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Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 9 – Instructional & Assessment Practices Guest: Dr. Kim Morrow-Leong Mike Wallus: What are the habits of mind that educators can adopt to be more responsive to our students' thinking? And how can we turn these habits of mind into practical steps that we can take on a regular basis? Dr. Kim Morrow-Leong has some thoughts on this topic. Today, Kim joins the podcast, and we'll talk with her about three mental shifts that can profoundly impact educators instructional and assessment practices.  Mike: Kim Morrow-Leong, welcome to the podcast. We're excited to have you. Kim Morrow-Leong: Thank you, Mike. It's nice to be here. Mike: I'm really excited to talk about the shifts educators can make to foster responsive interpretations of student thinking. This is an idea that for me has been near and dear for a long time, and it's fun to be able to have this conversation with you because I think there are some things we're going to get into that are shifts in how people think. But they're also practical. You introduced the shift that you proposed with a series of questions that you suggested that teachers might ask themselves or ask their colleagues, and the first question that you posed was, “What is right?” And I'm wondering what do you mean when you suggest that teachers might ask themselves or their colleagues this question when they're interpreting student thinking? Kim: So, I'm going to rephrase your question a little bit and change the emphasis to say, “What is right?” And the reason I want to change the emphasis of that is because we often talk about what is wrong, and so rather than talking about what is wrong, let's talk about what's right. When we look at student work, it's a picture. It's a snapshot of where they are at that particular moment. And the greater honesty that we can bring to that situation to understand what their thinking is, the better off we're going to be. So, there's a lot of talk lately about asset-based instruction, asset-based assessment, and I think it's a great initiative and it really gets us thinking about how we can think about what students are good at and what they bring to the table or what they bring to the classroom culture. But we don't often talk a lot about how we do that, how we break the mold. Because many of our metaphors and our language about learning are linear, and they indicate that students are moving from somewhere to achieve a goal somewhere down the path, somewhere down the line. Kim: How do you switch that around? Well, rather than looking at what they're missing and what part of the path they haven't achieved yet, we can look at where they are at the moment because that reflects everything they've learned up to that moment. So, one of the ways we can do this is to unpack our standards a little more carefully, and I think a lot of people are very good at looking at what the skills are and what our students need to be able to do by the end of the year. But a lot of what's behind a standard are concepts. What are some big ideas that must be in place for students to be successful with the skills? So, I'm going to give a very specific example. This one happens to be about a fourth-grade question that we've asked before in a district I used to work at. The task is to sketch as many rectangles as you can that are 48 square units. Kim: There's some skills behind this, but understanding what the concepts are is going to give us a little more insight into student thinking. So, one of the skills is to understand that there are many ways to make 48: to take two factors and multiply them together and only two factors, and to make a product of 48 or to get the area. But a concept behind that is that 48 is the product of two numbers. It's what happens when you multiply one dimension by the other dimension. It's not the measure of one of the dimensions. That's a huge conceptual idea for students to sort out what area is and what perimeter is, and we want to look for evidence of what they understand about the differences between what the answer to an area problem is and what the answer to, for example, a perimeter problem is. Another concept is that area indicates that a space is covered by squares. Kim: The other big concept here is that this particular question is going to have more than one answer. You're going to have 48 as a product, but you could have six times eight and four times 12 and many others. So that's a lot of things going into this one, admittedly very rich, task for students to take in. One of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately is this idea of a listening stance. So, a listening stance describes what you're listening for. It describes how you're listening. Are you listening for the right answer? Are you listening to understand students' thinking? Are you listening to respond or are you listening to hear more—and asking for more information from your student or really from any listener? So, one of the ways we could think about that, and perhaps this sounds familiar to you, is you could have what we call an evaluative listening stance. Kim: An evaluative listening stance is listening for the right answer. As you listen to what students say, you're listening for the student who gives you the answer that you're looking for. So, here's an example of something you might see. Perhaps a student covers their space and has dimensions for the rectangle of seven times six, and they tell you that this is a space that has an area of 48 square units. There's something right about that. They are really close. Because you can look at their paper and you can see squares on their paper and they're arranged in an array and you can see the dimensions on this side and the dimensions on that side, and you can see that there's almost 48 square units. I know we all can see what's wrong about that answer, but that's not what we're thinking about right now. We're thinking about what's right. And what's right is they covered that space with an area that is something by six. This is a great place to start with this student to figure out where they got that answer. If you're listening evaluatively, that's a wrong answer and there's nowhere else to go. So, when we look at what is right in student work, we're looking for the starting point. We're looking for what they know so that we can begin there and make a plan to move forward with them. You can't change where students are unless you meet them where they are and help them move forward. Mike: So, the second question that you posed was, “Can you cite evidence for what you're saying?” So again, talk us through what you're asking, when you ask teachers to pose this question to themselves or to their colleagues. Kim: Think about ways that you might be listening to a student's answer and very quickly say, “Oh, they got it,” and you move on. And you grab the next student's paper or the next student comes up to your desk and you take their work and you say, “Tell me what you're thinking.” And they tell you something. You say, “That's good,” and you move to the next one. Sometimes you can take the time to linger and listen and ask for more and ask for more and ask for more information. Teachers are very good at gathering information, at a glance. We can look at a stack of papers and in 30 seconds get a good snapshot of what's happening in that classroom. But in that efficiency we lose some details. We lose information about specifics, about what students understand, that we can only get by digging in and asking more questions. Kim: Someone once told me that every time a student gives an answer, you should follow it with, “How do you know?” And somebody raised their hand and said, “Well, what if it's the right answer?” And the presenter said, “Oh, you still ask it. As a matter of fact, that's the best one to ask. When you ask, ‘How do you know?' you don't know what you're going to hear, you have no idea what's going to happen.” And sometimes those are the most delightful surprises, is to hear some fantastical creative way to solve a problem that you never would've thought about. Unless you ask, you won't hear these wonderful things. Sometimes you find out that a correct answer has some flawed reasoning behind it. Maybe it's reasoning that only works for that particular problem, but it won't work for something else in the future. You definitely want to know that information so that you can help that student rethink their reasoning so that the next time it always works. Kim: Sometimes you find out the wrong answers are accidents. They're just a wrong computation. Everything was perfect up until the last moment and they said three times two is five, and then they have a wrong answer. If you don't ask more either in writing or verbally, you have incorrect information about that student's progress, their understandings, their conceptual development and even their skills. That kind of thing happens to everyone because we're human. By asking for more information, you're really getting at what is important in terms of student errors and what is not important, what is just easily fixable. I worked with a group of teachers once to create some open-ended tasks that require extended answers, and we sat down one time to create rubrics. And we did this with student work, so we laid them all out and someone held up a paper and said, “This is it!” Kim: “This student gets it.” And so, we all took a copy of this work and we looked at it. And we were trying to figure out what exactly does this answer communicate that makes sense to us? That seems to be an exemplar. And so, what we did was we focused on exactly what the students said. We focused on the evidence in front of us. This one was placing decimal numbers on a number line. We noted that the representation was accurate, that the position of the point on the number line was correct. We noticed that the label on the point matched the numbers in the problem, so that made sense. But then all of a sudden somebody said, “Well, wait a minute. There's an answer here, but I don't know how this answer got here.” Something happened, and there's no evidence on the page that this student added this or subtracted this, but magically the right answer was there. And it really drove home for this group—and for me, it really stuck with me—the idea that you can see a correct answer but not know the thinking behind it. Kim: And so, we learned from that point on to always focus on the evidence in front of us and to make declarative statements about what we saw, what we observed, and to hold off on making inferences. We saved our inferences for the end. After I had this experience with the rubric grading and with this group of teachers and coaches, I read something about over attribution and under attribution. And it really resonated with me. Over attribution is when you make the claim that a student understands something when there really isn't enough evidence to make that statement. It doesn't mean that's true or not true, it means that you don't have enough information in front of you. You don't have enough evidence to make that statement. You over attribute what it is they understand based on what's in front of you. Similarly, you get under attribution. You have a student who brings to you a drawing or a sketch or a representation of some sort that you don't understand because you've never seen anybody solve a problem this way before. Kim: You might come to the assumption that this student doesn't understand the math task at hand. That could be under attribution. It could be that you have never seen this before and you have not yet made sense of it. And so, focusing on evidence really gets us to stop short of making broad, general claims about what students understand, making broad inferences about what we see. It asks us to cite evidence to be grounded in what the student actually put on the paper. For some students, this is challenging because they mechanically have difficulties putting things on paper. But we call a student up to our desk and say, “Can you tell me more about what you've done here? I'm not following your logic.” And that's really the solution is to ask more questions. I know, you can't do this all the time. But you can do it once in a while, and you can check yourself if you are assigning too much credit for understanding to a student without evidence. And you can also check yourself and say, “Hmm, am I not asking enough questions of this student? Is there something here that I don't understand that I need to ask more about?” Mike: This is really an interesting point because what I'm finding myself thinking about is my own practice. What I feel like you're offering is this caution, which says, “You may have a set of cumulative experiences with children that have led you to a set of beliefs about their understanding or how they come to understanding. But if we're not careful—and even sometimes even if we are careful—we can bring that in a way that's actually less helpful, less productive,” right? It's important to look at things and actually say, “What's the evidence?” Rather than, “What's the body of my memory of this child's previous work?” It's not to say that that might not have value, but at this particular point in time, “What's the evidence that I see in front of me?” Kim: That's a good point, and it reminds me of a practice that we used to have when we got together and assessed these open-ended tasks. The first thing we would do is we put them all in the middle of the table and we would not look at our own students' work. That's a good strategy if you work with a team of people, to use these extended assessments or extended tasks to understand student thinking, is to share the load. You put them all out there. And the other thing we would do is we would take the papers, turn them over and put a Post-it note on the back. And we would take our own notes on what we saw, the evidence that we saw. We put them on a Post-it note, turn them over and then stick the Post-it note to the back of the work. There are benefits to looking at work fresh without any preconceived notions that you bring to this work. There are other times when you want all that background knowledge. My suggestion is that you try it differently, that you look at students' work for students you don't know and that you not share what you're seeing with your colleagues immediately, is that you hold your opinions on a Post-it to yourself, and then you can share it afterwards. You can bring the whole conversation to the whole table and look at the data in front of you and discuss it as a team afterwards. But to take your initial look as an individual with an unknown student. Mike: Hmm. I'm going to jump to the third shift that you suggest, which is less of a question and more of a challenge. You talk about the idea of moving from anticipating to targeting a learning trajectory, and I'm wondering if you could talk about what that means and why you think it's important. Kim: Earlier we talked about how important it is to understand and unpack our standards that we're teaching so that we know what to look for. And I think the thing that's often missed, particularly in standards in the older grades, is that there are a lot of developmental steps between, for example, a third-grade standard and a fourth-grade standard. There are skills and concepts that need to grow and develop, but we don't talk about those as much as perhaps we should. Each one of those conceptual ideas we talked about with the area problem we discussed may come at different times. It may not come during the unit where you are teaching area versus perimeter versus multiplication. That student may not come to all of those conceptual understandings or acquire all of the skills they need at the same time, even though we are diligently teaching it at the same time. Kim: So, it helps to look at third grade to understand, what are these pieces that make up this particular skill? What are the pieces that make up the standard that you're trying to unpack and to understand? So, the third shift in our thinking is to let go of the standard as our goal, but to break apart the standard into manageable pieces that are trackable because really our standards mean by the end of the year. They don't mean by December, they mean by the end of the year. So that gives you the opportunity to make choices. What are you going to do with the information you gather? You've asked what is right about student work. You've gathered evidence about what they understand. What are you going to do with that information? That perhaps is the hardest part. There's something out there called a learning trajectory that you've mentioned. Kim: A learning trajectory comes out of people who really dig in and understand student thinking on a fine-grain level, how students will learn … developmentally, what are some ideas they will develop before they develop other ideas? That's the nature of a learning trajectory. And sometimes those are reflected in our standards. The way that kindergartners are asked to rote count before they're asked to really understand one-to-one correspondence. We only expect one-to-one correspondence up to 20 in kindergarten, but we expect counting up to a hundred because we acknowledge that that doesn't come at the same time. So, a learning trajectory to some degree is built into your standards. But as we talked about earlier, there are pieces and parts that aren't outlined in your standards. One of the things we know about students and their interactions with grids and arrays is that a student might be able to recognize an array that is six by eight, but they may not yet be able to draw it. Kim: The spatial structuring that's required to create a certain number of lines going vertically and a certain number of lines going horizontally may not be in place. At the same time, they are reading a arrays and understanding what they mean. So, the skill of structuring the space around you takes time. The task where we ask them to draw these arrays is asking something that some kids may not yet be able to do, to draw these grids out. If we know that we can give them practice making arrays, we can give them tools to make arrays, we can give them blocks to make arrays, and we can scaffold this and help them move forward. What we don't want to assume is that a student who cannot yet make a six by eight array can't do any of it because that's not true. There's parts they can do. So, our job as teachers is to look at what they do, look carefully at the evidence of what they do, and then make a plan. Use all of that skill and experience that's on our teams. Even if you're a new teacher, all those people on your teams know a lot more than they're letting on, and then you can make a plan to move forward and help that student make these smaller steps so they can reach the standard. Mike: When we talked earlier, one of the things that you really shifted for me was some of the language that I found myself using. So, I know I have been in the habit of using the word “misconception” when we're talking about student work. And the part of the conversation that we had that really has never left me is this idea of, what do we actually mean when we say “misconception”? Because I found that the more I reflected on it, I used that language to describe a whole array of things that kids were doing, and not all of them were what I think a misconception actually is. Can you just talk about this language of misconception and how we use it and perhaps what we might use instead to be a little bit more precise? Kim: I have stopped using the word misconception myself. Students understand what they understand. It's our job to figure out what they do understand. And if it's not at that mature level we need it to be for them to understand the concept, what disequilibrium do I need to introduce to them? I'm borrowing from Piaget there. You have to introduce some sort of challenge so that they have the opportunity to restructure what it is they understand. They need to take their current conception, change it with new learning to become a new conception. That's our teaching opportunity right there. That's where I have to start. Mike: Before we close, I have to say one of the big takeaways from this conversation is the extent to which the language that I use, and I mean literally what I say to myself internally or what I say to my colleagues when we're interpreting student work or student thinking, that that language has major implications for my instruction and that the language that surrounds my assessing, my interpreting and my planning habits really matters. Kim: It does. You are what you practice. You are what you put forth into the world. And to see a truly student-centered point of view requires a degree of empathy that we have to learn. Mike: So, before you go, Kim, I'm wondering, can you share two or three resources that have really shaped your thinking on the interpretation of student learning? Kim: Yes, I could. And one of them is the book, “Children's Mathematics.” There's a lot of information in this book, and if you've ever engaged with the work of cognitively guided instruction, you're familiar with the work in this book. There's plenty of content knowledge, there's plenty of pedagogical content knowledge in this book. But the message that I think is the most important is that everything they learn, they learn by listening. They listen to what students were saying. And the second piece is called “Warning Signs!” And this one is one of my favorites. And in this book, they give three warning signs that you as a teacher are taking over students' learning. And one example that comes to mind for me is you take the pencil from the student. It's such a simple thing that we would just take it into quickly get something out, but to them, they expressed that that's a warning sign that you're about to take over their thinking. So, I highly recommend that one. And there's another one that I always recommend. It was published in Mathematics Teaching in the Middle School. It's called “Never Say Anything a Kid Can Say!” That's a classic. I highly recommend it if you've never read it. Mike: Kim Morrow-Leong, thank you for joining us. It's really been a pleasure. Kim: Mike, thank you for having me. This has been delightful. Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2024 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

TRACKLIST 0:00 Disturbing Tha Peace - Move Bitch 1:30 Scarface - G's 4:00 Craig Mack - Flava in Ya Ear Remix (feat. The Notorious B.I.G., LL Cool J, Busta Rhymes, Rampage) 8:00 Fugees - Ready or Not 11:00 Lupe Fiasco - The Coolest 15:00 DJ Khaled - Fed Up (feat. Lil Wayne, Usher, Drake, Young Jeezy, Rick Ross) 21:00 Lil Wayne - Get Off The Corner 25:00 Genius/GZA - Liquid Swords 26:30 DMX - Slippin' 34:00 Ghostface Killah - Mighty Healthy 36:30 G-Unit - I Smell Pussy 38:30 Nas - The Message 42:00 Prodigy of Mobb Deep - You Can Never Feel My Pain 45:00 Young Jeezy - The Takeover 48:00 Shyne - Bonnie & Shyne (feat. Barrington Levy) 51:30 LL Cool J - Candy 55:30 LL Cool J - I Can't Live Without My Radio (Album Version) 1:00:30 P. Diddy, The Notorious B.I.G., The Lox and Lil' Kim - It's All About the Benjamins (Greatest Hits Version) 1:05:00 Big Pun - How We Roll (Explicit) 1:08:00 Nelly - E.I. 1:11:00 Nas - Still Dreaming 1:13:00 50 Cent - Ski Mask Way 1:16:00 Big L - Put It On 1:19:00 Jay-Z - Flava In Ya Ear Freestyle 1:21:00 Nas - Hate Me Now 1:25:30 Lloyd Banks - I'm So Fly 1:28:30 The Game - Start From Scratch 1:32:30 Prodigy of Mobb Deep - What U Rep (featuring Nore) 1:35:30 50 Cent - In Da Club 1:38:00 Hot Boys - We On Fire 1:41:30 Nas - Life's a Bitch 1:44:30 Eve - Let Me Blow Ya Mind 1:47:30 JAY-Z - Money, Cash, Hoes 1:51:00 Young Jeezy - My Money 1:53:30 Talib Kweli - Get By 1:56:30 Mos Def - Hip Hop 1:59:30 Young Gunz - No Better Love 2:02:30 Redman - Tonight's Da Night 2:05:30 JAY-Z - Medley: Intro / A Million And One Questions / Rhyme No More 2:07:30 Nas - Black Republican 2:10:30 Cam'ron - Hey Ma 2:13:30 DMX - How's It Goin' Down 2:17:00 Raekwon - Ice Cream 2:20:30 Mos Def - Ms. Fat Booty 2:31:30 2Pac - Temptations 2:35:30 Dj Quik - Born and Raised in Compton 2:38:00 Wu-Tang Clan - C.R.E.A.M. 2:41:30 The Notorious B.I.G. - Sky's the Limit (feat. 112) [2014 Remaster] 2:45:00 Common - The Questions 2:48:30 Ice Cube - Natural Born Killaz 2:50:00 Dr. Dre - Natural Born Killaz 2:51:30 AZ - Sugar Hill 2:55:00 Clipse - Cot Damn 3:01:00 Killah Priest - B.I.B.L.E. (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth) 3:05:00 DMX - Ruff Ryders' Anthem 3:10:00 Lil' Kim - Not Tonight 3:13:00 Eminem - Guilty Conscience 3:16:00 Nas - Street Dreams 3:17:30 Nas - Street Dreams (Bonus Verse) (Clean Ver.) 3:19:00 Fabolous - Into You (feat. Tamia) 3:21:30 Kanye West - All Falls Down Hip Hop

What you'll learn in this episode:   What makes jewelry so difficult to photograph, and Kim's tips for capturing jewelry in photos What techniques Kim uses to make gemstones look shiny, sparkly and colorful Which tools and tips photographers need to get started with jewelry photography Common jewelry photography mistakes and how to avoid them How to choose the right jewelry photographer   About Kim Nunneley:   Kim Nunneley is a Los Angeles-based IATSE Local 600 photographer specializing in unit photography, gallery, lifestyle and portraiture. She has held various roles, from photographer at a fashion merchandising company to photo assistant, and she has worked at one of the world's most prestigious photo studios in NYC. She has developed a niche as a jewelry photographer working for major jewelry companies.    Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript:   A simple photo can never quite capture the real-life beauty of a diamond, ruby or sapphire. That's why photographer Kim Nunneley relies on a variety of tools, software and experience to make jewelry photographs that shine. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the mistakes she made when she first started photographing jewelry; her tips for burgeoning jewelry photographers; and what questions jewelry brands should ask to choose the right photographer. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    I'm sure you've struggled with making the piece of jewelry that was in front of you look as good in a picture as it does in real life. A good picture attracts customers. The quality of a picture can tell people a lot about your business. After all, you're selling luxury, and the quality of the picture tells a lot of the story. My guest today is Kim Nunneley of Kim Alexis Photography. She is a photographer who specializes in jewelry. She'll tell us some of the tricks we should know to take a nice photo. Kim, welcome to the podcast.   Kim: Hi, Sharon. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited.    Sharon: How was it that you came to photographing jewelry? People photograph all sorts of things.    Kim: It's such a specific niche. About 10 years ago, I had a friend who came to me. She majored in sculpture, and she had just started dabbling in creating jewelry pieces. She said, “Can you photograph some of these?” I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't realize how reflective jewelry was, any of that. It's photographing little mirrors, but I did my best. I didn't know anything about focus stacking, which is really important in jewelry photography. I did my best, and we got some good photos. To this day, she's still my client 10 years later.   After that, about a year later, I actually got a full-time position as a staff photographer at a fashion merchandising company in New York. Some of the things we had to shoot were jewelry pieces, and then and there I really learned to hone my skills. I learned to use a lightbox, tools that are helpful. I can get into that later, but there are certain tools that are very helpful. I learned a lot at that job. Honestly, just from there, I've grown.   Sharon: It's true that photographing jewelry is harder than other things, would you say?   Kim: Oh, yes. I think it's the most difficult thing to photograph. I do various types of photography, and I say it's the most difficult.   Sharon: I never tried. I wouldn't want to try.   Kim: Making the diamonds sparkly, the opals really saturated. There are techniques for doing that.   Sharon: Is that like where you look at a picture and you know the model has makeup on and everything? Is that what you do in jewelry? Do you make a sapphire bluer?   Kim: Sometimes yes. We make it blue. We tweak it, saturate the colors. There are also composited things, which is a big part of it when you photograph a ring, for example, maybe either a diamond ring or an opal, whatever stone. I shoot the band in a certain lighting situation and then I'll change the lighting setup and photograph it just for the stones. There's a technique called compositing where I crop the stone into the other photo. It's the same with lots of different kinds of photographs, like a poster for a huge blockbuster film where they composite the airplanes, the props, whatever it is. It's the same thing. You just plug them in.   Sharon: What tools does an amateur photographer need? I always hear about a lightbox.   Kim: Yes, that's the number one. The most important thing you need is a lightbox. For people that don't know what a lightbox is, it's literally a box that's white or ideally translucent. I use a translucent paper. I actually built my own lightbox. You want it because you want to avoid reflections. That's basically what you're trying to do. If you put a ring on a table, you're going to see reflections coming from everywhere. So, you put it in a lightbox and shine your light through the box, which is why you want translucent paper ideally. That's the number one thing for anyone, whether you're an amateur or you're doing it just for fun. The second thing you need is a macro lens, which allows you to get really, really close up to these little, tiny pieces.   Sharon: Can you have a macro lens with an Apple camera, or do you need a special camera?   Kim: Yes, you need a DSLR. You need a special camera. If you're just starting out and you don't have access to that, you can use something not as high quality. But when you're getting into professional photography, you do need a DSLR camera and what's called a 100-millimeter macro lens, which allows you to get up close.    Sharon: You're making me not want to try it. Is there anything else that's essential besides the camera and the lightbox and the special kind of lens?   Kim: Then what it comes down to is the props and tools. For example, if we're photographing earrings—I'm giving away all my secrets—we'll use an earring stand, but ideally you want it to be clear. Everything that goes in the box should be clear. Sometimes, maybe at the trade shows, you'll see black velvet. You want to use clear everything, so you'll use clear earring stands or a necklace holder that's clear. Usually, it's made out of plexiglass, so it almost looks like it's floating in the air. Some clients like to add shadows to their pieces; some don't want shadows. Everyone has their own distinct vision for the jewelry photography of their own pieces, but that's really important.   Sharon: I'm going to be a lot more aware of it. Do the outlines of the plexiglass show, or do you just shoot through it?   Kim: Not many people would think to ask that. Yeah, it definitely shows. You can see the outline. That's something you have to remove in Photoshop. That's when those Photoshop skills are important.    I didn't realize this until I started really getting into jewelry photography. I used to just grab an item and put it in with my hands, and then I'd photograph it and go, “Oh, my gosh, I can see my fingerprints.” That's how close up you can get with these lenses. It's insane. It's wild. It's amazing, but yes, you need special jewelry cloth to make sure you're not getting dirt on it. You don't want to see any dirty spots on the pieces. You use special tweezers and tools like that. You want to make sure you're using the right things. If you have a piece in there and you say, “Oh, it's not symmetrical,” I used to just grab it with my fingers, and I'd either get fingerprints on it or I would turn it too far. Everything in jewelry photography is so slight and subtle that you need various delicate tools. You need to ever-so-slightly move the piece for placement.   Sharon: What did people do before Photoshop? I always wonder about that.   Kim: That is a great question. I wasn't around for that, but I've heard stories where you would hand paint it. You would do it by hand.    Sharon: Oh, gosh! Did you come to this photography because you like jewelry so much or would any kind of photography have satisfied you?   Kim: It's a combination of it starting off with my friend who's now a jewelry designer. That really launched it. I have to say, as I started photographing more jewelry, I've come to love jewelry so much. It's funny because I never knew my style, but now that I've seen so many pieces, I know what I'm into; I know my style. I have such an appreciation for that art. It's really beautiful.   Sharon: What's your style?   Kim: I love anything with starbursts or hearts. I love opals even though they're a little difficult to photograph. I love classic pieces, like the classic gold band, a chunky ring. Actually, right now I'm wearing my favorite everyday ring. It's one of my clients, Fox & Bond. I like anything feminine.   Sharon: Do you have to worry about photographing it if you're wearing it, if there's someone with an opal?   Kim: No, you don't. I've discovered the trick for photographing opals. Right now, I'm in my room. If I'm looking at it now it looks a little flat, but out in the sunshine, then you see that colored marbling. It's the same thing with artificial light. When I have it inside the lightbox, I need to almost recreate sunshine. I use what's called direct light. That means I don't have an umbrella on it. There's no diffusion on it. It's just hard light, and that's when you really see all the saturated colors and what makes an opal so beautiful.   Sharon: I hesitate to ask, and you can tell me if this is too technical for somebody who knows nothing, but what is focus stacking?   Kim: Focus stacking is the technique of taking multiple photos of a single piece and quite literally stacking them together. The thing with a macro lens is that you're getting so up close to the piece that it blurs out the rest of it. You might have the diamond sharp and in focus, but the shank is blurry; it's out of focus. So, I very slowly twist my lens to get every piece in focus. It's the diamond, then the beginning of the shank, then the middle, the back, every piece of it. This is especially important when you have engraving on the back of the band and you want that to be in focus. I typically take about 15 to 20 photos per piece. I use a special software called Helicon Focus. You plop those photos in that software and it knows how to stack them. It stacks them for you, and it spits out one sharp image. It's really interesting. It knows what's sharp and what's out of focus and merges them all together.   Sharon: Wow, it sounds interesting! What are the top three mistakes you see when you look in magazines or at trade shows?   Kim: Oh, I see a lot. Some reflections are O.K. They help add dimension. Highlights and reflections add dimension to any piece, but I think when it becomes distracting, when it's huge and you can't see what's going on or you go, “I see a person reflected in there,” that's when it becomes distracting. That's a big mistake.   And I think just making the stones look dull. That's another mistake I see. You want them to look shiny and crisp. You want to showcase the piece at its best. That's really, really important. Third, not photo stacking. I think it's important to photo stack. I see a lot of websites where the back is out of focus. It's soft. It would be nice to see the whole piece sharp and see how it looks because these pieces are so expensive. You're sitting on a computer, and you really want to know what you're ordering. I think it's important with these luxury items.    Sharon: Do you think it's true of less expensive items that aren't thousands of dollars? I'm thinking of when I go to trade shows and they say to me, “What do I need good photography for?”   Kim: I think it's important because, again, it showcases the piece in accuracy. Especially when you're listing investment pieces or an engagement ring or whatever it is, I think it's crucial. If it's something that's costume jewelry or lower end, maybe it's not as crucial, but especially with these luxury pieces, you want high-quality imagery to showcase it.    Sharon: Sometimes I've seen pictures of jewelry where I've had to look for the jewelry itself because of the background. Maybe it's a plant or something, but the jewelry has gotten lost.   Kim: Yeah, I was going to ask you that, actually. From your standpoint, when you're online looking at social media, in front of the screen, is it distracting? I would love to hear your perspective. You have it from my perspective.   Sharon: Once in a while I come across a photo where I really have to look, like, “Where's the ring you're talking about?” or “Where are the earrings?” It all runs together.   Kim: Oh no, that's not good. You definitely don't want to not be able to find the piece, and you definitely don't want anything distracting in the background. I want a solid-color background, ideally white. I've even had some of my clients—if there's a reflection in it, maybe it's the camera; it looks like a spot or a line—tell me that some customers think the piece is dirty. They don't realize it's a reflection. It's important. It can make or break a sale.    Sharon: I have to ask you. My feeling is that jewelry is not as big here as it is on the East Coast in New York. Did you find a difference, and did you find a difference in finding clients where you were out here?   Kim: I really started my jewelry journey here in Los Angeles. Like I said, I was working a full-time job. I was a staff photographer at a fashion merchandizing company, so I wasn't really pursuing clients. I think you're correct in that the jewelry world is probably bigger on the East Coast, but from my own experience, I don't know. I moved to Los Angeles and started here almost from scratch, but it's been good.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.

Well it has been a minute since we had a chance to catch up and record a podcast but in this episode Tamara shares her insights and experience from her recent family trip to Japan. Kim and Tamara also share their love for Scottsdale, Arizona and some of the things they did on a girls' trip together. Read more at: Scottsdale girls weekend Reasons to visit Scottsdale in summer Best Scottsdale Arizona resorts for girlfriends trips Scottsdale weekend itinerary Tamara also talked about her time in Paso Robles, California. You can read her Paso Robles itinerary to get inspired to visit this wine region. Kim attended conferences in Walt Disney World (read her tips for using DVC points to save money on a Disney World vacation), Disney Land, and San Antonio. She also took a family cruise to Alaska aboard the Norwegian Bliss, which was different from her Alaska cruise on Holland America last summer. Kim also took a quick press trip to Iceland, where she was able to explore Reykjavik and visit the Sky Lagoon. We really dug into Tamara's 2-week trip to Japan which included: 5 Days in Tokyo 5 Days in Kyoto 3 Days in Osaka If you are planning a trip, be sure to read Tamara's Japan travel tips! When talking about how great Google Maps can be to figure out transportation in Japan, Kim also mentioned her post about using Google Maps to plan a trip. Tamara was also just back from a short press trip to Waterton and Glacier National Parks. We will be traveling a lot over the summer so expect to hear another episode in the late summer. Then you will hear about Tamara's trip to Scotland & Wales, her river and barge cruises in France, and Kim's amazing trip to Kenya. Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.000] - Kim Today, we're journeying to the land of the rising sun.   [00:00:14.520] - Tamara Welcome to Vacation Mavens a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suicase and Tamara from We Three Travel.   [00:00:29.740] - Tamara Kim, I can't believe the last time I really talked to you was when we were together in Scottsdale in April.   [00:00:34.670] - Kim I know. It's been a crazy travel season for us. Good. I love that travel's back and everything, but it's also crazy because I thought we would be talking more and we've seen each other so much at the beginning of the year. And then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, summer is almost over.   [00:00:47.920] - Tamara Not quite. That was our intent was to have this monthly. We're struggling, guys. So if anyone is still listening and subscribe to us, which I hope that they are, we're going to do a quick little rundown of some of our recent travels. Now you'll see why we haven't been able to connect and record an episode.   [00:01:07.600] - Kim Yeah, exactly. It's been insane. The last time you guys heard from us, we were headed to Scottsdale, which was middle of April, and we both, I think, had an amazing trip there. We both published our articles, so you can always head to Wee 3 Travel and Stuff Suitcase and see the stuff that we covered. But I loved Scottsdale. It was great.   [00:01:25.720] - Tamara Yeah. I think Scottsdale just continues to be a place I want to go back to because there's so many beautiful resorts and hotels, so there's always some place new to check out. There's amazing spas. Then this time, we did a lot of really cool activities.   [00:01:41.370] - Kim I loved how it was really I think Scottsdale is a great destination a combination for being able to do outdoorsy things. We did hot air balloons, horseback riding, a few different things. But we also did wine tasting and shopping and went to some museums. Then, like you said, went to an amazing spot, the Phoenixion. Scottsdale, if you are a spa person, that's where you want to go.   [00:02:03.230] - Tamara I've been watching our friend, Colleen, that lives out in Scottsdale. She seems to be hopping around another spa every day. I'm like, Wow, I want to come be your friend right now.   [00:02:12.830] - Kim I think everyone's been saying that, I want your job.   [00:02:15.790] - Tamara I'm sure. I would definitely say romantic getaway, girlfriend get away. Scottsdale is amazing for that. There's plenty to do with the family as well because of all those outdoor activities. But definitely check out. I know I have an itinerary. You have some great suggestions on things to do in the summer and how to manage the heat out there. D efinitely check those out on our websites to see more.   [00:02:39.620] - Kim So where did you head after Scottsdale?   [00:02:41.800] - Tamara I went right from Scottsdale to T uson to see Hannah for a little bit. And then the following week, I went to Paso Robles, which I'd learned.   [00:02:51.090] - Kim I always said it was Paso Robles. Oh, it's Robles.   [00:02:52.980] - Tamara Yeah. And it's actually Robles. And I'm like, I feel silly saying Robles.   [00:02:57.270] - Kim Yeah, it sounds like Marbles.   [00:02:58.630] - Tamara But that is a wine region in central California near San Louis Biscoe. I just love it. I was there, I think it was nine or eight years ago with the family, and we were checking out some family friendly wineries there. But it has just exploded in terms of the number of wineries, but also really good food now. The downtown has expanded. I stayed in a new boutique hotel that was just I loved it, which was so cool. It has a rooftop bar. It had a wine, actually a champagne vending machine in the lobby. Oh, I saw that. I saw your story on that. Yeah. So I had a great time out there. And I definitely think anyone that's into wine, put that on your radar as a region to visit. You can easily spill a long weekend. I had a couple of really wonderful spots that I went for wine tasting, just those perfect, incredible views, great food, wonderful wine. I think where many, many years ago it was newer to the scene or it was well known for J. L oor, some of the bigger names. There's just so much going on out there.   [00:04:02.940] - Tamara Where did you go next? Because I know you were really busy right after our.   [00:04:06.130] - Kim Scottsdale trip, too. I had three trips back to back. I did go to Disney World for a conference and I got to ride the new Tron ride. I also checked out a new hotel, which was the Contemporary Hotel, which I had never been to. I loved that. I really do love the splurging on those Disney World hotels that have the monorail access and the ones we've been at Revere too with the Skyliner because, man, it's amazing how much easier it is just to get into and not have to deal with the bus system because then whenever I have to wait for a bus to one of the parks and it's like, inevitably I get there and I'm the last one, I've got to wait for 20.   [00:04:39.400] - Tamara Minutes or something. I will say that's what I liked the most about Disneyland because I've never stayed on park at Disney World. I've only stayed at partner hotels and by hotels.   [00:04:50.150] - Kim Yeah, it is a big splurge for sure. I have a great article about that, though, because we splurged and used... We rented DVC points to be able to stay, and it's still not cheap. It was for the graduation trip and stuff, and this one does a conference hotel rate. I'm definitely not saying it's cheap, affordable, but if you do want to splurge, renting DVC points, and I have a link, so if anyone wants it, or you can look up the how I saved $2,000 plus dollars at Disney World. I have how we did that in there. I actually just tried to do it for Disneyland, but they didn't have any availability because Disneyland only has one property, almost two. Anyways, I did that. But then right after that, I also went on another Alaskan cruise, which you and I have talked about a few times. I'll soon have a couple of articles updated, but this was more of just a family cruise, so I didn't actually treat it like a work trip, which was nice to.   [00:05:39.930] - Tamara Just relax. Which cruise were you on this time, though? Because I feel like was it last summer that you did celebrity?   [00:05:44.310] - Kim Holland last August, which I absolutely loved. I loved Holland. I haven't done celebrity in Alaska yet, but Holland America was awesome. This time we did Norwegian because my family has status with there, and so they like to book Norwegian. We did the bliss, which we have been on the bliss before for a little media sailing when they started it.   [00:06:02.560] - Tamara That's the one that we took.   [00:06:03.920] - Kim To Alaska. Yeah, exactly. Family trip. Yeah. Anyway, so that was that. Then I had one other conference, then back to Disneyland. I hit both the parks within about three weeks of each other, but that was a lot of fun and just...   [00:06:17.460] - Tamara You should have really had a Disney.   [00:06:19.000] - Kim Cruise in the middle. I should have. That would have been perfect. Yeah, exactly. But anyways, that was a wrap up for me. My final trip that I did was I went at the end of May and went to San Antonio for another conference. It feels like most of mine were conferences. I was just conference out. But San Antonio is a cool city. It's been a while since I've been there. I went there for one day when I went to school in Texas for a little while. It was fun checking out San Antonio. But I know you've done a lot of other travels that did not involve conferences.   [00:06:51.170] - Tamara Yeah, I'm like, Have I? I guess. You forget by now. Yeah, that's for sure. Well, I went back to T uson a week and a half later to pick up Hannah and bring her back from school. Then we were home for a week. Then we did our two week trip to Japan. Then I was home for, I don't know, two weeks. Then I just did a real quicky trip to Glacier National Park area.   [00:07:14.290] - Kim Right. I forgot you went to glacier and I went to Iceland. I forgot to mention that. Oh, yeah. I'm blanking on June. I forgot June even existed. Sorry, I was just focusing on up to May, but yeah, definitely. I didn't get to experience the Iceland you got to experience because we stuck around Reykjavik and just explored a couple of attractions that were around there. So it was a quick, quick trip. But Mia is quite the little outdoor lover and cultured lover, so I definitely want to go back to Iceland with her because I know she'll just love to do some of the exploration that you've done.   [00:07:48.850] - Tamara I was going to say, I'll meet you there. Yeah, definitely. I'm always ready to go back there. Yeah, well, I'll definitely put all of these links to articles in our show notes so you guys can read more. But I think.   [00:08:00.800] - Kim That's a good way to do it. But I think we should dive into Japan because it is a very hot destination. I'm still so sad because ours was canceled. We were supposed to be going in April 2020, so we switched off and now you got to finally live the vacation that I was dreaming about back then. I think we should give everyone just a really quick rundown because I know that you have done an amazing job of writing a whole bunch of articles that are really going to be useful for people who are planning a trip to Japan. Let's just start off and give you an idea of how many days were you there and how maybe did you break up your itinerary?   [00:08:36.480] - Tamara Yeah, absolutely. We took two weeks because especially coming from the East Coast, it's just such a long trip. Honestly, it's been on the top of our bucket list for so long, but we just haven't had two weeks where we felt comfortable to go that far knowing we're going to deal with jet lag on the way back. And then the flights are just always so expensive. But at least I was able to use points for one of our flights. So we took two weeks. I flew out on a Saturday morning. Yes, I got there on a Sunday, and then we were supposed to come back on Saturday, but we came back on Sunday because of a weather delay. But anyway, so I did five days in Tokyo, five days in Kyoto, and then three nights in Osaka. When I first started planning the trip, a lot of people told me that I would only need two or three days in Tokyo. But as I was looking at everything that we wanted to do, I was like, I really feel like I could easily spend a week here. It's just a fascinating city. There's just the ultra modern, and then there's the more traditional and each neighborhood is so huge.   [00:09:42.570] - Tamara I think what many people don't realize is just how large the cities are. It's funny, I was talking to my mom before I left, and I don't think she's kept up on modern times as much. There's no way she's listening to this podcast, so I can say it. But she was like, Oh, I showed a picture when we went. She's like, Sky scrapers? I wasn't expecting that. I'm like, What do you think? It's rural villages. But this is the biggest city in the world.   [00:10:09.310] - Kim Yeah, for sure.   [00:10:11.080] - Tamara So it's so huge. And I'm used to going to Europe where even though the cities can be really large, we always stay in that historic, more central area where you're mostly walking. You're taking the metro, but you're primarily walking around a lot. And you may pick a neighborhood, I think about Paris. You pick a neighborhood each day. But in Tokyo, to get to a certain neighborhood, it might be 45 minutes on the couple of connections with the subway and stuff. So I'm glad that we did five days. That's crazy. I could end that was within without doing the Disney stuff, which I know many people like to do when they go there.   [00:10:49.630] - Kim I do know that as a Disney person, it would be hard for me to go to Tokyo and not do Disney, at least Disney Sea, because it's considered a really unique park.   [00:11:00.330] - Tamara Yeah, that's what everyone says. It's unlike any of the others. I get it. But we're not as.   [00:11:06.430] - Kim Into the.   [00:11:06.990] - Tamara Theme parks. Glenn was like, I am not going around the world to go to theme parks.   [00:11:11.590] - Kim Exactly. When you have limited, yes, it's totally valid. I mean, it's very hard to figure out. I agree. I get what he's saying, but I also have that side of me that's like, Oh, but how can you be this close and not do it? So it's very hard to balance that. So, yeah, it sounds good. So you were saying, I know you guys... So I'm picturing Tokyo for my own planning. So you guys were in the Northwestern side of where you look at the downtown to the...   [00:11:38.990] - Tamara Right. The Shizuku neighborhood, which some people were like, oh, do you want to stay there? It's like Times Square. And the area right around the train station is lots of neon, lots of crazy, especially at night. But we were honestly within a 10 minute walk to that, but where we were was more like, business, like government buildings, things like that. So it was really quiet, peaceful. It was great. And we stayed at the Hilton, Tokyo, and it was basically on top of... You could go just down an escalator and connect to two different subway stations. Plus they had a free shuttle if you wanted to the Shinkoku train station. So it was really very accessible. It felt very convenient. And there was plenty of restaurants and things around, but it wasn't super expensive. I don't know how expensive, really, but the Ginza area is much more high end. And then the Shiboya would be nice. But it totally.   [00:12:43.620] - Kim Worked for us. We were happy with it. Nice. That's perfect. Yeah. I had looked at staying in the ginza area because of a few... I was also liked that it was closer to the Disney side, so it was a little easier to get out there. For those of you planning Genza area is basically opposite, diagonal across from where tomorrow states. I've heard the same thing from my research. You really have to allow a lot of time to transfer if you're going to different sides of what you consider the downtown center, 45 minutes to get across sometimes. Kind of crazy. Great. Well, what were some of the highlights then that you guys did when you were in Tokyo?   [00:13:17.970] - Tamara We did a sushi making workshop with True Japan, and we really enjoyed it. The ladies were just really friendly and funny and nice. And so it was fun to see what goes into making sushi. And you probably know that I'm not a sushi eater, really. And we can talk about food later because it worked out better than I expected, except for a couple of times. But it was just fun. It's such a huge part of the culture. So I enjoyed that. We didn't do a whole lot of tours and things. We did a lot of exploring on our own. But the one thing that everybody has to do, which was as amazing as you would think, was the team lab planets, which is that immersive art experience where there's water and flowers and reflections. It's just unlike anything else. And it's really cool. And we've done the traveling, like van go immersive experience. But this was turning that up times 10 or more. And Hannah really loved it. It was really cool. The thing about it is you definitely have to book your tickets well in advance because just one of those things you have a timed entry.   [00:14:30.970] - Tamara It's super popular. And honestly, when it comes to planning Japan, you really need to plan really far in advance. I mean, if you want to get restaurant reservations, some of them book up a month in advance. I think because some of them are so small that if they could take reservations, it might be for eight seats. And so they just go really quickly. And we weren't even there during cherry blossom season or golden week in early May when it's extra busy. difficult to do that. It was amazing. But I would say those are definitely highlights. I just loved exploring different areas. We did go, surprisingly, I liked this, but we went to a sumo wrestling tournament. Yeah, I wonder if I saw that. Which sometimes when people are there, they can see a practice. But there was actually a tournament going on while we were there. So that was something that I had figured out ahead of time. And when the tickets went on sale, I was able to book those the day that they were released. And it was a very cool thing. You don't want to spend hours and hours there because you don't know who the guys are.   [00:15:33.160] - Tamara But just like you could see how excited everyone was to cheer for their favorite, the local person or whatever. And it's just such a dramatic theatrical type of sport. It was interesting. Yeah, for sure. Those are some of my highlights.   [00:15:48.770] - Kim That's awesome. Because I know I saw some of the restaurant experiences you had. It seemed like sometimes you guys went simple and basic, but other times you went really over the top. Anything in Tokyo that you think somebody should splurge on or any savings tips for food or eating in Tokyo other than the restaurants making the reservations?   [00:16:08.160] - Tamara Yeah, we did mostly the casual places in Tokyo. What I was trying to do, because I'm not a sushi eater, is have a variety of foods. And in Japan, all the restaurants really specialize in one thing. They do ramen, they do tempura, they do soba noodles, different things like that. So there's so many different styles of food to try within Japanese cuisine that we just booked a different style of food each night. And honestly, in some of them, we had to line up for the first night that we got there, we went to a place where it opened up five, and we got there at 445, and there was already probably 40 people in line for a 10 seat little place. And you basically you would wait till there was enough space in line. There was people sitting at the counter eating and then people standing behind them waiting for the second that they got up to sit in.   [00:16:56.790] - Kim Their seat. Oh, my goodness.   [00:16:57.810] - Tamara Oh, wow. And you had a vending machine, which is typical. Yeah, a vending machine to order from. So it's typical in a lot of ramen shops. So there's pictures and you just hit the button of what you want. You put in the money, you get a ticket and you hand.   [00:17:11.650] - Kim The person the ticket. That's like McDonald's.   [00:17:13.780] - Tamara Yeah. I'm just kidding. Those.   [00:17:16.820] - Kim Screams in the middle. They have one at Tim Horton's as well. So of.   [00:17:20.940] - Tamara Course, I made a mistake the first time because I saw people with a broth, which I thought was a ramen, and then a bowl of noodles. And I'm like, oh, that's so I saw on the machine that they had dipping noodles and they had ramen. And then you could add extra things, but only if you could tell what the picture was because it was otherwise in Japanese. And so I ordered dipping noodles because it looked really good and ramen because I thought that that's what people had. And then when I handed the girl the ticket, she was like, for one person?   [00:17:51.710] - Kim Oh, no. And she was like, you.   [00:17:53.890] - Tamara Want small or large? Because I was like, oh, is that not what they have? And she was like, no, they have. Because the dipping noodles come with a broth, so I thought it was that they had two.   [00:18:02.980] - Kim Different things in front of them. Oh, and bologna.   [00:18:04.650] - Tamara Yeah. Okay, got you. But I'm really glad that I did it because both were delicious. So I'm happy to sample both. But then Glenn ordered on his ramen, Scallions, and it was covered. It was like a mountain of Scallions because I was like extra. But it was like, if you get extra cheese on a pizza, it's like extra.   [00:18:23.110] - Kim Extra extra. Oh, my goodness. Crazy. I mean, I love Scallions, but I don't know if I could handle the mountain of them.   [00:18:27.560] - Tamara It was crazy. So you make those little mistakes. But we did a lot of the more casual things. And the hard thing is that honestly, I kept saying this, but there's very little in between. So there are the places where you... First of all, Japanese people love to line up, which is really hard when you're visiting and you're tired and you want to be able to eat with a certain time. People wait for two hours to get into this little ramen place or whatever. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, because you're like, I'm tired. I've been running all day. We were running like 5 to 9 miles. We were doing a lot of walking every day. So I'm like, I just want to sit down. So that's why we tried to do some reservations. But there were the really casual, inexpensive, really inexpensive places. And then there's the crazy, crazy high end... Some of the Sushi places, I'm like, there's no way. Because some of them charge up to like $500.   [00:19:19.820] - Kim A person. Oh, my goodness.   [00:19:21.930] - Tamara Insane. That's crazy. So there's just not a lot of middle ground is what I found. Okay, good to know. But the low end, not low end, but the inexpensive stuff is really good.   [00:19:31.970] - Kim Yeah, of course. You just have to go on to wait for it.   [00:19:35.440] - Tamara Yeah, exactly. And honestly, one day... So we had a bit of a rough start because Glenn had a stomach bug the day before we left. So the whole flight over and everything, he basically didn't eat for a couple of days. And then I had a really bad cold the day before we left. And for two days, I was so nervous, I'm testing. I'm like, Please.   [00:19:57.490] - Kim Don't let it be.   [00:19:58.350] - Tamara And it was. And it was just a cold, but I was still super congested, so it was just hard. And in Japanese society, you can't blow.   [00:20:06.290] - Kim Your nose.   [00:20:06.970] - Tamara In public. So I'm trying to be so discreet, going outside and blowing my nose and sanitizing and tucking it into my pocket know, like very... Like trying to be really conscious of that and trying to be super sanitary. But Hannah did end up getting a cold also. One day she was just not feeling up to going out and doing a tour and stuff. So we're like, just stay here and sleep. It was going to be the day that we toured one neighborhood and then we went to the sumo wrestling, and she wasn't super into that anyway. So we're just sleep. And then she went out on her own and she found a 7 11 because just like everybody says, 7 11 has amazing convenience food. So you can buy these really good sandwiches and all that stuff. So there's definitely plenty of ways that you can eat cheap there.   [00:20:56.090] - Kim That's good to know. So then from Tokyo, you went to Kyoto? Yes. Kyoto is such a different vibe. Yeah, the bullet train, right?   [00:21:05.570] - Tamara Yeah. So a couple of things to know about the bullet train is that we had gotten the JR pass, which allows you to use all the JR trains. We got the national ones, so you could use bullet trains as well, except the super fast ones weren't included. And we had gotten one that allows us to make seat reservations. And you also, if you're bringing luggage on the train, you now need to make a reservation for the luggage. And this is for more of a checked bag size luggage, not the carry on size. But we were there for two weeks, so we had checked bags. So you can make a reservation for the last row of seats where the luggage can go behind you, or there's a couple of spots on a luggage rack, but they're really cutting down on luggage on trains. Or you can ship your bags ahead, which we ended up actually a couple of times just shipping our bags ahead. And it only costs $20 a bag. It's waiting for you in the hotel when you get there. It takes 24 hours. So you need to have a small bag with all your stuff for.   [00:22:06.140] - Kim Then one day. Yeah.   [00:22:07.320] - Tamara But we took the bullet train and that worked really well. We saw Mount Fuji because it was a nice day out. So and we ended up like, we got to Kyoto and we just put our bags in a locker and then we took a local train out to Nara, which is about a half hour away or so, maybe 45 minutes. And there's a really beautiful, huge temple out there. But also it's known for their deer park, which Glenn, years ago, because we both work for a Japanese company, so he's been to Japan many times, but 25 years ago. And so he would always tell us about the deer in Nara that bow to you to get fed. Oh, right. And the deer have changed a bit in the last few years.   [00:22:53.320] - Kim Yes. I've heard about this stuff. They have this issue at the monkey place, too.   [00:22:57.310] - Tamara They were so aggressive. That's too bad. They were grabbing my shirt and pulling on my shirt. They nipped my butt. I'm like, Whoa. I feel like all these videos of Glenn and I trying to run away from the deer and we're like, Oh, no. Let's just get away from where the food is so that the deer are calmer. But it's funny because later in the trip, we went to the island of Miyajima, and they have wild deer there also. And one of them followed me into the visitor center, went over to the desk, grabbed a brochure, and then ran out.   [00:23:29.250] - Kim Because they like to get the paper.   [00:23:31.240] - Tamara And so the person comes running out behind the desk, yelling at the deer. And then there's three people in the street trying to wrestle the paper away from the deer.   [00:23:39.390] - Kim Oh, my goodness.   [00:23:40.590] - Tamara And I'm like, You think of deer in the headlights, these gentle creatures.   [00:23:45.240] - Kim Yeah, exactly. It's sad when humanity is like, Yeah, I won't get there.   [00:23:51.560] - Tamara No, it's definitely because there's too many tourists now. They're being fed. Definitely not a great situation. But we did enjoy the day trip out there. Yeah, for sure. I love everything about Japan. It's just so clean and orderly and polite and easy to figure out. My type A personality just really appreciates the order of things. I would like that too. The fact that everybody stands in a line and waits and then you get on when you get on. I love that because in a society where everyone's pushing or whatever, I get.   [00:24:27.400] - Kim Super stressed out. Oh, my gosh, I hated it. We were on a cruise, a European cruise, and that attracts a lot of Europeans. I thought, Oh, you wait in line for your turn to go get your food that you want served. But no, people just come up from other directions and just walk right up. There's no line concept. I'm like, Oh, I like lines. What am I supposed to do? So sorry.   [00:24:49.240] - Tamara I get that. You would love Japan. I think it's such a wonderful place to visit. I think there must be challenges if you live there within the culture. I recognize that I used to work for a Japanese company. I'm aware of many of those issues, but as a visitor, it makes it so pleasant. But anyway, I was going to say that they have lockers where you can store things. Everything is just easy. The trains, everything is in Japanese and English.   [00:25:19.260] - Kim I know they did a big push with that before the Olympics were going to be there. They were trying to...   [00:25:25.180] - Tamara And all of the trains have signs that say what the next stop is. Because sometimes you're on a subway and you're trying to look and you're like, Oh, yeah. They might not answer, but you're like, What was that?   [00:25:36.320] - Kim What did they say?   [00:25:37.460] - Tamara That's Charlie Brown's.   [00:25:38.740] - Kim Teacher talking to you. Exactly. I've had that happen so many times.   [00:25:43.040] - Tamara So that part was great. And Kyoto is just very different. So it is more traditional in the architecture. They preserved a lot of the traditional architecture. There's tons of shrines and temple s o that's the thing is that you could get a little shrine and templed out, but the architecture is so beautiful. There is a downtown center city that's more city like, but it's nothing like Tokyo.   [00:26:09.310] - Kim Or Nagasaki. I remember when we were looking to stay in Kyoto, I seem to recall because we were going to go during... We were hoping for cherry blossom season, but I seem to recall there it's still pretty spread out and there's little neighborhoods in Kyoto even. It's like, okay, this one has more of this vibe and this one I can't remember where we were staying, but I was looking at the different things and getting the bamboo forest, like, oh, well, I'd have to leave here and we want to be near a train station.   [00:26:32.970] - Tamara All those plans. Yeah, you do want to be near a train station because the metro system is not as well developed there. So we took a mix of busses, GR trains, private trains that you paid for the same way you'd pay for a subway. But when we stayed at the Hyatt Regency, which was probably about a 10 minute walk to one of the train stations, but there was a bus that stopped right outside that then went to the main Kyoto station, which is where we would get on to go to the bamboo forest. And then, yeah, so it was conveniently located, but you definitely needed to plan your travel because some of those destinations, especially many of them were taking slower local trains, and they could still take 45 minutes to.   [00:27:26.150] - Kim An hour. That was one of the things in my planning that was the hardest is recognizing that there are so many different train lines, like brands, and you might have a pass with one, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can go on every train that's coming in. So it's an interesting thing that I've never... I'm sure maybe it's in other places around the world, but it's not something we think about in the states at all.   [00:27:49.420] - Tamara The nice thing, though, is that we had our JR pass, which, by the way, I don't even know if they're going to be that useful after this fall because the price is almost doubling. It's going up. It's having some. Unless ticket prices are going up a lot also, you might just want to buy individual tickets.   [00:28:04.190] - Kim Individual.   [00:28:04.600] - Tamara Ticket, yeah. But we bought, as soon as we got, we had ordered the JR passes ahead, so we had our voucher that we had to turn in to get the actual pass. Then we went to an ATM because you needed cash for a lot of things. We have to also use cash to get an IC card. So this is the rechargeable card that you would use to get on the metro or the bus or something like that. But the nice thing is that unlike, Oh, I'm going to New York, I need a metro card. I'm going to this place, I need that card for their.   [00:28:32.660] - Kim Subway system. Yeah, like Long Island Railroad and Metro card.   [00:28:35.370] - Tamara Yeah, exactly. This card worked for all of them. And it also works for a lot of vending machines.   [00:28:41.990] - Kim Some convenient stores.   [00:28:42.850] - Tamara Yeah, the vending machine.   [00:28:43.690] - Kim I forgot. And you reload it always with cash, though? You always have to reload it only cash. You can't reload it with cash.   [00:28:48.300] - Tamara Yeah, which is so bizarre. It's like this is a digital payment system and I'm loading it with cash.   [00:28:53.590] - Kim I wonder if it's because they want to make sure that you're actually paying for it. They don't want you to just be able to dispute it and have gotten the ride for free or gotten the food for free. You know what I mean? I wonder if it's a culture thing.   [00:29:04.840] - Tamara I do know that it used to be, before COVID, a very cash based society. Now more and more places will take a credit card. And if you have, there's a lot of... Not many places take Apple Pay, but a lot of them do take a tap payment system, but more one that they have in Asia. I don't know if it's really worth signing up and trying to figure that out. Got you. I just basically used my.   [00:29:28.420] - Kim Chip credit card. The IC card and.   [00:29:30.030] - Tamara The card anytime for that. And the IC card for the metro, the bus, some vending machines, some required cash still. But yeah, it's just super convenient. So even though there are different trains, so yeah, maybe you can't use your free pass, not for you because you.   [00:29:44.710] - Kim Paid a lot for it.   [00:29:45.480] - Tamara But it's still pretty easy to get around.   [00:29:49.930] - Kim Yeah, it's good. That's great. And I do want to quickly, before we jump over to finishing up Kyoto and going to Asaka, I did want to mention something that you did that I think was brilliant because I even had looked into doing it when we were planning our trip. And that was you had someone meet you at the airport, right?   [00:30:05.450] - Tamara Yeah, I did. And don't do it. At least not for the company that I did. Okay, here we go. You and I had talked about it. I think it was about $75 to $100. It was the company that I bought the JR Pass from. I also arranged to rent a mobile hotspot, so that was taken care of ahead of time to pick up at the airport. And I arranged to have a greeter meet us after customs. And then what I was told was that that greeter would then take me to do the things I need to do at the airport, which would be pick up my mobile hotspot, exchange my JR Pass, get my IC card, find where I need to go to get my transfer.   [00:30:45.390] - Kim Get the train.   [00:30:46.220] - Tamara I figured, hey, it's not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things.   [00:30:51.800] - Kim And especially.   [00:30:52.310] - Tamara After traveling.   [00:30:52.820] - Kim For 20 hours.   [00:30:53.250] - Tamara And I want to be jet lived. Yeah, exactly. This will be useful. It was such a waste of money because first I'm trying to talk to the guy, I'm like, okay, we need to go to an ATM, and he's not even understanding what I'm saying. I'm like, You're a greeter. I'm not coming in there with like, everyone should speak English, but his job is.   [00:31:11.680] - Kim To meet people. When you pay people. Yeah, exactly. I know a lot of times they'll have if you want to in English or if you want to in... You can specify a language, but.   [00:31:20.330] - Tamara It seems like it's... Yeah. So one person had my name up and then she called this guy over. So it's like a service they do for multiple people. They had multiple greeters there. I don't know if I just got an inexperienced person, but I went to the counter of the mobile WiFi hotspot place and that person spoke perfect English, no trouble communicating at all.   [00:31:40.320] - Kim And it was easy to find. And you were able to easily find everything.   [00:31:42.690] - Tamara Yeah. I mean, he led me there, but I could have found it on my own, no problem. And then I was trying to explain that I wanted to go to the JR ticket office to get our pass, but also see if he could help us make reservations. Yeah, exactly. Because I wanted to make the reservations as soon as I had my pass because I wanted to try to get the luggage reservations. And he was just like, Oh, no, they don't do reservations here. And I'm like, Oh, well, that's part of why I wanted to pay for this service because I wanted somebody to help me translate what my need was. And meanwhile, we were back and forth, just not understanding each other. So then I get in line at the JR ticket office. I get up there, perfect English from the person that's behind the desk, completely easy to talk to. They didn't make the reservations there. They told me where to go in the Tokyo station or Shinchu station, whatever, which I did the next day. That person also spoke really good English, was able to communicate no problem. And then I was trying to explain that I want to get an IC card.   [00:32:38.620] - Tamara And he was like, Well, you can get the one that requires a deposit or not a deposit. I'm like, I don't care? Can you just tell me where? And he didn't know where to go. Finally, the guy that was behind me in line at the JR ticket office was like, Oh, you want this line right here. And I'm like, Thank you. Then I'm like, What? Then I had arranged for an airport limo bus to take us from the airport directly to our hotel. I just thought first day, and it's really, it's inexpensive. Taxis there are very expensive, but this is inexpensive. And instead of having to drag some bags on multiple trains and subways, I thought it's easy. And so I was like, I thought all that would take us an hour and a half, maybe, from the time we arrived. So I had booked a later bus, but it was really quick to do all of it. So I was like, Oh, maybe we can get an earlier bus. So I was trying to get him to help us with that. No. So I ended up just doing it on my phone. But then he had to come down and he was like, No, I have to wait.   [00:33:42.890] - Tamara Because I was like, Okay, we're all set. Thank you. Bye. And he's like, No, I have to wait till you get on the bus. I'm like, All right, well, can you just stand over there? Because I'm like, I'm done.   [00:33:52.120] - Kim Yeah, exactly. You did not help me. Wow. Okay, well, that's good tip. Good to know.   [00:33:56.970] - Tamara What not to.   [00:33:58.150] - Kim Do, I guess. What not, yeah. No, I mean, it's good because I had considered that too because I was thinking the same thing like, Oh, my gosh, how am I going to get my pass? I was thinking all that same stuff.   [00:34:07.930] - Tamara Cool. I think a lot of things with travel, it feels so overwhelming. But once you're there, you're like, Oh, this is not as bad as I.   [00:34:13.260] - Kim Thought it was going to be. Well, especially in a country that you can't even get around with. It's like, Oh, I speak a little Spanish. I speak a little French. It's just like, None of that's going to help you. You don't want to go in being a ignorant traveler who's just like, Oh, why don't you speak my language in your country? Exactly. I can't stand people like that. But anyways, okay, good to know. Anything else about Kyoto you wanted to mention? I did think it was awesome, your little tip about the bamboo forest. It wasn't really a tip, but I was so happy that you had that experience because I heard the same thing.   [00:34:44.990] - Tamara When I was there, even, I saw some people on Instagram that seem to be there at the same time, but a couple of days before me. And they showed just this mass of people walking through. Because the word is out that for many of these things, you need to get there early. And so even if you show up at 7 AM, there's still this massive crowd of people funneling through this little area. And I don't want to do that. It was an hour away. No one's getting up at 5 AM to get to a place by 7 or whatever just to take a photo. My family doesn't roll like that. They're like, I don't really care about your photo. We just want to see it. And so we decided to sleep in a little bit. We went, we had lunch, then we went to the monkey forest. And I will say the whole Arashima area is, for a touristy area, so much nicer than I expected. It was really lovely. And there's a really pretty river that runs along that on some days you can run boats. It was really nice. Anyway, so we went to the monkey park first because Glenn loves monkeys, although it's such a steep climb up there, he was like, This better be worth it.   [00:35:53.700] - Tamara Actually, there was a fan of it that was like, This better be worth it for your monkeys. But it was cool. We saw a lot of baby monkeys. The monkeys were not aggressive at all. They just hung out as long as you followed the rules. You weren't staring at them in the eyes to challenge them or something. Then we went to a temple, then we went to the forest. So we got to the Grove, not really a forest. It's much smaller than you think it's going to be. We got there maybe like 2.30, 3 o'clock, and it was fine. There was people there, but no crush of crowd and plenty of space to have a photo. Yeah, there's people in the background, but that's fine. Honestly, we just wanted a couple of family photos. I'm not going to win an Instagram competition over it, but it was nice. And it's really beautiful. It's really pretty. But sometimes I think doing the opposite of what everyone says.   [00:36:47.700] - Kim You should do and work out. Especially when it's been around for so long, people are saying do that because it's very much like, oh, the gates open at seven. And so everyone who's built up, it's just like Disneyland. People say, oh, rope drop, rope drop. And you get there. And if you get there late, there's such a long line to get in. And then people come 30 minutes after opening and they walked right up to the turnstiles. There's something about that.   [00:37:10.900] - Tamara Yeah. And I looked at Google Maps is wonderful. It was so helpful for the travel, figuring out the trains because it would say what platform, but also what car to get on if you were transferring. And then when you were leaving the station, what exit to take because those train stations are huge. So you're like, you don't know where you are when you come out. So it was really, really helpful. And it would tell you like eight minutes, 3 stops, here's the name of your stop. This is how much it's going to cost. It was really very helpful. But you can also look for attractions, and it'll show you the busiest times, like a little graph.   [00:37:47.100] - Kim Yes, for sure.   [00:37:47.990] - Tamara I was like, Okay, it looks like 10 to 2 is super busy. Who knows how accurate it is, but let's go.   [00:37:53.690] - Kim After it. I have a good article about how I use Google Maps and you can make a custom and saver on map to help you with your planning to help see stuff for not just road trips, but also when you're planning a city vacation. But that's a good thing. I always forget about how they have that busy season section. I should add that to my post because.   [00:38:11.540] - Tamara That's a.   [00:38:12.160] - Kim Useful thing.   [00:38:13.300] - Tamara When you're trying to figure out, especially for public transportation, many times the night before, I would look like, Oh, how long is it going to take? Because we need to know what time should we be done breakfast? What time do we need to leave? I like that there's a little drop down where you can say when you're departing or when you want to arrive because it changes. Especially public transportation may not have as many trains when you're looking late at night versus when you're going in the morning.   [00:38:42.000] - Kim Totally. That's awesome. I always worry about the train, the car thing, because even in New York, sometimes I've been like... Because I'm not used to using trains often. When I first started going to New York and doing that, the Long Island Rail Railroad and stuff, they have certain cars they don't open the doors to all the time. During different hours of the day. I'm always like, Oh, how do I know what car I'm in? It's definitely one of those Charlie Brown teacher's voices. Sometimes I'm like, I have no idea where I'm at.   [00:39:10.980] - Tamara That's the other great thing. In Japan, it's like, on the avement on the platform, it has numbers. So it's like, you know exactly what car that's going to be. Oh, man. And then everyone lines up single file behind those on either side of the.   [00:39:26.830] - Kim Door for.   [00:39:27.350] - Tamara Everyone to come out and then they go on.   [00:39:29.780] - Kim It's lovely. Lovely. Nice. Okay, so then your last little stop was OSAKA. So why don't you tell us a little bit about that? Because I had planned that we were going to fly into Tokyo and out of OSAKA, but you ended up going back to Tokyo to go home. But what did you do in Osaka?   [00:39:45.130] - Tamara Yeah, flying out of OSAKA would be ideal, but for us, Delta doesn't do that. So we had to go back to Tokyo. So OSAKA is known as the Japan's Kitchen, so it's known for its street food. So I knew I wanted to take a food tour when we were there because it's just that's really one of the things it's well known for. So I ended up... We actually got there, we explored a little bit. We did the... You made a sky building, which actually Glenn did not do. No surprise that when we went up high, especially there's these glass enclosed elevators that go between two towers on the 39th floor. And he was like, Are you kidding me? No way am I doing that. So Hannah and I did that. And then that night we actually went to a baseball game, which was really fun because Japanese culture is really into baseball. And it was like being at a college game in a way because they were playing Hiroshima, so that's not far away. Half the stadium were Buffalo fans and half the stadium were carp fans and they all sat on the right side.   [00:40:49.140] - Tamara So it's like one half was red, one half was white. And they each had a cheering section in a band. And so you felt like you were a little bit at a college game with the marching band thing. It was a lot of fun. But then the next day we took a food tour with Arrogato Travel, and they have food tours in multiple cities. If you want to do a food tour in any of the cities, I would definitely recommend them. The guide was amazing.   [00:41:13.870] - Kim It seemed like you had a really good time.   [00:41:15.920] - Tamara Yeah, she was really wonderful. She had lived in the US for a little bit. I think she went to the University of Wisconsin. She lived somewhere else in the Midwest, too, but it's just such a funky, fun city. We toured this area called Shenzakai. It was built after World War II to attract Westerners and has more of a Coney Island vibe is what they were going for. It has carnival games and all these street food things. It's just so funky and retro. I think anywhere else I would have been like, Oh, this is cheesy. But it was actually really cool. And all throughout that area and the Dontambury area of Osaka, all of the food places, it's like Vegas for food places because they all have these three-dimensional facades with a giant octopus or a giant crab, and they're moving and lit up, and it's just so funky. There was one place where you could fish for your own fish, and then they cook it for you. It's almost hard to describe, but it is just bright lights, really funky, interesting, but lots of street food, lots of fried food on a stick, or like.   [00:42:30.660] - Kim A fair.   [00:42:31.420] - Tamara No, I'm just kidding. And the takeyaki octopus balls is like, that's where that's from. So that's like really huge. Afterwards, we went to the Don Donburi and we had Okonomiyaki. My family always laughs at me because for some reason I could never get this out. And Hannah and Glenn are like, Why can you not say this word? But Okonomiyaki, so it's like the Pancake type of thing with egg and cabbage and other things thrown in that they make on a griddle in front of you. So they have it in Kyoto and other places, but it's really known there. And in Hiroshima also, they have slightly different versions. That was just fun. So to do all the street food stuff, to have the good food tour, we really loved that. And then on our last, what was supposed to be our last day, we went to Hiroshima and we did a tour. I have a whole itinerary where it has a link to the tour company that I booked. Our guide was really sweet. He was wonderful. I highly recommend that. So we did the whole atomic bomb dome and museum, which was really heavy, obviously.   [00:43:36.130] - Tamara And you have very confused feelings.   [00:43:39.080] - Kim About it. Yeah, being.   [00:43:40.620] - Tamara A member. Our role in that. But then we went to Miyajima Island, which is just a short, like, ferry ride. And it is just beautiful. We were there, it was raining. So there was all these mist and clouds on the mountains. And it just had this magical feel to it. But it was such a... I would love to spend a night there. It wasn't overcrowded, but when the people left, have.   [00:44:07.840] - Kim It more to.   [00:44:08.650] - Tamara Yourself type of thing. But there's a really famous Tori Gate that's in the water that looks high tide like it's floating, or when we were there during low tide, so you can walk out to it. And just a shrine. It's just a really pretty lush... That's one thing that really, I don't know why it surprised me, but Japan, outside the cities, it's so lush. You're like, Oh, right. These are islands.   [00:44:34.300] - Kim Yeah.   [00:44:35.380] - Tamara And that's why I liked about Kyoto too, because it's like a city that's nestled in a valley surrounded by these lush mountains. Not like towering.   [00:44:43.150] - Kim Mountains, but these really lush. And it has a nice little river or stream or something through it too.   [00:44:47.450] - Tamara So that was how we finished. I loved that. And then unfortunately, then we got stuck in a delay on a train coming back because there was a lot of rain. And then we found out our train for the next day to get back to Tokyo in time for our plane was canceled and we were hoping it was going to be all fixed by the morning. But Glenn woke up at five and he said it wasn't. And so then we were up for a couple of hours trying to figure out, what are we going to do? Because we were like, oh, we'll fly up to Tokyo. And by then, all the planes were booked until 3 PM. But we had a 625 flight and we would have had to get our luggage, get to another terminal, recheck it. We're like, that's never going to work. If we get there at 415 or I don't know, it was 435 o'clock or something is when we would have arrived. Never would have worked. So we're like, all right, let's see if we can stay an extra night here and let's book stuff for tomorrow. And let's call Delta and see if they can switch us.   [00:45:40.700] - Tamara So then we had such a long travel day home because we flew from Osaka to Tokyo. And then we had to do Tokyo to LAX instead of Tokyo. We were booked on a Tokyo to Atlanta. So then at least the last little leg is short. Then we're in LAX for four hours.   [00:46:00.110] - Kim Then you had a six hour flight.   [00:46:02.380] - Tamara Well, and then it ended up being delayed. So we came out, we were luckily at the lounge and we actually went on the patio. The Delta Lounge in LAX has a patio, so it's loud but it was really good. It was just nice to get fresh air.   [00:46:16.400] - Kim After all.   [00:46:16.980] - Tamara That time. I actually went and I took a shower. I didn't even have any clothes. We had even checked everything, so I didn't even have any clothes to change into. But I'm like, I'm just taking a shower anyway. Yeah, for sure. And so then we came out of the lounge. We're like, Go to the gate. They're like, Oh, we're waiting on a crew member still. We're going to wait to board you. And then they started boarding us. We're like, Okay, I guess everything's all set. And then we're sitting on the plane and an hour later, they're like, Okay, the pilot's now in the parking lot.   [00:46:42.550] - Kim And we're like.   [00:46:43.320] - Tamara Oh, my gosh. Seriously? It was the pilot. They weren't even on premises when you boarded us. So we were delayed a couple hours. So we ended up... We got home at 315 in the morning. We'd been going for 30 hours, I think, or more, like 33 hours maybe.   [00:47:02.380] - Kim That one did you have? Did you have any of the upgraded seating for any of those legs?   [00:47:06.890] - Tamara Luckily, because we had booked our tickets in premium select, which if you know Delta, there's like Delta 1, which is like the nice pod lay flat thing. Then there's premium select, which has like a footrest that comes out and it reclines, but not like all the way, but it reclines some. Then there's comfort plus, which is basically like a regular seat with a little.   [00:47:26.290] - Kim More leg room. Like me coming.   [00:47:28.590] - Tamara So the reason we went through LAX is that's what we could get for premium economy. Oh, good. Okay. I mean, premium select on that, the longest leg from Tokyo to LAX. Then LAX to Boston doesn't have that. So I think we were in, I think, we were in Comfort Plus. I don't even know at that point. I was uncomfortable, that's for sure. But yeah. And then we flew into Boston, which we had flown out of Providence. So my car is still in Providence. So I had to get a car service to pick us up, bring us back. T he next day I'm like, Hannah, can you drive me down to get my car? Whatever. That's a.   [00:48:03.840] - Kim Whole long story. It worked out. It sounds like you guys had an amazing trip and it was awesome. I know, like I said already and mentioned, Tamara has quite a few blog posts and she'll link them in the show notes, but you can also just go to Wee 3 Travel. I'm sure it's pretty easy to find them, but I know she has all of her itineraries that are if you guys know Tamara, they're very in-depth with a lot of detail. So super helpful if you're thinking of planning a trip. I think it was great. I'm glad you guys had a good time and glad I got to hear about it a little more.   [00:48:31.780] - Tamara Yeah, it was definitely a bucket list trip. I think being there and being together as a family was wonderful. I think we all acknowledged, we don't know when we're going to have that opportunity again. Just know Hannah is going to be very busy the next few years. S he's going to be more than happy to take a trip with us when she can. We might just know when that will be.   [00:48:52.240] - Kim Exactly.   [00:48:52.840] - Tamara I'm glad.   [00:48:53.360] - Kim We got to do it. Yeah, that's awesome. Perfect.   [00:48:56.710] - Tamara What's next?   [00:48:58.290] - Kim I don't even know. You're like, What day is it? What month is it? Exactly. The big thing on my agenda, I'm trying to take the summer off a little bit. We do have a trip up to Canada to visit family coming right up for Canada Day. Happy Canada Day to those of you Canadians that might be listening. Then happy fourth of July to the US Americans that are listening. We are doing that. Then I have a fun trip. You'll be moving Hannah back to school, but I am going to be flying to Kenya and doing a Simara J. W. Marriott stay, which I just got a steal on points for. I'm using points to fly some nice flights as well. That's what's coming up for me. My fall is going to be crazy and booked again, but at least I have. It looks like I'm trying to keep my summer a little more calm. Although that Africa trip, I cannot wait. It's during the Wilder Beast migration. That's a pretty big trip to be. I'm really excited. It's going to be during the Wilder Beast migration, too. So hopefully we'll get some amazing pictures. I got to rent a lens, it reminds me.   [00:50:04.360] - Tamara I was telling somebody about the points deal that you got on that. Everyone just can't even believe it. What a lucky straw.   [00:50:11.400] - Kim That was. Oh, my gosh, it was amazing. I don't know if this would work always, but I'm just a little tip for you guys, if you guys are points people. If you know of any future opening hotels that haven't opened yet, that are opening in the future, just maybe keep an eye on their points rates because that's what happened. This hotel hadn't opened yet. It was opening in April, and in February or something, I saw someone mentioned, Oh, my goodness, they've got nights for 20,000, 20 ish thousand points a night. With Marriott, if you book five nights with points, you only pay for four nights. So it's like book five nights, get one free thing. I don't know how to.   [00:50:49.500] - Tamara Explain it, but you get it. And it's an all inclusive property.   [00:50:51.920] - Kim It's all inclusive property. So all the game drives are included, all the meals are included, everything. I'm paying 93,000 points total for five nights for two people.   [00:51:00.640] - Tamara That's like one night at a nice city hotel.   [00:51:04.320] - Kim Yeah, I know. I was looking at a Fairfield Inn in New York in January, and there were like 65,000 points. So it gives you a little idea there. But anyways, so that's what's up for me. But what about you?   [00:51:14.810] - Tamara As you hear this, I will probably either be in Scotland or Wales, depends on how quickly I get this out. So I leave shortly for a week with a couple of other travel writers, a week in Scotland, a week in Wales, and then I'm going to be home for a couple of weeks. And then I'm actually going to have two weeks in France, which I don't think I've even had a chance to tell you about. But I'm going to do... Glenn and I are going to go to France. We're doing the Taste of Bordeaux River cruise on Amman Waterways. Oh, nice. And then something else that came up. I was invited to do a press trip on European Waterways, which does hotel barge cruises. And I was trying to look at dates in the fall, but they didn't have any availability. But they're like, Well, how about this one on August sixth, which would have been the day I was flying back from France. I was like, Well, I will already be in France. It's to an area that I've been to before. So I was hoping to see something new, but I think it just works out for me to do this back to back, a more traditional river cruise versus a hotel barge cruise just to have these new experiences because I'm not a big ship person, but I'm definitely been wanting to try some of these other types of things.   [00:52:28.570] - Tamara And my friend Michelle is going to come join me for that one because Glenn can't stay for the two weeks.   [00:52:33.830] - Kim Take off that whole time.   [00:52:34.800] - Tamara That's awesome. And then as soon as I get back, Hannah will come back and we have one day at home and then we fly her to Arizona.   [00:52:43.570] - Kim Okie dokey. Well, thank you guys for tuning in again. If you're still with us and still listening, as you can see, we have a few trips on the agenda, so we're not quite sure when we'll make another episode. But as always, we always appreciate you guys tuning in and we'll try to share again soon.   [00:52:58.280] - Tamara Yeah, hopefully, maybe the end of the summer.   [00:53:00.250] - Kim Talk to you later.   [00:53:01.640] - Tamara All right, bye bye.

