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Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 4 – Joy in the Elementary Math Classroom Guest: Amy Parks, Ph.D. Mike Wallus: Teaching is a complex and challenging job. It's also one where educators experience moments of deep joy and satisfaction. What might it look like to build a culture of joy in an elementary mathematics classroom? Michigan State professor Amy Parks has some ideas. Today on the podcast, we explore ways educators can construct joyful experiences for their youngest mathematics learners.  Mike: Well, welcome to the podcast, Amy. I'm so excited to be talking with you about joy in the elementary mathematics classroom. Amy Parks: I'm so happy to be here. Mike: So, your article in MTLT was titled, “Creating Joy in PK–Grade 2 Mathematics Classrooms.” And early on you draw a distinction between math classrooms where students are experiencing joy and those that are fun. And you quote Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, who say, “Being joyful is not just about having more fun, we're talking about a more empathic, more empowered, more spiritual state of mind that's totally engaged with the world.” That really is powerful. So, I'm wondering if you could tell me about the difference between classrooms that foster joy and those that are just more fun. Amy: Yeah, I was very struck by that quote when I read it the first time in “The Book of Joy.” And I think one of the reasons that book is powerful for me is that the two people writing it didn't have these super easy lives, right? Particularly the Archbishop Desmond Tutu was imprisoned in the country that was openly hostile to him, and yet he was still really committed to approaching his work and the world with joy. And so, I often think if he could do that, then surely the rest of us can get up and do that. And it also tied into something I often see in elementary classrooms, which is this focus on activities that are fun, like sugary cereal, right? They're immediately attractive, but they don't stick with us and maybe they're not really good for us. I often think the prototypical example is, like, analyses of packets of M&Ms. When I think about the intellectual energy that has gone into counting and sorting and defining colors of M&Ms, it makes me a little sad, given all the big questions that are out there that even really young kids can engage with. And so, yes, I want children to be playful and to laugh and to engage with materials they enjoy. But also, I think there is this quieter kind of joy that comes from making mathematical connections and understanding the world in new ways and grasping the thinking and ideas of others. And so, when I'm pointing toward joy, that's part of what I'm trying to point toward. Mike: So, I want to dig into this a little bit more because one of your first recommendations for sparking joy is this idea that we need to make some room for play. And my guess is that that raises many questions for elementary educators, like “What do you mean by play?” and “What role does the teacher play in play?” Can you talk a little bit about this recommendation, Amy? Amy: Yeah. So, when I have more time than that very short article to talk about, one of the things that I like to bring out to teachers is that we can think of play in sort of three broad buckets. So, one is “free play,” and this is an area where the teacher may not have a lot of roles except to sort of define health and safety limits. So certainly, recess is a place of free play. But there are places at recess where children are encountering mathematical ideas, right? There are walking in straight lines and they're balancing on things and they're seeing whether they all have the same amount of materials and toys. So, those are all mathematical contexts that we can, as teachers later bring in and highlight in places where they can engage. But they're not places where teachers are setting learning goals and reinforcing things. And particularly in the lower grades, we might see also free play opportunities in the classroom. Amy: You know, many kindergarten classrooms have opportunities for free play during the school day. So, while kids are playing in the kitchen for example, or doing puzzles, they may be again encountering mathematical ideas and teachers certainly can capitalize on that. But they're not directing or shaping the play. And then there are these two other categories where the teacher's role is maybe more present. So, one I would call “guided play.” And this is a case where the teacher and the children are really handing responsibility back and forth. So, the teacher might set up a relatively open-ended task like pattern block puzzles or a commercial game that gets at counting or something like that. And so, the teacher has an intended mathematical goal. She has set some limits to keep children focused on that in some way. But the task is in the hands of the kids. They're playing together, they're negotiating roles, they have that more central responsibility. And the learning goals may be a little bit broader and more open because of that. Because since you're not centrally involved, you can't be so specific. Amy: And then the last kind of play I talk with teachers about are “playful lessons.” Children might not have as much choice in the activity that they do. They might not be able to stop and start it or move in certain ways, but teachers are intentionally bringing aspects of play into the mathematics lesson. And that could be by using engaging materials. It could be by creating places for creativity. It could be by creating spaces for social collaboration. It could be just by inviting children to use their bodies in ways that are comfortable to them instead of being really constrained. But the mathematical task might be much more specific and “Build this cube and identify the vertices on it.” So, the task is constrained, but because they're using materials, because they can do it in different ways, there's this playful aspect to it. So, I like to encourage teachers to sort of think those three buckets of play and where kids are getting access to them during the day. Mike: Yeah, I think that's really helpful. Because I did teach kindergarten for a long time, and so I think my definition of play was really the first one that you were talking about, which is free play. But hearing you talk about the other two definitions actually helps open space up for me. I feel like with that broader definition, it helps me consider the choices that I've got in front of me. Amy: Yeah, and if you talk [to]—or read even—mathematicians, they will often talk about playing with ideas. So, there is a part of play that is inherently mathematical, the part that is about experimenting and investigating and trying things out and recognizing that you might be wrong and getting this engagement from others. So, I think sometimes even mathematics lessons that look relatively traditional can also have this playful spirit if we bring that to it. Mike: I would love to talk to you a little bit about the way that choice can be a key component in sparking joy. So, what are some of the options that teachers have at their disposal to offer choice to learners in their classrooms? Amy: Yeah, I think that this is something that's often overlooked. And I think that for kids in school right now, they often have so few choices. Their experiences are often so constrained by adults. And simply by allowing children to choose when they can, we can make experiences more joyful for them. So, one easy thing is who or whether children will work with other people. So yes, there are all kinds of benefits to group tasks and social interactions, but also lots of children are introverts. And being in a small room for six hours a day with 25 other people can be exhausting. And so, simply giving the children the choice to say, “I'm going to do this one on my own,” can be a huge relief to some children. Other children, like, need to talk—just like other adults—talk to others to know what they're thinking. And so, they need these groups. Amy: And then I think also teachers can get really involved in choosing the magic right group, but often there is no magic right group as we know because we're constantly rejuggling these groups because they didn't work in the magic way we thought. And so just letting kids pick their groups, because then they have responsibility for that interaction. And it's not that they never have difficult social interactions, but they've chosen to be with this person and they have to work through it. So that's one. The other thing is letting children choose physically where they work. Some children lie on the floor while they work, or some children stand up at their seat. Allowing some choice in freedom of movement doesn't mean allowing total chaos. And I think even pretty young children can be taught that they can move within limits in the classroom. And I think if children get to stop expending so much energy trying to control their bodies in the ways adults find helpful, they can engage more fully in the academics of the day. Amy: And then, like, choices of materials. So, we can make different things available to kids as they engage with mathematics, choices of problems. They may choose to do some and not others. Lower grades like using centers. If we have multiple centers that all get at the same mathematical idea, maybe it doesn't actually matter whether all kids get to all of them, right? As long as they're engaging with making units of 10, however they're doing that, can work for us. So, I think in general, the more often we can give children choices about anything, the better off all of us are. Mike: I think that last bit is really interesting. I just want to pause for a second on it. Because what you've got me thinking is, if I have options available and they're all really addressing some of the same mathematical goals or a range of goals that I have in my class, this idea that I can release control and invite kids to make choices, that seems like a really practical first step that a teacher could take to think about, “What are the options? What are the goals that they meet?” And then, “To what degree can I offer those as choices?” Amy: Yeah, and in a really basic way, right? Sometimes we might have a game that works with kids on making tens, and then other times we might have a project or even a worksheet. And different kids may be drawn to those different things. There are some kids for whom games might be really exciting, but there are some kids for whom games might be really stressful, and they would just rather do something else. And that's fine because the point isn't actually playing the game, right? Mike: I think that's really interesting. I could get so caught up as a teacher sometimes trying to get the mechanics of getting kids out to places and getting kids started and making sure that kids were doing the thing that I would sometimes lose track of, “My point in doing this is to have kids think about structuring 10 or making sense of fractions.” That's a lovely reminder. I really appreciate that. I think that this is a really nice turning point because this question about choice actually plays into one of the other recommendations you had regarding time on task. So, I would love to have you unpack your thinking on this topic, Amy. Amy: Yeah. Well, you talked about being autobiographical, and this is definitely autobiographical for me because I am very on task. I like to get things done. I like to check things off my list. And that was definitely a force for me when I was teaching. And I think it was something that, one, caused anxiety for me and my kids, and two, limited our opportunities to engage in more playful ways and more joyful ways to follow curiosities because I was so worried about that. And honestly, when it came home to me was when I started teaching university students because I think it is a little harder to clap your hands at 19-year-olds and tell them to get back to work than to do it with 7-year-olds. And what I realized was if I step back and I let my students talk about “The Bachelor” for a minute, they would have the conversation and then they would move on to the mathematical task, and I actually didn't need to intervene. And me intervening would've shifted the emotional tone of the class in a way that would not have been productive for learning, right? Amy: They would've become resentful or maybe felt self-conscious. And now I have this thing in the way as opposed to just letting them have that break. And I think if we pay attention as adults to how we are in staff meetings or how we are in professional development, we recognize we have a lot of informal conversations around the work we do, and that those informal conversations are not distractions. They're actually, like, building the relationships that let us do the work. And it is similarly true for children. And then I think another thing to remember about particularly young children is language learning, social relationships, all of those are things they actually need to develop. That's part of our work as teachers is to help them grow in those things. And so, giving them the opportunity to build those relationships is, in fact, part of our work. Mike: I think that's really interesting because I found myself, as you were talking, thinking through my own day, when I log into Zoom to talk to someone across the country. We don't immediately start just working through our agenda. We exchange pleasantries, we tell a joke or two, we talk about what's going on in our world, and we can have an incredibly productive chunk of time. But there are these pieces of social reality that kind of bind us together as people, right? When I'm talking to my friend Nataki in North Carolina, I'm asking her about her son. That might take two minutes out of 55. We've still done a tremendous amount of work and thought deeply about the kind of professional learning we want to provide to teachers. But there's the reality that if we didn't do that, how are we connected? If we're partnering to do this work, there's something about being connected to the other person that we can't schedule out of the experience of working together. Does that make sense? Amy: Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's true in classroom settings, too. I was thinking the “Batman” movie, the Ben Affleck one was filmed in Detroit, and they happened to be filming right outside the building where I was teaching. And at some point, one of my adult students looked out the window and was, like, there's Ben Affleck. And of course, all my students got up and went to the window. I could have as the teacher been, like, “OK, sit down. We're doing whatever we're doing.” But their minds were all going to be on Ben Affleck out the window. And so instead, we stopped and we watched the movie for a little bit, and that became an experience we came back to as a class over and over in the semester. “Remember when that happened?” And so, yeah, that pressure to be productive I think often interferes with the relationship building that does support good work among adult colleagues and among kids in classrooms. And I would also connect it to the opening conversation on play. Mike: So, before we close the interview, I'm wondering if you have any recommendations for someone who wants to continue learning about how they could design opportunities for joy in their classrooms. Are there any resources that you would point a listener to? Amy: I mean, I have a book on play in early mathematics, and that would certainly be a place that someone could start. But, you know, the other thing that I might do is just look at some of the great materials that are out there, both like physical things like Legos and magnet tiles, which often if you don't have at your school, you can get through thrift stores and things. And just bringing them into classrooms and seeing what kids do with them. Oh, the other thing that I always recommend is looking at some of the resources on “soft starts.” And if you just Google this, you'll see videos and articles. And this is often a really, like, nonthreatening way for teachers who are interested in this but haven't done a lot of play in their classrooms, to begin.  Amy: And the idea is instead of immediately starting with a worksheet or whatever, that you bring in some kind of toy or tool, and maybe children can make some choices about whether they're going to paint or they're going to work on a puzzle, and you just take 15 minutes and that's how you begin the day. And people who have done this, so many people have said it's just been such a lovely culture shift in their classroom, and it also means that children are coming in a little late. It's fine. They can just come in and join, and then everyone's ready to go 15 minutes later, and you really haven't given up that much of your day. So, I think that can be a really, a really smooth entry into this if you're interested. Mike: Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us, Amy. It really has been a pleasure talking with you. Amy: Oh, you, too. It was so fun. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2023 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Joining me on the CIHAS pod this week is writer and poet, Amy Key. Amy has a new book coming out in April called Arrangements in Blue, which explores living in the absence of romantic love. She also wrote this incredible essay for the Vittles Substack called In Praise of Cravings which I was a little skeptical of at first, as you'll hear us talk about, but which ended up transforming the way I thought about cravings. Amy subverts the idea that we should pathologise our cravings and invites us to explore how food can be a gateway to satisfying non-food cravings as well. Amy also talks really openly about her own relationship with food and how she experienced an eating disorder as a teen, and how part of that healing now is trying on the word fat and noticing how that feels. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Amy's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Pre-order Amy's book here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Amy: And you're sort of doing all this mental gymnastics that, um, for me just became a huge waste of intellectual effort. And I thought to myself, I'm just not prepared give food that bit of my brain anymore and that much time.I'd rather focus it on making delicious food that I enjoy to eat, that I enjoy preparing, that I want to share with other people. And also I'm not prepared to be hungry because if I am hungry, I'm thinking about food all the time. And I, you know, I find that I don't really, don't really have like much snacking type habits because I'm satisfied in a way that I don't think I'd previously been. And it was, that was really liberating for me. Just saying, ah, I'm gonna let, just let all that bit of my brain go, cuz let you know, life's too short for me to devote all this brain power to it and I've got other things I could be doing.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to another episode of the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas. I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to the writer and poet Amy Key.Amy wrote this incredible essay for the Vittles Substack called In Praise of Cravings, and as you'll hear us talk about, when I first read the essay, I was kind of skeptical about it, but there was this moment in it that transformed the way that I thought about what Amy was saying, and now I can't get the idea of trusting cravings and leaning into cravings out of my head.Amy subverts the idea that we should pathologise our cravings and invites us to explore how food can be a gateway to satisfying non-food cravings as well. So like how creating someone's favourite dish can help us feel connected to someone we miss, and someone who we're longing. Amy also talks really openly about her own relationship with food and how she experienced an eating disorder as a teen, and how part of that healing now is trying on the word fat and noticing how that feels.So we'll get to Amy in just a minute, but first of all, a couple of notes. This is your last shout for my Raising Embodied Eater's Workshop on the 21st of February. It's a 90 minute workshop where we're going to be reflecting on your own relationship with food and your body growing up and thinking about how you want to parent your kids around food and around their bodies.We'll talk about how food rules pressure restriction and trying to micromanage how much and what our kids eat can backfire and harm the relationship with food, and it could also make picky and fussy eating worse. We'll talk about how to support kids innate hunger and fullness cues with flexible structure. We'll think about how to let go of the pressure to feed kids perfectly. We'll talk a lot about embodiment and supporting body autonomy, and also think about ways to respond to food and body shaming comments from family and friends, plus loads and loads more. I'm actually not sure I'm gonna fit it all in. We'll figure it out and there will be some time in the end to ask questions too. So if we don't get to cover absolutely everything we can, you know, answer it in the q and a at the end. And if that sounds good to you, the link to sign up is in the show notes and transcript. Um, it's also on my Instagram bio, so if you're, I don't know, on Instagram, then click click through the link in the bio. It's 15 pounds and the recording will be available for a week after to catch up. You'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters download, which is like a 10 page PDF with loads of helpful things that you can share with family and friends. And, um, like I said, there will be some time at the end to answer your questions, so all the links are in the notes, in the transcript and in my Instagram bio.And just before we get to Amy, I wanted to ask a quick favour. If you've been enjoying these episodes, then please think about leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. It lets people who are on the fence about listening know that it's worth their time. Just a few sentences would really mean a lot and help us grow the Can I Have Another Snack family. So thank you if you do that. I super appreciate it. It's a really low-key, we low-key way that you can support the podcast and the newsletter without becoming a paid subscriber, if that's not something that's available to you right now.All right, team, I think you're gonna really love this episode. So let's get to today's guest, poet, and writer Amy Key.MAIN EPISODELaura: Amy, I'd love it if you could share with us who or what you're nourishing right now.Amy: So, I am nourishing my garden by planting all the bulbs that I did not manage to plant before Christmas, because I had a really bad case of flu. And one of the things that makes me so happy in the spring is seeing all the spring bulbs come up, and I hate, hate, hate winter, so it's kind of like a little present to myself that says the future has hope and bright colours in it.Um, so I've been doing that and also I've moved some of the plants that were not flourishing in the places I'd originally placed them. I've moved them into the communal spaces of the garden and I really hope that they'll take root there. So that's what I'm nourishing right now.Laura: Oh, I love that. First of all, I'm slightly relieved that I'm not the only person who is only just thinking in January about my bulbs. I literally overwintered my tomatoes this weekend and we're like almost at the end of January. SoAmy: That's amazing. Are they still doing their business?Laura: Yeah. So I discovered that. So I live in a flat in London. My balcony for whatever reason, I think because it's almost like an internal balcony. So like only one side is exposed and it has like a little microclimate going on, which I think is because I'm losing all the heat through my patio door, but it's like five degrees warmer than like what the weather app is telling me the weather is, right.So, um, yeah, I've got like eight strawberry plants. They're not producing anything, but like, they were like runners from last year and I've got a couple of tomato plants that I think I can salvage. I mean, they're looking a bit ropey, but I think I can salvage. But you know what, the best thing that happened to me at the weekend was I found a little like potted plant that I got from M&S last year that was full of daffodils. And I like tied a knot in the dead daffodils, threw them in a Sainsbury's bag. And then this past weekend I saw the little, the little bulbs sprouting so I've replanted those. Happy days,Amy: I love it.Laura: And I've got a whole bunch of bulbs as well. I spent way too much money at the Garden Center, but that's, that's, this is how we get our kicks. Right.Amy: I love that idea that things are just like waiting under the surface to surprise you. We don't know where they're gonna come up.Laura: And this is such a perfect segue because you alluded well, you didn't allude, you outright said , I hate winter. And that you're waiting for that hope, that promise that that spring offers of a new life and activity. And, and I think that's something that you also alluded to in your essay that you wrote for Vittles called In Praise of Cravings.Amy: Yes,Laura: I wonder if you could tell us a bit about that essay and really what you were trying to communicate through idea of cravings.Amy: Yeah. So, um, maybe I'll talk a little bit about where it came from. So I was at a family member's house and there were little prompts posted about their flat on cupboards and on the fridge that interrupted the person before they opened the fridge door or opened the cupboard and said, stop, think about it. Are you depressed? Are you thirsty? Are you angry? Are you bored? And I found, I found these prompts so depressing because they were, you know, basically trying to interrupt this desire from a kind of moral point of view, you know, that the tone of it felt a bit cruel to me. And I thought, oh, I wish those things weren't there.I wish those things, I wish that everyone could just be in their kitchen. You know, might, they might wanna snack, they might want to eat a stick of celery. They might want to open the cupboards and think about something they'd really like to make for dinner. And I feel like if I was always interrupted in this way, it would make me feel very bad about myself.So I, that's why I wanted to write about cravings from the perspective of thinking about it in like much more colourful, pleasurable ways, you know that you can follow an impulse and you can trust your body to tell you what you might need in that moment, and that that should be free of any judgment. Laura: Yeah. Oh, I can imagine the scene like it sounds like this person maybe has a trickier, complicated relationship with food and they're, they're sending these, well, I guess we're, we're sort of instructed right by diet culture that our, our cravings, our appetite, our hunger is unreliable. It's untrustworthy. We shouldn't ever indulge it, God forbid that we trust our bodies. Right? And that they needed this. Yeah this physical reminder or like this physical manifestation of the food police on their cupboards to interrupt, that yeah, their desires, their, their need for pleasure, which, which is exactly how diet culture functions, but it's, I can imagine that that was really confronting.Amy: Yeah, it was, and I think, because it's taken me a long time to break down some of the shame I feel in eating and like, because my body is a fat body, um, you know, there's always that sense that I should be denying myself food nonstop, let alone the food that I would like to eat. Or that, you know, there's an assumption that if you have a fat body, you are greedy, um, or that you are eating the wrong things in the wrong way at the wrong time. And that made me really sad because actually food is such an exciting, like place for expression, for creativity and for like friendship and communication. And just downright pleasure, you know, like taste sensations, , all of those things. So all that was all kind of in my mind and it was almost, I felt almost like, oh God, I just wanna write a manifesto, if you like. That is just about being in search of, of what it is I want and, and owning that.Laura: Hmm. I love that idea and this sense of kind of conviction really comes through in the essay of like, I own my appetite, I own my desires, I own my cravings. And that it felt really self assured and confident. But from what you were saying there, it sounds like that wasn't necessarily always the case in your relationship with food, and I wondered if you'd be comfortable sharing a little bit more about your relationship with food was like maybe growing up and, and later into to adulthood.Amy: Yeah, I think like, as was the case for like lots of women, probably of my generation who were you know, children and teenagers in the eighties and nineties, there was always dieting in the house. There was always this sense of like, uh, having a body that should be taken in hand because it got out of control, um, and that, you know, those cycles of that happening all the time. And, you know, I just had like a quite average body. And then as I got into my later teens I developed an eating disorder, you know, ate as little as I could, became very thin and was rewarded for, for being thin. I was rewarded with attention, you know, concerned attention, and, um, I was rewarded by the sense of being able to wear clothes that were much smaller and having access to all of that, that too. But that period of my life didn't last very long, and I remember as I was like a young adult in, you know, in my early teens and sort of settling back into what was probably just my normal body, which wasn't a thin body, um, feeling like I'd somehow like lost this battle of wills and I'd somehow not mastered the art of having a body that was a respectable body in society, um, if that makes sense. And it, it's taken me a really, really long time to try and, unlearn that, like to try and let go of this goal that I probably had at some point, which was, oh, I know that I can be thin, so I'm gonna try and return to that teenage body again. And it'll probably happen at some point in the future if I just, you know, work, work hard enough. And it was, it was through really making sure that I engaged with content showed fat people, um, and you know, like the body positivity movement for, for all its faults has in some ways been really, really helpful for me. So, replacing the negative images with really positive ones and just making sure that a, I broaden my own scope of what is beautiful, for example, what is good and what is, um, you know, what wellness should mean has really helped me, I think, become a lot more accepting of where my, you know, where my body is and helped me break free of a cycle, I guess, of denial, of contrition of you know, self admonishment that just made me unhappy, but also just was terribly draining on the brain because I found that I filled up so much of my brain with ideas about what I was going to eat, that I sort of lost any enjoyment in eating. So the thing that's changed for me in terms of like how I eat is that previously, and I think for much of my life, cause I wasn't trusting what I felt like I wanted, what I desired, I would be like mentally trying to like problem solve something else that might fix that desire, but it could never, never be fixed.You know, it might be eating several different things as, and then realising that no, no, I'm still hungry. So like you go to the fridge and you get this one thing, and you're like, if I'd just eaten a slice of toast with some butter on it, that probably would've completely fixed that craving that I had.But instead, I ate four raspberries, a handful of nuts, a square of cheese, and it just gets very, very elaborate. And then, and you're sort of doing all this mental gymnastics that, um, for me just became a huge waste of intellectual effort. And I thought to myself, I'm just not prepared give food that bit of my brain anymore and that much time.I'd rather focus it on making delicious food that I enjoy to eat, that I enjoy preparing, that I want to share with other people. And also I'm not prepared to be hungry because if I am hungry, I'm thinking about food all the time. And I, you know, I find that I don't really, don't really have like much snacking type habits because I'm satisfied in a way that I don't think I'd previously been. And it was, that was really liberating for me. Just saying, ah, I'm gonna let, just let all that bit of my brain go, cuz let you know, life's too short for me to devote all this brain power to it and I've got other things I could be doing.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds as though letting go of that anxiety and fear and concern about food and, and not letting it take up as much space in your brain open things up for you is thatAmy: Oh yeah, definitely, I think so. Yeah, you know, it makes me want to say, for example, write, write about food. It makes me want to grow food, or talk to people about it without that sense of it being a problem that I need to resolve.Laura: Yeah.Amy: I do have a fat body and some people think that that's not okay. But I am grateful to live in the body that I live in and I haven't got a perfect reaction to the way in which fatness is perceived like far from it, but I have certainly become a lot more relaxed about other people's opinions about how my own body should look because cuz it's none of their business and it's certainly none of their business what I eat.Laura: Oh, I'm so excited by everything that you've just said there that, um, I'm trying to figure out where I want to dig deeper, and I think one thing that that stood out for me, and it's something that I kind of bump up against quite a lot in, in my clinical work and just through conversations with people who've read my books, is the, the idea that you alluded to where you've attained a thin body. Now in your case it was through, um, an illness and for other people it's through oftentimes disordered eating and the, the head space that is devoted to food being sort of 90% of your brain sometimes. And then being afforded some of the privilege that that confers, right, the thin privilege and then losing that privilege through our bodies changing as bodies are want to do. Right.Amy: Yeah.Laura: And, and then it sounds as though there was this kind of, um, enduring desire to return to that, to maybe return to that privilege. And I just wondered if you could speak, speak to, to that and, and how, you know, a lot of people talk about grieving within ideal or, you know, just having to navigate letting go of what we're told that weAmy: I think it's so hard cuz it's also for me, it's bound up in, in ageing a little bit as well. So I'm 44 now and like the point at which I was thin was like maybe two years between like 17 and 19. And I think it's somehow how you tell yourself that that was the one true you and like how you are supposed to be, even though rationally, I know that it took so much, um, sort of powers of delusion and control for me to be that way. It was never gonna be the same again. It's not something that I know, you know, I know that it's not something that I could just practically maintain, even if I attained it temporarily, and part of me thought, oh God, I don't wanna go through that again.You know, this idea of, because people do, I was thinking about this the other day about, there was a point in my life where some people close to me got very thin and I watched them be praised more than, I'd seen them be praised for anything else in their life. And that really disturbed me because, yeah I found it really disturbing and I also thought, I know that that's bullshit, so I'm not prepared to. I'm not prepared to sort of give that power, because that's one thing I can control. I can say I am not gonna reward people for losing weight. Like, it, it's tricky cuz you want, you want to be supportive of people who want their bodies to be particular ways and, and, I dunno what I'm trying to say here, but. Everyone should be able to be in control of what goes on in their body basically. That's what I think. Um, but I think disengaging from diet talk and disengaging from saying to people things like, oh, you've lost weight, or That is flattering, or talking about myself in derogatory ways has been. It's like a practice that I just need to keep on with because I think if I lose that I could very easily fall into a kind of self-loathing trap again, and I would never be thin again. But I would feel a lot worse about myself. Like it wouldn't matter how many diets I did, I would never be that thin again. I might, you know, and so it, yeah, to me, it feels like, you know, like a black hole that would just take all of my energy and give very little back. Laura: Yeah, and I think you spoke there too, the idea of, of body autonomy, and that's such an important piece of this conversation. I think that, you know, I would never want any individual who was pursuing weight loss, intentional weight loss to feel shamed about that. But it also, we don't exist in, in a vacuum and you know, I think slightly delusional if we think that it's entirely under our own volition this desire to be thinAmy: Oh yeah,Laura: And we're swimming through diet culture, which of course, as we know, and you spoke to there as well, is the nexus of ableism, ageism, patriarchy. White supremacy. You know, it's, it's just kind of a an easily identifiable way of naming all of these ways that we are oppressed.Amy: No, I think it's so interesting cause I was reflecting on how I was talking to somebody about how they wanted to lose weight ahead of a special occasion and they said, oh, you know, I just wanna look nice in the photos. And if you are fat, it's quite hard to hear that and think, ah, Do I mess up photos because I haven't become thin?Uh, you know, and, and I'm somehow unacceptable photographically to the world. But if I were thin, then um, I would look nice and it would be recorded that I once in my life look nice as a thin person in a photograph. And when you start interrogating that more, I think you've go gods this is a load of nonsense that it, but it's so hard to unlearn because it's just everywhere. And I think, yeah, like you say, if you are, you know, I'm lucky because I'm cisgendered, I'm white woman. You know, I've got blonde hair and blue eyes, some, some western beauty ideals. But I am ageing and I am fat. And I am single and all of those things society does not accept or think, you know, they think you, well, you should sort yourself out because you are almost like wasting your body on the world if, if you are gonna allow yourself to be in this way. And that's the way it could feel sometimes.Laura: That's such an interesting idea that you just presented this sense of, of wasting your body.Amy: Yeah. Like, why be fat when you could be better looking? Like, it feels like that that's, that's the kind of choice that, that, um, people think you're making, like this choice to be less attractive. Like why are you being less attractive for me when you could be more attractive to me , if that makes makes senseLaura: Hmm mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I think it's just, it speaks to how fucked up our cultural values are or where we put our values as a society on aesthetics, on appearance, on this outward socially constructed idea of beauty or, yeah, which bodies, which people hold value and, and which don't. And it's, yeah, like when you start to kind of tug at that a little bit, it, it become, it unravels pretty quickly. I don't know how we can defend these ideas.Amy: I don't, I remember like having a conversation with a friend where I was talking about how when my, uh, one of my grandparents died, I was given a thousand pounds, like, which was the money that they'd left in their will, and I spent some of it on a laser hair removal machine, and I remember saying to my friend, , oh yeah you know, I can't cope with having both hairy legs and being fat and you know,Laura: Hmm.Amy: Together, like that's, that's even, that's even worse. Like I can only deal with the kind of emotional armour I have to put up with on one thing without there being another bit of my body that other, that people are gonna be objectionable to, which is kind of cowardly if me, in a way that I felt I needed to do that, but it was almost like, I can't deal with having more things that people will find undesirable about me.Laura: No, I've definitely heard and felt, you know, similarly that, you know, well, I guess it speaks to how we can only, there's only so much that we can deal with as individuals, even when we're kind of well versed in, you know, even when we hold deeply feminist values and we are, you know, committed to body liberation, but there's only so much that we can do on our own there's only so much armour that we can, can continue to, to put up. And so I think for a number of folks, when we come to fat positivity, fat liberation, there is this sense that, okay, I can be fat. And I have to be beautiful. And I have to be young, and I have to be, I have to perform health. I have to, um, you know, in some other way exonerate myself.Amy: Yeah, I've certainly heard a lot about that. You know, like people saying, you know, uh, I'll choose a salad when I'm eating, with some people who feel like inhibited by what other people might think is okay for them to, I mean, I will eat what I want and I'm lucky, I think because the people who surround me, you know, wouldn't be pay that any attention whatsoever.And it must feel so horrible to feel like you've gotta perform this idea of like the perfect fat person who exercising all the time and proving all the time that they eat healthily and all of this kind of stuff. But if you reject those notions of, of healthy ness as we are sold it in like a capitalist society, which is very different really from I think what we would like to embrace as an idea of health then I think we would all be a lot better off.Laura: Mm. But I think what I was kind of searching for before and, and struggling to find was, okay say we accept that bodies change and our body weight tends to track in or trend in one direction, right? And, I think, you know, holding onto these other, you know, whether it's about body hair or beauty or fashion or, um, you know, the fucking cosmetic industrial complex, like what it fundamentally boils down to is safety and keeping ourselves safe in a world that does not value our existence.Amy: Yeah. And that's really tough, isn't it? Particularly I think when you look at how health, healthcare seems to be orientating around, I mean, has for a long time, I guess, but orientating around like this idea that some people deserve to be treated and some don't. I've just realised it's tricky for me to talk about, cause I work in healthcare. Um, I feel like basically if fat phobia becomes, I mean, it's hugely prevalent anyway, but if it also becomes sort of state legislated as an unacceptable practice through laws and guidance and procedures and policies that are enacted through work, through healthcare education and so on. That's, it's just gonna make the lives of fat people so much worse. And it certainly won't make anyone thinner. Laura: Yeah.Amy: you know, if we as a country are serious about mental wellbeing, then we can't be going down that road.Laura: Yeah. I think what you're speaking to is this sort of neoliberal idea of personal responsibility and, and how we are all, You know, it's our duty as good citizens to control and restrict our bodies and to, you know, it's our job, it's our responsibility to stay thin for the good of the country and, you know, this is what is expected of us.Amy: Yeah, so that we are more productive and that we cost the state less and all of this, all of this business.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. something I was thinking about, well, I have, I guess, a confession to make that. When I first started reading your essay, when it got delivered to my inbox, I started reading it and I was really skeptical at first I was a little bit like, okay, where's this going? And then I'm gonna read this back to you. I read the line, “As a fat woman, I can feel inhibited talking about food because the gaze from which I imagine and know I'm perceived is one of greed as though I can't be trusted with my own appetites. Because of my fatness, I'm disallowed hunger. I refuse to be disallowed craving.” Sorry, I'm butchering your writing there. But that changed everything for me because, and I realised I was reflecting on it and I was like, up until that point, I assumed you were a thin person talking about your cravings.Amy: Oh, that's so interesting.Laura: And I think I'm doing this a disservice by assuming that they would've put some sort of like, I don't know. I'm not gonna like name tag anyone here, but you know, there was a very specific image that came to my mind of who you were until I read that line and I was so relieved because I felt like I could trust you. I felt like I could trust what you were saying.Amy: That's so interesting because I was really unsure about putting the fact that I'm fat in the piece. Um, for a couple of reasons. One, because. I'm still dealing with like the internalised shame of saying out loud to the people that I'm fat as though they haven't already noticed.It's almost like, you know, it's like, oh yeah of course other people are gonna see me as a fat person, but you know, sometimes in my head, that's not part of my self-image. I dunno what my self-image is, but, it's maybe my self-image isn't as embodied as it needs to be somehow. Um, so every time I say I'm fat, I'm like practicing becoming comfortable with that, owning it and, and using it as a term that is, is a neutral term. It's like a statement of fact. So like not in the space of, I know, and this is, you know, I'm supportive of this, but like trying to claim it as a word of pride. Just more in the space of this, this is a word we can use and it's okay. It's not gonna hurt me and I'm not gonna hurt myself by using it. So I wondered about that. And then I wondered also about writing about, you know, cravings and pleasure and colour and keeping things in this like very sort of sensory saturated, um, place, which is where the essay is predominantly. I wondered whether it had a place in there, but I realised that. It was so fundamental. The idea of having a fat body was so fundamental to almost like the, the cheekiness I felt in deciding to write about cravings and saying, I'm going to have fun writing about cravings. And I'm not going to be looking over my shoulder for people who think that I am wrong,Laura: yeah.Amy: So, um, it's really interesting that it's something that, it made the essay more persuasive for you. That's quite interesting for me to hear. Laura: It felt subversive. It felt like a fuck you, it felt like, I'm here and I'm owning this and you can't take this away from me. Um, and that, that really sealed, sealed the deal for me, and then I went back and reread it through that lens. And , I'm not trying to say like, you have to be fat to be trustworthy, or you have to be fat. Yeah, to take pleasure in food. But it just, it just shed a different light on it for me. So I was really, um, I think grateful to you for, for disclosing that because there was no picture of you. I didn't know what you looked like untilAmy: I mean, I feel like I totally get it because I, I often start out reading from a point of pure skepticism, particularly personal essays where, you know, say it's, um, somebody writing about, um, how I'm only 28 and I've just bought my first house. And then you get to the end and it's like, oh yeah, it's because you got 30 grand from your parents. And you got to live in granny's attic for two years. So this kind of disclosure is important for credibility of what people say. So I'm, I'm totally with you.Laura: Yeah. Well, there's something else that I wanted to ask you about. Sort of coming back to this essay. At the beginning you talked about food being exciting, being a place for creativity and connection, and I just wondered if you could. This is obviously what you explore in the essay and I'll link to it.It's a paywall piece, I believe, but it's like, if you don't have a subscription to this, what are you doing with your life? Honestly, But I just wondered if you could kind of Yeah. Try and sum up the feeling or feelings that you were connecting to and expressing through food. Subsequently through this essay.Amy: So I live alone. I think, I think I write about this in the essay a little bit. I live alone and I think when you live alone, you're often sort of encouraged. You are not encouraged, but there's a sort of sense that if you are just one person, food doesn't need to have a sense of occasion to. Like you, it's more functional and it's just me so I'll just get this, I'll just eat this ready meal or I don't bother. If it's just me, I'll just have beans on toast or, or whatever. I love, I love beansLaura: I was gonna say, that's a fine food. Don't knock me.Amy: food. And, and you know, I have a very elaborate beans on toast method of course that I cherish. I do want to challenge that and sort of work against it and think what is something that I can make for myself that really sort of vibrates with its meal just for one type intention and, you know, and things like that might be having a steak that is cooked just the way that I want it, that gets the flat all full of smoke and that I can eat with, um, you know, some oven chips and it feels very, very decadent. But I'm not impressing anyone. I'm just going for it on myself. And I think, giving yourself a, a, like a treat, a special treat, and paying attention to yourself as somebody who is deserving of, of pleasure, of decadence, of nourishment, um, even when nobody is looking or there's nobody to share it with.That that is something that's always behind how I think about food. And sometimes, you know, it, it might be like spending hours making a chicken stock and making sure that I've got some soup for myself during the week, or.Laura: Yeah.Amy: or standing over the sink eating a pear, uh, which is something that I write about in that essay and something that I did last night, I sliced it up and then there was just juice everywhere and I was just really enjoying this moment of being alone with my pear. But then there's also doing that for other people and the conversations that that might generate across a dinner table and how, for some reason, at a dinner table, I always feel at home and ready to get to know somebody better. That's really important for me and how I think about what food, the role food is playing in my life.Laura: I think there's something so interesting that I'd never really considered before about the narrative of what it means to, you know, the cooking for one. And yeah, how it's framed as being just really perfunctory and something that you have to do and, and that it's, there's no sense of occasion and the extension of that is that the only reason to kind of make, um, a song and dance about cooking, about preparing food, about sitting down to enjoy a meal is if you're doing it for someone else, but in, but very specifically in the context of a relationship, right? Like,Amy: Yeah, it's all bound in with like romantic love, I think. And it, I kind of write a little bit about this in, in my book. So I've got a book coming out in April called Arrangements in Blue, which explores living in the absence of romantic love.Laura: Hmm.Amy: And one of the things I kind of say in there is, you know, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that making a six pan five hour meal for one person is a radical act, but it kinda is cuz it's kind of saying, you are, you are, you are worth this effort.And if I didn't make any effort for the meals for which I prepare for myself, So many things would be off the menu for me. I'd be like living quite a grueling life. So, it's really important that I kind of push the boat out for myself basically.Laura: Yeah, yeah. No, I love, I love that idea a lot that, you know, in a, and I don't mean this in a like, Bubble bath self-care way, but in a, like, I am actually gonna invest in myself because I deserve the pleasure, the joy, the nourishment, um, the fulfillment that, that comes from not just the process and the act of cooking, but eating and enjoying this food as well.At the end of every episode, I ask my guests, Who or what is nourishing them? So what, what has been nourishing you in this season of, well, shit winter, January season, but also I am gearing up to, to publish a book and.Amy: Yeah, I feel very insecure. It's horrible. It's like I can't tell whether I'm waiting for something great to happen or waiting for something terrible to happen, but it's just this prolonged feeling of anticipation I'm not great with. So I think the, who's nourishing me, so my two cats, Minnie and Bam Bam, have been absolute stalwarts, always there for the scriptures and, you know, stupid faces. And. You know, just general demands on my attention, which is good distraction. My best pal Becky, who has been listening to me have every single neurotic thought that you can havepre publication and probably I should put a special mention in for my agent Ang who, um, has also had to deal with the kind of tremors of, uh, pre-publication. So they've, they've all been fantastic and I, I owe them a lot for their kindness and, and friendship.Laura: I'm glad that you have people caring for you during what is, I know a very, very anxious and yeah, I know that, that pre-publicationAmy: Yeah,Laura: Like black hole. It's a lot. Okay. And very, very last question is what are you snacking on at the moment? So, it can be anything from a literal snack that you are enjoying eating all the way through to something you're watching or reading or listening to. So what do you have for us?Amy: So, I finished reading a couple of weeks ago a book called Kick the Latch by Kathryn Scanlan and is so amazing. It's a kind of novel made out of conversations that, uh, Kathryn had with a horse trainer called Sonya. It sounds like a strange premise for a book, but it's like a, a jolt to the brain.Laura: Ooh, I need one of those.Amy: Yeah, it's really, really fantastic. It's published by Don BooksLaura: Okay. I will link to that in the show notes. I'm very intrigued by that. Um, okay. My thing is definitely not as lofty. So, I, this is an Instagram account that has kind of blown up recently. Uh, you might have come across it. So the person is Lisa Timmons, and she, I think, Or they're a comedian.And, they basically they make these reels where they do a voiceover of celebrities like Jennifer Aniston, Gwyneth Paltrow, like cooking in the kitchen, and then just like voiceover with like, I'm such a privileged fucking white lady and just that, it's just always so on point and like I was just watching one before we got on the call and it was basically, it was Gwyneth Paltrow chopping up some salad and like it probably had like, did not have enough calories to sustain a human being. And the voiceover was basically just like, you know, like, and uh, the idea here is to get as few calories as possible so that you have brittle fucking bones as you grow older.It's just like, yeah, that is what happens when you don't eat enough food. So that's my recommendation, Lisa Timmons Instagram. It's very funny if you, especially if you are navigating, unlearning and unsubscribing diet culture. I will link to that in the show notes. So you briefly mentioned you have a book coming out in April.You wanna tell us, um, how we can pre-order that and where people can find more of your work?Amy: So if you go onto the Penguin website, which I think is penguin.co uk, you can find my book Arrangements in Blue. It's published by Jonathan Cape and there were lots of pre-order links on there. And you can also follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Laura: We will make sure that the links are right there for anyone who wants to go and pre-order Amy's book. And I think you have some more of your writing on your website as well, which I'll link to. And your piece In Praise of Cravings, which we've talked a lot about. I'll link to that in the show notes.Amy, it was such a delight to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here, and I can't wait to read your new book.Amy: Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.OUTROLaura: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of The Antidote, Amy and Grace connect with standup comedian, writer and actor Jordan Carlos in a live conversation from this year's New York Comedy Festival. Jordan joins Amy and Grace in a new segment called The Wellness Shot, where we give advice to our audience and listeners to help solve their real-life issues. Amy and Grace also share their bummer news of the week –  Odell Beckham Jr. was recently removed from an American Airlines flight, and an antibiotic shortage. They also share their antidotes: Broadway and a “hot girl walk.”  Do you have a favorite antidote, or need an antidote suggestion? A question for Grace and Amy, or something you loved that Amy, Grace or one of their guests has said on the podcast? Share a message with The Antidote team: https://mpr.tfaforms.net/111 or tag us on Instagram with the hashtag #ThatsMyAntidote, or leave us a message on our hotline at 833-684-3683. FULL TRANSCRIPT Amy The world is a dumpster fire. I'm Amy. Grace And I'm Grace. Amy And we want to f---ing help. Grace We're comedy writers in Los Angeles. And as a reflex to the madness on the news, we're keeping a positive but opinionated. Amy We talk about cultural moments we love. Grace Talk to people we adore.  Amy Crushes we have. Grace And self-care we stan. Amy During these trying times, we all need a show that focuses on joy. Grace This is The Antidote. Amy Pow, pow, pow. Grace Hi, everybody. Welcome, welcome, welcome. We are back. I'm a little crazy today. We finished shooting last night at 1 a.m. and here I am in the morning and I feel good. I still haven't seen my friend. Hi, amy Amy Yay hi. And also congratulations to my friend for finishing her shoot. Like, literally, I feel like you've lived in New York for nine years. Grace I know I do too. I feel like it's been 20,000 years. I was young when I left. I'm old now. Amy But at the end of it you have a beautiful, magnificent, funny and hilarious show to show the world and hopefully we will be seeing it soon. Grace Yeah, one that my wonderful friend Amy directed two episodes of. So, so, you know, stay tuned for the Amy and Grace collabo with Michelle Buteau and other wonderful people. Amy Yes, that's right. Grace Girl, girl, did you hear about this Good Morning America thing? Amy The Good Morning America scandal is all over my timeline. My thing about the Twitter feed this past week is that I had to come in contact with two people who I did not know who they were. And now I know everything about them. And I'm talking about T.J. Holmes. Yeah. And Amy Robach. Yeah. I'm like, who are y'all? Grace Yeah, I had no idea who they were either. I mean, the T.J. Holmes guy looked a little bit more familiar to me, but I was like, oh, I've maybe seen that before. But that woman, she she looks like a copy of so many other women I've seen on tv. Amy You know, so crazy to me because both of them are married in other relationships. T.J. Holmes, a man I didn't know existed, you know, posted like a tribute to his wife, man, a year ago, like less than a year ago, posted a tribute to his wife about how I tried to make her leave and she won't leave because she's got a black superwoman energy, whatever the f---. And then literally he's out here touching a white woman's ass. And I'm like, I have to say grace. So the there's this woman on Twitter. I don't know her personally, but her handle is batty, ma'am. So that's B.A. YMCA lady. And she has, like, just a little mini thread called Men Will Embarrass You. And this week's Men Men Will Embarrass You is this man, T.J. Holmes, given this tribute to his f---ing wife? And I got to say, lady, I don't know you, but it's time to leave. Grace You got to. Amy Do you need me to show up, need me- to the window? Just lift it up. Help you down. You can Rapunzel throw out your hair and I'll just drag you. Right? Like, I don't know how we. Grace No. Amy Make you leave, but you got to go, girl. Grace It is so embarrassing. And the thing is that they weren't even trying to hide it. They were not being discreet. Nice. And they know they're on TV. I don't know what they thought. That they could just blend in like that. They were just in a bar on the street, grabbing ass, walking through there, walking through the park hand-in-hand. Like at least have the respect for your spouses that have you off again, because I guess they're both separated, right? Amy I don't know if they were. I mean, that feels like new information was like something that was like we were separated. Like, it doesn't I'm like where they. Like, we'll never know. Grace But even like you still have a marital contract, at least don't like be out in the open, go in the hotel room or whatever. You know, don't be just out in the open grabbing booties and stuff, you know. Amy And also grabbing groceries. They were like doing like daily routine things. Like they're a couple when people on TV back to normal, I'm like, y'all, you have faces. People recognize you're in like a million or so homes across America. Every morning y'all are on TV. You can't just be out here acting like you're f---ing Tam and Pam. But you know Pam, like, I don't know, like in Milwaukee who nobody's paying attention to. Like you, literally. I don't know if I would call them famous, but they are you know, they're known. Grace And that's the thing. Like you get the privilege of having millions of dollars and being famous and getting free sh-- because you are on GMA. So you have to accept what comes with that privilege, which is that people know who you are and you can't cheat out in the open. Yeah, probably any Tom, Dick and Harry or whatever. You could go to one city over and you could be acting like y'all married each other. But ya'll can. Amy Also the audacity to cheat in the morning, because that's the other thing. They're Good Morning America. And then they were out in the open in the morning and I'm like, it just was me. I was like, How do we doing out in the morning doing chores? But anyway, I do think that it reminds me of a conversation we had with Jordan. We had a lot of questions about relationships, about being far our guest that's coming up this episode, Jordan Carlos, who did our live show from Brooklyn, New York, which was a part of the New York Comedy Festival on November. BR Well, we had a few questions about relationships, so stick around to hear that in a new segment we created called The Wellness Shop. And if you're in a relationship now, hug your partner, set them free. But don't be doing this sh--. Grace Don't be embarrassed and ask the men or women. Anyway, we wouldn't need the antidote if we didn't have the bummer news. Amy Starting now, top of the hour. Bummer. News of the week. Our first topic is that athlete and you know, hottie with the body. Odell Beckham Jr has been removed from an American Airlines flight recently over, quote unquote, concerns for his health while sleeping with a blanket over his face. Those who don't know Odell Beckham Jr is a very well known wide receiver in the NFL. He catches ball. He's a free agent right now. Yes. He catches balls for a living. Well done. Great for for sports. But he's like a free agent right now, like people trying to court him because, like, you know, he's good at it. Yeah, he's very good. And it's not just because of his looks. Why am I like, oh, I don't know. Well, Beckham, Junior, what a hottie. But anyway, I only know about him because a a few comedians a few years back said some weird sh-- about him. And then part B, there used to be a billboard of him in an underwear ad on La Cienega, and I'd pass it every time I was going to work, and I was like, Who's that? So I learned about sports that day. But anyway, Odell Beckham has a tradition of draping a blanket over his face during long flights so he can sleep, according to his attorney. And this time, while asleep, the flight returned to the gate and Beckham was asked to leave the flight as he had not buckled his seatbelt at the time due to being asleep. Even after offering to buckle his seatbelt, the flight attendant said it's too late now to exit or the entire aircraft would be deplaned in the airports. Report, they claim, quote, he appeared to be coming in and out of consciousness, end quote. And we're concerned he was, quote, seriously ill, end quote, leading to the plane, returning to the gate after the aircraft was deplaned. Beckham left the plane without incident because, you know, he ig but he did tweet that quote, Never in my life have I experienced what just happened to me. I've seen it all. Grace This seems weird to me. I don't know this. I don't know how this happened. Like he was sleepy and ask somebody with a very sleepy friend, Amy, and she's talking about me. She can sleep anywhere. And there have been times where I'm like, Wake up, Amy, wake up. You got to go like, Oh, and it's not like it's sometimes it just doesn't happen. Some people sleep hard and it doesn't feel like a flight attendant would have never seen that before. And then once he said he would buckle a seatbelt, like, you're going to have to deplane everybody. He was nice because I'd be like, literally, you woke me up to buckle my seatbelt and I'm doing it. So like, why can't I go see a Black man? Amy He had to be nice. Like, that's the thing that makes me upset and that's what it's like. He couldn't be like, what? For too long? It's like he's a famous black man and knows it, and he's like, I got to get off this plane. Like, you can't raise a stink. Grace Yeah, it's weird. I have this story. Something seems off. I and I feel bad because I'm sure that was so embarrassing, you know? And then it becomes a whole news story. And, yes, he should have buckled the seatbelt. Yes. But when he offers to buckle it, they should have just let the plane go without incident. Like what was getting him off the flight? Like it wasn't going to delay it more or less. Like you could have just let him stay. So. Boo American Airlines once again. Amy Oh, my God. They're the same airline that f---ed up my luggage and wouldn't replace it. So, American Airlines, you're on notice. I know that's not the only bit of bummer news this week. The other thing that I read about is that RSV, you know, that respiratory syncytial virus. I don't even know how to say that middle word. That's why we abbreviating it. RSV, a virus particularly common among children, is on the rise and may be resulting in an antibiotics shortage. So I read that amoxicillin, one of the most common antibiotics for children, is facing a shortage because despite RSV being a viral infection, amoxicillin is often prescribed as secondary protection for underlying bacterial infections that arise during having RSV. So a doctor in USA Today said quote, For example, in addition to RSV, a child may also have developed an ear infection or pneumonia which could be treated with amoxicillin. And in most people, RSV just causes mild cold like symptoms. But in children, the elderly, in immunocompromised it can be very severe. So now that we're back into a flu season, now that we're back into a COVID surge, our issues are back to being near capacity and we are having a problem with this. So for me, I'm like, the reason this is a bummer to me is like of all the COVID shortages, we had toilet paper that was out, we had restaurant menus, they digital now. We didn't have hand sanitizer. This one really matters. Like, can we figure out how to get the kids their drugs?   Grace I really hope that Congress, useless congress tries to step in and do something.   Amy I feel you because it reminds you of the baby formula shortage that we talked about a few months back on another episode where it was just kind of like, Wait, we really out here? Just be like, babies, y'all good? Like we have to. The future of the country.   Grace I like that. Some say they're more important than the rest of us. You know, first of all, we already ruined the planet for them. We've already like we don't have a good planet to give them the you know, we flooded their schools with guns, so they now have to to go to school and be like father like I make at home today. So at the very least, can we just get the baby some antibiotics, whatever they need to do? Because, you know, there's nothing fatter than like a sick baby, you know?   Amy Yeah, well, I don't know how science works, but I'm thinking about these babies.   Grace Okay, let's get into this antidote, though.   Amy So this is a segment where we tell you about the culture we consumed and things we did this week that made us feel better about the bummer news. What was your antidote this week, Grace?   Grace Broadway, baby.   Amy Oh, hello. Yes. Hello, my darlin. Hello, my baby. Hello. my honey.   Grace Child, so in my previous life, I was a theater actor. So there is just something uniquely beautiful about going to see live theater. And I just I've been in L.A. for a while, and I'm sure there's great productions in Los Angeles as well. People keep telling me, but when you've had Broadway, you know, it's really hard to even imagine going to see live theater anywhere else. So I lived in New York for a very, very long time, and I actually was supposed to go to Mexico over the Thanksgiving holiday. I don't know what I was thinking, like thinking that I, in the middle of production would go to Mexico. Wait, why? Yeah, I was going to go there for the long weekend, so I decided to cancel that trip, and instead I decided to go see two Broadway shows because I've been so busy at work that I haven't gotten a chance to see a lot of Broadway. So I saw Death of a Salesman.   Amy Oh, nice.   Grace Which is like Black Death of a Salesman. Which is like it should be black because it's such a black story. And Wendell Pierce, he was in like, oh, right above. Like, you know, there is a little bit of a little hiccup, Eddie. And it was so fun because they were smoking on stage. And then the fire alarm went off and they stopped and that it was just like, ooh, peek behind the fourth wall. And there's just like had to get off stage of the they it took about 15 minutes to resolve and then they came back wow. And they started the scene all over again like f---ing pros that they are. But yeah.   Amy They started the scene all over. That's great. And then they just weren't smoking.   Grace Yeah. Yeah. And so it was him. It was Sharon Clark who was also incredible, who played his wife. Then there's a guy named Chris Davis who played Biff and McKinley Belcher as happy. And I cannot forget Andre de Shields was in it as well, who is just a magician? Yes.   Amy And he was The Wiz in The Wiz. Holy sh--.   Grace He was the Wiz in the Wiz.    Amy Oh, I knew. I knew that face.   Grace It was incredible. And like, I wept because I thought about all the black men that were alive back then and the lack of opportunity that they had. So it really hit different when you see a black man going to like this white guy to like beg for a job and that he just couldn't make it work with his family. And I know Arthur Miller wrote it, but it was just it just really hit when you think about our ancestors and what they'd been through. Come on. And so and it was just like such a cathartic weeping. And I was just like, thank you for your sacrifice so that this generation could have what they have. So that was the Friday after Thanksgiving and then the Saturday after Thanksgiving, I saw a show called Six.   Amy Oh, my gosh. Tell me about six.   Grace So Six is about Henry the eighth's six different wives.   Amy Oh, that's cool.   Grace So it's like a concert almost. Mm hmm. So basically, the premise of the show is they're just like, who had it worse? Like a six women. So.   Amy Girl, girl, girl. You all had it pretty sh---y.   Grace Yeah, you all had a pretty sh---y cause that guy was that great. So they each get their own song, and all of them just had incredible voices, but in different ways, and they were just singing down.   Amy It's coming to L.A. just so you know. Six is coming to L.A..   Grace I mean, I would see it again. It was so fun. And then it was also short. It was like 80 minutes, no intermission.   Amy Oh, cute. I like it quick.   Grace Yeah, I like it quick. I'm a half hours high, bitch, you know what I'm saying? And they were just so good. Like, you know, you sometimes you got to go to Broadway to hear real ass voices, you know, like there are singers like Beyonce, say, Adele and like Jasmine Sullivan. You know, we have yes, we have girls that can sing them down. Yeah, but.   Amy Broadway is a different type of vocality.   Grace Yeah. Yeah. But it's genuinely great to see it and to know that it was live and they were just incredible. So that was my antidote. Broadway, baby. So what was your antidote this week, Amy?   Amy Well, you know, a few weeks back, we had a guest on a show named Ashley Blaine Feathers and Jenkins. And I literally have been thinking about the fact that she said you should go on a hot girl, walk for weeks. And I love to walk. I love to walk around my neighborhood. I love to take a stroll. I love to take an urban hike. Urban hike means you're walking through the city.   Grace Yes. She doesn't like a regular hike.   Amy And that's my sh--. I don't like a real hike. Grace knows this. I will do a hike, but I won't repeat a hike. And so this week, like, I've been traveling so much, I'm so tired, I'm still jetlagged from going to India. And so I decided that I was going to walk every day for exercise. And that fell apart real quick because I said, haha you thought and it started raining every morning and so I couldn't walk. But before the day it rains I went for a hiker walk. And the reason why this walk was a hardcore walk to me is because I made a point to walk with a smile on my face, which is really silly. But I was like, I've like really I've been so stressed. And I was like, the corners of my mouth are hurting. Like there was a day where I was like, What's wrong with the corner of my mouth? And I realized I'm actually frowning and I'm like, Oh, f--- this. This is how you get wrinkles. And B, I just think it's stress. It's just like exhaustion and stress and travel and all the things. So I went on this walk and I was like, I'm going to take this walking, I'm gonna smile. And I was listening to this woo woo book while I was walking and just smiling while I'm on my on my little stroll. And I walked all the way up to my viewpoint. There was like a beautiful view above my neighborhood where you can just see, like, west l.a. Like, spread out before your eyes. And I walked all the way up there, and there were some men up there who were, like, just, like, chillin, like, because there's also, like, a sports area. So maybe they're about to play some sports. BELL But at any rate, I stopped up there and I was like, I happen to be a hetero female who's attracted to men. So I saw these men and they were good looking and I was like, Here I am with my little smile on my face up here being a hot girl. And I was like, I didn't interact with them. I was like, they could be, you know, terrible. So I was like, I'm not going to interact with them, but I at least got to just, like, be cute and walk past them like athletic men and then continue on the walk. And I was like, this was a hot girl walk. So I started my day. That day feels so good. And I did the silliest thing. I sent like a video of one of my friends being like, I'm going to walk every day this week. I felt so good. And then the next morning it rains. And I think on video being like, I am walking today, bitch.   Grace How come you didn't send me that video? Who's this bitch? Just sell it. Send a video. That's what I'm saying. Just cause I'm gone. Just because I'm in New York City. This is the reason why I got to get back to L.A.. All my friends are forgetting me that.   Amy I'm like, I can't-   Grace My phone still works. So why.   Amy I can't bother Grace, she's on set. I can't just send her this video of me being like, I love walks. She would have been like bitch I've been up since 3 a.m.   Grace Yes, I would love to get that video. Brighten my day for you that I'd be an antidote. So that's what you did.   Amy Yes. Well, if you guys tried any of our antidotes at home, share them with us using the hashtag. That's my antidote. Or leave us a voicemail at 8336, 8436, eight three. Stay tuned. You'll hear more from our live show right after this break.   Grace Our guest today ain't new to this comedy. You know, he is a stand up comedian and actor who just finished costarring and writing on the first season of Freeform's. Everything's Trash with Phoebe Robinson. He co-hosts WNYC Adulting podcast with our friend in Queens, Michelle Buteau. He has also written for HBO Divorce, written and performed for Comedy Central's The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore and Recipes First Wives Club. Please welcome the amazing Jordan Carlos.   Jordan Carlos Good knees, good knees. That's what it's all about. And I feel sorry for the people standing in the back.   Amy No, don't apologize.   Jordan Carlos All right. How's it going? Brooklyn. How we doing? Yeah, I'd like to. I'd like to applaud the people that came early over here. Look at this man. It's modest, but so smug. So smug. Got the good seats. Got the good. Good. Hello, love. Gosh, it's just so good to be here. Surrounded by this black excellence on stage.   Grace I hope you're including yourself upon that number that.   Amy She worked with Jordan this week. He's being very humble. He is an amazing actor and so, so funny. And I got to direct him this week. And I got to tell you, I was a tyrant and he handled it well.   Jordan Carlos Yeah, yeah. What have you. What if I said you were she was in one of those, like, elevated seats, right? Like with a crane. But you were you.   Grace She does like to beat people.   Jordan Carlos She was in this really like, official jumpsuit. You are the official ass jump director. She's like, is she directing Apocalypse Now? Like what?   Amy That is right. I need people to know that I came to work.   Jordan Carlos Work it, but you were great. And I was like, there was one little small scene. Hey, everybody, welcome. You know, if you don't know anything about Hollywood, this is how it works. This is how it works. So you have to be an actor has to be directed, right, to do what they're supposed to do, my dumb ass. I didn't get out of the way. Right? I was like, you're like talking. You say your line and you walk the f--- off. Got it. But I just stayed in the studio, you know?   Amy I can see you. That was. That was my fault. That was my.   Jordan Carlos You know what? It's no one's fault.   Amy You're right. It's Hollywood. It's Hollywood.   Jordan Carlos It's Hollywood. Yeah, well, I had to be here.   Amy Yeah. Thank you so much for coming. It means so much to us. And we're both jointly obsessed with you, as are a lot of people in this audience.   Jordan Carlos So that's very sweet.   Amy Yes. You are the co-host of WNYC, his podcast Adulting, where you provide real life advice. And the quote reads with a heaping portion of hilarity topped with a dollop of truth.   Jordan Carlos Who wrote that.   Amy Yes. I mean, I assume it was you.   Jordan Carlos I swear to God I did not write that.   Amy Okay. Well, Michelle,.   Jordan Carlos In a showing of earnestness. And just like a missed. Misting of your heart.   Amy Yeah, well, as the audience entered tonight, we asked them to write down some questions that the three of us will give real life advice to help solve.   Grace Yeah.   Jordan Carlos I am not an expert. I do love how this guy's arms crossed when you're in the front row and non-verbal. F--- you to start the whole thing. And don't blame me. Don't say it's cold.   Amy No, we read the energy.   Jordan Carlos I do. This guy has Roman emperor energy.   Amy We got to work harder to win your love. don't worry.   Jordan Carlos Come and just relax. So everybody just open up your butthole. We're going to.   Amy Everyone release the anus, and let's just answer a couple of what we got. So first up, first up, and if you some people ask these questions, it might be out getting a drink. But if you are here and this is your question, just give us a little cheer. This first one is I was just offered my dream job in L.A., but my partner doesn't want to leave Brooklyn. Oh. How do you find balance between sacrificing and settling?   Grace Leave him.   Jordan Carlos Wow.   Amy Settling.   Grace Leave him. Drop him off leave him.   Jordan Carlos If you have your dream job. I don't know how how long you've been going out with this person, but if you have your dream job, you will work it out with that person. If relationships are all about like, you know, I've been married for 15 years and if you're married 15. Yeah, I know. Impressive. Impressive.   Amy Wow. Wow, it is 15. Yeah.    Grace Came out the womb married.   Jordan Carlos Came out, in some cultures, that's what we do. Yeah. I think what it is all about, what it's all about is, like, just kind of like figuring out that you want to be in it and you want to be in it every day and not leaving it to chance. Then you will remain in it. If this person like lets you go, not lets you go, go do your thing. Yeah. And see where the chips fall. But make sure that you keep a line and a tethered to that person and make sure that they're a part of it and make sure that you're honest with them about what's going on. You if you like it, if you don't, if you regret it, if not, if you want to stay in it. If you don't, you know what I'm saying? Like you might go out there and figure out that your dream job wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Oh, it's time to come back. Oh, no. But you know who will be in your corner every step of the way? Brooklyn boy. Also, you didn't talk about the dark side of the f---ing person that.   Grace That is something that you do need to know.   Amy She did say settling. So it makes me think that the D is medium to small.   Jordan Carlos Is it is it shmedium? Is it like a short medium?   Grace I'm sorry, I, I mean, my resting advice is I was like, leave you. Yeah. No, but I mean, I do think it's like, first of all, you do need to know, like, how long, like, they've been together and like how deep you are in. And there are some bitches that are career bitches like myself, and there are some girls that, you know, prioritize love and relationships. And you just have to be honest about which type of girl you are, you know.   Jordan Carlos Truly truly.   Amy Yeah, that's really good advice.   Jordan Carlos I know what kind of girl I am and.   Grace I'd like to hear it.   Jordan Carlos It's like we're going to. I'm like, if I can make it happen and split myself in half, I will do it because it's worth it. Yeah. Because I feel like it's just Jordan. Cause I'm just saying. I'm just saying you. You may be remembered on this planet for the things that you do and and and make your mark artistically, creatively, in business. But if you have a love that that respect, you hold on to God.   Amy Did you write From scratch on Netflix? That is beautiful.   Grace Convict me, Jordan.   Amy That is beautiful. Wait, I got to move on to the next question. You want the next question? Yes. So question and again, give a little woo. If it's your question, I want to expand my circle and become one of those people who can get dropped into a party and befriend anyone. But it's not really in my nature. Hashtag introvert. What should I do?   Grace Oh.   Jordan Carlos The extroverted introvert?   Amy That's me. You. I'm an introvert.   Jordan Carlos You're an introvert?   Amy I'm. I'm such people would never guess because I'm like, loud and talkative. But when I get home types, how we're off. Yeah, like, I get home and I just like, right. I literally am a secret introvert. I'm such an introvert. When the pandemic, when everything shut down, I was like, This is nice. I don't have to go anywhere. I was fine. I was like, I like it in here.   Grace I was just.   Jordan Carlos Like, if that is your if that's your jam, you need to host more parties.   Amy Yeah. Oh, you're the middle of the party. If it's your party.   Jordan Carlos To be the host or, you know, better be The Great Gatsby. Have the party. Don't show up.   Grace You will be remembered forever. Very, very good advice.   Amy Yes. Okay. Next question. I'm going to do four because these are good. This one I love the most. Give a little woot if it's yours. I need money, but I don't like working.   Grace Gets you somebody rich to marry one.   Jordan Carlos That's the end of it. I need money, but they don't like their wellness shot.   Amy What's the thing that makes them feel better?   Jordan Carlos I need money, but I don't like working. That's. That sounds like the beginning of a beautiful traps to focus on, like working and.   Grace Get some rich, rich rich.   Amy Do you agree with Grace? Just get someone rich. Is that the answer.   Jordan Carlos I would say get someone rich or understand how to manipulate the market.   Grace Or be like a Fyre Festival person.   Amy Oh yes.   Grace Start a scam. Scam somebody.   Amy But scamming is work.   Grace It is work it.   Amy That guy who started we work. What a scam. But he was working. Yeah. He had to take meetings and get investors. Scamming is work.   Grace It means you have to send out like lots of emails about being a price or something.   Jordan Carlos Mostly it's just like the laws that keep scammers back. Same, whatever. Right.   Grace Yeah. So it feels like just get a rich boo.   Amy I think that might be the answer. If you like money and don't like working, get a rich bill. Yeah.   Jordan Carlos I can't. I really can't help you there because this face, I got to work, you know?   Grace No. And a very handsome face.   Amy Everyone is someone's cup of tea. You just haven't found the rich woman.   Jordan Carlos You sound like my mom. Like the African proverb. There is a lid for every pot.   Amy The lion. The lion cares for the antelope. Okay. All right. Last question for you guys. Okay. Oh, this. Oh. How do you deal with the loneliness that comes with your friends all being in relationships? Oh, wow. These are deep guys. I love these questions.   Jordan Carlos Damn. Damn. How do you deal with the loneliness that comes from your friends all being in relationships? Good question. Great question.   Amy Oh, my God.   Jordan Carlos On a long enough timeline, those relationships will end. And.   Amy Rooting for the failure.   Jordan Carlos No, I'm just. I'm.   Grace Well, 50% of marriages do end in divorce.   Jordan Carlos The other 50 percent end in death. Now. I think this like, you know, those rom coms where it's like somebody tries to stop a wedding, like they're like, I got to stop this. It's like trying to stop a bus with your face. Like, don't do it. Don't stop Americans. Marriage will stop by itself. Okay? I've seen it happen way too many times. I've seen it happen way too many times. Right? Yes. I feel like this like like do not become discouraged by that. You know, let your friends live their life. Yeah. They're going they're out doing what they're doing. You should be doing what you're like, what you're doing. Do the things that they can't.   Amy Oh, make them jel, jel.   Jordan Carlos Make them jealous. Go to a bar, you know, go to a rock climbing thing in like five in the afternoon.   Amy Yeah. I'm saying you're like, I took a nap in the middle of the day because I don't have kids.   Jordan Carlos Mean we see everything on Netflix like you're in a relationship, you have to like. Check with the person that yeah.   Jordan Carlos I watch the show so now. White Lotus was supposed to be ours and.   Amy Relish the fact that you're single. It's better out there.   Jordan Carlos Enjoy it.   Grace Well, I would say that I think that it's not.   Jordan Carlos It's all, it's all. You know what I feel like it's grass is greener on the other side. It's all about what you know. It is hard to be single. Of course.   Amy Of course. Of course. Yeah, I.   Jordan Carlos Sharing all you know, sharing everything. Sharing all the coffee, sharing all the coffee.   Amy Sharing the toilet.   Jordan Carlos Sharing the toilet, sharing the goddamn toothpaste. You know, all that and. All. This other. What's wrong with sharing toothpaste?   Amy I thought you said toothpicks. I'm so sorry. I was.   Grace That would be f---ing nasty.   Jordan Carlos Well, who has toothpicks in their house? What in the Tony Soprano's, it's. It's got to be stuff in the house.   Amy No grass is always greener.   Jordan Carlos But grass is always greener. But you know what? If you like to. If you like. Yeah. And you enjoy your own company. Yeah. As you said, Amy, I enjoy my own company. Lord, when my kids and my wife are out the house, I'm like, I'm single. I'm like Tom Cruise in that movie, like gang, gang, gang, gang. Oh, my God. My hips are so good. All right, so.   Grace The hips don't lie.   Jordan Carlos The hips don't lie. That's a lot of yoga you want to talk about your. And it. My antidote. My antidote is yoga. Wow. Yes, that's right. My wife doing it so much, I was like, I want to live a long time, too. So I got to open. Gentleman.   Amy Men die sooner.   Jordan Carlos Your hips are not open, sir.   Amy Open them up.   Jordan Carlos This guy is forward, like he;s taking a sh--.   Amy Right there.   Jordan Carlos You were totally dragged here, weren't you? Well, whose. Whose idea was it? It was her idea. Na na na na. Yeah, that's right. Know. He's like, if I endure this, maybe they will be sexy.   Amy There will be, there will be. There will be. Yeah, there will be. Guys, guys.   Jordan Carlos I know too much.   Amy This this has been an amazing wellness session from Jordan Carlos. The one. The only the me champagne.   Grace Yeah. Thank you so much, Jordan.   Jordan Carlos Amazing. Goodbye.   Amy Bye, Jordan. Thank you.   Grace Thanks for listening to The Antidote. We hope this injected a little bit of joy into your week. I know it did mine. How about you, Amy?   Amy I feel good, girl. We should do this again sometime. Oh, we'll be here next week.   Grace And in the meantime, if you'd like to follow us on social, follow me. Grace. At Gracyact. That's G-R-A-C-Y-A-C-T.    Amy And follow me. Amy at AmyAniobi. That's A-M-Y-A-N-I-O-B-I and follow the show at theeantidotepod.   Grace That's thee with two E's.   Amy If you like feeling good about yourself, please subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.   Grace Goodbye.   Amy And when in doubt, do it live. The Antidote is hosted by us Amy Aniobi and Grace Edwards. The show's production team includes senior producer Se'era Spragley Ricks and associate producer Jess Penzetta.   Grace Our executive producer is Erica Kraus and our editor is Erika Janik. Sound Mixing by Alex Simpson.   Amy Digital Production by Mijoe Sahiouni. Talent Booking by Marianne Ways. Our theme music was composed and produced by TT The Artist and Cosmo the true.   Grace APM Studio executives in charge are Chandra Kavati, Alex Schaffert and Joanne Griffith. Concept created by Amy Aniobi and Grace Edwards.   Amy Send us your antidotes at Antidoteshow.org, and remember to follow us on social media at theeantidotepod.   Grace The Antidote is the production of American Public Media.   Amy Woot woot.

