Always, always wonderful to talk to you. Take care.Amy: Thank you.

Amy C. Waninger fills in for Zach to interview Dr. Robin DiAngelo, author of "White Fragility," about just that. She helpfully unpacks the concept of whiteness and what it means in the context of American society, defines the term white solidarity and discusses its impact on black and brown people at work, and talks about what it looks like for white people to take responsibility for being less fragile. She also touches on the topic of diversity of thought and explains why she believes that it is the way that homogeneous groups protect their hold on institutional power.Connect with Robin on social media! She's on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.Find out more about Robin's book "White Fragility" on Amazon.Check out her website.Read her piece, "Nothing to Add: A Challenge to White Silence in Racial Discussions," by clicking here.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, really good news. First of all--the first thing. The first thing, right, 'cause I have two things. The first thing is my wife and I have welcomed our first child into the world. Her name is Emory, and she is great. In fact, her full name is Emory Jean Nunn. Beautiful. Gorgeous. I don't post pictures of my kids on social media, so if you don't really know me like that, if we're not really close, you're not going to get a picture from me. But that's okay, 'cause you don't have to see her. You know? It's okay. It's kind of like--who doesn't post pictures of their kids? Oh, no, Sia doesn't show her face. But, like, you know how Sia doesn't show her face? Like, that's how I'ma do my kids. Like, you know, you'll never see her face, but, like, she'll be covered up with, like, a lamp or something like that. But anyway, really excited about the fact that I'm a father. Really thankful for my wife. I was in the delivery room when she had her daughter, when she had our daughter, and man, just the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. Shout-out to you, Candis. You're beautiful. Really thankful and appreciative to you for making me a girl dad, and yeah, that's the first thing. Like, that's the headline, okay? And then the second thing, far distant but still pretty cool news, we were able to get a very special guest today, and her name is Robin DiAngelo, Dr. Robin DiAngelo, and, you know, it was interesting because I was supposed to be the person who was to interview Dr. DiAngelo, but the date that we had to interview directly interfered with me welcoming my daughter into the world. So I was still in the hospital during my interview date. So I was able to prep Amy C. Waninger, wonderful consultant, subject matter expert, executive coach and member of Living Corporate and founder of her own company Lead at Any Level. She actually facilitated this conversation in my stead, and I just think that's really cool for a couple different reasons. One, Living Corporate has now gotten to the size and scope that we're able to attract a Dr. DiAngelo, but also our team is so capable that, you know, someone can check in the game and I can check out without there being a huge issue, and so shout-out to you, Amy. Thank you so much for facilitating this conversation. I know you all are gonna love this conversation, so make sure you check it out, and I'll catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Robin, welcome to the show. How are you?Robin: Well, I'm overall well in a very uncertain and frightening time.Amy: So let's get right into it, Robin. So before we talk about white fragility, can we unpack the concept of whiteness? Which is something we don't talk about a lot, and what that means in the context of American society?Robin: Yeah. So let's hold that note that you just made, that we don't talk about it a lot, because it's a key way that it stays intact and protected. So I'm gonna use Ruth Frankenberg. She's a sociologist, and she makes three points about whiteness, three dimensions. So it's a location of structural advantage, a position if you will within society, within institutions. It's a standpoint from which white people look out at ourselves, at others, and at society, and it's a set of cultural practices that are not named or acknowledged, right? And so to say that it's a standpoint is to say that it's a significant aspect of white identity, to see one's self as an individual outside or innocent of race, right? Just human. For most white people it's the last thing. [laughs] We'd have to be prompted to include being white in a list of, you know, "What you need to know about me," right? Characteristics of myself, things that have shaped my life. We're rarely going to name race as one of those things and yet, you know, before I took my first breath, the fact that my mother and I are white was shaping the trajectory of my life, and certainly the outcome of my very birth, right? So all of these things come together to create what you think of as whiteness, kind of the water that we interact within.Amy: I like that you called out "it's unnamed cultural norms," and I know in your book, and we'll talk about this in a minute, but naming those cultural norms, it violates the norms.Robin: It's this odd kind of tension if you will, right, that in talking about whiteness, of course, we're centering whiteness, right? We're kind of, you know, as always, positioning white people in the middle of the conversation, but in a very curious way whiteness stays centered by not being named, by not being acknowledged, and so to disrupt it you have to expose it. You have to make it visible. We can see this with patriarchy, right? The kind of unmarked, unnamed norm is "male" and then everything else is named as a specific position so that maleness is just human, and then femaleness is a variation and a deficient one of that, and the same of race. White is human, and everything else is a particular kind, and to be honest, a less than version of that human, and so by never naming that center from which we're proceeding you protect it.Amy: Absolutely. And I want to be sure and call this out right now, because when Zach asked me to stand in for him, you know, he knew that this interview was happening around the time of the birth of his daughter, and he called me and asked me if I would step in and sub for him, and I laughed and I said, "Really, Zach? You want a white woman--the only white woman on your team--to interview a white woman on a podcast for black and brown people?" You know? And I said "Are you sure that's what you want to do?" And he said, "Lean into that, go with it, and don't be afraid to call it out," and so I want to make sure that the audience knows that I know that I'm white, Robin and I both know that.Robin: Oh, I'm acutely aware.Amy: And yet we are recording this, you know, with the intent of sharing this conversation with a predominantly black and brown audience, and so I want to really, like, unpack this and do this justice, because I think we have such a unique opportunity here. You've used several times, in your book and in your talks, the term "white solidarity." Can you explain to us what that term means?Robin: Yeah. Maybe a couple of remarks about what you had just acknowledged, right? First of all, I actually think people of color know what it means to be white, know about dynamics such as white fragility to a degree that I never will, because they've been navigating it their entire lives. I think about it as it comes from me, not at me, right? And as an insider to whiteness, you and I do have something to offer, right, that people of color can't know or understand, and one piece of what we can offer is just to freaking admit to this, right? I mean, that in and of itself, you know, helps with the gaslighting, right? But I also want to be clear that--and I'm pretty sure this speaks for you too--we were not raised to see ourselves as white. Right now us acknowledging that, it's taken, you know, 20 years of my life's work to come to understand that I am white and that it shapes everything that I do. So it's not something that we are set up to understand at all, which of course is part of how it stays protected. And then to not name this, right? Audre Lorde has a beautiful quote about the master's tools. "How do you dismantle the master's house when you only have the master's tools?" So as you and I are two white people having this conversation, of course we're reinforcing whiteness, right? But for me to not use this position, this platform, this voice, this automatic granting of credibility and benefit of the doubt, to not use that to interrupt whiteness is to really be white. [laughs] And I'd like to be a little less white. And I always want to be really clear. What I mean when I say a little less white, I am not gonna tell you or tell white people that the answer to racism is to claim our ethnic roots, right? I'm not gonna say, "Let's all go and be Italian-American and Irish-American." No, for me to be a little less white means to be--to put it bluntly--a little less racially oppressive, a little less racially ignorant and yet arrogant in my ignorance, right? A little less certain and complacent and apathetic and silent and a little more humble and curious and breaking with white solidarity. So that leads us to that question. I see white solidarity as the unspoken agreement amongst white people that we'll keep each other comfortable around our racism, that we will privilege one another's saving face over actually being in our integrity and interrupted racism. So you say something, I'm cringing, right? I'm like, "Ugh," but I don't want to embarrass you so I'm not gonna say anything, plus I'm so relieved that it wasn't me, right? "It was you, not me!" You know, there's that individual piece where I think "Hey, as long as I didn't say it I'm not complicit with it," but of course my silence is complicit with what you just said, right? Yeah, so it's that dynamic of protecting one another, protecting our positions within this system. No matter how we rationalize it, that is what we're doing through white solidarity. Kind of pulling ranks.Amy: Mm-hmm. And there are real consequences for breaking with white solidarity, just like there are real consequences for not being white, and so as white folks we can either choose to remain protected by standing in solidarity with people that we maybe disagree with or have made us uncomfortable or we can choose to shed that protection and shed some of that privilege, but then we're also opening ourselves up to the same kinds of in the moment--not universally, but in the moment the same types of social outcasting we might receive if we were in fact other.Robin: Yes. You know, let's be really clear. There are consequences to white people for breaking with white solidarity. I mean, the term race traitor has an origin, right? And so that's in large part why we often don't break with it, but I also want to distinguish the differences, right? We're in this moment, right? We're at the dinner table. Uncle Bob says that thing. Everybody's cringing. Nobody wants to ruin the dinner. And I often ask, "Jeez, why would interrupting racism ruin the dinner and not interrupting racism not ruin this dinner," right? And yet, you know, i t's gonna erupt in conflict and so we keep quiet. So, you know, there are consequences, such as being dismissed, being trivialized, "You ruined the dinner," but it doesn't rest on a history. It doesn't trigger a history of harm, right, that it does for people of color when they break that silence, right? So that's one piece, and another piece is I am probably not going to lose my job. I am probably not going to be criminalized. I am probably not going to be institutionalized. But those threats and those fears are out there kind of circulating around people of color when they challenge white people, right? This is very real. The consequences are real.Amy: Absolutely. So let's talk about how white solidarity shows up at work, and specifically what are the impacts to black and brown folks at work when white people are engaging in white solidarity?Robin: Well, one of the ways it shows up is privileging white people's feelings over racism, right? So all of this, you know, tiptoeing and tying people in knots to, you know, make sure that white people are comfortable in this conversation, and we have to create a safe space, and we can't go too fast, and, you know, "Let's not call it racial equity. Let's call it D&I and D&E and DEI and everything, you know, vague other than racial justice, right? Because we need to keep white people comfortable," right? Let's get everything on the table. Well, how does that function? By getting everything on the table you can't do justice to anything, and you certainly can't do justice to race, right? So those are some really common ways that institutions privilege and protect white people's delicate sensibilities over the very real pain that people of color in primarily-white organizations are experiencing daily.Amy: Absolutely, and I want to be very clear about this. So it seems like the higher up people are in the organizational food chain, if you will, the more fragile they are, and the more power they have the more fragile they are in terms of conversations about race, the more they cling to that power and weaponize it. Do you think that's a fair take?Robin: Yes. Certainly, I mean, you see white fragility across, you know, wherever you have white people, but the impact of it is greater the higher your status is, right? So my training is in sociology, and it's just been invaluable to me, right? And there's a question that's just never failed me in my efforts, right, to unpack, you know, how do we keep getting these outcomes despite all the things that white people are gonna claim? And that question is not is this true or is this false, is this right or is this wrong, but how does it function? Who does it serve? So how does it function and who does it serve when the people with the most institutional power are the most fragile? Well, they certainly have the most to lose in a way, right? They are protecting their positions and their status. They likely feel the most threatened by a question, and I'm gonna offer they likely feel the most entitled to what they have, and so they have no ability or stamina to withstand questioning what they have, right? I mean, you're up against now idealogies of meritocracy, that "I have what I have because I'm the cream of the crop, and cream rises, and I've worked hard, and, you know, I'm special, and I went to the finest schools." You're questioning all of that idealogy when you challenge those at the top. Maybe there's something more going on here than just the cream rising. And I just have to say I grew up in poverty, so I didn't go to college until I was in my 30s, and I really did think that the smartest kids went to college. And then I got to college and I was dumbfounded, quite frankly, and then I went on to teach college, and I can assure you that the cream does not rise, that the smartest kids don't go to college, and that Ivy League schools are not filled with the best and the brightest. It's about access and opportunity, but that's a hard thing to look at when all your life you've been told how special you are.Amy: Absolutely. Now, in your book you said--and I'm quoting from your book here--"It's white people's responsibility to be less fragile. People of color don't need to twist themselves into knots trying to navigate us as painlessly as possible," and this seems to fly in the face of a lot of, you know, diversity and inclusion work that's being done in corporations right now. You alluded to this earlier, right? We call it everything but anti-racism, we call it everything but racial equity, and, you know, there seems to be a lot of making people comfortable, you know, setting ground rules so no one gets upset when we have these conversations at work, and kind of the prevailing notion or the unwritten, unspoken rule is "Both sides need to put in a lot of emotional labor to make this change happen." So let me ask you - what does it look like for white people to take responsibility for being less fragile? How do we do that?Robin: Let's back up a little bit and talk about that dynamic, right, where everyone's equally responsible. That does not account for the difference in power, in structural and institutional power. So that's like saying, if we're looking--I draw from patriarchy and sexism a lot. I'm a cis woman. You know, she/her pronouns. I'm white. And it's just so clear when I think about it. Well, both men and women have equal responsibility to dismantle patriarchy. Well, we all play a role, but who controls the institutions, right? Who holds that power? And so the weight of that responsibility I believe is in the hands of those who have more institutional power. And people of color of course have a role to play, in the same way that women have a role to play in challenging sexism and patriarchy, but it's a very different role. In a lot of ways it's about developing critical consciousness. It's about surviving the dynamics, supporting each other, getting away--getting space away from white people. I mean, these are the kinds of things that people of color--that have been in my life--have shared that they need to have, right? This is how they can kind of survive this whiteness that they're embedded in all the time, is to surround themselves with people who understand their experiences and share their experiences, right? So what are some of the things that white people can do? We simply cannot get where we need to go from the current paradigm, which is--this is the average white person's definition of what it means to be racist, right? A racist is an individual who consciously does not like people based on race and is intentionally mean to them. Individual, conscious mal-intent across race. That's racism, or a racist, and I don't know that you could come up with a more effective way to protect systemic racism than that definition, because it absolves virtually all white people. Most of the racism--I would say actually all of the racism--I have perpetrated in my life has been unintentional and unaware. That does not mean that the impact of it hasn't been harmful and painful, right? So you pretty much guarantee defensiveness and denial when that is what you think it means to be racist. You know, the average white person--I mean, I've been asking this question for 20 years - "What does it mean to be white?" - and most white people can't answer that question, and that's not benign or innocent or neutral. You know, the collective inability of white people to answer that question creates a hostile environment, because if I can't tell you what it means to be white, I cannot hold what it means not to be white, right? I'm gonna have no critical thinking on that. I'm gonna have no skills to navigate the conversation, and I'm gonna have no emotional capacity to withstand the discomfort of that conversation, and what that means is that people of color in primarily white environments can't be their authentic selves. They can't talk to us about what they're experiencing because things tend to get worse for them, not better for them, when they challenge us, right? So we white people have to stop thinking about racism as just people walking around saying the N word, you know, and going to rallies in Charlottesville. That's real too. That's another conversation, but again, it's the more--I'm gonna put air quotes around it--"subtle," but it's that inability to understand our own racial perspective and positions that creates that climate for people of color working with us, right? And that leads to this idea that racism is their problem, right? I mean, I was raised to see race as what--oh, let's name somebody. Van Jones has race, right? I don't have race, right? I'm just regular, you know? In my day we said things like "I'm just white bread," "I'm just Heinz 57," right? They have race, and so they also have the problems associated with race, and so you get this idea that they'll have to work that out, but thank goodness I'm not a part of that. I'll never forget a student--I used to always start my classes with that question, you know, how has your race shaped your life? And a white student wrote, "Well, I was really lucky. I grew up in an all-white neighborhood, and so I've never learned anything about racism." Amy: They've learned everything.Robin: Just in that one sentence, I mean, we can unpack--I could teach a whole freaking seminar on that one sentence it's so loaded. We could do some beautiful discourse analysis, right? But this idea that we're innocent of race, that white space is unracialized space and that we've absorbed nothing in that space--Amy: And I think that we're not missing anything by being in that space, right? [?] anything that would benefit us by staying in those, you know, all-white neighborhoods that are privileged, you know? It's just such a sadness to me. It's such a sickness that we have, that we think that by excluding ourselves from the conversation we are in some way privileging ourselves, when I believe the exact opposite is true.Robin: Yeah. I actually think the deepest message of all, of white supremacy--and let me just pause for a minute, because that's a charged term for a lot of white people. Yes, it includes people wearing white hoods. You know, that's how I was raised to understand the term, but it's actually a highly descriptive sociological term for the society we live in, one in which elevates white people as the norm for humanity, a lot of what we've already been talking about, and I think one of the deepest messages of white supremacy is this idea that there's nothing of value lost in white segregation, and in fact, that segregation is what we use to define that space as good. The whiter it is, the more it will be perceived as "good," valuable, safe. The profundity of that message is so deep. I just wish white people would just sit with it for a minute. "Wow," right? To call white segregated space good, right? We just came out of February, which was Black History Month, where we talk about the tragedy of enforced segregation of blacks in the Jim Crow South, and every day we talk in celebratory terms about white segregation. Those are very deep messages that we have to look at. Again, it's not the N-word for somebody like me, but it's that. Amy: Right, it's the coded language of good schools, good neighborhoods, low crime, you know, nice areas of town, good parts of town, right?Robin: Mm-hmm. "Oh, I'm shocked that crime happened here." Well, where is it supposed to happen?Amy: Right, or we don't even define it as crime when white people do it. White collar crime is its own kind of crime because certainly people who are in white collar jobs who are white people are not engaged in normal crime, right? Normal crime is for other people. And yeah, the vernacular around this, we could go on forever, but I want to get to Zach's questions because he's my boss. Robin: Yeah. Well, I want to say something about the ground rules. You mentioned ground rules, right? 'Cause we're talking about corporate settings. So you have these seminars and workshops and, you know, these guidelines for having a conversation, but they always assume equal power relations, right? There's no one set of guidelines that will ensure a quote-unquote "safe space" for everybody. Usually what they are all about is niceness, and a culture of niceness is just kind of deadly in terms of racial justice because challenging racism, naming racism, will not be perceived as "nice," right? "You've hurt my feelings," you know? "How could you assume I would be racist?" And so as long as everybody has to be nice, we can have no conflict or no strong feelings and we can't express ourselves in any kind of strong way. And so usually those ground rules function to stifle authentic conversation, authentic expression of pain that people of color are often in in primarily white spaces, particularly primarily white-controlled spaces.Amy: Well, it becomes another form of gatekeeping that white people do on conversations that don't center them. And so we keep those conversations to a minimum, we make sure that we reframe it so that it's palatable for the people that pay our salaries and that sort of thing, and, you know, I think to me one of the things that we can do as white people is to put ourselves less often in gatekeeper roles where we are, you know, less responsible for things like merit decisions or, you know, pay decisions, promotion decisions, content or tone decisions, right? Where we're not policing those things, we are handing that off to someone who is, you know, superbly capable of doing it from a completely different perspective, and I think especially in those kinds of conversations where we're in racial equity conversations, I think it's incumbent upon white folks, just like when you're in a performance review and your boss gives you feedback you don't like, you don't argue with them and cry and throw things and, you know, tell them, you know, "I can't believe you thought I did a bad job on that report," right? We don't do that because it would be ridiculous to do that in any other professional context, but then somehow we put ourselves in the position of gatekeeping on those conversations again through the weaponizing of our emotions in those conversations.Robin: Yeah, it reminds me of--as a woman in a male-dominated environment, I am not going to cry. No way. I might go in the bathroom and cry, but I am not gonna cry in front of those men. And yet, white women, how free do we feel to cry in front of people of color when charged with racism, right? When held accountable for our behavior, which is very revealing about our understanding of where the power lies, right? What is the difference between my tears in each of those contexts, right? And so your question about, you know, "How do we get there?" And I was saying we can't get there from the current paradigm, right? We just have to start from the premise, white people have to start from the premise, that we have been thoroughly indoctrinated and socialized into white supremacy and into ways of seeing and being that uphold white supremacy, and once you start there it's actually incredibly liberating, right? It's just transformative. I can stop defending, denying, debating, you know, and start just getting to work trying to unpack, well, how is that indoctrination into white supremacy manifesting in my life, in my work? It's such a different question because it rests on a very different premise, right? And so when you talk about white people kind of turning over some of those decisions in the workplace, I want to put in a plug here for, you know, if you're gonna put people of color on committees and, you know, token representation, they need to be paid more for that work, right? They need to be compensated for the psychic, emotional and intellectual labor that they're doing and the expertise that they're bringing that the rest of us don't have, right? And tart acknowledging--Amy: And not just one person of color on that board. You need a critical mass of people who can, you know, almost be a block of voices, because one person cannot do that work alone. I mean, that's violent to put one person in that position.Robin: Yes, yes.Amy: So let me ask you this while we're on the subject of corporate America and the way that we talk about diversity concepts. You know, we hear a lot about--so there are a couple places I want to go with this. The first is "Well, what about diversity of thought?" And I have so many things I'd love to save about that, but the other is, you know, this focus on gender as if gender equity is one thing. And so I want to leave that there and kind of get your response to those two terms. Robin: So we might as well just go for it. Diversity of thought is ridiculous - ridiculous. That is the way that homogeneous groups protect their hold on institutional power, right? "Yeah," you know, "There's all kinds of things," you know? "Somebody likes soccer and somebody likes volleyball." There are many forms of difference between us, but those seem, like, personality kinds of things, right? Race is very, very real. Racism is very, very real. That lack of representation is very real. We have to get real about it, right? Hold on, though. The other piece you asked--Amy: The gender equity piece.Robin: Yeah, I have to be careful here. So I think there's--Amy: Stop there for a second. I want to know, why do you feel you have to be careful there?Robin: Because there's a lot of social power behind the push for acknowledging gender binaries and gender diversity as you call it, and I do believe that there's a reason that that has spread. Look, I do not want to downplay patriarchy and sexism and heterosexism and transphobia. I don't want to downplay those things, and I think there's a reason that that has flourished in a way that you're gonna see on people's signatures their gender pronouns, but you are not going to see their race, and I'd like to see their race on there too. I'd like if, before we start a meeting, we go around the room, we say our gender pronouns, sure, but we also say our race, so we start noticing who's at this table and who's not at this table, you know? What decisions are being made at this table and who are they going to impact in what ways, and how do we know, and who's missing? So I think, again, I want to acknowledge that all of those variations of that oppression are real, but there's still a reason that that has become more widespread and acceptable, and I think it's because everyone pretty much knows somebody who is queer or non-binary. They're your brothers, your sisters, your family members, your cousins. So there's a human face to that, but most white people live profoundly racially segregated lives, and so we don't see that humanity in the same way.Amy: I think that's fair, and I think, you know, a lot of the gender equity focus, like, when a lot of companies do diveristy initiatives in their companies or inclusion initiatives, they start with gender because gender seems the most safe thing or the most relatable thing, and typically the beneficiaries of those initiatives are white women only, because what works for white women in corporate settings doesn't work for black women, Indian women, you know, Chinese-American women, indigenous women, Latinx women, right? And it's another way, I believe, of reinforcing the primacy of whiteness in the space as opposed to really making gains broadly in diversity and inclusion. Would you agree with that?Robin: Well, I see a lot of white gay men in positions, you know, head of diversity and equity in organizations, and I also notice that many of them have no racial analysis. So again, you want to use your oppressed experience, right, your oppressed identities, as a way in, not as a way out, right? So how can you use that understanding to see, "All right, well, where am I complicit in somebody else's oppression?" And I move back to gender and patriarchy a lot because I've thought about it most of my life. I was in my 30s before I ever considered how I was complicit with somebody else's oppression. So great, a white, gay man who has a strong anti-racist analysis? That's fantastic, but without that you're just gonna reproduce the same kind of daily agony for the people of color in your organization.Amy: Right, absolutely. Absolutely. And I want to get into this just a little bit, Robin, because, you know, we do similar work in that we are trying to, you know, build a more equitable culture, build more inclusive cultures within organizations, within our communities, within our country. You know, there is this fine line that people like you and I walk in speaking truth to power and getting paid, and I'm curious, because I know that that's a struggle not just for us, right? And we are maybe a little--it's maybe a little easier for us to do that because of our whiteness, but folks who really want to speak truth to power but have value to offer an organization and, you know, expect to be paid for their work, how do you balance that? What advice do you have for folks who are out there every day kind of balancing on that razor's edge?Robin: Yeah. Well, the first thought is relating to--we were just talking about who tends to be in these positions, right, and I want to be really clear that I don't think it's automatically people of color should be leading all of the diversity efforts. I think that's also problematic, right? We put them