Today we have an amazing human being and an incredible leader. We have Kim (KC) she'll tell you what that means. Later Kim, who's a retired Air Force colonel, served in the Air Force for more than 24 years as a fighter pilot and a senior military leader, she's flown more than a hundred combat missions protecting troops on the ground both in both Iraq and Afghanistan. As a senior military leader, Kim has led hundreds of airmen at home and abroad in deployed locations around the world. Most recently, Kim served as a director of the Center of Character and Leadership Development at the Air Force Academy. Kim is now Managing Director of Victory Strategies, where she's the leadership coach and keynote speaker. She's also the author of Flying in the Face of Fear, Lessons on Leading with Courage.  Jim: You've been everywhere. You've done everything that the Air Force had to offer. Why did you leave? You don't have to have to, right? So why did you say it was time to hang it up? Kim: I tried to leave three times, so I figured the third time was a charm. But one of my final jobs in the Air Force before I moved to the Air Force Academy, I was a group commander responsible for about a thousand people throughout Central America, South America the Caribbean, a lot of travel, a lot of time away from home. I absolutely loved connecting with my team, getting out and meeting them and walking around, getting to know them. But my husband was also an active duty Air Force officer at the time. He was responsible for the entire base down in Tucson. We also have two boys who happened to be now 10 and 14, but at the time were one and five. And it was a lot. We came to realize that our priorities were changing, the pressures were changing, the stress levels were changing, and we decided it was time to do something different where we were a little bit more in control of our schedules. I attempted to retire then and the Air Force asked if I would stay and become an instructor at the Air Force Academy. Which to me, coming back was home for me. That's where I started my career. And so, coming back there was a great opportunity to help influence the next generation of leaders. Then my husband and I retired at the same time, same ceremony, but it was really a family decision more than anything. And resetting our priorities and our boundaries as well. My passion and my purpose were really initially flying A10, supporting our troops on the ground. That changed over time as I got to lead teams. But then my passion and purpose, changed and I was able to put all my effort and energy and passion into leading the next generation of our airmen, of our leaders of our aviators. And that to me had value, and I was able to find my new way. Jim: We help people get better as leaders. Just for a minute, we must touch on the A10 though, it's too cool an aircraft not to talk about for a minute or two before we dive into the other stuff. So why A10s and what was your view on it? Kim: I realized early on during my days at pilot training, I knew I wanted to be a fighter pilot.I knew from the fifth grade on I was going to be a fighter pilot. I didn't know what airplane I wanted to fly. And then I got to pilot training, and I realized that I really enjoyed low-level flying. It was just fun. It was exciting. It was exciting to fly really close to another airplane. And then I started talking to other pilots about what they liked about their missions. There was something unique. They were so passionate about supporting our troops on the ground, knowing that what they did every day made a difference and helping someone get home safely to their families. That is a mission I can get on board with. And that was my choice to go fly the A10. Jim: For those of you that don't know the A10, it's low-level. It's basically a gigantic cannon with wings, and it's designed to support the troops by clearing the way for them and suppressing other opposing forces. It is one of the most feared aircraft in the arsenal of the United States of America by any opposing force. But you didn't make it home one time.  Kim: It happened on April 7th, 2003. So we're almost at the 20-year anniversary. That's part of the reason that I love the A10, why I'm passionate about the A10 was that it helped get me home safely. And I happened to be over Bagdad providing support to our troops on the ground when my airplane was hit with a surface tear missile. I remember that moment; it was such a loud boom and bright red-orange flash as this fireball envelops my aircraft. And then it just dumped over, and I could see Bagdad below. And I think it was just instinct. I pulled back on my control stick and absolutely nothing happened. It was not responding to any of my control inputs. And I remember thinking, I do not want to eject. I mean, that's the last thing I want to do is eject over Baghdad. And I really fell back on my training and all the preparation that I had done quickly trying to figure out what was going on in my aircraft. And I've got lights flashing everywhere. I've got a master caution panel that's lit up like a Christmas tree. I mean, it was slightly overwhelming, but I had to focus on what was most important. And that is, how do I get this airplane under control? I quickly realized that it has lost all hydraulics. They dumped out when the missile hit the airplane. And so at this point, I know I either eject or I try to get the airplane in our backup emergency system. And thankfully I flipped that switch. The airplane worked exactly as advertised, and I was able to slowly pull the aircraft and, and get away from Baghdad. And that was for me, the first moment I felt like I was going to make it out of there alive. I flew the airplane back for an hour. I was able to get it on the ground which was obviously a huge feeling of relief. And let's say there was a lot of adrenaline in that moment. And the next day, instead of being tasked with a normal mission, I was tasked with combat search and rescue alert, which is another mission we fly, where if an aviator is shot down, then we go and do everything we can to rescue them. Normally when we're on alert, we sleep, we rest, you know, it's, it's downtime because this, this doesn't happen often, but this was April 8th, the alarm sounded, it wasn't a drill. An A10 pilot had been shot down right in Baghdad, right. Where I had escaped my own shootdown. And for me, it was just that those guys were there for me the day before. I was going to do the same for this pilot. We raced out to the Jets, we were start gathering information, and we make an immediate takeoff. I just didn't have time to think about it. It was just, how do we get there as quickly as we can? And thankfully, he was very lucky he got picked up by friendly ground troops. So we only made it about 30 minutes into Iraq. But wow, you know, it was the whole idea that that's what we do for teammates. Unfortunately, that airplane never flew again. I was able to land it, but it was so badly damaged that they assessed that they couldn't repair it in the location that it was. So they decided that maintenance took every piece and part that they could out of it. But they also cut a piece of the back tail section for me that had the tail number on it. And it's been with me for 20 years. It's hung in every Air Force office I've had. But I recently retired and it held a place actually back behind me here. And this Smithsonian is doing a new exhibit on modern military aviation. They asked if I had anything, and I thought, what better way Yeah. To share the story than that tail flash. So I delivered it on Tuesday to the Smithsonian in Washington DC It will be there in a new exhibit. And now the story and the lessons learned, which are most important to me, can be told to the next generation. Jim: So let's move over to leadership. You move from sort of being an individual contributor in the form of a pilot to leading people. And now you've transitioned to teaching people how to lead people. So let's just roll all the way back and if you had to characterize your leadership approach, what would be the elements of your leadership approach, the teachable elements of your leadership approach? Kim: Well, I think part of the reason that I wrote my new book, I was trying to capture all of these experiences and lessons. And what I realized for me is that over the course of my career, I have experienced fear. I have experienced being nervous or stressed about flying airplanes, and about leading teams. And to me, all it came down to was those feelings, those things are normal. They happen. It is all about what you do in the moment. It is about leading with courage. And so for me, this whole idea of courageous leadership and leading with courage and how can you make those hard decisions? How can you make decisions when you don't have perfect information? How can you have the tough conversations that none of us like to have, but are essential and necessary? How do you hold yourself and other people accountable? How do you admit mistakes when it's really uncomfortable to do so? You know, how do you get out and connect with your team? It all comes down to me having the courage to do that, to do the hard things, to make those connections, and to build an environment of trust. So the short answer is, it's all about leading with courage. For lessons from Kim, and to learn what her call signal KC stands for, listen to the complete podcast on leading with courage.

In this episode, we are talking about the emotional toll of OCD.  Kim: Welcome back, everybody. This week is going to include three of some of my most favorite people on this entire planet. We have the amazing Chris Trondsen, Alegra Kastens, and Jessica Serber—all dear friends of mine—on the podcast. This is the first time I've done an episode with more than one guest.  Now, this was actually a presentation that the four of us did at multiple IOCDF conferences. It was a highly requested topic. We were talking a lot about trauma and OCD, shame and OCD, the stigma of OCD, guilt and OCD, and the depression and grief that goes with OCD. After we presented it, it actually got accepted to multiple different conferences, so we all agreed, after doing it multiple times and having such an amazing turnout, that we should re-record the entire conversation and have it on the podcast. I'm so grateful for the three of them. They all actually join me on Super Bowl Sunday—I might add—to record this episode. I am going to really encourage you to drop down into your vulnerable self and listen to what they have to say, and note the validation and acknowledgment that they give throughout the episode. It is a deep breath. That's what this episode is.  Before we get into this show, let me just remind you again that we are recording live the Overcoming Depression course this weekend. On March 11th, March 18th, and March 25th, at 9:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, I will be recording the Overcoming Depression course. I am doing it live this time. If you're interested in coming on live as I record it, you can ask your questions, you can work along with me. There'll be workbooks. I'll be giving you a lot of strategies and a lot of tools to help you overcome depression.  If you're interested, go to CBTSchool.com/depression. We will be meeting again, three dates in March, starting tomorrow, the 11th of March, at 9:00 AM Pacific Time. You will need to sign up ahead of time. But if for any reason you miss one of them, you can watch the replay. The replays will be uploaded. You'll have unlimited on-demand access to any of them. You'll get to hear me answering people's questions. This is the first time I've ever recorded a course live. I really felt it was so important to do it live because I knew people would have questions and I wanted to address them step by step in a manageable, bite-sized way. Again, CBTSchool.com/depression, and I will see you there. Let's get over to this incredible episode.  Again, thank you, Chris Trondsen. Thank you, Alegra Kastens. Thank you, Jessica Serber. It is an honor to call you my friend and my colleague. Enjoy everybody.  Kim: Welcome. This has been long, long. I've been waiting so long to do this and I'm so thrilled. This is my first time having multiple guests at once. I have three amazing guests. I'm going to let them introduce themselves. Jessica, would you like to go first? Jessica: I'm Jessica Serber. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I have a practice specializing in the treatment of OCD and related anxiety and obsessive-compulsive spectrum disorders in Los Angeles. I'm super passionate about working with OCD because my sister has OCD and I saw her get her life back through treatment. So, I have so much hope for everyone in this treatment process. Kim: Fantastic. So happy to have you. Chris? Chris: Hi everyone. My name is Chris Trondsen. I am also a licensed marriage family therapist here in Orange County, California at a private group practice. Besides being a therapist, I also have OCD myself and body dysmorphic disorder, both of which I specialize in treatment. Because of that, I'm passionate about advocacy. I am one of the lead advocates for the International OCD Foundation, as well as on their board and the board of OCD Southern California, as well as some leadership on some of their special interest groups. Kind of full circle for me, have OCD and now treat it. Kim: Amazing. Alegra? Alegra: My name is Alegra Kastens and I am a licensed therapist in the states of California and New York. I'm the founder of the Center for OCD, Anxiety and Eating Disorders. Like Chris, I have lived experience with OCD, anxiety, eating disorders, and basically everything, so I'm very passionate. We got a lot going on up here. I'm really passionate about treating OCD, educating, advocating for the disorder, and that is what propelled me to pursue a career as a therapist and then also to build my online platform, @obsessivelyeverafter on Instagram. GRIEF AND OCD Kim: Amazing. We have done this presentation before, actually, multiple times over the years. I feel like an area that I want to drop into as deeply as we can today to really look at the emotional toll of having and experiencing and recovering from OCD. We're going to have a real conversation style here. But first, we'll follow the format that we've used in the past. Let's first talk about grief and OCD because I think that that seems to be a lot of the reason we all came together to present on this. Alegra, would you talk specifically about some of the losses that result from having OCD? I know this actually was inspired by an Instagram post that you had put out on Instagram, so do you want to share a little bit about what those emotional losses are?  Alegra: For sure. I think that number one, what a lot of people with OCD experience is what feels like a loss of identity. When OCD really attacks your values, attacks your core as a human being, whether it's pedophile obsession, sexual orientation obsessions, harm obsessions, you really start to grieve the person that you once thought you were. Of course, nothing has actually changed about you, but because of OCD, it really feels like it has. In addition to identity, there's lost relationships, there's lost time, lost experiences. For me, I dropped out of my bachelor's degree and I didn't get the four years of undergrad that a lot of people experienced. I mean, living with OCD is one of the most debilitating, difficult things to do. And that means, if you're fighting this battle and trying to survive, you probably are missing out on life and developmental milestones. Kim: Right. Was that the case for you too, Chris? Chris: Yeah. I actually host a free support group for families and one of the persons with OCD was speaking yesterday talking about how having OCD was single-handedly the most negatively impactful experience in his life. He is dealt with a lot of loss. I feel the same way. It's just not something you could shake off and recover from in the sense of just pretending nothing happened. I know for me, the grief was hard. I mean, I had mapped out what I thought my life was going to look like. I think my first stage of grief, because I think it became two stages, my first, like Alegra said, was about the loss. I always wanted to go to college and be around people in my senior year, like make friends and things like that. It's just my life became smaller and smaller. I became housebound. I missed out on normal activities, and six years of my life were pretty much spent alone.  I think what Alegra also alluded to, which was the second layer of grief, was less about the things that I lost, but who I became. I didn't recognize myself in those years with OCD. I think it's hard to explain to somebody else what it's like to literally not live as yourself. I let things happen to me or I did things that I would never do in the mind state that I am in now. I was always such a brave and go-for-it kind of person and confident and I just became a shell of myself. I grieve a lot of the years lost, a lot of the things I always wanted to do, and places I wanted to go. And then I grieve the person I became because it was nothing I ever thought I could become. Kim: Jessica, will you speak also to just the events that people miss out on? I don't know if you want to speak about what you see with your clients or even with your sibling, like just the milestones that they missed and the events they missed. Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. My sister was really struggling the most with her OCD during middle school and high school. Those are such formative years, to begin with. I would say, she was on the fortunate end of the spectrum of being diagnosed relatively early on in her life. I mean, she definitely had symptoms from a very, very young age, but still, getting that diagnosis in middle school is so much before a lot of people get that. I mean, I work with people who aren't diagnosed until their twenties, thirties, and sometimes even later. Different things that most adolescents would go through she didn't.  Speaking to the identity piece that Alegra brought up, a big part of her identity was being a sports fan. She was a diehard Clippers fan, and that's how everyone knew her. It was like her claim to fame. She didn't even want to go to Clippers games. My dad was trying to get tickets to try to get her excited about something to get out of the house. She missed certain events in high school because it was too anxiety-provoking to go and it was more comforting to know she could stay in the safety of the home. Their experiences all throughout the lifespan, I think that can be impacted. Even if you're not missing out on them entirely, a lot of people talk about remembering those experiences as tainted by the memories of OCD, even if they got to go experience them. Kim: Right. For me, as a clinician, I often hear two things. One is the client will say something to the likes of, “I've lost my way. I was going in this direction and I've completely lost the path I was supposed to go on.” I think that is a full grief process. I think we've associated grief with the death of people, but it's not. It's deeper than that and it's about like you're talking about, identity and events and occasions.  The other thing that I hear is—actually, we can go totally off script here in terms of we've talked about this in the past separately—people think that once they're recovered, they will live a really happy life and that they'll feel happy now. Like, “Oh, the relief is here, I've recovered.”  But I think there is a whole stage of grief that follows during recovery and then after recovery. Do you have any thoughts on that, anybody?  Alegra: Well, yeah. I think it reminds me a lot of even my own experience, but my client's experiences of when you recover, there tends to be grief about life before OCD. If I'm being perfectly honest, my life will just never be what it was before OCD, and it's different and wonderful in so many ways that maybe it wouldn't be if I didn't have OCD. But I'm laughing because when you were like, “I'm going to mark my calendar in July because you're probably going to have a relapse,” then I have to deal with it every six months. My brain just goes off for like two weeks. I don't know why it happens. It's just my OCD brain, and there's grief associated with that. I can go for six months and I have some intrusive thoughts, but it doesn't really do anything to me to write back in it for two weeks. That's something I have to deal with and I have to get to that acceptance place in the grieving process. I'm not going to have the brain that I did before OCD when I didn't have a single unwanted sexual thought. That just isn't happening. I think we think that we're going to get to this place after recovery, and it's like game over, I forget everything that happened in the past, but we have to remember that OCD can be traumatizing for people. Trauma is stored in the body. The brain is impacted and I think that we can carry that with us afterwards. Kim: Right. Chris: Yeah. I mean, everything that Alegra was saying—I'll never forget. I always joke, but I thought when treatment was done, rainbows were going to shoot out and butterflies. I was going to jump on my very own unicorn and ride off to the sunset. But it was like a bomb had gone off and I had survived the blast, but everything around me was completely pulverized. I just remember thinking, what do I do now? I remember going on social media to look up some of my friends from high school because my OCD got really, really bad after high school. I just remember everybody was starting to date or marry or travel and move on and I'm like, “Great, I live in my grandma's basement. I don't have anything on my calendar. I'm not dating, I don't have any friends. What do I do?” I was just completely like, “Okay, I don't even know where to begin.” I felt so lost. Anything I did just didn't feel right. Like Alegra said, there was so much aftermath that I had to deal with. I had to deal with the fact that I was lost and confused and I was angry and I had all these emotions. I had these memories of just driving around.  As part of my OCD, I had multiple subtypes—sexual intrusive thoughts, harm thoughts. I remember contamination, stores around me would get dirty, so I'd be driving hours to buy products from non-dirty stores at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, crying outside of a store because they were closed or didn't have the product I need, getting home and then my checking would kick in. You left something at the store, driving back. You just put yourself through all these different things that are just not what you would ever experience.  I see it with my clients. One client sticks in mind who was in his eighties and after treatment, getting better. He wasn't happy and he is like, “I'm so happy, Chris. You helped me put OCD in remission. But I now realize that I never got married because I was scared of change. I never left the house that I hated in the city I didn't really like because I was afraid of what would happen if I moved.” He's like, “I basically lived my OCD according to OCD'S rules and I'm just really depressed about that.” I know we're going to talk about the positive sides and how to heal in the second half, but this is just really what OCD can ravish on our lives. Kim: Right.  Jessica: If I can add one thing too really quickly, something I really think is a common experience too is that once healing happens, even if people do get certain parts of their lives back and feel like they can function again in the ways that they want to, there's always this sense of foreboding joy, that it feels good and I'm happy, but I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop all the time. Or what if I go back to how I was and I lose all my progress? Even when there are those periods of joy and happiness and fulfillment, they might also be accompanied with some anxiety and some what-ifs. Of course, we can work on that and should work on that in treatment too because we want to maximize those periods of joy as much as we can. But that's something that I commonly see, that the anxiety sticks around just in different ways. OCD, SHAME, & GUILT Kim: Yeah, for sure. I see that very commonly too. Let's talk now about OCD, shame, and guilt. I'll actually go straight to you, Jessica, because I remember you speaking about this beautifully. Can you explain the difference between shame and guilt specifically related to how it may show up with OCD?  Jessica: Yeah. I mean, they're definitely related feelings but they are different. I think the simplest way to define the difference is guilt says, “I did something bad,” whereas shame says, “I am bad.” Shame is really an identity-based emotion and we see a lot of shame with any theme of OCD. It can show up in lots of different ways, but definitely with some of the themes that are typically classified as Pure O—the sexual intrusive thoughts or unwanted harm thoughts, scrupulosity, blasphemous thoughts. There can be a lot of shame around a person really identifying with their thoughts and what it means about them. Attaching that, meaning about what it means about them. And then of course, there can also be guilt, which I think feels terrible as well, but it's like a shame light where it's like, “I did something wrong by having this thought,” or just guilt for maybe something that they've thought or a compulsion that they've done because of their OCD.  Kim: Yeah. I've actually also experienced a lot of clients saying they feel guilty because of the impact their OCD has had on their loved ones too. They're suffering to the biggest degree, but they're also carrying the guilt of like, “I've caused suffering to my family,” or “I'm a financial burden to my parents with the therapy and the psychiatrist.” I think that there's that secondary guilt that shows up for a lot of people as well, which we can clump in as an outcome or a consequence or an experience of having OCD. Chris: Yeah. I mean, right before you said this, Kim, I was thinking for me personally, that was literally what I was going to say. I have a younger sister. She's a couple of years younger than me and I just put her through hell. She was one of the first people that just felt the OCD's wrath because I was so stressed out. She and I shared a lot of the same spaces in the home, so we'd have a lot of fights. Also, when I was younger, because she looks nothing like me—she actually looks more like you, Kim, blonde hair, blue eyes—people didn't know we were related. People would always say things like, “Oh, is that your girlfriend?” So then I'd have a lot of ancestral intrusive thoughts that caused a lot of harm to me, so I'd get mad at her. Because I was young, I didn't know better. And then just the hell I put my mom through.  I always think about just like, wow, once again, that's not who Chris is. I would jump in front of eight bullets for both my mom and my sister. I remember one time I needed something because I felt dirty, and my mom hit our spending money so that if there was an emergency. My sister knew where it was and she wouldn't give it to me. I remember taking a lighter and lighting it and being like, “I'll burn your hair if you don't give me the money,” because I was so desperate to buy it because that's how intense the OCD was. I remember she and I talking about that and it just feels like a different human. Once again, it's more than just guilt. It's shame of who I had become because of it and not even recognizing the boy I was now compared to the man I am now, way than man now. OCD AND ANGER Kim: One thing we haven't talked a lot about, but Chris, you just spoke to it, and I've actually been thinking about this a lot. Let's talk about OCD and anger because I think that is another emotional toll of OCD. A lot of clients I've had—even just recently, I've been thinking about this a lot—sometimes instead of doing compulsions, they have an anger outburst or maybe as well as compulsions. Does anyone want to speak to those waves of frustration and anger that go around these thoughts that we have or intrusive whatever obsessions in any way, but in addition, the compulsions you feel you have to do when you have OCD? Alegra: I feel like sometimes there can be maybe a deeper, more painful emotion that's underneath that anger, which can be shame or it can be guilt, but it feels like anger is maybe easier to express. But also, there just is inherent anger that comes up with having to live with this. I remember one time in my own personal therapy, my therapist was trying to relate and she pulled out this picture that she had like an, I don't know, eight-year-old client with OCD and was like, “She taps herself a lot.” I screamed at her at that moment. I was like, “Put that fucking picture away, and don't ever show that to me again. I do not want to be compared to an eight-year-old who taps himself, like I will tap myself all day fucking long, so long as I don't have these sexually unwanted thoughts about children.” I was so angry at that moment because it just felt like what I was dealing with was so much more taboo and shameful. I was angry a lot of the time. I don't think we can answer the question of, why? Why did I have to experience this? Why did someone else not have to experience this? And that anger is valid.  The other thing that I want to add is that anger does not necessarily mean that we are now going to act on our obsessions because I think clients get very afraid of that. I remember one time I was so fucking pissed at my coworker. He was obnoxious when I worked in PR, and I was so mad at him, I had to walk outside and regulate. And then instantly, of course, my brain went, “You want his kid to die?” or whatever it was. I felt like, oh my God, I must really want this to happen because I'm mad at him. In terms of anger, we can both feel angry and not align with unwanted thoughts that arise. CAN OCD CAUSE ANGER ISSUES?  Kim: Right. OCD can attack the emotions that you experience, like turn it back on you. It's funny, I was doing a little bit of research for this and I typed in ‘OCD in anger.' I was looking to see what was out there. What was so fascinating to me is, you know when you type something in on Google, it shows all of the other things that are commonly typed in. At the very top was ‘Can OCD cause anger issues?' I was like, that is so interesting, that obviously, loved ones or people with OCD are searching for this because it's so normal, I think, to have a large degree of just absolute rage over what you've been through, how much you've suffered, just the torment and what's been lost, as we've already talked about. I just thought that was really fascinating to see, that that's obviously something that people are struggling with.  Chris: When you think about it, when we're struggling with OCD, the parts of our brain that are trying to protect us are on fire or on high alert. If you always think about that, I always think of a feral dog. If you're trying to get him help, then he starts to bite. That's how I honestly felt. My anger was mostly before I was diagnosed, and once again, like I said, breaking things at home, screaming, yelling at my family, intimidating them, and stuff. I know that once again, that wasn't who I am at the course. When I finally got a diagnosis, I know for me, the anger dissipated. I was still angry, but the outbursts and the rage, and I think the saddest thing I hear from a lot of my clients is they tell me, I think people think I'm this selfish and spoiled and bratty and angry person. I'm not. I just cannot get a break.  I always remind parents that as your loved one or spouses, et cetera—as your loved one gets better, that anger will subside. It won't vanish, it won't disappear, it may change into different emotions, like Alegra was saying, to guilt and to shame and loss of identity. But that rage a lot of times is because we just don't know what to do and we feel attacked constantly with OCD.  Kim: Yeah. Jessica: I also want to validate the piece that anger is a really natural and normal stage of grief. I like that you're differentiating, Chris, between the rage that a lot of people experience in it versus maybe just a different type of anger that can show up after when you recognize how—I think, Alegra, you brought up—we can't answer the question of, why did this happen to me? Or “I missed out on all these times or years of my life that I can't get back.” Anger is not a problem. It's not an issue when it shows up like that. It's actually a very healthy natural part of grief. We want to obviously process it in ways that really honor that feeling and tend to that feeling in a helpful way. I just wanted to point out that part as well. DO YOU CONSIDER HAVING OCD A TRAUMATIC EVENT?    Kim: Yeah, very, very helpful. This is for everybody and you can chime in, but I wanted to just get a poll even. Alegra spoke on this a little bit already. Do you consider having OCD a traumatic event? Alegra: A hundred thousand percent. I'm obviously not going to trauma dump on all of you all, but boy, would I love to. I have had quite a few of what's classified as big T traumas, which I even hate the differentiation of big T, sexual assault, abuse, whatever. I have had quite a bit of big T traumas and I have to say that OCD has been the most traumatizing thing I have been through and I think we'll ever go through. It bothers me how much I think gatekeeping can happen in our community. Like, no, it's only trauma if you've been assaulted, it's only trauma if X, Y, and Z. I have a lot of big T trauma and I'm here to say that OCD hands down, like I would go through all of that big T trauma 15 times over to not have OCD, 100%. I think Chris can just add cherries to the cake, whatever that phrase is. Chris: Yeah. This is actually how the title, the Emotional Toll of OCD, came about. We had really talked about this. I was really inspired mainly by Alegra talking about the trauma of OCD and I was like, finally, someone put the right word because I always felt that other words didn't really speak to my personal experience and the experience I see with clients. We had submitted it for a talk and it got denied. I remember they liked it so much that they literally had a meeting with you and I, Kim, and we're like, “We actually really love this. We just got to figure out a way to change it.” Like Alegra was saying, a lot of the people that were part of a trauma special interest group just said, “Look, we can't be using the word ‘trauma' like this.” But we had a good talk about it. It's like, I do believe it's trauma. I always feel weird talking about him because sometimes he listens to my stuff, but still, I'll say it anyways. But my dad will hopefully be the first to admit it. But there were a lot of physical altercations between he and I that were inappropriate—physical abuse, emotional abuse, yelling, screaming. Like Alegra said, I would relive that tenfold than go through the depths of my OCD again where I attempted suicide, where I isolated, where I didn't even recognize myself.  If ‘trauma' isn't the correct word, we only watered it down to emotional toll just to make DSM-5 folks happy. But if ‘trauma' isn't the word, I don't know what is, because like I said, trauma was okay to describe the pain I went through childhood, but in my personal experience, it failed in comparison to the trauma that I went through with OCD.  Alegra: I also want to add something. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm thinking about the DSM definition, I think it's defining post-traumatic stress disorder. I don't think it's describing trauma specifically. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's criteria for PTSD. I will be the first to say and none of you have to agree. I think that you can have PTSD from living with OCD. DSM-wise diagnostically, you can't. But I think when people are like, “Well, that's not the definition of trauma in the DSM,” no, they're defining PTSD. It's like, yeah, some people have anxiety and don't have an anxiety disorder. You can experience trauma and not have full-blown PTSD. That's my understanding of it. Kim: Yeah. It's funny because I don't have OCD, so I am an observer to it. What I think is really interesting is I can be an observer to someone who's been through, like you've talked about, a physical assault or a sexual assault and so forth, and they may report I'm having memories of the event and wake up with the physiology of my heart beating and thoughts racing. But then I'll have clients with OCD who will have these vivid memories of having to wash their hands and the absolute chaos of, “I can't touch this. Oh my God, please don't splash the water on me,” Memories of that and nightmares of that and those physiological experiences. They're remembering the events that they felt so controlled and so stuck in. That's where for me, I was, with Chris, really advocating for. These moments imprint our brain right in such a deep way. Alegra: Yeah. I'm reading this book, not to tell everyone to buy this book, but it's by Dr. Bruce Perry and he does a bunch of research on trauma and the brain. Basically, the way that he describes it is like when we experience something and it gets associated. Let's say, for instance, there are stores that I could go to and I could still feel that very visceral feeling that I did when I was suffering. Part of that is how trauma is stored in the brain. Even if you logically know I'm not in that experience now, I'm not in the war zone or I'm not in the depths of my OCD suffering, just the store, let's say, being processed through the lower part of your brain can bring up all of those associations. So, it does do something to the brain. Kim: Right.  Chris: Absolutely. I was part of a documentary and it was the first time I went back to the home that I had attempted suicide, and the police got called the hospital and all that. It was a bad choice. They didn't push me into it. It was my idea because I haven't gone back there, had no clue how I'd react and I broke down. I mean, broke down in a dry heaving way that I never knew I could and we had to stop filming and we left. Where I was at my worst of OCD was there and also at my grandma's house because that's where I moved right after the suicide attempt. I'd have people around me, and still going down to the basement area that I lived in. It is very hard. I rarely do it. So, I have a reaction. To me, it was like, if that isn't once again trauma, I don't know what is. Alegra: It is.  Chris: Exactly. I'll never forget there was a woman that was part of a support group I ran. She was in her seventies and she had gone through cancer twice. I remember her telling the group that she's like, “I'll go through cancer a third time before I'll ever go back to my worst of OCD.” Obviously, we're not downplaying these other experiences—PTSD, trauma, cancer, horrible things, abuse, et cetera. What we're saying is that OCD takes a lasting imprint and it's something that I have not been able to shake. I've done so much advocacy, so much therapy, so much as a therapist and I don't still struggle, but the havoc it has on my life, that's something I think is going to be imprinted for life. Alegra: Forever. Jessica: Also, part of the definition of trauma is having a life-threatening experience. What you're speaking to, Chris, you had a suicide attempt during that time. Suicidality is common with OCD. Suicidal ideation, it's changing your life. I think Alegra, you said, “I'll never have the life or the brain that I had before OCD.” These things that maybe it's not, well, some of them are actually about real confrontation with death, but these real life-changing, life-altering experiences that potentially also drive some people to have thoughts or feelings about wanting to not be alive anymore. I just think that element is there. Alegra: That's so brilliant, Jessica, because that is so true. If we're thinking about it being life-threatening and life-altering, it was life-threatening for me. I got to the point where I was like, “If something doesn't change, I will kill myself. I will.” That is life-threatening to a person. I would be driving on the freeway like, “Do I just turn the car? Do I just turn it now? Because I was so just fucking done with what was happening in my brain.” Kim: It feels crisis. Alegra: Yeah. Kim: It's like you're experiencing a crisis in that moment, and I think that that's absolutely valid. Alegra: It's an extended crisis. For me, it was a crisis of three to four years. I never had a break. Not when I was sleeping. I mean, never. Chris: I was just going to add that I hear in session almost daily, people are like, “If I just don't wake up tomorrow, I'm fine. I'd never do anything, but if I just don't wake up tomorrow, I'm fine.” We know this is the norm. The DSM talks about 50% of individuals with OCD have suicidal ideation, 25% will attempt. This is what people are going through as they enter treatment or before treatment. They just feel like, “If I just don't wake up or if something were to happen to me, I'd actually be at peace with it.” It's a really alarming number. THE EMOTIONAL TOLL OF OCD TREATMENT Kim: Right. Let's move. I love everything that you guys are saying and I feel like we've really acknowledged the emotional toll really, the many ways that it universally impacts a person emotionally and in all areas of their lives. I'm wondering if you guys could each, one at a time or bounce it off each other, share what you believe are some core ways in which we can manage these emotional tolls, bruises left, or scars left from having OCD? Jessica, do you want to go first?  Jessica: Sure. I guess the first thing that comes to mind is—I'll speak from the therapist perspective—if you're a therapist specializing in treating OCD, make sure you leave room to talk about these feelings that we're bringing up. Of course, doing ERP and doing all of the things to treat OCD is paramount and we want to do that first and foremost if possible. But if you're not also leaving room for your client to process this grief, process through and challenge their shame, just hold space for the anger and maybe talk about it. Let your client have that anger experience in a safe space. We're missing a huge, huge part of that person's healing if we're leaving that out. Maybe I'll piggyback on what you two say, but that's just the baseline that I wanted to put out there. Chris: I could go next. I would say the first thing is what Jess said. We have to treat the whole person. I think it's great when a client's Y-BOCS score has gone down and symptomology is not a daily impact. However, all the things that we talked about, we aren't unicorns. This is what many of our clients are going through and there has to be space for the therapist to validate, to address, and to help heal. I would say the biggest thing that I believe moves you past where we've been talking about is re-identity formation. We just don't recognize until you get better how nearly every single decision we make is based off of our OCD fears, that some way or another, what we listen to, how we speak, what direction we drive, what we buy. I mean, everything we do is, will the OCD be okay with this? Will this harm me, et cetera?  One of the things I do with all my clients before I complete treatment is I start to help them figure out who they are. I say, “Let's knock everything we know. What are the parts of yourself that you organically feel are you and you love? Let's flourish those. Let's water those. Let's help those grow. What are some other things that you would be doing if OCD hadn't completely ransacked your life? Do you spend time with family? Are you somebody that wants to give back to communities? What things do you like to do when you're alone?” I help clients and it was something I did after my own treatment, like re-fall in love and be impressed with yourself and start to rebuild. I tell clients, one of the things that helped me flip it and I try to do it with them is instead of looking at it like, “This is hard, this is tough,” look at it as an opportunity. We get to take that pause, reconnect with ourselves and start to go in a direction that is absolutely going to move as far away from the OCD selves as possible, but also to go to the direction of who we are. Obviously, for me, becoming a therapist and advocate is what's helped me heal, and not everybody will go that route. But when they're five months, six months, a year after the hard part of their treatment and they're doing the things they always picture they could do and reconnecting with the people that they love, I start to see their light grow again and the OCD starts to fade. That's really the goal.  Alegra: I think something that I'll add—again, I don't want to be the controversial one, but maybe I will be—is there might be, yes. Can I get canceled after this in the community? There might be some kind of trauma work that somebody might need to do after OCD treatment, after symptoms are managed, and this is where we need to find nuance. Obviously, treatments like EMDR are not evidence-based for OCD, but if somebody has been really traumatized by OCD, maybe there is some kind of somatic experience, some kind of EMDR, or some kind of whatever it might be to really help work on that emotional impact that might still be affecting the person. It's important of course to find a therapist who understands OCD, who isn't reassuring you and you're falling back into your symptoms. But I have had clients successfully go through trauma therapy for the emotional impact OCD had and said it was tremendously helpful. That might be something to consider as well. If you do all the behavioral work and you still feel like, “I am really in the trenches emotionally,” we might need to add something else in. Chris: I actually don't think that's controversial, Alegra. I think that what you're speaking-- Alegra: I don't either, but a lot of clinicians do. Jessica: No, I agree. I think a lot of people will, and it's been a part of my recovery. I don't talk about a lot for that very reason. But after I was done with treatment, I didn't feel like I needed an OCD therapist anymore. I was doing extremely well, but all the emotions we'd been talking about, I was still experiencing. I found a clinician nearby because I was going on a four-hour round trip for treatment. I just couldn't go back to my therapist because of that. She actually worked with a lot of people that lost their lifestyle because of gambling. I went to her and I said, “What really spoke to me is how you help people rebuild their lives. I don't need to talk about OCD. If I need to, I'll go back to my old therapist. I need to figure out how to rebuild my life.” That's really what she did. She helped me work through a lot of the trauma with my dad and even got my dad to come to a session and work through that. We worked through living in the closet for my sexual orientation for so long and how hard coming out was because I came out while I was in the midst of OCD. It was a pretty horrible coming out experience. She helped me really work through that, work through the time lost and feeling behind my peers and I felt like a whole person leaving. I decided, as a clinician, I have to do that for my clients. I can't let my clients leave like I felt I left. It was no foul to my therapist. We just didn't talk about these other things.  Now what I'll say as a clinician is, if I'm working with a client and I feel like I could be the one to help them, I'll keep them with me. I also know my limitations. Like Alegra was saying, if they had the OCD went down so other traumas came to surface and they've dealt with molestation or something like that, I know my limitations, but what I will make sure to do is refer to a clinician that I think can help them because once again, I think treating the whole client is so important.  Kim: Yeah. There's two things I'll bring up in addition because I agree with everything you're saying. I don't think it's controversial. In fact, I often will say to my staff who see a lot of my clients, we want to either be doing, like Jessica said, some of the processing as we go or really offer after ERPs. “Do you need more support in this process of going back to the person you want?” That's a second level of treatment that I think can be super beautiful. As you're going too with exposures and so forth, you're asking yourself those questions like, what do I value? Take away OCD, what would I do? A lot of times, people are like, “I have no idea. I have really no idea,” like Chris then. I think that you can do it during treatment. You can also do it after, whichever feels best for you and your clinician.  The other thing that I find shows up for my patients the most is they'll bring up the shame and the guilt, or they'll bring up the anger, they'll bring up the grief. And then there's this heavy layer of some judgment for having it. There's this heavy layer as if they don't deserve to have these emotions. Probably, the thing I say the most is, “It makes complete sense that you feel that way.” I think that we have to remember that. That every emotion that is so strong and almost dysregulating, it makes complete sense that you feel that way given what you're going through.  I would just additionally say, be super compassionate and non-judgmental for these emotional waves that you're going to have to ride. I mean, think about the grief. This is the other thing. We don't go in and then process the grief and then often you're running. It's a wave. It's a process. It's a journey. It's going to keep coming and going. I think it's this readjustment on our thinking, like this is the life goal, the long-term practice now. It's not a one-and-done. Do you guys have thoughts? Jessica: I think as clinicians, validating that these are absolutely normal experiences and you deserve to be feeling this way is important because I think that sometimes, I don't think there's ill intent, but clinicians might gaslight their clients in a certain way by saying, “This isn't traumatic. This is not trauma. You can feel sad, but it is absolutely not a trauma,” and not validating that for a person can be really painful. I think as clinicians, we need to be open to the emotional impact that OCD has on a person and validate that so we're not sitting there saying, “Sorry, you can't use that word. This is not your experience. You can be sad, you can be whatever, but it's not trauma,” because I have seen that happen. Kim: Or a clinician saying, “It's not grief because no one died.” Jessica: Yeah. It was just hard. That was it. Get over it.  Kim: Or look at how far you've come. Even that, it's a positive thing to say. It's a positive thing to say, but I think what we're all saying is, very much, it makes complete sense. What were you going to say, Jessica? Sorry. Jessica: No. I just wanted to point out this one nuance that I see come up and that I think is important to catch, which is that sometimes there can be grief or shame or all these emotions that we're talking about, but sometimes those emotions can also become the compulsion themselves at times. Shala Nicely has a really, really good article about this, about how depression itself can become a compulsion, or I've seen clients engage in what I refer to as stewing in guilt or excessive guilt or self-punishment. What we want to differentiate is, punishing yourself by stewing in guilt is actually providing some form of covert reassurance about the obsessions. Sometimes we need to process the true emotional experiences that are happening as a result of OCD, but we also want to make sure that we're on the lookout for self-punishment compulsions and things like that that can mask, or I don't know. That can come out in response to those feelings, but ultimately are feeding the OCD still. I just wanted to point out that nuance, that if someone feels like, “I'm doing all this processing of my feelings with my therapist, but I'm not getting any better or I'm actually feeling worse,” we want to look at, is there a sneaky compulsion happening there?  Chris: I was just going to quickly add two things. One, I think what you were saying, Kim, with your clients, I see all the time. “I shouldn't feel this way. It's not okay for me to feel this way. There's people out there that are going through bigger traumas.” For some reason, I feel society gives a hierarchy of like, “Oh, if you're going through this you can grieve for this much, but we're going to grief police you if you're going through this. That's much down here.” So, my clients will feel guilty. My brother lost an arm when he was younger. How dare I feel bad about the time lost with OCD? I always tell my clients, there's no such thing as grief police and your experience is yours. We don't need to compare or contrast it to others because society already does that. And then second, I'm going to throw in a little plug for Kim. I feel as a clinician, it's my responsibility to keep absorbing things that I think will help my client. Your book that really talks about the self-compassion component, I read that from cover to cover. One thing that I've used when we're dealing with this with my clients is saying like, “We got to change our internal voice. Your internal voice has been one that's been frightened, small, scared, angry for so long. We got to change that internal voice to one that roots for you that has you get up each day and tackle the day.” If a client is sitting there saying that they shouldn't feel okay, I always ask them, “What kind of voice would you use to your younger brother or sister that you feel protective about? Would you knock down their experience? No, you would hold that space for them. What if we did that for you? It may feel odd, but this is something that I feel you need at this time.” Typically, when they start using a more self-compassionate tone, they start to feel like they're healing. So, that's something that we got to make sure they're doing as well. OCD AND DEPRESSION Kim: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. One thing we haven't touched on, and I will just quickly bring it up too, is I think secondary depression is a normal part of having OCD as well and is a part of the emotional toll. Sometimes either that depression can impact your ability to recover, or once you've gone through treatment, you're still not hopeful about the future. You're still feeling hopeless and helpless about the way the world is and the way that your brain functions in certain stresses. I would say if that is the case, also don't be afraid to bring up to your clinician. Like, I actually am concerned. I might have some depression if they haven't picked up on it. Because as clinicians, we know there's an emotional toll, we forget to assess for depression. That's something else just to consider. Chris: Yeah. I'm a stats nerd and I think it's 68% of the DSM, people with OCD have a depressive disorder, and 76% have an anxiety disorder. I always wonder, how can you have OCD and not be depressed? I was extremely depressed when my OCD was going on, and I think it's because of how it ravishes your life and takes you away from the things you care about the most. And then the things that would make you happy to get you out of the depression, obviously, you can't do. I will say the nice thing is, typically, what I see, whether it's through medication or not medication, but the treatment itself—what I see is that as people get better from OCD, if their depression did come from having OCD, a lot of it lifts, especially as they start to re-engage in life. Kim: All right. I'm looking at the time and I am loving everything you say. I'd love if you could each go around, tell us where we can hear more about you. If there's any final word that you want to say, I'm more than happy for you to take the mic. Jessica? Jessica: I'll start. I think I said in the introduction, but I have a private practice in Los Angeles. It's called Mindful CBT California. My website is MindfulCBTCalifornia.com. You can find some blogs and a contact page for me there. I hope to see a lot of you at the IOCDF conference this year. I love attending those, so I'll be there. That's it for me. Kim: Chris? Alegra: Like I said, if you're in the Southern California area, make sure to check out OCD SoCal. I am on the board of that or the International OCD Foundation, I'm on the board. I'm always connected at events through that. You can find me on my social media, which is just my name, @ChrisTrondsen. I currently work at the Gateway Institute in Orange County, California, so you can definitely find me there. My email is just my name, ChrisTrondsen@GatewayOCD.com. I would say the final thought that I want to leave, first and foremost, is just what I hope you got from this podcast is that all those other mixed bags of emotions that you're experiencing are normal. We just want to normalize that for you, and make sure as you're going through your recovery journey that you and your clinician address them, because I feel much more like a whole person because I was able to address those. You're not alone. Hopefully, you got from that you're not alone. Kim: Alegra? Alegra: You can find me @obsessivelyeverafter on Instagram. I also have a website, AlegraKastens.com, where you can find my contact info. You can find my Ask Alegra workshop series that I do once a month. I also just started a podcast called Sad Girls Who Read, so you can find me there with my co-host Erin Kommor, who also has OCD. My final words would probably be, I know we talked about a lot of really dark stuff today and how painful OCD can be, but it absolutely can get so much better. I would say that I am 95% better than I was when I first started suffering. It's brilliant and it's beautiful, and I never thought that would be the case. Yes, you'll hear from me in July, Kim, but other than that, I feel like I do have a very-- Kim's like, “Oh, will I?” Kim: I've scheduled you in. Alegra: She's like, “I have seven months to prep for this.” But other than that, I would say that my life is like, I never would've dreamed that I could be here, so it is really possible. Kim: Yeah. Chris: Amen. Of that. Kim: Yeah. Thank you all so much. This has been so meaningful for me to have you guys on. I'm really grateful for your time and your advocacy. Thank you. Chris: Thanks, Kim. Thanks for having us.  Alegra: Thanks, Kim.