In this episode of The Antidote, Amy and Grace connect with comedian, writer, and actor Dulcé Sloan. In a live conversation from this year's New York Comedy Festival, Dulcé shares her favorite murder mysteries, the joys of crafting, and savoring hobbies. Amy and Grace share their bummer news of the week –  owl attacks are becoming more common, and how Stacy Abrams' loss felt like a gut punch for Black women. They also share their antidotes: a new Netflix show and waffles.  Do you have a favorite antidote, or need an antidote suggestion? A question for Grace and Amy, or something you loved that Amy, Grace or one of their guests has said on the podcast? Share a message with The Antidote team: https://mpr.tfaforms.net/111 or tag us on Instagram with the hashtag #ThatsMyAntidote, or leave us a message on our hotline at 833-684-3683. FULL TRANSCRIPT Amy The world is a dumpster fire. I'm Amy. Grace And I'm Grace. Amy And we want to f---in help. Grace We're comedy writers in Los Angeles, and we like to take the bad sh-- we hear and work through it together. Amy We talk about cultural moments we love. Grace Talk to people we adore. Amy Crushes we have. Grace And self-care we stan. Amy During these trying times, we all need a show that focuses on joy. Grace This is The Antidote. Live. Amy That's right. That's motherf---ing right. Friends, we are very happy to share with you all our first ever live show from Brooklyn, New York, which was a part of the New York Comedy Festival on November 12. Grace We're joined by our friends Dulce Sloan and Jordan Carlos. Amy Not only were they the funniest and most awesome guests ever, that live energy really just gotten to all of us. It was so much fun. Grace This is part one of the antidote live with Dulce Sloan motherf---ing Brooklyn. Thank you all for coming to our first live show. We're so excited to be here with you. Amy We're super excited. And, you know, like for you guys who know the podcast, we always talk about our antidotes and our bummer news. But I do want to say that this live show is coming at the end of a month of New York with my best friend, Grace. Yeah. And there have been some real highlights to be in New York with you. Like our fancy dinner, we had to scarf it up. Grace Literally bought, like everything on the menu and they're like, Can you eat all this f---ing food? I was like, Yeah. Amy Yeah, yeah, watch me, watch it. Also also, we saw Top Dog Underdog on Broadway. Grace We did. And let me tell you about. Yeah, yeah. Amy Yeah, Ya-Ya can get it. He can get it. I don't know what the play was about because in my head the play was about his thighs. I don't know what I saw. Grace But it was really good. Like I would recommend everybody see it. First of all, like Corey Hawkins, such a great actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A great actor as well. Didn't really focus on his acting because like I said. Amy Once again, the thighs. Once again the thighs. And we also did other fancy things, like we had a little nightcap at Dumbo house one night. I saw how the other half lives, the other half being my friend Grace. Um, it was really, really fancy. But I'm really glad we had these moments together because it's a distraction from how sh---y the world is. Yeah. Yeah. So starting now, top with our bummer news of the week. Grace The bummer news. Amy So guys, first up is an owl attack. I don't know if anyone has seen this news, but apparently owls have been attacking people. Okay, so so this is a live show and you guys are seeing the visuals. I love that you're enjoying the visuals to our guests who are just tuning in through their ear holes. It's an owl. Attacking a man on screen literally keeps happening. Apparently in Washington, there is a woman who's been attacked by the same owl twice. Grace Twice. Amy Her name is Kristen Matheson, and she was walking in the woods near her house when she got attacked. And she said, quote, It felt like getting punched in the back of the head by someone wearing rings. And apparently people are saying barred owls are aggressive owls and they're highly territorial. So maybe she thought they were her woods, but they were the owls. Grace No. Well, first of all, we still got to worry about COVID, right? We got to worry about Nazis. Right. And we got to worry about owl attacks. First of all, I want to know what she did to that owl, because that's what attacked twice. Like, did you steal that owls, man? Did you like did you, like, talk about his mom and dad? She caught that beak twice. Amy The thing to me is like nature is clearly trying to take us out, and it just keeps happening. Like, I'm literally like Mortal Kombat. It's like, finish him because the owl is trying. And I really just think it's time for us to go. Grace Yeah. Amy Nature wants us out of here. Grace It might be a wrap for the human race. 2022 is wildin. Owl attacks? Amy Yeah, but that's not the only bit of bummer news or something else. So you guys have been following the midterm elections, obviously. Stacey Abrams lost. Yeah, Georgia. Exactly. I heard a note backstage by someone you're going to meet later, one of our guests. And honestly, for Black women, this felt like a punch in the gut. It felt like an owl attack on our hearts. Grace Our attack on our democracy. Amy Exactly. Yeah. Abrams lost her rematch bid in Georgia's gubernatorial race on Tuesday night, and some black women and activists have called it a devastating blow. In an opinion piece with The Daily Beast, contributing editor Goldie Taylor said that Abrams didn't look like a governor. Which makes me wonder what the f--- a governor look like. This woman, she had a blazer. She had a cold chain on. Grace She got a gap in her tooth. She got a fabulous lip. What a bad bitch. That's all I'm thinking about. Amy So to me, I got to be honest, I decide to because I hate to lose. But you know what? I hate more being insulted every day. Every day she's in the spotlight. She gets insulted. And I'm tired of that, honestly. Stacey, so good for the race. Grace I mean, honestly, she saved democracy. I mean, like, I remember, like, in Georgia f---ing blue. I know she turned Georgia blue. She has done so much to, like, register voters. And the only reason that these new school wild ass Republicans are not, like, fully in control of everything is due to this queen. And what does she get lost to? Brian Kemp. Y'all want Brian Kemp again? Again? Yeah. That was so f---ing sad outside that day. Amy Yeah. So how do you feel after discussing this bummer news, Grace? Grace Not good. I mean, I'm looking for owls. I don't want to catch nobody's speak. And Stacey Abrams is not the governor of Georgia. What she should be. Amy Yeah, I agree. I agree. Grace So you know what? Let's get into this antidote. Amy Yes, it is. So for people who are new to this but about to be true to this, this is the segment where we tell you about the culture we consumed and things we did this week that made us feel better about the bummer news. So, Grace, I'd love to know what was your antidote? Grace Okay, well, it was it was a rough week this week because like there I was stressed about these midterm elections because everybody's like, yeah, it's going to be a red wave. And I'm like, okay, are they going to bring slavery back? I don't know. Like, I keep getting worse, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? I was so, like, scared this week, so I wanted to, like, flush my brain out with something good. So I saw on Netflix there was a show called From Scratch. Oh, my God. Tell them about them that scratched my itch. It's basically starring Zoe Saldana, created by Attica Locke and Tenby Locke, who are sisters. Isn't that f---ing cute? They, like, created a show together based on Tempe's book of the same name about a true story about her, like falling in love with this chef in Italy and making spaghetti king. I know. Amy And you better twirl that linguini. Grace He made her spaghetti. He did make her some other making spaghetti and he did other things, too. So it was so delightful because, like, it was just so sweet. It was like, beautifully written. It was well-shot. It just gave me what I needed. I love comedy. Obviously, the only thing that I love more than comedy is people falling up. I love. So it was really just a delight to see. And I mean, there was so much yummy food. I went to Italy for the first time with this bitch last year. Amy Yes, she did. Yeah, that's right. We're gross. We travel together and we do everything together. Grace And I don't know, it just really was beautiful escapism. And I know that there's cancer later, but. Amy Spoil. I haven't seen it. What! Grace I didn't get to the cancer part yet. So I got to the only the happy. Amy Who dies? Who? Grace Maybe nobody dies. I don't know. Amy Who dies? Not the Black woman. Grace No, no, no. So, I don't know. It was just really fine. I was drinking some wine. I cried. Happy tears. Amy Very Italian of you. Grace Yeah, very like. So that was definitely my antidote this week of just crying, watching. So leave it. Still to fall in love with an Italian man.  Amy That was lovely. Loved it. Yeah. Italians love Black women. That's like a thing. Oh, they made a show about it. It's called, like, from Italy with Love. And it's just like women being like, I'm looking for my Italian king and a lot of Italian men being like, I love your lips are a little problematic get and where you fit in. Okay I will imports. Grace Well, no, but I didn't I didn't get any Italian love when I was there. Amy So we got to go back. We got to go back. We got to go back. Grace Got to go back and say from scratch, you heard of it? I want it. So what was your antidote this week? Amy So last night I had like a real New York night and, you know, I came here for work, so and I'm very if you all know me, I'm a double Virgo. Like, I'm all about my work. I'm like, I want to prep. I want to do a good job. I want to be working. And so I hadn't gone out, out like we've had our fancy dinner or whatever the f---, but we haven't like gone out in New York. And last night I went out with a friend and that's not even the antidote part. And she's here in the audience and she's going to hear the story. And she didn't know that this happened, but that's her. Give me I'm about to tell you a story. Basically, we went out for a very early like grandma dinner, like we were trying to be responsible, have dinner at like 5 p.m. and then it rolled into another spot and then we're doing an orange wine and then we stumble. I got this. I don't know where it entered my head. I think we're sitting in front of a grocery store and there's an ad for waffles in the window. And I was like, I want a waffle. And then my friend looked up a waffle spot, pies and dice, and we walked over to pies and pies and they were out of waffles. And I was there in my class. Grace I mean, you had one job, pies and thighs. Amy My slightly drunk splendor. Like you have pies and you have thighs, but you don't have waffles. And they were like, It'll be about 20 minutes. Like we're making them. And I was like, Well, I can't wait. So my friend. And I said, goodnight. I waved goodnight. I got in my little car and I drove home. And guess how long that car ride was? Well, it was about 20 minutes. So I got home and I just thought to myself, Well, what if I went on DoorDash and looked to see if the waffles were ready? Jimmy The waffles were ready. Apart from pies and thighs, and it wasn't enough to complete an order. So I also ordered a single catfish in a single biscuit and a full. And then I had a meal. And so they delivered it. And I ate this waffle and fell asleep on my couch eating this waffle.  Grace Oh, my God. Amy And that was my antidote. Sometimes you need to doordash happiness to your. That was my answer. So stay tuned. You'll hear more from our live show right after this break. Our guest is a hilarious and dope ass comedian, writer and actor. She's a correspondent on Comedy Central's The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Rolling Stone recently hailed her as one of the top ten comedians you need to know, declaring, quote, She speaks and they simply fall in line behind you.   Grace Yes, Queen.   Amy Please welcome one of the stars of the Fox series, The Great North and costar of my co-host movie Jodi out next year. Dulce f---ing Sloan. It's nighttime here in Brooklyn, and we're here to learn about your antidote.   Dulce Sloan So I have a craft room in my house. And, uh, recently I was like, because I enjoy the crafting and I was looking on the TikTok and part of it I saw like this thing called a knitting machine.   Grace And knitting is like, it does it for you.   Dulce Sloan Yeah. Because like I had I not a knit, I know how to crochet, but I also can't dedicate six years of my life to making one scarf. No, no.   Amy You're too busy for that. Like you said, you won't see your son truly.   Dulce Sloan So I don't know who lives a lifestyle where they can make a scarf in less than four years. But I am not that person. So basically it's this machine, just like 48 hooks on it and it's just a knob that you turn. It was like some 40, 60 bucks. I won pansies and so I made like a knitted cap in like 20 minutes was.   Amy That should take 20 weeks, right?   Dulce Sloan Yeah, it does. Like a hundred rows of knitting. That's so cool. And like 20 minutes.   Amy What were the colors?   Dulce Sloan When I started with. Because I bought like, this really pretty like a teal kind of yarn, the.   Grace Ahhh.   Dulce Sloan Go to. And then I just make like this really long, long, long scarf. But I bought like a lot of these little, like, poofs. So I was like, F---, I got a little clothes that you put on.   Amy Pom pom pom.   Dulce Sloan Pom pom thing, but like the little fauz fur ones.   Amy Yeah.   Dulce Sloan I got those. And then one of my friends was like, ah, like, I'll make you a hat. She's like, I got to have it. The silk glasses, though.   Grace So you worried about the pearls?   Dulce Sloan I hear you. I hear you. So I got some of those really, like, long, like, bonnets. Yeah. So now I have to figure out how to sew, though. I mean, I could, so. So I got to just figure out how with the yarn and everything, I'm going to get like this. So I guess apparently when I start making satin lined knit can.   Amy Wait a second. No, that's really dope.   Dulce Sloan Because of life. But yeah, there is that then a very silly thing. So I enjoy murder mysteries. Okay, but I don't like the true crime ones.   Amy You like the fake one?   Dulce Sloan I don't want to know that somebody died. I want to know somebody like that. Like, oh, this person's dead. And somebody went.   Amy Cut, and then they went and got lunch.   Grace And they were not dead. They just had.   Dulce Sloan They were not dead. But I don't like the really intense emotional.   Amy I can't do that.   Dulce Sloan I can't do it too much. So I was trying to find a New Yorker, like I started watching Murder. She wrote Homicide was f---ed up. Poppycock, Peacock. I won't watch a murder she wrote for the past year, right?   Amy Yeah.   Dulce Sloan And Ms. lansbury. Yes. R.I.P. Met the Lord. Yes, she did. All of a sudden, now all a murder. She rose behind a paywall. No.   Amy Peacock what.   Dulce Sloan I'm in like the seventh show is like 15 f---ing seasons. So it was really for like 1987 to like 22. I had no f---ing clue. Right. It was on for most of my life.   Amy Yes. And so I watched it as a child.   Dulce Sloan Right. And saw that because I remember when I was like, I want another show to watch because I watched like the little like British shows or whatever. But I'm going to British shows get too intense. So I'm just like, first of all, turn the volume up on this f---ing show.   Amy First of all.   Dulce Sloan Am I  the only person watch the British shows like because they're very quiet. They're very.   Grace Very quickly and very quietly.   Dulce Sloan It's very quiet, very darkly lit. I'm like, I even know the race of this person who's speaking. There's all this bitches blond. With all the information that I.   Grace Spicy white, you don't know.   Dulce Sloan Right, listen. And also, can we retire spicy white? Because I guess because spicy whites are just white people trying to disassociate themselves from the bad white. Oh, I.   Amy Think about it that way. For me, it's any time I see someone who's got a little olive tone.   Dulce Sloan Naw, it's a set up. The Italians also colonized? Yeah.   Amy No, that's true. That's true.   Dulce Sloan You ever heard of Ethiopia? Yeah. The Mali guy. Yeah. Yeah, the Portuguese. Brazil.   Amy Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a Jewish friend from Ethiopia and everyone was like, How are you Jewish? And she was like, Bitch, we're the originals. Colonialism.   Dulce Sloan It was like, That's how we got Ethiopian Jews. It's like the Ethiopian Jews was like the 12 tribes, man. They were right there. They were like, Oh, Israel's nice. But what, what is happening in Africa, from what I hear from Ethiopian Jews are like not we're from the first like the first 12 dudes. Yeah, that was us murder mysteries.   Amy Then what are the ones?   Dulce Sloan So I found a very silly one. So I have now added the Hallmark mystery movies. Zero. So my.   Amy Wait. So those are religious?   Grace So you have to like pay for that. It's like a hallmark plus.   Dulce Sloan It's like six bucks. I have six dolalrs.   Amy There are so many pluses.   Dulce Sloan So you have to say to yourself, Should I add this show? You're like, bitch, you have six times. You will always have $6 if you spend more than that at a sandwich at your local corner store. Yeah, you have $6, bitch. And so they have all these they have all these murder mysteries, but it's the same f---ing formula, cause it's so it's a woman. They're usually white. I found one with Holly Robinson Peete on it, and I was.   Amy Like, Well.   Dulce Sloan You know, where she is? So they all have, like, a professional job.   Grace And they're jogging.   Dulce Sloan No, no, no. These bitches don't jog. They're running businesses. They don't have time to jog. And so it's the same formula I, I've watched like the garage sale mysteries where. Lori Loughlin. Yeah.   Amy Lori Loughlin is bad.   Dulce Sloan Oh, her and her friend. We hate her. Mark, I have no qualms about this woman. Wasn't my kid, so no qualms. This lady couldn't give a sh--. Her and her friend owned an antique store. It's called the Garage Sale Mysteries because you would go to garage sales and get like, sh--, the governor antique store. And then she would find something like, Oh my God, I've got this antique camera. There's a picture of a murder on here. That murder just happened. I got to solve it. So it's.   Grace A picture of a murder.   Dulce Sloan So now her husband. And then the first of all, the kids keep changing the actor. So the actor, the player. Yeah. So they.   Dulce Sloan The actors that play the kids keep getting progressively worse or if I'm watching the show out. Of order or all those like they're. All an hour and a half long. So it's basically like a f---ing movie. So to like this isn't it's either I can binge watch. I would in my mind since it's a TV show, it's not like a movie. So like watching a movie seems like a dedication to time, but like watching an hour long TV show. I just. David So I watch those shows, those like garage sale, mystery murder. She Bakes is based on the bakery.   Grace Did the murder happen at the office?   Dulce Sloan No but a rival baker did die in the kitchen after she helped this guy and then there's murder. She bakes. And then there's the chick that has, like, a flower shop whose work I think is Brooke Shields. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's like Alison Sweeney. Brooke Shields. Holly Robinson Peete is like a cook on. She has like a cooking segment on a TV show, but they also in a restaurant, there's that sh--. And then I'm like, Right, there's that. And then Korean dramas is the other thing that I watch.   Amy Wait, but I love this. First of all, I love TV that works on a formula like I'm Nigerian and Nigerian films. Like for the longest time before, like Nollywood really blew up. They all had a formula. It was always like a man gets possessed by a witch and then he cheats on his wife. And the while we used to.   Dulce Sloan Like when we moved back to Atlana, we lived with Nigerians. And I remember like I don't speak Yoruba, so I know what the f--- is going on, but there was, but like, I know like, oh we don't like this later.   Amy Yeah.   Dulce Sloan That I couldn't figure out. Also I don't know how they were all in a village and it was an all white and it it's f---ing spotless. I was watching this woman. She walked out. I'm seeing a woman walk out of a hut. And they're in the village because they're going to visit family or some sh--. Yeah, everyone's in white. It's immaculate.   Amy It doesn't make any sense. The wind is blowing. There's a lot of dust.   Dulce Sloan There are no floors. And these bitches are in the cleaners. I'm like, God bless.   Amy Nollywood mansion.   Dulce Sloan Bring your skills over to the great USA. Very because I have a washing machine and my weight ain't never been that sharp that you can feel the crystal air. But yeah, that in Korean dramas and I've been watching Korean dramas since I was in high school.   Amy I'm obsessed with both of these antidotes. The fact that you are first of all, you have a craft room and you're crafting and you're sewing and you're making things. I'd love to know when the Etsy store opened, like when.   Dulce Sloan Listen. I used to have a jewelry business.   Amy Yeah.   Grace And what did you make?   Dulce Sloan So, like feather earrings. I was the first one to start.   Amy Okay. Wait. That was the thing, that was a moment.   Dulce Sloan That was a big moment. I started making my mom and my mother was like, because my mother always had businesses. She has a clothing business named after me. All these other sh-- I've been like. And my first business when I was like, nine. I'm very tired because I've been working for 30 years. Yeah. And so and I'm not 40. It's not fair, but this man's not having to sweep me away. We got to figure this sh-- out. And I mean, you hope, but hope's hard. So I would make all this handmade Legos, like beadwork and stuff like that, and I would go to different things around Atlanta and sell jewelry. And then I used to do crafts at kid's birthday parties, so like scavenger hunts, all kinds of sh--, and then at the same and then still having a day job, still doing stand up. So acting all of that sh--. Yeah. So I'm just, I'm tired.   Amy You're like, I'm not going to do the jewelry store. It's for you now.   Dulce Sloan I thought, because, like, I had a bunch of jewelry that I had made cause I started getting into U.V. resin, and I was like, I could sell this as merch. Then I'm like.   Amy Wow. That's that's the best part about a real answer is that it's just for you.   Dulce Sloan It's just, yeah, like, I have this whole crowd from, like, a, like, the silliest thing. Like I made like these like every year for my manager's birthday, I'll do like, a vintage of him. So, like, the year, like two years ago, I'm like a doll out of him. Yeah.   Amy Oh, no, that. Wait, what? Voodoo. What?   Dulce Sloan Now I'm saying they invited the Holy Ghost. Don't play me.   Amy So he didn't, like, clip his hair and then make it out of him? No. Gotcha. Okay. Sorry, sorry. I heard.   Dulce Sloan I hear you. It's a little because I did one for my nephew too, so that could be like a little felt doll out of him. I used to work at like my last day job was a stucco supply company, like construction materials. So like, I made like a picture of him out of, like, different colors of stucco just from the guys in the back.   Amy Yeah. Um.   Dulce Sloan But it's funny because he's Jewish and he had a little Jewish afro, so the dude in the back was his new black clothes are like, so you've been a, you have a black man, a picture itself. I was like, That's not what's happening. I see why you would think that I actually for page stucco, you need to calm down. Um, so then like from I've done like parlor beard, uh, vinyl all kind of like every year I just come up with like a different is a stupid thing that I started myself. I did like a big cross-stitch thing. I have one time oh wow that it faces. So it's just like it's a face.   Amy I know but that's our too is like not doing the face is is of that is a choice a choice like choice.   Dulce Sloan But like so I have a cricket as well. So this year I was able to like I took a picture of him and then did the image of it.   Amy Do you mean where an actual cricket or a cricket phone or what do you mean the cricket either?   Dulce Sloan Okay.   Grace We are not crafty bitches, you know. We don't know the terminology.   Dulce Sloan I hear you because I said cricket. Somebody was like, Yeah, like am I am I right off the bat? So no, there's no magical creature at my house.   Amy You don't have a little Jiminy.   Grace I was like, Jimmy.   Amy All right tell me what it is. Go.   Dulce Sloan It is. It's a so basically it's like a they call it a is a cricket like crap machine. So basically there's a computer program that you can use to create like different images and then you can either cut them out or draw them on whatever material you want to see, whether it's because, like, I'm bad at drawing.   Amy Yeah, yeah, me too.   Dulce Sloan So, like this year when I did, like, the thing of him, it was like, I guess it's giving like Andy Warhol because I had, like, this marble paper that was like four different colors, this marble paper. And then I had like I was trying to, it was Shrinky Dinks, but it didn't work so that like four suckers are hard to use. It's an ad for different colors of the construction paper. That was the main color out of the marble paper. And then so it drew the image of him on the paper and I cut it out and I just colored it. And so it's like a a square thing of him and like in like, primary colors.   Amy Thank you. You are a woman of many talents.   Dulce Sloan Yeah, thank you. I'm very tired.   Amy Yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. You know what? Yeah, yeah. I feel like.   Dulce Sloan I mean, I tried. We tried to pitch like a crafting show with an Amy Poehler show was our yet. And I was like, f---.   Grace Making things.   Amy Wait a year, make it again.   Dulce Sloan Make it easier, do it again. I mean, it's great, but I'm just like, but what if it was black people? Yeah.   Amy But like lit a lot of a lot of things. What if it was Black people? Right.   Dulce Sloan Cause I often cause, like, honestly and what I really want to do, because, like, I watch all of these, like, murder mystery shows. Yes. They call, like, the cozy mysteries, the best that the whole like the genre of the book. So you have three you're like and I wonder.   Amy A blanket with your tea being like who got murdered.   Dulce Sloan Just holding with two hands like, oh, who did it?   Grace I'm safe here. Right.   Dulce Sloan So they have like 20, literally like 15. They got the one for the bitch. You play DJ on Full House.   Amy She be out here getting murdered.   Dulce Sloan I don't know. No. She's trying to solve the crimes.   Amy She's of solving the murders of murder.   Dulce Sloan And like Miranda Teagarden or some wild sh--, I don't know that that would be shady. And everyone I'm saying is that they have like, you can go like this, look like the crossword murders. The matchmaking works. Yeah, after like 20 of these shows, but there's only one with a black woman. And then her love interest is Rick Fox and all.   Amy And I want to start crafting with Dulce Sloan. I want this in my life.   Dulce Sloan This and we have to work on it because I want to be on my f---ing Scooby-Doo, Sherlock Holmes, Nancy Drew bullsh--.   Grace And we want to see that sh--.   Dulce Sloan Roll up to your neighborhood being like, I'm not sure who did it, but I have an idea.   Grace And then you go and interview the wrong person first, right?   Dulce Sloan Yes. She's out here looking for clues. And then there's my will. They won't. They love interest.   Grace Yes.   Dulce Sloan Because like the one with Lori Loughlin, like that was the only one where someone's married. Yeah, all the other ones. And they keep having these B and C storylines where her kids that are very useless.   Amy We don't care about the kids. We care about the woman who's solving the mystery. Yes, we care about the women solving the mysteries.   Dulce Sloan Right? So, like, I love her, but I'm just like, I'll give a f--- if your son that passes math test. You killed Pastor John.   Amy And that's the question to take home tonight, ladies. Who killed Pastor Justin. Thank you so much, you guys, for coming and seeing The Antidote Live.   Grace Oh, yeah. We hope this injected a little bit of joy into your week. I know it did mine. How about you, Amy?   Grace Yeah, it definitely did. We should do this again sometime. We should do this again. Live sometime.   Grace We couldn't have done it without you, our lovely audience. So thank you so much for being a part of our first live show. We hope to do more of these in the future.   Amy Yea, we doing with that. Goodnight.   Grace If you'd like to follow us on social, follow me. Grace at GracyAct. That's G-R-A-C-Y-A-C-T.   Amy And follow me. Amy at AmyAniobi. That's A-M-Y-A-N-I-O-B-I and follow the show at theeantidotepod.   Grace That's thee with two E's.   Amy If you like, feeling good about yourself. Please subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Antidote is hosted by us Amy Aniobi and Grace Edwards. The show's production team includes senior producer Se'era Spragley Ricks and associate producer Jess Penzetta.   Grace Our executive producer is Erica Kraus and our editor is Erika Janik. Sound Mixing by Evan Clark.   Amy Digital Production by Mijoe Sahiouni. Talent Booking by Marianne Ways. Our theme music was composed and produced by TT the artist and Cosmo The Truth. Send us your antidotes at AntidoteShow.org And remember to follow us on social media at theentidotepod. That's thee with two E's, y'all. What, what!

In this episode of The Antidote, Amy and Grace connect with actress, podcaster, and beauty maven Ashley Blaine Featherson-Jenkins about how we all can benefit from a ‘hot girl walk', the act of surrendering, and falling in love with New York City again. Amy and Grace share their bummer news of the week –  racist backlash over The Lord of The Rings series on Amazon, and the state of Texas sending students home with DNA kits so their bodies can be identified “in case of emergency.” They also share their antidote: an overnight mask and showering at night.  This week's Creative Tap-In:  “A creative life is an amplified life.” -Elizabeth Gilbert Do you have a favorite antidote, or need an antidote suggestion? A question for Grace and Amy, or something you loved that Amy, Grace or one of their guests has said on the podcast? Share a message with The Antidote team: https://mpr.tfaforms.net/111 or tag us on Instagram with the hashtag #ThatsMyAntidote, or leave us a message on our hotline at 833-684-3683. Sponsors: BetterHelp Online Therapy -  betterhelp.com/ANTIDOTE FULL TRANSCRIPT Amy The world is a dumpster fire. I'm Amy. Grace And I'm Grace. Amy And we want to f---in help. Grace We're comedy writers in Los Angeles. And as a reflex to the madness on the news, we're keeping it positive, but opinionated. Amy We talk about cultural moments we love. Grace Talk to people we adore. Amy Crushes we have. Grace And self-care we stan. Amy During these trying times we all need to show that focuses on joy. Grace This is The Antidote. Hey, everybody. You're back for another week. Amy Ooh, I love. Wow. Grace given us Broadway. Give it up. Musical theater. Grace Give you some vocal stylings, I guess. I don't know what that was. But thank you for coming to The Antidote for yet another week, friends. Amy Yeah, and thank you guys for attending our live show in New York. Grace Oh, it's so great to see you. Amy The listeners who were able to make it. It was so awesome. For those who weren't able to attend. Stay tuned to our live show. We're going to be putting out a recording as a future episode. You can kind of experience it. You know, it won't be the same, but it'll be similar. Grace Yeah, but we'd love to do more live shows in 2023, so stay tuned and see when our next one is. Amy Yeah. Anyway, I know this is kind of old, but I guess I was just like going back. There are old texts or something. Grace and I saw the video of Maxwell breaking it down on stage with his niece. Grace Yes. I was like is Uncle season now here? Okay. He came to make the aunties first and Auntie Junior is like myself. Because I was like, ok Maxwell. And the funniest tweet that I thought about it was. Like when he was like. Doing his little Meghan thee stallion knees move Like they're like there's literally no song Maxwell has that justifies this cause, because somebody put it over this woman's work. So it's like. Amy And I just want to be like n---- stand up. Grace But like he, you know, we got all our jokes off our Black Twitter and Instagram. And so he responded, he's just like, Y'all could never and so he made it the Maxwell Challenge, I believe. Amy Oh, I love it because I love the Maxwell Challenge. I need to see some more men doing that. Well, need is doing a lot of work in that sentence, but I would not mind saying, but it really is a good season. Like you said. Grace I'm just really happy that Maxwell is getting his flowers. You know, new people are discovering Maxwell, those of us who are around the first time around, they're just like, Oh, Maxwell, I'm glad you still doing it. And I'm glad your knees are still good. Amy I actually really love that Maxwell is getting his flowers and all of the Zaddy's. I mean Ginuwine he out here. Grace Oh yeah. Same ol G. Amy And also Usher singing to Issa Rae on stage. Grace Oh she deserves all the songs right to her face. Amy I mean, I do love all these nineties men turn it up and also through dance, like dancing is a source of joy. We love to dance. And I know that our guest, you guys stay around for our guest, Ashley Blaine Feathers. And she actually talks about the joy of dance and our interview with her. So it'll be really fun to revisit this topic. Grace And beautiful, funny and profound. Queen. Yes. I can't wait for you to hear this interview. But honestly, Amy, we wouldn't need the antidotes if we didn't have something to get an antidote from. Amy Starting now, top with our bummer news of the week. First of all, this is an ongoing bummer news issue. Oh, gosh. But I feel like we just kind of got to talk about it a little bit. There's been so much racist backlash over the new Lord of the Rings series on Amazon. There have been all these trolls or like Middle-Earth, it has elves and hobbits and wizards, you know, fictional things. But people are having problems with the color skin of some of the actors being cast in the show. Much like people having problems with the fictional mermaid Ariel being a different color than they wanted to be. So there's an actor named Cynthia Robinson who portrays the Queen region of New Manaugh, I think is how it's pronounced. Cynthia Robinson portrays the Queen region of this fictional city, and people are mad at her in response to the backlash, she said. My focus, especially as more of the show has aired, has been the more joyful aspects of what this story means to people, end quote. And I love that she's turning it into a little bit more positive of a message. She's basically saying, block the haters and the real fans who like the work that they're doing, which I really appreciate. It can be really hard to be brought down by sh-- like this. But I do have to say, for a bunch of people who are like full nerds watching this stuff and I'm a nerd about a lot of things, but fantasy ain't my sh--, but it is fantasy. And so it always kind of rocks me a little weird when people are like, Oh, but this thing that is fantasy isn't what I find. Like Harry Potter, like Hermoine with her kinky hair. And I'm like, her name's Hermoine she might be Black, you know, like, doesn't really bother me. But I think it's because as Black people, we're used to imagining different types of worlds, and white people don't really have to. Grace Yeah. And I'm just sad. Like, when I hear that quote from her. Oh, it makes me think about is like all the many times as Black women that were expected to rise above that, we're expected to make a positive. We're expected to, like, not show if we are upset about racism. You know, I'm sure, you know, maybe in her quiet moments, she's not bothered by it. But in my quiet moments, I'm continuously bothered by it because I was just like, What do you want? Like, do you want do you want worlds where we don't exist? And I'm sorry, but we exist, you know, and because we exist on a lot of amazing things exists because Black people exist. Yeah. And I'm sorry that you want to be in a world where we don't exist, but you're not going to get that. Sorry. In 2022 and 2023. You're just not going to get it. Amy And not in the future and not in fantasy. Grace Exactly. And so my question is always like, are we still doing this? Like every single time, y'all do not look good. Whoever is making these racist statements, it doesn't make you look good. It doesn't make you look good to your friends. It doesn't make you look good. Your family members, maybe they all races too. But like all the justification about why. He's like, well, this would have been in Europe. Or whatever. No, it wouldn't have been in Europe because it is not real. And guess what? We were in Europe, too, back then. You know what I'm saying? Like that this whole, like, fantasy that we weren't in Europe or where we were in any of these places is a fantasy because we were there the entire time. Like. Amy I was Black. Grace You know what I'm saying? Even like Shakespeare wrote about the Moors, like you wrote Othello. We were there. We were there. So, like, this whole thing, like, you're just racist. Just stand ten toes down and say, I'm a racist piece of sh-- so we can know which way to categorize you and keep it moving. Like, it's just sad that these actors who are getting an amazing opportunity, like a lot of these times, like these actors, this is their first, like, big thing and they have to f---ing be subjected to all this backlash that doesn't have to do with them. They didn't cast themselves. Amy Yeah, they didn't cast themselves. Exactly. What you just said makes me think of people who are mad at Ariel and they're like, well, technically, the Little Mermaid was written by Danish Man and it's from Denmark, so shouldn't she be blind? And I'm just like, y'all are so weird. Like, I'm like, it's fictional. Grace She's a mermaid. I saw this tweet about how they didn't believe that Ariel would be black. And literally it was. So after all the Africans y'all threw in the ocean, y'all surprised the mermaid is Black. Amy Yeah, that's real. By that. Grace And that's by thatwitchbitch. Fair point, girl. Amy Fair point. Think we didn't learn how to live down there yet? And that's my issue is like they're using, like, nerd logic to try and justify their racism. And you're absolutely right. Like, just say you're racist. Like you're saying all these technically is an actual these and well, if you really think about it and it's like, no, no, now you're just not creative enough to imagine a world that could look different from you. So just admit that that's not the only bit of bummer news this week. There's also this coming out of my home state. Apparently, Texas parents have been given DNA kits to help identify their children. In case of an emergency.   Grace Damn.   Amy And I'm like, How f---ed up is this? The state of Texas is sending students home with DNA kits so their bodies can be identified in case of an emergency. Today has stated that, quote, The threefold pamphlets allow caregivers to store their children's DNA and fingerprints at home, which could then be turned over to law enforcement agencies and, quote, presumably in order to identify their bodies. It sends a clear message that the government of Texas is not going to do anything to stop these types of shootings from happening.   Grace I know Texas is such a red, red, red state, as blue as California, New York are is this red as Texas is? So here's the thing about this country, and I don't know how else to say it is. I just don't understand how some people think. Yeah. I really don't understand. So y'all would rather do this, then? Gun control. Mm hmm. Y'all would rather send your kids home with DNA kits, then be like, Hey, how about we don't let regular people have weapons of war? That's what you would rather have.   Amy When I think about this sh--, I get so, so frustrated. How do you feel, Grace?   Grace Yeah, terrible. I mean, that DNA kid thing is super, super, super, super sad. And then. Okay. Like, racism exists. We all know it, but every time it hits, it's still like a terrible moment in your day. How about you?   Amy Yeah, very much the same.   Grace Okay, let's get into the antidote.   Amy So this is the segment where we tell you about the culture we consumed and things we did this week that made us feel better about the bummer news, which we need. What was your antidote this week, Grace?   Grace Okay, so, you know, I'm away from home, which is great in many ways, but also sad anyways. And so, you know, when you're you're away from home, you pack your essentials and sometimes you don't you forget something back at home or whatever. And so what I've been enjoying as part of my self-care routine is an overnight mask. Ooh. So the one I have in L.A. is called Drunk Elephant. I like, you know, just smear that on is the last part of my evening skincare routine. But I left it in L.A. So I was telling my showrunner this this is the type of small talk that I subject my showrunner to. Bougie complaints. Like, Oh, I left my overnight meal and yeah.   Amy In my other abode.   Grace My God. So she's like, Oh, I actually have a recommendation for one that I really, really love. And she's a very beautiful lady and she has lovely skin. So I was just like, Oh, okay, let me tell Danielle, please tell me which one you like. And so she recommended this one buy fresh and it's the fresh black tea firming over night mask. And so all right, let's try it out. And it is so good.   Amy Really. Is it like a mask? Like a physical mask or like a cream or a gel?   Grace It's a cream.   Amy How it's go on?   Grace So basically every night I smear on some lactic acid, which is very hard about keeping your skin cheap. And then I do some like a retinol cream or whatever, and then I put on some hydration, but my skin is very, very dry, especially in the winter. And I'm in New York now, which means I'm in heating. So it's a very dry air. So I decided to try this out and oh, it goes on. It's like very thick. You know, I'm working on a show called Survival of the Fittest, so we like it thick. And so I smeared it on and oh my God, I woke up in the morning and my skin felt so buttery and they want you to rinse it off in the morning. So I was just like, okay, whatever feels buttery now, but when I get in the shower and I run there, it's going to feel like my normal ass dry skin again. But no, I rinsed it off and my skin still felt very hydrated, very soft, and yeah, it was just a really lovely thing. So now instead of being fat that I left my favorite overnight mask in L.A., I discovered this brand new one, which is really, really lovely, smells great, very hydrating. So, you know, I took a negative situation. I turned it into a positive.   Amy I agree with that. You definitely did. And, yeah, we need to be luxuriating in our skin. Yeah, why not? It sounds great.   Grace And so what is your antidote this week, Amy?   Amy Well, this is hilarious. It's actually kind of tied to yours. You know, I've been coming through with the real basic antidotes, but it's like when I'm thinking of, like, a choice that I make as opposed to a thing that I just do by routine or like that's in my schedule or that I wrote down on my to do list. But I'm like, This is a choice I'm making. This actually has become an antidote for me during production. I shower at night. I'm mostly like a morning shower. I like to shower to start my day to wake me up. But during production, our days start very early. So like my pick up on Monday is at 5:45 a.m.. So that means I got to wake up before that. So my antidote during production is that I shower at night and it kind of has like a twofold thing for me is that I get to kind of wash the day away like you're moving around. I sweat no matter what. Like, you're just, like, walking around really quickly, all day long, you're running back and forth. But by the end of the day, I feel like a little weird. Like, you know, it's just like, physically, I'm like I'm kind of, like murky, let's say, all over. And so showering at night is such like, I always think of a shower as something that wakes me up. But I will say that during production, I'm so damn tired, nothing is going to like, Oh, I can't sleep now. So I'm like, I shower at night and then I get to go to bed feeling really fresh and I'm not climbing in my bed all grimy. I'm like getting bad, feeling really, really good. And because it's winter, it's like cool sheets on my warm skin. I'm just like, Ooh, I love this. And then I haven't done an overnight mask. I've been washing my face in the shower, then I wash it in the morning, but now I'm like, Oh, maybe I should do an overnight mask and then just wash my face in the morning. And that'll still be like a refreshing little me moment before I start my day. But yeah, I love both are antidotes. Great, because they're both so simple and doable, but they are about like kind of like snatch and a little bit of self-care back from a busy day. And I just love that they're both about taking care of our bodies, which are the vessels through which we do all our work.   Grace And literally, you're teaching me something to I mean, I sometimes shower at night, but yeah, we have to get up bad early, bitch. Man, I'm not showering at night right now because, yeah, what I'm doing is like waking myself up like an extra 20 minutes early so I can have in the shower before work. Because even though I don't feel like it at that hour in the morning, I'm not going to penalize anybody else for that.   Amy Yeah.   Grace And no. But yeah, I'm going to start showering at night too.   Amy Yeah. Nice. Well, listeners, if you guys tried any of our antidotes at home, share them with us using the hashtag. That's my antidote. Or leave us a voicemail at 8336843683. And we'll be back after the break.   Grace Welcome back to The Antidote. We have a special guest today. Who is it, Amy?   Amy Our guest today is an actress, podcaster and beauty maven. You know her luscious bass from Netflix's Dear White People, NBC's Grand Crew and the movie Bad Hair. And she just debuted the first original podcast from the Oprah Winfrey Network called Trials Two Triumphs. She is still basking in newlywed bliss, the picks on idea. She loves therapy, documentaries and being an inspiration in every way she can get cozy. Take your plastic off the sofa and please welcome the Multi-hyphenate talent. Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Oh, yes. I mean, I. I mean, you guys have another career in life. I mean, you guys are going to be hosting the Oscars.   Amy From your lips to God's ears.   Grace From your lips to God's ears. Okay. You know.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins I mean. That was fantastic. I don't know if I've ever been intro'd any better.   Amy Well, you are easy to intro because that's how fantastic you are.   Grace I mean, everything we said was true.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Y'all got me feeling like Beyoncé.   Amy That's why I had to sprinkle some references in there. Because you's a queen.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Oh, thank you my sisters. Yes. Oh, I'm so excited to be here.   Grace Thank you. We're excited to have you. Well, she's very, very impressive, isn't she, Amy? But we aren't here to talk about your many, many, many accomplishments. We are here to get deep.   Amy Yeah, yeah. Let's check in first. How are you feeling today? Like, for real? Not small talk. Is there anything weighing on you? Making you feel good?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Here's the tea. I am feeling amazing.   Amy Yes.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins It is. No, I really am. And I'm really happy that I. You know, last week I didn't feel amazing. Yesterday I did not feel amazing. I legit had like I was like kind of moping around, but I'm sad. I kind of start like, yeah, dragging my feet and like, you know, honestly, a lot of it's unconscious, but my husband Darryl will notice he was like, What's wrong? And I was like, I don't know what's wrong. And, and I, you know, I, I'm getting better at doing like. America has a problem, everyone. oh, yes. I mean, you know, here's the thing. I think it's all of the things, but I think I was just feeling really overwhelmed. And I'm one of those people that, like, I don't I'm trying to get better at feeling the hard stuff in the moment rather than letting it kind of seep in more and more. And so I didn't. So I let it out. I had a good cry and I feel fantastic. Today is the first of the month. Yeah. You know, bills are paid. You know, I look good. I smell good. Yeah.   Grace Okay, we can confirm she looks good as f---. Okay.   Amy Yeah, and she looks like she smells good. You know, we haven't gotten into smellavision yet, but. Yeah, I buy it.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins But, you know, I really this month, it's kind of taken me eight months of the year to do it. But this month I really have that feeling of like I feel extremely motivated to really feel build this month up with good death. I feel deeply inspired by I love that.   Amy I mean, I do think there's, you know, maybe it's the Renaissance, the fact we are in a period of like a bad like a black bitch renaissance. We are literally in that period right now.   Grace I just wanted to say I really love what you said, because I do think that every day that we wake up, we do kind of have a choice. Like, I love how you are already like framing your entire mom to be like, I'm going to fill this month up with goodness. And I bet because you have declared that you definitely will.   Amy Let's keep the good vibes going, y'all. We need that right now. This show is called The Antidote because life is hard and we all need different antidotes to deal with the bullsh--. So tell us, Ashley, what is your antidote? In other words, what is something non-work-related that's bringing you joy this week or this month?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins I am committing to doing Hot Girl Walks every day.   Amy I need more info about.   Grace What's a hot girl walk?   Amy What's a hot girl walk?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Oh my goodness. So actually my friend JP Jennifer Pauline, who's just one of the most wonderful human beings in the world. She. So she invited me on a hot girl walk. Right. This is such an L.A. story. So she invited she was like, girl, we got to go for a walk. And I was like, yes. And I thought she was just like coining it that herself. You know? And I was like, that's what's up. But then she was like, No, it's a thing. So then, of course, I went to, you know where. Tiktok.   Amy Yes.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Of course.   Grace Where the children tell us what's cool. Yes.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Because I don't know what's going on. I'd be like, okay, let me go to Texas. And it's a whole trend that's going on where it's for anybody. But I you know, this this girl, I forgot her name, but she started this thing called a hot girl walks where you walk. Well, for her, it was four miles a day.   Amy Four miles? Oh, it's physically hot. I see.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Yea, I don't think I can do four miles a day because that seems like a lot like I think, you know, if you live somewhere like New York, you can easily do that day in two days, whatever. But the point is, it's not about how far you go, how long you go. It's just about committing to going on a walk. That is not. The goal is not to change anything physically about yourself. The goal is really just to spend time with yourself and to think about yourself as being sexy and confident and strong and all of the good things you can think about yourself. And she suggests while doing so, listen to a podcast she actually has. That is like the thing you should do. And I, you know, I did it today and I get why the kids are doing it. I mean, I feel I mean, I feel lifted. Yeah, I am together. I'm gathered. I feel so great. I feel so great. And I think a lot of times, you know, I'm always, like, working out for, like, the physical part of it, you know, and not just because. I want to feel good or just spend time with myself, but it doesn't always have to be like strenuous exercise. Like I work out. It can just be I took a walk, 4.8, nine mile, you know. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't have to be a whole thing.   Amy You know, the best part about it, like the coining of it, of a hot girl. What? To me, I was like, Oh, I want to feel hot like my beautiful hot while I'm walking, as opposed to feeling like I'm working, if you will. Yeah, because I do a lot of walking, like you said, for exercise, but just to like be with myself and like look around, take in my surroundings, like enjoy my body's movement. I'll do a lot of that. And now I want to.   Grace That is so cool because you know what? I stopped walking as much because during like the early days of the pandemic, we still in this pandemonium, and now we got monkeypox. Okay? But we're about to talk about that right now.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins I cannot with the monkeypox.   Grace But during that time, I remember, you know, I was working at Insecure with this queen. And I remember we would have our our break for lunch. And I would always I would eat first and then I would go for a walk just to get out of the house for a bit. But I have stopped doing that so much. I mean, I love walking. I lived in New York for 15 years and I moved to this part of L.A. in particular so I could walk to the grocery store, walk to target, whatever. Right, right. But I stopped taking walks for pleasure. And I think this is a lovely reminder that I did enjoy it. Like sometimes I'll be walking down the street. I was like, one of those crazy people you would know was in my headphones because I would be either singing it loud or I would stop for a moment for a little dance break. Yeah, I didn't give a f---. I was just like. You can look at me if you want to.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins I love it. I love it. But that's the goal. Like, get back to that, you back to that. Like that's what I'm on. And.   Amy We're going to do.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins That's my antidote.   Amy I love that. Like Grace. We're going to go for a hot girl walk.   Grace Let's go for our girl walk. I mean, I won't make you hike because I know you don't like that, but you can go.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins No, it's a walk not a hike. It's not a hot girl hike.   Amy Well, now, since we're talking a little just a little bit, we'll get off the pandemic a little bit. But you got married in the pandemic. And I want to know, like the pandemic was like a testing ground. Yes, it was a testing ground for relations. Some somehow got further apart and some got closer together. Are there any lessons or things you've learned about sharing space with your partner during this crazy time?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Oh, my goodness, I. I think the biggest like lesson is to be grateful for the time. You know, like Daryl and I had the perspective of, like. I remember early on in the pandemic, I remember he said to me, We better cherish this because we're probably never going to have it again. And he's right. You know, I don't know. You know, another time, hopefully we are not stuck in the house again in the same way during a pandemic. Right.   Amy Hold my collar y'all, I'm like, oh, my God, give me out this house.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins You all. She started hyperventilating. Okay. No. And but but I'm grateful that I had a partner who rather had been lamenting and was like, This is great. We get to spend time and, you know, just do things like we would dance around the house or, you know, like, I don't know, just binge watch things all day that we just don't have the time to do anymore, you know, stay up late. Yeah. You know, until the wee hours of morning into the wee hours of the morning. Just so many things that we look back on now and are like, that was a really crazy but beautiful time for us. And I think that it really so much good came out of it. You know, in the pandemic, we bought our first home, we got married, we honeymooned. We, you know, we've done so many, so many amazing things. And I think it taught us to like. What's for you? Even a pandemic can't stop humans. You know, like this ship is going to keep sailing, this ball is going to keep rolling. And it really is just about how you choose to receive it.   Grace What was your favorite thing like from that time, spending time in the house with each other? What was your favorite thing that you guys did together during that time?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins My husband Darryl's from Detroit, MI.   Grace Me too. Do you know where he's from in Detroit? Like which part?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Yeah, he's from the east side of Detroit. Okay, cool. He grew up off of Hannah. Yeah, he went to Cass.   Grace Oh, he went to Cass Tech, okay.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Okay, so he's like a real. He's a michigan guy. Okay, I went to Howard, and, you know, a lot of my a lot of my friends at Howard were from the Midwest and, you know, Detroit or Chicago. And so early on in Howard, I learned how to like hustle and all that type of stuff. So I found out in the pandemic, which I've known Daryl for almost 13 years, so I don't know how this went over my head. He didn't know how to hustle. And so I taught him, Oh.   Amy That's incredible.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Sorry, Daryl, I'm exposing you to all the Detroit people. But I taught him how to hustle. Yes in our at the time, we were in, like, a little cute, but like a little non air conditioning apartment in Beverly Hills at the time. And so we were just hustling up in that one bedroom apartment and it was it was just like and I recorded us like I got my phone up in a row, like I have my hair wrapped, but I just was like, this is a memory we'll look back on and be like, Oh. What this is insane.   Grace You taught him how to hustle, that's so cute.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins That was a fun night. Yeah, yeah, that was a fun night.   Grace I mean, he should take you to the car show, like the auto show sometime, cause that's the big Detroit thing. Yes.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins I got to do that. So many things.   Amy I feel like that period in your life, like, obviously I don't I don't want to forget that the pandemic, a lot of people experience a lot of loss, but all of this like is about surrender. And you talk about that so much about how to surrender. And sometimes you don't have control. I mean, none of us had control over what was happening. Those of us who lost a lot and those of us who had the luxury to get introspective and like really sit with ourselves and you really got to surrender and have a partner through it, which is really beautiful. Yeah. And as we're, like growing now, are there ways that you find surrender in your day to day, even like the processing of emotions that you talked about, like having a rough month and having to cry it out? Is that a form of surrender for you? Like sitting in it.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins For sure. I think, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about surrender. And like you said, it's a if you know me, if you listen to anything I say, I'm always saying I'm trying to get better at the art of surrender. But what I'm realizing is that, like, there's the step after surrender, right? So like, surrendering is giving it up and saying, okay, you know, Jesus, take the money, but. On the other side of the step after surrender, I think, is acceptance. And you have to accept whatever may come from the surrender. You can't surrender and then lack acceptance. Yeah. Because then you're kind of in the same between. Right. You're still not where you need to be. And so that's that's what I'm trying to work on. Tubas, like both of them. It's like surrendering and then being confident about the acceptance of whatever may come. And I do that in sometimes it's crying it out, sometimes it's talking it out. Sometimes it's actually saying it out loud, like. This is too much for me. You got it. Wow. Look, I can't. I can't do this or. You know what? I trust you more than I trust myself. So please, you know, order my steps. Sometimes it's bad, but I just, you know, honestly, surrender is a muscle. It's a muscle muscle that we all have to work.   Grace And the process of surrender, I really think, like in our work, in our business, I think it's so important to have that kind of perspective because there's so much that we cannot control. You know, you cannot control like who greenlights your stuff or you can't control like when you go into an audition whether you're going to get it or not. But like that act of surrendering, knowing that you're going to be okay or like that you're giving it over to a higher power to help you deal with it like that. I think it's so important rather than trying to control everything, because we in our human powers cannot we cannot control it.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins We just can't can't do it. No.   Amy Have you taken any good trips recently now that we get back outside?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Oh, my gosh. So I just got back from Austin, Texas.   Amy Oh, I love Austin.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Do you? It's not, you know, I don't know.   Amy Okay, well, here's what I'll say. Here's what I say. I'm from Texas, I'm from Dallas. And Austin is like the to me, it's the best parts of Dallas and with a little bit of California sprinkled in. So that's why I like Austin. But I'm curious, what's your take on it? I mean, I don't want you to, like, slammed the city.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Well, no. no, no. I'm not going to slam the city. I my first time going was in, oh, 2017. We actually premiered Dear White People. There was my first time there at South by Southwest. And then I went I just went this past weekend on a my 15 and my 15 year anniversary trip with my line sisters. Yes. And my sister. So so it was amazing because I was with some of my favorite people on the face of the planet and we just had a good time. We're always going to make a good time wherever we go. So I did that. I've actually been traveling a time this year. I was in New York and May in like New York. I just.   Amy That's Grace's city.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins New York makes me feel I could cry thinking about New York. Something about New York.   Grace Thank you Ashley.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins I love that city. New York. If I literally would wake up like, good morning, New York.Like, I just I was skipping down the street, it was raining, and I was just like I was like that that video of Drew Barrymore in the rain.   Amy Yes.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins That's what I look like. And I wonder everyone's like clowning her for it. But I'm like, no, I understand why she felt like that. So I was in New York and then yeah, but I mean, I've been to New York many times, but something about this last trip, I was there for work, but I kind of made into like play and I just fell in love with New York all over again.   Grace New York is kind of like one of those places where, like, I lived there for 15 years before I moved to L.A. and New York was kind of one of those places. Like, I would still like ten, 12, 13, 14, 15 years, and I would just be walking down the street and I would like look up and see, like the Chrysler Building all lit, lit up. And I was like, Wow, I'm here. You know, I did it. I made it here. You know, it's like there's there's always just. Such a special energy that's there. So I completely get it in New York in the room.   Amy You mean, you don't do that on the 405?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Question. Do you ever feel like that in LA?   Amy You don't do it on the 405? When you in traffic?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Have you had the feeling of like, I'm here, I've made it like do you have that here.   Grace I mean, it's just a different feeling. I mean, like New York just has, like, things that you can look at. Whereas L.A., sometimes when I am like, you know, it's a pretty sunny day out and I'm driving down like a row of palm trees and I can see the Hollywood sign in the distance. I'm just like, okay, you cue L.A., like, Yeah, I'm here. I made it. You know, I used to always dream about Los Angeles as a little girl, so 100% I do have those moments. But yeah, right now I'm in a missing New York moment. So that really spoke to me.   Amy Wow, Ashley, I feel so much better now that we've talked to you.   Grace Yes, she's right.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Ditto.   Grace It's still 2022, and it's due in 2022 things. But we feel so much better now that we've chatted with you today.   Amy Yes. Yes. Do you have anything coming up you want to tell us about anything you'd like to plug? You can even be something you just love, not something you've created.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Oh, my goodness. Well, obviously, I have my podcast new episodes every Monday. Anywhere you listen to podcast trials to triumphs.   Amy And last but not least, where can people find you on the Internets?   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins Oh, yes, you can find me at Ashley Blaine, B-L-A-I-N-E. Ashley spelled the original way. On Instagram and Twitter. Yeah, that's it. Yeah.   Amy Well, thank you so much, Ashley. This has been great talk.   Grace Thank you so much, Ashley.   Ashley Blaine Featherson Jenkins I adore you two. Thank you.   Grace Thank you. Bye. Okay to close us out. We're doing our creative tap in, which is our segment about creativity. Amy, are you ready for this week's quote?   Amy As ready as I'll ever be.   Grace Okay. Here we go. A creative life is an amplified life. That is by Elizabeth Gilbert. Say one more time. A creative life is an amplified life. Elizabeth Gilbert.   Amy Okay. I love Elizabeth Gilbert. She's the author of Big Magic. Right. We both know that. Yeah. Yeah, we both love that book. You told me about it. That's why I read it as you recommended it to me. So I'm a I'm a Liz Gill fan because of you. And I'm going to get a little literal on the quote amplified is like to increase the volume of turn something up. Mm hmm. So a creative life is a life that's been turned up a notch. And I agree with that. And I don't think it means having a creative career like you don't have to have a creative career to have a creative life. It's just how you creatively put things in your life, like what you do to express yourself creatively and to live creatively and to switch up your routine every now and then is going to like change, you know, raise the volume, raise the vibration on your life. So I think that is a very simple like, simply put quotes. But being creative raises your vibration is sort of how I am reading it. And I believe that is true. I strive to be creative, even beyond writing, however I can, even if not every day weekly, to try and just, like, keep my vibration high. And so I'm going to remember that. Liz. What about you, Grace? What does it make you think?   Grace Well, it makes me think about how often as writers, what we do is notice and amplify, you know? Oh, so we so we notice things that are going on in front of our eyes, in front of the world, you know? So I might walk down the street and just see, like, a guy or a girl like me dancing by herself. So I get to be I say down the street, and I make a character out of that. I'm just like, Oh, why is she dancing? Who is she? Where is she from? Is she happy, as she said? Is she dancing it out because, you know, something that happened in her life or is she just so joyously happy that she's dancing down the street like? So I think our job as artists at times is to take the things that happen in our lives, the things that we see, the things that we experience, and we amplify them to make art. So it makes me think of that, but it also makes me think of how blessed I feel to have creativity in my life. Yeah, because I feel like because I have creativity in my life, there are so many things that I can process, good or bad, through the lens of my creativity. Like even if I have a really bad experience, if I have a bad date, which I often did in New York, I was always on some bad dates, some man was ruining my day. But at the even in the midst of it, I would be like. You know, what is this, a character? You know what? I'm going to put this in something I write someday. So even though even when the bad things happen to me, I have the gift of being able to process it through my art. So when I hear creativity, a creative life is an amplified life. It just makes me think of all the ways that I can use what happens to me, good or bad, to to amplify, to create something that people can find some sort of relate ability in. Because, you know, we always say in writing that the specific is universal. So the things that happen in our everyday lives, if we can get specific, there's often people who can relate to it on some level, even if it's not exactly so. So, yeah, that's it kind of makes me think about, about the gift of being able to process trauma and joy through the lens of creativity.   Amy It was a simple quote, but I really love both our interpretations of it.   Grace Uh. Me too. Thanks for listening to the antidote. We hope this injected a little bit of joy into your week. I know it did mine. How about you, Amy?   Amy I feel good, girl. We should do this again sometime. Oh, we'll be here next week.   Grace And in the meantime, if you'd like to follow us on social, follow me. Grace. At Gracyact. That's G-R-A-C-Y-A-C-T.   Amy And follow me. Amy at AmyAniobi. That's A-M-Y-A-N-I-O-B-I and follow the show at theeantidotepod.   Grace That's thee with two E's.   Amy If you like, feeling good about yourself. Please subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.   Grace Goodbye.   Amy And next time you're out for a walk, twerk it out a little bit. And the antidote is hosted by us, Amy Ameobi and Grace Edwards. The show's production team includes senior producer Se'era Spragley Ricks and associate producer Jess Penzetta.   Grace Our executive producer is Erica Kraus, and our editor is Erika Janik. Sound Mixing by Alex Samson.   Amy Digital Production by Mijoe Sahiouni. Talent Booking by Marianne Ways. Our theme music was composed and produced by TT the artist and Cosmo The Truth.   Grace APM Studio executives in charge are Chandra Kavati, Alex Schaffert and Joanne Griffith. Concept created by Amy Aniobi and Grace Edwards.   Amy Send us your antidotes at AntidoteShow.org and remember to follow us on social media at theeantidotepod. That's thee with two E's.   Grace The Antidote is a production of American Public Media.   Amy What, what!