in those positions. We'll cover everything else, and we'll give them race work, even as they're not going to be listened to and heard in the same way. So it's not a given, right? So again, a white person in that position with a very strong anti-racist analysis can be incredibly effective, in some ways more effective in certain areas. My ideal is interracial teams that you actually put the resources behind, an interracial team at the head of your diversity initiative, because each member of that team can bring something and challenge something differently than somebody else, right? So I used to be a co-director with a black woman of equity at an organization. You know, there were things that I could push that she couldn't, and there were things of course that she could bring that I couldn't, and so that's for me a much more ideal than any just one person, 'cause that's a setup, you know, regardless. How I have reconciled that dilemma, right, in various ways. So first of all, sometimes people say "You're being paid for racism," and I would basically say, "Well, I'm being paid for anti-racism." My work is anti-racism, and we could make a case that everybody--if you are not anti-racist, you are racist, right? So as Ibram Kendi beautifully says, "The opposite of racist isn't not racist. It's anti-racist." So in a society in which racism is the norm, not an aberration, all of us are contributing to that if we're not explicitly challenging it, right? So the one way that I think about what I do, when I come into an organization and I give a presentation on whiteness and white fragility, I'm tilling the soil, if you will, as an outsider, as somebody with a lot of credibility behind my name and as a white person, there's a way in which I can challenge white people that I couldn't if I was inside that organization and that people of color are not gonna be able to, so let me come in and do that really hard, say that really hard stuff and soften the soil in a way that then people can hear the people of color inside that organization, right? And the white people inside that white organization. That is one of the ways I think about what I do, but let me name some of the ways that I seek to be accountable. I donate a percentage of my income to racial justice organizations that are led by people of color. I channel work to people of color. I promote the work of people of color. I have a platform to do that. When I am presenting more than a few hours I co-present in an interracial team. I have white people in my life with a strong anti-racist analysis that I consult with and work through my feelings with. You know, I'm not saying I don't get called in and have feelings about it and need to work through those feelings, but I also have a circle of people of color coaches who have agreed to coach me, to be there for me if I need to work through something, and I pay them for their time. That is critical. It is not something that I turn to them and expect for them to give me. And this is another challenge in organizations, is that labor is just expected with no sense of compensation. So I pay them for that time. Now, occasionally the people of color in my life say, you know, "We're friends, I'm not taking your money," and I say, "Great. I'm donating for the hour you just spent with me to a racial justice organization." I also pay rent in Seattle to the Duwamish people, who are the original peoples. This is the ancestral territories of the Duwamish, and I pay rent to the Duwamish people because they have yet to be federally recognized in the Seattle area. So I could go on, but those are some of the ways I seek to be accountable.Amy: Thank you for that, and, you know, I think that as we look at, you know, it is so easy to not be held accountable, right, as white people in this work and in this society. So one of the things that I've noticed--and Zach and I were talking about this the other day--you know, if certain things that I wrote in my book or that you wrote in your book that you say to white people, you know, is really ground-breaking, right, in an all-white room. Like, people are like, "Oh, my God. That's so radical. I can't believe we're having this conversation," right? They've never heard it before, you know? They've gotten to their mid-fifties and they've never heard somebody say some of these things before, and this is dinner time conversation for black families, right? And so one of the things I've noticed is a lot of times white people can't hear it if a white person doesn't say it, but--and I'll say that out loud, I'll say that in a group of people, and, you know, I'll see women of color especially nodding their heads, but, you know, how much of this work do you feel you're creating something new versus--and I don't mean this as a criticism. I think about this a lot myself. How much of this is you're creating something new versus you're taking what's being said around dinner tables in black families every day and just saying it in a different space where no one's heard it before?Robin: Yeah. Well, so the first thing I think about is that there's simply no clean space. In other words, there's no place outside of this. This is always going to be a [both and?]. You know, as we seek to de-center whiteness, we're centering whiteness, right? Again, we're in it. We're inside this construct. So you do your best to be as accountable as you can, but I don't know that we can ever get it exactly right, right? And the way that I think about what I do, absolutely, years and years and years of mentorship from people of color, years and years of being in rooms and hearing and bearing witness to the testifying of people of color, you know? Years of studying the works of people of color and years of self-analysis, self-reflection, talking to other white people. I do have the ability to take fairly high-level academic concepts and make them very accessible, right? I did put language to something that pretty much everybody recognizes, right? I mean, even people who are fragile around whiteness kind of recognize once you give language to it, and a lot of people of color have said, "Thank you for that language. I absolutely see this. I've dealt with it. I didn't even know how to express it," right? So I have something to contribute, and yes, I stand on the shoulders of countless people of color, right? I can't live with not expressing this, right? I can't live with being silent because of those dilemmas. I try to be as much in my integrity as I can. I try to get it as right as I can as often as I can by as many as I can. [laughs] And I'll never get it right by everybody. It's way too loaded. It's way too charged. It's way too messy.Amy: Absolutely, and I think too in the work of anti-racism it's a moment by moment choice for so many of us, right? That we're either actively deconstructing racism in this moment or we are actively not, and it's something that, coming from a place of privilege, we can choose to do or not, right? We don't have to do that work. No one will think less of us if we don't except that we'll think less of ourselves for those of us who are committed to this kind of thing, but at the same time it is--there's a balance there, right, of taking up space when it's needed and taking up space that we should or should not, and I think there's a lot of calculus that we need to do there, and I see you doing a lot of that in your work. Robin: Yeah. You know, I have a piece called "Nothing to Add: The Role of White Silence in Cross-racial Discussions." You know, I think silence from a position of power is a power move, right? So that's not the alternative either, and one of the things that I'm arguing in that piece is that any way that I engage that is a default, right, like, "Okay, I'm not gonna say a word in this conversation," right? "I don't want to get it wrong. I don't want to make a mistake. I don't want to dominate." Whatever my rationale is, "I'm just gonna listen." Or the other end, right? "I'm gonna speak up whenever I feel moved to speak up." Those are defaults. Those are not "I'm paying attention in every moment, and in each moment I'm asking myself what's happening in the room right now? What are the dynamics at play? What is my position within those dynamics? And given that, what would be the most strategic, constructive, anti-racist move?" And sometimes it would be silence, and sometimes it would be speaking up, and I'm not going to get that call right by everybody in the room, but that's the call I need to be constantly making. Paying attention and, to the best of my ability, using my position in strategic, anti-racist ways, right? Any default is problematic, I believe. Any kind of just--Amy: I agree, yeah. Because once you stop making conscious decisions, you're making decisions without realizing it, and making decisions without realizing you're making them is always a problem.Robin: Well, they tend to function for your own comfort. The "I'm not gonna say a word in case I make a mistake," come on. You don't want to take any risks. You know, you're looking to save face. "I don't want to show myself," right? "Lest you think I'm racist," and I always like to laugh. "Look, I already think you're racist, all right? I start from that premise." Let me just go there - all white people are racist in the sense that all white people have been socialized into a racist world view because we were born into a racist culture in which it's embedded, and we're back to just start from that premise and then get to work trying to impact how you were socialized into it and how you might challenge it rather than this constant denial, you know? That just because you don't want to be means you aren't.Amy: Right, absolutely. So I want to go back to this notion about people of color twisting themselves into knots to avoid, you know, weaponized whiteness so to not be punished. So recognizing of course that we're both white women having this conversation, you know, what do you think is left for people of color to do?Robin: Honestly? Like, survive this, navigate this in as healthy a way as possible. You know, I always feel a little uncomfortable, a little sheepish around telling people of color what is there for them to do, but Glenn Singleton, he is a black man who founded Courageous Conversations, and I've done a couple presentations for him at his conferences, and he has, like, a principle that everybody has a role, and he pushes me to speak to that very question. So with Glenn, I'll imagine him standing beside me saying "Go for it, Robin." [laughs] I mean, my work is to challenge white people, right? But there are a couple of very sensitive questions I do offer people of color, and one is what does anti-blackness look like among your group? Because anti-blackness runs across the spectrum of race, and anti-blackness runs amongst people of color. It runs amongst black people. So what does it look like amongst your group, and who have you aligned with? In particular for Asian heritage people who are often more likely to be comfortable for white people. This does not mean they don't experience racism, but the reality is that white people are more comfortable, in some ways because of our particular racism, because of the invisibility, some of the stereotypes we project onto Asian heritage people, but nonetheless, we are more comfortable overall, right? So I would offer that question to Asian heritage people in the workplace. Who have you aligned with? Have you taken up with the struggles of African-Americans in this country or have you aligned with whiteness, and what have been the rewards, and what has been the price that you paid for that alignment? So there's that work. There's the work of challenging the messages, you know? For white people, we need to challenge the messages of internalized superiority, and there's an opposite message for people of color to look at, and also just, like I said earlier, to get away from white people and build community in people of color spaces, you know? I'm a big believer in affinity work in the workplace, right?Amy: Mm-hmm, yes, and I would like to add to that if I may. I think it's incumbent upon people of color, when you find an ally, hold us accountable.Robin: Oh, yes. Thank you. Mm-hmm.Amy: Because we need that, right? We don't always see, and we may not be holding ourselves to a high enough standard, and, you know, if you have someone you consider a true ally, please, you know, call me on it. I want to know. And, you know, I will do my best to process it in a way that doesn't involve you, right? [laughs] But, you know, please hold us accountable as allies in this work, because, you know, if we aren't getting it right, we have, you know, a pretty poor shot of helping anyone else get there.Robin: Yeah, and what I would add is that then we also have to help each other as white people to hold each other accountable, because it's a tall order for people of color, right? Not only, you know, are there risks that we will respond well, but, you know, we're all inside this construct, so in the same way that, sure, I can seek as a woman to hold men accountable for sexism, half the sexism that's going around me I don't even see because I've been conditioned to collude with it, right? So if you just put it on my shoulders--you know, sometimes you can imagine a man saying, "Hey, just let me know if I do anything sexist," and then he's covered, right? Off he goes, and now I get to carry that, right? So we have to watch that piece of it, right, where a lot of white people will say, "Hey, let me know if I do anything," and now we can relax because they'll let us know. Well, that's a pretty tall order, right? So we have to do our work and hold each other accountable too, develop the capacity so that I can also call myself in, I can realize that I just stepped in it. I'm not completely dependent on people of color helping me with that.Amy: Absolutely, and, you know, there will be times when we step in it with each other, and there will be times we step in it when we're not around for each other, and so I think it's a team sport here, accountability is. So, you know, it's election year again here in 2020, and, you know, Zach says, you know, we're gonna relive the same frustrations and feelings of hopelessness and ostracization that black and brown folks felt in 2016. In addition to that, we have generational shifts coming in the workforce. We have a lot of changing demographics, right? We're at a tipping point demographically in this company in a lot of different fronts. Do you see this as a unique point in time, and if so, what are some things that leaders can do to capitalize on this moment in history to build more equitable outcomes for the future?Robin: Yeah. I think yes, I see it as a unique time in the sense that it's so much more explicit than it's been in a while. So what this is helping us see is that history is not just this arc of progress the way that I was taught to see it, that it's cyclic, and that you can never rest and never be complacent, right? So even the Voting Rights Act has almost been dismantled, something that you'd like to take for granted but you cannot take for granted. So this kind of "We're post-racial because we had Obama as a president," we're done with that nonsense, right? I mean, nobody pretty much that I'm working with is in denial. It was actually harder to do my work during the Obama years because so many people used that as their evidence that we were post-racial. Well, you know, we're so far from post-racial right now, so the explicitness of it, the permission that I actually think the resentment about Obama brought to the surface--it was always simmering under there, but there wasn't permission to express it, you know, post-civil rights. Well, you know, from the highest point we have that permission now, so that has exposed both the enduring nation of white hostility, white resentment, the cyclic nature of history so that we can never be complacent. And in the same way that it has made it more acceptable to be openly racist, it has put on--I never thought in my lifetime, on a debate stage, people would be talking about reparations for African-Americans, right? So there are also ideas that have been given air and legitimacy that we could never bring up before. So it's kind of this push/pull, right, that's going on. As far as the generational shift, I think one of the things we're up against with younger people is they believe that they are post-racial because "Oh, I'm fine with black people. I was on a sports team in school and it's no big deal," and so they have this really simplistic idea, again, of what it means to be racist, and one of the things that stood out to me--I did a year of intensive workshops for a large tech company that for some legal reason must remain unnamed, and what really struck me was that most of the employees there were under 30, and when we would have these workshops and people of color, black people in particular, would share the pain that they were in, their white colleagues under 30 years of age were dumbfounded. They were, like, flabbergasted that their colleagues were in so much pain. They simply had no idea, which means they have no critical thinking and they have no skills and they have no awareness even as they say, you know, they party on the beach with their black friend. That doesn't mean they're able to engage with what their friend is experiencing. This is a challenge we have with the new generation. And so organizations have to truly demonstrate that they're committed to this. They have to put some teeth behind their claim that they value diversity and take a stand, right? If you're gonna work for this company, you have to be able to engage with some complexity and nuance in this conversation, and if you can't you are not qualified to work here. If it was a qualification to be able to engage with some nuance in conversations about race, most of the people leading the organizations that are listening right now wouldn't have their jobs. Let's be honest. It doesn't mean you can't gain that, but you better show some capacity to gain that nuance and complexity or you're not qualified to work here. That's what I would love to see in corporate America.Amy: That would be beautiful. And with that, Robin, I thank you for your time. I thank you for joining us on Living Corporate. On Zach's behalf, I'd like to thank you for being here, and I know that he's thrilled to be home with the baby right now, but I know that he was so disappointed that he had to pass this off, so. It has been an absolute honor and privilege to talk to you today. Thank you so much.Robin: Well, you are so welcome.

On the eighth installment of our See It to Be It series, our amazing host Amy C. Waninger sits down to chat with Uso Sayers, CISA, an IT Audit Professional with over 14 years of public accounting experience who currently works as a managing director at Johnson Lambert LLP. Uso graciously shares a bit about how she got involved in public accounting and what about it appealed to her, and she names a couple organizations that help people of color feel supported and connected within the public accounting and IT audit field. She also discusses what surprised her about this work that she didn't expect going in, and she and Amy emphasize the importance of finding the place where you're different and going to listen.Connect with Uso on LinkedIn.Learn more about the National Association of Black Accountants.TRANSCRIPTAde: What's up, y'all? This is Ade. Before we get into Amy's episode, I wanted to share some advice on working remotely. For those of us who are impacted by COVID-19, more commonly known as coronavirus--or if you're not at all impacted by COVID-19 but you are working and transitioning into a more remote lifestyle--I just wanted to share six quick tips that you want to try out to work for you. I do want to say that I don't necessarily abide by all of these rules. I simply know that they are good things to follow based off of me implementing them at some point or another or folks who are better, smarter than me offering these things up as advice. So first and foremost, I would set up a strict calendar. By that I mean I would accept every invite for every meeting. I would have any break times that I wanted to schedule. If there's a point when you're working remotely where you have a cleaner or a plumber or you have a doctor's appointment, keep an updated calendar and make sure that you are updating your team, because it helps you work asynchronously across your team. If folks know that you're not gonna be available between the hours of 5:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. Eastern time because you're asleep, or some psychos are in the gym, it gives them an opportunity to not pester you while you're away but also think through some questions of how they may better utilize your time when you do get back online. My second tip would be to use check-ins with your co-workers. By that, I mean use your daily stand-ups [?]. Use your Slack team channels if that's a thing. Use those things to keep in contact with your teams, because it's very easy to lose perspective in a sense and lose empathy for your friends or for your coworkers if they're not constantly top of mind. So in that sense, I would remember, you know, team birthdays. Maybe establishing a Slack reminder that it's someone's birthday [and] you all should go drop a Happy Birthday gift in their messages. All of that to say [laughs] that if you can remember to treat your teammates as teammates, as people, not just, you know, an avatar on the other side of the conversation you're having about poorly deployed code, it makes for a better work environment, as distributed as it may be. Thirdly--and these also sort of go hand-in-hand, but I would say that you should over-communicate. This also kind of ties into your strict calendar. Over-communicate. Ensure that any time away from your desk, any planned work that you're gonna be working on, any roadblocks that you're having, you say those things before they become problems, because it's so much easier to kind of get ahead of the horse before it gets out of the table. I don't know if that's an idiom that people actually use anymore, [laughs] but I do think that it's important to ensure that folks aren't caught blindsided, that if you've been working on something and you're stuck on it, give people an opportunity to help you out, and give others the grace to see you where you are so that you don't foster resentment. It's much easier to get something done if you speak up about it sooner rather than later, and it's difficult. I know, for one, it's something that I've had my issues with, especially in situations where you are, you know, bound to your home. Reduce your stress levels and just ask for help. Actually there was one thing that I didn't mention at the top when I said "Set up a strict calendar." On your calendars, I also recommend that you put your self-cues. If you're someone like me who--I drink a lot of caffeine over the course of the day, and I recently spoke to a nutritionist who kind of reminded me that when you work asynchronously and when you consume a lot of caffeine, caffeine suppresses your appetite, and it causes you to fall into really unhealthy eating patterns. More often than not, when you find yourself at home throughout the day you get really comfortable--too comfortable sometimes--so I kind of encourage that you set up your calendar so that you have a routine, so that you're not just, you know, at home and not separating what is home from what is official work time. So when you're working from home, set up your calendar so that you have a routine. Have, you know, time for a shower, time for breakfast, time for the gym if that's something you do in the morning, so that you have a much more regimented schedule. And on your calendar as well, put in your hunger cues. If you're gonna eat at, I don't know, 7:00 a.m., if you're gonna eat breakfast or drink a smoothie at 7:00 a.m., it stands to reason that by maybe 11:00 you might need a small snack, so put a snack cue in your calendar. Maybe at 12:30 you're going to need your larger lunch. Put your lunch on your calendar. These things are important to help you establish a routine around your new lifestyle. Okay, we skipped back up to one, so I'm just gonna finish up with five and six. #5 is to protect your space. Whether it's that you need a physical demarcation of where work happens versus where life happens or if you're the sort of person who is able to, you know, keep up with the simultaneous demands of your work life and your home life, then it doesn't really matter where you work as long as work gets done. Just make sure you're protecting your space. Make sure that, if your close of business is 5:00 p.m., you're not allowing the fact that you work from home to have you check, you know, e-mails at 11:30 p.m. when you're supposed to be asleep. Ensure that you're protecting your space and establishing boundaries in that way, and help others understand and protect those things by communicating what your boundaries are. Just because we're working from home and we're mandated to work from home doesn't mean that my time after, you know, 5:30 p.m. is available to you, and if you see me online, mind your business. As far as you are concerned I am off work, unless it is a dire emergency. And then the sixth thing is don't forget to move. It's very easy, I know. I fell into the trap of eating inconsistently, over-indulging, under-indulging, such that after I had worked remotely for a while I realized that it was getting harder for me to, like, move physically, and it's easier to get ahead of that by simply incorporating movement into your day so that you don't develop back problems or spine problems or anything like that as far as your abilities may allow, but I also think that it's a good way to get out of the monotony and to inject some freshness and a fresh perspective into your day. If you just incorporate a quick 10-minute walk or maybe do some squats or, you know, whatever it may be that you can incorporate into your life to make your life easier, that is helpful and beneficial to you and obviously doesn't take away from you enjoying your day, I would say you should incorporate those things. I've been blathering on for a while. I hope these tips helped you out. Please let us know if there are any tips that work for you when you work remotely or asynchronously with your teams. That's it for now from me. Thank you so much for listening in. Next up you have Amy.Amy: Hi, Uso. Thank you for joining me.Uso: Hello, Amy. Good evening. It's my pleasure.Amy: Thank you. So I was wondering if you can tell me a little bit about your job as a tech auditor and how you got into that work.Uso: Okay, sure. So being in public accounting, I guess you could say I happened upon it. So I had an undergrad in accounting, and I was in grad school studying finance. Given that I had accounting background I figured, "Hey, finance will be a good thing that can, you know, supplement and complement my accounting degree." So I started doing that and I realized I really didn't like finance, so I added information systems as a second major. But doing that opened up--because this was back in 2002 to 2004 when Enron was happening, [?] was going down, so SOX became a big thing. I graduated in '04, and SOX--you know, filers had to be compliant with SOX in 2004, and--Amy: And SOX is the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation that sought to put some protections in place for consumers because companies were behaving very badly.Uso: Exactly. [laughs] I could not have said that better. And so most companies, especially large companies, were required to have IT audits performed. They had controls that they had implemented, and these controls needed to be validated. So that's kind of how I got into the [?] realm. Now, fast-forward 15 years, I'm still doing it because I absolutely love it. I love learning about companies and understanding their control structure so I, you know, can figure out how we can help them, how we can give them recommendations that they can implement.Amy: And when you talk about control structures, you mean things like separation of duties or checks on security so that the people who are accessing the system only have certain rights, the minimum rights that they need to do what they need to do and not extra stuff, right?Uso: Yes, exactly. So, you know, most of the company's financials come from one of the systems, and what was happening back in the day, one person can take a transaction through the system without anyone else touching that transaction. So I can create a vendor, I can pay that vendor. I can then determine where that check goes where that vendor, which leads to fraud or could lead to fraud--errors too, but fraud is one of the bigger reasons, because one [?] could pretend to be a vendor and the company never get any products or services, but I'm also the receiving clerk, so I can check off that this item that we've ordered has been received, and then I send the payment. Or I can even do it for myself, you know? Create some type of a dummy company with my address and then pay myself that way, and a number of companies actually lost money that way. But then there are also other ways outside of just fraud. You can have errors. You can also just have things that are--when you are developing code, and I know we're kind of getting into the technical realm, but when you're--and that's where a lot of errors could potentially happen, but when you're developing code you have the ability to determine how things are being calculated. So you can determine that 1 times 1 is equal to 100 versus 1, and if there aren't checks and balances in place to validate that 1 times 1 is 1, then, you know, the company could be losing money and not realize it. I always remember when I was in college, one of the things they always talked about was the [Lloyd fraudware?]