INTRODUCTION:BIOWriter, Speaker, World Changer Kim Sorrelle is a writer, speaker, entrepreneur, the director of a humanitarian organization, activist, mother, grandmother, lover of all people, and black licorice.​Kim's entrepreneurial journey included commercial real estate, a golf course, event facilities, catering, a grocery store, and more. Besides building businesses into multi-million dollar companies, Kim is proud to have weathered the pandemic storm in the food industry, pivoting, keeping staff employed, and seeing the company's sales grow beyond pre-pandemic numbers.​Kim is the director of Rays of Hope International, a partnering organization working with people in their own country who have a passion, a vision, a mission to help people in their own country and just need someone to walk alongside. Through business plans, fundraising, sustainability planning, supplies, building, Working in countries like Haiti, Dominican Republic, and Burkina Faso, Rays of Hope has enjoyed relationships with hundreds of organizations that are working hard to help the underserved and vulnerable population.​As an athlete and sports fan, Kim coached basketball for 25 years and high school varsity volleyball for 17 and her team was ranked in the top ten in the state for 16 of the 17 years.​Kim met tall, dark, and handsome Steve Sorrelle, the man of her dreams, and proposed ten days later. Two years later, their only daughter, Amanda, arrived full of spunk and sweetness. Three brothers, Paul, Luke, and Noah, quickly followed, A few years later their Dominican son, Cristian, joined the family.  Now all grown with families of their own, Kim is happy to report that they are all gainfully employed, contributing positively to the world, and have the most incredible children who call her "Uma." (Like Uma Thurman, not Oma like a German grandma, the name given to her by her oldest granddaughter and it stuck.)​In 2009, while battling breast cancer, Kim's love, Steve, received a pancreatic cancer diagnosis. After six great weeks together, Kim held Steve as he took his last breath. Her first book, Cry Until You Laugh, chronicles that journey through laughter and tears and laughter again.​The back to back cancer diagnosis led her youngest son, Noah, to change trigectories and earn a PHD as a cancer researcher. With a focus on breast cancer, Noah has made significant discoveries that have already helped with other research and continue to move the needle on the survivor rate.​Kim's second book, Love Is, came from a desire to know the true meaning of love.  Love Is,chronicles her year long quest to discover the true meaning of love, a sometimes funny, sometimes scary, always enlightening journey that led to life-changing discoveries found mostly on the streets of Haiti.​Today, Kim lives in her hometown of Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA, a regular radio, television, and podcast guest, Kim speaks to audiences all over the world. Inspirational and educational, Kim entertains CEO's, industry leaders, company staff members, educators, parents, women's groups, and more. With first hand experience, Kim also speaks for The American Cancer Society and Susan G. Koman. ​A coach is always a coach and Kim is no different. Working with individuals and teams, Kim helps people succeed not only in business and family life but in every aspect of life, leading to greater fulfillment, happiness, while teaching the secrets to working less and playing more.​When she is not writing, broadcasting, coaching, speaking, or serving, Kim enjoys her life-long and newer friendships, hanging out with the grandkids, reading, playing tennis and pickleball, painting (she's no Bob Ross!), traveling, meeting new people, and an occasional stick of black licorice.   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      An Inside Look At Publishing /Authorship ·      Preachers Regurgitate Sermons Into Books·      Start Your Book With An Outline·      Formatting Suggestions ·      Cover Design: https://www.99Designs.com/·      Ghostwriter Information·      Copywriting ·      “Show, Not Tell”·      ISBN'S: https://www.Bowker.com + https://bit.ly/3zykLe1·      Publishing Option (D2D): https://www.Draft2Digital.com·      Publishing Option (Amazon/KDP): https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/ CONNECT WITH KIM: Website & Books: https://www.KimSorrelle.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3vRFWXfFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/loveisbykim/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimsorrelle/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/Kim_SorrelleLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3tEzK24Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/ksorrelle/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@livelove_outloud  KIM'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      All You Need Is Love (The Beatles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xMfIp-irg CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBibleo  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.netVETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      Black Licorice (consult your doctor): https://www.webmd.com/diet/black-licorice-health-benefits#1 ·      VooDoo Explained: https://bit.ly/36SBA83·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello? Hello? Hello? Are you beautiful souls?My sister Kim Sorell is back with me for the third time.And I'm so excited to have her with me and Kim and I thought it would be so great to give back to everyone in the way of sharing our knowledge and experiences from writing books and podcasting so in this episode, we're gonna take a look inside the world of publishing and authorship. And we're gonna give you some useful tips on [00:01:00] the book writing process, from the outline to publishing, Listing lots of great websites for you to use and so much more information. And of course you can always reach out to both of us as well.We love you. God, bless you. Enjoy the show. Hello, my dear sister. And welcome back for the third damn time to the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. Hello? Hello. Hello, Kim.Kim: Hello. I'm so happy to be back for the third time to the greatest podcast. I love it.De'Vannon: Thank you so much. Now, Kim sore is the author of two books. One is called love is, and the other one is cry until you laugh. sometimes you just gotta get a good laugh in and in the Hebrew Bible, it says that a laughter, you know, it's good for the soul. [00:02:00] You know, it's a medicine that you can administer to yourself.Energetically speaking. It raises your vibration. Although I don't really need to add anything to what Jesus said. I'm just saying that to help people understand that a little laughter goes a long way.Kim: Mm-hmm yes, for sure. For sure. Yeah. It's. It is healing for the soul, for sure. For sure.De'Vannon: Now Kim's an entrepreneur. She speaks, she has a deep love in our heart for the people of Haiti. And she also has a deep love in our heart for black liquorish. Now, in our previous episodes, we've talked about the health benefits of black liquorish, what it was like when she lived and worked in Haiti with her.Non-profit we talked about voodoo and witchcraft and cast and spells and all of that stuff. And she, we also talked about how this woman was able to survive cancer. And I think your nonprofit is raised of hope international.Kim: It is. Yes.De'Vannon: Yeah. And so all of that [00:03:00] information will again be in the showy notes as it always is.And so this is a very diverse and dynamic woman here, and I'm just thrilled to have, hadn't met her in my lifetime.Kim: Well right back at you. I feel like we are kindred spirits. We are connected forever and I, I love it. I love it.De'Vannon: Endeavor you stay in my heart and oh, really love you.Kim: And that's right.De'Vannon: So today's conversation will be like, kind of off the cuff. You know, Kim's written two books, I'm just getting wrapped up with my first one. And I have to say the process is a bitch. It's it is bittersweet. And I find that it is a masochistic thing to want to be an author. It sounds glamorous and all glorious.And we do give people who have successfully written books, a lot of prompts in society. Now I know why [00:04:00] this is some painful shit to put yourself through, but if you've really got something worth saying that, I also want to say it's worth doing so you wanna be talking about book publishing and just kind of giving an inside look to what it means to be an author.So what you got to say about a girl.Kim: Yeah, you are so spot on. You know, I think there are so many people that talk about writing a book. Everybody has a story to tell, you know, everybody's got a book in 'em I think, but getting it on paper is a painful process. It is not all sugars and cream and black licorice. It is you know, some, I don't know, whatever trash and garbage and craziness that goes into actually getting it down for sure.De'Vannon: Right. And then I think the main thing to do is to be praying about whether or not you should just like with podcasting, a lot of people get [00:05:00] into it because it looks glamorous and it looks easy, but you have to, you have to be called to that thing. Excuse me. You've got to You gotta, that's gotta really, really be like a part of your purpose in life.You can't do it for money cuz you don't know how long it's gonna take the money to follow this sort of thing. You can't do it for, you have to do it because it, you know, you wanna help people, you know, for something other than yourself. And so I think that that's, I think that that's the beginning of it is to do some real soul searching and some meditation and to find out the why, you know, why are you doing this?Why are you here? And that's what you're gonna be able to pull on in those long nights when you're uplifting at the manuscript for the 15th time and you're still finding fucking mistakes, you know, you wanna pull your hair out, so you're gonna remember why you're doing it and that's, what's going to motivate you to finally get it fucking done.Kim: Yeah. You know, I think that's so true. And I think that you hit it right on [00:06:00] about motivation, because if you're in it for the money you are in it for the wrong reason. There are very few authors that actually make any money on a book of all the books that are written. There are only so many Stephen Kings out there.There are only so many John Grham, you know, people that are making good money with books. It is so much more work than you realize nobody is gonna publicize it for you. You've gotta be your own publicist. You've gotta be your own feet. You, you have to go after it. It doesn't matter if you've got a traditional publisher or you're self-publishing, it is on you.Every, everything is on you and the average. That sells, I think less than a hundred copies. And so nobody makes money on a hundred copies. So it's you, you gotta know that you can't be in it for the money. It's gotta be a different motivation.De'Vannon: So, but if someone's done this soul searching and this praying and everything like [00:07:00] that, and they decided they wanna write it, I'm gonna add to this timing too. Not just if you should, but when you should, years and years ago, maybe like 10, 15 years ago, when I first started thinking, you're not sure what, like to write a book.I don't think my motives were right. You know, at this time I was, you know, attending churches, you know, like, you know, churches and shit. And you know, every, every damn, every damn pastor is a, is a, is a, is an author, you know? And so I was around a whole lot of. Preachers writing books and they made it look really good.And every time they write, wrote a book, it's a huge thing. And so that affected me. And I was like, I wanna be like that. I don't, I wanna be one of those glamorous people who writes books and I didn't get past like page one because there was really nothing for me to say now that you know, but in that time I never thought in a million years I'd be going to jail, getting HIV or being homeless, you know?So now I actually [00:08:00] have some shit to talk about. And now that I've paid my dues, I have, I have like a justifiable reason to say the things I can say and do the things that I can do now, as opposed to before, where I just wanted it for the glitz and the GL, you see.Kim: Yeah, I think, I think you're, you're spot on with that too. I mean, if, if I think you did have something to say 10 or 15 years ago, because I've been reading your book and your home life wasn't necessarily all what everybody else experiences. Like you've got plenty to share and relationships growing up and whatever, but certainly the longer you live, the more you have to share, but You, you do need to do it for the right reasons and the right timing.And you kind of know when the timing is right. If you're gonna actually do it.De'Vannon: Mm-hmm now having said that when it comes to breaking the law. So all of my felonies I got in the year 2012 and about year [00:09:00] 2013, I started taking notes on the book. I was ready to release it within like that year, but it never worked out that way. I couldn't get my thoughts so organized and I didn't really have anyone to help me with it until about two years ago.What I also found out there's this little thing called statute of limitations, where, you know, if I don't want criminal fucking make myself, you know, criminalize myself. You know, confess the guilt that they can prosecute me with. I have to, you have to wait a certain amount of years after the crime has been done before you Blab about it in a book.So I didn't know that back when I was trying to force the thing to happen a year or two, after my fall felonies, I needed more time. So see everything happens when it's supposed to. And so it's been about 10 years since all the shit went down. And so we're well past the statutes of limitations. I can talk about all the drugs I sold.[00:10:00]Can we consider the legal implications too?Kim: I guess so, you know, I don't write about any felonies, so that never occurred to me. But there you are sharing some great wisdom. I'm sure with a lot of people, so that's awesome.De'Vannon: And so I wanna throw some shade at the, at the preachers that I was just talking about, who write all these books. Okay. Usually from my experience, they're a bunch of regurgitated sermons because preachers, these days tend to write out their sermons each Sunday. So each Sunday they're writing a little mini book and then what they do each year is they go back and they compile all their sermons into a new book, give it a new cover and a new title, throw in a few little weak ass, personal stories, and then put a different name to it.And then all the people are going to eat it up. Usually those books are not very complex. They're not, they're about surface level, but [00:11:00] Christians are an easy sell and church people are gonna buy any fucking thing. And I can say that because I used to be one of those church, people at the conferences buying all the tapes and the books and the CDs and every fucking thing, because I was starstruck by who was writing them.And, but I'm reading through it. And I like, I know they say at this, in one of those services before, it's the same shit. And so I'm not mad at the, I'm not mad at the preachers. You know, they, they play in the game very well, but you know it, but I have observed that these mainstream preachers do not talk a lot about themselves.Now. I haven't read everyone's books, but the, the ones that I did, their personal stories, don't go into like gritty, painful detail about the shit they've been through about all I've ever gotten from like a preacher. They might get a little upset from time to time or what do they say, or, or they'll generalize it like, you know, sometimes I just don't live [00:12:00] up to my best.They're not gonna tell me about that time. They were sucking Dick in the alley for cocaine and crack, you know, or, or when they slap the bitch across the face or got into a fight on the golf course, they don't, they don't really put themselves out there like that. And I don't really appreciate.Kim: you know, I think you're so right. You know, there's something that we said for transparency and, and vulnerability. Right. And the, the best books that I've written and, or read, not written, but read you see those things, you know, when, when people dive a little bit deeper and expose themselves, and then you can relate, cuz how do you relate to somebody who the worst thing that they ever do is get a little angry sometimes that, you know, holy cow, if that's the worst thing you've ever done, you can skip, you don't have to go to confession.You don't have to do anything. You can just whatever, go straight to heaven and enjoy your life. I guess. I [00:13:00] don't know what, what, what that kind of life is like, because I think we all live a little bit deeper than that. So it's, but I'll tell you too, that the reason those preachers do well with their books is they've got a built in.So they've, they've got their platform, they've got their following and everybody's gonna buy their book. And that's why they can sell a book after book, after book. And even though they're not big differences, one book from the next they'll sell 'em all because they've got their base of people that will all buy them.De'Vannon: Yeah, I, I would dare say the people have been brainwashed into it. I was once one of those people, and I'm not necessarily saying that's a negative thing. If you've got some pastor who who's ass, you kiss, like I used to kiss them, you know before I was pulled out of the matrix you know what, that's where you're at right now, then.Great. And if you were [00:14:00] some, I mean, if somebody listening to this is my, a light bulb may go on, they're like, Hey, I could go in there and sell shit to those fucking Christian folk they'll buy anything. You would be right. you would be right. it, it still, it felt kind of clickish to me, cuz like when I would, when I would be like at Lakewood and shit like that, and you know, Joe's writing a different book a year. Then his wife wrote run. I really enjoyed her book, you know? And now I think she has several, and I noticed like other members of like the een family that were not that, that, that were not necessarily at Lakewood also wrote books. And I was like, wait a minute. Seems like they've got a formula for this.Like a, a plan, a process. A ghost writer might be lurking in the back somewhere because okay. If people are not just naturally gifted authors, okay. Maybe your family just happens to be that everyone can write a, write a book. No bitch. You have a formula in place from the sermons on down. Some sort of sequence is being [00:15:00] followed so that you can, that all of y'all can stay on a writing schedule like this.And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I'm just saying, I wish that they would share that with everyone else too.Kim: Yeah, well, it's that? You're at. On and, and their name, you know, you put Olstein on a book and it's going to attract attention right away. You know, you put Crell on a book, you know, if somebody's not heard of SRE before, you know, no, one's gonna take a second look necessarily. You gotta come up with a way to get somebody to take a second look, but forget the name.It sure helps.De'Vannon: And there are ways to do it. And I feel like you were way more transparent in your book than any preacher I've ever heard. So, you know, in both of your books and everything like that, you know, I remember sitting in church, listening to those people, thinking like, wow, I, and this is pretty much any church I've been in.Like, you know, I really cannot relate with the people who are preaching to me yet. I'm listening to them and taking. I'm like, it doesn't sound like they've been [00:16:00] through, even before my felonies and everything, you know, it doesn't sound like they've been through half the shit I've been through in terms of the darker side of living.Why the fuck am I even listening to this person? Like what gives them the right to tell me anything? And so if you don't have een behind your name or some other big name, preacher out there, then here's what you can do. And this should not discourage you. Cause one thing I do know is that successes of the Lord and the Bible says the Hebrew Bible says that he will crown our efforts with success.And since you're writing this book, not for yourself, but other people, it should be enough if only a handful of people get a hold of it because that's somebody's life you help to change. And so if it sells a million copies all the better, but if it doesn't well, then you, you should be fulfilled because your reasons were right. And so you should not feel cheated. So we're not trying to be like. You know anybody, but who God wants us to [00:17:00] be or whatever it is you believe in or whatever it is, your spiritual angle is at this, or or, or your, your spiritual motivation is a better way to phrase that. But we don't self-publishing is a huge thing.Now, not, you know, being published is not like you don't have to be published to sell books or to be well known. I don't think that girl who wrote 50 shades of gray, I think she was self-published when she started. And then look at how long it took JK rolling to get to where she is. So publishing houses, don't always pin people accurately.Sometimes they get it wrong. So it's not all about knocking on publishing house. You don't really have to do that anymore. You can, if you want to, but some people have had really bad experiences with publishers.Kim: For sure, for sure. And self-publishing is bigger and bigger and bigger all the time. And and you can actually make more money self-publishing because you make more money per book. So there's pros [00:18:00] and cons to both to publishing and self-publishing, but Amazon in particular has made it so easy to self-publish and they're the biggest book seller in the world.And so to self-publish through Amazon and just follow their program is is really a great way to go. And it's a way a lot of authors get out there.De'Vannon: So we'll, we'll start at the beginning and Amazon is good for those of you who are anti Amazon, you think they're the devil and you don't wanna fuck with them. There are other ways, the, the people who I use was called draft to digital, and this is gonna be in the show notes, but that's a draft D R a F T the number two, and then digital.com.And what happens is you can upload your electronic book through them, and then they will distribute it to like a shitload of places, maybe like eight or 10 places you can select Amazon or not. And my audio book is also. May being made available [00:19:00] through them to about like 30 or 40 different places, including Amazon and audible. Some people don't like the complexity of like the audiobook world when it comes to like audibles and their ACX standards. But there's different ways. So you can go directly through Amazon Kindle, direct publishing. And all of that, like with Kim is talking about, or you can use like draft digital.There used to be a company called smash words, which also was a conglomerate place to publish, but draft to digital just bought out smash words. So we're just gonna focus on draft digital. So when you wanna start writing a book, the first thing you always want that you have something to say at that pointKim: No, no, but you're absolutely right. There are so many companies, there are companies that, that it is strictly self-publishing that they get it into the format for you. Help you get your ISBN number. They, you know, do the things that fill the blanks for you and, and how to get your book put together in a digital form.And then they, you know, get it to [00:20:00] whatever distributors there's hybrid places that actually do some editing and do some stuff. But aren't a full on publisher that don't do everything for you that a publisher would do. And that usually costs you money to have done. So there's options, lots of options.De'Vannon: Okay. So when we get started, we always wanna start our book with an outline. This is no different than writing a research paper, turn paper, whatever the fuck you want to call it. Those annoying ass fucking shits that they made us do in high school and in college. And if you never went to high school or in college, well, then we're gonna explain.It simply, cuz you do not have to have a specific education to be an author. You just have to know why you want to talk about what you wanna talk about. But an outline is simply a roadmap. If you're gonna write anything, you need to have a structure to it. An outline is your skeleton. You gotta hang some meat and muscles on the, on the bounds in a minute, but first you gotta have a direction.[00:21:00] You know what a, B, C, D. Now the outline for my book ended up being about like 10,000 words. Okay. When it was finalized. But I wrote about two books worth than one book because I didn't wanna divide the story up. So my book's about 121,000 words finished. We cut it down from about 130,000 words. But it seems like in the industry people, the 50,000 is the minimum they say from what I've come across.What have you, what have you heard about the minimum word count for books?Kim: Yeah. 50,000 is kind of on the low end and right, right. You wanna it's for nonfiction in particular the 200 page mark is, is sort of a special mark in the industry to be right around to 200 pages. So yeah, and, and some are certainly gonna go longer than that. Your story is, is longer than that.You, you got a lot more content, so [00:22:00] there's, there's rules that and guidelines, but they're all made to be broken.De'Vannon: Hell yeah. Rules are made to be broken. Fuck. Yes. on a Tuesday morning. Fuck. Yes. So when it comes to what she's saying, And I encountered this a lot and it really just fucking made my head hurting. I just threw all the fucking rules out of the window. You have these parameters and maybe that might matter more to a publisher, but when you're, self-publishing, you're free to do what the fuck you want, which is beautiful.So when your book is done, you're gonna have to do with something called formatting. So you're gonna, you, you're gonna outline the book, write the bitch, then you gotta format it. Which means getting exactly the sizes, the margins, the fonts, the letters, okay. Then you publish it. So the formatting is where you can play with things like the font size and the page.Cuz if you notice on Amazon, some books might be like six inches by nine inches. Like my book is another [00:23:00] one might be. Four inches by like, it's like some small shit. So what you do is you have a lot of content. Like I did, you put it on larger pages to try to make the book not be so many pages. If you don't have a lot of content, then you want to make the book a smaller format to stretch it out, to make it seem like you have more pages than you do.Kim: Yeah,De'Vannon: so and so,Kim: games you can play for sure. Yeah.De'Vannon: so, so now a good format will know how to do all of those tricks. If anybody needs a ref reference for a good format, I got you. I got you cuz writing. You know, was my thing, the formatting and all the numbers and shit. I was like, oh, hell no. You know, so I hired a formatter for my book. Now only like $50 to have it.Four minute 30, $50. We're not talking about a Garganto and amount of money here. You can certainly save $50. If you think that this is your life's work. And then [00:24:00] even if you don't want to go in fool with mashing, the publishing buttons and stuff like that, then people will do that for you too, for a small amount of money.Kim: Right. Yeah. I love the resource fiber. I don't know if you've used fiber, but you can get anything done on fiber, including book formatting book cover the back of the book, the fine, you know, you can get anything done and prices can start at $10, $15, you know, for somebody in some other country to do the work for you.And your time is more valuable than that. So , it's definitely worthwhile to spend the 50 bucks or whatever to get your book formatted.De'Vannon: And she said fiver, and of course I'm gonna put all this in the showy note, just like I always do. I used a website called 99 designs.com for the cover for my podcast and for all of my books. And I met a guy in Greece who I now use exclusively for all of my design work, because we're just [00:25:00] so on the same page, but it's that same sort of concept.It's a website that brings a bunch of creatives together with people who need creatives. And then you can just get an all under one roof. So five 99 designs.com and then upwork.com is another one that you can use as well. So we've got, so we're gonna do the outline, you know, our ABC small, a little, a number one all the way over.You'll start your outline with broad strokes. You wanna come up with your chapter titles, which you can change them anytime, but you need to kind of know what you're gonna be talking about. And And then from there, you build it out. Each chapter's gonna have this and each bullet point can be like really thick.It could be a paragraph. And then when you go back to write the book, you're just going to take and really make the story come alive with all the sense and the flavors and the, and all the words and the metaphors and all the nice verbiage to help it become alive to the reader. Now, if you're not good at this, [00:26:00] then you can hire, what's called a ghost writer to either write it for you or to help you write it.And so when I was working with someone at the beginning of, well, during my process, You know, until I decided to take it over for myself because they got on my nerves. You know, we met and did like a zoom meeting, like every day for like two or three weeks for an hour. At least sometimes it was two hours or maybe three.I did go through since I was doing a memoir. I just went back from the time I was born to the present day and just wrote everything out that I could think of. And it was about 50,000 words when I was done. And then I went and put that into a chronological outline and that's what I submitted to him.He didn't require it. Cuz some ghost writers can just listen to you talk and then turn into a book. But I wanted to be really thorough and detailed. And so I submitted that along with court documents and everything like that because I really wanted my book to come alive. I was extra. You don't have to do all of that, [00:27:00] but there's a website called read C.R E E D S y.com that it's like dedicated to ghostwriters and the whole writing thing. But you can also find ghostwriters on like Upwork than probably five or two. You have a lot of options. So if you wanna write a book and you're like, fuck, I don't know about if I can handle this outline shit, or if I don't have the time for it.And you know, I've got this story, but I, I don't wanna write it. Okay. Half the authors with their name on the front book, didn't write the shit. someone else wrote it for them. SoKim: Yeah. Yep. That's so true. That's so true. And, and if you, if there's a book that you really like that you've really enjoyed that style of writing, find out if a ghost writer has done it, find out you a lot of times it will say like for instance Don Piper's story, 90 minutes in heaven was written by Cecil McKay.So it says Don Piper with Cecil McKay. And so if you see that, then, you know, Cecil's done the writing. [00:28:00] And, and so if you see a book that you really enjoy that style, you think it fits with what you've got. You can look into it and see who actually wrote the book. And maybe that's somebody to tap into.De'Vannon: Mm-hmm now the high end ones, you know, sometimes they may be hard to reach, you know, so, and then sometimes, you know, they're gonna cost more, you know, ghost writers. The highest that I came across in my research was around like maybe 70 to 90,000. You. But you know, you have, like, I think on Upwork, I was looking at 'em where they may be charged from like more hourly, like 10 to 50 an hour.I think I saw was breezing over it briefly before we got on this call this morning. You know, the, the prices are all over the place. It just depends on what you can afford and what you want to pay and how serious you're taking your story. But more to the point how you connect with the person who's gonna be writing for you.Cause you're getting ready to spill all kinds of tea with this bitch. You gotta feel like you can trust them because you're gonna tell that ghost writer hell of a lot [00:29:00] more than gets released to the public.Kim: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say too, interview people. You don't have to go with somebody just because you go on one of these websites and that's the name that comes up, interview them. You're gonna be paying them. So take the time to get to know them, let them get to know you and see if it's a fit. If it's not a fit, walk away, you know, no harm and find somebody else.There's plenty of people out.De'Vannon: There are. And, but through, through these websites, also, they monitor the work that's being done. And so, and you don't pay them until the work, you know, until portions of the work are done, like with the guy who who's, who did my audio book formatting through up work, you know, I could go in there and see like his computer screen, what he was doing the time it was taking, like their screenshots and files and stuff like that, you know?So they act as a good mediator. So you don't have to worry about somebody running off with your money, you know,Kim: Right, right, right. It's a good thing. [00:30:00] Yes,De'Vannon: But if you choose to, to go off the, off the grid and not use one of these websites, sometimes people will meet people on these websites and then start paying them separately. That's fine too, but pay them through PayPal or through some sort of way that you're paying for goods and services so that some shit goes down.You still have some insurance,Kim: mm-hmm right. Great advice. Yes.De'Vannon: but that's a, but that's a super relief. So now, if you feel like you don't, you can't do the outline and you can't really write it, but you've got something you wanna say, well, that's what ghost writers are for. And it happens more often than you think, and you don't have to put their name on the front cover of your book.That's not what their job is. Their job is to write, not to do the face of it, but if you like them and you want to, then you can, that's up to you. You're the author. You own the work when it's all said and done. And so so now you've got your, your book. Britain, you can go to 99 [00:31:00] designs that you a cover done.They they'll do the inside flaps, the spine, all of that. Or you can go to fiber wherever you may know your own graphic person. These people know that books have to be formatted through certain sizing and everything like that. They got you. You don't have to try to do this all at once. You will do this one step at a time.You will not get ahead of yourself. so you won't worry about how this, you know, how the story ends before it begins. I'll say it like that, generally speaking, although there can be exceptions. So that depends on how you're gonna write it. If you're not doing a memoir, you know, my knowledge is kind of, you know, it's a little bit different if you're gonna go like more Scholastic or something like that, but you know, people, you know, can write just about whatever you want.I say, it's at least worth looking into once you have the book written. Now we need to get us a copyright. You don't have to get a copyright. The moment you open up a [00:32:00] document and I don't know, maybe use something other than Microsoft word. That's what I use. That, that Microsoft word doesn't really translate well to formatting, but my formatters we're able to figure it out, but it's a bitch.If you, if you do it in word, don't go in there and try to fuck with page numbers and the headings and stuff like that. Just let it be a plain fucking document with just the typing. Cause if you try to format it and make it all book, like word is just gonna fuck it up. Just don'tKim: Right. That's.De'Vannon: a formatter so they can open up them swanky ass apps.They have that you probably won't. Cause I don't have those apps, but my four matters do and they can Shaza me. That shit, you know, like real quickKim: Yeah, for sure. For sure. You know, a couple things I'd like to throw in one is. It's all well and great. Like what you're saying, an outline is can be everything because it can make writing the actual book so much easier [00:33:00] when you know, this is what your chapter one's gonna be about. This is what your chapter two's gonna be about.When you have the ideas, then you can just put it on paper. But the motivation to actually write can be difficult for people. And so everybody has a different formula for that. You know, some people are early morning writers and will get up in the morning and five days a week, or they'll commit whatever time and an hour a day or.Whatever, like, I think it can seem so overwhelming when you're thinking, oh my gosh, I'm gonna write a 200 page book. How am I gonna do that? It can seem like this great big mountain, but it's sort of like the analogy of the had eat Eden elephant one bite at a time. Right. And so commit to a half an hour, you know, commit to so many words a day. Figure out when your best time to write. Is, are you, are you better at night? Like, is that when things come into focus for you, are you better first thing in the morning? You know, [00:34:00] what is your schedule? Like, what is your time like? And put it on the calendar. If that's what you need to do and commit to the time, that's how you're gonna actually get it from idea to book.Is is making sure that happens. And there's a, something that all writers know, all, all authors who are doing this know, but a good thing to know is show not tell. So in a movie script you tell, but in a book you show, you let people see the picture for themselves. You, you don't have to tell them every intimate detail you describe things.You know, the, you don't have to say somebody was nervous. You say something more like and the sweat started, you know, coming on his upper lip and brow and, you know, whatever. And then, you know, he was nervous, right? So it's show at tell is a big, big thing with books.De'Vannon: Right. [00:35:00] That was a warning that I came across early in my writing is to not to get caught up on being overly detailed which is why I decided to go with the ghost riders because I was too, at least at first, as I was too attached to my story, you know, I knew I was way too emotional about it to give it a true objective look, you know, I was going@ittryingtogetdowntolikeeverylikelittlepolka.in the room, you know, at really unnecessary.So I needed, I needed somebody to help me with that. So, so I'm gonna tell you why I had. Well, part of the reason why I had the falling out was my ghost writer. And then I just took over the writing for myself and kind of, you know, finished it because okay. So I had paid him like $40,000 cash to, to do my book. I wanted a, a good writer. I didn't want someone who was just beginning. He wasn't actually on the highest end. Like I said, I came across 70 to 90,000 out [00:36:00] there. You, he wasn't on the highest end. He wasn't on the lowest end, so, okay. Let me go do what I gotta do to make this money. I won't tell you what I did to come up with that money.All you need to know is that I acquired it all we gonna say about that.Kim: That's that's.De'Vannon: after my statues of limitations passed so, but what I didn't think to do. Now, this person wasn't very clear. We didn't really necessarily have an official contract. And, but there was some guidelines laid out. I got upset because we were in about the third revision and he was telling me, well, that's it that's as that's as much for, as your money's gonna take you.I'm now gonna charge you. Well, something like the 150 or $200 an hour to continue. I ended up having to revise the book, like maybe two or three more times. But, but from my [00:37:00]perspective, and everyone's got their own perspective. I'm like, if, if I bitch, if I paid you $40,000, not to mention, I flew this individual down here to Louisiana.And then we spent like a month traveling to Texas, Mississippi, new Orleans, seeing places and everything like that, all on my dime, you know, you know, You know, so by the time's done with him, it's like a good $50,000 project. I think that you should do full service and see the thing through to the end.Don't cut me off at two or three revisions cuz anybody who's written a book knows damn well, you're gonna have to review that. And I didn't know this at the beginning, you know, I didn't, I, I know it now. I didn't know this at first. You're going to have to go through that motherfucker time and time and time again.And you're still gonna miss shit. So this, so we've all read books where we've seen a word misspelled or some spacing or a quote missing and great authors too. It could, there comes a point where your head is just going to crack the fuck [00:38:00] open. If you look at that shit again, I think I did mine like 10, 12 times, and I there's still shit that I find I'm the most detailed person.I know I could have hired an editor, but I knew that if I hired then paid them, they would miss shit too. And then I would be pissed. So, and then there may be some editors that are that good that they don't miss anything. But so far, my experience has been with paying people to do a job that they always make mistakes so, so I'm saying all that to say, if you go with a ghost writer or format or anything, be sure that it, it is in the contract that whatever the, the, the rate is includes unlimited revisions until the shit is done.That way you don't fall into the trap that I did because cuz now I'm thinking, okay, have you intentionally given me subpar riding on these first three revisions so that you can turn around and charge me $200 an hour because you knew the shit wasn't really as good as it was supposed to be, you [00:39:00] know?Kim: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And you paid a lot of money. That, that is a lot of money. I know some excellent ghostwriter, excellent ghost riders that are best sellers, you know, that put out best sellers and charge a lot less money than that and, and see the job true till the end. So yes, finding the right one is that's very important, the right one with the right contract.De'Vannon: Right. That, that shit pissed me off. Cause at first his name was on the front of my book with me, but that pissed me off so bad. Well actually I had already, he did something else that pissed me off that and I snatched his name off the front cover of my book because of that. I was like, oh hell no, this is not gonna work.You know, and and so some some people just think a little bit more themselves I think, than they should, you know? And so so yeah, you know, just.Kim: Yeah, I, I was just gonna say that, and it's not just working with a ghost writer and self-publishing that you run into [00:40:00] that. My second book love is is traditionally published. And so they hire an editor or they'll have an editor of like a content editor, you know, not a periods and, you know, punctuation and spelling kind of editor, but a content editor, creative editor they'll have them in house.Sometimes they hire them from outside depending on your project and, and who they think you'll fit with. And the editor that my publisher hired. I picture her in little house on the Prairie. And I think she's got, you know, six or seven friends that goes to a super small church that saw I picture her.I don't know if it's true, but she wears long skirts with little tiny flower prints. And all of her friends look exactly like her. And so everything that I said that didn't fit into her little Christian box, she wanted out of my book and she w actually argued with me about my content. [00:41:00] And I got to the point where I was just done with her.We were a horrible fit. She's probably really good with some people, not with me at all. I thought, man, my publisher doesn't even know me if they think that this woman is gonna work with me because it did not work. She made me think about a couple things, but honestly I hope I made her think about a couple things, but in the end I just kind of threw out most of anything she had to say and, and did it myself. So it can, it can happen with the publisher or you're doing it yourself. So make sure, you know, it's a, it's okay to let somebody go. If it's not work and let, 'em go kind of loads.De'Vannon: And look you Like you don't, you can publish a book at any time in terms of traditional publishing. Like what Kim is talking about, going through a, a publishing house. You, you could create your own fucking publishing house, which technically is what you have if you self publish, but like [00:42:00] say, okay, so with sex, drugs and jeans is my memoir.I'm gonna give myself three to five years. Okay. To see how the sales go and what I can do, marketing it myself. If I don't feel like it has enough momentum, then I'll start to pitch the book to, to publishers at that time. So you don't have to, it's not like you have an ultimatum either self-publish or do traditional the moment you write the book, you can, you can change that later on.Kim: Mm, right, right. At any time. Yeah, for sure.De'Vannon: Now, can you go from being published traditionally? Like you are take it from the publisher and go back to self-publishing.Kim: You kind of can't cuz you sign a contract with them that, that they kind of own own your book at that point. And so you, you really can't go back the other way. You'd have to be let outta the contract. A whole lot of things would have to happen. You'd have to change your book a bit to put it out there on your own.So once you're with your a publisher, you're pretty locked in, but like you [00:43:00] said, you can go my first book I went from self-publishing and then I was picked up by a publisher. So you can go the other way, but not, not once you start with a publisher you're you're you're all theirs.De'Vannon: I want you to say you were picked up by a publisher and I've heard other authors say that before that they find you and make you an offer. Did you find them?Kim: I actually, I was at a writer's conference and the keynote speaker gave him a copy of my book. And then he contacted me and hooked me up with a publisher cuz. He liked it and thought that it should be out there more. And that that's the one advantage or, or one there's several advantages either way.But one advantage of a publisher is that they have a network. And so they're getting your book, not out to eight places, but to, you know, a couple hundred places, they can get it into book and mortar stores. It's hard to get a self-published book into [00:44:00] Barnes, noble, you know, to put on the bookshelf of different bookstores, but a publisher can do that.A publisher has those connections and they've got the network to get your book into every platform and, and everywhere, online and in stores and whatever. So your distribution right away with publisher is gonna be different than with self-publish.De'Vannon: Okay. So the trade off is you make less per book with the publisher, but you get wider distribution. So that's the balancing act, as opposed to, as opposed to making more per book with less distribution, doing it on your own.Kim: That that and money, like when you publish through a publisher, it doesn't cost you a dime. They pay you money up front for the book. And so you are making money. Whereas if you self-publish, you're paying for your cover and you're paying for the formatting, you might be paying for a ghostwriter. You know, you've got some [00:45:00] out of pocket money, but in the end it can really pay off for you.So. And it's very difficult though, too, to get published by a publisher. It's not the same book world that it used to be. You have to have a platform. You've gotta have so many people on your Facebook. So many people on, on Instagram, you've gotta have a, an email list of thousands. You have to, there has to be something about you.That's going to be able to get into the hands of people right away that you've got connections out there. If you are a movie star, you know, or a singer or, you know, somebody famous publisher's gonna look at you if you're. Just a regular person. Like we are, you know, whatever. It's hard to be noticed by a publisher and hard for publisher to have motivation to because they take a risk cuz it's, they're gonna be laying out money right away.They're giving you money and then they're investing in you. They're paying for the editor, [00:46:00]they're paying for all that stuff. So they've got an investment and they are only gonna take so much risk. They wanna know that you're gonna sell the number of copies to not just recoup their investment, but make them money.So it's it's not easy to be traditionally published. It's not easy to find a publish.De'Vannon: Now that they give you an advance. Cause I know with some people they'll like, say give them an advance advance of advance of money. So many hundred thousand dollars or millions or whatever. And the thing is the benefit of that for the author is so if they give you a cash advance, however much it is, you do not have to pay that back.So if. If the book ever sells enough to compensate the publishing house for that or not, you know, they're taking a risk cuz they can't come back to you and be like, oh, well you didn't sell a million dollars worth of books. Can we have the 275,000 left or whatever? No, it doesn't work that way, but you won't get any more money until you sell enough books to meet that, that, that threshold to cover the advance.[00:47:00]So, and how.Kim: exactly. And a $275,000 advance would be a rare, rare advance. That would be a bill Clinton advance. You know, that would be a somebody advance. An advance can be anywhere from a couple thousand dollars. $20,000 is, is a, a decent advance for somebody. I, I know people that I've got a good friend who has, I think, 17 published books and she's been on the New York times bestseller list.And, and depending on the book, she will get anywhere from 15 to $30,000 for an advance. And she's a writer. I mean, this is what she does. And, and she also always for her next book, it's a struggle to find the right publisher and to get a publisher to say yes, so you can be published and you, can you have your name out there?And, you know, like we started out with, if you're not Steven King or John Grham, or, you know, whoever, you know, Joel [00:48:00] Olstein than than getting a big advance and getting publishers is not, not the easiest road.De'Vannon: Right. And so, like I was talking earlier about like copyrights and stuff like that. copyright.gov is where I go to, to get like all the music I write copyrighted. I, I did get my book copyrighted and everything like that. It's not necessary. I've been told the moment you started working on it. You automatically own the rights to it, but we're talking about maybe 50 or $60 or something like that, just to have that extra layer protection.So yeah, I yanked the bitch, you know, I think if you go through a publishing house it's different. I'm not sure who owns it. It may different, depending on the contract, it may differ. How does that work? Who actually, well, you said you signed the rights to them, so.Kim: Right. We're right. But there's the ISB N number. So every book is assigned an ISB N number. And I think you do want that for sure. If you're gonna write a book, get one. And like you said, they're 50 bucks or whatever. You can buy packages of them. Like you can get [00:49:00] 10 numbers for a hundred and dollars or I, and out exactly how much, but they're easy to get.And then the book automatically goes into the library of Congress. It is forever your name on the book. Nobody can steal your content. It is it makes it an official book. It makes it a real book. And so that's something you wanna do is get that number.De'Vannon: And I think boer.com I'll research it before I put, put it in the showy notes, but BW K E r.com I think is where I went to get my ISBNs and, and they have like book ISBNs. Now I use, I had used like a different website when I designed my underwear line for down under apparel to get like clothing. But this Bo one seems to be like, let's say like the draft.Website recognizes. So, so, so we gotta be careful where we get our ISBs from there. There's a lot of shit being sold in this world. And I don't think you can just get random mass ISBs and [00:50:00] just slap 'em on whatever it has to be specific from what I'm from, what I'm learning so far. Seems like it's kind of specific to what you're trying to sell.Kim: Exactly. Exactly. You do need one for a book for sure. Yep. Yeah.De'Vannon: So, oh, go ahead where you wanna say something, dear?Kim: Nope. You go right ahead.De'Vannon: So we've talked about outlining the book writing. It could be any sort of book, how to get help for that. If you're not good with that sort of thing, the websites you can go to. So we've established the fact that you're not really some lonely alone author sitting somewhere in front of a laptop, trying to figure it out.You got all the fucking help you need. And of course you can email Kim or me, and then we'll be happy to tell you what we can, you are so not alone. So once you have this book out, and even if you are a pub publish through a publishing house, that doesn't mean that you have to set back and let them do all the work.You can still pub, you know, market yourself if you want to. So most of what I'm [00:51:00] saying, or pretty much all of what I'm saying has to do with self-publishing because I ain't selling my shit to nobody until I have a chance, you know, to do with myself. If I could sell drugs and sell the military as a recruiter, I'm gonna see what I can do with my own book first, before I let somebody buy my shit.And so. So, so now we're gonna talk about how can we get the word out or your social media making like a Facebook author page I've been told is a really good idea. I didn't do that because I have a podcast page on Facebook and the book is the same name as the podcast. So it was kind of like a redundant thing for me, at least at this point, , you know, you know, now once I release my next two books this year, the Navy I'll set up an author page, but I ain't got time to work with all that shit.I need to hire an assistant to do that. I'm running too many businesses, like I'm at my breaking point, but,Kim: that's another thing you can use five or in places like that for is some of that kind of stuff that, that is sort of [00:52:00] the, the busy work of, of marketing that you can get somebody to do it for you for not a ton of money. So you don't have to stay up at night. Wondering why haven't I gotten it done or, you know, feeling overwhelmed with stuff.There are people out there, there are sources that you can tap into that will help you with stuff like that, too.De'Vannon: Yeah. So that's a good idea. So maybe once I so I'm working on a book called don't call me a Christian, which is gonna be a free book, but still it's a book. There's gonna be a free ebook on my website. And then I'm writing a book of poetry too. That will not be a free book, but so then I might go on five or somewhere like that and be like, Hey, I need someone to just run this author page on Facebook post.And cause I look at your author page on Facebook and you've got all the pictures going on and you're engaging with the audience and everything like that. And I'm all like that is such a great idea. Who has the time isKim: Oh, my gosh, I hear you. It is it, yeah, I, I get [00:53:00] overwhelmed. You know, my, my book was my latest book. Love is, was published on December 7th. And I have to keep telling myself it is a marathon, not a sprint. Like I want the book to sell thousands today. I want it in people's hands. I believe in the message, just like you do your book, but you gotta realize it's one person at a time.And then hopefully that person will tell somebody, you gotta buy this book. It's a great book. And I think statistically too, every one book that's actually out there, five people or seven people will read that book because people will share a book. And so, you know, the numbers that you sell aren't necessarily the numbers of people that are reading it.And if you really wanna monetize things, you've gotta figure out ways to do it. Like I think you do such a great job of like I love your book. Cover is amazing and would be, and makes an amazing t-shirt makes an amazing. Journal [00:54:00] cover, right? Makes an amazing, a lot of other things that then you can use Shopify or whoever to print full, you know, to do those things for you and you don't even have to touch it, but figuring out other ways to monetize your product, not just the book itself, but what else can you do with that?What other programs can you do? Is there coaching that you can do along with it? Is there you know, webinars that you can hold or whatever that you can help promote the book, but, but also monetize it in another way.De'Vannon: that's pretty badass. I had not thought of that.Kim: Well, that's why we're friends cuz what I don't think of you do and what you don't think of. I do.De'Vannon: Yeah. I thought that sister, so and so in terms of marketing, also, there is a website called pod match.com and podcasting is huge. I have heard it said that it's a good idea. If [00:55:00]someone's gonna be an author, if they feel like they have the skill and they would care to do it. And if they feel called to it to start a podcast, because the two can balance, the two can benefit each other.And so that was, that was, that was why the idea first came to my, came to me to start a podcast because people were telling me, Hey, start a podcast. If you're gonna write a book, so you can start to get that audience building up. And so that's something to think about. So if you ever think you wanna start a podcast, I recommend pod match.com.My affiliate link will be in the show notes. You can sign up and so I can get paid. But it's a way that makes podcasting easy. You can go on. This is website. It's like Tinder. But for podcasting and you can be a podcast, host a podcast guest on this website. You can sign up to find people to come on your show, or if you have a book and you don't wanna do a podcast, or you can use other people's podcasts and their Audi audiences, as they've already established to market your book for [00:56:00] you, you don't have to pay to go on someone's podcast.Now through pod match, it's a free service. If you wanna upgrade like me and pay the $39 a month, then you can have more access. But when it comes to to, to, to book promotions going on people's podcast is a huge thing that's trending right now in podcasts. The industry is just growing and growing and growing and you don't even have to pay for that.That's free fucking money, you know, it's, it's just free. And so now, so we wanna avoid way websites out there who are gonna try to charge you ridiculous amounts of money, like hundreds of dollars to go on. Like people shows saying this person's this great. They've got all this going on, but there are no guarantees.You know, you may spend all that money and not get shit from that interview. And cuz you're gonna have to grow your skills as a podcast guest and everything like that. And so through pod matches either free or you can pay 39 a month for more access to it. But it's a good service either way. There's just too many vultures [00:57:00] out there looking to take advantage of artists and people who are just trying to express themselves.Kim: Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. There's you, you do have to be on the lookout, just like you do with everything else. You've gotta be, be aware and, and be careful. And if something looks too good to be true, you gotta know that it is too good to be true. Somebody promises you that they're gonna sell so many of your books.It's not gonna happen. Like, unless they're personally gonna buy a thousand books, you, there is no guarantee that that a thousand books are gonna be sold. So you gotta ignore those things and do the hard work yourself.De'Vannon: Yeah. Cause before I fired the production team that I had previously, who I met through the same person who was the ghost writer, who I also fired they were charging me like a hundred dollars per person to find someone to come on my show for me to interview.Kim: Oh, my word.De'Vannon: Now, these are people that they already knew usually.So it's not like they [00:58:00] had to do any kind of work, but send a few emails. And so, but that's, this sort of thing is common. It happens through pod match. I was able to stop paying them like $1,500 a month to, to work with my show and everything. And I learned how to do this shit myself. It's easy. I don't even have to actually go and look for people because they find me on pod match and ask me to come on my show.So I don't even have to. So I went from paying a hundred dollars a person to have someone come on my show to $39 a month to have unlimited amounts of people, you know, trying to come on my show.Kim: Right, right. Well, and they do have a free choice too. So you can even just do it for free. You're not gonna necessarily get as many matches, but but there are free things that you can do as well, but definitely worth it with pod match to pay the $39 a month. Absolutely.De'Vannon: But it's also a community. Kim. I learned Alex and FETO is the genius that is behind what is pod [00:59:00] match? They have like over 20,000, 25,000 people on pod match now, and it's always growing and they've bought out other pod, other similar companies before, because nobody's doing it better than they are. I learned where to get the, the equipment set up for my podcast and everything through pod match.You know, you have a community there, so you're not alone. Cause a lot of people wanna start a podcast and they're sitting there alone in their room. Like where the fuck do I begin? And then you go on the internet and you have all these people trying to sell you all this bullshit that you don't need. But through pod, through, through the pod match community, which is a different website, but you access it through pod match.com.You can post a question. Hey, where do I start? You can just message Alex and Filippo the found it directly. Then he will tell you I would just throw it out there. I currently use a road eroded mic and a NGO camera. They just plug into my mic and they just plug into my MacBook. There's no switchboards and switchy that needs to happen.You know, some people like to get complex with it. [01:00:00] That's fine if you wanna hold mixing sound board, but I just plug this bitch in and go. And I use the same mic

Kimberly Yates is the Founder and CEO of Latitude Food Allergy Care, the Co-Chair of FARE's Board of National Ambassadors, and a food allergy mom. Kim has been a force for change in the food allergy community since she sought a cure for her daughter's severe multiple food allergies. The struggle became more than personal for Kim - It's become mission-driven! She joined forces with Dr. Kari Nadeau to raise the resources necessary to transform the spark of an idea for a clinical trial into a food allergy research center. This work led to the founding of Latitude Food Allergy Care, which provides patients, of all ages, with real solutions to improve their quality of life through comprehensive food allergy assessment, diagnosis, prevention, and treatment. Kim shares her story of hope, vulnerability, and strength to better the life those with food allergies. Additional information can be found here:  https://latitudefoodallergycare.com/

INTRODUCTION: Kim Sorrelle is the director of a humanitarian organization, popular speaker, and the author of two books. Her first book, Cry Until You Laugh, is about her and her husband's battle with cancer after being diagnosed just four months a part. Her second book, Love Is, chronicles her year long quest to figure out the true meaning of love, a sometimes funny, sometimes scary, always enlightening journey that led to life-changing discoveries found mostly on the streets of Haiti.   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Stop Being Judgmental  ·      Read The Bible To Improve Yourself, Not Others·      Deep Insight Into Life In Haiti·      Deep Insight Into VooDoo – HooDoo – Witchcraft ·      Catholic Shade·      Church Codependency ·      Fucking Nuns!!!·      Physical Abuse Just Ain't Right!!!·      Overcoming Government Hurdles ·      My Personal Story Of Being A Victim Of Witchcraft  CONNECT WITH KIM: Website & Books: https://www.KimSorrelle.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3vRFWXfFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/loveisbykim/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimsorrelle/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/Kim_SorrelleLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3tEzK24Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/ksorrelle/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@livelove_outloud  KIM'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      All You Need Is Love (The Beatles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xMfIp-irg  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      Black Licorice (consult your doctor): https://www.webmd.com/diet/black-licorice-health-benefits#1 ·      VooDoo Explained: https://bit.ly/36SBA83 ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hey, Hey. Hey, all my lovely peoples out there. Thank you so much for tuning into the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. Again, one more week. I appreciate you very fucking much. Now, today I'm delighted to be talking to my sister, Kim, surreal, who is the author of love is, and also another book called cry and tell you why.Now, this is our second interview. And in this episode, we're continuing our [00:01:00] conversation about Hoodoo and voodoo and witchcraft. I'm going to give you my personal story of how I was a victim of a witchcraft, and then we're throwing shade at judgmental, Christians in churches, because for some unknown reason, they don't seem to get the point that the whole reason to read the Bible is to improve yourself.Not other people take a listen to this episode.Hi, is this the girl, how you doing today? Kim: I'm doing great. How are you? My brother,De'Vannon: I am marvelous and I am so goddamn. Happy to have you back with me today. I felt like it was divine Providence. It was meant to be and everything like that. The last time that we did an interview, when it was over, I felt like I just didn't want to let you go. And I [00:02:00] feel like that God has bonded us and infused our souls together.And I have a feeling that we're going to be seeing a lot more of each other in the days to come.Kim: I think exactly the same way. I am so happy about it. I have to say, because I feel like we are, we are meant to know each other. We are meant to be friends. We are meant to be in each other's lives and I love.De'Vannon: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so on the last show, we covered stuff like the, about you went, you, you, you and your husband went through with cancer, how it is being a widow and everything like that. Since the husband that we were speaking about as, as you put it in your book, love is, was the gifted with the was gifted with a ticket to have, and it was either love is or cry until you laugh.One of those books that, that, that one liner was in there. And it stood out to me. And we talked about how you received your cancer medical diagnosis on a voicemail and talked about how I got my HIV diagnosed on a voicemail. [00:03:00] And that was a whole thing because doctors shouldn't do that. Kim: Ever ever, never, ever.De'Vannon: And then we happily hopped down the rabbit hole and talked about the health benefits of black licorice for quite a while. Kim: Yeah. So it was good. How we stay just in one direction, kept on just one topic the whole time.De'Vannon: Right. Kim: Yeah.De'Vannon: So Kim's arousal to the author. She's an entrepreneur and speaker cancer survivor, and a lover of black licorice. As we were just talking about. Now, you got two books one's called love is one's called cry until you laugh. Your website is Kim surreal that calm, of course, that will be in the show notes as I always put it, but I would just spell it.It's K I M S O R R E L L e.com. So I want you for both of those books. Why didn't you [00:04:00] title love is love is and why did you title cry until you laugh, cry until you laugh? Kim: Well, Brian too, you laugh is the journey of being diagnosed with cancer. And four months later, my husband being diagnosed with cancer and then losing him six weeks later. And so I wrote for a bit over a year. And when, when you go through stuff like that, you cry and it's good to cry. You know, it, you're going to grieve it and grief can be healthy.You know, you need to recognize it and breathe it. And so, but there has to be a moment. When you allow yourself to laugh again, when you don't feel guilty thinking that you're somehow dishonoring the one who was left or their life or wallowing in self-pity or self-doubt or whatever, then you can release that and laugh again.You, you [00:05:00] have to be able to do that. So that is the cry until you laugh. And then love is, is because it's a book about what love really is. And I used a 2000 year old poem. Love is patient love is kind, does not envy does not boast. They has 14 love ISS and love isn't in it. So love is, was a pretty natural title for that.De'Vannon: I love how you describe that, that.Hebrew scripture, the 2000 Euro poem. I think That's very beautiful, Kim: what it is. Yeah.De'Vannon: cause he's just, he's talking about an excerpt from the belief first Corinthians 12 or 13. I think it's very scrutiny in the 13 and. And it's, and it's a law from a letter that the apostle Paul had written to the church at Corrine. And and she's describing it as a poem. And so I think that that's very cool to point [00:06:00] out because the Bible is, you know, a collection of writings and it can be looked at in a thousand different ways.And so I think that that's a, a beautiful perspective to have on it. Kim: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think if you look at the Bible that way and you read that Bible, that way, that it's a collection of poems and stories and life events, you know, just it's, it's just a beautiful book that has all these different elements put together written by different people during different times.And and if you look at it that way, it's it's not so intimidating, right. It's just a beautiful script.De'Vannon: Well, I think that the Bible's ever meant to be intimidating. You know, it's a, it's a collection of people's thoughts and. And their wisdom and their mind for the set of knowledge that they had at the time. [00:07:00] And so I look at it from, okay, this is someone else's life that I'm looking at. What can I learn from it?You know, what can I, what what's gonna serve me here. And I really wish more people would look at the Bible from like a self-improvement aspect, as opposed to, how can I go into this Bible and find out what's wrong with everybody else? Kim: Yeah, so true. So true. And there is so much to learn. I mean, there's so much to learn every time I read something that I've read before I see something different in it. It's, it's so unique that way that it's constantly giving. If you let it.De'Vannon: Right. And so, and I want to issue that warning to people who are starting spiritual paths and spiritual journeys and stuff like that, to let the focus always be you it's so easy to get caught up in self-righteousness and judging other people. When you get going, walking with God or being a Christian specifically, [00:08:00] I cannot say that I have had this experience with people I've interacted with, from other faiths the whole judging people thing.That from my experience so far in my almost 40 years of logging this earth, that almost seems to be exclusively Christian, just, just from my take on it. Somebody who I no longer affiliate with he was telling me, he was, when I first met him, he was like agnostic. He didn't believe in anything, whatever.And he had some sort of come to Jesus moment and now he was going to somewhere. Cherish or some sort of religious group or whatever. And I asked him whenever somebody tells me that the first thing I asked them. Okay, well, what do you think about the LGBTQ plus community? Because I'm in that community.And I need to know that I'm talking to somebody who thinks that there's something wrong with me, because if that's the case, we can no longer continue to associate, but I'm not going to abuse myself like that. And so and so then he got into the whole, well, you know, I'm just saying what the Bible says.If, if, if the answer to that question is [00:09:00] anything other than no, you all a perfectly fine. That means you think something's wrong with us. No matter how you try it. No matter how you try to wrap. Hey, you know, and I cannot tell you how many times I've asked people who try to come on. My show are people who in various ways, I meet them where they stand on this and they've got some sort of Vegas just thought of, well, it's all sins bad.No, no, no, no, no. There's only two right answers to that question. You could be like neutral and just not give a fuck one way or the other. If you had the awakening to understand that you don't actually have to have an opinion about everything, but that takes a different level of growth. And most people haven't made it there yet.Or the other one is just to be like, you know what? I don't know. I, I read the Bible for me. I'm not concerned about other people and there's nothing wrong with y'all. So before I dismissed him, I let him know. You know, when you read through the Bible, since you're a new Christian, you ain't been trying [00:10:00] this renewed even a year yet, and you have all these opinions about my lifestyle. You know, I said, just remember that the book that you're reading is an American, it.did not come from from white conservative people, even though they'd been in charge of the interpretations of it. It's not their book. And it does not an American book. It is from the middle east, and it was written in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic at, until you go back and read those original languages and learn to decipher them for yourself, then you are judging me off of someone else's opinion on someone else's book.Yes. Kim: But that is such a great way to put it. And that is absolutely so true. And so many things, so many things have been misinterpreted that bad being one of them. And I don't understand why churches Call themselves church, right? Christianity is supposed to be about love and peace and joy. And the opposite of judging yes.That it's preached from the pulpit, from the pulpit. I have never [00:11:00] understood that. Why, why anybody would be judged a combatant first of all. But secondly, the way it's interpreted as absolutely wrong God created you to be who you are. God created me to be who I am and the best thing we can do is let each other live.The way that God created them to be the minute we start saying, no, if you are a part of that community, you're destined to have for help, you know, that's bad, it's a sentence it's wrong. Then you're slapping God in the face. And you're saying, God, what you created is wrong. How can you say that? How can you say that you believe in God, you believe in a higher power that created us all and loves us all, but made a big mistake.And a lot of people's lives, how the two just do not go together and there's, it's so misunderstood. It's, it's such a hard [00:12:00] thing for me to wrap my head around why anybody would ever want to condemn anything that God created and say that it's bad or that it's wrong, or that it's sin when God created it.It doesn't make sense to me.De'Vannon: The inner it didn't never will make sense because it's nonsense cool. Kim: Right. Right. True.De'Vannon: But the inner working thing, there is arrogance because, and it's, and it's, and it's a, it is a very arrogant and high minded and condescending thing to go in, to text into to treat people that way. Because inherently what you're saying is my life is so great and your life is so not. Let's see, let's see the devil has deceived them as they think they're doing God's work, but they're not, but we've seen this in the Bible before many, many times like Paul, the apostle is the greatest example because and I think this is one of the bigger [00:13:00] reasons why God put the store in the Bible.I remember the Bible is only a snapshot of what happened so much more happened than what's in west recorded. These were just what God felt like should make the final. So fall before you turned it into Nepal is just like Republicans today. And all these conservative people who've have these high and mighty opinions on what other people should be doing.And he just cannot have it. He's insulted at the way they're living. We can't have none of this. And so he goes and gets the same. Hedron Sanhedrin is like the, the religious people who were the, the law of the land. So basically he's going to get government approval to persecute people like Texans, persecuting, women who want to get abortions and the people who help them it's the same damn thing.And so when he's doing it in the name of righteousness, just like the Republicans, they're supposedly doing it in the name of rights and on his way to Damascus to go and persecute more people. So he can force them to live the way he believes they should live. According to his interpretation of scripture.Jesus like, no [00:14:00] bitch, stop you doing too much. Kim: I'll blind defer a minute as a matter of fact, and really get your attention, right? De'Vannon: right? So. So this has all been written before that. So my message and my ministry is not to try to talk to idiots like that who are to cause there is no K nothing, but God and knock sense into people like that as has been demonstrated. But what I can do is help people to stop receiving negative messages from people like that and then hurting themselves because of it because we, until we enlightened and we ascend to the point that we do not let what other people say affect us, we let other, what other people say affect us.That requires growth and maturity and people are going to listen to other people, be the on social media, in pool pits, whatever kind of platform people give ear to people. And then people let what people say, change them until they grow enough to stop doing that. And so my job and my task is to[00:15:00] help the weakest among us, the people who feel the smallest among us to become independent spiritually, mentally.And so. Kim: Yeah, that's a big task and it's a beautiful one because there's not many people doing what you're doing and people need to hear. That, who they are as good and wonderful. And they've been beautifully and wonderfully made and to stop letting other people interfere with that.De'Vannon: That's a big task and I don't feel overwhelmed by it because as the Hebrew Bible says, power belongs to God. And that no matter how much we may plant water, you know, only gone can give the. So I don't have stress on me. Like how preachers do when they feel bad. If nobody receives the Lord in service on, on Sunday, they feel, they make a whole big deal of nobody stands up to receive Christ during the [00:16:00] benediction on Sunday, because they feel like it's a personal blow to their ego, that their message couldn't move one person to accept the Lord, but you don't really know what changes happen in people.You see that's about the preacher's ego. So I have enough sense. Thank God at this point in my 40 years to to just do what I do and sit back and see what God's going to do with the pressure isn't on me. Kim: Right, right. Yeah. That's good. And by the way, your 40 years are like somebody else's 80 years, you know, you have lived and not only have you lived, but you live to tell about it, you know, that your story helps other people and the things that, you know, and the way, you know, the things that, you know, affect people and help so many people, like, I just can't even imagine how many lives you've touched.De'Vannon: Well meet there. I haven't the foggiest, but I didn't know. It be like more, more, more, more. [00:17:00] So let's talk about Haiti. So in your book, love is you get into Haiti. You have an interesting. Kind of like love and hate emotional tango with Haiti's like you, you love it, but you hate it. You say once you've been there, it has a way of pulling you back in the book you state, I'm going to read a little excerpt real quick.It says flying over Haiti, like flying over Jurassic park. You see the lush mountains slowly rolling out until the gorgeous green Plains. And finally the Sandy friend of the turquoise CATA Cattabean, but you don't see the carnivorous monsters waiting to devour, whoever there's the land. What would tell me about the carnivorous monsters? Kim: It's tough. There it is. It is hard there. I it is like two steps forward, three steps back. Like anything that you, you try to do or anything you want to do. There are [00:18:00] roadblocks with every turn and and it's not so much saying like something that I don't like, you know, that, that I'm American, so I know better.And I've, you just listened to me. Your life could be so much better. It's not that it's that that the government is really not for the people. And so it's really against the people. There are people that make money on poverty, so they don't want to see a change. They don't want to see people elevate their lives.People live a healthier, better life, eating everyday, having a place to lay their head at night education. You know, the simple things in life that we all take for granted that don't exist for a whole lot of millions of people. It just in, in Haiti alone. And there are just these monsters that, that live to [00:19:00] devour anything good that is happening and step in the way of it.So that progress can be made. It's a tough place to work, a tough place to live.De'Vannon: I think It's interesting the way you worked, you know, tough stories like that. And the one about the Catholic non-health that I hope we have time to get to later into this book about love is because you basically took that scripture in first Corinthians 13 and broke it down and you took a, year of your life and you, and you tried it all out.Love is patient love is kind and, you know, you know, one would think hearing that is going to be a nice, you know, flowery book, all about just good love and good Skittles and fucking gummy bears like that, you know, but, but actually shit got real, you know, intermittently throughout the read. And so so Haiti, so when people think about Haiti, [00:20:00] a lot of people think about voodoo. Witchcraft Hutu and all of that, a very ignorant ass family member of mine. When he kicked you in Haiti had their, it was a recent earthquake, gone bless them. He said some stupid shit. And to which I shut him down immediately. As soon as he heard about the earthquake or whenever it was around him, he said, oh, well, let's tell of all of that voodoo. They have down there as if to say it is the people of Haiti's fault for receiving the earthquake. And I tell him after I flipped my, my imaginary blonde hair out of the way, you know, as you do what you, when you were about to open the library on a motherfucker.And I was like okay, you haven't been to Haiti, never. I know you haven't taken the time to pray for them ever. How dare you say something so negative and so presumptuous about these people and you're supposed to be this church going [00:21:00] person God-fearing and that's the best you can do.Kim: It's a, it's an ignorance. There's no doubt about it. You know, really, as you're saying that, I'm thinking, so does the same person if they're sitting next to somebody in church and that person receives a cancer diagnosis, are they saying well, it's because it's because of the sin in your life. It's because of that, you know, is that what they're doing?Because basically it's the same, right? They're condemning a whole nation, but it's the same thing as saying that if anything bad happens to anybody it's because, because of that, they brought it on themselves, is completely ignorant.De'Vannon: Well, this is anything about those of us in the two S LGBTQ plus community. We get HIV. They go, well, that's what you get for being gay, you know, but you know, the jokes is going to be on them because, you know, the Lord [00:22:00] said, you know, God said that that God is not mocked whatsoever, man. So that also will he read it?He said, if you, if you give. Receive mercy. But if you dish out judgment without mercy, that he said, you're going to get judgment without mercy. And so all of this being mean to people and stuff like that, it might make, make, make a person feel powerful on this plane of existence. But when you die, there is no currency.Like you cannot buy your way, angels and demons. Don't give a fuck about money or about titles or about buildings or about the things that we chase after in this earth. You know? And so the, the, the, we, we are a fool. If we put more stock into what we can gain in this earth, be it power or power over people, as opposed to being nice to people and showing love.You know, there's so many examples of that from the parable about the rich young ruler to the way the Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness and tried [00:23:00] to offer him all the kingdom of the world, you know, this is a vice of the devil to try to deceive us, you know, and it's, it's so like plain, but you know, the Lord doesn't open someone's eyes.They're not going to see it. So, so, so, so, so this ignorant.family member, he knows enough about Haiti, even in passing to know that, that there is a strong concentration of like a voodoo and Hoodoo there. So in your book, you write that nearly every Haitian practices and believes in God, and there is cultural, voodoo and good reasons for the ongoing existence of the religion. I want to read an article, a small article. This is. Reading tirade. I'm going to go on this interview because there's Hoodoo, there's a voodoo, there's the, there's a food Dawn, which I want to let you talk more about that. Cause, and then there's like witchcraft, there, there are [00:24:00] differences. And I had to really look this up to find this out.And even in the research of it, different websites, that slightly different things is almost feels like it's something that if you weren't like raised in it, you may not know exactly what the fuck it is you're talking about or unless you knew someone really close. So I'm going to read this and I'm interested how this compares with your personal experience living in Haiti.Now tell us how long, how much time total you think you've spent in Haiti. Kim: Oh, gosh. Probably all together. It would be in the years. Cause that for years I spent a portion of every month and 80 and then other times in 80. So I dunno, but a lot of spent a lot of time.De'Vannon: Okay, so, okay. So that was just bear with me for a second y'all and, you know, I love to read, so reading is fundamental as mama RuPaul would tell us. [00:25:00] Okay. And so in this I pulled, and this is going to go in the show notes. This is from a website called www dot difference between that net. And so All right here.Here we go. So who to invite, who may sound the same, but the terms of related opposites, both who do and vote or widely practice and share a similar elements and roots in Africa, particularly west Africa seem to come up in my research. Both are also products of mixed beliefs that include pagan traditions, ancient worship, and elements of European.However, the main difference between who doing the vote. It is that the ladder is actually an existing religion, practiced by people while the former is considered folk magic. Lulu as a religion is an organized institution with established practices like religious representatives or leaders, teachings, and religious services or rituals.Who do as folk magic lacks, this foundation organization, Vudu invokes the power of the low loss in the African gods and [00:26:00] DDS. However, who do practitioners invoke the low loss by using Catholic saints? Voodoo is practiced by non Roman Catholics while hoodoos practitioners are often Roman Catholics who use both the African concept of gods and the religious saints of Catholicism who do practitioners are also followers of spiritualism.The specific term ascribed to a voodoo practitioner is a food who songs well, who do practitioners are often referred to as a root doctors or healers? The Huda practitioner often sees who do as a sort of personal. That can help them or other people through their knowledge of herbs, minerals, animal parts, bodily fluids, and possessions.The magic can be used based on one's inclinations desires, interests, and habits who do, and its practitioners empower themselves by accessing the gods and other supernatural forces in order to bring improvement or declined to a person's life. With this variety of knowledge and power, a practitioner [00:27:00] can help a person, all aspects of life, including love, love, evil, and restraining enemies.Voodoo is the original religion while who is the result of religious persecution and suppression who do develop by adopting and blending some foreign beliefs and religion to hide. It's our African roots African origins, which were considered pagan and unacceptable in the society, largely dominated by Christians, aside from being a religion.Also a culture in a way of life who do often specialize only in magic powers and the benefits that the magic can bring, who can be practiced as a hobby and even an economic income or a charity act. There is also a difference in the places of influence of both voodoo and Hoodoo. Luda is popular and thrives in the former French colonies like Mississippi and Louisiana, while who is more popular in the Southern part of America.Additionally, who do it, who do was brought to the new world by African slaves and who to arrive through Haiti, a [00:28:00] former French colony voodoo though pure and more ancient is often compared to Hoodoo. Voodoo encompasses a variety of fields and societies such as culture, philosophy, art and music, heritage, language, medicine, justice, spirituality, and power who do on the other hand is just a fraction of all of this.And it's also more focused on the power and spiritual side than anything else. What do you think. Kim: Wow. I just learned a lot have to say, yeah it's it's such an interesting. 'cause I think, you know, earlier you were talking about Christianity and you're talking about how people sending in pews, so love Jesus yet they can down other Christians or condemn people's lives, condemn what God made people to be, you know, or, or, you know, just look for fault, look for fault.Look, look for ways to judge. Right. And so there's, but there's [00:29:00] this good side of them that loves you. And and hopefully we'll learn how to be better and better and better at, at being Jesus to other people and really understanding that. And so then here, you're talking about Hoodoo and voodoo that have elements of that as well.Right? Like there's, there's good. Or cultural there. It's not all just animal sacrifice and zombies it's there's, there's parts of it that are intertwined in culture and in the richness of of countries and origins. And I dunno, it kind of makes people who they are, but at the same time they can love Jesus in the midst of it.De'Vannon: Did you know anyone who practice either of these parts? Kim: Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. Voodoo. Yeah. Right. I do. I, I have had both [00:30:00] positive and negative experiences with Buddha. The positive things that I've seen have more to do with culture have more to do with, with when you are raised in this culture of voodoo. There are so many things like on, like I've got this really good friend Dr. Who is this incredible Haitian doctor who has explained a lot of it to me. And, and we walked by this tree one day and it's, I don't remember what they call the tree, but basically if two people are fighting against each other, you know, one believes they're right. The other one believes they are right.Then they both are supposed to go to this tree and, and state their, you know, how their rights states. Their message, whatever it happens to be. And that the roots of the tree will come around the feet of the one who's wrong. And that for some will not get out of there will not be able to leave the tree.So it's, you [00:31:00] know, their depth basically. So people don't want that. People believe that that will happen. But with this particular tree, this particular kind of tree, and they don't want that. So they're more apt to say, you know what? I was wrong, you know what I did make that story up. I don't want to die, you know?So, so they're, they're not going. Fight as much for their cause when they know that it's not true and it might take them to the tree. Well, you know, there's something to be said for that. Right. And so there's, there's a lot of that kind of thing that happens. And then at the same time one night I was sleeping outside, that's in my book. I was sleeping outside with the tarantula and the snakes and the Chupacabra is at the, whatever is lurking in 80. And heard the sound that will never get out of my head. And even though I didn't see it, I knew exactly what it was. Buddha drums were going in the [00:32:00] distance. And then I heard this, I heard a dog cry, not how will not bark that screech not, but a dog cry.And it was. Horrific. It was all a horrible sound to hear the dog you knew was in so much pain and so miserable. And I've never had heard that sound before. And what it was is they were getting a dog alive and that dog was crying. Well, I don't care if you're an animal activist or not, or if you kill flies or not, nobody should skin an animal alive ever.And and for that to be part of a religious practice is pretty counterintuitive. When you should love all of what God has created [00:33:00] and that to take an animal and make them suffer that way was horrible to hear horrible, to know that it was even happening.De'Vannon: Yeah, I I concur with how horrible that sounds. I wonder what was the purpose of the ritual? What were they trying to achieve?Kim: I don't know. I don't really know. I know that that rituals like that are not that common in Haiti. It's like, it's sort of like religious extremists. So for the most part patients the, the part of Buddha that comes into the life is more the cultural Ludo, the different beliefs, the, you know, where we have walking under a ladder is bad luck or breaking a mirror is seven years of bad luck or whatever.A black cat crossing your path. They have things like don't pick up a child from behind, or the child will never grow. Don't tell a mom what that baby's [00:34:00] beautiful. Cause then the baby was going to grow up ugly or, you know, or the tree is gonna go around your feet, you know, whatever. So it's more the cultural things that are the beliefs in Haiti most patients are not out in the middle of the night beating drums and skinning dogs alive.And I think a lot of times when there are things like that, it has to do with. And people putting curses on other people. And that's another thing that I witnessed in Haiti is, is whether there is truly a demonic curse on somebody or it is you believe that there's a denim demonic curse on you. It is as real as real can be.And I've known people who have died because there was a curse on them. And I'll never that, you know, whether it was Satan doing work or it was just because in their mind they believe so strongly in this curse that they [00:35:00] knew they were going to die. So they did, I don't know the answer to that for sure.But but that kind of stuff happens as well. So, you know, the voodoo dolls, the whatever, right? I mean, you have something against somebody, you go to a a voodoo priest and put a hex on him and put a curse on them and. They're for real it's scary stuff, right? Not good.De'Vannon: Very good.Kim: No.De'Vannon: So what was the you said you had positive and negative. What was the positive experience you had with. see.Kim: Are, there are a lot of beliefs that bind people together. They have people watch out for other people that you know, how we can be influenced by, by things that were taught or things that we believe. And, but it can be it can either be positive or negative [00:36:00] and positive influence, you know, it, it can be like when you're a kid and your dad says you do that to your sister, and I'm going to give you a weapon.You don't do it out of fear. Well, there's, there's, there are things like that. They happen that that they don't hurt out of fear of because of, you know, cultural beliefs things that would have happened to them if they were to do something. So that's not all bad. If it's born out of something That we don't understand, or maybe negative or maybe whatever, if with the ad result being a positive thing, it's, you know, kind of hard to weigh it out in your mind and think, well then is it okay?And I think that some of it is okay. Because I think then you grow to, and hopefully grow into a new understanding, but meanwhile or alerting [00:37:00] as you go, if that makes any sense whatsoever,De'Vannon: Absolutely. So the negative aspect of it for you, was it what you described or did someone put a rude or some sort of judging on you? Kim: I've never had the Appen. I can't wait to hear your personal story with voodoo. I have to say I, a resident, you told me you had one, I've been anxious to hear about it from Europe. Lips. So, yeah. Yeah, but as far as I know, nobody's ever put a curse on me,De'Vannon: I think, I think it's interesting how this has like, ties like the Catholic church and everything like that. So it's not the first time in reading this article that I've heard that a voodoo can be used for good and that people who do it also believe in God, certain people have access, you know, like into the spiritual [00:38:00] realm in order to be able to receive a, shall I say this to affect change in the physical plane?Communication with spirits. Now, whether that's your clairvoyant people, your profits, your prophetess, this, you know, different sorts of people have different sorts of spiritual inclinations access to the other realm and stuff like that. And it comes out in different ways. Be it some sort of spiritual reading or some sort of, you know, for those of us like me, who dream, you know, in different things like that, the angelic handwriting people do where their hand moves on its own or under the guidance of the holy ghost or an angel, whatever you choose to believe and what it looks like scribble to everyone else.But that person can read what it's saying and it's, and it's, and it's like the true, true fairs on adulterated. So it's just for all the mystique that revolves around the Catholic church, You know, they don't often, well, actually they never mentioned their potential [00:39:00] ties to voodoo, you know, you know, different things that I, but you know, when you, when I think about, you know, all the all the campus in the world, like the burn candles, all the time to all of these different things, then people and stuff like that.I think that it's true. You know, like with like the, like the, probably the ties there, I think where the people know it or not, because in the practices alluded to it and who do it in witchcraft, there were, they a lot of candle burning that happens. They shitload of candle burning that happens. And so. It could be that when somebody lights a candle to St.Jude or whoever, you know, you know, you're all Catholic and stuff would maybe do a little bit low due to.Kim: know, that's interesting. I've never really thought about that. I was raised Catholic and [00:40:00]actually have a deep what's that I actually have a deep appreciation for the Catholic church. I think clumping everybody together can be hard. Right. And putting everybody in, in a clump and, and really whether you're Catholic Baptist Lutheran, Jewish, Hindu, you're an individual.And it's your individual walk with it. That makes the difference. And I know. Many many, many incredible Catholics and mother Teresa for one, not that I know where cause she's passed on, but she was an incredible, wonderful woman who did incredible things. And so when we clump people together, I think we have to be a little bit careful just because there are wonderful people and there are [00:41:00] difficult people in, in everything.De'Vannon: Yeah, I don't, I don't mind the people in the Catholic church. I'd I'd mind the institution that is the Catholic church. So like, I look at it as a way that can, that tends to damage people. I, to give a shit, if someone's a Catholic or not, like, and it's just like, it's just like how I'm not trying to say.Hard-headed hateful people. My, my, my ministry. So the people they heard, I'm not trying to change the Catholic church or argue with them. My ministry is to help undo the negative mental constructs that people leave the Catholic church with. And so, so when I say, I don't care where the Catholic church, I mean, I don't care for the Catholic church, not its parishioners and not as people, you know, they don't know no better, you know, or, you know, they're setting, they're being abused by them.Well, if some shit, sometimes literally if you an alter boy, [00:42:00]Kim: Right.De'Vannon: you know, then, you know, you know, and otherwise mental and emotional, you know, so, so yeah, I don't have any problem with the people, but the, the institutions. So yeah. Let me clarify that. If anybody, if I ever say like, fuck this religion or that religion on my show, I just mean the religion itself.The people who administer it, but not the attendees and stuff like that. You know, that's, that's a whole other different thing. And my main complaint against the Catholic church is how they insist upon having like a person. In between God and, and whoever the parishioner or the congregant, the church goer is I don't believe in confessing sentence to a human.I don't believe in kissing the Pope's ring. I don't believe in setting anybody else up on that pedestal because that was the whole point and purpose of Jesus coming here to remove a man from the equation. And I feel like Catholicism puts man. [00:43:00] In the equation and that does doesn't make sense to me. And I've preached spiritual independence. I want people to go to God for themselves when you need forgiveness, get it right now. Not once you make it.to a fucking confessional booth. When you need, if you want to do community, you can give it to yourself at home. God is accessible to us. These as near as the air, we breathe, we have access to him around the clock, 24 7 setting, right up in our living room with us.We do not need a church. We do not need people. Now, if you just feel like you need to have that great, wonderful, and many people will start out that way, but there is an overdependence on, on, on institution, religion and people that cripples people's spiritual growth. Kim: Oh, my gosh. I wish I had, well, this is being recorded. That's a good thing. Cause I love the way you just put that. Thank you for that. Cause it's, it's so true that, you know, it's the institutions that hurt us [00:44:00] and like what the Catholic church did with the altar boys is just a crime above crimes and continue.And unfortunately, and, and is for any institution to allow things like that to continue is unfathomable. Like, Y I it's, it's really sad, so I totally get what you're saying. And I totally agree with you. You're right on going back to your 80 years of wisdom.De'Vannon: Right. And so I don't make allowances for organizations like that anymore. I used to be. When I tend to churches, I would see some shit to make me raise an eyebrow and I'd go, well, no, one's perfect or not perfect, but no, I don't. They preach too bold of a message. Be it Catholic churches, Lakewood church, like who I used to be a part of it before I got kicked out of there or wherever like you, like, you exist on the financial backings of the people who you heard, [00:45:00]know, and so hell to the, no, like these in congruency, you can not be fucking the shit out of all of these altar boys and the priest who gets caught and his ability.You just move him to another Paris where he can fuck more Altuve boys. Like that, that tells me that the institution is rotten to its core, it's corrupted and that the parishioners are. So they just believe they need to have it so much that they just keep going and supporting it anyway. But I believe any source of abuse must because.There's no way in hell. If I was married to a man, I would let him abuse my child and just be like, okay, well you're pretty much good. So I'll stay with, Kim: Right, right. You're 80% good. Just 20% bad. So therefore, right. Yeah. No, you're you're right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.De'Vannon: that's a whole other interview about why we allow ourselves to be subjugated. They're subjected to religious abuse from churches and institutions, [00:46:00] because we feel like we need to stay there. I'm speaking now to not just people who stay in Catholic churches or other abusive religions, but people who are not straight, who attend churches that have a doctrine against their lifestyle.I know gay people who do this. I'm like, they're going to church. And they're like, well, I'm just not going to page two. That sermon that's telling me, I'm going to go to hell, but that's having an impact on your subconscious mind and everything like that. It's hurting your spirit. When somebody tells you something's wrong with you, why would you support that church and still go there because your parents went there.You're afraid. If you stop going, you're going to burn up and go to hell. You know what? Again, if somebody was abusing you verbally, you wouldn't stay in a relationship with them. Why are you going to this church and letting them talk down? You like this. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. But I think that a lot of people are raised in a family where we're churches that important that, that if you don't go on Sunday, something's wrong. You [00:47:00] know, if you don't go Sunday morning, Sunday night was the night, you know, whatever something's wrong. And and your relationship with God should have nothing to do with what building you're in.De'Vannon: Preach it to a sitter, Kim: Yeah.De'Vannon: but since we're talking about the church bullshit, I'm going to go ahead and talk about the Catholic non now is going to save this for last, but in your book, you wrote nuns are scary ruler on knuckles, kind of scary. The kind of scary that makes you sit up straight, turning all your homework and not talk during class three critical things to know in a non-classroom or chewing gum is like a checkout.You, it gets cut. A messy desk is the devil's playground. And if a sister, meaning a nun tells you to jump, you don't ask how high without raising your hand first. Kim: Yeah.De'Vannon: And so. Girl I read through when I was reading that just emotions of fear, you know, prevailed, you know, came upon me and I'm looking at, okay, they're instilling [00:48:00] fear into people in order to dominate them, even when you were in school as we halfway in.But, but, but the Hebrew Bible says that God has not given us a spirit of fear. And so the same reason, you know, the same reason why I left the, the, like the alcoholism crystal method, like the whole anonymous drug movement is because I realized it was a fear based program. And that is in congruent with the word of God, because he told us not to be afraid.And so when I read this, I'm like, okay, these people, these kids are in school. These nones are like fucking Hitler or Vladimir Putin, whichever, whichever dictator you prefer. And they're like afraid that they'll like move or breathe. That's not good for anybody, especially not in those young developmental ages, but what do you think about this?Who you are now looking back on this and would you let a kid that you would have be in the same situation? Kim: Yeah. I mean, I think [00:49:00] back in the day it was considered respect maybe, but, but it's not respect, you know, there is a fear it's different. It was for me, my life experience completely different having a non stand in front of a classroom than having just a woman stand in front of a classroom. And and yeah, we were all afraid of the nuns.I know that that's such a generalization because I'm sure that many people have had great experiences with, of. Nuns. And so, you know, I don't want to put it out there. The all nuns, I was scary and bad, but my personal experience is I was scared to death of sister, Mary Lewis. And everybody, everybody was like it was definitely a fear for her.De'Vannon: And if you, and, and if you were to have a kid at that age, would you allow them to be in this sort of situation? Kim: I would [00:50:00] not, I would not, no, I would not. I screwed my kids up enough. That would just events go on about even more so. Yeah. No, I don't think it's necessary. I think there are ways to learn English without it being fear-based De'Vannon: I think it really hit you on the knuckles Kim: They would not me because I was too afraid to ever get in trouble, so I never got hit on the knuckles, but yet yeah, they, they would, yes.De'Vannon: physically abused the students. Kim: There was capital or corporal punishment, whatever it's called spanking spanking was definitely a a thing for sure. And with a paddle and fortunately I never went down that road either, because again, I was too afraid to do anything wrong to have that happen. So, but yeah, definitely physical, physical things definitely happened. But you know it was just common back then, [00:51:00] you know, I, there was a even in the public schools, they used to spank kids, which how demeaning and demoralizing. Right. So fortunately that's gone on, but but yeah, no, there was definitely a fear. You, you did what they told you to do for you.De'Vannon: Yeah, they'd be, they'd be people in my school and growing up in the hood, you.know, I would get beat at home with belts and stuff like that. You know, nobody should be hitting anybody period, period to the T at the end, it's not justified. Kim: Right. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. You know, I think it's one thing when there's a three-year-old, that's just kind of being rebellious and doing what they're not told to do to just kinda, you know, not spank them, but maybe just let them know whatever you need to do to let them know what they're doing is wrong.And that, you know, won't be tolerated. [00:52:00] Like, you know, you have to be able to discipline your children, but yeah. Yeah. It's it's not good. I agree. Not good. Never in school. Never, never, never. De'Vannon: Never, never, ever. And so let me circle back. So I had mentioned witchcraft, I'm gonna read a definition of witchcraft. So witchcraft is magic spelled with a K and not religious. Anyone can be a witch, but not all of them are Wiccan, dualism, polytheistic, and monotheistic, meaning you a worship. Many gods are just one God being a, which is not about religion.It's about the craft of magic. And so I feel like some, the Vudu who do witchcraft have some sort of intersectionality at some. But at the same time, they have their own unique characteristics. Now witchcraft seems to be the most extreme of them all because it's not tied to like a belief in a higher power, which crowds is all about what [00:53:00] you can do.And so what I think happened to me when I was a teenager, Was was, was, was more on the realm of witchcraft. So what happened was this guy, I was 15. I was the alter boy and not at a Catholic church. I was at a Pentecostal church and that was just the title. Cause I sat on the alter, probably the only alter born Pentecostal church history.My pastor was just unique and I was her assistant and I was called the alter boy. And this guy was the choir director. He was like 21, 22 or something like that in that, in that age range. And so he had a fixation on me. You know, he approached me, we ended up like kissing and establishing a sort of relationship.So yes, totally inappropriate. But I'm 15. I don't know. All I know is this guy is hot and he's paying me attention. So what do I need to do to get more of this attention? And so at some point he manages to obtain the. A windbreaker from me, which he [00:54:00] didn't want to give back. And I later on realized why, because he was going to use it in his ceremony or his ritual.And I started having us at first, I started smelling like this cologne that he would wear his, his spirit would come around me. It would manifest itself as is in the frame where the fist cologne people have said, this sort of thing happens, say when their grandmother or relative dies, sometimes I would just be setting down and they'll just catch a whiff of a fragrance that they associate with them out of nowhere, seemingly.Okay. I think that's happened enough for most people to agree that that's a thing. And so, but this person was still alive. And so, and I'm just sitting at my house. He's never. around me that I'm smelling his cologne. Now I started having dreams about him every night. Not some nights every night. Every night and sometimes they're good dreams.Sometimes they're terrible, chaotic nightmares. I felt my bed shaking and stuff [00:55:00] like that. Like extra says shit. We go on a trip to Mexico and he's with the church and everything like that. And he's trying to have sex with me and I'm like on the fence about it, it didn't happen. He gets mad and he like totally changes in terms of this whole monster. At this point I get like more confused than anything. We get back the whole thing. It's a whole thing. The pastor, my pastor of the church, the head pastor, not his wife, but the pastor of the church of course preaches a sermon against homosexuality the first Sunday after this happens as they do.And so. He also called us into his office and, you know, read us for filled and was telling us we can't be doing, you know, this gay shit and everything like that. And so on and so forth. And so after this my dreams with him got even worse. Oh. And then he also had a female. I think she was female [00:56:00] fiance in California who moved to church that I didn't know about during the months that he was dating me and courting me and stuff like that.So I go to a counseling session with my female pastor who was also a prophetess high clairvoyant. She has like all the gifts and everything like that. And so she starts digging into what's going on and she's explaining to me like, you know, he's burning candles and stuff like that. And I think he used the candle call that in tranquil, which I didn't learn about this until years ago when I started to delve more into this, the in tranquil camp.Since it goes and it finds a wandering spirit. That's able to cross it between the worlds and it's in an enlist, the services of this, of the spirit to go in vex, the person who is the object of your affection and the spirit will take all piece from them until that person comes and BS with you. And so I was miserable for about like six months after the whole Mexico incident.Whenever I was awake, I smelled [00:57:00] his odor whenever, while I was asleep, I dreamt of him. I couldn't escape him no matter where I went. And and my pastor was telling me, well, he's got you under a spell and what he was trying to do. And he was successful at it. He wanted to do you want to have me all to himself?And so he took my soul and he basically ran off with it. And then when we got into the argument in Mexico and we had a break, if I could get. It tore us apart, but since he had my soul and I was trying to get away from him, which she said, was it like it tore my soul in my heart felt like it felt like a burning in my chest.Like if someone took an Exacto knife and just went all Edward Scissorhands slash on it, and it felt like a searing, like molten lava was like pouring out of like this chest cavity. It was like the worst pain I've ever felt in my life. I still feel it. Like, if I think about it, I can still feel, it was just like searing.The, my veins was telling me, I couldn't understand how a person could have access to somebody else without that [00:58:00] person's permission, you know, I'm 15, I'm sure she's weighing, what can I explain to him? You know, with a 15 year old brain, you know, and stuff like that, I'm thinking the whole thing was my fault and everything like that.If he's like, no, you know, he out here, you know, the whole relationship wasn't supposed to happen. So. The, the whole trying to possess me and everything. And so he wanted me all to himself and everything like that. And it took about it took six months of torture was so fucking miserable. Like my grades suffered everything.I was just in hell. They innovate out. This was going into my 10th grade year. It was the summer that princess Diana died because he died and we were in Mexico. I remember that because it was on the news. And then one Sunday morning I was sitting at my kitchen table doing like homework, math problems or whatever.And I felt like the weight and the burden of this whole [00:59:00] spell. He had me under lift off of me. It was like, it was like such a relief that I had to get up and like go for a walk, like a walk that I hadn't been able to take in over six months. And my grandmother was just hanging out at the end of the driveway.I just, I just walked down there and just looked at her and I just, I knew that everything had changed. And I don't know if my evangelists, you know, my pastor's wife who was my counselor, was somewhere at the church, praying for me, that was Sunday. And we weren't at church of what she had told me that she would work to break the spell from off of me because she had that kind of power.But she said that it would take time. And I was like, you know, I want it to be quick. You know why we can't just do it now. And she was just explained to me, you know, some things take time, some stuff God does quickly. Some stuff takes time. It's just the way it works. And so the deliverance that not come overnight or quickly, [01:00:00] like I wanted it to because I was miserable.I just really wanted to just, I just couldn't find happiness anywhere. And so, but from that Sunday morning on, I never smelled as fragrance. Again, I never had a dream about him again in this. The spell was broken. I was able to get my jacket back from him, eventually reluctantly argument, really? And when I did, I couldn't wash his odor out of it, no matter how much I tried and ended up having to put in trash anyway.And he was using that as I was, it was, it was explained to me by vandals Nelson to feel close to me. And I'm sure it strengthened his spell. He never allowed me into his house or anything like that. You know, that I was able to peek Intuit one time. I was with somebody who went to go over and visit him for like a moment.And I could see like an alter candles thing going on, but I was never permitted in there. And so. [01:01:00]Kim: Wow. Wow. I, you know it had to be. So much deeper than, you know, like a broken leg might dig six months to heal, you know, like an injury that gives you pain might take a while to heal, but this wasn't just a part of your body. This was your soul. This was your whole being it. I can't even imagine the feeling at of course your grades would suffer.I would think your relationships with other people's suffering friendships, you know, whatever. I would think anything that you did would suffer when, when it's so all encompassing.De'Vannon: Yeah. It was like a, just being in the middle of a tornado. Just couldn't go anywhere. There's no, there's no escaping it. But you know, the God be the glory for his [01:02:00] mighty hand and his outstretched arm, because when he got ready, just like the children of Israel, they didn't come out and they wanted to, they had to wait until the appointed day, the appointed time.And when that time came, there was nothing that could, that could stop my delivery. Now this man, he was pure evil. He died a few years later. I thought it was cancer at the time, but because plus schools and shit broke out all over him and he was bent over on a cane a young fit, athletic, no body fat, you know, six pack, all of that, but he struggled up and died.I think he was buried at the age of 24 and I found out, you know, that he had aids and he was running around trying to intentionally spread it to as many people as he could so he could kill them. Kim: oh my wow. What a, what a legacy, goodness. Oh yeah. That. But sad. I feel bad for him. You know, it was evil, obviously what he was doing, but [01:03:00] what happens in a person's life that makes you like that?De'Vannon: Well for that?and understand from what my evangelists, evangelists, Nelson Jesus, she was my, my pastor and I was her assistant, my spiritual counselor, the prophetess, the clairvoyant, when she was explaining to me with web, when people would come to her who have gotten the HIV, she said they either have a very angry.Sometimes they have an angry reaction and they blame everyone else and they get really pissed off about it. You know, when I got HIV, I caved in and blamed myself and then I became recluse and withdrew from people. Some people go the opposite direction and they're all like, you know, fuck everyone. I'm gonna take everyone down with me.Damn it. You know? It evokes a response from people. And so when people are like, oh, you can just take the medication forward and fix it true. But you got to get over the mental health hurdle first that comes with having your body invaded with something that, you know, you can't get rid of rid of Kim: Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty [01:04:00] heavy. It's pretty big stuff, right?De'Vannon: it still to this day. And then everybody makes it over that mental health comes first, you know, that has to be addressed first, but we get to the medication. And so, so that's what happened. I go into detail even further about that in my, in my memoir, which I just, I emailed you a copy of it. It's finished.Finally. I'd have sent you a copy just a few minutes ago. Kim: Oh, thank you. Thank you.De'Vannon: And and so and so, and so, yeah, so let's, let's talk, go back to Haiti for just a second. I wanted to know. Tell me about your rays of hope international, your nonprofit. I need you.to, I need you to plug that. Kim: Sure. Yeah, it's a, it's a partnering organization. So we work with people in their own country, but I have a passion, a vision and mission to do something, to help people in their own country. So they understand the culture, they understand the language, they understand the need and they [01:05:00] just need somebody to walk alongside, not telling them what to do, but seeing what support they need.So sometimes it's a business plan. Sometimes it's you know, some startup funding, it can be equipment or supplies that they need a building they need build whatever happens to be, to get going, and then always with a plan for self-sustainability. So they're not always chasing dollars and they're able to continue the work that they feel that they're led to do.That's right.De'Vannon: I'm glad that you were able to find a way to be a permanent presence, you know, not just in Haiti, but in other countries too, and that you were able to overcome the governmental obstacles. Kim: Right, right. I mean, and every country you have to do that. I mean, there's governmental obstacles everywhere and some much tougher than others. And so you just kind of try to fly under the radar and get the work done. Cause [01:06:00] governments are hard to fight sometimes.De'Vannon: True. True, true, true, true. I know what I want to say. I wanted to say something else about the witchcraft thing. So I wanted to be transparent about that story because sometimes people have strange things happen to them. They think they're going crazy and difficult to go to like a mental health provider and be like, thinks of one has a food dog with my face on it.And they're fucking with me, you know? Cause you don't know if you're going to get admitted to the psychiatric, depending on who, who the mental health person is. And so, so then cause other people besides that guy does this, like I was at a store in new Orleans and you know, voodoo and witchcraft are big in new Orleans, you got booboo shops and shit.And I was getting candles and stuff like that to protect myself. So you can burn like say white candles. You can use like white bars of soap, olive oil soap to, to shield yourself from spells and different things. Like. [01:07:00] And I was asking her like what she does for work, which is a question I do not ask people anymore because I realized what a shallow and superficial question it is.And no one cares. They're just going to judge you by your occupation. Or it's just pointless banner. I ask people other questions when I meet them. But at this point I hadn't evolved to that level. And I asked this girl, oh, what does she do for work? And she was like, oh, you know, you know, general destruction spells started to break people up and stuff like that.She thought I was asking her like, what sort of witchcraft work that she do, because it's referred to like that, you know, like what kind of work, you know, you're going to work on somebody, you know, try to kill them, get them to lose a job or to make the move. And it's called working on people or And so, so she just said it as casually as the sky is a blue, she just, he just runs around breaking up relationships and shit, because there's, there's certain like candles and stuff, destructions that are designed to break up, to control a dominate.So you have you know, different aspects of it. And so it happens more regularly than you might think. You don't have to be in Haiti or in west Africa [01:08:00] or new Orleans or none of that. You could be anywhere in this earth. This shit is common. And then the people who make these witchcraft products ship them globally.So. So be careful who you run off with. I'm not saying run around afraid and peeping around the corners and everything like that, but you do need to know your friends and your associates and shit like that because people have practices that you might not think that they're doing when you're not around them.And so, but if strange things started happening, it would manifest like, say confusion coming out of nowhere in your relationship. Maybe you're great with your partner one day and one day you're not, it could be that somebody don't want you all to be together. Sometimes people, you might have confused and come up on your job and shit like that and stuff like that, you know, you know, so just to just, and how do you protect yoursel