NB: I neglected to clarify that the other Brad Leithauser essay, The Space of One Breath, was not about the Fifth World Chess Championship but rather the Fifth World Computer Chess Championship. Great essay!Get bonus episodes by subscribing to the SLEERICKETS Secret Show!SLEERICKETS t-shirts and hoodies are now on sale, in new colors, and with the logo available in black and in white, and even in a new skull-free version, just for Zara. They look good!Some of the topics mentioned in this episode:– The Body Politic by Brian Platzer– Matt Wall– Kasparov Beats Deep Thought by Brad Leithauser– The Space of One Breath by Brad Leithauser– The Sinquefield Cup– Magnus Carlsen– Hans Niemann– Ding Liren– Ian Neponiachtchi– Hikaru Nakamura– Alireza Firouzja– Richard Rapport– Judit Polgar– The If I Speak I Am in Big Trouble Meme– Robots Are Writing Poetry, and Many People Can't Tell the Difference by Carmine Starnino– Elon Musk's Tweet re Anal Chess Cheating– My delightful former student the violin prodigy, Amy Oh (@lankyhunchback on TikTok)– Bobby Fischer's legendary game against Donald Byrne (The Game of the Century)– Six-Figure Artworks, by a Fifth Grader by Alex Hawgood– Of Gods and Machines by Stephen Marche– Jimmy Chin– The Alpinist– Outliers by Malcolm GladwellEmail: sleerickets [at] gmail [dot] comTwitter: @BPlatzerSister Podcast (Alice): Poetry SaysEratosphere (Cameron): W T ClarkMusic by ETRNLArt by Daniel Alexander Smith

Starting July 5th, AP score reports start to become available! Don't miss a quick pre-holiday message from Derek with the details on when and where all the different reports are ready for download. Press play on this special bonus episode of Coordinated. Back-to-School Workshop: https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/d/bkqj3j/ AP Score Reports for Educators: https://scores.collegeboard.org/Student AP Scores Website: https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/view-scoresLogo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

You know your body. You know when something isn't quite right. Your symptoms have a cause and you shouldn't accept comfortability. Join a conversation on recognizing discomfort and making a change with a certified nutritional practitioner and professional basketball player.  If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:The support and lifestyle of women in professional basketball Starting before being the expertSpace and grace in the comparison game Your optimal health shouldn't be a dreamIdentifying and getting over our fear of failure. Episode References/Links:Flo By Alisa VittiIG @coachamyraeGuest Bio:Hello! I'm Amy, a retired professional athlete who was diagnosed with my 2nd autoimmune disorder in 2016. I went from playing professional basketball all over the world to battling professional fatigue and not recognizing myself in the mirror. From my rock bottom moment, I felt a nudge that told me there had to be a better way & I relied on my mindset built within my athletic career to pave the way to feeling like myself again--and even better! Currently, I'm certified as a Nutritional Therapy Practitioner (NTP), specializing in thyroid health, striving to support women in advocating for their health, getting their energy back, and feeling like themselves again  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  Hey, Be It listener. What's up? Okay, so I just love, I love the way the world works. I love that how you can meet people and have conversations with people and learn something you never knew you'd have. And I don't think we do that enough. So if you are feeling stuck, if you are feeling alone, if you are feeling like uninspired. I want you to have a conversation with someone you don't know. I want you to ask them questions. So if you're like, "How do I do that? I'm so scared. I'm an introvert." Look at the local meetups, look at Eventbrite, look at like opportunities that are happening for a networking situation. And then you're gonna find someone who makes eye contact with you. And you're gonna smile at them. And then you're just going to ask them questions, you don't have to a... you don't have to say anything. You can just ask them questions like think 40 Old Virgin just like ask a question, if you don't know what to say ask a question. And the reason is, people do like to talk about themselves, but also going to learn something about somebody. And I think we underestimate how inspiring it can be to learn another person's story and what they're going through. And even if it maybe not inspiring, but maybe you feel seen, and feeling seen as something that we all truly, truly want. And so my next guest for you this week is Amy, Amy Denson, and I am really excited for you to hear her story. And I want you to listen to her story because maybe you don't have this story. Like maybe you weren't this like professional and NB like women's basketball player. I certainly wasn't. But as I listened to her story, I thought about my health story. And I thought about some of the health stories of people who have listened to the show and written in. And I truly think that a lot of times we think we're alone, and this is only happening to us. And I know for myself, when I started actually sharing my story about my stomach, I started of find out how many people had stomach issues. And I wish I had started talking about earlier, it was embarrassing. So I didn't want to but I wouldn't have felt alone. And so as you listen to today's interview, I really want you to hear her story and see yourself in it. And I, I really am excited for you to hear what she's up to, which is excited about next, how she got on this mission that she's on. And also, of course, you know, I love those BE IT action items that hers are really cool. And they're going to challenge you in the best ways. So after this message here, Amy.Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.All right, Be It listeners I have a very special special guest Amy Denson here. Amy has an incredible story, I've be... I'm really excited for you to hear it because I think it's really easy to think, "Well, it must be easy for them. But I've got these things going on or I have this setback or this obstacle." And we can kind of let those obstacles become just like a reason to not do something. And Amy is certainly not letting that happen. So, I'm excited for you to be inspired by her and hear how she did it. So Amy, tell everyone who you are and how you got here.Amy Denson 3:42  Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and to meet you. Um, so my story is, you know, it's all of ours probably could go on forever. But I grew up playing basketball and I always knew that in my heart. That was what I was supposed to do. And I you know, felt most in my skin and confident and as a pretty tall, broad shouldered, strong young woman who did not fit in in any other scene. Basketball was really home for me. I received a full ride scholarship to Arizona State University. We did some amazing things there. We created history there. We were the first team to make it into the Sweet 16 tournament of the NCAA tournament. (Lesley: Whoa! That's a insane journey.) Oh, yeah. So. Yeah, yes. And it was really cool because we had a really young team. So for the majority of my career, I got to play with the same people which is very, very special. (Lesley: That's incredible) Yeah, and then after I graduated, I just wasn't done and I signed with an agent and then I ended up playing overseas professionally for eight years. So I played in Puerto Rico for four seasons. I played in Australia for three years. I played in Poland, Romania and Spain. And so ...Lesley Logan 5:04  What a life? Like how (Amy: Yeah) cool. I so when we moved to Las Vegas there, I mean, LA had a WNBA team but I'm not going to downtown. So but the Las Vegas team is like (Amy: The Aces) ... Yeah, the Aces. (Amy: Yeah) It's a short stint down the street actually from (Amy: Yeah) where I live, like really close and my Dad and I would go we'd like, "Oh, hey, there's a game today. Let's go." And it was Brad came and it was so fun we get, we actually probably get the worst seats in the house. And most people think but like it's just the side of this of the of the basket. So it's like all the action is there the whole game (Amy: Yeah) and it's like, so fun. (Amy: That's so awesome.) Those women are amazing. I mean, (Amy: Yeah) as were you but like, it's kind of crazy. I don't think people realize that. (Amy: No) So many female basketball players spend most of their life playing for multiple teams at the same time and around the world. Like you're, they're not (Amy: Yeah) making NBA wages, which is really annoying.Amy Denson 5:53  No. And that's the thing. Yeah. And so really the WNBA I mean, it's, you know, still probably the best league in the world, but women make their money overseas. And so unless you know, do get some sponsorships here as well as your pay. You know, if you do have WNBA on your resume, you can make pretty decent money overseas and overseas is much different as far as like really even support wise for women. And I don't think that women, even young women in college, understand maybe they do more so now but when I was in college, how many opportunities there are to play at a next level? And yes, sometimes, I mean, there's just so many different options, maybe that just means you get paid, you know, a little bit extra, but you get your room and board and you know, a couple of meals, but you you're basically traveling for free, right, you're seeing the world for free. I was able to make a pretty decent wage. And I you know, really kind of moved up the ranks and played in some really amazing conferences against some really amazing athletes. And I think, you know, people may not like to, you know, I think put the women's game down quite a bit as far as pace and athleticism and all that kind of stuff. But I do think, I don't think people understand the amount of effort it takes to be professional edit anything. (Lesley: Yeah. No I don't think so.) Right. And then you add anything physical in there. And yeah, physical is a huge part of it. But the once you're at a professional level, it's the mental game, right? It's an emotional game. It's, it's a, you know, the battle to how do I, how do I beat my opponent? That's probably just as good or better than me, you know. SoLesley Logan 7:27  Right. That might, that you might end up being on the team with in another time.Amy Denson 7:32  Right. Yeah, so it was a beautiful experience. I actually, I really miss traveling, like to my core right now. I just I lived out of a suitcase and had a laptop for eight years. And it just was the most amazing experience. It was hard. And it was isolating at times, especially (Lesley: Yeah) with language barriers, but I got to get paid and travel in my gift for my gift. And so I was so blessed because I got to live out my first dream. (Lesley: Yeah.) And I don't know how many people can really, you know, say that when, as you're growing up, and it's just something that I always knew that I was going to do. And it was, there was no doubt or question in my mind.Lesley Logan 8:12  Yeah, I think that thank you for saying that. Because I do think a lot of people make sacrifices or they think, "Okay, I went to college, and I gotta do this, I gotta go be a grown up." And like, you know, you are one of the few people who's like, "You know, I'm gonna keep doing my passion." And, and yeah, it's not making you the money that's going to like, put a house on the ground or anything like that. But it did allow you to see the world and experience the highs and the lows from that. And so, you know, I cut you off in your story. Like, what made you leave? Did you just like injure out? Did you age out? Did you get (Amy: Yeah) tired of what was that? What was the next step?Amy Denson 8:47  I don't know why, but I always had it in my mind that I would probably retire by around age 30. And I was really, I was just kind of burnt out. I was really tired. I'd been playing year around for a long time. I just needed a break more so emotionally and mentally. And I also was getting into a serious relationship with my best friend who is my now my husband. And I just felt in my heart. It was time. (Lesley: Yeah.) And so when I came back to the United States, it was it was so hard because I hadn't lived here for eight years. I couldn't get a job. Nobody would look at my professional history as a job. So it looks like to them I had gra... unless they had a sports background. Like I'd graduated college and then I just showed back up when I was you know 30. (Lesley: That's so interesting.) Yeah, it was just ...Lesley Logan 9:45  I never would have thought about that. Like it would be so it's like your resume like doesn't start and so they're like, you have no experience except for that you (Amy: Right) like so much experience like what it takes to be (Amy: Right) on a team, what it takes to win a game like you know, like you're right unless they know sports, they don't see a talent, skill set there.Amy Denson 10:00  Yeah. And so there was like a major, major identity crisis. You know, I didn't really understand or know how to introduce myself without saying, "Hi, Amy, I'm played professional basketball." It was it was just everything, you know, it was my pride, it was my joy, it was everything. And so to now really kind of step back and, and not only not be acknowledged for that effort, but really have to start over not only like career wise, but for my for myself, like, who am I without basketball, (Lesley: Yeah) which was very hard, and I knew it was going to be hard to retire. But it did not know how hard it was gonna be. I didn't know, I didn't realize the grieving process I would have. (Lesley: Yeah.) And so I just kind of floated around, I got my personal training and certification so that well, this is obviously the next thing. I still want to be active. You know, I didn't know what to do. And ...Lesley Logan 10:52  But you know, what all I see is like, of course, like, who wouldn't want to train with like, I mean ...Amy Denson 10:56  Yeah, why not? I want to work out. Let's work out together, you know.Lesley Logan 10:59  Yeah. Who would want to train with a WNBA player or a women's (Amy: Yeah) basketball player? Like, I like that would be a great calling card. (Lesley laughs) (Amy: Yeah, exactly.) I mean, you'd have to want to do it. So how, so you went and got your training? (Amy: Yeah) And how did that go?Amy Denson 11:11  It went okay. It was just, it was just a hard time, it was a really hard time, it was a rough transition for a couple years, I ended up landing in a college coaching position for a small division one at college in Oregon. And I thought, "Well, duh, this is what I'm supposed to do, hello." And I actually, I loved it, I really think that it could have been a really good path for me, it's just again, for women's basketball, the money is nothing, which is not everything, but we've got to live (Lesley: We got a paying bills. Yeah) We gotta pay. And it's just, you know, it just, I wasn't in a very good working environment as far as with the other adults, unfortunately. And this is when I started to really experience some symptoms that I wasn't used to. So I only knew how to work out one way. If I was dealing with anything stress wise, you know, lifewise, for me working out with, you know, it's a much as a mental and emotional release as it is a physical, so I only knew how to work out one way, which is like, balls to the wall. Like, if you're not close to puking, and you push through the wall, all of these things that we had, like we did to (Lesley: Yeah) stay in shape, right. But I noticed like it wasn't really quote unquote, "working" like it used to, I noticed, like I was just so fatigued, I was really, really high stressed. I just felt like, emotionally a little out of control. And (Lesley: Yeah) I wasn't sure I don't know how to describe that I just did not feel like myself. And ...Lesley Logan 12:45  And I can resonate with that though, Amy because it's like, a you like you're already in a transition of some kind anyways, like your life as you knew it has changed. And you're, it's not like it was like easy to step back into the world. And so then you're like trying different careers out. And then also the way you train isn't working the way it used to. And also like, our bodies are getting older, like there is this weird thing because I was an athlete too. And then like, you hit 30 and you're like, "Wow, I can't do two a days anymore. Should I be doing two a days?" (Amy: Right) But like, I also don't know a different way. (Amy: Right) So, (Amy: Yeah) you know, you're kind of going, like, in, in your health and your workouts in every part of your life. Everything is different and out of control. So of course you're gonna feel stressed. (Amy: Yeah) And all these things, and it's hard to articulate when you're in it.Amy Denson 13:31  Absolutely. And so I started to go to a couple doctors for some help. And, you know, just kept getting the all, "Eat less and workout more," duh. (Lesley laughs) Cool. (Lesley: Okay thanks.) I just really felt like in my experience. You know, after seeing multiple doctors, I started to lose my hair. I started my hair was thinning. I just noticed all of these things. And I was like, "My God I just ..." I just feel off, right? I just feel off. I went I was just you know, as we do, I was like on Google and this and that. So I I read that a dermatologist could help with hair. So I went to a dermatologist who told me I was prematurely balding at 33 and I was like, "Are you sure? Like is like really?" And so I ended up going to an endocrinologist who one of the top and in the field for Oregon. And I had gone to the ER because I had I have nosebleeds or I had nosebleeds that I couldn't get stopped. So I had to go to the ER. And when I leaned back for them to, to basically cauterize my nose, I have two huge nodules on my neck and the guy was like, "Have you gotten those checked out?" And I said, "No, I didn't even know that they were there." So I went to this endocrinologist. We did an ultrasound and she's like, "Yep, you've got Hashimotos." And I was like, "Okay, what, what's Hashimotos?" And she's like, "Well, it's an autoimmune disorder where your body is attacking your thyroid tissue" because it thinks that there's a foreign invader, something's going on. I'm like, "Okay, well, does this explain, you know." Because a lot of times Hashimotos and hypothyroidism go hand in hand. "So does this explain me having cold hands and feet?" So poor circulation? "Does this explain me losing hair? Does this explain me gaining weight specifically around my midsection? Does this explain me feeling like I'm losing my GD mind?" She said, "Yeah." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, great. So like, what do we do about it?" She goes, "Nothing. (Lesley: No) We wait, we wait until your body attacks your thyroid so much that it doesn't work anymore. And then we will start hormones."Lesley Logan 15:31  That is not an option. That is, so you just have to suffer?Amy Denson 15:34  And I think, I think it's really interesting because, you know, the way that I was raised to is like, well, she obviously knows more than me, right? Because she's a doctor. (Lesley: Yeah.) And so I walked away from that feeling, obviously very defeated. And also, the way that I approach things as an athlete is like, I'm going to control it as much as I possibly can. So what can I do? What can I do? Not knowing the things that I was doing, were probably escalating it. (Lesley: Yeah) Um, and so it was about two years later that I, we had some people over for Memorial Day, and I got incredibly sick. And I literally remember, like shutting the door that like saying our goodbyes, and as soon as I shut the door, I just started crying. And I just said, "I can't live the rest of my life like this. Something is wrong, something is off. And I need help." (Lesley: Yeah) And from that day forward, that has been my mission. And now that I have more information, because Hashimotos is my actual life, my second autoimmune disorder. And with thyroid related disorders, illnesses, whatever, it's so common, and there's just so much that goes into it. And a lot of it kind of goes against the grain of like our diet culture, workout culture, and all of that. So there's so much mental and emotional stuff that's tied up into that, you know, the two a days or the, you know, anyway, working out, eating less all of that. So, once I kind of started on my own health journey, I've now made it my mission to help other women not feel alone, and really to feel like themselves again, because I really think the biggest thing that's missing right now, in like, our standard medical care system is that we're just there's no empathy. I don't think we're even being heard. (Lesley: Yeah.) And of course, you know, I think a lot of times, which is okay, I'm not saying anything is wrong with medication, but I do think we have to also be aware of everything else that goes into the healing process, besides support for medication. (Lesley: Yeah) I have absolutely nothing against it, if it if it helps people, I am on it. But that's not the only thing that we can't just pop a pill and it be okay, we can't just pop a pill and not address our stress levels.Lesley Logan 17:58  You're... (Amy: You know) that's just it and like, I think, you know, some... one of my, my previous assistant was amazing. And she actually teaches people on how to be their own health advocate, or how to be an advocate for others. (Amy: Yes.) And I think we all like I'm sure, maybe generations younger than us, maybe they they are wise and all knowing that the doctors ... (Amy: Probably, they probably. Yeah) they're they come out knowing that no one knows what they're doing. (Amy: Yes) We, I grew up like the doctor knows they knew everything. (Amy: Well, yeah.) They went to school. They're the most educated person. (Amy: Absolutely.) And I had similar, like health issues where like, they literally like, "Well, you have IBS, so just, you know, eat like this, don't eat these things." I mean, those are very nutritional things. I think I'm probably supposed to eat those. You know, and I wasn't my own advocate, I probably wouldn't, I probably be dead right now, to be honest, because I was just like, suffering so much. And it was I my nutritional levels were so bad that I like had no B 12, no vitamin D, all these things. I think I would probably be divorced. And, and (Amy: Yeah) and a shell of a human. So I want to go back to something though, because you've made it this mission to like really help women who are going through this? Because you're going through this, I think the question is like, how do, how, what were the first steps or what the steps that you took to help other women go through something that you yourself, were still learning? Because I do think a lot of listeners get stuck in that they're like, "Well, I'm not the expert yet. So I can't do the thing that I'm feeling called to do." And you were like, "I'm being called do this." How did you do that? How did you kind of wrap your (Amy: Yeah) head around that?Amy Denson 19:32  Well, I think you know, it really started with obviously my own, getting my own ish together, and I don't have it together. But I do have a lot of knowledge around it. I do have a lot of knowledge around what works for me and what doesn't, which I feel like provides a lot of I don't know security, or when we feel out of control and we don't know what's causing what. It's like we just go down this rabbit hole of symptoms or what did I eat? What did I not eat? How did they move? What did I do different here? And that's all I used to do. And it was just so time consuming and energy sucking and defeating. So I think really, for me, the first step was, if anybody is out there, find some a doctor of some sort that's going to support you and has experience in whatever if you do know your diagnosis or don't know, I found a naturopath that it like changed my life, and I'm still with her today. I think that's your first step. I think me going on my own health journey, and then feeling a little bit better, always helps to like feel like I have capacity to help other people. (Lesley: Yeah) And I really think that the health journey is all it is, is a trial and error, I think we get so stuck in doing the right and wrong things. That it just, it's just like destabilizes us. And it's just trying this, see how this works. How does your body feel in this? Hey, if it doesn't feel good here, let's, let's tweak it and try try this and like just keep continuing to do that along the way with the intention of healing your body or with the intention of supporting your journey supporting your body in that. I think we just we've got to be a little bit more flexible in our thinking, and what we are willing to try it and not try or you know, really not get stuck and what diet worked for for your best friend. And it's not working for you now. I think we really get stuck in food specifically. (Lesley: Yeah.) Where I think that we don't always need to be, we don't need to always label how we eat as a diet. It's just how we eat. (Lesley: Yeah.) You don't need to be in a specific lane all the time. And I think that so, (Lesley: Yeah.) I would just say just being a couple steps ahead. Those couple steps make a really big difference for somebody else. And I (Lesley: Yeah.) always tell myself, "If I could help this person feel 10% better? How would their life improve?" Because when I was at my rock bottom, when I shut that door and said goodbye and started crying, I would have given anything to feel a little bit better. Or I would have given anything to have a little bit more knowledge around, "What the hell is going on with my body?"Lesley Logan 22:13  Yeah, um, I thank you for sharing that because I do I do believe like, people think that they have to be 15 steps ahead, the people that they're going to help. And it's like, you just have to be a couple steps ahead. Like, you know, because 15 steps ahead is like, you know, I know like, well, look like, well let's just talk about we're on a podcast, you're listening to this. Some of the people I look up to have like, a thousand episodes. I'm like, "That is overwhelming. That is like, yes, it's yes, inspiring. Yes, it's showing me the what's possible." But also like to think of it from, I don't know what episode this is going to be while we're recording it, but it's at least 100 and I don't know, eight. And, (Amy: Ah, that'a awesome.) you know, and so that that feels like a big gap. But I was just talking to somebody yesterday who has 300 episodes, and he was giving me some tips. And those felt very doable. He's only a few steps ahead of me, right. So I love that you share that. And I also think it's like not to underestimate like the power that you can help someone even if it's a couple percentage, you know, a little bit, (Amy: Yeah) and then you're because you're working on yourself, you're getting a couple more steps ahead. And so you're bringing (Amy: Right) everybody with you. (Amy: Right.) So thank you for sharing that. And I also think, you know, and I don't know, you'll have to tell me how long was for you. But I don't think a lot of people give the things that they're trying out enough time. (Amy: Absolutely not.) You know, like, Jenn Pike has been on our podcast before. She says, "When it comes to your hormones, it's 100 days. So the things we're doing, you're like, you don't get to even tell me anything for 100 days, like maybe you're gonna feel better right away. But the reality is, is like, it's going to take some time because the you know, like, the stuff we did has already affected what's happening right now."Amy Denson 23:51  Right? You know, it's taken us, you know, for a lot of clients or people that are around me, or that I work with, it's probably, you know, mid 30s, 40s. It's taken, we've been through a lot of shit by now. It's taken us a while to get here. And I don't think we realize just like you said, our habits and actions and everything. It's all led up to this. So in, you know, thinking back, we didn't necessarily get away with eating and drinking and moving a certain way. It's just where we've kind of caught up to this moment. And in this moment, and so, yeah, in our 20s we I feel like we're always in this comparison mode, but you have a family now, we have responsibilities. It looks different now, you know, our stress level is so incredibly high. And we keep addressing everything as, well, it's not mean it's not too high. It's probably normal, right? No, it's absolutely not and we don't realize that, all of that that how that is affecting our health. And even you know, my clients I work with 1 on 1, 6 months is probably the baseline. And that's just getting started. And I think that people feel like at the beginning at the starting line, like six months, like, "Oh my gosh, that's so long." But we're talking about the rest of your life. Six months is nothing and, and I'm not trying to, like, (Lesley: It's like, diminish or...) If you feel bad. Yeah, it make you feel bad, but like, we're just getting started. (Lesley: Oh, yeah.) We're just getting started this and I think that we just have this, you know, I think getting ready for a wedding or getting ready for a vacation or whatever, there's always a start and an end and a start and end, which is creating this yo yo dieting, culture mindset. And it literally like indicates it like as a, our blood pressure's going up and down, up and down, up and down, which is so hard on our body, we've got to instill some consistency within our, our health, within our life. And that comes with time, we never give anything enough time. And if we would just do really tiny things like tiny steps, and did them consistently for 90 days, for 100 days, for six months, for a year, we we discredit the amount of momentum we could build by (Lesley: Yeah) just doing small things, we think we have to start the diet on Monday, we think we have to, you know, start working out five days a week, no excuses, all of this kind of language, which yes, it worked for us at one time, and I was a part of all of that. But if we are going to be sustainable over a life, and you are dealing with health issues, and you have stress in your life, and and and you're a woman, (Lesley: Right) we have to, we have to find a different way.Lesley Logan 26:53  There has been a lot, there's like space and grace, it's like, I think you men... you mentioned it before, like there's comparison in there, we're comparing ourselves to like other people, even our own age, and it's like, like, specifically specifically for you, you have two autoimmune diseases, you said, just like two up two that's a lot. Like one's a lot. Two is different, right? So you can't compare yourself to somebody that have any, just like, I can't compare myself to somebody who never who never had an injury or never like, and I think we're wasting a lot of time there. We're also not giving ourselves credit for what we did do to get here. (Amy: Right. Absolutely.) And, and, you know, you said earlier, like six months sounds like a long time. But like, I dealt with some issues for 10 years, 10 years. And so I can say now that I am like, six years post, like actually got the diagnosis actually figured the thing. Now when I have a flare up, I'm like, "Oh, I know exactly what the trigger is." (Amy: Yes.) I'm stressed out. I'm stressed out and I am not being kind to my body. I need to bring everything all the (Amy: Yeah) cortisol down where and you know, I am I ended up even using this tracking app for my cycle, because I filmed for workout. So I'm there are some weeks where I'm filming 14 workouts, which in the grand scheme of things, it's like an hour of workout. So I so I, it's like the workout for the day, right? But I should not be doing that one of the weeks of everyone, that week, (Amy: Yeah) I should not be doing that I should be like, "Okay, I can go for my walk" I can do you know, like run, but I'm not going to like push myself, that needs to be low impact really kind in my body, stretchy stuff. And so when they changed once I had that information, I changed when I was working when I was filming, my inflammation and my stomach issues also went down. And so (Amy: Yeah) it's this thing that like we sometimes we take things like that's just how it is. And other times we think like, (Amy: Right) "Oh, that's too long, I don't have that kind of time." But to your credits, like once you have the information you start to have the healing process, then you have your whole life ahead of you and like that's gonna be a lot longer than the six months of like, (Amy: Yeah) having to trial and error and figure things out.Amy Denson 28:56  Yeah, I think there's just so much reassurance and, and really getting to know your body. And I you know, I think we talk so much about things that are common, but they're not normal. So your body is talking to you all the time. And we've got to start listening. We have to, we cannot push it aside and just keep pushing forward. I'll sleep later all, I'll put myself first later right or when when this ends, then you know when summer starts, whatever that is, because if you are having awful periods, your body's screaming at you. If you are having bloating, gassing, women if you are not pooping every day, your body is telling you something. So so many things that I think that you know, for a long time I just thought well, my cramps feeling awful for for the first day or two my period or the week up to, it's just how my mom experienced it. That's just how it is for me. Absolutely not. We are not meant to feel in this comfort most of our life. (Lesley: Right.) And so I think really starting to listen to your body and that is the information that we can work with.Lesley Logan 30:09  So can we talk about that? Because I think that that is a really important thing that some people like, "Now I like, I listen to my body." And then there's the perfectionist and overachievers listen to like, "But wait. Like, what does that mean? How do I do that?" So you mentioned, we gonna poop everyday ladies. You also mentioned like, serious cramps, like, yeah, people like, "Oh, I have PCOS or I have this." It's like, yeah, but even people with that don't have to have the worst cramps, there (Amy: Right) are still things you can do. So, (Amy: Absolutely) you know, because I used to have a friend, I had a friend of my practice, I remember, she was only going to the bathroom once every two weeks. And she was (Amy: Right) going to the doctor for this. And the doctor was like, "You just have a really lazy colon." And she's like, "I got that, you didn't, I don't need your medical opinion for that." She's like, I (Amy: Right) she did not have a lazy colon, though (Lesley laughs) (Amy: Right) like rolling faster.Amy Denson 30:56  My colon is not inherently lazy. It's not a choice. It's not on the couch watching Netflix like what do we need to do here?Lesley Logan 31:02  Yeah. So what are some others like, what are some? It maybe they're not easy, but what are some ways that people could listen to their body? Do they journal? Like, is there an app? Like what tool did you use to start listening to your body and paying attention to signs?Amy Denson 31:16  Um, I think my I mean, my awareness is pretty high. I've been listening to my body for a while, as an athlete, I had to, to make sure we're good to go, you know, all of that. But I mean, I think journaling is is a great form. I think really listening to podcasts, listening or books information. Alisa Vitti has a great book in the flow about women's cycle, about even like you were saying, how do you, how can we move within our cycle to really support our cycle? How can I eat within my cycle to really support my cycle? So I think if you're experiencing any discomfort, I would just note that or even imagine like, if, if I imagined my health is like, optimal, though, you know, I imagined myself like, walking through a beautiful field and, you know, the sun shining, and I just feel my absolute best. What does that look like? It does that look like I don't have heartburn anymore? Does that look like I don't have awful periods? Does that look like you know, my hair isn't thinning? Does that look like I don't feel cold all the time? Or I feel like I'm in control of my body. And I'm not just gaining weight all of a sudden, I don't know why? You know, what is that, what is that perfect ish health look like for you? And what symptoms are you experiencing that you would like to either reduce or eliminate?Lesley Logan 32:54  Yeah, I like that, I think because that's like, that allows every single listener to choose it for themselves. And you're not comparing my loves because that's not going to get you, (Amy: No, no, no.) you can't like everyone's going to have something that's a different optimal health. But I do think that like, you know, like, so if you're listening to this, if you heard any symptoms that she mentioned there, you're like, "Oh, the I have heartburn." Like, you don't have to have heartburn. And you don't have to take the Prilosec or whatever it's called to like, get rid of it every time you eat. Like, there are things you know, and holistic doctors, like I love mine. She's she's been on the (Amy: Right) podcast before and like, there's things I'm like, "Oh, I just live with this." And she's like, "No, you don't, actually."Amy Denson 33:34  Not necessary. (Lesley laughs) And it's just it's just really, it's about what can we do in specifically with heartburn, your body is just telling you, there is a need for some functional support there. We are, you know, and so what can we do to get your body to start performing digestively a little bit more optimally, so that we are not only reducing you taking any like, you know, Prilosec or PPI or anything like that. But we want to reduce the heartburn because it's just an indication that your body is not properly digesting, which (Lesley: Yeah) is everything. (Lesley: Right and that's all your nutrition and all the things. Yeah.) Yeah, just another, it's just another symptom. It's just another way of your body's saying and it. You know, there's no shame around our symptoms. (Lesley: Yeah.) And I think we really need to step away, step back from that. Even weight gain, that's a symptom of something. Right? Weight loss is a symptom of something. So let's figure it out. And you know, I don't think, you know, a lot of time we keep going back to, "Well, I ate this, I didn't eat that. I can't eat this because this causes that." It's a matter of function and really supporting that, rather than having to pick out which foods that you can and can't eat for the rest of your life. (Lesley: Yeah) We really need to get down to the root of what's going on and just say, "Hey, this is what I'm experiencing. I'd like some relief in these areas or more knowledge around these areas. And let's make a plan to move forward." But because you're experiencing something, you are not doing anything wrong. We just need to get more knowledge around what the heck is going on. And I understand that there is hope for some relief. And for a long time, I didn't feel like I had a lot of hope it was something that I had to deal with. (Lesley: Yeah) And so I would get so hard on myself for doing this or doing that, and then my symptoms would pop up, or symptoms would pop up. (Lesley: Yeah) And I felt like I would personally attack myself for, for doing this and that. So let's, let's try to take that off of there as well. And just look at it as information. And that can direct us on where we need to go.Lesley Logan 35:50  That's... Yes, all the yeses, because I, you know, I was like you're talking, I was thinking like, so many of these listeners are moms and 100% if their kid was saying something hurt or burned, or they're tired, they would be like figuring out all the things (Amy: Yeah) that would go on to make sure that that was not there. But when it comes to our own bodies, we excuse it away, or "Oh, it's just because I ate that," or "Oh, I shouldn't have ate that. And I know I shouldn't eat that." And that's why it was it's like we're not taking the same care to to make sure that our bodies which are the vessels that you need to continue to be the parent to your the person you love for as long as you can as seriously and I think like we that, that we all could bit change that. And also, I hear you saying a lot of things like being kind. I mean, really kind of yourself because your body's just trying to tell you something, and it's not like you did anything and you're wrong. And I love what you said about the symptoms like think it's amazing. So currently, Amy, before we wrap this up, what are you? Right now, is there anything that you are being it till you see it like? Are you taking new steps, new leaps? Like how are you, how is this mission going for you? And what are you doing that maybe you've never done before but you're working on figuring it out?Amy Denson 37:04  Yeah. Well, I mean, I literally just yesterday found out I finished my restorative wellness practitioner certification. You guys, I can test poop now. And I'm so excited. (Lesley laughs) I know not many people would be like, "What are you talking about?" And I actually I have nothing to do with it. But so ...Lesley Logan 37:25  You can ask, you can get the test for the, (Amy: I can now...) people to send the poop to the place. (Amy: Yes) Yes.Amy Denson 37:29  So I can now offer it's called the GI-MAP. And I can now offer an MRT, which is not a food sensitivities test, it's a test to see what foods are causing inflammation in your body, which is really what we want to get that inflammation down. So with that GI-MAP, we can, we can see the good bacteria, the not so good bacteria, we can see information, we can see auto immune activity. And we can we can really pair that with that MRT test so that we can have a plan to see, "Hey, this is what's going on inside of your gut. Everybody wants to talk about gut health. Well, let's look inside your dang, gut." And this really, really will help with them. I mean, everything lives in our gut. It's our second brain. It has a ton to do with our thyroid functioning, our you know, HPA axis, all of that. So I, I I am pursuing a deep dive into really finding out what's going on for people. So we can try to get to some root causes and really see where we need to support overall function and digestively to (Lesley: So cool.) and I think that that'll just be kind of a waterfall effect for most people's symptoms. So I am so excited. I think this is going to be a game changer.Lesley Logan 38:41  I cannot (Amy: ... feeling) I cannot even wait for my husband to listen to this. And he (Amy: Yeah) like, he'll be like, "All of a sudden it's like all this stuff and health. It's great and be kind. And it's like I'm excited because we can test poop now." Like he'll laughs so hard.Amy Denson 38:54  Yeah, absolutely.Lesley Logan 38:55  Oh my gosh, this is amazing, Amy. I'm really excited for our listeners to hear this and I can't wait to hear how they take away but before we let you go we have to hear your BE IT action items after this brief message.Okay, Amy, how can people find you, follow you, get to know you more?Amy Denson 39:14  Sure. I'm on Instagram at @coachamyrae and you can email me at amyraenutrition@gmail.com The website is getting a beautiful reboost which will be done in a couple of weeks. And yeah and then I also have a podcast as well called The Chronic Athletes and really just featuring stories of resilience inspiration and all things wellness just to you know show proof that it can be done in exactly what you're doing as well. SoLesley Logan 39:44  Oh, I love that so much. Okay, well that's cool because we definitely have some some athletes that are listening and also I had a girl on I'll have to connect you, I have to look it up. She actually was a D1 athlete as well. And then she wrote a book on like, how do you like go into life ...Amy Denson 40:01  Oh my gosh, that's so needed. The transition is so yep, (Lesley: Yeah) that's so cool.Lesley Logan 40:04  I'll I'll, I'll find (Amy: Oh great) her episode and I'll connect you two because like, yeah, it's amazing. (Amy: Thank you.) So okay, before we let you go, bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted steps people can take to be it till they see it. What do you have for us?Amy Denson 40:17  Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this and I just listened to, to a message the other day. And I think, really identifying and getting over our fear of failure. And I think really just going, just going after it, right, whether it's your health, whether it's your career, whether it's your family, whether it's just getting to know yourself, and understanding that if we are in pursuit of something with intention, there, there really is no failure, right, there's only going to be maybe learning lessons along the way. But if we're not ever pursuing anything, obviously, we're not going to be growing. But I think the pursuit is something is really what starts open more doors in your life, it starts to create that momentum. And I think if we can look at it as more of an opportunity in our pursuit, rather than the lens of failure of something, and really focus on the process, rather than the outcome, right. So a lot of people come with the goal is weight loss, which is great. But what else can we get out of the process? (Lesley: Yeah) What else can we get out of, of you taking that step forward for yourself and your health? Just just, you know, in that pursuit of intention, so I think really letting go of that, that lens of fear of failure, (Lesley: Yeah) and pursuing everything with with that lens of opportunity.Lesley Logan 41:49  Oh, I love this. I love those so much. Thank you. That another amazing and unique and I love them. Y'all, how are you use these tips in your life? Co... you're gonna tag @coachamyrae and the @be_it_pod and let us know. Post this on your socials, so we can see your takeaways, so we can shout you out, so we can share it. So we can also just see what you're up to and also what's resonating. If you're like, "I don't know how to do that." Then text this message, send this podcast to a friend. And that is not only how we get Amy's message, it's also how podcasts get heard. And the you have no idea how every single download matters. So every single one of you listen to this, it really does matter to all of us because we can't do this without you. So we want to know how you're using this in your life. Tag us both. And until next time, Be It Till You See It.That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 43:09  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.Lesley Logan 43:20  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Brad Crowell 43:25  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 43:33  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 43:45  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

It's time for a quick summer request! Register now for the free AP Coordinator: Back-to-School workshop. Listen in as Derek and Rachel describe why the all-new workshop benefits both new and experienced AP coordinators. Workshops start in July. Be sure to book your spot just before the new school year begins. Back-to-School Workshop: https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/d/bkqj3j/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

Today's conversation about membership programs for humane businesses fits under the P of Product of the Humane Marketing Mandala. In this week's episode, I talk to Amy Bonsall about the P of People, precisely people flourishing at work. Amy founded Nau and developed its core offerings by drawing on her extensive experience in designing for mental wellbeing and for communities, as well as her experience advising teams and leaders across 100s of companies in industries from tech to financial services to healthcare to agriculture to retail. Previously, Amy was an executive at IDEO, where she spent a decade leading the creation of new businesses for companies across Europe, Australia, Asia, and the US, living much of that time outside the US. And as the executive leading new ventures at Old Navy, she co-led the creation of a billion-dollar new business, focused on body equity. In this episode, we talk mainly about people in Corporate jobs and I know that is possibly not your situation as my audience is made of more entrepreneurs. But it's maybe the situation of your clients, friends, and family. I think it's such a timely topic to discuss because we're at the beginning of a huge work transformation after the two years we went through. The great resignation is a testimony to that. In this episode, you'll learn about flourishing at work as well as... Why people are NOT flourishing at work The main reasons for their disengagement from work The mental consequences of this situation The opportunity and where we can go from here Amy's idea of a flourishing workplace And much more… Amy's Resources   Amy's Website Special offer: 1:1 sessions with Amy for Humane Marketers "When starting a new job means… crossing your living room" article by Amy Connect with Amy on: Twitter LinkedIn Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Amy. So good to talk to you today. I can't wait to dive into this topic. We've been talking already beforehand, so really excited.  Amy: Likewise and it's so, so fun to be on your podcast. Thanks for having me, Sarah.  Sarah: Thank you. Yeah. So we want to talk about the P for people of my humane marketing Mandalah and in our conversations, it's really about people flourishing at work that is kind of your specialty. Right? And I think before we get started, maybe you can tell us a little bit how that became your specialty. How did you get into this field?  Amy: Yeah. Well, just to start with the P part of it, I spent a decade as a human centered designer at the design company called IDEO. And there, we just really learned how to understand people and what their needs are. And one of the things that we always believed and practiced was. You help people by recognizing where they are and then taking them one step [00:01:00] further, not by starting with what, you know, they might hope, or you might hope is their ideal aspiration. And so that's really the Genesis of my corporate training and my professional training. And I'm just applying that at work. One of the things I had the chance to do. Consulting career was work all over the world and with companies all over the world. And I saw the same challenges all over the world, which is that we are not flourishing at work. It is hard to flourish at work and there are cultural challenges that make that hard. And I say culture kind of quite broadly. It's not American culture. It's not, you know, Silicon valley corporate culture. It's the kind of universal workplace culture that we've developed over. Right. So that's really the Genesis of how I got this.  Sarah: Yeah, so it's so good when you said, you know kind of take people from where they are. I think it makes me think of my work with selling and how often we want them to sell kind of [00:02:00] this future version of themselves instead of acknowledging where they are first. So it, this idea, this concept applies to. I guess so many different things right. In, in, in design and it applies to sales and marketing probably as well. So, so interesting. And the other thing you said is this idea of, of culture. And, and, and yeah, I'm, we're going to go into that idea a little bit more the work culture that we've created over. What is it the last, what would you say 20, 50 years? How  Amy: long? Probably 50, 75 years. We've created this culture of dry, which is great in so many ways. But it, it creates this sense that if we're not exhausted, we're not succeeding and that's kind of paradigm that we need to break in order to flourish. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. It's almost like We created, you know, the, the, the, the last kind of breakthrough was the industrial revolution. And so that's [00:03:00] kind of, we were very proud to create this really deep work ethics and got to work. And, and, and even to schools, if we think. You know, we're going to be talking about work spaces, but if you think about the schools, I often have this conversation with fellow parents. It's like the schools have never changed since the industrial revolution. And we're still teaching the kids as if they were like little soldiers who have to eventually go to, to work. And it's just like, ah, it's so frustrating at times. Do you feel frustrated in your work sometimes as well because you. I wish you could go faster.  Amy: Oh, all my every day I wish I could go faster. And I think, you know, we're going to talk about some practical things that you can do in your workplace or any of your listeners can do. But I often crave, like, I think we need a cultural revolution here or revolution is the right word. We really need to create a new [00:04:00] paradigm in the workplace. And in fact, one of what's so interesting. You're right. We started with this. Industrial revolution sort of belief in increased productivity what's been proven. More recently is that, you know, when we are balanced, when we're balanced, when we are flourishing, when we are not giving everything to work, that's when it actually goes better. Productivity increases, efficiency, increases client satisfaction, customer satisfaction increases. And, but it's counterintuitive for us. Because I think of what our culture is. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah, yeah. So, so much. So, I mean, even I was sharing with on LinkedIn about, you know, the recent Morocco trip and I shared about feeling even on vacation, this urge of. Going to the next thing. Right. We had this eight day trips through Morocco and I was like, oh, it felt like, oh, I have to go to the next city and, you know, see more things. And then we just actually [00:05:00] decided, okay, let's arrest for two days and coincidence or serendipity wanted it. The place we were at was called and in Arabic or verbiage language, that actually means rest place. Well, if that's not a sign to, you know, just stress, but yeah. Even on vacation, we're like, oh, chasing after the next thing. And, and that reminds me of something you said during our pre-call is this kind of this visual of the hamster wheel of many of your clients feel like they're, they're spinning in this hamster wheel and it's almost kind of like a surreal world that they're spinning in. So. Yeah, when that comes up, how do you help them with, I guess, change of perspective and, and yeah. Some tools. How do you work with clients who give you  Amy: that answer? Yeah, you know, I mean, one of the things I was reflecting on our last conversation too, and that image, one of the things that's been [00:06:00] so powerful for me over the past couple of years as I've worked in this, you know, a full-time in this space is this. And that so many of us feel like we're alone. We're all individually. Suffering from something that others seem not to be. And one of the things that I do in my work when I work with teams and companies is I'll spend a lot of time one-on-one with, with people inside the organization and then I'll play back to them. Here are the things that are barriers to flourishing in your organization. Here are the things that are supportive. And when I play back the barriers, so often I get this comment. Oh, I thought it was just me, you know, I didn't realize other people were suffering. And I think that's part of where this hamster hamster wheel image comes from is this idea that I'm alone fighting the good fight against against this culture that everyone else is thriving in, but we aren't thriving. So I think that's the first thing is just recognizing. The collective challenge that we all have, and the fact that it's not [00:07:00] a unique individual one, and then therein lies the answer for me. I very much believe. That community is the sort of counterweight or the support to flourishing at work, we support we've flourished through our connections with other people. And so that's often what we'll do is we'll start with a community, being a working team, be it a leadership team be it a team of people at middle management. And just identify, like, what's one thing that they want to do to support their sense of flourishing, and then we do it together.  Sarah: Yeah, it seems so simple, right? It seems so simple because it's like, well, all these people are there. You know, you have all these colleagues so just get together with them and share what you're feeling and that you're, you know, feeling this idea of. Loneliness or being in a hamster wheel. And yet I think part of that [00:08:00] industrial revolution training is, has been like, no, you just gotta power through it and you have to just wear your mask and do your spiel and kind of, you know, embraced us role because at work that's how you behave. D is that the hardest part to get people to actually, you know, learn how to be in community?  Amy: So I think we all have the natural instinct to be in community. I think we've all realized that especially over the last two years when we haven't been together. So we have that natural instinct in that capability. What's hard actually is turning it from just community about how do we achieve the next task or get the next thing done or shift. Brought up to how do we take some of that time and talk about how we work? What we focus on or I focus on when I help people is like, let's have a conversation about how you're working, not just what you're working on. And that's like, it is simple actually. And it's also very, very it feels very indulgent [00:09:00] to take the time to talk about how we work. But absolutely it, you know, small changes can make a big.  Sarah: Yeah, you're so right. It's this idea of just like I shared about the pausing on vacation, we just don't want to take the time to do something that feels like we're doing nothing. It's like, why would we, why are we talking about, you know, how we wanna, how we work instead of what the next thing we need to accomplish. And I also. When you talked, I thought, well, that's true in the workplace. And I definitely see it in my husband's company, but I would even say that even in the entrepreneurial space, we have become these kind of loan wolves and, and you know, everybody on their own. And even though we say that we have, you know, Facebook groups and all these social media networks to kind of be in touch, even there, I [00:10:00] feel like. It's still not this offense, that connection where we actually help each other. So I, I do feel like we can't just say, oh, it's all the corporate stuff. That's not doing a good job. I think even in the entrepreneurial space we need to kind of pause and say, okay, let's really collaborate. And co-create because I know. I think that we have been doing that. And for us, there really is no excuse, right? Where in the corporate world, maybe, you know, someone up there creates the culture and then, and then, you know, you just live in that culture for us. We actually have the privilege to be able to create that. So have you seen that also, you know, in kind of your entrepreneurial  Amy: fields, that there's a shift happening there too? You know, so much of what you said just resonated with me right now. And one of the things that I think ties corporate culture and entrepreneurial culture together is the broader culture that we're living in. And again, I mean that quite broad, I spent a [00:11:00] big chunk of my career outside of the U S and I saw. In Asia. I saw it in Australia. I saw it in Europe as well as in the U S but culturally, it feels bad if we're not pushing, pushing, pushing. And that is what creates that ripple effect in big companies. But it's also what creates this drive in us to keep going as entrepreneurs and to not stop and reflect as much as we know we should. I mean, how did it feel? Took a time to pause on your vacation. Right? It feels good. Doesn't it? It  Sarah: does. Yeah. I, like we said before, the call, it feels like at the, the first two days it's like, oh really? Am I just really unplugging? And it feels weird, but then once you do, it's like, oh, this. Life is all about let's face it, that that's where, you know, the, the, the memories happen. That's where you create memories for your kids and in your family in not in the business exchanges so  Amy: [00:12:00] much. Right? So we know intuitively when we have this felt sense that pausing is good for us. And yet culturally, we have this. You know, this voice that comes in and sounds like our own voice in our own head that says, you've gotta be pushing harder, you've gotta be working faster. And so the first thing is just kind of acknowledging that there's a tension there, right? And that's that's where I landed on this concept of flourishing at work, you know, originally I was playing around with different ways in different, you know, versus a different language. But flourishing really spoke to me. And I'll tell you why one it's. So scientists have studied what makes people flourish and I love that there's science behind this. We know what makes us feel good. But the thing that really connected with me for flourishing, and I'm curious if it resonates with you too. The idea that flourishing encompasses how we achieve, how we connect and how we recharge. It really kind of says, all of these things are important to making us feel [00:13:00] good. You can't have achievement without recharge. You can't have recharged without achievement and you can't have any of them without connection. And so sort of recognizing that those are all pieces of the puzzle that are important is, is how it. Help others and myself, frankly, as well too, to get the sense of flirty. Yeah. Yeah.  Sarah: W what I just saw as the image of a flower and, you know, these  Amy: different pedals  Sarah: that, like you said, pieces of the puzzles. And I was like, yeah. And then kind of flourishing the flower, you know, pieces, different pedals basically, then that all are needed for us to, to flourish. That's so true. Yeah. So, so what's the opportunity where, you know, w w what can we do as entrepreneurs and, and what are you working on with companies to, to create that shift? And maybe, you know, some companies already recognized the need for the chef, and then there's probably others who [00:14:00] are still. You know, lost in the industrial revolution and they haven't even recognized the shift. Where would you say? Kind of a percentage percentage-wise how many companies have already recognized something needs to change?  Amy: It's a great question. And one, I'll start with your, your prompt about what's the opportunity. I love that you ask it that way. You know, I, as I said earlier, I was trained as a designer and as designers, we're always trained to look for the opportunity that that sort of sits in the problem. Right? So a lot of like, there's a lot of talk lately about burnout. There's a lot of talk about language. And and you know, some studies will say up to 75% of people have felt overwhelmed stress burnout in their workplaces. So the, the, the issue is there, the opportunity for me is to flip it around and say, well, okay, that's one thing. Burnout is one thing, how do we flourish? Let's focus [00:15:00] on how do we flourish? What does it look like? Four-ish do companies recognize this. Absolutely. I would say many of them do. I'd say. What they grapple with is how can we be effective here? And a lot of, a lot of attention has been put on wellbeing programs in the workplace and what these can actually do unintentionally is exacerbate the problem because they're, they're offered as individual resources. Here's something for you. Employee acts to go and do. And what, what that isn't acknowledging is that there's this communal thing. There's this culture that we've all created and we've all kind of understood and accepted in our workplaces, whether they're startups or large companies. And that that culture is what makes it hard for us to make the change. And so I have really tactical things that people can do to start flip flipping this. But but yes, acknowledging that there's there's a real need is the first step. And I think a lot of companies are, they. [00:16:00] With the grapple with is how can we tactically make the change? Yeah,  Sarah: you're so right about the individual solutions and they're probably, you know, they're probably not wrong. Their first step. They're a nice to have, but they are not going to. Solve the problem of you know, for example, the great resignation people won't stay just because they now have a weekly meditation class in the company. Right. So it's really the culture that the communal aspect of the workplace that, that needs to change. And I don't, I think younger generations are just requiring that. So yeah. The other thing. I guess that we're also having to solve as yes, we want communities. And yet the trend is that we're all going, not going back to the actual office and workspace. So we did, it's like an additional [00:17:00] challenge. People are gonna still work from home. And so we need to somehow create community while being all over the place and not necessarily to get.  Amy: No, absolutely. That's so true. And you know, I just want to comment on your point about the younger generations are demanding that like, when you look into the data, it is generation. Z and the millennials who are more likely to be demanding change you know, us, us older folks and gen X, et cetera recognize it and need it as well. We're, we're just less likely as a generation to insist on it. And I love that these younger generations are because I believe that that it's the change that we need in our organizations. So even if, you know, as leaders, we're hesitant to. May cultural changes, recognizing that the younger generations coming up are, are not going to accept the status quo, I think is really good business motivation. So, so that I think is really [00:18:00] compelling opportunity for us in terms of like, what can we tactically do? And, and your point that many of us are not going back to the office. I think that there's, there's still so much that we can, that we can do even when we're not physically connected. And one of the biggest things that I talk about with the teams that I work with is this idea of. There are transactional interactions with our colleagues and there are relational interactions with our colleagues. And so much of what we've done over the past two years has lean towards the transactional, right? We're online. We're going to just get this thing done that we need to collaborate on. Maybe there's like two minutes of like, how was your weekend before that? But it really leans transaction. And what I believe that we need to do is to add in, you know, more dedicated relational moments and those we can do together when we're in person, that's more natural for us, but there are also really easy ways to do that when we're physically [00:19:00] separated. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I love that distinction between transactional and relational. And what I often use is, you know, the doing and the being the yin and the yang and, and, and totally, yeah. In, in, in our community, the humane marketing circle, we really want to come as humans to the circle. So, yes, there's the transactional piece to doing piece, you know, that the marketing advice, but then it's. Also about the being, being together as entrepreneurs who want to do marketing ethically and that mothers, I would say just as much as just getting the answer to, you know, what tools should I use for this and that. Right. And, and you're right. We're so trained to always want to. The quick fix the next answer, where we didn't actually realize what we're missing is also the relationship and the belonging to something bigger to a group, [00:20:00] even so to have companies realize that I think that's going to be a huge. Huge change. Like to actually say we value to put time aside for having people create relationships and, and, you know, they have to pay people while this happens. Right. That's going to be a huge shift. So I'm curious to hear from you. Yeah. If you envision the company of the future where people flourish at work, how does that look like? Amy: Yeah, no, that's a great question. And, and I agree, you know, to the first part of your, your comment, like companies do need to invest in and spend time in this. I don't think that's different than it ever was. I think we always had our social hours and, you know, our conferences, et cetera, et cetera. I think we need to be more intentional now. And I actually think that's a really good thing. And so if we look five years ahead I think that the company that [00:21:00] flourishes the most is the one that is most intentional about relationship building alongside the transactional stuff. It's funny. You were, you were on vacation last week. I took my first business trip in two years last week. And as I was going through the business trip, I was like, it just feels different than, than it used to. And I. I started polling, you know, folks on social media. I was like, have you, have you traveled for business? And if so, like what's different now than it used to be. And one person came back and said, you know, it's all about relationships now. And I've noticed that when I travel for business and connect with my colleagues personally, it makes all the transactional stuff so much easier. And so. That, you know, that's a key part of the business of the future. Will we be together or apart? I think that's going to vary by business. Some businesses will absolutely want to be together every day. Some will not. But I think it's super interesting, this comment on like how relationships make the [00:22:00] transactional stuff easier. And I do really believe that's a key point. Of of what the future successful businesses will look like. The other thing that I think is really important is having conversations. We spoke to this earlier about how we work just iterating on like what's working and what's not. You know, when we went into the pandemic, we all flipped mode almost overnight as we come out of the pandemic. I think it's going to be a longer journey to figuring out how we work together successfully, what it looks like to collaborate in this new environment. And so just creating space, regular space for having conversations about the, how, not just the, what that will be a hallmark of a flourishing company.  Sarah: Yeah, that really resonates with me. And, and I think you're right, it's this, it's a way from, you know, business trips to conferences and all these kind of big meetings and agendas. We can do those online [00:23:00] now, right. People are not going to travel for that anymore. Or I think also just going to be more like outings and. Things and, you know, just like, yeah. Getting to know the humans behind the zoom screen in a way. Right. So,  Amy: yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, Airbnb, I don't know if you caught this news cause you weren't offline and I hope you didn't actually, but I did  Sarah: actually. Yeah. Yeah. But they announced that people can now work from anywhere.  Amy: Right. People can work from anywhere forever. And I think two things were really important in that announcement. One is they said, expect to come together once a quarter with your colleagues. They're still figuring out what that looks like, but they're acknowledging that the there's this really urgent need for people to come together physically. Yeah too, and I think this relates to their business, but I think it's interesting for all of us. They said up to three months per year, you can work from any other country in the world. [00:24:00] And also that's about the relational, right? That's about for them immersing with their customers and understanding their lives. And so you know, I think that companies that are doubling down on this relational aspect will do well. Yeah,  Sarah: I think they're definitely setting an example for you know, for the future of business. And I'm sure a lot of. Young generations will either. They're like, that's exactly what we want. We want to work for a company. And, and, and I think we've proven many times over that the, this myths that we had before, the pandemic, that people don't work the same amount or same hours, because they're at home. I mean, we we've seen that, that that is absolutely not true. So, so yeah, there's. There's definitely good things that hopefully come out from this kind of weird times that we have gone through. And I'm glad for Airbnb to Jen is just kind of show the way. Yeah,  Amy: absolutely. And you know, two things I want to kind of [00:25:00] underlying here. I believe so. One of the things that I studied is. What, what makes behavior change successful? And you know, if you think about new year's resolutions, for instance, those are things that we always want to do. And yet how often are we actually successful behavior? Change is hard, even when we want it. And we're in the midst of the biggest work. Upheaval and change and our, and our lifetimes really. But one of the things that makes change successful is the shock of being in sort of this transition state and being in in this space where everything is kind of thrown up into the air. If you think in your own life, one did the biggest change happened. It wouldn't be surprising if it was around, you know, a move from one, you know, one place to another or a life change. You know, having kids getting married, graduating from college, all of these like big moments are when we make the biggest change. And so right now, as a [00:26:00] society, we're in one of those big moments collectively. And so we have this real opportunity to create change right now. And I think it's sort of important for all of them. To recognize that and to take advantage of it. Cause I think we could slip back into the way things used to be, but I don't think many of us want to. And so it's, it's an opportunity we have in this moment of, of ambiguity is that we're all more malleable than we ever will be either before or after.  Sarah: And it somehow requires also. Some work on ourselves. We can't just say, oh, you know, the company and blame it all on the company. Cause I feel like even for ourselves while we need to, you know, show some flexibility, more flexibility, maybe we need to even be okay with a pay cut things. We value now more because of the transformation we have gone through, they don't always come with more money. So this [00:27:00] idea of, you know, do I really want this promotion? Is that, that my next step? Or, or, or maybe do I value things differently? So I think it requires also some self-refer reflection and maybe changing some priorities in their own life. Amy: Oh, I a thousand percent agree. And actually, you know, if the first thing that folks need to contemplate is how do they add in more of the relationship relational interactions? The second thing I I'm advocating for. Consider what agency you have and use that agency. And I think this is true startup or big company, but I think it's really easy to get into the situation where you think this is the way the world is, or this is the way things are. But absolutely we have the chance no matter where we sit to kind of recognize the amount of change that we can create. And to grasp that and to [00:28:00] do something about it. And absolutely flexibility is one of the, sort of the biggest things that comes up over and over again, as, as a desire for my clients. But what does that look like? What does it mean? What, what do you really want by flexibility? And often it boils down to things that are not financially related, right? I want to be able to show up for my kids' soccer games. Like I have been able to, I want to be able to be here when my child is sick. Things like that I think are much more internally intrinsically motivated than extrinsic extrinsic. And and that's part of the conversation I think we can have together is like, what do we need to be able to work healthfully and well together.  Sarah: Yeah. And it really is such an opportunity to, to have this time of change due to sit down and have this reflection. Right. Because before we were just in our trans mode and, and just, you know, work and sleep and work again, [00:29:00] now we actually have to time to think, well, what do I want out of yeah, out of my time here on this earth,  Amy: I like to say that I think. Every person, probably over the age of two in the world has had some sort of epiphany over the past two years. Right. They have this chance to reflect on what they really want. And it's, it's helpful to remember that we're all in that space together right now. And so one better in our lives to talk about change and what we really want out of how we work together. Then.  Sarah: Yeah, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. It's I just really. I'm so delighted that we are living in this time of change. Like, I couldn't be happier that we are, you know, on earth right now to, to live through this change. And I, yeah, obviously I, I hope we'll see the other of the change, but I'm just so grateful also for [00:30:00] people like you, who help companies Yeah, pivot to you through this. So I would, I'd be delighted if you shared, you know, where people can find out more about you and how you work with companies, but also the smaller startups,  Amy: right? Yeah, absolutely. I'll share that one, one thought before I do you mentioned this, that we're all in this state of change and an exciting, and also it'll, it'll eventually settle down and I just want to acknowledge that change is very uncomfortable for us, whether or not we, we want it. And so just recognizing that it is a period of great excitement and possibility. D it's deeply unsettling. So so if it feels unsettling, that's, that's part of the human condition. Yes, I work with companies. I have a company called now and it is all about helping people to flourish at work. And I work with everyone from startups to huge, huge corporations on this. And we provide [00:31:00] programs and also bespoke support for those countries. I can be found on all the social channels. Well, except for Facebook, I don't, I don't Facebook right now. But active on LinkedIn and Instagram. And I will share a link for, for an article that I've written that really, it it's about. How people can flourish as they start a new job during a pandemic, but actually it applies to anyone. And it has some really just really practical tips for how to increase, especially that relational aspect that we talked about.  Sarah: I'll put that in the show notes  Amy: for sure. Great. Thank you. And then also and I'll share a link to this, but just an offer. I would be very happy to chat one-on-one with folks who are. Recognizing they want to do something to change their companies. Focus on flourishing. And so I'll share a link to that too. Don't hesitate to reach out just my gift to your [00:32:00] listeners. How can, how can we together identify a few steps that you can, you can make to, to create practical? Sarah: Wonderful. Amazing offer. Thank you so much, Amy. You know that I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? This one?  Amy: Yeah. So much actually one I've I've been sick recently. I have long COVID and I'm feeling better. And so I just, I think anytime you go through a health incident, like. It's it's just a reminder of how important health is, and I'm just such a believer in sort of the connection of mind and body and, and, and the health that, you know, the importance of health and, and everything would be so grateful for that. You're feeling better. Thank you. But I also just want to say I'm so grateful for the community that I have, and I think that is what keeps me flourishing. You know, I'm grateful for. For the other [00:33:00] entrepreneurs like yourself, who who I'm lucky enough to be friends with, who are, are honest and vulnerable with me about what their challenges are. And likewise, I can be with them. We all need these safe spaces to be able to kind of grapple with, with what's easy and hard about growing a business and some so, so grateful for my dear friends who who share their journeys. Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. It's so important to have that community of close friends or, or, or other entrepreneurs who like you say, show up real, like, where are you feel like, oh, this is real. I can tell the difference.  Amy: Yeah, easy. So it's so great to have that, that support.  Sarah: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be a guest on the humane marketing podcast. Amy, it's been a great pleasure to talk about.  Amy: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for inviting me in, and I'm such a fan of your work as well, Sarah, so thank you for, including me [00:34:00] in your journey.

The Season 6 finale brings to light an extremely important message to pass along to AP students. Listen in as Derek and Rachel discuss how students can send their free score report to colleges and universities. Plus Rachel sets the record straight with some answers to FAQs. Press Play right now. The deadline for students is coming up soon! Get out from behind that testing cart and prep for summer break with this episode of Coordinated.AP Coordinator: Back to School workshop: https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/d/bkqj3j/Returning AP Exam Materials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jx-p8uJqB4Administering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

In what might be the most popular topic of Coordinated conversation to date, Derek and Rachel talk about financial support for a school's AP program. This particular support comes in the form of the Large-Volume Rebate. Learn which schools qualify for the rebate, how and when to claim the rebate, and what the rebate is used for. Don't miss out! Press Play for this important reminder on Coordinated.AP Coordinator: Back to School workshop: https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/d/bkqj3j/Returning AP Exam Materials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jx-p8uJqB4Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

“Automatic” is the key word for this Coordinated conversation. Derek and Rachel share their thoughts on indicating unused exams in AP Registration and Ordering and how that's reflected on the school's invoice. Other questions asked and answered include: When will the invoice be ready? How will coordinators know it's ready? And does Derek balance his checkbook? No calculators required for this number-crunching episode of Coordinated.Returning AP Exam Materials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jx-p8uJqB4Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