. I think the guy changed one of the configurations by, like, a penny, and he was siphoning that to his own account, and I think he ended up getting millions of dollars.Amy: Oh, my gosh.Uso: You know, so now having--ensuring that the same person who is creating and developing the configuration is not the person who is making that configuration the final configuration in the system, or at least having somebody inserted to check it and make sure it's doing what the company thinks it's doing, you know? That's kind of what we call the control structure.Amy: Got you. Uso: Now, with cybersecurity, the security piece is getting focus. I think with SOX, this change management piece was the big deal then. Security was important, but now with cybersecurity and personal information and protecting that personal information, security is being put on the map so to speak.Amy: Mm-hmm, very good. So I know you got into this kind of a little by accident, because you were down the accounting path and then you just got interested in the IT side of things, but what surprised you about this work that you didn't expect before you got into it?Uso: It is interesting. You know, when you--at least I when I thought of accounting, I thought "boring." And, you know, finance to some extent, but then even though IT audit is not truly core IT, you have the ability to learn a lot about the technical side of what companies do, because before you can offer a company recommendation you have to understand what they have configured and what they have in place, what systems they have, what infrastructure those systems sit on, and then how they're securing their environment, how they're ensuring that, you know, they're protecting--another big area in the IT control realm is that [?] recovery. If we remember 9/11, a number of companies went under because all of their operations were in that building. You know, Tower 1 or Tower 2. They did not have any of that information backed up to a different location. Now we all have phones, and you'd be surprised to know how many people do not back up their pictures and their contact information outside of their phones. So the phone falls in some water, and that's all of their information. And so, you know, that's also one of the areas that we look at, because in 2018, 2019, there's still companies that do not back up data or do not back up frequently, which may sound surprising. [laughs] But it is true. And helping them understand why it's important, or understand why it's important to back it up to something other than the machine where you have the information or outside of the building where you have your information so that you can access it if something happened. You know, you might have people say, "Well, we're not in a [?] plane." Okay, but a pipe could burst. You know? So [laughs] the risks are still there, and, you know, we help companies understand what their risks are so that they can design controls, they can help them make [?] those risks.Amy: That's terrific. So a lot of computing is moving to the cloud, and how are you managing those same risks when the companies don't own the servers and the computers that the work is really being done on?Uso: So two things. The company now has to hold their service provider, that cloud provider, accountable, and they also are still accountable, because at the end of the day it's their data. It's their information. As a client of theirs, I gave them my information. I did not give the cloud my information. So when something happens, I go to the company that I gave my information to. So what companies are doing, there's something called a SOC report, Service Organization Controls report. So the cloud service providers have auditors come in and review their controls, and one of the reasons why the cloud service providers are so successful [is] because they're doing such a large-scale operation. They can afford to have, you know, the best auditors come in, validate their controls, and they can afford to put robust controls in place. So a lot of these companies--the larger cloud providers I guess I should say, because some of the smaller ones are not as sophisticated, but the larger ones, they have very robust controls in place, and they love to have auditors come in and look at it and try to tear it apart so that they can demonstrate that their controls are robust. And even those large companies have incidents happen, you know? That's why the Amazons of the world, they have data centers on both coasts and different places, because things happen, and for companies that do not have the infrastructure in place to support that in house, putting it on the cloud is probably the next best thing because it's going into a secure infrastructure. Now, where some companies think, "Oh, I just put it in the cloud. It's okay." You have to ensure--the cloud companies, in those SOC reports there's something called complementary user entity controls, and what that says is I have this gate, but you design the lock, and you design who has access to that lock. And companies don't realize that, so they think "Oh, it's in the cloud. It's okay," but no, there are those complementary user controls. If you are not doing those things, then the cloud service provider can say, "Well, we did what we're supposed to do, but they came in through the gate. We put up the fence of the infrastructure, but the people came through the gate because they didn't put a lock on the gate like they were supposed to." They will tell you what are the things--you know, they may say, you know, "You must authorize all users that are granted access," or for firewalls, the firewall is kind of the router, I guess, so to speak. I'm trying to find a good way to explain it, but the firewalls protect the network. So, you know, if you have internet traffic, it has to flow through the firewall. The firewall validates that this traffic is coming from a computer that's authorized before it can view your information. But you have to set up the firewall to do that. The cloud service provider is not configuring your firewall to tell which of your people can come in and view your information, and sometimes companies don't realize that. So it's easier, but you have to take the steps to also ensure that you're doing those things that you need to do.Amy: Thank you for that. So, you know, I think it's fascinating the way this role is changing in terms of IT and just all of the technology that's available and the way our platforms are changing. I grew up in IT back in the day, and it seems like this is a place that is ripe with opportunity for people just coming out of college or maybe even looking for a career change. What would you say to someone who's interested in learning more about whether or not they might be a fit for this industry? What kinds of resources are available to them to learn more?Uso: And this is tricky, 'cause I wish schools--and I think some schools are getting there, 'cause ideally the colleges will be providing guidance in this area because there's so many career opportunities in the IT field, even in public accounting. So even the traditional--you know, even the traditional accountant or auditor is different now. For the financial audit teams, they're adding data scientists and they're adding data analysts, so those are fields that maybe five to ten years ago, it wasn't a thing, and people may not know that. Even four years ago, some people entered school and that was not a career path, and now in your graduating years it's an opportunity. Project manager, you know? You know, if you're on the company side, project managers are in great demand. Certified information systems security professionals, you know? They're in great demand. It can be intimidating, but Google's probably the best place to start because that usually has the most updated information. I can tell you a number of universities, and, you know, when you look up careers in auditing or careers in IT auditing, you'll see that it's no longer traditional just control management. There are risk management roles, security roles, the data roles like I said, and the data roles are becoming more and more important because of big data. You know, companies have all this data. Somebody has to analyze that data and assess it and determine, you know, how can we use it. Even for auditors, you're getting information from a company, you want to know if there's all of the information that I need. So let's say you're auditing an insurance company [and] you get a list of claims. You have to performance procedures to ensure that that list of claims has all of the claims that you wanted to see for the period of time that you wanted to see it. So you may see "I need to see all claims for 2018 over a million dollars." Well, how do you know that this report that they gave you has all this information on it? You have to do some type of validation procedures to get comfortable that the information on the report is complete and then do your auditing procedures to, you know, understand and test the accuracy of it. A lot of times also the bigger firms--so in public accounting the big four firms and some of the larger public accounting firms, they also have a lot of info on their website that can potentially help. But again, that may be skewed to their company. So I would say start with just, you know, a broad search on Google depending on what aspect of IT you're interested in and then kind of use--you know, I always go for a known site. So, like, if I'm Googling something and I see Harvard is in the top six, I probably will click on the Harvard Business Review's point of view and read there first before going to the next thing, 'cause there's some things that make you go like, "Hm, I don't know." [both laugh]Amy: So what about for people of color in this industry? I would imagine that there's a predominance, especially in management ranks and probably in some of the bigger companies--I know a lot of the bigger companies are really committed to diversity initiatives, but I would imagine that it's common for a person of color who goes into this work to be the only on their team or the only in their department. What resources or organizations are available in this industry so that people can feel supported, feel like they have a community in this space?Uso: Right, yeah. And it's interesting. So public accounting generally, yes, is still pretty traditional, all white male, but I noticed the IT audit side is very diverse. It's very interesting, because I think it's one of those areas where your skill--yes, politics play a part, but your skill set is needed and your skill set is valued and respected. And there are an number of resources. Most of the bigger firms have affinity groups that, you know, they're either women's groups, groups that are by race, and then even for sexual and gender-type diversity, there are groups for that. And then outside of the firms there are also various groups. You know, there's Women in Technology. There's the National Association of Black Accountants. There's the National Society of Black Engineers. There are a number of affinity groups that are out there that focus on helping minorities 1. connect with each other and 2. be exposed to the resources and development that they need in order to progress in their organizations, and it's one of those things where I personally feel like it's--when I started in public accounting, I was a member of the National Association of Black Accountants, and I felt like that really helped me to 1. understand what it takes to be a professional. It helped me to expand my network, because I got to meet not only people in my firm, but also people in other firms. I got to meet professionals at my level, professionals that were higher than me, professionals that were my gender, my race also outside of that, and that really helped me to have a wider view, a wider point of view and different points of view, as I progressed through my career. Some people feel as though these groups sometimes hinder your career, and I say it only does that if you're not being smart about how you're using your time. Because sometimes I think people only use this opportunity for social networking. They don't use it for any technical development. They don't use it to help auditors--like, one of the errors I have focused on as I was coming up in my career was the development of [?] students. So things that I learned, I would go back and present on campus or, you know, in that I was director of student [?] services, so, you know, help them build some of the governance documents, and even talk to some of the professors about some of the things that I'm seeing and things that they should be implementing and instilling in their students. So I'm a firm believer in it. Now, I can tell you that my white counterparts will always be like, "Well, why do we need a group for black people? What would happen if we had a group for white people?" It's like, "Kind of technically we do." [laughs]Amy: [laughs] Kind of all the groups are for white people unless they're saying specifically that they're not.Uso: Yeah, 'cause I think sometimes you get discriminated against. You know, people don't want to do it because they don't want to say that "I'm in this group," that, you know--and the group may be, you know, black or Latino or whatever in the name. There's alpha. There's also the [?] for the Asians, but even though the groups have that in their name, we welcome everyone, because we realize that we need that perspective from, you know, the white male manager, the white female manager, because they're the ones that can help us understand what their points of view are, and then we can also help them, because sometimes they realize, "Oh, wait. My view might be skewed," or "I was never exposed to anyone outside of my town, my city, my race," you know? So usually it's a two-way learning experience.Amy: So I want to put a really fine point on that, because I always tell people, "Go to the conference that's not for you. Show up at the meeting that's not for you. If you're at a conference, go to the breakout where you're not on the menu." Right? Like, find the place where you're different and go listen, because I think it's important for people--you know, the same person who says, "Why do we need an association of black accountants?" That's the person that needs to go to the meeting to listen, to learn why they need associations of black accountants, right? They have no ideas what kinds of barriers are in place for people who don't look like them, and so, you know, I always challenge people and they say, "Well, yeah, but, you know, how do I even learn about this?" Go sit down in the back of the room, don't raise your hand, take notes, pay attention, and--"What if someone asks me what I'm doing there?" And I say, "Tell them you're there to learn, and then zip it." [Uso laughs] Like, nobody's going to ever get mad at you because you want to learn more about their experience, right? So thank you for being on that train with me.Uso: And I've had people who have said being in that room where they were the only really opened their eyes, because they're sitting there and they're like, "Oh, my goodness. I'm so uncomfortable." And then they start realizing, like, "This is so-and-so from my group who is the only. This is probably how they feel." And I think sometimes that's such good advice to give, because going out there and experiencing, there's nothing that compares to that. Hearing second-hand about it, I don't think you could fully appreciate it. I also liken it to parenthood, you know? Before you have a child, you have all of these things that you know exactly how to raise a child, how a child should behave, everything, and then you have yours and you're like, "Oh, my goodness. This is not anything like I thought it would be. I can't control my child. My child runs wherever." You know, you can't keep up, and you start to appreciate parents more because you realize how difficult it is to be a parent. So sometimes you do have to sit in that person's shoes so you can understand what they experienced.Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so funny because I--yeah, I think my kids--on that point, I think each one of my kids exists for the sole purpose of proving me wrong on something I said before I had children. [both laugh] I don't want to get off-topic, but yes, you are right about that. It is so much easier to be a good parent before you have kids. But I think for a lot of people, you know, that self-awareness and that self-consciousness that they feel for the first time, you know, people can go a long way through their lives with never having that kind of moment where they have to be self-aware and they feel very self-conscious, and when they realize in that moment that other people have felt that way for, you know, 25, 30, 45, 50 years, right, in their careers, and, you know, I think there's just an amazing amount of empathy that can happen in those epiphanies. So I'm so glad to hear someone else say, "Come to the meeting."Uso: Yes, it's so important. And you can never, never not benefit from being there. It will be uncomfortable. I cannot promise you that it won't be uncomfortable, because people will probably look at you like, "Hm. Is she [?]?" "Do I have to be careful what I say?" Because sometimes, you know, people do--in some of these meetings, people do get a level of comfort where they share openly, and sometimes when there's somebody in the group that's of that group that they're talking about they may not share as comfortably, but you need to be there. You need to understand some other things that people see. And I always, even to my colleagues and black friends, I'm like, "You have to also look on the other side." So some of them, you know, yes, at work we're usually only, but sometimes going to some of these other conferences and understanding the expectations can help us also. So I have always tried to go to my NABA conference, but I also go to my ISACA conference, which is, you know, the Information Systems Audit and Control Association, which governs the work I do, and now that I'm in the insurance industry I go to the, you know, insurance accounting and systems association conference because I want to develop the technical knowledge and the technical skills so that I can have those conversations and be comfortable. I mean, you start to realize there are some people who are just idiots and that's just who they are, but more and more when you go out and meet other people, you realize that getting people and having them learn a little about you and you learn about them breaks down some of those barriers, because a lot of things are just perception. They're not reality. They don't really just hate you because you're a black woman, you know? Sometimes they just--they don't know what to say to you, and for me it's a little harder because am I a black woman, I'm a black woman from a different country. [laughs] So some of the things that are culturally acceptable and expected, I don't always know about it, and my friends always--you know, they gave me the whole "Bless your heart" kind of thing [laughs]. There's some things that I just don't know, but I am not afraid to learn. I am not afraid to learn, and I'm always going out there so that I can learn and develop and become a better person.Amy: I think that's fantastic. So you and I had talked before about--I'm gonna switch gears a little bit on you, but you and I had talked before about how each of us, you know, people in general, we kind of contribute to the de facto segregation and the narrowing of our own professional networks and our own communities and, you know, only hanging out with people who are just like us until we had that moment when we realized, "Oh, my gosh. I've done this to myself and I didn't even realize it," and I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your experience with that.Uso: Sure. So when I moved to the U.S. and I started my public accounting career I was in New York, and I remember my first time going to training. It was, let's say, 2,000 professionals, and the black professionals were a very small group there. We were there for two weeks. The first few days, I would always go find my friends and, you know, go sit at that table, and I don't remember if somebody said something to me, I don't remember what it was, but one day I decided, "You know what? Let me just go sit at one of these tables," and I can tell you, I mean, of those 2,000 people, if we had 100 people who were not white, that probably was a large amount. So, you know, I'll go a little bit off-topic for a second. I always hear people say, you know, "Oh, is that so-and-so?" And they may take you for somebody else, and then black folks will be like, "Why do they think we all look alike?" Being in that room, like, there were, like, so many guys that, to me, I couldn't tell who was Joe from Jim from Bob. [That] made me, like, really understand how it is that we can all look alike, but side-note. But being in there and looking around and seeing all of these different people, you know, I thought "Let me go sit from people who are not from New York, who are not black, who I've never met before." So I started, for lunch and dinner breaks, just going to sit at random tables with people that I had not met before. You know, I developed relationships. I met people who I was so similar to that, you know, it was very interesting. And after that, even at work, you know, I started having conversations, and I remember I was on a team once, and then--you know, I always said that if you heard the conversations and the things we talked about as a team or the shows that we watch, the music we listen to, and people just told you the thing and you had to map it to the person, you would get it wrong, because the person who could quote the movie Friday was not the black girl on the team, and the person whose favorite movie was Pretty Woman was not the white girl on the team, you know? And that's when I started realizing that we have a lot more similarities than differences, and the only way I got to know that was to step out of my comfort zone and go meet people that I had not met before and be uncomfortable. And it wasn't even--I mean, yes, at first, you know, it takes a little [?], but once you sit there, people are pretty friendly. There are some who are not as friendly, but for the most part people were friendly and willing to, you know, open up.Amy: Thank you for sharing that. You know, I think if we all start with just being a little uncomfortable at first, and then what used to be a little uncomfortable becomes comfortable, and then we start to be a little uncomfortable again, and pretty soon you build that muscle memory to where it's not all that uncomfortable anymore.Uso: Yep. And I'll share another story. I have two kids. I have an almost 9-year-old and a 6-year-old, and I remember when my son, who's the older one, was in preschool and we had to look for an elementary school, we looked at a number of schools. Private schools, public schools, charter schools, and one of the things that--I think he was in pre-K, and he was telling us about a friend in his class and something that he said, but he wanted to--so he told us the boy's name, but we didn't know--we didn't recognize the name, so we were like, "Oh, which one is this?" And he's like, "Well, the one that looks like people on TV," and we realized he didn't have, you know--'cause he had just started his new preschool, but before that, all of the years that he was in preschool, it was a predominantly black preschool. So he didn't have any white boys in his school, and then we started looking around and realizing that that was our network. So we made a concerted effort that wherever he goes to real school is going to be a diverse place, because he really shouldn't have to describe somebody based on what they look like on TV. He should know them, be able to relate to them, and have relationships with them, and it's so great now to see that he has such a diverse network and that I feel like I can't wait to see kind of what their future looks like, 'cause I think they will have a different perspective on diversity than we do, 'cause to them it's like, "That's just my friend." "That's not my white friend, that's not my black friend. That's my friend." Amy: Oh, I sure hope so. And I think there's another angle to that too, which is that it's sad that the representation that he sees on TV is so predominantly white.Uso: Different story, but yes. [both laugh]Amy: I didn't want to let that moment pass. I think that there's another lesson in there about media and representation and those sorts of things, but, you know, I'm grateful. I'm grateful for other parents out there who can, you know, self-reflect on the kinds of experiences and exposure that their kids are getting and say, "Oh, we need to be intentional about this. We need to be intentional about bringing more diversity and exposing our children to different types of people." I was wondering. I know that you have experience as a volunteer leader within some of the companies that you've worked in around bringing together diverse employees and their allies, and I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what drove you, what motivated you to do that work--which can be exhausting and thankless and on your own time and in addition to your day job--and also just a little bit about what you got out of that experience?Uso: Yep, sure. I think I've always had a servant/leader-type mentality, because growing up my dad always, for birthdays and holidays, took us to places where we could volunteer to help others. He was a baker, so we would bake, and then we would serve--you know, he'd take us to different homes. One was a children's home for children who had polio and then one was an old people's home. When I moved to the U.S., I first started volunteering at the library for people who couldn't read, and I realized--the thing that attracted me was this flier that said, "If you can read this you can help, because there are people who can't read this." And I was like, "Really?" And I met people who were over 21, all the way up to, like, 60, who couldn't read, and I'm talking about don't know that t-o-i-l-e-t is toilet. They just use the picture of the door to know that that's where they go to use the bathroom. In school I volunteered. [?] I used to help kids with homework, but once I got into the profession and I realized that there are opportunities 1. to network with others like myself, but also to help others in the firms, I loved it. I jumped at that opportunity. So I moved from New York to Indiana in my second year as a professional, and being in Indiana, I did not have a lot of others that looked like me in the firm. We didn't have enough to have, like, a black employees network, so we ended up in a multi-cultural circle, which was great because we had people from different parts of the world, different genders, different thought processes, and because we didn't have, like, black partners or Indian partners, our leaders were the white partners. So that really helped us 1. we got the support we needed, but 2. we were able to have conversations and understand what it took to grow in the firm. One of the things that I did was to organize these many--what did we call them? It was, like, Breakfast with a Leader. So each partner would meet with three to four professionals from the group for either lunch or breakfast and just get to know each other. That was so powerful, and I still have relationships with some of those people today even though I'm no longer with that firm. And, you know, one of my partners was always telling me about this client contact that he wanted me to meet, and, you know, people always tell you they want you to meet people, but when I finally met the person he wanted me to meet, the first thing the person said to me is "This guy really respects you. He has been telling me about you for the past year." And that--sometimes you don't realize that. You don't have that. You don't get that. You know, people will say whatever, but they don't follow up with their actions and match it, and so I think that whole experience, I still say that I think 1. if I stayed in Indiana I probably would still be with that firm, but that just really helped me to grow as a person, helped me understand my weaknesses, things I need to develop, helped me educate others on us as a group and help them see, you know, us as we are high-performing professionals just like everybody else. We just have differences, but those differences are not hindrances. So, you know, educating them and then educating ourselves. It was just a really powerful experience.Amy: That's breaking down the walls between you, right? And I think so many times people look--when they look mentor, they look for people who are just like them because that's what's the most comfortable. Not because there's any animosity, right, between them and another group or not because they harbor any ill will, just because they don't want to be uncomfortable with that first minute either, and so what you really did was you took away that discomfort and opened up--you know, opened up the channel for people to be mentored and, you know, for executives to find mentors that didn't look just like them, and that's powerful.Uso: Yep, it was very powerful, and it's really helpful because a lot of times you really do try to go to people who look like you, and one of the things that I've learned is you need people as mentors who have had similar experiences to you, but it doesn't matter what they look like. If you are a high-performing individual who is on the fast track in your company, it is very helpful for you to have a high-performing mentor, because having a mentor that may take, you know, three or five years less than you would take to get to a level, they may not understand what you need to do to get there because they didn't do that, but having a white mentor versus a black mentor probably won't make a difference to you, because what you need more is someone who has the technical capabilities and the connections to get you where you need to go, and I think people undervalue the need to have advocates, 'cause the advocates are the people who have the power to connect you and also sell you and get you to where you aspire to go. Having a mentor is great, but if your mentor does not advocate for you, you know, then you may not be getting the best out of that relationship, and I think sometimes why people try to build the relationship, the mentor-type relationship, with people who look like them is because they may have tried to develop a trusting relationship with someone who broke that trust, and then they associated that, breaking that relationship, with the person's race. No, that person is probably a person who would have broken somebody's trust regardless of who it is that they're mentoring. And yes, I do, you know, accept that there are people who haven't [?] somebody different. They may have acted differently, but I'm learning now that it's a smaller group of people. It's not as large a group of people as we think, and sometimes we generalize that one-off experience and kind of take the brush and paint the whole wall with it to say, you know, "All white men, you can't trust them because this is what happened to me," but you'll learn that sometimes you can trust people more than you think and a lot of the people who have helped me in my career have not looked like me. A lot of them were not my same gender, and, you know, they were very honest with me, and I think what was helpful was for me to be open-minded and receive information, 'cause what I've learned is sometimes we're not receptive to constructive feedback, and because of that we are not given the truth, so we don't really know the reason why we didn't make it to the next level. And a lot of times it's not just because of what we look like, but it's because of what our work output looks like. Which, you know, as we all know, there is no color there, you know? But if you don't know if your work is not of the quality that is, you know, expected of you, you may not know that you need to improve your work quality.Amy: That is true, and a lot of times we have to have trusting relationships to get good feedback. You have to build that relationship first so that people know that they can trust you with their feedback. How you receive feedback is so important as to whether you will get it a second time, and I tell people, don't punish the people who praise you, because if somebody's giving you a compliment, if somebody's telling you you did a good job and you belittle that praise, they're not gonna tell you next time, and you're not gonna know when you're on the right track, and you may hear something constructive that you don't want to hear, but if you can say, "Thank you for making me better. I'd like to think about that," even if you do nothing with it--if all you say is, "Thank you. I'd like to think about that," that goes so far in building a relationship with someone. And then if you do actually think about it and come back to them with questions later, even better, right? Because they know that you really have a desire to improve. So spot on. Oh, I love talking to you. [both laugh]Uso: And it is hard, 'cause you do not want to hear that you suck. [both laugh] You know? You don't, and I can tell you that I have received feedback that hurt me to my core, and I'm sure my facial expression and my reaction was not the most receptive, but I went away and realized, "Oh, my goodness. This is true," and one of the things that I had to realize--there is this one person who I had one shot to work with her, and I had come to her with a lot of praise and, you know, all of this stuff surrounding me, and I screwed up, and, you know, she had a lot of influence in what happened to my career that year, and I was mad, but then, you know--it took a while, but then I realized she only had one shot at me, and I screwed that shot up, you know? She didn't find all of the errors in my work. I put the errors there. I missed the stuff. But at the time it was happening it was not easy for me to realize that, you know? You have to really sometimes, like you said, just say, "Thank you for making me better," and go away and think about it and not just be like, "What? When? Where? How? What? I didn't--" You know? "Thank you for making me better." I like that. I think I'm gonna use that. [both laugh]Amy: So in the time that we have left, I'd love for you to answer--like, finish two of my sentences. The first one is, "I feel included when _______."Uso: I feel included when my opinions are asked and respected.Amy: And the second sentence is, "When I feel included, I ________."Uso: When I feel included, I am happy, and I'm usually looking for ways to help include others. Amy: Thank you so much, Uso.Uso: My pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity.Amy: This was so much fun, and I hope we get to talk again soon.Uso: I'm sure we will.Amy: All right.Uso: All right, take care.