INTRODUCTION: Why Love? A couple of years ago, I heard about a man who committed to living like Jesus for an entire year. Wow! That's some commitment. I imagined the transformation that would undoubtedly happen. To find that joyful peace, or is it unwavering grit, insightful compassion, or humble adoration? Whichever way, each way, in all ways, life would never be the same.  I thought about how I would approach that challenge. How would I know that I was truly living like Jesus? Then it hit me; John says God is love. So to live like Jesus would be living love. But what is love? And how would I live love while crossing cultures with one foot on U.S. soil and the other in places like Haiti, where love is both obviously abundant and seemingly scarce, challenging and effortless simultaneously?  Not wholly unfamiliar, just listening to music, reading books, and sitting through many sermons, I have learned a thing or two about love. I know that it is universal, timeless, and ageless. It is a feeling, a choice, a given. It is all-encompassing, enduring, and everlasting. Love conquers all, never fails, and keeps us together. But it hurts, gets lost, and takes time. There are love bugs, love seats, and love boats. There are love notes, love songs, and love birds. Love is a dare, a game, a language. You can be lovesick, loveless, and lovely. You can fall in love, be addicted to love, would do anything in the name of love, playing the game of love with the power of love.You can't hurry it or buy it and don't know if it will be there tomorrow. Yet love is all you need. They say love the one you are with, and find the love of your life because love wins. There's even a “Love Chapter” in the Bible. We've heard the “Love Chapter” (1 Corinthians 13:4-8) read and expounded on many times (mostly at weddings). It's one of the most memorized, admired, and well-known passages in all Scripture, even by non-church folk. We've heard this famous passage so often our eyes kind of glaze over. “Love is patient; love is kind, does not env…” Yeah, yeah. We know how this goes.        But what is love, really?  So John says God is love. Bob the Tomato says God is bigger than the boogie man, Godzilla, and the monsters on T.V. So the love that is God must be way bigger than my love of black licorice and movie theater popcorn.  Jesus named the number one law of all of the laws, and there were tons. Leviticus, the third book of the Torah and the Old Testament, lists most of the 613 rules of conduct. He could have picked any one of them. Murder is pretty heavy. Stealing isn't exactly harmless. Adultery can destroy families in a hurry. Lying about someone could get you and them into a heap of trouble. But with no hesitation, he picked the one that sat right in between “don't carry a grudge or seek revenge” and “don't mate two different kinds of animals.” (Leviticus 19:18) Jesus basically said, “That's an easy one. Love God and love people.” Just like that. There is no exception clause, no fine print, no room for interpretation, love people, all of them, every single one.+           Even deeper, Paul said that you can't go wrong if you love people because love is the fulfillment of the law. Fulfillment, like an Amazon order, picked out of the warehouse, loaded, delivered, fulfilled. It's complete, buttoned-up, stick a fork in it, done. All of it, all 613 laws, if you love with the same love that God is, you don't break any. So WWJD (what would Jesus do) is interchangeable with WWLD (what would love do).  It makes sense then if you understand love than live love, your life would change. If that love got a little contagious, the whole world could be a better place.  I will figure out love one word at a time, taking 1 Corinthians 13 to heart and feet. Live it, learn it, love it. It is quite a list, a list that I think I already know, but somehow I think I have a lot to learn.  “Love is patient; love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.  Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.  Love never fails.” I Corinthians 13: 4-8 N.I.V. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      The Benefits of Black Licorice ·      Becoming a Widow·      Success and Failures·      Surviving Cancer·      The Beauty of Death·      Leaving Medical Diagnoses on Voicemails·      The Pain of Mammograms·      Can't Pray the Gay Away·      The Difference Between God and the Church·      The Pressures of Living a Lie·      A Spotlight on Haiti  CONNECT WITH KIM: Website & Books: https://www.KimSorrelle.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3vRFWXfFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/loveisbykim/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimsorrelle/?hl=enTwitter: https://twitter.com/Kim_SorrelleLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3tEzK24 KIM'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      All You Need Is Love (The Beatles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7xMfIp-irg  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      Black Licorice (consult your doctor):https://www.webmd.com/diet/black-licorice-health-benefits#1 ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hey everyone. And welcome to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. I'm so thankful to have you with me again this week. God bless each. And every last one of you, Kim Sorrelle is my guest. Today. She is the author of two beautiful books and she has an incredible story. This is a woman has become like a sister to me and I am so excited to present her to the world.And in today's episode, we're going to talk about the benefits of black licorice. She's going to [00:01:00] tell us about how she became a widow. We're going to talk about the beauty of death and why doctors should not leave negative medical news on voicemails. Now, cam has a special love in our heart for Haiti.And so we spend quite a bit of time talking about Haiti, and then we get into a little bit about a voodoo, take a close, listen to this episode, and I hope you get a lot out of.Good morning. Good morning, Ms. Kim. So REL, welcome to the sex drugs and Jesus pod has today in the name of God. How are you doing woman?Kim: I am doing fabulous and I am so grateful to be here. And how are you?De'Vannon: I am fan fucking tastic van fucking tabulates and scrum daily. I'm shit. If I do say so myself, so I'm so happy to have you with me today. [00:02:00] I do believe that you're going to breathe in a shitload of value to my beautiful audience out there. Kevin likes to keep it real everybody. And so here we go. She's an author.She's an entrepreneur. He's a speaker. She's a cancer survivor and T the lover of black liquid. I'm going to give you a moment to talk about like your own history and your own way and adjust the second. But I wanted to dig into this a lover of black licorice, because never before what I've read into somebodies headlines on their profiles and things like that, that they mentioned any sort of candy or derivative of a, of a root or plant Loeser what licorice is.So I want you to tell me what is so special. What's so damn special about this black licorice, that it was worthy to go into your heading.Kim: How does a good question? Well, I feel like more people don't like black licorice than do like black licorice. And I can't imagine my life without it. It's just one of [00:03:00] those things I grew up. My, my favorite aunt, my aunt Rita, my great aunt always had black licorice in her pantry and she ran a home for old folks and I love going there and helping her out.And at the end of the day, having a piece of black licorice as a treat and I that's. Where am I love started for black licorice and it continued on. Apparently De'Vannon: Did you know, my dear that there are health, health benefits to black licorice. Kim: tell me. De'Vannon: So when I came across this, on your profile, it stood out to me. And so then I went digging around and shit as I do. And And so what I found, and I'm going to put a link of this link to web MD in the show notes of people can go and look it up, but it says it can help.It can help digestion blacklist by the laser. It's gonna help your digestive system work more [00:04:00]effectively. It can ease symptoms from indigestion, heartburn and ulcers. Black licorice extracts have been linked to a reduction in the bacteria that calls cause ulcers. And I could've sworn, I read something about this.Can have some sort of like maybe cancer-fighting qualities too. And so considering your history with cancer, which I'm going to let you tell us about, I was wondering if maybe a Lord was watching out for you. Early on in life before you got your diagnosis, because sometimes we have a taste for things that are going to heal us, and we don't necessarily realize it at the time.We just know we keep craving that for some reason. And so I'm wondering if perhaps you were drawn to that in order to help you overcome, you know, what you would be fighting later on in life.Kim: Interesting. Yeah. I love the idea of that. I have to say. Cause that's true. Like you hear about women that are expecting babies and crave certain things because there's [00:05:00] iron in it or there's something in it that, that they need or the baby needs or people in general. So yeah, couldn't possibly be for sure.De'Vannon: Yeah. So I'm just gonna read this real quick, then I'll hush and let, I was just so fascinated by this cause I'm a, I'm a licensed massage therapist and I like to get into natural healing and stuff like that. I have a shitload of essential Earls and everything like that. And so anything natural that we can do for ourselves, you know, sometimes the remedy that we need are like right there on the shelf in the house.And we don't know, you know, Kim: Right, right. De'Vannon: you know, then we go run into doctor via pumped, full all these drugs. Sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes it's not. So I'm just gonna read this here. So it says a substance extracted from licorice root little cow cone dash a has been shown to have antitumor activity and acute leukemia breast and prostate cancer cell lines by lowering the amount [00:06:00] of BCL two, whatever the fuck that is a drug resistant protein excessive amounts of this protein are frequently associated with these cancers.Licorice is actually a plant and is found in like a couple of different countries in the world. And then that's how they make that black licorice candy. But it's not all sugar. It's bitter. Isn't that like the sweetest thing on the shelf. So yeah. I want you to know that and everybody else let's get some licorice y'allKim: There you go, you just see a level bunch of people. De'Vannon: so, so tell us about like what you, whatever you want to say about your history, and then go ahead and segue into the cancer story.Kim: Sure. Yeah. So I was going to be the first woman. That was my plan. And so I had my life laid out before me and knew where I was going to go. And when I was going to do, and then may of my senior year in high school, this man walked through the door [00:07:00] and I fell head over heels in love with him after swearing, I would never get married and have children because I had my life laid out.And 10 days after I met him, I asked him if he'd marry me. And he said, yes. And then we got married a little bit less than a year later. And so I was 17 when I got engaged in 18. When I got married, he was 22 when we got married. And he was the love of my life. I mean, I felt like we dated for a whole bunch of years.A couple years later, the baby started coming. I've got five kids and 11 grandkids and So big family. I know it's fun. It's so fun. And I love taking them to Disney world. They have this place on earth and they do sell like licorice at this new world. So that's good too. So, yeah, and I started my first business right out of high school.I'm not, intrepreneur sure. I've had businesses my whole life and and I run a nonprofit organization. I coached [00:08:00] varsity volleyball for 25 years and just whatever, been active and busy. And I've written a couple of books. De'Vannon: You know what? That's not a bad life. Kim: No, It's a great life.De'Vannon: It's not a bad life at all because you've, you've taken risks. You understand failure. You tell me about, tell me about at any point in your life where you failed at something, maybe it was a business, something that you try to do, and it didn't work out. Cause I wanted to illustrate because clearly you didn't get discouraged and you kept trying, and business can be a bitch to get into all the obstacles, the paperwork, the documentation.There's not really a clear path. And in, so sometimes we fail and we don't try again. So tell me about a time that you tried to do something. It just didn't work out.Kim: Yeah. Well, there's more than one of those stories to tell. I'll tell you that. I tried different businesses over the years. I was in business [00:09:00] on some businesses with my, my brother and my dad and some businesses alone and whatever. But we one business that didn't work out for me was fine dining. I have a golf course and and banquet facilities. So we do events, but we had fine dining. And that was, that's a tough road, man. Anybody in the restaurant business, I have so much respect for. I've been in the catering business for years, you know exactly how many people are coming, what time they're coming and what they're eating.Restaurant business is a whole different game, even staffing and knowing what food to have on hand and everything else. And there's so much loss of food and you can overstaff, or you can understand it. It's the, there's such a science to it. And to have one standalone restaurant and survive is amazing miracle hats off to those people.A lot of times you need more than one to [00:10:00] share expense and true income coming in. So yeah, that's that's, that's somebody, I have a whole lot of respect for people in the restaurant. This. De'Vannon: Yeah, I've been a server I've worked in restaurants. I've worked for catering companies. Yeah, it's, it's a bitch of an industry to be in, especially in the states because of the attitude that, that is here. You know, this may be the last country on the planet that actually still tip servers rather than just paying them, being fucking done with it.So I've wanted to highlight that because you know, with the pandemic and everything, people, you know, the world has. Like a sun has arisen over us. And I'm thankful for the disruption of the Corona virus, because it's shaken a lot of people up out of their bullshit as lie of a life that they had told themselves they were.But what I'm saying is that they were living a life that they really weren't happy with in the first place, they were lying to themselves and [00:11:00] accepting that as reality, they weren't happy. So the Corona virus took them away from the delusion long enough to get a new perspective. And then so a lot of people didn't go back to the bullshit.However, just because they're on a new path, doesn't mean it's going to be all gravy and flowers. You know, Dick sucking and all of that, you know, this is going to be some fuckery along the way. And so what, what, what words of encouragement that you say to people who are new to entrepreneurship, especially in this time that we live with so many people are, are trying new things and it doesn't matter if it's, you know, starting your own Lyft or Uber business, you're still an entrepreneur, you know, what would you say.Kim: I would say, do not give up. Don't give up. Don't give up. No, there been so many stories, story after story of people who their first try failed for second, try failed. Their third thing failed, you know, whatever in the publishing world. There's one of the books that has sold more books than [00:12:00]practically any other book in the world, maybe any other book in the world is the chicken soup for the soul series.If you've heard of it, I'm Jack Canfield and they had 144 rejections before they got a publisher to publish their book 144 and they have sold 650 million books. 650 million books. That's Yeah.no kidding. And so, so you look at that and go, well, what if they would've stopped at 1 42. And just given up, right.Harry Potter was rejected 11 times before publisher said yes. What if she wouldn't? What if JK Rowling's would have stopped that number 10 and just didn't put it out there anymore. Just don't give up. Don't believe in what you're doing. Work your butt off. Realize that entrepreneurship is the hardest road you sometimes I think people look at it and go, oh gosh, you're [00:13:00] your own boss?True. Oh gosh, you can set your own hours. Yes. But your own hours are more than anybody else. That's going to work for you. And you have to do everything alone at first, you know, like it takes up a long time to be in business before you take a vacation. So it's it's the hardest work you'll ever do.The most rewarding work you'll ever do. And really you, your name, your own price, you know, however hard you decide to work, whatever you decide to put into it is what you're going to get at. De'Vannon: Correct. And I couldn't agree more from having my own businesses and everything like that. It's bittersweet in that aspect. Like you do call your own shots. So it depends on what your value system is. Like. I value freedom. I love to come and go as I please. And I don't like being told what to do.Therefore, even though I got to go out there and hustle and make my own money every day, [00:14:00]my mental health is in a better state because I would rather the pressure of having to make my own money than to have a dumb ass boss telling me what to do and dumb ass coworkers, fucking up my vibe. Kim: So the military was great for you then. De'Vannon: the military and suck my fucking Dick.But yeah, I was 17 when I went to the military. I don't recommend that. You don't recommend it at all. Nothing. Since we mentioned Ms. JK Rowling, I always like to say, fuck you, JK Rowling for for being a damn turf, you know, and tariff is a trans exclusionary radical feminist because he has those strong views against like in like, you know, people, women who transitioned because he's like, I'm a real woman.Those bitches are not. So she's. Kim: I didn't know that about her. De'Vannon: Oh, God Google it. This bitch has been being bragged for filth and by the gay community of the two S LGBTQ plus community [00:15:00] for quite a while now, because she has liked certain posts and say a certain things, especially on her damn Twitter, I think so we love her forgiving us, Harry Potter.We love her for giving us the gay Dumbledore that was at a cute little sneak attack that she, you know, did that, or at least the fact that he was gay after all the books came out. So I appreciate the fuck out of her for that, but so she's not like against the gay people, but I don't like how she is against the trans girls to, you know, Kim: Yeah, that's too bad. Yeah. De'Vannon: it is too bad, but, you know, so she's bittersweet, you know, you know, and that's just where I stand on that. So, so let's talk about. The cancer. So some of my research and you, it wasn't just you who had cancer, you had breast cancer and said your husband had pancreatic pancreatic cancer. Now it's not very often. I talked to a person who were two people in their household had cancer at the same time. So walk me through the emotion.I [00:16:00] want to know where you were when you found out he had cancer. When you had cancer, where you were physically and where you were mentally.Kim: Yeah, well, hopefully this will be valuable to people. I was 47 years old when I found out I had cancer and I Fought getting a mammogram because I thought, oh, it's just a medical system making money. There's no breast cancer in my history that I would know if I had cancer. Like I just, I fought getting them a grams.And so I did not get them every year. Like you're supposed to, they're painful. They're horrible. It was obviously a man who invented the machine that turns your breast into a pancake. It is not a comfortable thing to have to do. And so I, I didn't want to do it. So I, I had you know, but like every few years and you're supposed to go more often than I, I was going.So my doctor convinced me to go and I went, I actually went to the [00:17:00] doctor because I tend to sell well. And she said, you know, you've not had a mammogram for a while. You really need to go. And so I went kicking and screaming and I said, Poor sweet ladies that were working at the Betty Ford clinic. I said, I am not having to be here.Like, this is ridiculous. I, this is a waste of my time. I'm a busy person. I shouldn't even have to be here doing this. And they were very sweet and very nice and did the mammogram, and then they make you wait. And then they wanted to do an ultrasound and they did that and they scheduled me for biopsy. And I was like, this is such a waste of time.There is no way there's anything wrong. And then on a Friday afternoon, two days after my birthday, actually, I wish I had a couple of my grandbabies in the bathtub and my phone rang at like three o'clock in the afternoon. And and they said Kim, the biopsies back, and you have breast cancer.And [00:18:00] that's pretty much all I heard. It was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We'll call you on Tuesday. I was like, what? And they're calling me on a Friday afternoon, you know, and I watch lifetime movies. I like the lifetime good lifetime movie. And that never happens that way. You get called into the office.They tell you face to face. You can ask questions, you know, it's the big dramatic moment, right? No, they called me on the phone on a flip and Friday afternoon when I can ask no questions. That was frustrating to me. And so anyway, I didn't even know how to react. I started crying. I called my husband on the phone.He was at work and, and I could, could barely get the words out and, and it seemed like seconds later he was there and any did the right thing. All of you who have a significant other out there, he did, this is what you should do. He just grabbed me and held me. He just held me and we cried together.Cause we [00:19:00] didn't know what the future health and that cancer word is a scary, scary word. And so the next day I went to the bookstore and all the books about breast cancer were either very depressing or just medical. And I thought, I want to know what it's going to feel like. I want to know what it's like, you know, and I knew better than.Go tracing things on the internet because you see things you don't ever want to see. And so so I started writing actually, it was incredible therapy for me, but it was, I started out just as a way to inform friends and family. Instead of calling everybody, can't go to the doctor tomorrow, you know, whatever.But my writing turned into way more than, than just I'm going to the doctor tomorrow. It was what I was going through. And there are so many choices you have to make, like, one of the choices is I had the choice. I [00:20:00] had to have a mastectomy, but to take off one side or both. And I didn't know. I mean, how do you know what to do?I've never been through this before. I didn't know what the right answer was. And we were sitting around the table, a dinner table one night and talking about it. And I said, I don't, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I've got to make a decision. And one of my son said, mom, Would you get new siding on just half the house?And I went alcohol. Good point you're right. Yeah, we'll go for, we'll go for two here. So anyway, so like I was writing, continued to write my, my husband started having stomach issues. And so it was early September that I was diagnosed that I got the phone call and then the end of September, his stomach was hurting.He went to the doctor and they said, take some Rolaids it's because your wife has cancer, you know, whatever. You're just nervous. And then November, he went back again because it wasn't getting any better. And they told him the same thing, gave him [00:21:00] an appointment for a gastro guy. And the day that his appointment was not until January, it took forever to get into somebody.But the next day I was having a complete hysterectomy and so at a colonoscopy. So I was doing a clean-out the day that he went in. So I wasn't going to. Farther than five feet from my bathroom. And so he went by himself and I was the mouth. So I would have asked a hundred questions. He just went and didn't really ask questions and they did nothing.They basically told him the same thing. It's just, you're just nervous. You don't take some, Rolaids take some Tums, whatever. And I was so mad, but I couldn't really do anything about it. When he came home and told me, you know, whatever, and then the next day I had surgery and so week out of surgery and they found bladder cancer too, during my surgery, whatever.But anyways, so I was still healing and I [00:22:00] woke up in the morning. And he was sitting up in bed and did not look good. And he said, guy, my stomach, it kept me up. I just couldn't sleep. And I said, that's it go to the ER, because they'll do something, you know, at least they'll do something. The doctors are doing nothing.At least I'll run a test, they'll do something. So he drove himself to the emergency room. And my husband was a rule follower. So it said no cell phones in the emergency room. So his cell phone was off. So I'm waiting and waiting and waiting for him to call me. And as I'm still in pajamas watching reruns of Grey's anatomy or something, you know?And so he finally, he called and he said, Well, I guess they're going to keep me off or night. And I'm like, keep you overnight. They don't keep anybody overnight. Like, what are you talking about? Keep you overnight. And so I threw on like human clothing and ran out the door. And in my Vicodin ado, state drove like a bat outta [00:23:00] hell, down the highway to get to the hospital to find out what was going on.And shortly before I got there, my phone rang again and he said I guess there's a spot on my liver. I just started bawling. I could barely see to drive and I don't even remember parking. I just remember running in holding body parts because I had surgery after surgery and I was in pain, but I was, I went running through the door and they told me where he was and he was behind a curtain and I whipped back the curtain and he's just sitting on the edge of the bed.Like nothing is going on is I am balling, I'm sobbing. And, and he said I'm not going to invite you places anymore. If this is the way you're going to behave. And I said, wait a minute, you are not allowed to be funny right now. So it took us a couple of days. He spent a few more days in the hospital and they did some biopsies and a colonoscopy.They did whatever. And so it took [00:24:00] a few days for us to get a diagnosis. And I, I was fighting the doctors every step of the way they, they came in and said that his blood work, that they never saw levels like that. There's some, there's some cancer markers that they, they can tell on your, in your blood. And and the doctor came in and said he never saw the numbers like that.Never that high, never that high. And, and I'm like, well, then the lab screwed up re rewrite. When he said, no, no, no mistake with the lab. I said, really, your lab never makes a mistake. They must've made a mistake. You know, they, they act love if you've never seen numbers like this. And he's like, Nope, Nope, whatever.Anyway, I fought it and fought it, but you know, not that my fighting did any good of course, but so then when we got his diagnosis, I was actually back in the hospital again, because I was doing too much, I think, out of surgery and ended up with a bad kidney infection. And so he's [00:25:00] being released as I'm being admitted and it was just a mess.And but then we got his diagnosis and of pancreatic cancer. And that is just the worst kind. I mean, you know, with. Breast cancer has come a long way. You know, there's different kinds of breast cancer, but it sure has come a long way, you know, but pancreatic cancer just hasn't like, there just isn't a cure.And so we knew what that meant. And so we just. Started praying, man, you know, some miracle give us a miracle, like like the lame and the blind and the deaf got, you know, back in Jesus days and or the greatest miracle of heaven, but don't let them suffer was our prayer. And we had a great time together actually. Funny [00:26:00] as that may sound, we watched cash cab every day and we just enjoyed being together and spent the whole time together thinking that he had a year, they were saying probably a year. And six weeks, six weeks later, he all the whole six weeks were, were really pretty good. He, he wasn't in.And our prayer was being answered. And then but the last couple hours of his life, he was miserable. And he I called hospice to come and help with more meds or, you know, whatever to get them comfortable again. And I was holding him. He was sitting on the edge of the bed because it hurt to lay down and I was just holding him from behind.And I just felt his pain, just the agony, absolute agony that he was in at that time. And, and I just whispered in his ear as a baby, just go. And he did. That was it. He took his last [00:27:00] breath and, and that was, that was it. And it was crushing, because I was still in love with him. And after all those years, we were married a month shy of 29 years.That was 47 years old. And I expected to be that couple rocking on the porch, drinking lemonade, you know, too old to do anything else. And we were going to grow old together. And so it was quite a shock loose him because it wasn't just losing him. It was losing the dream of our future. We had just become empty-nesters and we're so looking forward to that, and I don't know why if you get to run around and make it, or I don't know what it is about that, but we were so looking forward to that, and finally it happened for us.And I believe in [00:28:00] an afterlife, I believe in heaven. And my husband was. An amazing guy who was faithful and true and a great friend of people, an incredible boss people who had great respect for him, he was generous and kind. And so I've never begrudged him. I've never like been angry at him for dying.Like I'm happy for him. Like at 51 years old to never pay a bill again, you know, or have to worry about illness or anything. Go him. Like he did it, he ran the race and finished strong and, and I miss him like crazy. If he walks through the door right now, I'd be the happiest person on earth. But I know it's not going to happen.And so I still had to deal with my stuff. You know, I had to deal with, with my cancer still, and I had to deal with life [00:29:00] now without the love of my life. And. Wasn't sure what life was going to bring. And, but I was sure one thing, I was not gonna stay in the grief. I wasn't gonna let that bring me down.I've known people that stay there. You know what I mean? Do you know people like that, that they lose somebody and they just kind of can't overcome it. They, they don't see a way out of it. And I was determined that, that I, I know there were things that happened that I wouldn't choose. I wouldn't choose to have cancer.I wouldn't choose to lose my husband and I wouldn't choose for him to have cancer, but the choices that I can make are how I'm going to live now. And I can choose to be joyful. And I can choose to embrace life and enjoy it and, and I can choose to be happy. And [00:30:00] though, so those are the choices I decided I would make.De'Vannon: Well to answer your question. Yes. I do know people who tend to get stuck in grief particularly over the death of people with. You know, it's perspective and our value system, you know, well, one thing you have in your favor is that you have an understanding of the life to come in the world to come.Usually when people die, they don't actually see still exist, you know, and, and we get people coming back to visit us in dreams and all sorts of stuff who have passed on. And this is evidence of what I'm telling you. You know, our more permanent form is our spirit form anyway. So when we die, we really become our truest selves.At that point, you know, we here on the earth are actually not yet at our highest state of evolution. So when people, and I'm seeing people cry and fall all over the casket at funerals and everything is all very dramatic, you know, what, what, what, what I feel like people really cry [00:31:00] for it. Death is the fact of.Whatever this person brought to their lives. You know, there are people who are crying over what that person can do for them anymore. Whether it's not bringing them, whether they're bringing them some sort of comfort or whatever, you know, oh my God, this person has gone. How am I going to move on? We'll see.That's really all about you. You know, from there, from the dead person's perspective, they're like peace out, you know, hell yeah. You know, I get the rest now. So I don't cry for the dad anymore because I was, I was at the hospital when my pastor died and she was like a mother to me. And that's what changed my perspective on it because she was like, okay, Yep.Yeah. She's 80 years old. She's like Bundy getting my wings. I'm not leaving this hospital, but y'all y'all are then it was just me, her and her husband was sleeping on the couch and I had served them as like their alter bore and assistant throughout high school. And so I w I went to the hospital that night.I wasn't expecting her to die. You know, it was like, okay, she'll get a miracle, you know, really [00:32:00] powerful prophetess, you know, religious woman and everything like that. I'm like, you know, very clever way and everything, you know, she can't die, you know? So she just had me like, call like one of her daughters and, you know, her daughter that lived in Texas. And, you know, and then everything is kind of like when, you know, went from there and then she did die. And I'm like, you know, I heard that last, like some call it like a death, how that lasts like gas. Life, you know, the part from her, but she was so happy. She wasn't regretting anything to you. Like I'm not in any pain.I feel totally great. Life's been great. Bye. Kim: Yeah. De'Vannon: You had like the best attitude ever. So, and then I cried because okay. I was okay. I was just been with somebody, they die. This is a first. And so but now I was like, you know what? She was really happy about this whole death thing. Old, what the fuck am I crying for?Kim: Yeah, [00:33:00] right. I mean, yeah. I, I think you're absolutely, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, we do, we, we mourn for ourselves, right. I cried for?them and we, they got it made, you know, we're the ones. In fact, during the time during that six weeks with my husband, there were times I would just start crying because I just couldn't help it.And, you know, try to be all tough for him, whatever. And I just started crying and he just would me and hold me. And he'd say, don't cry for me. Cry for me, cry for you. But don't cry for me. De'Vannon: He told you, right. And he had a good mind. He's like a very wise Sage. And look, I get that kids are going to die and stuff like that. And it really rips my heart apart when, when marriage is in ended because of the death of a child, I've never been in that situation only once in my life have I heard heard it said where a couple lost the kid.And they were like, you know what, we're thankful for the time God gave us what that kid made, the kid [00:34:00] was 17, but, and then they move it on. Not saying it was just that either. I don't know if they went to counseling or whatever, but you know, it's about perspective even in the death of like a kid, you know, that kid belongs to God first, before it does to the, before that he, before that individual does to the parents.And so. You know, we can have a plan for our child, but God might have other plans. And so we gotta be willing to let those plans go, you know, you know, shit, something in, and you know, sometimes we're just too married to how we think someone else's life is supposed to go supposed to end or even our own, you know, but they're there in lies the differences between somebody who has surrender to God and who not, you know, so Kim: Right. De'Vannon: it's easier to deal with the bad things in life.If you understand it all, doesn't have to go in whatever sort of way that you've already processed it in your head. Like it's going to be. And so. You mentioned [00:35:00] that they left your cancer diagnosis on a voicemail. So they left my, my doctors left my HIV diagnosis on a voicemail. It was a Saturday night, new year's Eve and much the same way, like man, really on a Saturday night, new year's Eve, you couldn't have would've fucking waited until like Monday on like on the second, you know,Kim: Oh, my word De'Vannon: So let me say to doctors in medical professions out there, just because we may or may not sign some shit that says you can leave voicemails.We mean, we still need you to exercise some modicum of discretion about what you choose to. It doesn't mean you're just billing everything on there. We like to hear good shit, good test results, appointment reminders. If it's a life altering diagnosis, even though we may have given you permission, just because you can doesn't mean you should.We would very much like you to bring us into the office and tell us if we have HIV cancer or something else, do not leave it on a voicemail and not on a Friday or Saturday night when we're trying to enjoy our [00:36:00] damn wine.Kim: Yeah, new year, happy new year. Oh, my word. I think too, like with the medical profession, like they have to deliver news like that. So often that maybe they just become a little, yeah. A little callous. Right. And so they're not necessarily paying attention to the calendar or time of day or you know how they're doing It but man, if it's something that two days or three days, isn't going to make a difference in your life, you know, health wise wait the two or three days for goodness sake.Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy.De'Vannon: It matters how we deliver bad news to people. And I didn't learn this or know it until I got that voicemail. It just does like the setting, the atmosphere, you know, I never talked to a psychologist, smart doctors bring a person. And even in the case of cancer, I would imagine you want to have the mental health staff.You want to have everybody [00:37:00] right there in the room, so that that person doesn't run out and go do something to hurt themselves. You know, something like that, you know, cause you never know what a per house person might react. And by leaving a voicemail, you Rob with the patient of the luxuries, I'm not even the luxury of the bare minimum necessities of having all the care there or at least set the appointments before they leave.I never talked to a doctor about it again, really. I never went to a, a mental health. I decided that I was going to die. And so then I became homeless and then I started getting arrested and everything. And so, you know, I had the wrong perception of what HIV was, but I wasn't in a doctor's office to get any education.And they told me the word infectious disease. And I was like, fuck, I don't want to go talk to those people. It sounds disgusting. So I was freaked out by the name of everything and I just ran. I ran ran from it.Kim: I, I can't say as I blame you, I mean, you know, HIV is certainly things have [00:38:00] changed a lot over the years, right? As far as medications, treatments and whatever, but there was a time, not that long ago that that was a death sentence. And I would think that's the first thing that's going to come to your mind is, oh my gosh, it.HIV I'm going to die.Is that what you thought? Like, is that what you were thinking?De'Vannon: It did, because at that time in Houston, when I was living in Houston, Texas, I would walk into like a gay bar and be like, Hey, where's Timmy or whatever. And they'd be like, oh, he died. He had aids or another fellow drug dealer of mine die from aids. Someone when I was growing up, when I was younger, died from aids, everyone I knew had died from aids.And so it doesn't matter how far the medication has come and the science has come and how well something can be treated if somebody doesn't know that that is just like, well, they don't know that. So, and so if you, and I didn't know that. And I didn't know anyone living a healthy life that I was good friends with.You know, [00:39:00] I might've talked to at many, met a guy on a hookup app that may have had HIV, but having sex with somebody and being okay that they're HIV positive is not really, they didn't really give me insight into exactly how they were living it. And I pushed that out of my mind because I just wanted Dick.And so I, didn't never, I didn't look at that as an opportunity to explore how one could live healthily with the virus, because I was just horny and trying to fuck, you know, so I let an opportunity pass me by, but you know, I have a different perspective about things now. I want you to you've mentioned that the mammogram was like turning like the breast and into if the pancakes and that it's a painful experience that, you know, a woman isn't probably gonna look forward to.What, what can you, what can you tell me about this machine and what it, what it does, but I'm trying to imagine the sort of torture device that you see.Kim: It's exactly what it is. You you like, you put your arm [00:40:00] up and try to get as close into the machine as you possibly can. And then it literally squishes you from the top and bound me, you know, like turn a knob or something and it goes farther and farther, farther, and it. Wishes you in there. It is painful.And I I don't know if it's better, if you're big busted or small breasted, I don't know what the difference would be. I've always known Ben well, in doubt. And so I, I had a lot to squished and it hurts. I mean, it, it, other women, maybe we're fortunate enough to have different experiences than I did, but any mammogram I ever had her like, crazy, like that was one of the blessings of may having a double mastectomy is I would never have to have another mammogram and I'm okay with that.But cause there's gotta be some silver lining. Right. But yeah, it just, it just goes squishes. Yeah. And yeah, that hurts. [00:41:00]De'Vannon: Damn. I wish I wish I thought you were telling me like what the blood work that they can detect, you know, there's cancer markers, but I wish that y'all could just get blood work done instead, but clearly that's not the case. Otherwise they wouldn't be making you go through the mammogram. So gosh, girls, I, I have the utmost respect for women, you know, from the, from having studied the the period, the menstrual cycles during the massage therapy, which.I'm telling you become a massage therapist, you have to learn so much, so much about the anatomy, things that in the body you'll never touch. And so just learning about how y'all's bodies change when you're trying to bear a child and everything like that and everything that's going on, you know, in the different, or, or Oregon's in the different anatomical structure of a female, you know, I have so much respect for women.You know, y'all are, y'all are strong, you know, mentally and physically and everything like [00:42:00]that. And in my opinion, quite unbreakable.Kim: Ah, I love that. I agree. I think women, we have to be strong and I think we need to support each other more than what we do sometimes. Like there should be a sisterhood, you know, like we should be supportive of each other and, and aren't always, you know, we can be, sometimes we can be the worst enemies and it shouldn't be like that.Like, There should be this strong bond between us. Cause we, we do have to put up with a lot. So then what happens is we put up with a sense from the time we were 10, 11, 12 years old, right. We have to deal with, with periods and cramps and pain. And then childbirth is no joyful moment. You know, it's nice.You get a baby at the end, but but it's hard, you know, and painful and pregnancy can be tough and all of that. And so then later in life, when men, you have to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom more often because of [00:43:00] prostate issues, it's sort of payback in a way. It's like, oh, the one thing that the money I have to deal with kind of my, yeah, De'Vannon: Well boys, boys with better mind what energy we send out there, because it's going to come back to us later on. Kim: that's right. De'Vannon: So I played women, great respect. I identify more women than I do men, nothing against men. I mean, I like to go both ways and all the different ways that I can in the world sexually speaking, and, you know, spiritually speaking and energetically speaking for them to feel like a man to another, feel like a woman I'm not confused.I just want it all. AndKim: know, you know, the beauty of that is that I really believe that God created people to be who they are. And there are so many people out there that don't feel like they can live their authentic self, their real self, right. Because of things that they were taught growing up, or a lot of times churches doing so.much damage to [00:44:00] people saying, oh gosh, you can't be like that.Like my daughter had probably, I don't know if I should be saying this on the radio, but it's okay. But my daughter married a man. And she got pregnant on her honeymoon and when she was in the hospital delivering. He told her he was gay and wanted out of the marriage. And, but he grew up in the super strict Baptist home where you're not allowed to be gay.You know that that's a sin. Well, not all that creates you. How God creates you. You be who you are. Like there's beauty in that there's beauty in the diversity, right? People should just be allowed to be who they are without judgment or condemnation. Just be who God created you to be. De'Vannon: Fuck. When I was in California, I went through this phase where I was trying to pray the gay away, and there is a documentary and I I've been keeping this in my show notes for. Shit since it came out. So it's been a running thing [00:45:00] that I've had in my show notes for quite some time, it's called pray away.There's a documentary on Netflix about the old exited Exodus conversion therapy movement. The people who used to run that who supposedly got converted and were ungay and told everybody else has changed their ways, which resulted in suicides and deaths. Well, now they're still gay and they've come back to spill all the tea about the Exodus movement and how bullshit conversion therapy really.And so I do recommend that, that, that fucking documentary to everybody, it is some tea being spill, pour your wine, get your favorite beverage out, roll you up a blunt, whatever it is that you do, because that shit is to piss you off. But it's real. But I went through that too. I got me a girlfriend. I hung out with straight guys. I tried to fast and pray as Jesus to make me ungay and it didn't work. And I dated this girl for six months and ultimately I ended up just breaking her heart because the shit wasn't real, you know? And so where did I ever learn that something was wrong with me from the church? You know, God never [00:46:00] told me that, you know, it, look, y'all not every preacher is preaching.The truth is that we've got to get past this believing this, that somebody is on a pool pit or on television or in a suit up on a platform like they know better than, than, than you do. They don't Kim: Right. Exactly. Yeah. That, that, and and that is not the church, you know, it's churches that hurt people. God's not hurting. Right. And so sometimes people get angry about what they've been taught in church, and then they realize that they've been taught wrong, or the church that they went to can be so harsh or, you know, whatever.And that's church's fault. You know, that that unfortunately reflects on God in some people's eyes, but it's not God that God loves that is love. That's what it says in John, that God is love. Not that he loves, but that he is loved. Like in love, love, doesn't do that. Love. Doesn't [00:47:00] make people fit into some box because people are more comfortable with it loved to let you be who you are love.Just allows you to live your real self and without judgment, without thinking that you're better than, or higher than, or no more or whatever. De'Vannon: I agree with what you're saying, Kim, it, and it will take some time for people to accept that sort of truth and then internalize it, you know, because we're, we believe what we are taught growing up until we come into independent thinking. That's why I appreciate the mindfulness movement that's happening right now.And the, the push for autonomous mental thought. When I got kicked out of Lakewood church in Houston, Texas for not being straight, it caused a rift between me and God. Now I hadn't been in church. And like I said, serving my past and all of that until I was in high school and went to the military, I always held a volunteer position in church.They kicked me out and that [00:48:00] stopped me from praying is a, why did that happen? Because I had conflated. The God in the church as to one. And no, that was not, I was not as mature as I thought I was. And I was not as spiritually strong as I thought I was because had that happened. I should've just said, okay, well fuck this church, but not fuck the God.And I just said, fuck everything you see. And so, but now I would never do that because now I finally get, as I'm almost 40 years old, you know, that there's a difference in between the physical church and God himself. And the two should never church, as I say, a church is nothing more than an accessory to your spiritual walk, your most valuable time to be your alone time with God, so that when these pastors show up in their fucking scandals and when they do dumb shit, like kick us out for not being straight and the, in the straight people see them, see their friends getting abused by churches for not being straight.You know, we can still keep our relationship with God. So Jerry [00:49:00] Falwell, Jr. Did you see his latest bullshit? You know, after all of his shit, he finally came out in an article and said that he, that it was all a ruse, him running the that fucking seminary that his dad created and trying to do all that.He said, it's all a lie. He wasn't ever about all that. He wants to just, you know, do him. And that is not who he is. He ain't about all this Jesus stuff. So finally just fucking admitted it, bitch. Should we knew that because you know, when he had to address the pool boy scandal, you got, you got the pool boys running around and you got your, your pants unzip.And while you taking selfies with a bitch, that's not your fucking wife. We knew. So that whole message was to his brain fucked church followers and his evangelicals and everything like that. Like boy, and by we already knew.Kim: Yeah.but knowing, and then somebody admitting meeting two things, right? Like it can be hard when you're, when you're in the [00:50:00] spotlight and, you know, I think it can be easy for people to get wrapped up in ego. And I mean, how many people we've seen fall and it, and it can, the higher you build your pedestal the longer the fall is down.And it's sad to see. It's sad to see for sure. De'Vannon: His pedestal was fake though. But what you said is what he said. He was like, it was so much pressure to live up to this expectation of his dad, but you know, or he could have said, you know what, dad, fuck you. This is not who I am. I'm going to go have my pants up and on cruise ships and fucking pool boys.That's what I want to do. Okay. That's what you want to do, Jerry. Then go have your three ways and bring whatever, you know, we always have a choice. And so the let's make sure our pedestal is built on truth and not on a lie.Kim: Yeah, for sure. For sure. De'Vannon: So, [00:51:00] so, so we're going to close to the end of our hour here. We're definitely going to have you back on because you wrote two books one's called love is, and the other one's called cry and tell you lab. And we haven't had time to get into them at a feeling this would happen because you have so much substance going on with you.And sometimes I might have to have someone back on my show two or three or four times or whatever the case may be. And if that's the case, you know what, so be it then. But I want to talk about Haiti a little bit because God bless that nation. You know, they've been through so much. And I really want to shine a spotlight on, on Haitian people.I really, really do. And it seems like you have a strong heart for Haiti, and I love how then I was reading your book. You went there for the first time in the year 2000, and you were like talking about the poverty and the, the, the, the rank air and everything. And you it's like, you were fighting, falling in love with it, but nevertheless, here you are.And you're still in love with it. Sometimes in life. I've had that experience where my [00:52:00] first brush with something I'm like, I feel indifferent for it, or like I'm propelled by it. And really at the end of the day, I was falling in love with it. And I was like some of my favorite things, things that I hated at first, I find love now more than anything else.And I read that in the story. So the hate has been through so much. And when they had that last earthquake, a relative in my family said some stupid fucking shit like this. He was like, okay, just because of all that witchcraft they have down there, this is why this punishment has come upon them. And which I responded to his ignorance just a little bit.I was like, I'd probably say, it's something like, if you're not going to pray about them or speak something positive, then shut the fuck up because you don't know what the fuck they're doing. You know, he's never been Haiti. You know, he doesn't have, he's drawing all these conclusions from a distance yet.We'll speak about it as if it's fact. And so that shit pisses me off. And so [00:53:00] you've lived among the people. And so you have every right to have written the things that you have written. So I want you totell, to speak to me about your joy and your love for Haiti. And then I want to talk about the voodoo before we, before we wrap up, and then we're going to talk about the book in depth. The next time I have you back on and we're in really, really, really talk about Haiti alive.Kim: Yeah, I do. I love, I love Haiti. You know, people are people all over the world and we tend to put labels on people, right? Republican, Democrat, Bexar anti-vaxxer Haitia and America, and, you know, whatever, we, we put labels on people, but people aren't, their labels. You know, a person is not a label that we all have our names.We're all individuals. We all have our names and people are people all over the world. Haitian. [00:54:00] People, unfortunately, that are living in Haiti. You know, it's the poorest country in the Western hemisphere. The average Haitian eats three meals a week. Most do not have clean water. So they've got water that makes them sick.They had an earthquake in 2010 that killed over 200,000 people. And then the UN police that are there are supposed to be peacekeepers there. They end up putting their latrines way too close to the river, which is a source of water for people. They bathe in it, they wash their clothes in it, like it it's life to them.And because their latrines were too close, they introduced cholera into the country, Colorado that had, hadn't been in the country for a hundred years now, cholera's back in Haley and lots of people, thousands of people have died because of cholera because of the UN police. And it's it's. It is it's kind of thing after thinking of, to saying.Haiti is wonderful, wonderful, [00:55:00] incredible, loving people that are living in really tough conditions is really what it comes down to. And I think there's a misconception, like in some people's minds, poverty and laziness go together and poverty and laziness have nothing to do with each other. There, they shouldn't even be in the same sentence.What, what people in Haiti lack is opportunity. There are no jobs. We've done so much damage to Haiti. The world bank has done a lot of damage to Haiti. Other countries have done the understand Haiti because people make money on poverty. And so it's two people in this world's advantage financially, take heap people down and keep them living in poverty, which is. The biggest crime of all probably. Right. And so it's not a lack of intelligence. It's not a lack of [00:56:00] work ethic. It's that keeps them in poverty. It is it is lack of opportunity. It is lack of opportunity. I don't know, a lazy Haitian I'm sure. You know, like anything else there's going to be lazy people, but I don't know any people that I know work hard and, and take opportunities to work when, when the opportunity is there.It's just not always, there is the problem. And voodoo, I think is so misunderstood. You know, w we, if we break a mirror at seven years of bad luck, or, you know, a black cat crosses your path or Friday the 13th, or don't walk under a ladder, like we have our own superstitions. Right. And they're just sort of cultural superstitions within our country.And We have movies based on our cultural superstitions. Well, voodoo there's cultural voodoo. It's not all just on a [00:57:00] religious voodoo there's cultural voodoo. And so some of the beliefs, some of the, you know, things like if you pick up a baby from behind that baby is not going to grow to haul, you know, some things like that, that we'd go, what are they talking about? Well, they go, what are you talking about? You can't walk under a ladder, right? You can open an umbrella inside. You know, I mean, each culture probably has their own set of those kinds of things, but people love Jesus and have voodoo in their life at the same time. And one does not have to exclude the other because voodoo, I think people think of zombies or they think of, of animal sacrifice or human sacrifice, whole.Buddha is so much more than that. There are so few doctors and so little healthcare in the entire country that there are Buddha doctors and you don't just become one. You know, your dad was one. So your one, your grandpa, your great grandpa, and it [00:58:00] is herbal remedies and different ways to handle health issues.That's what a voodoo doctor does. It's not about curses and whatever. It's about, you know, they're in a community, there's no healthcare anywhere that you can walk to that you can get to at all. So there's a doctor basically in the community and there are some I'm sure, very valuable things we could probably learn from them with natural remedies. like you were talking about Blackwood for sure earlier, right? And that's Buddha, they're a voodoo doctor, but they're not. Skin and animals, you know what I mean? It's, there is some of that, certainly some extreme voodoo like there's extreme, anything else. But I would say, I mean, I don't know the statistic, but I know a whole lot of people in Haiti and people that I know it's they're culturally, there's voodoo, but they're not sacrificing [00:59:00] anything.They're not, you know, some of the stuff you see in movies or read in books or whatever, that's not happening. They're just people living like we're living in and it's part of their culture.De'Vannon: Well, like you said, there's two sides to everything. You have the extreme size of it and the bad side of it. When I have you go on the next time, we're going to get more into the vote. And I'm going to talk about the experience that I had when I was in high school, where somebody practiced the negative side of voodoo on me.Kim: Oh, I can't wait to hear about it. De'Vannon: And because they're both, they're both the true, you know, you have a, and then, you know, I have a couple of voodoo stories that I live here in Louisiana and voodoo is a big thing, voodoo who do whatever you want to call it, especially down in new Orleans, you know, it's serious. We, we actually still have a place called Marie.Lavos a house of voodoo, which I think is the house she used to live in. And it was soon turned into like a [01:00:00] store in her honor. You can go there and buy candles and voodoo dolls and different sort of magic accessories to do your magic craft with and stuff like that. And I love American horror story.Season three is about the a, which is the new Orleans. And and there Angela Bassett plays Marie Laveau in in, in American horror story coven is what it's called. And it's just very, it's very entertaining as the kick ass, the way that they portrayed her. But you mentioned two, two things that I wanted to touch on, and then I will let you have our last word. You mentioned that poverty and laziness, you know, you're not overly fond of those two things being coupled together. I wanted to give you a nod on that because the same, the same dumb ass relative who was talking shit about the Haitian people after they suffered the tragedy of the second earthquake than a reason of relatively short amount of time. We were driving around one day and somebody was like [01:01:00] homeless and he was all like, oh, I know they just go somewhere. And like in a program, you know, like fix that or whatever. Okay. And I think at this point I had already been homeless before that he said this stupid shit in my presence. And so I agree with you.It's not about laziness. It's about access opportunity. And then I'm going to add to that and say, state of mind, having lived amongst the homeless people and not everybody wants to become homeless, that everybody out there is unhappy. You have people living in mansions who go and fucking kill themselves or other people in the house.You know, there, there could be chaos, you know, in the richest places, but somebody out there shit. When I was in California to see the homeless people, sleeping, sleeping under the Palm trees in Cal, in Santa Monica, you know, They look fine, you know, just because we see somebody and what we consider to be the greatest state doesn't mean that they consider themselves to be in a degraded state of that they're unhappy, or that we need to go run, trying to fix them, or that there's anything [01:02:00]wrong with them being like that.And so, but it's not just because they're lazy or they don't want to work. Maybe they've had everything before they are. They don't want the pressures that come with having a successful life. Maybe they just fucking don't want anyone calling them. They don't fucking want any appointments. They don't want any meetings.They just want to round the street, get high, fuck and just go to fucking sleep.Kim: So funny that you say that I live, I live not in a huge city. It's the second biggest city in Michigan grand rapids. And there are home. We have homeless and I know a lot of them, I live right downtown. I know a lot of them by name and I know people that are afraid of homeless people. And it's like, when was the

HIGHLIGHTSKim and her courage to face lifeKim's background as a business coachFrom working to starting a business, to coaching businessesWhy Kim chose her current pathDealing with the mindset of hesitationDealing with clients who look down on themselvesDealing with your ego and moving forwardQUOTESKim: “And I think being a woman and being a lesbian, and coming out and living my life out loud, as I like to say, and I want my clients to live their life out loud, that you have to have the courage to face the shit that most people don't want to face. And that's whatever it is in your life. It's whatever it is in my life.”Kim: “So again, this is the courage piece that comes up of the willingness to change, the willingness to pivot, the willingness to say, this is no longer suiting me, and changing gears.”Scott: “Over the past however many years, there has been a secret plague, making Western society sick and it isn't the Coronavirus. Actually, many people say there's a lot of plagues, but the one I'm talking about that is a secret one is a plague of alienation, and disconnect, people feeling disconnected from each other people feeling disconnected from themselves, particularly with regards to a lot of issues like purpose and spirituality, which are which historically, there were institutions that help them find that those institutions are still there. But a lot of people are in those circumstances and life changes occurred, people might need something a little bit may still find themselves lost.”Scott: “Because achievement orientation, particularly in arenas, like sports, academics, titled degrees, can take us exactly where you're going. At the expense of purpose.”Kim: “At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how well I work in that environment for someone else's success, the success of each person is up to them with the tools that they have. So forgetting the process. Life is about living. It's not about the destination. And we do this thing called life with connection with others.”Kim: “The mindset that you have is in your control, if you consistently and it's not, you know, funky positive psychology, whatever “do do” stuff. If you don't believe that you're going to do something you won't.”Kim: “You know, life is a marathon. And so you don't have to find your purpose tomorrow. You don't have to find what that is. I think it's bullshit to search for just a purpose. I think my purpose is just to exist and be the best I know how to be.”Kim: “God gave you a brain in two feet, gave you hands if you know, that kind of thing. So it really is doing the work. But it starts with how you talk with yourself and how you say things to yourself. No one's gonna dangle a million dollars in front of you just because you're cute. You have to do the work.”Scott: “I needed to adapt to the circumstances to what I was given and then succeed on the terms that I had.”Kim: “It really is tapping into the strengths of a person and paying attention to who they are as people.”Kim: “If you want to stay miserable, you will stay miserable. I was choosing to stay miserable in certain periods of my life because I thought I needed to settle for that shit. You know whether I stayed in an abusive relationship, whether I stayed with an abusive boss and a company that I worked in for too long, you know things like that, like we have a choice.”Kim: “We are collective and need to be connected.”Kim: “Once you stop learning, you're dead. So being willing to say, hmm, I have some skill sets. I don't know how to do this, I can learn how to do this. And that will get me out of where I am. That's this shift. That's the mindset shift that I talk about a lot.”To find out more about Kim, please see the links below.Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimbrady/Website: http://www.kimbradybusinesscoaching.com/To hear more of Scott Mason and the Purpose HighwayⓇ podcast, join our community at https://purposehighway.com/ and subscribe to get notified when new episodes go live.