About AmyAmy Tobey has worked in tech for more than 20 years at companies of every size, working with everything from kernel code to user interfaces. These days she spends her time building an innovative Site Reliability Engineering program at Equinix, where she is a principal engineer. When she's not working, she can be found with her nose in a book, watching anime with her son, making noise with electronics, or doing yoga poses in the sun.Links Referenced: Equinix Metal: https://metal.equinix.com Personal Twitter: https://twitter.com/MissAmyTobey Personal Blog: https://tobert.github.io/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Optimized cloud compute plans have landed at Vultr to deliver lightning-fast processing power, courtesy of third-gen AMD EPYC processors without the IO or hardware limitations of a traditional multi-tenant cloud server. Starting at just 28 bucks a month, users can deploy general-purpose, CPU, memory, or storage optimized cloud instances in more than 20 locations across five continents. Without looking, I know that once again, Antarctica has gotten the short end of the stick. Launch your Vultr optimized compute instance in 60 seconds or less on your choice of included operating systems, or bring your own. It's time to ditch convoluted and unpredictable giant tech company billing practices and say goodbye to noisy neighbors and egregious egress forever. Vultr delivers the power of the cloud with none of the bloat. “Screaming in the Cloud” listeners can try Vultr for free today with a $150 in credit when they visit getvultr.com/screaming. That's G-E-T-V-U-L-T-R dot com slash screaming. My thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast.Corey: Finding skilled DevOps engineers is a pain in the neck! And if you need to deploy a secure and compliant application to AWS, forgettaboutit! But that's where DuploCloud can help. Their comprehensive no-code/low-code software platform guarantees a secure and compliant infrastructure in as little as two weeks, while automating the full DevSecOps lifestyle. Get started with DevOps-as-a-Service from DuploCloud so that your cloud configurations are done right the first time. Tell them I sent you and your first two months are free. To learn more visit: snark.cloud/duplo. Thats's snark.cloud/D-U-P-L-O-C-L-O-U-D.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Every once in a while I catch up with someone that it feels like I've known for ages, and I realize somehow I have never been able to line up getting them on this show as a guest. Today is just one of those days. And my guest is Amy Tobey who has been someone I've been talking to for ages, even in the before-times, if you can remember such a thing. Today, she's a Senior Principal Engineer at Equinix. Amy, thank you for finally giving in to my endless wheedling.Amy: Thanks for having me. You mentioned the before-times. Like, I remember it was, like, right before the pandemic we had beers in San Francisco wasn't it? There was Ian there—Corey: Yeah, I—Amy: —and a couple other people. It was a really great time. And then—Corey: I vaguely remember beer. Yeah. And then—Amy: And then the world ended.Corey: Oh, my God. Yes. It's still March of 2020, right?Amy: As far as I know. Like, I haven't checked in a couple years.Corey: So, you do an awful lot. And it's always a difficult question to ask someone, so can you encapsulate your entire existence in a paragraph? It's—Amy: [sigh].Corey: —awful, so I'd like to give a bit more structure to it. Let's start with the introduction: You are a Senior Principal Engineer. We know it's high level because of all the adjectives that get put in there, and none of those adjectives are ‘associate' or ‘beginner' or ‘junior,' or all the other diminutives that companies like to play games with to justify paying people less. And you're at Equinix, which is a company that is a bit unlike most of the, shall we say, traditional cloud providers. What do you do over there and both as a company, as a person?Amy: So, as a company Equinix, what most people know about is that we have a whole bunch of data centers all over the world. I think we have the most of any company. And what we do is we lease out space in that data center, and then we have a number of other products that people don't know as well, which one is Equinix Metal, which is what I specifically work on, where we rent you bare-metal servers. None of that fancy stuff that you get any other clouds on top of it, there's things you can get that are… partner things that you can add-on, like, you know, storage and other things like that, but we just deliver you bare-metal servers with really great networking. So, what I work on is the reliability of that whole system. All of the things that go into provisioning the servers, making them come up, making sure that they get delivered to the server, make sure the API works right, all of that stuff.Corey: So, you're on the Equinix cloud side of the world more so than you are on the building data centers by the sweat of your brow, as they say?Amy: Correct. Yeah, yeah. Software side.Corey: Excellent. I spent some time in data centers in the early part of my career before cloud ate that. That was sort of cotemporaneous with the discovery that I'm the hardware destruction bunny, and I should go to great pains to keep my aura from anything expensive and important, like, you know, the SAN. So—Amy: Right, yeah.Corey: Companies moving out of data centers, and me getting out was a great thing.Amy: But the thing about SANs though, is, like, it might not be you. They're just kind of cursed from the start, right? They just always were kind of fussy and easy to break.Corey: Oh, yeah. I used to think—and I kid you not—that I had a limited upside to my career in tech because I sometimes got sloppy and I was fairly slow at crimping ethernet cables.Amy: [laugh].Corey: That is very similar to growing up in third grade when it became apparent that I was going to have problems in my career because my handwriting was sloppy. Yeah, it turns out the future doesn't look like we predicted it would.Amy: Oh, gosh. Are we going to talk about, like, neurological development now or… [laugh] okay, that's a thing I struggle with, too right, is I started typing as soon as they would let—in fact, before they would let me. I remember in high school, I had teachers who would grade me down for typing a paper out. They want me to handwrite it and I would go, “Cool. Go ahead and take a grade off because if I handwrite it, you're going to take two grades off my handwriting, so I'm cool with this deal.”Corey: Yeah, it was pretty easy early on. I don't know when the actual shift was, but it became more and more apparent that more and more things are moving towards a world where you could type. And I was almost five when I started working on that stuff, and that really wound up changing a lot of aspects of how I started seeing things. One thing I think you're probably fairly well known for is incidents. I want to be clear when I say that you are not the root cause as—“So, why are things broken?” “It's Amy again. What's she gotten into this time?” Great.Amy: [laugh]. But it does happen, but not all the time.Corey: Exa—it's a learning experience.Amy: Right.Corey: You've also been deeply involved with SREcon and a number of—a lot of aspects of what I will term—and please don't yell at me for this—SRE culture—Amy: Yeah.Corey: Which is sometimes a challenging thing to wind up describing or putting a definition around. The one that I've always been somewhat partial to is, “SRE is DevOps, except you worked at Google for a while.” I don't know how necessarily accurate that is, but it does rile people up.Amy: Yeah, it does. Dave Stanke actually did a really great talk at SREcon San Francisco just a couple weeks ago, about the DORA report. And the new DORA report, they split SRE out into its own function and kind of is pushing against that old model, which actually comes from Liz Fong-Jones—I think it's from her, or older—about, like, class SRE implements DevOps, which is kind of this idea that, like, SREs make DevOps happen. Things have evolved, right, since then. Things have evolved since Google released those books, and we're all just figured out what works and what doesn't a little bit.And so, it's not that we're implementing DevOps so much. In fact, it's that ops stuff that kind of holds us back from the really high impact work that SREs, I think, should be doing, that aren't just, like, fixing the problems, the symptoms down at the bottom layer, right? Like what we did as sysadmins 20 years ago. You know, we'd go and a lot of people are SREs that came out of the sysadmin world and still think in that mode, where it's like, “Well, I set up the systems, and when things break, I go and I fix them.” And, “Why did the developers keep writing crappy code? Why do I have to always getting up in the middle of the night because this thing crashed?”And it turns out that the work we need to do to make things more reliable, there's a ceiling to how far away the platform can take us, right? Like, we can have the best platform in the world with redundancy, and, you know, nine-way replicated data storage and all this crazy stuff, and still if we put crappy software on top, it's going to be unreliable. So, how do we make less crappy software? And for most of my career, people would be, like, “Well, you should test it.” And so, we started doing that, and we still have crappy software, so what's going on here? We still have incidents.So, we write more tests, and we still have incidents. We had a QA group, we still have incidents. We send the developers to training, and we still have incidents. So like, what is the thing we need to do to make things more reliable? And it turns out, most of it is culture work.Corey: My perspective on this stems from being a grumpy old sysadmin. And at some point, I started calling myself a systems engineer or DevOps or production engineer, or SRE. It was all from my point of view, the same job, but you know, if you call yourself a sysadmin, you're just asking for a 40% pay cut off the top.Amy: [laugh].Corey: But I still tended to view the world through that lens. I tended to be very good at Linux systems internals, for example, understanding system calls and the rest, but increasingly, as the DevOps wave or SRE wave, or Google-isation of the internet wound up being more and more of a thing, I found myself increasingly in job interviews, where, “Great, now, can you go wind up implementing a sorting algorithm on the whiteboard?” “What on earth? No.” Like, my lingua franca is shitty Bash, and no one tends to write that without a bunch of tab completions and quick checking with manpages—die.net or whatnot—on the fly as you go down that path.And it was awful, and I felt… like my skill set was increasingly eroding. And it wasn't honestly until I started this place where I really got into writing a fair bit of code to do different things because it felt like an orthogonal skill set, but the fullness of time, it seems like it's not. And it's a reskilling. And it made me wonder, does this mean that the areas of technology that I focused on early in my career, was that all a waste? And the answer is not really. Sometimes, sure, in that I don't spend nearly as much time worrying about inodes—for example—as I once did. But every once in a while, I'll run into something and I looked like a wizard from the future, but instead, I'm a wizard from the past.Amy: Yeah, I find that a lot in my work, now. Sometimes things I did 20 years ago, come back, and it's like, oh, yeah, I remember I did all that threading work in 2002 in Perl, and I learned everything the very, very, very hard way. And then, you know, this January, did some threading work to fix some stability issues, and all of it came flooding back, right? Just that the experiences really, more than the code or the learning or the text and stuff; more just the, like, this feels like threads [BLEEP]-ery. Is a diagnostic thing that sometimes we have to say.And then people are like, “Can you prove it?” And I'm like, “Not really,” because it's literally thread [BLEEP]-ery. Like, the definition of it is that there's weird stuff happening that we can't figure out why it's happening. There's something acting in the system that isn't synchronized, that isn't connected to other things, that's happening out of order from what we expect, and if we had a clear signal, we would just fix it, but we don't. We just have, like, weird stuff happening over here and then over there and over there and over there.And, like, that tells me there's just something happening at that layer and then have to go and dig into that right, and like, just basically charge through. My colleagues are like, “Well, maybe you should look at this, and go look at the database,” the things that they're used to looking at and that their experiences inform, whereas then I bring that ancient toiling through the threading mines experiences back and go, “Oh, yeah. So, let's go find where this is happening, where people are doing dangerous things with threads, and see if we can spot something.” But that came from that experience.Corey: And there's so much that just repeats itself. And history rhymes. The challenge is that, do you have 20 years of experience, or do you have one year of experience repeated 20 times? And as the tide rises, doing the same task by hand, it really is just a matter of time before your full-time job winds up being something a piece of software does. An easy example is, “Oh, what's your job?” “I manually place containers onto specific hosts.” “Well, I've got news for you, and you're not going to like it at all.”Amy: Yeah, yeah. I think that we share a little bit. I'm allergic to repeated work. I don't know if allergic is the right word, but you know, if I sit and I do something once, fine. Like, I'll just crank it out, you know, it's this form, or it's a datafile I got to write and I'll—fine I'll type it in and do the manual labor.The second time, the difficulty goes up by ten, right? Like, just mentally, just to do it, be like, I've already done this once. Doing it again is anathema to everything that I am. And then sometimes I'll get through it, but after that, like, writing a program is so much easier because it's like exponential, almost, growth in difficulty. You know, the third time I have to do the same thing that's like just typing the same stuff—like, look over here, read this thing and type it over here—I'm out; I can't do it. You know, I got to find a way to automate. And I don't know, maybe normal people aren't driven to live this way, but it's kept me from getting stuck in those spots, too.Corey: It was weird because I spent a lot of time as a consultant going from place to place and it led to some weird changes. For example, “Oh, thank God, I don't have to think about that whole messaging queue thing.” Sure enough, next engagement, it's message queue time. Fantastic. I found that repeating myself drove me nuts, but you also have to be very sensitive not to wind up, you know, stealing IP from the people that you're working with.Amy: Right.Corey: But what I loved about the sysadmin side of the world is that the vast majority of stuff that I've taken with me, lives in my shell config. And what I mean by that is I'm not—there's nothing in there is proprietary, but when you have a weird problem with trying to figure out the best way to figure out which Ruby process is stealing all the CPU, great, turns out that you can chain seven or eight different shell commands together through a bunch of pipes. I don't want to remember that forever. So, that's the sort of thing I would wind up committing as I learned it. I don't remember what company I picked that up at, but it was one of those things that was super helpful.I have a sarcastic—it's a one-liner, except no sane editor setting is going to show it in any less than three—of a whole bunch of Perl, piped into du, piped into the rest, that tells you one of the largest consumers of files in a given part of the system. And it rates them with stars and it winds up doing some neat stuff. I would never sit down and reinvent something like that today, but the fact that it's there means that I can do all kinds of neat tricks when I need to. It's making sure that as you move through your career, on some level, you're picking up skills that are repeatable and applicable beyond one company.Amy: Skills and tooling—Corey: Yeah.Amy: —right? Like, you just described the tool. Another SREcon talk was John Allspaw and Dr. Richard Cook talking about above the line; below the line. And they started with these metaphors about tools, right, showing all the different kinds of hammers.And if you're a blacksmith, a lot of times you craft specialized hammers for very specific jobs. And that's one of the properties of a tool that they were trying to get people to think about, right, is that tools get crafted to the job. And what you just described as a bespoke tool that you had created on the fly, that kind of floated under the radar of intellectual property. [laugh].So, let's not tell the security or IP people right? Like, because there's probably billions and billions of dollars of technically, like, made-up IP value—I'm doing air quotes with my fingers—you know, that's just basically people's shell profiles. And my God, the Emacs automation that people have done. If you've ever really seen somebody who's amazing at Emacs and is 10, 20, 30, maybe 40 years of experience encoded in their emacs settings, it's a wonder to behold. Like, I look at it and I go, “Man, I wish I could do that.”It's like listening to a really great guitar player and be like, “Wow, I wish I could play like them.” You see them just flying through stuff. But all that IP in there is both that person's collection of wisdom and experience and working with that code, but also encodes that stuff like you described, right? It's just all these little systems tricks and little fiddly commands and things we don't want to remember and so we encode them into our toolset.Corey: Oh, yeah. Anything I wound up taking, I always would share it with people internally, too. I'd mention, “Yeah, I'm keeping this in my shell files.” Because I disclosed it, which solves a lot of the problem. And also, none of it was even close to proprietary or anything like that. I'm sorry, but the way that you wind up figuring out how much of a disk is being eaten up and where in a more pleasing way, is not a competitive advantage. It just isn't.Amy: It isn't to you or me, but, you know, back in the beginning of our careers, people thought it was worth money and should be proprietary. You know, like, oh, that disk-checking script as a competitive advantage for our company because there are only a few of us doing this work. Like, it was actually being able to, like, manage your—[laugh] actually manage your servers was a competitive advantage. Now, it's kind of commodity.Corey: Let's also be clear that the world has moved on. I wound up buying a DaisyDisk a while back for Mac, which I love. It is a fantastic, pretty effective, “Where's all the stuff on your disk going?” And it does a scan and you can drive and collect things and delete them when trying to clean things out. I was using it the other day, so it's top of mind at the moment.But it's way more polished than that crappy Perl three-liner. And I see both sides, truly I do. The trick also, for those wondering [unintelligible 00:15:45], like, “Where is the line?” It's super easy. Disclose it, what you're doing, in those scenarios in the event someone is no because they believe that finding the right man page section for something is somehow proprietary.Great. When you go home that evening in a completely separate environment, build it yourself from scratch to solve the problem, reimplement it and save that. And you're done. There are lots of ways to do this. Don't steal from your employer, but your employer employs you; they don't own you and the way that you think about these problems.Every person I've met who has had a career that's longer than 20 minutes has a giant doc somewhere on some system of all of the scripts that they wound up putting together, all of the one-liners, the notes on, “Next time you see this, this is the thing to check.”Amy: Yeah, the cheat sheet or the notebook with all the little commands, or again the Emacs config, sometimes for some people, or shell profiles. Yeah.Corey: Here's the awk one-liner that I put that automatically spits out from an Apache log file what—the httpd log file that just tells me what are the most frequent talkers, and what are the—Amy: You should probably let go of that one. You know, like, I think that one's lifetime is kind of past, Corey. Maybe you—Corey: I just have to get it working with Nginx, and we're good to go.Amy: Oh, yeah, there you go. [laugh].Corey: Or S3 access logs. Perish the thought. But yeah, like, what are the five most high-volume talkers, and what are those relative to each other? Huh, that one thing seems super crappy and it's coming from Russia. But that's—hmm, one starts to wonder; maybe it's time to dig back in.So, one of the things that I have found is that a lot of the people talking about SRE seem to have descended from an ivory tower somewhere. And they're talking about how some of the best-in-class companies out there, renowned for their technical cultures—at least externally—are doing these things. But there's a lot more folks who are not there. And honestly, I consider myself one of those people who is not there. I was a competent engineer, but never a terrific one.And looking at the way this was described, I often came away thinking, “Okay, it was the purpose of this conference talk just to reinforce how smart people are, and how I'm not,” and/or, “There are the 18 cultural changes you need to make to your company, and then you can do something kind of like we were just talking about on stage.” It feels like there's a combination of problems here. One is making this stuff more accessible to folks who are not themselves in those environments, and two, how to drive cultural change as an individual contributor if that's even possible. And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you have thoughts on both aspects of that, and probably some more hit me, please.Amy: So, the ivory tower, right. Let's just be straight up, like, the ivory tower is Google. I mean, that's where it started. And we get it from the other large companies that, you know, want to do conference talks about what this stuff means and what it does. What I've kind of come around to in the last couple of years is that those talks don't really reach the vast majority of engineers, they don't really apply to a large swath of the enterprise especially, which is, like, where a lot of the—the bulk of our industry sits, right? We spend a lot of time talking about the darlings out here on the West Coast in high tech culture and startups and so on.But, like, we were talking about before we started the show, right, like, the interior of even just America, is filled with all these, like, insurance and banks and all of these companies that are cranking out tons of code and servers and stuff, and they're trying to figure out the same problems. But they're structured in companies where their tech arm is still, in most cases, considered a cost center, often is bundled under finance, for—that's a whole show of itself about that historical blunder. And so, the tech culture is tend to be very, very different from what we experience in—what do we call it anymore? Like, I don't even want to say West Coast anymore because we've gone remote, but, like, high tech culture we'll say. And so, like, thinking about how to make SRE and all this stuff more accessible comes down to, like, thinking about who those engineers are that are sitting at the computers, writing all the code that runs our banks, all the code that makes sure that—I'm trying to think of examples that are more enterprise-y right?Or shoot buying clothes online. You go to Macy's for example. They have a whole bunch of servers that run their online store and stuff. They have internal IT-ish people who keep all this stuff running and write that code and probably integrating open-source stuff much like we all do. But when you go to try to put in a reliability program that's based on the current SRE models, like SLOs; you put in SLOs and you start doing, like, this incident management program that's, like, you know, you have a form you fill out after every incident, and then you [unintelligible 00:20:25] retros.And it turns out that those things are very high-level skills, skills and capabilities in an organization. And so, when you have this kind of IT mindset or the enterprise mindset, bringing the culture together to make those things work often doesn't happen. Because, you know, they'll go with the prescriptive model and say, like, okay, we're going to implement SLOs, we're going to start measuring SLIs on all of the services, and we're going to hold you accountable for meeting those targets. If you just do that, right, you're just doing more gatekeeping and policing of your tech environment. My bet is, reliability almost never improves in those cases.And that's been my experience, too, and why I get charged up about this is, if you just go slam in these practices, people end up miserable, the practices then become tarnished because people experienced the worst version of them. And then—Corey: And with the remote explosion as well, it turns out that changing jobs basically means their company sends you a different Mac, and the next Monday, you wind up signing into a different Slack team.Amy: Yeah, so the culture really matters, right? You can't cover it over with foosball tables and great lunch. You actually have to deliver tools that developers want to use and you have to deliver a software engineering culture that brings out the best in developers instead of demanding the best from developers. I think that's a fundamental business shift that's kind of happening. If I'm putting on my wizard hat and looking into the future and dreaming about what might change in the world, right, is that there's kind of a change in how we do leadership and how we do business that's shifting more towards that model where we look at what people are capable of and we trust in our people, and we get more out of them, the knowledge work model.If we want more knowledge work, we need people to be happy and to feel engaged in their community. And suddenly we start to see these kind of generational, bigger-pie kind of things start to happen. But how do we get there? It's not SLOs. It maybe it's a little bit starting with incidents. That's where I've had the most success, and you asked me about that. So, getting practical, incident management is probably—Corey: Right. Well, as I see it, the problem with SLOs across the board is it feels like it's a very insular community so far, and communicating it to engineers seems to be the focus of where the community has been, but from my understanding of it, you absolutely need buy-in at significantly high executive levels, to at the very least by you air cover while you're doing these things and making these changes, but also to help drive that cultural shift. None of this is something I have the slightest clue how to do, let's be very clear. If I knew how to change a company's culture, I'd have a different job.Amy: Yeah. [laugh]. The biggest omission in the Google SRE books was [Ers 00:22:58]. There was a guy at Google named Ers who owns availability for Google, and when anything is, like, in dispute and bubbles up the management team, it goes to Ers, and he says, “Thou shalt…” right? Makes the call. And that's why it works, right?Like, it's not just that one person, but that system of management where the whole leadership team—there's a large, very well-funded team with a lot of power in the organization that can drive availability, and they can say, this is how you're going to do metrics for your service, and this is the system that you're in. And it's kind of, yeah, sure it works for them because they have all the organizational support in place. What I was saying to my team just the other day—because we're in the middle of our SLO rollout—is that really, I think an SLO program isn't [clear throat] about the engineers at all until late in the game. At the beginning of the game, it's really about getting the leadership team on board to say, “Hey, we want to put in SLIs and SLOs to start to understand the functioning of our software system.” But if they don't have that curiosity in the first place, that desire to understand how well their teams are doing, how healthy their teams are, don't do it. It's not going to work. It's just going to make everyone miserable.Corey: It feels like it's one of those difficult to sell problems as well, in that it requires some tooling changes, absolutely. It requires cultural change and buy-in and whatnot, but in order for that to happen, there has to be a painful problem that a company recognizes and is willing to pay to make go away. The problem with stuff like this is that once you pay, there's a lot of extra work that goes on top of it as well, that does not have a perception—rightly or wrongly—of contributing to feature velocity, of hitting the next milestone. It's, “Really? So, we're going to be spending how much money to make engineers happier? They should get paid an awful lot and they're still complaining and never seem happy. Why do I care if they're happy other than the pure mercenary perspective of otherwise they'll quit?” I'm not saying that it's not worth pursuing; it's not a worthy goal. I am saying that it becomes a very difficult thing to wind up selling as a product.Amy: Well, as a product for sure, right? Because—[sigh] gosh, I have friends in the space who work on these tools. And I want to be careful.Corey: Of course. Nothing but love for all of those people, let's be very clear.Amy: But a lot of them, you know, they're pulling metrics from existing monitoring systems, they are doing some interesting math on them, but what you get at the end is a nice service catalog and dashboard, which are things we've been trying to land as products in this industry for as long as I can remember, and—Corey: “We've got it this time, though. This time we'll crack the nut.” Yeah. Get off the island, Gilligan.Amy: And then the other, like, risky thing, right, is the other part that makes me uncomfortable about SLOs, and why I will often tell folks that I talk to out in the industry that are asking me about this, like, one-on-one, “Should I do it here?” And it's like, you can bring the tool in, and if you have a management team that's just looking to have metrics to drive productivity, instead of you know, trying to drive better knowledge work, what you get is just a fancier version of more Taylorism, right, which is basically scientific management, this idea that we can, like, drive workers to maximum efficiency by measuring random things about them and driving those numbers. It turns out, that doesn't really work very well, even in industrial scale, it just happened to work because, you know, we have a bloody enough society that we pushed people into it. But the reality is, if you implement SLOs badly, you get more really bad Taylorism that's bad for you developers. And my suspicion is that you will get worse availability out of it than you would if you just didn't do it at all.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Revelo. Revelo is the Spanish word of the day, and its spelled R-E-V-E-L-O. It means “I reveal.” Now, have you tried to hire an engineer lately? I assure you it is significantly harder than it sounds. One of the things that Revelo has recognized is something I've been talking about for a while, specifically that while talent is evenly distributed, opportunity is absolutely not. They're exposing a new talent pool to, basically, those of us without a presence in Latin America via their platform. It's the largest tech talent marketplace in Latin America with over a million engineers in their network, which includes—but isn't limited to—talent in Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil, and Argentina. Now, not only do they wind up spreading all of their talent on English ability, as well as you know, their engineering skills, but they go significantly beyond that. Some of the folks on their platform are hands down the most talented engineers that I've ever spoken to. Let's also not forget that Latin America has high time zone overlap with what we have here in the United States, so you can hire full-time remote engineers who share most of the workday as your team. It's an end-to-end talent service, so you can find and hire engineers in Central and South America without having to worry about, frankly, the colossal pain of cross-border payroll and benefits and compliance because Revelo handles all of it. If you're hiring engineers, check out revelo.io/screaming to get 20% off your first three months. That's R-E-V-E-L-O dot I-O slash screaming.Corey: That is part of the problem is, in some cases, to drive some of these improvements, you have to go backwards to move forwards. And it's one of those, “Great, so we spent all this effort and money in the rest of now things are worse?” No, not necessarily, but suddenly are aware of things that were slipping through the cracks previously.Amy: Yeah. Yeah.Corey: Like, the most realistic thing about first The Phoenix Project and then The Unicorn Project, both by Gene Kim, has been the fact that companies have these problems and actively cared enough to change it. In my experience, that feels a little on the rare side.Amy: Yeah, and I think that's actually the key, right? It's for the culture change, and for, like, if you really looking to be, like, do I want to work at this company? Am I investing my myself in here? Is look at the leadership team and be, like, do these people actually give a crap? Are they looking just to punt another number down the road?That's the real question, right? Like, the technology and stuff, at the point where I'm at in my career, I just don't care that much anymore. [laugh]. Just… fine, use Kubernetes, use Postgres, [unintelligible 00:27:30], I don't care. I just don't. Like, Oracle, I might have to ask, you know, go to finance and be like, “Hey, can we spend 20 million for a database?” But like, nobody really asks for that anymore, so. [laugh].Corey: As one does. I will say that I mostly agree with you, but a technology that I found myself getting excited about, given the time of the recording on this is… fun, I spent a bit of time yesterday—from when we're recording this—teaching myself just enough Go to wind up being together a binary that I needed to do something actively ridiculous for my camera here. And I found myself coming away deeply impressed by a lot of things about it, how prescriptive it was for one, how self-contained for another. And after spending far too many years of my life writing shitty Perl, and shitty Bash, and worse Python, et cetera, et cetera, the prescriptiveness was great. The fact that it wound up giving me something I could just run, I could cross-compile for anything I need to run it on, and it just worked. It's been a while since I found a technology that got me this interested in exploring further.Amy: Go is great for that. You mentioned one of my two favorite features of Go. One is usually when a program compiles—at least the way I code in Go—it usually works. I've been working with Go since about 0.9, like, just a little bit before it was released as 1.0, and that's what I've noticed over the years of working with it is that most of the time, if you have a pretty good data structure design and you get the code to compile, usually it's going to work, unless you're doing weird stuff.The other thing I really love about Go and that maybe you'll discover over time is the malleability of it. And the reason why I think about that more than probably most folks is that I work on other people's code most of the time. And maybe this is something that you probably run into with your business, too, right, where you're working on other people's infrastructure. And the way that we encode business rules and things in the languages, in our programming language or our config syntax and stuff has a huge impact on folks like us and how quickly we can come into a situation, assess, figure out what's going on, figure out where things are laid out, and start making changes with confidence.Corey: Forget other people for a minute they're looking at what I built out three or four years ago here, myself, like, I look at past me, it's like, “What was that rat bastard thinking? This is awful.” And it's—forget other people's code; hell is your own code, on some level, too, once it's slipped out of the mental stack and you have to re-explore it and, “Oh, well thank God I defensively wound up not including any comments whatsoever explaining what the living hell this thing was.” It's terrible. But you're right, the other people's shell scripts are finicky and odd.I started poking around for help when I got stuck on something, by looking at GitHub, and a few bit of searching here and there. Even these large, complex, well-used projects started making sense to me in a way that I very rarely find. It's, “What the hell is that thing?” is my most common refrain when I'm looking at other people's code, and Go for whatever reason avoids that, I think because it is so prescriptive about formatting, about how things should be done, about the vision that it has. Maybe I'm romanticizing it and I'll hate it and a week from now, and I want to go back and remove this recording, but.Amy: The size of the language helps a lot.Corey: Yeah.Amy: But probably my favorite. It's more of a convention, which actually funny the way I'm going to talk about this because the two languages I work on the most right now are Ruby and Go. And I don't feel like two languages could really be more different.Syntax-wise, they share some things, but really, like, the mental models are so very, very different. Ruby is all the way in on object-oriented programming, and, like, the actual real kind of object-oriented with messaging and stuff, and, like, the whole language kind of springs from that. And it kind of requires you to understand all of these concepts very deeply to be effective in large programs. So, what I find is, when I approach Ruby codebase, I have to load all this crap into my head and remember, “Okay, so yeah, there's this convention, when you do this kind of thing in Ruby”—or especially Ruby on Rails is even worse because they go deep into convention over configuration. But what that's code for is, this code is accessible to people who have a lot of free cognitive capacity to load all this convention into their heads and keep it in their heads so that the code looks pretty, right?And so, that's the trade-off as you said, okay, my developers have to be these people with all these spare brain cycles to understand, like, why I would put the code here in this place versus this place? And all these, like, things that are in the code, like, very compact, dense concepts. And then you go to something like Go, which is, like, “Nah, we're not going to do Lambdas. Nah”—[laugh]—“We're not doing all this fancy stuff.” So, everything is there on the page.This drives some people crazy, right, is that there's all this boilerplate, boilerplate, boilerplate. But the reality is, I can read most Go files from top to the bottom and understand what the hell it's doing, whereas I can go sometimes look at, like, a Ruby thing, or sometimes Python and e—Perl is just [unintelligible 00:32:19] all the time, right, it's there's so much indirection. And it just be, like, “What the [BLEEP] is going on? This is so dense. I'm going to have to sit down and write it out in longhand so I can understand what the developer was even doing here.” And—Corey: Well, that's why I got the Mac Studio; for when I'm not doing A/V stuff with it, that means that I'll have one core that I can use for, you know, front-end processing and the rest, and the other 19 cores can be put to work failing to build Nokogiri in Ruby yet again.Amy: [laugh].Corey: I remember the travails of working with Ruby, and the problem—I have similar problems with Python, specifically in that—I don't know if I'm special like this—it feels like it's a SRE DevOps style of working, but I am grabbing random crap off a GitHub constantly and running it, like, small scripts other people have built. And let's be clear, I run them on my test AWS account that has nothing important because I'm not a fool that I read most of it before I run it, but I also—it wants a different version of Python every single time. It wants a whole bunch of other things, too. And okay, so I use ASDF as my version manager for these things, which for whatever reason, does not work for the way that I think about this ergonomically. Okay, great.And I wind up with detritus scattered throughout my system. It's, “Hey, can you make this reproducible on my machine?” “Almost certainly not, but thank you for asking.” It's like ‘Step 17: Master the Wolf' level of instructions.Amy: And I think Docker generally… papers over the worst of it, right, is when we built all this stuff in the aughts, you know, [CPAN 00:33:45]—Corey: Dev containers and VS Code are very nice.Amy: Yeah, yeah. You know, like, we had CPAN back in the day, I was doing chroots, I think in, like, '04 or '05, you know, to solve this problem, right, which is basically I just—screw it; I will compile an entire distro into a directory with a Perl and all of its dependencies so that I can isolate it from the other things I want to run on this machine and not screw up and not have these interactions. And I think that's kind of what you're talking about is, like, the old model, when we deployed servers, there was one of us sitting there and then we'd log into the server and be like, I'm going to install the Perl. You know, I'll compile it into, like, [/app/perl 558 00:34:21] whatever, and then I'll CPAN all this stuff in, and I'll give it over to the developer, tell them to set their shebang to that and everything just works. And now we're in a mode where it's like, okay, you got to set up a thousand of those. “Okay, well, I'll make a tarball.” [laugh]. But it's still like we had to just—Corey: DevOps, but [unintelligible 00:34:37] dev closer to ops. You're interrelating all the time. Yeah, then Docker comes along, and add dev is, like, “Well, here's the container. Good luck, asshole.” And it feels like it's been cast into your yard to worry about.Amy: Yeah, well, I mean, that's just kind of business, or just—Corey: Yeah. Yeah.Amy: I'm not sure if it's business or capitalism or something like that, but just the idea that, you know, if I can hand off the shitty work to some other poor schlub, why wouldn't I? I mean, that's most folks, right? Like, just be like, “Well”—Corey: Which is fair.Amy: —“I got it working. Like, my part is done, I did what I was supposed to do.” And now there's a lot of folks out there, that's how they work, right? “I hit done. I'm done. I shipped it. Sure. It's an old [unintelligible 00:35:16] Ubuntu. Sure, there's a bunch of shell scripts that rip through things. Sure”—you know, like, I've worked on repos where there's hundreds of things that need to be addressed.Corey: And passing to someone else is fine. I'm thrilled to do it. Where I run into problems with it is where people assume that well, my part was the hard part and anything you schlubs do is easy. I don't—Amy: Well, that's the underclass. Yeah. That's—Corey: Forget engineering for a second; I throw things to the people over in the finance group here at The Duckbill Group because those people are wizards at solving for this thing. And it's—Amy: Well, that's how we want to do things.Corey: Yeah, specialization works.Amy: But we have this—it's probably more cultural. I don't want to pick, like, capitalism to beat on because this is really, like, human cultural thing, and it's not even really particularly Western. Is the idea that, like, “If I have an underclass, why would I give a shit what their experience is?” And this is why I say, like, ops teams, like, get out of here because most ops teams, the extant ops teams are still called ops, and a lot of them have been renamed SRE—but they still do the same job—are an underclass. And I don't mean that those people are below us. People are treated as an underclass, and they shouldn't be. Absolutely not.Corey: Yes.Amy: Because the idea is that, like, well, I'm a fancy person who writes code at my ivory tower, and then it all flows down, and those people, just faceless people, do the deployment stuff that's beneath me. That attitude is the most toxic thing, I think, in tech orgs to address. Like, if you're trying to be like, “Well, our liability is bad, we have security problems, people won't fix their code.” And go look around and you will find people that are treated as an underclass that are given codes thrown over the wall at them and then they just have to toil through and make it work. I've worked on that a number of times in my career.And I think just like saying, underclass, right, or caste system, is what I found is the most effective way to get people actually thinking about what the hell is going on here. Because most people are just, like, “Well, that's just the way things are. It's just how we've always done it. The developers write to code, then give it to the sysadmins. The sysadmins deploy the code. Isn't that how it always works?”Corey: You'd really like to hope, wouldn't you?Amy: [laugh]. Not me. [laugh].Corey: Again, the way I see it is, in theory—in theory—sysadmins, ops, or that should not exist. People should theoretically be able to write code as developers that just works, the end. And write it correct the first time and never have to change it again. Yeah. There's a reason that I always like to call staging environments in places I work ‘theory' because it works in theory, but not in production, and that is fundamentally the—like, that entire job role is the difference between theory and practice.Amy: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's the problem with it. We're already so disconnected from the physical world, right? Like, you and I right now are talking over multiple strands of glass and digital transcodings and things right now, right? Like, we are detached from the physical reality.You mentioned earlier working in data centers, right? The thing I miss about it is, like, the physicality of it. Like, actually, like, I held a server in my arms and put it in the rack and slid it into the rails. I plugged into power myself; I pushed the power button myself. There's a server there. I physically touched it.Developers who don't work in production, we talked about empathy and stuff, but really, I think the big problem is when they work out in their idea space and just writing code, they write the unit tests, if we're very lucky, they'll write a functional test, and then they hand that wad off to some poor ops group. They're detached from the reality of operations. It's not even about accountability; it's about experience. The ability to see all of the weird crap we deal with, right? You know, like, “Well, we pushed the code to that server, but there were three bit flips, so we had to do it again. And then the other server, the disk failed. And on the other server…” You know? [laugh].It's just, there's all this weird crap that happens, these systems are so complex that they're always doing something weird. And if you're a developer that just spends all day in your IDE, you don't get to see that. And I can't really be mad at those folks, as individuals, for not understanding our world. I figure out how to help them, and the best thing we've come up with so far is, like, well, we start giving this—some responsibility in a production environment so that they can learn that. People do that, again, is another one that can be done wrong, where it turns into kind of a forced empathy.I actually really hate that mode, where it's like, “We're forcing all the developers online whether they like it or not. On-call whether they like it or not because they have to learn this.” And it's like, you know, maybe slow your roll a little buddy because the stuff is actually hard to learn. Again, minimizing how hard ops work is. “Oh, we'll just put the developers on it. They'll figure it out, right? They're software engineers. They're probably smarter than you sysadmins.” Is the unstated thing when we do that, right? When we throw them in the pit and be like, “Yeah, they'll get it.” [laugh].Corey: And that was my problem [unintelligible 00:39:49] the interview stuff. It was in the write code on a whiteboard. It's, “Look, I understood how the system fundamentally worked under the hood.” Being able to power my way through to get to an outcome even in language I don't know, was sort of part and parcel of the job. But this idea of doing it in artificially constrained environment, in a language I'm not super familiar with, off the top of my head, it took me years to get to a point of being able to do it with a Bash script because who ever starts with an empty editor and starts getting to work in a lot of these scenarios? Especially in an ops role where we're not building something from scratch.Amy: That's the interesting thing, right? In the majority of tech work today—maybe 20 years ago, we did it more because we were literally building the internet we have today. But today, most of the engineers out there working—most of us working stiffs—are working on stuff that already exists. We're making small incremental changes, which is great that's what we're doing. And we're dealing with old code.Corey: We're gluing APIs together, and that's fine. Ugh. I really want to thank you for taking so much time to talk to me about how you see all these things. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, where's the best place to find you?Amy: I'm on Twitter every once in a while as @MissAmyTobey, M-I-S-S-A-M-Y-T-O-B-E-Y. I have a blog I don't write on enough. And there's a couple things on the Equinix Metal blog that I've written, so if you're looking for that. Otherwise, mainly Twitter.Corey: And those links will of course be in the [show notes 00:41:08]. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.Amy: I had fun. Thank you.Corey: As did I. Amy Tobey, Senior Principal Engineer at Equinix. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, or on the YouTubes, smash the like and subscribe buttons, as the kids say. Whereas if you've hated this episode, same thing, five-star review all the platforms, smash the buttons, but also include an angry comment telling me that you're about to wind up subpoenaing a copy of my shell script because you're convinced that your intellectual property and secrets are buried within.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Sunglasses optional as Derek and Rachel chat about summer vacation. Specifically, what to pack, when to pack, and how to pack. But what comes before summer break? Of course, packing your return shipment of AP Exams. Learn all about the resources available to guide everyone through the packing list and packing process. It's all delivered in a sunshine-filled episode of Coordinated.Returning AP Exam Materials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jx-p8uJqB4Power Hour Live (April) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1543484&tp_key=999e534ccb  Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Administering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

It's the day before AP Exams and the rescheduling of students into late testing may have already begun. Listen in as Derek and Rachel share some real-time guidance on how to order an exam for alternate (late) testing. Plus what to do if a student decides that they're not going to take their AP Exam after all. Use this episode to learn how to indicate unused exams. A strong start to AP Exam administration begins right here, on Coordinated. Power Hour Live (April) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1543484&tp_key=999e534ccb  Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Administering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

With AP Exams just a few days away, Derek offers three thoughts to consider as advice to share with students. Yes, AP coordinators can impact a student's performance on test day. This quick bonus episode of Coordinated is worth its weight in gold. Power Hour Live (April) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1543484&tp_key=999e534ccb  Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Administering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Here's a riddle for AP coordinators: What's something you hope you don't need, but now have two options for when you do? Find out the answer as Rachel turns the tables and interviews Derek for information on Incident Reports and the new online option to submit. It's a special paper-less episode of Coordinated just in time for AP Exams. Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (April) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1543484&tp_key=999e534ccb  Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Administering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

We started the school year with Steps to Success. And now, as the AP Exam administration fast approaches, we'll hear from Rachel about the final steps she takes to make exam day a success. Your steps for the day begin right here. Press Play on this bonus episode of Coordinated.Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (April) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1543484&tp_key=999e534ccb  Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Administering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Sign-in to AP Registration and Ordering as you hear an important reminder about the upcoming April 30 deadline to update and indicate fee reductions for students taking AP Exams. How much is the fee reduction? Where can I find information about the eligibility criteria? And what are some common questions from AP coordinators? Derek and Rachel are ready to share the answers. Just click Play to join this Coordinated conversation.Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (April) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1543484&tp_key=999e534ccb  Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Administering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

What personal and professional traits do AP coordinators say they have in common? Count the similarities as you smile with Derek and a crew of multi-talented AP coordinators. It's a much-needed moment of fun before the AP Exam administration begins. Laugh out loud as you enjoy this bonus episode of Coordinated. Power Hour Live (April): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/44VvqKPower Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

AP Exam administration is fast approaching! How does Rachel prepare for exam day? What's on her list of supplies for exam proctors? Use your cell phone today to listen in but please… No cell phones for students on exam day! Learn what Rachel communicates to students before and on exam day. Hint: The message includes cell phones, of course! No extra pencils or pens required to benefit from this episode of Coordinated. Power Hour Live (April): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/44VvqKPower Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Administering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

It's a busy time for seemingly everyone… AP students, AP teachers, and of course, AP coordinators. So what can coordinators do to help AP students prepare for AP Exams? Press play on this Bonus Episode of Coordinated to hear a simple, but powerful call-to-action. Now is the time to learn about AP Daily: Live Review sessions. Advanced Placement YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/advancedplacementWatch AP Daily and AP Daily: Live Review videos on-demand in AP Classroom: https://myap.collegeboard.org. Schedule of AP Daily: Live Review Sessions: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/2022-ap-daily-live-review-schedule.pdfMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

There's a specific process for receiving and storing AP Exams once they arrive at your school. How does Rachel avoid waiting on the mail every day? What does “secure storage” mean? And what's the one question that Rachel refuses to answer? Don't miss a beat! Be sure to clap along with the rap on shrink-wrap on this episode of Coordinated. AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (April): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/44VvqKAdministering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Breaking News!Looking for help in managing extended time with the CD player for AP World Language Exams (French, German, Italian, and Spanish Language and Culture)? The search is over. Help is here in the form of a new Extended Time Resource! The time is now. Be sure to press Play on this special Breaking News Episode of Coordinated.Administering AP World Language Exams with Extended Time: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-extended-time-resource.pdf2022 AP Exam Instructions: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-exam-instructions.pdfChat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators  Power Hour Live: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators  Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

Blue masking tape? Posters? Clocks? Today's conversation takes us all over campus in search of the perfect exam room. Learn what makes for a good exam room, Rachel's go-to rooms for testing, and a few lessons that Derek learned the hard way. Get your measuring tape ready and mark off 5-feet of distance between you and the next podcast listener. It's time for the next episode of Coordinated!AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (April): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/44VvqKBenefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

It's time to put together your school's proctor schedule for the 2022 AP Exam administration. Review important details on proctor eligibility, learn who Rachel recruits for proctors, and the traits that strong proctors have in common. Plus Derek and Rachel blend their two voices together into a single conversation on the proctor-to-student ratio. Listen to this episode of Coordinated and the numbers are sure to add up! AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079  Power Hour Live (April): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/44VvqKBenefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

It's nearly Spring, and time to get your windows ready! Tune in as Derek and Rachel talk about preparation for this year's Standard and Late exam administration windows. They'll discuss the acceptable reasons for Late testing, including the more common ones, and the deadlines for ordering. A clearer view is just one click away on this episode of Coordinated.AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44Power Hour Live (March) - OnDemand Video: https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1534945&tp_key=3f53b03079Power Hour Live (April): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/44VvqKBenefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Gather all the details for March 15, 2022 in one Coordinated conversation. Tune in for an overview of the Spring course orders and fall order changes deadline, a discussion about indicating canceled exams, tips on how to reduce workload by doing so, and much more. Additional Master CDs not required for this listening section! It's double the insight, double the best practices, and double the laughs with Derek and Rachel on this episode of Coordinated.Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44Power Hour Live (March): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/DX9dqGPower Hour Live (April): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/44VvqKAP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part1AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsNew Analyses of AP Scores of 1 and 2: https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/new-analyses-ap-scores-1-and-2.pdfJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

This Coordinated conversation covers set-up, exam day activities, and related best practices for AP Chinese and AP Japanese Language and Culture Exams. Joining Derek is AP Program colleague, Kristen Pisanelli, to review this special computer-based, in-school exam administration. Benefit from this comprehensive review plus hear what's new for 2022. Headsets are optional for this episode but required on exam day. The preparation begins now with this home-run conversation on Coordinated.AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part2.pdfTech support: APiBTTech@ets.org | 609-406-5640 AP Chinese Language and Culture: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-chinese-language-and-culture/courseAP Japanese Language and Culture: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-japanese-language-and-culture/examChat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44Power Hour Live (March): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/DX9dqGPower Hour Live (April): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/44VvqKBenefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

It's a special duet today! Our coordinated journey takes us to South Carolina as Derek is joined by AP coordinator, Susan Barfield. Tap to the beat as Susan shares her 20+ years of experience with AP Music Theory. Hear an overview of the exam and exam day process, plus best practices sure to have you humming along. We're hitting all the high notes on this episode of Coordinated.AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live (February) - OnDemand Video:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1529346&tp_key=30c7d2dd44Power Hour Live (March): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/DX9dqGPower Hour Live (April): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/44VvqKBenefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Get your recording equipment ready! It's time to hear about the recording sessions for students taking AP French, German, Italian, Spanish Language, and AP Music Theory Exams. Options for streamlining the recording process, special equipment, and the exam room are just a sample of the topics covered by Derek and Rachel. Plus a bonus review of the Digital Audio Submission (DAS) portal. A must-listen for all AP coordinators wrapped up in a single episode of Coordinated.AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2DAS Help: collegeboard.org/ap-dasChat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

The is the year and this is the episode! Learn about using one of the most popular and easy-to-use options for digitally recording student responses. Derek and Rachel review the technology requirements, set-up, and best practices for using the Digital Audio Capture (DAC) app, a free solution for use on school-owned and -controlled iPads and Chromebooks. Enjoy a “pitch perfect” exam session for AP French, German, Italian, Spanish Language, and AP Music Theory Exams. The conversation is digitally captured right here on Coordinated.The AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: collegeboard.org/apcoordinatorsmanual-part2DAC help: collegeboard.org/ap-dasChat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Press the start button with AP Computer Science Principles! Listen in as Derek and special guest, Maureen Reyes, share insights on how this special course attracts a greater diversity of students to Computer Science by focusing on creative problem solving and real-world applications. Conversation includes the end of course exam and the AP coordinator's role. No prerequisites required for this episode of Coordinated. Chat with a Coordinator (hosted by Derek and Rachel): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/v70eKe Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators  Power Hour Live: https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/event/ac7ee1b4-dfef-44c9-9a0e-a87e8758521a/summaryAP Computer Science Principles: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-computer-science-principlesBring AP CSP to Your School: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-computer-science-principles/bring-csp-to-your-school?course=ap-computer-science-principlesResearch on AP CSP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-computer-science-principles/ap-csp-research-findings?course=ap-computer-science-principlesBenefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

The wait is over! The AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2 is here! Hosts Derek and Rachel are joined by special guest, Kimberly Casey, who shares highlights from the new manual. IR forms, health and safety protocols, student recording sessions during the exam, and Rachel's proctoring schedule are among the many topics covered. It's another highly coordinated effort here on Coordinated.AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 2: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part2.pdfChat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Breaking news for AP coordinators! A new filter option has been added to AP Registration and Ordering to help coordinators plan for Late Testing. Looking for a way to find all students who have exam conflicts? Looking for students with two exams on the same day at the same time? A new filter option is here! Don't miss this special announcement on Coordinated. AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdf Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators  Power Hour Live: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators  Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefits Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

An AP course with no prerequisites, AP Seminar helps a wide range of students develop their critical thinking, analytic writing, collaboration, and academic research skills on topics they get to choose. Listen in as Derek and special guest, Bianca Peart (Director, AP Capstone) share an elevating conversation about English 10 and AP Seminar. No prerequisites required to enjoy this episode of Coordinated.Elevate English 10 with AP Seminar: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-seminar/course/elevate-english-10AP Capstone Diploma Program: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-capstoneChat with a Coordinator (hosted by Derek and Rachel): https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/v70eKeChat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

This episode's definition of a triple-threat: Counselor – AP coordinator – And SSD coordinator! The latter role is highlighted today by Derek and Rachel, and their special guest, Karli Tsuge as they engage on the topic of SSD. Hear them talk about applying for accommodations, approved accommodations, special format exam materials, and ordering exams for students with accommodations. Continue preparation for AP Exam Administration with the crew from Coordinated!SSD online: https://accommodations.collegeboard.org/ssd-onlineAP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfChat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Power Hour Live: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinators Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefitsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

The new year launches a new season of Coordinated. Derek is joined by two AP coordinators and the conversation includes guidance on second semester student enrollment and how to best manage students who change class sections at the semester or trimester break. Plus AP coordinators Marc and Rachel, talk about two fantastic new supports. The new year is here! Time to get ready for the 2022 AP Exam administration. The Coordinated kick-off begins, right now!Chat with a Coordinator: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinatorsPower Hour Live: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/professional-learning/learning-opportunities-ap-coordinatorsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Our conversation on persistence continues. Sharing ideas on how to support students in their AP courses are two experienced administrators who are also AP coordinators. It's a package deal with Derek and his guests as we wrap-up Season 5 and the year, 2021 – all in the same episode. No holiday break is complete without this installment of Coordinated. Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefits Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

The academic behaviors and dispositions of students are key to success in AP. And student persistence is the topic of this conversation! Joining Derek are two experienced counselors who are also AP coordinators. They'll share their favorite ideas to help support students on their journey to complete the AP course and exam experience. It's our second-to-last episode of 2021! Persist with us on Coordinated. Benefits of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/discover-benefits Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

The Coordinated conversation continues as Derek asks AP coordinators to share some stories about how they celebrate students participating in AP courses. What do a wall of fame, lawn signs, special assemblies, and t-shirts have in common? The answer offers exciting options for many AP programs. Please join us and celebrate on this episode of Coordinated. 2022 In-School Digital AP Exams: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/digital-ap-exams Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Hard as it may be to believe, it's already that time of year when schools start the course selection process for the next school year. Choosing what AP courses to offer, when to offer them, and how to encourage student participation in AP courses are all on top of the “to do” list. Tune in, to hear AP coordinators share some peer perspective and ideas on student participation in AP. Don't miss this encouraging conversation here on Coordinated. 2022 In-School Digital AP Exams: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/digital-ap-exams  New Analyses of AP Scores of 1 and 2:  https://research.collegeboard.org/pdf/new-analyses-ap-scores-1-and-2.pdf Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Coordinating AP is more than preparing testing carts and creating seating charts! Many AP coordinators are also full-time school counselors, managing caseloads of hundreds of students, all the while encouraging participation in AP. In this episode, Derek and Rachel talk with Carrie Poehlein (Indianapolis, IN) and Ester Hall (Cincinnati, OH), who share tips and insight on how they're using new AP score research to support their students in preparation for college and beyond. Every score counts on this episode of Coordinated! New Analyses of AP Scores of 1 and 2:  https://research.collegeboard.org/pdf/new-analyses-ap-scores-1-and-2.pdf Impacts of AP: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/launch-grow-ap-program/grow/impacts2022 In-School Digital AP Exams: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/about-ap/digital-ap-examsJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

Season 5 of Coordinated launches with quick tip for AP coordinators to consider after AP Exam orders have been submitted. Just in time for Thanksgiving, Rachel dishes out the knowledge to help ensure exam rosters remain accurate and up to date. Experienced AP coordinators pay it forward with this helpful idea on the Season 5 premiere of Coordinated. Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

The final step of Season 4 is here. And it's one that's so important, Derek and Rachel called in several AP coordinators to help share their thoughts. The fall checklist is complete so now it's time to recognize AP coordinators for all they do to support their AP students. It's a collaborative moment of celebration on the season finale of Coordinated. Catch a quick video regarding Managing Student Enrollment in AP Registration and Ordering: https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingWatch a custom video of the Back-to-School AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfJoin the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

As the Final Ordering Deadline approaches, it's time for a final double-check... And time to submit that AP Exam order. Derek and Rachel set a Coordinated record for the shortest episode in Season 4 with a quick review of the second-to-last Step to Success. It's time to push the (submit) button on this episode of Coordinated! Catch a quick video regarding Managing Student Enrollment in AP Registration and Ordering: https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining Watch a custom video of the Back-to-School AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining  Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdf Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

Season 4 of Coordinated continues down the path to ordering AP Exams. Today's conversation helps us pick up speed as we review the process of verifying the exam status of Yes, No, and Undecided. And we hear an experienced AP coordinator share her perspective about AP Exam participation and building student confidence. Derek and Rachel keep marching forward through the Steps to Success on this episode of Coordinated. Catch a quick video regarding Managing Student Enrollment in AP Registration and Ordering: https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining Watch a custom video of the Back-to-School AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining  Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdf Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

It's time for a moving conversation about transfer students! Derek and Rachel review the enrollment process for transfer students, how they relate to specific actions for the AP coordinator, and how they impact exam fees. Plus, a special bonus story about a common misunderstanding when it comes to student transfers. There's a transfer of knowledge available right here on this episode of Coordinated. Register for a Mini-Workshop (Zoom power-hour): Week of October 24: https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/bODrwk Watch a custom video of the Back-to-School AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining  Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdf Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

As preparation to submit the AP Exam order picks up, this conversation about changes to student schedules and how those changes can relate to fees is a perfect rest stop. Catch your breath, pause to embrace a little self-care, and listen in as Derek and Rachel continue towards the finish line. The Steps to Success are moving quickly as we enter the home stretch! Get ready for that final burst on this episode of Coordinated. Register for a Mini-Workshop (Zoom power-hour): Week of October 17: https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/NxkYaM Week of October 24: https://eventreg.collegeboard.org/bODrwk Watch a custom video of the Back-to-School AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining  Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdf Join the AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

We know AP isn't the only thing going on this fall at high schools. There's Homecoming, football, volleyball, college applications, and more! But this episode, we only talk about one thing…Exam Only sections! What are Exam Only sections? Who creates them? Who enrolls in them and how? How can schools help Exam Only students prepare for the exam? Derek and Rachel ask and answer all this and more as part of the continuing journey forward on the Steps to Success on Coordinated. Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdf AP Exam Fee Collection Providers: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/exam-administration-ordering-scores/ordering-fees/exam-fees/managing-fee-collection/ap-exam-fee-collection-providers Register for a Mini-Workshop (Zoom power-hour): https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining Watch a custom video of the AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Back to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptx Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

Step right into a conversation about a key action for many schools in the fall… Collecting AP Exam fees. Derek and Rachel discuss tips for how to set up your AP program for success with information about fee reductions and best practices on how and when to consider collecting exam fees... Tips that some say are worth their weight in gold! Continue forward with the Steps to Success on this episode of Coordinated. Register for a Mini-Workshop (Zoom power-hour): https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining Watch a custom video of the AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortraining  Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdf AP Exam Fee Collection Providers: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/exam-administration-ordering-scores/ordering-fees/exam-fees/managing-fee-collection/ap-exam-fee-collection-providers AP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinators Back to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptx Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/ Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh 

As our Steps to Success have highlighted, AP coordinators take on many roles in support of their AP students. This episode reveals how a little detective work can help coordinators find the data to launch their own “track and chase” plan. Completing student enrollment is in sight! Please join Derek and Rachel as we all get one step closer to submitting that AP Exam order in this episode of Coordinated.Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfWatch a custom video of the AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsBack to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptxMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Enrolling students in class sections is the next Step to Success. Enjoy the conversation as Derek and Rachel review key questions such as… When does student enrollment take place? Who helps with the process? Do all students enroll? Will a chocolate-based incentive work? (Yes!). This episode has best practices to provide premium fuel as the journey continues on Coordinated.Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfWatch a custom video of the AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsBack to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptxMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

There's no interrupting our pace and precision as we continue with our Steps to Success in Season 4. This special Bonus Episode seamlessly slides in and brings with it a wry smile or two. Join Derek and many other AP coordinators as they share their thoughts on how to describe a superstar AP coordinator. The spotlight shines far and wide on this superstar Bonus Episode of Coordinated.Watch a custom video of the AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1468968&tp_key=45949373daDownload the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsBack to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptxMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

When we say join the conversation today, we're emphasizing “join.” That's the key word as Derek and Rachel dive into all things related to join codes. What are they? When are they used? What is the coordinator's role? The teacher's role? And how do students fit into the process? Plus, a major time-saving tip to share with all AP coordinators. Continue on with another step to success on this episode of Coordinated.Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfHelping Students Join Your AP Class Section:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/helping-students-join-your-ap-class-section-teachers.pdfWatch a custom video of the AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://globalmeet.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1468968&tp_key=45949373daAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsBack to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptxMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Students are in the spotlight today! Join Rachel and Derek as the conversation shines on College Board Student Accounts. They'll highlight why student access is so important (hint: AP Classroom instructional resources!), provide tips to assist students, and offer up some best practices from a veteran coordinator about managing the entire Student Account process. This is a big Step to Success as we continue moving forward on Coordinated.Student Account FAQ: https://pages.collegeboard.org/account-helpDownload the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfRegister for an AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsOutreach and Support Resources:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/launch-grow-ap-program/outreach-support-resourcesBack to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptxMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.instagram.com/jackierae/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

AP coordinators! It's time to grab your master schedule and create class sections in AP Registration and Ordering. Join Derek and Rachel as they review the role that AP Course Audit plays and the different class section options. Full year? Second Semester? Exam Only? It's all here… Plus a bonus Best Practice from a special guest! It's a “classy” episode for your listening pleasure. Join us on Coordinated!Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfRegister for an AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsOutreach and Support Resources:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/launch-grow-ap-program/outreach-support-resourcesBack to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptxMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.jackierae-music.com/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Ready to engage in a lively conversation about how best to track student exam decisions? Hear all about two options… Default and Advanced. Rachel shares what works best for her school and what goes into her decision. Plus, a bonus chat about the AP Participation Form. Learn how to save time with Step 3 on this episode of Coordinated.Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfRegister for an AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsOutreach and Support Resources:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/launch-grow-ap-program/outreach-support-resourcesBack to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptxAP coordinator Best Practice shared by Rachel: add @docusign.net to your email address book.Music by Jackie Rae:  https://www.jackierae-music.com/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

It's time to access and step back into AP Registration and Ordering. Catch up with Derek and Rachel as they discuss access codes, initial setup, and some bonus thoughts about hosting an effective AP Information Night. Be sure to take Step 2 before students return to school. The good-as-gold guidance and best practices are accessed early and often on this episode of Coordinated.Download the AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfRegister for an AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsOutreach and Support Resources:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/launch-grow-ap-program/outreach-support-resourcesBack to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptxMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.jackierae-music.com/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

Big plans in store for AP coordinators during Season 4! In fact, our first episode begins with “planning” in mind. Join Derek and Rachel as they embark on the journey at the start of school. Dive right into planning for a successful year of AP coordinating, including conversation around testing windows, exam ordering deadlines, and communication best practices. It's time to plan on this episode of Coordinated.AP Coordinator's Manual, Part 1:  https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-coordinators-manual-part-1.pdfAP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingBack to School: Getting Ready for AP (Part 1): https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pptx/back-school-getting-ready-ap-part-1.pptxAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.jackierae-music.com/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

This episode we journey to Erie, Pennsylvania to meet AP coordinator superstar and Assistant Principal at McDowell High School, Sandra Means. All good things come in threes during her three-year journey of AP coordinating. Listen in to hear how Sandra's experience and expertise is helping her to transform McDowell's AP program. It's an embracing trifecta tale on this episode of Coordinated.Register for an AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.jackierae-music.com/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

We're off to the “Windy City” to meet Cindy Zamora-Failla, school counselor, Harley rider and veteran AP coordinator at Willowbrook High School. Cindy shares with us her long and winding road to the AP coordinator role and along with some expert advice for those just hopping on for the ride. Don't miss this engine-revving episode of Coordinated.Register for an AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.jackierae-music.com/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

TranscriptCorey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Jesse: Hello, and welcome to AWS Morning Brief: Fridays From the Field. I'm Jesse DeRose.Amy: I'm Amy Negrette.Tim: And I'm Tim Banks.Jesse: This is the podcast within a podcast where we talk about all the ways we've seen AWS used and abused in the wild. Today, we're going to be talking about AWS, an open-source software. Now, that's kind of a broad topic, but there have been some specific, recent events I'll say, over the last year maybe or maybe even less, related to AWS and open-source software that really got us talking, and I wanted to have a deeper conversation with both of you on this topic.Tim: Well, you should probably start by going over some of the things that you're mentioning, when you say ‘some of these things,' what are those things, Jesse?Jesse: Yeah. So, I think the best place to start is what constitutes open-source software. And specifically, I think, not just what constitutes open-source software, but how does that differ from an open-source company?Tim: So, open-source software can be anything: Linux kernel, bash, anything like that, any Python functioning module. If you make a piece of software, whatever it is, and you license it with one of the various open-source licenses, or your own open-source license or whatever, it's something that the community kind of owns. So, when they get big, they have maintainers, everything like that, but at its essence, it's a piece of software that you can freely download and use, and then you're free to modify it as you need, and then it's up to the specifics of the license to whether you're required to send those modifications back, to include them, or to whatever. But the essence is that it's a piece of software that's free for me to use and free for me to modify under it's license.Jesse: And one of the other things I want to add to that is, correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't a lot of open-source software is very community-owned, so there's a lot of focus on folks from the community that is using this software giving back not because they need to under the licensing, necessarily, but because they want to continue using this and making it better over time.Amy: I think one of the issues is that becomes a very opinionated kind of statement where there are a lot of people in the open-source community who feel that if you're going to use something and make changes to better suit what your needs are, that you should be able to submit those changes back to the community, or back to whoever owns the base of the software. But that said, it's like the community edition of MySQL before Microsoft bought it, where the assumption was that there's essentially a candidate of it that anyone can use without the expectation of submitting it back.Jesse: So, that's a broad definition of open-source software, but how does open-source software, broadly speaking, differ from an open-source company? I'm thinking specifically there is the open-source software of Elasticsearch, for example, or I should say, previously the open-source software of Elasticsearch that was owned by the open-source company, Elastic. So, what does that relationship look like? How does an open-source company like that differ from the open-source software itself?Tim: So, there are typically a couple of ways. Usually, a company that is the owner of an open-source product still has some kind of retention of the IP in their various licenses that they can do that with, but essentially—and this is in the words of one of the founders of Elastic—that they're benevolent dictators over the software. And so they allow folks to contribute, but they don't have to. And most of those open-source software companies will have a commercial version of that software that has other features that are not available, packages with support or some of the things like that, some kind of value-added thing that you're going to wind up paying for. The best way to describe—like you said—there's the company Elastic and then the product Elasticsearch.I relate back to before: there was Red Hat Linux, which was open-source, and then the company Red Hat. And I remember when they went public and everyone was shocked that a company can make profit off of something they gave away for free. But while the core of the software itself was free, the support was not free, nor was the add-on features that enterprises wanted. And so that tends to be kind of what the business model is, is that you create the software, it's open-source for a while to get a big user base, and then when it gets adopted by enterprises or people that really would pay for support or for other features, that's when the license tends to change, or there's a fork between the open-source version and then the commercial version.Jesse: And it definitely sounds like there can be benefits to an open-source company essentially charging for not just the open-source software, but these extra benefits like supports and additional features because I know I've traced multiple code bugs back to a piece of open-source software that there's a PR or an issue that has been sitting open for months, if not longer because the community just doesn't have the time to look into the issue, doesn't have the time to work on the issue, they are managing it on their own, separate as a side job, separate from their day-to-day work. Whereas if that is a bug that I'm tracing back to a feature in an open-source piece of software, or I should say software that I am paying for through an open-source company, I have a much clearer support path to a resolution to resolving that issue.Tim: And I think what the end up doing is then you see it more like a traditional core software model, like, you know, a la Oracle, or something like that where you pay for the software essentially, but it comes packaged with these things that you get because of it, and then there's a support contract on top of it, and then there's hosting or cloud, whatever it is, on top of that, now, but you would still end up paying for the software and then support as part of the same deal. But as you know, these are for-profit companies. People get paid for them; they are publicly traded; they sell this software; they sell this product, whether it's the services or the hosting, for profit. That is not open-source software. So, if company X that makes software X, goes under, they are acting like the software would then go under as if the software doesn't belong to the community.So, a business that goes after a business is always going to be fair play; I believe they call it capitalism. But when you talk about going after open-source software, you're looking at what Microsoft was doing in the '90s and early 2000s, with Linux and other open-source challenges to the Windows and the other paid commercial enterprise software market. When folks started using Linux and servers because it was free, customizable, and they could do pretty much everything they wanted to or version of it that they were using commercial Unices for, or even replacing Windows for, you didn't really see the commercial Unices going after it because that very specialized use cases; the user had specialized hardware. What folks were doing, they're buying Wintel machines and putting Linux on them, they were getting them without Windows licenses, or trial licenses, throwing Linux on it. And Microsoft really went after open-source; they really went after open-source.They were calling it insecure, they were calling it flash in the pan, saying it would never happen. They ran a good marketing campaign for a long time against open-source software so that people would not use it and would instead use their closed-source software. That is going after open-source, not going after quote-unquote, “Open-source companies.”Jesse: Yeah, I think that's ultimately what I want to dive into next, which is, there's been a lot of buzz about AWS going after open-source, being a risk to open-source software, specifically, with the release of AWS Managed Services for software like Elasticsearch, for example, Kubernetes, Prometheus vs. Other open-source packages that you can now run as a managed service in AWS. There's a lot of concern that AWS is basically a risk to all of these pieces of open-source software, but that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case, based on what we're talking about. One of the things that I want to dive into really specifically here is this licensing idea. Is it important to end-users? How would they know about what license they're using, or if the license changes?Tim: I'll let Amy dig in on it because she's probably the expert of three of them, but I will say one case in point, I remember where licensing did become very important was Java. JDK licenses, when Oracle started cornering the market on enclosing all the licenses, you had to use different types of Javas. So, you had to get, like, open JDK; you couldn't use Sun, Oracle Java, or whatever it was. And so that became a heavy lift of replacing packages and making sure all that stuff was in compliance, and while tracking packages, replacing them, doing all the necessary things because if you're running Java, you're probably running it in production. Why you would, I don't know, but there are those things that you would have to do in order to be able to just replace a package. The impact of the license, even if it doesn't cost a dime for usage, it still matters, and in real dollars and real engineering time.Amy: Even free licensing will cost you money if you do it wrong. The reason why I love talking about licensing is because I used to work for the government—Jesse: [laugh].Amy: —and if you think a large company like Amazon or Microsoft loves doing anything to rattle the cage of smaller businesses, it's not nearly as much as they love doing it to the government. So, any company that has a government-specific license, and the government is not using it, they will get sued and fined for a bunch of money, which sounds like a conflict between a super-large company and the government and who the hell cares about that, but this also translates the way they handle licensing for end-users and for smaller companies. So, for the most part for the end-user, you're going to look at what is generally sent to you to use any piece of licensing, the EULA, the End-User License Agreement, and you're just going to say, “Yeah, fine, this thing is 20 pages long; I'm not going to read this, it's fine.” And for most end-users, that is actually, you're good to go because they're not going to be coming after small, single-person users. What these licenses do is restrict the way larger organizations—be it the government or mid to larger companies—actually use their software, so that—this is a little dating—someone does not buy a single disk that does not report home, and then install that one disk on 20 computers, which is a thing that everyone has seen done if they've been in the industry long enough.Jesse: Yeah.Amy: Yeah. And it means things like licensing inventory is important, to the single you're using this license at home and you install Adobe on three computers, you would think it's not… would not hurt their value very much, but they also make it so that you can't even do that anymore. So, in purchased software, it makes a big deal for end-users; if it's just something free like being able to use some community SQL workbench just to mess around with stuff at home or on personal projects, you're usually going to be okay.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at ChaosSearch. You could run Elasticsearch or Elastic Cloud—or OpenSearch as they're calling it now—or a self-hosted ELK stack. But why? ChaosSearch gives you the same API you've come to know and tolerate, along with unlimited data retention and no data movement. Just throw your data into S3 and proceed from there as you would expect. This is great for IT operations folks, for app performance monitoring, cybersecurity. If you're using Elasticsearch, consider not running Elasticsearch. They're also available now in the AWS marketplace if you'd prefer not to go direct and have half of whatever you pay them count towards your EDB commitment. Discover what companies like HubSpot, Klarna, Equifax, Armor Security, and Blackboard already have. To learn more, visit chaossearch.io and tell them I sent you just so you can see them facepalm, yet again.Jesse: Yeah, this is a really big issue. There's so much complexity in this space because Tim, like you said, there's some amount of capitalism here of AWS competing with open-source companies; there's business opportunities to change licensing, which can be a good thing for a company or it could be a terrible thing for a company's user base. There's lots of complexity to this issue. And I mean, in the amount of time that we've been talking, we've only really scratched the surface. I think there's so much more to this space to talk about.Tim: There really is, and there's a lot of history that we really need to cover to really paint an accurate picture. I think back when web hosting first became a thing, and everyone was running LAMP stacks and nobody was saying, “Oh, no, using cPanel is going to kill Apache.” That wasn't a thing because, yeah, it was a for-profit company that was using open-source software to make money and yet Apache still lived, and [unintelligible 00:15:00] still lived; MySQL still made it; PHP was still around. So, to say that utilizing open-source software to provide a service, to provide a paid service, is going to kill the open-source softwares, at best it's misrepresentation and omits a lot of things. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff we can dig into, a lot of things we can cover.And the topic is broad, and so this is why it's important for us to talk about it, I think, in the context of AWS and the AWS, kind of, ecosystem is that when you see companies with big crocodile tears, saying, “Oh, yeah, AWS is trying to kill open-source,” it's like, “No, they're not trying to kill open-source.” They may be trying to go after your company, but they aren't the same.Jesse: And it feels to me like that is part of the way that the business world works. And I'm not saying that it's a great part of the way the business world works, but how can you differentiate your company in such a way that you still retain your user base if AWS releases a competing product? I'm not thrilled with the fact that AWS is releasing all these products that are competing with open-source companies, but I'm also not going to say that it's not beneficial, in some ways, for AWS customers. So, I see both sides of the coin here and I don't have a clear idea of what the best path forward is.Amy: As much as I hate the market demands it type of argument, a lot of the libraries, and open-source software, and all of these other things that AWS has successfully gone after, they've gone after ones that weren't entirely easy to use in the first place. Things like Kubernetes, and Prometheus, and MongoDB, and Elastic. These are not simple solutions to begin with, so if they didn't do it, there are a lot of other management companies that will help you deal with these very specific products. The only difference is, one of them is AWS.Jesse: [laugh]. One of them is a multibillion-dollar company.Amy: Oh, they've all got money, man.Jesse: [laugh].Amy: I mean, let's be real. At our pay grade, the difference between a multimillion-dollar and a billion-dollar company, I don't think affects you at your level at all.Jesse: No.Amy: I'm not seeing any of that difference. I am not. [laugh].Tim: Yeah, I definitely think if you all want us to dig into more of this—and we could do a lot more—let us know. If there are things you think we're wrong on, or things that you think we need to dig deeper on, yeah, we'd love to do that. Because this is a complex and nuanced topic that does have a lot of information that should be discussed so that folks can have a clear view of what the picture looks like.Jesse: Well, that'll do it for us this week, folks. If you've got questions you'd like us to answer please go to lastweekinaws.com/QA, fill out the form and we'll answer those questions on a future episode of the show.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please go to lastweekinaws.com/review and give it a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please go to lastweekinaws.com/review, give it a five-star rating on your podcast platform of choice and tell us your thoughts on this conversation, on AWS versus open-source software versus open-source companies.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

It's that time of year! The annual release of AP Score Reports is here. Derek and Rachel are joined by special guest, Alice Safford, Senior Director of AP Score Reporting. Deep dive into new improvements to the very popular Instructional Planning Reports. Plus, a review of score report access, the Subject Score Roster, Student Score Reports, the Student Datafile and much more! Data geeks rejoice on this episode of Coordinated!AP Score Reports: https://scores.collegeboard.org/AP Data File: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/exam-administration-ordering-scores/scores/available-reports/student-datafileMore score report information: https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/exam-administration-ordering-scores/scoresRegister for an AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.jackierae-music.com/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

This episode has something for everyone! Our coordinator journey takes us to Sandy, Utah. It's there we meet up with a multi-talented, College Counselor, soccer coach, Division 1 athlete, theatrical expert and, of course, first year AP coordinator! Kimi Miyashima at Waterford School shines her brightest when the camera is on! It's Lights-Camera-Action on this episode of Coordinated.Register for an AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.jackierae-music.com/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  IG: amyjyoh

The AP coordinator role can be challenging… And to be a first-year AP coordinator in 2020-21? Wow! No easy feat! Assistant Principal, EdD student, and rookie AP coordinator, Dennis Soares, from Middletown High School in Rhode Island, shares his first-year coordinator tale. Fumbles, recoveries, and touchdowns included! Experience not required to kick back and enjoy an incredible journey on this episode of Coordinated.Register for an AP Coordinator Workshop:  https://collegeboard.org/apcoordinatortrainingAP Coordinator Community:  https://apcommunity.collegeboard.org/web/apcoordinatorsMusic by Jackie Rae:  https://www.jackierae-music.com/Logo design by Amy Oh:  amyjyo.com  /  Instagram: amyjyoh