Hi everyone! Welcome back for another week of reviews here at One Movie Punch! This week, we have a mixture of film reviews for your enjoyment. On Monday, I’ll be reviewing THE RHYTHM SECTION (2020), starring the incredible Blake Lively in a potential franchise launch. On Tuesday, we’ll be picking up the first of two reviews from Jon-David, aka Mafia Hairdresser, who will be joining the podcast as a regular contributor going forward. He’ll be reviewing THE CAVE (2019) this week, an excellent companion piece to last week’s FOR SAMA (Episode #703). On Wednesday, I’ll be reviewing CLOSURE (2018), a daytime comedy noir which will include interview segments from writer/director Alex Goldberg. Thursday will see the return of Christina Eldridge, aka Durara Reviews, who will be tackling perhaps the most unlikely animated film nominee at this year’s Oscars, KLAUS (2019). Andrew returns on Friday with another Fantastic Fest feature, this one heading towards a limited to wide distribution in theaters, entitled THE LODGE (2019). And on Saturday, I’ll finally be reviewing the powerful documentary TRANSFORMER (2017) as part of our Under the Kanopy series. Of course, today we have our first Sponsor Sunday event for the year, with a film chosen by our third sponsor, Matthieu Landour Engel. We had the pleasure of reviewing Matthieu’s short ZERO M2 late last year in Episode #661, along with the full interview in Patreon Episode #P019, still publicly available at patreon.com/onemoviepunch. We were very honored to have him join the growing list of sponsors last year, and that made him eligible for Sponsor Sundays today. Every sponsor at One Movie Punch gets the opportunity to force me to watch and review a film, but I can’t really say watching David Lynch’s DUNE (1984) is something I need to be forced to do. If you want to get in on the action for Sponsor Sunday, head over to patreon.com/onemoviepunch and sign up at any level. A promo will run before the review. Also, because Matthieu is such an awesome person, in lieu of any specific promotion of his projects, he’s asked me to put a plug in for Darcy Prendergast’s recent short film TOMORROW’S ON FIRE, which is currently available on Vimeo. The short film is being used to raise awareness and funds for the recent Australian wildfires. As someone who has had to evacuate twice due to wildfires, I can certainly appreciate this effort. You can find Darcy’s work on Twitter at @d_prendergast, on Facebook @ohyeahwow, and on Instagram @dancy_predatorghast. Check the show notes for a link to the short film, or check social media. Tomorrow’s On Fire by Darcy Prendergast LINK: https://vimeo.com/383034313 Subscribe to stay current with the latest releases. Contribute at Patreon for exclusive content. Connect with us over social media to continue the conversation. Here we go! ///// > ///// JOSEPH: “And now, One Movie Punch presents an interview about the real star of DUNE (1984), the unnamed House Atreides pug, with his only remaining descendent, in a segment we like to call...” JOSEPH: “PUGS! IN! SPACE!” JOSEPH: “Translations will be handled, as always, by One Movie Spouse. So, what is your name?” AMY: “I do not have a name. My father did not have a name. My father before him did not have a name, who played in the film. In fact, I find names to be outdated, human concepts, which David Lynch was trying to move beyond in this questionable adaptation.” JOSEPH: “Wow, that’s a very... uhhh, astute observation.” AMY: “Thank you. You are a lot more polite than your other human counterparts.” JOSEPH: “Right. So, let’s get to the movie. What was it like for him to be the only pug on set?” AMY: “It is my understanding that he faced major discrimination because of his breed. You know, pugs were originally bred as companions for Chinese Emperors, before they became the toast of the town in Europe. But even back then, my ancestor could feel the rising anti-pug discrimination we see in today’s Internet memes and videos.” JOSEPH: “That’s quite insightful. Did everyone treat him as a mere animal, or...?” AMY: “I must say that he had nothing but praise for a then young Patrick Stewart, enjoying most his time filming the battle scene. They often talked about the lack of enthusiasm he had for the part, but my ancestor assured him things would work out. And wouldn’t you know it, three years later Patrick Stewart would become Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the Starship Enterprise.” JOSEPH: “We have to wrap up here. Do you have any thoughts on the upcoming adaptation by Denis Villeneuve?” AMY: “If casting is any indication, then we might be in for a real treat. Of course, with no mention or images of the House Atreides Pug, I’m not sure this new adaptation could ever have the same refined audience.” JOSEPH: “Well, I appreciate you taking the time. I know it must have been... rough to fit us into your schedule.” AMY: “Really? A dog pun?!” JOSEPH: “My bad. On to the review...” ///// Today’s movie is DUNE (1984), the science-fiction epic written and directed by David Lynch, based on the novel written by Frank Herbert. On the desert planet of Arrakis, nicknamed Dune, a precious resource known as the spice is mined, which contains the ability to fold space. As House Atreides assumes command of the planet, young Paul Atreides (Kyle MacLachlan) discovers his destiny, gets glowing blue eyes, rides a giant worm, and, yes, has a pug companion. No spoilers. I have always been a voracious reader. Before we could carry the Internet in our pocket, or stream whatever we wanted, whenever we wanted, I would throw on some instrumental music and read. It began as a steady diet of young adult detective novels, especially Alfred Hitchcock’s “The Three Investigators”. It turned into reading nearly all the available Dungeons & Dragons novels, during the heyday of TSR, Inc., before they were bought out by Wizards on the Coast. And after I made it to college, and the Internet became a thing, an older gentleman I met in a Stephen King newsletter group recommended Frank Herbert’s “Dune”. I had seen the movie, of course, which I thought was so-so. He laughed (or however we did that before text abbreviations over e-mail) and said I owed it to myself to read the first book, or the first three, or all six of them if I felt so inclined. And after a trip to a second-hand bookstore, littered with cheap mass market paperbacks, I picked up the six for a song and placed them on the shelf for break. I was working full-time at the university during the summer, but after work I went home, made dinner, watched a little television, then headed to my room for some music and started reading “Dune”. Three weeks later, I had finished all six of them, reading voraciously on breaks, back at the apartment, even at the bar waiting for friends to show up on the weekend. I absolutely loved the books. Frank Herbert’s “Dune” series is easily one of the best science-fiction series out there. He nails that combination of hard science-fiction, not just with the science itself, but with the social and political structures, all while blending in a clear messianic hero story. Translating that rich, immersive world to the screen has mixed results, a combination of special effects limitations of the time, and the fool’s errand of trying to cram a multi-year political saga into just two hours. Contextually speaking, the practical effects are really good for 1984, a melding of classic Dino de Laurentiis production values (think CONAN THE DESTROYER and a host of lesser-known sword and sorcery films) and some attempts at cutting edge digital effects, including a shielding mechanism and the classic glowing blue Fremen eyes. Die-hard science fiction fans have learned to be forgiving with effects over the years, but not so much the general audience. Many critics, and many audience members, probably couldn’t help but lump DUNE into the other de Laurentiis pictures, much like how science-fiction is often lumped into fantasy and the other so-called pulp fiction. I adore the film score and soundtrack, by Brian Eno and the band TOTO. The sets and costumes are all excellent, and actually do the lion’s share of the world-building. World-building is where DUNE tends to struggle the most, which isn’t just trying to collapse everything into two hours. From the opening monologue, we are assaulted with information, an attempt to collapse the history into something manageable, but also I think to get the petty details out of the way for Lynch to take us on a more surreal journey through this universe, focused more on the emotions and the meaning. DUNE is chock full of Lynch’s emotional storytelling, which runs counter to Herbert’s storytelling style. The clipped dialogue and the internal monologues, all staple Lynch features, felt out of place. And once everything is set up, we go through what could easily be eight hours of content in about ninety minutes, including a two-year resistance movement. Perhaps if Lynch had the space, or the inclination, to develop the world, we could have seen a science-fiction “Twin Peaks”. I thought the film was so-so when I first saw it, and after reading the novels and seeing it again, I think I still only find it so-so. I want to close on some thoughts about the franchise, especially with the upcoming remake by Denis Villeneuve. My desire to read all six novels back in college wasn’t just because they were so great. I was also hoping to finish the novels before taking in the mini-series produced for The Sci-Fi Channel, which I found far superior to today’s film. Better effects, more time to explore, more time to marinate. I was also impressed by their follow-up series, which collapsed the next two novels to close out the initial trilogy. It didn’t do as well as hoped, either critically or with the larger audience, and there was the small franchise reboot that found massive success called, and let me check my notes here, BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. I streamed that in a couple months as well. Twenty years later, we’re getting another attempt at a remake. If anyone can manage this, it’s Villeneuve, as ARRIVAL cements his understanding of hard science-fiction, and BLADE RUNNER 2049 (Episode #332) certainly shows he knows how to take care of a franchise. Can he do what Lynch could not in 1984, with even better special effects, and a side-car television series? We’ll find out in December 2020, or maybe if it’s pushed for reshoots. I would actually want a Game of Thrones style show, starting with the prequel novels based on Frank’s notes to build up the houses, and explore the larger universe. For me, watching 1984’s DUNE is the equivalent of cramming the entire first season of Game of Thrones into a two-hour film. It was hard enough collapsing it into ten episodes, but it was such a masterful translation. “Dune”, as a franchise, would be incredible in a similar vein, especially now that producers know audiences don’t mind humongous casts, intricate plots, political intrigue, immense worlds, and tenuous characters. The series could continue into the core six novels, with the obvious series bail out points being the end of the first novel, the end of the third novel, the end of the fourth novel, and the end of the sixth novel. You could even do a split timeline show, inserting the prequels and a larger, more drawn out story of Paul Atreides on his journey. I know I would. DUNE is Lynch’s so-so attempt to adapt Herbert’s epic science-fiction novel for the big screen, perhaps an irreconcilable difference in storytelling focus. It looks and sounds great for 1984, with many of the correct pieces in place, but ultimately feels too rushed being shoehorned into a feature-length film. Science-fiction fans owe it to themselves to see the film, and I would further recommend the first novel, which fills in so many of the details missing from the film. Everyone else, just know the film also has many, many good parts, even forward-thinking parts, that are definitely worth a single viewing. Rotten Tomatoes: 53% Metacritic: 40 One Movie Punch: 6.5/10 DUNE (1984) is rated PG-13 and is currently playing on VOD.

In our seventh See It to Be It podcast interview, Amy C. Waninger chats with Kristina Smith, a diversity and inclusion strategist who assists organizations to exceed expected business results through designing and implementing diversity, inclusion and engagement strategies. Kristina explains to us how she got into her field of work, and she also shares a few resources and organizations that seek to aid any aspiring professionals in the diversity and inclusion, consulting, or training and development spaces.These discussions highlight professional role models in a variety of industries, and our goal is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals.Connect with Kristina on LinkedIn.Find out more about the Association for Talent Development.Interested in the Institute for Diversity Certification? Click here.Be sure to utilize the resources offered by SHRM.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and I'm really excited to talk to y'all about something really important today. You know we try to mix it from time to time. We have our full episodes and we have B-Sides. You know, we'll have guest hosts. We do different things. We do listener letters, you know what I'm saying? We have something else special for y'all today, and what it's called is the See It To Be It series, okay? This is an interview series highlighting professional role models in a variety of industries. The goal of this series is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals. Many of y'all should remember Amy C. Waninger. She is the author of Networking Beyond Bias, and she was a guest on the Living Corporate podcast in Season 1 to talk about effective allyship. Well, Amy has continued on with Living Corporate as a writer, and she's also blessed us with a partnership in getting a special series out. So what you're gonna hear is Amy talking to a variety of black and brown professionals, as I said at the top, from a variety of industries, and it's gonna be really cool because it's really gonna zoom in from a technical perspective on what they do while at the same time hopefully inspiring folks who may not see themselves in an industry to actually see themselves, hence the title "See It To Be It," you know what I'm saying? All right, so with that being said, I'm gonna go ahead and dip. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and an amazing minority professional. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Hi, Kristina! Thank you so much for joining me today.Kristina: Thank you for having me, Amy.Amy: It's always a pleasure to see you, and I know the last time you and I actually saw each other face to face was at the Diversity 4.0 conference in National Harbor, Maryland, and that was so much fun to see you there. It was great because you and I had met before online, through a webinar I believe, and then when we saw each other we were both just--we were doing the jazz hand, you know, girl squeal because we were so excited to meet each other in person, so.Kristina: That was a lot of fun, and I was really so excited and so thrilled that you were there. That was awesome.Amy: Likewise. So I'm glad to be with you again today. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the work that you're doing and how you got involved in that work, because I want to try to expose more young people to different industries and different roles and different opportunities that are waiting for them in the world that maybe they're not aware of already. So the first thing I wanted to ask you--so you do diversity and inclusion consulting, and I wanted to ask you, how did you get into that work? And what appealed to you about the work that you do?Kristina: First of all, I really love what I'm doing, and I feel like right now is the time to be in this arena. For many many years--I started in the field of training and development and really enjoyed helping organizations move from one level to the next, whether it was working with a team of people or an individual through coaching or team building or strategic planning. I just love that kind of work, and yet all of my life, being a woman of color, I was constantly aware of how people were impacted in school or in the workplace. So when I was growing up, I went--from first through eighth grade I went to a predominantly--actually it was an all-black elementary school, and then in high school I went to an all-white school where there were 100 students, all girls, and only four African-American students. So it was a dramatic difference, and I could see the privilege that had when I was in school that I never experienced when I was in elementary school. I could see the privilege and how people were treated differently, and the experience would just really open my eyes dramatically. So I carried a lot of, in my heart, this feeling of "Things need to be different," and I was always asking myself the question, "What role can I play in this making things different?" So going through the training and development, I had a real passion for learning. That's one of the things that just makes me me. I'm a lifetime learner, and I've been sharing information that I've learned with other people. I just love sharing information with people. So as I began to see so many organizations starting to be impacted by their lack of information about people who are different than mainstream and the impact it was having on their market share or the people that were being impacted, I just started--my heart started racing, and I started thinking, "This is the time to really start to do this work that I've been carrying in my heart since high school," really, and the forces were really coming together, and I just felt like, "Wow, this is it." So I'm so excited to have jumped into the pool in doing the work that I'm doing.Amy: I think that's fantastic. Now, what you described, I remember high school--you know, going in that, like, eighth grade, ninth grade time frame, as just a teenager as being traumatic, and what you're talking about is a whole different level of trauma - the culture shock of going from a place where you didn't have to think about--you didn't have to think about race because you were, you know, one of many, right? And then going into a place where you were other for the first time. And not just all of the adolescent drama that comes with being that age, but then that extra layer at that time to me just sounds like an intensely painful experience.Kristina: It was really intense, and it really let me know that I was very different, and what's very interesting is originally I was not accepted into the school. My grandmother was the director of guidance counselors for D.C. public schools, and she went up to the school and advocated on my behalf. But once I got into the school, I was able to discern just from conversations what people's SAT scores were, what they had done in grade school and so on and so forth, and in many cases my SAT scores were much higher than other people who had gotten in, and so at first it made me feel less than when I was going to school because I thought, "I must not be as smart as these other people," you know? And I just felt like, "Oh, wow. Maybe I don't belong here," and as I started talking to people I was like, "Oh, my God. I'm smarter than they are." [laughs] So it was interesting, but it made me realize another level underneath that. No, this is not about achievement. This is something totally different.Amy: And I think that's interesting too, that you went from having sort of an impostor syndrome approach to it to realizing that you weren't falling short of a standard that existed, you were being held to a much higher standard than had existed previously.Kristina: Exactly. That's exactly right.Amy: And I think that's the case for so many people who are onlys or one of a few, right, who are integrating spaces for the first time perhaps or, you know, even very slowly over time. So I think it's important for people to understand that, if they're going through something like that, it may be the first time where they are, but it's not the first time. [?]Kristina: Absolutely, and it does feel like that. When you are there, seemingly alone, it feels very overwhelming. It can feel very overwhelming, but, you know, I got through it, and I'm really glad I did, and I'm really glad that that which I carried in my belly for so long made me, you know, secretly yearn to do something to make it better for other people.Amy: That's fantastic, yeah. I think there are two kinds of people, right? There are people who let something like that fester and become a negative in their lives, and then there are people who almost encase it and make a pearl of it, and I'm so glad that there are people like you, that make a pearl out of some, you know, some irritant, some painful experience, because, you know, that makes it so much easier for the next generation, for the next person, you know? For the next person that experiences what you've been through.Kristina: Yeah, and it really does develop--it helps to develop compassion, you know, and an understanding. So I'm not bitter about any of those experiences. I am just on the look-out for "Who can I help?" You know, "Who can I pat on the back, hold their hand, give a hug, whatever?" Because it's a unique experience.Amy: Absolutely. So getting back to the work that you do. What has surprised you the most, or what have you discovered about the work that you do that you didn't expect before you got into it?Kristina: I just thought that with all of the companies that have experienced major faux pas, major mistakes that they've made through marketing or, you know, just some kind of advertising inappropriately their brand, that more companies would be actively saying, "We need a more diverse leadership team. We need someone that will help us not fall down the rabbit hole." And so I'm really surprised that more companies are not actively reaching out. It's like companies one after another are taking the fall. [laughs] And I have even posted on various social media platforms, "When are companies going to really wake up to the fact that they have to be thoughtful?" They need to reach out to people who are different to help them build a brand that is not gonna be negatively impacted or cause them to lose market share because they make a mistake that they're not even conscious of that in many cases that it's a mistake.Amy: Absolutely, and I'm gonna jump on that a little bit, because I see so many things in the news, right? I mean, the examples--the examples are just so many, right? We've seen it happen to Starbucks, Papa John's... what's the--Kristina: Oh, the Dove commercial.Amy: The Dove commercial. We saw it with--there was the clothing brand H&M, and was it Prada recently that had the sculptures in their store display windows? And you would think just like companies manage risk in so many other ways, right--they talk about things like cyber-security risk because that could affect their bottom line, they talk about, you know, employee theft because that could affect their bottom line, they talk about succession planning, and they talk about all of these things, right? But then they have this risk, this PR risk at a minimum, not to mention the lawsuits that come from, you know, racial discrimination in the workplace. And it seems like there's this gap of understanding that that's a risk that needs to be managed in a holistic and proactive way, just like they manage, you know, property loss or, you know, talent departure and turnover and things like that.Kristina: I hear a blog in the making. [laughs]Amy: [laughing] Absolutely. Yeah, so getting companies to understand that this pain point is just waiting for them to step in it rather than waiting until--and GM was another one in the news where they had just a horrible work environment from a racial standpoint at one of their locations, and I don't understand why a company would wait to be the next GM or the next Prada or the next H&M, why they wouldn't want to get in front of that now. So yeah, we've got some work to do, don't we?Kristina: Yeah, we do. We have a lot, but I think the thing that's so interesting to me is really how polarized we've become. When I look at the Gillette commercial that was just out recently, I loved the commercial. I thought it was really awesome, and yet it got a lot of pushback, and so I thought, "Wow, we really need to have more and more and more conversations within our families, within our communities, within organizations, corporations," because somehow there's something that's really kind of broken in one sense, that people are not understanding, and regardless of what people think, our world is changing. Our world is changing, and people are gonna be really impacted, and a lot of people are not prepared. It's like being on the beach and here comes the tsunami, and I'm not talking about people coming into the country. There are enough people in the country already who are diverse enough. The change is gonna happen.Amy: Absolutely, yeah. The population shift in and of itself within our borders, right, is enough to trigger--you would think to trigger some change in attitudes and behaviors, and when you add to that the globalization of world markets, the globalization of--most companies have, in some way, a global talent pool that they're working with. They're trying to appeal to markets that maybe they've never entered before, and that's hard to do if you don't change your internal perspective and know how to have those conversations. And so that actually brings me to a question I wanted to ask you. So there are a lot of companies now that are doing more. You mentioned Gillette, but I'm talking about internally. Not in their advertising or in their marketing but internally companies seem to be doing more to prevent sexual assault and sexual harassment in the workplace, I think as a result of the #MeToo and Time's Up movement. There seems to be a little bit more understanding or at least solidarity among women now that we're just not gonna take it anymore and we're not gonna look the other way when there's bad behavior going on. And so I'm wondering, are you seeing that in the work that you're doing? That companies are being a little bit more proactive about sexual harassment?Kristina: Yes, absolutely. And I mean, you know, most companies have had sexual harassment training, but now--and so every year most organizations have to go through--you know, their folks have to go through sexual harassment training. Now what I'm seeing is that people are really starting to step up in enforcing, really enforcing, this--what's been mandated, you know, technically or through HR. I was recently hired by an organization who--this is a tech organization. It is predominantly young white males, and it's a mid-sized company. They have maybe six to eight females, and the women were complaining of sexual harassment, but it's not really--it's more like they're being left out of important meetings, and so they were beginning to complain, and so we're working on a strategy to have conversations with the men in the organization about, you know, "How do we change this before this becomes a real problem, you know?"Amy: Absolutely, because if you're not including everyone in conversations, #1: they're missing out on information, so they can't do their jobs. But #2: you're not getting their input, and you're not allowing them to be a part of the innovation of the company. You know, you're ignoring really valuable perspectives by shutting people out, and presumably these women were hired because they were qualified and they had something to contribute. I'm wondering too though--and this is not my idea. I was at a conference, and I was listening to someone speak, and she was talking about "Why is it that we mandate sexual harassment training in the workplace but we don't mandate racial harassment prevention training in the workplace?" And I was wondering if you've seen any companies that are doing that, that are actually talking about racial harassment so that they don't become the next GM?Kristina: Well, you know, I think some of the larger companies, absolutely. So the whole thing with Starbucks was centered around race, you know? And I think some of that is going on, but not a lot, and I think primarily because for most African-Americans, they have learned to really tolerate, they've learned that this is just the way it is and you've got to learn to work with the system. However, and this is digressing a little bit but I'm aware. Sometimes I digress and I don't realize it, [laughing] but I realize I'm digressing a little bit here. You know, the National Women's March was in Washington--well, it was all over, but there was a really big one in Washington, D.C. I had a work commitment so I could not attend, but I did go to, the very next day, a conference of women that was spearheaded by Karen Fleshman, who is--Amy: I adore her.Kristina: I do too, and I got to meet her in person. She was here from San Francisco.Amy: And so Karen Fleshman is--she's an anti-racism activist, and her company I believe is called Racy Conversations, and she is a white woman who has made it her mission to lead the first anti-racist generation in the United States, and she's phenomenal. Kristina: It was really exciting. When I tell you it was exciting--because first of all, I don't know, maybe there were 120, maybe more, women who had been to--most of them had been to the Women's March. Half of the room was white females, the other half were African-American or women of color. Great conversations. Really, really, really great conversations. It was really thrilling. I was just so excited, because these women were standing up saying, "We have to take responsibility. We cannot hide behind our privilege any longer," #1, and there were just some amazing things that came out of this conference, and one of the things that came out of the conference was we made it a really safe place for people to say whatever they thought or felt without being judged or criticized. We knew we were all coming from a place from love and concern. But one white female stood up because--one of the concepts that came out of the conference, and we talked about further, was a statement made that white women should evolve enough so that women of color can lead this revolution, and a white woman said, "I'm not sure I understand why that should be the case." And you could tell that she was really grappling with why, and there was a woman--and I am so sorry I don't have her name, I'm gonna have to look her up. She was a professor, I think from Stanford University, and she teaches African-American politics, history, and she was the moderator. She was the facilitator. And one of the things that she said... "Let me see if I can help you understand." And I'm sort of putting my own spin on it, but you'll get the concept. She said, "What if you and nine of your white female friends are walking through a mountain, and all of a sudden you fall into a deep abyss in the mountain, and you're lost and you're frightened? But then you come across a group of women of color who have been in this abyss for 300 years, but they have learned to navigate what's going on down there in the mountain. They've learned how to find food. They've learned how to fend off the animals. They've learned how to survive in this abyss. Who are you gonna turn to for help? Are you gonna turn to the woman who fell in with you just, you know, four hours ago, or the people who have been there for 300 years?" It was fantastic. It was just really--and the woman said, "I get it," and everyone in that room did a collective sigh, like, "We get it. We get it." It was so powerful. It was so encouraging.Amy: And I think white women have--you know, we're new to this party, right? The