WelcomeQuestion of the day: Never Have I Ever: Bachelor StyleI will ask two Never Have I Ever and Bill will ask two Never Have I EverK: Never Have I Ever…gone on a date with two different people in the same weekendK: Never Have I Ever…flown in a helicopter (I have been in a hot tub on a big boat though)B:Never have I ever…ditched a person during a date for a fake excuseB:Never have I ever…shown interest in someone to get access to their friend I really wanted to date.2 minute recap (Kim) (It's more like five minutes but it's funny)3 concepts/topics to discuss (Kim)Weaponizing mental healthSharing someone else's mental health struggles is never okMaking fun of someone else's mental health struggles is never okSaying you have ADHD too and everyone has ADHD and minimizing someone else's ADHD is never okMean GirlsYou were a teenage boy. I was a teenage girl. Is ‘Mean Boys' a thing because middle school girls can be brutal. But these women are in their twenties. What are they doing?https://www.verywellfamily.com/signs-of-a-mean-girl-460512 When they go low, we go high (My Queen Michelle Obama)First Impressions in Week One vs Second Impressions in Week TwoShanae, Cassidy, Susie and Elizabeth got the most screen time this weekWho do we want to be featured in Week 3?Week one vs week two spreadsheet comparisonsWild card concept or topic (Bill)Cheating and is it a red flag?Lessons learnedSign off

This week Matthew and Kim take a deep dive into the third pillar of successful relationships, conflict resolution. No matter how healthy your relationship is, it is human nature to fall into conflict from time to time. When we hear the word conflict we think of yelling, arguing, and negativity… but it does not have to be that way. Conflict is inevitable, but combat is optional. Running into conflict with your partner can bring you closer by learning to understand one another on a deeper level. If you feel like you and your partner always fall into the same rhythm of criticism, contempt and defensiveness, you are not alone. Tune in this week to learn to resolve conflict in a healthy and productive way with your partner. Key Ideas-Tools and skills in conflict resolution -The three states of every relationship -Conflict resolution isn't about changing your partner -The Four Horsemen Theory -How women deal with their feelings vs men Quotes: “Conflict resolution is a skill, it's learned, you have got to practice it, you have to develop it, you have to grow it and learn how to use it.”- Matthew “Human tendency is to go in and try to fix it, or go in and try to be defensive and we have to practice the good skills and learn how to manage the conflict to be able to resolve or even get beyond it.” -Kim “It's about I and You when you're in conflict you're not commenting and saying what the other person did but you're saying I feel, I need… because in using those I statements you're communicating your state in an effort to help your spouse understand.” -Matthew “There's really always 2 realities… Everybody in every situation has the right to feel how they feel... It doesn't mean I have to feel the same way but I need to validate and make sure that you know that I understand how you feel and why you feel that way   ” -Matthew “You gotta figure out what the dream is within the conflict, because there is a conflict but the dream means what's the underlying issue or what do you really want to happen here.” -Matthew“If I could give advice to men in general, women really need to talk about and express their feelings… a lot of times women will bring it up in a heated way and it's not because they are in conflict or coming at their spouse they just need to get it off their plate.” -Kim Follow us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok @kickasscouplesnationFor access to workshops with professional therapists, keynote speakers, hot seat training and more exclusive content join our online learning community at: https://matthewphoffman.comOrder ‘Kickass Husband: Winning at Life, Marriage, and Sex' by Matthew Hoffman at https://matthewphoffman.com/ And don't forget to leave us a review! 

When people think about today’s guest, tenacity is probably the first word that comes to mind. Everything she accomplished today stems from her unwavering self-belief and deep understanding that you must also take care of yourself. Through this perspective, she has taught herself and countless others how to overcome challenges. And like her, we’ve encountered countless adversities. We’ve all been in a place of anger, frustration, guilt or sadness. How do we begin to accept and love ourselves and learn to grow from it? In this week’s episode, Kim Morrison joins us to teach us all about self-love. She shares how she questioned human existence and purpose after a life-changing event and what we should be asking ourselves whenever we go through intense emotions. Kim also tells us how to overcome challenges and trauma, and discusses different helpful processes like hypnosis. If you want to find out how to overcome challenges, achieve self-love and accomplish your goals, then tune in to this episode!   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year’s time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa’s Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce’ Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Find out how to overcome challenges. Discover the things you need to work on and achieve self-love. Learn about goal setting and the importance of aligning it with your values. Episode Highlights [05:57] A Little Bit About Kim Kim grew up in New Zealand. She’s married to Danny Morrison, a former cricketer and fast-paced bowler. Their world turned upside down when they lost a sister to suicide. They then lost their house and a lot of money that they had invested. Seeing her husband go through a world of emotions made Kim question what makes humans tick and why we struggle and go through such tough times. This led her to write several books around essential oils and started her passion for plants, aromatherapy, and connection to nature.  Lately, she has been interested in mind work like neuro-linguistic programming and hypnosis. [10:09] What She’s Learned in the Past Years You are the result of the five people with whom you spend the most time. We can have a significant event happen in our lives that causes us emotional trauma. Depending on our filter system and body physiology, it then affects our behaviour. A fascinating thing Kim found out is that the meaning we put into our early childhood can then affect what our lives become.  When you have awareness around it, you can undo this. What happens to you does not matter. What matters is your reaction and perception of it. [18:44] How Trauma Affects Us  Humans are made up of 50 trillion cells, and every one of those cells is communicating. Unconsciously, so much is happening in our body because of homeostasis. It takes time, effort, energy and real work on how to overcome challenges presented by trauma. You must seek professional help. There’s also a lot of free services out there.  You need to take the time to take care of yourself. [24:02] How to Overcome Challenges  Most people’s excuses for why they do not work on themselves are time and money, but those are not true. In truth, it is about whether or not you make yourself a priority. Own up to your emotions with power instead of having a victim mentality. To have a friend who is a good listener, or to be that friend, is one of the best fast-track pathways to self-care. Lastly, to learn how to overcome challenges, you need discipline.  Life has its highs and lows, and if we can come to accept that, then that is self-love. To heal, we have to truly feel our emotions. [33:35] The Reticular Activating System and Goal Setting The reticular activating system is a part of our brain that stores memories. It has filters and a whole belief system. We receive 2 million bits of information every day, but we only have access to 136 bits. Sometimes, your goal does not match your value.  You have to have your goal aligned with your top three values. To do this, you need to do some work. What we believe, perceive and focus on is where our energy goes. If our goals aren’t aligned, we look for excuses to not accomplish them.  [43:23] The Hypnosis Process Hypnosis is about tapping directly into the unconscious mind. When someone uses hypnotic language, it puts us into a subconscious trance. Your mind can then go on a journey, and we can tap into the heart space. It allows us to bypass the critical factor and create change. When you come out to the other side, you see possibility and opportunity instead of negativity. Breath is the essence of life. When we go into a state of hypnosis, we are letting go of the breath and accessing our energy. [50:37] Our Perception of the World Everything we have ever experienced is just a belief or a perception; it is never the truth. If we imagine the world from someone else’s perspective, we gain more understanding. Every time you feel yourself going into a place of anger, frustration, guilt, or sadness, ask yourself, ‘For what purpose am I feeling this?’ or simply ask, ‘Why?’ [56:47] On Negative Thoughts As negative thoughts enter your mind, ask seven whys.  We often have two characters in our head, one who is positive and another who is negative.  If you ask the seven why’s to those characters, you will find out that both have the same purpose – to protect you.   Resources Gain exclusive access to premium podcast content and bonuses! Become a Pushing the Limits Patron now! The Art of Self Love by Kim Morrison Self Love Podcast with Kim Morrison Learn with Kim on Kim Morrison Training Join Kim’s Self-Love & Wellness Mentorship program with this special offer! Twenty8 Essentials: Website | Facebook Connect with Kim: Website | Instagram | LinkedIn | Twitter The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell The Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton The Wim Hof Method Breath by James Nestor The Oxygen Advantage by Patrick McKeown Change Your Brain, Change Your Life by Dr Daniel G. Amen  The Secret by Rhonda Byrne Pushing the Limits Episode 180 - Breathing as the Key to Better Health with James Nestor Pushing the Limits Episode 182 - Science Behind Nasal Breathing and How to Breathe Better with Patrick McKeown Pushing the Limits Episode 190 - How to Build Resilience and Get Control of Your Biology with Paul Taylor   7 Powerful Quotes from this Episode ‘And the thing I love about it is that when you realise it and have an awareness around who you are and what you've been doing, the world becomes your oyster, and we stop blaming; we stop becoming the victim, we stop being in denial, we stop making excuses for our life. And we actually take accountability, responsibility and ownership for every single thing.’ ‘And I say that with a disclaimer, that it's really important that in these times of worry and fear and stress and overwhelm, that you seek help. If you're feeling like your world is closing in, you're not your own coach; you’re not your own best coach; your partner's not necessarily the best coach or mentor for you through these times, neither are your parents. So sometimes we need professional help.’  ‘Often, as we talk it to someone that's listening, truly listening without trying to fix us. When you're listening, we often talk through the process out loud because I believe all humans have all traits. And all humans have all resources within them to help heal themselves. But sometimes we just need to hear it.’ ‘And if we could just understand that it's at our darkest times, we actually are revealed. Your strength comes through your courage, your determination, your tenacity, your resilience is what shows up.’ ‘So we know that life is ebb and flow, high and low, in and out, dark and light. If we can come to accept that, then that is self-love.’ ‘So the important thing to realise is that you have to have your goal aligned with your top three values. And if it's not aligned with any of your top three values, you're going to need some integration work to bring it up there if it's something you really want. Because otherwise, that's where the excuses come in.’ ‘Just keep your mind stimulated with possibility. Because it's through the possibility we have grown, and through the growth we become way more powerful individuals. And with that, we start to then look at our higher purpose, and what legacy are we going to leave in this life.’    About Kim Kim Morrison is a speaker, author, facilitator, health and lifestyle educator, self-love expert and entrepreneur. She set the world record as the youngest female to run 100 miles in less than 24 hours in 1983. Kim has been an Aromatherapist for 27 years. She has diplomas in Holistic Aromatherapy, Sport and Remedial Therapies, Fitness Leadership and Homeobotanical Therapies in Melbourne and New Zealand. She is also a qualified Personality Trainer and completed studies in nutrition, reflexology and counselling. In 2009, Kim launched her company, Twenty8 Essentials. To learn more about Kim, visit her website. Check out her podcast and connect with her on Instagram as well!   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn more about how to overcome challenges through self-love. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.   To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Welcome back to Pushing The Limits with your host Lisa Tamati. Today I have the lovely, dear friend, Kim Morrison, to guest. Kim is an absolute sweetheart. She's a speaker. She's a six-times author, a facilitator, health and lifestyle educator, podcaster herself. She is a self-love expert. And there's so much more to come than meets the eye. She's an absolute gorgeous woman inside and out. Tenacity is probably the first word that comes to mind. In her journey and all she’s accomplished today have all stemmed from her unwavering self-belief and her deep understanding that you must also take care of yourself first and foremost. She recently wrote a book called The Art of Self-Love, which I encourage you to check out after you've listened to this podcast. Kim is also, she’s an entrepreneur, she owns the company Twenty8 Essentials with essential oils. She does a lot of mentoring, especially with women's empowerment. She has her own podcast. She's also a world record holder as the youngest female to run 100 miles in less than, in 24 hours. So she's a very amazing athlete and mother. She's also the wife of Danny Morrison, the famous cricketer, and she's just an absolute legend. She's been through a lot in her life, and she shares in this episode a lot of her learnings along the way so I do hope you enjoy the episode with Kim.  Before I head over to the show, just want to let you guys know we've just launched our premium membership for the podcast. If you love Pushing the Limits, if you love what we stand for, if you'd like to support the show and get a whole lot of extra benefits as premium members, and the list is long on the extra benefits, then I would love you to hop on over to patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com and become one of our VIP members. One of our premium members that supports the podcast and the work that we do, and helps us keep getting this great content out there and get a whole lot of benefits, as you know to be a part of this exclusive club. So we're really, really stoked to get that up off the ground and we really appreciate your support. Of course, if you give us a rating and review for the shows too, that would be absolutely fabulous, and share it with your family and friends. We put a lot of effort into this. Sometimes some of the guests we have, top scientists, top doctors and researchers. It takes often many weeks to prepare for an interview and a lot of study, a lot of reading, a lot of books and also chasing celebrity guests and people that are of note that are hard to get hold of. So if you want me to be able to keep doing this work, I’d really appreciate your support over at patron.lisatamati.com. And while we're on that note, if you're into interesting reads, please check out my three books I have Running Hot, Running To Extremes which both chronicle my adventures running around the world doing lots of crazy stuff, succeeding, failing, having lots of fun and experiences and disasters along the way. So if you like a good novel, well, not a novel, they're actually autobiographies. But if you'd like good running stories and adventures then please check those out. And my latest book, Relentless: How a Mother and Daughter Defied the Odds is available on my website as well as on Amazon and IngramSpark and all the audiobooks and all of those sorts of places as well as Book Depository. You name it, it's out there. That one’s called Relentless and it's the story of bringing my mum back after a massive aneurysm left her with hardly any higher brain function, in a diagnosis where the medical professionals were telling me there was no way back for her at the age of 74, the brain damage was just too massive. They were wrong. This book is about empowering people. This is what this whole podcast is about. And what my whole life is about is taking control of your health, being preventative, educating yourself, and looking outside the square and connecting with the right people and, doing all that sort of stuff. So I'd love you to go and grab that book. And please share it too with your friends. If you like the book, get them to buy a copy too and help support the book. Getting it out there, and reviews and ratings for the book are really helpful too on either goodreads.com or you can just email me. I'd also love to hear from you if you are enjoying the podcast. Reach out to us if you've got any questions around any of the topics that we've brought up. We'd love to engage with you on support@lisatamati.com. Right well, now we'll go over to the lovely Kim who I absolutely treasure. She's a wonderful woman. I do hope You enjoy this podcast with Kim Morrison. Lisa: Well, hi everyone and welcome back to pushing the limits. Today I have one of my very dear friends Kim Morrison back on the show. Kim, welcome to Pushing the Limits again. Kim Morrison: Such a treat to be with you, my friend.  Lisa: We're just being ravishing. We couldn't stop talking to actually get the recording done, because we just got so much to like, (blah blah noise). Kim: We almost should have recorded what we just created. Lisa: All the cool people we've got to meet. I've got to introduce you to this person and this person. So yeah, we love swapping and collaborating and doing lots of crazy things.  So Kim, for those of you who don't know, you and most people should because you're world-famous and you're the author of six books. You're a mum, you're—you have your own amazing company. But tell us a little bit about Kim Morrison. Who’s Kim Morrison? Where are you sitting at the moment? Kim: On the Sunshine Coast. World-famous and world tellers is what I’d say. I'm here on the Sunshine Coast. Obviously a kiwi, grew up in New Zealand, married Danny Morrison, a former New Zealand cricketer, fast-paced bowler and we had an incredible life. Then our world got turned upside down when sadly we lost a sister to suicide. And then Danny went through his own world of emotions. And as you can imagine being a top international athlete, to now a father of two, a mortgage, losing a sister, and then we lost our house. Then we lost a whole lot of money that we'd invested. All of a sudden, I think Danny started to question who the frick he was.  To watch that as a wife, a partner and someone that you love kept pushing me further down the rabbit hole and understanding what makes us tick. Why do people struggle? Why do people go through tough times? What is the meaning of it? So that took me on a journey after writing a number of books around essential oils.  My passion was plants and aromatherapy and our connection to nature. And I've really, I've dabbled in a whole lot of things like nutrition and home-botanical therapy. And then lately, in the last few years, probably since writing my book, The Art of Self-Love, it's really been a quest, the last, six to ten years on, again, why do we have to go through tough times? And what does it actually mean? So lately, I've been doing a whole lot of mind work around things like neuro-linguistic programming, hypnosis, and really getting to understand how we tick and what makes us put meaning into life situations which then can calibrate into our physiology, which then calibrates into our immunology, which then calibrates into our health and wellness.  It's been a really cool journey. Lots of ups, lots of downs. I'm not sitting here saying my life's been easy. I've been through a lot of downs myself. And knowing that often hitting the rock bottom parts of life, whilst you're in it, the worst thing is to think that there's a lesson in this. ‘Oh, my gosh, I'm going to be coming out so amazing’ when you're in the throes of it. If someone even suggests that you're going to have come out of– Lisa: Both! Kim: Yeah, exactly. But we all know when we look back on our lives, dear Lisa,  there is always a learning, there is always an opportunity for growth. But you can take it one of two ways you can turn it into a power part of your life or a petty part of your life. You can become the victor or the victim. And that's where I love working with people who choose the victor strategy. How do I learn from this? Lisa: Wow, the victor strategy. You either become a victim or a victor. I love it. It's just so beautifully put. We've both been through rocky roads and most people have, if you get to our age. You've had some shit thrown at you. Some of your own doing some not your own doing. And okay, what can we learn out of this? And how can we grow from this so that we just are able to carry on and we were talking before about the journey I've been on with losing my dad six months ago or seven months ago and how, trying to stand back up from that. Trying to make something positive out of the horrific situation which is still too fresh to fully have that formed. But it will be his legacy. He will have a legacy because of this. And I believe that he's helping me on the other side. I'm pretty damn sure of that.  That he's making things happen and the good time. But we all go through these things and we all go through times where we think ‘I can't get up again'.  So you've written a book called The Art of Self-Love. You do a heck of a lot. You have a podcast all around the space of loving yourself. And this isn't just whoo-whoo stuff. This is real stuff. This is like, how do I accept myself? Love myself? Learn from this? Grow from this? You've had some amazing people on your show, some amazing guests. What are some of the things that you've learned just in the last year working on your podcasts and so on? Kim: It's been phenomenal. I think the biggest thing that I love is you are the result of the five people you spend your most time with. So that includes family, and sometimes that can be tough. Therefore, the most important thing of all is—look, we can have a significant event happen in our lives that can bring us to our knees, which causes a whole lot of emotional trauma. Then we perceive that event. Then depending on our upbringing, our circumstances, our values, our beliefs, our meta-programs. How we generalize, distort and delete things. How we actually filter for what we're thinking of that meaning. Then creates a physiology within the body, which then creates a state, and then our emotions come out, which then drives our behaviour.  So it's fascinating, and the way I can explain this is if you grew up with siblings, and you had the privilege of having, say, the same mom and dad the whole way through. If you asked each of the siblings what they thought of their childhood, you may find a very different perception or meaning of what they've put onto that. And that's based on the filter system.  We all know that between the ages of naught and seven is pretty much the imprinting stage. So whatever happens usually in those naught to seven years, we create meaning. We're an absorber of information. So if you grew up with a mom that was frantic and full-on and was doing the best she could. Let's face it, everybody's done the best they could with the resources they have or don't have. But let's say that you heard, as a little four-year-old girl, your mom and dad fighting one night. They were having an argument, and let's say it was about money. Maybe your dad just lost his job. But as a four-year-old, you don't understand all of this. But you come to the door because you're worried you can hear and it doesn't feel real. And then your dad says to you, ‘Go away. This is not to do with you’. Or says something that you've heard it in a way that now means you'd now go into your room, you calibrate that into your physiology, that the next time a male or a man shouts, you've taken it to mean, perhaps you're not good enough, or it's your fault. Now you can imagine throughout your life now, you start building scenarios. Your reticular activation system is now on alert. That now every time you hear a man or a male, argue, or fight, or scream, or yell or have anger, you’re now drawn to it. So you're now filtering for it. Because on the other side of that, because to have a problem, you also have to not have a problem. Or to have heat, you also have to have cold to understand the polarities of that. You now also know that to look for love in your life, you're now going to look for the polarity opposite of that, which is mean yelling. Or maybe it could be in the form of your boss. It could be in the form of a teacher. It could be in the form of a friend.  Lisa: You're going to be a travel expert.  Kim: So it fascinates me, Lisa, that the meaning we put into our early childhood can then become what our life becomes or doesn't become. Now the cool thing about that is when you have awareness around it, you can also undo this. If you've had the physiology or a life of not having great relationships, and you've never. If we could take you back through hypnosis or through different timeline strategies, and we can get you back to the place where you first put meaning and had a limiting belief around that, then we can easily take the lessons from it, learn it, and undo everything. And it's not about unwinding or stopping those memories. It's not about that. It's just realizing why you've created a certain behaviour to have that result. And the thing I love about it is that when you realize it and have an awareness around who you are and what you've been doing, the world becomes your oyster. And we stop blaming, we stop becoming the victim, we stop being in denial, we stop making excuses for our life. And we actually take accountability, responsibility and ownership for every single thing.  Now that means we're things that happened to us like you just said. So again, it doesn't matter what happens to you. It's your reaction to it that matters. It's how you perceive it that matters. Because we can't control their outside world as much as we've tried to change partners and kids and parents and families and friends. As much as we've tried to change people, do any of us want to be changed or told we're doing it wrong? Probably not. So it actually teaches you a way on how to perceive it in a way that you do it with love. And as far as I'm concerned, I can speak to the biggest scientists on the planet. I can speak to the most intelligent humans on this planet. And ultimately it all comes back to us desiring the ability to love and be loved. Lisa: There is a whole purpose of us being here, I'm pretty damn sure of it. But if, without getting into the whole spiritual silence, what I've been looking at—wWhen you lose a loved one, you start looking at what's on the other side, and what is the reason of life. And I do think it is all connected to love. That is so fascinating.  I just met a Dr Don Ward, who I'm going to introduce you to, who works with trauma, and people who have been through trauma. And he said we have this like—talks about the reticular activating system and how we filter for things. I can so relate to that analogy that you gave there. And he gave a story in his life with his wife who'd had a difficult childhood and a dad who would do a lot of yelling. So then he said his wife was hyper-vigilant to that in his voice, even if he just said, ‘Oh, I don't like that’, and she would immediately be filtering for that. ‘What have I doing wrong’? because of that fear response that was already programmed into her.  He talks about taking these memories. It could be a minor trauma, but it ends up being a big thing that you frame yourself for and limit your beliefs. And I think, like, when you're a child, you don't have that understanding of, mum might have been just a bit stressed and told you ‘you're just a naughty little girl', And then you've just taken that away, and I'm a bad person. Forever and a day, now it's in my life. It can be that simple. And yet it was just mum having a bad day and was a bit stressed and yelled at you, which really shouldn't have had that impact. And as an adult, you wouldn't have taken that. But as a child, you've not been able to filter that.  So what he does, and also with big trauma, he's worked with lots of vets and people that have been blown up and bombs and lost legs and horrible things. He says, you have this memory that is in High Definition movie. And it's trauma, right? And it’s so real and vivid in your memory banks. And anything can trigger it. So it might be a song or smell, a person, an event, and it will just, you're immediately back there in that trauma, and you're reliving it. That creates an emotional response in the body. And what he does through his program is similar to what the hypnosis, I imagine, is take that high definition movie and turn it into a black-and-white picture that's still in your brain, but no longer causes a physiological response because we get stuck in this loop. We're looping around those thoughts and that experience and experiencing it in real-time because your brain doesn't differentiate if this was 20 years ago or it's now. If you think back to a horrible event in your life, that was really traumatic feeling for you, you will have all of those physiological responses in real-time right now because the brain doesn't know. You're actually bringing it out into your body. And this is where the whole thing about psycho-neuro-immunology comes into it. Where everything that's going on in our brain is fixed and is stuck in our biology and expresses through our biology. And you've obviously been deeper into this world than I have of late. I'm really just scratching the surface. But how do you think that affects us from a health perspective? Kim: If you think we are made up of 50 trillion cells, and every one of those cells is communicating and it's got a whole incredible unconscious way of sustaining life. And when we think about it consciously, I mean, you're not thinking about your left finger now growing right now, although you might be now because I brought attention to it. But unconsciously so much is happening because of the programming, because of the ability of the body to do what it does and create what we call homeostasis.  So if you have a traumatic experience, and you get triggered by that, let's say, well, I've got a girlfriend who was in—sadly, her story's amazing, I'll get you to get her on your podcast. But basically, she lost her fiance to suicide. She was so traumatized, but within a year, she just couldn't get over it so she decided, on his one year anniversary, she'd go to Bali to take her life.  She had two girl friends who knew that she wasn't right so they went with her. That night, they went out to the Sari Club, and we all may be aware of the Bali bombings that went off. Now, one minute Karen's thinking of going to Bali to take her life. The next minute she is pushed through a burning wall and running for her life. So her physiology—and by the way, she lost her two friends out of that experience so now she feels responsible for three people stiff.  So you can imagine for her what that meant, and her story is phenomenal as she goes into a world of six years of depression. Now what brings her out of it is obviously a lot of self-work. But her dad talking about, his nickname for her as Buffy. And he says to her, he had her on his knee, she's a woman in her late 30s at this point, and he has her sitting on her knee and says ‘Buffy, we've all got to—some time, the caterpillar has got to go through a transformational process to come out the other side and become the butterfly’. And, for some reason, maybe he’s been saying it for those six years, but for some reason, on that day, she heard it. And she has gone on this exploratory path of what is it that has us physiologically turned into this thing called depression. And these are her words, not mine. She believes depression is a choice. So she says you go to sleep every night, you fall asleep, you might be depressed as you fall asleep but as you go to sleep into the unconscious part of sleep, you are no longer depressed. But the minute, not the minute, the moment you wake up, you're not depressed, until the memory kicks in, of who you are, your story in your life, and now all of a sudden, you're living depression.  I'm not undermining depression for anyone listening. And I'm certainly not an expert in that field. But I found it interesting that she feels depression is a choice. So when you think about that, your biology, and what's happening at a physiological level like you say, at a cell level, if you are believing—and by the way, the reason why I said that is if a balloon popped, or champagne cork went off, the explosion of that triggered her exactly into that time and place. So it takes time, effort and energy and real work on self to overcome these traumas. Now we're not born with a rulebook or a guide book. And our parents aren’t born with a book on how to help us psychologically. We're all traversing this pathway with the best that we possibly can. And so I share that in the hope and realisation that for many of us, suicide is not the answer. And I say that with a disclaimer, that it's really important that in these times of worry and fear and stress and overwhelm, that you seek help if you're feeling like your world is closing in. You're not your own coach. You're not your own best coach. Your partner's not necessarily the best coach or mentor for you through these times. Neither are your parents. So sometimes we need professional help.  And what I love about these days is, if you're seeing a psychologist, in my mom's day, you're seen as a little bit weak. Whereas today, I think you're seen as profoundly intelligent, emotionally intelligent to get that support. So whether it's hypnosis, aroma-therapy, psychology, NLP, getting a coach, getting a mentor, it doesn't matter what it is. And there's a lot of free help out there. If you search it in podcasts like this, that really dive into one realm if you go down the science link, but my real passion sits in the heart space. And if you love who you are, then I believe you have awareness when you're not in love with yourself. And if you take care of yourself, then we know that that helps you one step, one moment, one breath at a time. You're better off, doing something nice for yourself making a green smoothie than you are drinking a bottle of wine. I'm not saying that a bottle of wine with a girl friend and pouring your heart out and having a good cry isn't healthy. But it’s not your crutch. Anything can become a crutch too. Lisa: It’s not to become your crutch, right?  Anything can become an addiction. Kim: An addiction is not a great place to be either. So we know that if you can find a way one step, one breath at a time. Whether it's free, or if you have the money to invest. And let's face it, most people's biggest excuses for why they don't work on themselves is time and money. And I'm here to tell you that I think it's absolute bullshit, that it's not time and money. It's about whether or not you make yourself a priority because we all know if you, let me say this to your listeners. If someone that you loved was hanging off a cliff, and that means that in order to save them you had to have a weekly message until the end of this year. To save them you would find the time and the money to do it. Now that might seem a bit extreme. But I promise you when you are faced like you have been with your mum and your dad, everything goes aside until you put that at the forefront. So it's about prioritization and the moment you–. Lisa: And I’m not even feeling guilty for it.  Kim: Except when we look at guilt, sometimes that, even that emotion of guilt is an interesting one. So we feel guilt because we're doing something for ourselves, which is taking away from something else perhaps. And even that's interesting.  So when I look at the emotion of guilt, it's because we're doing something maybe selfishly. Well, what if we could reframe that into investing in ourselves. As a mum, putting a child into daycare, or having a babysitter every now and again so that you can go out or going for a weekly massage? If we look at that as guilt, if you really look at this—this is something interesting and I just want you to think about this. That lot of guilt is it that we're using that as a frame to hide the fact that some days being a mother is fricking hard work. And some days, we actually may hate it. And some days, maybe we are so exhausted, so mentally, physically, emotionally exhausted that we hate it so much. That we then feel bad because we've yelled, we've screamed, we've not been the best version of ourselves. And then we put it into mother guilt. We frame it in that where some days, we just fricking—we don't like it.  I think if we could own those emotions more and own the fact that it doesn't feel great some days, own up but with power, not victim mentality, then I think we would actually be more honest. And we would actually say, that's when I always say, have a bestie that you can call who's not going to go into the gossip-victim mentality, but the ‘I'm hearing you girlfriend’. And then at the end of that, you say, ‘What do you want to do about it? And what's your purpose for this belief, or this feeling right now? And what can you learn from it’? To have a girlfriend or a mate or partner or a friend who says ‘What can we learn from this’? is one of the best friends you could have in your corner. That is psychotherapy and psychology at its best.  What can you learn from this? And sometimes it's very hard to look at the lessons when you're in the throes of it and when emotions are high, intelligence is very low. So that might not be the question that we ask when someone's highly volatile and emotional. But to be a good listener, to hear someone pour their heart out. Often as we talk it to someone that's listening, truly listening without trying to fix us. When you're listening, we often talk through the process out loud, because I believe all humans have all traits and all humans have all resources within them to help heal themselves. But sometimes we just need to hear it. And I don't know about you, Lisa, but sometimes as I'm talking through my problem, I realize how stupid it is, or how benign it sounds. Or how relatively benign it is compared to what someone else is going through. So to have a good listening friend, or to be that listening friend, is sometimes one of the best fast track pathways into self-care which motorizes you right into the heart of self-love. Here's my third thing. I'm gonna put a caveat on that. That takes discipline. Without discipline, you can care for yourself and go on to the airy fairy land of woe and spirituality, and, oh, my gosh, this is all teaching me lots without responsibility, then that is not serving you. The discipline of waking up every day and physically doing something with that beautiful vehicle of yours with 50 trillion cells. Whether it's five minutes of tricep dips and push-ups just in your bedroom before you get dressed. Whether it's going for a 30-minute walk. Whether it's push and pushing yourself. We know the physiology of pushing the body actually puts you out of your comfort zone, which changes your cell structure. And when you change that, you get more clarity. And when you have more clarity, you make better decisions.  As you get to know yourself more and understand the triggers in your life, your responses, the victim mentality, you start to realize that you don't stop having problems, you just have bigger problems, Lisa. So you might be having a problem that's, ‘I'm not sure whether I should run in the Gold Coast hinterland this weekend because I've got the weekend off’ or whether your problem is trying to emotionally deal with the fact that your father never told you he loved you. Well, they're both problems. But I can tell you which problem I'd rather be traversing and working out. Because I've worked out the fact that maybe, and this isn't me personally, but my dad didn't tell me he loved me or maybe I experienced a very significant abuse. Or maybe I had a traumatic experience that now I'm working on to understand what it means to me. I think you'd agree with me. Every person you've had on your podcast or every person you've ever met, the ones we admire and love the most are the ones that have actually gone to hell and back. But they've found a way out. It's the comeback story. Google and The Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell. It's a six minute video to watch. We all go through The Hero's Journey where we want adventure, we want to go out on a limb, we want to do things. But then we find dragons and people putting us down or pulling us out. And then we traverse through that hardship, and we come out battered and beaten and torn and spat out.  But as we come through that we realize the adventure becomes amazing treasure. And through the treasures we find, we expand and evolve. And as we expand and evolve, we become a better human. And we then go on a new adventure. There’s more dragons. There's more people spitting on us and things. But that is the circle of life, right. If we could just understand that it's at our darkest times, we actually are revealed. Your strength comes through, your courage, your determination, your tenacity, your resilience is what shows up. Or you have the potential to discover when we go through it. Because when life's great, it's great. We don't tend to push ourselves so much when it's great. And that's the cool thing, we get to have a rest when life's great. Lisa: I always say this to people when I'm speaking.  Kim: I say this with hand on heart, to those of you going through a tough time I have something for you—this too shall pass. Lisa: One of my favourite sayings of the world. Kim: Absolutely. And then I also say to those of you in a really good place in your life, I've got some advice for you—this too shall pass. So we know that life is ebb and flow, high and low, in and out, dark and light. If we could come to accept that, then that is self-love. That is realising that actually when life's good, I'm going to learn more. I'm going to listen to different podcasts. I'm going to maybe study something. I'm going to read something. And I say read, not on a technology thing, I mean read a book. I’m going to immerse myself. I'm going to go to a retreat or a breakthrough. I'm going to take on coaching and mentoring. Because we don't want to just be great versions of ourselves, we want to be exceptional versions of ourselves.  And to do that, it's great to work on ourselves when life's great. Because then when the life hits us or the storm, or I'll say you either get a tap, a whack or a Mack. You'll get a tap when someone taps you or something upsets you. You'll get a whack when maybe you're thrown off guard or you've lost your job or your relationships over. We get a Mack Truck, major illness, losing someone, and it sideswipes you to the point where you're on your knees and you can't breathe. But if you've got those tools of resilience inside of you, or you know where to go as you breathe through each moment.  And let's face it, in order to heal it, you truly have to feel it. So that means we can't hide the emotions from any of these. Or that we say ‘Oh, everything's great’ when it's fricking not. Owning it with power and not telling your story as a victim is painful. But owning it and then saying but you know what I'm seeing someone or I'm doing this or I'm using my oils or listening to this podcast with Lisa Tamati. And I've literally met this amazing supplement that I think is actually going to work for me right now. Whatever you hear, don't take it for granted. And always trust that what you're hearing in the moment is a beautiful sign. There's always signs and opportunity of growth, passion, love and development. It just means that what your reticular activation system is filtering for. And whether you're looking for the good or more of the shit that you've just been through. Lisa: Explain that RAS, Kim. What is it? Kim: Well, we know there's a part of the brain that has memories. It has filters. It has this whole belief system. But let's look at it this way. What's your favourite car? Or what's a car you dream to own if you don't have it right now? Lisa: Probably… Kim: You’re not really probably not that materialistic. Lisa: I drive around in a 20-year-old car. Let's just say a Ferrari just for the sake of… A red Ferrari. Kim: A red Ferrari. Sometimes we could call that a penis extinction or a mid-life crisis awakening. But anyway, what's a nice car you like? Lisa: Oh, I like Jaguars.  Kim: Jaguars. Let’s go with that. And what colour? Lisa: A wine-coloured one. Kim: Ah, wine-coloured. So that beautiful burgundy wine-coloured Jaguar? Lisa: Yeah, not very common, probably. So probably not a good example. But you know what I mean? Kim: However, it's now in your mindset. It's now in your memory. It's now in your reticular activation system. It's now a part—it’s become out of the 2 million bits of information we receive each day, we actually only have access to 136 bits. So I want you to think about that 2 million bits of information that is coming at you. But we are actually only able to process 136 in our consciousness. Because if you think about it, to access and process 2 million bits we'd be in constant burnout and overwhelm. So those 136 bits now we've just been spoken about a burgundy coloured Jaguar. That's come really close into the forefront of your reticular activation system. So you may find over the next 24 - 48 hours, you might just happen to see one. That's because you're now filtering for it.  You've got 136 bits of that seed. And particularly if we put it to the front of our values, and it became a value. Let's say, car’s not necessarily a high value. But being able to transport yourself or take people to and from places or you love adventure, and travelling. You have a real high value for adventure, a car is part of that. And so now, adventure is one of the highest values on your list of life values. Within that, if we dig deeper is the burgundy-coloured Jaguar. Now you're actually going to see it every time you're thinking of adventure. You might think now, actually ‘Bloody dammit, I've worked really hard, I deserve this’. And now all of a sudden, you start seeing ads for Jaguars or you start thinking. That's what we mean about pulling in the 136 bits of information into the reticular activation system. And now you're seeing it, now you're proving it. Lisa: And this is why goal setting works, isn't it. Because you've set a goal. You've made that as a priority. So it's a scary one. And then everything that will help you get towards your goal, your subconscious is picking up those things and then saying, ‘hey, be aware of this’. So if you decide you want to run a marathon, it's probably a good example with us two crazy runners. Or ex-crazy runners. You start seeing articles about running and videos on running. You'll be aware of runners running around your neighbourhood that you might have ignored before because suddenly this has become a goal.  So your brain is going, ‘Oh, you wanted this? Well, I'm just making you aware. Here's some tools to get there’. So that's a really good example of the RAS selection really. Kim: You got to remember too, and I want to make this really clear, it's something that I've learned just lately. If you have a goal to run a marathon, and it's really high in your priorities. You start off in the first week, and you're doing the pro there's maybe a 12-week program. Maybe they're doing one of your the Neal's program. Maybe they've got one of these things. And they’re in week one. They're highly enthusiastic and excited. Week two, they’re a bit sore. It’s hurting a bit, and they have DOMS setting in and now it's like it's not getting easier. In fact, the more you train, the more you realize that even though you don't realize you're getting better and stronger, you're pushing yourself more. And, so you're feeling worse. So by week three, usually within those 21 days, we're starting to go maybe a marathon isn't the goal at all. Or you still keep saying it's a marathon but now you're not going out for the longer run. Now what's happened is your goal is not matching your value.  Now, this is the real essence of the work. How do we make running a marathon one of your highest values? If I listed all your values, you may find health or adventure or pushing the limits or expanding yourself is number 10 on the list. Lisa: And therefore won't get– Kim: It's not gonna get done. Which is why so many of us, we set New Year's goals.  We join a gym, we go along. And then we basically make a donation to that gym for the rest of the year. So the important thing to realize is that you have to have your goal aligned with your top three values. And if it's not aligned with any of your top three values, you're going to need some integration work to bring it up there if it's something you really want. Because otherwise, that's where the excuses come in or you get an injury. Was it an injury? Or was your subconscious mind delivering you the possibilities that you didn't have to do it? I find health and injuries and disease, and all of those things.  I think if you've read Bruce Lipton's book, The Biology of Belief, you'll know that what we believe we perceive. Where focus goes, energy flows. So if you have all of these things in your mind, if your focus is now on all sore and injury and it's too hard, I don't want to do it. Bang! You're going to find your energy goes that way. It flows that way. And hello, now you've got a reason, an excuse to physically pull out of the marathon. So you know, people would say ‘oh, no, I didn't mean to trip over the washing basket'. Well, how come for the last 365 days, the washing basket could have been there but you never– The unconscious mind is one of the most powerful places to work, which is why I love hypnosis. Which is why I love timeline therapy. Which is why I love getting into. If you look at a mountain, the snow part on the top is your conscious mind. But in fact, everything underneath which is driving your behaviour, is driving your feelings, your beliefs and your values is actually the tip of the iceberg.  That's right 95% of it is definitely coming from the unconscious mind. Lisa: Yeah, and this is why we need to do the deep work. You just reminded me of a couple of things. Everytime that I do a big mess of a race in the past, I would get sick, or I'd have an injury or something would happen. And usually in the week or two weeks before the actual event. It was like my body's going, ‘I'm gonna stop you because I want you’... A part of me doesn't want to do it’. So you’re going to chuck a few obstacles.   You have to understand that when you override that, and you keep going, often that injure or that niggle, whatever that was, disappears. I saw that, firsthand, time and time again. And even when I was running through New Zealand, and I was doing 70Ks a day, and I was getting weaker and sicker and really, just absolutely blown apart after two weeks. And I didn't stop though, because I had an amazing team and I had a big why. Why I was doing this: charities and big responsibilities, so I keep going despite horrific pain and all the rest of it. Then my body went, ‘Oh, it's just not stopping, we better get on board with this’. And it got stronger and stronger. From the two-week point up until the six-week point, I actually got stronger and stronger. And I thought that it's all over. I could have a walking stick. I was walking, I wasn't running. I was having to go down sideways downhills, because my shins were so bad. And when I still kept going, then the brain went, ‘Well, we better get on with it because she's not going to stop, obviously’. And that's a really good example.  One of the other things I wanted to bring up because motivation follows action, not the other way around. So like when you don't feel like going training today, which is pretty much me every day. I don't feel like it, but I take action, I do something I might be just putting on my gym gear. And I've said this before, put on your gear, walk out the door, go to the letterbox and then see. Often, when you've just taken that couple of steps of action, then you're in the movement and you're like, ‘Oh, well, I'm out here, now muscle go’. Then it gets easier and easier and then you're in the flow of it. It's the anticipation, sometimes, that stops you. And when you just get up, doing the press-ups in the morning, before I do anything else. I go and have a cold shower or do my heart rate monitoring my HRV. All the breath-hold techniques, and then I come out of the shower. Then I often do like my press-ups and stuff before I sit down at the computer. Because I've done it and if you have little tiny habits that you build in. It might be just teeny press-ups or teeny sit-ups. Every time you go to the loo. Whatever the case maybe you set these little wee micro-goals that you can't fail it. And that action creates motivation. Because you've actually done a little bit and you're pleased with yourself and that creates its own reward loop type of thing. A lot of what you were saying was just lots. That's exactly what Paul Taylor, I've just had on my show. I'm gonna do Dr Don, would you know. All of this is very, very similar.  So, Kim, I want to go now into hypnosis because this is something that fascinates me. I haven't studied it. I want to, it's on my to-do list at some point in time. Tell me how the heck does that work and what's involved with the hypnosis process?  Kim: It's pretty cool. It's tapping directly into the unconscious mind. And I could use language with us right here and now where I could get us all into a very relaxed state. And every breath that you're taking, we're getting more and more relaxed. And as we relax more, we learn more. And the more we learn, the more we hear. And as we’re hearing new thoughts and opportunities, the more we realize we're capable of everything and anything. That's because we're extraordinary. So as I talk like that, and as I speak to you like that, it's almost putting you into a subconscious trance, which is kind of has your mind scrambling and not having to consciously think. Your mind kind of goes on this beautiful journey. It's in that space, where you, I believe, we tap into the heart space. And when we tap into the heart or the unconscious space, we can put new meanings past the critical factor, past that critical person who knocks you or puts you down all the time. Here’s another question. If you hear yourself knocking yourself, who's talking? If you're listening, who's talking? And if it's you're saying it, who's listening? So I love the rabbit hole of the unconscious mind because it gets you realizing that everything is about programming. Everything is programmed. And so we want to program excellent computers.  Which is why when we watch people who do amazing things, we want to model ourselves off them or we want to learn how they did it. Which is why I love NLP and hypnosis together. But hypnosis really is the ability to tap into the unconscious mind, bypassing the critical factor so that we can get to the heart, the juice, the unconscious mind to create change. So that when you come out the other side, you see possibility and opportunity. Not all the negative shite that you were saying before, we may have had the session.  And I think it's just accessing it. We spend most of our time consciously thinking. Yet as I said at the beginning when was the last time you gave thanks to your fingernail for growing or your digestive juices for doing what they're doing or your hair growing or those bald maybe not growing, but it's a really beautiful thing. And I think things like flotation tank massage. Times when you get to deeply truly relax, when we let go of the physiology of tension around us actually allows the cells to almost breathe. If we breathe, if you followed Wim Hof or any of the amazing work with breath or James Nestor whose book I just—I love James Nestor’s book. Lisa: I’ll introduce you. Kim: Who, James or Wim? Lisa: James. And Patrick McKeown as well. Kim: I love that book Breathe, changed the way I looked at my breathing. I’ve been taping my mouth at night because we can go without food for a month. I've heard of people go a year without food. We can go weeks without water. But we can't go many seconds or many minutes without breath. Breath is the essence of life. And when we go into a state of hypnosis, we are really letting go of the breath. And as we let go of the breath, we actually are able to access the intelligence of the cells. Intelligence of the higher vibration. Without going too wacky, I guess the other way to look at it is that we operate, we're aware that we can measure the speed of light. And I can't remember the exact measurement of it right now but it's bloody fast. But everything below that is all measurable. And from a conscious level, we understand it, you know, we've got vibrational frequency of plants, of oils, of food. We understand that there's a vibrational frequency to all things. But above the speed of light, where we go into the zero point field of quantum physics and true possibility and infinity. That's where the mind just– . It's so big and so bizarre, that you actually can't do anything but surrender to it and feel all possibility.  I guess the way to look at that, to try and bring it into some realm, is if we put one of our blood cells, if we put blood under a microscope, we would go down, and we'd see there's a whole lot of cells. Then we'd go further into the cell and then we'd see a whole cell and within the cell is a whole lot of stuff and life. Proteins and cytoplasm, DNA and RNA. But then if we go right into the DNA and RNA, we go further into that you'll see there's even more microcosms of cells and systems and structure. And if you keep going, the more you go, the more you see. There is nothing but space. Lisa: There is only vibration. Kim: And space. And then there's just the vibration. Lisa: And this is science. There is nothing there. They’re just energy. Kim: And we could do it to the chair you're sitting on. We could slice through a piece of that. And when the more we go into each of the wooden chairs, or this chair that you're sitting on structure, you'll see that that becomes nothing. And we can go the other way where we go up into us, here right now. From our cells into our blood systems, to our body, to our human system, to our environment, to our community, the place we live, into the planet, then we go beyond the planet into the galaxy, and then we realize the galaxies beyond the galaxies, all of a sudden, we're back to nothing. So we can go macro or micro. but the joy of this ride into quantum physics is that it means that everything means nothing, and nothing is no thing and no thing is everything and everything is something.  When I start doing that with my mind, it makes you realize that actually, if I bring it right back into that significant emotional event that occurred when I was a five-year-old girl. I just, through my own filter systems, through my own values, beliefs and upbringing, my personality, all of those meta-programs going on, I made it mean something. And I love this idea. What if life had no meaning? And it had no meaning that it had no meaning. What if we could actually realize that everything we think is true is actually just a limiting belief of perception of our idea of reality. That in fact, the only reality, the only truth I could actually give you right here right now, is that you and I both know, there's two truths, probably. One truth is that the sun will come up tomorrow. Whether we see it or not is another thing but we do know it’s the truth, the sun will come up tomorrow. And the other truth is we will all die at some point. But even that's up for debate because do we die? Or do we go to another realm in which we didn’t have past and future lives and soul journey? So I don't know. Lisa: We could go like a huge, and I’ll be– no, I'm fascinated by quantum physics. And most of it, to be honest, is beyond my grasp, it’s a little brainy. But I know that there’s these bigger things out there and I'd love to riff with you for a couple hours on this subject. But we'd probably, people will be getting ‘what the hell are they talking about’? Kim: What I'd love to say though, is just to finish off there, is just to realize that everything you've ever experienced is just a belief. It's not truth, it's just your perception. So it's never the truth. It's always up for bid, based on how you believe and see and perceive the world. Which is why there's conflict, which is why we have arguments. But wouldn't it be beautiful, if I could just for a minute, put my shoe, try because I never could. But if I put my shoes and feet into your shoes just for a moment, and imagine it from your perception, your beliefs and your reality, I actually have more understanding. Lisa: And more empathy. Kim: I may not agree with it, I may not like it. But, my gosh, it's interesting that it's from your perspective. So every time we feel ourselves triggered, or every time we feel ourselves going into a place of anger or frustration or guilt or sadness or whatever that driving emotion is. Rather than sitting in the whirlpool of mud pit of it, ask yourself this question: For what purpose am I feeling this? Why? Or even just the question why? Why am I sad? Well, I'm sad, because he said that. Why does what he says make you sad? Well, because it's not fear? Why is not fear, not fear? Well, because I don't feel like I'm listened to. Why is it important that you're listened to? Because I feel so alone. Why are you feeling alone? Because I don't love myself.  If you really go to the core of all of it, I promise you, it almost gets back to the fear of not being loved or the fear of not being accepted. That's what everything that drives these emotions in our behaviours comes from. Lisa: Wow, that is just absolutely amazing. And it's all automatic. Like we had these, Dr Daniel Amen talks about these automatic negative thoughts that just pop up all the time. And if we can separate ourselves out from our own brain, our own subconscious, our own programming, and just observe how these automatic thoughts just keep coming at you all the time. And then if you let them go, they'll go again. Kim: Or know that those negative thoughts are part of the human experience. They are actually from an evolutionary, anthropological development point of view. We had to be on alert for the sabre-toothed tiger, we had to be watching our tribe or our kids, we had to be there. But we actually spiked ourselves into sympathetic dominants very quickly with that. Years gone by we also pushed ourselves very quickly back down into parasympathetic place. We had peace just to digest. Years today, we're living in the sympathetic dominant’s world.  So I just say with you, as the negative thought comes in, even ask that question, why am I thinking that and keep doing that? I always say our seven why's, and b