TranscriptCorey: This episode is sponsored in part byLaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I’m going to just guess that it’s awful because it’s always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn’t require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren’t what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visitlaunchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Jesse: Today, on a very special episode of AWS Morning Brief: Fridays From the Field, we say our goodbyes to Pete Cheslock.Amy: Oh, no. Did the ops bus finally get him?Jesse: No. Wait, what? What? No. No, he’s not—Amy: You know, the ops bus, the one that takes out all of the ops people, which is why you need data recovery plans.Jesse: [laugh]. I mean, I have plans for other reasons, but no. No, Pete, Pete’s not dead. He’s just—I mean, he’s dead to me, but he’s just not going to be here anymore.Amy: Only on the inside.Jesse: Welcome to AWS Morning Brief: Fridays From the Field. I’m Jesse DeRose.Amy: I’m Amy Arumbulo Negrette.Pete: I am Pete Cheslock. I’m here for one last, beautiful, glorious time.Jesse: I feel like this is going to be like Breakfast Club but in the data center server room.Pete: Yeah. A little bit. I think so. We will all sit cross-legged on the floor in a circle, share our thoughts and feelings. And maybe some sushi. There were sushi in that movie. And that was, like, really advanced back then in the ’80s.Jesse: Yeah, I like that. So Pete, you want to give us a little bit of background about why you will be moving on from this podcast?Pete: Moving on to a whole new world. Yes. Sadly, I am not dead. The ops bus did not get me, and I was not eaten by my smoker, my meat smoker.Jesse: [laugh]. Although at this point, it’s probably overdue.Pete: You know, the odds of all three of those are pretty high out, to be really perfectly honest, given this pandemic and everything else going on in this world.Amy: Isn’t that how it works? You eventually become the smoked meat.Pete: Yeah, yeah.Jesse: [laugh].Pete: All the time. You know, you are what you eat. And if you eat junk and whatnot—so I eat smoked meats, eventually, I’m just going to become, you know, smoked meats, I guess. But no, I am moving on from The Duckbill Group. Just bittersweet is the best word I can come up with. Very sad, but also very excited.I’m moving on to a new role at a new company that was just kind of an opportunity that I couldn’t pass up. And I’m really excited for something new, but really sad because I don’t get to work with two of my three favorite cloud economists, Jesse, and Amy. Yeah, Corey is one, too, and yes, it’s fun to work with him. But it’s also fun to rag on him a little bit as well.Jesse: I’m pretty sure you still have the opportunity to rag on him no matter where you go.Pete: Yeah, that’s true. I mean, we’re Twitter connected. So, I can just slide into his DMs as needed. Yeah.Amy: And really, what else is Twitter for—Pete: Exactly.Jesse: [laugh].Amy: —than roasting former coworkers and bosses?Pete: Yeah, I expect a constant stream of Twitter DMs every time you find something, some little fun nugget that I’ve left behind.Jesse: I feel like that’s appropriate. So today, Pete, I have two questions for you now that you will be moving on from Duckbill Group, moving on from this podcast, I want to know, looking back at your time here working with Duckbill Group, what did you learn? What are the things that surprised you, that you didn’t expect? And what would you say to somebody who wanted to start working in this space, maybe start a career in cloud economics on their own?Pete: Yeah, so this kind of feels like an exit interview a little bit.Jesse: [laugh]. And a very public exit interview at that. So, make sure that we bleep all the swear words.Pete: I think it’s in Duckbill fashion to do a public—a very public-facing exit interview, right? That is Duckbill in a nutshell.Jesse: I think the only thing more public is if Corey asks you to hold the exit interview on Twitter.Amy: Exactly.Pete: [laugh]. I mean, we might have to do that, now. I like that idea. Yeah, so I think those are great questions, and I love the opportunity to talk about it. Because Duckbill is a fantastic company, and coming into Duckbill last year was totally by luck.Not really—no, not—luck is maybe not the right word. But I had been doing some consulting on my own, and the pandemic and some other forces caused a bunch of my consulting work to dry up really quickly. And I was sitting at home and I’m like, “Wow, I should get a real job.” And I saw a tweet from Mike on Twitter that was like, “Oh, we’re growing The Duckbill Group.” And Mike and Corey and I have known each other for such a long time.We’ve always said it’d be great to work together at some point in the future, but it’s so hard [laugh] to do. You know, to kind of work with your friends, and timing, and circumstance, and schedule, and everything else. And so when I saw that, I was like, wow, like that might be a lot of fun working with that crew. And I’ve got a lot of experience in AWS and I’ve—my title at one of my previous companies was Captain COGS—for Cost Of Goods Sold—because I was so diligent with the Amazon bill. So, it’s kind of one of those things where I felt like I could be useful and helpful to the organization, and talking with Mike and Corey, it just made a ton of sense.And so, it was a lot of fun to come on board. So, but then once you’re kind of in, and you start doing this type of work—and you know, Amy and Jesse, you’ve both experienced this—I think no matter how much knowledge you have of Amazon, very, very quickly, you realize that you actually don’t know as much as you really think you did, right?Jesse: Yeah.Pete: Because it’s so—there’s just so much.Amy: And it changes once every five minutes.Pete: [laugh].Jesse: Oh, yeah.Amy: Literally if you—well, just keep an eye on that changelog, you can watch your day get ruined as time goes on.Jesse: [laugh].Pete: [laugh]. It’s—yeah, it’s a real-time day ruining. And that’s the new. It’s like Amazon Kinesis: It’s all real-time.Jesse: [laugh].Pete: Yeah, it’s so true. And I think the reason behind it is, you know, one of the first things I kind of realized is that when you are working inside of a business and you’re trying to understand, like, an Amazon service, you don’t necessarily go that deep because you’ve got a real job and other stuff to do. And when you’re finally, like—let’s say you’re in Cost Explorer; this is actually my favorite one because learning this took us a while. The documents aren’t very good. But in Cost Explorer, there’s a dropdown box that can show you your charges in different ways: unblended view, blended view, amortized view—if I’m saying that word really incorrectly—net-amortized view, net-unblended view. Like, what do all these mean?Most people just are like, unblended, move on with their lives. But at some point, you kind of need to know and answer that question, and then understand the impact, and all those things, and spending more hours than I care to count trying to correlate the bill and Cost Explorer to look the same. Something that simple, why is that so hard? You know, it’s things like that.Amy: Why is that so hard? I do not understand it. It is exhausting. [laugh].Jesse: It drives me absolutely crazy, and it’s something that in previous roles, you could just say, “Well, this isn’t my responsibility, so I’m not going to worry about it.” But now we’ve got clients who are asking us these questions because it is our responsibility and we do need to worry about it.Pete: Yeah, exactly. So, I think that’s just, kind of, one example. Now, there was a ton that I learned. I mean, just in how discounts might be applied when you look at charges in an account whether if you have an enterprise discount program, or private pricing in some way. I think one of my favorite ones—and this is actually something that catches a lot of people up—is especially in Cost Explorer, there’s kind of two ways that you can view a charge.So, let’s say you’re looking at S3, and you are trying to find your usage by the usage type. Like, I want to compare standard storage to maybe data transfer or something like that. And you go and group by usage type, and they’ll show you, “Hey, for your S3 for this month or day or whatever, you’ll have some spend associated storage and data transfer,” and you’re like, “That’s neat.” And then you say to yourself, “Now, I want to look at it by API.” And maybe you’ll see, wow, there’s a ton of spend associated with GETs or PUTs.And you’ll think that that is actually a request charge. And it’s totally not. It’s like, when you group by API, it’s the API that started the charge, not the charge itself. So, you could have a PUT that started the charge, but the charge itself is actually storage. It’s the little things like that, where you might glance at it in your account and go, “Oh, okay.” But then when you actually need to get down to the per penny on spend and share it with a client, you go even further down the rabbit hole.Jesse: Because why would all of the billing information across different sources be accurate?Amy: And also, why would things be named the same between the bill, and Cost Explorer, and the curve? Having those names be the same, that would just make it too easy, and just streamline the process too much, and be too logical. No, let’s work for it. We have to work for it. It’s a pillar of excellence; we have to work for it.Pete: [laugh]. Exactly. So yeah, I think it’s those types of things that you just start seeing the edge cases. But because of, kind of, the work we do, we keep going. We’re not just, “Oh, wow. Haha, silly Amazon.”But then we keep diving in deeper and deeper to figure out the why. And the reason for that really just comes down to the fact that we’ll need to communicate that in some effective way to the client to get them to understand it. And actually, that kind of leads me to the other thing that I think is probably the most important skill of being a cloud economist, of being in finops, is your ability to write long-form writing, being able to write clear, concise information explaining why the spend is what it is, explaining all of these edge cases, all these interesting parts of cloud cost management, and being able to write that down in such a way that anyone could read it; like a CFO could understand how the charges are happening, just like a head of engineering, who has maybe more impact to the spend.Jesse: Being able to communicate, the differences between different AWS services, between different billing modes, to different audiences is so critical to the work that we do because we’re ultimately going to be working with different people with different backgrounds at every single client that we work with. So, we need to be able to speak the language of different audiences.Amy: And it’s really different, how different C Suites, different departments, their goals are going to be different, too, because they have requirements that they have to fulfill. Finance is very concerned about the literal cost of things, while engineering is—they understand that their architecture comes at a price, and so long as they have the budget for it, they’re cool with it. And you just have to align what those goals are, and have that translate as like, into the document as, “They built it this way for this reason, which was fine at that stage. But as you grow, you need to make sure that it also fulfills these other external expectations.”Corey: Let’s be honest—the past year has been a nightmare for cloud financial management. The pandemic forced us to move workloads to the cloud sooner than anticipated, and we all know what that means—surprises on the cloud bill and headaches for anyone trying to figure out what caused them. The CloudLIVE 2021 virtual conference is your chance to connect with FinOps and cloud financial management practitioners and get a behind-the-scenes look into proven strategies that have helped organizations like yours adapt to the realities of the past year. Hosted by CloudHealth by VMware on May 20th, the CloudLIVE 2021 conference will be 100% virtual and 100% free to attend, so you have no excuses for missing out on this opportunity to connect with the cloud management community. Visit cloudlive.com/corey to learn more and save your virtual seat today. That’s cloud-l-i-v-e.com/corey to register.Pete: Yeah, that’s exactly right. I mean, it’s just—and can you imagine, you have some knowledge you want to share around something as complex as the Amazon bill. I mean we ask for a PDF of your bill when you start working with Duckbill Group. That could be hundreds of pages long, and you’re trying to distill that down into something that, really, anyone can understand. It’s a true superpower to be able to write long-form content like that really well.And I never used to like writing. I was never—never really enjoyed it that much and over the last year, that muscle that you’re working out, now, the ability to write many, many pages around this type of content, just it comes so much more easily. So, I think that’s another big aspect, right? The more you work on it, obviously the easier it gets.Jesse: I don’t know about you, but now that I have focused more on flexing that writing and communication muscle, I’ve noticed it more in both everyone that I work with day-to-day with Duckbill Group and also in my daily life, just watching how people communicate with each other, and how effectively people communicate with each other; it’s both amazing and nerve-wracking all at the same time.Pete: [laugh]. I know. And even—not to say that whenever we sit down to write our reports that we give to our clients, we don’t go through the wave of emotions between the back and forth of, like, “I don’t know what to write,” and then, “Oh, I know of a lot of stuff to write. Let me just get something down.” And then you can’t stop writing. It’s just—it’s this emotional roller coaster that I feel like no matter how many times we need to write a lot of detailed information down, everyone always goes through.Amy: And we really do have a highly collaborative process here, too, where we’re all in the same document, writing, and the person who owns any given report will always have the same stage at the end when all of the sections are filled out, where they go to one of the other people on the team and go, “Every word I put down is absolute garbage. Please help me trim it down, take it out. I don’t even care anymore. Just look at it and tell me that I wrote down words that are in some kind of human language.” [laugh].Jesse: [laugh].Pete: [laugh]. Oh, the plight of the writer. It’s, like, the imposter syndrome that affects the writer. It’s like, “Okay. I wrote a bunch of stuff. I think it’s terrible.” And then you sleep on it, you come back the next day, and you’re like, “Actually, this is pretty good.” [laugh].Amy: I explained concepts. It was fine. I didn’t use a single comma for three pages, but it’s probably fine. [laugh].Jesse: [laugh].Pete: You can take one of mine. Usually, all of my draft documents are commas and M-dashes, just all over the place. Yeah, so I think that’s honestly a big superpower. And I think the last two things that—this is actually something that I’ve looked for in people that I’ve wanted to work with, and people I was hiring, and I see it here as well as these, kind of, two concepts of intellectual curiosity and aptitude to learn, where if you have a base knowledge around Amazon and you have those other attributes—that curiosity and truly enjoying learning—you can accelerate your ability to understand this so incredibly quickly because there’s such a wealth of information out there, and there’s so many documents, there’s so much stuff. It just requires someone who really cares enough to dive in and really want to understand.That’s something that I think we’ve seen here is that the folks who are most successful are just—they want to know why, and they’re not satisfied until they can explain it in a simple way to someone else. That’s the key, right? The attribute of a true expert is someone who can explain something very difficult in a simple way. And I think that’s something that would be critical if you were joining Duckbill, if you were building your own finops or cloud finance team, it is so complex. It’s the intersection of technical architecture and cost, and it touches almost the entire business. So, I think those are some other attributes that I think are just incredibly helpful.Jesse: We’re also usually not entirely satisfied until we’ve either opened a support case with AWS, responded to one of their feedback icons in the AWS documentation—the public AWS documentation—or trolled somebody on Twitter saying, “Shame on you, AWS, for writing documentation that doesn’t make sense.”Amy: It’ll be fine. Someone in your mentions will go, “Did you check the region?” And you would have, and then it’ll still be wrong.Jesse: [laugh].Amy: And it’ll be fine. [laugh]. Eventually, we’ll fix it.Pete: That one—Jesse: Too soon.Pete: —that one still hurts, when we—oh, I’m just like, “Why do the numbers not line up?” And then someone was like—Amy: It's a thing I check for, even if it’s like, “It’s a global resource.” I don’t care. Just tell me. Just tell me it’s fine. [laugh].Pete: “Are you in the right region?” Like—“Dammit, no, I’m not. Oh.” [laugh]. Yeah, that happens to the best of us.Amy: I did, unfortunately, burn so many hours, I think it was last week trying to find out where someone had put their resources. It’s like, “Oh, not us-west-2. It’s us-west-1. Of course.” [laugh].Jesse: So, annoying. Well, I would just like to say, Pete, it has been a joy and a pleasure working with you, it has been a joy and a pleasure complaining about AWS with you, on this podcast, so thank you for your time. That sounded really… really, really standoffish. I didn’t mean it quite as bad as it came off there. [laugh].Pete: Well, you know, I think we need to thank Corey for having a child and thus needing to offload some of his podcast duties over to us, and then the fact that we just never gave him the podcast back, and we just took it over.Jesse: Well, if you’ve got questions that you’d like us to answer, you can go to lastweekinaws.com/QA. And if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please go to lastweekinaws.com/review and give it a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you hated this podcast, please go to lastweekinaws.com/review, give it a five-star rating on your podcast platform of choice and tell us what qualities you’re looking for when building out your cloud finance team.Pete: Thanks for coming in.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Amy Honey is a pull, no punches, powerhouse, speaker and trainer in the areas of customer engagement, body language, behavior modification, sales and habit transformation. She has extensive background in high ticket sales and is known by her peers as a powerful closer, Amy is also passionate about helping girls and women find their courage just as she had to do starting at the age of 16, when she found herself alone and independent through her own resourcefulness, she still managed to graduate from high school. Her passion for personal growth, travel and transforming lives has taken Amy all over the world, helping people transform their lives through behavior, observation and habit change.   Learn more about Amy. Learn more about The Passionistas Project. Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And today we're talking with Amy Honey, a pull, no punches, powerhouse, speaker and trainer in the areas of customer engagement, body language, behavior modification, sales, and habit transformation. She has extensive background in high ticket sales and is known by her peers. As a powerful closer, Amy is also passionate about helping girls and women find their courage just as she had to do starting at the age of 16, when she found herself alone and independent through her own resourcefulness, she still managed to graduate from high school. At age 20. She became a single mom and chose to put her family's welfare first while overcoming numerous obstacles in an unreceptive marketplace. It was during these life challenges and her entrepreneurial journey that she crossed paths with personal development and discovered her love for speaking and training her passion for personal growth travel and transforming lives has taken Amy all over the world, helping people transform their lives through behavior, observation, and habit change. So please welcome to the show Amy Honey. Amy: I'm so happy to be here. Passionistas: Oh, we're so happy to have you. What are you most passionate about? Amy: Personal growth. My path through that is sales. Do you ever watch any of chef Ramsey, Gordon Ramsey stuff? He does this show called Kitchen Nightmares and he goes in and what that shows really about is about personal growth, but his, his avenues through cooking, you know, so that's his version of it. So I think everybody has their version of personal growth. Passionistas: Talk about your journey through life, where you started out your experiences, that we talked about a bit in the intro at the age of 16, becoming independent, and why personal growth has become such an important concept to you through your journey? Amy: I probably started in sales at two years old. I was just like, I was just in, I was just, I loved the idea of being able to create something and then, and then make money for my time or my creation. And so even as a little kid, I made like pet rocks and sold them to my family, or like we would travel through Germany were my dad was a military. So we traveled and I was, I was adopted. So it's my, I'm a single, an only child. Oh, come into play later. So we were traveling through Germany and we had this like VW bus and it had this rack in between. So my parents was very difficult for my parents to get to the back of the, of the VW bus, you know, camper and the frigerators right there. So they would ask me for food and I would just charge them. So it was like, it'd be like a nickel, like, okay. Yeah. And I would like walk up with my little, you know, you know, I'm like eight years old and I'd walk up with my little paper and say, you know, okay, I'll take your order, you know? Okay. That'll be five cents, you know, whatever, but they paid it because they didn't want to get it into the back of the bus. Little did I realize supply and demand, but I learned it very early on, I guess. And and so then from there, uh, later on, I actually started out. So, so it was a dance instructor. So I'm really into dance. I'm really into moving energy. So I became a dance instructor at age 13. So very young, my dad, since the time I was three taught jazz, tap, ballet, gymnastics. I taught everything. I started assistant teaching at 13. And then by the age of 16, I was teaching my own classes. And then at the same time I was working two jobs, so, and going to high school. So I was working on the phones for Kirby vacuum cleaner. So I sold Kirby vacuum cleaners on the phone from the age of 14. And then at the age of 16, I was allowed to go door to door. So I wasn't allowed to do door to door sales until I turned 16. So this is back in the eighties, dating myself here. So at that point, I just was good at talking to people because for me, it was about connecting. And then at age 16, I'm out on my own. And I moved out on my mom and dad's house. I just they're great people. We just had large differences in opinions. It's very interesting DNA to me is very interesting because my parents are really good people, but I got the opportunity to meet my birth family about five years ago. And now I'm really, really close with my brothers. I've got four brothers that never knew I existed. And so what I found so interesting is that I'm so much like them in the way that I think about the world and my sense of humor and all that stuff it's naturally in your DNA. Right. And so there was just a difference of opinion. And so when I moved out at 16, I always felt like it, like I did something wrong. This is my fault. I'm a bad kid. I'm horrible person. But in the meantime, I am putting myself through high school. Like I still worked. I still graduated high school on time. So, you know, it was, I was just had a really, I always had a really strong work ethic anyway, but I also had an ethic of like, okay, I just, whatever it takes to get it done, like whatever it takes to get it done at the same time, I started really seeking at that point. Because I really thought something was wrong with me. Like I was, something was wrong with me. So I started seeking and I sought out counseling and I sought out, you know, which was also kind of like wrong. Like if you went to counseling, like by my parents' standard, you know, you were wrong or you needed to be fixed or something goes wrong with you. But I don't think that we put enough emphasis on the importance of mental health. So I just started seeking and I, I started finding books and I remember one of the very first books I read way back, when is a book called peeling, the sweet onion. And it was always all about the layers of who we are and how we're going to forget it kind of over and over and over again, and how to really become more of, of the center of who we are, like getting the layers of the, kind of the crap off, you know? And so that was one of the very first and it's, it's an old book and it's not really popular these days, but it's still super relevant, like really super relevant. So, and then I just, you know, went on to Tony Robbins and you know, all of these other people. And then I started working in the seminar industry, doing sales, like doing sales, but doing coaching because for me, sales is not just like getting the number, like it's funny. Cause like I get on, like I talk to my family all the time. I was just talking to them last night and you know, all sale. I had a good day or I had a bad day, you know? Uh, and, and my daughter was asking me, well, what, what makes it good is like, if you just get a sale and I said, no, no, it's the conversation. If I can get on the phone and help somebody and have a great conversation and they don't buy anything from me, I had a great day because I impacted somebody's life in a way. So to me, sales is about service and connecting the right people with the right products and figuring out the right flow of energy with the sale. So maybe that right flow of energy might be a no, but when you come to the highest point of service with that person, and you're not just looking at them as a transaction or a number, when they are ready, they will come back to you and maybe they never will be ready and that's okay too. But if you push them into a sale, you're going to it's, it's just, it's horrible, bad karma on you. I think bad energy on you. You're, that's where you're going to get higher cancellations. You're going to get people complaining about your company. You're going to get all these things, right. So to me, it's just not worth it to push a person into a sale. Passionistas: And then when did you start public speaking? Amy: I've been a teacher since a young age. So I was in front of groups of people with no problem and teaching dance. And I teach zoom by owned. I owned a gym. So, you know, just I've always been in front of people, not a problem. I was also a stuntwoman. And so I'm don't have any problems being in front of cameras. That's my husband and I are both stunned, Exxon actors. So I just never had a problem being in front of people. But when I started working in the seminar industry, I was forced to get in, you know, we would have to intro the speaker. So it was like all of a sudden I had to introduce a Les Brown or somebody and I'm just, Whoa. Okay. Okay. So it was just kind of run into it. And then I just started speaking. And for me, I just think when you can speak to a group of people, it's a lot easier than trying to one-on-one because there's always things like a, every single, every single business. I believe that we have to educate our clients because an educated client is a good client and when they understand it and they're educated enough. And so I feel that there's things that every single business repeats over and over and over again. So if we can take those things that we repeat over and over again, and I end make a video or, or get them as together as a group and say it, you're not exhausting yourself saying it over and over and over again to each client. Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about being a stunt woman. What attracted you to that world? Amy: I was always into fitness. I wanted to do martial arts from non-time. I was a real little kid, but I was, I had to do, you know, I had to dance. So dancing was the thing or piano, piano, piano for a while. It was not ladylike to do martial arts. So it wasn't allowed to do martial arts. So as soon as I turned eight, well, as soon as I turned 16, I moved out. But by the time I was 18, I had my feet underneath me and I'd graduated high school and stuff. And so at that point I was like, Oh, I can take martial arts. No, one's stopping me. I can pierce anything. I want, I can get tattoos. So yeah. So I did, I went and started taking martial arts. And at that same time I was body doubling as an actress. So I was living in Oregon at the time and I was on this movie set and I met a stunt coordinator on the movie set, Steve, his name was Steve, really super nice guy. And I was like, huh, that's interesting. And so I was, I was an extra on the set. So as I was body doubling and I met this I met the stunt coordinator and he said to me, and I started just digging and asking questions. And he said, look, if you're really interested, why don't you fly out to LA and meet with our stunt guys and see what you think? And I said, Oh, okay. And so I booked a flight to LA and it was so funny. Cause I'm like, I'm 51 years old. Now I think I was 22 or 23. At that time I weigh a lot more now than I did then. So I was probably like 105 pounds, like soaking wet, five foot tall, I'm little. And so I get on this plane, I get on the plane. This is 1994. It's like, get on the plane and no one's on the plane. And I'm like, this is really bizarre. Right? Well, come to find out, that was the 1994 earthquake in Northridge that had just happened that morning. So everybody canceled their flight, right? So like I'm on the flight by myself and I'm heading to LA and they've got this guy, his name was big. Wayne picking me up at the airport. This is a guy I've never met before. Right now, big Wayne is like a massive dude. He kind of looks like the rock and is probably about as big. And I walk up and he's holding the sign and I'm like, this is how every horror movie war starts like, Oh my God, what? I'm like, I'm just like, I'm walking into this thing. I don't know this guy. I'm getting in the car with a stranger. I'm in a strange town. I was just like, what was I thinking? Like I'm freaking out at this point, like inside my heart is like, but I'm like, no, no, I trust my gut. I trust my gut. So he took me out to eat with a couple of the other stunt actors. And it was very interesting because they wanted to know my philosophy on life. Like they wanted to know if I believed in fate, they wanted to know if I believed in circumstance. They wanted to know if I believed if I created my own reality at that point, like I was really young, but they wanted to know these things because they weren't going to trust me with teaching me some of these things. If I didn't believe that things happen for a reason that you're in the right place at the right time that you trust yourself. Because it's very important when you're doing choreography with another stunt actor, you have to trust that when they're supposed to Zig, they're going to Zig. And when they're supposed to zag, they're going to zag. Otherwise you're going to collide and people get hurt. So that's how I learned. And so the kinds of stunts that I do were our high falls and lighting myself on fire and fight scenes. Passionistas: What projects did you do? Amy: Oh gosh. Like I did a lot of a lot of TV and I did quite a few like Showtime, HBO movies. And I couldn't even tell you some of the titles because they have what's called a working title. And then, and then, and then it goes to print crime strike was one of them like any like cops reenactments. I played in a battered woman a lot because I get beat up really well. So I can really, I can really sell, I can really sell a punch. There's a really cool chase credit card commercial. And it's actually a friend of mine. Her name is Melissa Barker and she's gets hit by a car and she comes off and she's like, yeah, you know, like you can't, I can't predict everything what's going on, but I can predict what's in my wallet kind of thing. And um, so she's actually a really big stunt woman. And she, she was one of the girls I trained with early on and with her and her husband, Eric, Betsy's another big stunt guy. So yeah, she's still going strong. I'm 51. I don't bounce. Like I used to. And um, and I got out at a point when, you know, I realized that most stunt people have broken their back at some point. So I was like, yeah, I think I'm going to cash it in quit while you're ahead. Passionistas: Your husband was also a stunt person. Did you meet him in that industry? Amy: The funny thing is we did not. We actually met, do you know who, uh, Joey Dispenza, Dr. Joe Dispenza. He's written a book called breaking the habit of being yourself. He's a, he's a speaker. And again, it's personal growth. So we met doing personal growth. That was really funny. Cause we were at this thing where he was talking and I think we were like the youngest people in the crowd. So like, we were both like 36 at the time. And so we were like the youngest people there and everybody else was like, well, over 60. And so we were just like, Hi, a young person. And so, and it was like, he was like, Oh yeah, I'm a star. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna stop a woman. So that was interesting. But he did, he is from Australia and he did stunts for a live action shows. He did some movies, but he mostly did live action. So he did, he was a Warner brothers movie world. He opened up the universal Japan. He went to Indonesia. So he was a stent, a livestock action performer for years where he did shows daily after it, that you eventually opened your first business together. Passionistas: So what was the first business you started together? Amy: It was the gym that we started together before that we were kind of doing our own things, but then I'm an entrepreneur and a big risk taker. And it's funny, he's a stunt man, but he's not risky. So I'm more of a rule breaker and a risk taker. And he's more by the book by the rules. So jumping off a building is not risky to him. As much as like purchasing a brand new business is scary, scary to him. So, uh, so he always worked for the people kind of thing, but now he's learned to be an entrepreneur. So the gym was the first business that we opened together. Passionistas: Tell us about running your own gym, what was that like? Did you like doing that? Amy: Oh, I'm so glad we're not doing that. I loved helping the people. It was great, but God, it w like what a babysitting project that was because our gym was a little different. We were like our more high-end studio. So you didn't just come to the gym and work out when you wanted everything was classes. So I taught Zumba, I taught spin. I taught, I created my own classes like riding row, which was like a, like a spin and row class combined. And then I had employees and stuff, but Oh man, what a headache? What a headache and a brick and mortar. And I'm so happy that we do not have that during, like when the pandemic started, all I kept saying was like, I'm so glad we don't have the gym. I'm so glad we don't have the gym. We never would have survived it. Passionistas: Now while you had the gym, you developed the Five Elements of Health. So tell us about that and why each one is important? Amy: What Jamie says is you've got five elements of health, exercise, sleep, hydration, nutrition, and emotional environment. And when you get all five, you've got a grip on your health. That's what he says. You got a grip on it. Um, so they're all important, but the most Important one of course is emotional, uh, environment. And what emotional environment contains is the energy around you. Emotion, emotion is energy in motion, and it's the people around you. And it's your, it's your health space. And it's your, it's everything that has to do with your mindset. And the emotional environment is the most important one because you, it's almost like if you think of a triangle and you think of like, the emotional body is like at the top of the triangle and the physical bodies at the bottom. If you change the physical body, but you don't change the mind up here, you're just going to come back to that physical body that you were at before. So you could lose all the way you could do it. This is why people lose weight. And then they come right back to here. This is why people win the lottery and then spend all the money and don't have the money because they got the physical level, but they didn't do the mind level up here. So what I realized in that is that the mindset was the most important piece. So, so for me to really help people would be to focus on the mindset. So that's what we kind of shifted to, is focusing on the mindset. I worked with people that needed to lose hundreds of pounds. That is, it can be a slow moving boat. You got to kind of give them a wide berth and let them be able to, you know, come around to this new lifestyle. And it takes patience and it takes, but it's really takes shifting that mindset. And so this has changed. Nothing's going to change in the body and if it does change, it's just going to go right back to where it was at. If the mindset doesn't get changed along with it. And so, Passionistas: So is that what inspired you to create Improv for Impact? Amy: Improv for impact is more my husband's business, but it's a tool that I use in sales, Tai Chi. So improper impact. He's, he's always done improv, but when people think of improv, they think of comedy or they think of like, whose line it in any way, or they think of like comedians. Oh, that's funny. What I realized when I was recognizing it and watching what he was doing was I was like, Oh my gosh, what a brilliant way to, and a fun way to figure out what people's habits are that are holding them back from success. Because as he's playing the games, I'm watching the patterns. And what happens is when you play a game, there's always rules on the game, right? So anytime you add rules, it adds stress. But even though it's fun, stress, anytime we're in a moment of stress, like it, like if you think of like, like fun games where you're like, ah, and you're like, you're like kind of get a little stress. We always revert back to our habit in times of stress. So then I could identify, I easily identify what the habits were. So there's certain games where we can watch it or say, Oh, that's interesting that person doesn't like to take responsibility for things, or, Oh, that's interesting. This person always wants to push their idea, but they're not willing to listen to other's ideas or, Oh, that's interesting. This person always says no before they hear it out because in their head and this is, this really can help teams. It can help innovation with business. Because what we see, a lot of people do is like, say I'm an employee. And I come to the boss with an idea and the boss goes, well, we can't, no, that's not. We can't do that because in the boss's head, he's thinking, what's going to cost this. It's going to cost this. What are we going to do? Right. But if the boss had just said, yes, okay, well, let's figure out how that can happen. Maybe another idea is going to come out that maybe it's not that idea, but if he was open to it, instead of just immediately blocking that idea, he would be able to innovate and be able to come up with something completely new. I love Apple. What Apple did. Steve jobs came back. When he came back after he had been gone from his company for a while, they spent, I think, a few days on this. And they said, well, what business are we in? And they said, well, we're in the computer business. And he said, no, no, no, no. What business are we really in? We're what are we really in? What are we really doing here? And they took days to figure this out. And they spent time just minds, you know, brainstorming what they ended up coming up with was no, we connect people to their passions. And that's how they came up with the iPod. That was when they first came up with the iPod because, Oh, well, their passions are what their passions are, music, their passions or photos, their passions, or family emails, their passions are, you know, these kinds of things. So that's was, became their motto. And it was like, it was a different, innovative way of thinking about things. So if we can stop blocking that, then we can, then we can, then we can identify who in the companies doing these things. Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Amy Honey. To learn more about Amy, visit her website amyjohoney.com. Now more of her interview with Amy. How can people transform their habits to, to connect better with their clients and communicate their values better? Amy: We teach about the energy of sales. So we teach about looking at the energy and then we also teach really active listening, truly active listening to somebody, and we teach them how to stop blocking them. So for instance, if I come to you and I say, Hey, Nancy, I got this great health product. Are you open to taking a look at it? And you're just like, no, I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. What, what interests you the most? Right. So like trying to connect on a different level, right? When somebody tells you no or blocks it, you have to accept it. So what I see a lot of salespeople do is they keep pushing. Yeah. But this is really good for you, but this is really… no, Nancy, this could really benefit you. Like really? You need to look at this, right? No, she already said no. Right, stop it. And just stop. Like sometimes it's better just not to sell. Passionistas: You really are passionate about helping girls and women find their courage. So how do you do that? Amy: And especially single moms because I was a single mom. So especially single moms. I met my husband when my daughter was 18. So how do I do that? How do I help women? I, I think that women are really powerful in who they are. And I love, I specifically love helping women and teaching women how to sell because we are, we are nurturers. We are naturally a nurture and we naturally create through pleasure. So men push, push, push hard, hard, hard, buy, buy, buy women don't function that way. So I like to teach women sales by just using their own nature of who they are. You know, don't try to be me. Don't try to be the other best salesperson in the world. You've got to be you to do it. And you are valid and you are valuable in who you are. And so that, so I, I, I, I, especially just, I mean, I work with companies and corporations, but I really am super passionate. Like when I see a woman, especially a single mom, I'm kind of like hone in on her. And I'm just like inner ear, like really amazing. You can do it. Passionistas: What's the philosophy of Sales Tai Chi. How does it work? Amy: So Sales Tai Chi right now, the main thing that we're training teams to do, we're training them how to recreate their live events to online, because it's just necessary right now. So how do you recreate that live event experience and do it online? Sales Tai Chi is all about the energy of the sale and the flow of energy and how to take whatever comes at you and move it into the energy that you want it to be moved into. So rather than blocking the energy of a no accepting the energy, turning the energy into what you want. And when, when you do get to know what I train our teams to do is to accept that no, you know, when you get objections, that's different than a no. When you get objections, you want to turn that objection and vet and validate their objection. Because if somebody says to you, Oh, I just, I just don't have the time right now. Well, that's just, that's an ex an objection in reality. It's an excuse because they just told me they really wanted this, but now they're telling you they don't have time. Right. So you never want to say, Oh, but you've got plenty of time. Or you got, because you're just invalidating their excuse and their excuse in their own head is really valid. So it's more about asking questions, you know? So when they, when they say, Oh, I don't have time. Oh, I know. Yeah. Time can be. That can be tough. Do you want more time? You know what I mean? So it's like, it's like accepting, accepting it. And if it's a no, except the no sales is like kissing, the other person has to be leaning in, or you can't kiss them. Passionistas: You talk about how I shouldn't try and sell the way you try and sell. So how does somebody tap into their, their personal strengths to figure out what their best approaches? Amy: So I would just ask you, like, when you're like, do you, do you sell anything right now? Passionistas: We sell a subscription box. Amy: Okay. Oh, cool. What's in it? Passionistas: It's all products from women owned businesses and female artists. Amy: I love that. That's great. Okay. So what is your favorite thing about the products? Like what are you most excited about that excites you about that product? Passionistas: To me, the most exciting thing about the subscription box is that we're supporting other women. Like it's just, you know, we, we beyond selling the products, we, uh, interview every woman in the box and we share their stories so that people are, aren't just buying the product. They're supporting the woman behind the product. And to me, that's what I love about doing the subscriber. Amy: What do you absolutely hate about selling? Passionistas: Asking people for money. Amy: Okay. Yeah. So then what I would do with you is I would shift your mindset around about that because are these products gonna serve that person? Passionistas: Yes.    Amy: So if you're not selling, you're not serving. So I would just help you shift that mindset around asking people for money because it is value. It is valuable, right? Passionistas: Oh, yeah. Amy: And then how do you sell as yourself is you just find the things that you like. So if you really love connecting with women, then just connect with them. You don't have to sell them anything. Right. Just connect with them. If that's your favorite part about it, and you hate asking money, but you love connecting, then just connect and then it's, it doesn't even feel like you're asking for my needs similar to like, you know, would you tell your best friend about a great movie that you just watched? Passionistas: Sure. Amy: So why wouldn't you tell them about the subscription box? So you're going to just tell your friends as if you were telling them about a great movie. I'll leave you with a little story. This was a kind of a big lesson for me. So when I did own the gym, I had a, I would help people lose hundreds of pounds. And I had a program that was $5,000. I'd be with you for a year. I guaranteed at least a hundred pounds of weight loss. So during that, I thought, you know what? I want to really help everybody. I really just want to help everybody and not everybody can afford me. So maybe I should just run like a free, almost weight Watchers type of a class on the weekends. So on Saturday I did an, a full hour. I had about 18 as a smaller town side, about 18 people that came during that entire year that I did that. I was there every week. Not one person lost one pound. And the worst part about it was there was a guy and he passed away at age 36, at 450 pounds. I feel like if I had sold him that package, that he would probably be here today because when people put, put money in the game, they're invested, they're, they're gonna do it. They're gonna, you know, and, and just think about the women that do buy your box and that why, like how excited are they when they get this box? I mean, who doesn't love to get a box of stuff where you're just like, I don't know what's coming and I can't wait. It's like opening. Right? Like, so tap into that excitement that the women feel that buy your box. And then that makes it a little bit easier to ask for the money because you know, they're going to be excited to get it. Passionistas: What advice would you give to a young woman that wants to be an entrepreneur? Amy: Go for it. Jump in with both feet. Don't hesitate. It's like stunts. Once you go to jump off that building, if you stop yourself in the middle of it, you're going to get hurt. Once you commit, commit and do it, don't hesitate that hesitation. That's like, there's, there is a lot of dead squirrels on the road to indecision, right? So don't hesitate when we hesitate. That's when we know, are we going to make the right decisions all the time? Probably not. That's okay. Stop beating yourself up about it. Take a little risk. It's okay. Get out there and do it. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Amy Honey. To learn more about Amy, visit her website, amyjohoney.com. Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans — to inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list, to get 10% off your first purchase. And be sure to subscribe The Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time stay well and stay passionate.

We’re on the move with a virtual road trip to Savannah Arts Academy in Savannah, Georgia. We’ll check in with both the AP coordinator (Cindy Hicks) and an AP student (Amy Oh) who is a special friend of the show. Hear pencil sharpening details about one of the largest AP Art & Design programs in the world. Plus, for the first time, we hear a student’s perspective on Advanced Placement and distance learning. Don’t miss her comments about her underappreciated AP coordinator!Music by Jackie Rae: https://www.jackierae-music.com/

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Amy: How about you? Have you ever been in an accident?Paul: Not a car accident. I was in a bicycle accident.Amy: Yeah?Paul: I laugh now but at the time, it was pretty bad.Amy: What happened?Paul: It was dark and it was Christmas day. And I was on my bicycle going down a quite steep slope and my telephone rang. And I looked at my mobile phone and I took it out of my pocket whilst riding my bike. And looked at it and noticed it was my dad and he was ringing to wish me a happy Christmas.So I felt sort of compelled to answer the phone. So answering the phone, still going down the hill, probably gathering speed. It's dark and I'm trying to get my dad off the phone as soon as I can. And before I knew it, I drove straight into the back of a parked black car.Amy: Oh no.Paul: I saw it at the very last minute. So I hit the back of it and my body slammed into the ground, and I broke a few bones, yeah. Yeah.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah, yeah. It was a pretty miserable Christmas to be honest with you.Amy: I'd say it's terrible. That's the worst.Paul: Yeah.Amy: Did the owner of the car see what happened? Did you damage the car?Paul: I didn't stay long enough. I got out of there pretty quickly.Amy: And went to the hospital.Paul: No, I was a bit stubborn. I don't know why. I was the worst night sleep I've ever had but yeah, I didn't go to the hospital until the next day.Amy: What bones did you break?Paul: I broke my collarbone, the clavicle.Amy: Oh, a nightmare.Paul: And I broke a few ribs.Amy: Oh no, ribs. That's the worst because they can't do anything for it. They just send you on your way and you just have to cough in pain.Paul: Hmm.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah. But it could have been a lot worse, you know.Amy: Hmm, that's true.Paul: Yeah. I could have broken my neck.Amy: So how long did it take you to recover?Paul: It took me about probably six weeks, I suppose.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because then—actually, in the following —it happened on Christmas day, so three months later in the March, I was lucky enough to win a place in the Tokyo marathon. And I really wanted to do it because it's quite difficult to get. It's like a lottery now. There's so many people who apply to get a position.So I wasn't going to let this accident stop me from running the Tokyo marathon. So I was trying to rush it, really and I shouldn't have. But I did. I've run there.Amy: Did you?Paul: Yeah.Amy: Oh, my goodness.Paul: Yeah, I finished it but—Amy: Congratulations. But how were you? That must have really hindered your recovery.Paul: It hindered my training period for the marathon, yeah, so.Amy: But you finished it though.Paul: I finished it, yeah.Amy: Well done.Paul: I wouldn't do it again. Marathons are miserable things to be. Really. Why put yourselves through that pain? I still like running so maybe in the future, I'd do a half marathon or something, yeah. But a full marathon—my marathon days are over, I think. Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Amy: How about you? Have you ever been in an accident?Paul: Not a car accident. I was in a bicycle accident.Amy: Yeah?Paul: I laugh now but at the time, it was pretty bad.Amy: What happened?Paul: It was dark and it was Christmas day. And I was on my bicycle going down a quite steep slope and my telephone rang. And I looked at my mobile phone and I took it out of my pocket whilst riding my bike. And looked at it and noticed it was my dad and he was ringing to wish me a happy Christmas.So I felt sort of compelled to answer the phone. So answering the phone, still going down the hill, probably gathering speed. It's dark and I'm trying to get my dad off the phone as soon as I can. And before I knew it, I drove straight into the back of a parked black car.Amy: Oh no.Paul: I saw it at the very last minute. So I hit the back of it and my body slammed into the ground, and I broke a few bones, yeah. Yeah.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah, yeah. It was a pretty miserable Christmas to be honest with you.Amy: I'd say it's terrible. That's the worst.Paul: Yeah.Amy: Did the owner of the car see what happened? Did you damage the car?Paul: I didn't stay long enough. I got out of there pretty quickly.Amy: And went to the hospital.Paul: No, I was a bit stubborn. I don't know why. I was the worst night sleep I've ever had but yeah, I didn't go to the hospital until the next day.Amy: What bones did you break?Paul: I broke my collarbone, the clavicle.Amy: Oh, a nightmare.Paul: And I broke a few ribs.Amy: Oh no, ribs. That's the worst because they can't do anything for it. They just send you on your way and you just have to cough in pain.Paul: Hmm.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah. But it could have been a lot worse, you know.Amy: Hmm, that's true.Paul: Yeah. I could have broken my neck.Amy: So how long did it take you to recover?Paul: It took me about probably six weeks, I suppose.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because then—actually, in the following —it happened on Christmas day, so three months later in the March, I was lucky enough to win a place in the Tokyo marathon. And I really wanted to do it because it's quite difficult to get. It's like a lottery now. There's so many people who apply to get a position.So I wasn't going to let this accident stop me from running the Tokyo marathon. So I was trying to rush it, really and I shouldn't have. But I did. I've run there.Amy: Did you?Paul: Yeah.Amy: Oh, my goodness.Paul: Yeah, I finished it but—Amy: Congratulations. But how were you? That must have really hindered your recovery.Paul: It hindered my training period for the marathon, yeah, so.Amy: But you finished it though.Paul: I finished it, yeah.Amy: Well done.Paul: I wouldn't do it again. Marathons are miserable things to be. Really. Why put yourselves through that pain? I still like running so maybe in the future, I'd do a half marathon or something, yeah. But a full marathon—my marathon days are over, I think. Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Amy: How about you? Have you ever been in an accident?Paul: Not a car accident. I was in a bicycle accident.Amy: Yeah?Paul: I laugh now but at the time, it was pretty bad.Amy: What happened?Paul: It was dark and it was Christmas day. And I was on my bicycle going down a quite steep slope and my telephone rang. And I looked at my mobile phone and I took it out of my pocket whilst riding my bike. And looked at it and noticed it was my dad and he was ringing to wish me a happy Christmas.So I felt sort of compelled to answer the phone. So answering the phone, still going down the hill, probably gathering speed. It's dark and I'm trying to get my dad off the phone as soon as I can. And before I knew it, I drove straight into the back of a parked black car.Amy: Oh no.Paul: I saw it at the very last minute. So I hit the back of it and my body slammed into the ground, and I broke a few bones, yeah. Yeah.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah, yeah. It was a pretty miserable Christmas to be honest with you.Amy: I'd say it's terrible. That's the worst.Paul: Yeah.Amy: Did the owner of the car see what happened? Did you damage the car?Paul: I didn't stay long enough. I got out of there pretty quickly.Amy: And went to the hospital.Paul: No, I was a bit stubborn. I don't know why. I was the worst night sleep I've ever had but yeah, I didn't go to the hospital until the next day.Amy: What bones did you break?Paul: I broke my collarbone, the clavicle.Amy: Oh, a nightmare.Paul: And I broke a few ribs.Amy: Oh no, ribs. That's the worst because they can't do anything for it. They just send you on your way and you just have to cough in pain.Paul: Hmm.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah. But it could have been a lot worse, you know.Amy: Hmm, that's true.Paul: Yeah. I could have broken my neck.Amy: So how long did it take you to recover?Paul: It took me about probably six weeks, I suppose.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because then—actually, in the following —it happened on Christmas day, so three months later in the March, I was lucky enough to win a place in the Tokyo marathon. And I really wanted to do it because it's quite difficult to get. It's like a lottery now. There's so many people who apply to get a position.So I wasn't going to let this accident stop me from running the Tokyo marathon. So I was trying to rush it, really and I shouldn't have. But I did. I've run there.Amy: Did you?Paul: Yeah.Amy: Oh, my goodness.Paul: Yeah, I finished it but—Amy: Congratulations. But how were you? That must have really hindered your recovery.Paul: It hindered my training period for the marathon, yeah, so.Amy: But you finished it though.Paul: I finished it, yeah.Amy: Well done.Paul: I wouldn't do it again. Marathons are miserable things to be. Really. Why put yourselves through that pain? I still like running so maybe in the future, I'd do a half marathon or something, yeah. But a full marathon—my marathon days are over, I think. Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So I was on my way to work the other day, and I saw this really—you shouldn't laugh but it was quite funny traffic accident. I shouldn't laugh but this old lady was in her car. And bless her, she must have got confused and she put the car into reverse and when she went to like put the car in forward gear, and she drove like straight into the person behind her and smashed up the car behind her.Amy: Oh no.Paul: I mean, it was an inocent mistake but it could happen to any of us but it was a bit, sort of calamitous really. How about you? Have you had any car accidents?Amy: Not like that. I've been in a car—I was a passenger in a car accident. When I was about 17, my boyfriend at the time was driving too fast on a country road with a national speed limit. So he was going pretty fast and then we were pulling into a small village, so he had to slow right down. The roads were very, very wet. It was dark. He came up over a small hill and there was a big jeep suddenly waiting to turn right and he stomped on the brakes and skidded right into the back of it. So his little car just got demolished by this jeep.We were okay. He hit his head on the steering wheel. And I think I had seatbelt pain from where the seatbelt was but yeah, the car was a write-off. But we were okay.Paul: Wow. Thank goodness for that. It sounds like pretty horrific.Amy: No, no. It was okay.Paul: Yeah.Amy: It taught him to, I guess, be a better driver. He was driving too fast on slippery and dark conditions.Paul: Yeah. I guess when you're at that age, you almost feel like you're untouchable, nothing can stop you. So sometimes, you need those sorts of experiences to kind of make you realize that.Amy: Don't be a boy racer.Paul: Don't be a boy racer and it can be taken away from you. Your life could be taken away from you very easily, you know. It's pretty—Amy: Yeah, we were really lucky, for sure.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So I was on my way to work the other day, and I saw this really—you shouldn't laugh but it was quite funny traffic accident. I shouldn't laugh but this old lady was in her car. And bless her, she must have got confused and she put the car into reverse and when she went to like put the car in forward gear, and she drove like straight into the person behind her and smashed up the car behind her.Amy: Oh no.Paul: I mean, it was an inocent mistake but it could happen to any of us but it was a bit, sort of calamitous really. How about you? Have you had any car accidents?Amy: Not like that. I've been in a car—I was a passenger in a car accident. When I was about 17, my boyfriend at the time was driving too fast on a country road with a national speed limit. So he was going pretty fast and then we were pulling into a small village, so he had to slow right down. The roads were very, very wet. It was dark. He came up over a small hill and there was a big jeep suddenly waiting to turn right and he stomped on the brakes and skidded right into the back of it. So his little car just got demolished by this jeep.We were okay. He hit his head on the steering wheel. And I think I had seatbelt pain from where the seatbelt was but yeah, the car was a write-off. But we were okay.Paul: Wow. Thank goodness for that. It sounds like pretty horrific.Amy: No, no. It was okay.Paul: Yeah.Amy: It taught him to, I guess, be a better driver. He was driving too fast on slippery and dark conditions.Paul: Yeah. I guess when you're at that age, you almost feel like you're untouchable, nothing can stop you. So sometimes, you need those sorts of experiences to kind of make you realize that.Amy: Don't be a boy racer.Paul: Don't be a boy racer and it can be taken away from you. Your life could be taken away from you very easily, you know. It's pretty—Amy: Yeah, we were really lucky, for sure.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So I was on my way to work the other day, and I saw this really—you shouldn't laugh but it was quite funny traffic accident. I shouldn't laugh but this old lady was in her car. And bless her, she must have got confused and she put the car into reverse and when she went to like put the car in forward gear, and she drove like straight into the person behind her and smashed up the car behind her.Amy: Oh no.Paul: I mean, it was an inocent mistake but it could happen to any of us but it was a bit, sort of calamitous really. How about you? Have you had any car accidents?Amy: Not like that. I've been in a car—I was a passenger in a car accident. When I was about 17, my boyfriend at the time was driving too fast on a country road with a national speed limit. So he was going pretty fast and then we were pulling into a small village, so he had to slow right down. The roads were very, very wet. It was dark. He came up over a small hill and there was a big jeep suddenly waiting to turn right and he stomped on the brakes and skidded right into the back of it. So his little car just got demolished by this jeep.We were okay. He hit his head on the steering wheel. And I think I had seatbelt pain from where the seatbelt was but yeah, the car was a write-off. But we were okay.Paul: Wow. Thank goodness for that. It sounds like pretty horrific.Amy: No, no. It was okay.Paul: Yeah.Amy: It taught him to, I guess, be a better driver. He was driving too fast on slippery and dark conditions.Paul: Yeah. I guess when you're at that age, you almost feel like you're untouchable, nothing can stop you. So sometimes, you need those sorts of experiences to kind of make you realize that.Amy: Don't be a boy racer.Paul: Don't be a boy racer and it can be taken away from you. Your life could be taken away from you very easily, you know. It's pretty—Amy: Yeah, we were really lucky, for sure.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Amy: So speaking of climate change, what do you think are three things that we can do to try and personally help climate change—well, prevent climate change in our lives? What do you think?Paul: Obviously, the big concern with climate change is carbon emissions. So that would like lead me to look at my usage of fuel because that's a huge source of carbon emissions. So probably, I'd say, number one, reduce my car usage or transport usage.Amy: Right.Paul: I don't personally have a car and I always take the bus to work.Amy: That's a good start then, isn't it?Paul: Yeah. I'm not doing it trying to reduce the effects of carbon base; it's just that—yeah. Secondly, I think trying to source your foods locally. I think that would be a huge help too because it reduces the transportation of food. And I think in reality, I think we could produce a lot of what we need locally, you know. I don't think we should be eating strawberries in the middle of winter. I don't think we should be. I think we should try and eat seasonally as well, what's available to us. But we've become so used to being able to get what we want when we want it, and it's having a huge impact on our environment.How about you, Amy? Do you have any ideas about how we can perhaps challenge—how we can perhaps address the problem?Amy: It's interesting you mentioned about the carbon emissions. Obviously, it's really important to reduce those. And I do have a car and I need it to get places as most people do. And currently, I also live really, really far away from where I was born and raised so to travel to see my family, I need to take long-haul air flights. And I guess reducing those, it's the flights I think that contribute more towards carbon emissions than perhaps driving my car. So it's about making that balance, I think. Seeing your family versus being green, I think.But it was an interesting point you said about also sourcing our food. I think that's something that we can definitely do. I agree with that and locally sourced food, I think will help reduce carbon emissions.Small things as well like, if we're going food shopping. If we have to go food shopping, then, you know, taking your own bag. Stop using all the excess packaging, things like that. Where I live right now is a country that uses a lot of packaging and it makes me sad. I think the first thing I learned to say in the language of that country was I don't need that bag, thank you. So, I mean, it's a very, very small step but I think if everybody tried to do it a bit more, it would help in a small way.Paul: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I tried to—it drives me crazy how much plastic we use. And if you think about how much energy is going into producing that plastic, you know—yeah. I mean, people talk about cars and stuff but this production of plastic—I mean, I had a banana the other day and it was wrapped in plastic.Amy: Oh no.Paul: A banana. I mean, it's perfectly wrapped by nature yet they felt some reason to put it in plastic. I couldn't believe it. I almost wanted to—I almost had to laugh hysterically or cry. Yeah, a lot of it is crazy, you know.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Amy: So speaking of climate change, what do you think are three things that we can do to try and personally help climate change—well, prevent climate change in our lives? What do you think?Paul: Obviously, the big concern with climate change is carbon emissions. So that would like lead me to look at my usage of fuel because that's a huge source of carbon emissions. So probably, I'd say, number one, reduce my car usage or transport usage.Amy: Right.Paul: I don't personally have a car and I always take the bus to work.Amy: That's a good start then, isn't it?Paul: Yeah. I'm not doing it trying to reduce the effects of carbon base; it's just that—yeah. Secondly, I think trying to source your foods locally. I think that would be a huge help too because it reduces the transportation of food. And I think in reality, I think we could produce a lot of what we need locally, you know. I don't think we should be eating strawberries in the middle of winter. I don't think we should be. I think we should try and eat seasonally as well, what's available to us. But we've become so used to being able to get what we want when we want it, and it's having a huge impact on our environment.How about you, Amy? Do you have any ideas about how we can perhaps challenge—how we can perhaps address the problem?Amy: It's interesting you mentioned about the carbon emissions. Obviously, it's really important to reduce those. And I do have a car and I need it to get places as most people do. And currently, I also live really, really far away from where I was born and raised so to travel to see my family, I need to take long-haul air flights. And I guess reducing those, it's the flights I think that contribute more towards carbon emissions than perhaps driving my car. So it's about making that balance, I think. Seeing your family versus being green, I think.But it was an interesting point you said about also sourcing our food. I think that's something that we can definitely do. I agree with that and locally sourced food, I think will help reduce carbon emissions.Small things as well like, if we're going food shopping. If we have to go food shopping, then, you know, taking your own bag. Stop using all the excess packaging, things like that. Where I live right now is a country that uses a lot of packaging and it makes me sad. I think the first thing I learned to say in the language of that country was I don't need that bag, thank you. So, I mean, it's a very, very small step but I think if everybody tried to do it a bit more, it would help in a small way.Paul: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I tried to—it drives me crazy how much plastic we use. And if you think about how much energy is going into producing that plastic, you know—yeah. I mean, people talk about cars and stuff but this production of plastic—I mean, I had a banana the other day and it was wrapped in plastic.Amy: Oh no.Paul: A banana. I mean, it's perfectly wrapped by nature yet they felt some reason to put it in plastic. I couldn't believe it. I almost wanted to—I almost had to laugh hysterically or cry. Yeah, a lot of it is crazy, you know.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Amy: So speaking of climate change, what do you think are three things that we can do to try and personally help climate change—well, prevent climate change in our lives? What do you think?Paul: Obviously, the big concern with climate change is carbon emissions. So that would like lead me to look at my usage of fuel because that's a huge source of carbon emissions. So probably, I'd say, number one, reduce my car usage or transport usage.Amy: Right.Paul: I don't personally have a car and I always take the bus to work.Amy: That's a good start then, isn't it?Paul: Yeah. I'm not doing it trying to reduce the effects of carbon base; it's just that—yeah. Secondly, I think trying to source your foods locally. I think that would be a huge help too because it reduces the transportation of food. And I think in reality, I think we could produce a lot of what we need locally, you know. I don't think we should be eating strawberries in the middle of winter. I don't think we should be. I think we should try and eat seasonally as well, what's available to us. But we've become so used to being able to get what we want when we want it, and it's having a huge impact on our environment.How about you, Amy? Do you have any ideas about how we can perhaps challenge—how we can perhaps address the problem?Amy: It's interesting you mentioned about the carbon emissions. Obviously, it's really important to reduce those. And I do have a car and I need it to get places as most people do. And currently, I also live really, really far away from where I was born and raised so to travel to see my family, I need to take long-haul air flights. And I guess reducing those, it's the flights I think that contribute more towards carbon emissions than perhaps driving my car. So it's about making that balance, I think. Seeing your family versus being green, I think.But it was an interesting point you said about also sourcing our food. I think that's something that we can definitely do. I agree with that and locally sourced food, I think will help reduce carbon emissions.Small things as well like, if we're going food shopping. If we have to go food shopping, then, you know, taking your own bag. Stop using all the excess packaging, things like that. Where I live right now is a country that uses a lot of packaging and it makes me sad. I think the first thing I learned to say in the language of that country was I don't need that bag, thank you. So, I mean, it's a very, very small step but I think if everybody tried to do it a bit more, it would help in a small way.Paul: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I tried to—it drives me crazy how much plastic we use. And if you think about how much energy is going into producing that plastic, you know—yeah. I mean, people talk about cars and stuff but this production of plastic—I mean, I had a banana the other day and it was wrapped in plastic.Amy: Oh no.Paul: A banana. I mean, it's perfectly wrapped by nature yet they felt some reason to put it in plastic. I couldn't believe it. I almost wanted to—I almost had to laugh hysterically or cry. Yeah, a lot of it is crazy, you know.

On the thirteenth installment of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger speaks with Traci Adedeji, the AIO program lead at AIPSO and president elect of the Rhode Island Chapter of the CPCU Society, in a wide-ranging interview about her unique role, her unconventional journey into the insurance industry, and so much more. Traci espouses the importance of establishing mentoring relationships at work and shares some advice on how to foster a very strong professional network on LinkedIn. Check the links in the show notes to connect with her and find out more about the CPCU Society!Connect with Traci on LinkedIn.http://bit.ly/2T9giYRFind out more about the CPCU Society on their website. They're also on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook. Links in order, beginning with their website:https://bit.ly/3cWpbh7https://bit.ly/3giUQeGhttps://bit.ly/2WUwfFuhttps://bit.ly/3e6nON4Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org:https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach Nunn. Now, listen here. Y'all know what we're trying to do. We're trying to build, inspire, encourage, empower, all on a platform that affirms black and brown experiences in corporate America. And it's interesting because as I came up just kind of coming into myself as a professional, I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me in consulting. I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me in human resources either. But when I would come across someone who looked like me doing something I wanted to do, it gave me encouragement. It gave me a stronger sense of hope that I could do it too, and so it's with that that we're really excited to talk to y'all about and bring you another entry, actually, into our See It to Be It series. So the next thing you're gonna hear is an interview between Amy C. Waninger, a guest on the show, a member of the team, and the author of Network Beyond Bias, and a leader who just happens to be an ethnic minority. In fact, yo, Sound Man, give me some air horns right HERE for my leaders. [he complies] Yo, and give me some more air horns right HERE [he complies again] for the See It to Be It series. So catch y'all next time. I know you're gonna enjoy this. Peace.Amy: Hi, Traci. Thank you so much for joining me today.Traci: Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm honored that you asked me to join you.Amy: Well, I am excited, because you and I have worked together before on committees and projects, but never in the same company, although we are at least in part in the same industry, in the insurance industry. And so I was wondering if you could tell me just a little bit--because your job title is program manager, but a lot of people who are not in a project management space or in a corporate space with a lot of projects may not understand what a program manager does, so can we just start there with kind of what is that job?Traci: Okay. So technically it's "program lead." I work for AIPSO, which is not an insurance company, but we provide services to the insurance industry. So the easiest example that I can offer for what we do would be let's say that in the state of Rhode Island, most--every state actually has a mechanism to handle what's called residual market business for automobile insurance, because in just about every state you have to have automobile insurance to be able to drive. So what happens is that, you know, if Allstate writes 40% of all of the standard automobile business in a state, the state will say, "Well, you also have to write 40% of the residual market business in that state," and--Amy: And the residual market is typically, like, really high-risk drivers that couldn't get insurance other ways, right?Traci: Essentially--exactly, people who are unable to get insurance through the standard market for a variety of reasons. So what Allstate might say is, "We know we have to write this business, but we really don't want to program our systems to handle this business. We don't want to hire people to handle this business that's underwritten and processed a little bit differently than our standard business, so what we're gonna do is we're gonna hire AIPSO or a company like AIPSO to handle it on our behalf." So that's probably the cleanest example I can give of what we do. There's some variations on the ways those different mechanisms work, but that's probably the clearest example. As the program lead, my responsibility is a little bit of underwriting, a little bit of program or project work. If we have to implement changes in the system, I'd be involved in the business requirements and working with the technical folks to make sure that our systems can accomodate what it is that we need to do from an underwriting and processing perspective.Amy: Thank you for that. I appreciate that. So how did you get involved in the insurance industry? Because I'm guessing, based on all of the people I've talked to in the insurance industry, that when you were 5 years old and, you know, you went to a family event and Grandma said, "And Traci, what do you want to be when you grow up?" You probably didn't say, "I want to be an insurance program lead." [both laugh]Traci: You are absolutely correct, although I do love insurance so much that I think we have to get to a point where, especially little brown boys and girls say, "We want to work in insurance." I was--I'm 54 years old. I'll be 55 in April. And when I was 16 years old, I was a teen mom, and when I was 17 years old I had another baby. So here I am, two children, college dropout, and my parents said, "You gotta get a job. You gotta do something to take care of your babies." So I got a job working at an insurance agency as a file clerk, and one day everybody was busy, the phone rang, I answered the phone, and it was a very simple call that I was able to answer because I had been listening to the people who were customer service representatives, so I just handled the call. I got promoted to customer service [?], and this was in 1984, and just worked my way up. I went from working on the agency side of the business to the company side of the business, as an assistant underwriter to an underwriter to an underwriting manager in different companies around the New York City area. In 2007, I thought I was in love, [laughs] and actually left the industry and moved from the New York City area to Rochester, New York. That relationship and the business that we were trying to build together in a different industry didn't work out, and I had to get a job, and insurance was all I knew at that point, 'cause at that point I had worked in the industry for over 20 years. So I came to Amica in Rochester, moved to Rhode Island, and, you know, Amica is an amazing place to work. I was very happy working there, but I got a call one day from a recruiter--that's what happens when, you know, people have your information out there when you're networking, and the gentleman said, "I've got this position I'm trying to fill. Do you know anyone who would be interested?" And when I looked at it, it looked like it was the perfect storm of everything that I'd learned to do in all of the different positions that I'd had in insurance. So I went on to interview and I said to myself, "Okay, I really don't want to leave Amica [?], but, you know, this is a really cool opportunity." So I had a number in my mind. I said, "Okay, if they come back at that number, that's gonna be the universe telling me that this job is for me." I interviewed on a Wednesday, and on Friday I got an offer at the exact number that I had in my mind.Amy: That's amazing. So I always tell people, "When a recruiter calls, answer, because you never know what's waiting on the other side of the phone for you," and if not for you, then someone that you know, right? You may think, "Oh, I have no interest in that whatsoever, but I know someone," and if you can connect those two people, you've just created something amazing for someone else.Traci: Exactly, which was also the relationship with that recruiter, because if you then get to the point where you legitimately are looking for a position, they're gonna remember how you helped them out when they were trying to place folks and they're gonna do their best for you.Amy: Absolutely. And sometimes you even get a little referral bonus out of it if you--[both laugh] if you, you know, send them to somebody that they can place. So I've had that work out for me too. I was never expecting it, but when it happened it was always nice. So you've already told me about the different types of positions that you've held in the industry, but, you know, you came into this industry kind of by chance, right? You just happened to get a job at an agency. What has been the biggest surprise to you about working in insurance that you didn't realize as someone from outside?Traci: This is something that I've known for a while, but I think the thing that solidfied my interest in insurance and was my "a-ha" moment was when I started studying insurance, when I started studying--I actually started studying for my CPCU, which is, as you know, a professional designation in the industry. I started studying for my designation in 1992, and in studying insurance I came to have an appreciation for first of all how important insurance is, but also how diverse the industry is. Pretty much any discipline that you would be interested in studying, there is a job for you in the insurance industry, and that is I think the coolest thing about insurance.Amy: Yeah, I had a similar experience. So I came into the insurance industry as an IT professional. That was my background. No insurance background whatsoever, but I just happened to be a consultant that got placed at an insurance company, and when I then later got hired by the insurance company, somebody told me about the CPCU designation, which--it stands for Chartered Property Casualty Underwriter. It's a professional designation that requires 8 courses to complete. You have to pass some tests, which thank goodness they're multiple choice now. They used to be blue book.Traci: [laughs] Yeah, I remember the books.Amy: No, thank you. I wouldn't have done it. I would've been too scared. But anyway, I started studying because, you know, I wanted to prove myself in this industry, and I wanted to frankly get the bonus that came with getting the designation that my employer offered at that time, and I was amazed by the scope of the insurance industry and the mission of the insurance industry, and when people ask me "Why do you love insurance?" And, you know, my focus of my company is not insurance-specific, although maybe it will be someday, but I think insurance is so fascinating because it does two things. It makes all economic investment possible. There's no part of the economy that insurance is not affected by or that it affects, right? I mean, every single transaction that happens is backed somewhere by an insurer. And the other thing we do in the insurance industry is we're there when people need us most. I mean, on somebody's worst day, we're there to help in, you know, ways that we can to make them whole and get them back on their feet, and I can't even imagine a more meaningful industry than that. So if somebody who has maybe never considered the insurance industry before and wants to learn more about the kinds of jobs available and how to get in--you know, how to kind of break into this industry, where would you recommend that they go?Traci: I would recommend that they get in touch with the local chapter of CPCU. I would also recommend that they get in touch with professional insurance agents and brokers, because they have professional organizations. Depending on where they are in their career, I would, you know, for example, if they're a high school or college student who's interested in the industry, I would look at internships with companies, with insurance companies. So those would be my suggestions. I do also know that through professional organizations, those of us who are invested enough in the industry and in our careers to be a part of these organizations have a tendency to be pretty generous people, so it would be pretty easy to even get a one-on-one informal, or even formal, mentoring relationship with someone who is in the industry that could offer some guidance.Amy: That's a great idea, and I know that there are a number of formal programs, but like you said, LinkedIn is a great way to just connect with someone if you have a target company in mind and you want to learn more about it. Most people are open to a phone call or at least exchanging emails and, you know, seeing what they can do to help. That is true. So, you know, the insurance industry has a reputation--and I won't say whether I feel that this is deserved or not, and you know exactly where I'm going--but the insurance industry has this reputation for being stale, pale, and male, and it's all a bunch of old white men, and that's it, right? And I know a lot of different industries suffer from this stigma, but for people who are maybe not older or white or men, what resources have you found that can help them kind of find their place in the industry, feel connected to others, feel a sense of community so that we can retain that talent in this industry and not lose it to somebody else?Traci: For me, I think back to a company that I worked for in 1990, and that was where I really got my start as an insurance professional and learned the most about the industry, but it's also where I recognized that at that particular company, in 1990, the early '90s, if I wasn't a white man with a degree from the right school, there was a very distinct feeling on how far I was going to progress in my career, and that was why I ended up leaving the company. I think that we--you know, it's great to join organizations, but I'm a grassroots kind of chick. I think that it is important to give back to each other, whether it's women, whether it's people of color. It's, like, whatever commonality you have with someone, if you see someone that's struggling or you see someone who's where you were previously in your career, you have a responsibility to reach out to that person and to offer them guidance if they're receptive to it. I'm the type of person that I have no qualms about reaching out to other women, to women of color, to just form those informal mentoring relationships, even if it's just "Let's have lunch once a month." There's people I don't even work with anymore. It just might be, like, an email or a LinkedIn message every now and then. So I think there's great value in forming those types of relationships. Yes, it's professional, but I think that if it's sort of a little more casual where you bond with that person and feel comfortable speaking with them, they're gonna be able to really guide you in a meaningful way.Amy: So that leads me right into my next question, which is I've noticed about you that you have a very strong professional network. I mean, you know everybody it seems like. [both laugh] And not all the same kind of people. Like, you really know people up and down the hierarchy. You know people across the industry, and when we were together at a conference last year I was just so impressed by the span of the network that you have, and so I was wondering what's your approach or what are your tips to networking and how do you stay connected with so many people with such limited time?Traci: LinkedIn makes it easy, because I can be on my computer at, I don't know, 2:00 in the morning when I wake up and can't sleep, and I can pop in and see what people have posted. I don't even have to tell you I absolutely adore your content, and every single thing you post I read and I share, you know, because I just find a lot of value in what you post, and I do the same for other people who are a part of my network. As far as I guess connecting with people, my advice would be ask. It's simply to ask. There's a woman who worked at a previous company, and she was pretty high up, you know, in the food chain if you will, and we didn't really--I mean, we had casually and in passing at work spoke, but it's not like we had a relationship. She ended up leaving the company, and I had no qualms about sending her a connection request on LinkedIn. I said, "Well, the worst that could happen is that she won't accept it, and if she says no I'm no worse off than I was before." I think that everyone has something to offer, regardless of their discipline, regardless of their position or title. I think that a lot of times we don't make those connections because we pre-judge and make assumptions. So I think that you just ask. Amy: That's good advice: So I have a friend in the speaking industry who says, "Every time you ask you risk getting a yes," and I really like that, and so I tried to kind of shore up my nerve to ask more, because I would not mind risking getting a yes.Traci: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I tell people this. I am by nature a pretty shy and reserved person. I grew up as the kid who got teased a lot in school and, you know, that whole thing, so not a lot of self-confidence in my younger years, but when you get to a point where you've got kids to feed and you recognize that the higher you achieve in your career the more money you're gonna make, you kind of put that to the side, you put your game face on, and you make what magic happen you need to make happen, and what happens is that as you practice that, even if you say to yourself "I'm gonna try to connect with one new person this week at work," "I'm gonna try to make a connection with one person who I've not had a connection with previously." The more you do it the more comfortable it becomes and the more confident you are in doing it.Amy: That is absolutely true, and I think a lot of people see networking as something very fake and forced and inauthentic, and they don't feel good about it, right? It kind of leaves, like, an icky, like, feeling about it, and when you approach it from, you know, almost gamifying it--I've done that in the past, right? "I'm gonna meet three people today. I'm gonna help three people with something," whether it's, you know, I'm gonna carry somebody's bag or I'm gonna hold open a door and say hello. Like, something, and so I think sometimes just kind of reframing how we think about networking can make a huge difference in our behaviors and our attitudes and ultimately in our results.Traci: Right. You actually said something that I think is very important, that networking and connecting with people if you treat it as "What can you do for that person?" versus "What can I get from that person?" Because people know when you're being fake. People know when you, you know, just have your hand out or you're looking for something, but we need to first of all not undervalue ourselves and recognize that we each bring something unique, but there's only one me. Nobody else brings exactly what I bring in this combination, and we have to recognize that that has value and that other people will see that value, and if we focus on "What can we offer others, even if it's a small kindness?" You know, those things, the universe will bring those things back to you.Amy: Absolutely. So I know that in addition to your day job you also volunteer with the CPCU Society's diversity and inclusion committee, and I know what a time commitment that is because I'm on the committee as well, but can you tell me how and why you got involved?Traci: I got involved because I was asked. [?]. I was new to Rhode Island, and I actually got--I'm on the board of the local chapter [?], and I was moving to Rhode Island. I said, "I don't know anyone. I want to, you know, meet folks, so joining this organization would be a great way to make friends and immerse myself even more deeply in my industry." So my request to volunteer resulted in me being asked to be on the board, and my relationship with David resulted in him asking if I was interested in being on the diversity committee. And it's a lot of work, but I think that it is important. I think the idea of diversity and inclusion has evolved so much over the years. When a lot of people hear diversity, you know, they think racial diversity, they think gender diversity, but there are so many other types of diversity, and it really I think is about making sure that there are opportunities for everyone, but I think it's also toward being a catalyst for the mindset that needs to happen so that opportunities are there for everyone automatically. We don't have to say, you know, "Oh, we have to go out and make sure that we have a person of color," there's a person of color because we just organically created a culture and a society with people of color in our community, so of course they're gonna have a role in our company, in our organization.Amy: Absolutely. And I tell people, "If you look around and you don't see someone's group represented, it's because you've got work to do to make people feel welcome and make people feel comfortable there." The responsibility is not on others to seek you out, right? And so, you know, I'm thrilled to be a part of the diversity and inclusion committee because I see that what's coming for us in terms of our talent, right, we have so many people on the verge of retirement in the insurance industry, and we just don't have the groundswell of interest among people, you know, that we need to replace all of that knowledge and all of that talent, and so I think, you know, we're gonna have to get beyond the "certain people from certain schools" and, you know, really reach out broadly and show people what we've got and why we're such a good place to have a career.Traci: Right. I think it's about building the excitement about the industry. You know, insurance isn't sexy to most people, and I think that, you know, the work that we do, particularly with the CPCU Society and the diversity and inclusion committee, is to educate the public about the excitement. Like, it's kind of our job to get them excited about insurance and to show them what next level opportunities there are. It's not just sitting behind a desk in a blue suit and white shirt and red tie. [both laugh]Amy: Absolutely true. So I wanted to ask you too about role models. Do you have any professional role models, and if so, what about them inspires you? Traci: So there's a woman--the woman that I mentioned that used to work with me, and I consider her a role model. So a few things about her that resonated with me... first of all, she's very tall like I am. [laughs] And that's something that it took a lot of years for me to overcome, because there's a tendency when you're quite tall to not want to intimidate people, so you tend to kind of--you slump a little, you try to make yourself small. So it takes a courage to just be, to stand up and just be who you are and recognize that you're putting that in your mind about, you know, your stature intimidates people, but she had such a grace about her and just a way of connecting with people. I don't know. She just had influence. She had such presence and influence, and that is something that I admire greatly and something that I work toward emulating.Amy: That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. So I hear men a lot of times will talk about "tall privilege," right? So if you're a tall man, and the statistics bear this out, tall men make more money than short men. They get promoted to higher positions. Like, we revere tall men in our society. Tall women have a different set of characteristics ascribed to them, and I am--I am not blessed with height. I'm only 5'3", but I can--you know, I can imagine how that might play out and how that might affect the way you show up. And, you know, if you're trying to make yourself smaller physically, you're probably also trying to minimize your presence in a room and minimize your contribution and not call attention to yourself and not let the best of you thrive in an environment. Traci: Actually it's interesting, 'cause I had a conversation with someone probably about six weeks ago about the idea that as a very tall not petite woman of color, if I am annoyed at work or if I feel very passionately about something, I feel that I don't have the luxury of being as vocal as someone who is not of my stature and my pigmentation, because it's perceived differently. Amy: If you're vocal about a frustration, I would imagine that the word that comes back to you is "angry" or "aggressive." If I get upset about something, if I'm frustrated and I express my frustration, I'm [BLEEP], right? I'm not angry 'cause I'm white and I'm not aggressive 'cause I'm short, but I'm [BLEEP] or I'm overreacting or I'm sensitive, right? And so I think that we all kind of operate in these constraints of words that are going to be used to describe us to kind of keep us in check, 'cause I don't like it when people say that I'm being sensitive. It's like, "No, I'm not being sensitive. You're being a jerk." But--[both laugh] that's not on me. So I can understand how that would be a struggle. So what advice do you have for young people of color in navigating those kinds of interactions? Because you want people to be, I'm guessing--I mean, we want people to show up authentically, right, but we don't want to lay a trap for people who the moment they speak up and advocate for themselves they get labeled in a way that's damaging to their careers.Traci: I can tell you what's worked for me. I think--to your point, it is important that you be who you are. So I'm 5'10". I'm gonna wear my four-inch heels because that's what I want to wear. If I think that something is not right, I am going to speak up about it. What I try to do is--and I'm just gonna say it, because I don't want to suggest that anyone be manipulative, but in a business setting, okay, what I do is I say to myself, "What is it that I want to get out of this exchange?" And, you know, know who my audience is and know what I need to say and how I need to say it to get what I need out of this interaction. You know, and I'm not talking about things where, like, I don't know, I'm being discriminated against or harassed or something like that, 'cause that's a whole different--and that's, thank God, never happened to me to my knowledge, but that's a whole other kind of conversation, but just an every day--you know, your boss has said something that you didn't like, or you've been assigned something that you don't think you should have to do or something to that affect. I think that it's important to always conduct yourself professionally. I think it's also important to separate your feelings from what the situation is, because just like the other person has their biases and this whole set of ideas and backgrounds that's influencing their behavior, so do we, and we have to recognize, like, the things that we're sensitive about. We have to recognize how we might have contributed to that situation, and we need to present our case in a constructive way. And it's interesting, because I have a 25-year-old daughter who's going through this at work right now, and what I've encouraged her to do is, you know, write down what you want to say. Ask your boss for a meeting, and even if you need to have that piece of paper in front of you, make your point. You know, if you feel a certain way, rather than saying, "You, you, you, you, you make me feel, you did, you, you, you," I would turn that around and say, "When you say or do, I perceive it as," because what you're then doing is you're taking ownership of your feelings and you're very clearly drawing that path from "This is what happened, this is how I felt, and this is how I responded to it. What are we gonna do now to fix it?"Amy: Mm-hmm. And so really what you're describing is emotional intelligence, and, you know, in my experience I've found that I am the most emotionally intelligent when I am the least represented in the room, and I am probably the least emotionally intelligent when I am most represented in the room, and so I try--once I recognized that about myself, I try very hard to think about the dynamics of a meeting or the dynamics of a conversation and "Do I need to kind of practice some of those skills because I'm dominating and maybe running over someone who doesn't feel safe to speak up with me?" Right? And so I think that if we can all do our part, right, to recognize when maybe we've got a little bit more influence or a little bit more social power and kind of back off a little bit and make some space.Traci: Yeah, and there's actually power in being able to do that I think, right? I think that when your peers see you navigate let's say a contentious situation, you know, if everybody's on 15 on a scale of 1 to 10 and you're on maybe 7 and bring everybody down to where it can be resolved, then people are gonna look at you as a change agent, if you will. So I just think that that's powerful.Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And that's leadership, right? Leadership is getting everybody to a better place together. So no, I think that's great. In the time that we have left, I'd like to ask you to finish my sentence. First is "I feel included when ______."Traci: I feel included when I am able to express myself.Amy: Oh, I like that. And then the second part is "When I feel included, I ______."Traci: When I feel included, I'm able to include others.Amy: I love that. I love having people answer this, because everybody answers differently, and it's always powerful. So Traci feels included when she's allowed to express herself, and when she feels included, she is able to include others, and I don't know that there's anything more powerful than that, to be able to widen that circle and bring others in. So that's fantastic. Traci, thank you so much for your time today.Traci: Oh, it was my pleasure. I appreciate you so much.Amy: Oh, thank you very much.