oppression that we've felt has not been as severe, it has not been as acute and as sustained. Just because something's chronic doesn't mean that it's not an acute pain, and I think that for a lot of white women, you know, we're like, "Oh, my gosh." We're so tired of these conversations, and, you know, to your point, black women have been tired of these conversations for 300 years, and it's--and not only that, but I think, to the credit of black women, when black women succeed, they bring everyone else along with them. When white women succeed, we have a tendency to leave others behind, and I think that's unfortunate, and I certainly want to see a world where we're all succeeding together, and I applaud Karen and her work, and I'm so glad that you were able to see her in action and to be there and be a part of that, because to be in a room where women of color and white women can have those honest conversations I think is so important, because we've--you know, I'm coming to realize for the first time that we grew up with two sets of rules, and we were both told that those sets of rules were what kept us safe, but they were also about how to be polite. And so what I grew up as, "This is how you go about the world and navigate being polite," I'm only now coming to realize is harmful to other people, which is exactly the opposite of what I intend to be.Kristina: Right. Oh, I understand that.Amy: And it's so devastating to find out that the things that you've been taught to get you to a certain endpoint are the opposite of what are gonna get you there, and so I'm so glad that we're able to have these conversations and learn from each other and forgive each other for past transgressions and to really understand, "Hey, you know, I get that your heart's in the right place, but you're doing it all wrong." Kristina: Right. [laughs]Amy: [laughs] And somebody's there to listen to that and to accept it. [?]Kristina: Yeah, it was awesome. It was just so awesome. I was really so glad that I was there. It was just like, "Oh, my gosh." Incredible. Absolutely incredible.Amy: That is wonderful. So I'm gonna go back just a little bit. Can you tell me about--if somebody wants to do work in the diversity and inclusion space, in the consulting space, in the training and development industry where you've spent so much time, how can they learn more about that? Where can they go for information?Kristina: So a couple of different things. It used to be called the American Society for Training and Development. They've changed their acronym now to ATD, which is the American Talent Development Association I guess it is. So people can go and do some research on that. Definitely there's all kinds of school programs now that offer training and development, organization improvement, organizational development. All of those are great forays into this area, but also, even though I had done all of this work in training and development for 15+ years, probably 20, I knew that I didn't want to just jump out there and start doing diversity work. I really did some research and decided to go to the Institute for Diversity Certification. The Institute for Diversity Certification, they have--and there are other organizations, I just happened to like that particular organization. I went and studied with them. It was--at that time it was a three and a half day class and then you take a national exam, and then you also have to do a project, and the project was to be certified as a diversity professional. So there are other organizations that do that, but the Institute for Diversity Certification met my needs, and I really enjoyed the process because it takes you all the way through the history of where we started, where did this all start, where are we now, and they do a lot of ongoing workshops and seminars to keep us abreast of what's happening currently in the field, and they're constantly putting out articles and information that I find to be really, really timely and helpful. So I would say definitely reach out to one of those organizations. Now that same organization is doing online training, so you don't--I had to actually go out to Indianapolis. [laughs] It was cool because I got to meet some people that now I can network with if I'm in a situation where I'm pondering. I can pick up the phone and call someone that I've made a connection with, but you can also do that training online now. I think that's great.Amy: And what about organizations? Are there any organizations that exist specifically to help people of color connect or feel a part of something bigger in the training and development industry? Because I think, for a lot of folks, if they don't--they might be the only where they are and not realize that there's this big world out there of people that can support and help them.Kristina: So that's a really good question, and there are a couple of things. Even if you wanted to just network with SHRM, the national organization of human resources professionals, there are lots of African-American leaders who are in those roles. So that's another option. And like I said, the American Talent Development organization as well. And within those groups they have networking groups.Amy: Ok, okay. So within the broader--there's, like, a broader organization, and then there's special interest groups or affinity groups within those larger professional associations?Kristina: Yes, absolutely.Amy: Excellent. Well, Kristina, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and your insights today. This has been, from my perspective, a phenomenal conversation. I look forward to many more with you.Kristina: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Amy. I really appreciate the work that you're doing, and yes, I hope we get to chat again soon.Amy: Thank you.

We talk must watch TV, should Netflix track usage, and does this really count as stealing from Target? Plus, why Jillian Michaels statements weren't attacks on Lizzo, and we get kid advice from Kailee in Dover, DE. We also have an "Amy Reed, Life Coach" which is pretty much me telling my dates why they should date someone else. Your question of the week: What's the difference between a sign and a coincidence? TV Show: The Circle (Also watching Marvelous Mrs. Maisel and Good Girls) Subscribe to the podcast on iTunes our Soundcloud, weigh in: Twitter: @theAmyMCR IG/Snap: @AmyMCR

In our fourth See It to Be It podcast interview, Amy C. Waninger chats with Chris N. West, an opening keynote speaker and seminar leader on digital marketing. His talks have been presented to teams in Germany, Canada, and the UK. His career has taken him to 48 states. He is the Founder of LR Training Solutions, a corporate training company based in Houston, Texas. These discussions highlight professional role models in a variety of industries, and our goal is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals. Check out some of the SI2BI blogs we've posted while you wait for the next episode!Connect with Chris on LinkedIn and check out LR Training Solutions!He also has Twitter and Instagram!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every now and then we try to mix it up for y'all, 'cause--so look, dependency and consistency is really important, but even within those lanes of consistency, you gotta have a little bit of variety, you know what I mean? You don't come home and just eat the same thing every day, or even if you do--you know, you got a meal prep thing--maybe sometimes you put a little red sauce. Maybe sometimes you put a little green sauce. You know, you gotta just, you know, mix it up from time to time. Maybe sometimes you grill it. Maybe sometimes you saute. Maybe sometimes you rotisserie. You gotta just--am I hungry? Yes, I'm hungry, y'all. My bad. Listen, check it out. We have another entry for y'all from our See It to Be It series. Amy C. Waninger, CEO of Lead at Any Level as well as the author of Network Beyond Bias, she's actually been a member of the team for a while now, so shout-out to you, Amy. Yes, thank you very much for all of your work here. And part of her work has been in driving this series called See It to Be It, and the purpose of the series is to actually highlight black and brown professionals in these prestigious roles, like, within industries that maybe we--and when I say we I mean black and brown folks, I see y'all--may not even know exist or envision ourselves in, hence the name of the series, right? So check this out. We're gonna go ahead and transition from here. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and a super dope professional. I know y'all are gonna love it. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Hi, Chris. Thanks for joining me.Chris: No problem. It's good to be here.Amy: Thank you. So as you know, this series is designed to help young people, particularly young people of color, see all of the opportunities that are available to them in their careers, in the economy, and we're gonna spend a little time later just talking about specific support systems available to people of color in your industry, but first, can you just tell me a little bit about how you got involved in digital marketing, then how that evolved into a speaking career?Chris: Okay, sure. How I started, it was a while ago. I got my degree in marketing, and then I got a job at Google as a marketing specialist, and through that job, part of it was we would go around the country to talk to small business owners about how to use Google products to grow. So this was anything from Google+, Google advertisements, Google map listings, and pretty much all of the Google tools that can help a small business and also a large company out as well. So through that experience, it really helped me figure out what I would like to do long-term in the future and what it meant to me to do that for small business owners and other organizations. And once I started doing that training through all of those small business workshops, that's when I started realizing that I have kind of a skill for [?] to people. And also, not only that, but skill in digital marketing in general. So I got certified a while back in some of the e-marketing topics and decided to keep pursuing it over time. So then I ended up learning more about the industry as far as speaking after my Google experience, when I started researching more about it.Amy: So was your background--before you went to Google, was your background in marketing or was it in technology?Chris: It was in marketing actually. So yeah, it was a degree in marketing. Some of the companies I've worked for in the past, it was specifically marketing jobs, and that's before even Google. And the good thing about my experience at Google is that I would do about two to three I would say different jobs every six months, and I got to really learn what I would like to do long-term. Amy: The reason I asked about your background before you went to Google is I think a lot of people think of Google as a tech company, and if you're outside looking in you might think "Well, how would somebody without a technical background get into a tech company?" And I think the lesson from your story is that marketing is a skill that's transferable to a lot of different industries, including tech, and so we have to think not just about our industry but also about our function and how that function can be used in different industries. Have you found that to be true?Chris: Yeah, that's true. I never really thought of it that way, but yeah, that makes sense. Like, doing something that you can use in different industries as well. Because even as I was there, I was probably, say, out of 100 people, I would say maybe 10 people, you know, were minorities. Yeah, so I think it's still a challenge for them as well as far as being more diverse with the teams that they have, and especially the marketing team I was a part of, it was rare to have diversity. But yeah, having something that you can transfer to go to multiple industries and try to figure out how to stand out is really important.Amy: That's great. And so what was the biggest surprise to you about--you know, as you kind of went through school and you decided, like, marketing was gonna be your focus, once you got into the work world, what surprised you about the job or about the function that you didn't expect while you were in school?Chris: Oh, okay. I didn't expect to have to kind of, like, have to deal with the politics side of everything, you know? Like, dealing with the organizational structure. I thought I would just get the job, everybody would be fun and happy, no issues, no drama. [laughs] You know? But going in there and learning that it's not just about the job, it's also about how you can deal with different types of people with different backgrounds within the organization? So that's one of the main things I learned, and then also being able to be a leader and communicating your ideas, where as before, when I was in college, I was kind of on the quiet side, you know? So, like, learning in corporate, you have to kind of, like, communicate your ideas to the right people. So that's the one thing that I've tried to get better at over time, right, when I got into the workforce.Amy: Yeah. I think so much of success in an office or success in a business is not doing good work. I think--so I know a lot of women and a lot of people of color, we tend to suffer from impostor syndrome. We're worried that we have to kind of prove ourselves and prove that we're good enough to be where we are, and I think what we tend to miss is the political side, and it's we're spending so much time with our heads down trying to do the best job we can that we don't take time to make sure that other people know that we're doing a good job. Have you found that to be the case?Chris: Yeah, I think that's true with many people that I've met in the past as far as anybody trying to go after, like, their goals. I think people have so much--many people, when they get into the workforce, they get so much experience, but nobody knows about the experience, you know? It's like everybody, so many of you are doing awesome things, and then they don't even put it on their LinkedIn profile what they've done, you know? They don't have a--if they're trying to market and they don't have a website to showcase what they've done. And I guess some people think it might be bragging and everything, but you've got to think about who's gonna tell the story. You know, who is really gonna tell your story, and in general, no one's really--not many people are gonna know what experiences you've had unless you tell somebody or you say exactly what you did. So you just--I feel like people gotta spend time to learn how to market theirselves and kind of showcase things that stand out with their career. Amy: Absolutely. Building a personal brand is so important, and it starts--whether you're doing it intentionally or not, it starts the minute you step into the job.Chris: Yep, the minute. Yeah, it definitely changes pretty quickly. [laughs] Especially if you're trying to network within the organization and trying to get promotions. [?]. It's not just about the good work you're doing.Amy: Yep. So your brand is really what other people are saying about you, and if other people don't know that you're there, then you don't have a brand, and that's tough. It's tough to overcome that. So I always tell people, "Look, it's not bragging if it's true." So if you've actually done it you better speak up, 'cause it's not bragging if it's true.Chris: Somebody else is going to speak up for theirs though, right? You gotta stand out these days.Amy: So if somebody's not in marketing and they're thinking that might be a really good field for them, first of all, what characteristics or what strengths do you think play well in a marketing space for a person?Chris: For a person? I would say being able to look at things and figure out how to make things better, how can you improve awareness about a brand. A lot of it I feel, when it comes to marketing, you gotta have new ideas on a constant basis. So if you're the type of person that is always looking at how to make something better or maybe make something look better or you're able to connect with multiple people, I think it's definitely a good career. And as far as--there's so many different types of marketing. There's marketing yourself and then marketing at a corporation level, and if you work at the corporation level you really need to know, like, the latest trends or what's going on, what companies are using to market their organization, and these days it's not about just being able to design a brochure anymore or just being able to create a logo, it's more so people want everything, you know? They want you to know about social media, something about it. You don't have to be a complete expert, but you need to know what's going on out there as far as, like, the different channels. E-mail marketing, social media, things like that.Amy: And so if somebody sees themselves in that profile, that they're an idea person and they like staying up on trends and that sort of thing, where can they go? What kind of resources are out there to help people learn more about the industry, learn more about the function and kind of feel out if it's a good fit for them?Chris: I would say the American Marketing Association. That's where I started. That's where I got a lot of my experience, and over there you're gonna meet people that that's what they do on a daily basis for a full-time job. They're marketing managers, marketing specialists, directors, executives. So pretty much everybody [?] goes there. So they have the national level, and of course they have, like, pretty much a lot of local chapters on the professional level in pretty much all of the major cities. And even if you're a student, they have, like, a college [?], which was a part of when I was a college student. So that's the best way to start. So every month they'll give you what's new, what's going on, and they'll give you ideas on how you can stay up to date. Amy: That's great. And so I'm guessing since you're a speaker you do a lot of work with the Association now. Probably on the other side, right?Chris: Yeah. You know what? I haven't really started. I plan on it in the future, you know? [?] But I do work with other associations, but yeah, that is definitely a plus that comes with me being a part of it. I'm probably more likely to be able to speak at some of those events, so yep.Amy: So I think it's interesting, because it took me so long to even realize that--so I'm a first-generation professional, and it took me so many years to realize that associations even existed and what they were for and how I could use them, you know? And to me it's a great tragedy of my career that I didn't figure that out sooner. And it's funny, because I've done a few of these interviews now, and every time I ask somebody "How do people learn more?" They always mention an association, and I wish I would have asked that question when I was younger to people who were experienced in different fields.Chris: Yeah. It's like--so many people that go to the associations, it's part of the same goal, you know? They're all trying to reach the same goal, but then what they're doing [is] they're trying to look for new ideas from other people, and it's just, like, a good environment, and it's not--I feel like it's different from just going to a networking event, 'cause a networking event, you have so many people with different types of goals. Some people are looking for a job. Some people are looking to network for business. So it's like... usually those don't work out, but if you go to an association, it's specifically what you need. So, like, targeted basically.Amy: Exactly, and they usually offer educational sessions at their meetings or their conferences, and so, you know, you can find something depending on what your skill level is or your experience level. You can find something that is applicable to you, and then you can network with people who have similar experience or more experience and get involved and really learn and kind of build a name for yourself within your industry just by volunteering, right?Chris: Yeah, just by volunteering. Yeah, that's a good way to really get to know the right people in there. So volunteer your time whenever you can, whether it's local or national. I highly recommended it.Amy: Excellent. So can you tell me a little bit about what you think about the current or future talent demands in marketing? Do you think that this is an industry or function that's going to need to staff up over time, or do you see it kind of leveling out or trailing off in the near future?Chris: I think that the demand is gonna get higher because more and more organizations are realizing the importance of being online and understanding what's going on. So you have many people that have been in marketing for a long time, but they've done it the traditional way, so there's still, like, a high need for people to come in to do, like, the online marketing side of it, social media and digital marketing. So that continues to grow as more and more people get online, more and more people depend on it. And I think especially since organizations these days are actually making revenue from online channels, you know? Like social media and the digital marketing channels. So it's more and more needs. So I think it's just gonna grow, but yeah, definitely understanding more than just one area of marketing is what I've seen, and if you look at many job descriptions, they're gonna ask you for those multiple areas. Not just being able to use Photoshop or just social media but e-mail marketing and, yeah, everything.Amy: Excellent. So you had mentioned that when you were at Google you were maybe one of a handful of people of color in the marketing team that you were on, and I would imagine that that's the case for a lot of people of color in different companies around the U.S. I know that there's--and I'm gonna screw up the percentage, but something like 3% of marketing executives are women or something like that. Like, a really low number. They have a whole conference around it now I think. So where can people go who maybe feel a little alone or they want to get involved but they don't want to be the only in their office? What kinds of communities exist for people of color that can help them feel connected so that they can maintain their stamina while pursuing their passion.Chris: Okay. A lot of times I think there's different organizations--and, you know, if they're part of an organization, many companies are starting to have, like, communities within their organizations, such as... I can't remember. Within Google, there's, like, Black Googlers or something like that, things that are specific to a niche within your organization so, like, people can have a different experience. I mean, even in different associations there's always--there could be subgroups, you know, that specifically target a different group of people. So I'll say it starts with the associations, and then from there figure out what the other organizations specifically on, who they are, like, what kind of culture they have.Amy: That's helpful, and I think too that the importance of employee resource groups or business resource groups or affinity networks, whatever they're called, the larger companies tend to have those, where you come in and you kind of, you know, pick a group that you feel more comfortable with and find a mentor maybe or at least, you know, know where to go for some help navigating all of the politics like you said earlier and, you know, kind of getting the inside scoop on some of the unwritten rules of the workplace, 'cause those rules change wherever you go, right?Chris: Yep, yep. Or you can always create one too. [laughs]Amy: That is true. So I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about your work as a speaker. We talked a little bit earlier about impostor syndrome, and I'll get to that in just a second, but as a speaker, you know, we have to position ourselves as experts, and the term "expert," right, there's no national certification of expertise that you go and you take a test and then somebody says, "Here, you're an expert. You can use that in your brand or your title." So what do you think makes someone an expert in their field? What makes you an expert in your field?Chris: When it comes to being an expert, I would say it's really just experience. Just, like, what kind of specific experience have you had when it comes to what you're talking about or what you're doing? Because there's a lot of--I mean, literally you could just wake up tomorrow and call yourself an expert. [both laugh] So how can you stand out from everybody else? And what I always recommend is specifically getting experience. I mean, sometimes people say they can't get a job so they can't get the experience to become an expert, but you can always volunteer. You can always, like, do stuff for free for an organization. So for instance, when it comes to marketing, I've done stuff for free for organizations just to get experience, and then once I learn it and once I get good at it, then I can say that I'm an expert, you know? That's when I know the ins and outs of it. And then you realize that you're more advanced than the audience that you're trying to reach as well. For example, if your audience is small businesses and they have nothing to do with marketing and I'm a marketing person, if I've worked with an organization for about six months or a year where I help them with their marketing and then help them drive traffic or revenue, then I'm an expert to the small business. Amy: Oh, I love that. So you see expertise on a continuum, and so long as you're ahead of the person you're talking to, you're an expert.Chris: Yeah, yeah. And then also experience though. [both laugh] So I'm not saying read an article and then you're an expert, but [laughs]--Amy: Right, actually knowing how to do it. No, I think that's brilliant. So have you struggled with impostor syndrome yourself?Chris: Yeah, I think so. I mean, sometimes--I'm trying to remember what impostor syndrome is. It's "not good enough," right?Amy: Yeah. It's the feeling that, like, the more you know, the more you feel like you don't know, so you never quite feel like you've arrived, or you feel like--the way I've experienced it is I feel like people are going to find out that I'm just faking it. And so, you know, the way that manifests itself for me is I have, like, a wall full of certifications to prove to myself that I'm not just faking it, right? [laughs] So what does that look like for you?Chris: Oh, okay. Yeah, that does happen, you know? Like, I feel like, depending on your--I mean, for me it was more so like since I was younger I started doing some of that speaking stuff, like, younger, and then of course being a minority I kind of have to say--I feel like I have to say every single thing that I've done, you know, because if I don't they're gonna go, "Oh, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about," you know? [laughs] So yeah, it does feel that way sometimes. It does feel like that sometimes, but I start to remember that "Okay, I do have legitimate experience," and I start to look at what have been the testimonials? You know, what have been the reviews? After the event, I look at the reviews. That kind of helps me understand that "Okay, I feel like I am at that level that I'm at right now." But yeah, I feel like it's a constant struggle, especially when you're trying to move forward. So, like, when I first started, I was so used to doing, like, really small events that I thought "Okay, I can't do an event with more than 10 people, you know?" [laughs] Like, and then realizing, like, just trying stuff and realizing "It's okay." You gotta grow somehow, right?Amy: Yeah. No, I think that's great, and I like that, that, you know, you just keep growing and just keep taking the steps. I think that's so important. Do you feel like you have to clear a higher bar than others? You said that, you know, you feel like because you're black you have to, like, list everything you've ever done so that people understand that you're the real deal. Do you feel like that there's a bar and then there's a bar for you that's higher?Chris: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I definitely feel that way, 'cause you have to--'cause yeah, I look at it as... when people see, like, people like myself, since I'm black, you know, they don't really see this type of person in that position, you know? Like, you don't see that many minority speakers out there, or even just like I said, like, when it comes to marketing and tech companies. Since they don't see it that much, they probably automatically assume that you don't know what you're talking about, you know? [laughs] There's been times where I walk in to the presentation and people don't think I'm the presenter. You know, they probably don't think I'm the presenter, so I have to, like, really show up and meet all of the expectations, and I feel like I have to do a little bit more too. So I gotta kinda give 110%, you know, instead of just trying to give an 80% or 70%, you know, and getting by. And people can get by, you know, but if you're in a different category, I feel like you do have to put a little bit more effort in. And I think one challenge is that initial reaction too. Initially when people see you, then after they hear your content and everything like that, that's when they kind of understand "Okay, this person is an expert," but the challenge is the beforehand. You know? What matters is before, right? In order to get a client, you still have to present yourself effectively and show that you know what you're doing. So that's where the challenge is. Like, everybody can like you, but it's like you still have to get that client first, right? [laughs] So there's the bar, right? Yep.Amy: Yeah. No, I definitely--I can definitely see how that's true, and I think the more differences a person has relative to the larger group the higher that bar gets and the more hurdles you have to clear and the more you have to prove yourself, you know? And that can be exhausting. I was a woman in tech for 20 years, and, you know, I would have men much older than me--when I was younger at least--who would say, "Oh, you're a really good programmer for a girl." I was like, "Hm. You know what? I fixed your code." [laughs] But they didn't want to hear that, right? So yeah, I can see how that could be a life-long frustration. Now that I'm older, I think that it's not as bad for me personally, but, you know, I'll never outgrow being a woman, right? I still get that occasionally, right? And we'll never outgrow our race, and we'll never outgrow our ethnicity or, you know, coming from another country or having a disability. Like, these are things that, you know, are a struggle over and over and over, but, you know, I long for the day when we can just all be taken on our merits and given the same benefit of the doubt.Chris: Yeah, that's--hopefully one day, right?Amy: We're a long way. [both laugh] We'll see, we'll see. So I want to ask you, in the time that we have left, to finish two sentences for me. The first one is "I feel included when ________."Chris: All right. So... I feel included when I'm informed about new opportunities. Amy: Ooh, I like that. Okay, and "When I feel included, I _________."Chris: When I feel included, I work better with the group and I give back.Amy: I love it. And I think that's true with most people, right? Most of us, we want to know what's going on, we want to give back, but if we don't feel safe to be ourselves, we can't put ourselves out there like that.Chris: Yeah. You want to feel included, right?Amy: Absolutely, absolutely. Chris, thank you so much for your time today.Chris: Yeah, it was great. Thanks.Amy: Okay, thanks.Chris: It was awesome stuff.