This week we are "traveling" to upstate New York to the land of mountain resorts of yore in the Catskill Mountains in New York. Fadra Nally from All Things Fadra fills us in on what is different in this region from the times of Dirty Dancing and The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel and why it makes a great spot for an outdoor-focused girlfriend getaway with waterfalls, wine, and shopping or a family vacation destination with hiking, kayaking and more. About Fadra Nally Fadra is a blogger and podcaster focusing on the lighter side of cars, entertainment, and travel. Her favorite destinations are as close as West Virginia and as far away as Saudi Arabia. You can find her online at AllThingsFadra.com, or on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter. Tips for Visiting the Catskills The Catskills are located just about two hours north of New York City and cover 700,000 acres over four counties, with the Hudson River creating the eastern border. While the Catskills were popular in the 1950s, especially with families in NYC, many of those all-inclusive type of family resorts are no longer there. Dirty Dancing was based on a resort called Grossinger's, which is no longer operating, but it was actually filmed in Virginia and North Carolina. The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel episodes in the Catskills were filmed at a family-run resort called Scott's Family Resort at Oquaga Lake. The Catskills are a good four-season destination, with skiing and winter sports in the winter, great hiking year-round, and beautiful fall foliage in October. However, some activities and attractions may only be open from May to October. There are a lot of breweries, wineries, and distilleries in the Catskill region. Kaaterskill Falls is one of the tallest in New York State at 260 feet, which is higher than Niagara Falls. It is approximately a one-mile hike, including a series of stairs, to reach the top and an overlook. Some trail heads may be closed so look online to find alternatives. There are many cute towns with great bookstores, restaurants, and boutiques for shopping. There are many cabin rentals that you can find on Airbnb that are perfect for a self-contained getaway where you can either cook or bring in take out. Mohonk Mountain House near New Paltz is a great hotel to stay at or even visit for brunch and then enjoy the hiking trails on the grounds. Catskill, Kingston,and Hudson are all great little towns to set up a home base. Fadra stayed in Cocksackie on the water, which has a smaller downtown that is undergoing a revitalization to make it a wedding destination. Cocksackie has a great bottle shop and Chez Figata is a good restaurant to try for dinner. If you go further west in the Catskills you will find more resorts and mountains. It is a great destination for a girlfriend getaway, romantic getaway, or a family vacation. The Kartrite Resort in the Catskills is great for families and has an indoor waterpark. Fadra stayed at an Airbnb called Heron's View. Be sure to plan in advance if you are going to rent a cabin or vacation home. [00:00:00.150] - Kim Where can you find Waterfalls, wine and shopping just a couple of hours from New York City? Stay tuned to find out.   [00:00:18.730] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel.   [00:00:33.700] - Kim So, Tamara, we are in February. And, you know, things are starting to change a bit in the travel sector. I feel like we've been in a pretty standard operating procedure. But we recently had some big news come out for people that are planning to fly into the United States, and that is that they are going to require a negative covid test.   [00:00:56.890] - Tamara Yeah, and I think that's a big deal. I'm thinking of people that have done some trips like to the Caribbean especially. I've been seeing a lot of that or Mexico. And now to think about how you are going to get that test on the way back, otherwise you're not going to be allowed home. Tt's something you have to really take into consideration. I think in the past, we've thought about testing to leave, but not testing to come back. So definitely a change.   [00:01:23.920] - Kim Yeah, I think it makes sense. It seems good. I'll be honest where we're at with not traveling at all. It seems odd that people are traveling to the Caribbean and Mexico.   [00:01:34.420] - Kim But I know that some people are choosing to do that and definitely still planning vacations and traveling and stuff. But I think this is definitely going to be an extra layer of logistics that they have to consider. I know you had mentioned some testing might be done at airports or such, but I know I've received a couple of press releases from major hotels such as the Palace Resorts, where we had stayed at one Moon Palace in Jamaica.   [00:02:03.400] - Kim But they are offering free testing to their guests that will help them further. You know, American guests are flying back into the states so that that is one thing that you might consider is checking for hotels that are offering it. I think they know how much they rely on that tourism dollar. And so they're doing whatever they can to make sure that American tourists keep coming down and visiting.   [00:02:27.030] - Tamara Yeah, especially because I imagine they could get pricey. I mean, if you think about some of the private testing that is available tends to be 100 dollars or more a person, so that can definitely add to the vacation cost. I was just talking to friends of ours and we were talking about their 25th anniversary in October, and they wanted to do like a four day getaway to the Caribbean. And I was like, here are some things to think about.   [00:02:49.900] - Tamara And they're like, do you think that's still going to be in place? And I have no idea. And that's the thing is like we don't know how long. So, maybe people are thinking about a spring break trip, maybe they're thinking about summer. We just don't know how long these things are going to be in place. And it's definitely, for a four day trip, you think about the time it takes you away from your little vacation to have to deal with testing.   [00:03:12.130] - Tamara And even before you go, like even though testing is more widespread, I know here a lot of the testing that I can get easily and that they encourage us to get regularly now is the rapid test and the rapid test is not going to qualify for what most countries will we will need.   [00:03:27.640] - Tamara They'll need a PCR test for coming in, so if I try to get a PCR test, it doesn't have the same guaranteed turnaround time. And so then that could really mess up your trip. And so then you have to think about, OK, maybe I have to do private testing. Like when we talked to Amber about her trip to Hawaii, she used a company called Vault Health to do private testing before she left.   [00:03:49.570] - Tamara And so now you might be paying for testing on both sides, plus taking time away from your vacation like I was just thinking about in Mexico when we went to Riviera Maya, it was about an hour from the Cancun airport. And transportation was pretty expensive because we weren't going to rent a car because we were planning on staying on the resort and then, getting back and forth to the airport. If that's where you have to do your testing, that that's going to be time consuming out of your trip.   [00:04:17.830] - Kim So, yeah, a lot of considerations.   [00:04:20.410] - Tamara And then I think also there's things to think about. Obviously, every country has their own rules. And I mean, pretty much most of them are still off limits. But even the ones that are accepting visitors from the U.S., which are a lot of the Caribbean islands and Mexico, Costa Rica. I know I was just following our friend Sarah that talked to us about kind of where the Caribbean was and they're reopening of the islands to go to. And we talked to her back in the summer. She does a lot of reporting from down there.   [00:04:50.020] - Tamara So she's just in Anguilla and it looks like she had to have a PCR test before she left a PCR test when she arrived. And then you're quarantined in your hotel room until the results of that get back, which are supposed to be within 12 hours.   [00:05:04.690] - Tamara But then even beyond that, there's a 14 day quarantine within certain resorts or properties or a restaurant.   [00:05:11.850] - Tamara So basically they've created this little like traveler's bubble so that if you are a visitor and your negative, but you're still have a red wristband that you're in a 14 day quarantine and you can go to certain hotels, certain restaurants, but only on certain days. And then they're accessible to locals on other days to keep the locals and the visitors, I guess, a little separated. And I mean, it seems to be working. They've had no deaths and very few cases.   [00:05:38.650] - Tamara But, wow, that's a huge I don't know I don't want to say restriction on your vacation because, you know, frankly, just being able to travel at all right now is a huge privilege and so but it's really it's not everyone's like, oh, I want to go on vacation. I wanted to be feel normal. Well, you know, maybe not.   [00:05:57.250] - Kim Yeah, I think that's the thing is, it's I mean, we're still not looking at what normal is going to be for a while. And I think that's that's the big thing. I know. You know, we I do feel lucky that we have such great summers here in the Pacific Northwest and we could say, hey, we can, you know, go explore our own area again. But I think everybody is getting kind of sick of that. I know I'm you know, we love California and I'm typically down there a couple or few times a year. And we I just miss, you know, pool lounging and, you know, sunsets on the beach and all of that, you know, palm tree lifestyle. And so I don't know. And, you know, Disneyland is still not open. And I don't think it has any chance of opening for spring break, in my opinion.   [00:06:44.260] - Kim So what that must be doing to that economy and all those workers, I mean, I can't even imagine.   [00:06:49.030] - Kim So it's kind of a crazy, crazy world still. I mean, I can't believe we're coming on one full year of it.   [00:06:55.630] - Tamara And yeah, I know it's it's beyond depressing, but I'm thinking mostly about summer and I just need a change of scenery, like, desperately. And so we're going to go somewhere. You know, our plan was to go to Greece, which we wanted to do last year, this year. And that may just never happen. So my strategy right now is I'm creating backup plans.   [00:07:22.300] - Tamara So I'm just booking things that are cancelable and will go where we can go. I mean, I'm not going to book like airfare or whatever, but like I did for Greece, but it is changeable without a fee and it was a good deal. So I don't know I don't know what it will happen with that eventually.   [00:07:40.870] - Tamara And the hard thing is, like everything is contingent on everything else. And that's what drives me crazy in my life because I am a planner and have a really, really hard time like not knowing what the future holds, not being able to plan for not having anything in my control. So even just talking to Hannah about like her summer plans, like last year, she was going to do this like counselor in training year at the camp that she's gone to and then do this Israel trip.   [00:08:07.090] - Tamara And obviously that was canceled and all she did was stay home and take summer optional classes and face time with friends and go for runs with me. And then we did a couple little trips, but it was just not good. And so she was thinking that this year would be something entirely different. But then the camp said, well, we're just going to kind of push it out a year.   [00:08:30.820] - Tamara So you have another chance. You know, she'd kind of like given up on that hope that she was going to do that. So now the camp is like, well, you know what, we're just like adding an extra year to camp. So now you can do it as a rising senior as well. And everything she's ever heard has been that that's like the best year of camp. And so she really wants to do it.   [00:08:48.610] - Tamara But then we were kind of thinking this year she might focus on something a little bit more like a job or like an academic program or internship, something like that. And so it's like all these things like, is that camp, is it going to move forward? Because if it doesn't doesn't should you do this? And here are these other, like, astronomy related things that she wanted to do. But like one by one, those are getting canceled, too.   [00:09:08.830] - Tamara So they're off the table. And then we are like, if you do that, then you'd be around here. But if you're not doing that, then you wouldn't be around here and maybe you want to do a family trip versus a you know, Glenn and I go on a trip.   [00:09:20.680] - Tamara And then there's also like, well, coming back are there's still going to be quarantines and restrictions in place because like right now, especially with our school, there's very strong rules about, you know, what's allowed.   [00:09:30.460] - Tamara And so it's like, well, if we did something when you came back from camp, but you need to have time to quarantine or whatever before you would have to start up soccer practice in like mid-August. And we're also trying to look at colleges like all over the country.   [00:09:46.510] - Tamara And it's like, oh, gosh, it's just there's so many feel overwhelming. And it just feels overwhelming to get locked in, you know. Yeah. The one thing that I can then like, plan things around.   [00:09:57.220] - Kim I get it. Yeah.   [00:09:58.840] - Tamara And unfortunately it'll be like last year where it will literally be June, you know, like days before something where you finally know what the situation is.   [00:10:07.780] - Kim Yeah. Who knows. We can hold out hope and just see what's going to happen the next couple of months. But I think it's important for us all to just try and like. You said earlier it's it's still a very privileged worry and a lot of ways with what's going on, so long as we keep that in mind that it is a privilege to travel and we all miss it and we will get to it when we can, and we just all support each other and do the best we can to follow rules.   [00:10:33.250] - Kim I think the rules are there to keep everyone safe on both like visitors and locals. So I think just be following rules and make sure that you're educated about rules before you make plans. I think that's the thing to focus on right now, certainly.   [00:10:46.450] - Tamara And I think also, if you are considering doing one of those like Caribbean, Mexico, whatever trips, it seems like Canada is on the verge of telling people like if you go out of the country, you may not be able to come back in. So it's like, who knows? That could happen here as well.   [00:11:01.570] - Tamara Like right now there's bans on travel for people that are not U.S. citizens. But there's a lot of considerations to travel right now.   [00:11:13.360] - Kim Well, I mean, the Tokyo Olympics have completely been scrapped, which is just so sad and hard on that country. And I'm sure. So it's it's affected so much of, you know, I mean, it's not like they can't delay it another year like they did. So it's very sad for all those situation.   [00:11:33.010] - Tamara Yeah.   [00:11:34.000] - Kim Well, we are going to try and not focus on the sad and we are going to talk about a New York state escape. So for many people, depending on, like you've said, travel restrictions and quarantine requirements, it is a possible escape because it sounds like it's a lot of small towns, kind of keep to yourself, go outdoors, hike destination. So we are going to be talking about the Catskills.   [00:11:58.930] - Tamara Yes. Let's let's go to the Land of Dirty Dancing, right?   [00:12:02.080] - Kim Yeah, exactly.   [00:12:12.650] - Tamara Today, we're here with Fadra Nally. Fadra is a blogger and podcast author who focuses on the lighter side of cars, entertainment and travel, her favorite destinations are as close as West Virginia and as far away as Saudi Arabia. So welcome, Fadra.   [00:12:26.660] - Fadra Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk to you today about a location that's pretty close to where I am, but I've actually only been a few times.   [00:12:35.450] - Tamara We're going to talk about the Catskill Mountains, but some of our listeners may have only heard of the Catskills for movies like Dirty Dancing or I think The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, they spend some time in the Catskills. But can you explain to our listeners, like, where are the Catskill Mountains and what are some of the towns in their area if you're going to look it up on a map?   [00:12:53.000] - Fadra Well, I'll tell you, before I went last time, last November, for the first time, I only knew that I knew it from Dirty Dancing. And that was pretty much it. And, you know, it's it was kind of well known back in the 50s. It was a big sort of like a summer location for wealthy, usually Jewish families from New York City. They would head out to the Catskills and it's it's considered upstate New York.   [00:13:16.520] - Fadra It is west of the Hudson River. And it actually encompasses it's about 700,000 acres and takes up four different counties. So it's a pretty large region. It's kind of in southeast New York state. So it's a very big area. It's a mountainous area. It's actually part of the Appalachian Mountains. So there's there's a lot to see and do there. And it's kind of funny that you mentioned the entertainment aspect, because I do cover entertainment as well as travel.   [00:13:45.680] - Fadra And so it was kind of fun just to read a little bit more about it. And just a quick side note on Dirty Dancing. So the resort in that film is called Kellerman's, and it was inspired by a resort called Grossinger's, which is it's now gone. It's long gone, actually. So they actually shot that movie in Virginia and North Carolina.   [00:14:07.850] - Fadra So they didn't even shoot it in the Catskills. But Mrs. Maisel, they did actually shoot there. There's a place called Scott's Family Resort at Oquaga Lake, and it's a family run hotel. I haven't been to the one in the Catskills. I've been to similar type hotels where it's sort of like an all inclusive, rustic, family friendly family activity type place. And that one, they actually chose to film it there because that's remained largely unchanged since the 50s.   [00:14:35.060] - Tamara Yeah, it was funny. You talk about the 50s because I think my husband would get upset because growing up he always went to the Catskills and it was not in the 50s.   [00:14:43.280] - Tamara But I always call him old, so. Yeah, but but he was definitely one of the New York Jewish families that always went to the Catskills. They went to the Concord, was like the big resort then. And he tells me about like some of the comedians that came in. And so, like the whole Mrs. Maisel thing, like definitely ties into that. But it's really funny because one of the first times we went skiing together, his only experience skiing was at the Concord, which I guess is like just a small little hill that you would take like a tow rope up.   [00:15:10.310] - Tamara And so when we were going up the lift, I think it was in Mount Snow in Vermont, he was like, how high are we going? Like, how long is this lift? And I was like, I don't know. I'll take about like 10, 15 minutes. He's like, What? And then I was like, well, how long is it going to take to get down? I'm like, I don't know, like half an hour or so.   [00:15:27.590] - Tamara And he was just like so shocked because it was, you know, his experience was, you know, very much going to the Concord in the winter and skiing there. But skiing was more like, you know, that most five minutes down the hill.   [00:15:39.390] - Fadra So his idea of skiing sounds more like my idea of. So that's good to know. If I want to go skiing, I'm going to go to the Catskills.   [00:15:47.160] - Tamara Yeah, I think there are some some tougher hills or mountains, I should say now. But anyway, it's funny because he definitely always talked about his experience in the Catskills.   [00:15:57.530] - Kim That's funny. So speaking of winter and seasons, you had mentioned that you went in November, which would have been the fall. So it's it seems like maybe it's a seasonal destination. Do you know anything about some of the things that you can do around the different seasons and maybe the best time you think for people to visit?   [00:16:14.480] - Fadra Well, you know, the great thing about the Catskills are that it's really a four season area. So I think it just depends on what you like to do.   [00:16:23.150] - Fadra So I am not a skier, as you might have inferred from like those small little hills. I actually grew up doing some ski trips to Pennsylvania, which are also, you know, nice little hills, and I can handle that. So I'm not a big winter sports fan. They do have skiing there. So if that's something that you like to do, that is something that you can do in the Catskills. But the other three seasons are where you're really going to be able to take advantage of a lot of the outdoor activities.   [00:16:49.370] - Fadra So, for example, I love to kayak and we actually stayed at a place right on the Hudson River. So you do have access to the river and you do have access to the mountains. So depending on what you like to do, we stayed right by the river, which would be great for warmer weather activities. And then, of course, all the mountain activities are, you know, just a short drive away.   [00:17:09.590] - Fadra But I found November was just a bit too chilly for any activities on the river, and when you get into fall in an area like New York and in the mountains, you know, it's kind of hit or miss. You're going to have some warmer days and then you're going to have some really cold days. So I was actually content to just sit on the shore of the river. And for people that don't know, the Hudson River is a major waterway for cargo ships.   [00:17:32.850] - Fadra And so, it's kind of fun just sitting out there. In fact, our first night there, I looked out the window.   [00:17:38.610] - Fadra I'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And my friends were like, what's wrong? What's wrong? I said, there's a giant ship on the river.   [00:17:47.730] - Fadra So it was totally unexpected to see them go up and down. So that was kind of fun. But, you know, fall and spring are great for hiking, as is summer.   [00:17:55.270] - Fadra I mean, you could do anything in the summer, but fall, fall or spring. It was perfect for us to do some brisk hiking. And then, like I said, if if you don't mind snow and you like skiing, there are opportunities in the winter as well. So, you know, it really just depends on what you like to do. But I would definitely consider it a four season area.   [00:18:13.560] - Kim Is it really like tree heavy snow would fall be have a lot of fall colors like you hear so much about in the Northeast, or is it a little too far north for that?   [00:18:22.680] - Fadra No, I think it depends. Again, it depends on where you go. Keep in mind that the Catskill region is huge and it goes all the way from the Hudson River, pretty far west. So if you start driving up, I think you're talking about maybe elevation wise, it is it you don't get a lot of trees. No, it was actually most of the leaves were gone by the time we went. We went mid to late November.   [00:18:44.220] - Fadra So, you know, of course, the further north you go, the earlier the foliage season is. But no, the area is definitely popular for fall foliage and they definitely encourage that. In fact, it's still a big area for New York City people, even though it's a couple hours away, you'll get a lot of the leaf peepers in the fall. So, yeah, it's a beautiful area for that.   [00:19:05.050] - Tamara Yeah, I was thinking I was in the Finger Lakes in September, like late September of this year. And so they are not too different in terms of how high up they are. So feel like October would probably be prime leaf season.   [00:19:24.690] - Tamara And I definitely think that the Catskills have a lot of agritourism because when I was there for a family reunion, this was, oh, gosh, maybe 15 years ago almost. We went in the summer and there were like a lot of farms to visit. So I imagine in the fall that could be really, you know, an excellent time to like do all the pumpkin patches and stuff like that.   [00:19:49.200] - Kim I'm betting if it's near the it has a lot of trees and it's near the river, it's probably really good for birdwatching. Not that I'm into that, but I'm thinking spring time would probably be really popular.   [00:19:58.230] - Fadra I actually love bird watching, but I can't say it was something that occurred to me because along the river. So if you're going to stay along the river, you're probably going to stay in a town which is going to be a little bit more developed.   [00:20:10.740] - Kim OK, but it's more I'm picturing like Pacific Northwest Rivers, but that's more like when I lived in Kansas. It's like the Missouri River, like transport river type.   [00:20:19.020] - Fadra Exactly. Exactly.   [00:20:20.680] - Tamara Okay. Yeah. When you were talking about kayaking, I'm like, wow, the Hudson, that's that's huge. And I'm not quite sure I'd want to kayak on that.   [00:20:27.900] - Fadra You know, it's kind of funny because my husband grew up a little further south, but right along the Hudson River and he used to tell me stories of how they would jet ski all the time on the Hudson River. And you just you don't really grasp it until you're there. And you see, OK, it's a pretty big it's a pretty wide river. And then you see these massive ships going up. And I came home and I said, you were jet skiing on that river with these giant cargo ships.   [00:20:52.260] - Fadra And he said, yeah, we used to you know, they would go behind the ships and catch the wake of the ships and jump them. And, you know, I was like, we are different people. He also did black diamond skiing trails. So, you know, he's more of a thrill seeker.   [00:21:06.540] - Fadra I'm more of a I'm going to sit over here with my glass of wine and just, you know, take a look at the the world going by.   [00:21:12.090] - Fadra But, yeah, I would I would definitely do some kayaking. I'd probably be more inclined to keep it, you know, close to the shore. And there are rules on the river. So, you know, they do have buoys, so you don't go out past a certain place and there are shipping lanes. So it's not like you can just cut straight across.   [00:21:28.890] - Kim So, yeah, funny when you said that, it reminds me, I don't know if either of you are. Well I know not on TikTok, but I'm, I like TikTok sometimes and there's a thing and it's like, the best relationships always have one really boring person and one really crazy person because the it works. It's the only it's the only way that matches up.   [00:21:49.110] - Fadra Did you just call me boring?   [00:21:50.670] - Fadra Yeah, I'm, I'm with you. Compared to my look compared to my husband. I like different types. You know, I might try and exotic fish.   [00:22:01.530] - Fadra You know, you live you live large. He's done everything jump out of airplanes. Motorcycles that I'm like, let's stay in a nice luxury hotel.   [00:22:17.900] - Tamara I'm just thinking, I think that we're both the boring ones, which leaves Hannah to be the wild one.   [00:22:23.900] - Tamara But, yeah, so we talked about kayaking and, you know, maybe some hiking, things like that. Are there any other, like activities? Are there attractions that you should see in the Catskills?   [00:22:33.890] - Fadra So, you know, keep in mind that I went in November and we are, you know, in the midst of this thing called a pandemic. So, you know, I didn't get to explore everything that I wanted to see because, you know, there are reduced hours and reduced availability. And also there are some things that are open seasonally. So I would say, you know, the biggest activities are probably open from May to October. So keep that in mind.   [00:22:58.790] - Fadra I was there in November. But with that said, I think the biggest things that I would recommend are waterfalls and wineries. And even if you're not into wineries, they have a lot of distilleries that are pretty well known. They have a lot of breweries. And so we didn't actually get a chance to hit any of those. But there are some you know, there are a couple really well-known distilleries that we were looking to get to. But waterfalls, of course, are, you know, available.   [00:23:24.830] - Fadra That's that's a four season thing as well. I don't know that I would go in the winter, but it was a nice brisk hike to do the waterfalls. And, of course, you know, you have the mountains, you have the water. So you're going to get a lot of waterfalls. One of the places that we went that I absolutely loved, it's called Catskill Falls. And keep in mind that this area was founded by the Dutch.   [00:23:45.380] - Fadra So you'll get that skill like Fishkill and Peekskill and which I think I think that I think Kill actually refers to River. I think that's what I think that's what it means. So it's a Dutch word. But Catskill Falls is a it's one of the largest the highest waterfalls in New York State. It's 260 feet tall.   [00:24:05.000] - Fadra So it's actually higher than Niagara Falls. It's the tallest cascading waterfall in New York State. And it's really popular. And we went and it was it's about a one mile hike to get to the base of the waterfalls. And then you can actually go up a series of stairs to take you to the top of the waterfall. And it's a it's a beautiful overlook. It's a nice hike. And, you know, the only thing to keep in mind, again, during the pandemic, if you look online, it'll say the falls are closed.   [00:24:38.180] - Fadra And what that means is some of the trailheads are closed. So you have to be a little bit more strategic about, you know, where you park and how you access it. But Catskill Falls was really amazing. And if you're not a super outdoorsy person, if you just wanted like a nice relaxing getaway, there are all kinds of cute little towns with shopping and eating.   [00:24:59.300] - Fadra And again, you know, availability during this time is really going to vary by towns. But we found great bookstores and cute little coffee shops and restaurants and just like boutique shops, unique artsy shops. And one of the things that that I like to do when I travel is I like to stimulate the local economy and I like to try and find things that I couldn't find other, you know, in other places. So I do a lot of boutique shopping.   [00:25:26.150] - Fadra And so, yeah, they had some really unique stuff there. So I definitely recommend the shopping as well. It's great.   [00:25:32.310] - Kim It sounds like a kind of the type of place that you'd pick a nice hotel and maybe get a spa treatment and enjoy a lazy breakfast and then stroll around and maybe do a hike or two. And that's the kind of vacation I'm dreaming of right now as a kind of nice for a girlfriend getaway.   [00:25:47.630] - Tamara Yeah, exactly. A romantic getaway. I think you definitely sold both of us on the waterfalls and wine.   [00:25:52.100] - Kim Yeah, exactly. Tamara and I, those are it's like we're sold. We're in.   [00:25:56.330] - Fadra And actually that's why I went in November. So last year was a big birthday for me. And I had decided going into the year that this is going to be my year to travel. And as you know, the world had other plans. And so two of my friends actually said, let's do just a local getaway. You know, it's drivable for all of us. And so we it was three girlfriends and we stayed in a little Airbnb, beautiful Airbnb on the water with three bedrooms.   [00:26:26.870] - Fadra And it was just, you know, it was a perfect getaway for us. And, you know, the thing is right now that you can go out, but you can also, you know, get some takeout and have a girls night in and just be away from home.   [00:26:39.020] - Tamara And it was really, really nice. Yeah, well, I share that big birthday with you, and I was also planning a year of travel, so I'm going to make up for it. We are definitely eventually I kept saying we're going to do in twenty, twenty one. I'm like, uh, maybe the latter half of 2021.   [00:26:55.970] - Fadra So yeah. Still holding out hope.   [00:26:58.550] - Kim So is there any, special area, you know you've, you've just been the one time. But I know with your research and probably what you plan, what about any favorite areas to stay because you said it's a huge region, so. What would you like, what towns or areas do you think are the the winning winning spots? So, you know, I've actually been up that way, you know, quite a few times because my I have family that lives up in Fishkill, New York, which is a little further south of the Catskills, and it's on the east side of the Hudson River.   [00:27:29.620] - Fadra So my husband and I go up there almost every year and we do a lot of day trips. And so I've done things like hiking and biking and brunching at Mohonk Mountain House. I don't know if you're familiar with.   [00:27:41.260] - Tamara Oh, yeah, I've wanted to stay there.   [00:27:42.850] - Fadra Yeah, it's beautiful in New Paltz, New York.   [00:27:45.160] - Fadra So that's a place where normally you can only go there if you are a guest. But, you know, fun little secret. If you make a brunch reservation, then you could spend the whole day there. You know, they'll let you in as long as you have brunch reservations or something. And so they have some great trails that go all the way around the lake. So I've done that.   [00:28:04.960] - Fadra But this time I stayed further north in a town called. If you were to read it, it looks like it's Cock Sakey, which is a horrible name, but they pronounce it Cook Soki. .   [00:28:19.270] - Fadra I thought it was really just the perfect location. It's not too far from Albany. It's a really easy drive. I live, you know, close to Baltimore and drove up there and it was actually a really, really easy drive. I thought it was a good location and it was kind of a good place where we could go to the east side of the river if we wanted to visit. Some towns over there like Hudson is a really cute town there.   [00:28:45.370] - Fadra If we wanted to go as far south to a town called Kingston, we went there or if we wanted to stay closer, you know, there there is actually a town called Catskill. And then, of course, the town we stayed in Cocksackie and just in the little downtown area, there's not there's not a ton there.   [00:29:03.040] - Fadra They're actually doing a lot of revitalization there. They have some investors coming in. And, you know, I think they're going to kind of try and make it a wedding destination. But there were some great restaurants we ate at this place called Chez Figata, and they were open for business. There was a great bottle shop, which we call them wine stores. But I guess up there it's a bottle shop and really great wines and just some small little little shops that we were able to walk to from where we were staying.   [00:29:31.540] - Fadra So I actually really love staying there and I wouldn't mind staying there again, but I would love to explore the areas further west. So the Catskills go much further west, a little bit deeper into the mountains, and that's where you're going to find the resorts and the ski areas and so on.   [00:29:49.450] - Tamara And what about Woodstock, Woodstock's part of the Catskills, isn't it? Or is that further South?   [00:29:53.350] - Fadra It is. Well, it's further south, but it's very close to New Paltz. So, you know, Woodstock, as in the Woodstock is right up there, which was actually just a big, you know, farming area, big farm where they had it.   [00:30:06.400] - Fadra So you'll find that there's pretty, how shall I say, crunchy towns up that way.   [00:30:13.270] - Tamara Yeah, those are fun. Like you said, though, bookstore's like unique boutiques like I love that kind of things.   [00:30:20.710] - Tamara I again I keep going back to like maybe more girlfriend getaway a romantic getaway. But at the same time like I know that we've done family things there and there are definitely I feel like there's like amusement park.   [00:30:32.410] - Tamara I'm trying to think of like all the things my nieces and nephews did when we were on that family reunion quite a few years ago.   [00:30:39.760] - Fadra Well, let me just say that right now, especially to the moms out there, we're pretty much home with everybody almost all the time. And it's OK to take a little time for yourself and do do a girlfriend getaway. I know it's easy to think like, well, if we're spending the time or the money, we should do a family trip. But it's really worthwhile to just kind of refresh and recharge and take that back home to your family.   [00:31:09.310] - Tamara Yeah, I think especially this should be a year where there should be less guilt about that because we're like, oh, I never see them. We're so busy. I'm like, no, you've seen them.   [00:31:18.910] - Fadra So we need to spend more time as a family. No, we don't.   [00:31:24.880] - Kim I have to say, I was, you know, really thankful that we never, you know, embrace the RV or tiny home lifestyle, you know? But then I was thinking of our friend Brianna, who runs Crazy family adventure, and they've been living in their RV with her, you know, kids for six years now or something. And I'm like, I guess this pandemic's really not that different for them.   [00:31:48.280] - Fadra So my friend Andrea Updyke, I don't know if you know Andrea, they recently bought an RV. By the way, RVs are hard to come by right now because because because of the pandemic, everyone's like, let's get on the road. So they bought an RV and they actually just did a trip out to the Grand Canyon from North Carolina. And it was a three week trip and I said, how was it, and she said, actually, you know, it's great, we had a wonderful trip, we all got along really well.   [00:32:15.450] - Fadra But it's funny because when she's home and I think when you're away with your family, it's a little bit different. So she says when we're home, a lot of times they'll plug the RV in on their driveway. And she uses that as her little like oasis away from her family.   [00:32:30.630] - Kim It's like her, she shed. I think it's funny.   [00:32:37.050] - Tamara So, you know, we were talking about that its kind of good for the girlfriend getaway, a romantic getaway. I remember when Glenn and I were dating, when we lived in New York and we went up to the Catskills, we stayed to someplace I wish I could remember.   [00:32:48.570] - Tamara It was like a B&B, but we stayed in like a loft in the barn and it was on a pond that was supposed to be like, I don't know where they filmed on Golden Pond or something like that. And I remember like rowing in a rowboat was so romantic.   [00:33:03.150] - Tamara But there are you know, there are still some family resorts up there. Do you have any that, you know, kind of heard of or know about? I think the one that I've that comes to mind for me is Kartrite, which has like the water park inside, kind of like a great wolf kind of thing.   [00:33:19.170] - Tamara But are there some more of those kind of the traditional like what used to be Catskill family resorts?   [00:33:24.870] - Fadra There are there are about 25 different mountain resort.   [00:33:29.760] - Fadra So if you're looking for a mountain resort in particular, they all have a little bit of a different focus. So some are that family oriented, all inclusive, where it's, you know, three meals a day or whatever it is. And they have all the family activities and everything is right there. Others are casino resorts and some are ski resorts. So I think it really just depends on what you're looking for.   [00:33:53.620] - Kim It's good to know that there's probably a lot of options out there.   [00:33:56.230] - Kim I seem to recall I recently wrote a post and I was referencing like some All-Inclusive in the United States, and I seem to recall one that's there. And I can't think of which one now, but I know it was in that upstate New York area and it's probably in that region, I'm guessing. And it's one of the all inclusive that kind of attracts families.   [00:34:13.360] - Fadra Yeah. And when you when you mention all inclusive, I mean, here's the thing. Depending on the resort, I've stayed at a couple in the U.S., not up in the Catskills. And, you know, the one thing I want people to keep in mind is you're probably not going to get the all all inclusive experience at, say, like in the Caribbean. So it's it's a little bit different. Some that are more old fashioned and more family oriented.   [00:34:37.200] - Fadra To me, they feel more like summer camp for families. Right. And then others, I've been to some I've been to some in the Poconos, and that's more like a cruise ship on land. So it's still not quite that Caribbean feel. But I think it's important to kind of reset your expectations for what an all inclusive is if you're doing something within the U.S..   [00:34:58.290] - Tamara That's true. Very true. It's definitely not a yeah. Not the same. You know, bring me my drink by the poolside.   [00:35:04.820] - Fadra Exactly, exactly.   [00:35:06.870] - Kim It's more of just like a meal package included. Yes, exactly.   [00:35:10.380] - Fadra So it's also a good area for camping. And by camping, I mean tent camping. We talked about RV camping. I got to be honest, for years I wanted that to be my thing. It's not my thing. In fact, I mentioned my friend when she got an RV and it was just very exciting. And I mentioned it to my husband. I said, what would you think about this? And he looks at me and he goes, No.   [00:35:32.850] - Fadra And I said, Really? He's like, Do you really think that's us? We're more like luxury hotel kind of people, which makes me sound sort of snobby. It doesn't have to be a luxury hotel, but I like places like you said, like something that's a little bit unique, like staying in a loft in a barn or something that's just that feels really clean and modern and comfortable. So we actually rented the first time ever that I stayed in an Airbnb and I absolutely loved it.   [00:36:00.570] - Fadra And I'm really worried now because I don't know if all experiences are that good. So we stayed at a place called Heron's View, which is right on the Hudson River in Cocksackie. And like I said, it was an older home. They completely renovated it. So it still had character, but it was modern and clean and I just loved it. So I definitely recommend that.   [00:36:23.610] - Fadra But again, I hate to keep referring to the P word, but in the time of the pandemic, these kind of things actually book up because a lot of people who maybe would have, you know, done their European vacation or gone on a cruise, they're not they're looking for these smaller, family oriented, more accessible type vacations. So these things actually fill up fairly quickly. In fact, the place where we stayed, Heron's view, I think for the entire month of August, it was rented by three working women out of New York City that just wanted to get out of the city.   [00:36:59.460] - Fadra And so it wasn't really a vacation. It was just a place for them to stay while they were working. So you'll find a lot more of those kinds of things. So I definitely recommend planning in advance for whatever it is. That you want to do?   [00:37:10.920] - Tamara Yeah, and we had that when we went to the Adirondacks over the summer and I definitely think it's going to continue. I think people are already looking at some of that this year, even if it's their backup plan.   [00:37:22.580] - Tamara You know, like if other things can't happen, at least they have something. So the better properties, like you said, like the ones that have those unique characteristics or the views or the you know, they're lakeside like that type of thing, if you're looking for that. I agree. They definitely book it up early. Those I think it's going to continue to be a very popular way to travel throughout 2021.   [00:37:44.600] - Fadra I think so, too. And, you know, I want to mention that because a lot of people feel like they can't travel.   [00:37:51.470] - Fadra And, you know, of course you have to pay attention to state requirements and state restrictions and your personal level of comfort as well. But, you know, because we all work in the travel industry, you know, I want to make sure that people know that you can travel, you can travel safely. You know, it just depends on where you're going and how you're choosing to travel. I think we went out to eat maybe once, maybe twice.   [00:38:15.440] - Fadra But we we did takeout and we brought it back. You know, we all made sure that we were safe before we traveled together. We brought takeout back. We brought board games with us. You know, we went to the bottle shop and got bottles of wine. And it was really about spending time with each other in a different destination. So you can do it. I don't think that you have to put off travel. You just have to figure out more creative ways to do it.   [00:38:39.530] - Kim Yeah, that's what we're starting to see. I mean, these these towns and tourist districts, I mean, as travel writers, we're seeing what they how they've been impacted. And I don't know if many of them can go through another summer or even spring into summer facing this.   [00:38:56.030] - Kim So I think it is smart for us to figure out where our level is and make sure, of course, that you're following any rules and restrictions, but then do what works best for your family and help try and support the local economy. I love that you talk about buying from the local shops. And, you know, we've been trying to do that locally, just eating at our local restaurants and getting order out instead of, you know, visiting as many chains and little things like that.   [00:39:21.290] - Kim So I think there are ways that if you're comfortable and you're following the rules and restrictions Tamara do you know, does New York State have any current travel restrictions?   [00:39:31.400] - Tamara They do. They have had for quite a while. So definitely check their website. They had some quarantine restrictions. There's a form that you need to fill out. Yeah. So definitely before you go, make sure you understand what the restrictions are. The good side is that I don't know what your experience was, Fadra, but I know when we were in the Adirondacks, it's like because New York has taken things very seriously, we saw a lot of compliance, you know, like we didn't have many issues.   [00:39:59.420] - Tamara It was it felt like a pretty safe place to go, you know, so that I really appreciate it.   [00:40:06.610] - Fadra I mean, I felt comfortable. But it's one of those things where if you're walking around town, you're having a mask on. Whether you're inside or outside, you just you wear the mask. And when even when we went hiking, there were people that wore masks. We chose not to wear them outside. But you make sure if if that's how someone feels comfortable, you give them a wide berth when you pass them on the trail, right?   [00:40:29.090] Yeah, definitely. We we would usually have something that we would like pull up if you're passing someone. But I definitely appreciated the people that didn't have it and they made sure they stepped far off the trail and that was good.   [00:40:43.670] - Kim So do you have any final tips that you'd like to share for, you know, if someone's thinking of planning a trip to the Catskills?   [00:40:50.840] - Fadra Well, just to kind of recap some of the things we talked about, I'd say planning it in advance, you know, make sure there's availability for where you might want to stay, especially right now. Make sure you know what's open, whether it's something that's closed for seasonal reasons or it's closed because of, you know, pandemic reasons, because you don't want to get your heart set on something. You'd be like, oh, well, we can't do that now and then.   [00:41:13.610] - Fadra You know, you don't know. You don't know what to do. I also want to mention that just because it's outside doesn't mean it's easily accessible. This is true, honestly, throughout the country, there are some trailheads that are closed primarily to reduce the number of people, you know, a lot of the national parks, which drives me a little crazy that, you know, some of the parking lots are closed and the shops are closed and some of the attractions are closed.   [00:41:39.230] - Fadra But more importantly, the bathrooms are closed. That's the only thing that bothers me.   [00:41:44.690] - Fadra But they do that because they want to kind of discourage, you know, large crowds of people gathering together. The other thing, and I sort of hinted at this is be prepared for any kind of weather. Even in the summer, it can get very chilly in the mountains. So we were staying right on the water and it it was actually nice during the day and then it would drop down at night. But, you know, a lot of places are used to having you know, we had a fire pit, we had an outdoor heater.   [00:42:10.760] - Fadra So but we definitely brought layers as well.   [00:42:14.340] - Tamara Yeah, very good point. I mean, even in the summer when you're in the mountains, it gets colder. Well, speaking of layers of question that we ask, all of our guest is, what do you wear when you travel? Do you have any favorite brands or gear?   [00:42:29.400] - Fadra Well, for me, it changes by season. So, for example, in the summer, I love fit flops and I wear them pretty much everywhere I go.   [00:42:39.000] - Fadra If I'm hiking, I'm more of a I wear new balance hiking shoes. If if I'm hiking, I don't do hiking boots, I do hiking shoes. But in the summer I do flip flops. This winter I've been wearing a lot of toms and I don't mean the little canvas toms. Toms makes some nice, they're kind of like sneaker ankle boots and I love them and I also have some wool clogs from earthier. Can you tell that footwear is important to me.   [00:43:05.400] - Fadra I like to be comfortable. And I also did a little shopping in Kingston, New York, which is a little bit south of Catskill, and I bought a shirt from a boutique. Between us, it's the most expensive shirt I've ever bought, but I love it. It's from a brand called Faherty. It's hard to say f h e r t y. And I've heard that it's my new favorite shirt. It's just like it looks like it's a gray wool shirt, but it's just a button up shirt with just the right fit, the right stretch.   [00:43:34.110] - Fadra And so like that's my go to shirt.   [00:43:36.150] - Tamara Now that's what I love about boutique shopping, though. It's I mean, I rarely do it here because I can't afford it on a regular basis. But it's just so nice to have something that's unique and like you said, that has like that special fit.   [00:43:50.130] - Tamara And you're going to remember going to remember where you got it. Going to remember the time that you had it with your girlfriends and all of that.   [00:43:54.870] - Fadra So every time I put it on, I text my friends and say I'm wearing my special shirt today and I know exactly what I'm talking about. That's awesome.   [00:44:02.820] - Kim Well, thank you so much for all these awesome tips. And why don't you let our listeners know where they can find you online? Sure.   [00:44:09.390] - Fadra Well, I have a blog called All Things Fadra, and you can find it at all things Phaedra dot com. It's spelled FADRA and I also produce a lot of videos. So I do have I do have quite a few travel videos on my YouTube channel and that's YouTube.com/allthingsfadra and I'm a sometime podcast store where I talk about TV in movies and you can find all the info on that at StingerUniverse.com.   [00:44:36.510] - Tamara And I've gotten a lot of tips from you guys on things to watch, so I enjoy listening.   [00:44:42.480] - Fadra Pandemic is a perfect time to really dig into entertainment.   [00:44:46.200] - Kim Can you believe how long ago Tiger King was like four years ago? That was still. That was it.   [00:45:12.690] - Kim Yes, but Fadra, you have to make time for Bridgton, OK?   [00:45:16.500] - Fadra Not with my son around though.   [00:45:18.180] - Kim No, definitely not. Well, you know, if you're into entertainment, you can't pass that by.   [00:45:26.790] - Tamara I kind of thought I was a teen drama kind of thing. And then I started watching. I'm like, oh, OK.   [00:45:33.150] - Fadra Isn't it sort of like a period teen drama, though?   [00:45:35.580] - Tamara Well, yeah, yeah it's yeah. It's like what the eighteen hundreds supposed to be.   [00:45:40.350] - Kim Well I mean it's just back to like when I mean I think the problem is the fact that girls used to be married off when they turned 17 and 18 like you come into your first season and you better get married then are you going to be on the shelf, you know, type mentality, then you'll be an old old maid or.   [00:45:56.100] - Fadra Yeah, well, we just got a new elliptical so I need something to motivate me and get my heart rate up so that if I don't work nights.   [00:46:06.360] - Tamara So have you ever watched Reign?   [00:46:09.540] - Kim No, I haven't is it ok? I need to watch that one.   [00:46:12.030] - Tamara If you liked Bridgton then you will definitely like that.   [00:46:15.750] - Kim I've been thinking I need to watch that, but I want to watch Queen's Gambit first and I just started. I haven't watched it yet and I was debating because I was trying to start watching the office, which Paul really liked the office years ago, like when it was out and I never really got into it with him, but a couple of times I would see some episodes. And so I thought I should go back and start it like season one and watch it. Yeah, but then I was just like I loaded it and I watched the pilot last night. I was like, there's like nine seasons and they're twenty some episodes per season. I mean, it's a lot.   [00:46:48.210] - Tamara We've watched all of those with Hannah like a few years ago we went through it. But I will say like I love the office. But the things that Michael did that were cringeworthy then are like a hundred times more cringeworth now. And you're like, how did they ever put that on the air? You know?   [00:47:06.060] - Kim I watched the first one. I'm like, oh my goodness, this is sort of hard to watch.   [00:47:09.640] - Fadra Pretty sure I worked for Michael Scott, so. I think we've seen every single episode about 17 times, so we're well versed in the office.   [00:47:22.480] - Tamara What I want is just a compilation of all of the practical jokes that Jim plays on Dwight like that would just make me laugh, like I would roll over, you know, just like watching an hour straight of all of those.   [00:47:35.920] - Fadra You know what? Let me just give one plug for a little show you guys should watch. Speaking of the office, it's a show on Netflix called We Are the Champions. If you haven't watched it, it's I think like a six or seven is running through my head. Yeah, it's like a six or seven episode docu series by Rainn Wilson, who played Dwight on the office. And, you know, I'm mentioning it because it goes to all different parts of the world and and the country so we can kind of tie it back to travel a little bit.   [00:48:03.820] - Fadra And it's really about unique competitions. It's like there's one and I think it's England, a cheese rolling competition where they roll a wheel of cheese down a very steep hill in this small town. And it's a big competition for who can get to the bottom and catch the cheese first. There's another one about the frog jumping competition in Calberas County, California. So it's just a really fun show. And, you know, even the kids would like it.   [00:48:31.870] Great recommendation. Well, thanks so much, Fadra, for spending time with us. And yeah, we look forward to hopefully chatting with you again soon and maybe eventually we'll see each other again on a vacation or somewhere..   [00:48:49.360] - Kim Well, as always, thanks for listening. And we have something exciting if you go to on Instagram, if you go to Stuffed Suitcase or We3Travel, go to one of our Instagram pages and check out our post.   [00:49:01.390] - Kim We are actually doing a giveaway with a lot of amazing books that will help you at least be inspired. If you are thinking of planning a vacation, it'll help you get some things figured out and started on your vacation planning. So go to our Instagram and check that out.   [00:49:17.620] - Tamara Yep. And stay tuned, because next week we're going to be talking about tips for saving for travel. And I think this is a big one because as we've talked about before, like budget is certainly an issue. And I think we're going to be trying to share as many tips as we can in the next few episodes and from different people about ways to save on travel and for travel. We'll chat with you again in two weeks.  

So many of us are dreaming about a tropical escape right now, but is it possible? This week we talk with Amber Mamian, from Global Munchkins, about her recent family trip to Hawaii. Find out what to expect in terms of testing, travel restrictions, and hotel and activity protocols when you are visiting Hawaii during COVID. About Amber Mamian Amber Mamian is a family travel expert, founder of Global Munchkins, and ambassador for Oprah Magazine who resides in Southern CA with her husband and 5 children. You can follow her family's adventures and more on Instagram at @global_munchkins and on her site GlobalMunchkins.com. Get Amber's guide to planning a Hawaii vacation here. What to Expect when Visiting Hawaii During COVID The state of Hawaii currently has a 14-day mandatory quarantine for visitors. However, you can bypass this quarantine if you have a negative test within 72 hours of your arrival. But note that Hawaii only accepts tests from certain companies so you need to do your research regarding testing in your area to determine how you can get a test before your trip, and whether or not you will get the results back in time. You can find the information you need about required testing on HawaiiCOVID19.com/travel. Amber had a good experience with an at-home testing kit and processing from Vault Health. You take your saliva-based test at home in front of a doctor or nurse on Zoom and then overnight them the kit and you have the results in 24 hours. You also need to fill out a mandatory Hawaii travel and health form before you arrive. After submitting your forms, you receive a user account with the state of Hawaii. There you can upload the PDF of your testing results. Once you have submitted your testing results, you are given a QR code to show on your phone when you arrive, checking in at the hotel, and whenever asked throughout your trip. If you do not have a negative test upon arrival, you have to do the full 14-day quarantine, even if your results come in during that time. Some airlines, such as United, will make you show your negative test results to board the plane. Delta is currently still keeping the middle seat open but we aren't sure how long they will keep that in place. When you arrive at the airport they will check every person's QR code and contact tracing form. For hotel check in, every adult may need to be present to show ID and your QR code. Restaurants adhere very strictly to the rule of only five people at a table, so even if you have a large family, you cannot sit more than 5 people together. Once you are there, Hawaii doesn't have a lot of visitors right now so it is easy to social distance when on the beach or taking hikes. The Disney Aulani has done an excellent job of explaining safety protocols, providing signage and sanitizing stations throughout the resort, and guests were very good about complying with those protocols. The five person rule was also enforced at the pool, where no more than five people from the same family/household could sit together. At some resorts in Waikiki, pool usage is restricted to certain hours with reservations required. You will likely need to show your QR code when visiting attractions or doing activities outside of your hotel. It is helpful to use sites like Yelp to read up on which attractions and restaurants are still open and their hours and protocols. Don't be surprised to find many restaurants closed or require reservations. It is helpful to stay in a villa or a place with a kitchen so you can prepare some of your meals. Be sure to stay on top of updates in the time leading up to your trip Make sure you research your state's travel restrictions and quarantine requirements on return. Also make sure you read your cancellation policies for everything you book because things can change quickly. Amber loves the swimsuits and travel clothes from Albion Fit. She also loves blazers from Chicos. Read the Episode Transcript [00:00:00.150] - Kim Dreaming of a tropical escape? Find out what it's like to travel to Hawaii right now. [00:00:16.930] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:31.750] - Kim Tamara, it is the New Year. So happy New Year. [00:00:34.540] - Tamara Happy New Year. Yay! We all made it to 2021. [00:00:37.690] - Kim Yeah exactly. Is it going to be better? Like let's hope, let's hope that 2020 is in the Blinder's, right? [00:00:44.020] - Tamara Yeah. Yeah. I mean it has to be at some point. Right. Like it may not be immediately better but we're going to get there. Yeah, definitely. [00:00:50.800] - Kim Well the vaccination news is certainly hopeful and good. So hopefully that's a good signal for all of us that we are all going to get back to traveling soon. And I know that today we're going to be talking about a pretty awesome destination that I think a lot of people are probably dreaming about, especially since when we're recording this, it's winter for most people. So I know that I'm dreaming of warm weather at this time of year. [00:01:13.600] - Tamara There's a foot of snow out my window, so I'm definitely dreaming of warm weather right now. [00:01:18.830] - Kim So we're going to talk to Amber all about Hawaii. She and her family took a little trip there, and it definitely looks different right now. There's a lot of regulations. And, of course, everyone's going to take their own consideration on whether they're comfortable traveling and what that looks like for them and their family. But we just wanted to give you guys an insight into what Hawaii travel looks like right now with the regulations about covid. But in the meantime, if you are dreaming of more Hawaii destinations, I think Tamara has some of our old episodes that she's going to give a little mention of. [00:01:51.130] - Tamara Yeah, definitely, because this episode is very much focused on what it's like to travel right now. And if you are just new to traveling to Hawaii and you want to have some more of a background on maybe some of the different islands and what it's like at the different hotels, if you go back to Episode 75, we talked to both Kim and Kristi Marcelle about the Disney Aulani, and we went into some very detailed descriptions about what that resort is like. And that's what Amber is going to talk about also. And if you go all the way back to Episode 55, we talked to Mary from The World is a book about Hawaii. And we were talking about, I think primarily Maui and the Big Island and Oahu. So I guess we still need to do an episode on Kauai at some point, right? [00:02:37.600] - Kim Yeah, we should have been there. It was a short trip, but I have been there. [00:02:42.010] - Tamara That's definitely where I want to go and when I would return to Hawaii. But anyway, yeah, let's chat with Amber and see what it it was like to be there now. [00:02:58.850] - Tamara This week, we're here with Amber Mamian. She is a family travel expert, founder of Global Munchkins and an ambassador for Oprah magazine. She lives in Southern California with her husband and her five children. And you can follow her family's adventures and more on Instagram at Global_Munchkins or on our site at Global Munchkins.Com. So welcome back to the podcast. Amber. [00:03:19.520] - Amber Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be back. [00:03:22.240] - Tamara I know it's been a really long time. Last time we talked to you, it was about cruising, I think maybe Disney cruises, but it certainly has been a long time since any of us were cruising, so. And in some ways, it's been a long time since any of us have traveled. But you have traveled recently to one of your favorite destinations. Now, I know you guys being on the West Coast go to Hawaii pretty often. But this year it looked a little bit different. So I was hoping that we could talk to you to learn a little bit more about what is it like to go to Hawaii now? Like what does it take to get there? What are the requirements? And really what is it like on the ground, you know, for someone that is considering a trip? So can you walk our listeners through, like, what are some of the testing requirements that are necessary to visit Hawaii right now? [00:04:06.200] - Amber Absolutely. So the good news is once you are there, it's fantastic. Their numbers are really low. It felt very safe the whole time to get there. It's a little tricky. You just have to kind of do your homework and your research. Currently, the state of Hawaii has a 14 day mandatory quarantine. However, you can bypass that if you do, if you take a negative covid test and 72 hours before your departure, it's important to look because the state of Hawaii only accepts tests done from certain companies. [00:04:36.180] - Amber So you do have to go on to their website. It's Hawaii covid-19 dot com forward slash travel and everything's listed right there. But basically, you get your test done 72 hours before departure. And we went through a company called Vault Health, which I highly recommend. [00:04:50.660] - Amber It was an at home saliva test, which was really easy on all of us, including my youngest, who's seven. You do the saliva test in front of it like a doctor or nurse on a zoom, and then they overnight the test kit back to the company and they have your results back in 24 hours. In our case, which was amazing because we're able to upload those results before we ever departed. And then beyond the testing, you're also required to fill out a mandatory state of Hawaii travel and health form. [00:05:17.990] - Amber And it's for every member of the family, which was a lot because there's seven of us adults are required to fill out their own forms. But I was able to fill them all out for the kids. And once you have those done, you have like a user account from the state of Hawaii. And when you get your results back from your testing, you actually upload that PDF right to that website or with your user, you know, your account, I guess I should say. [00:05:38.330] - Amber And once that's uploaded, they email you a QR code and that is like your ticket of gold. You know, when you land, you're going to need your QR code. I mean, you're going to possibly need it for the resort. You stay at activities you do. So you definitely need, like your your QR code golden ticket. That's what I'd call it. [00:05:57.120] - Kim Great. And can I just mention, is it true, though, that Kaui is one of the islands, they actually have have been able to opt out, so they still require a mandatory 14 day quarantine? Is that correct? [00:06:08.400] - Amber Yes. And thank you for saying that. And you also you cannot island hop either. So, like, you know, we were planning on going to Oahu and Maui instead. We only travelled to Oahu because we would have had to either do another 14 day quarantine when we got to Maui or we would have had to retest again while we were in Oahu. [00:06:26.430] - Tamara That's really good to know. And I think it's really interesting that you used that private company, because I know with cases on the rise, like testing, not everywhere is it's not possible everywhere to get testing if you're asymptomatic or just for travel anyway. But even if you can, there's not really guarantees of how quickly you're going to get it back. And I can't even imagine making that investment and then not getting a test back in time. [00:06:52.170] - Amber And there's a new law, and I probably should have looked that before we talked, but my cousin traveled on her honeymoon. It did not. Her husband got his test results from CVS and before the flight, and she didn't they only had to quarantine in the hotel for a day or two. But since we've been I was told by the hotel that now the state of Hawaii, if you do not have a negative test upon arrival, you have to do a full mandatory 14 days instead of waiting for your test results, come in a day or two. [00:07:22.020] - Kim  I heard that as well. And I also heard that I think somebody said CVS might be actually opting out or they're not allowed anymore, but I'm not sure on that. But check that out. So definitely make sure you know who to use. And then I've heard lots of horror stories where they say it'll be back in a certain amount of time, but the people are still like they're ready to fly out and the results aren't back yet. [00:07:44.430] - Amber So, yeah, I mean, we went with a really big group and we all used Vault health. I think there was 14 of us total because it was my brother and his family and my parents and all of our tests came back within twenty four hours from Vault Health. So, I mean, we were really impressed with their service grade. [00:07:59.850] - Kim So beyond just now that everyone knows what the requirements are, what was your experience going navigating like the airport and then your in-flight experience, of course, your West Coast, Southern California. So your flight time is probably only what, like three and a half hours? But what's the experience like? [00:08:17.130] - Amber Yeah, it's like five or six hours. Yeah, it's still quite a long flight. So in flight I was really nervous like a couple of days before. We haven't flown since, but it was our first flight and I did like that everybody on the plane most likely had a negative covid test. My mom flew united and they had to show their covid test just to get on the plane. [00:08:40.620] - Amber And so that made me comfortable. And then once we were on the plane, I was really impressed. We did switch airlines. We originally with one airline that stopped doing the middle seat being open. So we switched to Delta and paid a little bit more just to have that comfort of knowing the middle seats would be open and we'd have a little bit more space on the plane. So I do appreciate the Delta did that. The planes were spotless and I did talk to Delta and they sanitized the entire flight before every single departure. And then they wipe down all the seats and sanitize in that way. [00:09:11.430] And then when you board the flight, they give you another Purell wipe to wipe down your seat yourself. So between all of that I felt pretty good on the flight. I know that they change their air filtration systems often, they said even more often than they are required to. I talked to them about their testing program. I was really impressed with that. For all of their employees, they're able to do even the rapid test in the lounge at the airport at LAX, which I liked. [00:09:37.710] - Amber And, you know, it's funny to be on a flight, honestly, and have you know, I was worried about the kids having to wear masks the whole time and it ended up not being a big deal at all. [00:09:46.690] - Tamara That's good. I mean, hopefully by now people are kind of used to it, although that's a long period of time, especially if you're trying to, you know, take a drink or have a snack, you know, quickly or something like that. [00:10:00.820] - Amber I was so nervous, we had the regular mask and then I had bought the clear, like shield. So when we were eating, I had the kid, I just pulled those out and so when they would have the mask off, I would let them have the face shield. That way they could still be somewhat protected. But on the flight home, I guess we felt so comfortable we didn't use them, to be honest. [00:10:18.420] - Kim That's good to know. And did you, I'm assuming did you pack your own snacks because they aren't doing or are airlines still doing like drinks and snacks service? [00:10:27.570] - Amber So I can only speak for Delta because that's all I've flown since covid. But what they gave you is a Ziploc bag. It had a Cheezits in it. The cookies, I can't think of what they're called the you know, the cookies they always have on planes, the bottle of water and a single use Purell. That was it for the entire flight. So we definitely knew that going into it. They email you and Delta stays in contact and is very upfront about the fact that there's not going to be those services. [00:10:52.410] - Kim So we were able to pack enough snacks to be fine. [00:10:55.650] - Tamara I think I'd have to pack a whole backpack full of water bottles. [00:10:59.550] - Amber Yes, we did. [00:11:00.720] - Amber We definitely did pack a lot of water because they give you, like, those little bottles to like it is about a teeny bottle. And they did pass them out. [00:11:08.700] - Amber I mean, they pass out water several times. But I do normally drink just so much water on a plane that I had to pack, you know, several water bottles, which you have to buy after you enter the terminal. [00:11:21.270] - Tamara So it sounds like once you have your QR code and it's your golden ticket that you're able to get into pretty much everywhere. But are they doing any additional screenings like temperature checks or forms or anything like that, like when you check into your hotel or go to restaurants? [00:11:36.000] - Amber It depends, I think, on each place. So when you land, it it seems kind of funky, like you were waiting a really long line, almost like you're going through like a customs. And they check each family's QR codes and they have to check that. You filled out that form from the Travel Hawaii, which has all of your contact tracing, what resort you're going to be at. All of your information is there. [00:11:55.980] - Amber Once they double check that, then you're free to leave. Same kind of thing, though, when you show up to the hotel, just a little bit like extra steps. Like I think they needed to know our flight home. We again had to show the QR code. They needed to see each adult. We arrived really late at night and I was in the car with the kids waiting and I thought my husband could just check in, but they needed to see each adult in the party and have ID and your QR code. [00:12:16.890] - Amber So I think you just have to be ready to have to show those forms, especially with every adult. It seems like they need to check every adult. The only other thing that we saw when we went out at restaurants, especially being a larger party, being there with my brother and my family, even my own family, to be honest, because we're seven is the only allow groups of five at like restaurants so that they were very strict about almost every restaurant we went to. [00:12:39.060] - Amber We were never able to sit together. They said the state of Hawaii could get them in trouble. And so, you know, obviously a very respectful but I think it's important for people to know in advance because I had my kids been younger ages, it would have been really difficult for us to have, you know, all of seven of us at one table and one. [00:13:06.710] - Tamara Meanwhile, teens are probably like, yeah, we're fine. We're fine. [00:13:10.110] - Amber Yeah, it was pretty much the teens at one table and our younger seven year old with us. [00:13:16.060] - Kim So beyond everyone's getting tested before they come in and then the basics of just wearing masks when you're outside and around others and social distancing and cleaning things like that, is there anything else that maybe feels different or seems different about Hawaii vacation right now? [00:13:31.600] - Amber Honestly, no, we had such an amazing vacation, it was such a huge breath of fresh air, I think we're pretty used to all those mandates now. That's the way we're living at home. [00:13:40.480] - Amber So to have to do that there didn't feel too awkward. And it was just, you know, the initial getting through the airport, there was a little bit different and nerve wracking once we were there. It felt really good. And there's a lot of open space in Hawaii where and it's very empty right now. So we'd be at beaches where there was hardly anybody there and definitely nobody within, you know, I mean, 20 or 30 feet of us. [00:13:59.920] - Amber So in those situations when we were hiking and stuff, we take our masks off if we were alone. So it felt really good to us. [00:14:07.430] - Tamara That's nice. It's good when you can feel, you know, like you are having a vacation, you are having something that's a break from the norm, I guess. [00:14:17.030] - Amber I mean, it definitely felt like a complete vacation. We didn't want to come home. [00:14:23.110] - Tamara So I know you say to the Disney Aulani, which is one of your favorite hotels, we had recently talked to Rob Taylor from two travel dads and he talked to us about what it's like to go to Walt Disney World right now and what a good job they were doing. So I'm hoping that you had the same experience at Aulani. But what was your experience like? Was it something where you were feeling very comfortable, where the things you think they could be doing better? [00:14:44.500] - Amber I thought that Aulani did a fantastic job. I mean, one of the reasons we chose to stay at the Aulani was because we had heard so many positive things about the way that they were doing things at Disney World. And we're big fans of Disney and we've been to Aulani. several times. Everybody at the resorts seemed to be not even have to have the rules be enforced. I think that at check in they let you know what the rules were there signs around everywhere and hands sanitizing stations are throughout the resort. [00:15:08.170] - Amber And thankfully, all the guests seem to just comply. So it's not like I was in a situation where I saw people having to, you know, be scolded or anything for not wearing masks. It just seemed like people were respecting each other. And I did speak with other guests who stayed at other resorts in Waikiki who were telling me that at their resort, the pool had like, you know, hours where they had to make a reservation to go to the pool and that it was a little bit more strict. [00:15:33.340] - Amber Once you're out at the Aulani, if you're in the pool area, you don't have to have your mask on. All the chairs are spaced within six foot distance. So there is that gathering rule again. So for my family, a little complicated because you can't have more than five people together in a group. So for larger families, I think, you know, that's something to pay attention to. But I think most families are probably about the size of five people. [00:15:57.310] - Kim And are they doing a lesser occupancy rate? We've been to the Aulani and the chairs are normally completely full on a sunny afternoon. So are they is doing an occupancy decrease so that there aren't so many people at the pools? [00:16:16.480] - Amber Yes. So there is an occupancy decrease and I cannot remember what it is,  but it is a reduced occupancy. And like you said, normally Aulani is very, very crowded. It it was very empty. You could you know, you didn't have to, like, run down to reserve chairs in the morning. There would be good seats available if you strolled into the pool area around two o'clock in the afternoon. [00:16:36.040] - Amber I did notice that it seemed like locals come in on the weekends. So if I was choosing to stay there I would definitely try to book a more of a midweek stay like a Sunday through Thursday stay just to avoid that crowd. We decided to leave the resort on those days to avoid having it crowded. But it still was less of a crowd than I was used to at Aulani. [00:17:01.520] - Tamara Now, what about when you went off property? Were there things that you had to keep in mind there, like did you need to make advance reservations or were there additional protocols that were in place there? [00:17:12.320] - Amber So we did several activities, including a cage dive with sharks, which they did check our QR code. And we also visited Waimea Valley, which is like a like a nature center. And they both of those places checked our QR codes before allowing us in. And they obviously made sure that all the normal restrictions of mask mandates and social distancing were told to us before we entered. But other than that, things seem to be pretty normal. We did try to keep in touch with what was going on as far as like on Yelp and stuff, trying to see what restaurants were open because some places have limited hours and some places were just closed completely. [00:17:48.560] - Amber I think that food was probably a tougher challenge than activities. [00:17:52.910] - Kim Yeah, that's what Tamara and I have noticed. You know, all the trips we took this summer is the restaurants and dining is the hardest part about travel right now just because, like you said, some restaurants haven't been able to keep their doors open, which is limited, the options that are open and then others are, you know, operating at 50 percent or something. And so getting, you know, the mass of people in and out is just really hard. [00:18:17.500] - Tamara So is a little side chat about what the heck with a shark cage dive? [00:18:22.860] - Kim I can't believe I'm ignoring it. I'm ignoring it and ignoring it. [00:18:27.200] - Amber It's in a cage. I was really nervous and I almost canceled before we went. I it was all my brother. He's the thrill seeker. So he wanted to do it. And then my husband, because they become competitive, and then I have an 18 year old son who has to prove himself when the guys are doing something. So I felt like I better go and make sure everybody's OK because I would have had a harder time sitting out, I think. [00:18:53.690] - Tamara Especially if you're like on the boat and you're looking down and seeing, like, fins circling your loved ones. [00:18:58.730] - Amber Right. Right. I mean, it's like I'd rather just be in it with them, but it ended up not being scary really at all. [00:19:04.550] - Amber And I know that it still is definitely, you know, a risk hopping into that cage. But it didn't feel as scary as I thought it would. [00:19:10.850] - Kim Well, the you guys weren't in, like, South Africa, right? You know, like the, you know, Great Barrier Reef, where it's like great whites, you know, bull sharks. [00:19:20.240] - Tamara It's like on our honeymoon we were in Bora Bora. And one of the things that we had signed up for was a shark and ray feeding. And my husband, who loves to dive, is just like, oh, they're just black tip reef sharks. And I'm like, they're sharks. Their face looks like sharks. Like when they're swimming right at you, it's a shark. And that's all you can think about. [00:19:36.710] And I remember the night before I am was cancelled, I was up like all night. I was terrified. And then it was no cage, you know, it was just like we kind of made a line, like behind a rope, kind of like you're snorkeling and it's like made a line and then they feed them right in front of you. So the sharks come and they swim like directly at your face. And it's like last minute they turn and they go back and oh my goodness, I lasted for like a couple of minutes and I'm like, I'll be in the boat. [00:20:07.820] - Tamara OK, well you're brave. I just had to ask about that. [00:20:12.290] - Amber So I'll get to food.  I was going to say one of the reasons we chose to stay at Aulani was we stayed in their villa, which has a small kitchen. And so we're able to stock up at Target before we got to the hotel. So we were able to do some meals, you know, within our little hotel room, which was super convenient and highly recommend, like maybe Airbnb stays or something like that, or resorts with kitchens would be nice right now. [00:20:40.520] - Kim If people don't know about Aulani, it's actually about would you say it's about forty minutes away from Honolulu, from the airport. [00:20:46.730] - Amber Yeah, I guess depending on your travel, because it's like kind of a suburb of sorts. [00:20:50.810] - Kim It's called javelina, but there's like a Costco right there too nearby. [00:20:55.250] - Kim And so it's it's definitely convenient if you can splurge for those kind of villa. I think that shopping and having food that you can make in your room is a definite plus right now. So I have an awkward question that I've heard some talk about it in some travel groups. But did you feel like there was any kind of negative vibe from the locals towards tourists that you know? [00:21:27.890] - Kim I know that it's kind of a double edged sword. It seems like Hawaii really wants the money that tourism brings. However, I know a lot of locals are kind of stressed and don't want tourists coming to their island and putting them at risk. So did you have any weird vibes that you felt like the locals weren't welcoming? [00:21:41.870] - Amber So we personally didn't. And I don't know if it would be, you know, whether or not you're following, you know, the restrictions and being respectful, like because to us, people were more than grateful to have a say. I like the small restaurants where, you know, over accommodating. They were, you know, making sure that they cleaned everything and thanking us. And so I had. Kind of the exact opposite, so it's probably just hit or miss, depending on who you run into, I guess. [00:22:07.200] - Tamara Yeah, that's good, I mean, it's it is a difficult challenge, I think it's a challenge for any tourism area and really every state to, you know, in that you need the economic boost that tourism brings. [00:22:19.740] - Tamara But, you know, it brings along some risk, too. So it's good to hear you weren't, you know, met with kind of open opposition, but more open arms. [00:22:29.340] - Tamara Well, since we have you on the podcast, we've talked about Hawaii on a few other episodes, but maybe we can just quickly get some of your thoughts and some of your favorite, you know, things to do in Hawaii and stuff. But do you have a favorite island? I know this time you went to Wahoo, but do you have a favorite overall? [00:22:46.130] - Amber It is such a hard question, I think, of why all the Hawaiian islands that I've been to or to just Kauai, Maui and Oahu Island, Kona are amazing. [00:22:53.840] - Amber I really like Oahu. I think that it's great. It's got that iconic North Shore and some big resorts. And if you're looking for more of the hustle bustle, it's there. But Maui is probably my ultimate favorite. It's just more relaxed than North Shore, less populated. And I love the road to Hana. That's really cool. Yeah, I've been to I still haven't been to the big island, so that's kind of the one I want to get on my bucket list. [00:23:17.020] - Kim But I've been to Oahu, Maui and Kauai, and I just love Oahu because I kind of I do like all the resort hotels, but I think the Kaanapali Beach area on Maui can bring that. And like it's like you said, kind of it's it's a little lesser, you know, a little more stepped back, which is kind of nice. And the road Hana is pretty awesome. [00:23:38.440] - Amber Right. And then Kauai is like so lush and beautiful, but it's like I feel like even more deserted. Kona is like the big island. It was a trip to me because it's more volcanic. So I remember getting off the plane and being like, it's all black. Yeah. And there's goats like mountain goats like where's the kitchen? Where's the palm trees? I was really confused. You drive up to the resorts and you'll find the beaches there. But that one is definitely different. Very different. But you can see a live volcano, you know. Right. [00:24:05.620] - Tamara The only time I've been to Hawaii, we did the Big Island, mostly because we wanted to see a live volcano. But I had the first, you know, thought when I first got off because I'm like, hey, where's all the lush, you know, like this? But then we did Maui, too, and we definitely found it there. But I loved both. And I would just love to go back to now I need to do Kauai and Oahu. [00:24:25.990] - Kim So do you have any other favorite hotels in Hawaii that you stayed at or because like you said, Oahu for family is Aulani certainly is a nice draw. So any other favourite hotels for your family? [00:24:37.270] - Amber I Think that the best contender for Aulani to me is Grand Wailea in Maui, they have like interconnecting slides in the world, only water elevator. It's absolutely incredible. [00:24:47.770] - Kim Yeah, they are pretty nice there. [00:24:49.000] - Kim We stayed at the Sheraton, I think, and they have like a sister property now. I can't even remember it. And they have like all these pools that run throughout the resort and stuff. [00:24:58.900] - Kim And I've heard Grand Wailea has a similar kind of just the expansiveness of the pools and the grounds are really fun to explore, right? [00:25:07.850] - Amber Yeah, it's great for families. [00:25:10.720] - Tamara Well, what about some of your other favorite things to do with kids, maybe we can just touch on a couple in Maui and Oahu, since those are your top islands. [00:25:19.810] - Amber I mean, we go to Hawaii really to, like, turn off and relax. So a lot of times we just hit the beach and surf and boogie board and then go like hiking and snorkeling. I think in Maui, like I said, the road to Hana is really great. It wasn't really great when my kids were like four of them were really young and I didn't love it. But as they've gotten older, that's a really fun trip. [00:25:39.430] - Amber And obviously getting to North Shore and Oahu, we always see sea turtles and it's, you know, so fun to watch those incredible surfers surf there, too, [00:25:48.880] - Kim and get some shrimp you got for Giovanni's shrimp truck [00:25:53.140] - Amber or Macky's you know, it's like a big rivalry. [00:25:55.680] - Amber So you got to, I guess, eat from both and then choose, which is the one that you're going to support [00:25:59.710] - Kim and then get some Massimo's shaved ice afterwards. [00:26:02.860] - Amber Exactly. Yes, that is exactly what you need to do. [00:26:06.890] - Kim Cool. So do you have any final tips for listeners who are considering a visit to Hawaii during these times of covid anything to keep in mind that they should be aware of? [00:26:17.920] - Amber I think just do your homework, make sure you stay on top of updates, because unfortunately things do change, you know, as numbers change. So I think that way you're just prepared, you know what's going to happen. Make sure that you talk to the resort before you go so that you know what their policies are as far as, you know, the pool and stuff like that, activities that you're going to be doing. [00:26:35.180] - Amber So you have proper expectations when you get there. And then I mean, I know like sponsorship with Vault health, but I just was so impressed with them. I keep telling everybody about their services. [00:26:46.720] - Tamara And then I guess I think it's probably important to make sure when you're doing that research about Hawaii to understand your home state, you know, and if they have, you know, travel restrictions, I mean, luckily, Hawaii is the one state that whose numbers aren't going up as much. [00:27:00.640] - Tamara So maybe they're not on your travel restriction list. But, you know, to know if you have to quarantine when you get back or anything like that, [00:27:06.670] - Amber that's a really good point. And I think all of that, yeah, I was going to say, like California just went on lockdown now. And I think also a cancellation policies. A friend of mine had booked Kauai and was having trouble with their Airbnb, canceling that trip after California had a lockdown. Hawaii now has restrictions, not letting people in. So I think just, you know, making sure that you go in fully aware, like really make sure you're reading everything, asking questions. [00:27:29.830] - Amber I think it's important right now because travel can be done. [00:27:32.440] - Amber It's just a little bit more work. [00:27:34.940] - Kim Yeah, and just like you said, I know Delta has promised to keep the middle seats empty, I think through March and I know Alaska is through January, they're keeping their middle seats empty. And they are I think those those statements come with an Asterix, though, sometimes like if the flight ends up canceled or sold out or I don't know how that works, but it's definitely something to keep in mind also is getting their things to research and be aware of good will. [00:27:59.450] - Tamara We have a fun question for you. And I always think of things I don't know you may not want me to say a fashion icon, but you're always very stylish. And so I would love to hear from you what some of your favorite brands are. What what do you like to wear when you travel lately? [00:28:14.600] - Amber I've really loved Albian Fit, and it might be because I just did, you know, Hawaii. But their travel clothes are ones that I've had for years and they, like, don't go out of fashion. So I love it because I can just add a couple of pieces and, you know, it changes that the outfit I like to do those capsule wardrobes. And I think because they sell really high quality basics that are good for travel that they're kind of my go to. [00:28:34.190] - Amber And their swimsuits, honestly, are the best fitting swimsuits I like the most comfortable in those. [00:28:39.530] - Tamara Oh, that's nice. I love places that you can go to where you don't need to bring like so many extras and you like jackets and things like that because then you can fit more in your bag, you know. [00:28:50.390] - Amber Yes. I want it so easy. Yeah. One of my favorite outfits I always see you in Amber that you always pull off so well. It's just like a T-shirt with a blazer [00:28:58.580] - Kim and you wear the cutest little blazers. And every time I try to look for like a cute, like t shirt blazer combo, the Blazers are always like too long or too structured. So I don't know. I'll have to ask you later where you where you find your cute little khaki colored beige blazers. [00:29:13.550] - Amber I get them at Chicos. Everyday I get teased, but I always find, like, super cute like wraps. I think they call those ones like Rhona's or something like that. I might be saying it wrong, but those and blazers at Chico's and you can usually find them on sale too online. [00:29:27.950] - Tamara Thanks for your tips. That's great. So maybe we can just remind our listeners where they can find you online. And I imagine with California's recent lock down that you're not going anywhere anytime soon. But, you know, at least they can follow you online and you always post so much from your adorable family. [00:29:46.670] - Amber So there's still some trips because that's what I did. I decided to give away trips all through twenty, twenty one. And the travel is good through like twenty, twenty two. So, you know, somebody can travel someday since I'm but some are twenty, twenty one. [00:30:02.840] - Amber Right. People can follow us at global underscore munchkins on Instagram and then global munchkins dot com online. [00:30:11.200] - Tamara Perfect. Well, thanks so much for being on to share your recent experience with who I am glad that you guys had a wonderful time. I'm glad that you came back relaxed and ready to face whatever the next few months bring. [00:30:22.570] - Amber Right. Yeah. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. Thanks so much, Kim. [00:30:29.910] - Kim Well, thanks for joining us for another week here at Vacation MAVEN's. And you definitely want to tune in next week. What are we going to be talking about Tamara? [00:30:36.610] - Tamara We are going to be talking to someone who's going to teach us how families can fly free and that includes to Hawaii. [00:30:42.940] - Tamara And you can do that just within a few months. [00:30:45.520] - Tamara So, yeah, tune in, because I think we're all thinking about how to make our budgets stretch and still keep our travel dreams alive. So tune in on the next episode. Talk to you then. Bye bye.