For those not in the know, The Mars Agency is an independent agency that combines the best of technology with the best human intelligence to provide solutions to businesses throughout the world of retail and eCommerce. And one of the Martians who leads the charge at Mars is Amy Andrews, the SVP Business Development & eCommerce. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Amy walked us through all the trends she’s been seeing in the eCommerce industry, including the changing consumer behavior, the rise of omnichannel experiences, and why companies that can crack the code of using voice plus video technology could see a huge payoff. Key Takeaways: There is an opportunity to merge eCommerce and influencer content in order to make a more relevant and personalized shopping experience The amount of data in the eCommerce world is overwhelming and can lead to losing the humanity of the work, which Mars tries to avoid by having a blend of the best technology and the smartest humanity Voice shopping still hasn’t reached its tipping point, but there is data that shows that voice technology is growing in the world of eCommerce For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible eCommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, this is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org and your host of this lovely podcast. Today we're joined by Amy Andrews, SEP of business development and eCommerce at the Mars Agency. Amy, how are you? Amy: I'm doing well Stephanie, how are you doing? Stephanie: Doing great, yeah as great as can be. So, when I heard of the Mars Agency, I saw that you called your, was it your customers or your employees Martians? Amy: We call our employees Martians, very lovingly. Stephanie: Oh man, I love that. I was trying to think of a name I wanted to give our employees, but nothing comes close to that. Tell me a little bit about the Mars Agency and how all that came about. Amy: Sure. So the Mars Agency has been around for over 45 years, started by an amazing woman, Marilyn Barnett, and really our focus has been on marketing to shoppers over that last, almost half a century. And Marilyn was really a pioneer in this space, she used to be when she started kind of the grocery model who would hold the box of laundry detergent as people walked by. And really just, yeah, and talk about women in business. She was just such an interesting leader and saw that as a marketing opportunity for brands at retail, and started the Mars Agency. And we have a long history in shopper marketing, and shopper marketing is really just marketing to shoppers so, as that has evolved and how people shop has evolved, we followed them and led them to all those different places. Stephanie: Got it. So are you working with large brands to kind of teach them the trends in the industry and how to market to, like you said, the shoppers, is that how to think about the Mars Agency? Amy: Yep. We work with a lot of large consumer package good clients so, like Campbell Soup, Nestle Waters, several others across top retailers. So Walmart, Target, and for me in the eCommerce space, Amazon is definitely a huge player. Stephanie: Okay, cool. And what is your day to day look like there, what is your role look like? Amy: So I lead our eCommerce team, which I mentioned some of the retailers but we really work across all eCommerce retailers and digital platforms. If you think about things that some of you probably use more recently than others like Instacart and other delivery services. We help brands market to their shoppers in those spaces, and really anywhere that you can buy a product online. Which used to be physical stores would convert it online, or your kind of Amazon, Pure Play retailers, and now as I'm sure you've experienced definitely, there's a lot of different options to buy online as you're scrolling through. Instagram you can shop now and kind of always be almost we're moving towards one click away from a purchase in any environment so, that's really what my team focuses on, for our clients, how do we help them market and ultimately sell more online? Stephanie: Got it. Has everything with COVID-19 kind of adjusted your strategy of what you're advising your clients to do? Or what kind of shifts have you made when it comes to that advisory role? Amy: Yeah that's a great question. I think we have seen a lot of data as this, sadly continues for us. But it has definitely had a huge impact on the eCommerce space, particularly for grocery, since a lot of our clients are the CPG packaged clients. We've seen online grocery projections in the last couple of weeks reach what we thought they would be in 2025. So there's been, yeah huge growth in this space, and a lot of new users to this space so, we know that's out of necessity, but again as this kind of continues, we think that a lot of these people, like 60% of people tried a delivery service for the first time in the last six weeks. That's a ton of new people who are buying new groceries online and, yeah there's been a lot of experience as I'm sure you've heard with, not being able to find what you want, or having slow delivery time- Stephanie: Yeah. Being out of stock of my favorite matcha tea, very disappointing. Amy: Out of stock, yes. Which is a little bit easier to deal with than toilet paper but- Stephanie: Yeah, I guess. Amy: I guess it depends on where you are on both with your supply but, no we've had ... Yeah, a lot of people are having to make different choices and having to try things but as this continues, I think people are forming new habits, and even new preferences, so it's definitely influencing how we're advising our clients and where they should invest. I think what's also interesting is because of a lot of those issues, a lot of our clients and a lot of retailers have just put their marketing on pause, to make sure that they can get things in stock, and for retailers to make sure that they're not price scourging or kind of promoting things in the wrong way that would send the wrong message. Amy: So I think what will be interesting long term is, some retailers and brands kind of catch that, and once they have products in stock, once, even Amazon this week has fixed some of their Amazon Fresh delivery issues. As those things start getting worked out, I think they'll be a lot more interesting marketing opportunities, especially as you think about all those new users, either to a retailer or to a brand. I don't know if you bought a different tea brand when you couldn't find yours. Stephanie: I did, I did. Amy: Yeah, a lot of people are having that experience right, so then it's like how does that new brand try and keep you and then how does your old brand try and get you back? So we're definitely working with our clients on all those types of questions. Stephanie: Got it. Do you think clients should be turning off their marketing budgets? As you mentioned, a lot of them are doing that right now, do you think that's a good strategy, or should they till be maybe thinking of ways to experiment because this is a whole new world, it might be actually a good opportunity to kind of experiment a bit without offending people if possible? Amy: Yeah, no, I think ... Yeah, I think it is a bit of both. I think initially, not just marketing but a lot of businesses and industries, just kind of paused to figure out and make sense of what was going on and determine what they should do next. And I think that was, probably a smart move at the time, just to not make any rash decisions. But we're definitely partnering with our clients now on, what is the right way to market. I think one of the trends that we'll see is probably a lot more regional and geographic differences. Like we in the Bay Area are still sheltering in place for another month. So, online shopping here will be very different than other states that are opening up. Amy: And, marketing to those people might be very appropriate now, and I would definitely recommend testing and trying things in that space. Stephanie: Got it. Amy: So I think it's going to have to be a combination. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. Do you see the companies you work with coming to you with similar struggles? Like other themes that you're hearing and any advice around some of those struggles that they're experiencing? Amy: Yeah. I think a lot of the marketing struggles, or just some of the struggles on a more macro level of just the unknown, especially in terms of timing and how long it will continue. And then we kind of have some of the same issues in terms of data, you know there's so much out there, like when you turn on the news, you see so many different stories and different points, sometimes it's kind of hard to determine what are the right guidelines, or what's the right data that you should follow. So, we're really treating this as an ongoing conversation with our clients. And it does differ by geography, it does differ by category or industry. So, I think taking a really custom approach and being able to adapt now, and have a strategy where you're also able to easily adapt moving forward, is going to be really important. Amy: We typically do annual planning with our brands, and we've already been talking, you know we're already in the stages of re-planning but, I think re-planning will be something we do all year now, I don't think it's kind of the pre COVID plan and the post COVID plan, I think it's going to be continuing to adapt. And the brands and retailers that are able to evolve in that way are probably going to be the most successful. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. It seems like a good time to kind of pivot in certain areas, cut projects that aren't, maybe as necessary, and thinking in a completely new light based on everything that's happening. What kind of things do you see being cut or changes be made in these re-planning sessions at these companies? Amy: I mean, the big question now, which the Mars Agency is tackling with our clients is, what might come back in-store and what might not, in terms of marketing and planning around that? There's the kind of legal or even not legal, but kind of the official guidelines or restrictions side of things, in terms of how people shop and how many people can enter the store at what time. But then I think there's also a very real consumer behavior piece of it. So, one thing that has happened in stores and that a lot of our brands being food brands, we've done is, things around sampling and trying new products. And whether that's a cooked piece of food outside of a wrapper, or a sealed up new product, I think in both of those cases, I don't know if for myself, and if I think about other shoppers, I don't know how eager we're going to be to take either one of those samples now. Amy: So, we're trying to rethink things like that that have been really traditional vehicles to encourage trial, how do we think about that in a new way? Either if that's a re-plan in terms of, what do we do with those dollars and invest them in something else? Or what I think is maybe more creative and exciting is, how do we think about sampling in a new way? Or how do we think about demos in a new way? And that's where we really see the in-store and the eComm world kind of colliding, and really creating some of these omnichannel is the word that we use a lot. Stephanie: Yeah. Amy: Omnichannel experiences, so that we're moving towards that anyway, and I think COVID has been an interesting tipping point to, as you said, kind of pivot and think about these things, and push ourselves to think about them even more differently now, to deliver the best shopper experience. Stephanie: Yeah, it seems like it could be with everything bad that happened, maybe a good forcing function to kind of push some brands into the eCommerce world who maybe weren't fully utilizing it before, or not at all. Do you see them being able to adapt to some of these changes that you're recommending them or being able to shift something that they've always been focused on selling in-store, always focused on someone having that in-person experience, like you said, whether it's a sample, a demo, have you seen them be able to pivot on to eCommerce, or being open to that, or even having the technology to do it? Amy: Yeah. I mean I'm pretty optimistic, so I think yes, I think all brands can do this and adapt and pivot and do so relatively easily. I think that was a big question before all of this, and the crisis was just how quickly should each, brand based on their category, be moving into this space? And a lot of brands were over-invested in eCommerce because they felt that that was going to be the future so they're a bit of a step ahead. And that doesn't mean that other brands can't catch up but, I think COVID has just been a kind of internal tipping point for a lot of organizations to think about how they're treating eCommerce and maybe prioritizing it a little bit differently. Amy: So, yeah for brands or companies who weren't thinking about it before, I would definitely say, now's the time. And, because the whole industry and the whole world is really shaken up, it's a great time to think about how you're treating eCommerce differently, and then within the eCommerce space, what we can be doing differently there as well. Stephanie: Got it. Is there anyone that you ever looked to in the industry, where you maybe point your clients in that direction of being like, hey, here's an industry leader when it comes to the checkout experience, or the shopping experience, or the unboxing, or anything like that? Anyone that you guys kind of look to as like a leader in the space? Amy: Yeah, that's a great question. I think there are a lot of examples of brands or retailers doing, I would say pieces of the puzzle really well. The one that comes to mind for me as someone who is creating a really holistic, best in class experience, is actually a retailer. I think IKEA does a phenomenal job in this space, in terms of just digital experiences. They have different digital technologies, and apps and platforms, and AI, and all of that, that is really just helping recreate the experience of going to an enormous, huge physical retail destination, I mean, I can't think of a more traditional shopping experience than kind of browsing through those huge displays in IKEA. Stephanie: So many levels, at least here in Palo Alto. Amy: Yes, definitely. I think of like a huge retail footprint that they've had to translate into a digital experience. There's one now where instead of IKEA saying, what's the best .com site or digital catalog? They are thinking what's the best shopping experience? And now you can as a shopper, walk through an IKEA store, through virtual reality, and pick different products, and then also using AI to see them in your own bedroom. So I think they've just done a great- Stephanie: Oh wow, that's awesome. Amy: ... Job. Yeah, I think I've just done a great job of thinking about it a little bit differently, and kind of doing it in a fun way that that's the biggest piece for myself as a shopper as well, that's sometimes missing from the online shopping experience. It's so convenient, and there are so many wonderful, wonderful benefits that come along with that. But you do lose kind of the fun of shopping, and browsing around, and I think IKEA has done a nice job of bringing some of that physical experience in a fun, very branded IKEA way, to their shoppers digitally. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. I think sometimes people forget that it's not just shopping and trying to buy the thing, but really, like when I go to IKEA, it's my day. It's a whole experience, I'm ready, I'm prepared, I've had my snack, and I'm ready to go through every single setup area to like look at their bedroom, and see how they set it up, and look at this living room setup and incorporating VR into that shows that they know exactly why their customers, at least customers like me come there, is to be able to experience it like I'm actually there. So yeah, that's great. Are you advising other companies to kind of, not only think that way but maybe moving into technologies like that, that they weren't utilizing before? Whether it's VR, or AR, or any of that kind of stuff? Amy: Yes. And I would say just even more broadly, we're advising our clients, and working with a lot of our clients right now on, how do we create the best digital content that's going to be relevant for an eCommerce shopping experience? So, yes that could be an amazing VR IKEA type experience, or that could be a six-second video on a product page, that tells you exactly what you need to know about the benefits of this new water that you're drinking. So I think it's about, what's right for those different brands and, then having that content strategy that then dictates what technology you might need to use to deliver it. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah, I definitely see that shift of a lot of companies, brands, turning into kind of their own media companies when it comes to producing their content, and focusing heavier on that, and not just on a paid strategy where maybe that's been, how it's been for a couple of years. Amy: Yeah, I think I've also seen brands, hopefully, using technology to deliver experience instead of just kind of using or testing, technology for technology's sake, or to have something new. So, it used to be QR codes, and then maybe some AR that just, is just kind of there for the fun, cool factor, that's interesting. In some cases, it's kind of fun, but I think if you're just doing it for the tech's sake, and it doesn't deliver a consumer, or a shopper benefit, it's really a fad and kind of dies quickly. So, we're always trying to think about, what's the need first, and then what can we use to deliver against that? Stephanie: Yeah, it's good to flip that mindset when it comes to that, because yeah I can think of, especially QR code, that's a good example. I've seen random places it's on there, like a cereal box or something that delivers no value, and I don't actually want to even see what's behind that QR code, it seems like it was just placed there because everyone was doing it. So- Amy: Right someone told that- Stephanie: ... You definitely- Amy: ... Told that marketer, "You need a QR code." And they checked that box. Stephanie: They did it. Amy: Yeah. Stephanie: Have you, when it comes to content, I know a lot of brands right now like you said, are focused on that and trying to make sure they get, of course, new customers in that vertical, and also make sure they put out great content. Have you seen any best practices with their clients around like you said, short product videos seem to really increase conversions where you know, like something on YouTube, if you've never been on YouTube maybe isn't the best way to go? Is there any themes around that? Amy: Yeah. I would say generally we always start with what's going to be the right message for the type of media, or for the type of tactics. So, you mentioned YouTube, that's obviously a very different format than say Pinterest, who's also having quite a moment with everyone at home looking for inspiration and recipes, and all of that. Obviously, that type of content you would develop for that would be very relevant to our brands, but also relevant to that platform and what we know people are looking for there. Yeah, I think we're definitely moving towards kind of more bite-size, or smaller content formats, in general. So definitely short format, we always give the example of, you don't want to have your 30 second or 67, 60 second, excuse me, TV spot and just use that everywhere, on your eCommerce sites or on your digital media more broadly, we want to be tailoring it for the environment. Amy: I think another thing that we're trying to do a lot more of now, in terms of a trend, is how are we leveraging influencer and user-generated content in a new way? So, if we talk about relevancy, especially in the eComm world where reviews are so important, and the new mom, you might go on and you're testing the reviews of a stroller, or a really important product for your baby more than you trust advice from your own parent, or from your mom peer group even right? So, people play a ton of influence on that, especially in the eComm space. So, thinking about how we merge eCommerce and influencers, has been really interesting and we've been working with our clients on taking influencer content from a particular shopper since we're in that space. Amy: So, how do you leverage Walmart influencer content on walmart.com, and Amazon influencer content on their site? And in doing so, you create an even more relevant experience for the shopper, because not only do they have those product details and reviews, but you've kind of put all that influencer content in one place, so they can have more ideas on how to use your products, or just more relevant images and messages based on people like them. Stephanie: Yeah, that completely makes sense. I wonder if right now, with how the market is, if it'll kind of give the wrong signals to companies. Like maybe, you have all these people at home so, if you see content is very easy to get right now, you have people maybe at home who actually want the longer podcast and the longer clips. Whereas after all this starts to calm down, I wonder if it'll be hard for brands to kind of pivot again, if all that reverses. And, all of a sudden there's not many consumers who want to create content for free anymore, and long reviews and, people want those shorter clips, like you talked about. Do you see any problems coming up by brands acting too quickly right now, to kind of pivot to what the environment is now? To then it reversing maybe again in a month or six months. Amy: Yeah, I think that's a good question, and that's why I think, as I kind of mentioned earlier, we're taking a proactive but kind of cautious approach. So, one thing we did for one of our brands was, we just went out immediately and pulled out content that, I don't want to say offensive, because that's almost too strong of a word, but pulled out content that wasn't culturally sensitive. For example, a group of people in a home that was more than 10 people. Stephanie: Got it. Amy: We went in and took all of that content down, you know, just to make sure we were being sensitive, and we were also being relevant. Even if someone wasn't particularly upset about it, and maybe they had no thought on it, but we want to make sure we're giving them the most relevant message of how our brand can be used in their lives. So I think that it is going to be an evolution, it's going to be really interesting to see kind of what behaviors stick. I think bread makers was one of the top terms searched on Amazon, the last several weeks. So, I wonder if we're going to get burnt out on making bread anytime soon. Stephanie: That does sound delightful but I'm like, yeah, I don't know how long that trend will last because, my mother-in-law makes bread, and man is it a process. Amy: Well, maybe she needs a bread maker. Stephanie: I know, she does. Amy: But yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see how much of those are kind of the COVID trends that then people get sick of it, or people want to, I'm not sure, maybe people will want to race back to the stores like you said, it'll be maybe really exciting when an IKEA opens, and you can go back in, and browse around and get your meatballs and all that. And I'm thinking people are going to do that in a different way. And I think that we're going to have to continue to evolve. So, that's what I mentioned about the kind of planning, I think annual planning is dead. I think we're going to be planning over and over again, if that's monthly if we can get kind of more on a routine, or maybe that's just continuous as things change, and as the news changes. Stephanie: Yep, completely agree. So, the Mars Agency has been around for almost 50 years I think, how does the company and the Martians of the company, recognize trends and then act on it quick enough to help your clients? Amy: Yeah, I think, I honestly think that's why we have been able to be around so long. In the marketing and advertising world, we're one of the few independents who's left, we're still family-run, the company is now run by Marilyn's son and Ken Barnett. And I think that having that independence, and having really just a lot of still that entrepreneurial spirit, has allowed us to really adapt as the industry has adapted and, in most cases kind of stay one step ahead. We talk a lot about our Martians, as you said, and really think that there's a balance between, our people and our technology. So, over the years we've, of course, as most industries have invested more in technology and data, and all of that, we've also really balanced that with our Martians and having, what we say is the latest technology and the smartest humanity. Amy: I think some companies, especially in the eCommerce space, because there's so much data there, and so many different tech platforms, I think if you go too far in that direction, well one, there can just be kind of data overload, and you're not able to find the insights and all the data. But two, I think you just lose a lot of that humanity, and kind of that person who we like to be who's saying, "Well, why is that the case? And, what does that data point mean?" And kind of taking it that step deeper, so that we can really understand what the human behavior is because I think that's where you have the best marketing ideas that really resonate with people, instead of just kind of trying to attack a data point. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. Are there certain metrics or data points that you've seen many brands use that you're like, you guys are all using this, but it actually doesn't really tell you much. Instead, maybe you should look at this instead. Amy: Well, because we're focused on shopper marketing and conversion, I mean, our ultimate data point is always sales. So we're always looking at, how many products were we able to sell as a result. Along with that though, you obviously want to understand what other impact you might have had on engagement. Or, in some cases, there are other circumstances that are affecting sales that are out of our control. We, of course, want to measure all the other media metrics as well. I think to answer your question on, are there certain metrics that brands are looking at that they shouldn't? I don't know if I would say you shouldn't look at this, but I think a lot of brands are placing a disproportionate kind of weight in the eCommerce based on their ROAS or their return on ad spend. Amy: And there's just some interesting ... There are some ways that you can get a very high ROAS, and that a lot of media companies or retailers will say, you had a very high ROAS and it's typically because you are reaching people who would have purchased anyway. So I think that's one where, it does beg the question of sometimes having a person or maybe a smarter data set that's kind of suggesting, why is that the case? And digging a little bit deeper to understand the why behind that metric. Stephanie: Yeah, that seems like an easy way for someone to be like, hey, look how great those ads doing when you're like, all those people were already previous customers so. Amy: Right if you're ... Yes, if you're targeting past purchasers, you can typically get a pretty high ROAS so. Stephanie: Yeah, that's pretty funny. Are there any new emerging technologies that you're advising marketers to look at or other like eCommerce platforms that you're telling people to check out? Amy: I don't know if I would say this is an emerging technology, but just in light of all of the changes around COVID, I would say looking more at new delivery platforms or channels. And this is something that, we're just having early conversations with our clients on now. But, there are a lot of what used to be in the world of retail, relatively niche players You see a lot of those platforms having really explosive growth now, kind of during this COVID period. So it'll be interesting to see how that behavior might change over time. Amy: I think we're also seeing some really interesting partnerships, so you can have your 7-Eleven order delivered by DoorDash. Or you can make a reservation to shop at a local store on OpenTable. Again, those aren't new technologies, but I think it's kind of new platforms and new channels that will be really interesting to test and learn as we go, as you're suggesting, and then also as things, hopefully at some point, kind of start to normalize. Stephanie: Yeah, cool. And then how do you think about, I saw on your website that you were talking about getting the most out of voice technology and how to conquer Amazon? Do you think, I know voice technology, it feels like it's been trying to ... It's been like that up and up for a while and no one's really cracked it. Even when I was at Google, it still felt like they couldn't crack it. How do you think about incorporating that into what your clients are doing? And same with Amazon as well? Amy: Yeah, that's a great question and you nailed it. I think it has been growing, we have on my eCommerce team, a dedicated voice specialist has a background in user experience. And, similarly, I think we've had tons of great conversations around voice, we've seen tons of great data in terms of how it's growing, but I don't think we've reached the tipping point yet of voice shopping. I think it's still, some of the data and it'll be interesting again, to see kind of how this being at home more might change that. But, there are definitely different behaviors that have grown with voice more than shopping has. We're still actively pursuing and exploring that with our clients. Mars is the preferred Alexa developer, we also work with Google Voice as you mentioned. Amy: But I think it just comes back to, really the foundation of what we do which is, how can we create better shopper experiences, and voice definitely has the technology to do that. I think it's just about the adoption, especially in the shopping space. So to date, we've worked with our clients on, creating skills that can be useful to shoppers based on their different categories. But I think it'll be interesting to maybe see how COVID changes the voice space as well. Stephanie: Yeah, I could see that becoming useful, especially as the catalogs get bigger of what the brands are putting on their eCommerce sites. It'll be easier if you're able just to tell the website like, I want to find this, instead of having to go through the whole catalog and try and find exactly what you want, and it probably growing by 50% from the time you were there maybe two months ago if they can crack, getting the voice technology to actually work and be seamless, and not an extra step. Amy: Yeah. And then I think another thing that'll be interesting now is just, I even have to remind myself as we're talking because typically we think voice and we think, speaking into the speaker, but with the combination of voice and video. Plus people being at home and maybe wanting more, we know there's been a huge surge in recipe searches for example. I think having the voice plus visual is a different way that brands should be thinking about voice now, and something that we're working with some of our clients on. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. And what about the conquering Amazon piece? I'm only thinking about how that maybe has shifted a lot, especially lately because of everything Amazon is doing of like, only surfacing maybe essential things, and changing shipping times, and maybe kind of burying certain retailers if they didn't view them as essential. I could see a lot of people kind of getting scared about relying on Amazon as their platform to sell from, and maybe moving away from that and trying to build their own eCommerce store on their own, and just do their own thing. Do you see that kind of happening? Or what are your thoughts around Amazon? Amy: Yeah I mean, Amazon could probably be a whole nother topic or hour. Stephanie: A whole podcast one. Amy: Exactly, I'm sure there are millions. But, I think in terms of, we've been really digging into what has this last six or so weeks meant? And where have we seen new growth? Walmart.com in March was the number one downloaded app in the grocery space and surpassed Amazon for the first time. So, it's interesting to kind of see all these stats and you think, oh, maybe Amazon isn't as important. Amazon just still dominates the eCommerce space. Which is why you mentioned, we have it on our website. I would say even as of two months ago, people were using Amazon and eComm interchangeably, almost. Amy: So, it's great and it's exciting to see that, and as we have always advised our clients, we should think about this holistically across this space and across all different retailer dot-coms and delivery platforms like your eCommerce strategy should be comprehensive. But I don't see Amazon ever not being a component of that, at least not in the near future. There are a lot of issues now from a user experience, from a shopping experience, also as you mentioned with brands and maybe being deprioritized for essentials or not being able to market in the way that they have been able to before. But it still really is the lion's share, it's still seeing the most growth during this time period. Amy: So it's not, I don't think it's a place that brands can afford not to be, with the exception of maybe a couple of the really big ones. But I think the idea of trying to tackle eCommerce without Amazon, or without having a strategy around Amazon, and there's by the way, a bunch of different ways that you can do that, it definitely doesn't have to be every brand's number one eCommerce retailer. But I think it probably has to be part of the strategy, just because of the number of shoppers that are using that as their primary eCommerce destination. Stephanie: Yeah, agree. So earlier we were talking about brands creating content, how do you think about the intersection, or what do you advise your clients when it comes to the intersection of content management system, their commerce platform, and their CRM? How do you see that working in their space are any best practices around that or advice? Amy: Yeah, I think, I mean one is to be thinking about the total experiences we've been talking about, and making sure that, no matter what agencies or, in our case, we're oftentimes working with a lot of other agencies either at different parts of the funnel or that the brand is working with for different pieces of their advertising. A lot of our clients are large enough that they're hiring multiple agencies. So I think it's, having IT as planning processes that are very integrated, and making sure you're connecting all the different partners so that you can leverage all of the different content and all of the different wonderful assets. Amy: In terms of, what should the content strategy be, I think it comes back to, what's going to be best and what's going to be needed and relevant for the shopper in that environment. So, we're really working with our brands in the eCommerce space on, how are you creating eComm content that typically doesn't always exist in other brand channels? So, how are you creating content for your product pages with information that people need to know when they're at that point of buying you versus buying a competitor. If you don't have that right content, let's create it, we help our clients map that out on what's needed in terms of assets, and videos, and enhanced content, and all of that. Amy: And then really track that over time to make sure that we're constantly optimizing it. We have a new technology, an eShelf maximizer tool that uses data to look across different websites, and identify across thousands of skews for a lot of our brands, what product pages might have some issues or some areas of opportunity, and then we can fix those right away. And with the retailer's constantly changing their algorithms and limitations, and all of that. This is kind of a huge pain point for our brands so, even though we'll optimize content as brands change their packaging, or new products launch, there's kind of continual issues and continued opportunities to optimize. So we're using technology to make sure that we can stay ahead of that and be really proactive for our brands. Stephanie: Got it. Do you see them being able to kind of manage that in a way that stays organized? Because, I kind of view a lot of brands having their content management as one silo, and their CRMs another one, and their commerce platforms another one, it doesn't seem like they've been able to integrate like, well, here's how our content is affecting our customers and actual conversions. Do you see that kind of shifting now? Or are a lot of your brands already ahead and they're already kind of all intertwined, and they got it? Amy: Oh, I wish that was the case. No, I think, I mean, I think we have silos within the Mars Agency, I think most companies have silos, I think most of our clients would say that they have silos within their companies as well. Unfortunately, I think that is a reality so I don't want to gloss over that picture too much. I think it's about, how do you look for ways to work and collaborate across those silos, for more of a common goal? So, I think eComm has been a silo for a lot of brands today. We've kind of siloed it off and said, let's deal with that separately because we don't quite know what to do with it, or maybe it's still a little bit too new for our brand or company. Amy: And this is really a moment when I think we can be integrating it in, we certainly have done that at Mars. Our team is now integrated with our customer development team. So when we're working on a Walmart plan, it's not the Walmart in-store plan and the walmart.com plan, we're all one team. So I think hopefully, that would be an outcome of this time period is kind of breaking down some of the eCommerce silos. But I think as you pointed out, there's definitely still an opportunity for, I would say most brands, to kind of better connect. I think content and eComm are coming together much more naturally. I think CRM is still a piece that we could, as an industry, probably better connect to some of the other pieces. Stephanie: Yep, completely agree. Have you seen, like what do you think the first step is to that digital transformation? Or have you seen a company really do it well? Is it like start from scratch, throw everything away and start over? Or, how have you seen that work? Amy: I think that actually, most companies have kind of, that we've worked with, have kind of taken eComm out and brought it back in, or taking the digital team out and brought it back in. And I think that's actually an okay approach in terms of, especially where you are with your company's growth in this space, some kind of half joking that eComm has been a silo. But, in a way that's been necessary for some companies because, as eCommerce has grown, it typically starts off as an add on within a current team, and then as it grows, it kind of gets its own silo, or its own little team on the side, and then as they get big enough, they come back into the integrated team, typically the marketing team, or in some cases, the sales team. Amy: And I think that that makes sense because, as the space grows for different clients, it needs different resources. I think a lot of companies are going to be fast tracking that now, so they might skip that step of having the separate eCommerce team and just automatically integrate it. I don't think that's a bad thing, I think that could be beneficial to, instead of kind of separating it or starting from scratch, just integrating in from the team from the beginning. Stephanie: Yeah, that makes sense. That sounds like good advice. So, do you see any disruptions coming to eCommerce? Like one thing I've been paying close attention to, or reading up a bit is about these pop up retail stores. And I think maybe that could be a trend that a lot of retail stores are closing down right now, and people might be scared to actually set up locations for 10 year leases, after all this dies down. So I'm wondering how maybe that could influence the future of retail and eCommerce. Do you see any disruptions like that that is on the horizon that you guys are looking into when it comes to eCommerce? Amy: Yeah. I mean I think there's going to continue to be a lot of disruptions, and probably a fast tracking of what would have happened anyway. So, some, as we've seen in the last several years, some really established big box retailers have closed down, or shut several of their locations, because that huge size of space didn't make sense anymore, and to your point that frees up space for other types of retailer formats. I think coming out of this that, one of the disruptions will be, what we go to a physical store for, versus what we continue to buy online. So I think there's going to be a lot of differences in those categories, and even in in subcategories within that. I think what's going to be interesting about the physical stores is just, how do we deliver an experience in those stores that is worth kind of leaving your house for? Amy: And I think some of the best retailers, and some of the best brands have been talking about that for years, right? How do we create a physical experience of our brand? If you think of like the flagship stores, that's meant to be bringing the brand to life and delivering on that experience, and then you think of retailers who have been improving their in store experience, to get people to browse other categories, or browse other sections. I think a lot of that was a trend that will now really be pushed and challenged, and fast tracked as we rethink about what that physical space means to a shopper. So, pop ups, as you mentioned, were great because they were delivering a different experience and that was a reason to go, see something new, or maybe see something that you could only buy there. Amy: I think exclusives will probably continue and be played around with in a new way in terms of what's exclusive online versus in store. But I think it's a little early to tell what disruptions are going to continue, and how people are going to use those physical spaces. I mentioned it earlier, but I could also see there being a big difference in geographies. The coasts have always been a little different anyway, but I could see the the retail experience on the coasts being a little bit slower to change at first, and then probably having more disruptions in the end. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. I can see also when they start streamlining the return process, I've already started see that at least with Amazon, where it's like, you don't even have to bring a box now or anything, just bring the good back there. Once that starts feeling easier, it seems like a lot of things could shift because, to me that's been the biggest hang up of ordering things online and, not knowing how to really return it, and not knowing if I'm going to feel like doing it, and keeping the box, and printing out the label and all that stuff. It seems like that could be a big shift too, and it's kind of already been forced that way over the past couple months. Amy: Yeah, no, that's a great example of now people are having to get creative in how they do things, both retailers and shoppers. And also, just as you try things and get used to it, you might realize that the return process wasn't as bad as you thought. Or the delivery window that your groceries came was actually more convenient than what you'd wanted before. So, I think some of those habits are going to change, which is always interesting to see, because now we're still in kind of the survey phase of, what do you predict that you're going to do? Or will you use this service again? And it's always interesting of course, to see what people say versus what they actually do. Stephanie: Yeah. Amy: And I think just over time as we all keep doing this, we could say, we hate it and it's a pain. But some of that we're going to be adopting those new habits that will stick with us in the longer term. Stephanie: Yeah that'll be really interesting to see what actually comes from that. So before we move into our lightning round, is there any other thoughts you have for eCommerce leaders or trends or anything else you want to highlight? Amy: No, I think you've covered it. I mean, I think this is just such an interesting time for the eCommerce space that, if you talk to someone else next week, they might say something different, and that's what's kind of exciting about it is watching how quickly it's changing, and just really being able to adapt quickly to stay relevant. Stephanie: Yeah, that's why this podcast is so fun. All right. So the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where you answer each question in a minute or less. So you have a minute, you don't have to rush too much, but it's kind of whatever comes top of mind. Sound good? Amy: Great. Stephanie: All right, I'll start with the easier ones first, and then move to the harder one towards the end. What's Up next on your Netflix queue? Amy: Oh, this is the lightning round. Let's see. Stephanie: When your eight month old and three year old aren't hanging on you. Amy: Exactly. I have to move into my adult entertainment mode which also doesn't sound like the right phrase to use, so that shows that I've been watching a lot of cartoons lately. Stephanie: No more Daniel Tiger for you. Amy: I know I'm just glad that I can get off Disney Plus and over to Netflix. We are big fans of Nailed It, and with the at home baking, I know I'm a season behind on nailed it, so I need to get caught up on that. Stephanie: Cool. What's up next in your travel destinations after the pandemic is over? Amy: Oh, we were supposed to go to Vienna for my husband's 40th, so hopefully we can get that back on the agenda. But, next week I'm going to be driving from the Bay Area to Aspen to see my new niece so- Stephanie: Oh fun. Amy: It will be a road trip. Stephanie: Sounds awesome. What is the best shopping experience that comes to mind that you've had lately? Other than being in a store? Amy: Yes, I have not been in a store lately, nor had a good experience in a store lately. Well, just this week was the first time that I could get an Amazon Fresh order, and I am a pretty heavy user. So they had a lot of issues, so I was really excited this morning at 7:00 AM when my Amazon Fresh order arrived. Stephanie: Yeah, that's game changing. I love seeing them come up and deliver it. I'm like, this is nice. Not having to do it. Amy: Yes. Stephanie: What was the last thing you bought from an ad? If you remember? Amy: The last thing I bought from an ad. That wasn't one of my clients products? Stephanie: Yes, yep, that wasn't one of your clients [inaudible 00:51:31]. Amy: Yes, that I was actually buying as a consumer, let's see. I bought some Hannah Andersen Star Wars pajamas recently for my three year old. They're very cute and available now and actually they did arrive quite quickly so. Stephanie: Awesome- Amy: I'd recommend that for the- Stephanie: ... For PJ's. Amy: Yes for the toddler PJ's, they are great. Stephanie: Yep, I know all about that. All right, and the hard one, what's up next for eCommerce pros? Amy: Oh, that's a big switch from PJ. Stephanie: I know, that's why I saved it for last. Amy: Yeah, I think eCommerce pros are going to be ... Have much higher regard in their own industries, and have a lot more influence. So, hopefully what's next for them is being able to kind of take a greater role in that brand and marketing experience across retailers. I know we've talked a lot about Amazon, but I think it's, how do we integrate eCommerce and into everything that we're doing, and that should be really exciting for the eComm pros. Stephanie: Cool. Love it. All right thanks so much for coming on the show Amy, this has been fun. Amy: Thank you so much. Appreciate you having me.

On the twelfth entry of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger speaks with OJ Gordon about his entering the real estate industry from the insurance industry and the unique role he's taking on in doing so. OJ also suggests that people interested in getting started or learning more about the industry look into getting involved with the local chapter of their National Real Estate Investors Association (REIA). Check out the show notes to find out more!Click here to find your local National REIA chapter.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every now and then we try to mix it up for y'all. So look, dependency and consistency is really important, but even within those lanes of consistency, you gotta have a little bit of variety, you know what I mean? You don't come home and just eat the same thing every day, or even if you do--you know, you got a meal prep thing--maybe sometimes you put a little red sauce. Maybe sometimes you put a little green sauce. You know, you gotta just, you know, mix it up from time to time. Maybe sometimes you grill it. Maybe sometimes you saute. Maybe sometimes you rotisserie. You gotta just--am I hungry? Yes, I'm hungry, y'all. My bad. Listen, check it out. We have another entry for y'all from our See It to Be It series. Amy C. Waninger, CEO of Lead at Any Level as well as the author of Network Beyond Bias, she's actually been a member of the team for a while now, so shout-out to you, Amy. Yes, thank you very much for all of your work here. And part of her work has been in driving this series called See It to Be It, and the purpose of the series is to actually highlight black and brown professionals in these prestigious roles, like, within industries that maybe we--and when I say we I mean black and brown folks, I see y'all--may not even know exist or envision ourselves in, hence the name of the series, right? So check this out. We're gonna go ahead and transition from here. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and a super dope professional. I know y'all are gonna love it. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Hi, OJ. Thank you so much for joining me today.OJ: Hey, thank you for having me. Glad to be here.Amy: Oh, it's great talking to you again. So you're one of my Network Beyond Bias success stories because you and I met at my very first ever industry conference when we were both in Hawaii for the CPCU conference, and you were part of my "I'm gonna talk to three people today if it kills me" program, and we were both sitting front and center at a big session, and I think I turned to you and said, "Hi, you're sitting front and center too. We should probably talk," or something really dorky like that, and then we became friends from that. So you were one of the people that I kind of collected at that conference just because I forced myself to talk, and I'm so glad I did.OJ: And I'm glad you did as well, absolutely.Amy: Well, thank you. So we're gonna talk today about your entering the real estate industry--and the role that you're taking on is a little unique from what most people think of in terms of real estate, so can you tell me first what it is that you do, who you help and how you help them?OJ: Sure, absolutely. So my primary focus is helping people who have real estate problems. So folks who have repairs that they can't make at their home. They have code liens, tax liens, debt that they can't pay off, or for whatever reason they need to get out of the home that they're in and they don't have a solution that traditional real estate can help [?]. So for whatever reason they can't put this house up on the market. They can't make a profit selling that house on the market. Planning unique solutions to help them get to where they want to be.Amy: And so this is--like I said, it's kind of a special situation that you're creating, a special opportunity that you're creating for yourself. Can you tell me how you got involved in this and sort of what about it appealed to you?OJ: Yeah, absolutely. So as you know I work in insurance, and there are many times where you run into a situation where there's something not covered by a policy, and that could be a $10,000, $15,000, $100,000 problem, and when someone has an issue like that and they're not able to get financing or fix the problem, you know, it becomes a safety issue where they're living in a home that's potentially unsafe, they're living in a situation where, you know, no one should be living, and I got into insurance because I wanted to help people, and for the most part we can. There are tons of things that are covered, but in those situations where something isn't covered and, you know, there are people who feel helpless, they don't know what to do, and I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to [?]. So I started looking into different solutions, and I actually met a couple real estate investors who were like, "What? That's exactly what we're looking for." I was like, "Why would you want this house that has, you know, $30,000 worth of damage? There's a mortgage on it. There's all these issues," and they were like, "This is exactly the situation that we're looking for. We want to help people who are in these situations, because we want to get them living somewhere safe, and we want to take that home and put in a position where someone can live in it again." So it just really appealed to me. You get the opportunity to help people. You kind of get to be thrifty and take something that was broken and fix it, and just, for those reasons, this industry really appeals to me.Amy: That's fantastic. So I recently moved into a new home about three years ago, and it had a lot of problems that we weren't anticipating. You know, we knew it would need a new roof for example. We didn't know that within the first year of ownership we were gonna lose our water heater, our HVAC system, our sump pump, you know, and have problems with some other things, and so I can see how very easily, even without, like, a traditional insurable loss--like, you know, there was no fire, there was no flood, right, it was just wear and tear on a house that had not been maintained for 20 years--and, you know, it was expensive, and we were already sort of maxed out on the mortgage, and so, you know, we had to kind of take out a second mortgage. It's really embarrassing to say, but we had to take out a second mortgage to pay for, you know, several thousands of dollars worth of repairs to a house so we could live in it, 'cause you can't live in a house in Indiana without heat, right? You can't live in a house in Indiana, you know, that's leaking carbon dioxide into your house. So, like, we had real problems, and people don't have a lot of reserves. A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck. I know that's been my situation for most of my life. You know, it's really easy to get upside down really fast, not just in your mortgage but in your monthly expenses, and then to have somebody who can come in and say, "Hey, I can help with this." You know, "You're not gonna be homeless. You're not gonna lose money on your house." I can see where that would be a really welcome message for folks who are struggling or who are concerned about those things, because I can see how, you know, just a lot of people are just a few thousand dollars from disaster. I know I've been there many times in my life.OJ: Absolutely.Amy: So it's wonderful what you're doing. So what's something--I know you have already alluded to this a little bit, but what's been the biggest surprise to you about this industry? Something that you weren't expecting when you first got into it?OJ: So actually, the thing that surprised me most was, you know, you hear about real estate investors and you're like, "Oh, they're these slimy people and, you know they're just trying to make a quick buck and, you know, they're gonna offer you way less than what your house is worth," and that's kind of the stigma, and there are a few bad people who do those kinds of things, but for the most part everyone I've come across has really just wanted to help people. You know, whether it was me first getting into the industry and wanting to learn, people were willing to take the time out of their day to explain things to me, to walk me through processes. Their main focus is not how much money I've made, it's how many people did I help, and I think when you can go to bed at night knowing that your main focus is how many people we can help, you can sleep well, and it really kind of changed this thing in my mind. I was thinking, "Oh, man, I'm gonna be one of these slimy real estate investors," and really it's not that. You know, there are many times where a person doesn't need a real estate investor. They just need a real estate agent or, you know, they don't need either one of those things. They need help managing their cash flows, right? They're just spending too much on their discretionary spending, and that's taking away from their needs. And just being able to have those conversations--like, I went and got my real estate license also so that I could help those folks who need, you know, a traditional solution. And, you know, I partnered with some credit repair and some budgeting specialists who can talk to people about money management and focusing on taking care of their needs before going out and, you know, spending on things that they want, and that's really been able to help people, and it's just an amazing feeling knowing, "Hey, you know, I might not have made any money today doing this real estate investing, but I've helped someone, and this thing that I've done is gonna benefit them and it's gonna benefit their kids for years to come."Amy: That is wonderful. And it's always a shame to me when somebody says, "I was surprised by how nice people are," or how much people want to help, because we--I think so many industries have a bad reputation, right, that people are only out for themselves, you know, they're snakes in the grass and they're just waiting to attack, you know, and I have found too, as I've shifted my career a few times now, that there are always people willing to help. If your heart's in the right place--and you do have to be careful about it, right? Because there are some people who are out there looking to take advantage, but I would say probably 99% of the people that I've met at different stages of my career, when I'm ready to take on something new or make a jump or learn about something new, 99% of the people I meet are genuinely helpful, genuinely want to have a positive impact and, you know, show me something that will help me move forward. OJ: Right, and I've been fortunate to come across those people and really--in the real estate industry you kind of hear, you know, it's cutthroat, and I have not encountered that. I'm really--maybe I've been lucky. Maybe this is just the norm. But I've been fortunate to meet people who are genuinely interested in helping me to develop, helping me to learn what I needed to know so that I could help more people.Amy: That's fantastic. So if somebody's not in real estate today and they're interested in getting started or learning more, what resources are available to them or where would you suggest that they start?OJ: Sure. I would suggest find the local chapter of the National REIA. Here in Orlando there's CFRI, Central Florida Real Estate Investors. It's a nonprofit group that focuses on real estate investment education, you know? There's an ethics course that you have to go through, and it's really designed to help real estate investors who are starting off in the business start making the right decisions for the right reasons and to be well-informed, and it's a great way to just network and meet with people who have been in the industry for a very long time, meet people who have just started, and kind of be able to pick their brains and partner with them and figure out how you can come together to find solutions for folks. So definitely get involved with the local chapter of your national REIA.Amy: And REIA is a Real Estate Investors Association? REIA.OJ: Right. Correct.Amy: Okay. And so just to be clear about this, you didn't take--I'm gonna pick on Trump University. You didn't take a Trump University $30,000 real estate course to figure out how to do this, right? You went and talked to people who were really doing this every day who are in it for the right reasons, who are highly ethical and willing to help you without thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in investment. Is that correct?OJ: Absolutely correct, and don't think that you have nothing to offer, right? So my background is in insurance, right? Well, if you're buying homes you need insurance, so knowing about the insurance industry--and, you know, I've been an adjuster and I've been writing estimates, so I have, you know, building [trades?] knowledge, and, you know, bringing whatever you have from whatever it is you do can benefit you, right? Like if you're an accountant, well, you're gonna need to be able to keep track of a lot of moving parts and a lot of numbers, so that's a skill that's needed. You know, if you work with your hands--if you're an electrician or a plumber or a carpenter, these are skills that are needed to get these homes up to code and make them safe for people. So, you know, having that trade knowledge is something that's tremendously beneficial. So this isn't limited to, you know, white collar jobs, blue collar jobs, anyone can do this. Amy: That's excellent, and I love that message, that you bring what you have and you find a way to contribute and people are there to help you and guide you and partner with you along the way.OJ: Absolutely. Amy: And, you know, that builds such a sense of community in an industry, when you know that you can't know everything, right? The accountant is probably not gonna be the plumbing guy also or, you know, vice versa. So I think that's a wonderful message, and I think it's important for people to realize that so many skills are transferable from one industry to another, and it sounds like this is an industry where maybe more than usual skills are transferable in.OJ: Absolutely. Amy: That's wonderful. So what are your thoughts on where this is headed in the future? Is this industry gonna need more people, or do you see this as a short-term set of problems that maybe in five to ten years will sort of take care of itself? Like, what do you see as the talent needs going forward? OJ: So just like the market is cyclical, the real estate investing needs are cyclical, and so this isn't something that's going away. People need to live somewhere. Anyone can come across a real estate problem. Like, when I bought this house, Matthew hit in Florida and destroyed, you know, pretty much everything in my backyard, and I did not realize how expensive fencing could be.Amy: And you're an insurance guy. You should know how expensive fencing can be, OJ. Come on! [laughs]OJ: And so I had a huge lot, right--the house sits on a third of an acre, and most of it is the backyard, so I was actually deployed helping folks who had damages at their home and I find out "Hey, you know, your fence is down," and I have a pool so I can't leave holes in the fence because that is a huge liability issue. So I called around to get some folks to kind of get me an estimate, and the first guy called back and said, "You have 321 linear feet of fence and two gates," and I just knew. I was like, "Oh, man. This is terrible," and, you know, he quoted me a price, and, you know, if it hadn't been a catastrophe, that was not something that I would have been able to do. And so, you know, I know how real these problems are, these things that come up are. And the policy I had didn't have a ton of adjacent structures coverage, and so, you know, the policy was only gonna cover a small portion of it anyway, so I had to pay for that fence out of pocket, and if I had to charge that to a credit card and make those payments, that would have been tough for me. And so I realized just how tough it is when those unexpected events happen, and sometimes your insurance can't help you or, you know, the things that you were counting on just don't work out for whatever reason, and it's, again, just something that isn't going away. This is an industry that will be here. As the market changes the needs change, and so we'll be here finding solutions for folks.Amy: So I want to take a step back for a minute because, you know, insurance--and I've worked in insurance for 10, 12 years now, right, insurance is one of those things that people hate paying for and they hate using it, right? Because if you're using your insurance it means something horrible has happened, and it's something that we think, "Okay, I want my premium as low as possible because the threat of having a claim is a remote possibility that we don't really know how to calculate," right? We don't know how to calculate that risk. What are the odds that I'm going to use this? We're afraid to use it sometimes if it's, you know, a minor thing. Who can people--let's talk about prevention for just a second. Who's the best person for someone to talk to when they purchase a house or even if they're renting about what kind of coverage they need and what they should be paying for coverage? Because that sounds like a first step to preventing getting yourself into this sort of a financial crisis to begin with, right?OJ: Right, and so if you have a financial planner, that's someone who you should talk to. There are agents everywhere. Go talk to an agent. You know, I sold insurance when I first got into insurance, and the way I look at insurance is you pay me your premium and I give you peace of mind, right? So I need to make sure that this policy that you're purchasing is going to give you that peace of mind, and so when you're purchasing insurance you shouldn't start off with how much premium you want to pay. You should start off with "How much coverage do I need to have peace of mind?" Right? So if you have a home that would cost $300,000 to rebuild if there was a total loss, total fire, and you only have $50,000 of insurance, you do not have peace of mind. You are not going to be able to rebuild that home, right? And so you just want to talk to your agent and talk to your financial planner. Understand the costs, you know? You don't have to become a builder, right, but understand the costs associated with rebuilding a home or, you know, if you're getting an auto policy, right, if you cause an accident, right, there are financial implications. You could end up liable for thousands of thousands of dollars of someone's medical bills, lost wages. You could be hurt and not be able to work, right? And so these are situations that your agents and your claims professionals come across every day, and, you know, I've been on the liability side, and I've seen where someone, you know, got hit by an uninsured driver and had $10,000 of uninsured motorist coverage but $50,000 worth of medical bills, and, you know, they were trying to keep their premium low, and you're not doing yourself a justice by saving $20 in premium when that $20 in premium is tens of thousands of dollars of additional coverage, and you don't know when you're gonna have an accident. That's why people call them accidents. You don't know when you're gonna have a fire. You don't know when these unexpected events are gonna come. If you're purchasing a policy, don't do it because a state says you have to do it. Don't do it because, you know, your mortgage company is saying you have to do it. Do it because you understand that this policy is gonna provide peace of mind in a time where you need peace of mind. The stress of going through these things, right, is overwhelming sometimes, right? And just having, you know, a professional on the other end who can say, you know, "Hey, I know what you're going through. These are the things that are gonna happen and, you know, here's how we can help," is tremendously beneficial.Amy: Absolutely. And, you know, higher premiums don't mean better coverage. OJ: Right. Read your policy. [laughs]Amy: Read your policy, but not just that. Shop it around, right? Because I had--so when we moved into our house I went through the insurer that I had on our old house, and I won't name names, but we'll call them Company A, and Company A, my premiums on my new house were about $4,000 a year, and my coverage was I want to say about four... no, it was about $500 worth of coverage on just the house, and about a year later I decided I was gonna shop it just to see because it was coming up for renewal, and I got coverage through Company B, and Company B was $1,300 a year, and they estimated the rebuild cost of my house at over $700,000, and that's what they insured me at. So I was paying a lot more--I was paying three times the amount that I could have been for about half of the coverage with the first company versus the second, and it's all about how much do they know about your area, how much do they know about the kind of house that they're insuring, how much do they know about the risks and the likelihood of risk where you live, and how good is their math, right, when they're running those numbers, and so I think it really pays for people to talk to different companies and find out, because if I thought when I bought myself--I didn't pay $700,000 for my house, but if I had thought when I bought my house I needed $700,000 for the replacement cost coverage, I would not have insured it for $450 or $500,000, right? Because the other thing that happens that people don't know--and I don't want to go off on a big insurance thing, but the other thing that happens that people don't know is if you do have a total loss and you're under-insured, you don't get all the money your insurance company promised you at the beginning.OJ: Right. So there's that [?] percent co-insurance and [?] the cash value. Right.Amy: Right, so if you have a $200,000 house, let's say, and you have $100,000 worth of coverage on it, and you have a total loss, your insurance company will say, "Well, you know what, it's a lot more common to have a $100,000 loss on a $200,000 house than it is to have a $100,000 loss on a $100,000 house," right? "So we're only gonna pay 50% of your policy payout, or 80% of your policy payout, because you weren't insured to the full amount of your home." And so not only are you not getting the full value of your home, you're not even getting the full value of your policy at that point. You really want to make sure you've got full replacement cost on your home.OJ: Right. So, again, start with the amount of coverage that you need and then shop based on the coverage that you need. So compare apples to apples, right? 'Cause one company, like you said, could offer you--like, let's say Company A offered you $400,000 worth of coverage for the same $700,000, right, and then Company B said, "Hey, we'll offer you, you know, $700,000 worth of coverage for $1,000," right, you're getting the same coverage, right, but if Company A was saying, "Hey, $1,300 a year for $700,000 worth of coverage," and Company B said, "$1,000 for $400,000 worth of coverage," you're paying a lower premium, but you're also getting less out of the transaction, definitely. Your starting point should be "How much coverage do I need?" And then shop around, and always say "Hey, these are the limits that I want. This is the coverage that I need. How much are you charging for that amount of coverage?"Amy: Yep. Absolutely. Thank you, OJ, so much. That is so helpful, and I see several spinoff topics on this conversation, because I think it is important, and I think people really don't understand this. Insurance is kind of a black box, right? I pay a premium and then I pray I never use it, and we need to be more educated consumers about that, definitely. So I wanted to ask you a little bit, any other recommendations for our listeners about what they might want to learn about this industry or where they might go, you know? Articles or places that they might just show up and read or listen to learn more.OJ: Sure, sure. So there are tons of podcasts out there about real estate investing. There are seminars that happen throughout the year, but some of those seminars are thousands and thousands of dollars. I wouldn't recommend that you pay thousands and thousands of dollars starting off, especially not knowing if you're gonna dive in full-time, right? You don't want to spend $30,000 on something that might be a hobby, right? But just definitely reach out to folks. So if you get involved in your national REIA there are Facebook groups, and just reach out to folks who are in the industry and talk to them. I mean, the best value that I've gotten is just conversations with folks and learning things that I never would have thought about, right? I remember one conversation I was having with a guy named Bill Cook, who's a really successful real estate investor, and we were talking about mobile homes, and it was like, "Well, why would anyone want to buy a mobile home," right? And he shared with me that during the recession that was the best investment that he could make, because people were calling him and saying, "Hey, I need somewhere to rent, and I can't spend $700 or $800 a month. Do you have anything for $450?" And his phone is just ringing and ringing and ringing, and he had nothing in his inventory that he could rent for $700 or $850 a month, and then he got into investing in mobile homes, and he was able to now provide clean, safe housing for folks who couldn't afford $700 or $800 a month, but they could afford $450, and it was a smaller investment for him, right? Instead of buying a stick-built home you buy a mobile home, right, the costs are way different, and so he could make that work in his business model and help folks out who needed somewhere to live. And so, like, just having those conversations and understanding that, you know, you might have a preconception or you might be thinking of something in a way that is gonna prevent you from helping people, and just really having those conversations and being open-minded.Amy: That's fantastic. I would like to ask you to finish this sentence. "I feel included when ________."OJ: The people around me are laughing.Amy: Well, OJ, I can tell you that I am so happy to have you in my network and count you among my friends. I have so much fun talking to you, and I think the world of you. I think that you are on just this meteoric rise, and I expect great things from you. You're somebody that I want to, from the moment I met you I wanted to invest in you personally, because I wanted to see what you would become and what you would do in the world, and so I want to thank you for letting me be a part of your journey and thank you for joining me today.OJ: And I want to thank you for having me. It has been truly amazing getting to know you and seeing all of the wonderful things that you're doing and all of the value that you're bringing and all of the awareness that you're bringing just on the side. We had a conversation about intersectionality, and there was a talk on intersectionality here in Orlando, and I went, and, you know, I figured "I'm a person of color. I kind of understand other folks," and it was astounding how much I didn't know, right? And so just kind of--that conversation with you kind of inspired me to kind of go and learn about different groups and, you know, I actually had a mentor who identifies as a gay man, and I had no idea, and we were having a conversation surrounding intersectionality, and he confided in me, "Hey, you know, I've been a gay man for my whole life, and I don't share that with people because I've been ostracized." And, you know, here's a guy who's, you know, in his 50s, right, who doesn't feel comfortable being himself or expressing himself. And I had known him for quite a while and didn't know this about him, and it was kind of humbling to have him share that with me and realize that, you know, while I may have had my struggles, there are other people who are experiencing different struggles, and, you know, there are conversations that need to be had so that those people are empowered, right? And it was at that talk about intersectionality that, you know, we kind of talked about identity privilege, and I didn't realize how much identity privilege I experienced, and it was really eye-opening that, you know, here I am as a minority, but I experience identity privilege, and there are things that I need to do to empower those who don't have the same identity privilege that I do, and so I want to thank you for just bringing awareness to me and inspiring me to kind of go out and learn more, because it really is important.Amy: Thank you so much for saying that. I think one of those most powerful things that we can do as people, right, not as managers, not as coworkers, not as in whatever role but just as people, is ask questions and give each other the space to share, because it's in those spaces where we learn and we grow and we really build connection. And, you know, in the talks that I give I always tell people, "Look, if you think no one in your inner circle is LGBTQ, there's a really good chance you're wrong about that. And it's not that they're not there, it's that they're not comfortable talking to you about it." And the same goes for a lot of other identities too, right? You know, I know a lot of white people who will say, "Oh, I'm friends with--you know, I have lots of black friends," which is always a sign that they don't of course, but when you ask, like, "Who?" You know, it's usually somebody at work that they kinda sorta know, and, like, "Have you ever talked to them about their experience being black in the workplace?" "Well, no." I'm like, "Well, you're not a very good friend, are you?" [laughs] Wouldn't you want to know what that experience is like for your friend? So no, thank you so much for opening yourself up to those conversations and for sharing so much of yourself with me. I'm just honored to know you, OJ. I really am.OJ: Thank you. The feeling is very mutual, Amy.

On the tenth entry of our See It to Be It podcast series, Amy C. Waninger chats with Dr. José I. Rodríguez, a professor at California State University, Long Beach, about how he got involved in academia and what about it appealed to him, and he graciously shares the biggest surprise he had arriving into the industry. José also names several programs that are available for persons of color to help them feel supported and connected within the higher education space. Connect with José on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram, and check out his website by clicking here.Learn more about the programs José mentioned, BUILD, the Mellon Mays Undergraduate Fellowship, and RISE.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTAmy: Hello, Dr. J. How are you?José: Good, how are you doing?Amy: Doing great. How's the weather in California today?José: Well, today the weather is good. It seems we have weather. [laughs]Amy: Oh. That's unusual for you guys. [laughs]José: Right, right. It is highly unusual, but we're happy. We need the weather.Amy: So I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit--so you work in the education industry. You're a professor at Long Beach State. And I was wondering if you could tell me, how did you get into academia, or higher education, and what about it appealed to you? Did you always want to do this or did you kind of happen into it?José: Right, thank you. That is a great question. I got into it because I--you know, the pretty typical story that you have going to college, you know, your family tells you that that's the thing to do, and--at least in my family--you have to either be a doctor, a lawyer, or some other profession of that ilk, and I thought, "Well, I don't want to be a lawyer. I don't want to be a doctor. I'm gonna be an engineer." I started out as an engineering major, and I just got tired of doing math if I can be perfectly frank. By the time I finished a third semester of calculus I was done. [laughs] Amy: Fair enough.José: Yeah, exactly. You know how that goes. So I took this GE class in communication, and we sat around, and we were studying small group communication, and we would get together in groups and we would discuss topics and we would share ideas and we would have conversations in a college classroom--which I thought was revolutionary, because up until that point I really didn't have experience with communication in the classroom, and I just fell in love with it. I thought, "Wow, this is really cool. I think that this might be my thing," and the next semester I switched my major to communications studies. I started working with one of my favorite professors, who became a mentor, and one thing just led to another. So it wasn't like I had this grand vision of, "Gosh, yes, I've wanted to be a professor since I was 4 years old." That wasn't me. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. It was quite confusing. And I just stumbled onto what I do. I developed a nice relationship with some colleagues at the university. I got into a good master's program, and then just created a trajectory, really through networking, which I know is dear to your heart, and that networking panned out in some really interesting ways. So it was a lot of networking and things that I really didn't plan a priori but just seemed to work out in the process of doing and connecting with people, and I really loved it, and I still love it, and I think the idea of just connecting with people, connecting with people through conversations, connecting with people through teaching, through doing workshops, retreats, things of that sort, I find that very rewarding, very much, you know, aligned with the things that I value, and I find working with people to be, you know, useful. You see the results of it right away if you impact somebody's life. If somebody is moved by something that you say, you see those results very quickly just by looking into people's eyes. Somebody's getting an idea or somebody's asking a question or somebody's emailing you and saying, "Oh, my gosh, that was great. That was fantastic," and I think I really enjoy that almost-instant feedback in interactions through teaching, through doing workshops and things of that sort.Amy: That's fantastic. So what I heard in that was that you grew up with a value around education--and a lot like I was, right? I went into my college programs not knowing, like, what does that mean, what am I gonna be when I grow up, and sort of through the role of a mentor and sort of happenstance you were able to channel this value of education into something that's giving forward to new students and is true to your values and maybe not so much math. [laughs]José: [laughs] It's true to my values, that's for sure. Yeah, giving forward, you know, connecting with people, making a point or having a conversation with somebody that wasn't there before, right? So you enter into conversation or you enter into dialogue with someone, and in moments that come seemingly from nowhere you develop a line of thought or a line of argument or a conversation that is really meaningful, enriched, and it almost seems like magic is happening, that you're co-creating or co-inventing with someone, and that's really kind of fun and engaging and becoming more and more rare as we lead mediated lives, and I find that really rewarding. Amy: Yeah, I want to come back to that idea of mediated lives in just a moment, but can you tell me first - what's been the biggest surprise to you? So you moved down this path of becoming a professor, and then you got there. So what surprised you now that you're on the other side of that particular journey? What didn't you expect--good or bad--about your industry?José: Yeah, the thing that surprised me the most was the variety of activities that one needs to perform as a college faculty member. so I got into it because I like to teach and I like the interaction with students, I like being in the classroom, I like getting into discussions, I like lecturing, I like having that experience where you share a concept or an idea and it makes sense to somebody. They get it. Their eyes light up, and all of a sudden they are impacted in some positive ways. I really like that, and I thought that that was the majority of the show, but no, that's not the majority. In fact, that's just one third. There's this whole thing about publishing and being on committees and having service obligations, and I found that to be surprising and extremely time-consuming. And not that it's bad. It's just typically not my thing. I think in most areas of academia people have their strengths or their weaknesses or their preferences, and my preference is on the teaching side of things. Service and academic publishing are great and I've done some of that, but that isn't really where my passion lies. So that was a bit surprising at the beginning and at times a bit daunting, just because it's time-consuming. It's a lot of work, especially in publishing and getting your work out there and the process of revision and working with reviewers. All of that can be very time-consuming, and so that's a challenge, yeah.Amy: So I remember being in college, and I can tell you that my favorite professors were the ones that were there because they enjoyed teaching, not the ones that were there because they enjoyed the publishing aspect. They were usually not the best ones in class. I usually learned a little less from them because they tended not to care as much about making connections so much as, you know, they were worried about the publications and that sort of thing. So on behalf of your students I want to thank you for sticking with it and being there for them. I think that's so important.José: Thank you. I hear that. I hear that from students every once in a while, at times. You know, some faculty are very blessed. They won, like, a genetic and I guess personality lottery, right? They're very good at teaching, they're really good at publishing, and they're very good at doing the whole service thing, but I think most people have a strength in a particular area and everything else is okay but isn't as, I guess, you know, dominant in their professional life. So yeah, I think your point is well-taken, and at times it's a struggle for faculty who really are into the whole publishing game to teach as effectively as possible. And don't get me wrong, that's not everyone. I think the vast majority of faculty do a great job, and sometimes people who are very well-published are actually very good teachers because they're kind of on the cutting edge of their field and they are really excited about it and they bring that excitement to the classroom, and that's fantastic. But in my experience, that's fairly rare.Amy: Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody's not in academia now, if that's something they aspire to, maybe they're an undergrad or even a grad student at this point and they're thinking, you know, "Maybe this is for me." Where would they go to learn more?José: One of the places to learn more is through a mentor or a colleague or somebody who's already quote-unquote arrived. If you find a professor, a colleague, who is really a mentor, that's really the best way to find out if the career is for you. Usually when you go to grad school, especially if you're getting a Ph.D, you're gonna have a committee of people that are working with you as you finish your dissertation, and you usually have a faculty mentor or a faculty advisor, and that person typically is the type of person that guides you, that, you know, writes your letters of recommendation, that has you on their research team, and that is the primary way that you get socialized into the process of becoming a professor. Another thing that people tend to do is go to conferences and, you know, networking events where once, twice or three times a year there are national conferences, local conferences, international conferences, where graduate students go and meet people across the nation and really create a growing body of colleagues across the globe or across the United States and find opportunities to work. In fact, most people I believe, still today, get hired that way. You hire people that you know or you hire people that have worked with people that you know. In my experience, that probably happens 60 to 70% of the time. And again, just like in almost any other industry I would assume, networking becomes very critical. It becomes a part of your professional practice, and it's a great way to find out if the profession is right for you.Amy: So you said something interesting, and I know that--I'm betting that you knew I would pick up on this. You said that people typically hire people that they know and networking is important, and since the audience, for at least part of this interview--to use Living Corporate's terminology--black and brown professionals who maybe feel like they're outside of the in group and in academia, right? If we hire who we know, that tends to self-perpetuate the demographics of a department or of a school or of a profession, and so what resources are available to young people of color or to professionals of color in your area that help them maybe navigate those waters in a way that someone like me wouldn't have to do? What advice can you give them to kind of overcome that feeling of otherness?José: The feeling is a challenge, no doubt. No doubt. What's really exciting is that there's more and more programs for persons of colors and individuals from historically marginalized groups, programs like BUILD and the Mellon Mays Research Fellowship. There's another one called RISE, and we have those types of programs on campus--and they're national, they're all over the country, and essentially those are programs designed to help students from minority groups form a relationship with a faculty mentor in a larger community that is designed to help them navigate the murky waters of their professional development. They would start their undergraduate program with BUILD or with Mellon Mays or with the RISE program, let's say, perhaps when they're, like, a sophomore in college, and they would be assigned to a faculty mentor, to a research team. They would participate in conferences and get mentoring advice, and they would get help putting together a statement of purpose, a resume, a [?], and have publications with faculty members or, let's say, conference papers on their own as a part of a research team. All of those things are not only very possible, but I see them happening on campus every day. It's part of--what I do is I train faculty mentors on how to create conversations that are empathic and nurturing and holistic so that people know the kind of language that might be best, the kinds of things to say, how things might be interpreted, and we try to create scenarios where we're asked to engage in everyday conversations in a way that is much more inclusive and less divisive. So that's my best answer. Find one of these programs on your campus and join. Put in your application and take it from there. That's one of the best ways to do it.Amy: Yeah, that's fantastic. Thank you. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know, and if the target demographic for these organizations, if the target age or, you know, the target year is sophomore year, that's very early for a lot of students even where they want to head or, you know, what they might want to do. I know I was, like, mid-senior year and then all of a sudden panicked because what I thought was gonna do wasn't gonna happen, right? So I think it's great that if we can engage students earlier in these kinds of programs so that they can explore what out there, and specifically what's out there for them in terms of help so that they can overcome some of the affinity bias or some of the self-perpetuaing selection processes that maybe existing faculty have, so thank you for that.José: Oh, you're welcome. That's an excellent question.Amy: So what other recommendations do you have for students, and particularly students of color, who want to explore careers in academia? Are there books? Are there articles? Are there websites? Are there other resources around that they should take a look at?José: Well, there are plenty of resources, and again I would just go back to the resources that are available in some of these programs. Obviously all of these programs, BUILD, the Mellon Mays Fellowship, the RISE program and many others that I don't have off the top of my head, are available obviously online. So if you Google the Mellon Mays Fellowship, if you Google BUILD, you will see a major website or local website for your university or for locations across the country and then be able to, you know, gather the information that you need, not only on the website but find out what campus near you, maybe even your own campus, has that program. I know that the BUILD community goes out to junior colleges and does some pretty heavy recruiting to let students know that these resources are available. So BUILD in particular, I'm familiar with them because I've worked with them for the past couple of years, and I know that a huge part of their initiative is recruiting. So not just waiting for students to come to them, but really allowing students to know that the resources are available by going out into the community.Amy: Excellent, thank you. So you had said before that you have kind of this passion for creating connectedness and that you discovered this passion when you took a general ed class in communications, and so can you tell me more about where that passion comes from or what do you think was awakened in you in that moment?José: Yeah. One of the things that was awakened is just the power of solidarity, the power of coming together through dialogue to find what we have in common as opposed to what we have in difference, and that whole idea, you know, it's kind of a nice idea and it sounds like a really nice phrase, but to have that as an experience is life-changing, where you go "Gosh, here I come into a conversation where I thought there was all these differences or I'm not getting along with people or I'm different or there's something wrong with me," and then I go into a room and I have a conversation with a variety of strangers, and all of a sudden there's this feeling of connectedness, there's this feeling that I belong, there's this feeling that I can contribute, there's this feeling of, you know, kinship, right? Father Greg Boyle, who's out here in California, he runs the #1 gang rehabilitation center in the United States--Amy: Homeboy Enterprises.José: Yeah, there you go. Amy: He is a national treasure. He is a hero.José: He is amazing, yes. Father Boyle. He has this great line where he says, you know, "Imagine the circle of kinship where no one is outside that circle," right? And I love that metaphor, the circle of kinship, and I believe that we do that through many means, but primarily through conversation, through discussion, through the process of sharing messages with each other. I see him do this. You know, he has his daily message of the day and he, you know, films himself having a little talk, and, you know, this impacts people not only in his community but all over the country, and he goes and gives talks, and I can see that a part of their process is really this constant conversation of bringing people in, of making them a part of the community, of using a language, a discourse of unity, of connectedness, of how we come together really as an extended family and then bring people into that family, help them feel included so that we can heal what has been broken through this new experience of solidarity, right? And the power to do that through messages, through language, through metaphor, is I think just such a gift, such a beautiful experience to have with people, and I've discovered that that was, like, a rare thing, you know, that I saw in college back at the time. I'd go, "Wow, to be able to study this process of creating messages and using words to bring people together," the power of story for example, telling compelling stories that people can relate to about our challenges and where we came from and how we are similar through the narratives that we construct about our life history, our different positionality, the different intersections of race, class, nationality, sexual orientation that then help us be relatable, human, understandable, vulnerable, right? Those things I think get navigated primarily through the exchange of messages, through the exchange of linguistic, you know, discoursive thought, and those kinds of things I find just very rewarding.Amy: That's fantastic. So for those who don't know, Homeboy Enterprises is--it's a lot of things, but primarily what they do is they take former gang members and teach them job skills, marketable job skills, and then they create businesses, right, with the people in their program. So they might create a whole t-shirt company that's comprised--the employees of which are maybe even rival gang members all working together in sort of this rehabilitative space to overcome the past and to contribute to the economy and to really heal through work and through shared goals.José: Exactly, exactly. I think they have, you know, four or five businesses. They have a cafe. They have a bakery and quite a wide variety of businesses, and about a year ago one of the organizations on campus, the [?] Center for Ethical Leadership, gave Father Boyle an award, and he came--he was invited to come and, you know, accept the award. Unfortunately he was under the weather at the time and I didn't have a chance to meet him at that time, but one of the Homeboys came instead, and Miguel, who was in charge of marketing, just delivered this speech that was stunning. There wasn't a dry eye in the room. It was just powerful, yeah. So very moving work.Amy: That's amazing, and all of that through storytelling and connectedness.José: Exactly, and it was all really through the power of language. A guy up on a stage with a microphone telling his story.Amy: That's beautiful. So in the time that we have left, I would like your perspective on code switching and on cultural dexterity. So you and I had a brief conversation about this before we started recording, and I just want to know, what do those terms mean to you? I know that you use the term code switching to talk about when you're flexing between English language communication and Spanish language communication, but what does that mean to you? What's the feeling behind that term?José: So code switching for me is, you know, experientally that capacity to go from speaking English to speaking Spanish, or then from speaking Spanish to speaking English, and being able to go back and forth from those linguistic traditions, and that's how I tend to use the term code switching, in a very basic, organic, lay type of meaning, right? So nothing too intellectual or crazy cerebral, very simple, and I mentioned that to you in our conversation because I did that in the TED talk. One of the things I wanted to do in preparing for that was to be able to code switch from English to Spanish and Spanish to English, one because I thought that would be really fun, two I hadn't really seen it done before--I'm sure somebody has, but it doesn't happen very often--and also to be able to express through the power of spoken word that capacity to navigate two languages and, by doing that, create a sense of community, reach somebody through an online medium or through the internet or through whatever that message gets sent that says, "Gosh, here's somebody speaking my language," or "Here's somebody code switching," or "Here's somebody kind of going back and forth," and having a moment of identification, and I think through those moments of identification we start to experience solidarity, a sense of unity, a sense that we're not alone, that there's other people out there in the community that are like us, that are human and are willing to put themselves out there and put out a message that can be unifying, can be compassionate, can be empathic and can be, you know, the beginnings of a healing moment, not only for us as individuals but for communities at large. So for me that's my best answer with code switching. I want to just switch to the other topic that you were asking about, which is cultural dexterity, and cultural dexterity comes from a body of academic work looking at cross-cultural or inter-cultural communication, advancing the idea that we need to adapt or to adjust as we shift from one cultural orientation to another, and being able to do that is to have cultural dexterity, to be able to navigate not just my culture of origin or my tradition but to be able to seamlessly adapt to different discourse communities, right, without, you know, excessive effort or, you know, stumbling around, and that capacity I think is a skill that, you know, we really need, not only in our world but in our country, to be able to communicate with people that I perceive are different from me. I think we all need to have that as a skill set, because that is a primary human experience. Difference is a primary human experience. Whenever we meet the other, we are in the experience of difference. And how do we bridge that difference? How do I navigate that conversation with someone that is different from me? For some people that's very easy, for others it's very hard, and cultural dexterity is a concept that tries to get at the ways that we do that. And, you know, as you might imagine, one of the simplest ways to do that is, again, navigating conversations in such a way that we find what we have in common as opposed to what we have in difference. And we do this very organically all the time. When we meet somebody for the first time we say, "Hey, how are you doing? What's your name? Where are you from? What do you do? What do you like? Where'd you go to school?" And we ask all these questions to try to gather enough information to find something that we have in common that we can then zero in on to develop a dialogue back and forth around an issue that we have in common. So if I speak with you and I know that you're interested in networking and diversity, well, then I'm also interested in that, and I go, "Gosh, that's a topic of conversation that we can bridge whatever divisions we might have or whatever difference we might have, because diversity and networking are such a thing that we have in common that the other stuff just is not all that important or is kind of trivial or isn't really central to this passion that we bring to diversity and networking and things of that ilk," and I think that cultural dexterity is an area of study, again, that tries to teach those skills strategically.Amy: Excellent. So I want to commend you on your bilingual TED talk, and the reason I say that is because I think that there's--I think in the current political climate with some of the news stories that I've seen about people who have been harassed or assaulted for speaking languages other than English in public spaces, to me, for you to speak Spanish from a stage is an act of profound resistance against a culture that seeks to punish difference, and I can only imagine what that meant to someone in the audience who, you know, is a first-generation immigrant or, you know, for whom Spanish is their primary language at home, but they have to navigate a world that is in many ways alien to them because, you know, the culture seeks to strip them of language. You know, one of the tools of colonialism has been to strip people of their language and to strip people of their culture by forbidding language, and so I commend you for that. I think that's such a profound act of resistance and a profound act of courage and solidarity to do that so publicly and with so much empathy for your audience.José: Thank you. No, I appreciate that. I have got to tell you, that was difficult to do, yes, yes. It is a challenge because, you know, for all the reasons that you're articulating and more. We live in a climate where it's extremely weird to get up on stage and then not only do that but realizing that you're being videotaped and that is going to be launched at some point all over the internet and people are gonna be able to see that, you know, forever, right? So there's this strange feeling of vulnerability that I never really experienced before because, you know, I'm not someone that does TED talks every day. That was my first one. But there was this whole sense of feeling very vulnerable, very open, very, you know, out there, right? Just without a safety net, right? Especially on the day of rehearsal where you see that there's all these lights on you, right? There's just you, the stage, and these massive lights where you can't see the audience because the lighting is so powerful. You know, in order to capture you brilliantly in all the color and the dynamics of, you know, the technical aspects of the filming, there needs to be just massive amounts of lighting, and at first it was just a shock to the system, you know? Rehearsals for me did not go too well. I was very frustrated because I was distracted. I felt very vulnerable. I felt very agitated, because it wasn't something that I had rehearsed before. And then I knew what I was gonna do. I knew what I was gonna get up there and say. And after saying it though, it felt really good, you know? It felt very rewarding. It felt very evocative. It felt transformative. It felt very emotional. There was a couple of times during the performance where I choked up, because I didn't want to go up there and just be safe. I didn't want to go up there and just be very logical. I didn't want to go up there and just say, "Well, you know, I'm gonna talk about my research and these three areas," and be very linear and Aristotelian and academic because I felt that if I did that I would put on a very easy shield and not really be of service, and I just felt called to just, you know, let it ride, and I was happy that I took that risk for sure, so I really appreciate the affirmation.Amy: Absolutely, and as I listen to you I think about--it was almost a coming out, a public coming out, right, where I've seen and I've experienced, you know, being in front of a room and coming out, and it is, it's terrifying. There's nowhere to hide. You know, physically you're probably safe, but tricking your brain into believing that when you're out there on your own, separated from a crowd, right, the spotlight is literally on you and there's absolutely nowhere to hide once those words escape. It can be incredibly freeing, but it can be terrifying as well, and so--you know, and again, given kind of where we are politically and culturally right now, I just think that was incredibly brave and, you know, probably very affirming to the people that were there listening to you.José: Thank you. That tension between terrified and then having an experience of freedom, right, that is the tension that, no question about it, you feel very liberated, but at the same time a feeling of terror, a feeling of excitement, and talk about intersectionality. Intersectionality as an inner experience of multiple intersections of oppressive, liberating energies in the simultaneity of an insane moment, right? Because, you know, how many people have the blessing or the opportunity to get up on a stage and have all the lights on you and deliver a message? It's such a blessing, such a gift, and I wanted to honor that moment, you know? TED has a great line or a great mission to deliver, you know, a message worth spreading, right? That idea, that brand, a message worth spreading, an idea worth spreading, and every time I prepared I wanted to make sure that I was saying something that was worthy of that mission, that was worthy of that statement, that was worthy of that ideal, and in doing that, right, in attempting my best to stay true to those ideals, it was terrifying, it was difficult, it was liberating, and all of that happening simultaneously, like, you feel like your heart's in one place and your mind's in another and your body's going in a different direction and you forget, and then you bring it back and then you don't know how you're gonna be and you can't predict the future, but you know it's gonna be great, but you're not sure, and it's these weird journeys of the heart and the mind and the soul, and you're hoping, "Gosh, once I go through this whole maddening process, I hope I arrive on the other side okay," right? But it's just really what we talk about in kind of classic stories about the leap of faith, right? Taking a leap of faith, taking the hero or the heroine's journey, finding a way to kind of navigate your journey one step a time by claiming your truth as best you can in the moment and allowing wherever you land to be okay.Amy: Love that, yes. And, you know, the leadership lesson in that, about authenticity and vulnerability, I think is not to be overlooked, because certainly as you're stripping away some of that facade and you're, you know, opening yourself up in that way, people are seeing you as a leader in a way that maybe they hadn't before, and they're identifying with you and your story, and they become personally invested then in your success, and I think that that's--I think that's the real gift of leadership in an authentic and vulnerable way is that other people become invested in your success because they sense that you're equally invested in theirs.José: Right, I totally agree. There's this interesting dialectic, right, there's this interesting reciprocal relationship where I think through vulnerability we make connections with the other because we come to understand, at a very evocative, embodied level, our essential humanity. So I'm a human being just like you're a human being, and we're having a moment of solidarity where you might be admiring me, which is great, but I think the bigger gift is that you see yourself, you see the beauty of you in those moments, because in my, as I like to call it "stumbling successfully," I have said something or I have done something that allows you to see what is already beautiful inside you and helps you recognize it in a moment. And then you might project that onto me, which is fine, but hopefully what happens is that you feel empowered, you feel motivated, and then you feel that you want to pay that gift forward by allowing someone in your life to know that they're not alone, that they have value, that they are here with you for a reason, and in dialogue you get to discover what that reason is.Amy: That's beautiful. And if it's okay, we will end there. Thank you so much for this conversation, and thank you for extending your vulnerability to my audience. I appreciate it.José: It's been a pleasure connecting with you. Always, always wonderful to talk to you. Take care.Amy: Thank you.