Victoria: Hey everyone, it’s Sensei Victoria Whitfield here, your journey partner in business, welcoming you back to episode 89 of the Journeypreneur Podcast. This is your source for channeled holistic stress management techniques, guidance, inspiration and motivation to stay on your path to rapid financial ascension and massive impact as a conscious entrepreneur. The title of today’s podcast episode is Your Healing Power. I have someone special here, and she is going to share some of the nuggets of wisdom she has picked up along her journey - my sister goddess friend Amy Zhou! We connected through Russell Brunson's coaching program, and mama we are out there, you and I both, we're out there to serve in a very big way and heal the world. So, Amy, welcome to the podcast! Amy: Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction Victoria, Sensei Victoria! I am so so grateful to be here and chat with you. You know I'm going on the journey with Russell alongside you and so many of others, and this program has really been one of the reasons why I am able to believe and trust and have faith on this path of service. Because many times when we are starting to pursue something that is a little bit more for fulfilling in our lives, and I'm not putting down others who are doing the 9-5, but many of us become very wary of what's going to come up as we pursue our purpose in business. We have our first time doing a business venture, or maybe even the second or third time, because the first and the second hasn't worked. We are always wondering if it's going to work out, and we have to steer clear always of the fear of starting something new, again. Let's talk about it! - Are you blocking your next business breakthrough? Take the assessment at http://www.victoriawhitfield.com/quiz to find out, and apply for a Breakthrough Call with me!

Amy Cunningham is a progressive funeral director and the owner of Fitting Tribute Funeral Services in New York City. A former journalist, Amy co-authors a blog, The Inspired Funeral, with Kateyanne Unullisi. Full Transcript: Intro: This is Tanya Marsh and you’re listening to Death, et seq. The Fall semester just started at Wake Forest, so we’ve gone to episodes every other week for a little while, but the students in my Funeral and Cemetery Law class this semester will be helping me with some episodes, so you can look forward to some interesting topics. In the near future, you can look forward to an interview with Josh Slocum, the Executive Director of Funeral Consumers Alliance, and a conversation with my friend Tim Mossberger, the unofficial archivist of The Avett Brothers, about their music and mortality. But today’s episode is an interview with my friend Amy Cunningham, who is a progressive funeral director in Brooklyn, New York. Amy went to mortuary school in her 50s and embarked on this second career with an incredible amount of energy and empathy. She is the owner of Fitting Tribute Funeral Services and she is one of my favorite people. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Tanya Marsh: I am sitting with Amy Cunningham today in Brooklyn. Thank you, Amy so much for joining me on Death, et seq. Amy Cunningham: Hi Tanya. I’m very excited to be here. Tanya: Amy, I think of you as a non-traditional funeral director for a couple of reasons. You don't come from a funeral family. This is your second career. And you actively promote home funerals, green burials, and a number of other of “non-traditional” processes, rituals, and methods of disposition. And you do all of this in a state, New York, whose licensing makes it particularly difficult to be a non-traditional funeral director because of the licensing requirements. So can you just share your story and what motivated you to become a funeral director? Amy: Sure, it started with my father's death in South Carolina in the care of hospice and you know down there it's obvious to people in the small towns who to call when they need a funeral director—they know the funeral director from the Chamber of Commerce, from Rotary. So when my dad died we gave him a magnificent music-infused funeral service in the Presbyterian Church. I was amazed by the sweetness of the funeral director down there. I came back to Brooklyn. I was then a journalist writing about Buddhism meditations, spirituality, the new spiritual marketplace in the United States, how families were into marrying and mixing faith within their family system. I came back to Brooklyn after Dad's funeral and said to my husband, “gosh I admired that funeral director so much. I wonder what it would be like to be a funeral director. I wonder how you go about doing that.” That was in 2009, and six months later I was enrolled in mortuary school here in New York. It was a very rigorous demanding year and far more embalming and chemistry and science education than I ever anticipated. I'm not bitter about that now, but I was then. I got through all that and then took six months to, at the age of 54, not many funeral homes are eager to hire a mother of two who's had a career in journalism that doesn't seem applicable to the funeral biz. So it took a while to get a residency. But I did land a good one with a marvelous man who trained me and then I stayed there for three years and was always consistently interested in meeting the needs of families with a lot going on in terms of their faith constellation. The average family I meet with in Brooklyn these days—someone's a lapsed Catholic, someone's Jewish, someone's going to Buddhist retreats and practicing yoga. And they're trying to figure out how to arrange a funeral for a grandmother who had no faith at all, but then became a Mormon in the nursing home where she fell in love with the chaplain who was a Mormon and people come to me in that state. And when I sit with the family like that I feel I'm really in my sweet spot that I can truly help validate them and show them that they are not atypical that this is really the way we are right now in the United States. We can build a good ceremony. Tanya: I like that phrase “faith constellation” because that kind of pushes back on the notion—a notion about America in general, but maybe Brooklyn in particular, that we are increasingly unchurched and without faith. But that's suggesting that you actually have this sort of diversity and these mixed families of different ritual backgrounds, different faith backgrounds and so trying to find the middle ground or factors that are common to all of them, something that's meaningful. Amy: And yes there's a core of spirituality there and there may even be prayers or poetry that is loved within that family. So it's finding the right mix of language and music and the flowers and the right casket for that kind of group. They've got a lot going on so they want to keep it simple. And they're terrified about being ripped off or paying too much and too many people come in quite uninformed so to guide that kind of family through an experience that that then leaves them in an exalted, uplifted place is very meaningful work and I love it. Tanya: So what would you say your goal is as a funeral director with respect to families and the funerals that you're trying to accomplish. Amy: While I do a lot of alternative services, home funerals, green burials, witnessed cremations, I start out a bit simpler than that. I just want to give them a kind of ritual, a separation ritual that will be meaningful to them and that will endorse or include the values of the deceased and also send them out of the cemetery or out of the crematory that day off to their luncheon or whatever meal they're going to have after the service send them off in a place where they feel that that deceased person was loved, honored take good care of, and that we really did as a group the best job we possibly could. Tanya: Do you tend to deal with people more on a preneed basis? Do you have a lot of people come to you in advance to arrange their own funerals, or do you find that you're dealing more with families after the fact, or is it a mixture. Amy: Increasingly, as I get better now I've been very fortunate to have some good press, people are coming to me in advance. But I would say more frequently they're calling me the night of or two days prior to the death and the care of hospice occurring. A lot of my folks are dying in the care of hospice. I'm making inroads through hospice and getting known to hospice workers as someone who will take not only take great care of the deceased person but manage that complex family constellation. Tanya: And so mostly you're serving people in Brooklyn? Amy: Brooklyn and Manhattan, and Queens recently. Tanya: And then where are their families located? Are the families predominantly local. Or is an aspect of it that … I mean is part of the reason that people are calling you sort of at the last minute because the families coming in from out of town and nobody has made any arrangements. Amy: Some of that. I'm calling people who are in hospital corridors. But the cell phone will say they live in Portland or Cincinnati or Florida. So a lot of kids with parents dying here in New York because that's got that's got to be a challenge. Tanya: If you're not from a funeral family, you're not inheriting a funeral home or buying into an existing funeral home that has a book of business. Amy: Right. Tanya: Because most funeral consumers, the studies show, don't shop around. And there's an incredible reliance on using the funeral home that you've gone to funerals at before, to stick with a funeral director or a funeral home for multiple generations. So what are some ways just from a marketing perspective, getting started as a new business owner that you've tried to use to combat some of that. Amy: I used my background in journalism to develop some PowerPoint presentations that are purely educational or are not sales pitches. I just show people what a cremation is. What is cremation history. What did cremations look like in ancient Rome. And I started delivering those presentations at the Park Slope Food Co-op. Now we have 15,000 members in an alternative grocery store here in Brooklyn. And then my little show kind of took off and went on the road and Greenwood Cemetery now has me giving those kinds of workshops monthly and that's been great for all of Brooklyn. If someone asks me for a business card I may give it to them but it's not about spreading the word of my company, it's more about just giving them the facts because I think all funeral directors need to see themselves as educators. Death is a rather complicated today and there are a lot of important decisions to make involving thousands of dollars. And families will really feel cared for when they feel like they've been educated not just sold a bunch of goods. Tanya: Is it that younger people? Older people? Amy: It's neat. A lot of older people sometimes maybe couples in their 50s, 60s, 70s saying to each other “we really got to get going on this. We want to spare our children the struggle of putting a funeral together for us.” But then also I'm seeing people in their 20s and 30s are interested in funeral planning but also looking at careers in the end of life sphere. And I love these kids. I'm really impressed with the young people I'm meeting. I tell older people are in good hands because these are the people who are going to be taking care of us. And I think the book has not yet been written on how 9/11 influenced a whole generation of people. and deaths awareness and Caitlin Doughty’s books and all the great articles that have been running in The New York Times about getting ready for death and how to face it with dignity and courage. All of that is feeding a culture of young people who really want to get involved and help do death differently. In whatever way that means. And we used to say … I lead a Death Cafe at the cemetery now and it used to be said that death was the last thing any family wanted to discuss. And it was a forbidden topic. I don't find that to be true anymore. I think podcasts like yours, everything that's going on, has made death much more interesting to folks and a great topic to contemplate daily, just as the Buddhists advocate that life is improved through death and contemplation and then awareness. Tanya: The rural cemetery movement of which Greenwood was a part of, Mount Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge Massachusetts as a part, were designed in part to give lessons to the living. They were designed as places of contemplation. I mean that was a thing that was part of our culture not that long ago a century, a century ago, and that we've really lost connection with. That acknowledging death and its inevitability and trying to think about how we want to deal with it both for ourselves and for the people that we care about doesn't have to be a scary icky saying it's actually an affirming thing right. Amy: Right. I may be a funeral director because I spent two weeks every summer of my girlhood in Texas and my grandparents used to take me to church every Sunday. And then after church we would drive to the cemetery. It wasn't even a topic of conversation. We would just go pull weeds up look at the stones and say, oh you know, there's Aunt Mildred. And then just go out to lunch. Nothing was really spoken, that was just a ritual that we had. Tanya: I mean I used to go to Nebraska in the summer of visit my grandparents and my grandmother and I in particular we used to go around to all the cemeteries in the county and she'd point out to me who all our people were. We'd pull grass. We were just in Nebraska about three weeks ago and cleaned up some grass around some of the tombstones, and I think I put on Facebook that were visiting my grandmother. Amy: It’s a lovely thing. Tanya: It's a connection. It's a connection through the generations and your relationships with people don't end at death. So Amy, you've talked about people coming from a whole diversity of backgrounds and positions of faith or ways of looking at the world and what some of the common factors in a good funeral might be. So have you thought about what makes a good funeral regardless of your background? Amy: I think even folks who are secular do well to study the structure of a religious funeral, because there are keys to the high notes and the important moments there. Even the terminology and the names of things are wonderful to study. I was just looking up the “death knell.” They used to ring bells when deaths occurred. There used to be callers out on the street, centuries ago, who would notify the community of the death. Today we have Facebook. We toll the bell in a completely different way, but a good funeral involves acknowledgement of the death, an announcement, an obituary, something like that. Tanya: An acknowledgement to the community and by the community. Amy: Right. And then kind of separating process. You know not all deaths occur in the presence of family. But when that death has occurred in the hospital room and family members are standing there weeping…we need to figure out how to, if there's not going to be a home funeral, preferably, it's wonderful to advise the family, if you get them early enough and can educate them, to spend some time with that deceased person and alert them to the fact that it is perfectly legal to keep that deceased person in a hospital room for three or four hours, or if death has occurred in a home in the care of hospice, that person doesn't need to be whisked away. We shouldn't be afraid of the body that we can actually sit there, cry, tell stories … hold the hand of the deceased, comb the deceased’s hair, maybe dress them, wrap them in a shroud. There's things that we can do at these moments that are very beautiful. So a good funeral I feel involves some involvement with the body. That doesn't mean if it's not your tradition, or not your inclination to be with a deceased person's physical body, you can sit in a quiet chapel at the crematory or at the funeral home in the presence of the body in a closed casket, you're still with the body, the body is still there. So I help people who are intimidated by too big an old fashioned deathbed experience to at least maybe sit in the funeral firm for a moment and have something like a visitation. So the announcement, the body, and then some kind of acknowledgement of the meaningfulness of that deceased person's life through a eulogy, through could be a written statement, something often in the context of a service, I think is great. And just feeling like you said to that person everything you had to say and that if you loved them, you said that in the presence of their body even when life is no longer going on within it. And then I think there should be something having to do with friends and a meal or you know these are the the bits, and I divide it up and look at it. And every family does part of it differently and some families try to forego a lot of it, but if they can just have one piece of it, then I feel like they have something they can talk about later and share with their friends that we did the best we could. We gave mom a good send off … we looked through photo albums. There's just there's a lot to it. And the days that unfold after death in the family… we call it a liminal time and space. Sometimes I call it sacred. If someone is secular and they don't like that word it's a special time. It's not every day you have a death in the family. So do whatever you can carefully try to seal yourself away from work and find activities that that will help you honor that person. It could be as a small ritual as if your grandfather washed his car every Saturday, you could start washing your car every Saturday. Some kind of little funny thing that brings that life back to you. You could change your Facebook password to have that person's name in it. Little teeny salutes to the value of that person's existence. I think make for a pretty good funeral. Tanya: We’ve also talked about that you think the start of a good funeral is with the transfer process and there are improvements that the industry more generally could make to the transfer process. Amy: Tanya, if I could make one change in the funeral business, if I could just help the industry see that that transfer from the place of death is the beginning of the funeral. This is where the healing will begin. To train the people who are coming into hospital, walking down the corridor with the rolling funeral home stretcher or cot and orchestrating a transfer from that bed where the deceased person died in and taking … it's a changing of the guard. It's taking a deceased person out of the hospital or the home and into the funeral home and doing that with grace and art and respect. And so many families come to me and say “oh my god my mother died and these guys came and they asked us to leave the room and then we heard the zipping of this bag and then they left as if they didn't want to talk to us anymore. And that was that. And we felt there was a tremendous rupture and sadness and that's when we began to grieve.” That's an unfortunate moment. So I like to go to hospitals with flowers in my arms. I greet the family. I speak to the deceased person by name. And everybody seems to feel good about that … that they know they're giving me permission to transfer that deceased person and take them into my care. But on a slower schedule, at a pace that they can tolerate, and including them and asking them to put music on a cellphone so that when we walk out the door and down the hospital corridor there's some kind of ballad in the background that articulates something about their love for that person. I have a very pretty cot cover. Nothing's ugly. I put flowers in the arms of the deceased so often. There might be flowers on the window sill that have been languishing there through the whole prolonged end of life period. So I take those flowers and I put them in the deceased’s hands and we cover with a pretty cot cover and we only cover the face when the family has told us it's OK to cover the face. So it's a moment and it's a … I make it a thing. I've tried to bring pageantry and a kind of ecstasy back into the whole period and make people feel like home. Okay, now we can go home we can bathe we can be ourselves for a while and let's get ready for the next phase of this thing. Tanya: I think it's so interesting because I've had a lot of conversations so far with people talking about the diminishment of the ritual as in the funeral. But you're talking about imbuing this whole period right after death with ritual that I think we have not had more broadly speaking right. And you're right. I mean the death of a person is such an abrupt transformation. Psychologists and sociologists have talked about, how at least in Western culture, we view human remains as unclean and that part of the funeral ritual like embalming and dressing and putting makeup on is and making a person look more alive is a way of socially transforming this unclean thing into a clean thing because it appears to be alive. Which is I think sort of, more traditionally for the past century, the way that we've all kind of viewed this and so if you look at it through that lens, yeah, take the unclean thing away immediately and then make it presentable again to be given to the living but you're sort of rejecting that idea. And I don't think you're alone in that. I mean I think there are a number of people who are rejecting that idea and saying that it is in fact that abrupt transformation or wrenching away the body that is unhealthy right to processing grief and saying goodbye. Amy: I think of it energetically and I feel like there's still even after a death has occurred a life energy in the room. So I happen to feel, at least it's very helpful to me. I don't know if a soul exists. It's very helpful to me as a funeral director to believe that one does because I comport myself as if the soul is watching me at all times. And it's a mindfulness practice. You have to feel that that deceased person has their eyes on you and that's a lovely relationship. It's not scary. It's a great thing. I talk to deceased people. I that kind of energy in the room. And I think people respond very positively to that. My funeral families seem to like me for that reason. None of us know. But it’s a good idea to just trust. Tanya: So I I've been asking this question of a lot of people and plan to continue to do and to do so and I think your answer just sort of showed your hand on how you might answer it. But do you think that funerals are for the dead or for the living. In other words, should we be respecting the wishes of the deceased with respect to their own funerals. Or should we be focusing more on what those that they've left behind want out of the whole process. Amy: This is the great mystic question. Actually, it was discussed in the first week mortuary school. And I think the technical answer is that it is for the living. Tanya: What do you mean the technical answer, you mean the answer that funeral school… Amy: Yeah, that you're wanting to engage that family in in a meaningful experience and that they are paying for a meaningful experience. But the wishes of the deceased certainly have to come in there. If grandma was a strict Roman Catholic, many families come to me saying we don't go to Mass anymore but grandma would want us to do this. This is what we're doing. Or they might adapt it a little bit, change it slightly. But I do think sometimes the wishes of the deceased can be disobeyed. And this is my example of that. It's not what you think. A friend of mine's mother said “I will haunt you,” as she was dying, “if you give me any kind of funeral. I don't want any funeral.” And they didn't have a funeral. And months later my friend was saying you know that was like Mom's final deprivation. We should have done something. So I think sometimes dying people may insist they don't want much but I think we can give them more than they ask for. Tanya: Well I think it's interesting especially since you mentioned that in the first week of funeral school that this was something you talked about, because the position of the law, and this has been true since Roman times, is that it's the decedent's wishes that matter. Right now part of this I think in the Anglo-American system had to do with the established Church of England and Christian doctrine about you need to be buried in consecrated ground. You needed to have, you know, the priest or the minister preside over your funeral if you were going to be resurrected eventually. So it was so important for the deceased that there remains be treated in the correct way and their eternal salvation rested upon that. That it was like a social contract. I'll take care of you, if you take care of me. And it was sort of an assumed baseline of what the decedents were going to want. Amy: It’s fascinating. Tanya: So the attitude of the funeral industry is so opposite to the tradition of the law that that's just it's really fascinating to me when you have these kind of incredible tensions and disconnect between two different institutions that are both sort of longstanding. No wonder people are confused, right? Amy: And that makes the appointment of agent to control the disposition of remains that are very important for people who whose wishes run contrary to the wishes of their families and that they want to make sure that they're protected. Tanya: Well and you know a practical problem that I've heard a lot of funeral directors say is that especially if a person died and they didn't have a spouse or their spouse predecease them and they have children where they have you know some other category of people who get to make a decision and that there's disagreement within the category. Divorced parents making a decision for a deceased child or children making a decision on behalf of a parent that you can have real practical problems and try and sort it all out. And that's the deceased left behind instructions then that's going to be a lot easier for everybody. Amy: Exactly. Tanya: So what kind of conversations do you have with people on a preneed or an at-need basis in terms of what kind of goods and services that they're looking for from you. In other words, why are families or soon to be decedents coming to you and so some other funeral establishment. Amy: Well one thing that I offer, and I'm very clear about on my website, is that I make every effort to make the funeral eco-friendly. So my customers tend to come to me because they know I'm going to offer them a simple casket and they also are not interested in embalming. My customer almost uniformly … I think maybe I might have one or two embalmings a year. And I don't mean to upset embalmers or be anti-embalming. It's just interesting to note that my customer is wary of embalming and not desiring that. So they may even ask about it, “You're not going to embalm.” And I say as you know, that's what I say on my website, I make every every effort not to embalm. I partner, I have my registration at a Jewish firm and it has a very large refrigerated space. So all our deceased people live back there, they are kept cool and can last a long time without any chemical intervention. That's … I've found that there are enough New Yorkers who find that important that they come to me and trust me. Tanya: And so a lot of people are coming to because of environmental considerations. Amy: Yes. Tanya: And so you have observed that their objection to embalming is part and parcel of their environmental considerations? Or is there something else going on with their objection to embalming? Amy: That’s a great question. I think they want as little intervention as possible. And here's the key word—they want an authentic experience. They want authenticity the whole way. Tanya: And they're viewing embalming as antithetical to authenticity. Amy: Yes. And I feel that there's a new generation of funeral customer who wants to see what death looks like. I recently had a family that even said “don't even close Dad's mouth.” A lot of funeral directors would find that outrageous, that of course you're going to close the deceased’s mouth for them. But this family said he looks fine. And they want things as natural as possible. And they're sometimes very amenable to viewing with very minimal care. They say goodbye at the hospital. They may take a glance or sit with the open casket for a time and they don't feel that chemicals are useful to them. And this is a customer that wants to watch money. But I also