Like everything, skiing is going to look a little different this year. This week on the podcast, Kim and Tamara talk about what to expect if you are planning a day trip or ski vacation this winter. Be prepared to make reservations, limited capacity, longer lift lines, and new lodge and shuttle procedures. Get the scoop! What to Expect at a Ski Resort in 2020-2021 Due to Covid, most resorts will ask you to book reservations in advance, which will make going for a last minute weekend trips harder. Priority for reservations has been given to season or EPIC pass holders. You are really going to have to do your research for the resorts you will want to go and find out what the rules and regulations are for booking your trip. You will also need to look into how you are going to get there. If you are going into a different state for your ski vacation you will also need to look into what that state's rules are for coming and going. Many ski resorts will not be running parking shuttles and/or mountain shuttles. If they are running, it will be at lower capacity and the wait times might be longer. A lot of Ski lodge eateries are going to require reservations. So you will need to plan out your runs more so that you don’t miss your reservation. Some places will also have a time limit that you will even be able to spend at your table. So no relaxing with a drink while you wait for your family to be done with a lesson or run. It will be easiest to stay in a ski in/ski out condo where you can make your own meals. If you or your child are going to need lessons, you will need to make reservations in advance. There likely will not be any full day ski programs for kids. Social distancing is a challenge in ski rental shops. It may be easier to arrange for ski rentals from a local ski shop and bring them with you. Alternatively, you can rent from someone that will deliver to your accommodations. You should look at your local state park websites and see if they offer any other winter activities like snowshoeing, sledding or even just playing in the snow. Mentioned on the Podcast Ski.com Episode 117 - Ski Resorts in the US for Family Travel Episode 37 - Planning a Family Ski Trip Read the Full Transcript [00:00:00.090] - Kim What to know before hitting the slopes this winter. [00:00:15.130] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens. A family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel. [00:00:30.340] - Tamara So Kim, winter is here and we are starting to think about what we're going to do outside since we know there's not a lot to do inside besides stay in our home. And I think you guys have really started to enjoy skiing a lot. Do you have plans to go skiing this winter? [00:00:47.160] - Kim Yeah, so we well, we had originally been thinking of going to Jackson Hole and that trip has been canceled, obviously. And so we are definitely sticking close to home. Thankfully, we have a local ski resort that's only about an hour and 15 minutes away that we like to go to. And it is an Epic Pass resort. [00:01:06.090] - Kim So we every year we kind of buy a four pack of passes for this resort and we go, you know, about once a month, sometimes twice. And so, yeah, we're planning on doing that again. It was a little different this year than what we've done in the past. So that was kind of the biggest change for us. But we're still planning on, you know, going skiing. We just know because of the changes, we're not able to just go, hey, do you guys want to go skiing this weekend? [00:01:30.360] - Kim Because, and that's what I'll go into I guess, is we bought our Epic Pass, which we normally end up buying them in October, that is when they start going on sale for the cheapest prices. [00:01:40.620] - Kim So it's kind of weird to be thinking that far ahead. But they start promoting and telling you to like buy in I think even August and September, they start selling the passes and by October they're giving you like, OK, it's the final day. You know, you need to get this purchased right away. And you can buy an Epic Pass that covers like a whole bunch of the Vail Resorts across the West Coast and even a lot of resorts in the East Coast also. [00:02:04.020] - Kim Or we buy just a four pack to our local resort that's close by and it's a little bit cheaper because it's a smaller resort. So we did that this year and got that purchase in advance. But then we got a notice that we had to make reservations for what days we want to go skiing this year, which is the big change, I think, that people might not be prepared for. [00:02:24.570] - Tamara Yeah, I've noticed that too. I've seen you know, I've kind of been tracking what's going on, even though I don't think we're going to be going skiing because there is actually one ski hill in Rhode Island, which is where you go to learn to ski, you know, initially. [00:02:39.510] - Tamara And I think Hannah did the black diamond after like six lessons, you know, so it's it's not much of a of a ski experience unless you're a little tiny kid learning to ski. [00:02:50.610] - Tamara But I've been listening to what's going on. And definitely it seems like many of the mountains are moving to this reservation system. I listened to a whole session from Ski Vermont, with all the different ski resorts kind of talking about their changes for this year. And it seems like some of the smaller mountains are not requiring reservations, but definitely all the bigger ones are. [00:03:14.930] - Tamara Not only that, but they're giving priority to reservations for pass holders. I think some of them are opening up for reservations on like December 8th. But the pass holders have already made all their reservations. So you're basically left with the leftovers at that point. [00:03:32.550] - Kim Yeah, that's been the biggest thing that the emails were suggesting and that I've seen is that pass holders have priority. So people who have like Epic Pass and Icon Pass and stuff like that. [00:03:41.820] - Kim And even, you know, if you have a season pass for that ski resort, they're giving those pass holders first option to book their their days. [00:03:52.050] - Kim So if you're planning on just buying a, you know, regular ski pass, you might have some trouble on the weekends getting a date. So it's definitely something you need to look into and be prepared for. [00:04:03.630] - Tamara Yeah, I know that in the past we've mostly done ski weekends when we go to Maine or Vermont and those you book in advance anyway because of your accommodations and you kind of hope for the best weather. But for more local things, sometimes I've been tempted to like go on Lifttopia and buy some passes in advance. [00:04:21.510] - Tamara But then I'm like, well, suppose like the weather isn't great, you know, because it varies so much and I've always like held off and now it's like, well, you're really locked in, especially, you know, it's one thing if you're making it like a weekend and it's if you if it isn't a great ski day, maybe the resort has like other things to do. [00:04:39.180] - Tamara But for you guys, where it's just like, OK, we're driving an hour and 15 minutes, we're going to ski this day, you know what? If the snow is terrible, what if it rains? There's like a lot more risk involved. [00:04:54.210] - Kim There's definitely a lot more risk because we've had those days where it's like, oh, it's you know, especially later in the spring here, out here by us, we they have something called Cascade Concrete. And as it gets towards, you know, February, March, the snow gets really wet and the way it falls really heavy and fast and wet, it's it's just like you get locked into place, like you can't even move. One time in March, our in-laws are visiting and they actually know where they had to carry like Lizzie and Mia down the hill because they couldn't even ski or move. [00:05:26.940] - Kim And their body weight isn't enough to break through the the thickness of the snow. So, yeah, I mean, if you pick a day and it's snowing heavy like that and you've got that really wet snow, you're kind of just wasted your pass day and you don't have as much freedom to go, oh, let's not go today because, you know, it's a lot of wet snow. So that's kind of a bummer. [00:05:45.740] - Tamara Yeah, we have that issue a little bit differently, but we get a lot of, ice and,  things like that or, sometimes like last winter, there wasn't a lot of snow,  so you could get up there and it's only the snow that they've made and that might be really icy. And I don't I don't really like skiing when it's only the snow that they've made because it's bare next to where your are skiing. [00:06:07.730] - Tamara And I know one time we were up in Okemo in Vermont, like one of the first weekends that they were open and they had such a base built up on the trails. But if you went off the edge of the trail, it was like you were just dropping down a few feet onto the ground. And it was also a weekend. It was like the first weekend ski racing was open and they were one of the first ones open in the state. [00:06:31.050] - Tamara So like all the ski racers in the in the whole state were there on the slopes, meanwhile, we're not confident skiers. And you got ski racers, zooming by you and. Yeah, this drop off the edge. We're like, oh, this is not an ideal experience. We're used to going in January, February like that. Not early in the season. [00:06:50.000] - Tamara Yeah. So I think that that's definitely an issue and it's but there's no way around it, you know, unless you are going to one of the smaller ski mountains, that doesn't require a reservation. [00:06:58.280] - Tamara I think really as with everything when it comes to covid and travel right now, it's doing your research during your research, not being a last minute planner and making sure that you're really reading through the website and the protocols and you're planning in advance and which, again, planning in advance a little bit difficult these days when you're like, I don't know what travel restrictions will change or will I be healthy and, you know, all those kind of things. [00:07:25.880] - Tamara So it's definitely it's a challenge. But hopefully, when people are out there, you'll feel like normal and you can enjoy the outdoors, the views, the exercise. [00:07:38.450] - Kim I think skiing would be the perfect kind of vacation getaway for 2020 or even, you know, winter 2021. Seems like it would be perfect. So we'll see. I think, though, if you're a first time skier and or if you're not really confident or if you're not into stresses and stuff like that, I probably would say this might be the winter to hold off and, you know, plan for that next ski vacation next winter, because I think there are going to be a lot of a lot of extra hiccups and things to think through. [00:08:13.310] - Kim So just now we've talked about the reservations and getting on the hill. But just getting to the hill is going to be another consideration people have to take into account. I've heard that some places are reserving parking lot reservations to be able to actually drive and park and other resorts are not running the mountain shuttles that normally would pick up in the town and drive you up to the mountain. [00:08:37.340] - Kim I think that some of those shuttles are either not being run at all or if they are, they're being run at a very low capacity, which is going to affect wait times and things. [00:08:45.830] - Tamara And there's nothing I hate more than having to schlep all my stuff and standing around and waiting for a shuttle. It's so irritating and frustrating. My biggest recommendation for this year would be splurge for the ski in, ski out like condo or hotel. [00:09:06.800] - Tamara I remember one year we were up at Mount Snow and Hannah had a fever, which, you know, thinking back like that would been a whole different thing now. [00:09:16.040] - Tamara But  she really wanted to try to ski and we didn't realize how sick she was. So we were on the lift and her head whent down an clunked against the bar and I was like, oh my God, she is going to pass out on the lift. So I got her down and we went and we had to wait for a shuttle to get back to our condo. And I'm holding both of our stuff because she's too sick and I'm like propping her up and trying to get us on. [00:09:45.410] - Tamara I think our listeners might know that one of my favorite places to ski is Sun River in Maine. And there we usually do a ski in ski out condo. But there have been times where we might be staying off property and Glenn might drop us off at the front and then he would go park. [00:10:03.380] - Tamara And of course unless you're there really early, you have to park pretty far away and hope that there's a shuttle, but you can always walk it. In a lot of places, it's just too far to walk. Also at Sunday River and a lot of mountains, there are multiple mountains on the resort. So you can ski, take one lift up and you're skiing around and you kind of ski down  another side. And then to get back to your original lodge, you have to take a shuttle if you don't want to go back up another trail. [00:10:34.820] - Tamara I definitely think, like every step of the experience, you have to think about what that's going to look like. If you are there for the day, a lot of times you just shove your bag either in a locker or just in the lodge somewhere and hope nobody takes it and you just leave there and you go back whenever you need to get it, that's going to look different this year. [00:10:53.620] - Kim Yeah, definitely. Everything you're saying is exactly what I think some of the things are that people have to consider. And I know that the other thing we should talk about is renting gear as its going to be another huge factor because people are cannot be crammed in a line and at the rental store waiting for their gear, it's going to have to be spread out. [00:11:17.230] - Kim And there's really going to be longer waits because they're not going to be able to cram in. I'm sure you've had this. I don't know how often you've rented, but there's like ten people on a bench and you're all getting fitted with your boots and all that stuff. [00:11:28.480] - Tamara We almost always rent because Hannah had some when she was younger, but she doesn't anymore. And Glenn has boots but not skis. So, yeah, we're always renting something. I think rentals are going to look totally different. Yeah. What we've done a lot of times is rent locally at a local ski shop and then bring it up with us. [00:11:47.380] - Kim Yeah, I agree. We have all of our own gear and so when we go locally we just take our gear, of course. And but when we've gone on trips we've always rented. But I do know something that people will want to look into is a lot of rentals will actually deliver your rentals if you're staying on property. And so if you have that option, if you are going somewhere, you're going to need rent. Try and find an outfitter that will deliver to your condo or whatever, because I think that's going to be that's always better anyways, because you waiting in those lines on their first morning is brutal. [00:12:21.310] - Tamara oh, I hate that. I always try if we can get in like the night before, before it closes,  to pick up then. But sometimes you have only a certain number of hours or days. When I was booking travel for people I used ski.com and they did a lot of total packages where it was the accommodations, the lift tickets, and the rentals that were delivered to your accommodations. And that was a really nice one stop shop, so it might be something that people would look into. [00:12:52.960] - Kim Yeah, I think that's a good thing. So we've talked about reservations. We've talked about rentals. We've talked about shuttles and parking. What else do you think we should talk about? Probably eating. I think that's going to be another big thing. And the lodges. [00:13:05.860] - Tamara Yeah, definitely. I've looked at a couple of the mountains that we've typically gone to, and  they're all doing reduced capacity when it comes to how many people can be in either a restaurant or even the kind of the more self serve type of things. So that's good. And that, to me, is always such a pain, my preference, and I think you're this way, too, is to ski as long as I can. And go inside after the main lunch crowd has eaten. And then I'm basically done for the day. Once I warm up and I loosen my boots and all of that and I've had my my beer I'm about done. [00:13:48.850] - Tamara But right now it looks like a lot of them are going to require a reservation for any of the sit down dining. And that impacts where you are on the mountain, how many more runs are you going to do, to get there in time for this reservation. [00:14:07.210] - Tamara You can't always plan it out quite so perfectly, not like when you are in the lodge and walking down to the restaurant. And then also they're going to have a cap of the time that you spend there. So my whole thing of like, oh, let's have my ramen soup and my beer and just hang out until Hannah's done her lesson, maybe can't do that anymore. [00:14:28.960] - Tamara I definitely think the ski in ski out would be so much easier. You can just go back to the condo and have your lunch there whenever you need to. [00:14:40.360] - Kim I think this is the year to, like you said, splurge for the ski and ski out condo and do your grocery shopping and all that. Because I know we stayed. Was it last year? Was that two years ago now? Now I can't even remember at Keystone. And it was an amazing time. We loved that. And we stayed in there in Riverrun Village and it was a condo and we were in walking distance. [00:15:02.170] - Kim I mean, it was a little bit of a walk, so you had to carry your gear and a lot of people had little wagons they would just pull behind them and carry their skis and boots and all that. But I think that it's definitely the year to do that because otherwise, your options are to packing lunch and snacks and all of that in the car. [00:15:27.460] - Kim And so then when everybody's ready for lunch, we'll be coming back to the parking lot, sitting in the car, eating our lunch and stuff, and then gearing back up and going back to finish out the day skiing. Normally in our family, the girls get lunch in the lodge and they eat macaroni and cheese or whatever they want, and then head back out on the mountain and then on their way home, they grab an early dinner. And normally, I know this sounds crazy about McDonald's, but that's kind of their tradition. [00:16:06.610] - Kim But I think your car is going to be your home base if you do not have a ski in ski out situation. I think that's what people should count on. And like I don't know how bathrooms are going to be handled because they're always so crazy and dirty. [00:16:22.960] - Tamara  I was just thinking about that. I wonder if they will put in porta potties. Can you imagine trying to go in a porta potty in a snowstorm? Oh my goodness. [00:16:37.930] - Kim You know, this would be the year to make sure you have the pants and not the bibs with the suspenders because they're going to be hanging down on who knows what. [00:16:45.670] - Tamara Yes. It's so funny because obviously we're middle aged women and our listeners know bathrooms are something we think about. [00:16:54.220] - Tamara  I was listening to this ski Vermont call and they were talking about lessons and, so we'll talk about lessons in a second. But one of the thing with lessons with little kids is some of them need some help, like you said, with all that gear, going to the bathroom. And so they were saying,  we're not going to be able to do that. So you can only have a lesson if your child can, you know, go to the bathroom ourselves and all that. [00:17:18.530] - Tamara For lessons I used to sign her up for a full day lesson and they would all go and eat lunch together in their own little space. But that's not going to be allowed anymore. [00:17:28.660] - Tamara Obviously the size of lessons is going to be reduced. I think it's only going to be a half day or shorter lessons and then you can have a family lunch in between or something. [00:17:40.630] - Kim There's going to be a lot of differences and reservations, of course. [00:17:43.630] - Tamara Yeah. That's the one thing I've seen is that if you do want ski lessons, you need to make a reservation in advance. I'm curious how they'll do it. I don't know. I wonder if pricing will be higher because it's going to be semiprivate versus, you know, a big group of kids. So I don't know what that's going to look like because normally it's two kind of instructors and then like a class of like ten to twelve kids. [00:18:22.690] - Tamara I know some of the resorts were debating whether or not they should even open because even just hiring, I'm thinking in Vermont, a lot of resorts might hire from out of state and you can't do that now. [00:18:33.640] - Kim And so, yeah, I guess that they're living there. [00:18:36.490] - Tamara You can, but you don't know like what capacity you're actually going to have. [00:18:43.600] - Kim It's just really a huge task. And I really feel for the ski resorts trying to do their best. But there's so many contact points, you know, there's so many things to to think through for sure. And we didn't even talk about the lifts. [00:18:59.230] - Tamara Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's going to be that's going to be interesting because obviously you can't travel up with someone that is not in your party. So lift lines might move a little slower. And I know in the past well, because I love the part of the mountain that's, you know, not the blacks. So I go I tend to ski near where the ski school is. And so often the kids will be coming up and they'll be like, can you take one? Can you take one? Which always stressed me out anyway. Like, I don't want to be responsible for my own. [00:19:32.450] - Tamara I think I've talked about this before, but when you're already not a fully confident skier, especially, a few years ago before I had the experience that I do now, I was worried about getting myself off the lift, I didn't want to worry about a little kid. [00:19:46.510] - Tamara And then the few times we brought up a little kid, they're fearless and they're just kicking their feet and they're leaning down. They're sliding down. I'm like, oh, my God, they're going to go under. [00:19:54.540] - Kim Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:19:57.540] - Tamara And sometimes I would just be like, I'm really sorry, but I'm not comfortable because I don't want my kid with somebody that's not like fully comfortable. [00:20:06.960] - Tamara Yeah. So it'll definitely be a little bit slower on the lines. And then I have a feeling though, more people, more resorts might be moving to the scanners or the RFID where you don't have to get close to scan somebody. So maybe that can go like a little faster. [00:20:37.360] - Kim I think that it's going to be interesting also because I mean I'm thinking in those lines, like even when we talked to Rob with the Disneyland. Or I mean, Disney World and Universal, and he was talking about the switchbacks are skipped even, and I hadn't even considered that, like I was only thinking of the people, like in front of you being six feet apart. [00:20:55.810] - Tamara But, yeah, when you have, like, a normal like a snake line formation where you're backtracking back and forth and zigzagging you, I mean, you got to skip six feet there, too. [00:21:06.760] - Kim And so I don't know how the lines will work. I mean, I think in some ways it seems like it's going to be better because they're limiting the amount of people they're going to give passes to each day. But when you think of the limitations of, you know, only your party can go on the up the chairlift and things like that, it's going to look very different. And then I was even thinking like Keystone, they have a big tubing hill that's really fun and awesome. [00:21:33.340] - Kim And I'm thinking of that because when we were there, you know, everyone's just grabbing their tube and rushing over to get back up the because you get to be there for like an hour. [00:21:41.730] - Kim So the faster you are, getting off the hill and up back up the little conveyor belt that takes you up the mountain, the more rides you can get in. But that's just packed person to person to person. And so even that's going to be have to be spread out. So that's going to be a lot slower. And then you're not going to be waiting back to back with these people to go for your turn to go down the hill. [00:22:04.240] - Kim So that's going to all just look very different. So I don't know what what's going to happen with some of those extracurricular things, too. But, yeah, I think the the lines on the chairlifts are going to be are going to move slower and they're probably going to be a lot more spread out than you're used to. [00:22:18.760] - Tamara Yeah, because I'm thinking of different ones that I'm familiar with. And it's not necessarily the zigzag, but there might be three lines, coming in and then you alternate, when you get up to the front. [00:22:40.480] - Tamara One thing that we haven't talked about yet, too, is just,  travel restrictions. Yeah. I know that, you know, we we've been dealing with travel restrictions here for many months, but places like California and even Washington, you know, like you, you guys have started to implement at least recommendations or some restrictions. And, I think about Vermont was saying that they are usually so busy with people from New York and New Jersey that come up because they're one of the closest resorts for that. [00:23:09.160] - Tamara And they don't anticipate that that would happen this year because they have a 14 day quarantine requirement or can do like seven days plus a test. [00:23:20.020] - Tamara But you're certainly not going to have weekend people that are coming up. And I did ask because everyone's like, well, are they really checking? I asked a couple of the different major resorts and hotels and they actually said that they reach out to everyone that they see from out of state with an out-of-state reservation. [00:23:38.620] - Tamara So this wouldn't probably be the same for some rentals, you know, but for at least hotels, if they see you're coming from a state that would require a quarantine, which is pretty much everyone, they reach out to you and they ask you like, what's your plan? And you have to submit something that says I'm quarantined at home or this is where I'm quarantining before I arrive. [00:23:56.630] - Tamara So they are being proactive with it. So it's not like I'll just ignore that guideline. [00:24:03.730] - Kim Yeah, I think that's one of the big reasons Washington and I think California is a recommended as well. I can't remember California, but they're not able to enforce it. And I think it's because you get to a certain level of people and they just can't follow up with every reservation in person. But that's good that it's being I mean, it's kind of like, again, going back to that idea of the theme parks you can have rules, but enforcing them is what's going to actually provide the the feeling of safety. [00:24:33.700] - Tamara So definitely and honestly, I mean, we should just talk about the elephant that's in the room, which is we all know that right now there's not many places where cases aren't on the rise. [00:24:44.770] - Tamara You know, things aren't looking good. So I think what you are planning is is good, right? You're local. You're just going to drive there and follow the protocols and enjoy your day. But in terms of, like ski travel, I think people really need to think about what that really would entail and whether or not that is something that they should really be taking part of right now. [00:25:09.850] - Kim Well, I know this is kind of getting a little macabre, but even looking at if something does happen to you on a ski hill and you have a catastrophic accident or whatever, like, you know, ICU room beds and hospitals near some of these ski resorts and what are their what are their abilities to take care of you at that point? [00:25:38.380] - Kim I know that Idaho is very popular ski resort, but I know last month they were asking Washington State whether they could take some patients and staff possible, they're trying to set up things to possibly take some patients because of the covid numbers on the rise there and the hospitals being full. [00:25:56.660] - Kim So that's definitely another aspect, like you said, to keep in mind and whether people should be traveling or feel comfortable traveling right now and doing something that is kind of a, you know, not high risk sport, but it is a sport that comes with possible consequences. [00:26:11.800] - Tamara It does. I know a number of people that have broken things. You know, I mean, it doesn't have to be completely catastrophic, but even that is exactly not ideal for sure. I mean, even here in Rhode Island, they opened field hospitals yesterday. [00:26:31.360] - Kim So I think that's just something for everyone to keep in mind. We're not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but definitely something to consider. And and all of this information hopefully won't even be a problem. And if you just think, you know, try and maybe stay close to home and then look ahead to next winter might be a fabulous time. And you can really relax and enjoy it. [00:26:55.480] - Tamara And for the people that don't live near a ski resort, it's definitely a good time to start thinking about next year. If you wanted to go back and listen to a couple of our previous episodes, I know we did Episode 117, which was 2019. We did an episode on the best ski resorts for families. And so that would give people a lot of ideas. [00:27:17.680] - Tamara We tried to cover both the East Coast, West Coast, Colorado, Utah area. So we've got a lot that we covered in that one that would be good to go back and listen to. And then we did a previous episode. I can't remember the number of that one, but it was just kind of about planning your first ski trip for a family and things to keep in mind. So some good episodes to go back to two really good ones. [00:27:39.190] - Kim I think skiing is a fun sport. It's expensive also. And I think that's another thing for people to just keep in mind is the the cost of lift tickets and everything, make sure you're looking into that in advance and rentals and getting that all figured out, you know, so you're not surprised by anything. [00:27:54.730] - Tamara Yeah. And in the meantime, I think that there's also other ways to get outside this winter. I know that snowshoeing is going to be really popular as well as Nordic skiing, because there you don't have to deal with some of the same issues in terms of the lines and things like that. And and many times, if a resort offers Nordic or snowshoeing, many times it's out of a separate lodge or soopers facility, you know, so you're not always dealing with the the main crowd. [00:28:23.770] - Tamara It's funny, there have been so many different things where I've predicted like, oh, there's going to be a run on that. I'm like there's going to be a run on snow shoes by that. It's funny though because I forget we were watching, but it was like a commercial or something. And they're like, this is hard to find. And Hannah looked at me and she was like, you just said, that was going to be hard to find like a month ago. And I'm like, I should go play the lottery. [00:28:46.570] - Kim Yeah, exactly. You should be in marketing. So that makes sense. [00:28:53.050] - Kim Well, and that was what I was going to say, is I actually and I feel kind of stupid for not realizing this, but I actually recently looked up because I was trying to figure out if I could find snow anywhere near as that has like an easy parking lot for like from some photos I wanted to get. And I realized that in our state if  youlook up your state park system, so for me, Washington state parks, and you can find that they actually have snow parks. And these are parks that are specifically designed for people to just go play in the snow. So you can do you can park at a trailhead and you can go snowshoeing or you can, you know, build a snowman or you can go sledding and things like that. And some have there's also some winter recreation parks specifically for like snowmobiles. [00:29:35.950] - Kim And then they'll have like non motorized that are specifically, again, for people to be able to go snowshoeing and play in the snow and sledding. So if you're curious and you want to get out and enjoy the winter, look up your state park system and see what they have listed for like winter recreation, because you might be surprised and find that there's some, you know, parks specifically for snow play and or trails specifically for, you know, like you said, snowshoeing and Nordic skiing. [00:30:00.310] - Kim So don't be scared to look on your local state park website. [00:30:04.420] - Tamara That's a great recommendation. Definitely not something that I think I have here. But, you know, many places that would have larger state park systems or more opportunity for snow probably would. So it's great. [00:30:16.690] - Kim Yeah, well, you just go in your backyard, right? [00:30:18.970] - Tamara Well, hopefully not too much. I mean, we did have that one snow in October, but last year we didn't get very much. I really enjoy snowshoeing. You know, I've done it a couple of times. I've always surprised by what hard work it is, you know. But I would like to get snow shoes. But they're  a little pricey. I mean, you can get them for like one hundred and fifty or so. [00:30:42.580] Yeah. Good ones. Because if you're going to buy some, you want to splurge a little because you want the lightweight ones, because it is hard work and lifting your feet up and stuff, you definitely want the you want the titanium ones, not the stainless steel or whatever. [00:30:57.440] - Tamara And then I'm like, do I really want to get them now when I don't really want to spend money and who knows if it'll snow or not. And you know, it's one of those things. [00:31:13.590] - Kim  Yeah, well, it might be a time to look also on your local Craigslist or Facebook marketplace, because people might be upgrading their snowshoes this year and getting rid of older ones. [00:31:23.490] - Tamara You know, you never know. It's funny. Right before the pandemic, I've had my basement for years. Hannah's old skis and and ski boots, like from when she was really little that I have never bothered to bring to a place to sell. [00:31:35.280] - Tamara And I keep thinking, should I donate it or should I sell it? So I had that for a while. And then I had a chest freezer that we just hadn't used in years. And before the pandemic, I sold both of them. But I sold both of them. And I'm like, well, that was bad timing. Like, I could have gotten so much more. So much more. And it's funny, I guess I'm good with some timing and bad with others. [00:32:04.110] But hopefully we'll all find some ways to get outdoors this winter because we'll need we'll need it. We'll need the fresh air. We'll need the change of scenery. I know there used to be so many places that we would go in the winter to, you know, be entertained even when it's freezing out. And those are not places that I feel comfortable going right now. [00:32:24.120] - Kim Well, most of them are not open anyway. Yeah, I was going to say I feel like for us, it's  cruising is always a very popular thing for people to go down to the Caribbean and take a cruise. And I don't know where people are going to escape to this winter. [00:32:36.960] - Tamara Well, I know that we will be inside a bit more this winter and not really going to many places. But do you have any holiday plans? Do you have any special traditions or things that you're going to put in place for the girls to try to make it as festive as you can? [00:32:52.900] - Kim I think it's probably going to be a pretty standard holiday for us. We already if some people follow me on Instagram, they already maybe saw that one of our biggest traditions because we live in Washington state is that we we go and pick out our Christmas tree at a local Christmas tree farm in advance. [00:33:08.830] - Kim And so we you know, at the beginning of November, we go and you walk around their farm and you pick the tree you want and you wrap it up and you take off a little tag and they write it down that this is your tree. And so then we went the weekend of Thanksgiving and we actually cut down our tree and brought it home and then we'll decorate it and everything. So that's kind of one of our big holiday traditions. And it is interesting, though, is that girls have gotten older. [00:33:32.620] - Kim They're less like into it, as we used to be, which is kind of sad. But so we're we're sticking with that. And then we'll just have our standard, you know, holiday. My mom is our she's lives out here and she's alone. And so she part of kind of our bubble unit. And so we'll have her over for Christmas. And that's that's about it. It'll be a pretty easy at home. We had planned to go to Canada like we try and add in Canada a couple every few years. [00:33:59.500] - Kim And we were this was supposed to be a Canada Christmas year. So for us, we are not going to Canada for Christmas, but we will still have a wonderful time at home and just relax. And I know that Paul has a bunch of vacation time, so he's going to be taking off. I think he gets like the two weeks, the last two weeks of the year off. So that'll be a nice little thing to have just some family time at home. [00:34:21.580] - Tamara That's good. Hopefully he can do some skiing. [00:34:24.400] - Kim Yeah, exactly. We've got a couple a few days. We've got four days booked, so. Yeah. So what about you guys? Do you have any holiday plans this month and in the year? [00:34:33.610] - Tamara This will be definitely very different for us because we're never home on Christmas. You know, we always go down to my mom's house and we see my whole family for Christmas and she lives in New Jersey. And it's if we put our whole like my immediate family, my brothers, my sisters, their kids, now, they're kids, kids together. I think we're like twenty six people. So that is not happening. So it'll be sad. [00:34:57.490] - Tamara I'll be the first time ever that we've been home for Christmas. And as you guys know, like we have a Jewish home, so we don't have a Christmas tree and all that kind of stuff. And I've never really thought about it because we're just not here. I don't want to miss the specialness of it, but I don't know quite what to do to create it. You know, it's only it's just the three of us. [00:35:26.080] - Tamara It's always just the three of us, you know, like we don't have anybody nearby. So I'm not sure. But I think what I will enjoy is the fact that this month is going to be quieter. You know, usually it feels like such a rush and so busy and so I don't feel like making Christmas cookies because I always go down to New Jersey and my sister makes like twenty six kinds of cookies and my brother makes like twenty kinds. [00:35:52.630] - Tamara My mom makes like twenty kinds and they all give us like these big tins of cookies and we come back and we have cookies for like months. So I was like OK Hannah like let's make some cookies, like let's pick which ones we want to make. We're going to make cookies and we'll deliver them to like her friends and, you know, we'll deliver them to people. So that'll make us feel like we're doing something special. And then a lot of times, like for Hanukkah, it is like on top of Christmas or it's like too early. [00:36:18.700] - Tamara It's you know, it's like it's never a great time. And we like I like to make potato pancakes and applesauce. [00:36:29.380] - Tamara And when I do it, I make like pounds and pounds of potatoes. So it's like a whole day affair, like I'm frying for hours and then my entire house smells. The kitchen is like coated in grease. So it's basically like my time to deep clean the kitchen. I cook all day and then I clean it all spraying down the cabinets and everything like it, everything really clean, you know. [00:36:53.740] - Tamara  But I don't always have time to do that. So some years I'm like, oh, I'm just not like making them this year because it's not worth the effort to just make a few. It's like you want to make a lot. So I think this year, like that weekend, that Hanukkah falls over, like I'll just make a bunch of latkes and maybe do the same, like give them out to some people and, you know, make it festive. [00:37:14.680] - Tamara We are going to do like a drive through holiday lights thing. [00:37:22.390] - Tamara But you know what to figure out as we go. I mean it in a way it's like nice to not have to travel, but our Christmas is like this Christmas spectacular of you know, we drive down to New Jersey and Christmas Eve is at my brother's house and he has done for thirty years, I think, like where he does appetizers and we look forward to certain appetizers that he does. [00:37:43.120] - Tamara And then Christmas Day, we used to always go to my sister's house and now we go to my nephew's house. And then the day after Christmas, my mom does a whole big dinner and we. Are all at her house, you know, and then we drive home the next day and sometimes we stop at New York, in New York on the way home and we see some family there, or we visit the, you know, the Christmas decorations in New York City, you know, do something like that. [00:38:04.900] - Tamara So it's it's always been like a big thing. So it's going to be like definitely really different. And if anybody wants to send me a little holiday cheer message, I'm sure that I will appreciate it at that time because I'm going to be just, like, bored. [00:38:21.260] - Kim Do you guys do light a menorah? [00:38:23.530] - Tamara We do at home. So, yeah, we'll be at least you'll be home for more of the and we'll all be here, which a lot of years like, you know, Glenn is traveling or something. [00:38:31.870] - Tamara So like I'll do the candles with Hannah, but then we don't always do like I used to always get her eight gifts and she would open one a day. This year she needed a new computer. So she's not getting gifts. [00:38:43.840] - Kim So you're like, here's a monitor, here's a mouse. Here's your cell, you know? [00:38:49.870] - Tamara Yeah, it'll it'll be different. In the New Year's Eve, we always the last quite a few number of years have done with our neighbors that live up the street. And they also love food the way that we do. And so Glenn and Greg just cook this amazing, like multi course, like gourmet food. We have caviar, we have oysters. Like, it's amazing. It's this it's actually my favorite day of the entire year. [00:39:16.090] - Tamara And I don't you know, I don't know if there'll be a way to do that safely or not. I was like, well, maybe we can deliver courses to each other and cook, like, over a face time. I don't know, we have to figure out if there's a way,  we'll be quarantined. [00:39:27.670] - Tamara So if you guys are willing to quarantine ahead of time because we don't we won't be seeing anyone, then we'd be good. But I think they would do it, but I'm not so sure their sons would be willing to do that. [00:39:39.610] - Kim Teenagers make things a little tricky. Well, and we have right now that with Lizzie has a job now outside the home. So that's she's kind of our biggest risk for our family because the rest of us are at home all the time. So yeah, it's definitely gets interesting. It's really hard to find someone that you can, you know, pod up with that. [00:40:23.050] - Kim Yeah, well, hopefully it'll work out and that you guys will have some new memories and discover some fun ways, you know, fun activities together and stuff. I hope it works out. And for all of our listeners, this is going to be our last episode for the year. So we are wrapping up 2020. It was definitely a different year than other years for Vacation Mavens. And hopefully you guys have enjoyed what we've still shared. And we really appreciate you guys coming along during these crazy times. [00:40:50.950] - Kim And, you know, joining us every other week to listen to what we ramble on about. [00:40:57.010] - Tamara Yeah, we definitely really, really appreciate it, especially sticking with us when, you know, we all know we're not traveling as much as possible. And we always love those kind of encouraging messages that listeners send about different episodes or just when when we realize that someone that follows us on Instagram is also a listener, you know, things like that. It's just it's very heartwarming. And we definitely appreciate it. [00:41:21.430] - Kim And we hope that you all have a very safe and wonderful holiday season. We will be back, you know, next year, probably going to stick to our every other week schedule for a while until at least until travel should pick up more. And we actually enjoy having a little extra time in our schedules, too. So definitely. Anyway, wishing everyone a very happy holiday. Yeah. Happy holidays, everyone. Thanks again by.

Episode 044 - Interview with Accounting Expert Kim Storen PART 2 Accounting! What topic could be more fun than accounting and taxes? Maybe watching grass grow or paint dry? Well, we have a special guest discussing those topics--and more--for two episodes! Believe it or not, she brings life to the subject of taxation! Kim Storen from Storen Financial is a breath of fresh air, especially after listening to B bloviate for 42 episodes. In PART 1, Kim gave us tips and suggestions to prepare for end-of-year tax items. In PART 2, Kim discusses questions she frequently gets, such as Meal and Entertainment, Leasing vs. Buying, and Home Office Deductions It's never too late to make changes or find a better plan to save money and make wiser financial decisions. In this timely episode, hear more about how to make better choices to run your business intentionally. PROGRAMMING NOTE:  the YouTube video of this episode includes our favorite Podcast Pup Jack-Jack, a stray cricket on Kim’s headphones, and a special treat at the very end!   SHOW NOTES 01:20 – Ep. 44; we brought back Kim Storen. Be sure to listen to last week’s episode. Taxes are Fun! 01:55 – Cate: let Kim go on all day. Christian: she only gets 28 more minutes. Take that Cate! 02:22 – Song of the Episode: Johnny Cash, “After Taxes”. 03:03 – Christian never saw Johnny Cash, but saw his brother Tommy Cash. (Christian note: After the show was recorded, we learned that Tommy Cash is also a real estate agent in Nashville and sold Johnny’s home after Johnny passed away.) 04:00 – Lyrics to "After Taxes"…and Kim is visibly shaken. 05:02 – Kim Storen: Eric Church fans search the notes below him at the ACM Awards 2020. He did a tribute to Johnny Cash. 06:14 – Kim hijacked B’s song of the episode two weeks in a row. 06:40 – Kim loves taxes and Eric Church. Was that a snort? 07:12 – Kim and B are going to write a book about working with their spouses. 08:15 – Tax fact: male’s name goes first on tax returns. 09:34 – Kim’s Tax Tips: Mileage, make sure you’re tracking. Use a tracking app. At the very least, write down the mileage on your car at the beginning of the year and then again at the end of the year. IRS wants proof of your miles, not just a record. 11:40 – Meals and entertainment: entertainment is not deductible; meals are deductible; cannot take your own lunch as a meal; can buy a meal for someone else; meals are usually 50% deductible unless it is for the office in which case it is 100% deductible. 14:00 – Kim just taught B something he didn’t know. How is that possible? 14:22 – Writing off a trip: what is the primary purpose of the trip? If it is personal, you can only deduct the part of the trip that is a business. Keep your agenda. 15:40 – In 20 years Kim has had two full blown audits, but most of the time now it is just a letter/mail audit. 16:40 – B: algorithms, bots, etc. are tracking so many thing now. 17:38 – Cate must interrupt us, again, with her Side Note Tangent: Jack-Jack is visiting us, and Cate brought up that we all have work pups. B & Cate have Rey and Mer, and Kim & Greg have Churchie and Tank. (Watch the YouTube video to see pics of our pups). Send us pics of your pups. 19:35 – Kim: dogs cannot be a deduction on your taxes unless they are a medical or seeing eye dog. 20:08 – Kim notes a study that shows people are happier with a dog. 20:33 – “Don’t spend a dollar to save $0.30 in taxes.” Comparing that to Kohl’s Cash. Don’t spend a bunch of to save a small amount of taxes. You are likely better off to keep the money, pay the tax and come out ahead. 22:12 – Cate: projections and look at spending intentionally. 22:45 – Kim: buying a car is limited by the IRS in what you can deduct. Cannot slap a sticker on the side of the car and claim 100% of the car. 23:58 – Christian: difference between lease versus buy. Kim: It depends. 25:07 – Leasing equipment such as a copier. 25:28 – One last tip from Kim: Office and home, only take a home deduction if you are not provided a space by your employer. 27:09 – Christian: one big room, can you still deduct. Kim: yes, because most of your work is still from home. However, if you spend most of your time at the office, you cannot deduct the home office. 27:53 – Cate: if they deduct home and office and sell your home, what happens? Kim: might have to recapture depreciation, but the IRS gave everyone a gift. They give you $5 per square foot for a deduction up to 300 square foot of space. 29:55 – Kim is leaving us but thank you for dropping your pearls of wisdom on us. 30:18 – How can you reach Kim? storenfinancial.com; kim@storenfinancial.com; 317-852-7000. 30:50 – Quote of the Episode: “Income, expenses, investing, and taxes are all part of the game of life. Learn how to play that game well and you will succeed financially.” -B. Live Intentionally! Do better for yourself by learning how to play the game better. 31:52 – To our listeners in Australia, we love you! 33:11 – The happiest puppy in the world!   SHOW LINKS Kim Storen – https://storenfinancial.com/meet-the-team-kim-storen/ Johnny Cash, “After Taxes” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RWEZ8ddexo Tommy Cash, Johnny’s Brother & Real Estate Agent – https://www.realtor.com/realestateagents/tommy-cash_hendersonville_tn_2943930 Eric Church tribute to Johnny Cash at the ACM Awards – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS2gRATocyY Mile IQ App – https://www.mileiq.com/ Indianapolis Colts – https://www.colts.com/ Churchie’s Blog – https://storenfinancial.com/cheers-from-churchie/ Kohl’s Cash – https://cs.kohls.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/95/~/how-do-i-earn-kohls-cash%3F Caterpillar – https://www.caterpillar.com/en.html Storen Financial – storenfinancial.com   BETWEEN THE LINES LINKS Email brian@brianclee.com cate@craftsmanrg.com   Web brianclee.com catelee.com realestatebetweenthelines.com   Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/realestatebetweenthelines/ https://www.facebook.com/Brian-C-Lee-111822417027919/?   YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcv4dHU39-b5_QVVCIhbcBA?

Welcome to the recruitment hackers podcast. A show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry brought to you by Talkpush, the leading recruitment automation platform.Max: Good morning and welcome back to the Recruitment Hackers podcast with me Max Armbruster, talking to some of the thought leaders and leading executives in the talent acquisition space, looking at how they're leveraging recruitment and talent acquisition to give them an edge for their business.And today I am honored and pleased to welcome on the show Kim Howell Chief People Officer at ERC. Welcome Kim. Thanks for joining. Kim: Thanks for having me, Max. Good to be here. Max: So, Kim, we're going to be talking about how you and ERC have adapted to the new normal and how your organization has responded to the challenges of the pandemic and the transition to work from home.Then we'll see where the conversation takes us. But, before we go into that, perhaps, if you would, give us a brief introduction on what you do and your background and on ERC.Kim: Absolutely. So, yeah, I'm currently with the ERC. I've been in the industry now for 25 years.However, I'm still 21, so don't do the math. Okay. I started years ago in a call center in Buffalo, New York. As an agent on the phones, collecting past due bills and, you know, throughout the years, I attribute a lot of my successes to the fact that I stayed very grounded in where I came from.I think that you can exceed much better in business if you did the work you're supporting now as an executive. So ERC, I've been with them now, gosh, since 2006. It's been a little bit of a blur because it's an excellent and forward moving company. We're a global BPO. We support our clients cradle to grave.Anything from phone work, chat, email,  tech support, you know what I mean, full global provider. We really strive on having the best experience, starting with our applicant experience through to our candidates' experience onto the employees' experience, which we all know deeply impacts the client's experience and our customer's experience.So that's one of the things that we've really held true to. Max: All right. Thank you. And I think collections is indeed a skill that will serve anybody for the long run. I certainly have been doing a lot of collections over the last few weeks. It doesn't matter, you know, where you are, whether it's Chief People Officer or CEO, I think you have to collect sometimes.So, well, that was my experience with the recent few months. We had a bit of a scare on who would be paying the bills on time. Tell us about your scary moments from the last four months at the company level. Kim: Yeah. So first and foremost, biggest scariest moment is how do we protect our staff, right.Clients absolutely being our top priority. And our staff being the top priority to one, keep them healthy and to support the business. And at the end of the day, we wanted to make sure that we could retain the most number of employees because it's a scary time for them, right? Their kids are being sent home from school.Things are getting shut down. You know, they're getting locked away at home to quarantine and not everyone was getting locked away in the best circumstances. So our biggest scary moment is how do we keep our staff to still have the best experience while keeping their jobs? We were very fortunate that we were prepared.You know, outside of your typical disaster recovery plans and what do you do if, and knowing that a lot of our sites are in Hurricane Valley, you know, we're pretty nimble. But that was kind of the scariest moment, will the staff be able to work from home? Will we be able to deploy them quick enough?And then how do we continue our business, in this new norm? We executed very quickly. And I think that's what we are most proud of. Although it might've felt chaotic. Although maybe in the background, there was some chaos. I don't know that we ever let it get out. Max: You, you were telling me earlier, you moved to a work from home in a 48 hour span.And I guess over multiple countries, which geographies do you operate in? Kim: So currently we are in the United States, the Dominican Republic, India and South Africa. Max: Okay. So that's about five or six different time zones. If my math is correct and two and a half languages, or, well, one English.But, what was some of the logistics that you had to deal with that transition? In late March. How did you figure out the move to work from home in such a short timeframe? Kim: Yeah, so domestically, it was a little bit easier. It was a matter of letting our employees know when you go home today unplug everything on your desktop monitor screen, computer units, your headphones, everything that you need, unplug it, put in your car and take it home. Right. And obviously we had inventoried those and done the right signup process. So it was a little bit easier there, weird feeling to watch all of your equipment walking out the door.But it was easier in the Dominican Republic, a little bit differently due to laws there, they couldn't necessarily walk out with stuff. So we had to deploy our transportation team to deliver the desktops, to all of our agents that had the ability to work at home. Right. And there's a lot that goes with that.We were having everyone do their, you know, internet speed tests to find out whether or not they could work from home. If they couldn't we were trying to cure my five devices to support the internet that they would need. And then obviously trying to get more equipment when the entire nation is going work at home at the exact same time you had, a lot of supply versus demand concerns.Can we get enough headsets to continue to support ongoing recruitment efforts? But yet in about 48 hours, we were back up and running very little downtime. Couple little hiccups along the way as we figured out tech solutions or internet concerns. But at the end of the day, you know, very little client impact, nearly no employee impact.There's a few clients that were not comfortable with the work at home or work from home solution. That's really the only place that we saw any employee impact, but anyone that was not working. Max: Those customers will probably be out of business soon enough. I don't wish that of course, but they may sing a different tune today than they did three months ago, of course.Kim: AgreedMax: And so you delivered 800 PCs to people's homes, you have to hire a few trucks to, to run that operation. I presume. Kim: Yeah, within DR, 800 total pieces of equipment, deployed within a matter of days, we used everyone's personal vehicle that could drive. Obviously we had a, there were some deadlines that the government had put into place that you have to have it all done by this day.So it was definitely a scattering of anyone that has a car, or two hands and can drive. Let's go. Because you need to pick up these equipments and you need to get them delivered in. It was a wonderful showing, a force by our employees there, folks that weren't part of the transportation team that became part of it, just to get it deployed.And I think that really speaks volumes, well, not just, you know, of ERC and our culture, but definitely of our folks, down there in the DR, just working together to make sure everyone can stay working. Max: I didn't realize you were present in South Africa and India as well. We also have clients in these geographies at Talkpush. I'm a big traveler. I noticed that these waves did come at a different time and what people don't talk about is the universal kind of nature of this crisis. Almost every country reacted the same way. And every group reacted the same way. We keep talking about our differences, but really those kind of universal responses.One thing that I keep hearing back though, is we didn't think that emerging markets were able to work from home. We didn't think that we had the right internet speed, but these were, you know, these were overcome a little bit easier than people had thought that it would be. Does that reflect your experience?Kim: It does. And for the most part, there were a few folks that we had to furlough because they did not have the internet support that they needed or, and we couldn't, for whatever reason, get them a device or even with the device it wouldn't work and what was most prevalent is their home environment didn't support a work at home situation, right. Five kids, kids screaming and yelling all day, multiple, dogs barking, whatever the case may be. And also, especially when you look at some of our folks in the DR it's kind of a different environment, right? You have multigenerational families. So it's not where you can lock yourself away in a room and get work done. So we had to make sure that they had the opportunity to work from home. Max: Yeah. The sad part is these are the families that probably need the job the most. If you need the income and you need to have the structure in your life where you can get away from that noise. Yeah. All the more, traumatic this crisis would have been.It goes back to your earlier point that, you know, people need a job sometimes even more than they need the income. They just need that structure. Kim: Yeah. And you know, that's one of the things that did work out well for us, both domestically and in our international sites. For the clients that could not do work at home because of whatever security restrictions that they had.We were able to classify some of our staff as essential workers. So we were very selective in who was going to be an essential worker. If you can work at home, work from home. If you can't we're going to find a way to get you right size or rehomed to the projects that's essential so that we can keep you employed or keep you in a safe harbor or whatever the case may be.So there was some shuffling of roles and responsibilities based upon people's abilities. Max: The talent pool that you're picking from now is going to be vastly expanded with your work at home program. And you were telling me before our call that, you've seen a significant increase the applicants from pre-crisis to today's, right now we're at the end of July, almost August. Can you give us the numbers in terms of how much of an increase have you seen over this period? Kim: Yeah, actually, absolutely I can. And we've seen a few shifts over this new norm or the COVID period. So historically when we were hiring for, there are brick and mortar sites, we saw anywhere from 400 to 600 applicants per month, right.Pending on recruitment needs. At the time, once we went to work at home, that volume increased to 3,500 a month. That was fairly significant. And we didn't have the time to double our staff or more appropriately up it by 10 more people to keep up with that volume because it takes time to train a recruiter.It takes time to get them up to speed. Then we really had to find ways to deal with that increase in volume without the candidates experience being monopolized. And that's one of the things that we really. We had to get creative with technology and we had to get creative processes, right? Because the processes of the past to have one on one interviews and one-on-one screens, none of that works unless you want to give yourself three months to reach back to a candidate.And that's a horrible experience, right? Especially in today's environment, when everyone needs that immediate gratification, you need to respond to them within 24 hours or you've lost them. That's no longer a warm lead for our recruiting staff. And, you know, not only that, but the shift in the demographics of people that were applying was also different.So historically work at home, you see about 70% part-time utilization, meaning people looking for part time work, 30% looking for full time. In the  COVID environment so many full time workers were displaced that that completely reversed, where we saw 70% seeking full time employment and only 30 seeking part time.So it changes scheduling. It changes again, the process flow when we recruit fundamentally changed and, and the how .Max: it sounds like it's a better talent pool to choose from, which makes sense. When you go from 3.5% unemployment to whatever it is today, maybe 10 times that yeah. Kim: You know, max, it's funny, it's not necessarily a better candidate. And that's one of the things that has one of the places where we get to change our questioning. And our processes, because if you think about it, historically, the only people that were applying for work from home are folks that had a need to work from home, not a want, a need, right? Because they're differently abled. They are working parents, they are single parents, whatever the case may be. Now it's different. So you have people that have never worked from home and don't understand the discipline it takes to work from home  applying for a job that will have you locked at home all the time. And that's, it's really in the recruitment process.We'd never, before had to explain that because the only people applying for work at home are folks that did it in the past. Now we're having to spend time of our recruitment process explaining what to expect working from home. Because it's easy to get distracted by the load of laundry that needs to get changed out or a TV show that's on during the day that you don't typically get to watch or the doorbell ringing.They're really making sure that we're explaining the expectations of working from home before we even get into whether or not you're a good fit for us. Max: Do you have a dress code for people to work from home? Kim: No, we really don't.Max: The benefits of the new normal Kim: It is, and that's one of the things that, and it was weird that you say that because when we initially moved to work from home, our brick and mortar folks, we saw an immediate uptick in productivity because now they're sleeping a little bit longer because they don't have Jacksonville traffic commute time.So they're getting that extra couple of minutes. It has them more refreshed. They can go get their cup of coffee very quickly versus having to wait for break time and then wait in line to get to the Keurig machine. There's all of these conveniences of home, it was new and fresh and exciting.Everybody was uber productive. Then the challenges became kind of post recruitment. Post-deployment post all of these things. Now it has shifted to engagement because it's very easy to lose your staff at home. Because you don't see them. You don't know when they're having a bad day, cause you can't look at them.So that's really where Zoom and the different technologies that we use for engagement became very necessary just to know if they're having a bad day. Max: Yeah, we do a few of these things ourselves internally. We have a coffee break or a water cooler chat where we're randomly paired with somebody in the company to do a random chat and related things help and create connectivity.Of course, the zoom calls, are a factor, but right now I'm trying to a company, 60 people. Um, I kept not ask all to come together, right. So I have to commit method of thinking.training, classroom, tacticaltraining or onboarding. Kim: Yep. So through training and onboarding, we have a couple different things that we do, um, onboarding right now we do in a group setting and we do a couple sessions throughout the day because we do hire route multiple time zones. So everyone can't always join at the same time. So we'll set up multiple times throughout the day, both with am and PM offerings, but it is a total group session.And what we've learned with that, even in the past,you know, post recruitment or onboarding has always been in a classroom setting. Let's all get together, but now you have even more opportunities to compound factor that in. Classrooms of the past: 20 people. And our classrooms of today are still not much more than that.But you can onboard 50 at one time, as you can fit more people into a classroom, a virtual classroom. You still want to break out for the actual training, because obviously you want to make sure that they're getting the attention that they need, and that you can keep up with the questions that are happening via polling or chat.But from an onboarding experience, you can onboard multiple people at one time. So it really makes the team more efficient because they're not spending as much time on those isolated touch points. Max: You're using that for the, uh, for the interviewing process as well. These group sessions?Kim: Ee are. And that was a very big shift that we had to make.Like I mentioned earlier, application flow went from 400 to 600 to 3,500. It was impossible for our process of the past to keep up with that. Our former process was everybody got a one on one phone interview. And if you were advanced, then you sat down for a face to face interview with the hiring manager.That's not realistic for 3,500 people. And again, there's no brick and mortar to bring them into you for that face to face. So one of the process changes that we did was that first initial phone interview, we'll invite anywhere from 10 to 15 people into that interview. And we'll have one group interview.And this is just the preliminary interview. If you think about recruitment,  it's a joint sales effort as a candidate you need to sell me on why I should hire you. But as an employer, I also need to sell you on why you should want to work for us. So in this setting, I'm able to do that sales pitch one time versus 15 isolated times.And if you think about a normal course of an interview, that phone interview is usually about 15 minutes long, sometimes a little bit longer for supervisory or executive low level roles. Obviously they're significantly longer, but think about 15 minutes over 20 candidates. Versus having those 20 candidates come to one 15 minute interaction so that I can give my sales pitch once, but more importantly, engagement of that team or excuse me of those candidates is so much better because typically these are awkward, right? They don't necessarily want to ask a question because what if it exposes me as having a weakness? Now it's a conversation. Max: Your story made me kind of flashback to when I was a job seeker, myself and I was invited for a group interview.I flew from London to Paris for that interview, I think, or from somewhere to somewhere. And, I put on a suit, I took the train, I went to the office and then I was accepted, you know, welcomed into a conference room with 10 others and I had to do whole thing. And all of this was just like a buildup of tension and anxiety.As I came to present myself, I was very, are you nervous. But if I have to talk about who I am for a couple of minutes, while I'm looking at my computer in the comfort of my home, I'm sure I can knock it out of the park, even 20 year old version of me, you know? Right. So, one of the tricks of recruitment is putting the candidate at ease so you can see really who they are, then you're working from a better place, actually, if you're letting that happen from their home. Kim: Yeah. And I think that putting them at ease is so important, especially in today's environment. It's a great point that you make Max, because if you look at where we are today and in the environment, So many people need a job and they're going to therefore tell you what they think you want to hear to get that job.So it's not just a recruitment to put candidates in the seats of our training class, but recruitment needs to put the right candidates in the seats, in our training classes, ones that are going to have stickiness, and that are going to stick with us for a long period of time. Turnover is expensive.Recruiting is expensive. So the less people you have to introduce into the organization, the better. So you really need that stickiness. Hmm, but then what the recruiters are really tasked with doing now is candidates need to be at ease. It's less about the skills they bring to the table, and it's more about their ability to be taught the skills we need them to have.And that's really what we've changed in our philosophy, because it's not, we want to experience or you have to have X number of years in the industry. It's are you teachable? Because teachable individuals have more loyalty and have more stickiness. If I've taught you a scale. If I've taught you how to be successful.And then more importantly, I've made you successful within the company, based upon the trainings. You're more apt to stick with us versus coming to me with 10 years experience and not necessarily liking the environment and know you can go someplace else. So we like to really have a good mix of tenured people with experience, and then just the teachable individuals go a long way.Max: I don't know where you're going to get the best retention from, from the old timers or from the freshers. Because of courseboth come with a risk, um, going from 400 or 600, hires per month to, or candidates per month to 3,500, almost 10 X in volume. Um, You've been able to perhaps a bit to create a few more filters and what are some of the filters that we can use, that recruiters can use to determine if candidates are teachable or, or to make sure you hire people who are adapted to work at home?Kim: Some of that is done even before we ever talked to them. And that's really where I think employers can leverage whether it's their ATS or just standard processes to have people self select their course, meaning what path are they going to take?Beause we have various different openings, whether it's collections, chat, email, customer service, retention efforts, whatever the case may be. So you want to go through some questioning within the application process. That's going to have them select the right course. That's best for them. Are you looking for a PM shift?Okay. Well, that's going to put you into a different pool than if you're open and can work whenever. So some of the questions that we do even before we talk to them, we have them do their internet speed tests. You know, you have to have proof of a workspace, show us your workspace, submit those pictures to us.All that's done via our ATS portal. So that when we go to sit down with the candidates, we've already done all the checklist work, right. We already know that they pass the sniff test so to speak on a tech solution and an environmental solution. Now we need the teachables. And in that group setting, you'll be very surprised on how much you get from that.Because one of the requirements of the interview is you have to be on camera, right? We need to see you. We need to know the reaction. So as people are asking questions, you can see the folks that have a ton of experience. They're either open to our answer or they're like, oh, I know the answer. Well, I know the answer means, you know, the answer of your past employer.Not that you're going to be open to how we do it at ERC. So we do a lot of profiling in those interviews in just how receptive are you to people's questions, to our feedback, to our responses, and to our environment. So we like to read those facial expressions and you know, one of the problems with zoom is now I talk to my hands a lot.It's the New Yorker in me. I can't help it. I always tell people to keep a distance. So I don't accidentally get to you. But some things you lose in zoom. So we always tell people, you know, we give them a zoom etiquette course before we do the interview. Sit back from your computer, don't have it right up on your face.You know, we want it exactly, but we want it to be a good experience for everybody. We don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable. And that was one of the things and something I definitely recommend for employers to do for your recruiters. Don't assume everyone understands technology. As savvy is I'd like to pretend that I am, I was very new to zoom when we went into COVID. I was very used to, hey, meet me in the conference room. So I had to really educate myself on how to do a good zoom experience for my staff. And that's one of the things that we really had to sit down with the recruiters to say, how do you make it a good zoom experience for your candidates?And, you know, you were talking earlier about some of the engagement activities. And I think so many people look at recruitment as being over once the job starts. And it's not, in my opinion, it's just starting. Our best applicant source are our staff. Refer is the key referrals, stickiness. They know what they're walking into, so you don't have that, or it's not what I expected turnover rate at play for referrals.And it always tell everybody recruitment is a continuous effort. The employee that's been with the company for 20 years should be your best recruiter. They should be out there, you know, handing out cards. Here's, you know, we're hiring whatever the case may be. And we do a ton of engagement efforts.We did a lip sync challenge the other day on zoom. And we brought everybody in and just did some lipsync battles. We've played charades via zoom. We've done impersonations. You have to guess the person there's so many different things that we've been able to do on zoom. And I know that sounds weird.It's used as a recruitment tool, but think about it. How many people get to say, like, I actually had fun at work today and yes, it's a grind and we work hard and it's exhausting. But at the end of the day, I played charades with an executive. That was pretty cool. And I don't know many companies that do that.So you've got to continue to invest in your business to make sure that recruitment stays exciting. Max: That is very creative. And my idea of creativity was we're going to send them sandwiches and beers at home, which probably works too. But this is good stuff. I am not looking forward to it, but I have a feeling that my Head of HR will organize some charades, unfortunately, all that.Kim: It is super fun. Max: Yeah. I can do that. Maybe with a beer ,if I can combine the two. Kim: Yeah. That's what I was going to say. Send yourself, the sandwich and a beer and you're good. Max: All right. Well, you've given a lot of great ideas to our thinkers. To close it out and thinking about that continuous improvement you were talking about I really think that, we're really at the beginning of this transition.Where do you see the next level of automation? What are some of the stuff that your recruiters are still working on that you feel is a little too time consuming and you wish you could take off their desk how are you I'm imagining the next few months or a few years of innovation?Kim: The biggest thing that I see right now is finding a way to capture both the voice component of recruiting and the text or context component. Right? So there's a ton of vendors out there that do a lot with whether it's profiling the video assessment or taking speech and keywords and all of these other things.And we have our Mars application, which is our homegrown application that we use for text analytics or excuse me, speech analytics and the speech analytics are super important in recruiting by listening to the conversation and giving feedback or training opportunities to our recruiters. But more importantly, and what we want to tie together as we continue to evolve, our tech solutions is taking all the texts that happens within the application process, right? The resume.Yeah. If it's required, if not just what they fill in on the app and looking at our success stories internally and tying the two together, you know, putting in that, if this, then that logic, within the entire recruitment process, because what we see when we manually look at it, which is a super time consuming and archaic process is, Hey, this person had all these work gaps.They were not successful. Okay. Well, how do you drop those work gaps or put them into a different bin for a different type of work treatment to find out why are those work gaps? Was it contract work? You know, there's other things where we find a great success rate in our customer service arm of folks that come from Chick-Filet.Everyone that I strictly as a huge customer service backing and, and really invested a ton of time in that. And I know it's weird. Right. Okay. So someone who served fast food is successful at a BPO. Absolutely. Because again, BPO is customer service. Max: Yeah. That doesn't shock me. I'm still trying to think how you can automate this, you know, when you do that group video group interview that you do, and you say you're, you're reading, people's faces to see, see how people react to what. I think the HireVues of the world do analytics around video, but I don't think anybody, maybe the Chinese government has figured out a way to analyze 12 faces set simultaneously and contextually.But that is some next gen stuff should keep us busy for the next appointment.Kim: At least. Right. And, and that's really where, you know, one of our biggest things is finding the right partner. That's trying to figure it out also, and let's build it together. Right. That's because I don't think anyone's figured that out yet.And I know it's coming and my goodness technology is advancing quicker than we can get through R and D with different vendors. So that's really where it's okay. Who's got the bandwidth, the savviness and the patience to deal with us in a partnership to build that. Because it's coming. And I look at the amount of time that my recruiters, I don't want to say waste because it's valuable, but right now, so much of recruitment is processing, not recruiting.Yeah. And if you could find a way to automate those manual touch points, um, that are necessary to decide, do they get an interview or not? Using, you know, a data analytic tool on the resume using that data analytic tool on the conversation, now they can recruit. Max: I cringe at the thought that people are going to take the current crisis as an opportunity to revert back to bad behaviors and treat, you know, stop treating candidates nicely.I get the feeling that is not going to happen at ERC. And, I really want to thank you, Kim, for your inspiring words and sharing the story of the last few months with us. I wish you and  ERC all the best.Kim: Thank you so much. Thanks for your time. Max: Thanks Kim. Talk soon. Max: I had a lot of fun talking with Kim Howell, and you can see from her determination and attitude, how she managed to drive her career from working into collections all the way to Chief People Officer at ERC. That kind of leadership where an opportunity comes in the shape of a crisis to transform and move things around and where you have to start changing hats, putting on your logistics hats in order to facilitate hundreds of people staying at work and being able to continue, have structure in  their lives through this pandemic. So great chat Kim. I hope you stay on for more Recruitment Hackers Podcast.Please follow us and share with your friends so we can get the word out on our new podcast. 

We are continuing our Enneagram Series with Beth McCord talking about How to Have A Thriving Relationship with an Enneagram 9. For the next several weeks Beth will be breaking down some real, practical tips for being married to each Enneagram number.    If you are married to a 9 this is YOUR episode. But even if you aren’t married to a 9, we know you will find this episode helpful in learning more about your 9 friends. Part of loving people is knowing people. So use this series as a tool to know your people better, understand them deeper, and love them better.    Beth McCord founded ‘Your Enneagram Coach’ and has been an Enneagram speaker, coach and teacher for over 17 years. She is seriously the best of the best so we are so blessed to have her share her time and expertise with us.    Having been trained by the best Enneagram experts and pouring hundreds of hours into advanced certifications, Beth is leading the industry in simplifying the deep truths of the Enneagram from a Biblical perspective. Beth does one-on-one coaching, in-person events and workshops and online courses. She also offers training and support for those interested in becoming an Enneagram coach. So make sure you give her a follow on Instagram @yourennegramcoach and check out her website yourennegramcoach.com for more great info.    We pray you enjoy learning more about 9s in this episode!  Subscribe to Podcast Email to make sure you never miss an episode and get noteworthy quotes, resources, and more delivered straight to your inbox!    *Music for this podcast is created by Noah Copeland. Check him out here!    NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “Type 9s are the peacemakers: easy going, non-judgemental, they love harmony with others.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s are all able to see the viewpoints from all other personality types.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s avoid conflict and tension at all cost.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s core fear is being in any kind of conflict, tension or discord.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s desire to have inner stability and peace of mind.” - Beth McCord “Unhealthy Type 9s merge their needs, desires and wants with those around. They lose themselves just to go with the flow.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s just want everyone to be happy.” - Beth McCord “Because Type 9s can understand things from different perspectives they make excellent mediators.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s long to hear, ‘Your presence matters.’” - Beth McCord “Type 9s are excellent listeners.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s can struggle with knowing how to talk about their needs and wants in a direct way.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s have a hard time saying no because they’re afraid of displeasing people.” - Beth McCord “If you’re married to a Type 9, it’s important to let your spouse know that it’s ok to say no.” - Dr. Kim “It’s very painful for a Type 9 to be overlooked.” - Beth McCord “It’s important for a Type 9 to know how to set healthy boundaries with others so that they’re not taken advantage of.” - Beth McCord “Approach conflict with a Type 9 with gentleness, responsiveness, and patience. It may take them some time to figure out how they really feel about something.” - Beth McCord “Let your Type 9 know the good things that you see in them because they can’t see it in themselves.” - Beth McCord “Treating a Type 9 like they treat you will go a long way.” - Dr. Kim “Ask a Type 9 why they did what they did can help you understand them and can help them verbalize their motivations.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s are extremely stubborn, when they don’t want to do something, it ain’t happening.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s are extremely big hearted and they have a place in their heart for everyone.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s want everyone to be accepted and loved for who they are.” - Beth McCord   SPONSORS   Thank you to Honoring Intimates for sponsoring this podcast episode! Honoring Intimates is a safe place for believers to learn about marital sex and shop for the highest quality lubricant, lotions, and lingerie items at reasonable prices. There are no inappropriate images on the site and the company uses mannequins to display their lingerie. Use the code “AWESOMEMARRIAGE” to receive 20% off your entire order.    RESOURCES Find everything you need at becomingus.com! Including the course for YOUR marriage’s Enneagram combination. Beth & Jeff have a ‘Becoming Us Course’ for each couple type combination. That is 45 courses customized for each couple type combination. They go deeper into the “dance” (relational dynamics) and give you practical resources and insights to help transform your marriage.  Buy ‘Becoming Us’ today!  Not sure what your Enneagram Type is? You can take the free assessment here! Also be sure to take the FREE MARRIAGE ASSESSMENT here.  Learn more about each type with this FREE SUMMARY!  Check out more great insights by Beth on her blog.  Discover your Enneagram number with the Discovering You course. Already know your Enneagram Type? Then it’s time to take a deeper dive with the Explore You course.  You can get some one-on-one coaching with Your Enneagram Coach here.  Want to talk about sex?! Take our Love Making Survey to open up the way for you and your spouse to work towards better sex and intimacy in marriage! This month’s resource is our Love Making Survey and it is designed to help you have a safe, genuine conversation about your sex life with your spouse. This survey is a nonthreatening way to evaluate your sex together. The questions are designed to get you thinking about all aspects of your love making and to shed light on ways your sex could be more satisfying. Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim’s One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!   

We are continuing our Enneagram Series with Beth McCord talking about How to Have A Thriving Relationship with an Enneagram 9. For the next several weeks Beth will be breaking down some real, practical tips for being married to each Enneagram number.    If you are married to a 9 this is YOUR episode. But even if you aren't married to a 9, we know you will find this episode helpful in learning more about your 9 friends. Part of loving people is knowing people. So use this series as a tool to know your people better, understand them deeper, and love them better.    Beth McCord founded ‘Your Enneagram Coach' and has been an Enneagram speaker, coach and teacher for over 17 years. She is seriously the best of the best so we are so blessed to have her share her time and expertise with us.    Having been trained by the best Enneagram experts and pouring hundreds of hours into advanced certifications, Beth is leading the industry in simplifying the deep truths of the Enneagram from a Biblical perspective. Beth does one-on-one coaching, in-person events and workshops and online courses. She also offers training and support for those interested in becoming an Enneagram coach. So make sure you give her a follow on Instagram @yourennegramcoach and check out her website yourennegramcoach.com for more great info.    We pray you enjoy learning more about 9s in this episode!  Subscribe to Podcast Email to make sure you never miss an episode and get noteworthy quotes, resources, and more delivered straight to your inbox!    *Music for this podcast is created by Noah Copeland. Check him out here!    NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “Type 9s are the peacemakers: easy going, non-judgemental, they love harmony with others.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s are all able to see the viewpoints from all other personality types.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s avoid conflict and tension at all cost.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s core fear is being in any kind of conflict, tension or discord.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s desire to have inner stability and peace of mind.” - Beth McCord “Unhealthy Type 9s merge their needs, desires and wants with those around. They lose themselves just to go with the flow.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s just want everyone to be happy.” - Beth McCord “Because Type 9s can understand things from different perspectives they make excellent mediators.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s long to hear, ‘Your presence matters.'” - Beth McCord “Type 9s are excellent listeners.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s can struggle with knowing how to talk about their needs and wants in a direct way.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s have a hard time saying no because they're afraid of displeasing people.” - Beth McCord “If you're married to a Type 9, it's important to let your spouse know that it's ok to say no.” - Dr. Kim “It's very painful for a Type 9 to be overlooked.” - Beth McCord “It's important for a Type 9 to know how to set healthy boundaries with others so that they're not taken advantage of.” - Beth McCord “Approach conflict with a Type 9 with gentleness, responsiveness, and patience. It may take them some time to figure out how they really feel about something.” - Beth McCord “Let your Type 9 know the good things that you see in them because they can't see it in themselves.” - Beth McCord “Treating a Type 9 like they treat you will go a long way.” - Dr. Kim “Ask a Type 9 why they did what they did can help you understand them and can help them verbalize their motivations.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s are extremely stubborn, when they don't want to do something, it ain't happening.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s are extremely big hearted and they have a place in their heart for everyone.” - Beth McCord “Type 9s want everyone to be accepted and loved for who they are.” - Beth McCord   SPONSORS   Thank you to Honoring Intimates for sponsoring this podcast episode! Honoring Intimates is a safe place for believers to learn about marital sex and shop for the highest quality lubricant, lotions, and lingerie items at reasonable prices. There are no inappropriate images on the site and the company uses mannequins to display their lingerie. Use the code “AWESOMEMARRIAGE” to receive 20% off your entire order.    RESOURCES Find everything you need at becomingus.com! Including the course for YOUR marriage's Enneagram combination. Beth & Jeff have a ‘Becoming Us Course' for each couple type combination. That is 45 courses customized for each couple type combination. They go deeper into the “dance” (relational dynamics) and give you practical resources and insights to help transform your marriage.  Buy ‘Becoming Us' today!  Not sure what your Enneagram Type is? You can take the free assessment here! Also be sure to take the FREE MARRIAGE ASSESSMENT here.  Learn more about each type with this FREE SUMMARY!  Check out more great insights by Beth on her blog.  Discover your Enneagram number with the Discovering You course. Already know your Enneagram Type? Then it's time to take a deeper dive with the Explore You course.  You can get some one-on-one coaching with Your Enneagram Coach here.  Want to talk about sex?! Take our Love Making Survey to open up the way for you and your spouse to work towards better sex and intimacy in marriage! This month's resource is our Love Making Survey and it is designed to help you have a safe, genuine conversation about your sex life with your spouse. This survey is a nonthreatening way to evaluate your sex together. The questions are designed to get you thinking about all aspects of your love making and to shed light on ways your sex could be more satisfying. Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim's One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!   