On the eighth installment of our See It to Be It series, our amazing host Amy C. Waninger sits down to chat with Uso Sayers, CISA, an IT Audit Professional with over 14 years of public accounting experience who currently works as a managing director at Johnson Lambert LLP. Uso graciously shares a bit about how she got involved in public accounting and what about it appealed to her, and she names a couple organizations that help people of color feel supported and connected within the public accounting and IT audit field. She also discusses what surprised her about this work that she didn't expect going in, and she and Amy emphasize the importance of finding the place where you're different and going to listen.Connect with Uso on LinkedIn.Learn more about the National Association of Black Accountants.TRANSCRIPTAde: What's up, y'all? This is Ade. Before we get into Amy's episode, I wanted to share some advice on working remotely. For those of us who are impacted by COVID-19, more commonly known as coronavirus--or if you're not at all impacted by COVID-19 but you are working and transitioning into a more remote lifestyle--I just wanted to share six quick tips that you want to try out to work for you. I do want to say that I don't necessarily abide by all of these rules. I simply know that they are good things to follow based off of me implementing them at some point or another or folks who are better, smarter than me offering these things up as advice. So first and foremost, I would set up a strict calendar. By that I mean I would accept every invite for every meeting. I would have any break times that I wanted to schedule. If there's a point when you're working remotely where you have a cleaner or a plumber or you have a doctor's appointment, keep an updated calendar and make sure that you are updating your team, because it helps you work asynchronously across your team. If folks know that you're not gonna be available between the hours of 5:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. Eastern time because you're asleep, or some psychos are in the gym, it gives them an opportunity to not pester you while you're away but also think through some questions of how they may better utilize your time when you do get back online. My second tip would be to use check-ins with your co-workers. By that, I mean use your daily stand-ups [?]. Use your Slack team channels if that's a thing. Use those things to keep in contact with your teams, because it's very easy to lose perspective in a sense and lose empathy for your friends or for your coworkers if they're not constantly top of mind. So in that sense, I would remember, you know, team birthdays. Maybe establishing a Slack reminder that it's someone's birthday [and] you all should go drop a Happy Birthday gift in their messages. All of that to say [laughs] that if you can remember to treat your teammates as teammates, as people, not just, you know, an avatar on the other side of the conversation you're having about poorly deployed code, it makes for a better work environment, as distributed as it may be. Thirdly--and these also sort of go hand-in-hand, but I would say that you should over-communicate. This also kind of ties into your strict calendar. Over-communicate. Ensure that any time away from your desk, any planned work that you're gonna be working on, any roadblocks that you're having, you say those things before they become problems, because it's so much easier to kind of get ahead of the horse before it gets out of the table. I don't know if that's an idiom that people actually use anymore, [laughs] but I do think that it's important to ensure that folks aren't caught blindsided, that if you've been working on something and you're stuck on it, give people an opportunity to help you out, and give others the grace to see you where you are so that you don't foster resentment. It's much easier to get something done if you speak up about it sooner rather than later, and it's difficult. I know, for one, it's something that I've had my issues with, especially in situations where you are, you know, bound to your home. Reduce your stress levels and just ask for help. Actually there was one thing that I didn't mention at the top when I said "Set up a strict calendar." On your calendars, I also recommend that you put your self-cues. If you're someone like me who--I drink a lot of caffeine over the course of the day, and I recently spoke to a nutritionist who kind of reminded me that when you work asynchronously and when you consume a lot of caffeine, caffeine suppresses your appetite, and it causes you to fall into really unhealthy eating patterns. More often than not, when you find yourself at home throughout the day you get really comfortable--too comfortable sometimes--so I kind of encourage that you set up your calendar so that you have a routine, so that you're not just, you know, at home and not separating what is home from what is official work time. So when you're working from home, set up your calendar so that you have a routine. Have, you know, time for a shower, time for breakfast, time for the gym if that's something you do in the morning, so that you have a much more regimented schedule. And on your calendar as well, put in your hunger cues. If you're gonna eat at, I don't know, 7:00 a.m., if you're gonna eat breakfast or drink a smoothie at 7:00 a.m., it stands to reason that by maybe 11:00 you might need a small snack, so put a snack cue in your calendar. Maybe at 12:30 you're going to need your larger lunch. Put your lunch on your calendar. These things are important to help you establish a routine around your new lifestyle. Okay, we skipped back up to one, so I'm just gonna finish up with five and six. #5 is to protect your space. Whether it's that you need a physical demarcation of where work happens versus where life happens or if you're the sort of person who is able to, you know, keep up with the simultaneous demands of your work life and your home life, then it doesn't really matter where you work as long as work gets done. Just make sure you're protecting your space. Make sure that, if your close of business is 5:00 p.m., you're not allowing the fact that you work from home to have you check, you know, e-mails at 11:30 p.m. when you're supposed to be asleep. Ensure that you're protecting your space and establishing boundaries in that way, and help others understand and protect those things by communicating what your boundaries are. Just because we're working from home and we're mandated to work from home doesn't mean that my time after, you know, 5:30 p.m. is available to you, and if you see me online, mind your business. As far as you are concerned I am off work, unless it is a dire emergency. And then the sixth thing is don't forget to move. It's very easy, I know. I fell into the trap of eating inconsistently, over-indulging, under-indulging, such that after I had worked remotely for a while I realized that it was getting harder for me to, like, move physically, and it's easier to get ahead of that by simply incorporating movement into your day so that you don't develop back problems or spine problems or anything like that as far as your abilities may allow, but I also think that it's a good way to get out of the monotony and to inject some freshness and a fresh perspective into your day. If you just incorporate a quick 10-minute walk or maybe do some squats or, you know, whatever it may be that you can incorporate into your life to make your life easier, that is helpful and beneficial to you and obviously doesn't take away from you enjoying your day, I would say you should incorporate those things. I've been blathering on for a while. I hope these tips helped you out. Please let us know if there are any tips that work for you when you work remotely or asynchronously with your teams. That's it for now from me. Thank you so much for listening in. Next up you have Amy.Amy: Hi, Uso. Thank you for joining me.Uso: Hello, Amy. Good evening. It's my pleasure.Amy: Thank you. So I was wondering if you can tell me a little bit about your job as a tech auditor and how you got into that work.Uso: Okay, sure. So being in public accounting, I guess you could say I happened upon it. So I had an undergrad in accounting, and I was in grad school studying finance. Given that I had accounting background I figured, "Hey, finance will be a good thing that can, you know, supplement and complement my accounting degree." So I started doing that and I realized I really didn't like finance, so I added information systems as a second major. But doing that opened up--because this was back in 2002 to 2004 when Enron was happening, [?] was going down, so SOX became a big thing. I graduated in '04, and SOX--you know, filers had to be compliant with SOX in 2004, and--Amy: And SOX is the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation that sought to put some protections in place for consumers because companies were behaving very badly.Uso: Exactly. [laughs] I could not have said that better. And so most companies, especially large companies, were required to have IT audits performed. They had controls that they had implemented, and these controls needed to be validated. So that's kind of how I got into the [?] realm. Now, fast-forward 15 years, I'm still doing it because I absolutely love it. I love learning about companies and understanding their control structure so I, you know, can figure out how we can help them, how we can give them recommendations that they can implement.Amy: And when you talk about control structures, you mean things like separation of duties or checks on security so that the people who are accessing the system only have certain rights, the minimum rights that they need to do what they need to do and not extra stuff, right?Uso: Yes, exactly. So, you know, most of the company's financials come from one of the systems, and what was happening back in the day, one person can take a transaction through the system without anyone else touching that transaction. So I can create a vendor, I can pay that vendor. I can then determine where that check goes where that vendor, which leads to fraud or could lead to fraud--errors too, but fraud is one of the bigger reasons, because one [?] could pretend to be a vendor and the company never get any products or services, but I'm also the receiving clerk, so I can check off that this item that we've ordered has been received, and then I send the payment. Or I can even do it for myself, you know? Create some type of a dummy company with my address and then pay myself that way, and a number of companies actually lost money that way. But then there are also other ways outside of just fraud. You can have errors. You can also just have things that are--when you are developing code, and I know we're kind of getting into the technical realm, but when you're--and that's where a lot of errors could potentially happen, but when you're developing code you have the ability to determine how things are being calculated. So you can determine that 1 times 1 is equal to 100 versus 1, and if there aren't checks and balances in place to validate that 1 times 1 is 1, then, you know, the company could be losing money and not realize it. I always remember when I was in college, one of the things they always talked about was the [Lloyd fraudware?]. I think the guy changed one of the configurations by, like, a penny, and he was siphoning that to his own account, and I think he ended up getting millions of dollars.Amy: Oh, my gosh.Uso: You know, so now having--ensuring that the same person who is creating and developing the configuration is not the person who is making that configuration the final configuration in the system, or at least having somebody inserted to check it and make sure it's doing what the company thinks it's doing, you know? That's kind of what we call the control structure.Amy: Got you. Uso: Now, with cybersecurity, the security piece is getting focus. I think with SOX, this change management piece was the big deal then. Security was important, but now with cybersecurity and personal information and protecting that personal information, security is being put on the map so to speak.Amy: Mm-hmm, very good. So I know you got into this kind of a little by accident, because you were down the accounting path and then you just got interested in the IT side of things, but what surprised you about this work that you didn't expect before you got into it?Uso: It is interesting. You know, when you--at least I when I thought of accounting, I thought "boring." And, you know, finance to some extent, but then even though IT audit is not truly core IT, you have the ability to learn a lot about the technical side of what companies do, because before you can offer a company recommendation you have to understand what they have configured and what they have in place, what systems they have, what infrastructure those systems sit on, and then how they're securing their environment, how they're ensuring that, you know, they're protecting--another big area in the IT control realm is that [?] recovery. If we remember 9/11, a number of companies went under because all of their operations were in that building. You know, Tower 1 or Tower 2. They did not have any of that information backed up to a different location. Now we all have phones, and you'd be surprised to know how many people do not back up their pictures and their contact information outside of their phones. So the phone falls in some water, and that's all of their information. And so, you know, that's also one of the areas that we look at, because in 2018, 2019, there's still companies that do not back up data or do not back up frequently, which may sound surprising. [laughs] But it is true. And helping them understand why it's important, or understand why it's important to back it up to something other than the machine where you have the information or outside of the building where you have your information so that you can access it if something happened. You know, you might have people say, "Well, we're not in a [?] plane." Okay, but a pipe could burst. You know? So [laughs] the risks are still there, and, you know, we help companies understand what their risks are so that they can design controls, they can help them make [?] those risks.Amy: That's terrific. So a lot of computing is moving to the cloud, and how are you managing those same risks when the companies don't own the servers and the computers that the work is really being done on?Uso: So two things. The company now has to hold their service provider, that cloud provider, accountable, and they also are still accountable, because at the end of the day it's their data. It's their information. As a client of theirs, I gave them my information. I did not give the cloud my information. So when something happens, I go to the company that I gave my information to. So what companies are doing, there's something called a SOC report, Service Organization Controls report. So the cloud service providers have auditors come in and review their controls, and one of the reasons why the cloud service providers are so successful [is] because they're doing such a large-scale operation. They can afford to have, you know, the best auditors come in, validate their controls, and they can afford to put robust controls in place. So a lot of these companies--the larger cloud providers I guess I should say, because some of the smaller ones are not as sophisticated, but the larger ones, they have very robust controls in place, and they love to have auditors come in and look at it and try to tear it apart so that they can demonstrate that their controls are robust. And even those large companies have incidents happen, you know? That's why the Amazons of the world, they have data centers on both coasts and different places, because things happen, and for companies that do not have the infrastructure in place to support that in house, putting it on the cloud is probably the next best thing because it's going into a secure infrastructure. Now, where some companies think, "Oh, I just put it in the cloud. It's okay." You have to ensure--the cloud companies, in those SOC reports there's something called complementary user entity controls, and what that says is I have this gate, but you design the lock, and you design who has access to that lock. And companies don't realize that, so they think "Oh, it's in the cloud. It's okay," but no, there are those complementary user controls. If you are not doing those things, then the cloud service provider can say, "Well, we did what we're supposed to do, but they came in through the gate. We put up the fence of the infrastructure, but the people came through the gate because they didn't put a lock on the gate like they were supposed to." They will tell you what are the things--you know, they may say, you know, "You must authorize all users that are granted access," or for firewalls, the firewall is kind of the router, I guess, so to speak. I'm trying to find a good way to explain it, but the firewalls protect the network. So, you know, if you have internet traffic, it has to flow through the firewall. The firewall validates that this traffic is coming from a computer that's authorized before it can view your information. But you have to set up the firewall to do that. The cloud service provider is not configuring your firewall to tell which of your people can come in and view your information, and sometimes companies don't realize that. So it's easier, but you have to take the steps to also ensure that you're doing those things that you need to do.Amy: Thank you for that. So, you know, I think it's fascinating the way this role is changing in terms of IT and just all of the technology that's available and the way our platforms are changing. I grew up in IT back in the day, and it seems like this is a place that is ripe with opportunity for people just coming out of college or maybe even looking for a career change. What would you say to someone who's interested in learning more about whether or not they might be a fit for this industry? What kinds of resources are available to them to learn more?Uso: And this is tricky, 'cause I wish schools--and I think some schools are getting there, 'cause ideally the colleges will be providing guidance in this area because there's so many career opportunities in the IT field, even in public accounting. So even the traditional--you know, even the traditional accountant or auditor is different now. For the financial audit teams, they're adding data scientists and they're adding data analysts, so those are fields that maybe five to ten years ago, it wasn't a thing, and people may not know that. Even four years ago, some people entered school and that was not a career path, and now in your graduating years it's an opportunity. Project manager, you know? You know, if you're on the company side, project managers are in great demand. Certified information systems security professionals, you know? They're in great demand. It can be intimidating, but Google's probably the best place to start because that usually has the most updated information. I can tell you a number of universities, and, you know, when you look up careers in auditing or careers in IT auditing, you'll see that it's no longer traditional just control management. There are risk management roles, security roles, the data roles like I said, and the data roles are becoming more and more important because of big data. You know, companies have all this data. Somebody has to analyze that data and assess it and determine, you know, how can we use it. Even for auditors, you're getting information from a company, you want to know if there's all of the information that I need. So let's say you're auditing an insurance company [and] you get a list of claims. You have to performance procedures to ensure that that list of claims has all of the claims that you wanted to see for the period of time that you wanted to see it. So you may see "I need to see all claims for 2018 over a million dollars." Well, how do you know that this report that they gave you has all this information on it? You have to do some type of validation procedures to get comfortable that the information on the report is complete and then do your auditing procedures to, you know, understand and test the accuracy of it. A lot of times also the bigger firms--so in public accounting the big four firms and some of the larger public accounting firms, they also have a lot of info on their website that can potentially help. But again, that may be skewed to their company. So I would say start with just, you know, a broad search on Google depending on what aspect of IT you're interested in and then kind of use--you know, I always go for a known site. So, like, if I'm Googling something and I see Harvard is in the top six, I probably will click on the Harvard Business Review's point of view and read there first before going to the next thing, 'cause there's some things that make you go like, "Hm, I don't know." [both laugh]Amy: So what about for people of color in this industry? I would imagine that there's a predominance, especially in management ranks and probably in some of the bigger companies--I know a lot of the bigger companies are really committed to diversity initiatives, but I would imagine that it's common for a person of color who goes into this work to be the only on their team or the only in their department. What resources or organizations are available in this industry so that people can feel supported, feel like they have a community in this space?Uso: Right, yeah. And it's interesting. So public accounting generally, yes, is still pretty traditional, all white male, but I noticed the IT audit side is very diverse. It's very interesting, because I think it's one of those areas where your skill--yes, politics play a part, but your skill set is needed and your skill set is valued and respected. And there are an number of resources. Most of the bigger firms have affinity groups that, you know, they're either women's groups, groups that are by race, and then even for sexual and gender-type diversity, there are groups for that. And then outside of the firms there are also various groups. You know, there's Women in Technology. There's the National Association of Black Accountants. There's the National Society of Black Engineers. There are a number of affinity groups that are out there that focus on helping minorities 1. connect with each other and 2. be exposed to the resources and development that they need in order to progress in their organizations, and it's one of those things where I personally feel like it's--when I started in public accounting, I was a member of the National Association of Black Accountants, and I felt like that really helped me to 1. understand what it takes to be a professional. It helped me to expand my network, because I got to meet not only people in my firm, but also people in other firms. I got to meet professionals at my level, professionals that were higher than me, professionals that were my gender, my race also outside of that, and that really helped me to have a wider view, a wider point of view and different points of view, as I progressed through my career. Some people feel as though these groups sometimes hinder your career, and I say it only does that if you're not being smart about how you're using your time. Because sometimes I think people only use this opportunity for social networking. They don't use it for any technical development. They don't use it to help auditors--like, one of the errors I have focused on as I was coming up in my career was the development of [?] students. So things that I learned, I would go back and present on campus or, you know, in that I was director of student [?] services, so, you know, help them build some of the governance documents, and even talk to some of the professors about some of the things that I'm seeing and things that they should be implementing and instilling in their students. So I'm a firm believer in it. Now, I can tell you that my white counterparts will always be like, "Well, why do we need a group for black people? What would happen if we had a group for white people?" It's like, "Kind of technically we do." [laughs]Amy: [laughs] Kind of all the groups are for white people unless they're saying specifically that they're not.Uso: Yeah, 'cause I think sometimes you get discriminated against. You know, people don't want to do it because they don't want to say that "I'm in this group," that, you know--and the group may be, you know, black or Latino or whatever in the name. There's alpha. There's also the [?] for the Asians, but even though the groups have that in their name, we welcome everyone, because we realize that we need that perspective from, you know, the white male manager, the white female manager, because they're the ones that can help us understand what their points of view are, and then we can also help them, because sometimes they realize, "Oh, wait. My view might be skewed," or "I was never exposed to anyone outside of my town, my city, my race," you know? So usually it's a two-way learning experience.Amy: So I want to put a really fine point on that, because I always tell people, "Go to the conference that's not for you. Show up at the meeting that's not for you. If you're at a conference, go to the breakout where you're not on the menu." Right? Like, find the place where you're different and go listen, because I think it's important for people--you know, the same person who says, "Why do we need an association of black accountants?" That's the person that needs to go to the meeting to listen, to learn why they need associations of black accountants, right? They have no ideas what kinds of barriers are in place for people who don't look like them, and so, you know, I always challenge people and they say, "Well, yeah, but, you know, how do I even learn about this?" Go sit down in the back of the room, don't raise your hand, take notes, pay attention, and--"What if someone asks me what I'm doing there?" And I say, "Tell them you're there to learn, and then zip it." [Uso laughs] Like, nobody's going to ever get mad at you because you want to learn more about their experience, right? So thank you for being on that train with me.Uso: And I've had people who have said being in that room where they were the only really opened their eyes, because they're sitting there and they're like, "Oh, my goodness. I'm so uncomfortable." And then they start realizing, like, "This is so-and-so from my group who is the only. This is probably how they feel." And I think sometimes that's such good advice to give, because going out there and experiencing, there's nothing that compares to that. Hearing second-hand about it, I don't think you could fully appreciate it. I also liken it to parenthood, you know? Before you have a child, you have all of these things that you know exactly how to raise a child, how a child should behave, everything, and then you have yours and you're like, "Oh, my goodness. This is not anything like I thought it would be. I can't control my child. My child runs wherever." You know, you can't keep up, and you start to appreciate parents more because you realize how difficult it is to be a parent. So sometimes you do have to sit in that person's shoes so you can understand what they experienced.Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so funny because I--yeah, I think my kids--on that point, I think each one of my kids exists for the sole purpose of proving me wrong on something I said before I had children. [both laugh] I don't want to get off-topic, but yes, you are right about that. It is so much easier to be a good parent before you have kids. But I think for a lot of people, you know, that self-awareness and that self-consciousness that they feel for the first time, you know, people can go a long way through their lives with never having that kind of moment where they have to be self-aware and they feel very self-conscious, and when they realize in that moment that other people have felt that way for, you know, 25, 30, 45, 50 years, right, in their careers, and, you know, I think there's just an amazing amount of empathy that can happen in those epiphanies. So I'm so glad to hear someone else say, "Come to the meeting."Uso: Yes, it's so important. And you can never, never not benefit from being there. It will be uncomfortable. I cannot promise you that it won't be uncomfortable, because people will probably look at you like, "Hm. Is she [?]?" "Do I have to be careful what I say?" Because sometimes, you know, people do--in some of these meetings, people do get a level of comfort where they share openly, and sometimes when there's somebody in the group that's of that group that they're talking about they may not share as comfortably, but you need to be there. You need to understand some other things that people see. And I always, even to my colleagues and black friends, I'm like, "You have to also look on the other side." So some of them, you know, yes, at work we're usually only, but sometimes going to some of these other conferences and understanding the expectations can help us also. So I have always tried to go to my NABA conference, but I also go to my ISACA conference, which is, you know, the Information Systems Audit and Control Association, which governs the work I do, and now that I'm in the insurance industry I go to the, you know, insurance accounting and systems association conference because I want to develop the technical knowledge and the technical skills so that I can have those conversations and be comfortable. I mean, you start to realize there are some people who are just idiots and that's just who they are, but more and more when you go out and meet other people, you realize that getting people and having them learn a little about you and you learn about them breaks down some of those barriers, because a lot of things are just perception. They're not reality. They don't really just hate you because you're a black woman, you know? Sometimes they just--they don't know what to say to you, and for me it's a little harder because am I a black woman, I'm a black woman from a different country. [laughs] So some of the things that are culturally acceptable and expected, I don't always know about it, and my friends always--you know, they gave me the whole "Bless your heart" kind of thing [laughs]. There's some things that I just don't know, but I am not afraid to learn. I am not afraid to learn, and I'm always going out there so that I can learn and develop and become a better person.Amy: I think that's fantastic. So you and I had talked before about--I'm gonna switch gears a little bit on you, but you and I had talked before about how each of us, you know, people in general, we kind of contribute to the de facto segregation and the narrowing of our own professional networks and our own communities and, you know, only hanging out with people who are just like us until we had that moment when we realized, "Oh, my gosh. I've done this to myself and I didn't even realize it," and I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your experience with that.Uso: Sure. So when I moved to the U.S. and I started my public accounting career I was in New York, and I remember my first time going to training. It was, let's say, 2,000 professionals, and the black professionals were a very small group there. We were there for two weeks. The first few days, I would always go find my friends and, you know, go sit at that table, and I don't remember if somebody said something to me, I don't remember what it was, but one day I decided, "You know what? Let me just go sit at one of these tables," and I can tell you, I mean, of those 2,000 people, if we had 100 people who were not white, that probably was a large amount. So, you know, I'll go a little bit off-topic for a second. I always hear people say, you know, "Oh, is that so-and-so?" And they may take you for somebody else, and then black folks will be like, "Why do they think we all look alike?" Being in that room, like, there were, like, so many guys that, to me, I couldn't tell who was Joe from Jim from Bob. [That] made me, like, really understand how it is that we can all look alike, but side-note. But being in there and looking around and seeing all of these different people, you know, I thought "Let me go sit from people who are not from New York, who are not black, who I've never met before." So I started, for lunch and dinner breaks, just going to sit at random tables with people that I had not met before. You know, I developed relationships. I met people who I was so similar to that, you know, it was very interesting. And after that, even at work, you know, I started having conversations, and I remember I was on a team once, and then--you know, I always said that if you heard the conversations and the things we talked about as a team or the shows that we watch, the music we listen to, and people just told you the thing and you had to map it to the person, you would get it wrong, because the person who could quote the movie Friday was not the black girl on the team, and the person whose favorite movie was Pretty Woman was not the white girl on the team, you know? And that's when I started realizing that we have a lot more similarities than differences, and the only way I got to know that was to step out of my comfort zone and go meet people that I had not met before and be uncomfortable. And it wasn't even--I mean, yes, at first, you know, it takes a little [?], but once you sit there, people are pretty friendly. There are some who are not as friendly, but for the most part people were friendly and willing to, you know, open up.Amy: Thank you for sharing that. You know, I think if we all start with just being a little uncomfortable at first, and then what used to be a little uncomfortable becomes comfortable, and then we start to be a little uncomfortable again, and pretty soon you build that muscle memory to where it's not all that uncomfortable anymore.Uso: Yep. And I'll share another story. I have two kids. I have an almost 9-year-old and a 6-year-old, and I remember when my son, who's the older one, was in preschool and we had to look for an elementary school, we looked at a number of schools. Private schools, public schools, charter schools, and one of the things that--I think he was in pre-K, and he was telling us about a friend in his class and something that he said, but he wanted to--so he told us the boy's name, but we didn't know--we didn't recognize the name, so we were like, "Oh, which one is this?" And he's like, "Well, the one that looks like people on TV," and we realized he didn't have, you know--'cause he had just started his new preschool, but before that, all of the years that he was in preschool, it was a predominantly black preschool. So he didn't have any white boys in his school, and then we started looking around and realizing that that was our network. So we made a concerted effort that wherever he goes to real school is going to be a diverse place, because he really shouldn't have to describe somebody based on what they look like on TV. He should know them, be able to relate to them, and have relationships with them, and it's so great now to see that he has such a diverse network and that I feel like I can't wait to see kind of what their future looks like, 'cause I think they will have a different perspective on diversity than we do, 'cause to them it's like, "That's just my friend." "That's not my white friend, that's not my black friend. That's my friend." Amy: Oh, I sure hope so. And I think there's another angle to that too, which is that it's sad that the representation that he sees on TV is so predominantly white.Uso: Different story, but yes. [both laugh]Amy: I didn't want to let that moment pass. I think that there's another lesson in there about media and representation and those sorts of things, but, you know, I'm grateful. I'm grateful for other parents out there who can, you know, self-reflect on the kinds of experiences and exposure that their kids are getting and say, "Oh, we need to be intentional about this. We need to be intentional about bringing more diversity and exposing our children to different types of people." I was wondering. I know that you have experience as a volunteer leader within some of the companies that you've worked in around bringing together diverse employees and their allies, and I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what drove you, what motivated you to do that work--which can be exhausting and thankless and on your own time and in addition to your day job--and also just a little bit about what you got out of that experience?Uso: Yep, sure. I think I've always had a servant/leader-type mentality, because growing up my dad always, for birthdays and holidays, took us to places where we could volunteer to help others. He was a baker, so we would bake, and then we would serve--you know, he'd take us to different homes. One was a children's home for children who had polio and then one was an old people's home. When I moved to the U.S., I first started volunteering at the library for people who couldn't read, and I realized--the thing that attracted me was this flier that said, "If you can read this you can help, because there are people who can't read this." And I was like, "Really?" And I met people who were over 21, all the way up to, like, 60, who couldn't read, and I'm talking about don't know that t-o-i-l-e-t is toilet. They just use the picture of the door to know that that's where they go to use the bathroom. In school I volunteered. [?] I used to help kids with homework, but once I got into the profession and I realized that there are opportunities 1. to network with others like myself, but also to help others in the firms, I loved it. I jumped at that opportunity. So I moved from New York to Indiana in my second year as a professional, and being in Indiana, I did not have a lot of others that looked like me in the firm. We didn't have enough to have, like, a black employees network, so we ended up in a multi-cultural circle, which was great because we had people from different parts of the world, different genders, different thought processes, and because we didn't have, like, black partners or Indian partners, our leaders were the white partners. So that really helped us 1. we got the support we needed, but 2. we were able to have conversations and understand what it took to grow in the firm. One of the things that I did was to organize these many--what did we call them? It was, like, Breakfast with a Leader. So each partner would meet with three to four professionals from the group for either lunch or breakfast and just get to know each other. That was so powerful, and I still have relationships with some of those people today even though I'm no longer with that firm. And, you know, one of my partners was always telling me about this client contact that he wanted me to meet, and, you know, people always tell you they want you to meet people, but when I finally met the person he wanted me to meet, the first thing the person said to me is "This guy really respects you. He has been telling me about you for the past year." And that--sometimes you don't realize that. You don't have that. You don't get that. You know, people will say whatever, but they don't follow up with their actions and match it, and so I think that whole experience, I still say that I think 1. if I stayed in Indiana I probably would still be with that firm, but that just really helped me to grow as a person, helped me understand my weaknesses, things I need to develop, helped me educate others on us as a group and help them see, you know, us as we are high-performing professionals just like everybody else. We just have differences, but those differences are not hindrances. So, you know, educating them and then educating ourselves. It was just a really powerful experience.Amy: That's breaking down the walls between you, right? And I think so many times people look--when they look mentor, they look for people who are just like them because that's what's the most comfortable. Not because there's any animosity, right, between them and another group or not because they harbor any ill will, just because they don't want to be uncomfortable with that first minute either, and so what you really did was you took away that discomfort and opened up--you know, opened up the channel for people to be mentored and, you know, for executives to find mentors that didn't look just like them, and that's powerful.Uso: Yep, it was very powerful, and it's really helpful because a lot of times you really do try to go to people who look like you, and one of the things that I've learned is you need people as mentors who have had similar experiences to you, but it doesn't matter what they look like. If you are a high-performing individual who is on the fast track in your company, it is very helpful for you to have a high-performing mentor, because having a mentor that may take, you know, three or five years less than you would take to get to a level, they may not understand what you need to do to get there because they didn't do that, but having a white mentor versus a black mentor probably won't make a difference to you, because what you need more is someone who has the technical capabilities and the connections to get you where you need to go, and I think people undervalue the need to have advocates, 'cause the advocates are the people who have the power to connect you and also sell you and get you to where you aspire to go. Having a mentor is great, but if your mentor does not advocate for you, you know, then you may not be getting the best out of that relationship, and I think sometimes why people try to build the relationship, the mentor-type relationship, with people who look like them is because they may have tried to develop a trusting relationship with someone who broke that trust, and then they associated that, breaking that relationship, with the person's race. No, that person is probably a person who would have broken somebody's trust regardless of who it is that they're mentoring. And yes, I do, you know, accept that there are people who haven't [?] somebody different. They may have acted differently, but I'm learning now that it's a smaller group of people. It's not as large a group of people as we think, and sometimes we generalize that one-off experience and kind of take the brush and paint the whole wall with it to say, you know, "All white men, you can't trust them because this is what happened to me," but you'll learn that sometimes you can trust people more than you think and a lot of the people who have helped me in my career have not looked like me. A lot of them were not my same gender, and, you know, they were very honest with me, and I think what was helpful was for me to be open-minded and receive information, 'cause what I've learned is sometimes we're not receptive to constructive feedback, and because of that we are not given the truth, so we don't really know the reason why we didn't make it to the next level. And a lot of times it's not just because of what we look like, but it's because of what our work output looks like. Which, you know, as we all know, there is no color there, you know? But if you don't know if your work is not of the quality that is, you know, expected of you, you may not know that you need to improve your work quality.Amy: That is true, and a lot of times we have to have trusting relationships to get good feedback. You have to build that relationship first so that people know that they can trust you with their feedback. How you receive feedback is so important as to whether you will get it a second time, and I tell people, don't punish the people who praise you, because if somebody's giving you a compliment, if somebody's telling you you did a good job and you belittle that praise, they're not gonna tell you next time, and you're not gonna know when you're on the right track, and you may hear something constructive that you don't want to hear, but if you can say, "Thank you for making me better. I'd like to think about that," even if you do nothing with it--if all you say is, "Thank you. I'd like to think about that," that goes so far in building a relationship with someone. And then if you do actually think about it and come back to them with questions later, even better, right? Because they know that you really have a desire to improve. So spot on. Oh, I love talking to you. [both laugh]Uso: And it is hard, 'cause you do not want to hear that you suck. [both laugh] You know? You don't, and I can tell you that I have received feedback that hurt me to my core, and I'm sure my facial expression and my reaction was not the most receptive, but I went away and realized, "Oh, my goodness. This is true," and one of the things that I had to realize--there is this one person who I had one shot to work with her, and I had come to her with a lot of praise and, you know, all of this stuff surrounding me, and I screwed up, and, you know, she had a lot of influence in what happened to my career that year, and I was mad, but then, you know--it took a while, but then I realized she only had one shot at me, and I screwed that shot up, you know? She didn't find all of the errors in my work. I put the errors there. I missed the stuff. But at the time it was happening it was not easy for me to realize that, you know? You have to really sometimes, like you said, just say, "Thank you for making me better," and go away and think about it and not just be like, "What? When? Where? How? What? I didn't--" You know? "Thank you for making me better." I like that. I think I'm gonna use that. [both laugh]Amy: So in the time that we have left, I'd love for you to answer--like, finish two of my sentences. The first one is, "I feel included when _______."Uso: I feel included when my opinions are asked and respected.Amy: And the second sentence is, "When I feel included, I ________."Uso: When I feel included, I am happy, and I'm usually looking for ways to help include others. Amy: Thank you so much, Uso.Uso: My pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity.Amy: This was so much fun, and I hope we get to talk again soon.Uso: I'm sure we will.Amy: All right.Uso: All right, take care.

In our fourth See It to Be It podcast interview, Amy C. Waninger chats with Chris N. West, an opening keynote speaker and seminar leader on digital marketing. His talks have been presented to teams in Germany, Canada, and the UK. His career has taken him to 48 states. He is the Founder of LR Training Solutions, a corporate training company based in Houston, Texas. These discussions highlight professional role models in a variety of industries, and our goal is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals. Check out some of the SI2BI blogs we've posted while you wait for the next episode!Connect with Chris on LinkedIn and check out LR Training Solutions!He also has Twitter and Instagram!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every now and then we try to mix it up for y'all, 'cause--so look, dependency and consistency is really important, but even within those lanes of consistency, you gotta have a little bit of variety, you know what I mean? You don't come home and just eat the same thing every day, or even if you do--you know, you got a meal prep thing--maybe sometimes you put a little red sauce. Maybe sometimes you put a little green sauce. You know, you gotta just, you know, mix it up from time to time. Maybe sometimes you grill it. Maybe sometimes you saute. Maybe sometimes you rotisserie. You gotta just--am I hungry? Yes, I'm hungry, y'all. My bad. Listen, check it out. We have another entry for y'all from our See It to Be It series. Amy C. Waninger, CEO of Lead at Any Level as well as the author of Network Beyond Bias, she's actually been a member of the team for a while now, so shout-out to you, Amy. Yes, thank you very much for all of your work here. And part of her work has been in driving this series called See It to Be It, and the purpose of the series is to actually highlight black and brown professionals in these prestigious roles, like, within industries that maybe we--and when I say we I mean black and brown folks, I see y'all--may not even know exist or envision ourselves in, hence the name of the series, right? So check this out. We're gonna go ahead and transition from here. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and a super dope professional. I know y'all are gonna love it. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Hi, Chris. Thanks for joining me.Chris: No problem. It's good to be here.Amy: Thank you. So as you know, this series is designed to help young people, particularly young people of color, see all of the opportunities that are available to them in their careers, in the economy, and we're gonna spend a little time later just talking about specific support systems available to people of color in your industry, but first, can you just tell me a little bit about how you got involved in digital marketing, then how that evolved into a speaking career?Chris: Okay, sure. How I started, it was a while ago. I got my degree in marketing, and then I got a job at Google as a marketing specialist, and through that job, part of it was we would go around the country to talk to small business owners about how to use Google products to grow. So this was anything from Google+, Google advertisements, Google map listings, and pretty much all of the Google tools that can help a small business and also a large company out as well. So through that experience, it really helped me figure out what I would like to do long-term in the future and what it meant to me to do that for small business owners and other organizations. And once I started doing that training through all of those small business workshops, that's when I started realizing that I have kind of a skill for [?] to people. And also, not only that, but skill in digital marketing in general. So I got certified a while back in some of the e-marketing topics and decided to keep pursuing it over time. So then I ended up learning more about the industry as far as speaking after my Google experience, when I started researching more about it.Amy: So was your background--before you went to Google, was your background in marketing or was it in technology?Chris: It was in marketing actually. So yeah, it was a degree in marketing. Some of the companies I've worked for in the past, it was specifically marketing jobs, and that's before even Google. And the good thing about my experience at Google is that I would do about two to three I would say different jobs every six months, and I got to really learn what I would like to do long-term. Amy: The reason I asked about your background before you went to Google is I think a lot of people think of Google as a tech company, and if you're outside looking in you might think "Well, how would somebody without a technical background get into a tech company?" And I think the lesson from your story is that marketing is a skill that's transferable to a lot of different industries, including tech, and so we have to think not just about our industry but also about our function and how that function can be used in different industries. Have you found that to be true?Chris: Yeah, that's true. I never really thought of it that way, but yeah, that makes sense. Like, doing something that you can use in different industries as well. Because even as I was there, I was probably, say, out of 100 people, I would say maybe 10 people, you know, were minorities. Yeah, so I think it's still a challenge for them as well as far as being more diverse with the teams that they have, and especially the marketing team I was a part of, it was rare to have diversity. But yeah, having something that you can transfer to go to multiple industries and try to figure out how to stand out is really important.Amy: That's great. And so what was the biggest surprise to you about--you know, as you kind of went through school and you decided, like, marketing was gonna be your focus, once you got into the work world, what surprised you about the job or about the function that you didn't expect while you were in school?Chris: Oh, okay. I didn't expect to have to kind of, like, have to deal with the politics side of everything, you know? Like, dealing with the organizational structure. I thought I would just get the job, everybody would be fun and happy, no issues, no drama. [laughs] You know? But going in there and learning that it's not just about the job, it's also about how you can deal with different types of people with different backgrounds within the organization? So that's one of the main things I learned, and then also being able to be a leader and communicating your ideas, where as before, when I was in college, I was kind of on the quiet side, you know? So, like, learning in corporate, you have to kind of, like, communicate your ideas to the right people. So that's the one thing that I've tried to get better at over time, right, when I got into the workforce.Amy: Yeah. I think so much of success in an office or success in a business is not doing good work. I think--so I know a lot of women and a lot of people of color, we tend to suffer from impostor syndrome. We're worried that we have to kind of prove ourselves and prove that we're good enough to be where we are, and I think what we tend to miss is the political side, and it's we're spending so much time with our heads down trying to do the best job we can that we don't take time to make sure that other people know that we're doing a good job. Have you found that to be the case?Chris: Yeah, I think that's true with many people that I've met in the past as far as anybody trying to go after, like, their goals. I think people have so much--many people, when they get into the workforce, they get so much experience, but nobody knows about the experience, you know? It's like everybody, so many of you are doing awesome things, and then they don't even put it on their LinkedIn profile what they've done, you know? They don't have a--if they're trying to market and they don't have a website to showcase what they've done. And I guess some people think it might be bragging and everything, but you've got to think about who's gonna tell the story. You know, who is really gonna tell your story, and in general, no one's really--not many people are gonna know what experiences you've had unless you tell somebody or you say exactly what you did. So you just--I feel like people gotta spend time to learn how to market theirselves and kind of showcase things that stand out with their career. Amy: Absolutely. Building a personal brand is so important, and it starts--whether you're doing it intentionally or not, it starts the minute you step into the job.Chris: Yep, the minute. Yeah, it definitely changes pretty quickly. [laughs] Especially if you're trying to network within the organization and trying to get promotions. [?]. It's not just about the good work you're doing.Amy: Yep. So your brand is really what other people are saying about you, and if other people don't know that you're there, then you don't have a brand, and that's tough. It's tough to overcome that. So I always tell people, "Look, it's not bragging if it's true." So if you've actually done it you better speak up, 'cause it's not bragging if it's true.Chris: Somebody else is going to speak up for theirs though, right? You gotta stand out these days.Amy: So if somebody's not in marketing and they're thinking that might be a really good field for them, first of all, what characteristics or what strengths do you think play well in a marketing space for a person?Chris: For a person? I would say being able to look at things and figure out how to make things better, how can you improve awareness about a brand. A lot of it I feel, when it comes to marketing, you gotta have new ideas on a constant basis. So if you're the type of person that is always looking at how to make something better or maybe make something look better or you're able to connect with multiple people, I think it's definitely a good career. And as far as--there's so many different types of marketing. There's marketing yourself and then marketing at a corporation level, and if you work at the corporation level you really need to know, like, the latest trends or what's going on, what companies are using to market their organization, and these days it's not about just being able to design a brochure anymore or just being able to create a logo, it's more so people want everything, you know? They want you to know about social media, something about it. You don't have to be a complete expert, but you need to know what's going on out there as far as, like, the different channels. E-mail marketing, social media, things like that.Amy: And so if somebody sees themselves in that profile, that they're an idea person and they like staying up on trends and that sort of thing, where can they go? What kind of resources are out there to help people learn more about the industry, learn more about the function and kind of feel out if it's a good fit for them?Chris: I would say the American Marketing Association. That's where I started. That's where I got a lot of my experience, and over there you're gonna meet people that that's what they do on a daily basis for a full-time job. They're marketing managers, marketing specialists, directors, executives. So pretty much everybody [?] goes there. So they have the national level, and of course they have, like, pretty much a lot of local chapters on the professional level in pretty much all of the major cities. And even if you're a student, they have, like, a college [?], which was a part of when I was a college student. So that's the best way to start. So every month they'll give you what's new, what's going on, and they'll give you ideas on how you can stay up to date. Amy: That's great. And so I'm guessing since you're a speaker you do a lot of work with the Association now. Probably on the other side, right?Chris: Yeah. You know what? I haven't really started. I plan on it in the future, you know? [?] But I do work with other associations, but yeah, that is definitely a plus that comes with me being a part of it. I'm probably more likely to be able to speak at some of those events, so yep.Amy: So I think it's interesting, because it took me so long to even realize that--so I'm a first-generation professional, and it took me so many years to realize that associations even existed and what they were for and how I could use them, you know? And to me it's a great tragedy of my career that I didn't figure that out sooner. And it's funny, because I've done a few of these interviews now, and every time I ask somebody "How do people learn more?" They always mention an association, and I wish I would have asked that question when I was younger to people who were experienced in different fields.Chris: Yeah. It's like--so many people that go to the associations, it's part of the same goal, you know? They're all trying to reach the same goal, but then what they're doing [is] they're trying to look for new ideas from other people, and it's just, like, a good environment, and it's not--I feel like it's different from just going to a networking event, 'cause a networking event, you have so many people with different types of goals. Some people are looking for a job. Some people are looking to network for business. So it's like... usually those don't work out, but if you go to an association, it's specifically what you need. So, like, targeted basically.Amy: Exactly, and they usually offer educational sessions at their meetings or their conferences, and so, you know, you can find something depending on what your skill level is or your experience level. You can find something that is applicable to you, and then you can network with people who have similar experience or more experience and get involved and really learn and kind of build a name for yourself within your industry just by volunteering, right?Chris: Yeah, just by volunteering. Yeah, that's a good way to really get to know the right people in there. So volunteer your time whenever you can, whether it's local or national. I highly recommended it.Amy: Excellent. So can you tell me a little bit about what you think about the current or future talent demands in marketing? Do you think that this is an industry or function that's going to need to staff up over time, or do you see it kind of leveling out or trailing off in the near future?Chris: I think that the demand is gonna get higher because more and more organizations are realizing the importance of being online and understanding what's going on. So you have many people that have been in marketing for a long time, but they've done it the traditional way, so there's still, like, a high need for people to come in to do, like, the online marketing side of it, social media and digital marketing. So that continues to grow as more and more people get online, more and more people depend on it. And I think especially since organizations these days are actually making revenue from online channels, you know? Like social media and the digital marketing channels. So it's more and more needs. So I think it's just gonna grow, but yeah, definitely understanding more than just one area of marketing is what I've seen, and if you look at many job descriptions, they're gonna ask you for those multiple areas. Not just being able to use Photoshop or just social media but e-mail marketing and, yeah, everything.Amy: Excellent. So you had mentioned that when you were at Google you were maybe one of a handful of people of color in the marketing team that you were on, and I would imagine that that's the case for a lot of people of color in different companies around the U.S. I know that there's--and I'm gonna screw up the percentage, but something like 3% of marketing executives are women or something like that. Like, a really low number. They have a whole conference around it now I think. So where can people go who maybe feel a little alone or they want to get involved but they don't want to be the only in their office? What kinds of communities exist for people of color that can help them feel connected so that they can maintain their stamina while pursuing their passion.Chris: Okay. A lot of times I think there's different organizations--and, you know, if they're part of an organization, many companies are starting to have, like, communities within their organizations, such as... I can't remember. Within Google, there's, like, Black Googlers or something like that, things that are specific to a niche within your organization so, like, people can have a different experience. I mean, even in different associations there's always--there could be subgroups, you know, that specifically target a different group of people. So I'll say it starts with the associations, and then from there figure out what the other organizations specifically on, who they are, like, what kind of culture they have.Amy: That's helpful, and I think too that the importance of employee resource groups or business resource groups or affinity networks, whatever they're called, the larger companies tend to have those, where you come in and you kind of, you know, pick a group that you feel more comfortable with and find a mentor maybe or at least, you know, know where to go for some help navigating all of the politics like you said earlier and, you know, kind of getting the inside scoop on some of the unwritten rules of the workplace, 'cause those rules change wherever you go, right?Chris: Yep, yep. Or you can always create one too. [laughs]Amy: That is true. So I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about your work as a speaker. We talked a little bit earlier about impostor syndrome, and I'll get to that in just a second, but as a speaker, you know, we have to position ourselves as experts, and the term "expert," right, there's no national certification of expertise that you go and you take a test and then somebody says, "Here, you're an expert. You can use that in your brand or your title." So what do you think makes someone an expert in their field? What makes you an expert in your field?Chris: When it comes to being an expert, I would say it's really just experience. Just, like, what kind of specific experience have you had when it comes to what you're talking about or what you're doing? Because there's a lot of--I mean, literally you could just wake up tomorrow and call yourself an expert. [both laugh] So how can you stand out from everybody else? And what I always recommend is specifically getting experience. I mean, sometimes people say they can't get a job so they can't get the experience to become an expert, but you can always volunteer. You can always, like, do stuff for free for an organization. So for instance, when it comes to marketing, I've done stuff for free for organizations just to get experience, and then once I learn it and once I get good at it, then I can say that I'm an expert, you know? That's when I know the ins and outs of it. And then you realize that you're more advanced than the audience that you're trying to reach as well. For example, if your audience is small businesses and they have nothing to do with marketing and I'm a marketing person, if I've worked with an organization for about six months or a year where I help them with their marketing and then help them drive traffic or revenue, then I'm an expert to the small business. Amy: Oh, I love that. So you see expertise on a continuum, and so long as you're ahead of the person you're talking to, you're an expert.Chris: Yeah, yeah. And then also experience though. [both laugh] So I'm not saying read an article and then you're an expert, but [laughs]--Amy: Right, actually knowing how to do it. No, I think that's brilliant. So have you struggled with impostor syndrome yourself?Chris: Yeah, I think so. I mean, sometimes--I'm trying to remember what impostor syndrome is. It's "not good enough," right?Amy: Yeah. It's the feeling that, like, the more you know, the more you feel like you don't know, so you never quite feel like you've arrived, or you feel like--the way I've experienced it is I feel like people are going to find out that I'm just faking it. And so, you know, the way that manifests itself for me is I have, like, a wall full of certifications to prove to myself that I'm not just faking it, right? [laughs] So what does that look like for you?Chris: Oh, okay. Yeah, that does happen, you know? Like, I feel like, depending on your--I mean, for me it was more so like since I was younger I started doing some of that speaking stuff, like, younger, and then of course being a minority I kind of have to say--I feel like I have to say every single thing that I've done, you know, because if I don't they're gonna go, "Oh, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about," you know? [laughs] So yeah, it does feel that way sometimes. It does feel like that sometimes, but I start to remember that "Okay, I do have legitimate experience," and I start to look at what have been the testimonials? You know, what have been the reviews? After the event, I look at the reviews. That kind of helps me understand that "Okay, I feel like I am at that level that I'm at right now." But yeah, I feel like it's a constant struggle, especially when you're trying to move forward. So, like, when I first started, I was so used to doing, like, really small events that I thought "Okay, I can't do an event with more than 10 people, you know?" [laughs] Like, and then realizing, like, just trying stuff and realizing "It's okay." You gotta grow somehow, right?Amy: Yeah. No, I think that's great, and I like that, that, you know, you just keep growing and just keep taking the steps. I think that's so important. Do you feel like you have to clear a higher bar than others? You said that, you know, you feel like because you're black you have to, like, list everything you've ever done so that people understand that you're the real deal. Do you feel like that there's a bar and then there's a bar for you that's higher?Chris: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I definitely feel that way, 'cause you have to--'cause yeah, I look at it as... when people see, like, people like myself, since I'm black, you know, they don't really see this type of person in that position, you know? Like, you don't see that many minority speakers out there, or even just like I said, like, when it comes to marketing and tech companies. Since they don't see it that much, they probably automatically assume that you don't know what you're talking about, you know? [laughs] There's been times where I walk in to the presentation and people don't think I'm the presenter. You know, they probably don't think I'm the presenter, so I have to, like, really show up and meet all of the expectations, and I feel like I have to do a little bit more too. So I gotta kinda give 110%, you know, instead of just trying to give an 80% or 70%, you know, and getting by. And people can get by, you know, but if you're in a different category, I feel like you do have to put a little bit more effort in. And I think one challenge is that initial reaction too. Initially when people see you, then after they hear your content and everything like that, that's when they kind of understand "Okay, this person is an expert," but the challenge is the beforehand. You know? What matters is before, right? In order to get a client, you still have to present yourself effectively and show that you know what you're doing. So that's where the challenge is. Like, everybody can like you, but it's like you still have to get that client first, right? [laughs] So there's the bar, right? Yep.Amy: Yeah. No, I definitely--I can definitely see how that's true, and I think the more differences a person has relative to the larger group the higher that bar gets and the more hurdles you have to clear and the more you have to prove yourself, you know? And that can be exhausting. I was a woman in tech for 20 years, and, you know, I would have men much older than me--when I was younger at least--who would say, "Oh, you're a really good programmer for a girl." I was like, "Hm. You know what? I fixed your code." [laughs] But they didn't want to hear that, right? So yeah, I can see how that could be a life-long frustration. Now that I'm older, I think that it's not as bad for me personally, but, you know, I'll never outgrow being a woman, right? I still get that occasionally, right? And we'll never outgrow our race, and we'll never outgrow our ethnicity or, you know, coming from another country or having a disability. Like, these are things that, you know, are a struggle over and over and over, but, you know, I long for the day when we can just all be taken on our merits and given the same benefit of the doubt.Chris: Yeah, that's--hopefully one day, right?Amy: We're a long way. [both laugh] We'll see, we'll see. So I want to ask you, in the time that we have left, to finish two sentences for me. The first one is "I feel included when ________."Chris: All right. So... I feel included when I'm informed about new opportunities. Amy: Ooh, I like that. Okay, and "When I feel included, I _________."Chris: When I feel included, I work better with the group and I give back.Amy: I love it. And I think that's true with most people, right? Most of us, we want to know what's going on, we want to give back, but if we don't feel safe to be ourselves, we can't put ourselves out there like that.Chris: Yeah. You want to feel included, right?Amy: Absolutely, absolutely. Chris, thank you so much for your time today.Chris: Yeah, it was great. Thanks.Amy: Okay, thanks.Chris: It was awesome stuff.

In our third See It to Be It podcast interview, Amy C. Waninger chats with PraiseWorks Health and Wellness founder Lynnis Woods-Mullins, a holistic living and wellness expert who focuses on helping women ages 40 and over embark on a successful journey to total wellness for their mind, body, and spirit using holistic practices, nutrition, and fitness. She shares with us how she navigated the transition from corporate America to where she is now and a lot more. These discussions highlight professional role models in a variety of industries, and our goal is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals. Check out some of the SI2BI blogs we've posted while you wait for the next episode!Connect with Lynnis on LinkedIn and Facebook! She also has Twitter and Instagram!Check out the PraiseWorks website!Read about "Power Up, Super Women: Stories of Courage and Empowerment" on Amazon!Visit Living-Corporate.com!TRANSCRIPTAmy: Lynnis, thank you so much for joining me today.Lynnis: Well, thank you so much for asking me. It's an honor to be able to share with you, Amy.Amy: Well, it's an honor to speak with you. So I was wondering if you could share a little bit about the work that you do. I know that you're a health and wellness expert and a wellness coach, and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what that means, what do your clients look like, what do you do for your clients, and we'll start there.Lynnis: Okay. Well, I'm a certified health and wellness coach, and I specialize in working with women over 40, teaching them how to be well and how to live a more holistic life, and I do that through my online magazine. I have online classes. I also have coaching services for groups and 1-on-1. I have a podcast and webcast, and I also just recently wrote a book, as you know, and I focus on helping women make incremental lifestyle changes that can give them big results. I have a weight loss, or what I like to call a weight release, program. I also talk with women specifically about hormonal changes. You know, things that happen as we age and how we can minimize the impact of the aging process. I talk a lot about stress reduction. That's my specialty, stress reduction and anxiety and depression, of which I suffered from all three. And so I really focus on those kinds of things that happen as we age from 40 on, because after 40 there's some things that start happening that are really interesting, and many times you think perhaps you're prepared for that because you've heard your girlfriends talk about it. You might have not heard your mom talk about it, but you witnessed certain things. I'm telling you, everyone is different and every experience is different, and what I really try to lay out to women is that they're not alone in terms of going through that experience, but sometimes it can be a lonely experience because while you're going through it, a lot of times it's you get this inclination to [?] out and suffer in silence by yourself. You don't have to do that. And so my job or my role is to familiarize women with all of the different symptoms that might happen and to give them some encouragement to get knowledge on how to deal with it, because I truly believe that knowledge is power.Amy: You know, as you're speaking, I'm reminded of this thought that I've had repeatedly, that to be a woman is to live in stages of secrets and shame. Lynnis: That's true.Amy: When we're very young, you know, we get the talk about what's gonna happen to our bodies in adolescence, and we're pulled aside, and it's all in very hushed tones and, you know, like, girls passing tampons, you know, like, in middle school. You know, like, you don't want to be found out, right? And then, you know, in our teens, 20s, even our 30s, you know, pregnancy is--there's a lot of mystery surrounding pregnancy, right? Women throughout history have gotten pregnant. Women throughout history have miscarried. Women throughout history have had complications with their pregnancies. But we don't hear those stories. We sort of--like you said, we suffer in silence. We suffer alone. We don't talk about it. We're taught to feel shame about it. And I guess it never occurred to me that I'm on the cusp of yet another, you know, quietly--"go quietly into the night" sort of process and that that's another aspect of our lives as women that we don't talk publicly about.Lynnis: No, you're absolutely right. And yeah, suffering in silence is really true on so many different levels, but I can just share from my own experience. Each time that I got pregnant--and I have four daughters, they're all grown. They're all in their 30s and stuff. Well, one will be 27--each time that I got pregnant, I didn't tell anybody right away. My first pregnancy I wasn't married, so I didn't tell anybody, not even my mom, until I was, like, about seven months pregnant. I lived in a different city, so I just didn't want to talk [about it] because I wasn't married, you know? And I invited her to come and see me for the weekend, and she knew as soon as I opened the door. It might have been because my face was fuller, 'cause normally I'm a really, really thin person. You know, that might have been it, but she said she felt it even before that time. And I think with the other ones I didn't want to tell anybody because I didn't want to be judged by my family or my friends. I was married, but it was like, "Again?" Because they were so close together. One of my daughters--the two middle ones, were born 17 months apart. And, you know, I just didn't want to deal with that. "Don't you know about birth control?" and "How can you be a career person?" and all that, so I didn't tell anybody, and I look back at that and now I'm thinking, "How silly." I was married. It certainly was my prerogative if I wanted to have children. They were not planned. They were all, you know, wonderful "uh-ohs," but I think my biggest thing was that this went against the grain in terms of all of my preparation when it comes to climbing the corporate ladder and here I am pregnant again. I was pregnant basically for 10 years. Basically, you know? Because the ages of my children now are 27, 30, 32, and 34. So pretty close together, and I just didn't want to deal with that "Again?" kind of thing, so I didn't tell anybody. I look back at that now and I'm thinking, you know, "How much did we as women, no matter what the age is, become vested in people's opinion of us?" You know? We spend a lot of time preoccupied with that, and it's very painful because of course we can't read their minds and many times what we're thinking they may be thinking--which many times they're not even close to that, they're too busy with their own stuff--is really just projections on how we feel about ourselves, and I think the biggest message that I'd like to try to send to women in particular over 40, even at that stage when we should be so wise and know it all and know it more, is the need for self-love, because we just don't do that. We are our harshest critics. We don't give ourselves a break, and our breaks--if we do give ourselves a break, there's all this [?] that goes with it. There's that shame and guilt. And in order to really be well, there comes a point in your life when you really have to make a decision to let all that go and to be more present and stop worrying so much about what happened in the past, because what happened in the past really has added to who you are as a person, and that's a good thing. And not to be too preoccupied with the future or the lack of it, depending on your age, because, you know, the future never comes. Tomorrow never comes. It's always today today. And learning how to be more present in terms of your day-to-day existence.Amy: So thank you for that. I think that's absolutely true, and I would imagine that a lot of wellness comes from mindfulness and presence. Can you tell me a little bit about how you got into this work?Lynnis: Sure. I have another life. I have had three lives, maybe. Three main lives. You know, [?] this was my third life. Before this, my second life I was a human resource professional and did very well and got up to the, you know, director level, and I had the equivalent of what could be considered the American dream. I was married, had four kids, a big house in [?] and kids going to school and doing well, you know, husband very successful. You know, all of the stuff that you would think is supposed to be the American dream, and being a woman of color even more so, you know? As an African-American, I was earning the upper .5% for an African-American woman and for a woman in general the upper 2%. So I was doing well. But there was something missing in my life, and I had developed an anxiety disorder and didn't even know it, and my anxiety disorder was based upon post-traumatic stress, and my post-traumatic stress was based upon an incident that happened in my life that was a total surprise. I didn't know how to quite deal with it, and my really dealing with had to do with, you know, controlling the outcome. No matter what happened, I was gonna control it. Whether it was controlling my coworkers, my kids, my husband, my neighbors, my friends, you know? My life in general. I was going to control it in such a way where there would never be anymore surprises, which of course is insane.Amy: Yeah, that's not possible.Lynnis: Right? That's insane. It's not possible. So over time, after 27 years of that, I finally had an epiphany--or a breakdown, whatever you want to call it--to the point where I had to take a sabbatical, and I left this wonderful job for a year with the idea of going back, and after a year of reflection and going to--you know, really digging down deeper, I realized that I wasn't happy and I needed to figure out what would make me happy. And in my exploration of what kinds of things I could do to heal myself from this anxiety disorder, because I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and they put me on medication. And I realize now that I was never good at pills and things. I've always been interested in nutrition. I was a dancer in my first life, you know, and I was a nutrition minor in college, so I decided that I was going to find out more about this mind, body, spirit wellness movement, which started, you know, a while back. I got started in 2009. This has been almost 10 years now that I've been in business. It'll be 10 years in April of 2019. So I decided that I wanted to figure out a way to help women not go through what I went through and to begin to take a look at how can we be well in our mind, body, and spirit and to make that our quest? Our quest to be well in our minds, in our bodies, and in our spirits, because it's a continuum. It's not all about the body. It's not all about your spirit. It's not all about your mind. It is a continuum, and if any of those things aren't being cared for, then we're off-kilter and we risk the possibility of being unwell. And so that's how it all started. I put together a company called PraiseWorks, because at that time I thought I would teach women over 40 how to dance, praise dance. I am a classically trained ballet dancer. I have danced professionally. And then when I got in my late 40s, I started doing praise dance at my church. So I was gonna teach them how to dance, and I quickly found out after my first few classes that these women needed so much more than just dance. I had women who were [?] survivors. I had women who were dealing with empty nests and [?] relationships [?] that ended through divorce. Women who had high cholesterol, obesity, diabetes, and hormonal. Menopause. All of the things that you begin to deal with as you age, and so I thought "Okay, what else can I do?" And so that's when I went back, got my certification in nutrition and health and holistic living and yoga and Pilates and all this stuff, and came up with these different virtual programs that can help women to be well. And it's been really interesting. It's been quite an adventure, because one of the things that I didn't anticipate, which I'm learning now, is that a lot of the women who were my age--'cause at that time I was ... 51 when I [?]. I still had another 15 years or so of working for corporate America. So everybody thought I was nuts. "How could you just leave, you know, a six-figure salary like that and start your own thing from scratch?" But, you know, I think in many ways I saved my life. I could have still been there, still been working, probably doing okay, making lots of money, but would have had the anxiety disorder or would have gained a whole lot of weight as a result of the medication they wanted to put me on and probably would have began to start falling apart, because any time you're on any kind of medication, if it's not organic or holistic--any kind of pharmaceutical--it fixes normally the symptom and not the causation, and it causes other symptoms later on. So I feel like I saved my own life, and in the process of saving my own life I'm hoping that I've helped women begin to save theirs in terms of making other choices for their lives. And so that began my goal to really get the word out, virtually at first, even though like I said it was a challenge 'cause a lot of women my age, you know, weren't really into, you know, social media and things like that back in 2009, but that's changed over the years. [?] to not just inspire women 40 and over, but my children are saying "Mom, millennials, we need this kind of stuff. We need to know." They're on a quest and searching, and I never really thought about that, but they're right. So now I'm beginning to think about approaching--if you want to get to my age, [laughs] the ripe-old age of almost 62, then you're gonna want to do some of this stuff that, you know, I've [?] over the last 10 years.Amy: Absolutely. It's so much easier to prevent diabetes, heart disease and those kinds of things than it is to recover from them. High blood pressure, high cholesterol. The list goes on, right?Lynnis: And so many of those kinds of diseases, so many of them are lifestyle choices. And then coupled with the fact that growing older your body is gonna go through some changes anyway, and if you had decided to make a lifestyle choice to exercise more, to eat differently, to lower your stress levels, then your aging process could have been a lot more of a positive experience, and I'm trying to send that message out to women and all of the people who love them that there is a different way, that you don't have to go down that road.Amy: And I think, you know, going back to what you said about millennials, I just hearing millennial burnout is such a problem. You know, millennials and Gen Z are taking on so much stress because, you know, for example, college has gotten--the cost of college has gotten out of control. The return on that investment has diminished almost to nothing for a lot of people, and so they're trying to pay back more debt with worse--you know, with lower income than their parents, and then there's still the pressure of "When are you gonna start a family? When are you gonna buy a house?" Right? All of those expectations that we put on people basically from the 1940s, right? "When are you going to fulfill the American dream that's almost 100 years old?"Lynnis: Which is really the American nightmare, trying to achieve that right now, 'cause right now I'm visiting my daughter in D.C., and first of all, I'm immensely proud of her because she has done this by herself, and sometimes I would feel guilty about not being able to help her more once she finished her education, but I'm glad ultimately that she went this way, because I'm not always gonna be here. My husband's not gonna always be here. I had three other daughters I had to try to get through their phases of education, but it's interesting, the lifestyle that she's living is great, but it's extremely expensive. You know, her rent is more than my mortgage--and I live in California, so I don't have a cheap mortgage. But I look at how these--I don't want to say young people. I hate using that phrase because it makes me seem like I'm 1,000 years old, but I'm looking at how they're living and the pace within which you're living. I mean, they never--they're on all the time. They never relax. Even their social thing is--I don't want to say it's a competition, but it's stressful, you know, getting to the place because of the traffic, finding a place to park if you are driving. Or being in public transportation, having to be aware of your surroundings all the time. Then you get there and you have to deal with in your mind, "Okay, how much can I afford?" You know, when the bill comes, and then in-between that you're constantly on your phone. While you're talking to your friends and stuff, you're on the phone, you're doing all this stuff, and I'm thinking, "Wow, this is a lot of fun, but it's stressful fun." There's never a point where people just stop and just be, unless [?], like, "Yoga time," or "Medication time," you know? There's not--there doesn't seem to be a point of really disconnecting. And you're right, we in this society, no matter what age we are, have a tendency to want to meet the expectations of whatever was set before us. You know, for me it was being raised in the 70s and trying to meet the expectations of where my parents were, because they happened to have been college-educated, which was, you know, very unusual back then, because they were still in the early 50s. But now the expectation is my children do the same, but I realize that two of my girls, who had children in their late 20s, it might be a little bit more difficult for them to achieve the same level as I have, because times are different. Times are different. And so I think that part of being well is realizing that and giving yourself a break and realizing that these times are different, and you have to set your own expectations based upon what it is you want for your life. I mean, if you enjoy that pace and that's where you're at that's fine, but if you know that there's something else that you want to do, that's okay too. And with the college experience, I'm telling you--I've always felt this way, but I especially feel this way now. I wish we had more of the European model that gives people opportunities for apprenticeships and things like that, because college is not for everyone, and that does not mean that they're dumb or stupid or any of that. Ask Bill Gates. He'll tell you that, okay? And some of the other folks sitting up there in Google right now. They don't necessarily have, you know, grad degrees. The idea of getting a degree and then going on and getting the grad degree, because you don't know what else you're going to do, and then going on and getting your Ph.D., and then, you know, [?], I don't think that was the expectation at the time. So I think maybe perhaps we need to be more--I hate to use the word authentic. It's become such a buzzword. But more true to ourselves and that inner desire and tapping into that, because I do believe where your passion is, so lies your treasure. Amy: That's a beautiful sentiment. I love that. So for people who are where you were a few years ago, still climbing the corporate ladder, still trying to secure the bag, right, what can you offer them in terms of--what are the signs that they're approaching an unhealthy place? What do they need to watch for?Lynnis: Well, never disconnecting. For me it was two cell phones and a pager and my laptop, and this started back in '92 and went on until 2008, and I was raising kids at the same time and traveling. At one time I was about 60, 70% travel. I would make a turn-around--I would do a red-eye... an early-morning flight to Texas from California and take a red-eye back to be able to get there in time before they woke up the next morning, and then I would work from home because--I would, you know, dial into a landline or whatever back in the 90s, but never disconnecting and thinking that, by never disconnecting, you are being the best that you can be, that you're really doing a great job. The reality is more than likely you're not doing a great job. More than likely mistakes are going to happen. Disconnecting, and you start seeing those little mistakes pop up that, you know, normally you would not make. That's a sign, especially when you know that this a job that you're prepared for and that you're confident in and all of a sudden things start happening. Another sign is the inability to sleep, to be able to disconnect enough to sleep to calm down. Or if you're sleeping, your sleep is constantly interrupted by waking up, going to the bathroom several times during the course of the night, not having a deep sleep. That's a sign. Another sign is when you begin to realize that you don't have any relationships, and I'm not talking about love relationships. I'm talking about friendships. Your friendships are also tied to work, which is not a bad thing, but there was a time where you didn't work at that place and you had friends outside of work or friends outside of your profession. So disconnecting from relationships that aren't work-related. Also not being able to just sit and be. Feeling the need to always be doing something. And I'm not talking--and you can sit and be and binge watch, but you're still doing something, but the idea of just being in a state of being, if you're having problems with any of those things, that's a sign of burnout. Anxiety, which is a common thing that most Americans suffer from that no one is really talking about. My anxiety was so bad for almost 10 years that I thought it was normal. I started drinking coffee because of my anxiety, believe it or not. It seemed to be the only thing that would take away the scary feeling. The scary feeling was I would be going--I would wake up in the morning and it would feel like I was going straight downhill on a roller coaster with no restraints. I mean, like, going down the hill and nothing holding me in, but I'm still in the chair. Somehow I'm not falling out, but can you imagine how scary that is, thinking that you might fall out? That. It was the fear of the unknown. That all came from my post-traumatic stress that I found out later that I had as a result of not really going through the process of grieving. And the post-traumatic stress, and I talk about it in the book, it all came from how I found out that my mother had died. She was hit by a fire truck on her way to work. She was 56 years old. And how I found out was really traumatic, very traumatic, and I had just had a baby, 5 weeks old, and I had a 17-month old and a just turned 4-year-old. So it was--and I was on maternity leave at the time, but I was a regional manager, and I had, like, three or four branches I was in charge of, and what had happened was on the day that she died I had just seen her, and I said I would see her later and went to my office to show everybody my baby. And this was before cell phones. And my dad, I guess I must have mentioned it to him when I was over at the house in the morning, 'cause he was on his way to work too--'cause my parents were in my mid-50s. I was 31. And so I think I had mentioned to them that I was going by my office to show off the baby, and he called me there and he said, "I want you to go home," to the family home, because my grandfather was visiting from Georgia, my dad's dad, and he was just beginning to exhibit signs of dementia. So he wanted me to go home and stay with Grandaddy and that he would meet me there at the house a little bit later 'cause, he said, "Your mom's been in an accident. I don't know how serious it is, but I need you to go home." So I said okay, and, you know, I had a feeling something was wrong, and I had left my organizer--back then they had Ben Franklin organizers. I left my Ben Franklin organizer at work, and we didn't have cell phones back then. Didn't have any [?] numbers. Couldn't remember any numbers 'cause I was so scared. I suddenly wasn't feeling right. So I called my mom's office and, you know, Lucille [?], my mom's secretary, and I said, "Listen, I need to call someone to come and stay with me and I don't have any numbers with me," and she said, "Oh, yeah, I guess you would want to have someone come stay with you. You know, we are so sorry. We loved your mother." And I was like "...E-D? Loved? Past tense? You mean she's gone?" And that's when she realized, "Oh, my God! Oh, my God!" And then she dropped the phone, and I could hear--then I could hear people in the background crying. 'Cause I mean, it had been, like, not even a whole hour since this had happened, and that's when I began immediately to never have that shock again. Can you imagine? I mean, even now when I think about it I can still feel that... that decision. Boom. Because I have babies to take care of. I've got a job to do. I have a husband. I have a home. And my dad, I've got to be there for him, and I've got to be there for my sister who's still at school, at 17, graduating in a few months, turning 18 next week. I gotta call my sister in LA who just finished her master's [?]. I gotta take care of this stuff, so I don't have time to feel," and, you know, that's where [?], and that's where the anxiety sort of began, that moment, and that was definitely post-traumatic stress. And so I write about that and what I learned from that. They gotta read the book [?].Amy: That's right. So the book that you're mentioning is called Power Up Super Women: Stories of Courage and Empowerment, and Lynnis is one of 17 authors of this anthology, and I'm another author on this anthology. My story is not nearly as traumatic or dramatic, but all of these stories are designed to help women kind of come to terms with who they are, what they want out of life, and how to go about getting it, and there's some truly, truly inspirational stories in this. Lynnis, I have two more questions for you today. I wanted to ask you to finish this sentence. "I feel included when ______."Lynnis: I feel included when I'm contributing something of value to society, to my friends, to my family. I want to be of value. I just don't want to be taking up space. I don't want just because I am successful to be what defines me. I want that success to be tied to adding value, you know? Adding value to someone's life, adding value to someone's experience. I want to build a legacy. I just don't want to be successful and make a lot of money but no one remembers what I did. And I don't know why I tear up [?], but at 62, you know, that's something that's really important to me, to be of value.Amy: Yeah, to leave a lasting impact. I understand that, absolutely. Now can you finish this sentence? "When I feel included, I _______."Lynnis: When I feel included, I feel a sense of joy.Amy: Oh, that's beautiful.Lynnis: Yes. I never really experienced what true joy was until I left corporate America, quite frankly. And it's not that I'm saying corporate America is a bad thing. Corporate America is just a small sliver of what defines you, and if you can arrive at that early on in your career, then you'll be okay, because the real joy you're going to feel are the things that come at you unexpectedly, and in corporate America you don't want any surprises, but in life you do. You want good surprises in terms of, you know, the experiences that you have, and so yeah, it brings me great joy when I am able to feel included that way.Amy: Well, Lynnis, I can tell that you're having an impact, not just on your clients but on everyone around you. You have so much--you exude joy, you exude peace, and I am so grateful to know you. Thank you so much.Lynnis: Well, thank you, Amy. It's really an honor to talk with you. I'm so glad that you asked me. This is exciting.