feel like they might be shopping at Whole Foods where they may be paying a bit extra for an organic apple just because it's organic. Tanya: Right. So interest in driving down the price of the funeral is not something that you've observed is a primary consideration. Amy: I tell that to other funeral directors as the good news of this thing because this customer wants it real and is willing to pay for that. Tanya: So what does a home funeral look like in New York City? Because it's always seemed to me that the urban areas were some of the first places where funeral homes became popular and widespread because people simply didn't have enough space in their own parlors. They had to go to a funeral parlor. And you still have some of the space considerations and people don't have cars. I mean you have a lot of sort of practical constraints in a city like this that you don't have in many other places that would that would seem to complicate a home funeral. So are you looking at home funerals and for the folks that come to you, it's like a whole range of different options? Amy: Sometimes a home funeral in New York is a delayed transfer or pickup. I'll get a call from a family they'll say “we've just called hospice. Mom is dead. We'd like four hours.” And I say “great you know let's set a time. Let's send text messages to each other. You tell me when you're ready and we’ll come over.” That's a mini home funeral. You don't need any dry ice for that. Sometimes it's an overnight. We've done quite a few of those. Sometimes it's a longer, more prolonged ritual. I had a Tibetan case where we kept a deceased gentleman in an apartment in Bushwick Brooklyn for almost three days. Tanya: You used dry ice? Amy: I left dry ice there but that particular gentleman was an advanced tantric practitioner. He visited with the Dalai Lama before his death. That gentleman was almost incorruptible. He was magnificent and knew how to die. And if ice was used, it was very little. Quite fascinating. But that was a great experience. But there have been other times where we brought deceased individuals into a brownstone in Brooklyn and laid them out in the parlor in the old fashioned way and then taken them back to the funeral home in the casket that night. So you're right, we have smaller living spaces, I think where the family centered funeral is really inhibited in New York and only at the point of families ever using their own cars or carrying someone out onto West 57th Street. That's not gonna happen anytime soon. I've had conversations with Josh Slocum about this. Much can be overcome that the city does pose some obstacles. Tanya: You mean just the practical realities of living in the city. Amy: I envy the Texans who can put granddad's casket in a pickup truck and take to the cemetery themselves. That's a tall order here in New York. We still have and that's why part of my business is rather conventional. I still use hearses and sometimes limousines. We have old fashioned cortège going to the cemetery and cars in sequence and all the old trapping, but New Yorkers still gravitate to that and want a little bit of pomp and circumstance. Tanya: So you mentioned witnessed cremations a couple of times. And I think that's really interesting to talk about. Because I've been to … Fresh Pond Crematory and toured that and that's a fascinating historical place that is really set up to and oriented to witnessed cremations for people from a whole bunch of different faith perspectives. I mean I think they've made a real effort to be to be inclusive in that way. But not every state has witnessed cremations or makes it very easy to have a witnessed cremation. So what do you think is valuable for families if anything about experiencing a witness cremation? Amy: Witnessed cremation has gone up a lot in my practice in the last two years. I think some people want to accompany their loved one the whole way as far as they can almost as if it's to the edge of a kind of grave they want of an experience. It's not that … I am careful with my language … it's not that they want it but they find benefit in the witness. What is a witness—it means that after the chapel service at the crematory or a funeral home, you can go to the area of the cremation plant or facility and witness the casket entering the cremation chamber or retort. The door is opened. Generally at Green-Wood the casket is on a lift, a hydraulic lift, it lifts up to the height of the retort and then the men gently guide that vessel into the chamber … Tanya: I've been I've been to the crematory at Green-Wood as well, and so the family is standing in a separate room, right? And so there's curtains… Amy: They’ve redesigned it. We’re going into the retort room now because it's so beautifully styled and designed. It's so beautiful back there. The metal of the doors is a kind of bronze and they're symbols of the world of antiquity back there that are very touching and moving. When that chamber opens you see a sort of arch of brick on the top of it and the glow of the embers. You don't see flames but if the family opts for this they can push a button on the wall that then lowers very slowly the door of the retort. It has a kind of magnificence to it. And certainly a finality. I don't use the word closure because there is no such thing as closure. You're going to carry this loss with you for the rest of your life. But it does make people feel like wow I took it as far as I could. I was with her every step of the way. And I was sort of available for every emotional aspect of this experience. People's knees buckle a little bit but they walk out of the room saying “Wow I've never seen anything like that before. Thank you.” Tanya: So that really challenges the notion that people are opting for cremation primarily because of cost. I mean because it was I guess it all has to do with the ritual that surrounds it because the pushing the button and the witnessing seems very similar to a graveside service where you're where you're putting a handful of dirt on the casket. Amy: Yeah. People want to do things even in a time of grief. And when I think of my male compatriots and my teachers in the industry who I love. I notice that in their lovely masculine way they've been depriving people of experiences because they feel that those experiences aren't good for them. And they say we will take it off your hands. We will do it for you. We are here for you. And it's very nice. And some families like that but increasingly families are saying “no we want to do that. We want to be there. You don't have to take it off our hands. We want to pay you to allow us to be there and be fully present.” Tanya: That we're going to get more value as a family from involving ourselves in the process. Amy: I recently had a group of people, a family, seated in the home with the deceased person present. They had on their own after death lit candles, put rose petals around her body, bathed her, brushed her hair, and then they were ready for me to come. I ended up coming with my own two man stretcher which is like a fireman's pallet. And I didn't call the man at the firm that I used to help me with these transfers. I went by myself and we were on the upstairs level of a two-story townhome and I said to the people assembled: “Listen, I thought about you guys, I knew that you have dressed her and cared for her and been here all this time. I thought that you might want to help me carry her out down the stairs.” Not every funeral director would be comfortable with this because there are liabilities, what if somebody stumbles. What if… it's always gone well for me, I don't know how to explain it any better, because it's like this family would have paid more to have the experience of carrying their loved one out of the house. That's an extreme example. But when we got to the bottom of the stairs we put this lovely woman, we covered her respectfully in gorgeous fabric. We put her in the back of my car. I closed the door. I turned to them and the gratitude was amazing to observe. These are very small ways that we can include families and continuing to love the person that they are now missing and help them in their adjustment to the new reality. Tanya: Let me ask you a final question for you but before we get to that this is sort of a mundane question. A lot of the things that you described doing do not fit with the general price list. Amy: Yes. Tanya: So how do you try to forge this new set of services? The gorgeous fabric, the involving the family, and transporting the body, the transfer process. A lot of these things that you're talking about—you did a direct burial not too long ago and there is a play list that you played. These are all services and incredibly important touches. But I'm just wondering how you reconcile that with a very formalized set of requirements imposed by the Funeral Rule. And then also sort of the established norms of how this industry works. Amy: I recently found myself standing in a Bed Bath and Beyond looking for some kind of piece of fabric or throw to put over a casket in the deceased person's favorite shade of robin's egg blue. And I stood there asking myself “how do I get this onto the Price List?” The GPL is not working for me. In time all I can imagine is perhaps getting so well-known for this kind of lovely series of gestures that I could raise my non-negotiable…my arrangements fee. It doesn't fit anywhere else doesn't it well. I mean there's no hourly wage, there's no funeral preparation hourly fee or something like that. I'm not able to monetize it yet. All I'm doing is building my brand and getting the word out that I'm available to you to do these kinds of things right. Tanya: Right. Because I mean the GPL is set up for … even though you still have this non-declinable fee for covering a lot of your profit and, you know, your services in the cost of goods. But if you're not doing an embalming that's out the door. Amy: The caskets aren’t expensive and they’re not marked up. Tanya: So that's a real challenge for people who are sort of pursuing a nontraditional kind of a path. That is much more service oriented. But the question is how do you accurately communicate the cost of those services to families. And right now there's transparency and fairness and that you're getting fully compensated for your time and expertise right and that they know what they're getting themselves into. That's the challenge. Amy: The guys at the funeral home watch me arrange rose petals in the interior of the casket where the deceased is never going to be viewed. They say, “Amy, just close the casket.” Well I want to finesse the shroud a little better. Yeah, I don't know. I mean I don't think I'll ever have any feeling of … I have to learn to protect myself, I guess. But I would love to sit down with others in the industry and figure out how we can offer these kinds of things and really save the funeral industry in so many words because it's not working the way it's set up right now. Tanya: So my final question is what sort of advice do you have for people who are considering following a path like you have. What have you learned? What would you do differently? Do you think that this is a path that others should follow? Amy: I think there are so many opportunities for thoughtful people in this business. And it's such fulfilling work. I would never discourage anyone from getting into it. However there are so many impediments and barriers to entry and hoops to jump through. My husband used to watch me studying late into the night in mortuary school and he'd say “honey this is like a hazing. I can't believe this. You know you want to just do good funeral services why are you having to memorize every bone in the foot.” So one thing I do say is that you really have to want to get into it, if you're in any way unsure then maybe it's not for you. It tends to be a business that is so hard to enter that you really have to want it more than anything else and almost see that there's no other path for you. If that requirement is satisfied then go on, get through the school that will maybe be one of the worst years of your life. But it's only a year you'll get through it. You'll be proud of yourself. Your family will be proud of you. And then try to negotiate the best residency you possibly can in those states that insist upon that yeah. And the embalming requirements are really tough and each state is different. So I was advised to just show my boss what I was good at. And I think he acknowledged after about four months of having me back there in what is known as the pit that really wasn't my gift. So I got through that part with all the legal requirements for residency and licensing in the state of New York and it's good to know a bit about embalming but I don't want to say it's going to be obsolete. There's always going to be a call for it but I don't know that the emphasis in the in the mortuary schools needs to be so focused on it. Tanya: Well there's definitely been some studies have indicated that the number of women who are interested in becoming funeral directors is artificially depressed by the embalming curriculum. Large numbers of women have said that they would be much because they're more interested in the I guess you call “front of the house.” Amy: Right. The suits, yes. The people who want to sell the funerals. Tanya: Well or just be involved in the experiences and helping people have a meaningful experience and funeral but they're not interested in the embalming side of it. And so coupling those two different professions into one. And the requirements to become both into one has cut down on a lot of people who would probably be pretty funeral directors Amy: Yeah, yeah. I am finding that the men in the industry I'm around are very moved by what I do and don't criticize me or make fun of me in any way at this point because they see that this is sort of why they got into the business themselves in the first place. I help remind people of the gorgeous nature of this work. And I think we all need each other and can work together and make for a new way for families to say goodbye. Tanya: Well I think that you are an absolutely inspiring funeral director and you're so positive. And that we could all learn a lot from the experience that you have and what you're trying to bring to families. Amy: Thank you thank you so much. You know by the way I have a blog that I write with Kateyanne Unullisi, a Seattle funeral celebrant, called The Inspired Funeral. And a lot of these ideas are on there. We divide the whole end of life period into nine different moments and we have readings for each of those moments and a lot of good material. Tanya: I'll put that in the show notes. Amy: My life as a journalist continues. Tanya: Awesome. Thank you so much Amy. Amy: Thank you.

In this episode, we discuss the topic of allyship and sit down with Author, Public Speaker, Educator, and CEO of Lead at Any Level, Amy C. Waninger to discuss what allyship looks like practically in the workplace.Length: 45:09Hosts: Zach | Ade#LeadatAnyLevel #Favethings #PatreonOur Patreon (and other links): https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateAmy C. Waninger's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amycwaninger/Buy Amy's book here: https://amzn.to/2ztwZaUTRANSCRIPTAde: “First, I must confess that over the past few years I’ve been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Klu Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.” This excerpt from Martin Luther King’s letter from a Birmingham jail highlights a point in his movement where he was particularly frustrated, and as he wrote here, his frustration was not with those who were very clearly against him but were with those who were, in his words, lukewarm to his cause of social equity. From my perspective, I realize that I probably will constantly face opposition. My real question is “What does true support look like?” This is Ade, and you’re listening to Living Corporate. Zach: Whoo, that was a heavy quote. Ade: Yeah. It’s--I mean, it’s kind of weird that so far we haven’t quoted Martin Luther King, Jr., I think. But, you know, whatever. Considering our show. Zach: Fair enough. So today we’re talking about effective allyship in Corporate America, and honestly I’m really excited we’re discussing this today. When you talk about Living Corporate and the fact that we’re trying to highlight the views of under-represented people in Corporate America, a lot of that has to do with how we partner and get partnership from people that don’t look like us. Ade: Right. And honestly, just the world and the context in which we’re living, it’s so weird. Like, it’s, you know, simultaneously more diverse than ever, and more voices are popping up and, you know, demanding to be heard, but at the same time there is this relentless push back, and it feels like the more voices pop up, the more there’s this, like, push to maintain the status quo, just whatever against the idea of recognizing the truth and reality of all of these different experiences. Zach: Oh, you’re absolutely right. I mean, honestly, when you talk about, like, the reality of different experiences at work, right? So at all of the different places I’ve been, every job I’ve had so far had some type of ERG or employee resource group or affinity group or whatever you want to call them, but that’s kind of where they just group people by their identities, right? Or by how they believe people identify themselves primarily, and 99% of the time--I’ll say it this way. I can count on one hand how many discussions I’ve had at work around race that weren’t like, “Oh, you’re black? Well, yeah. We have, like, this black stuff over here.” Like, “You can just go over there with all the other black people, and y’all can be black - together.” Ade: Okay, so I’m curious. Ever, over the course of your professional career, just an instance really of someone being in your corner--someone obviously being someone who did not have a marginalized identity within that context, someone who really practiced effective allyship, who had your back in tense situations. Zach: That’s a really good question. You know what? I think so. So one time I was at work, right? And every time I would be in these meetings, like for a particular project, I would get ignored. Like, I would speak up, and I’d say something. I’d give a point, I’d ask a question. I’d say something, and it would get ignored. But then the people on my project, my colleagues, they would then say what I just said, and then they would get applauded, right? Yes, and it happened all the time. Ade: Ugh. Been there. Zach: So finally this white knight--and no pun intended considering the quote that we gave at the top of the show, it was actually a good thing--this paragon of parity, this champion, he approached the project manager at the end of one of these meetings and in a hushed but direct tone said, “Hey, the way you’re treating Zach seems odd.” Ade: Uh… is that it? Zach: Yeah, that’s it. Ade: Okay. So, um, that sounds nice, and to be real, like, I am not necessarily expecting, you know, knights to come up and, you know, duel people to the death for our honor or throw on their capes and leap from one building of oppression to the next to try to save us all. I just--I feel like it’s hard enough being, like we’ve said multiple times on this show, one of the onlys in a work environment. It’s hard enough when you feel like you’re just at it by yourself. Sometimes, all it really does take is that one quiet conversation to feel like you’re not alone, and I really want to focus on the concept of people who are dedicated, not just, you know, having the idea of allyship but dedicated to using their privilege and their space and their social capital and their power in ways that benefit the people around them who lack that same social capital, and, you know, sometimes a little bit of the coded language, a little bit of the flexing of social capital muscle, goes a really, really long way. Zach: I mean, it would be great if we could speak to someone, perhaps someone who is not an ethnic minority. Someone who maybe they wrote a book about unconscious bias and diversity and inclusion in the workplace? Someone who’s had many public speaking engagements and who’s the CEO of a firm that promotes in the trenches leadership, diversity and inclusion and career management through mentoring, public speaking engagements and other offerings? Ade: Are you talking about our guest, Amy C. Waninger? Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaat? Zach: [imitating air horns] Sound Man, come on, you know what it is. Give me [inaudible]. [Sound Man complies] Ade: Ugly. Ugly. Ugly. Zach: We’re gonna get into our interview with our guest, Amy C. Waninger. Zach: And we’re back, and we said before, we have Amy C. Waninger here with us on the show today. Amy, thank you for joining us today. Amy: Thank you for having me, Zach. I’m excited to be here. Zach: Absolutely, excited to have you here. Would you mind--for those of us who don’t know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself? Amy: Absolutely. I started my career in 1999 as a software developer and, you know, kind of went through all of the bubbles and bursts in the early 2000s in IT. For about the last 10 to 12 years I’ve been in the management space, so progressive management roles in and around information technology, and in the last 10 years I’ve focused on the insurance industry. I recently started my own company, Lead At Any Level, LLC, and through Lead At Any Level I do authorship of, you know, a blog. I have a book out, as you know, and public speaking engagements, training sessions, coaching, individually consulting around career management, diversity and inclusion, and leadership skills. Zach: You have written a book called Network Beyond Bias. Can you explain the title? Amy: Okay, sure. So that--it’s kind of a long story, but I’ll try to make it as quick as I can here. So the word Beyond was really important to me. I did a--I went through a process with a woman named Erin Weed. She has a company called Evoso, and she does this process that she calls a dig, and she helps you get to a word that is powerful for you. It’s this very structured, important, detailed process around how you get to this word, and the word that I chose for myself at the end of this was the word “beyond” because beyond has a lot of power for me, you know? The idea that wherever you are today, you can get beyond. Whatever horizon you can see, you can go beyond it, and so the title comes from the need to network with diverse populations and with people, you know, with all different perspectives, and I don’t believe that we can undo our biases necessarily, and we shouldn’t ignore them. We need to accept that they’re there and then move beyond them, and the subtitle, Making Diversity A Competitive Advantage For Your Career, came from what I saw as a gap in the diversity and inclusion consulting space and even in the writing about diversity and inclusion in the corporate world that we tend to target organizations or senior leaders in that conversation and not engage people at the everyday level. You know, just everyday individual contributors that are maybe trying to move ahead in their careers, and that was important to me for a couple of reasons. Number one, I think people who--by the time they’re in the C-Suite or they’ve got the VP titles or, you know, they’re pretty high up in these large companies, I think they’re very entrenched and engaged in the way things are and not necessarily looking to change because they know how to play the game as it exists today. And, you know, for people who are struggling to get into that in-group that can be really challenging, so I wanted to focus on people who maybe haven’t made it as far as they want to go yet and want to get there but get there in a very inclusive way, and so how can individuals engage in the diversity and inclusion conversation in a way that feels authentic for them? And there’s some element of--I don’t know how to explain it. There’s some element of just because it’s the right thing to do, right? Not altruism, but doing the right thing, but also in a way that helps them move forward in their own careers, because I really feel like if we can engage tomorrow’s leaders today--and I kind of wrap up the book with this--if we can engage tomorrow’s leaders today in being more inclusive and kind of changing the way we network and changing the way these conversations happen for our careers, we can make lasting changes that will get us to, you know, get more diverse representation in the C-Suite. Zach: You know what? It’s interesting that that’s your answer because it leads me into my next question, which is actually--I’m gonna lead in by reading an excerpt from your book, okay? So I’ma read this excerpt. “In the United States, few words are more polarizing than race and racism, yet Americans suffer from constant racial tension, race-based economic disparities and institutionalized racism. If we are to change this, white Americans must listen to those experiences and perspectives that could inform and enlighten us. Our blindness to our privilege is oppressive. Our sense of entitlement is embarrassing.” So I’ve read your book. Really genuinely enjoyed. Amy: Thank you. Zach: Like, as a black man I was like, “Wow, I’m really surprised there’s a white person saying this.” Right? Like, I was very surprised. I’ve read content in the past, like from various authors, who have a similar tone, but they’re typically not white. In this you allude to allyship, so could you first expound on this excerpt and then help us understand what you mean by being an ally and being someone who listens and learns and things of that nature? Amy: Sure. So I’m gonna start by saying that I’m really grateful that you’re calling attention to this chapter. This chapter, writing that chapter about race, was the hardest part of writing the book, and the book almost didn’t get written because I knew that I couldn’t write a book about diversity and inclusion without acknowledging that I’m white, and I didn’t--I struggled so much with how to write about that in a way that was from my perspective but not exclusive of other perspectives, and I struggled with how to write it in a way that was genuine and authentic without--you know, there’s a lot wrapped up in the word “race” for everybody, and, you know, as a white woman I think that, you know, I’ve heard other white people say it’s important for us to talk about this because white folks have access to conversations and audiences that people of color do not, and I think until I wrote about this, on my blog and in my book, I didn’t really understand what that meant. So getting back to your question though, I think allyship is important because as you noted, I--you know, I exist in a white world. I mean, that’s just--that’s my reality, right? The environment that I grew up in--I grew up in southern Indiana in a rural community that was 99.9% white, non-Hispanic, and I was--you know, I was kind of the ethnic one in the room most of the time because I wasn’t German and Catholic, you know? I was different, and I wasn’t that different, right? So, you know, it’s been hard for me to get to a place where I can understand my role in the race conversation, and it wasn’t that I grew up necessarily thinking that--I didn’t grow up thinking that racism was okay. I mean, that was, you know, very ingrained in me from an early age, but what racism meant in an all-white community, it was still racism, right? Even if you weren’t racist, like, it was still a racist environment because there was no--there was no one different. So it’s been an evolution for me over, you know, the course of time, and when I wrote the chapter on race and the blog post on race, I actually reached out to a couple of people of color in my network, and I said, “I would like some feedback on this. I would like some help with this,” and Sabrina Bristow, a friend of mine from North Carolina, she does social justice work in the human services space of government, and she helped me with that chapter. And I actually--I kind of had started a little too advanced, she thought, for most white people, so I had to backtrack a little bit and include, “Okay, here are some things I’m getting right already,” right? By including people of color in my network and, you know, having genuine relationships, and going out of my way to find people and to build relationships across racial boundaries, because