Can we implement boundaries with our spouse? Is it loving? Is it Christ-centered?  Boundaries in marriage may seem counterintuitive to some, but we believe it should be normal and natural in a marriage.  In this episode, Dr. Kim and Christina share about boundaries with your spouse: why you need them, examples of what they might be, and how to implement them. If you have never thought about boundaries with your spouse, we hope this conversation is helpful to you and that it provides you with some great talking points that you and your spouse can explore as you work to have a healthier, happier, holier marriage.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “You can help your spouse see that they might need to set a boundary with someone by asking them questions.” - Dr. Kim “You can encourage your spouse to learn about boundaries but also be willing to walk with them through what that will look like.” - Christina “Always offer your thoughts on your spouse’s situation as a suggestion, not as a solution to their problem.” - Dr. Kim “You might need to set a boundary with someone if you’re taking on their consequences.” - Christina “If you’ve never set boundaries before start setting them in safe places first.” - Christina “Remember that if someone doesn’t respond to the boundaries that you set in a healthy way, you can only control yourself, you can’t control how they will react.” - Dr. Kim “It sounds silly but role playing setting boundaries with your spouse can be really helpful for them to prepare for those hard conversations.” - Christina “Let your spouse know that you are not going to stop loving them if they set a healthy boundary with you.” - Christina   SPONSORS Thank you to Honoring Intimates for sponsoring this podcast episode! Honoring Intimates is a safe place for believers to learn about marital sex and shop for the highest quality lubricant, lotions, and lingerie items at reasonable prices. There are no inappropriate images on the site and the company uses mannequins to display their lingerie. Use the code “AWESOMEMARRIAGE” to receive 20% off your entire order.  RESOURCES As we approach the holidays, it’s so important to make time for your spouse. Plan to spend some quality time with your sweetie by grabbing our FALLing For You Date Design here! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim’s One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here! 

Can we implement boundaries with our spouse? Is it loving? Is it Christ-centered?  Boundaries in marriage may seem counterintuitive to some, but we believe it should be normal and natural in a marriage.  In this episode, Dr. Kim and Christina share about boundaries with your spouse: why you need them, examples of what they might be, and how to implement them. If you have never thought about boundaries with your spouse, we hope this conversation is helpful to you and that it provides you with some great talking points that you and your spouse can explore as you work to have a healthier, happier, holier marriage.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “You can help your spouse see that they might need to set a boundary with someone by asking them questions.” - Dr. Kim “You can encourage your spouse to learn about boundaries but also be willing to walk with them through what that will look like.” - Christina “Always offer your thoughts on your spouse's situation as a suggestion, not as a solution to their problem.” - Dr. Kim “You might need to set a boundary with someone if you're taking on their consequences.” - Christina “If you've never set boundaries before start setting them in safe places first.” - Christina “Remember that if someone doesn't respond to the boundaries that you set in a healthy way, you can only control yourself, you can't control how they will react.” - Dr. Kim “It sounds silly but role playing setting boundaries with your spouse can be really helpful for them to prepare for those hard conversations.” - Christina “Let your spouse know that you are not going to stop loving them if they set a healthy boundary with you.” - Christina   SPONSORS Thank you to Honoring Intimates for sponsoring this podcast episode! Honoring Intimates is a safe place for believers to learn about marital sex and shop for the highest quality lubricant, lotions, and lingerie items at reasonable prices. There are no inappropriate images on the site and the company uses mannequins to display their lingerie. Use the code “AWESOMEMARRIAGE” to receive 20% off your entire order.  RESOURCES As we approach the holidays, it's so important to make time for your spouse. Plan to spend some quality time with your sweetie by grabbing our FALLing For You Date Design here! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim's One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here! 

Can we implement boundaries with our spouse? Is it loving? Is it Christ-centered?    Boundaries in marriage may seem counterintuitive to some, but we believe it should be normal and natural in a marriage.    In this episode, Dr. Kim and Christina share about boundaries with your spouse: why you need them, examples of what they might be, and how to implement them. If you have never thought about boundaries with your spouse, we hope this conversation is helpful to you and that it provides you with some great talking points that you and your spouse can explore as you work to have a healthier, happier, holier marriage.    NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “Boundaries with your spouse can actually draw you closer together.” - Dr. Kim “Having boundaries in your marriage isn't meant to be a punishment, it's meant to be freeing for you and your spouse.” - Christina “You can't have true intimacy without boundaries.” - Christina “I tell singles that I counsel, you have to show the person you're dating the real you at some point during the dating process.” - Dr. Kim “It's unloving and unwise to not set boundaries where they need to be.” - Christina “To rescue people from the natural consequences of their behavior is to render them powerless.” - Dr. Henry Cloud & John Townsend (from Boundaries book) “It's so important to talk about boundaries in your sexual relationship.” - Dr. Kim “Boundaries helps you understand your marriage relationship better.” - Dr. Kim “Your spouse's comfortability should matter to you more than what you want for yourself.” - Christina “Boundaries are about controlling the only person that you can control: yourself.” - Christina “Don't set boundaries to manipulate or control your spouse.”  - Dr. Kim “If you're in an unhealthy relationship, be prepared for setting boundaries to cause a lot of conflict.” - Dr. Kim “A boundary without consequences isn't a boundary at all.” - Christina   SPONSORS Thank you to Honoring Intimates for sponsoring this podcast episode! Honoring Intimates is a safe place for believers to learn about marital sex and shop for the highest quality lubricant, lotions, and lingerie items at reasonable prices. There are no inappropriate images on the site and the company uses mannequins to display their lingerie. Use the code “AWESOMEMARRIAGE” to receive 20% off your entire order.  RESOURCES As we approach the holidays, it's so important to make time for your spouse. Plan to spend some quality time with your sweetie by grabbing our FALLing For You Date Design here! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim's One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here! 

Can we implement boundaries with our spouse? Is it loving? Is it Christ-centered?    Boundaries in marriage may seem counterintuitive to some, but we believe it should be normal and natural in a marriage.    In this episode, Dr. Kim and Christina share about boundaries with your spouse: why you need them, examples of what they might be, and how to implement them. If you have never thought about boundaries with your spouse, we hope this conversation is helpful to you and that it provides you with some great talking points that you and your spouse can explore as you work to have a healthier, happier, holier marriage.    NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “Boundaries with your spouse can actually draw you closer together.” - Dr. Kim “Having boundaries in your marriage isn’t meant to be a punishment, it’s meant to be freeing for you and your spouse.” - Christina “You can’t have true intimacy without boundaries.” - Christina “I tell singles that I counsel, you have to show the person you’re dating the real you at some point during the dating process.” - Dr. Kim “It’s unloving and unwise to not set boundaries where they need to be.” - Christina “To rescue people from the natural consequences of their behavior is to render them powerless.” - Dr. Henry Cloud & John Townsend (from Boundaries book) “It’s so important to talk about boundaries in your sexual relationship.” - Dr. Kim “Boundaries helps you understand your marriage relationship better.” - Dr. Kim “Your spouse’s comfortability should matter to you more than what you want for yourself.” - Christina “Boundaries are about controlling the only person that you can control: yourself.” - Christina “Don’t set boundaries to manipulate or control your spouse.”  - Dr. Kim “If you’re in an unhealthy relationship, be prepared for setting boundaries to cause a lot of conflict.” - Dr. Kim “A boundary without consequences isn’t a boundary at all.” - Christina   SPONSORS Thank you to Honoring Intimates for sponsoring this podcast episode! Honoring Intimates is a safe place for believers to learn about marital sex and shop for the highest quality lubricant, lotions, and lingerie items at reasonable prices. There are no inappropriate images on the site and the company uses mannequins to display their lingerie. Use the code “AWESOMEMARRIAGE” to receive 20% off your entire order.  RESOURCES As we approach the holidays, it’s so important to make time for your spouse. Plan to spend some quality time with your sweetie by grabbing our FALLing For You Date Design here! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim’s One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here! 

Everyone has the same amount of time - 24 hours in a day. But so many of us struggle to manage this time well. Some of us say yes to way too many things and then that leaves us burnt out and miserable. Others of us don't use our time wisely enough and don't steward their time well to get done what they need to get done.  In the fast paced, hustle glorified, culture that we live in where everyone has access to you all the time it can be really hard to set limits on our time. But if we don't plan well, our time will just pass us by. But if we do plan well and set up healthy boundaries, we can have healthier relationships, a better marriage, and get off the "hustle til you're burnt out" game that way too many of us are playing.  In this episode, Dr. Kim and Christina share about the importance of setting up time boundaries and how to implement them.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “You have to be an example for your kids of what it looks like to prioritize your spouse.” - Dr. Kim “You have to manage your time to plan for the future.” - Christina “Make sure your schedule reflects your priorities.” - Dr. Kim “Make a habit of doing the things that are important to you.” - Dr. Kim “When we feel like we're constantly busy we often don't take the time to do things that are going to have long-term benefits on our marriage.” - Dr. Kim “There's no shortcut to having time with your spouse; you have to make quality time with them happen.” - Dr. Kim “We had to learn to say no, even to good things, if they would get in the way of us spending quality time together and investing in our marriage.” - Dr. Kim “Decide as a couple where you want you want to prioritize your time and then build the rest of the things you do in life around that.” - Dr. Kim “It's a red flag that you're not doing a good job of prioritizing your marriage if you haven't talked to your wife in so long that you forgot what her name is.” - Dr. Kim “Take the time to address red flags in your marriage as soon as you see them; it will save you so much time in the long run.” - Dr. Kim SPONSORS Thank you to Plant Package for sponsoring this podcast episode! With Plant Package, the prep work of gardening is done for you. Plant Package is delivered straight to your door with easy instructions on how to plant your fun new plant that even someone with a black thumb could execute! Plant Package selects durable seasonal plants, an appropriate and stylish container, sends just the right amount of soil and plant food, and includes instructions for assembly and plant care. The Plants can thrive indoors or outdoors – the choice is yours! Use the code “awesome” to receive a FREE Starter Kit with your order. Starter kits include gardening gloves, a gardening shovel, and farm hand's soap. Simply select “ADD STARTER KIT” and enter the code AWESOME on the payment checkout page.  RESOURCES Need help building unity in your marriage? Snag our brand new resource Diary of An Awesome Marriage: The Couple's Unity Building Journal today! This resource is a 23 page PDF, with 9 sections on common areas that marriages. Each section has questions for you to reflect on, pray about, answer, and then discuss with your spouse. Get closer by getting more unified on the things that matter! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim's One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!  Dr. Kim's new book, 14 Keys to Lasting Love, came out earlier this year. If you haven't ordered your copy yet, what are you waiting for? Order here now.   

Everyone has the same amount of time - 24 hours in a day. But so many of us struggle to manage this time well. Some of us say yes to way too many things and then that leaves us burnt out and miserable. Others of us don’t use our time wisely enough and don’t steward their time well to get done what they need to get done.  In the fast paced, hustle glorified, culture that we live in where everyone has access to you all the time it can be really hard to set limits on our time. But if we don’t plan well, our time will just pass us by. But if we do plan well and set up healthy boundaries, we can have healthier relationships, a better marriage, and get off the "hustle til you’re burnt out" game that way too many of us are playing.  In this episode, Dr. Kim and Christina share about the importance of setting up time boundaries and how to implement them.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “You have to be an example for your kids of what it looks like to prioritize your spouse.” - Dr. Kim “You have to manage your time to plan for the future.” - Christina “Make sure your schedule reflects your priorities.” - Dr. Kim “Make a habit of doing the things that are important to you.” - Dr. Kim “When we feel like we’re constantly busy we often don’t take the time to do things that are going to have long-term benefits on our marriage.” - Dr. Kim “There’s no shortcut to having time with your spouse; you have to make quality time with them happen.” - Dr. Kim “We had to learn to say no, even to good things, if they would get in the way of us spending quality time together and investing in our marriage.” - Dr. Kim “Decide as a couple where you want you want to prioritize your time and then build the rest of the things you do in life around that.” - Dr. Kim “It’s a red flag that you’re not doing a good job of prioritizing your marriage if you haven’t talked to your wife in so long that you forgot what her name is.” - Dr. Kim “Take the time to address red flags in your marriage as soon as you see them; it will save you so much time in the long run.” - Dr. Kim SPONSORS Thank you to Plant Package for sponsoring this podcast episode! With Plant Package, the prep work of gardening is done for you. Plant Package is delivered straight to your door with easy instructions on how to plant your fun new plant that even someone with a black thumb could execute! Plant Package selects durable seasonal plants, an appropriate and stylish container, sends just the right amount of soil and plant food, and includes instructions for assembly and plant care. The Plants can thrive indoors or outdoors – the choice is yours! Use the code “awesome” to receive a FREE Starter Kit with your order. Starter kits include gardening gloves, a gardening shovel, and farm hand’s soap. Simply select “ADD STARTER KIT” and enter the code AWESOME on the payment checkout page.  RESOURCES Need help building unity in your marriage? Snag our brand new resource Diary of An Awesome Marriage: The Couple’s Unity Building Journal today! This resource is a 23 page PDF, with 9 sections on common areas that marriages. Each section has questions for you to reflect on, pray about, answer, and then discuss with your spouse. Get closer by getting more unified on the things that matter! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim’s One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!  Dr. Kim’s new book, 14 Keys to Lasting Love, came out earlier this year. If you haven’t ordered your copy yet, what are you waiting for? Order here now.   

What does it look like to honor our marriage, protect our marriage, and still have honoring relationships with our brothers and sisters in Christ?  So many couples want to know what is okay and not okay when it comes to friendships with the opposite sex.  In this episode, Dr. Kim and Christina share about safe boundaries, why they are important, and how to implement them practically.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “Establishing boundaries with the opposite sex is one of the ways we accomplish the goal of having an awesome marriage.” - Dr. Kim “Having boundaries in place with the opposite sex protects you and your marriage.” - Dr. Kim “Never say you can't be tempted; we are all sinners and can be tempted.” - Dr. Kim “Boundaries aren't a lack of freedom; they're ensuring the safety of your marriage.” - Christina “You're not going to have a good marriage if you're only thinking about yourself.” - Christina “A good thing to ask yourself is, ‘Am I ok with my spouse seeing this text or email that I'm sending to someone of the opposite sex?'” - Dr. Kim “It's much easier to ignite a flame that's already been lit than to start a new fire; don't keep in touch with your ex boyfriends and girlfriends.” - Christina SPONSORS Thank you to Plant Package for sponsoring this podcast episode! With Plant Package, the prep work of gardening is done for you. Plant Package is delivered straight to your door with easy instructions on how to plant your fun new plant that even someone with a black thumb could execute! Plant Package selects durable seasonal plants, an appropriate and stylish container, sends just the right amount of soil and plant food, and includes instructions for assembly and plant care. The Plants can thrive indoors or outdoors – the choice is yours! Use the code “awesome” to receive a FREE Starter Kit with your order. Starter kits include gardening gloves, a gardening shovel, and farm hand's soap. Simply select “ADD STARTER KIT” and enter the code AWESOME on the payment checkout page.  RESOURCES Need help building unity in your marriage? Snag our brand new resource Diary of An Awesome Marriage: The Couple's Unity Building Journal today! This resource is a 23 page PDF, with 9 sections on common areas that marriages. Each section has questions for you to reflect on, pray about, answer, and then discuss with your spouse. Get closer by getting more unified on the things that matter! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim's One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!  Dr. Kim's new book, 14 Keys to Lasting Love, came out earlier this year. If you haven't ordered your copy yet, what are you waiting for? Order here now. 

What does it look like to honor our marriage, protect our marriage, and still have honoring relationships with our brothers and sisters in Christ?  So many couples want to know what is okay and not okay when it comes to friendships with the opposite sex.  In this episode, Dr. Kim and Christina share about safe boundaries, why they are important, and how to implement them practically.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “Establishing boundaries with the opposite sex is one of the ways we accomplish the goal of having an awesome marriage.” - Dr. Kim “Having boundaries in place with the opposite sex protects you and your marriage.” - Dr. Kim “Never say you can’t be tempted; we are all sinners and can be tempted.” - Dr. Kim “Boundaries aren’t a lack of freedom; they’re ensuring the safety of your marriage.” - Christina “You’re not going to have a good marriage if you’re only thinking about yourself.” - Christina “A good thing to ask yourself is, ‘Am I ok with my spouse seeing this text or email that I’m sending to someone of the opposite sex?’” - Dr. Kim “It’s much easier to ignite a flame that’s already been lit than to start a new fire; don’t keep in touch with your ex boyfriends and girlfriends.” - Christina SPONSORS Thank you to Plant Package for sponsoring this podcast episode! With Plant Package, the prep work of gardening is done for you. Plant Package is delivered straight to your door with easy instructions on how to plant your fun new plant that even someone with a black thumb could execute! Plant Package selects durable seasonal plants, an appropriate and stylish container, sends just the right amount of soil and plant food, and includes instructions for assembly and plant care. The Plants can thrive indoors or outdoors – the choice is yours! Use the code “awesome” to receive a FREE Starter Kit with your order. Starter kits include gardening gloves, a gardening shovel, and farm hand’s soap. Simply select “ADD STARTER KIT” and enter the code AWESOME on the payment checkout page.  RESOURCES Need help building unity in your marriage? Snag our brand new resource Diary of An Awesome Marriage: The Couple’s Unity Building Journal today! This resource is a 23 page PDF, with 9 sections on common areas that marriages. Each section has questions for you to reflect on, pray about, answer, and then discuss with your spouse. Get closer by getting more unified on the things that matter! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim’s One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!  Dr. Kim’s new book, 14 Keys to Lasting Love, came out earlier this year. If you haven’t ordered your copy yet, what are you waiting for? Order here now. 

Well we love it when you guys send it topics you want us to cover! One listener recently suggested we cover what it means to “come alongside your spouse.” It's something Dr. Kim says a lot, what does it practically mean? How would Dr. Kim define this method that he so often encourages us to do?  In this episode, Dr. Kim goes deep into describing it and defining it for us.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “Coming alongside your spouse is the visual representation of walking in unity together and supporting one another as a married couple.” - Christina “Coming alongside your spouse is the manifestation of being on the same team as your spouse.” - Dr. Kim “Something is wrong if you're in a marriage and you feel like you're all alone.” - Dr. Kim “How you come alongside your spouse might look different from how your spouse comes alongside you; we all receive love and support in different ways.” - Dr. Kim “Ask yourself: is what you're doing right now going to help you have an awesome marriage?” - Christina “If it's important to your spouse make it important for you.” - Dr. Kim “The worst loneliness is when you're in your house with your spouse and you feel lonely. You're not coming alongside each other in your marriage, you're just coexisting” - Dr. Kim “It's so important to have empathy in a marriage.” - Dr. Kim “We may not always understand why our spouse feels the way they do but we can accept that they are feeling that way and come alongside them.” - Dr. Kim “How you handle your differences in marriage will either draw you together or tear you apart.” - Dr. Kim SPONSORS Thank you to Plant Package for sponsoring this podcast episode! With Plant Package, the prep work of gardening is done for you. Plant Package is delivered straight to your door with easy instructions on how to plant your fun new plant that even someone with a black thumb could execute! Plant Package selects durable seasonal plants, an appropriate and stylish container, sends just the right amount of soil and plant food, and includes instructions for assembly and plant care. The Plants can thrive indoors or outdoors – the choice is yours! Use the code “awesome” to receive a FREE Starter Kit with your order. Starter kits include gardening gloves, a gardening shovel, and farm hand's soap. Simply select “ADD STARTER KIT” and enter the code AWESOME on the payment checkout page.  RESOURCES Need help building unity in your marriage? Snag our brand new resource Diary of An Awesome Marriage: The Couple's Unity Building Journal today! This resource is a 23 page PDF, with 9 sections on common areas that marriages. Each section has questions for you to reflect on, pray about, answer, and then discuss with your spouse. Get closer by getting more unified on the things that matter! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim's One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!  Dr. Kim's new book, 14 Keys to Lasting Love, came out earlier this year. If you haven't ordered your copy yet, what are you waiting for? Order here now.   

Well we love it when you guys send it topics you want us to cover! One listener recently suggested we cover what it means to “come alongside your spouse.” It’s something Dr. Kim says a lot, what does it practically mean? How would Dr. Kim define this method that he so often encourages us to do?  In this episode, Dr. Kim goes deep into describing it and defining it for us.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “Coming alongside your spouse is the visual representation of walking in unity together and supporting one another as a married couple.” - Christina “Coming alongside your spouse is the manifestation of being on the same team as your spouse.” - Dr. Kim “Something is wrong if you’re in a marriage and you feel like you’re all alone.” - Dr. Kim “How you come alongside your spouse might look different from how your spouse comes alongside you; we all receive love and support in different ways.” - Dr. Kim “Ask yourself: is what you’re doing right now going to help you have an awesome marriage?” - Christina “If it’s important to your spouse make it important for you.” - Dr. Kim “The worst loneliness is when you’re in your house with your spouse and you feel lonely. You’re not coming alongside each other in your marriage, you’re just coexisting” - Dr. Kim “It’s so important to have empathy in a marriage.” - Dr. Kim “We may not always understand why our spouse feels the way they do but we can accept that they are feeling that way and come alongside them.” - Dr. Kim “How you handle your differences in marriage will either draw you together or tear you apart.” - Dr. Kim SPONSORS Thank you to Plant Package for sponsoring this podcast episode! With Plant Package, the prep work of gardening is done for you. Plant Package is delivered straight to your door with easy instructions on how to plant your fun new plant that even someone with a black thumb could execute! Plant Package selects durable seasonal plants, an appropriate and stylish container, sends just the right amount of soil and plant food, and includes instructions for assembly and plant care. The Plants can thrive indoors or outdoors – the choice is yours! Use the code “awesome” to receive a FREE Starter Kit with your order. Starter kits include gardening gloves, a gardening shovel, and farm hand’s soap. Simply select “ADD STARTER KIT” and enter the code AWESOME on the payment checkout page.  RESOURCES Need help building unity in your marriage? Snag our brand new resource Diary of An Awesome Marriage: The Couple’s Unity Building Journal today! This resource is a 23 page PDF, with 9 sections on common areas that marriages. Each section has questions for you to reflect on, pray about, answer, and then discuss with your spouse. Get closer by getting more unified on the things that matter! Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim’s One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!  Dr. Kim’s new book, 14 Keys to Lasting Love, came out earlier this year. If you haven’t ordered your copy yet, what are you waiting for? Order here now.   

Whether it's an out right secret we don't tell our husbands intentionally or it's something we'd really like our husbands to know but we aren't brave enough to say it or maybe we don't know quite how to say it - many wives keep things from their husbands.  In this episode Dr. Kim and Christina share a dozen secrets wives don't tell their husbands. We polled you guys on Instagram to get your real and honest answers and today we are sharing those secrets (anonymously). Some of these secrets might surprise you and many of these secrets may feel like we are reading your diary - we aren't! You just aren't alone in your secrets! Tune in to find out what wives aren't telling their husbands!  RESOURCES Husbands - Snag the 21 Day Wife Appreciation Challenge here! This month's resource at Awesome Marriage is ‘Every Moment Scripture For Your Marriage.' This resource is a great way to speak God's truth into your marriage, even in the midst of difficulties. Every Moment Scripture For Your Marriage'  is a 13 page PDF, with 12 bible verse cards & 12 marriage encouragement cards to help you prepare and face the storms that come your way in your marriage. Grab your resource here! Thank you for making the ministry possible!  Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim's One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!  Dr. Kim's new book, 14 Keys to Lasting Love, came out earlier this year. If you haven't ordered your copy yet- what are you waiting for? Order here now.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “You may have to do some work on your marriage to get to where you're totally transparent with each other.” - Dr. Kim “It's our role as a husband to come alongside our wives.” - Dr. Kim “To the moms: it's ok to tell your husband when you need a break from the kids.” - Christina “Husbands have a huge role in helping their wives know they are beautiful.” - Dr. Kim “As a couple, commit to transparency and honesty with each other.” - Dr. Kim

Whether it’s an out right secret we don’t tell our husbands intentionally or it’s something we’d really like our husbands to know but we aren’t brave enough to say it or maybe we don’t know quite how to say it - many wives keep things from their husbands.  In this episode Dr. Kim and Christina share a dozen secrets wives don’t tell their husbands. We polled you guys on Instagram to get your real and honest answers and today we are sharing those secrets (anonymously). Some of these secrets might surprise you and many of these secrets may feel like we are reading your diary - we aren’t! You just aren’t alone in your secrets! Tune in to find out what wives aren’t telling their husbands!  RESOURCES Husbands - Snag the 21 Day Wife Appreciation Challenge here! This month’s resource at Awesome Marriage is ‘Every Moment Scripture For Your Marriage.’ This resource is a great way to speak God’s truth into your marriage, even in the midst of difficulties. Every Moment Scripture For Your Marriage’  is a 13 page PDF, with 12 bible verse cards & 12 marriage encouragement cards to help you prepare and face the storms that come your way in your marriage. Grab your resource here! Thank you for making the ministry possible!  Become a Marriage Changer and receive some sweet exclusive benefits. Learn more here! Sign up to get Dr. Kim’s One Thing To Grow Your Marriage Each Day via email, text, or podcast here!  Dr. Kim’s new book, 14 Keys to Lasting Love, came out earlier this year. If you haven’t ordered your copy yet- what are you waiting for? Order here now.  NOTEWORTHY QUOTES “You may have to do some work on your marriage to get to where you’re totally transparent with each other.” - Dr. Kim “It’s our role as a husband to come alongside our wives.” - Dr. Kim “To the moms: it’s ok to tell your husband when you need a break from the kids.” - Christina “Husbands have a huge role in helping their wives know they are beautiful.” - Dr. Kim “As a couple, commit to transparency and honesty with each other.” - Dr. Kim

New movie and TV deals are discussed with both Casey McQuiston’s Red, White & Royal Blue coming to Amazon and a Love, Simon series to the Disney+ streaming service. Jeff talks about seeing The Lightning Thief: The Percy Jackson Musical. New patrons Rhonda and Regi are welcomed. Will reviews the Netflix original Special. Jeff reviews Jay Bell’s Straight Boy. Jeff & Will discuss their trip to the LA Times Festival of Books. They also share the interviews they did at the festival with Julian Winters, Kim Fielding & Venona Keyes and S.A. Stovall. Julian talks about his upcoming book How to Be Remy Cameron. Kim discusses her Stars in Peril series and Venona also tells Jeff about her co-writing with Kim. S.A. gives the origin story of her Vice City series and how she uses caricature to encourage people to read the first chapter (she also did a super cute caricature of Jeff & Will). Complete shownotes for episode 185 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book review: Straight Boy by Jay Bell, narrated by Kirt Graves. Reviewed by Jeff. I went into Straight Boy without knowing much about it other than it was a young adult story involving Andrew, a gay high school student, who develops a crush on Carter, a straight (or maybe not-so-straight) boy. What made me buy the audiobook was the fact I’m a huge Jay Bell fan because of Something Like Summer and also for Kirt Graves’s narration. I knew these two together would give me a great read. And they did. With Something Like Summer and its sequels, Jay proved a master of telling a story with many characters and many plot lines that involve an array of emotions. He’s upped his game with Straight Boy. Two things happen right away–Andrew, a recent transplant to Chicago, discovers a boy who lives down the street having an argument with his parents and saying things like “I was born this way.” Andrew thinks he’s found a gay friend. The next day–his first day at his new school–Andrew comes out as he introduces himself in class. This makes him a target of the school bully, Bobby. Andrew goes off on Bobby, despite the bully’s threats and ends up getting sent to the guidance office. Here he meets Carter and discovers that’s the boy he heard arguing. Both of them end up in a special program at the school where learning happens outside a traditional classroom Andrew’s year is now set. Everyone–gay, straight or otherwise–inevitably has that phase where you want a romantic relationship that you can’t have. Andrew longs for Carter but also doesn’t want to wreck their friendship, which seems to grow stronger by the minute. The thing is, Carter seems to be a little experimental too and that only makes things more confusing for them both. In the hands of a lesser writer, this would end up a disaster on the page, but Jay deftly weaves the emotions and circumstances for both guys as they figure out the place they’ve got in each other’s lives as it evolves through the school year. I cheered for the good and wanted to protect them through the bad since my fifty-year-old self could vividly recall how confusing seventeen was. Bobby’s integrated deeply into their year too. He’s a friend of Carter’s and that mean’s Andrew is around Bobby far more than he likes–and he ends up putting up with more crap that he should. Andrew accepts dealing with that because he doesn’t want to lose Carter. It’s made even harder when Carter starts dating Bobby’s ex, Olivia. Along the way another of Bobby’s friends, Jackson, becomes tight with Andrew too, creating more bonds in the group. The evolution of Andrew and Jackson’s friendship is as interesting as Andrew and Carter’s. Things get rough in the last quarter of the book. Bobby doesn’t like the changes happening to his group and he plots revenge. I have to warn here that not only does bullying happen throughout the story at varying levels but as we get into the last act there’s also off-page sexual assault and a pretty epic final battle where Andrew, Carter and the group are in way over their heads. Again, Jay does an excellent job of telling the story, ratcheting tensions and putting characters–and readers–through the wringer. The epilogue was the icing on top of this cake. Jumping twenty years into the future, we find out where everyone ended up. There were some surprises here that made me go “awwww.” It provided the perfect ending. What this book excelled at was showing friendships up close–what makes them grow, what rips them apart, and most importantly, what can make a true friend for life. It also shows, perhaps too intensely for some readers, the lengths people can go to in order to protect a relationship even if it’s toxic. I can’t commend Jay enough for how well he did all of this. Kudos to Kirt Graves too. I know well from TJ Klune’s Green Creek series that Kirt can handle a large cast of characters and high emotional impact. Kirt is perfection here handling the emotional rollercoaster without sending it over the top. His performance adds perfectly to what Jay had on the page. I highly recommend Straight Boy by Jay Bell, just make sure you’re ready for the ride. Interview Transcript - Julian Winters, Kim Fielding & Venona Keyes, S.A. Stovall This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Interview with Julian Winters Jeff: We are at the LA Times Festival of Books with Julian Winters. Julian: Hi. Jeff: Who I’ve just had a major fanboy moment over. Julian: I had fanboy moments. Jeff: Okay. We kinda both had the fanboy moment. Julian: Yes, yes. It is equal. Jeff: Because I had to get him to sign my “Running with Lions.” Podcast listeners know that was one of my favorite books of last year. Julian: Thank you. Jeff: And you’ve got a little sneak peek… Julian: I do. Jeff: Right now of “How To Be Remy Cameron,” which comes out September 10th. Julian: Yes, yes. September 10th, yes. Jeff: Tell us what this is about. Julian: Remy is a very personal book. It’s about an out and proud teen in high school, who has always felt like he’s known himself until he has this AP lit course. And one of the final grades he has to write an essay about who am I and it’s like the make or break essay. He’s trying to get into Emory University, and he needs this course in order to get there. And so, he has this kind of panic mode of, “Okay, but who am I?” Because he’s always been defined by, “Oh, he’s the gay kid who came out at 14,” or, “Oh, he’s one of five black students that go to our school,” or “Oh, he’s the big brother to this character,” and he’s just all these labels he wears all the time. He’s, “This is who I am.” But then he starts to realize, “Is that all I am and do these labels really define exactly who Remy Cameron is?” So, it’s kinda an exploration of what labels mean to us, but it also has a great family dynamic. A couple of secret mystery parts I can’t tell you about but there’s a lot of guessing games going on in it. And of course, it wouldn’t be me if I didn’t have like a dorky romance in there. So, that’s in there too. Jeff: A dorky romance? I like that because that’s… Julian: Yes, that’s exactly what I promise you. It’s so geeky, it’s so dorky. Jeff: That’s kind of what “Lions” was as well for sure. That’s a good label for it. How would you say that your writing has evolved from first book to second? Julian: Oh, it’s a lot. A lot. With the first book, I just kinda wanted to write the feel-good story, and that was my goal, and touching on certain issues throughout the book. And it also was written in third person and “Remy’s” written in first person. I’ve never, not even when I was like a small child, wrote in first person. I love reading books like that, but I thought, I just can’t do that, it’s just too personal. And so, it was a challenge doing that, but it was a lot of fun. And “Remy,” like I said, it’s very personal, so exploring parts of myself and things that I see throughout, you know, our community and things like that. It really helped me grow as a writer to really say, Okay, you can challenge yourself and you can fail at it, but you can also improve. And that was great. So, to fail, I struggled so much in the beginning, but to have that under my belt now, it’s I think I could write a lot of different stories. Jeff: So, you think you’ll visit first again sometimes? Julian: Oh, yeah, yes, yes. The next book I’m working on, first might be where I’m stuck now. I think this might be my calling. I don’t know. Jeff: Okay. I could tell you, first is a nice place to be. Julian: Yeah, it is. Jeff: What are some elements of this book that are so personal to you? Julian: Growing up. So, I grew up in Upstate New York where I was one of five black students at my school. And then when we moved to Georgia, I was one of 400 that went to my school. So, it’s very personal in the sense of, I went through a lot of phases of am I too gay? Am I black enough? Am I too perfect as a friend? Am I good enough friend? A lot of things that I went through, Remy goes through in the book. It also explores my love for a lot of geeky things and how for a while I wouldn’t let that define me because I thought, “Oh, no, this is bad, people are gonna make fun of me.” And Remy goes through that because he had a lot of geeky moments, but it’s almost like he’s scared to show them now that he knows that these are the things that I’m defined by. Jeff: I love that you point out the geeky thing because I saw on your Instagram earlier today of the comic books that you read into here at the Festival. Julian: Listen, I almost had to leave, you know, our booth just to go, you know, bow down at the comic book booth and just say, “Listen, thank you. I love it.” Jeff: Now, let’s talk about “Lions” for a second because you’ve had an amazing year. I mean, you started out of the gate that the book was blurbed by Becky Albertalli. Julian: Yeah. Jeff: And now, just within the last week or two, you’ve won an award for it. So, tell us a little bit about that. Julian: It’s been a wild journey because, first of all, like, I never thought I’d meet Becky Albertalli, I never thought I’d talk to her, I never thought, you know, I would become friends with her. And then just meeting all the other people along the way that I’ve met and growing in that area… I always felt like I was the kid sitting at the table in the corner where I peek over at all the cool kids and say, “Yeah, I’m never sitting at that table,” but it’s been kinda really awesome being taken in by so many different people and I never thought I’d be an award-winning author. Like, I wanted to write the book for queer kids to enjoy, to see themselves and know that, you know, you’re not some other subcategory, you’re just a normal person. It’s just that…this is just a part of you, it doesn’t define you. And to win an award, I broke down crying. It wasn’t something I was expecting going into this because my journey has always been about the reader but to have something for myself was amazing. It still is amazing. I’m not over it. I guess I won’t be over it until I actually hold the award in my hands and say, “This happened.” Jeff: This actually happened. And the cover too, which was a stunning cover, also won. Julian: Yes, the cover won for best cover. And that was so great for me in the sense that I love our cover designer, C.B. Messer. She’s amazing. She reads all the books cover to cover. And so, she knows these characters, she knows their stories, and what she did with that cover just blew me away. What she did with the “Remy” cover, I’m still in complete awe of just how well she knows these characters. Jeff: When we talked back last year, the book had hardly been out. Julian: Yeah. Jeff: How’s the reader response been to it? Julian: It’s been amazing. Today just alone, just so many people will walk by and say, “Oh my gosh, ‘Running with Lions,’ I’ve heard of that book.” And I’m just like, “What? Of all the books that came out in 2018, you heard of that book?” The response has been amazing. Going to the events and having people walk up to me and say, “Thank you for writing this book because I played soccer all my life, but there was never a queer soccer book.” Or, “Thank you for writing this because there weren’t a lot of books with bisexual main characters, or characters that were gay and Muslim, or black characters, or whatever.” It’s been amazing, the response I get. I get teary-eyed every time. I’m like, “I’m not strong enough for this, we can’t talk about this.” But it’s also been so cool to know that I’m helping someone see themselves because I didn’t always get that opportunity growing up. So, to know I’m getting to be a part of their journey, it’s just been amazing. Jeff: Fantastic. And what have you thought of the fair, of the festival? Because it’s your first time up here. Julian: Yes, this is my first time here for the festival. And I was talking to another friend about it because I went to YALLWEST last year. YALLWEST is this…it’s nice little corner and then this is like a whole city. Like, I get lost every time I go either to the bathroom or get something to drink. But it’s amazing because it brings so many different publishers, so many different books together, so many different genres, so many different kinds of authors are here. And that’s the amazing part to me, just to know how influential books are because there are people everywhere all the time, stacks of books in their arms. And you don’t really get to see that in, like, media, like how impactful books are, how much people really enjoy the art that we put out there. So, this has just been amazing to watch how excited people get when they see the books. Jeff: Yeah, it’s been very cool here. So, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Julian: Thank you. You know, I love you guys. Jeff: Best of luck on “How To Be Remy Cameron,” coming out September 10th. Interview with Kim Fielding and Venona Keyes Jeff: We are at the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books with Kim Fielding and Venona Keyes. Thanks for being here. Kim: Thanks so much. Venona: Thanks for asking. Jeff: We’re excited to have you both here. And now, Kim, of course, within the past couple of weeks, we’ve raved about the “The Spy’s Love Song” and the new “Dreamspun Desires.” Where did the inspiration for this book come from? Because it was so good. Kim: I think a big part of the inspiration came from my travels in Eastern Europe. So, you know, thinking about the way things used to be in Eastern Europe and how things are changing, plus politics as they’re happening right now. And so, yeah, I think that was the main thing. Jeff: What kind of research did you have to do to develop your spy and your rock star who becomes kind of…along on this mission without even knowing he’s on it? Kim: I didn’t have to do too much research on the spy part or on the travel part, but rock stars and music is not something I know anything or have any talent or anything else about, so that was where I had to do most of my research because I don’t know what it’s like. I don’t know what it’s like to be a rock star. I can’t even sing. Jeff: Does that mean you what it’s like to be a spy? Kim: Hmm, I’m not…I can’t divulge. Venona: You have kids. Kim: Yeah, I have kids. Jeff: And you wrote song lyrics too? Kim: I did. Yeah, I know. And it was really fun. And then in the audio version, my narrator Drew Bacca sang them, which was so cool. And it’s like, this is the closest I’m ever gonna get to being a songwriter. And it’s so much fun to listen to. And I can pretend, you know, like, I’m the next thing. Jeff: Which actually raises the question, did you give him an idea of what the melody for it was or did he just kind of make that up? Kim: I had no melody in mind. I didn’t know he was gonna sing. When I write a book, I’m sorry narrators, I don’t think about what I’m doing to my narrators. And so, sometimes I torture them, and I wasn’t even thinking about a narrator singing it. So, that was his idea and I was so pleased. Jeff: And this is a little different in “Dreamspuns” as well and I noted it in my review that you are a single point of view here. Did you go into it deliberately that way or just kind of organically discovered it was the way to go? Kim: It made more sense for this book because there’s some surprises about our spy character and I think it’s a lot more fun if we kinda discover the surprises along with the other character rather than knowing right from the start. So, you know, for some books, the dual point of view works really well, but for this one, I think this works well. Jeff: Yeah, I totally agree on that. Now, this is part of a bigger series that’s happening within the “Dreamspuns.” Kim: It is. Jeff: Tell us a little bit about the series overall. Kim: Sure. So, this series is called “Stars from Peril” and this is the first book in it. The second book comes out next month, and that’s “Redesigning Landry Bishop.” And the third book, I just finished the first round of edits on. It’ll be out in October and that one is “Drawing the Prince.” We went over several titles on that one. And so, what all three of them have in common is the main characters are from the same small town in Nebraska called Peril, Nebraska. And all three main characters have made it big in some way. So, our first guy is a rock star, our second guy is kind of a Martha Stewart type, and the third guy is an artist. And so, they’ve made it big in the world and they meet someone. And so, you can read each of them as a standalone and in any order you want to, but you’ll kind of see the characters appearing a little bit in one another’s story. Jeff: It didn’t even click for me that it was the name of the town too because peril plays into their own peril. Kim: Exactly. And I honestly cheated a little bit on that. There is a real town, a tiny little town, I think there’s like 60 people in it, in Nebraska called Hazard, Nebraska. So, Peril. Jeff: Peril, Hazard, it works. Kim: And it’s a great name. Jeff: Now, people may be wondering, why do we have both of them here together? Well, Venona and Kim also co-write. Tell us about that book. Venona: “Running Blind.” I will tell you this came about some years ago in Portland at our Dreamspinner meetup and she pulls me aside. Now, you have to understand that I was such a fan of Kim. I love “Brute”, I loved all of her stuff. And then she’s talking to me and I’m like, “You sure you’re talking to me because, you know, I don’t, like, co-write. I’m really bad at, you know, doing it by myself.” And she goes, “Oh, yeah, I heard on NPR…” And that’s how it started. Because Peter Sagal who’s out of Chicago hosts, “Wait, wait, Don’t Tell Me.” He is a running guide for blind people for marathons.” So, she had the idea and we came up with “Running Blind.” Kim: And the reason why Venona was such a perfect choice is because, unlike me, she does triathlons. So, I didn’t have to do the research on marathon running. Venona: No, or running guides either. Stuff like, “Yeah. That’s your department,” I’m like, “All right, we can do this.” And it’s a wonderful book and we decided that we wanted to have a second story because in the beginning, and it’s not giving a spoiler away, is Kyle and Matt who have been friends, who went to college together, were friends, became lovers, and now they’re in a comfortable pattern, and they really love each other but as brothers rather than lovers. So, when something happens to Kyle, Kyle breaks it off and he goes, “You gotta go do stuff.” And Matt’s reluctant, but this story is about Kyle and how he deals with the things that have happened in his life. So, the next book that we’re writing, the working title is “Playing,” is Matt’s story about how he finds romance after the breakup. Jeff: And when do we get to see that one come out? TBD. Venona: TBD. Kim: Well, that one is still in progress. Venona: It’s still in progress. It’s now in my hands. And so, we switch back and forth when we write, and I need to get it back to Kim. So, hopefully soon. Jeff: And you’ve got some other co-writing coming too? You’re working with Shira Anthony as well. Venona: Shira Anthony, it is another story. It’s actually about a farmer and a city boy. So, that one is coming up soon and that’s an honor of a friend of ours from GRL. So, we’re writing a story about a farmer which he is and who’s not out and a city boy who is. So, it’s a lot of fun. We already have the outline and we’re just getting started on writing that as well too. Jeff: Very cool. Anything else coming up we should know about? Venona: Yes. “How to Become a K-pop Idol,” I am writing that one by myself. We might get a co-writer on that one, you never know. But that one is, if people aren’t familiar with this, I love Korean culture, a lot of Asian culture, Japanese, Korean. I’m learning Korean. I’ve been a K-pop fan since 2009 proudly with the Big Bang. Jeff: Before it was cool. Venona: Before it was cool. And my bias is right now, because Big Bang, if you don’t know in Korea, you have to go in for military service mandatory by the time you’re 30. So, a lot of the K-pop idols are going in. So, new ones are coming up. So, the third gens right now is BTS, if you’ve not heard of Bangtan Sonyeondan, BTS, they’re really big. They’re the band that I’m following right now. Jeff: Very cool. Anything coming up for you, Kim, a part from the Peril series? Kim: Yes, start of the Peril series at the end of this month, so April 30th. I’ve got a new novella coming out. So, if people who are following my “Bureau” series, there’ll be a new novella in that. And I wanna push that because I give all my royalties for that to Doctors Without Borders. So, this is the fourth story in that series, but you can read them as standalones too. Venona: And they’re awesome stories too, I love those. Kim: Thanks. Jeff: And what have you guys thought of the festival? Venona: You know, this is the first time I’ve been here, and it is awesome. There’s just so many people here, there’s so many different books, and you get to browse them all at the same time instead of in a little bookstore somewhere. So, yeah. Kim: And it’s been a lot of fun just kinda hanging out with everybody, LA is fun. So, it’s been a lot of fun. Jeff: Very cool. Well, thanks for hanging out with us for a few minutes. Kim: Thanks so much. Venona: Thanks for asking us. Interview with S.A. Stovall Jeff: And we’re at the LA Times Festival of Books with S.A. Stovall. Thanks so much for being here with us. S.A.: Well, thank you for having me. It’s super exciting. Jeff: Now, you’re the author of “Vice City,” it’s currently two books in the series. Tell us a little bit about what the series is? S.A.: It’s a crime thriller like a noir style. Ironically, if you’ve ever read “Sin City,” which is a graphic novel, it’s kind of similar to that. I used to work at a courthouse and I got a lot of green, was an attorney and all that. I don’t do that anymore because it’s a little depressing, but I used some of my experience in that to write the series. And I really like redemption stories and like criminals turning it around. That’s what I did in the courts is I helped a lot of drug addicts get to rehab and turn their life around. And so, I’m really into that kind of story. So, the series follows an ex-mobster who like, you know, leaves the mob and then becomes a private detective, and then, you know, shenanigans ensue. Jeff: Shenanigans ensue? S.A.: Yeah. Jeff: And he’s consistent through the series? S.A.: He’s the main viewpoint. There’s a romance a subplot in which he falls in love with like a police academy cadet, and obviously, that’s his in to the police and you know, again, more shenanigans ensue that way. In the sequel book that just came out, one of the subplots is that a police officer suspects the main character’s actual identity, that he had connections to the mob and used to be a mob enforcer. And so, he’s out to prove that it’s him. And so, you know, it’s a thriller story so it’s got lots of thrills. Jeff: Mystery, suspense, thrills, it’s all there. S.A.: Yes, exactly. Jeff: What got you into starting to write these books? S.A.: So, I had a friend who really likes Dreamspinner Press and I used to write just books like short stories for my D&D group, because they really liked, you know, fantasy, all that kind of stuff. So, I wrote short story fantasies and she was like, “My God, you should write me a Dreamspinner-style novel, like, that’s what you should write for me.” And I was like, “Okay, I don’t know if I can do it as good as all these other people, but I’ll try.” And I wrote “Vice City” for her specifically. I even put that in the dedication. I’m like, “It’s just for you.” I didn’t think that it would go anywhere because, you know, I was just like, “Okay.” But I got an agent after I wrote this and then the agent sold it to Dreamspinner and then they published it for the DSP line because that’s where they do genre stuff. Jeff: It doesn’t necessarily have the romance in it, right? S.A.: Yeah. Well, mine does but it’s not the focal point. The focal point is the, you know, mystery and the mobster story. So, I was very surprised. I didn’t think it would go anywhere but it totally went somewhere. So, every time somebody is like, “Oh, I don’t know if I should write a novel,” there’s a piece of me that’s like, “Man, I just wrote that novel willy-nilly. So, you should try, you should do it. You should try.” Now admittedly, you know, I was writing before I wrote this because I wrote other stories and short stories, but still, if you’re thinking about it, you should just do it, you know. Don’t even think to yourself, “Oh, nobody will read this,” because I kinda thought, “Nobody’s gonna read a crime noir.” You know what I’m saying? Like, I was like, “That’s old school, nobody reads that kind of stuff anymore.” But no, people do, and people like it. So, I was really happy. Jeff: And you noted that the second book just came out. Do you have plans for third? S.A.: Yeah. Jeff: What is yet to come? S.A.: I’m about halfway through the third book and it’s a true series in the sense that it could go for as long as I want it or, you know, that kind of thing. It’s not like a trilogy or a set thing like, “Oh, something needs to happen.” But, you know, as a private investigator, anything can happen, you know, all sorts of shenanigans can ensue. Jeff: Very true, very true. S.A.: But there is a connecting theme. The whole reason that it’s the vice enforcer is that the mob that he used to work for was the vice family, and they’re still around by book three so you can kinda see the, like, he’s trying to take them down one by one. And so, I guess I could be limited to and then it got the whole vice family and then the series is over. But, you know, there’s that connecting thread too. Jeff: Now, that you’ve been writing in this genre, do you wanna expand out to other genres or is noir thriller kind of your sweet spot? S.A.: Well, it’s just a thing that I like a lot, that I thought, you know, nobody likes this anymore, but I like it. I wrote “Modern Gladiator” which is just a pure romance for Dreamspinner. It was a sports romance with UFC fighter. Jeff: Oh, cool. S.A.: I, a few years back, was dating a guy who was in the UFC. And so, I just used all of that experience to write a sports romance. And I know a lot about, you know, wrestling and all that kind of stuff just from him. And I put a lot of that kind of information in the book and it literally just came out about two weeks ago. Yeah, “Modern Gladiator” came out. And then I do a lot of fantasy and science fiction on the side as well. So, I mean, all sorts of things, all crazy things. Jeff: Very cool. Now you’re also an artist? S.A.: Yes, that’s true. Jeff: While she’s been here doing her signings and such, she’s also been doing caricatures of people who get their book signed. And so, we had this one done of us. It is so freaking adorable. How did this get started for you? S.A.: I’ve just always drawn things. I like doodling. I was really into comic books at a point in my life. I mean, so many comic books and manga. I mean, anything that was drawn and kind of that like storybook style with the panel, super loved. But I didn’t really intend for it to go anywhere. I went and got my history degree, I got a law degree. I wasn’t like, “Man, I need to study art.” But I did at least doodle enough that I was like, “I’m mildly good, you know.” And when I went to my first ever book fair, I thought, “I can’t just be the schmoe who’s standing in a booth trying to peddle their book, because I’m gonna be like 50 other people in the road doing the exact same thing. I should try and do something that’s at least enticing or to get people to read my stuff.” And I figured, “Hey, I could try a little caricature, and while I’m drawing them, they can read my book. And if it’s enticing enough, you know, they’ll buy the book, or they’ll feel guilty enough to buy the book, you know, I don’t know, whatever gets them to buy the book.” And a lot of people usually give me comments right away. Like, the first line in “Vice City,” everybody always comments, well, not everybody but like 80% of people. The first line is, “Getting hit with a wrench hurts.” And, so many people either laugh or comment like, “Oh my God, what a good line,” and I’m like, “Yeah.” And the first chapter in “Vice City” is an interrogation of that police cadet. So, Pierce, the mobster, is interrogating this guy who he thinks is a police mole. So, it’s really intense, you know, high stakes going on. I really like that first chapter and it usually hooks people. So, they read that first chapter while I’m drawing them and, bam, that’s my sales strategy. Don’t steal it. I’m joking, everybody can use it. Jeff: It’s all her’s. S.A.: Anybody can do it. Jeff: But the key is, like, I could never draw. There’s no way I’d do this, I’d have to find another hook. S.A.: I’ve been successful with it. People typically like that. And the caricatures are free. I just give them to people. So, even if they don’t buy the book, you know, it’s fine. Jeff: And it’s awesome watching her do them. We watched as she did ours. It’s like, “Oh my God, there we are just manifesting on the page.” It was very cool. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with us a little bit. One last question, what have you thought of the fair? S.A.: It’s good. There are a lot of people here though. I mean, just thousands of people all over the place. Going to the food trucks was fun, although not during lunchtime. There’s like a mile-long line from here to the sun and back. Nobody wants to do that. But the food trucks are good, the people seem to be really nice, and I don’t know, it’s just a good time. Jeff: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us. S.A.: Thank you for having me again, like, super awesome.

A story of how a local Captain at the Montgomery County Sheriff's jail made a difference in the lives of those less advantaged and motivated other agencies and charities to participate. Here's the transcript. Interview with Captain Kim Haug Hugh: This is Hugh Ballou, and my guest for this session is Captain Kim Haug. I am at the Montgomery County Sheriff's department. I met Kim the other day, and I was quite impressed with the work she has done outside of her regular job, demonstrating how leaders can make a difference. Let's start with talking about what your job title is here. Kim: I am captain, but my job title is the Chief Correctional Officer of the Montgomery County Jail. Hugh: That's your work-work. But we are going to talk about what you have done outside your work. Do you have a title or description for that program we are going to talk about? Kim: The program that we have started is called Effort. It stands for Enabling Friends for Our Response Teams. Hugh: Enabling Friends for Our Response Teams. Clever. What was the situation that came up that was the inspiration to start this? Kim: We have a lady who works for the sheriff's office. She has a son who is autistic. She requested that we do something for the special needs community. She didn't give us a whole lot other than that. she just wanted us to do something with the special needs community, so that started some thoughts going and some programs. We started thinking of some things. We got together with a lot of people in the community and came up with the EFFORT program. Hugh: Whoa. So she came and talked to you about it. What was the problem you were addressing? Kim: She had had a couple bad experiences with her son. He is a teenager, and they live in a town. There had been a couple incidents with law enforcement. They were pretty scary for her. At one point, her son was not responding to a command, not because he didn't understand it, but because he was afraid. He had something in his hand that was like a comfort item, and the command was to put it down. He refused to do it. The situation started to escalate pretty quickly. She was concerned that maybe in the future, ash e got older, that situation could have gone really bad. She just wanted us to do something for the special needs community, including individuals with intellectual disabilities because she saw the need. Hugh: We read about things when they go bad with law enforcement. We want to balance it out with things that we do to prevent those situations. This is really important. what was next? How did you start this initiative? Kim: First, I approached the sheriff with the idea of having a fun day at the sheriff's department. I the nquickly realized that I was out of my element with the special needs community, that I needed some help and some guidance, as I didn't want to do anything wrong. I knew that I would have one chance at this. You mess this up, and that could be really bad. I invited a lo of people from the special needs community, from schools, the Special Olympics, DARS and IDA and some other agencies in our area that work with special needs, along with law enforcement and first responders. We had a big brainstorming session. I told them some ideas, what I would like to do. They were really excited about it. We went forward with it, but always with the guidance of the people in the special needs community already to make sure we did everything that was going to be helpful and right, and that we wouldn't do anything silly that would make the situation worse. Hugh: Our audience are people who are leaders in various types of organizations like those that you reached out to. What is DARS and IDA? Kim: DARS is the Department of Aging and Rehabilitative Services. What they do is they work with a lot of individuals who have special needs on assisting them and getting them employment. IDA is Individuals with Disabilities Association, and they do a lot of really neat programs for individuals with disabilities. Special Olympics, everyone knows what that is. We invited those people to come and guide us along. Hugh: One of the things that we highlight in our work is that leaders are first and foremost people with influence. You did not have any official relationship that you could say, “Do this.” You just influenced them because of your clarity of vision for this. Speak to that. They voluntarily stepped up, is what I am hearing. Kim: They did. When we met, I first shared with them what I wanted ot do and the purpose of what I wanted to do. I wanted to bridge that gap. I wanted to reach out to the special needs community because as I started this research, I found out that there wasn't a lot of trust between the individuals and the families of the individuals with special needs and law enforcement due to those bad experiences. I was just afraid that we wouldn't know how to handle it. I am not just talking about law enforcement, but fire and rescue as well. Those can be really scary situations for anyone, but you throw in the special needs aspect. Even a parent getting pulled over for a parcking ticket could be traumatic for somebody with autism. When you pull over behind that car with the lights and the siren. Car accidents. A fire in the home. We bring in an element that is unfamiliar and scary. What I wanted to do was on this day, make sure there were fire trucks and abumalcnes and police cars and officers in uniform and everybody was in uniform. The firemen were in uniform, the rescue people were in what they wear, and law enforcement was in uniform. They got to ineract with us on a fun level, and they got to learn about the jobs that we do. They did the obstacle course that the law enforcement officers do when we go to the academy. They got to use the fire hose. It was just incredible what the fire department did. They got to go into the back of an ambulance and see it. They had a photo with the cops, where they got their picture taken and got to take it home with them when they left the site. They got certificates and medals and awards for doing all the obstacle courses. What I wanted to do was like I said bridget that gap and show them that we are not scary, that we are not there to make a situation worse, but rather, make it better. Hugh: This is an activity, or is it housed under the sheriff's department or connected to any official entity? Kim: It's a program that the sheriff's office does. It's something that we do in partnership with all first responders in the county. Hugh: It's your baby? Kim: It's my baby. Hugh: We're talking in 2017 early in the year. How long has it been going? Kim: Last year was our pilot program. We did it in jUly of last year. We start meeting next week to start planning this year's EFFORT event. Hugh: What will you do to create sustainability and enable transitions as you bring on more programs nad need other leaders to take other parts? What will you do to introduce that sustainability with the transitions? People aren't goin to do it forever, so how do you bring on fresh people and have a rotation system? Kim: One of the things that we do throughout the year is we do training for the new officers who come in. one of the things we will definitely do is it's open to volunteers. Anyone can come and continue to go in the fire departments and rescue departments and provide training. Ongoing training bout the need that we have in our community that we need to be better trained to handle individuals with disabilities. We want those families to trust us on that level. What we will definitely be doing is the continuing training, which will be the key part of keeping this going. Hugh: Good. I see you going over and above the training because you have created and built on relationships. Kim: The other organizations that we have developed relationships with have been phenomenal. I have actually been relaly surprised at how important those connections with the DARS agency and the IDA and Special Olympics have been. We partner with them in some things, but it has been small. The partnership with them has been huge. We have used them for training purposes, and they have used us for training purposes on their side. But the partnership that the sheriff's office has wit hthese agencies now is phenomenal. I see that continuing to grow as well. Different programs will change throughout because we already have this established partnership. That will make transitions easier for programs in the future. Hugh: Good. One of the strong leadership principles I'm seeing is that you don't have to be the expert in everything. You are the visionary, and you brought in people with particular expertise to fill in those gaps. Kim: Yes. It was the smartest thing that I have learned to do. If you want to do something, you find the people who are really good at it and partner with them. Hugh: That's a key statement right there. Leaders are catalysts for some of the things to happen. What I am hearing is you were very clear on what the need was and what we can do about it. But you let other people play into the content and the methodologies and the process piece wit hexpertise. Part of what I wanted to highlight in this interview is we sometimes get in a vacuum with our churches, our charities, thinking, whether it's government or other, that we have to do it all. The key message I want to highlight here is this is a collaborative community effort. Kim: Correct. Hugh: Collaboration really enables us all to do a whole lot more. What are some of the results that you have seen so far? Kim: We extended our program to a degree by doing a GTO program, called Growth through Opportunity, which was really positive for the sheriff's office, and also for three individuals. Through the DARS relationships, we had three cadets come through a program through the sheriff's office called Grow Through Opportunity. We took in three cadets, all three with intellectual disabilities, and we spent four month with them where they came in and learned job skills and social skills through job coaches. The job coaches were the deputies. They would spend several hours a day with us, Monday through Thursday, and they graduated the program. The whole purpose of that was to get them job-ready. We went to different agencies throughout the county, other police agencies and the fire departments, and they would have work for them to do. Under the supervision of the job coach, they did jobs. These three individuals are actually out there interviewing for jobs now, aso they learned everything from eye contact to shaking hands to how to fill out applications to interacting with strangers and how to talk to business leaders when they go into the county. That was a pretty neat program. That is a huge thing that has come out of the EFFORT program and the training we have done. I have also seen the positive impact on the deputies who work here and the experiences they have had with individuals in the community. When they have had to go on calls and they have encountered someone with autism or another disability and their confidence on being able ot handle that better and knowing how, I have been trained on how to interact with somebody who is autistic, and they feel comfortable in doing that. Hugh: Something most of us don't even think about. As you are talking about the skills about eye contact and all of that, we could all use that, but that is giving people a leg up who might not have been taught that. Kim: Or it's more difficult for them due to their disability. It's harder for them to reach out and hsake someone's hand. They may know they are supposed to, but it's the reminder that they should be doing this. Hugh:That's huge. We want to reach out and do something for other people. What you said also is there is a change internally with people who are working with these people. Have you ahd any stories from any of your officers? Kim: I do. I had one deputy who called me after an interaction. The call was a teenager who was out of control. You never eally know, when you are going on those calls, what you are going to encounter. Are they just acting up, or are they really out of control? When he got there, he found out the young lady was autistic. He remembered his training, and you feel more confident knowing you know how to handle the situation the way it should be handled. He left the situation, and it was positive for the mother, the daughter, and the deputy. They have an ongoing relationship. We now know that if we are called to this house, that his young lady has autism, and we know some of her triggers, some of the things we can do or say to calm her down, and it is a positive all the way around. The flip side of it is we are better trained to handle these situations. The parents see us as somebody who is coming in to help and not make a situation worse. Hugh: What is your vision for the future? How do you see this going in the future? Do you see it growing or impacting different segments? Do you see it impacting more people without growing? What do you see? Kim: I definitely see it growing and impacting more people. I would love for this to grow into other counties. I would love to see other counties either come here for the training or open up their departments for the training, for the GTO program, or for something similar to EFFORT. I did have a lady from South Carolina call me and ask me how to do it because she wanted to do it there for her department. That was very encouraging, and that is what I would like to see continue. I would like to see all departments realize there is a whole segment of our community that we don't normally deal with unless it is an accident or something like that. it's not necessarily the criminal side of it, but there is a whole segment of our community that really desires to have a relationship with us and that we need to have that trust. They need to be able to trust us to handle that situation well. Hugh: There is a natural barrier between law enforcement and citizen. When you are on the street and see a police car, you slow down. We are always thinking about ourselves. What am I doing wrong? We are in a different mindset. What I am hearing you saying is you are bridging some of those gaps. Kim: Fighting crime is a huge part of what law enforcement does. We do enforce the laws of the land, the speed limits. We do have to interact in that way. That is not all that we do. We are here to serve the community. With Sheriff Pardon's vision for where he wants to take this department is definitely in that direction: being there for the community. We do have that one part of what we do, but it's only a part of what we do. It's not all of what we do. We serve the community, and there was a need in our community to connect with the special needs individuals. We are trying to bridge that gap and fulfill that need. Hugh: A person in your organization brought that need to your attention, and you paid attention. Why you? Why did you say, “I want to do this?” What was inside you that was the voice that said, “Kim, do this”? Kim: She came to me a few times. She was pretty persistent. Then I started to think about it. We had had a meeting at the beginning of the year with the sheriff, and he laid out his vision for the sheriff's office. It was definitely community-driven. That was at the forefront of my mind, that we were going in a different direction. But she came to me a few times. I know her son on a personal level. I have met him. I guess it just struck achord that we do need to do this. Why not me? Hugh: You don't know this, but I talk about leadership, and I summarize it in three things. Leaders get things done. Leaders figure out how things get done. That is the illusive part. Leaders influence others. I see all those traits. You didn't just say, “Oh, there's an idea.” You took action. So if there are people ou there that are hearing this story, what advice would you give people if they have got an idea? What is the leadership piece that you would enourage people to embrace to move on the idea? Kim: It's really hard to say because I feel like this is part of who I am. If there is a need, look for ways to address it. I have come across some things where I have handed them off. There is a need here. You look for ways that you can address it, and sometimes there are things that I can move forward with. Sometimes I see somebody who is better equipped to move forward with it, and you hadn it off. But you still want to follow through and make sure that need gets met. It doesn't take much. Get people around you who are experts and say, “Hey, this is a need. This is how I see we can fix it.” Then start getting some advice and some experts around you and a good team. You just get it done. Hugh: A good team. Well, this is inspirational. Thank you for spending time to share the story and your humility in getting out of the way and letting it happen. You brought people together around a vision, and you have been a catalyst for things to happen. I am sure you have been a cheerleader when things didn't quite go together at some point. We are in the sheriff's department and are watching sirens. That is the validation of where we are. Any other things you want to share before we end this story? Kim: Thank you so much for the opportunity to share it. If I can promote EFFORT, I am going to promote it any place that I can because I really think this is going to change lives. We got no negative feedback from the event, which was huge. This was a pilot event, and we stepped into uncharted territory for a law enforcement agency that we had never done before. We got no negative comments, and the only thing that I have gotten is I have gotten comments from other organizations and some individuals saying that they realy want to be a part of it he next time we do it. I have already ahd people calling me asking when we are going to start again. Hugh: The event happens once a year? Kim: Yes. Hugh: What time of year? Kim: After school. We did it in July this year. I think we are looking at the end of June this time. Hugh: What happens between events? I am sure there is some ramp-up time to the event. But does anything happen now for instance? Kim: WE are going to start meeting and planning the next event. We will be looking for donations. Everything was donated for the event pretty much. We had food donated, like a hot dog vendor, ice cream, drinks. We will start making the rounds and getting all those things lined up. We really won't change a lot. Other than changing maybe the layout of where people were, we had this at Christiansberg High School. Very few changes will be made. Between now and June, we will start getting our flyer ready, start making our contacts, start getting the word out. After June in the fall, we will look at doing the GTO program again. Hugh: I love it. It's a great story. I want to do a post-script for this and talk about leadership in general. Let's move in another direction. We are broadcasting this on YouTube, so it will be inspiring some other departments to want to call you. You will be teaching this to some others. You are also active in the community. You spoke to me about a leadership cohort that you get together with. Could you speak to me a little bit about that? Kim: WE do. It's called Project 14. It started at the beginning of last year with myself and Lieutenant Louie Hesslup. We started a leadership workshop where we met once a month and ahd a two-hour workshop. We invited indiviudals from the community, clergy, and other agiences of course to come. We would put together a two-hour workshop. Louie passed away in May, and now his wife is on board. We have changed the name to Project 14 because Louie's number is Unit 14. Once a month, typically the last Thursday of the month, for two hours, we have a leadership project. We have a leadership workshop. We invite speakers in, and it could be anyone from one of the departments. There is a group of us: Lieutenant Andy Wilgram from Bradford PD, Officer Heath Hyatt from Christiansberg PD, and Bryan Roe from Blacksford PD> we have some of the chiefs. Chief Wilson and Captain Ramsey from Christiansberg PD. Other people have come on board. We get together once a month, decide what our topic is going t obe. One of us will do the project, or we will bring in an outside speaker. We just do a leadership project once a month. That has been great collaboration with different departments and us working together in a different way. Hugh: What have you learned there that helps you in your job and helps you in your volunteer work with this project you talkd about? Kim: One of the great things about the leadership project is the different topics that have come in. we have covered everything from the Bernard Bershard and just preparing for some of the events has been pretty challenging, just getting all the departments nad law enforcement to want to attend something like that. the collaboration has been pretty impressive with the different departments walking together. Nobody is really in charge. It's here at the sheriff's office. It's kind of sponsored by the sheriff's office, but it' really a collaborative effort. It's that teamwork thing. It's getting people around you who know how to get things done or have expertise where you don't and then working together and putting on a good project. Hugh: Kim Haug, Captain, thank you for your service to the community and the impact that you make. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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