In our first See It to Be It podcast interview, Amy C. Waninger chats with La'Wana Harris, a global diversity and inclusion consultant, author and coach who has dedicated her career to aligning performance with business strategy. These discussions highlight professional role models in a variety of industries, and our goal is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals. Check out some of the SI2BI blogs we've posted while you wait for the next episode!Find out more about La'Wana's book, Diversity Beyond Lip Service, on Amazon!Learn more about the organizations she mentioned, WOCIP and HBA!Connect with her on LinkedIn and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and I'm really excited to talk to y'all about something really important today. You know we try to mix it from time to time. We have our full episodes and we have B-Sides. You know, we'll have guest hosts. We do different things. We do listener letters, you know what I'm saying? We have something else special for y'all today, and what it's called is the See It To Be It series, okay? This is an interview series highlighting professional role models in a variety of industries. The goal of this series is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals. Many of y'all should remember Amy C. Waninger. She is the author of Networking Beyond Bias, and she was a guest on the Living Corporate podcast in Season 1 to talk about effective allyship. Well, Amy has continued on with Living Corporate as a writer, and she's also blessed us with a partnership in getting a special series out. So what you're gonna hear is Amy talking to a variety of black and brown professionals, as I said at the top, from a variety of industries, and it's gonna be really cool because it's really gonna zoom in from a technical perspective on what they do while at the same time hopefully inspiring folks who may not see themselves in an industry to actually see themselves, hence the title "See It To Be It," you know what I'm saying? All right, so with that being said, I'm gonna go ahead and dip. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and an amazing minority professional. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Hi, La'Wana. Thank you for joining me.La'Wana: Hi. Thank you for having me.Amy: Sure thing. I'm really excited to talk to you today about your experience in the pharmaceutical industry. Can you tell me a little bit about what you do and how you got started there?La'Wana: Sure. I actually just finished my career in the pharmaceutical industry, and I'm taking some time to explore launching a book as well as doing some consulting. So after about two decades, I'm looking forward to a new chapter. While in the industry, I started in sales and then had a chance to work through some training, leadership development, government affairs, market access, a number of different areas, trying to get a 360 degree view of the business. And I was very fortunate to have all of those different experiences with just two companies, Johnson and Johnson and Sanofi, a French-owned pharmaceutical company.Amy: Oh, that's fantastic. And so what attracted you to the pharmaceutical industry in the first place?La'Wana: A number of things. Well, my degree's in biology, and so I've always just been fascinated by science and in particular life sciences, and I also had an opportunity to not only use my passion for science but then also integrate that with my interest in business. So I had an opportunity to both live out my passion but then also pursue my professional interest around business, and the two integrated well within the pharmaceutical industry.Amy: That's great, and I love that you said that you took all of these different roles and got, you know, a 360 degree view of your industry. I think that's--it's exciting to me when somebody does that, whatever industry they're in, to see it from all different angles and really understand it inside and out. What was something you learned about the pharmaceutical industry that surprised you?La'Wana: Well, a number of things. I would say around--if I looked at specifically around things that were surprising, it was around the impact that we're able to have on a person's life and the far-reaching impact around the world, because, in particular with the last company that I worked with, there was a number of therapies for rare diseases, and looking at how you literally change a person's life with the therapies that you have, and it was surprising to me, not that the therapies could help, but just that the amount and just the gravity of the impact that we're having on a day-to-day basis. And then personally, for me, I went through a tragic event where my daughter suffered a stroke at the age of 17.Amy: Oh, no.La'Wana: Yes. And at the time, the therapy that she was given--and she's fine now, but the therapy that she was given was a product from my company, and so, you know, it's not just we hear about patient stories and testimonials and all of the wonderful things that happen. I lived it, and, you know, I don't think you can have any greater impact than that.Amy: Yeah. Being a part of the process of saving your own child's life or quality of life is a pretty amazing experience that not many of us get. That's phenomenal, and, you know, it's a good reminder that everybody is somebody's baby, right? La'Wana: Absolutely.Amy: That's great. So if somebody's not in the pharmaceutical industry and they're looking for more information on maybe where they could start or what skills might transfer, where do you recommend they start their research?La'Wana: Yes. Well, there's a number of places if someone is looking to--and it depends on where they want to enter the industry. So if they're looking in sales, there are a number of certifications now that are available where they can get some formal training as well as obviously using what I call Uncle Google, which will give you tons of tips and those kinds of things, and if they're looking to enter at different professional levels such as medical and those other pieces, then obviously they would work through some of the associations and societies respective to their field or discipline.Amy: Okay. And for--since the audience for the article series is primarily young people of color, are there resources or organizations or affinity groups within those associations to help people of color feel a little less alone in what I would imagine is a pretty white male-dominated industry. La'Wana: Yes, and your imagination is pretty spot-on. [laughs] So it's a lot less imagination than reality, you know? But there are a number of really genuine, like-minded people that are working to change that, and that is a part of what I will spend my time doing until I decide to retire completely is working with people of color and helping them navigate their careers and path to success. In particular to pharma, one I would highly recommend for women is Women of Color in Pharma, and Women of Color in Pharma is a new association, relatively new association, that is specifically working with women of color and helping them bridge the gap and providing them and supporting them throughout their career. So that would be one, and then also we have the Healthcare Businesswomen's Association. Again, both of those are for women, however men are of course encouraged to support as allies and stand and support with the women because, you know, we can't do it alone. We all have to work together. And then if they're looking specifically for, say, career or some skill-based training, there are a number of associations there. Individual consultants as well. If you look at some of the pharmaceutical companies themselves, they have a number of resources on their company websites that they can go in and first-hand learn more about what the organizations are doing. And then the last one would be the ERGs. Some of the progressive ERGs are actually reaching out and putting out very good messaging to help give some clues for people of color and those who may not be or may be underrepresented within their respective companies.Amy: Okay. And ERGs, by that you mean employee resource groups, and those are typically affinity groups or affinity or ally groups within companies.La'Wana: Absolutely. The affinity groups, not only employee resource groups but also business resource groups as well.Amy: Okay. And so I want to take a step back for just a moment and think about--there's so much in the news lately about the lack of medical research and the lack of case studies and really in-depth understanding of how certain diseases may manifest differently in different populations, how the symptoms might look different. One of the ones that I saw most recently was how anxiety disorders manifest among women of color and black women in particular and that those symptoms don't always look like the symptoms that doctors are told to look for in people who are suffering from anxiety. You know, women with heart disease is another one where women have different symptoms of heart disease than men, and so it stands to reason to me to me that it's not only a benefit to people of color to get involved in this industry for their own careers and their own growth because there's a lot of opportunity there, but there's also a tremendous amount of opportunity for pharmaceutical companies to get more perspectives on what they should be researching, how they should be researching, and who should be included in those conversations. Can you speak a little bit about that from your own experience? La'Wana: Sure. I will tell you though I have to take a step back before we even get to the point of treatment, because pharmaceutical organizations as well as the health care industry in general first needs to build trust, because, as you know, without going into detail, there are a number of real situations where there's reason to distrust the health care industry, whether it be pharmaceutical or otherwise, and without going into all of that history, the first piece is once we are--the industry is able to build trust with populations of color and people of color, then they'll have those folks willing to participate in clinical trials, because it starts there. These therapies are based on trials, and so there are a number of organizations and people who are working towards increasing the representation of people of color in clinical trials, but then also making sure that those therapies, as we move more and more towards therapies that are customized to individuals, then we'll have the representation to see those advanced therapies really have the impact across all of the different people demographics. And to your point about understanding, absolutely. If you have people around the table from all different people groups, then when therapies are introduced or when you find that there opportunities for business development, even looking at which therapies you may pursue, what your pipeline looks like, all of those various pieces, when you have well-represented diversity around the table, then you're better able to meet those needs, and what we're finding now--even though of course we're talking about the actual treatment of patients, when you look at the development of business, you're seeing more and more large pharmaceutical companies going into emerging markets. Now, how do you go into an emerging market if no one around the table has been there? So yes, not only is it needed for the actual therapies themselves, it's needed for business and sustainability.Amy: Absolutely. And I would imagine the ERGs and BRGs play a large role in that, in helping companies identify those companies and tailor maybe their messaging or their approach to those opportunities as well.La'Wana: Well, yes and. [both laugh] I say yes and because they CAN. Now, whether or not they're actually being utilized that way, that depends on the organization because every organization is in a different place on their respective diversity and inclusion journey. So you'll have some organizations that are more savvy, more sophisticated, they actually have the business working hand-in-hand with the ERGs or BRGs, and they're utilizing them in that manner. Then you have others where the ERGs and even some BRGs are more about social activity and awareness. Now, both are needed, it's just that one is on the early end of the spectrum when you look at diversity and inclusion maturity and the other is further along and more sophisticated. So yes is the answer that it should be that way, and that is one of the ideal ways of really leveraging that population, but it's not happening in all cases.Amy: No, that's understandable, and I think that's true across all industries where, you know, companies are maybe, you know, not as far along on the path as they ought to be or would like to be. I hate to use ought to be or should language, but I certainly think that they should be there, right? [laughs] We should have been working on this from the beginning. This shouldn't be something that "Oh, well, you know, it's--we're almost in 2020, and now we're gonna start including people from our communities in our decision-making." It's crazy that it's taken this long, but--[laughs]La'Wana: It's mind-boggling.Amy: It is.La'Wana: You know? And I mentioned the book earlier, and I'll go ahead and just note that here, is that that's why I wrote the book. The book is Diversity Beyond Lip Service: A Coaching Guide for Challenging Bias, and that, what you just said, is one of the pieces that's at the heart of the book. It's time to move beyond lip service. We've been talking about diversity and inclusion for decades, and the reality is, and the data bears out, the fact that the things that we saw the barriers, they're not true barriers. There's more than enough women to have positions in leadership and be on boards. There's more than enough people of color who are qualified applicants and able to do a stellar job and performance. That's not the real issue. So to your point, yes, we've been talking about it, and we've actually had some action towards moving the needle, it's just that we're not seeing the results that we should at this point, and it's time to put the accountability measures in place the same as we would for any other business metric that's underperforming.Amy: Absolutely. Thank you for that. Now, when does your book come out? La'Wana: May. It'll be out May 28th officially, but there will be some copies, you know, available in April. So we're right there. Amy: Oh, that's wonderful. Congratulations on that. That's a huge accomplishment.La'Wana: Well, thank you. I hope it helps. [laughs]Amy: [laughs] I hope so too. I cannot wait to get my hands on the book. There are actions at the company level that need to happen and then there are actions at the individual level that need to happen, you know, in every conversation, in every room, in every meeting, and, you know, we need all hands on deck. I say at the end of my own book that, you know, look, we've got big organizations with lots of problems to solve. We can't have anybody sitting on the sidelines, and we certainly can't afford to put anyone there.La'Wana: Absolutely, and that includes white men. Amy: That absolutely does, and we need them to jump right in and, you know, grab hands with the rest of us. You know, I always liken it to a Red Rover game. Did you play Red Rover when you were a kid?La'Wana: Oh, absolutely.Amy: Yeah, and everybody joins hands--La'Wana: [?] Red Rover right over, yeah. [laughs]Amy: Yeah. You try to keep, like, the one person from breaking through, and my thing is no, everybody joins hands and runs for it, you know? We'll all get there together, and that's how it should be.La'Wana: Absolutely.Amy: Fantastic. So tell me a little bit about the consulting work that you're doing or that you plan to be doing and what's that look like. Who are your clients and how will you help them?La'Wana: Sure, absolutely. The good news is I have a clean slate. My last official day in the pharmaceutical industry was 12/31 of 2018, so I am only two months out. So I'm still answering some of those questions, but I'll tell you what my model is. What I've done thus far is to of course write the book, and I've built some companion or collateral pieces to support the book, because my vision is not just to have a book that's a good read. We have some more rich dialogue, and it's another day in the world of diversity and inclusion. My plan is to work on the how, so I have developed what I call inclusion coaching, and it focuses on diversity and inclusion from the inside out, because I feel thus far we've only focused--the majority of D&I work has focused on the outside in. We tell people what to think, what to say, how to behave, all of those things where we're giving it to them from the outside in. My approach is that we start with where a person is and for them to go deep internally to realize what are your biases, what are your preferences, how are you wired, and quite honestly, just where are you with D&I? And let's start from that place of truth and, honestly, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Not just "Oh, I believe in D&I." Okay, but then we look at some of the actions around resource allocation, hiring practices, firing practices, development and promotion, we don't see the actions line up with the words, and I believe that's because there's incongruence internally. So that's where I'm focusing. So my plan is to have the book, have the collateral pieces, and then teach people how to do this--because I'm also a professional coach--and put it in the hands of leaders, whether they be community champions, social activists or business leaders, put it in their hands and say, "Here's the method. Keep it very simple. Now, go use it. Go for it," and to put some simple language around how to do it. So my plan is to focus on everyday inclusion where folks know how to be inclusive, not just be told to be inclusive and that they have bias, because we've talked about the business case, we have developed ERGs, we have unconscious bias training. You hear about it every other day, and when something happens, the first thing we hear is "Oh, we need to have some unconscious bias training." No, we need to have some conscious bias training. Let's talk about what's really happening and the conscious choices that we make every day. So anyway, that is the plan, and I want to hand that off to all that are, you know, feel that it can help and then see that hopefully translate into some patterns of everyday behavior that's simple enough to de-mystify what we mean when we say we should all live inclusively.Amy: Oh, La'Wana, I wish you every success. I hope that your programs and your message take hold and take root and really transform people from the inside out, because we need this so badly, and it's--I hope you work us all right out of jobs, because--La'Wana: That is my goal. [both laugh]Amy: That would be wonderful, and then we could focus on doing other work. But oh, my gosh, yes, absolutely. I agree 100%, and I wish you every success. Could I get you to finish two sentences for me?La'Wana: Sure.Amy: The first is "I feel included when ______."La'Wana: I feel included when I'm able to be myself.Amy: And the second is "When I feel included, I ______."La'Wana: When I feel included, I--I'm at peace.Amy: Oh, thank you for sharing that.La'Wana: Yeah.Amy: It is so important that we all find ways to help other people be at peace in their own skin with us in the room. I think that's so important. Thank you, La'Wana. I appreciate this very much, and I look forward to so much more from you.La'Wana: Absolutely. Thank you.

In this episode, we discuss the topic of allyship and sit down with Author, Public Speaker, Educator, and CEO of Lead at Any Level, Amy C. Waninger to discuss what allyship looks like practically in the workplace.Length: 45:09Hosts: Zach | Ade#LeadatAnyLevel #Favethings #PatreonOur Patreon (and other links): https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateAmy C. Waninger's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amycwaninger/Buy Amy's book here: https://amzn.to/2ztwZaUTRANSCRIPTAde: “First, I must confess that over the past few years I’ve been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Klu Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.” This excerpt from Martin Luther King’s letter from a Birmingham jail highlights a point in his movement where he was particularly frustrated, and as he wrote here, his frustration was not with those who were very clearly against him but were with those who were, in his words, lukewarm to his cause of social equity. From my perspective, I realize that I probably will constantly face opposition. My real question is “What does true support look like?” This is Ade, and you’re listening to Living Corporate. Zach: Whoo, that was a heavy quote. Ade: Yeah. It’s--I mean, it’s kind of weird that so far we haven’t quoted Martin Luther King, Jr., I think. But, you know, whatever. Considering our show. Zach: Fair enough. So today we’re talking about effective allyship in Corporate America, and honestly I’m really excited we’re discussing this today. When you talk about Living Corporate and the fact that we’re trying to highlight the views of under-represented people in Corporate America, a lot of that has to do with how we partner and get partnership from people that don’t look like us. Ade: Right. And honestly, just the world and the context in which we’re living, it’s so weird. Like, it’s, you know, simultaneously more diverse than ever, and more voices are popping up and, you know, demanding to be heard, but at the same time there is this relentless push back, and it feels like the more voices pop up, the more there’s this, like, push to maintain the status quo, just whatever against the idea of recognizing the truth and reality of all of these different experiences. Zach: Oh, you’re absolutely right. I mean, honestly, when you talk about, like, the reality of different experiences at work, right? So at all of the different places I’ve been, every job I’ve had so far had some type of ERG or employee resource group or affinity group or whatever you want to call them, but that’s kind of where they just group people by their identities, right? Or by how they believe people identify themselves primarily, and 99% of the time--I’ll say it this way. I can count on one hand how many discussions I’ve had at work around race that weren’t like, “Oh, you’re black? Well, yeah. We have, like, this black stuff over here.” Like, “You can just go over there with all the other black people, and y’all can be black - together.” Ade: Okay, so I’m curious. Ever, over the course of your professional career, just an instance really of someone being in your corner--someone obviously being someone who did not have a marginalized identity within that context, someone who really practiced effective allyship, who had your back in tense situations. Zach: That’s a really good question. You know what? I think so. So one time I was at work, right? And every time I would be in these meetings, like for a particular project, I would get ignored. Like, I would speak up, and I’d say something. I’d give a point, I’d ask a question. I’d say something, and it would get ignored. But then the people on my project, my colleagues, they would then say what I just said, and then they would get applauded, right? Yes, and it happened all the time. Ade: Ugh. Been there. Zach: So finally this white knight--and no pun intended considering the quote that we gave at the top of the show, it was actually a good thing--this paragon of parity, this champion, he approached the project manager at the end of one of these meetings and in a hushed but direct tone said, “Hey, the way you’re treating Zach seems odd.” Ade: Uh… is that it? Zach: Yeah, that’s it. Ade: Okay. So, um, that sounds nice, and to be real, like, I am not necessarily expecting, you know, knights to come up and, you know, duel people to the death for our honor or throw on their capes and leap from one building of oppression to the next to try to save us all. I just--I feel like it’s hard enough being, like we’ve said multiple times on this show, one of the onlys in a work environment. It’s hard enough when you feel like you’re just at it by yourself. Sometimes, all it really does take is that one quiet conversation to feel like you’re not alone, and I really want to focus on the concept of people who are dedicated, not just, you know, having the idea of allyship but dedicated to using their privilege and their space and their social capital and their power in ways that benefit the people around them who lack that same social capital, and, you know, sometimes a little bit of the coded language, a little bit of the flexing of social capital muscle, goes a really, really long way. Zach: I mean, it would be great if we could speak to someone, perhaps someone who is not an ethnic minority. Someone who maybe they wrote a book about unconscious bias and diversity and inclusion in the workplace? Someone who’s had many public speaking engagements and who’s the CEO of a firm that promotes in the trenches leadership, diversity and inclusion and career management through mentoring, public speaking engagements and other offerings? Ade: Are you talking about our guest, Amy C. Waninger? Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaat? Zach: [imitating air horns] Sound Man, come on, you know what it is. Give me [inaudible]. [Sound Man complies] Ade: Ugly. Ugly. Ugly. Zach: We’re gonna get into our interview with our guest, Amy C. Waninger. Zach: And we’re back, and we said before, we have Amy C. Waninger here with us on the show today. Amy, thank you for joining us today. Amy: Thank you for having me, Zach. I’m excited to be here. Zach: Absolutely, excited to have you here. Would you mind--for those of us who don’t know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself? Amy: Absolutely. I started my career in 1999 as a software developer and, you know, kind of went through all of the bubbles and bursts in the early 2000s in IT. For about the last 10 to 12 years I’ve been in the management space, so progressive management roles in and around information technology, and in the last 10 years I’ve focused on the insurance industry. I recently started my own company, Lead At Any Level, LLC, and through Lead At Any Level I do authorship of, you know, a blog. I have a book out, as you know, and public speaking engagements, training sessions, coaching, individually consulting around career management, diversity and inclusion, and leadership skills. Zach: You have written a book called Network Beyond Bias. Can you explain the title? Amy: Okay, sure. So that--it’s kind of a long story, but I’ll try to make it as quick as I can here. So the word Beyond was really important to me. I did a--I went through a process with a woman named Erin Weed. She has a company called Evoso, and she does this process that she calls a dig, and she helps you get to a word that is powerful for you. It’s this very structured, important, detailed process around how you get to this word, and the word that I chose for myself at the end of this was the word “beyond” because beyond has a lot of power for me, you know? The idea that wherever you are today, you can get beyond. Whatever horizon you can see, you can go beyond it, and so the title comes from the need to network with diverse populations and with people, you know, with all different perspectives, and I don’t believe that we can undo our biases necessarily, and we shouldn’t ignore them. We need to accept that they’re there and then move beyond them, and the subtitle, Making Diversity A Competitive Advantage For Your Career, came from what I saw as a gap in the diversity and inclusion consulting space and even in the writing about diversity and inclusion in the corporate world that we tend to target organizations or senior leaders in that conversation and not engage people at the everyday level. You know, just everyday individual contributors that are maybe trying to move ahead in their careers, and that was important to me for a couple of reasons. Number one, I think people who--by the time they’re in the C-Suite or they’ve got the VP titles or, you know, they’re pretty high up in these large companies, I think they’re very entrenched and engaged in the way things are and not necessarily looking to change because they know how to play the game as it exists today. And, you know, for people who are struggling to get into that in-group that can be really challenging, so I wanted to focus on people who maybe haven’t made it as far as they want to go yet and want to get there but get there in a very inclusive way, and so how can individuals engage in the diversity and inclusion conversation in a way that feels authentic for them? And there’s some element of--I don’t know how to explain it. There’s some element of just because it’s the right thing to do, right? Not altruism, but doing the right thing, but also in a way that helps them move forward in their own careers, because I really feel like if we can engage tomorrow’s leaders today--and I kind of wrap up the book with this--if we can engage tomorrow’s leaders today in being more inclusive and kind of changing the way we network and changing the way these conversations happen for our careers, we can make lasting changes that will get us to, you know, get more diverse representation in the C-Suite. Zach: You know what? It’s interesting that that’s your answer because it leads me into my next question, which is actually--I’m gonna lead in by reading an excerpt from your book, okay? So I’ma read this excerpt. “In the United States, few words are more polarizing than race and racism, yet Americans suffer from constant racial tension, race-based economic disparities and institutionalized racism. If we are to change this, white Americans must listen to those experiences and perspectives that could inform and enlighten us. Our blindness to our privilege is oppressive. Our sense of entitlement is embarrassing.” So I’ve read your book. Really genuinely enjoyed. Amy: Thank you. Zach: Like, as a black man I was like, “Wow, I’m really surprised there’s a white person saying this.” Right? Like, I was very surprised. I’ve read content in the past, like from various authors, who have a similar tone, but they’re typically not white. In this you allude to allyship, so could you first expound on this excerpt and then help us understand what you mean by being an ally and being someone who listens and learns and things of that nature? Amy: Sure. So I’m gonna start by saying that I’m really grateful that you’re calling attention to this chapter. This chapter, writing that chapter about race, was the hardest part of writing the book, and the book almost didn’t get written because I knew that I couldn’t write a book about diversity and inclusion without acknowledging that I’m white, and I didn’t--I struggled so much with how to write about that in a way that was from my perspective but not exclusive of other perspectives, and I struggled with how to write it in a way that was genuine and authentic without--you know, there’s a lot wrapped up in the word “race” for everybody, and, you know, as a white woman I think that, you know, I’ve heard other white people say it’s important for us to talk about this because white folks have access to conversations and audiences that people of color do not, and I think until I wrote about this, on my blog and in my book, I didn’t really understand what that meant. So getting back to your question though, I think allyship is important because as you noted, I--you know, I exist in a white world. I mean, that’s just--that’s my reality, right? The environment that I grew up in--I grew up in southern Indiana in a rural community that was 99.9% white, non-Hispanic, and I was--you know, I was kind of the ethnic one in the room most of the time because I wasn’t German and Catholic, you know? I was different, and I wasn’t that different, right? So, you know, it’s been hard for me to get to a place where I can understand my role in the race conversation, and it wasn’t that I grew up necessarily thinking that--I didn’t grow up thinking that racism was okay. I mean, that was, you know, very ingrained in me from an early age, but what racism meant in an all-white community, it was still racism, right? Even if you weren’t racist, like, it was still a racist environment because there was no--there was no one different. So it’s been an evolution for me over, you know, the course of time, and when I wrote the chapter on race and the blog post on race, I actually reached out to a couple of people of color in my network, and I said, “I would like some feedback on this. I would like some help with this,” and Sabrina Bristow, a friend of mine from North Carolina, she does social justice work in the human services space of government, and she helped me with that chapter. And I actually--I kind of had started a little too advanced, she thought, for most white people, so I had to backtrack a little bit and include, “Okay, here are some things I’m getting right already,” right? By including people of color in my network and, you know, having genuine relationships, and going out of my way to find people and to build relationships across racial boundaries, because it’s very easy for us, for anyone, to stay in their neighborhood, to stay in their enclave, right? And we’re a very segregated society, especially--you know, I think--in the northern states I think we’re a little more segregated even because of public policy that drove segregation kind of under the--you know, under the covers. It wasn’t explicit, right? But it was perhaps--and I hate to use the word effective because it sounds positive and it’s not, but, you know, it was perhaps a more lasting segregation in the north because it was policy that was guiding it, and it was subversive policy at that. You know, in the south, where it was very explicit, it was easier to undo. So I’ve had to learn all of this because this isn’t what we’re taught in schools, and it’s not--you know, if you pick up the newspaper or magazines or, you know, if you read white bloggers, you don’t read about this. What I’ve had to do is I’ve had to expand where I get my information and who I listen to and what those people learn. So, you know, you get a much different perspective if you--I’ll get outside of the black and white, you know, racial categories for a moment--if you read books for Asian-Americans written by Asian-American authors, for example, about the corporate landscape, what you read sounds much different than, you know, what you might get if you are in a meeting with a bunch of managers and there’s, you know, a 5-minute section on how to include Asian-Americans in your work [inaudible], right? It’s just different. It’s a different perspective. Zach: Yeah. Amy: And so, you know, I started listening and learning that I need to go where I’m a fly on the wall listening to how people talk amongst themselves about the problems that they’re facing, and then I need to figure out how I can--when those perspectives are not represented in a room that I’m in, how can I bring those perspectives to light so that the people who are in the room understand that their perspective isn’t the only one that matters just because they’re the only ones in the room? Zach: As an ally, how do you balance being vocal while not, I don’t know, talking too much? Like, do you have any type of rules that you follow to not, in a sense, colonize the movements and spaces you want to support? Amy: Yeah. So I knew that you were gonna ask me that question, so thank you for that in advance, and I struggled with it originally because I don’t have hard and fast rules. I think the guidelines that I try to follow are--I’ve come to the realization that when people are in the majority in a room, any room, they’re very candid, and perhaps too candid sometimes, right, that they divulge things that they probably shouldn’t. People tend to be very candid when they’re in--like, especially in a super majority in a room. People who are in a minority in a room tend to be very emotionally intelligent, right? Because speaking up can be threatening, and so what I’ve found is if I’m in a space where I’m a minority, if, you know, maybe I’m the only white person in the room--maybe I’m the only non-Hispanic in the room, maybe I’m the only woman in the room. That happens quite a bit. You know, I tend to be more in listening mode and receiving mode, and I try not to ask a lot of questions because I don’t want other people to have to educate me, but I think about those questions, and then I can go research them later. I can contemplate or I can read and, you know, not stop the conversation because, you know, the white lady has a question, right? Let the conversation continue as it is, and I can absorb and kind of take that away. But then when something comes up where I feel like someone else is being dismissed, that’s when I speak up. So I have a hard time speaking up for myself. If I’m feeling defensive about--you know, like I said, I grew up in technology, and I started in ‘99, and I was frequently told, you know, “Oh, you’re really analytical for a girl,” or, you know, “Wow, you code really well for a woman,” you know? And I would just kind of roll my eyes, and if I said anything back it was usually not--it was usually not work-appropriate if I said something back. Let’s just leave it at that. And so I got to the point where I was like, “You know what? I’m not even gonna address these things,” but where I have learned that there’s power and where I think you build respect and you can become an ally--I don’t think you make a decision to be an ally and you are one, and I would never use the word ally to describe myself without first saying, “I aspire to be an ally,” because I think it’s ongoing work. I don’t think you can give yourself that title. I think someone else has to give it to you. Zach: Wow, yeah. Amy: But the ways in--I’m sorry, go ahead. Zach: I was just saying wow. Like, yes, absolutely. I’m listening to you. Amy: Yeah. So the way I aspire to be an ally and the way I aspire to do the work of an ally is to recognize what perspectives are missing, and if those perspectives were in the room and had a voice, what would they say? Or if those perspectives are in the room and don’t feel like they have a voice, can I make space for that? Can I stop the conversation so that someone else who is maybe not in the super majority in the room can speak up? Or, even more importantly, can I say “Hold on, I think if we look at this from a different perspective,” and then I can share what I’ve learned by being in those spaces, right? In those spaces that are predominantly of color or, you know, in different ways so that I can help bridge that gap and sort of make that translation so that it doesn’t always fall on the one black person in the room or the one Hispanic person in the room or, you know, the one Asian-American in the room to speak up, right? To me that’s allyship, not making people advocate for themselves all the time. You have to advocate in a way that includes them. Zach: Yeah. You talked a little bit about gender diversity and you being the only woman in the room, and I can empathize. I can’t sympathize, right? But I can empathize, and let me confess something, like, with that in mind. For me, it’s deeply frustrating when I see diversity and inclusion programs only focus on gender diversity, right? So, like, if you look at the tech space, and if you ask, like, the common, average person--we have this app called Fishbowl, which is, like, an anonymous posting app for consultants, and there are times when I’ve seen people post questions like, “What do you think about the diversity and inclusion at your work?” And most people--typically people tend to be a little bit more honest on these anonymous online threads, for good or bad--they’ll say, “Well, it’s good for white women,” right? And so for me, I agree with that, right? Outside looking in as a black man, like, just my perspective, it seems as if these programs are very much so focused on gender diversity but don’t really look at the cross-section of the ethnic diversity or the sexual orientation diversity, right? So in your book you talk about representation in the C-Suite, in chapter 33. Can you talk more about that particular chapter and the things that you wrote around that topic? Amy: Sure, and I don’t have the book in front of me so I’m gonna not speak specifically to the numbers… Zach: Sure. [laughs] Amy: [laughs] Because I don’t have the numbers memorized. That’s why there’s a book. You know, the representation of women I think--of white women, and I want to be clear that we’re talking--and I think you and I spoke about this before we did the interview, right? Zach: Right. Amy: We talked about we get these numbers about, you know, pay disparity, and we say it’s 83 cents on the dollar for women, and that’s not true. It’s 83 cents on the dollar for white women. The numbers for, you know, women of color get worse and worse, right, as you start going down the list. So, you know, black women make less than white women, Latina women make less than that, indigenous women--you know, I don’t even know if they collect the data on that, right? It’s ridiculous the disparity between white women and women of color, and when we talk about women, right, we tend to talk about women as if that’s all women, and it’s not. It’s white women, so let’s be very clear about that. White women make up--and I want to say it’s less than 6% of the C-Suite, right? Of CEO positions in the United States, and I think there were, like, 27 this year out of the Fortune 500. So we’re talking, like, itty-bitty numbers, right? But white women have better representation in the C-Suite at their 4 or 5% or whatever it is, have better representation in the CEO spots of the Fortune 500 than do all people of color, and so I agree with you. I think that it’s a missed opportunity when we--you know, I think ERGs are important, and I talk about that in the book too, employee resource groups and how it can help you connect in spaces that are affinity groups for you, and it can help you connect in spaces that are not affinity groups for you so you can understand different perspectives, but I think one of the things that that can do if we’re not careful is it can kind of divide people up where the employee resource group for women ends up being all white women because women of color identify as, you know, Latina or, you know, African-American first and women second, and the pride ERG is the same way by the way. I think, you know, a lot of times the LGBTQ community is the white LGBTQ community and ignores the perspectives of people of color and, you know, assumes, right, “Well, if they’re here they’ll find us because they’re gay,” and that’s the most important thing to the LGBTQ community that’s white is that they’re gay, but, you know, for--you know, for Asian-Americans or Hispanic-Americans or black Americans that may also be LGBTQ, that’s not the first thing people recognize about them, and so their primary identity is in the racial--you know, in the racial or ethnic category. So all of that to say I don’t think we should cut people up. I think what we should do instead is, you know, recognize that feminism has been white feminism for a long time. You know, white women have benefited a lot from not just their own advocacy but also from the civil rights movement and the African-American civil rights movement of the ‘60s, and instead of claiming ours and then hoping that other people will follow or, you know, “Once we get there we’ll reach out our hand,” I think is the absolute wrong approach. I think what we need to do instead is when white women hear that, oh, we make 83 cents on the dollar, I think it’s incumbent upon us, it’s imperative for us to say, “That’s not the number for women. That’s the number for white women,” and we need to be the ones, white women need to be the ones to stand up to say, “Look, this is not an inclusive conversation just because you’re talking about me. That doesn’t mean you’re being inclusive of everyone.” And, you know, we all face the same systemic issues, right? White women face a lot of the same issues that people of color face that, you know, people who are immigrants face, but the way we’ve carved up the problem it’s like we’re each trying to get our own seat, and what my book seeks to do is to get everybody, like, wherever they are, to start reaching out. So it’s almost--instead of one person trying to break through, it’s more like a game of Red Rover, right, where we’re all holding hands, we’re all moving forward together, and then when we get there we all get there together. And then our C-Suite isn’t, you know, 10 white men and two white women and maybe a person of color, it’s, you know, this whole Red Rover game of black, white, Hispanic, gay, straight, you know, Asian, men, women, non-binary, cisgender, transgender, you know, abled, people with disabilities. You know, it’s all these things, and we all get there together and we all lift each other up. Zach: Hm. So talk to me a little bit about Lead At Any Level. So I know that you intro’d with that, about the company that you’ve started, and you’ve shared that you’re from Indianapolis and that you engage in predominantly white spaces. So I’m not trying to be pessimistic, right, but I’m looking at… Amy: [laughs] Zach: [laughs] I’m looking at American history, and I’m also looking at the words that you wrote in your book, and I’m curious, like, how do you expect to break through and work past, as you’ve described it, the entitlement of white folks? I ask because I’d say any time we as Americans talk about race--so, like, if you want to look at the situation around kneeling, if you want to talk about even how we talk about diversity, and we say, “Well, it’s about thought diversity,” and if you want to talk about--any time that we’ve in the past I would say 54--really the past 400 years, but just looking at, like, our most recent era of just, like, the past 50, 60 years, we talk about race within the context of making sure that the majority is comfortable with the ways that we engage topics around race. So I’m curious as someone who’s starting a company, or rather who has started a company really tackling this subject, how do you plan on breaking through and navigating that? Amy: Sure. So people of color can’t fix racism, right? People of color can--there are all of these--you know, there’s, like, respectability politics, and I know that there’s a lot of code switching, and there are all of these things that happen within communities and within just the mindset and the sort of the self-censoring people of color, right? And no matter what happens, right, whether it’s a protest--you know, someone kneeling for the anthem because of, you know, the pain in this country that’s happening, right, or, you know--it’s one of those things where it’s kind of like you’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t, right? If you march, it’s the wrong march. If you speak, it’s the wrong words. If you protest, it’s the wrong protest. If you’re quiet, it’s the wrong thing. You know? We’ve tried every combination of people of color doing things to try to end racism, and where racism needs to end is in white America. Like, white folks are the ones who are gonna have to step up and fix this because we’re the ones that are perpetuating the problem. So I want to be clear. My company is not--the stated purpose of my company is not “end racism in the United States,” and I know there are people for whom that is their mission, right? That is their work. What I want to do is I want to help individuals at all levels of organizations see that if they’re not accepting and welcoming and doing hard work around their own biases and their own privileges and understanding that maybe--you know, maybe yeah, you’re really qualified for this job that you’ve gotten, but you probably got there not just based on your qualifications but also based on, you know, your relationships and based on the network that you have and your ability to say and do the right things and to look a certain way, right? So if I can help people understand, and particularly white folks, right, that hey, if you really want to be a leader, being a leader means standing up for those who don’t have a voice. Being a leader means being courageous. Being a leader means moving beyond where you’re comfortable into where you really need to go. That’s what leadership is, and, you know, through the work that I’m doing, whether it’s, you know, consulting or coaching or classroom training, yeah, I do--some people might say that I soft-pedal it in a way that makes it more palatable, but I think that in a lot of cases unless you can get your foot in the door you can’t even have a conversation. And so, you know, I talk about privilege in terms of, like--in kind of silly terms to start, but it opens people’s minds to the conversation you can have about privilege, you know, if you can just start laying those--you know, putting those seeds in the ground, and then you can build the conversation from there. I think the great tragedy, and I think where privilege is, you know, just at the most basic level, is that, you know, I grew up white. I grew up talking a little bit about race, but it wasn’t an everyday conversation in my household growing up, right, because it wasn’t that my family needed to worry about, and I think that’s the experience of a lot of white folks is that, you know, we--you know, they tell us, “You just treat everybody the same and you’ll be all right,” and that’s not enough, and I think it wasn’t until just the last couple of years where I realized that treating everybody the same and treating everyone respectfully isn’t enough. Like, we have to take steps to undo some of the damage, and we--you know, I don’t think any one of us can do it all, but, you know, if we can all do it in our own way in a way that’s authentic, in a way that gives us life, and not in a way that--and that’s different for everybody, right? There are ways for me to do this that are energizing and there are ways for me to do this that leave me in a crumpled heap on the floor, and so I’ve had to find my own way to have this conversation that I feel is energizing and that I feel is productive and that I feel like is authentic for me, and that won’t be the same for everyone. So I’m not sure I’ve answered the question, but I think because I’m white I can talk about racism without being labeled as angry, you know? But on the flip of that, because I’m a woman, if I talk about sexism or I talk about, you know, gender disparities, or if I call out someone’s micro-aggressions, you know, where they’ve referred to me as a girl, or--you know, people--one of my favorites is when I’m traveling people are like, “Well, who watches your kids?” I’m like, “You have never asked a man that question. Ever.” [laughs] “You have never asked a man who watches his kids when he’s traveling for work.” Like, nobody does that, right? Zach: Right. Amy: But if I call that out as a woman, and not just a white woman but as a woman, I’m too sensitive, right? So I need--in the same way that I need to stand up and say, you know, “Whoa, hold on.” You know, “Don’t insult a person of color by telling them they’re articulate.” You know? Like, why wouldn’t they be art--like, that’s not a compliment, right? That’s a slap in the face. I need to stand up for that because I’m not angry, I’m just pointing out, you know, somebody’s ignorance, right? Whereas if you did that--you could have the exact same conversation, use the same words, the same tone of voice, but then you’re gonna be labeled as angry, right? “Why are you so angry?” And I think in the same way, you know, women need men, not just white men but men of color, and women of color need this as well, for men to say, “Hold up.” You know? “She’s not being sensitive. You’re being a jerk.” Zach: [laughs] Amy: [laughs] And kind of tease that out, and that’s kind of the point of the book about--you know, the whole part about allyship is if you want somebody to stand up for you, you have to be willing to stand up for somebody else first, and that’s what I’m trying to do. Zach: That’s powerful. No, this is amazing, and I’ve really appreciated our conversation. So before we wrap up I want to know, do you have any shout outs? Anybody that you want to recognize and thank? Amy: Oh. Well, first of all I want to shout out to Jennifer Brown. Jennifer Brown is a consultant, a TEDx speaker--or maybe a TED speaker--she’s amazing, and she wrote the foreword to my book. She is one of the most internationally-recognized diversity and inclusion experts in the country, and I want to thank her. She was the first person to encourage me in this work. I just want to thank her for that. She’s been amazing. And I want to shout out to you guys. You guys are doing something--the Living Corporate podcast is doing something that I think is wonderful, where you’re giving a voice and you’re giving kind of the inside scoop to folks who maybe feel like they’re on the outside, and you’re creating a sense of community that is beyond corporate borders, beyond--you know, you’re knocking down walls and reaching out and holding hands, and I think that’s amazing, and I’ve been so impressed with the quality and the insights that you guys provide on this podcast. I think it’s amazing, so I want to shout out to all of you. Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you so much, and let’s make sure that we link your book, Network Beyond Bias: Making Diversity A Competitive Advantage, in our show notes, and we’ll put it on our Favorite Things so that-- Amy: Oh, thank you. Zach: No problem, ‘cause I really enjoyed it, and I think everyone who’s listening to this should read it. I don’t care where you’re at in the diversity and inclusion discussion or--if you’re listening to this, you should read it. It is a great read. Amy C. Waninger. Thank you so much for your time today. We definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back. Amy: Well, thank you, Zach. I’d love to come back. Zach: Awesome. Peace. Ade: And we’re back. Wow, that was an amazing interview. So real talk, right next to our Preston Mitchum B-Side, that was top 5. Top 5, top 5, top 5. I know Drake’s cancelled, but whatever. [laughs] Zach: That was a really real talk, yeah. I mean, honestly, it was refreshing to have someone who doesn’t look like you empathize with your experiences and be so honest about the reality of the world that we live in, right? Ade: Seriously. I truly appreciated her comments around, you know, gender diversity and LGBTQ diversity. I think that intersectionality is just such a big thing, and it’s very easy to get lost in the sauce, but also we just have to keep in mind the multi-faceted nature of being and also the fact that under-represented and marginalized identities in general experience very, very different things in the spaces we occupy. Zach: Absolutely. And I think ultimately, when I think through my interview with Amy, the biggest step revolves around courage and just speaking up. It’s not like she had some secret formula. She was just speaking truth to power. I mean, we had a section even on there where she said, “Look, there’s a point as a white woman where I have certain privileges where I can speak to race and I can speak to ethnic and diversity, and at the same time, Zach, even though you’re a person of color, as a man you have the opportunity to speak to items around sexism,” right? And patriarchy and things of that nature. So there’s opportunity for us to speak up. Ade: Right, and I think the abiding truth of Living Corporate as a whole is we’re challenging our listeners and ourselves--we’re holding ourselves responsible as well--to live authentically but also with courage, you know? And what the conversation with Amy reminded me of was the fact that--and she sort of alluded to this--we have more power than we believe we do. In a lot of ways we empower each other, we empower ourselves, when we speak up for others, when we utilize our privilege in ways we never have before. When you group with people who look like you and ERGs, affinity groups, happy hours, whatever, all of these things exist because they are necessary and there is a space for them, but even beyond those resources and beyond those spaces, figuring out ways to, you know, plant your roots and insist that you will not be moved, in a lot of ways figuring out how to collaborate with others, support each other, challenge other people, and bringing your whole self--in a professional fashion--to work. Supporting others honestly and truly is really your call to action, I suppose. Zach: Absolutely. Okay, so let’s go ahead and get into our Favorite Things. Ade: Oh, that’s like my favorite. My favorite, my favorite, my favorite. My favorite section. All right, so I hate to sound like the book nerd but I can’t help myself. I’m on, like, my 80th read-through of a book called Sister Outsider by this amazing writer by the name of Audrey Lord. If I ever, ever, ever am blessed to parent a kid, I’d probably name one or several of them Audrey, and yes, I am absolutely willing to have an Audrey 1 and an Audrey 2 in my household just for the sake of having a child named after Audrey Lord. Anyway, that said, if you’ve never read Sister Outsider, Audrey Lord basically has this collection of essays in this book, and if you’re at all interested in black feminist literature she’s a really great place to start. My other favorite thing at this point? I’m really living for thunderstorms. I think I’ve mentioned a couple of times--again, like, I’m a very predictable person so, like, books and water, those are, like, my things. So I’m really into thunderstorms right now. I sleep to the sound of thunderstorms, and this is a complete aside, but there’s this app on my phone and it’s the only thing that gets me to sleep. It’s called Tide, and there is a thunderstorm sound setting on there, and it puts me right to sleep, and it’s the greatest thing ever. So I’m here for actual thunderstorms. I’m here for thunderstorm sounds. I’m here for thunderstorm playlists. So if anybody out there actually has a link for a thunderstorm playlist, hook me up. I’m here for it. That’s all I got. What about you, Zach? Zach: Wow. So first thing is--[laughs]--definitely I love Audrey Lord as well. You know, great work. Beautiful work. The point around thunderstorms is interesting. Technology is crazy. So you’re telling me there’s an app now that actually simulates thunderstorms? Ade: An app. It simulates thunderstorms. It simulates ocean sounds. You can do, like, a focus period. It does naps. It’s frickin’ amazing. Sponsor us, Tide. Zach: Sponsor us, Tide, and we’ll [inaudible]-- Ade: I’m here for you guys. Zach: Ah, yeah. That’s something I’m--I’m trying to get into this. That’s great. [laughs] Ade: [laughs] No, but seriously. Zach: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Okay, so Tide is the name of the app? Okay, I’m gonna check that out. Ade: It does forest sounds. There are forest sounds, my guy. Zach: Forest sounds? Okay. Well, cool. Look, my favorite thing right now has to be Amy C. Waninger’s book Network Beyond Bias, right? So I shouted it out during the actual interview with Amy, and I told her that I was gonna shout it out during Favorite Things because I really enjoyed it. I read it. Very thoughtful, very frank, very approachable. Definitely a recommended read for anyone interested in learning about diversity and inclusion, leadership development, unconscious bias, effective representation, and a slew of other things. It’s very, very thorough. It covers so many different topics in very--just, again, approachable and transparent ways. Ade: Oh. Well, okay. Great. As a reminder, to see all of our Favorite Things, very, very simple. You just want to go to our website, www.living-corporate.com, and click “FAVES” right across the top. Zach: Yes, and as another reminder, we have a Patreon. In fact, you-- Ade: [imitating air horns] Zach: Okay… Okay, so Sound Man, go ahead and add those horns. [Sound Man complies] Zach: [laughs] As another reminder, we have a Patreon. In fact, Sound Man--so I know you just hit Ade with the horns, but go ahead and hit me with some of that royalty-free jazz music. I mean, I don’t know, you can probably find some tracks from, like, 1970 or something. Just give me something smooth. [Sound Man complies again] Zach: Okay. You playing it? Okay, here we go. So listen, I know you want exclusive content, right? But you can’t get it for free. But guess what? We got it. You want giveaways? We got that. You want extended interviews? We got that. You want exclusive writing written by guests? We got that, and guess what? It only costs a dollar to get in, baby. Just a dollar. Ade: [laughs] Zach: One dollar. So do me a favor, do you a favor, do us a favor, and become a patron. Become a patron today. I got the links in the show notes right there. Open up your phone and press details. You’re gonna see the links all right there. All right, that’s it. I’m done. Sound Man, cut it off. [Sound Man dutifully complies] Ade: I wasn’t ready… So we just got to go home. Okay, guys. That was our show. Thank you for joining us at the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate. We’re also on Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don’t forget to check us out on Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. We’re all over Al Gore’s internet. And that does it for us on this show. My name is Ade. Zach: And this has been Zach. Ade: A pleasure as always. Ade and Zach: Peace. Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

Episode 189: Theatre is my life line At 15, Amy Oestreicher believed that she was going to be a performer and go to Broadway. Life threw a curveball at Amy to make Broadway the farthest possible goal imaginable. How did she use theatre as a life line?  How was she able to harness her creativity?  You don't need to think you're an artist to create. This is a story everyone should listen to. Show Notes Drama Teacher Academy Follow Your Detour Ted Talk Amy Oestreicher, Great Comebacks Recipient Theatre and Empathy Amy's website Episode Transcript Welcome to the Drama Teacher Podcast brought to you by Theatrefolk – the Drama Teacher Resource Company. I'm Lindsay Price. Hello! I hope you're well. Thanks for listening! This is Episode 189 and you can find any links to this episode in the show notes which are at Theatrefolk.com/episode189. Today, we're talking about lifelines. How many of you have ever thought of theatre as a lifeline? I have, for sure. I meet students every day who tell me that theatre saved their life in one way or another. I remember a particular student telling me, after being through two hurricanes, that being in a play was the only thing getting her through. Our guest today has a deep connection with theatre as a lifeline for very good reason. So, I don't think I've ever done this before so I don't know if I'm going to do it right or wrong. I'm just going to do it. This is really a warning because I don't think you should be warned away from intense topics but this podcast contains intense topics and mention of sexual assaults. But, at the end of it, we have theatre as a lifeline. So, let's get to it, shall we? LINDSAY: Hello everybody! Today, I am talking to Amy Oestreicher. Hello, Amy! AMY: Hello! LINDSAY: Hello! Tell everybody where in the world you are located. AMY: I'm in Connecticut. LINDSAY: All right, cool. Amy has a story. It's something that really… I think it's really a good story to share. But then, also, the aftermath, I think the aftermath of your story is what's really interesting. I think it's what's going to be really interesting to our listeners. We're going to get into the bulk of this and we're going to talk about empathy a little bit and you will see, you will see, dear listener, why empathy is going to be the hallmark of our conversation today. All right, Amy. What happened to you when you were 17? AMY: All right. Well, you know, I was born a Theatrefolk. LINDSAY: You're one of us, eh? AMY: Oh, my god, don't even start but I was definitely born a musical theatre ham and extremely, like, Type A driven. That was what I knew my life was going to be – I was going to go to college and study musical theatre at the University of Michigan and be on Broadway and that was it. When I was 15, I'd been studying with a really big voice coach in New York who I really, really looked up to. When I was 17, he molested me and that was obviously a complete shock to me and I completely just left my body and don't remember anything that happened. I really kept that inside for almost a year – until I finally told my mother in the April of my senior year. We were going to go for therapy and all that. And then, I just had a really bad stomach ache that wasn't going away. My dad took me… LINDSAY: Cool. Now, before we get to the stomach ache part which is the part that I knew, I think that you've just hit on something which I think is really important to mention about how many of those people who are listening have students who have mentors or teachers – you know, not necessarily in the classroom but just like you had someone that they looked up to who were not good people. AMY: Yeah. Whenever I talk on podcasts, I'm always like, “You have to say how old he is!” You know, he was 60 and I was 15. And so, you know, I really looked up to him. He actually wrote a letter to my parents,

City Girls Soap becomes a Farm: Let the Goat Scaping begin! Amy McIntire joins Romy for an update on the goat farm. Amy shares how the business has evolved from just making soaps and lotions to conservation ‘scaping’. Join in to learn how she is putting ‘Kids on the Bus’ in this great catch up. Great music from another Detroit artist at the end.   http://bonfiresofsocialenterprise.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/amy-and-john.jpg ()   http://bonfiresofsocialenterprise.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/goat1.png () For the full transcript, click here Read Full Transcript Romy: Thanks for tuning into this episode on City Girls Farm. This is Romy, and I am your host for this episode. We have lots of good stuff for you here. Our main guest is Amy McIntyre of City Girls Farm; she is one of the owners with her husband, John. We did a fun interview back in Season 1, and this is a great update! They went from three goats to eleven! One of the most interesting developments you will hear about is the new service line, goat scaping! But first, let's check out our Fun Fuel with Jentzen. Jentzen: Goats were introduced to North America in the 16th century by Spanish colonists. For hundreds of years the Spanish goat was a source of milk and meat, but goats did not become an agricultural commodity the way sheep, cattle, pigs and chickens did. Many of the original Spanish goats became feral and populating parts of what would become the United States. For most of United States history, dairy goats were utilized by small family farms as a personal source of milk cheese. In the early 1930s goat milk started to find a market as an alternative dairy product for those who had allergies to cows' milk. In the 1970s the goat became a perfect farm animal for homesteaders who embraced sustainable agricultural practices: Goats do not take take up as space or require as much feed as cattle. By the 1980s, goat milk and goat cheeses were sought by connoisseurs as gourmet items. The dairy goat industry has continued steady growth since the 1980s. As of 2013, more than 30,000 farms in the country raise milk goats. In addition to a variety of different cheeses, goat milk is used to make yogurt and even ice cream, and it often serves as feed for other animals. Romy: Thank you, Jentzen. Let's keep on rollin' with goats and jump right over to my conversation with Amy at the Farm. Romy: Let's catch up. We interviewed you ... Gosh, now that was season one that we interviewed you. Amy: It was 2015, wasn't it? Romy: Yeah, and so you had the three goats at the time when I came to your shop. I wanted to catch up because you've gone through all of this expansion of your services and ... so let's start. We know you changed your name from City Girls Soap to City Girls ... is it Farm, Amy? Amy: Yes, and it was more of a re-branding. It was because of City Girl Soap, obviously, it's like, "Oh, bath and body products for the home," and then we realized as we were thinking about expanding and what else we could do using all these goats, which we now have 11 ... Romy: Wow. Amy: We were talking about after we had done our internship with the kids and everything and we thought, "You know, if we re-brand to City Girls Farm and then City Girls Soap becomes a subsidiary of it, then City Girls Farm is like a one-stop shop where you can get to all things City Girl." That's kind of what we started thinking about early in 2016 and then really got it going in like third quarter 2016. Romy: Nice. Do you feel that that better captures the essence of what you're doing now? Amy: Oh, absolutely. 100%. It's ... because we always wanted to be so much more than just soap and lotion and that was the wonderful thing that allowed us to get our foot in the door and to start showing the way you can use agriculture as a viable industry outside of traditionally what we think of it as being. To be a farm...

In today's Q&A, we are helping Kathy figure out how she can create awesome videos for her online business with affordable video equipment (or what she already has). Do you have a question you want answered on our podcast? We would love to help you! Click here to ask your question! Resources Mentioned in this Episode Today's expert is Amy from SavvySexySocial.com Amy on Youtube Amy's Podcast iRig Mic Rhode Lapel Mic Let's dive into this week's question! JOCELYN: Hey y'all! You're listening to a Q&A with S&J. Welcome to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast, where life always comes before work. We're your hosts, Shane and Jocelyn Sams. Join us, each week, as we teach you how to flip your lifestyle upside-down, by selling stuff online. Are you ready for something different? All right, let's get started. SHANE: What's going on guys? Welcome back to the Expert edition of the Q&A with S&J and today we are bringing back one of our favorite guests to talk about video and how it can improve your brand. It is Amy Schmittauer; Amy, welcome back to the Q&A with S&J. AMY: Shane and Jocelyn are my favorite people in the world, thanks for having me. SHANE: Love it. JOCELYN: Yeah, we are like super pumped when we talked to Amy a little bit ago that she is in the Eastern Time zone. There are very few people in the Eastern Time Zone. SHANE: This is the only podcast we get to record in the Eastern Time zone is when we get to talk to Amy. AMY: It's so funny because most people don't even believe me when I say I'm in the Eastern Time zone – SHANE: I know. AMY: – they're like, “You're in Ohio, so what does that mean?” SHANE: “Do you even have internet?” AMY: “Is that central time?” I'm like, “Yeah, exactly. I'm on Eastern Time, it's all good.” SHANE: I always say, we have to like plus or minus four from everything we do because of all the people in California. AMY: Oh no. JOCELYN: East Coast represent – SHANE: East Coast is in the house today. JOCELYN: Let's jump into today's question. It's from Cathy, a Flip Your Life member, and she says, “I cannot afford expensive equipment to make videos; what should I do?” SHANE: If we get any video questions, it's this one because you know, when people start out affordability on everything, you got to get hosting and domains and blah-blah-blah and you got to spend some money to get started. But then we're like “Okay, how are you going to use video?” And they're like, “I can't afford a camera.” That's impossible. So what do you say to people when they come to you and they are like “I don't have anything to record with; what do I do?” AMY: Well, it's a bunch of crap, is what it is because you do have something to record with – Cathy, no disrespect. So, most of us have a smartphone and there's no reason to think that if you are going to get serious about video content that you can't use what you already have. I mean, it's actually sort of mind-blowing when you think about the abilities of the cameras that are built into smartphones. This is why the flip camera got discontinued and there are so many other hand-held video cameras nobody is buying because you just have it in something you carry around anyway. So, other than maybe a memory issue, there's no reason for you to say like “I can't use my phone” and there's so many accessories out there to enhance even that product alone if you are worried about internal audio being an issue ‘cause you like to do stuff outside a lot. There's a way of getting a microphone that can just plug into your phone and then you automatically have an upgrade there. So, often times when people are trying to sort of drag their feet on video, they are always talking about equipment and it's just very hard to wrap your mind on what are all the things we need: lighting, sound, quality everything; but if you just start with what you have at that point in time, you are going to prove to yourself that you need better...

Episode 89: Make a Mission Statement for Your Drama Classroom Discover drama teacher Amy Patel's process for creating a mission statement with her students. Show Notes The Golden Circle Ted Talk James Clemens Theatre Mission Statement Drama Teacher Academy Drama Teacher Executive Summary Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP, The Theatrefolk Podcast. I'm Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello, I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. As we look toward ringing in a brand new year in yet a couple of days, I thought it was appropriate to replay Episode 89:  make a mission statement for your classroom with teacher Amy Pugh Patel. Start the brand new year off to a great start with this fantastic project.  You can catch the links for this episode at theatrefolk.com/episode89. And if you like what Amy has to say here she has a more in-depth version of the project inside our Drama Teacher Academy. I'll tell you more at the end of the podcast. Let's get to it. Lindsay: Hello everybody! Welcome to the podcast. I am so happy today to be talking to teacher Amy Patel. Hello Amy! Amy: Hi! How are you? Lindsay: I am awesome. You are on your Spring Break this week, right? Amy: Yes! Lindsay: Are you enjoying that? Amy: Yeah, it's really nice. You know, sleep in, stay in my pajamas for a little while, and not have a real strict schedule for a change. And the weather's pretty – for today, anyway. Lindsay: Okay. So, tell everybody, I'd like to start with asking where people are in the world. So, where are you? Amy: I'm in Madison, Alabama, which is just outside of Huntsville, North Alabama. Lindsay: Yes. Amy: And I teach at James Clemens High School which is a brand new school. Lindsay: Ah, cool. Okay. We'll get into that. So, how long have you been a drama teacher? Amy: This is my 16th year. I taught for 14 years at Butler High School in Huntsville and then I took a year sabbatical and didn't teach at all. I visited other teachers around the country, some of my friends who taught in Connecticut and Colorado and Florida. And then, I also got back on stage for a change and kind of regrouped and then started at James Clemens last year so that is two years now at that school. Lindsay: Do you think sabbaticals are important for teachers? Amy: Oh, my gosh. It saved me. It really did. I needed that break and I needed that time to, you know, do research for myself – kind of explore and to miss it. My husband asked me, “When do you think you'll go back to the classroom?” and I said, “When I miss it,” and it didn't take long. It just really revived my passion for teaching. You know, absence makes the heart grow fonder and having a bit of an absence and getting to explore the things that I'd been turning around in my head really helped me and I feel like I'm a better teacher for it. Lindsay: So, it seems like it was very purposeful that you would go, and I know they were your friends, but were you asking other teachers about things that they do? It was sort of like a research thing, too? Amy: Yeah, because, you know, I had taught for 14 years at the same school. And so, I felt like kind of my blinders went up and I could only see things the way I had been doing them or, you know, I had only seen a school being run the way my school was run, and I would hear about other friends at other schools and they would talk to me, but I didn't get to see it for myself. So, you know, I went in with an agenda. I wanted to see what's their space like; how do they structure their classes; what are the things that they feel, like, go really well and what are the challenges that they have; and, you know, I saw a lot of myself out there, and I kind of felt like, “Oh, I'm not the only one who faces that,” and, “Oh, I'm not the only one who struggles with that,” and it was just really nice. Lindsay: Sometimes, the nicest thing is knowing you're not alone, isn't it?

This week on Mom Talk Radio, we are joined by Harvey Hubbell V, filmmaker, who shares information about his new film Dislecksia: The Movie. Spotlight on Moms features Patty Holliday of MargaritaSmilesAndMouse.blogspot.com. Dr. Leonard Friedland, Director of Scientific Affairs and Public Health, Vaccines North America at GSK, shares ways to fight the flu. Amy Oh, co-founder and president of Boingy LLC and creator of Grapple, shares how she took an idea to retail shelves. Dawn Dais, author of The Sh!t No One Tells You: A Guide to Surviving Your Baby’s First Year, shares some tough and humorous challenges from her new book.