it’s very easy for us, for anyone, to stay in their neighborhood, to stay in their enclave, right? And we’re a very segregated society, especially--you know, I think--in the northern states I think we’re a little more segregated even because of public policy that drove segregation kind of under the--you know, under the covers. It wasn’t explicit, right? But it was perhaps--and I hate to use the word effective because it sounds positive and it’s not, but, you know, it was perhaps a more lasting segregation in the north because it was policy that was guiding it, and it was subversive policy at that. You know, in the south, where it was very explicit, it was easier to undo. So I’ve had to learn all of this because this isn’t what we’re taught in schools, and it’s not--you know, if you pick up the newspaper or magazines or, you know, if you read white bloggers, you don’t read about this. What I’ve had to do is I’ve had to expand where I get my information and who I listen to and what those people learn. So, you know, you get a much different perspective if you--I’ll get outside of the black and white, you know, racial categories for a moment--if you read books for Asian-Americans written by Asian-American authors, for example, about the corporate landscape, what you read sounds much different than, you know, what you might get if you are in a meeting with a bunch of managers and there’s, you know, a 5-minute section on how to include Asian-Americans in your work [inaudible], right? It’s just different. It’s a different perspective. Zach: Yeah. Amy: And so, you know, I started listening and learning that I need to go where I’m a fly on the wall listening to how people talk amongst themselves about the problems that they’re facing, and then I need to figure out how I can--when those perspectives are not represented in a room that I’m in, how can I bring those perspectives to light so that the people who are in the room understand that their perspective isn’t the only one that matters just because they’re the only ones in the room? Zach: As an ally, how do you balance being vocal while not, I don’t know, talking too much? Like, do you have any type of rules that you follow to not, in a sense, colonize the movements and spaces you want to support? Amy: Yeah. So I knew that you were gonna ask me that question, so thank you for that in advance, and I struggled with it originally because I don’t have hard and fast rules. I think the guidelines that I try to follow are--I’ve come to the realization that when people are in the majority in a room, any room, they’re very candid, and perhaps too candid sometimes, right, that they divulge things that they probably shouldn’t. People tend to be very candid when they’re in--like, especially in a super majority in a room. People who are in a minority in a room tend to be very emotionally intelligent, right? Because speaking up can be threatening, and so what I’ve found is if I’m in a space where I’m a minority, if, you know, maybe I’m the only white person in the room--maybe I’m the only non-Hispanic in the room, maybe I’m the only woman in the room. That happens quite a bit. You know, I tend to be more in listening mode and receiving mode, and I try not to ask a lot of questions because I don’t want other people to have to educate me, but I think about those questions, and then I can go research them later. I can contemplate or I can read and, you know, not stop the conversation because, you know, the white lady has a question, right? Let the conversation continue as it is, and I can absorb and kind of take that away. But then when something comes up where I feel like someone else is being dismissed, that’s when I speak up. So I have a hard time speaking up for myself. If I’m feeling defensive about--you know, like I said, I grew up in technology, and I started in ‘99, and I was frequently told, you know, “Oh, you’re really analytical for a girl,” or, you know, “Wow, you code really well for a woman,” you know? And I would just kind of roll my eyes, and if I said anything back it was usually not--it was usually not work-appropriate if I said something back. Let’s just leave it at that. And so I got to the point where I was like, “You know what? I’m not even gonna address these things,” but where I have learned that there’s power and where I think you build respect and you can become an ally--I don’t think you make a decision to be an ally and you are one, and I would never use the word ally to describe myself without first saying, “I aspire to be an ally,” because I think it’s ongoing work. I don’t think you can give yourself that title. I think someone else has to give it to you. Zach: Wow, yeah. Amy: But the ways in--I’m sorry, go ahead. Zach: I was just saying wow. Like, yes, absolutely. I’m listening to you. Amy: Yeah. So the way I aspire to be an ally and the way I aspire to do the work of an ally is to recognize what perspectives are missing, and if those perspectives were in the room and had a voice, what would they say? Or if those perspectives are in the room and don’t feel like they have a voice, can I make space for that? Can I stop the conversation so that someone else who is maybe not in the super majority in the room can speak up? Or, even more importantly, can I say “Hold on, I think if we look at this from a different perspective,” and then I can share what I’ve learned by being in those spaces, right? In those spaces that are predominantly of color or, you know, in different ways so that I can help bridge that gap and sort of make that translation so that it doesn’t always fall on the one black person in the room or the one Hispanic person in the room or, you know, the one Asian-American in the room to speak up, right? To me that’s allyship, not making people advocate for themselves all the time. You have to advocate in a way that includes them. Zach: Yeah. You talked a little bit about gender diversity and you being the only woman in the room, and I can empathize. I can’t sympathize, right? But I can empathize, and let me confess something, like, with that in mind. For me, it’s deeply frustrating when I see diversity and inclusion programs only focus on gender diversity, right? So, like, if you look at the tech space, and if you ask, like, the common, average person--we have this app called Fishbowl, which is, like, an anonymous posting app for consultants, and there are times when I’ve seen people post questions like, “What do you think about the diversity and inclusion at your work?” And most people--typically people tend to be a little bit more honest on these anonymous online threads, for good or bad--they’ll say, “Well, it’s good for white women,” right? And so for me, I agree with that, right? Outside looking in as a black man, like, just my perspective, it seems as if these programs are very much so focused on gender diversity but don’t really look at the cross-section of the ethnic diversity or the sexual orientation diversity, right? So in your book you talk about representation in the C-Suite, in chapter 33. Can you talk more about that particular chapter and the things that you wrote around that topic? Amy: Sure, and I don’t have the book in front of me so I’m gonna not speak specifically to the numbers… Zach: Sure. [laughs] Amy: [laughs] Because I don’t have the numbers memorized. That’s why there’s a book. You know, the representation of women I think--of white women, and I want to be clear that we’re talking--and I think you and I spoke about this before we did the interview, right? Zach: Right. Amy: We talked about we get these numbers about, you know, pay disparity, and we say it’s 83 cents on the dollar for women, and that’s not true. It’s 83 cents on the dollar for white women. The numbers for, you know, women of color get worse and worse, right, as you start going down the list. So, you know, black women make less than white women, Latina women make less than that, indigenous women--you know, I don’t even know if they collect the data on that, right? It’s ridiculous the disparity between white women and women of color, and when we talk about women, right, we tend to talk about women as if that’s all women, and it’s not. It’s white women, so let’s be very clear about that. White women make up--and I want to say it’s less than 6% of the C-Suite, right? Of CEO positions in the United States, and I think there were, like, 27 this year out of the Fortune 500. So we’re talking, like, itty-bitty numbers, right? But white women have better representation in the C-Suite at their 4 or 5% or whatever it is, have better representation in the CEO spots of the Fortune 500 than do all people of color, and so I agree with you. I think that it’s a missed opportunity when we--you know, I think ERGs are important, and I talk about that in the book too, employee resource groups and how it can help you connect in spaces that are affinity groups for you, and it can help you connect in spaces that are not affinity groups for you so you can understand different perspectives, but I think one of the things that that can do if we’re not careful is it can kind of divide people up where the employee resource group for women ends up being all white women because women of color identify as, you know, Latina or, you know, African-American first and women second, and the pride ERG is the same way by the way. I think, you know, a lot of times the LGBTQ community is the white LGBTQ community and ignores the perspectives of people of color and, you know, assumes, right, “Well, if they’re here they’ll find us because they’re gay,” and that’s the most important thing to the LGBTQ community that’s white is that they’re gay, but, you know, for--you know, for Asian-Americans or Hispanic-Americans or black Americans that may also be LGBTQ, that’s not the first thing people recognize about them, and so their primary identity is in the racial--you know, in the racial or ethnic category. So all of that to say I don’t think we should cut people up. I think what we should do instead is, you know, recognize that feminism has been white feminism for a long time. You know, white women have benefited a lot from not just their own advocacy but also from the civil rights movement and the African-American civil rights movement of the ‘60s, and instead of claiming ours and then hoping that other people will follow or, you know, “Once we get there we’ll reach out our hand,” I think is the absolute wrong approach. I think what we need to do instead is when white women hear that, oh, we make 83 cents on the dollar, I think it’s incumbent upon us, it’s imperative for us to say, “That’s not the number for women. That’s the number for white women,” and we need to be the ones, white women need to be the ones to stand up to say, “Look, this is not an inclusive conversation just because you’re talking about me. That doesn’t mean you’re being inclusive of everyone.” And, you know, we all face the same systemic issues, right? White women face a lot of the same issues that people of color face that, you know, people who are immigrants face, but the way we’ve carved up the problem it’s like we’re each trying to get our own seat, and what my book seeks to do is to get everybody, like, wherever they are, to start reaching out. So it’s almost--instead of one person trying to break through, it’s more like a game of Red Rover, right, where we’re all holding hands, we’re all moving forward together, and then when we get there we all get there together. And then our C-Suite isn’t, you know, 10 white men and two white women and maybe a person of color, it’s, you know, this whole Red Rover game of black, white, Hispanic, gay, straight, you know, Asian, men, women, non-binary, cisgender, transgender, you know, abled, people with disabilities. You know, it’s all these things, and we all get there together and we all lift each other up. Zach: Hm. So talk to me a little bit about Lead At Any Level. So I know that you intro’d with that, about the company that you’ve started, and you’ve shared that you’re from Indianapolis and that you engage in predominantly white spaces. So I’m not trying to be pessimistic, right, but I’m looking at… Amy: [laughs] Zach: [laughs] I’m looking at American history, and I’m also looking at the words that you wrote in your book, and I’m curious, like, how do you expect to break through and work past, as you’ve described it, the entitlement of white folks? I ask because I’d say any time we as Americans talk about race--so, like, if you want to look at the situation around kneeling, if you want to talk about even how we talk about diversity, and we say, “Well, it’s about thought diversity,” and if you want to talk about--any time that we’ve in the past I would say 54--really the past 400 years, but just looking at, like, our most recent era of just, like, the past 50, 60 years, we talk about race within the context of making sure that the majority is comfortable with the ways that we engage topics around race. So I’m curious as someone who’s starting a company, or rather who has started a company really tackling this subject, how do you plan on breaking through and navigating that? Amy: Sure. So people of color can’t fix racism, right? People of color can--there are all of these--you know, there’s, like, respectability politics, and I know that there’s a lot of code switching, and there are all of these things that happen within communities and within just the mindset and the sort of the self-censoring people of color, right? And no matter what happens, right, whether it’s a protest--you know, someone kneeling for the anthem because of, you know, the pain in this country that’s happening, right, or, you know--it’s one of those things where it’s kind of like you’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t, right? If you march, it’s the wrong march. If you speak, it’s the wrong words. If you protest, it’s the wrong protest. If you’re quiet, it’s the wrong thing. You know? We’ve tried every combination of people of color doing things to try to end racism, and where racism needs to end is in white America. Like, white folks are the ones who are gonna have to step up and fix this because we’re the ones that are perpetuating the problem. So I want to be clear. My company is not--the stated purpose of my company is not “end racism in the United States,” and I know there are people for whom that is their mission, right? That is their work. What I want to do is I want to help individuals at all levels of organizations see that if they’re not accepting and welcoming and doing hard work around their own biases and their own privileges and understanding that maybe--you know, maybe yeah, you’re really qualified for this job that you’ve gotten, but you probably got there not just based on your qualifications but also based on, you know, your relationships and based on the network that you have and your ability to say and do the right things and to look a certain way, right? So if I can help people understand, and particularly white folks, right, that hey, if you really want to be a leader, being a leader means standing up for those who don’t have a voice. Being a leader means being courageous. Being a leader means moving beyond where you’re comfortable into where you really need to go. That’s what leadership is, and, you know, through the work that I’m doing, whether it’s, you know, consulting or coaching or classroom training, yeah, I do--some people might say that I soft-pedal it in a way that makes it more palatable, but I think that in a lot of cases unless you can get your foot in the door you can’t even have a conversation. And so, you know, I talk about privilege in terms of, like--in kind of silly terms to start, but it opens people’s minds to the conversation you can have about privilege, you know, if you can just start laying those--you know, putting those seeds in the ground, and then you can build the conversation from there. I think the great tragedy, and I think where privilege is, you know, just at the most basic level, is that, you know, I grew up white. I grew up talking a little bit about race, but it wasn’t an everyday conversation in my household growing up, right, because it wasn’t that my family needed to worry about, and I think that’s the experience of a lot of white folks is that, you know, we--you know, they tell us, “You just treat everybody the same and you’ll be all right,” and that’s not enough, and I think it wasn’t until just the last couple of years where I realized that treating everybody the same and treating everyone respectfully isn’t enough. Like, we have to take steps to undo some of the damage, and we--you know, I don’t think any one of us can do it all, but, you know, if we can all do it in our own way in a way that’s authentic, in a way that gives us life, and not in a way that--and that’s different for everybody, right? There are ways for me to do this that are energizing and there are ways for me to do this that leave me in a crumpled heap on the floor, and so I’ve had to find my own way to have this conversation that I feel is energizing and that I feel is productive and that I feel like is authentic for me, and that won’t be the same for everyone. So I’m not sure I’ve answered the question, but I think because I’m white I can talk about racism without being labeled as angry, you know? But on the flip of that, because I’m a woman, if I talk about sexism or I talk about, you know, gender disparities, or if I call out someone’s micro-aggressions, you know, where they’ve referred to me as a girl, or--you know, people--one of my favorites is when I’m traveling people are like, “Well, who watches your kids?” I’m like, “You have never asked a man that question. Ever.” [laughs] “You have never asked a man who watches his kids when he’s traveling for work.” Like, nobody does that, right? Zach: Right. Amy: But if I call that out as a woman, and not just a white woman but as a woman, I’m too sensitive, right? So I need--in the same way that I need to stand up and say, you know, “Whoa, hold on.” You know, “Don’t insult a person of color by telling them they’re articulate.” You know? Like, why wouldn’t they be art--like, that’s not a compliment, right? That’s a slap in the face. I need to stand up for that because I’m not angry, I’m just pointing out, you know, somebody’s ignorance, right? Whereas if you did that--you could have the exact same conversation, use the same words, the same tone of voice, but then you’re gonna be labeled as angry, right? “Why are you so angry?” And I think in the same way, you know, women need men, not just white men but men of color, and women of color need this as well, for men to say, “Hold up.” You know? “She’s not being sensitive. You’re being a jerk.” Zach: [laughs] Amy: [laughs] And kind of tease that out, and that’s kind of the point of the book about--you know, the whole part about allyship is if you want somebody to stand up for you, you have to be willing to stand up for somebody else first, and that’s what I’m trying to do. Zach: That’s powerful. No, this is amazing, and I’ve really appreciated our conversation. So before we wrap up I want to know, do you have any shout outs? Anybody that you want to recognize and thank? Amy: Oh. Well, first of all I want to shout out to Jennifer Brown. Jennifer Brown is a consultant, a TEDx speaker--or maybe a TED speaker--she’s amazing, and she wrote the foreword to my book. She is one of the most internationally-recognized diversity and inclusion experts in the country, and I want to thank her. She was the first person to encourage me in this work. I just want to thank her for that. She’s been amazing. And I want to shout out to you guys. You guys are doing something--the Living Corporate podcast is doing something that I think is wonderful, where you’re giving a voice and you’re giving kind of the inside scoop to folks who maybe feel like they’re on the outside, and you’re creating a sense of community that is beyond corporate borders, beyond--you know, you’re knocking down walls and reaching out and holding hands, and I think that’s amazing, and I’ve been so impressed with the quality and the insights that you guys provide on this podcast. I think it’s amazing, so I want to shout out to all of you. Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you so much, and let’s make sure that we link your book, Network Beyond Bias: Making Diversity A Competitive Advantage, in our show notes, and we’ll put it on our Favorite Things so that-- Amy: Oh, thank you. Zach: No problem, ‘cause I really enjoyed it, and I think everyone who’s listening to this should read it. I don’t care where you’re at in the diversity and inclusion discussion or--if you’re listening to this, you should read it. It is a great read. Amy C. Waninger. Thank you so much for your time today. We definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back. Amy: Well, thank you, Zach. I’d love to come back. Zach: Awesome. Peace. Ade: And we’re back. Wow, that was an amazing interview. So real talk, right next to our Preston Mitchum B-Side, that was top 5. Top 5, top 5, top 5. I know Drake’s cancelled, but whatever. [laughs] Zach: That was a really real talk, yeah. I mean, honestly, it was refreshing to have someone who doesn’t look like you empathize with your experiences and be so honest about the reality of the world that we live in, right? Ade: Seriously. I truly appreciated her comments around, you know, gender diversity and LGBTQ diversity. I think that intersectionality is just such a big thing, and it’s very easy to get lost in the sauce, but also we just have to keep in mind the multi-faceted nature of being and also the fact that under-represented and marginalized identities in general experience very, very different things in the spaces we occupy. Zach: Absolutely. And I think ultimately, when I think through my interview with Amy, the biggest step revolves around courage and just speaking up. It’s not like she had some secret formula. She was just speaking truth to power. I mean, we had a section even on there where she said, “Look, there’s a point as a white woman where I have certain privileges where I can speak to race and I can speak to ethnic and diversity, and at the same time, Zach, even though you’re a person of color, as a man you have the opportunity to speak to items around sexism,” right? And patriarchy and things of that nature. So there’s opportunity for us to speak up. Ade: Right, and I think the abiding truth of Living Corporate as a whole is we’re challenging our listeners and ourselves--we’re holding ourselves responsible as well--to live authentically but also with courage, you know? And what the conversation with Amy reminded me of was the fact that--and she sort of alluded to this--we have more power than we believe we do. In a lot of ways we empower each other, we empower ourselves, when we speak up for others, when we utilize our privilege in ways we never have before. When you group with people who look like you and ERGs, affinity groups, happy hours, whatever, all of these things exist because they are necessary and there is a space for them, but even beyond those resources and beyond those spaces, figuring out ways to, you know, plant your roots and insist that you will not be moved, in a lot of ways figuring out how to collaborate with others, support each other, challenge other people, and bringing your whole self--in a professional fashion--to work. Supporting others honestly and truly is really your call to action, I suppose. Zach: Absolutely. Okay, so let’s go ahead and get into our Favorite Things. Ade: Oh, that’s like my favorite. My favorite, my favorite, my favorite. My favorite section. All right, so I hate to sound like the book nerd but I can’t help myself. I’m on, like, my 80th read-through of a book called Sister Outsider by this amazing writer by the name of Audrey Lord. If I ever, ever, ever am blessed to parent a kid, I’d probably name one or several of them Audrey, and yes, I am absolutely willing to have an Audrey 1 and an Audrey 2 in my household just for the sake of having a child named after Audrey Lord. Anyway, that said, if you’ve never read Sister Outsider, Audrey Lord basically has this collection of essays in this book, and if you’re at all interested in black feminist literature she’s a really great place to start. My other favorite thing at this point? I’m really living for thunderstorms. I think I’ve mentioned a couple of times--again, like, I’m a very predictable person so, like, books and water, those are, like, my things. So I’m really into thunderstorms right now. I sleep to the sound of thunderstorms, and this is a complete aside, but there’s this app on my phone and it’s the only thing that gets me to sleep. It’s called Tide, and there is a thunderstorm sound setting on there, and it puts me right to sleep, and it’s the greatest thing ever. So I’m here for actual thunderstorms. I’m here for thunderstorm sounds. I’m here for thunderstorm playlists. So if anybody out there actually has a link for a thunderstorm playlist, hook me up. I’m here for it. That’s all I got. What about you, Zach? Zach: Wow. So first thing is--[laughs]--definitely I love Audrey Lord as well. You know, great work. Beautiful work. The point around thunderstorms is interesting. Technology is crazy. So you’re telling me there’s an app now that actually simulates thunderstorms? Ade: An app. It simulates thunderstorms. It simulates ocean sounds. You can do, like, a focus period. It does naps. It’s frickin’ amazing. Sponsor us, Tide. Zach: Sponsor us, Tide, and we’ll [inaudible]-- Ade: I’m here for you guys. Zach: Ah, yeah. That’s something I’m--I’m trying to get into this. That’s great. [laughs] Ade: [laughs] No, but seriously. Zach: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Okay, so Tide is the name of the app? Okay, I’m gonna check that out. Ade: It does forest sounds. There are forest sounds, my guy. Zach: Forest sounds? Okay. Well, cool. Look, my favorite thing right now has to be Amy C. Waninger’s book Network Beyond Bias, right? So I shouted it out during the actual interview with Amy, and I told her that I was gonna shout it out during Favorite Things because I really enjoyed it. I read it. Very thoughtful, very frank, very approachable. Definitely a recommended read for anyone interested in learning about diversity and inclusion, leadership development, unconscious bias, effective representation, and a slew of other things. It’s very, very thorough. It covers so many different topics in very--just, again, approachable and transparent ways. Ade: Oh. Well, okay. Great. As a reminder, to see all of our Favorite Things, very, very simple. You just want to go to our website, www.living-corporate.com, and click “FAVES” right across the top. Zach: Yes, and as another reminder, we have a Patreon. In fact, you-- Ade: [imitating air horns] Zach: Okay… Okay, so Sound Man, go ahead and add those horns. [Sound Man complies] Zach: [laughs] As another reminder, we have a Patreon. In fact, Sound Man--so I know you just hit Ade with the horns, but go ahead and hit me with some of that royalty-free jazz music. I mean, I don’t know, you can probably find some tracks from, like, 1970 or something. Just give me something smooth. [Sound Man complies again] Zach: Okay. You playing it? Okay, here we go. So listen, I know you want exclusive content, right? But you can’t get it for free. But guess what? We got it. You want giveaways? We got that. You want extended interviews? We got that. You want exclusive writing written by guests? We got that, and guess what? It only costs a dollar to get in, baby. Just a dollar. Ade: [laughs] Zach: One dollar. So do me a favor, do you a favor, do us a favor, and become a patron. Become a patron today. I got the links in the show notes right there. Open up your phone and press details. You’re gonna see the links all right there. All right, that’s it. I’m done. Sound Man, cut it off. [Sound Man dutifully complies] Ade: I wasn’t ready… So we just got to go home. Okay, guys. That was our show. Thank you for joining us at the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate. We’re also on Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don’t forget to check us out on Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. We’re all over Al Gore’s internet. And that does it for us on this show. My name is Ade. Zach: And this has been Zach. Ade: A pleasure as always. Ade and Zach: Peace. Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.